Episode Thirteen – Fernando is shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses

Episode 13 – Fernando Is Shunned By Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:13] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we get to hear stories from people that have been silenced by controlling religions. I have a bunch of things that I’d like to talk to you guys about today but I’m going to save most of it until after the interview. There have been some exciting happenings here in the land of the show. And I’d like to share them with you so be sure to listen all the way through the podcast and I’ve got some interesting things I’ll tell you at the end. Today we’re going to learn about Fernando and what it’s like to live in the cold of Jehovah’s Witnesses but we’re also going to learn what it’s like to grow up knowing that your sexuality is condemned by the very faith that you’ve you know held up on a pedestal and that has been your whole life. So let’s just go ahead dive right in and get to know Fernando. My name is Fernando. I’m 28 years old. I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and I am Sean. All right. So then Fernando How did you come to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the first place like were you exposed to it from birth or did you. Was there a certain age when maybe your parents started studying or something. I know when I was younger they they were studying to be Jehovah’s Witnesses. But as far as I can remember we were we were in the religion so I just hope I was born into it. Yeah I mean that makes sense especially if it’s at a young age. It doesn’t.

[00:01:43] You know there’s not much difference in being born technically born and if it’s all you really know the best way I say it’s like I don’t remember celebrating holidays. So I was born into it. Yeah that’s a pretty good way of delineating it. All right then well then how did your parents become Jehovah’s Witnesses. Well I’m not 100 percent sure on this answer. If it was my aunt or one of my uncles I introduced it to my dad. OK. She she lived in Mexico obviously when both of my parents came over from Mexico or back in the day. And so she had told my dad about this organization. And from what he would tell us he’d noticed the change in her and how she was behaving differently and he admired that from her. And so she has good luck to him. He at that time was here in the States my mom was still in Mexico and he started studying with a Jehovah’s Witness here. And so when she came over then she started studying with one. And that’s when they pass it along to their children at that point. Gotcha. That that story of a a spouse you know studying with Jehovah’s Witnesses and the changes that are seen in their life. You know that’s that’s one of the things they used to always say from the platform was you know if you had a quote unbelieving spouse you know maybe you could win them over just you know through your conduct and the changes in your life.

[00:03:24] So and you know it’s funny and I never thought about this and so now is like they always try to push the message on people when they’re preaching on people that are going through something they’re suffering from a situation in my parents case. I think it was a separation and the struggle of coming to a new country and trying to start from scratch. And I think that’s what they try to hold onto not hold on to but try to get to to them that hey we were preaching of a better life for you and your family you’ll be happy. So I just feel like they find those weaknesses and people are try to at least try to get to or get through to them with that. Well sure you don’t know how much they think that they not only target it but I think that people that have those vulnerabilities at whatever point in time they happen to run across a witness. I think that that that makes them vulnerable because because they are hurting. And maybe you know looking for something better. I mean let’s face it Jehovah’s Witnesses have a pretty good sales pitch. Yeah if you you know of course they don’t they don’t lead with the shunning but they they let you know you know if you come with us essentially you know your life will be better today because you know you’ll make all these changes and then you’re going to live forever in a paradise on earth. You’re going to see all dead relatives again. They’re going to come back. Everybody gets to be perfect. So you know when there’s a problem Perito Yeah it does sounds like a fairytale that people who are hurting are vulnerable fairytales and that makes sense.

[00:05:13] So then who were you you know as a kid. What did their religion mean to you as you started you know being exposed to it. Yeah. Well you know obviously growing up in there and like you said being taught that this is the best life you can have. I was completely convinced that we had the truth and growing up in a family that was very committed to the organization and serving Jehovah through this to this group. All we could do was devote our life all of our time and any decision that we made including myself as a kid you know obviously you have to be different. And so I had to sit people who are not in their organization that I was different and then bring up this you know tell them why. And that where they can join as well. So I was just completely convinced that we have the truth and that we were doing everything that we had to and that we had to get the message out. Yes so then what did what was the world view. How did you see the world around you. You know obviously you were different. That is a big thing for all of us. How did you see the world. What did it make you. How did it make you see the world. Well this is where I just think it’s fucked up because what I think we know looking back now what I thought about everybody was that everybody outside was helpless. They were in despair. And we had all the answers that they needed even though we were lying to ourselves.

[00:06:56] We didn’t have the answers that we needed at times but we had everything that they go through this organization. And they needed me to go tell them and after me trying to get to them or preaching to them and you know they decided not to go along with it or they weren’t interested. At that point the point of view of seeing them helpless and needing help turned to oh they’re evil. They must be some same people because they don’t want to hear the truth from God. And they had their opportunity. So that’s it. That was their chance going to be destroyed. And that’s it. They’re going to die. It’s fucking stupid and now that I think about it. And I say it out loud. But that’s that’s exactly what you’re taught. And so that’s what I always thought about people like oh I need to tell you what I have. And if you don’t agree with it that’s it. You’re a goner. Yeah. Fascinating how quick that supposed love you had for that person where you love him enough to bring something to better their life turns to almost a hatred it’s you know I love you. You said no. Well then screw you you know. Like die at Armageddon. You know how. How dare you divide the Word of God. Yeah. Yeah Jehovah brought me to you and you’re dumb enough not to listen. I mean it’s just it’s it’s so arrogant and it’s just so unloving toward the people that we were supposed to be showing love to. By going to their doors Yeah definitely. So then what was your childhood like. Let’s start at home.

[00:08:36] What was what was your childhood like there. Well you know I I always I like to think that I had a good childhood. You know we were always busy like I mentioned our growing up my dad was growing up in the rankings. Like I like to say in that organization he was a Ministerial Servant. My mom became a regular pioneer. He eventually became an elder. No I was still a kid and you know we were just always busy with that. But at the same time like I said I like to think it was a good childhood. But inside I always felt like I had to keep keep up maybe or keep proving myself that you know we are that good family in the church that we have to be even since being a kid my dad would tell us that you know we were the children of an elder and that everybody in the organization was watching how we were behaving. We had to be the example and how you know our actions as a family is also what helped him get to that position and sort of help them stay in that position. We have to continue this act of being a good family which I mean no no family is perfect. I can’t say that there is any crazy situations. Right. I mean it was just an act that we had to put forth. And so that was basically me I’m home as a kid was like OK what I have to do next to keep up with this is just exhausting as a kid. Yeah yeah. Say no pressure. Yeah.

[00:10:15] And the youngest youngest of three boys. So anything that they did and my older brothers that I had to do better more ten times harder I could see that I could definitely see that. Yeah I also kind of shows you you know from the beginning that is it’s all about appearances. Yeah everyone is watching you. You have to set the example. It’s just about what you put on on the outside. So then what about at school. You know how did how did people treat you at school or you know how did you feel at school. I know being a Jehovah’s Witness at school is not easy no definitely not. But like I said before you know I was comments I had a truce. So like I said we were taught to show that we were different so I tried. I tried to show that I was different. But at the same time I wouldn’t try the hardest at school. I know that they would tell us they’d like either books that they can see reading during lunch that they can ask questions about the book. I never did that. But I you know I definitely was kind of in my own zone at school. I tried to talk a little bit to everybody I knew that I couldn’t be friends with anybody at school so I never really tried to make any strong connections or friendships because we were allowed to have friends outside of the organization. And I would just try and I always honestly wouldn’t try to touch the subject of religion as much as I thought I had what was truth.

[00:11:48] I didn’t want to be pushed or pointed out at school for that I don’t know I just that when there’s a big twister because I was torn between wanting to be good and not being one like being the point or the subject of laughing or I don’t know the whole thing of being different than that your peers at school is definitely out. Anything that any kid wants or no nobody wants to stand up for the wrong reasons. Exactly. At the same time you know I had to explain to the people of death when they saw that I didn’t celebrate holidays because even from kindergarten or first grade you would have to leave during holiday projects or events. I would go to a library or if they had to color a snowman or Christmas stuff I had to color a racecar. And so it’s just like whole explaining to the kid that explaining to the teachers and some teachers not liking it. Some teachers being ok with it it’s a lot to deal as a kid. So again this is that whole thing of trying to keep up and being exhausted all the time. Yeah it is. It is a very tiring life to have to play this. It’s like you were given a role to play and you had to play that role everywhere you went regardless of how you felt about any of it. Exactly. So then what about at the Keenum Hall. How did that how did you feel at the Keenum Hall. Were you one of those kids who you know was all INSA given the talks and going out and service everything and knocking on doors or you know how did you feel about it.

[00:13:35] What was your progress like there. Well actually at first that was before the age of white taking on responsibility. Yeah I didn’t mind it at all. I did not mind it at all. I was like OK let’s go do this. But I always thought about it as a task like just get it over with. I wouldn’t I wouldn’t like be upset about going preaching and stuff. But at the same time I was always on edge. I remember as a kid hearing brothers giving talks about how our meetings were an oasis from the world and how that’s where we are after being exhausted. We go like retards spiritually and get ready for the next week or whatever. I never felt that I was always like well at school sometimes I feel like the kids were awesome and over here I feel like you guys are all either jerks or judging everybody but I always consider myself a spiritual kid and that was making good progress. And like I said this was like before getting baptized I guess because I got baptized 11. So I guess before that I was pretty good because I did not do much. But after that is where I was more on edge and I was more stressed out. I was even more exhausted or keeping up all these appearances basically because also inside I knew that I felt desperate that I didn’t agree with this but what else did you do at 11. So what then were you not agreeing with at the time.

[00:15:10] What were I always find it interesting to see what it is that you know makes you feel different about it. You know when they’re younger what was it for you well I just couldn’t even though I believe we did have the truth. I disagreed with the fact that we can’t be certain that everybody else is practicing religious religion just as zealous as we are that they’re wrong. I couldn’t believe that these people who are actually living decent lives and they’re not hurting anybody they’re not hurting themselves. There’s no way that God is going to destroy them. For them trying to worship God just the same way that we are. I never that never made sense to me. Like what if they’re reaching the same the same ending just a different path. Right. But there is no way. And based on what I saw it saw some of the kids were great and even like adults some adults were great. And sometimes I would hear even my family talking shit about other members of the organization like this is it a loving organization. It’s like remember one time at dinner they were talking I don’t remember who they were talking about but they were talking about a true family. And I think one of the kids was going through some hard time so there are obviously a lot of rumors that all the conversations that were happening and were talking so much shit. My older brother my middle brother she said What are you guys doing like at the dinner table. He said this is what we should be doing.

[00:16:45] However he came up to grub and be an elder so he just follow the same path it’s this whole thing of like judging other people and judging within the organization as well as like. So you’re telling me these people are outside of the organization are wrong. But people in the organization are also wrong sometimes. So how do we have the truth. Everybody’s wrong. Exactly. Nice. I guess we are the only perfect ones I guess are family but we’re not. That’s the biggest thing that stood out to me. This is like all the judging judging people within an hour. And that makes no sense. Yeah the judging is very serious. As Jehovah’s Witnesses we judged we judged everybody we judge everybody at the Kingdom Hall and like they would always have talks about watching our associations. And I remember when I was a kid that they would talk about it more. It seemed like at least to me more from the aspect of you said watch your associations with those on the outside of the organization. But as time went on it seemed like they got more and more to where they were like yeah yeah yeah it has to do with people on the outside but also we better we have to watch out even inside the congregation there could be ones who are bad associates and you just start getting to a point where you just can’t trust anybody actually. Who do I talk to. Yeah yeah just talk to yourself. But then again you can’t trust yourself because the hardest treacherous and who can know it’s so weak. So yeah they just get paranoid and every which way. So just read the Bible. Just read the Bible all the time well just read the Bible and read their publications that explain it.

[00:18:36] Yeah. So then so you say you got baptized at 11. Yeah. How did things I guess. Well I’ll ask you first you know how did things progress toward baptism like I guess why at 11 did you get baptized. Did you feel pressure or you know externally or internally. Yeah. Well you know like I said I was the youngest of three boys. I think my older brother got is 13. I think my other brother got back at 13 to 13 12 or something like that. And so after seeing them all think Oh man I’m getting left behind. And like I said it was like I wanted to be that spiritual kid that did better than my siblings and I had to prove that I was better. And you know they did. I don’t like to say that I was pressured into it but other kids my age were doing it and I was asked maybe three three times if I was thinking about it. So I mean I guess I was kind of pressured but I think it was more within myself of trying to keep up. Like I said before with the family right. That makes sense. Everybody was like already movin up I’m like oh man I’m still just the publisher. So let’s go ahead and do a lifetime commitment to love and let’s get in the water. So that’s that’s what happened and that’s what was on my mind when I decided to do that. Right.

[00:20:12] There’s you know there’s overt pressure which would be you know sometimes you know parents as I know parents have done this where they really do put pressure on the kid to get baptized constantly. Yeah and that’s awful. But there’s also this this covert pressure which is just this looming expectation. You know we all knew within us that especially as kids that at some point we’re going to have to do this thing we’re going to have to get baptized and then you start seeing other kids around your age or you know getting baptized maybe a little bit older or whatever but kind of start setting your own expectations too even if it’s not from the outside. You know if you if you hold off on the baptism it’s frowned upon too like there is this one girl at our Hall who I think it was already past like maybe even a month of high school and she hadn’t got baptized and things are said about her are so unfair. There is so firmly. No she’s not taking this lightly which is a good thing. Now that I think about it. But things that were said about her like oh why is she not getting baptized. I wonder what she’s doing at school. Or you know maybe her parents that didn’t have enough focus on her and her you know raising her or stuff like that. And that’s so unfair and so unfair about it now because she was I mean I don’t even know she gave out prizes and there are not. But I mean this is not a decision you take lightly. And obviously as 11 year old you don’t think about the consequences if you can’t stay within the organization because that’s one of my biggest regret. I would not have gotten baptized.

[00:22:00] I would definitely not and I would try to tell everybody else not to. Well until you’re older I really think the dark side of this decision is well sure that’s something that should not be allowed for kids do. And what’s crazy also is that Jehovah’s Witnesses bash Catholics for Baptists baptizing babies. Well how is this any different. Yeah. Children you know that have no real concept of the ramifications or the seriousness of it. Many of these people who are getting baptized are still playing with toys. So yeah Jesus didn’t get baptized till he was 30. But for some reason they have to push kids into it so to get them to keep the numbers up in the orientation. Got to get more members and ropa men. So then how. So after you got baptized how did things kind of progress. You know from there you’re 11. So how did things go from there as you went through you know your teenage years into young adulthood. Yeah. Well you know once I got into injured teenage years as soon as I could. Well my dad I guess I should admit that he was very active and helpful. And so my brothers were and Paul Bill. And so as soon as I could. I signed up. And here we were going to build almost every other weekend along with preaching and Family Study. And so we were always keeping up with that. We were on the landscaping crew which was hard work for like 13 14 year old kid. Yeah especially out here in Oklahoma and summertime it gets ridiculously hot.

[00:23:43] Also assemblies we volunteered to help with parking. We got there the day before for set up and clean up and we also helped during the whole thing to help with the cleaning. And so honestly I didn’t pay much attention to them because I didn’t have time because I was busy before during and after. Also as soon as I could I began auxiliary a pioneering auxillary really. I don’t know if I’m saying that right. I usually say that Spanish John Kerry pioneer Yeah. And so you know after that after a few months of doing that as soon as I could I became a regular pioneer and that was just a whole nother level of stress because you know we had to dedicate 75. It was when I became one 75 five 70 hours of preaching a month. Yeah they’ve changed it several times but it’s somewhere around there. Yeah. So you know now I was a pioneer at this time I think my brother was working on being a ministerial servant and my oldest brother was already one and my dad was the head elder of the congregation. And so at this time I also started thinking you know something is different about me. What what is making me feel different. And so you know the teenage years where you try. You kind of start discovering yourself a little bit more and so that’s when I started realizing you know why I’ve been feeling different all these years because I was gay. And so that added a whole another level of pressure. A whole nother level. Stress because obviously I knew that that was not acceptable.

[00:25:28] And so I think I was trying to push myself to do the most to counter that you know because I knew that I was doomed. Basically it is my waist because you know they say we don’t hate the gays but they can’t act on it or they can’t do anything else. Right. Right. You can you can you can have you can be gay you can’t act on yeah being gay or what you like. Like it’s OK to be it mentally but you can’t actually like ever express that in any way. Exactly. It’s really a mess. Yeah it is. And you know it’s the same thing about any other what they call sin like they hate us and they don’t hate the sinner basically right. But as soon as you commit the sender out like this I mean you are you are things that offend us and keep the elders right. Tell them what’s going on. But you know I always knew that I was like oh my gosh if I start talking about this to anybody you know within the congregation if you know something you’re supposed to confront the elders of your friends confess to something to you you know bring it up to them. Right. And so I was busting my ass trying to like make up for the fact that I knew that I was wrong on this aspect. But at the same time during my teenage years I did start watching porn. I discovered masturbation which was also things that are not allowed right. Every teenager does exactly. So I mean I came to the point where it was like OK let’s work even harder like double year.

[00:27:07] So then came along even preaching Saturday preaching. And I was I was I took middle school assignments. I took home school and school for high school and you know my parents gave me that option if I wanted to become a regular pioneer and that’s how that started. So I have really so. So they let you homeschool because you agreed to spend your time in the ministry. Yeah. Wow. Wow. And this was attending. Is was a bad school. It was one of the like drugs gangs. And you know that’s just the part of the city where we live and you know I really started seeing that in middle school. But I wanted out of there. I didn’t want to be there. And so I agreed to it. They wouldn’t take you out for your own safety or because you were exposed to bad things but only if you would agree to pioneer well that’s how it was presented to me. So I guess not. I just find that I just find that funny. You know it’s part of the witness way. It’s not a person. It’s about what the person does or whatever. So you know here you are their kid. And instead of taking you out because they’re concerned for your safety or even your your you know spirituality you know said air quotes spirituality because you’re so you know around these people who might be bad influences. They were more concerned that you spend more time knocking on doors for that organization than about her well-being. Exactly. And I think it was all about keeping up the appearance.

[00:28:46] Yes. Because I mean I guess they were getting to a point where we are all on the same page as family. We’re all working hard. We were all doing the most. So what can we do to send out even more. Yeah that’s how I felt about it. But once I started like into realizing I was gay and I started watching porn and discovering masturbation so I was doing that as well. You know I really started because there was always a conflict in my head. And you know I always felt like that I really fell into depression and I don’t know if I was just good at hiding it or everybody was good at ignoring it that it was never really had. Maybe a few times like Are you OK. That’s all I got. Yeah but also there’s no time there’s no time to ask because you’re always busy because lit the only night of the week that I have free was Thursday’s that was the only night that I had to up to do for myself. It felt like to me. Yeah. And so I don’t know if they’re I don’t know if they notice it or I don’t know. It crossed her mind or they’re just ignoring it to keep up appearances and accommodation but that that started to weigh down on me a lot in the teenage years.

[00:29:59] Well yeah I mean being a teenager is hard regardless of what’s going on in your life and then you know add add in something like you know being gay in the organization has to be has to be doubly hard because you know your sexuality isn’t something that you that you choose. You know I didn’t choose to be a heterosexual I just am but whatever you know it’s not. There’s no choice to be made there. And ans it’s such an integral part of who you are that you know to be told to feel like you did you probably didn’t just feel like something you were interested was wrong but that you were wrong. Yeah because it’s personal. It cuts closer than you know a person that’s I don’t know maybe as a little bit of a shoplifter or something like that that gets caught and gets disciplined in the congregation. You know they can stop shoplifting actually you know. But but this is this is personal. And so I’m sure that that added so much more pressure and then you know you’re in this family that’s you know you all we’re like I mean I don’t know your congregation but in any normal congregation you all would have been you know the superior family. You know that father the Pioneer Mother the kids that are all reaching out you’re doing all the things which is all they really care about is that you do all the things. Nobody nobody ever asks you in the organization who you really are as a person. They’re just concerned with what you do. And so that had to have just been tremendous pressure definitely. And it was an I never really thought about it because I knew no different until the teenage years. And so that’s that’s where I really like I said that’s when I noticed I started noticing. Right.

[00:32:15] And then like you said it sounds like you were kind of doubling down like you know. I know I’m doomed from a witness standpoint because I’m gay but maybe if I can do enough things in the organization. Did you think maybe like you could make up for it that way. Yeah yeah I sure did. I was like well you know maybe when God looks at my history they notice that I did a lot of things. OK. Right. Right. Hey look at least this guy has a good heart. He’s trying to do the right things. Yeah right. So then you know how did how did that progressed you know you did a homeschool thing. Did you how did life progressed after that. Well I mean it was well for. It took me years to finish by the way because it was hard it was hard than I am not one for education but I have also never thought too much of it. Sure. So that was put on the backburner for years until I finish it off later. But obviously we weren’t encouraged for college because it was frowned upon you know partially from my dad being an elder. Like oh we heard when somebody went to college from him. So I didn’t pursue any further education. I don’t know how it is in I don’t know if it’s like a Hispanic culture or an organization. I don’t know how it is. I didn’t know that it was different but you know you weren’t supposed to move out of your parents until you were intent to get married in a way just because they thought Oh here.

[00:33:58] So you know that’s easier for you to fall within say. That makes sense. I mean I don’t know Hispanic cultures typically the families are very close. Yeah. And so you know I didn’t move out. I obviously wasn’t thinking about getting married because I never thought about that as an option. Right. You know I was just very involved and I get busy. I get very busy in the organization at this point. I think maybe 19 or 20. Yes about 19 or 20. I think that’s when I was announced as a minister of as well. So I was a regular pioneer. I was a minister celebrant so and everybody else besides I was doing great. No I was active. I even went down to New Orleans to help with the Katrina you know rebuilding. Right. But as much as that that made me feel good. The Katrina rebuilding Glamis you’re doing some good. Sure. But I also didn’t feel content. I wasn’t full of this love and happiness that the organization promised and I think it was with the fact that I knew that I was wrong in their eyes for my sexuality. And so I didn’t know how to express myself. But in those days or so I really started working. I am an artist. So I do art on the side. And I really started doing some artwork. And now what I look back a lot of mine color is what I chose were black red and white and I have a bunch of pieces with these colors so I just started thinking of ways to get kind of express myself through that.

[00:35:54] And so for example one of them it was a face and there’s tape over the mouth and it’s so on. And there’s blood coming out of it. It was very dark and gory at the time. Right. But I didn’t even just over these to my family because of what the hell. What the hell. That’s almost so perfect representation of being shunned. It just struck me yeah yeah. And that one sold that one sold in California so it was their home. But I really started falling into my artwork. I was up till like I don’t know 2:00 in the morning several nights just working with my headphones on and just trying to get. I was looking for an outlet basically. So that was it. That was how I expressed myself when I couldn’t tell anybody how it’s really going. Yeah. Yeah I can I can I can see that as quite the expression you know whether it’s being shunned or being gay whatever it is that you can’t express that’s that’s really that’s really poignant. You mentioned I have to go back to something you mentioned you mentioned that you worked in the contract Katrina aid when you went down for that. I just have to ask did you did you ever. I don’t know if you ever knew who you were helping rebuild for or not. Did you ever work on anyone’s home or whatever that wasn’t a witness. No.

[00:37:18] There were eyewitnesses all the ones I know yeah they mentioned a story that they helped some person after they were done with the witness house but that was a one time thing that I heard about because obviously they only take care of their own right. And so I mean I don’t remember them saying that they help anybody else which they never have said but before. No they don’t. They don’t usually. Occasionally they’ll have an experience and in a magazine or something of where they may be you know it’ll be those who say like they helped somebody. Which kind of makes somebody on the outside some worldly person quote unquote and they’ll make it sound like they help lots of other people other than just witnesses. Yeah but they don’t they usually just there might be somebody who lived next door who just needed a small something or maybe somebody who has shown an interest in studying with the witnesses already. So maybe they’ll stop them and then they you know get baptized or something and then they’ll use that person as an experience or I wouldn’t put it past them just to make something up but because I know myself I was interviewed on stage at like circuit assemblies and stuff. And if if my story wasn’t sensational enough they would say Oh yeah they were pushing me to make things up. Yeah. They made me do that too because I was also interviewed several times. Oh and they just totally rearranged everything and took words out that you shouldn’t use this word like was not a bad word. Why do you want me to change my point of view. Right. And you know you obviously practice with the older or the whoever’s giving you the interview before the CEO comes.

[00:39:11] And then the circuit overseer comes in and you practice with them and then you practice you know on stage and he’s like you got to change everything. It’s like. All right tell me what to say. It interesting how many times should you have to practice telling the story you know that you know that last year I went back to attend Circuit Assembly here in Oklahoma. In English one. OK. And my boyfriend went with me and he was like why is she reading off a paper. They’re asking her for her experience where her interview is like why is she reading off a paper. And I had to wait and he was like well you can’t speak for yourself here. And you know I had to write it out. I didn’t want to say it out loud during the assembly and he just shot me a look like Yeah. Anything you say they tell you to say or they tell you how to say it even though it’s your story. I never really thought about that. That’s horrifying. Yeah. And then you know I might be jumping off a topic here but I never really I never really thought about it before you know because you don’t question. You don’t question. You’re not supposed to. Right. But that just when I told him that I was like fuck like I was never genuinely me. Nobody here is genuinely them right. They’re acting they’re saying they’re taught by what this organization is telling them.

[00:40:50] And the first time that I watched the Leah Remini Scientology thing show the first time I watched that we were on the couch watching this and I had a drink every time I watch the show I have a drinker like right now just next to me just got. But I was watching you know I like paused it and it would take him away. Oh man I was raised in the cold. I was like it had never never crossed my mind never crossed my mind that I was raised in a fucking court. And I told them was like you know they would always argue that because everything that they do is open to the public according to what they say. That’s how they fight that they’re not a cult. But the fact that you can’t look for information outside of their publications the fact that they’re hiding stuff from the members who probably have a good heart and think they’re doing the right thing. I’m. That’s a fucking cold. Ed my whole point of view changed because before that I felt very cautious about talking about it. Should organizations self. Yeah. And I always I always tell people they ask me I’m like oh no I had a good life. You know it just they don’t agree with us. I had to leave. But now I just sound like you know maybe I do think I like to believe that there are good people in that organization that believe that they’re doing the right thing because I was one of them. You know they’re sincere I said but the organization itself I’m like that that’s where it lies. Yeah that’s where it’s messed up and fucked up and it’s just I want info I want to go back and I just want to shake people.

[00:42:35] I just want to say people like fucking wake up. How do you not see this but I know I know. But we didn’t like it either. You know it’s so hard that I actually believe never. I can’t believe all the things that I that I overlooked and that I I just skirted right past me. It gets me mad with myself for not seeing it and that gets me mad for everybody else. It gets me and everybody else in house. It’s changing so much right now so I try to like keep up with what they’re saying because I want to know. Like people I know are thinking right and the way it has changed so much as I did reconnect with a friend who stopped going so they would be inactive right now. But you know we were talking about this thing like they’re kind of becoming mega church like they were very against. They would talk shit so much about like Life Church and stuff. I’m like OK they’re making their own music. They’re making their own move. We like little videos and movies and they’re going with everything all mine which other than them not have enough money for publications anymore because of others. You know whatever their cases. But they’re becoming a megachurch. And before they become a mega church they’re a mega cult. Like that’s a scary thought to think about. Well that is scary because you know I saw some of the new videos rather like you know instructions from the organization might not seem logical from a human standpoint but you must not question it. So you should be trained now not to question stuff.

[00:44:15] Yep what the hell is that leading to. They have a song called Listen obey and be blessed by one of the songs they sing. In fact I remember it being one of the I think it was maybe I don’t know. I mean I may totally be off base with this but I remember when we got the new songbook I think that really one of the first songs that we ever sang was Listen obey and be blessed. And I just remember as I was singing it thinking this is messed up. Yeah yeah I was still in but that there was something about that that just seemed really messed up and you know what else is fucked up. They preached that if you are in the world living outside the organization people will say that they’re unique in that clip for themselves but they really aren’t because they’re living by the devil rules right. So if you really want to prove a point and be unique you should be in this organization. You know what that’s like we just said they tell you to shut up and listen and don’t question. If you want to be unique. Come over here and look exactly like all the rest of the 8 million members all think alike act alike. Yeah. So then let’s let’s talk about how you got to that point. So. So you’re where we left. You are like 19 ish. Yeah about 19 right. So how did this you know. How did how did this transpire to where you know you go from 19 you know this young adult. You know how how did that play out.

[00:45:51] You know you know because right now at 19 you’re not just a witness you’re kind of like an uber witness. Here are extra special zealous witness. How do you how did you what was your path. From there well. Between 1921. I just continued with the whole the whole thing. Basically the whole show. Right. I just continued. Like later when I turn 21 that’s when I was introduced to alcohol which became my friend. At that time. You know so just between after that 19 agents continued with everything just kept going get my mouth shut. Basically I still live with my parents my older brothers. I think at the time by 21 they were already married. They were both already married. I believe I got that right this whole time frame like I think back now I can’t I can’t keep track of the years. I honestly like it was a bad joke. I was going to say how much of a friend was alcohol to you. Well I can’t remember it’s all fuzzy. No it’s not that. Like really like as a child like I just the whole experience of being in this organization. It’s one big long trip. No it is. It is. I was just teasing about that but like you were saying I know you were you were you were so incredibly busy and like you so. So there’s a movie. Don’t know if you know but there was a movie called Groundhog Day.

[00:47:33] And you know the premise premise of it essentially is that you wake up and every day is pretty much the same like you just keep eating the same day and as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses that’s almost what your life is like. Because every day you’re just doing these witness activities and you’re so busy that I mean what’s the difference between this Thursday and three Mondays ago. No not really. You know the faces stay the same the places stay the same. Nothing really changes that much. So it is hard to remember a lot of times what happened because it was just a big blur of the same. Yeah. You know that’s that’s hard to explain to people that have gone through that through this because I never really thought about that when to have mentioned that. Like out on my weeks with the same how much the separate them. Yeah I never thought about that until now. Yeah it kind of keeps you in a state of being numb. Yeah yeah that’s it. Yeah. It’s like either I talk here or talk there. You know taking the group out for service every weekend is the same thing. Yep you’re studying the same material over and over just a little bit differently you’re changing experiences. But yeah it is just the same stuff over and over it never changes. That’s funny. But getting back to your question you know yeah I turned 21 I started drinking quite heavily. Obviously people didn’t know or my parents didn’t know at least. Sure. I started to befriend people in the organization who are kind of on the same boat. And now that I look back I think that we just all didn’t agree with what the organization was teaching.

[00:49:29] And we found an outlet in alcohol that makes sense. Yes. No we’re not we were all together drinking we would have house parties and stuff. And yeah we did definitely overtreat when young and stupid or like normal people. Yeah I mean yeah exactly. But that’s I feel like that’s when I had the opportunity to kind of let my guard down a bit. Like when I can actually like some might be myself. I never came out to anybody in the organization as gay but if I had a question or I know jokingly would say oh that’s pretty funny that they’re teaching this or that like they just laugh it off. Right. So I think that that was just like a little outlet for us that we went through. And you know it was nice to have somebody there for that. It was a group of us that were there for this whole little you know time of the life that we were going through questioning stuff. But nice yeah. And those are probably some of the best times that I can think being in this organization. But it turned into some situations that just kinda turn into situations that eventually got to elders and it really just started a whole bunch of stuff because I don’t even know exactly what happened because honestly I would fall asleep a lot while drinking. So I don’t know if something had happened within the group. And so you know I was it was a sign that rigidness much but like I said it got to the elders and then the elders of certain people were all in different congregations. So it kind of spread.

[00:51:18] And it was several conversations that were involved. So the circuit overseer wasn’t Bob till apparently like he started jumping in for advice for the elders and stuff. Right. And so it really just stirred the pot and caused a lot of drama and they were in a way trying to protest against each other. Right. You know did they do this or do they do that. And my only answer this is when they sat me down the elder sat me down just like you know I was drinking I don’t know what they did. Here’s what I did. And that was always my answer because I was not one to throw somebody under the bus like that because one I honestly didn’t know what they were all doing and I’m not that person. So I to meet with them my judicial committee. I was announced as reapproved publicly. So from the stage obviously the let the conversation know that you fucked up but you should. You were right. I mean you know coming from this family that you know in a way I think we’re now the kind of royalty in the organization or the congregation. That was a big blow you know handle. Yeah. And so I was there when they announced me as reapproved because I had to be there from what they told me. And so I told you you had to be there yeah. They told me that I should attend and that would show even where repent was repentant of it. Gotcha. So you know that was humiliating you know hearing that from the states. How that impacts your family.

[00:52:59] Oh that was a whole another thing. You know they know hunkered down a bit a bit more. I was the only one there that they also knew that I was of age and we sat down and we talked about it my dad being an elder. He kind of was. Every time that I did something wrong it was kind of like he would slip was the role that we were talking from elder to Dad. Oh I know. Hard to know. Who I was talking to or what mode he was in. Right. But you know I came clean about the drinking. I did not come clean about the whole time I’m like watching porn and you know masturbating and all that stuff that I’m not supposed to be doing either. Right. So I did some a judicial committee about that though they asked me like 4000 times if there is more. Also I think at this time I mean I mean I was obviously sure that I was gay by you know they just basically sat me down let me know that I had another chance and that I shouldn’t waste it and that you know if it came down to me not being repentant you know I mean I had to leave. And so at this house was like where you know you know I was already public reapproved. We’re good. We’re on the same page. Let’s get better from here. And so I just want to know about anything else. Sure. Yeah.

[00:54:31] And so I did feel guilty as well because you know obviously we had all been working so hard for for this organization and I felt that and everybody you know I was still living under Medad house so I think he was actually removed as an elder for a few months because I was in his house. And if he can’t you know lead his own family how can he with a congregation if you can’t control every aspect of life at some within your house how awesomely lead the congregation. Exactly. And so I was good. I was good for a few months but then I started sneaking alcohol again. I actually got to the point where I had a bottle under my bed and they just didn’t know. But it was just that whole feeling of guilt and depression and you know being gay and knowing that that’s a whole other thing that’s going to be opened some day. And so I was like I kind of gave up in no way like the best Hung’s going to the meeting was like not having a responsibility not having to comment not to do anything. So I was OK with you know being reproved not being able to do anything. It was very different. It’s like a little vacation. Yeah it was. And you know like I said I started going back to my old ways for the drinking part. And obviously the porn as well. And I actually started sleeping around a few times just to see if I was gay. Coolac well how do I know I never tried any of this. Yeah yeah that’s got to go that’s that’s got to be harder on you internally too. Yeah.

[00:56:20] Yeah I’m the type of person that I’m not saying I’m this with that or I don’t like this without trying it or I’m going to test that out basically. Right. So I slept with women I slept with men and all that. Yeah yeah sure I’m gay Yeah that’s it. This is that. So you know I just it’s a whole double life that I was leading one of my family organization and one out of it though that added a whole other level of stress as I wasn’t being honest with anybody. Right. Those that got to react to them proving. So then how did that is that what eventually led you out or how did that how did that transpire. I mean from going from a person who’s under prove you know and already looked at a certain way. In other words you already got one strike against you. And then you know you’re going out and sleeping around and trying to trying to understand yourself. You know your own sexuality. How did that how did that eventually did that. Was that what led you out. You know I had always had that in the back of my mind that I had to get out that I couldn’t just keep up with this. But I wasn’t convinced at that point that I was doing it at that time. You know also I knew in the back of my mind. I have been living with my parents all these years. I don’t know how to adult. You know all a lot of jobs were part time jobs because I had to pioneer.

[00:57:59] And so I didn’t have the money at this point I don’t think I have my own car yet. So I was like I’m not ready to leave. And so I knew that that was was one of the deciding factors that I had to leave. But that wasn’t like the defining moment yet. That makes sense. Gotcha gotcha. So then how did that how did that transpire for you. Well you know like I said it was a lot of stuff going on at the same time which led to depression. And so there was a moment where my parents had to go out of town and I was just well it was one of those days where that depression hit me hard harder than any other day. I don’t remember why it was triggered but it got to the point where I was really really down on myself and I had drinking a lot and I actually attempted suicide. One night when I was alone I chugged a bottle and I took some some pills. I found that were prescribed to my mom. And so I just chugged a whole bunch. And at the time I had talked to I had already started talking to several people like I said I had been sleeping around and I had made some friends because I knew that if I left I needed somebody outside of this home. You have to have somebody to be there when you leave. Yeah yeah. And so I told these people is like hey I say I’m drunk. I sent them attacks. I think I sent two people text I think.

[00:59:32] And I don’t think I’m drunk and I just popped all these pills like so if you don’t hear from me that’s what’s happening. It’s just it’s just ridiculous. I can’t believe I did that. But. Well you obviously weren’t in your right frame of mind. Yeah. And so you know I did. I did wake up the next day they didn’t know where I lived. I never gave them my home because I didn’t live alone. So I wasn’t giving that to anybody. But they kept calling all night. But I did wake up the next day and even remember what time. But you know my body was hurting bad and I was like wow that was stupid. And that was the moment I was like I can’t be here before I get to this point again. So November of 2013 when that happened and that’s when I decided I had to get out the next day of that you know and I was kind of trying to prepare myself for moving out. I was starting to like look for people who needed a roommate. I was looking for a better job. I had my car at this point. Now so I had a car. I just needed somewhere to stay and I would also just always try to be telling myself you know it’s OK to leave. You have always question certain things. I’m just trying to like pretty much give myself a pep talk and telling myself you know this is why you’re leaving. It’s not just because you’re gay. Right.

[01:01:09] So I always thought about like you know the teachings about the 1914 forty thousand and obviously the points of view on homosexuality and blood transfusions which are the big ones and are starting and I suppose that you know we’ve never looked up information on this. I mean I’ve never looked up information on this just because we can’t look outside of what they’re giving us. So that was always in the back of my head too. At this point at least. But I knew that I knew that I shouldn’t look outside of their stuff so I never did. Sure. So you know this is just me trying to get ready to go and that didn’t happen until January 29th of 2014. A few days before that I had deleted almost I thought everybody from it I had a Facebook now very vocal because of the drinking. Yeah. It was not healthy. I don’t recommend it at all. You know shrug I’ll fight. Yeah. So I have made a Facebook post before that they say that I was gay and I had I didn’t have any friends but somebody I worked with saw it. One of my co-workers was also a Jehovah’s Witness and he showed it to him. So I didn’t really have much time to you know Don actually get ready and come out socially OK look I did the post. So numb to it. Get it over with. Yeah. And so one day I just didn’t go to work I had to work that morning at the coffee shop. I didn’t go to work. My parents had a meeting that night and I packed my car during the day. I know my dad was at work and my mom was in service.

[01:03:01] And so I packed my car that day and I just fit whatever I could I couldn’t hit my bed. So you know and I went to a restaurant and I was driving there from like I don’t know four till nine. I was just saying that rush hour is joining me Heppell Zano like myself up we can do this. We have to do this. You have good reasons for doing that. So let’s get it over with. So when they came out they hadn’t been back in the meeting yet so I went home. And my brother and my sister in law were living there at that time. My middle one them right yeah it was them. So I got home and you know they were waiting for me they had already known because the word spread fast and also. Yeah. So he texted me while I was at the restaurant he’s like So Hazans trolls like yeah it is. Was like whoa you know you need to talk to the elders. I was like I know like I know how this works. It’s so obvious. Yeah. And I think at this point he he was already an elder. My older brothers were already older at this time so I was the only one in the family that wasn’t doing anything spiritually like out of normal. Right. I wasn’t reproved anymore but I wasn’t pushing myself to do anything. So you know I get home and he’s asking me you know if I’m if I’m planning on leaving because he saw my car he saw my room that was empty. And I said well I don’t really have much of a choice you know.

[01:04:42] You know our dad’s going to respond. And so he’s like well make sure that you if you Julie to come back soon. And so we just hugged it out. My sister in law hugged me. And so I just waited in my room because I want to be in the living room with them. Obviously after that. But I just waited in my room and so my dad comes in from the meeting and he already knows what’s going on you. I think my brother called him and so actually I am when my mom comes in first. And she was devastated obviously. You know I was a baby. I was the one that is turning my back on the truth. And I was doing. So she just hugged me. We hugged for a long time. We both cried. And she just told me you know to come back soon as well because the end is near we know how that works. Yes been there for a long time. Yeah. And so here goes my dad. He sat me down or he sat down like in front of me and he started asking me questions and key even told me he’s like I’m not speaking to you as Dad I’m speaking to you as an elder and he said I need you to tell me what has happened. Have you acted on. And I was like well I will tell you that I have acted on things are all my you know sexuality and how they act on it and I’m not changing my mind on it. And you know how it is with the elders.

[01:06:15] I don’t know why but I think what. Oh I know. My dad was an elder. OK. OK. I don’t think I don’t remember he was not but you know he started asking me for a lot of details. Yes they always want all the details I’ve just heard so many stories about this and it was so comfortable and I was like I stopped them when he started asking me details and I said hey I don’t need to tell you details I’m telling you that I have acted on this what you call fornication has happened. I need to know. Yeah. I’m like you know I am gay. That’s right. I am and that’s not changing either. And he started lecturing me again on how you know this is the organization this is the truth and how you know God is a loving God and how I am disrespecting God. And he compared gay acts on demonic with demonic acts like it was the same as demonic acts and this and not and I stopped them again. I said OK do you want me to stay the night or do you give me until morning so I can leave. And so he just told me you have to the morning. And so that was the end of act. I did not want to go into details with him because I was obviously upset at this moment he was getting upset and he was I mean as a Jehovah’s Witness kid growing up with an older dad you don’t question anything you don’t say anything against. Right.

[01:07:45] So me telling him this to his face and telling him that I’m not changing he was getting really upset and I was getting upset and I was like we need us I need to stop the conversation before I get to a point where we’re both going to regret what we say. Yeah. And I just want to say I’m sorry. I’m just I’m sorry that your dad couldn’t be your dad in that conversation. You know he should have been. It’s just it’s indicative of what Jehovah’s Witnesses end up becoming. They play these roles and these roles become who they are. And he pretty much admitted as much to you by saying you know I’m not coming into this as your dad I’m coming into this as an elder. But but you deserved you deserved a dad than you deserve. Yeah. You didn’t deserve an elder in that situation. And I’m just sorry that you didn’t get that because that sucks. I was also expressed you know that and I agree I should not have. Yeah we all. We all have been there. And I mean I had it with my dad too. He played the role too at times or whatever but. Well actually I think that’s the only way he knew how to be. He didn’t know Dad really well. There had to be they’re going to be a dad. They have to be the dad that the organization was calling them right. And what better dad than an elder dad. I know. As a rule enforcer. Yeah for sure. So you know coming up the next morning I had my car parked and I knew that that night before the day before when I came out to them.

[01:09:30] I had been talking with somebody online about getting a room at his place but I wasn’t thinking right. End of February. And so I sent him a message and was like Hey so things have happened. And I told them what happened because I didn’t want him to think that I had to be like kicked out for some other reason and not in the room. Right. And so I thought I hate this and this happens. Is there any way that I can get in to the room now. Thankfully. Thank goodness. Think of the universe. He said yes like I had a room to stay in because I didn’t sing from Jehovah. Oh God shut your face. So you think gee I guess I don’t know. I don’t think. I just think the universe Webers out there great you’re out there. Right sure. Thankfully I got that I got I had a room to stay so I could move in that day. Then next day I was in between jobs and also thankfully that I was thankful that I got somebody to come help me get bad because I didn’t have a bed or I wouldn’t have had that I should say. So he had a truck and he helped me with that over but I mean I wasn’t at this moment I wasn’t proud of weaving. I was kind of more devastated like how can you get there. You know it’s tough. Yeah. And you know I did it breaking really. It is. It is. And I didn’t know how to adult.

[01:11:06] Like I said now in between jobs I didn’t know where I was going to come up with the money to pay for rent I started a job thankfully. And it’s been a great job. I work at a credit union and I’m still there today. I have I worked hard. Coming in I think I have to make this work I guess is it and you know it’s been that’s been that’s been great my friend one of my friends that I made outside of the organization got me the job and he knew them at the time to he. And so already I had already been seeing people from the world treating me better than the people from the organization had. Isn’t that amazing. You know and it’s just that kind of confirmed my decision. And I kept calling myself as like Hey you can be yourself. And that’s another thing I didn’t know what to do with my time. I had all this free time and I was like I would be at the meeting I’d be studying for the meeting I’d be preaching what do I do. So I didn’t know what to do with worthwhile. No I knew how to grocery shop. Thank goodness I know how to do laundry but like for bills I thought the rent was owed at the. I think what it is. And I don’t know why I thought it was like out in the middle of the month or something was like laid on my rent like look or I’ve never done this I never paid rent like so I’m embroidering things so it was just a wake up call.

[01:12:47] I was like How is this ok for me not to know this and not be topless like that’s not right. Yeah. You had no preparation for life you were just prepared to be a good job. Was that was it. Yep. And so that was just a big wakeup call. You know thankfully I’ve learned sometimes by bad mistakes. But I look and I’m good. I feel a lot better about myself now. You know also within two years I think I moved like six times because I couldn’t find a stable place. So you know I’m just thankful that I had somewhere to say you know I did like two months in one places without a bed. It was also the struggle till the straw one at this time. I was also in the mindset of everything they said I couldn’t do I’m going to do it 10 times harder. So nothing I help either. No it makes sense. And they set you up for that to some extent. They tell you that the people who leave you know go off and you know do all these things or whatever you know they kind of like set up this self-fulfilling prophecy to some extent yeah. And then you kind of feel like well if I leave then either a I might as well do whatever the heck I want any time. Because I mean I’m doomed anyway or whatever depending on how you feel at the time. Yeah. Or be apparently everybody in the outside the organization just acts in whatever way they want. And so I’m going to have to at least match that so I fit in. Because again. Yeah.

[01:14:35] Nobody wants to be different. Exactly. And you know speaking of like those that forecasting that they give about your life is going to be after you leave. Right. My dad did say that he was like you know a lot of Weisler for older homosexuals is AIDS that living alone and depressed. I mean and I never told my parents that I was depressed in the house. I never told them about that attempted suicide Tuesday. They don’t know. And just because I that’s probably when I felt most vulnerable. No not that I’m looking for that was when I was most disappointed with myself that I let myself get to that point. And I didn’t want to show him weakness. I don’t want to show them weakness. I don’t want them to be right and I’m always that person that’s going to try to prove me wrong. Right. Or if you tell me I can’t do something I’m going to show you how hard I can do something. Yeah. So that was how my whole mindset and I’m not that intense. Now with that kind of sound like a crazy person back then I said How loud. But no. To be honest the way you’re what you’re discussing it right now is kind of hit me because I kind of struggled with the the intensity of being told you know like here’s what you know here’s what you can do and here’s what you can’t do. You know I wanted to prove them wrong. Really bad. I just I think it is always kind of felt that way anyway.

[01:16:17] I never really had the I guess the opportunity to do a lot of things. But yeah there’s definitely there’s definitely something there as you’re talking about it it’s just striking me that they really I know I just have to think about that more. They really do a number on you as far as the way they they they treat you and the way that they limit you. Yeah it’s and like you said right when they tell you that your life is going to be this. Yeah there’s just still trying to control your life. Now Muli or so I was set on I’m going to do what they think I’m doing or experiment with it just like them say I’ve done it from Tom had this. And at the end of the day I know I’m fine. Right. And so you know I did a lot of experimenting sexually and a lot of intermittent drinking. Right. I eventually got to experiment a little bit with drugs which I was very timid about and I don’t recommend it for anybody. But I did. I did. And you know I didn’t fall into a cycle of like abusing any substances. You know I did drink a lot. You know still to that day. And I I I honestly wasn’t happy just because everybody that I knew wouldn’t talk to me. And that’s also one thing that’s hard to explain to people who have been through this like you were born to this everybody you knew growing up. It’s like they’re strangers. No no no it’s not. They’re strangers. It’s like they died or you died. It’s worse that because. Yeah.

[01:18:09] Because because you know that they’re there right. You know this is by choice. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s why I fight like even find art to explain the great now. I don’t know how to describe that feeling. It is. It is hard. And these are natural relationships. And so you know you’ll see somebody on Facebook or something that will post something about about how much they missed their mom and their mom died like 30 years ago. You know and it’s like yeah and like there’s a an innate need to have your parents the most humans have. I’m sure there may be some who somehow psychologically don’t have that need. But I think most people have that need to have their family to have you know those those roots the people that you grew up with are your roots. And to have all of that ripped away it is indescribable. Yeah that’s not something that a person who has not undergone that I don’t think can understand it’s like every let’s say everyone you know is on a bus and that bus just went off a cliff. Yeah and one shot everyone was gone. How would you feel. You know you would just be honestly it would be too big to even comprehend for most people. Yeah. And yet that is what shunning is like it’s like everyone you ever knew. Went off the cliff in that bus but then there’s like this weird thing where it’s almost like oh you know psych. It was a prank they didn’t really go off the edge of the cliff. They just drove off in that bus and left you.

[01:19:59] Yeah. You know it’s I don’t know. It’s really hard. It’s a mind fuck. It really is. It is. And you know like you said it you you have all your life before and you have all these years of you know your route to getting stronger and. And you have this you know you know where you come from. You know why you are this way because you were influenced by this person as a kid or I have this characteristic of my mom or this of my dad. Right. But in one day that’s on. All these years all these years of all this connecting and these relationships one one fucking day it’s gone. Yeah. So you’re left in limbo in a way like OK so what where my bike where’s my foundation. So and. And I I honestly when I came out I talked to a lot of the older older people from the gay community. And every one of them every single one of them told me this. You have to make your own. You decide your own family is and it’s not just blood family. Argosy it’s like people who push you. People who make you better people who are there to listen to you. And so like I said I had already several friends that have you know close to but I definitely needed more than you know. Like everybody that you had and so it’s just basically starting starting anew. Whether you like it or not that’s what it comes down to. Right. And you and you can replace the people in that you can get more people.

[01:21:45] You can never replace the family the family or whatever you just can’t you can’t find whatever that that voodoo is the family really has that that connection. There’s something that you know you’re going to have in a family that you can’t just usually find anywhere. And I’ll say I’m starting to realize that I’m I’m I’m having myself and my wife and I’ve been out now just over two years. Yeah. I’ll say that we are starting to have experiences with people that every once in a while we’ll be somewhere with a group of people. I don’t know playing games or just doing whatever and it just kind of feels like home. Yeah. And I think that’s what we’re all missing is home because home was taken away and I don’t know exactly how you define home but yeah maybe it’s different for different people but yeah home home is gone and it’s kind of indescribable. But everybody knows what home means exactly. And I think it’s just that feeling and the Bond family. Yeah. And you know I have met someone. Well I guess I’m getting ahead of myself. KIRBY That’s a question coming up. I think I did hold up all that well look at a question if you are just a conversation you can go ahead. No I was going to say you know like you mentioned it is it’s something that I feel like myself. I’ve been out for years now. So yeah for a year. And so I keep having the urge to meet people and making more connections.

[01:23:47] Yeah I am mesmerized by people and their stories and I’m always open to like I don’t know how to describe this I guess. I keep looking for connections. Like we said before like trying to replace but as much as you try to. Like you said there’s something about family that you can’t write. It’s kind of like if you’re running on a treadmill to get to your butt you’re in your mind your mind trying to get to the finish line but you’re on a treadmill is like as much as you’re doing you’re making good progress. It’s getting you nowhere to hide. And I say that out loud because I don’t like giving. I honestly don’t like giving my family or this organization any power. No and I will never shall. I try not to show weakness to any of them. But it’s not weakness. It’s just reality. Yeah. And I know that that’s what it is. But in my head I know it’s hard to think of it you know. But I don’t know. I’ve done a lot of research on you on Friends on people trying to make friends later in life and things like that. And a lot of the research really kind of seemed to show that you know when you’re young that’s when you form those bonds that typically kind of more are going to be the ones that last forever because you have the time to do so because you’re young and you have nothing else to do. You know or because you share a lot of experiences like you’re in school with people and you’re literally there every day or with family you know you’re coming home to the same house every day.

[01:25:40] You’re you know watching the same shows you’re doing the same activities. So you know later in life it’s hard to form relationships that can match. I don’t know the intensity or whatever of those early relationships not just because they were during your formative years but also because they were during years where you know you didn’t have a mortgage to pay and a family of maybe of your own and just other things that you have to do in life and then as adults we’re all busy and we’re all doing our own thing. Yeah. And so it’s just hard to get back to that place because that was a special time in your life that you just you can’t get again. That but it doesn’t. But it also doesn’t mean that you can’t find meaningful friendships and you know have a wonderful life. And let’s face it a lot of the people we grew up with weren’t the best and were pretty toxic anyway. So you know that’s sometimes because you grow up around those people you have these ties and connections to people that are actually pretty toxic and not not really very healthy. And sometimes shunning actually or having to leave them behind can be a little bit of a blessing. Yeah I agree. I agree with that just it’s just not easy. Yeah. All right well then. So back to your story then. Yes you are.

[01:27:17] You are saying that you know so you were leaving you had left your parents house and everything and you had said you know told your dad about and everyone knew that you were gay and that you had actually acted on your sexuality. So then were you did they call you to a judicial meeting. Or what did they do with you. Well that that’s a whole thing to I forgot about that. So yeah I I pretty much blew people off when I left the next day I didn’t text friends or people that I was really close to and I let them know why I left or why I had to leave. I know Hey I just came out as gay you know. I know what that means. But if you don’t want it to mean that let me know. So I did text that to several people. And you know same response from everyone’s like you know we just you know how it is you know that we serve God and you need to come back and things will be how it was. Bubble level baso. I only did that for a few though so once I started working at this credit union and so one of the elders they were trying to call me. The elders were trying to call me but I didn’t want to to them at one point when I guess they found out where I lived my parents didn’t know where I lived. I didn’t tell them since I felt like they didn’t need to. The ones are kicking you out. They left a sticky note on my car. I woke up in the morning going and you know getting ready for work and going into work and an elder have left sticking around the car asking for me to call him and I was creeped out. I mean how do they know.

[01:29:19] You know they obviously. So I was creeped out I blew it off I threw it away as whatever. I’m not talking to them. They don’t deserve. They don’t deserve my explanation. Sure. So you know the weeks went on. Well one time coming out of work we closed and we have security guard and two of us me and then a girl that worked with me. And I was walking out from the back where recently deal and my car are three elders and this is for anyone who’s listening who thinks all know that’s real. Like they do this stuff they go like stalk you and hunt you down if they want to. Yeah I was mad I was sad I didn’t know what to do or say. So the security guard did with me. He’s like they don’t like Friends. So he walked with me and the girl that I worked with. She turned her car on and faced us like she was in her car chasing us. She’s like she told me I will run them over if I need to because she knew she knew about that whole story right. So she was in her car and the security was with me and they talked to me like you know we really we really want you to come talk to us you know think about what you do into your family with you leaving. And I said I’m worried because if I did I piko somehow and I didn’t want to leave it that way with them either. So I was like OK OK.

[01:31:01] Well we will you meet with us on Tuesday and this day I was like Okay sure I’ll be there. So that was the end of that. They left in their cars and so I just went home. I was pissed. I was I was furious. Emily how dare you just do that. So I did it. I typed up a letter and I in the letter explained that my dad isn’t elder. So I had already talked to an elder. He talked to me as an elder in his own words and that I don’t talk to other elders about it. And I said it just to make things clear when you invite people to your organization you tell them to write their churches a letter saying that you’re not going to be a part of that church anymore you’re going to be part of a part of this organization. I said well here’s my letter to you that I no longer want to be in the organization and I don’t owe you any explanations. And so I said I dropped that off in their mailbox and I found out that two weeks later with her now because I don’t interrupt me as soon as possible so I don’t want to leave any doubt. And so they are not. Two weeks later from what I heard and that was the end of that that that was the that’s what sealed the deal. So you went the disassociation route.

[01:32:23] So did my wife and I I understand because otherwise you end up you end up having to play that game with them where you know if it wasn’t a judicial committee they would have just kept stalking you and things like that is just you know it’s one of those things that that shows that they are a colt is the the difficulty that there is in leaving. You can’t just walk away. Yeah. Yeah I mean some some people can walk away. Not one I remember. Right. Right. It’s a lot harder. You know there are there are fortunate people out there that are able to do that maybe have good relationships with their family or whatever that are able to tread that line. But yeah it’s it’s not always that easy. Yeah. In fact it often isn’t. And even if you do fade a lot of times there’s a lot of games you have to play to to keep up appearances so that so that you can keep your family so that you can talk to someone that you care about or whatever. So yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s an ugly thing. So after you disassociated what did you do. Did you just go on with your life. Did you ever hear from any of these people again or. Well you know I just I try to focus on myself. After that I mean all my life I couldn’t that’s selfish and that should be your focus. So I just focused on myself. I wanted to do better. I wanted to learn how to undo everything I need to do and be responsible. Yeah. I had my first holidays with my friends family which was mesmerizing to me. What did you celebrate. What was your first holiday. My first holiday I think was Halloween fun and so we got to do a whole face painting and everything.

[01:34:27] And then after that was Thanksgiving and Christmas. So that was just a whole new world for me. And they couldn’t believe that I had never done any of that. And I didn’t know what to do I would. What what was routine here like when the alter ego. Oh yeah. What’s the protocol here. How do we know whether what do I do. And I don’t know what to do. It was just for me but you know I get out of people. The only one that tried to reach out I think was me. I’m trying to remember who. If anybody tried to reach out to me. But ok. Yeah there was one girl. There was one girl who was close to her and her husband. And they sent me a message and they just told me they didn’t where had happened yet. Like they didn’t know details and they said that you know if I needed anything to let them know that they still love me and that you know obviously if I want to come back that would be the best thing to do. I don’t think you know the story so I told them and they didn’t respond anymore. So that was it. So I mean I tried to reach out to my brothers out then Metaxa in there. My middle brother like maybe a month later it wasn’t like anything personal. It was like hey guys how this document because I mean I didn’t take anything with me. I didn’t have my birth certificate. I didn’t have some other stuff I left at home. Right.

[01:36:11] And so I don’t even know if I have my birth certificate or any. Anyway just like stuff like that and I was asking him about a cellphone I have appearance on his cell phone. And I was paying for them and I couldn’t afford it anymore because of him. Obviously I had to do everything else on my own now. And so he’s like OK that’s fine. He said no. Just stop texting me. And he said you know you need to stop sending messages because you are out. And you know how this works. But this is necessary family business right. Yes. I mean I also. Yeah but it’s only necessarily a family business if they want something. Exactly. And so I was pissed. I got a new number. I didn’t have anybody’s number. So like fuck all. Yeah. So however I did send a few messages here and there to my oldest brother and he lives in a different state. And so I would just send them messages like hey is everybody OK. And the whole way that that started was because he asked a cousin of mine for my number because he had an accident at work and he wanted to let me know. So he sent me a text letting him letting me know that he had this accident at work and so I was just happy to hear something. I started to get as you know I got a gift card for him to send to them because him and his wife are in the hospital so that they might need something to eat.

[01:37:47] You know it’s not much that I have it here it is. And you know I had already done all this and I said I’m going to send somebody Deegan’s in your address. He said Well I don’t want anything from you. I said it’s nothing personal like nothing about religion. I said it’s just some money in case you need something at the hospital and then he said no no don’t you understand I really don’t want anything from you. I said why then why did you fucking text me. Yeah. And he said Well you know I just thought that you should know. I said well why should I know if I can do anything. And he said OK well that wasn’t my mistake I guess I shouldn’t have told you and so I was pissed off at that too. Obviously I had already done getting this fucking card of the money that I really couldn’t afford. What I was doing anyway. And he comes up with shit and so we left it at that. They he had called me before that too several months before that because I think I had forgotten to pay and didn’t forget I was behind one car payment for one month and I was waiting for my next paycheck to pay it. Well I guess the credit union had that loan I guess had contacted my dad because he was a I know just to see if he were going to make payments. Oh yeah. Well he called me for that and he told me hey you need to pay your. OK I’ll get it done this Friday. So we I had his number.

[01:39:19] His is the only number I still currently have and I try to send them a message from time to time. Just asking because I have middays. I’m like How do I know everybody’s good. Are they fine. Like my in-laws like my all my family my my grandparents are still living. Our job is one as well. I have a lot of aunts and uncles and so I just I would send a message like hey is anybody OK. And he would just say yes or yeah it’s fine. So I have that communication and that was that was enough for me like that’s fine. But then he stopped responding and it was after I was at the convention where they were talking about how Chunying is important. Yes. Last year or something they had a video and they basically said that the water. Yeah if you even answer the phone you’re giving them enough to where they know they won’t come back. Exactly right. So he stopped responding of course. And so I obviously come that very irritating because now I don’t have a way to know if they’re good or not. Right. And so I sent them a picture because I now have a boyfriend a partner. We’ve been together since 2013. Congratulations. Thank you. First up kids you know three girls and a boy. Oh yeah. I saw them picture last and the kids saying Hey since we’re not talking this is my family and we’re going to get married some day. And I wanted you to know so I said on that I never heard back from that either.

[01:41:11] And then I always have like some random dreams sometimes and makes me over think everything. And so I had a crazy dream that something had happened to them. So I send a message just like hey that’s where my she gets. And he didn’t respond. So I was irritated so I sent him a link to a news report of the four dollars a day that the organizations paid to not give up these files. And so I was on the fence about sending get but at the same time think they’re already treating me like an apostate let’s do it. So I said that’s a. And I said Hey I just want to show you this. This is not apostate information. I said this is a news report about this organization that you are a part of. And where do you think the 4000 dollars are coming from. And why would they not releasing these file and I sent that him. And I didn’t get a response from that either but I mean I was the only connection we had for just last year. Sure. Just to give a little for anyone who’s listening who doesn’t know because I know not everyone is an ex witness the what he’s talking about is there’s a court case in San Diego where there was a person who was sexually abused in the congregation. And essentially it’s the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses the court and they long story short refused to get well they gave up documents that were ordered by the court to turn over but they redacted pretty much any relevant information on it. They they blacked out basically the names of anyone in these files.

[01:43:03] So that’s essentially the information that they turned over was useless. The court got mad at Jehovah’s Witnesses as an organization told them that they had to turn over those documents with less redaction. So they were actually usable and the organization refused to the tune of the court fining them four thousand dollars per day for every day that they refused to turn over those files and in fact I believe that court case just settled and they did not well I guess they probably paid the 4000 dollars a day. But it was just in the settlements. So like. So they paid it. But no you know settlements are usually undisclosed. And you keep it all under wraps. But that’s that’s what’s being referred to here. Jehovah’s Witnesses will do anything to protect their appearance and that includes redacting the names of people who might be in fact they even have an internal database of suspected pedophiles that they refused to turn over. So so so that’s what Fernando here was sharing with his dad and of course his dad’s not going to want to hear any of that. Because actually I said that’s my brother. I don’t have that number. Oh ok my bad impersonator. Yeah they’re not going to want to know that because they don’t they’re just not they’re not. They claim to have the truth but they’re not interested in the truth. So it just is what it is. And they have a lot to lose if their eyes are open so it’s scary for them. So so then it sounds like you haven’t really spoken to anybody you know any any meaningful conversation with anybody. No no nothing. Hannah sounds.

[01:45:03] That’s that’s the norm. Yeah. No. Was it last year at the end of last year. I did try to reach out to friends or people I was really close to. I sent them a letter and I sent them a message on social media. Just let them know that I know. Not trying to convince him to get out. I am but I just told them you know hey guys everyone talk or I need something or is that I honestly feel like some people are trapped and I don’t know you know because I was I felt trapped. But I did. I’m like hey if you guys ever want to talk let me know if you guys want to hang out let me know if you need somewhere to stay for any reason. Let me know that you have somewhere to be. But you know I didn’t hear back from them or anything but I like to like how is that out there now. But other than that I haven’t had communication with anybody other friends or family. Yeah that’s the extent of shunning. I mean that’s that’s that’s what they do. Well let me ask you them were whether. So like you left you know being gay was a big part of the reason that you left. Yeah. What about. Where are you. Or was there anything that maybe you freed yourself mentally already some what has helped you you know after leaving.

[01:46:40] Were there any books or podcasts that helped you or were there any lessons you learned something that that maybe helped open your eyes to the realities of what was going on there. You know because there are a lot of people that are disfellowshipped for you know issues regarding conduct. Who then still though kind of believe they have the truth as your witnesses and that they just aren’t good enough for it or whatever. Where are you in that process and has there been anything that helped you through that. Honestly for for podcasting like books. I really don’t have anything particularly that help me. I think what woke me up was just an obviously true time. Not right off the bat by seeing saying that people were good. Like just seeing that there is kindness like obviously there’s bad people everywhere. I mean we all know that. But just seeing that there’s good hearted people who are more than willing to be there for you right who you do not have the strong relationship that you had with everybody else in the past. But they are there and they are willing to help. They’re willing to come together for something better than themselves or you know to better you that that’s him he was an eye opener because we were taught people were evil and they were out for themselves. And that’s just not the case. And really we were in the organization that was evil and out for itself. Yeah exactly. And so just seeing that and get to know people and hearing their stories and sharing my story that’s what made me realize I hate this was never that true right. We were completely wrong. That’s beautiful yeah. Just just the basic standpoint of you know just good general humanity. Yeah.

[01:48:49] Seeing the kindness and love in the world looking for the beauty in it there is a lot out there and we were given a much different version than that. So like. Right. Right away. That shows you were lied to. Yeah exactly. Well is there anything you would like people that have never been a witness to know about the religion that you had and are ready. I mean stay away. No. It’s I think of it as a trial in a way and I want people to know that like obviously I don’t want people to be rude to any witness that comes knocking on your door and it’s like hey get on my property like if you want to hear them or hear them out that’s fine but just know it it’s kind of a trap. They’re going to find your weakness and they’re gonna. That’s how they planned their preaching to you. You know like when I was in charge of getting the group out and service and field service. I would always you know mention this example and you try to find out what the trigger could be from the person. I would always recommend using the subject of resurrection just because who hasn’t suffered the loss of a loved one. Right. That in itself when I realized when I was out that I was doing that that I was fighting these people the people’s weakness for where they’re most vulnerable at work and we send our message to them that it’s going to get to them. That’s that’s so manipulative and I want people to know that they’re going to try to do that to you.

[01:50:42] They’re going to try to find a weakness and then later when you realize what it actually is. And if you know obviously if you don’t get brainwashed in the process but if you are open enough to see what it is you’re going to be trapped you’re going to be stuck in a situation you don’t want to. So you know stay away. I don’t know. I mean that’s I think that’s very good advice for anybody. What about your family of friends if you could say anything to them. Is there anything that you would say. Yeah. I mean I would definitely ask my family if they’re happy. I want to ask them if they’re happy with what they’re doing. You know if they’re treating me like I don’t exist is freeing them the content that they need spiritually like are they completely happy with their spirituality at this point. Or to my friends I would ask them what did I do to you. Like we have history. I know stuff about you that could get you out but I’m not doing the you know Mike. We all have sinned. It’s just different things. So I mean what was your bases on shunning me for doing something wrong in your eyes. Isn’t that a fascinating point. Because the they essentially Heavens if they believe in God and everything they have inserted themselves between you and God if you messed up instead of that being between you and God it’s between you and them. Exactly. There are intersecting there. You know interjecting themselves in the middle of that and that’s that’s just not fair. Yeah.

[01:52:41] Rick Scott but that’s how it is for them. Yeah it is well what’s something that you’ve learned since you’ve left that that’s really impacted your life for the better. Got any any good advice you’ve been given or or as you’ve learned to to do some adult thing. Honestly I tried to take myself too seriously I am very. We like to think that I’m very I don’t know I don’t brush things off but I try not to dwell on things as much as I used to. Just because going through the whole process and you know dwelling and everything bad that that brings you down and I’ve been at the lowest. So I don’t want ever to be I don’t want to ever be there again. So I always try to think OK so this is happening. It sucks. Is it the worst thing that’s happened. No. What can we do to make it better. You know so just trying to do better. I’m trying to better looking at the bright side of things obviously not to the point where I am overlooking the bad cause you have to acknowledge that there is bad and there’s still going to be bad situation. Yeah if you don’t acknowledge it you can’t. Yeah better. Yeah and that’s it. Like how am I going to make it better. And right now I’m at the point where like I said before I’m at the point where I’m open and we will talk about Jehovah’s Witnesses because before it wouldn’t even mention their name because I didn’t want people in family of them honestly. Yeah. So it’s a big step for you. Yeah definitely.

[01:54:26] And you know I’ve gotten my story out there. I with my Arrakis I do shows and I do sales. But I started the last year as well. You know portion of myself goes to a nonprofit organization here in Oklahoma City that’s called Three mom hugs. And this is for the LGBTQ community who don’t have a place to live because they’re kicked out or they don’t have family and they’re struggling to help some aid with like mental help and coughing mom hugs because a mom who is doing this organization. Her name is Sarah and she. She struggled with her side. Who came out as gay and they were really religious as well. I forget what religion they were and it all went to say the wrong one. She struggled and she just thought he was doomed. She thought he was going to hell. And she struggled for years about it until she came to terms that this is just what I was taught. This is not what it is. And so she wrote a book about this whole story and this whole journey. And she started this organization to help other mothers you know be there for their kids and if not for them to become mothers to kids that don’t have they are people that don’t have families. And so I’m at that point right now where I want to do more. I want to do more. I want to get back.

[01:55:57] And what better way to do that than with my art which is something that I am already passionate about and I think that’s where I’m at right now and my journey like what can I do to do what can I do to show my appreciation for all the people that I’ve met and have helped me. But how can I be that person for somebody else. And that’s beautiful. And that organization you say is called Free. Mom hugs. That is awesome. Yeah. That is that’s quite a story she has there. But but like you said it really hit me was just about how you see things now for I mean you know you’re not blind to the problems in life but when you see them you try to make them better. And I know when you’re in a Colts you know what is going to make things better is whatever promise whatever carrot they’re dangling. That is what will make things better. They don’t they don’t encourage you to really do a lot of self reflection and make your life better. They want you to to chase after whatever care they have for you so that they are the people who can make your life better if you continue to follow them. Yeah. And so I just think that is a beautiful lesson too to see that really you know this life is yours it’s not it doesn’t belong to somebody else and it’s up to you to determine the quality of that life and what you know the trajectory of it is and like you said it’s like your own life. You choose where to go with it where when I first left I didn’t know what to do with myself with that time.

[01:57:43] So now I don’t have enough time now I’m busy all the time which is great because I did I did like that part of the organization where I felt like I was helping somebody yeah. When I honestly thought we were but now I feel like I’m helping like I’m I’m preaching or in their way I’m spreading the truth which is being yourself. Do you don’t with that. Yeah no. That’s great. So then you’ve touched on it somber. So what do you enjoy about your new life. Well definitely all my family right now my kids my boyfriend. They bring so much joy for no damn reason sometimes they’re just sitting there watching TV and it’s like the best moment but I’m definitely that’s one of the biggest things I enjoy. I have some amazing amazing friends amazing support team. If I have a problem their group message or a phone call away and we will get together get it make it better. And that applies both ways. If they see something where their and I love trying new things whether that be new food which I eat too much. But I love trying new things going new places. Now that I can you know because before I even make a concert it wasn’t to be frowned upon. But the judges the elders like my dad would be like well what’s around that like what is crunchers known for sure you know drugs and this not so that’s another thing I’m falling in love and live music. I think it’s one of the best things in life. I I just like experiencing and that’s when I’m enjoying the most that I have the opportunity to do that now aren’t you glad that you didn’t put off experiencing life.

[01:59:49] And still you know something that was promised and held out by an organization like Jehovah’s witnesses you know. Yeah. I think that’s awesome you know you’re young you’ve got so much life ahead of you. You’ve you’ve got the whole world really is open to you and it’s just so awesome. You know that you’ve you’ve got know family now literally. And you know this is your family you’ve chosen and you’ve got friends that you know are there for you. You’ve got these experiences to have. I mean that sounds like a beautiful life that you’re living Yeah. Is there anything that you that you dream for is there. Is there anything that you kind of want for the future. Yeah and I I obviously want to expand more of my art. That’s always been my dream as a kid. I want to have my own studio. I want to have my own shows and you know that’s one of my biggest you know goals that I’ve had and I’m working on it. It’s just a lot of work. But that’s one of the things that I’m working on that’s one of my dreams to have my own little space to have people share not just what they’re making but I want to know why they’re making it and I want it to I want them to share so that everybody else can learn from what they are what they’ve gone through because that’s how I felt about my life. I feel like I share it. Like if you have a question for me I will tell you what happened and just because everybody can learn from everybody else.

[02:01:36] And if we just saw come sharing you know our stories and our past there is no way that you cannot benefit from that. And I haven’t said it’s like life is a canvas and everybody you adds another layer of pain that makes that beautiful masterpiece. So I want to keep sharing my story. I want people to share their story. I look forward to growing old too watching my kids grow up. I dream of being on the porch with my boyfriend were old and just having a drink and yelling at kids that sit on the grass. I have I mean out I hope I dream that someday I might talk to someone in my family. I mean I haven’t taken that completely out of my head. I want to leave that as a possibility even though it doesn’t look that way. But that would be wonderful. But the most obliges I plan on living my life as authentic as I can and I’m very very upfront. I don’t like if you like my friends or family friend opinion they know it’s going to be straight up. It’s going to be that and I also dream of one day being straight up with my family and just letting them know that they’re in the wrong and that they’re blinded. I hope that happens someday. I really do how the two men I want that for all of us I want you know I wish we could all get our families to see that. Yeah it’s tough but man that’s a that’s a beautiful picture you just painted for us all. Yeah I think I think that you’ve expressed it. So beautifully.

[02:03:31] I love that what you said about life being like this canvas and every person that you meet you know puts down that next layer of paint. And and you know at the end you have this masterpiece that’s beautiful. I’m really glad you expressed it in that way. That’s a really cool way of looking at life. I think that takes care of the questions that I had you know pretty much put down but I wanted to ask you something. You said you were talking about. Well how we learn from one another and there’s something you said earlier about the gay community and how you’ve talked to some of the older ones and it’s an you know I don’t know maybe I thought it was a fairly good comparison but you know when we left the organization like I kind of honestly I hope it’s not insensitive to compare to this but I felt like it was kind of like coming out because. Because like you said none of us were allowed to be ourselves. And so trying to find our authentic selves and honestly that’s still a search on some level to figure out who you are after spending so long in the cold. But one of the things you mentioned it was that you know because you know people especially of the older generation though obviously you’re a great example of the younger generation going through the same thing. But you know a lot of them were just thrown away you know by their families. And so I’m just can you touch on you know when you speak to these ones.

[02:05:24] Is there any wisdom that you’ve been able to glean from them as far as how they’ve gone on in their lives. Because I think that they probably have some truly great insights. Oh my God yeah. For me for people like us that are shunned that’s you know maybe maybe we got there through different paths but the results the same is there anything that you would care to share that you know you think maybe the listening audience you know might benefit from that you’ve learned from them. Yeah I mean pressure. I know right. But no probably one of the biggest things I took from them is don’t take life too seriously you know a lot of them. You’re right they haven’t thrown away for coming now at an older age or you know back in the day it was harder. Yeah no. And some points they told me stories about riots how they had to stand up against police for just being gay. And so that puts my aspect about my story. OK. I didn’t have it that bad you know. Yeah it’s so you know one of these that they also took away from them is that there’s always somebody out there who has it worse and you have the power to help. So if that’s the case that’s true. And I kept telling myself that like for example when I was moving house to house when I didn’t have a bit of singing for I was like at least I have this for at least I have as we get somebody out there does not have any of us at least I have my my car I have work. People don’t have that.

[02:07:18] So that’s probably the biggest thing that I’ve learned from them is to always remind yourself that somebody has it worse and you have it good. So make the most of it. That is really profound because it’s easy for us to get wrapped up in in what we don’t have and to fail to see what we do have. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that because I think that that’s something that I think we know we can’t we can all learn from one another regardless of experiences. We all we all hurt the same and we can all heal the same as well. You know we can you can learn from one another. I love that. I’m really glad you shared that. I want to thank Fernando so much for talking to me about this. You did a great job man. I’m glad to have you as a friend now and I appreciate you being so vulnerable. I also want to make sure that I share with all the listeners that Fernando was actually a talented artist. He was really thoughtful pieces that often reflect his life. If you’d like to see what he does you can follow him on Instagram at Nando be 4 0 5. So that’s Nando short prefer Nando B as in his last initial and the number four or five Nando B 405 I’ll go ahead and link to it in the show notes. Also I will put a link on the show notes to free mom hugs the amazing charity that he mentioned. Please support Fernando by leaving him a message Shawn podcast Dom on the episodes page under his particular episode.

[02:09:04] You know we all need to support one another through this stuff. He can of course read and respond to the comments as well. As you know if you listen to the little episode I put out looking for help with supporting the show. You can also support the show by going to patriarch dot com slash fund and Sonning out there to help with the expenses of the show including some things we can do to find more people that need help. If you didn’t get that episode on the fact that I needed help then chances are you aren’t a subscriber. Let’s face it you should be. I didn’t announce that went anywhere. So go ahead subscribe and you’ll make sure that you never miss any of these the other way that I said that you can. How about leaving reviews on iTunes. I did get a few more and I’d love to get even more. Not just this podcast but also this J.W. life as well. I think I’ve had a few Jacobs leave me some one stars because of the two or between the two podcasts so let’s crush those 1 stars or some good 5 star reviews. All right so that’s enough housekeeping. Are you ready to hear what I told you about in the intro. What I said that I’d get to. So like I said there’s been some exciting things happening since my last official podcast I put out that call looking for people to support the show financially. I wanted to get some transcripts done of these episodes so that we can try to attract more people through search engine traffic and by doing so we can help more people.

[02:10:40] Well some of you stepped up and it looks like I should have enough to get them transcribed on an ongoing basis. I know I sent you all emails but I want to thank those who supported me by name here of course. First names only because you know I don’t know everybody’s situations and some may still technically be in the cult and I don’t want to give away too much identifying information. But thank you so much Adam Craig Daniel David Dirck. Matt Sherry and your families help support this. You know it really means a lot to me and someone will find this podcast and get help because of you. You may never know it. Heck I may never know it because for every person that gets help and reaches out to me I’m sure there are many others that I never hear from. You’ve done a truly good thing of course that doesn’t cover the back catalogue necessarily though there might be a little Starplus each month that I could have put towards it but then something amazing happened just two days after posting the episode looking for help. I came home from work to find two lawyer letters in my mailbox. Let me ask you how many times that you just show up at home and find a letter from a lawyer. Out of nowhere is it a good thing. Well it turns out that apparently my mom won some sort of settlement from a facility my dad was in before he died a few years back and apparently I was entitled to some small portion of that. You can’t imagine how shocked that was. My dad died virtually penniless.

[02:12:24] He was on disability because he neglected his body for so long. He ended up on dialysis. He flat out refused. My mom begged him over the years to get life insurance and he just flat out refused he wasn’t going to do it. Which is par for the course with them and ultimately he died because he decided to go off dialysis because his heart wasn’t doing so well anymore. Dialysis isn’t easy on a heart. Neither is the I don’t know 60 plus years of neglect. So I’m not really sure why she got the settlement. But as you can guess a part of that money is going to go to this catalog. I want to go ahead and use a portion of this money to get the back catalog transcribed. So thanks dad. Thanks for all the emotional abuse growing up for screaming at me on the phone for loving the gays and being an awful person because I dared to speak science over religious bigotry for shunning me not only before I left the court but also over the last year of your life and for this Chuck. You know I say that a little tongue in cheek. I mean that that is a part of the way I feel. But to be honest you know getting the check kind of messed with my mind a bit. You know it’s it’s absolutely going to support this cause that I’m involved in and that he would have been opposed to. But you know not not every person OK. Nobody is all good or all bad. And you know my dad could be fun when he was in a good mood.

[02:14:07] He would take us to ballgames as a kid. He was an intelligent guy. I mean you could sit there and watch Jeopardy or wheel of fortune or something like that and he would crush it from the couch for being as close minded as he was. He did have quite a bit of knowledge and even with his gross intolerance of anyone different than himself he did show some growth over the years and mellowed out a little bit. We had good times fishing and watching TV were the two things that he ever really seemed to get enjoyment from in life other than the adoration he would get as an elder in the Keenum Hall. My wife and I would take my dad fishing near the end of his life. I really reached out to them I tried to have a good relationship with him despite his his lack of cooperation. But in the end you know everybody wants a dad. My wife and I haven’t been fishing since he died a few years ago. So we took a portion of the money and bought fishing poles and went fishing for the first time. And that was pretty cool. We even went back to some places that we used to take him to. So you know I’m talking about this because it’s just a very real thing and it also illustrates the difficulties in this whole this whole thing. Everything that shunned is about you know to put it frankly it’s a mindfucked to have people that you are so close to shun you. It’s not true that people are all good or all bad. They’re just not. People are just people.

[02:15:41] Some are broken some are broken some are more messed up than others. Some look to grow some flat out refuse others you know might want to get better as a human but just never get the tools. So it’s I’m using money from his death to help fund my show. I felt it was right to share that on here. Now I’m going to sound like an infomercial but wait there’s more in my sincere desire to get this out to as many people as possible. I found that I could actually put my podcasts up on YouTube through the service that I pay to every month to host my audio files. So I started a YouTube channel called Sean podcast oneword. Imagine that. Now you can get my podcasts. You know as you get them normally and that’s probably best because however you’re getting them now you can probably download them and listen wherever you are. But you know by putting them on YouTube I’m finding a different audience. There are some people out there that just aren’t in the podcasts but they’ll listen to things on YouTube. So I noticed I was picking up some subscribers and that’s a that’s a really awesome thing. But let’s go more infomercial here. If you go there on YouTube and subscribe now you get a bonus. I actually did an in person video. Yes. You yourself can be exposed to my ugly mug on your computer or device of choice I’m labeling them as vid Casse so that you can just check those out if you want to. There’s a playlist there and you can just search for the video.

[02:17:28] A year ago I took a leap push myself way beyond my comfort zone and I started this J.W. life. My first podcast. So it’s almost exactly a year later just maybe a year and a week or two and I push myself to get in front of a camera and do some videos. I still have things that I’d like to add to this discussion about cults beyond helping others to tell their story here on the podcast. My videos will come out whenever I have something to say and the time to say it they’ll be about topics that I don’t feel or talked about as much. You know there are a lot of people who do videos about doctrine and you know I do care about the doctrine of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I do care about the latest happenings in the cold. I stay on top of those sometimes even through the use of other people’s videos but my you know my my voice I guess you would say are the the focus of my videos and even really these stories. I want to get to the heart of the matter. I want to talk about the experience what it’s like what it feels like to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses or in any kind of cult really. I want to talk about what it’s like not just when you’re in but also the things that we all face when we get out. And so subscribe to Sean podcast on YouTube and you’ll get my videos whenever they come out. No promises that the frequency on those podcasts is my main focus but I’ve already got a list forming of things I want to talk about.

[02:19:11] And like I said this is a free bonus. So what are you waiting for. Get yours today. You know like all the things I mentioned you’ll find the link in the show notes you can go to one podcast com you can find those notes on the episode page and you can actually probably depending on what app you’re using to listen to podcasts you can probably access the show notes right from the app. There’s usually a description of the episode and if you expand that you’ll be able to have links to anything that are mentioned or that the guest mentions on the podcast so you can go ahead. Subscribe right now. Probably from your app. You can also subscribe to the YouTube channel you can see songs that guests pick out. That meant something to them. You can create your own playlist of the songs to help you help yourself. You know because music means a lot sometimes through these journeys. You can also sign up right from your phone to support the show financially. You know everything is right there. So I just want to take a second and thank all of you so much for supporting this. We had the highest number of downloads this past month that we’ve ever had here on shunned. Heck people are still finding this J.W. life and starting their Episode 1 we just went over 10000 downloads when I released the last episode of shunned and now we’re well over 12000 at the time of this release and we also just went over 20000 downloads of this J.W. life. So there’s something here and you’re all a part of it.

[02:20:46] So share this stuff. It’s really helping people. So damn happy that I got 8 in this one. But I will go ahead and let you know that next month is an episode that’s very personal to me. I know this person and watched her grow up. She’s selling her story. Despite some consequences that could come from her doing so because she is not technically out yet. But you know there are stories that are too important not to sell. And hers is one of those. It involves sexual abuse inside the Colts a life that delved deep into drug abuse and ultimately redemption and freedom. I’m really excited to share that with everybody. So music for this episode was provided by Hollington bear. And let’s go ahead and send this out right. Love others do no harm and go be happy.