Episode Six – Part 1 – Sexual Abuse and Jehovah’s Witnesses – David’s Story

David Part 1.mp3

[00:00:01] Welcome to the shunned podcast. Today’s episode is the story of David. Now this episode and the ones that follow are going to be a little different. David had a lot to share. And so this episode is actually going to be or his episode is going to be three parts. There will be two regular episodes and then I’m going to throw in a bonus episode as well. The bonus will consist of some things that we talked about really before we got to David’s story before we really started outlining everything and putting it in order. We had a conversation that I think was pretty important and that some people need to hear and I hope that it helps others. I will warn you that some of the story that we’re about to delve into is intense. It does deal with the matters of sexual abuse. This is a very important topic. The Watchtower organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses has been under fire recently through some documents that showed up on a faith Leak’s site. Through that story being picked up by Newsweek by the Daily Mail through the Australian Royal Commission through the process that were held at war with the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses in New York this is a topic that was not talked about inside of the organization as we were Jehovah’s Witnesses. This is something that for an organization that claims to be led by God was largely ignored and that it has taken outside influences to explain.

[00:01:51] For science as for psychologists for four therapists to get to the root of things like sexual abuse how it affects people how predators really are wired and and how they act. And for some reason the organization led by God supposedly claiming to be led by God did not understand this. However these things have come to light and this is a topic that needs to be discussed. It needs to be brought to light so that people can heal. And so that’s a lot of people can know that they’re not alone. So David was courageous enough to share his story so that he could help others feel less alone. And I want to. David was gracious enough to to do this so that I could share it with you. These episodes are going to be a little different. They’re not the normal way that stories are told on here. They will be more conversational. It will be a conversation between him and I and he’ll hopefully you’ll take away quite a bit from it. I hope that this information or this story that you don’t just come away with it. Let’s not boil it down to just being this one aspect. You know this aspect of sexual abuse and the conversations surrounding it. David lived a lifetime of experiences and just a short time. There is a lot to learn here. David is a beautiful soul for allowing himself to be vulnerable and to express these things and then I mean you just see throughout his story that he’s a pretty awesome person a great human being. And sadly. Well maybe not sadly but it is a lot of the most sincere people in the organization known as Jehovah’s Witnesses that leave.

[00:03:50] There was something that I’ve noticed since getting out and that and learning the stories of people that it is a lot of the people who are the most heartfelt and sincere that end up leaving the organization known as the truth so I want to thank David for sharing his life with me so that I can share it with you. And without further ado let’s go ahead and get to David’s story. My name is David. I’m 33 years old. I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I am shunned. All right so then David how do you come into the religion how how did that how do you find yourself in that situation. Well I was born in. So it’s all I really ever knew. And I remember when I was young like looking in my parents Bibles like my mom had a big big black one with the red on the binding of it and along the pages and I opened the inside cover and had her baptism. And she would always talk about being aloof and before and stuff but I just saw everything happening to them. That’s only a few years before I was born. Did it make sense that someone could not be just born into this and I felt so lucky that so then you got to be born in. How did your parents then say your mom. Think you said she was Lutheran. How did. How did she come into the religion. You know how that all originated and maybe your father too. How that came about. Well the way I understand it is my mom came in the religion because she was raised Luther.

[00:05:32] And when they were living up in northern Minnesota some people came to the door some nice people and I know them and I know their names and I’ve even like on separate occasions went up to them and thank them because of my way to my parents and so I wrote my spiritual grandparents but they came in her original goal was she was going to help these poor confused people so she brought them in it was going to share. No no box them up with her. King James Bible about redeeming their soul basically. And so she started to listen to them though and liked what they were saying. My dad he was a bit more skeptical and I’ve heard stories that like since then like the guy who came with his wife who studied with my mom was terrified of my dad at first because he stood in the doorway the whole time and he was actually taking in the information. He just wasn’t showing an eager spirit because he himself was shortly thereafter converted but he stood under this doorway with his arms crossed and right above it was hanging like his rifle gun. And so I was just terrified thinking oh man this guy just hates what I’m telling his wife and he’s not going to stand for it too long. So it’s funny that he was actually being converted in that doorway. So they both kind of were reached through the ministry work in the heyday of the 70s and before 75 to which is important. I think that they were in that mass spell of expansion. Yeah that makes sense. That was a big time because yes they loved 275 that’s when they were in there.

[00:07:08] So then what did it mean to you back then. You know who were you then. How do you feel about it. What was it to you. What did Jehovah’s Witnesses mean to you. Well when I was young my life had a lot of confusion because my parents eventually got divorced when I was still young and I don’t know this sound terrible that I’d actually don’t know how all that was when it happened. Just being young not wanting it to happen not understanding and there’s a lot of confusion that a young person could digest that. So but I remember my mom was teaching us mostly and my dad was around biodome and I hear the question again. I got Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah no problem. You know just what. Where were you. So you know your parents are witnesses. You are. And you’re what are you. How you know how. What did it mean to you. I mean did it when we can kind of incorporate the next question. What was the world view that the religion gave you. You know what. How did it how did it impact you. You know being a young witness well what it meant to me was that I just felt very lucky because I was born into what I was told was the one and only true religion. And so I thought God this just works out great. I just get all my other friends. They don’t know about Jehovah want to talk about Jehovah. They don’t know that there’s a paradise we can have tigers and they don’t know these things.

[00:08:37] And I remember feeling like how lucky I was. But I was also very scared. My world view could be like there were the people I liked and I felt like they won’t get to be there in my grandparents because my parents came in saw both grandpa and grandma on both sides. You know this is my family. What they don’t get to be there. I couldn’t. It was hard for me to reconcile that people I liked and seemed to be good. Still working to make it. I remember as a young kid in school was like first grade. There’s a boy named Gavin and he really he was just kind of trying to push the envelope more than anything like edgy conversion of morals. He was heavy but he liked that I didn’t say the Pledge of Allegiance. So one day he joined me and he said see it either. And he put his hand out of his heart and he just stood there looking at him. I felt so proud that I ran home and I was like time our oldest Gavin you know at school like I know he’s like school friends and we’re supposed to hang out with him but you don’t understand what he did today. He stood up for Jehovah. He did it. You see the Pledge of Allegiance.

[00:09:45] And then you still I get it now as an adult that he probably was just doing it to be edgy and shock value but to my mom she says it didn’t mean anything to me I just couldn’t make sense of it how I know I should be able to hang out with him now because he’s not young you know what he’s doing is trying to make change it’s just a friend and it wasn’t quite that way and then eventually you know my parents got divorced. Things changed a bit. But. Well then what was your childhood like at home. You know how how were you treated. Because it’s not like you just had parents you had parents who were Jehovah’s Witnesses so you know what was life like at home life was at home. Three I guess when is really young pretty easy. Pretty simple. My dad. Some of my earlier memories were signs of his abuse was starting to come out. And I remember things more as impressions like I remember the impression I got here. This was tied to that effect. And I don’t know years or dates but he was starting to be abusive and you know his temper was getting to where my mom couldn’t handle anymore so they were on the edge of splitsville. I remember the divorce took precedence over everything pretty much and I didn’t know why my dad couldn’t live with us anymore. I remember he came to the house with some pleas to get the rest of his things some time. And as a young person I was just fascinated that men in uniform with your shiny handcuffs and guns on their hip were at my house and then Dad grabbed his box and he left and I’m begging my mom like just give him another chance some time. Now I think it’s sitting in his garden. Part of it was because it was a temper issue and his abuse.

[00:11:36] There was an order for protection so he wasn’t allowed in like 500 feet of us and my mom’s way of acquiescing that was well years ago when your father and I came in truth. I actually went up to that meetings in our park Rapids which is a congregation like 45 minutes north of us. And so because the order of protection he can stay here in my town. And he would go to the meetings here and we would travel by 45 minutes to the Kingdom Hall. So that was my my mom kind of after everything hard happened with the divorce she just went like die hard as hard as I’ve ever seen. And I think that’s what’s her mission in life now. She’s willing to drive 45 minutes one way or an hour and half a drive time. This is back in the 90s when we had Tuesday night meeting Thursday night meeting ceremony service and Sunday mornings. And I just remember thinking like we would bring our book bags and we’d have a backpack full of round them on call around home close our lingo I guess play clothes is better than most of ours and that dress clothes and round home clothes that we’d stay in place with our families other. So I was building friendships and Wadena with my dad going there became more and more of like a distant memory where when I would see people like in the store even elders and guys who ignored me had felt like I should know them. Oh that’s a witness. And I just can’t remember the name.

[00:13:03] And it was very odd for me because I was in a sense going to a kind of half 45 minutes out of where I lived but my mom buried there. And because of her situation everyone was sharing you on you’re going through this poor thing and you got to divorce your husband was abusive and you’re just trying to do the best for your kids. She got that love bond as much as she also got the support of you’re in a new hall where you used to go years ago. And there’s that return to old friendship. You’ve got kids. So there’s that warmth of welcome that love bond as well and I just got all these new faces to elders and elders Gittel new fans. Anyone taking an interest in me and it was great. You know for not just being anonymous speak. Yeah yeah. I mean that makes sense. What happened to your dad. So he goes to the creation you know where you lived. I mean you know if there’s an IPO and things like that. Was he disfellowshipped. No it was actually my mom divorced him because he was abusive which was unscriptural so she and the others I guess tried to make amends like tried to keep them together which we’ll get into the elders qualifications as marriage counselors. Later I’m sure. But you know like two people dealing with serious issues before when I was trying to raise us four remaining kids you know before us even I had an older sister who I had never met. She ran away at 15. I was just a baby I had no memories of her at all. And like that was always she was like this legend of something I knew would never matter.

[00:14:49] Like oh that would be my sister you’re talking of. She ran away because my dad’s abuse she couldn’t take him. She hated him. They had very strong character and butted heads nonstop. She eventually just ran away. No no word from a mom where she was headed or anything. Very hard life for her son. Your dad wasn’t. So was your mom disfellowshipped. No not disfellowshipped. She was just like put it in that light. I don’t know if it was her proof even I haven’t. I’m very. The details were kept for me. I just know that the elders didn’t. They were also friends of my dad so they kind of took his side because she was getting a divorce on UN scriptural grounds even though he was abusive. But they everybody knew him as this great guy. He was a great guy to all of them. They never saw any abuse. They all thought that while she had it coming Malfi daughter we know what she was like and my mom just. My mom was just hell bent on this like idea. I’m not going to let one of these other boys grow up like I lost one daughter to you and your attitude that she’s got these remaining four. She is not going to be with him and even it was kind of like reproof but we’re advising you stay together. My mom said thanks for your advice.

[00:16:06] But no still divorced him and that’s what kind of put her in a way where she didn’t get a lot of sympathy or support from the local elders which I also think it made her made it easy for her to jump ship and go up to that kind of relationship. If it was 45 Maria that makes away yeah go go where nobody really knows you. To that extent or knows the current situation is so much. Yeah. And oddly even the people in the congregation north though didn’t know the extent because that’s kind of the area where they came in to the organization so they knew him and they knew her but they kind of knew enough to they were a little more I guess her side than his side. And they were sympathetic then rather than he was their body necessarily like he would have been at the Park Rapids that was that was I don’t know. It was like her side his side and somehow their bodies took a side. Oh yeah yeah yeah that’s yeah that’s how they work. So then you know you’re now going 45 minutes to this new creation. You know you’re a little kid and and so now you know you’re progressing into your teenage years. You know how how did how did life transpire you know how did how did life go as far as you know at school. You know at the Keenum Hall at home. How is being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses impacting all that. Well eventually along the way my dad. Now the divorce has happened. He always tried to be a part of our life right.

[00:17:40] He won all against the order for protection he was intercepted on the way through school like you some gifts or say you know don’t don’t tell your mom this is this came for me and when you come home with a skateboard she knows you need to go buy a skateboard. I remember this one skateboard he bought me or intercepted me in his car. It’s funny how my dad was such a strong character when I look back at him I can see where he could be stubborn and pigheaded and have a temporary. He is very sure he stopped me in his car like that you know like right in front of me is at the stop sign is they’ve already had the brain of the skateboard and he shows it to me. I just love head like blue and orange wheels. That was awesome. There’s the old Broadlawns but there is this union on the bottom. And I remember telling him that I can’t I can’t have it’s kind of you here. And he looked at me kind of rolled his eyes as they were like OK OK you know he’s being patient to kick out his knife and then starts scraping paint on the bottom right. And this is a little bit of a process. The other car ever starts coming up and they’re like what’s going on. And he just waves them around like he’s not moving his feet. You you go around fitness scratching and yelling and the bottom of the skateboard. And once it meets my standard where it’s not demonic now I bring it home and my mom looks at it and I remember when she like David and you know he can’t be doing this rage. She hated that she had a crush more like that but to her mind that’s what she had to do. Is he broken.

[00:19:10] He can’t be giving gifts like this. And when we first went the park Rachal there was a brother who took an interest in me with a bow and arrow and I was like Native Americans in archery and Robin Hood and just the middle like that kind of stuff. And I got a bowl for you what someone’s got to give me and it’s a Borio. And then you are still working in a house all showing an interest in me Mama. She’s always she’s just happy son was interested in her kids and helping out and she’s going through all that stuff. But then when the guy gets me along because he also knew my dad he says well don’t tell your mother this was from your dad and you want you to have it. He knew it couldn’t get it so he was like using subversive means through people and all contacts to still distort things to us. He was always trying he just wasn’t sure he didn’t have the skill set to be the dad that could have worked things out with my mom and be a dad that way. And eventually he gets remarried. So what happens to my dad is he gets remarried to another gown and because the divorce wasn’t scriptural this is his first you know love outside of the marriage bonds they meet with the wife his new wife that is she gets disfellowshipped when it comes his turn to meet with the elders he goes to the ones here with Dina who are also his buddies. And then he says something to the effect that like King David was sorry he did awful things and they parted him basically he gets no punishment.

[00:20:40] So his new wife gets disfellowshipped because she married someone who is technically not scripturally free to remarry. Yes but he being the guy who knows he’s not scripturally free to remarry skates. Yeah. That’s the thing is he gets in there it goes back to he could just rally against these local elders so much. But they I know them and they talk to me about this situation before and they said well you try to help a guy out. You’re all that comes back to bite because they gave my dad a break there and they admitted that they did it disfellowshipping there. What happens now is bird goes up to the third overseer. He says Wait what. The wife is our husband got to stay because he you guys this decision he wipes that judicial committee out of. None of them are elders anymore. So now they really think my mom and my side of the family is like that. They got axes to grind it away and yeah they lose their position. They kind of just become rank and file again and other people are promoted Hall’s kind of failure for a while. Eventually they do work their way back up where I think for sure. Two of the three I don’t even know if I know ever who the third one was on that meeting. But yeah two of the three are now elders again. They have been elders for years. It was just one of those situations where because so much of all calls by family and they feel like they’ve been on both ends of it receiving go.

[00:22:14] They got removed as it was their decision and they were giving a free pass and then when it came back to bite they like further than like my mom or my family. But now my dad’s remarried he goes to live where her whole is with the new wife and then retroactively he is disfellowshipped because the CEOs wife removed those elders meet with the ones who are disfellowshipped her and do what they say. So he meets with her elders and they say Utu Gairy you disfellowshipped. And now they’re both disfellowshipped living out of Wadena and my mom kind of sees that as an he’s moved down his life and Wadena is now open for us to return again. So we stop going to the park rapids meetings. Then we return back to our home congregation which after all the elder body and now their wives and they’re none too happy I think to see us again. I mean here comes drama you know how you know and then they’ve they’ve been some of them have been removed as elders and the family’s been impacted. Wow I’m sure they were shooting daggers when they saw you all walk in. Yeah pretty much. So then how did go you know for you at the new place. You know I don’t know how old you were at this time. Well this is kind of a part of my life back that gets to my teenage years. Elders who were removed are healthy locals are fine with anyone. I feel like I’m an outsider. Skateboard. I listen to music and I change my wall and they just think of me is weird.

[00:23:53] He’s that kid at every get together he’s outside playing hacky sack rather than shooting with the most elderly senior members of the congregation. So he’s if we’re taking a pause the next one to leave was higher on the radar. And I just knew that day back in the Devils game. I knew there was this person. I’ve always felt there was a perception of me that Blake Well like any other youth who lash out or act out alone. My mom didn’t know what to do. So she had a man in her life for a long time and I would think she was drama just completely anything that came up. I’m calling the elders to the elders dealt with us like we like you know they don’t want to come over and talk to you about your music or you’re really mad at your mom right now and so it’s like they were out there with chop talk to a girl. And the dad knew about and I was feel like I remember them not I not I don’t know if it was any of Ridgway heads. You know that’s that’s who she turned to because I think she went all in on the religion. Yeah. For her situation. And if it wasn’t going to help her in the stressful times. I don’t know. She gave it her. Also she expected her to save her and give that back a chance. Yeah. That was her relationship. It became her relationship that was so cute. Yeah absolutely. And then eventually Don she gets remarried in 98 and now I’m probably 14 going on 15.

[00:25:29] And no I don’t like the guy that never see my mom happy like this before. So you know you’re kind of like it and don’t have any affinity to him or closeness to him. No he he had a lot of issues himself I just never got completely comfortable with him it was more like my mom husband moved in with doesn’t he was he was a roommate of sorts more than a father figure at all. And because of his own issues I often she herself made comments about to take another kid growing up on know little kurumsal stuff like that where you just feel like even when he wasn’t around. My mom’s words and opinion of him really made me think look I don’t have any warm fuzzy toward this guy and if that’s how you will feel at all here and I just he just exists in our house. But that’s not fair. We’re going to put him or you in here. There he was we were he had he had issues that we could do like five podcasts on just him and he wanted back to me. I feel like this is the point where from a spiritual standpoint I didn’t like my hall and thou. I didn’t like my home life. And so I was at a point where I didn’t like what was going on at school I had friends as popular people like me a lot of Skeeter’s so we were all kind of outcasts. You know you find each other. We’re going to have if you’re a loner you at least had to fight. They’re loners. You don’t know let’s all be a group of people who are reviled.

[00:27:05] But yeah he’s looking for a community however they can find community. Yeah. So however there was a guy who moved into our kingdom hall Steve. A I would just call him he was probably the greatest influence in my life. He was the person who I would say kept me in the organization. I saw his example. I saw his. He was the first person who showed me that there is another way of anything. How to be how to act how did you know what a joke how to have fun. He made service fun. And I felt like that was a huge part. Before you can have a lot of the people you’re going to talk to you just have to have fun being now and other he moved to my hall and he went with a few blocks away. And this was in his mid 20s at the time I’m late 20s possibly. And he played guitar. I want to play guitar. He taught me how to play music and I love it. He had a skateboard. He wasn’t as good as me but you know you don’t see anyone else in the congregation who you with. Consider an adult having this type of toy. So he really made an impact on me being that he only lived like five houses away or blocks away I could just go and do I didn’t want to hear how my mom and her new husband. And I’d say hey let’s go over to Steve’s. So we just up and go.

[00:28:25] And that was like a refuge a home away from home big brother who at this time a real pleasantly big brother had been discipleship as well as my older sister so for being as far as kids who were around when my mom was remarried the second time to Kenny was it was mostly myself and my younger brother Donna and my nephew Zach. There’s too much story here. I don’t know where to go I have to go back. I missed a very important point. Okay glad. The reason my nephew Zach lived with us. Yeah it wasn’t that kind of jumped out at me. Yes my sister who obey and not abandon it ran away from home when we were young kids and I never really knew her. She lived a hard life on the streets and in 1994 she got in contact with my mom again from her pattern of life she had picked up HIV and that she was going to harm. I think we reached out because she realized for her it’s probably in line. So she moves back up to me and I saw that I get to meet the sister finally who is just. She was a really great influence on me. She could really help me. He was worldly as all get out but she really helped me. From a standpoint of my what I liked she was into what I was into and she wanted something for me that was what I wanted for me not just like whoa I want you to do this because that’s what I want for you. She kind of was whereas people who liked your spread your wings and that will fulfill you. So it’s really good to have that balance.

[00:30:12] But she moved first and then made way for her husband and two adoptive daughters that were his come up from Houston Texas after I got to meet her and the girls came. Then lastly the husband came and they lived in our little town for a while. And they were in the drugs and some very unsavory characters were always lurking around and eventually it ended in a murder where he killed her and my mom ended up taking in the two daughters who were at his adaptively and they at that point had one kid my nephew Zach wholely. So yeah. You know the three of them are not get the four of us and then three more come on board the two girls eventually a lot of thing came about where they were my mom wasn’t able to give them what they needed. And being is she kind of turned them over to the state because was too much they and all by herself having seven kids and these grandkids now living with you being that Zach was the only one really that was my sisters. At no state are you there. And then my mom got remarried eventually after that. So. Gotcha gotcha. Hear you cut you cut in a little bit cut in and out a little bit. The signal seemed to go or something but. So sure. I think I don’t want to say I like but I’m going to say it. I like that. You know this story has so much to it that you just kind of glossed over the fact that your sister was killed by her husband.

[00:32:02] I mean wow that is you know like like you it’s it’s so so much of a story here that I mean that alone is enough. I mean what I know you know I can’t speak for you but you know what kind of impact did it have on you. You know you know that your sister was killed. I mean it seemed like she she had come back. You know you finally get to meet this person in your life. Yeah. You know she’s having an impact on you a positive impact in this horrific thing happens. You know how was it. How did that impact you the way you felt. How did that. How was that viewed in the congregation you know because I know how witnesses can be about things where they were they comforting and supportive or everything. Well you know she just deserved got what she deserved. It’s a weird situation because when she came back in her life in 94 at first it was just her. And then when you rifled through someone and you know them like the same photos that you have of them and you just look at the same photos. This is my sister this my sister this Mrs. And then they come and they meet you and they smile like your other sister and they’re animate in the flesh in front of you. It’s like the scary thing is though all of that happened. I don’t mean to sound like I had glossed over it but that happened. I met her 94 and she was murdered in 96 when I was 10 to 12. So there was like it’s like more of a memory of a dream. Yeah.

[00:33:46] In my life where someone just kind of came and made a huge impact and slid it on. And I feel like it’s it’s the craziest thing to think about that I could have you know. And you know I would say don’t forget but it seems so brief. You have to remind yourself now because like the two daughters after the situation live with us remember Robert caravan all of us down to when she was beating Kenny. But then when they got married it just struck me that other girls weren’t there because they had kind of gone to foster care homes to the state’s care. My mom just kept my nephew Zach. And oh yeah it’s just it’s just very weird to remember that when this happened. And those memories they never got to be around him when they were actually married together I think that was like my memory is very jumbled in a lot of this. I mean I think since you were so there’s a lot you’re so young. You don’t do birthdays still like timelines are hard to keep. I was very in survival mode. Like I remember I just remember being maybe middle child syndrome or whatever you want to call it that like I always felt like. I remember once telling my mom called my older sister I don’t know and she ran away. So that makes you think Julie my my immediate oldest members remaining sister who I did know is only a girl after Rubin. He is now the oldest to. Will have to wait. He’s like the all male the housemen Jonas the baby and here I am in the middle like it was this you just entertain yourself.

[00:35:21] You feel you fall into yourself and you start finding like I don’t know you know how kids are I guess where they find their own. You make do with what you have and if you feel like your parents up against a lot. I knew my mom was part of the thing. I could do to help her was just not worth it be invisible. But I had a lot of humor and I was the glue that kept her work together. But I also was very good at trying not to ask for help or ask for needing anything. And that was that was part of my what I can do is you know does it make. Yeah I don’t make waves. I help heal and then they receive back and say you know there’s me you make jokes you make people laugh and I hear a conflict. So try and do what I could. But it’s it’s it’s a lot of demographic in any any family or household. Yeah. I mean what you’ve told me already is a lot of story in that there were just there are a lot of characters moving in and out of the story and there are a lot of there’s a lot of transition and there’s a lot of heavy stuff. And I think you know when it’s your life. You know I just kind of normal like I mean I know when I told my own story on my pug podcast there was something about when I actually you know I never really thought about it it was just my life and whatever.

[00:36:58] When I sat down and was actually writing some of it out and I was standing there for hours speaking about it you know just kind of hit me you know if somebody else had told me that story my own story would have probably given them a lot more compassion than I’d ever give in myself for it you know. And you know you have a lot in your story you know to this is a there is a lot of moving parts and you know you could just take this part of it or that part of it and segmented it off and it would have been it would have been tough. And you know when you add it all together. You know of course you were just trying to survive. Of course you were. I think I used the term dissociating earlier. You know I think part of being invisible is just kind of dissociating us and you know there’s a lot going on here and I’m just going to kinda be in my own little world and do my thing. You know occasionally I’ll pop in and try to make people happy or try to lighten you know a heavy mood. And it’s it’s a lot to carry. You know when you think back to a 10 12 year old kid you know that’s that’s a lot. So I’m just saying that you know you know of course you don’t remember all of these things of course you’re not going to remember the Tom lines man you had a lot going on. Yeah. You know that’s a lot. Yeah. It’s I don’t apologize for calling tangental let me come across. I always will.

[00:38:41] No no no apologies no apologies you’re presenting this in a very logical link. I’m about to say like one of those points from the theocratic Ministry School a logical coherent development. Now I have to edit my blood. But yeah like you know what you’re saying you’re telling it a very logical way. Man you just got it’s just you’ve got a lot going on there. And you know I guess what I’m kind of telling you is you know from an outsider’s perspective you have some has some compassion for yourself. You know you went through a lot. This is a lot of stuff for. You know we’re just up to here. You know you’re young adulthood I guess. You know it’s a lot of things for you to have had to deal with so you know don’t don’t be hard on yourself for how it’s presented yourself on the back for even being able to present that this well you know it’s there’s a lot of things here. And you should be commended for being able to create a cohesive story out of it and make something there. Well thank you. I do take I don’t know I take credit for it but I also feel like how can I not have a handle on things that happen to me and you know. So there’s some stuff that is like I know when I talk to my mothers sisters and they fill in things I’m like oh yeah. And so for what it’s worth I think I’m doing good Deshi remember as much as I do. I’m sure all the gaps are filled in I don’t know. It’d be just too much to even utter out loud.

[00:40:33] I just don’t know if someone else was telling me this story. I would look at them and say well you know it’s ridiculous. If this note you take that out take this out take this out and it still sounds like some Hollywood script that’s just too fantastical to ever be real but I went through it. It’s the it’s real. You’re not the only person who’s you know there’s a podcast I like to listen to. I mentioned on my podcast called The Mental Illness Happy Hour. And on it people tell their stories. And you’re not alone man like you know obviously hers has unique qualities we have the Colts of Jehovah’s Witnesses in it. But you’re not alone. There are so many people that go through so much and I don’t know. I just think you know. Good for you for you know being strong enough to make it through all that and whatever you can remember of it of course you can’t remember all of it. Nobody can we all. All of us can go back and get things you know filled in. But you know you should. Don’t. Don’t worry about how this is all coming off. Because I’ll tell you now this is coming off very well at least you know know from an outsider’s perspective. And it’s just it’s just a lot and you know. I know you just mentioned Steve so like I was a I’m sorry the. So so you know you’re just getting to that segment of your life so you know how did how did all that start to you know. I think I derailed you a little bit.

[00:42:24] Oh that’s good though. Oh I do. I do want to ask though you know how did the congregation react about your sister were they do they do what I assume. Well it’s this will leave you may be gutted to know and I don’t know the validity of it’s true or not but I wouldn’t put it past anyone. Once word got out that my sister had returned and she had wild piercings and tattoos and had lived basically just the street life she told her stories about getting to Texas was like I had to jump on a moving semis that I got into because it was obvious this guy is a creep you know like there were stories that were circulating around the hall someone came up to my sister was on some medication it wasn’t yet AIDS but it was HIV and she was taking a medication that was experimental and she would get sick occasionally. And like I know that she would get sick but there were some sisters in the hall who said that oh she was in there and we heard puking and then when we went in and looked there was a massive storm. We had to clean it up and we shouldn’t have to be the ones to clean up HIV over sickness or whatever. This is not a hospital where she is that kind of care she should stay home. They didn’t. It was not welcoming. So again a flip flop happened with my mom and sister we’re going up to Park Rapids with us and this is going to blow your mind because eventually the girls do get there.

[00:43:51] And so now it’s the four kids or five kids and my sister being reunited and then her two girls and there we were crammed in this car. I remember sitting on people’s laps like driving up to 45 minutes late. There was one that was a blizzard and it was so bad my mom was like couldn’t see the road. But my sister Kelly said she was going to just look out the window. She’s a artist I can see. And she was literally like voice guiding my mom like okay I can see the white light with her head out the window in the blizzard Amber thinking like just how happy I was that Kelly was here and she was being so heroic that we were all get home safely. And a 45 minute drive which lasted about an hour and a half and it was just like I remember things like that crammed into people’s laps and it was a new struggle and all that and I felt like now it’s really starting to get into me that the the elders and Dina and the sisters who they made this story up like I know my sister was sick and had her problems. And that would have been a bad thing if it was true. But she was also deeply embarrassed about her condition. Wouldn’t let us wash our clothes in with her load wouldn’t let us use her like toenail clippers and stuff like that. Like just very like she there’s no way she would have left a mess for somewhere else to clean up. Data just there. Yeah. They didn’t want her there. They didn’t like her there.

[00:45:21] They felt like they didn’t like my mom anyway and now they have just this old guard more like can’t we just have a normal day like I think is their approach and we want to park rapids and how much more loving reception rather than the people who have just known me or my family for 30 plus years. Said these guys were welcoming every time and they were happy to have Kelly even if they viewed it as her final days. Not knowing a murder would happen but just because she was sick with this thing ever felt like that made me feel much more spurned against the local connotation and like I did not have any warm fuzzy thinking about Wadena at that time. However that was that was how it went. My sister anyway. I preferred the northern migration just because she was the greatest and they were accepting of her. Did they show up. You know I don’t know if there was a memorial or a funeral or whatever the situation may have been. Did they you know show up and show support for you guys. They did they absolutely did. Once the death happened they came out and I think that has a way of just releasing anything even negative feelings you may feel justified in having her. And I feel like whatever the situation was they did come out in droves from her mom’s support. Good good.

[00:46:43] Yeah that’s that’s one of those instances where you can actually I mean as long as they were just doing it you know to be a good witness which some people do out of a sense of duty you know but that’s a place in life where you can start to see people’s humanity come out again. Yes. Yeah. You know that was really good. It was funny though to like just another tangent you don’t have to keep this up but my sister had such an impact on me simply in the way of life that she wanted me to experience days. And I remember having no agency or no voice as a young little child. I was just kind of part of the rank and file that operate in a household. We used to go to the video store and I would stare and stare and stare at like the Star Wars cover. I thought No Luke on the cover with his lightsaber just looks so awesome that I somehow a 10 year old earned a buck. I got a dollar and I went rented it without anyone’s permission. I just stared so long I couldn’t wait until I saw this movie. And I came home with it. My mom said well that’s that Star Wars. She was brought in at an era when that was popular and they would mention it from the platform. What is this ominous force. You know and so the measure is so she says no way not my house makes me take it back and feel ashamed. I just like the lady at the counter look at me just like you already. And I just remember like wanting to die and cry. I just slid it over and I said No I don’t need anymore. And I would never get my dollar back. I just had to return it. And then my sister had went to bat for me while I was gone.

[00:48:23] You know in this movie she had talked to my mom and said lives you know and you know she ran away and done what she wanted before she went Stockhausen’s and there’s nothing weird about it. There’s no guards there like demons. It’s just it’s just part of the sex fantasy sci fi thing you know. So then my mom softened a little under the. And I just remember like that was like the first time I can really really remember someone going to bat for me and saying you know my sister stood up and somehow they. I think the money just came from one of them now feeling bad but we went. We watched Star Wars and that was like a really off Emmy 10 year old boy. Right. That’s a big of life just watching hours on the left. But that my sister who I just met recently took a special interest in like stood up for me to enjoy this movie and then we loved them. Now we’re like one of my favorite things anyway. Yeah. That’s awesome man. Good for her and I’m sure it felt good for you to. It is really funny to talk about my sister I think about her because like for someone who just he basically came through your life so transiently me and only me had threatened to do these like two or three things that they were things that meant so much to me.

[00:49:39] It’s really like it just speaks to my heart my soul that she she came in touch stroke my face it will have the impact she had and then was gone but it was so like landmark moments in my life that would become like that love of Star Wars and like that laid the groundwork for when I met Steve he’s a star wars fan and he’s got the Lord of the Rings books which I don’t even want to read because there’s this word Lord and. And then slowly though you start to gain will be experienced through him running away and Steve was from New York so he experienced a much more than whatever. And these were the things that spoke to me was that I didn’t have to grow up get a pickup truck and just hunt deer. My whole life you know would be like this would the rural Minnesota if it’s not ice fishing and hunting it’s like where do you fit in. And I didn’t know that spoke to me. But that was the area I lived in and I didn’t know if it was because it who I really am. Or is it just because my dad wasn’t around so I never had that much male influence that says let’s get some guns and go Hunter you know kill stuff and I just felt like I don’t know if I am my more feminine maybe because my mom was always me and so I don’t have the machismo side or is it like. It’s not necessarily a feminist view a distorted view of masculinity that I’m sure you have been a sensitive guy. I didn’t know they could exist yet. My wife yeah. Every guy was supposed to never cry. Oh yeah. You know you have a firm handshake. I totally understand that.

[00:51:23] And there are segments of male society that I do not fit in because I’m not a guy who’s great with you know I’m not a hunter item. I’m in the same boat in a lot of ways you know. So I totally understand. And I think it’s the synchronicity of you know here. Yeah. Your sister floats into your life and has this impact and now you know here you are later in life and you know you need you need another Kelly. And in here Steve you know yeah Stephen A. And he’s there for you. Yeah and they both allowed me to be like listening to my heart and sensitive soul if that’s what was calling to me that was speaking to me for a reason if the star wars it was. See you play guitar. I want to play guitar. You know you had a rule ball kind of where he was a very spiritual. He moved to our congregation to help out. Yeah he had moved out from New York to help in a nearby area. But he felt like on this area things are good but I’m not doing all I want to go where they really need me. So we asked the CEO and the CEO said well after all that’s happened to Wadena you know there’s a bunch of young ones there. There’s a lot of confusion in this little direction there’s no good influences. Go to Wadena. So then he came to Agena and instead of being there is like anyone who would just be there to patch up work and obligatory this is the task I’ve give and so he was really kind.

[00:52:57] I remember hanging over his house and I just loved him and laugh at stuff that I had never heard people laugh at. He was like a sensitive soul. And he was different. He was different kind and nonjudgmental he didn’t know about my family or care about my family’s past like that meant anything about me. But I remember there was a time where someone had called on the phone we were over at his house hanging out. And that was like just get away because we do want to be near my mom and my stepdad Kenny at the time so we just would go Steve’s. And he left for a long time after school. He would come home from work. Oh yeah he was that kind of open door where it was really cool guy. And I remember we were hanging out though and he got off the phone and said I hate you guys this but that was some other people in the congregation that were more his age and he said they had players I forgot about hang out and then I know we were doing this but they have asked that you guys not be there you know. And I remember feeling like Redsox on those people who call and it took our evening away. They suck but more importantly like I was pretty used to it at this point of people thing you know basically scrambling for the kids table you know the adults are going to play now. But I wasn’t used to anyone having that level of compassion like you saw pain. He hated having to tell us that he even though he thought that the nights over there you know you didn’t.

[00:54:26] I just missed this guy cares and that was like a really big thing is to have someone just like to be around you. He like it either. Yeah yeah I’m here. Yeah. So anyway he just he just liked us and that was like the first person you know in this hall a long time that I felt like like to be around us and it just had to do it because all spiritually I can’t judge this person. Well yeah I mean you all have been down off the right word as pariah but do you all know the way your family moved around and you know all the stuff that was surrounding it. I mean it’s unfortunate but Jehovah’s Witnesses can be very hateful. And clicky and you know to go around feeling like you never fit in. As I experienced it as an adult when I was younger I did fit in. I was kind of like the oldest one and I guess I was the ring leader of our group at the hall or whatever. But you know when I was older and left that congregation and moved elsewhere I never fit in. And and it’s a very lonely place too. I think one of the loneliest feelings in the world is not to actually be truly alone but to be in a crowd of people and know that nobody there has your back or any interest in you. And so I understand what you’re saying there it’s very important to feel like you know somebody wants you to instead of. Yeah. And he was at that perfect bridge where he was a cool guy.

[00:56:12] So he was cool enough to get the young ones. Yeah but he was like he like me and he was an adult and he wanted to be around us just like I could go on and on about him and the impact he had but basically really continued the word that my sister had laid into the books I read the music I listened to all the things like universal he just he was a father figure when I hated my stepdad and I didn’t really know my real dad and he with a brother or my other brother was disfellowshipped and he was just everything and I meant a lot at that point my life. Now you did. MARTIN He was leader. He did it. I could go on about him but I should probably just wrap it up because it simply he was the best ever. He did everything for me. Yeah no that’s that’s beautiful that he showed up at that time and it could be that for you. I mean obviously he made a huge impact and I know man that’s just that that’s just a beautiful thing. It’s an it’s a shame that ultimately you know cults come in the way of things but good for him for being that person for you. You know when you needed it. And for for being that’s in it kind of it’s beautiful that he was that person. But doesn’t it also kind of almost in a way condemn everyone else on a level you know here a guy had a move there from somewhere else so that you could find one person you know. Yeah I never thought about it from that angle.

[00:58:01] I just knew that I was lucky to have him here at that point at that point in my life. I felt like George had given me that big brother no father. All those things that were being taken from Jesus by other brother was disfellowshipped and it was just so obvious his hand was in the matter. And even still a lot of good in me. And you missed the what I call mislike for whatever that’s worth. Well I think it’s cool but he put that as such a part of me wanted to be around him more than anything or anyone else in the world at that time. And it was like I was finding my place. The longer I stood near him I was finding my place and fitting more and more into what I call just like those whether he was in a lot of ways the laws that were just written across my heart like bull. This is this is something that’s written in my core. And I love that I can express it. I just didn’t know how I was going to say you know he didn’t he didn’t make you you. He just showed you that it was OK to be you. Yeah yeah. It showed me that there was a different way. It was okay to be yourself and seeing him as my personal miracle like that God put my life as a witness that everything really was probably a touchstone thing. I would say kept me in the organization. Now I had experienced something that I felt was miraculous and I was thankful for. And he was doing it and he was cool as all get out.

[00:59:40] And then when he got married I remember at that time he was you know starting to date this girl and I don’t think they were dating yet even. But it was a very charming story. But anyway long story short she was at our house and so was this Steve be from New York who came out to visit him in his new Minnesota sort of set up. Steve is visiting Steve a who’s already the greatest influence in my life and I get to meet the other person from New York. And then this girl’s coming over she’s visiting and Steve and her you know they just we’re talking like I was kind of cognizant of that you know feeling OK it might be something. Here she was from another Croatian village 60 miles away. But there was a time when she was going to leave and was rather late at night at 10 o’clock or whatever she still had our drive she goes out to her car. We think she’s gone. And then it comes back and says My car won’t start. And Steve just jumps up. All I’ll take you. And is that we are happy in the car. Eve is driving in the front seat with his girl he’s interested now in the middle seat was this guy who was traveling with Steve B at the time and came out from New York as well who were staying with her. There’s a breathalyzer and he was sleeping in the middle seat.

[01:00:59] And then Steve and I were in the back talking and I noticed that Steve had put him in the girl in the front were talking with their heads rather close and I could just see and see Steve and we start talking. There was a score between these two as well. Look at that are this close and have you noticed they’re talking about you and I like having to show it to whisper Steve’s got the music faded to the back so we can’t hear it. They have some up there late in the backseat of the van which was like his work van. You know he was a window washer as well. So that like he gave me the music that I play the books that I read and I became writer of my own music like he did and recorded an hour when he got married. He said Well I’ve got this you when they were currently building up to you or take over. And so I became a window washer as well and like a lot of my life is like just had his fingerprints are over who I am even if it was just him allowing me to be yo and then at that point I saw it as another miracle that here now on the very evening that they were having their long convert conversation that he had been taking her tell her that she had to work the next day so he was going to drive an hour out of the way an hour back just to give this girl a ride.

[01:02:16] And Steve and I were talking the actually all the while you know Weezer music a little too out and it was just like oh I’m not losing Steve I’m gaining this other Steve is now my spiritual Big Brother so I’ve really getting it cemented that Joe was not going to leave me destitute and having this this pattern of always being provided a spiritual Big Brother if you will is starting to really cement my mindset that I want to be a witness and be in this you know witness thing forever. And it was kind of when I went to New York with Steve be the first time with my brother Jonah we were out there and this is 82 and just after 9/11 too. So the city was a little different he said and there was more unity after the attack. Of course people tried to feel neighborly and compassion more so. But I feel like I would look at people and they tell me don’t look at it from the eyes and look at people. That’s just how I was being a Midwestern Minnesota boy. I would not say hello and they would start responding back on the subway. I started talking to this guy next to me and you know I am German in high school and he ended up working at some old German TV station out of New York and we started speaking German. And it was Steve B and his sister who really like saw this and I like these that you can go anywhere and there’s something just innocent and boyish charm about your persona that you can get people to open up. You can just they’re drawn to you. They want to talk to you like you’ve got a gift here where you want a gift of gab or whatever they were like they really were the first people that told me you need the pioneer.

[01:03:58] That was Steve was a pioneer and these people seeing the Minnesotan out of his setting in New York is still like drawing people who are normally closed art and don’t talk to each other on subways like that. Maybe they’re right so I might as well give this pioneering thing a shot. And it was just really kind of cementing me in cementing in that it’s going on so then so you’re on 18. Did you go back to Minnesota and pioneer. No I was baptized at 18 actually. Just like a month before Steve a marriage and then from the marriage Steve he gave the wedding talk. Now like the married couple went off and did their married life began. And from that get go. We had our bags packed. You just go with the baby. My brother and I write to New York. So I had only been about taste about a month but they were quickly shaping my goals for me gives me saying that you know you need to pioneer. Look at this child and something oh yeah I did that first month. But you know why not. You know maybe that is what they wanted. I’ll try it if nothing else. So I got back to Minnesota I was just like a week long visit in New York when I got back to Minnesota. I remember mentioning to my elders they started as they can auxillary did that for a while to make sure I could do it. And they had said Do it for a couple months and see if you still want to be a window washer. I had that like perfect employment where you can make your own hours and go on servers if you wanted.

[01:05:39] I had two roommates who were also oh by this point to my mom and Kenny decided they wanted a fresh start out of Wadena. So they moved away when I was 18 going on 19. Right around this time they. They got out like they went to Sioux Falls South Dakota and in an odd turn of events I stayed back so my family left me 15 rather then I moved out on my own right dating within a that I got I got a good thing got you at the window gave. I’m trying to start my own business in China. Get pioneering and I’m going to help this carrageenan. We just lost Steve a I’m gonna stay here and help out my roommates were like no other guys in the congregation obviously and my mom with her husband my stepdad Kenny my brother Jonah my nephew Zach all went to Sioux Falls South Dakota and I just decided I would stay behind I liked within and had the right goal for me so I was going to see it out rather than go with them. So then where are you where do you go from there. You know you’re not alone in this new Plaisir you’re pioneering living this you know bachelor life washing windows you got roommates and you know where did you go from there. Well my roommates actually the interesting thing was they said I could move in with them because the other roommate who was the original third was off at ministerial training school so he would be gone for three years.

[01:07:18] And so they just said well we’ve got space enough and he still had the room but they let me have like a guitar in the corner in a total full of clothes. Every day I would fall about my stuff and put it off in the corner again. And then all my other clothes were still in the garage because the garage was good enough for storage. I had only ever had one room everything I own fit one room in my house any way previous. So I just put around the garage and I remember like getting dressed for service in those early mornings where in the winter dress shirt was like so-called on your skin when you get the Santa Clause. And I would run out. I eventually learned that I should run out grab my suit out of the garage bring them into the house if they’re in the steamy room of the shower with me like they’ll warm up and then it’s not so bad getting dressed. You know the fact remains we got a place of our own. And the guy from ministerial services school he came back and said also you’re here now. And it just kind of worked out where they are you know they knew I was like a young entering manhood trying to do it through pioneering and so they made a lot of allowances for that. It wasn’t like an established business owner. GOODWYN Nawabshah yet but when you got those types of guys in I think my rant was that 120 POCs or something so I didn’t need a whole lot. I was just going about it Virgin I’ve got from there. Now that I no longer have you know mom breathing over my shoulder your parents are adults.

[01:08:47] When you’re a young person trying to spread my wings a little bit Steve and his wife Steve a they moved about an hour and a half away and I still would make regular visits to go visit them. And I started to take an interest in one of the girls in that congregation. And I remember the elders had warned me about this on this dating thing if you’re going to I was 19 but they were thinking it was too young and that I wasn’t ready yet that she wasn’t ready and they were right. And probably every count. But I was young I was 19 and I was ready to where I want to. And there is no one around to tell me I couldn’t anymore. So I had to place my own I had roommates. I was finding out about adulthood in everything and I started this relationship in the with us being young. We never got in serious trouble. But you know we either I ended up being removed as a pioneer so I never made that actual benchmark of getting the secret book you get for being a pioneer for one year. Yeah which made me dramatically sad because if you like took all my separate attempts to pioneer I would like well over a year consecutively so I figured I still don’t get the book and anyway so not that she distracted me. But I was young trying to find out what I wanted and didn’t really know which leads to you learning the truth. The authorization I should say they all they accepted it because they give you the space to make your mistakes.

[01:10:31] But then as we all know with eye witnesses when the relationship it working again at work. I was you know removed as a pioneer or whatever it is it just wasn’t exemplary. They are all these people who are in their nice you know like what is called passive aggressive like very Minnesotan way to just say well we never liked her we know we told just so like very I’m thinking Well where was all this information when you know. I don’t know if that’s a credit or a disservice to them but it’s one of those things where it’s true that one could save me from it or at least you let me learn it myself. I probably wouldn’t have listened. You never know what the right course is but sure. Anyway I had made some stumbles and falls and got myself removed as a pioneer. I remember the feeling of when I just went back to a pioneer instead of like this is what really touched me from Jennies episode was that simply being oh god fearing loving member of the congregation feels worthless. If you’ve ever been even a step above that you’ve gone out and you’ve come back to just rank and file it is like all you can imagine is you raise your hand to comment and people you think everyone’s just like. What’s wrong with him since the why is he not pioneering. What will he ever get back into it. It’s like you just feel like the pressure of do more do more do more and if you’ve done more of quit than never like Oh thank you so much for your service.

[01:12:01] We really appreciate the sacrifice there just like also at one point you were able to but now you’re not. What can you change to get back to that point. It’s like there’s never a thank you. No no thank you for your service. So then so I’m not trying to rush you but I do have somewhere to be at 2:00. OK. I don’t want to leave anything out from your story. Where where should we go next. You know you start pioneering again. No. Eventually I after being removed as a pioneer and struggling with some things and trying to navigate the waters of like life on my own. You know I had a job I was I also had a part time job at Target Johns and I was trying to build the windows up as it was doing both if I could. Then you just kind of you’re young and you’re just learning. And then I started to you know have pitfalls of elders would come and talk me more and more and you know the blinds would go down and you can’t go back to the situation right now. It was it was never like I was a good kid but I was I was struggling. My my friends were out everywhere else. My mom was somewhere else and everything else. And I was just trying to learn on my own and it wasn’t doings anything horrible I felt. But I just I felt horrible about some of the things I had done and they were largely minuscule.

[01:13:38] But anyway long story short I got to a point where I had said kind of within myself you know I had a couple of like worldly girls where we were kissing and such and I had some contact with other people who give you that. After my first relationship didn’t go well. I just remember getting in trouble being frustrated myself that why what’s wrong with me why can’t I get my act together in our lives. I’m very like girls are all I think about and I never never felt like there is anyone for me necessarily around in my area. Every knew my story from the previous one and there was a couple of good I was friends with a lot of girls too. And in my local corrugation there was one girl. But she was quite young for me at that point and I just felt like know I’m not going to ask anyone to eat for me like I’m. No I just I was a lost young man who in 2000 and 3 my dad died down there and we might have to do part one part two and you can salvage whatever audio is missing. Yes you are going to have Connally’s tourism in 2003 your dad died. How were you then. I was 19. That was like right around the time where after my first relationship ended. Even my ex she was like well I’m sorry about your dad. When she reached out to me at a start he’s don’t be a thing that you want to start up again because you’re showing compassion. It’s going to be this art again off again relationship. I don’t want to go through that with you again. And you know like just that and it was one of things where my mom had always been my life saving grace.

[01:15:25] I just loved it to death I took her side on every single thing in the world. I didn’t want to know my dad. I didn’t. I thought of him as what she thought of him as what I thought of him. I was only taught to I was only told things about him from her and people would see stories from within a Kingdom Hall they would say oh well we know your daddy is not the way your mom makes it sound and I’d be like right away like you guys know I’ve died. Believe me I’m well aware of how you think of my family. You’re on his side. Just discredit anything good they ever had to say about him. And then when he died I just remember sitting at his funeral and I this is so crazy so I’m forgetting so much more than going backwards. He after he was divorced from my mom got remarried wife gets a starship. He doesn’t initially elders who let him off the hook. They all get removed new Elder group meets with him. He is disfellowshipped. He comes back after a long time and when he comes back after a little bit of time he starts to say he’s anointed what really set my mom off that he thinks he’s wife. Yeah. So he starts the season knowing dead and he knew it because like something went with blood sausage when he was a kid and I don’t even know if that’s the real story or just my mom trying to make it seem so frivolous that it had no grounds and so now I see my dad as this like crazy.

[01:16:48] You know I don’t want anything to do with him. And then he dies and I went to the funeral and I was mourning him and I got to meet a lot of uncles and people who I didn’t know and the divorce. First of all kept me from knowing his side of the family and the religion as well kept me from knowing instead families. I’ve got all these people caring about me and telling me about my last that I they look like familiar faces because we share blood but I have no idea. And it’s just awful. The feeling of loss. I remember not crying not crying except for when I looked at my nephew Zach thinking he doesn’t get there nor his grandpa and I was so sad for Zach not an actually that I had lost my dad or that I knew enough to miss something that was now lost but where it really hit me was when his widow called me and said Well your father has a bunch of things he wants you kids to have an remember from where I live out to Jamestown North Dakota. Seemed like a world away and we went to go pick up stuff from the widow. A friend of mine in the creation and die. We drove out there loaded the van and we drove back. It was just like I was so dumbfounded with. She had some good stories about him and he was her husband and I just remember thinking Well first of all you were supposed to be this vile woman that her mom hated and that wasn’t quite so. And now I’m starting to think everything else.

[01:18:09] Maybe maybe the guys who were friends with my dad maybe it wasn’t quite so either. Not that I disbelieve. But I see she comes from a totally different relationship with him than anybody else. Maybe add some Sturton to anyone there. I had been ETN for like a full year. The order for protection was done and he had been reinstated. There was no reason I couldn’t talk to him. I didn’t invite him to my baptism I didn’t write a Kargar or anything to him. Then I just feel like now he’s gone and it hit me like that already. It was two and a half hours away or something. I think the drive and I feel like just like you know that’s not the end of the world. Two and a half hours away when I had that graph and there was nothing to drive an hour and a half there vaccine night three hours. And I really felt like I had failed him as a son and I just don’t you know even if he was a jerk I should have taken the time to investigate and find out for myself why I really really beat myself up for saying I should have proven he was a jerk to me rather than just a doorway and with you and to man on the side. And now I can’t investigate it at all. To even have the investigation. I feel like I was just robbed of having a father. He hated it. You were you were you were robbed that. I would say that the word should is a slippery slope.

[01:19:30] And that you were just a kid and so you didn’t have the tools at the time you know if you were who you were who you are today maybe you would oh yeah you would have reacted differently. Yeah but you can’t. Again I think it comes back to that that thing the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach us that everything is in our control that that that everything comes down to choice and you know you can blame yourself and say well you know why don’t I do things differently. But there’s a there’s a great quote that really helped me with some things that I had regrets about and the quote is something like acceptance is letting go of the hope that it could have been any different and that quote meant a lot to me because in retrospect I can look at things and say oh man you know I could have done this or I should have done that. But accepting it for what it was I was doing my best at that time. You David were doing the best that you could have done at the time as a kid and I understand having some regrets and wishing it was different but it couldn’t have been different because you were a kid and you could have done better. I’ve been through lots of therapy ever since the last couple years especially counselling and I have forgiven myself. Is this still a hard thing to feel like now. You know I just don’t know whether to give myself away. And actually like are at whole or side no I don’t know you’re not like I don’t want to push anything or even preach to you from but from my experience my new found spirituality.

[01:21:33] I actually there’s a psychic who had called my wife landed up for this thing and I went in super skeptical going to you know all that stuff scared the life. Oh heck yeah. Yes. And she was like within a few minutes she’s a Christian psychic who talked to the Archangel Michael protecting me in clearing the area. Any negative energies. And then she starts starting. And my dad’s just like I give pounding on the door to get through to me. And I just it was like it was one of those things where I felt like an all you had to say was goodness. And she didn’t know the situation like it was legit to me just a spiritual experience where some saw had broken through and told her that my my. He was sorry he wasn’t there for me and he was here in this life on this earth. He was messed up he had a lot of issues. He had things he couldn’t control and he hated when he couldn’t control things and she said that all these things you were saying and it was so him and she asked me about like other stuff and I just thought this is a legitimate psychic like this is there’s I mean I’ve always been with those types who knock on the door on whether or not there’s a creator spirit around. But what we would say demons any demon to be uncanny thing that you can’t explain it away. And that just that there’s something higher energy whatever you want to call it the source of life was not a single person sitting and judging people for their sins.

[01:23:02] But I feel like oh my god this was this is what I wanted to hear and it was very healing. And it was so authentic and it was just really really part of and part of the healing process for me. I know my gay counselor she told me it’s not your fault you were a kid and you were equipped and if your mom was you know actively poisoning this person you know you were against this person. What else are you supposed to do. Right. Well it’s. No body is all good or all bad to her. And obviously your dad did have some issues. But that is that does not define him as a totality of his existence. And I’m glad that you got to have that experience. And I mean I think we all want. You know we all want to to end on a better note. And I’m glad that I’m really glad that you’ve been able to you know get into therapy and and process some of this stuff because I mean you’ve been through a lot of heavy stuff and I’m just I’m not I’m happy that you got. I’m glad that you can see that. And again it comes back to that. Intellectually you can see that you you couldn’t have done any better but emotionally you still have emotions about it. You know I mean when my dad died I cried not for the dad that I lost but for the dad that I never had. Yeah. Because my dad wasn’t always great. And I think that’s you know that’s it’s only natural to have those feelings.

[01:24:59] And you know you can always look in hindsight you can always figure out how it could have gone better but you didn’t have the tools. And he was the adult in that situation. You know he could have reached out differently as well. He has some he you could say you just as easily say that he has a responsibility in the way things went. But you know what he probably didn’t have the tools either. No no. You know he was a product of whatever environment he came from or whatever biology or psychology that he naturally had. And you know in the end everybody in those situations was doing the best they could. Your mom was doing her best. You were doing your best. He was doing his best and everybody was working with what they had. And unfortunately sometimes our best still hurts. Yeah. You know that’s very profound. You know that’s that’s just all you can that’s all you can do. You know sometimes you give your best and and you’re still going to end up hurt. I want to thank you for listening to David story today. Part 2 will be released next week in Please subscribe so that you can get it in all of these stories automatically as they’re released. Each time please also show David and other support by going to my Web site. It’s shunned podcast dot com and if you go to the episodes page there you can leave a comment for any of the people who are telling their story. They can not only read but they can also respond to your comments.

[01:26:45] So just go to shunnedpodcast.com and go to the episodes page and you’ll see an individual post for each story and you can reply and comments on those stories. You can also find links to things on there that have helped each person as they were waking up and leaving the cult if you want to hear my personal story. You can listen to a podcast called thisJ.W. life or go to the Web site thisjwlife.com. And that was my personal story. It’s a nine part series. And you can if you’re not familiar with the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses you can really learn a lot there about how they function what they teach. Alongside my personal story one final way to show support is to leave a review on iTunes just leaving a five star review leaving your personal comments whatever it is that impacted you. This helps other people to find the podcast so that they can get the help that they might need as well. So I’ll send this one out the way I send them all out love others do no harm and go be happy.