Episode Seven – Part 2 – Sexual Abuse and Jehovah’s Witnesses – David’s Story

David Part 2.mp3

[00:00:01] Welcome to the shunned podcast. Today’s episode is the story of David. Now this episode and the ones that follow are going to be a little different. David had a lot to share. And so this episode is actually going to be his episode is going to be three parts. There will be two regular episodes and then I’m going to throw in a bonus episode as well. The bonus will consist of some things that we talked about really before we got to David’s story before we really started outlining everything and putting it in order. We had a conversation that I think was pretty important and that some people need to hear and I hope that it helps others. I will warn you that some of the story that we’re about to delve into is intense. It does deal with the matters of sexual abuse this is a very important topic. The Watchtower organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses has been under fire recently through some documents that showed up on a faith leak site. Through that story being picked up by Newsweek by the Daily Mail through the Australian Royal Commission through the process that were held at war with the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses in New York this is a topic that was not talked about inside of the organization as we were Jehovah’s Witnesses. This is something that for an organization that claims to be led by God was largely ignored and that it has taken outside influences to explain.

[00:01:51] For science as for psychologists for four therapists to get to the root of things like sexual abuse how it affects people how predators really are wired and and how they act. And for some reason the organization led by God supposedly claiming to be led by God did not understand this. However these things have come to light and this is a topic that needs to be discussed. It needs to be brought to light so that people can heal. And so that’s a lot of people can know that they’re not alone. So David was courageous enough to share his story so that he could help others feel less alone. And I want to. David was gracious enough to to do this so that I could share it with you. These episodes are going to be a little different. They’re not the normal way that stories are told on here. They will be more conversational. It will be a conversation between him and I and he’ll hopefully you’ll take away quite a bit from it. I hope that this information or this story that you don’t just come away with it let’s not boil it down to just being this one aspect you know aspect of sexual abuse and the conversations surrounding it. David lived a lifetime of experiences in just a short time. There is a lot to learn here David is a beautiful soul for allowing himself to be vulnerable and to express these things and then I mean you just see throughout his story that he’s a pretty awesome person a great human being. And sadly well maybe not sadly but there is a lot of the most sincere people in the organization known as Jehovah’s Witnesses that leave.

[00:03:49] There was something that I’ve noticed since getting out and that and learning the stories of people that it is a lot of the people who are the most heartfelt and sincere that end up leaving the organization known as the truth so I want to thank David for sharing his life with me so that I can share it with you. And without further ado let’s go ahead and get to David’s story. I’m not a high school. My family in 2002 moves away. The years of 2002 2003 and 2004 is like my introduction into young manhood if you will. And it’s also like it’s hard for me to put any of these pieces together because they’re all like a chessboard moving at the same time. But I just see that the whole thing a turbulent time a turbulent in terms of who am I. Where is my place in this. What am I doing. You know and then my family moved. I felt good because I was out from my mom’s watchful eye and I could be a young man. Hey I got a place of my own with some roommates and that was all very good. And some said material. Simultaneously happy happening was in 2003. That was when my dad died and I was living with the same roommates and that would have been October 30th 2003. Yeah and Lamber the elde I was getting ready for service and the elder had come by and there was during the CEO visit actually so he was there to do and they came up and told me that my dad had passed like eight thirty or something right before service. I just remember making my plans. Things are different today.

[00:05:40] I had calls with family and they were very sympathetic. But you know he was working on a car and that Jack slipped out and it killed him. And I just remember feeling like oh my dad’s gone. But there was this weirdness to it because I didn’t really know who I was supposed to be missing at that time. But I knew something of great magnitude had happened. And I remember also at the same time my girlfriend at the time was just he was on again off again uptown and it was such a crazy world for me because I was 19. And to be dating this girl I had never had a girlfriend before. I had no business dating. I didn’t know enough about who I was to actually pick a good partner. But here’s the funny thing. Like the witnesses put such stock in titles you know wear off. Her dad doesn’t like me. He doesn’t think I’m ready or mature enough say that to my Pioneer face. And then all of a sudden he has to say you know as dumb as that sounds. I was 19. He should have sat us down and said you’re an adult and you’re an adult. I can’t stop this. I don’t have to like it but there was like this I have to take a backseat because he’s spiritually ranks higher than me or something like some stupidity like that where these people had lived so much life they should have just said I don’t care. I know you’re an adult and I know you’ve got this title attached to your name. But spiritual qualifications do not make you a good partner for such as such.

[00:07:12] This isn’t you like I would probably rebell and get through it anyway but I just think that that was so crazy that I basically was able to tell people I was mature enough to be at 19 because I was a pioneer a questioner question you can’t question my immaturity of Jehovah approved me to this standing when in reality now I look back and I think you know the brothers in New York probably just got a letter recommended from my elders that says David wants to give use 60 or 70 hours of his time voluntarily I’m sure they said it’s great. Pat him on the head tell him yes he Jehovah approves. Like oh what else are they going to say. If there’s no privilege to it they’re just like he wants to give us his time yet you know placate him and think they prayed over your individual and Joe is like a holy spirit down upon your application so that you you were confirmed as a pioneer. Yeah. Makes you wonder if anyone’s ever been turned down and wants to give them that much time. Was their hideout. Many have yeah. Anyway so I’ve got that going on. And it was on again off again and I’m starting to get fed up with the whole dating this girl I’m mad. And I remember when my dad had passed away she got wind of it naturally is where it always spreads. It started sending me text about how sympathetic she was and she was so from class.

[00:08:39] And I remember at that time feeling like Please do not be using this as a springboard to get us back into each other where I can’t I’m volleyball right now because of this. And I would wish your well wishes. But like if this is something that’s going to just get us texting and talking again where I let my guard down and I get back into that mess that I just know is not what we need there. And what I need specifically that was like a turbulent time where I couldn’t tell what everything had an angle and I didn’t know of like what was going on in it. I missed you know I missed out on ever really getting to know my dad and he had thought he was anointed and I had heard like ran up to his death when we went to the funeral. It was like sitting there and they never talked about him being anointed and then you find out that like I guess they weren’t even taking his comments at the time of his death in his kingdom hall where he raised his hand they would just pass over him. I remember thinking what a nice witness you know where all his worldly brothers and sisters were there and they got to hear what you know Gary’s hope for the future was and how he viewed the world and God and spirituality and his path and his chosen life. And I felt like this the perfect thing what a good witness for all these family that I don’t really know. Their faces look the same.

[00:09:52] Their eyes look like my dad when they smile I can see that we’re family but I don’t know them like my mom and dad got divorced when I was young and they weren’t witnesses and they were his side which I live with her. So why would I. There was very little contact with them ever. But I still felt like I wanted to help them. And then now I realize if any of those people had like really known probably how my guy was you know his hope for the future and how the people viewed him up until his death it was kind of like I don’t know. I just cannot sit with me. Well that was portrayed as this thing at a funeral and like behind the scenes machinations that the hall was will move pretend like it doesn’t exist because we can’t trust his comments anymore. He’s too off the wall you know. Oh yeah. And I just felt so there’s a lot yeah I feel I just felt like between my Dad my girlfriend and everything else that was going crazy. My family had moved away. Steve A my greatest role model influence at that time. He lives about an hour and a half away. I still make pretty regular trips to visit him. And the good thing was that the girl I was dating was going to his hall so when I was visiting him. That’s how we kind of got close. The girl. But one that fell apart. Steve was still there and he’s like Ardy I’m sorry. We saw this happening but you know we thought we’d give you your jaw the length of leash to be your own man and learning who goes by. I wish you would have asked me what we could have thought about.

[00:11:18] He was an elder at her hall at the time in I just remember feeling that they had friends and store supported our this 2003 period also was the first time I went out to New York by myself. The very first time with Stevie was right after Stevie’s wedding and from the wedding the two of us went out there together and knowing without incident it ever happened. But then Steve said you know I’d like to bring it back where it’s just you know you and I and I can show you more the city and a longer thing. And when I went out there the second time everything went just normally as planned. You know we went out in service we met people we went to you know visited Bethel and all that. And then I remember this was the first incident where he had molested me. Was the night before the flight back home. We were in New York. I don’t remember the time or the days exactly but it was either July or August and it was just unbearably hot. We were sleeping on the floor of the apartment because I over the wood was cool but no sweat soaked into wood. So I was laying in my own sweat. And the fan was isolating and I had fallen asleep some time. I mean he was kind of up on the futon couch that put fold out nearby. But we were in this one room where we’re still just really really high and sometime in the middle in a war. I awoke I became awake and I was aware that his hand had slipped in like an open fly boxers like just like you’d slide it into your pocket I guess it was on my private parts.

[00:13:02] And I remember like just wanting to freak out and die but feeling like I got no answer I got nothing for this right now. Whatever is happening. Is beyond me and am I dreaming is this real. Is this like the heat nightmares or something. And I was so hot inside you like I was tingling No I really wanted to just implode like disappear. And I couldn’t I couldn’t even make sense of it. And I remember thinking has this been 10 seconds or 20 minutes. I have no idea I just kind of came to it it’s happening and it was like the most crazy thing you could think that someone I trusted in a in a year and like the big city is right outside I’m far from home. I’m here all alone. And this is the person I really like. You almost feel guilty for even thinking that this is real and happening to you. How could I say that about my friend Jane and naturalistic thing. But you feel it and you just thought go back to sleep go back to sleep go back to sleep. And I couldn’t move. And I couldn’t say no I couldn’t speak up. And I was afraid that he was going to hear like or just notice I was awake maybe my breathing was faster my heart was pounding so loud I thought for sure he could hear you can hear you know I’m up. He knows I’m awake. I’m going to be found out. If I can lay here pretend I’m asleep. You can just go on like it never happened or something.

[00:14:34] Remember that going to cut myself. No no no I understand. I remember the day like it kind of started to drift in the apartment I after I had rolled over I had kind of to my mind if I pulled it out that I mustered enough courage to just act like I had rolled over my mostly and kind of got to my stomach where it’s over it’s not happening anymore and I had just rolled over. I was out of the reach and I was everything else. But there isn’t like I didn’t go back to sleep and just lay there thinking I remember slowly becoming aware that like there was an awful leading feeling because of the heat and it was white but it wasn’t like visible I can just hear it for hours. And it started to take shape. And then other things in the rooms that take shape and then light blue light coming in then you can see everything. And I remember we went to the airport. He walked me down the terminal like he had paid for the ticket and got me out there and everything so I felt you know very I don’t know I felt very like I had to be grateful and gracious. But something had changed. And so I stand by and I walked away went to the plane. And then he called myself shortly thereafter and said what was with that. Yes we weird. You know they’re weird today and you leave and say goodbye. Give me a hug you just left me there at the one where like people without a ticket are allowed past the point and it’s called by Assad.

[00:16:07] I remember apologizing for acting weird and tried to pat Russia off as I’m like yeah I should have said goodbye like I was jilted what I should. I had every right to say Euroleague anything I would’ve wanted to do well within my rights to say or not say at that point. But I remember just giving him the easy Oh I just had a bad dream last night and I’m just going a bit off you know which. That was the point. I think that dream excuse entered my brain because that’s what I had passed off sure according to it. And I tried to convince myself for a long time that they were dreams and that it was just this maybe I was weird maybe there was something wrong with me. I don’t know if I’m gay or not. I don’t. I was aroused but I came to in that state. I don’t know how it was. Did you think I enjoyed it like this is like so messed up on a million levels and I don’t know. Nothing could have prepared me for what to do or how to feel or even that in my imagination. That would be a thing. And then are going to internalize it and it’s easier to think that if it’s you that you must do something then it is time to really give credence to the fact of how out of control that situation was and that someone else could do that to you. Yeah. And the thing is I like Kim too like you as a friend. You know what to think about someone you like. You think I must be wrong.

[00:17:40] They make me do good. There there. Personally I enjoy in every other moment of my life except for that. Well it’s a big one. You know that’s how a predator would groom someone. I remember thinking about it where nothing happened for a long long time and then my brother was getting baptized. I can remember the year but we were at a convention where we all know baptisms Jehovah’s Witnesses we bundle up together to share share beds and Jonah and his friend Ryan and also to our congregation were in one of the beds. We had a double clean young single guys called conventional splitting costs. And again Steve and I were in the same bed. And I remember like and remember this time it had been so long that I had really gotten good at convincing myself what had happened in New York was some sort of maybe dream right. You would surely have happened again since then. So at this point I was not afraid of that even being a possibility it was like a one off. And then that night the night before Jonas baptism started happening again in that bed. And I remember just again thinking freeze if I can find a convenient way to roll over at the sleep cars sluggishly just like make it stop make it stop and I’m praying to Jawaher that you know how someone pulled the fire alarm even if it’s a prank or have something an emergency.

[00:19:14] If I had any voice I would scream out in Ryan and John Boehner were in the bed next to me and we would cause a scene or maybe the most unlikely thing have a fire truck try to the building or a meteor or something. Make this stop and it’s happening again. And now that was the first moment the real dread of it confirmed the first one. Yeah and really reminded me that no this was the real thing. It’s real and it’s happening again. It was to get a conviction. And I remember at that point it was easy to move on. There was about Jonah he was getting baptized and so the attention was off of me. And I just wanted that I wanted invisibility of having the attention off of me. So all this was going on in my personal life and then I didn’t have a bad relationship. I must have all this right start. There’s worldly girls and I’m very curious and to be honest not produce sexually charged person I have a high drive and years ago the first time I looked through the baptism questions you the elders the third series they had asked me Was there anything that would prevent you from going back to getting baptized. Can you think of anything he said. Well I confessed to him that I had masturbated and had a problem with that and I remember that was terribly humiliating but also feeling like very proud that I had those words left my lips. I did the right thing and then he thanked me. He told me while that that’s something I nobody can ever know that that’s only you. That’s between you it’s a private matter and I would have had nothing to.

[00:21:05] So you’re coming forward as that shows me you’ve got a good heart and you’re honest beyond belief that you can go with free of getting caught like on your own. Confess something that personal. We’re going to do all we can to help you and we’re going to get you through this letter and I’ll talk to everybody else so we’ll see where your baptism stands this moment. I remember like a little bit later I got a call from him in my step dad took an they had turned to me and he said well he says that at this time you won’t be getting baptized David because of the issue of masturbation but he said because of your honesty you will go far in this organization and they want to help you get past it. And I always felt like that I hung on to that like all foreigners organization. The elders really like I did do the right thing. And I remember like this as a side tangent backwards. But the late are they can help me. Good. I’m going to be done with this. I’m sick of having a good period of seven days and then relapse and then you get it you know you feel like you’re making progress and it’s real accidents relapse and then it’s Oh you mean like every brother in the organization. Yes. And I would imagine to me I felt like I had the worst case in the world and there was another that not allowed to talk about it because you know everyone had aimed for it. Yes in my private life. This is going to sound awful but being completely honest like there were conventions where I was in that place for eight hours a day the convention bathroom. I didn’t care.

[00:22:41] I was very sexually charged as a young man and they can give them all that’s not off limits. They’re like we we we laugh about it. There will be a lot of witnesses if they hear this though just think oh I know right. Kind of what witness he was that bad witness who gave you that if you would even Sacko it. But my struggle was a real thing and I hated every time it was happening. Like I needed it and I wanted them to help me. And what they do they Xerox some garbage out of like a watchtower article 4B and then told me to beat the young people ass book. And I thought we I thought they were going to meet with me and we’ll pray over me or tell me about their personal experiences or something that would really help you know for days. There’s your answer. This is not a good friend. I could have printed off something like this at home. That’s their help. I remember very let down by that. And so like in my mind I thought Paul thanks everybody for all that help you like God loves a Xeroxed and stapled together five sheets of pages. Like I just felt like there was no one really cared to help me. They just wanted to say please don’t come back and tell us you still have this issue because we want about Tyce. That’s what they were hoping just put it behind you. Yeah let’s go forward. Not that I actually was struggling with something and the emotions hurt or anything.

[00:24:06] You know heaven forbid they they let you know that you’re not alone you know that those men could have on on a on a real level and let you know that it was something that they struggled with or whatever but instead they left you on an island and gave you a sterile article from Jehovah’s Witness propaganda. And the funny thing was though for who I was at that time as upset down there was I decided I was going to take it to heart and read the young people last book which to make matters worse starts off with this the Apostle Paul has an affliction in his flesh does what he doesn’t want it to do. He uses it was to do this but his flesh is weak and keeps doing that. And that was like mantra and I remember when one of the elders had asked me about that and I had said well the Apostle Paul he had a problem we don’t know what it was but his flesh was weak and he said that and the guy’s honest to god reaction was he laughed like chortle like a quick snort like I’m sure it was masturbation just not life. I mean I mean I’ve made this like I’ve taken your crummy article to heart here and that was part of it. That meant something to me was that even the Apostle Paul had a weakness in his flesh and me for having this weakness. Like I can take. I identify with something. And going like. I just felt I wasn’t taken serious and there was not the heart and tenderness that I felt should have been shown by a shepherd. Oh and for whatever that’s worth.

[00:25:38] Fast forward years later I pushed the boundaries. I was very good at not committing adultery or fornication because I did value my virginity but I was very into girls of course and that I let things happen were loose conduct and some kissing you know heavy petting that got out hand. I of course went and turned myself in to the elders about it and I remember feeling like this will be it for me. I finally get to learn my lesson and I told them everything. I hit rock bottom and they sent me out of the room Metcher judicial meeting and they asked me about it and they said everyone. I remember when they sent me out of the room. I went upstairs and the rest of the hall was dark because it was late at night. Lights were off they were using the hall meeting hall. They were just using the one room and I sat on the stairs just crying and eating everything and laid back like you know sitting on the stairs and laid back on the floor. I started looking up and in my mind I have a very like analog Anna analogy’s and visual mind and like interpreting things I remember seeing the exit sign lit up in bright red and then the speaker and the voice comes out of it in the Kingdom Hall and an air vent that moves the temperature of everything and I don’t like to air it is like Jehovah’s voice spearow the speaker is like his voice and you know all this is moving these elders right now and he’s using their voice and his Holy Spirit to guide this decision. And here’s the exit sign.

[00:27:12] I’m on my way out. They’re going to establish it. Me and I just do it in case of a. I went down and Millais summoned me back to the room and I just knew it. And then even though it wasn’t fornication or adultery. They told me it was loose contact that there was a pattern of and it wasn’t turning around or the conversion of it like I was. Instead of running from bad things the way Joseph did I was pushing the envelope getting as close as I could without crossing a line and such a pattern shows that you know I should be disfellowshipped and so I felt like I finally got what I deserve. But it was the it was the reset button I needed. It was the start over I had needed and I was I can learn. Now I can really feel like I can. I know Orlick instead of floundering in this middle ground I’ve bottomed out and I could start climbing back up rebuilding my life. It was just a crazy time because now this all Shippen everyone knew I was pretty popular in my house.

[00:28:16] A lot of the younger ones in the crowd and people don’t know there was weird things took as my best friend at one of the things that I find hard to as we had before I was disfellowshipped like he he and I had tried pot with one of the neighbor guys in a neighboring apartment complex once and I don’t like drugs or alcohol I’m very anti substance but you’re curious about these things and my buddy had told me that he had tried several things in the past like whippets and other likeT.G. experience stuff and I’m okay well if you do and I’ll go along I can learn. I remember doing it the first time I tried pot and I remember feeling this like I’m not a smoker. I don’t know how to inhale. So I did it wrong because this feeling this can’t be will all the rage is about. This is the dumbest thing ever and there is no joy there’s no joy in this. This is. This is not what everyone thinks is so funny and they all talk about it. So then later I talk and he is like whoa. Go try together make sure you in. We tried it again and it was the same thing and I was like that was when it really hit me like oh yeah this is just what it is. It sucks it’s like not it’s not for me. Drugs are not for me that’s just super relaxed thing like I don’t need the ultimate I have a good time. I felt better before all this and it’s new. There’s nothing about this that is worth pursuing or paying any extra money than being the normal non-smoker filled air I was breathing 20 minutes ago and that was when I made that decision. I remember I just fell shit also feeling like I never told him. You know I never felt like my soul ship was also paying for the state. He gets a fresh start here because now I’ve taken it and and you know that secrets goes with me and someone’s paid for my actions and it’s me and everyone gets a fresh start. Everyone gets a fresh slate.

[00:30:10] It’s crazy as that sounds. That’s how I felt like it was the absolute best thing for me that I could be disfellowshipped and just start over. Get back and like Paul everything’s forgiven everything’s back to square one. The reality of how my whole shipment went. There wasn’t much different. I eventually had a worldly girlfriend but it was never sexual again. But my virginity did still mean something to me and I remember trying to convert her all the time and talking about glitter and beatings and I also had a pretty full time job where I would show up to a lot of the meetings in my work uniform and have to go right back to it and the elders eventually you know they watch my pattern for like a year and a half and during that year and a half like I’m very into music and there’s a lot of songs that meant a lot to me and like you lose all your friends. Like I think my whole having that girlfriend at all was just you need a dope conversation someone to talk to you to go and see was more than anything because it wasn’t a sexual relationship. From what I remember just like there’s a song by Belle and Sebastian called the boy done again and that’s a brilliant listen it’s sad as heck. There’s a writer who says hang your head in shame and cry your life away and I can’t even tell you how many times. Like I would sit in my apartment singing that loudly just bawling and pounding my chest feeling like it was just anthemic.

[00:31:42] It was an anthem for me to feel like the boy didn’t run again. Hang my head in shame and cry my life away. And I just wanted it to be better. I wanted it to be better. I thought that what I was doing was going to pay for every war. But then I see them around town and they’ve all known me and they see me as well the girlfriend and I know that they assume that it’s a full relationship as if anyone else would have in the world. And I was thinking you know I see the pain in their faces and some of them have the courage to smile at me because they think encouraging me will keep me coming down the right path and some just give me that Teflon glass that slides past you and it never locks on at all. And then I feel like all this shunning and I’m hurting a lot of them are best friends and they’re hurting me they’re hurt I’m hurting them and this is the only time alive I was ever seriously they were ever pondered suicide. Was that first disfellowshipping. Because also in the apartment I lived in now Steve B lived in the apartment behind me. He had moved to Widener. He had contracted leukemia and like Minnesota has a lot of good health benefits and so he had made his home in New York. Now to Minnesota and lived in the apartment complex behind me and there was another incidence. I’ve already gone into a lot of detail on those incidents. So the third one largely the same but it happened in my apartment and raped.

[00:33:09] I was disfellowshipped but one day after he had left a note on my door or something and I went and I talked to him and I told him I brought it up. I said I’m going to bring this up so third time when this is when you are disfellowshipped This is what I am disfellowshipped. Well what happened was after you. Well there’s a weirdness to it too because the story goes it’s not the story of how it was. I was in my apartment and I left one day and I noticed these headlights behind me. Right. And so I would have no big deal. I went down to the gas station and I bought a porno mag and I was going to you know masturbate continue on my debauched ways and feel guilty and hate myself as was my partner. Sure. And that night I got a knock on the door and I had like a 13 inch TV with the VCR combo and the whole headphone jack right there. I had my headphones plugged in so I knew he being still a witness and a friend of mine and you want them to think I was just falling off the map was you wanting to hear of course that I was what I was watching and the knock on my door. I went and I answered it. He tells me. I don’t know what’s going on. It has got us like really bad headache and I’m not feeling well I think you’d be OK. Can I just sleep here. I’m not alone at all. And I hid behind my disfellowshipping watch and maybe I shouldn’t I should have had more courage. But at least I said no.

[00:34:42] I said no like I’m disfellowshipped you need to go back to your apartment. At least it came in handy for maybe the first time. Yes. You know and this was only the three incidents before that but more importantly I just thought well I went back to my bedroom remember thinking how did he know that I had any of this like he was like the next day he left and letters. I was trying to help you like typed up pomodoro like just use spurned me and turn me away when I went in with help that he was going to redeem me or save my soul from the pornography. So he must have followed me to the gas station. I started to realize Zami at that magazine I’ll buy it and then go. And now to my head that he was following me around and so like a couple nights later I decide to test it and see what limits he has or how far do you take this so I’d start driving around late at night. And then I start noticing there. Sure enough the headlights are following me and they’re legging back like they never get right behind me. They like turn after I’m about at the next block and I decide Well there’s a town like 45 minutes away. I’m in a really make him think What is he up to. Where’s he going you know so I started heading towards that town but the thrill of that chase and the fun of that game grew off about 20 minutes away.

[00:35:56] Those that are a circle back in a smaller county in between the two where he was stuck at a stoplight and as I circled back I gave him a very big recognizing wave that I knew it was his vehicle and then I started going back home. When I got home there was already a message on my phone from him long weepy and apologetic and saying it over across the bounds of our friendship and he was just worried and he was so out of line to follow me and he just worries he’s a stalker. Oh yeah. You mean that’s a thing. That’s why it’s like I’d struggle with knowing or not. When I was an isolated incident he was in love with me in some way. To have this level of its power all of was power. So you know what is the difference between the power of what he did to you when you were asleep and then of course he exercised his power over you when he was at the airport and he made you apologize and then he exercise his power. When he left a note on your door and tried to make you feel bad and then he exercised his power by stalking you and following you. Yeah that’s a terrifying person. It is not and I felt very good to the thought I had that could take voicemail was this cordless like little thing that he actually gave to me. He said Are you using this anymore. Do you like a landline phone.

[00:37:24] I said sure and my mom back and forth at the time would say hello hello like two or three guys before she’d call me and he was a computer programmer he like built computers and did hard drives and stuff and I’m not sure if this is possible or not but she says there would be times where I would hang up and she would hear a second hang up or like like the second pick up or maybe breathing that wasn’t me. As I was talking she thought she thought she could hear something Armande but I always assumed it was background noise on my end maybe and only later when she left. I thought I wonder if he had it where anytime I got a phone call. He was privy to it by pointing it up on his computer or something I had no idea. I mean heck this guy moved in to the apartment right behind you. It’s like that itself is a power move. That guy is. I’ve never even thought of it that way. He didn’t have to ask was he visibly sick. I mean not exactly he means he would think would have maybe I’m wrong I’m certainly no medical doctor but you would think he would have some sort of physical manifestations of not only the illness but the treatment. So was he. Well he was going to a guy and he knew the doctor’s name which you know I’m not I can’t confirm or deny but I believe he was sick he was seeing a specialist in Fergus Falls for like an hour away for doctor appointments and I do know that he like loved tennis and loved biking and he would go and play tennis with some of the other brothers out in the hall. And then he started to say once that was all he can do. I’m too tired to sleep all the next day he was just wiped out I guess.

[00:39:11] And so he was less and less. He was always sleeping it seemed like he started to be if not visibly like falling apart sick. He started to be less than what we knew him as so I’ve never questioned I guess his sickness. And eventually it went into full remission and the first thing he did was got out of Minnesota. When I went to Colorado and Washington and just how much he traveled I just always wondered was it some sick like love he had for me and being a witness makes no allowance for being gay. So he I don’t know. I felt like let’s let’s go ahead and establish he was sick. But what I know is that I fully consider Irma’s like you predator. Everywhere he moves where there are people going through what I had gone through unfortunately I was just like one of the houses in the tornado’s path so to speak. Why would why would he stop after you. I don’t know. I don’t know. I just felt like and I hate to say I was a special case because I know that sounds so messed up but I felt like all of this showed that he was maybe in love with me or had thought that more. I don’t know. I just feel like Zirus I don’t know. I don’t know. I have no idea I guess it’s hard for me to understand it you I as you. It’s not like you can ask him.

[00:40:28] You know that’s that’s part of the whole that’s part of the whole play you know is to leave you so leave your mind so blown that you can’t figure out what it is. God I hate him I hate him for he. And it’s hard for me to say that because I don’t want to see anyone because that in itself is I hope they have a power over me that makes me hate them. And I remember like I’m kind of close the book on him so I have to keep going back to. But I’ll come back to when I was disfellowshipped to my apartment and I was like suicidal for the first time in my life. I’m hurting my mom. My roommate sees me and I come to the meeting no one wants to look at that roommate but my neighbor apartment neighbor Steve Irwin sees me at all doing is hurting all of that and maybe I should just like just go down and lay on the railroad tracks in the middle of the night or something like hurt them all in one fell swoop. Get it over with and then they can just move on with their lives. I’ll be gone from him. Stop hurting them every time they see me you know I’ll at Wal-Mart or whatever the situation. I needed that I was hurting them with my disfellowshipping and it was like I wanted it to stop. I remember telling him this was like the last conversation we had when we were associates. I went over and talked to him and told him that I had had all these dreams and God being disfellowshipped is a mess in itself but having this guy behind me. And when he wrote that no I said he’s done with me.

[00:42:11] Who’s going to help me in the nearby cries and apologetically crossed the bounds and all that stuff. I said what I’m going to go do the olive branch day and now and I had it. We had a conversation about I don’t remember what everything else was but we were kind of doing a closure on our relationship and I thought well before that causes I have to bring up these dreams I’ve had you know. And I told him about these dreams I had had where he had been touching me. And I felt weird about them and for years I’ve thought there is something wrong with me having dreams of such a vile nature about my friends and confidants and someone I like and trust. And he told me at that time you have to have him put your mind at ease. They weren’t dreams. I really messed up and I crossed a line and were bawling and he’s telling me how sorry he is in these weeping on my shoulder and I’m holding in I’m saying it’s okay it’s okay. And this is what one of the sickest parts of my life right now is I call him the words just call in the elders tell them what you’ve done and all be forgiven and all be OK. Now I’m in mean I’d pay. I know what what he tells the elders doesn’t he’s in the situation I’m in now. It’s all gonna be better. Like you can’t hit rock bottom and not feel tremendous guilt over what you’ve done and that you’re trying to repair their relationship with Jehovah he tells me.

[00:43:27] He will if he’s so sorry he’s going to go to the elders and fix this and make it right and do do what was right in their shoes a little bit about my mental attitude to it even years they could this fellowship guy I’m thinking well if he just tells them these are the markets and over there they’re going to handle it correctly of course. And then I go to the next meeting and were sitting at the watchtower and the guy from the stage says brothers TV and I look over like war. And he raises his hand a microphone comes he gives his answer gives the mike back. And I remember like wanting to stand up and scream that guy shouldn’t be allowed to carve it like a war like I had no idea. It’s it’s weird now that I did it still does. But afterwards I grabbed the couple elders and said hey come Steve told me there was a thing that happened between you. Did he come to you. Like I see him commenting today. And did you. Did he come to you and tell you anything cause no one asked me like everybody’s guilty like no one asked me anything. First of all I just want a Furby came to you and they said I’m like very secretive elder language like terms like well we know it’s confidential but he did tell us there was a closeness that was misconstrued and and we’re handling it. And so I walked away satisfied with that answer. We’re now being awake makes me angry with myself angry with them and visibly sick that I should have said no. How about let’s go get him now and we can torture let’s just talk this out again because no one asked me.

[00:45:06] First of all how I was doing so. Now I look back and I know he didn’t tell me anything he didn’t tell them anything because they would have come to me even as a disfellowshipped person they would have wanted to confirm his confession and say this is what he told us. Is that true. And even if I was the lost sheep I felt like very hurt that my opinion didn’t matter. I was disfellowshipped. They got the faithful person to say. That’s the more important word. Even if they asked me they were never going to come to me so I kind of expected it like well because they didn’t ask me. Now I look back and see how flawed that is. They definitely should have asked me they should have come and said Lordship or not. How are you. Are you OK. Is that me at this lake DTV. We are like God like we had no idea like this was going on in your life and you know you’re usually scared. They did it. They wanted to handle the matter. That’s all that matters. And they took one side of it never confirming it with me which I now obviously know he mentioned nothing that would have equated to Paula. He maybe just confessed feelings and they celebrate with him shared a scripture and said You’re doing the best you can and then patted them on the head sent him his merry way and he’s allowed the comment at the next meeting.

[00:46:18] That’s the sickness of this lake now that I’m on the outside of it and I look at what I myself to do I like beside myself that this is the thing that happens and is allowed to happen and that I don’t know who it was because was this fellowship or just even a confession told one way if they said it’s satisfactory because you told us something so we’re going to assume that was everything you know is ludicrous to me. There’s no cross-examination or any investigation or asking anyone else. So all the details he chose to give up were the only ones that you guys have to act on. And that was the first note that I really was. Just so shipped but there’s no way it had. God has his fingers on the pulse of this organization like these elders like my mom and dad’s divorced my dad like docking the starship. They all got removed. These are some of them the same brothers are their older body and its bungled situation after a bungled situation after a bungled situation. This is a God’s organization. This is not God’s organization. However my heart was so wrapped up in it all I want to do is get reinstated. I never did I never I never could. You know the night I was feeling like I want to hurt them all at once but then get the hurt over rather than continually hurting them on called Steve a. And he was an elder in 84 correlation. His wife answered very nicely. He put humanity before. Procedure of day. Talk to you. You know I’m the linchpin that is my firmness tells Dave the error of his ways. He’ll stay. He knew that. Dave don’t do that. You’re not hurting anyone.

[00:48:04] That’s a selfish thing. However you’re feeling now it will pass. Just remember Jehovah knows you overseas and he can talk. Be off the ledge metaphorically in that sense it wasn’t an actual wedge but from my mind state of this is the worst thing I’ve ever experienced. I’m a very people person and I have no people and I’m hurting all the people I do care about. I can’t make myself better. I care. Eventually I kind of decided that if the witness is right or wrong you know they don’t get involved in wars they don’t gamble money away or you know hopefully you like the idea I had a can but they don’t get their fries and drink you know although we know that that’s not true either. Like the beer that your child abusers. So they’re good people to be around. How I thought so whatever I felt about this local elder body and maybe this is just something beyond them. This is the situation I do elsewhere. I want to be surrounded by these whether or not they have the right answers to eternal salvation. They’re good people and I should go back so I went back I got reinstated. Can I ask you before we get to your reinstatement. Can I ask you a couple questions please keep me on track as much as possible. It’s so hard. These are just a couple of things that I just wondered about. This is actually going to backtrack a little bit but. So you’re disfellowshipped and the elders like you went to them about the abuse.

[00:49:40] You had mentioned that I think you were out for at least a year and a half. Yes. During that time that year and a half to the elders ever did they meet with you. Did they try to encourage you. Did they do. Did you have interactions with the elders as part of your spiritual rehabilitation. No I had no I had to act first like they would. One of them would smile and nod at me because he knew it was good to encourage me and keep me coming you’ll give me that you know pat on the head. And so I remember that they would talk to me like at the back of the hall if I had a question or needed a book or when I had brought my girlfriend to a couple meetings they were like oh how are you. Great great. And they just lowballed Obama of course. To show that whatever David’s situation is we don’t want that to elevate you from attaining everlasting life. So there are those moments like that but I remember she fell. She went online read some things right away. And I wanted nothing to do with it. Like I thought no no no no you who are you trust me who live went through it I’m going through it right now or stuff you heard online. You have no idea about. And I can tell you what those sites say bitter apostates are just going to have their Gitter. Of course they’re meant to organization. They left the organization and their feelings are not their stories not mine. And I felt like I did what I could do with it.

[00:51:11] And so what the mind will do though. I mean those are just bitter apostates. But here I am a person who has been abused has been ignored I’m being shunned and no one of these supposed spiritual shepherds who the elders are supposed to be caring. And yet you have to initiate all of the conversation with them. In other words like because you’re not the first person to ask this question. And what I’m finding is that once you’re disfellowshipped the elders watch you but they don’t try to help you at all do they. They don’t know when I say hey like how are you doing. We care. We want to see you back and we want to help you they just leave you to your own vices don’t they. They leave you alone. They largely do. And the funny thing about it is like if I didn’t initiate like saying to them oh I’ll think about writing my letter what do I need to do. Oh I’m so glad you asked here in order to do Jumo as well Brooke. There’s the process that you go through to do that David. And how you to do this. That’s what a of us. You know it’s just like I wrote my letter. So then they talked to me a little bit more and the longer the back of the hall that I couldn’t they wrote this letter just reinvigorated by this. This is the one this is the letter that gets me back you know I was like that. And then what happened was I wrote him that letter.

[00:52:48] And at this time I was still working at top honors for a lot of it. And on Sunday that was my day to do the open to cause Sunday it is open until noon. But to get food ready and hot before noon I had to get to work at like 10 get all the hot table going you know neat beans. She saw us all that Taco Johns he stuff. And then I would puzzle after the Kingdom Hall like had to get that on before 10:00 o’clock. So the heating up couldn’t stay and hot and then it just heats up slowly where it’s ready to serve by you know at noon when I have that tend to new and it was leave temperature and lock it up go to the Kingdom Hall in my truck which aren’t uniform often unshaved and then right afterwards but back out and then it works 12 to. That was my open door closed. They you know it’s like a 14 hour day anyway. And in my letter they had said well we’d like you to come more with the appropriate attire. And sometimes you’re not sure if it’s a whole of it. And they even told me this is a test. We think you’re doing good and you’ve been here at all of that. So they recognize the effort that it must be taking from me to even get access to up in my work clothes like Guy your Boston to be here. And we appreciate that. However we want to see how bad you want it. That was basically the message. And they said keep coming a little bit more and try to write a letter get it like three months more.

[00:54:13] After working on a few things we told you to work out. So I went back and worked on most things and I wore a suit and I tried to shave as often as I could. Eventually we got reinstated. Much to my delight at that time. Wow. Well I appreciate you answering. And then I also just wanted to point out because it’s something you said I think you also alluded to the fact that you you may see it differently now and that even Steven A helps you to see it differently. But it needs it needs to be said that you weren’t hurting those people. So you’re disfellowshipped you weren’t hurting those people who were seeing you. You weren’t hurting anyone they were being hurt because they were buying into something that was hurting them. Well it wasn’t about you. It was all about them and their misplaced ideologies. And I know that now. But man like when your friends from childhood and you just see pain in their faces. It kills you. Yeah. And you take it all upon yourself because that’s what we were taught to do. It was all about us. Everything was our responsibility. And you were just horrible and that we’re hurting these people none of whom were actually trying to help you. Please you guys even like I felt very like like I was even covering over the scene. My friend was like I don’t to read about him. I’m taking. That’s my right now because I’m sure it has worked. So the fact that I was a sheriff is works but I’m paying for them. They’re being Matosi.

[00:55:57] I mean look at what you were taking on. You were taking on the things that you just mention the sins by you know being there with them. You were also taking on this shining thing and all the weight of the feelings of every person that saw you you were taking on complete solitude. You were taking on trying to make a living and still make these meetings and do all that and in all of this and you were taking on you’d already taken on this abuse by Stevie. So you’re just a dumping ground for everybody else’s stuff. Here you are disfellowshipped. You have these people that are supposed to be shepherds in the congregation the elders. And shame on those assholes for not ever reaching out to people who are hurt. I mean there is no organization that shoots their wounded like Jehovah’s Witnesses. They completely take people that are already broken and that are hurting and then they dump everything on them tell them that it’s all their fault. Blame the victim and then do absolutely nothing to help that person to get spiritually well as they see it like they don’t even though I guess honestly by leaving you alone that’s technically the healthiest thing if you were to just get out and be free of those Nazis. So it could actually work to your favor. But they’ve got you so programmed and you’re so devastated and you you’re so living in shame that you’re such a horrible person and these loving spiritual brothers can’t even lift a finger to reach out and say hey man like. All right. So here you are. Now you’re on the outside.

[00:57:58] Let’s help rehabilitate you. Let’s help see what we can do to help you overcome your problems to make you a better person. You know it’s like going to a doctor who looks at you and goes you know you got stage 4 cancer. Good luck to you. You know like that never tries to help you that never brings the medicine or the cure. They just leave you to sit in it and feel terrible. And then of course you know a person like you. And often it’s the people who are the most sincere and the most beautiful people are the people who are hurt the most because they truly do care and they take it all on and they feel horrible. And then there’s no one there to help them. You were sincere. You were trying to do all the right things. And they used every bit of your sincerity against you. And if that doesn’t show that Jehovah’s Witnesses are not the true religion they are not the truth. They are not. What did they say that Jesus said. By their love you will know them. They claim love as their identifying mark of true Christianity. I’m 35. Fuck them they have no love. They would not know love. All they know is narcissism they know control and control is the exact opposite of love. Control is not about the other person. Control is about what you want and imposing it on that other person. And it’s completely abusive and that is who Jehovah’s Witnesses are. So that’s my little soapbox. It’s one of the things that woke me up.

[00:59:40] That was one of the biggest things is when I looked around and I realized there is no love in this organization. It is all about them. They take and they take and they take and they never give you anything in return. And so there is no true love there. That’s the crazy thing is like recently. Like I like a lot of partners and like well writing things I play with words quite a bit. Yeah. Giraffe’s lately like since our first session recording I’ve taken to calling it Jehovah’s narcissist’s and I sing the old melody of a song and it makes me smile. But the thing is I realize now like to mix the people you know who are believers with what the organization is. It’s like how you said all of that and said there’s no love there’s no this new organization. If you stripped that they’ve given me a lot of reading material over the years that would be the extent of my friends who are believers. They have shown love in a lot of conditional and you can feel that real love exists with the people I knew inside the congregation. However when you look at the policies in place just for how the organization is run. That’s like saying I want to talk which arms my employees and my current like co-workers I should say actually cared about me. Do you think Taco John’s international knew anything of how many tacos I sold or what I was doing. No it’s the same way. It’s like they just well at least you are hogging the machine.

[01:01:22] Yeah yeah and at least good Taco Johns gave you money that you could use to do whatever you wanted with the Watchtower. Yeah they gave you reading material but what was that reading material. It was narcissistic propaganda. That’s all it was. Yeah. So even if read the material they gave you all about them. It’s crazy too because like all the reading material like years and years of it is little more than a recital of the same things they had me read at 8 years old. Of Cornell up to 225. Hey we’re going to recite this again. Oh yeah you’re still a terrible sinner you’re still a horrible person and they have to let you know that at every turn. What you’re saying. Nature is because that way you need them. If they can keep you down long enough you need them. And what is you know I love the actual story of Narcissus and you know where narcissism comes from you know and how this narcissist is so enamored with him. Enough him or her will say him nurses make it was him was so in love with his own reflection in the water he could do nothing but stare into it and so what did he do. That seems like fall in and drown or something and I think somehow he dies this horrible death because he can’t break away from admiring his own beauty and that is of his witnesses you know if you look even when Jehovah’s Witnesses talk amongst themselves sure oh brother isn’t this such a wonderful organization. How great are we. Like they could not pat themselves on the back more and do less.

[01:03:00] I was always bugged by the watchtowers because like I mentioned earlier where I liked the new light I liked the media stuff I liked something that my brain had to get creative in reasoning and have an agile mind to learn to grasp this new light rather than a whole hum recitals that we have heard over and like one of the things that made me the maddest was when they would waste a whole Watchtower article that was like this week we’ll be discussing or all the good we’ve done in this country and it was like literally paragraphs in a paragraph about patting themselves on the back for how they spread this work here and so and so yeah his calmness for an A B and C question that only three questions like this guy’s story. We understood it was a feel good story put it like the back page up in a way. Don’t waste my Watchtower stuff that I have to study with just feel good things you want to pat yourself on the back for me for that they can’t do that because part of any good colt is infantilizing people and dumbing things down and being so mind numbing that you literally are trained to turn your brain off. That is what they do. It is a way of manipulating people to do dumb things down so much to be so boring that people literally turn their brains off. That’s why you remember there was quote new lie and there was some new thing. It was like oh my god I finally feel awake and alive.

[01:04:30] There’s something to emulate me instead of being so bored that you’re just mindless automatons little robots that follow this cult and do what ever they say because god forbid you turn your brain on. They don’t. So that’s why it was so boring that that is all by design. That is all by design. It keeps you in a state of NARM so that you can’t feel and you can’t look around you and really ever find your way out. You’re just in the fog and can’t see anything else. Yeah well I’ve derailed that. No but I wanted to get back to your. You know I wanted to ask those questions and really herbes me that elders don’t do anything. I mean I guess I’m I’m glad in one way that they’re not really helping anyone so that maybe people will leave but it’s also sad because unfortunately some people do leave and they leave. Because they do commit suicide. And that’s that’s so sad. And that is one of those things where they say they disfellowshipped you because you weren’t repentant you weren’t sorry for what you did but then you see people literally kill themselves over it. Now how could they know. How could they say that you’re not sorry over it. When you then turn around and kill yourself. You know that is the ultimate I’m sorry. And I’ll say it again though like I like honestly like the last bit I’ll say I’m my disfellowshipping is that I was taking a personality test and I’m into that sort of part about the brain nature versus nurture and I was ENFP which is the champion and very hyper champion of causes that type a champion like Victor.

[01:06:32] But the champion stuff they get all and they go all year on something and they can get brazenly people to follow them on to their their cause. You can start and I love I could I start. I love the I love the passion. It was infectious people around me would get caught up in it and I was in the ENFP is extrovert and I took the test before my disfellowshipping. That part that determines you have all the questions it’s like. So it’s the only one that has a 20. It’s like a 20 questionnaire. And remember it was like 19 to 1 Etah Ayfer introvert. After my disfellowshipping and reinstatement I got into reading a lot more. And all of a sudden I don’t know if it’s just because age balances you out or the experience I went through said get used to being alone. And I was much more like eleven to maybe eight. And in that you know twelve eleven maybe eight or nine. You know I was much more I wasn’t an introvert because I get my charge off people but now I had a lot of introvert tendencies. I was okay being alone. I liked a book is a good time to be alone. I can be content by myself now. Disfellowshipping taught me that before I needed to be around people I needed to be around people I needed to be around people. And when I wasn’t. That is the singular only time in my life I have ever been even close to what I would call suicidal and I wasn’t like I don’t want to say I was I was depressed. And that was the thing.

[01:08:08] You know you’re curious about it that call to the void and it just I was mulling it more than it ever did. But it wasn’t like suicide or the sense of you know I want to try it but I was if it had made sense in my mind for the first time only during that period in my life of being disfellowshipped that first time now I understand. It’s scary that something like that can literally impact your personality so much. Yeah a push to the brink. Totally against my nature. That’s not who I am or what I would think. But I was driven there and it was a real place my mind had filed. And I just can’t believe that I look back now and a marvel that you know like they push you that far Jehovah’s loving organization pushed you that far. I don’t mean to laugh but yeah the absurdity of it can cause is exactly what gallows humor. Yeah it’s wow. It’s just it’s so sad. So so then. All right. So now back to your reinstatement so you get reinstated then. How did your life transform from there. The next part was rather quickly and I will try to do it as quickly as possible. I get reinstated and there’s a few friends you know people moved away. People my age got their own lives and spread apart as everyone does of any age when you reach that. But some had been disfellowshipped and left the organization some had stayed behind and the young kids that were my immediate young crew they were gone and like you know off doing stuff.

[01:09:48] But now there’s a slightly younger generation just coming up and I and brilliance that way I can be there stede a I can be a good example the fun young guy who takes an interest in younger ones. You know I’ll do that. So I started hanging out with people you know a good number of years younger than me and some of their previous friends were still there. One of whom was a girl who became my wife eventually. And I remember the night I got reinstated they said hey you know Dave let’s got a dry ice too. They were like best is Miranda and Jessica and I thought I couldn’t believe it. Like this quick they hang out actually spend time with me not just you know pat me on the back. What we’re glad to have you back look at the back of the kingdom holler. This is going to bubble out outside the walls of the hall. I get to hang out with my old friends again in the real world again. And we just got in a car ride talking music and caught up in what’s changed. You know we’ve missed a day of Garber’s will have your back and all that stuff. And that was when I realized like some of them weren’t there. But some of them were and that I had in my heart made up the decision I have to go back to my own self. None of the friends will ever be there still. If they hadn’t moved on or just want nothing to do with me that’s not why I’m coming back for them.

[01:11:10] But when they actually did I was shocked and surprised because I was convinced that everyone else had just written me off. I’d be this kind of anonymous member of the congregation who kind of comes and goes and I can say hi now at least. But the fact that it was it was by a certain circle of friends very open eyes. Glad to have you back. And the one girl she was a little on the young side when I had left or gotten disfellowshipped the first time she was being a couple years younger than me but she had confessed you know feelings for me before and you know I said I like to wait for you I don’t know and she’s that why I just hated that whole. We had to watch on the sidelines. You go to that first relationship just up and down and on again off again and I just felt so bad for you and in all your in all of your experiences she felt for me and you know had a big crush on me and I was attracted to her and I and in a state of mind that I was coming back. I didn’t think anyone would want to be around me. And here was someone who I had had before and am willing to have again. And now she’s actually old enough where she wants to hang around here tell her parents. I’d like to date him. She can do that as a responsible adult. So things progressed rather quickly and we were married within. I was reinstated the first time November 30th and our anniversary the following year was November 17th. So within under a year of being back I had gone through the dating engagement and marriage process recently disfellowshipped.

[01:12:42] People didn’t like that. And you know how sure are you about this. He’s only been back a little bit of time or after. So I got married relatively quickly. Looking at it now. It was it was what I wanted at the time what I wanted at the time though was it was part of the love bomb to about getting back you know rolling on back. Now all this love hits you everyone even the people I thought who would write me after I welcome back. But you know I’ll never be the same. When I saw that that was a worry of mine dissolved between certain ones I said oh great but then at the same time Miranda and the other one who was Jessica’s best friend at the time started to decide that she was just going to leave just walking away going inactive and we had tried like multiple times to reach out to her and save her and she was leaving to go with this man. We were like heartbroken that we were lost. Losing a friend of this sort. And there was like other friends of our circle had already left me and they picked up. So it’s really dwindling down the pool of ours. Our group people and now we lose this last one was kind of the glue that kept it together. But I think she even felt like I was a little bit that way. Well Newell you guys are probably going to start dating so I can kind of see that now so I can do what I want finally because you’ll have Dave you know. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:14:08] So she’s letting go and kind of passing the baton off of who’s going to be good friends and also sort of through that that really expurgated what our our friendship becoming an actual courtship because now we’re like the only you know three or so left from that original core. And one of them is leaving. So it really brought the two of us together and it was natural that we formed a closeness over the last at this friend and now we felt like it was just us. I went to there was a couple younger than us that we still hang out with but other than like it was like they were just going to come together in a few short years change such drought so drastically that we got really cross over all that you know we had that in common that we lost all the same friends and now I was back so things would steady out and she was a young girl and I was a young boy and we started dating and got married and they I felt like I had something to prove to everybody to cause like I want to let the record show when I was associate. Yes I had that role but it wasn’t a sexual relationship. Like don’t think I went out and lived as the barge life and now she’s giving herself to someone who’s not worth anything because it’s really too in myself. I had felt like everyone’s going to view me that way and I’m not going to be worth anything to myself if I’m not worth anything to their eyes. And so you feel this who is going to want me.

[01:15:28] I’ve been disfellowshipped and I know what I’ve done. They don’t know what I’ve done. I’m so soiled and I’ve lived in the world that if they knew that I had tried pot twice and you know they’re just going to like and I hated it. You know you feel those things and I have a word too often and they probably assume the worst. No one’s going to want me any more ever again. They will always I will always have an asterix of welcome him because he’s your brother again. Don’t ever trust him because he’s a person who did stuff that he’s untrustable right. And so the fact that I had friends left is someone well used to you you like me you would want to date me. It was like this I’m acting I’m going act now and it’s just us two left and we seem to do the last two Sindane people in the congregation of the similar age let’s get together and it was looking back now as it was I’m out of that relationship of course but there was such a bad choice for so many reasons. I should have taken a lot of time to not just be so glad that I had some friends who still did. Were willing to like me and be you know friends me first I should like when you’re expecting no one to ever take you again no one to look at you and view you as an honest person because you’ve been through that. Yeah. You take what you can get.

[01:16:45] You take what you kind of take what you can get and undo the pool of people who are dwindling but you know like when you look at like what someone is in a marriage partner like what your qualifications are. She was a young man who thought she had a lot more she’s different now and don’t want to make this why her and I were about a couple but just the one thing you know about the truth. I will say is that it shows the organization the cast I’m saying is they don’t. JT and Lady C say it a lot like they don’t teach you anything about how to evaluate a person. They ask you if you’re interested in dating someone another. How many hours in service do they do. OK so they move a lot of product. How spiritual someone is or how many hours in service or if it is in ministry. Is your pioneer you know or if not then you shouldn’t even consider such a print. It’s like you. Oh they don’t teach you how to talk about was his temper like or he can be obedient and show up at meetings on time and go out in service he can be places on time is not a qualification. Is this person really good marriage. Sure he does. The only thing you look for your spiritual I’m spiritual. You grew up in this. Ha I grew up in this how your family knows my family. We know as we know for two people. Each Other is probably well as anyone can know each other when you’ve got all this intertwined history and common friends and the history of losing those common friends you’re bonded and you feel it was like that makes sense.

[01:18:14] And then you’re attracted to one another and you’re young and you feel like all I need is to this will be the thing that Couture’s me. This will be what fixes me and makes me completely happy once I have this marriage in me. And she’s willing to forgive that I had all that disfellowshipped life. You know I’m just over the moon that anyone would still want me around and it’s not that you guys are compatible. No not at all. Believe me. I mean honestly after we left the conversation my wife and I had to have you know which is you know why are we in this relationship for real. Because you know we got married because you know we get married obviously we did care about each other genuinely but when you’re in the Colts the the reasons are the qualifications I guess that you are given to look for in a marriage may are not at all. What makes a good marriage. And you know what. The divorce rate is in Jehovah’s Witnesses but it has to be higher than even the national average because I have seen we’ve seen so many people like almost all the young people that we had grown up with. They got married. We get divorced. And oh yeah they were they were just getting married to have sex of course they were. That’s the only way you could have sex and they were normal young people with feelings. And I just remember you know even after we left we had to reexamine you know why are we in this relationship is this. Is this really what we want.

[01:19:52] Because I mean we broke down everything else in our lives so I mean we had a look at that too and you know this truly was what we want is what we want. But we had to consciously make that choice again because we realized that so much of what every aspect of our life was based on was if it wasn’t a lie it was just not a good and healthy foundation for whatever. And so we had a look at our own relationship and really examine that and have you know tough discussions because really I mean I guess every marriage probably goes through that anyway because you’re different at 20 or 30 than you are at 60. Like everybody changes like exact when it’s best. That’s that’s one of those things no one talks about anyway. It’s just the expectations of the different seasons of life and how people change throughout those. But you know that’s part of having a mature relationship a mature marriage. But you know we had to re-evaluate. And you know good for us. You know luckily for us you know we are where we wanted to be but I totally understand that a lot of people are not and it’s because the foundation that Jehovah’s witnesses give their members for a relationship. Yes so dysfunctional and it doesn’t. People really are so I mean no wonder you know I feel for you because you had that at the and for her really because it’s not fair to you. Oh my god yes. Because it was also it was set up on such a shaky foundation that was neither of yours fault wasn’t the fault of either of you that you were born into this Colts. Yes.

[01:21:38] That has such dysfunctional ways of being glad you said that too. Because like for me like I just feel as much as I’d love to say oh it’s all her. She had changed that wasn’t what I wanted at the time she was what I wanted. But what I eventually wanted change what she wants changed and everything changed. And the reality of it was it was changing further and further apart. Yeah. And when I got reinstated I do not many brothers left in the hall. And so I quickly like they give me privileges rather I was good readers. You can start reading at the Watchtower. You can start me or you can pray at the meetings over everything. And they kind of even well her dad was also the presiding overseer and he was here. There’s a long history there of course with any elder Neckar issuers don’t need was. But they are they basically told me Well you know you can’t be a ministerial servant until you know five years. I remember hearing that I thought well what did you mean five years like I’ve been raised. I can read I can do this. And I guess there’s an that’s the elders direction is there some arbitrary number that says five years until he could be in good standing because someone is really from the Bible is a five year you know five years you know there’s a five year waiting period mentioned in the Bible. I thought it was like seven and I could be released on the Jubilee Year or some other major bull. Yeah.

[01:23:15] They had to give me an earring and I could get rid of it when I wasn’t a slave after this. I don’t know. No seriously I shouldn’t make jokes because you and I it’s funny. But to someone listening has no idea like they make up a lie and there’s arbitrary rule isn’t a culture of it where I remember feeling like I’m more spiritual now and have a bit of my life like this is the idea I’m ready. This is the scene you’re looking at a ministerial circle wants to serve the congregation and that fact that they may be wait I felt like her you know because I know I knew I was never at the time I got reinstated. I was I literally pictured like the world Armageddon had to be around the corner and we were in like George Bush years. And I thought like oh man things are going to happen things are going to happen. Like yeah. Bush and Clinton and Bush again before that and then you know like it is just too much happening in to have your country be in the hands of two singular families for almost 26 years. This is this is at the boiling point right. And you think I got on the train and the doors closed and it cut my coat tails like I was the last person to see it. You know that was my mentality when I got reinstated was that I just got it. Thank goodness I got my act together in time just to beat those doors. You know.

[01:24:34] But I knew like in my mind I was that convinced the end was on its way and I was like I was a spiritual as I’ve ever been in my life. So there’s anyway. Fast forwarding through the marriage problems as most young people have stated that she is a kind of become different. And I remember having doubts and still I had told myself through my whole life this masturbation issue will cure itself once I’m married because then you’ll have a marriage me and you won’t need it right. Yeah. People you know. But anyway. So yes that’s why I’m hanging my hat on this marriage thing going that way. You you just blew me you nothing nothing I can’t handle. But we get into the marriage and it’s not what I had a lot of levels. And then we have conversations. And then the conversations come blow ups where then you want to avoid blow ups. So you start bringing topics up and your communication becomes signals. Body language is slamming doors and sending messages through non actual communication. And you feel like how did we get here. This is lame and this is not what I wanted. This is not how I wanted to spend my years as a married man. Well if I had a kid that would be that you know we’re going to keep. I always wanted kids you know and we have a baby. And that was about three years in the marriage. But I remember holding that innocent little child and that was another moment that kind of dawned on me from my awakening as there’s things I can’t say now. My then wife I just know you can never tell her you have a doubt here or there about this organization.

[01:26:14] She more habit she is third generation born in Die Hard. And we blast all these friends and she just seemed flummoxed that anyone would ever leave of their own. Don’t tell her any of these doubts whether it’s leaving the organization or meeting her or what the marriage is. But I remember looking at that little baby’s face and thinking this is a gift from God that will keep me engaged in this. I want to raise him right. Amina really a modern day keep me engaged in that kind of occasion and do the right thing for my kid. This may sound delicious it’s not exactly what I wanted but that’s OK because now I’ve got this precious thing to care for. And he will be the glue that keeps us together and I can draw myself into being a parent more than worrying about what the husband or wife connection itself is. And they’re also like when you have a kid something changes and you completely wear I remember holding that kid can’t remember it the delivery is happening. You’re scared. She needs a blood transfusion during this thing. Or what if the baby comes out. He’s not healthy. And I was like instantly I kind of knew I couldn’t voice certain doubts but in my mind I has I had learned about a scary amount of love in myself. I think I’ve got too much to love to ever say no.

[01:27:32] If this kid’s playing in the street and eventually needs like a blood transfusion because he get to buy a car I would have to say what everyone else in the hospital room being her dad was the presiding overseer and she would be saying this and then I know I would go order like the doctor in the hallway. So yeah I had to see that back there. I’ll tell you now save the life whatever you do and later that all Biyani they can get mad at me. I’ll be the one who violated God’s law but mind you it will at least be able to survive and his want to be his sent you know that would be mine and they can all be mad at me but I want him to live. And I’m kind of like you had that ability in you where you realize now like just a kid makes you different. You think like there’s nothing you wouldn’t do for him good or bad. And you know you realize that I think in my mind I’m still a die hard witness too. I have doubts but I also know that this kid has changed things. When they round us up for the concentration camps that they had told us was going to happen or had fearmonger into us. I thought I’m gonna go down in a hail of gunfire because I’m not going to be able to watch them put a gun to his head. I’m going to jump or try to grab someone near me or fight back like I’m going to watch my kid do that. I know if they separate us and please take me instead. Does doesn’t work. It’s definitely my option and I felt like that because I thought I can’t do this.

[01:28:54] I’ve got a kid and I knew this concentration camp thing I was just praying it would not happen in theU.S. because I knew I was too weak. I couldn’t do it. And so I started to realize his weaknesses and Hacketts voiced them. I can’t say this to my then wife like I don’t have the strength to look like I might renounce my faith if they give me a paper that says himin I think or live like you she would have left me right then and there. Just for saying something against the organization like that. But when you have a kid you start realizing your limits and say I can’t sign off. I would sign off on a blood transfusion. I would do anything I would sign renounce my faith. There’s nothing you can hold over me that would say choose this ideology over this physical being of help. Now that doesn’t go away. That was like part of my own cracks in the foundation realizing that they just it became. When you start having all of those things you can’t speak to your mate about a lot of things especially something as big as your religion you’re going you’re you’re you’re you’re doing nothing but furthering on like first of all it’s unfair to make myself think that this kid was going to keep my marriage together like that somehow his job to fix things between us. Yeah that rarely works. But you think you think of all this stuff and you just start realizing through your own thoughts now that you’re faced with your own. Like who am I as a parent. Who am I as a Jehovah’s Witness. Who am I as something bigger than yourself you have to think outside of. Yeah. And that was like Really.

[01:30:28] I mean I guess cracks in the foundation are starting to appear in my relationship with her. And I’ve just got stuff that I know I have to bite my tongue to pass. Like most people get pushed out the back of their mind and convince themselves that OK well don’t worry about that now don’t worry about that. Now when if he wants to go for football that’s not an implied that you can’t play football like god like how she’s going to say no and I’m gonna say maybe that would have a shot like show me the Bible. Like when he asked me Dad why can’t we in the Bible do it. I don’t have that good answer because I don’t think it exists. Like birthdays or something you could say was pagan. Maybe I could convince him. But this like you know he just wants to play sports. That’s it. You know why can’t I have you know this haircut or that third jeans or shirt with this logo on it. I’m thinking you no I don’t have good answers for a lot of the stuff. Maybe I wasn’t cut out to be a parent. But right now little kids little issues will just get through this. We’re what big star wars gets the vigil. Now you just want cut out to be a Jehovah’s Witness. That’s of was you’re actually being a good parent. And so there’s a lot of that going on. And then we had a second kid and a lot of the same stuff I just had to realize I was a very active dad like at assemblies.

[01:31:46] I really love the fact that I didn’t have to sit in there for the sessions and she not be a communicator very well but being good at getting a message to you whether it’s through silent treatment or just like huffing and they can’t off this kid. So it’s very good when you can do that and then like whether it’s grandparents or even random people at the convention sitting next to you like Ticknor or you want me to tip them. Should I take your kid for you and say I just hated asking for help. I was out day. How do you if she’s there even if it’s a language people speak and they learn as a survivor’s guilt if I just make a fuss about this I don’t have to handle it anymore. Someone will come in and save it. And that’s the dad I was was I was a very let’s do it let’s do it and I got to be walking down the halls every session like walking down the halls and seeing all the other dads and parents that use their salaries when you’re like hey we’re in the parents club we’re all out here you know in especially in cyber. We got child rearing and we’re trying to make it so those inside are distracted by our loud kids. That mothers could actually take notes because they don’t have arms full of babies and so I’m facilitating a good thing. Plus I get to walk in the halls I’m not enjoying the sunshine so much. Me and my kid are having a fun time. Let’s go upstairs and check in at that level you know.

[01:33:00] Let’s ride the elevator and you start to feel like you just don’t know. We became really fun for me to be that dad with the kid and we were one of the places we had assemblies was also a local a state baseball Hall of Fame. And so we grew up look at Buffalo baseballs and read names and what towns they were from. And I’m jealous we never had anything like that. And you just you know you’d grow it you’d get your arm. You get people who don’t talk to you and they’ve got their kid and they’re waiting out in the hallways at assemblies intervention because they got that year piece aired and they’re just not at you. But that’s like the not as a hello and a dismissal. And they know don’t linger around and talk you know. But then you get the ones who love you’re out here with your kid to you just go and you go and talk until you start to hear music and you’re like oh yeah I get into the song as it’s going to be lunch. But it’s so funny because when you had two kids. Now what if we could always take shifts before things really changed our relationship. Well we had two kids because it’s one of us is always going to have one or even worse both. You know we’re outnumbered now it’s even teens at least. And that’s got to be a strain on our relationship because I still was like in the doing a lot of that like I had a handle thing and I had to handle everything. She was a note taker and I wasn’t. So let me take notes. Would you take.

[01:34:25] I mean I got to go out in the hallways and do that stuff as well. But I also got very into bicycling and like cycling riding around miles and miles on my bike at this time in like 2009 or whatever and then bringing up children and so all the good races in bicycling are on Saturday or Sunday. So when you get to go out for like out of the sessions are take the kids with time or room time or room you can just check up dates on your phone. Who’s winning what race weekend after weekend there’s a good race going on. So it really I was kind of weak spiritually not giving it. I was thinking I was rather spend time with my kids in a time out room just doing my own thing and listening to all that stuff and is what helped her out. But after enough of that it just became expected. So I was always doing it and feeling like well no. It’s exhausting being a parent especially when you start to realize some of the beliefs a whole do. Some of them I don’t this part of this organization raise me but I stomach it because I’ve got all these other things and it was just a really confusing time in my life. Think young children. You know that’s interesting because I’ve heard people who I recently talked to somebody who was interested in this girl so he started it he wanted her. She was worldly and he was a witness and he wanted to have this relationship with her.

[01:35:58] So he started examining the teachings of Jehovah’s witnesses because of course you know he was trying to push her to become one and he wanted to make sure he did everything right as he was going to teach her. And it was the examination of his own beliefs that led him out. And then you know here you are you have kids and it’s the same thing now you’re like OK now I’m going to teach my kids this stuff. Now I have to think about this and now I have to examine these beliefs. Does this really add up. Being a witness was far. I was the only one that had to deal with my decision. And there a lot better for your kids and you start to look at everything you think God this is just like why not football why not even like the knowledgeable team you know like I just thought like because it’s a team and it’s a school like to me like I just mean like there’s too much here I kind of want better for my kids. But I a mate that won’t ever go along with that. Yeah. And I can’t even voice these things but they’re starting they’re just festering in me. And I did like you do with any doubts though and put them in the back of your mind and you just figured that’s just my struggle. And know I don’t worry about it now anyway. So it’s fine with us. You know like you assume the fire alarm is going to work because you’ve had a battery in it forever and you haven’t used it excessive. That’s not always the case. So then how did it progressed from there. Well child is awesome.

[01:37:29] So many things are awesome I have doubts. But like any good Christian I put them aside. What happens though that really turns my life around. It was I met a woman at a coffee shop in my local town and we were talking and I got to know a little bit about her story and I just felt like I didn’t know I was drawn to her. I was drawn to her out of the laugh and making her laugh was probably the it just bubbled out of her and it was the best reward you ever got for any joke you’ve ever said that someone laughed at this one. Hate it. Better than any payment of laughs. It was just it was the exact me. This is why I called Chalk’s keep telling here again here again here again. We became good friends and we started we realized we took our kids to the same day care. I creepily looked up like her last name from her kid’s name on the daycare roster and I found oh this is her and then I found her online and we started messaging like on Instagram and just I just she just was the lonely gal who had these kids was doing the best she could as a single mom. And I felt for that situation growing up with my mom as a single mom. And I was just like she just needs a friend and her husband cheated on her and had like is really messed up life right. It’s I want to show her that there’s good men out there. I know because I am one and that is not all that way and you’re in your 30s.

[01:38:57] But there’s a good life for you and you just needed a friend and someone to talk to. And I thought I could be that some juggling all this just being her friend and I like talking to her. She seemed to get me and she even asked me at one point like whoa what how you feel about flirting I know you’re in a relationship and everything and that’s why we proudly showed it to you. You’ve been down this road with your husband. Would you have been okay with that. Oh you’re right. And so we had like very mature conversations over and over. But yes we. There might be attraction to one another but we can’t go down that road it’s a road filled with regret and that’s not my purpose in being your friend. You know that we can we can never fulfill each other in that way. That doesn’t mean we can’t have conversations in good times and you know you share a coffee in the mornings and it was just like we grew close. Eventually my phone being and I’d get a message we’re starting to get mad every time it wasn’t her kid. That sounds awful but you do realize you’re falling in love. This can’t be happening. This can’t be happening. How did this happen to me. But whether it was my. Did you check the emotional qualifications first. No. No. In the back of my mind I was hoping she would come in and maybe find a good witness me and somebody because there are others like me of course. And I thought I could help.

[01:40:18] If nothing else she would see my example and maybe meet someone who would be like me because he was in the same. You know just all those crazy things helping someone is so funny because the way we view helping them is let us change everything about you. And then you’ll be worthy of our time is like no it’s you. This was the person not to who I got to be around and talk around. And I had maybe a hope because I wanted to fulfill but I didn’t care. Shira became a witness that was like the first time world. I didn’t want. I liked her as she was for who she was and it didn’t matter. If I thought her forever eternal happiness or the place to find a good man was amongst the witnesses I felt like they’re out there and I just want to be that friend to show you. Then we start adding more and more conversations about why it never happened how we know it can never happen. And eventually I put myself in a compromising situation. And again like is my pattern. I didn’t cross the line then and there. We went over to talk about it at that time was kind of like ultimatum like I can’t talk to you anymore because this is going too far too fast. We tried forever it seemed like to put the brakes on but then there is this. Well I still want to know if there is a magic between us and we shared a kiss and neck kiss was like just electric.

[01:41:46] The electricity in the touch it was everything I had ever wanted rather than the steel relationship I had had. And I fell. I went home and I just felt awful. I didn’t sleep much that night and I would get a message and I was hurt and can’t sleep. You know I had a cry. If you are about what we did we had it you know we shared that kiss. I know it’s on our mind too. And I said I’m not going to be some philanderer who just jumps between beds. I can’t play. Do you think we can have a future together. That’s I’m only interested in this if there’s a future and it was like Well yeah I would give you my all. All I ask you is I think compassion and that’s when I started to realize I’m me that I had. First of all the little guy was a baby still and he was starting the first downstairs. And I was still messaging and I was very relieved because I remember I get to go downstairs now to sleep with him in his room. There’s a food in there and I get to sleep with the baby which will put him at ease but. I just felt awful. I don’t want to share that bed. I don’t want to share their roofs. Having this conversation with someone else and knowing that I’m a person lately who anytime a message pings or goes off even if it’s my then wife I’m mad if it’s not this person and it’s like I’m all in with my heart. And now I’m starting to get my mind over and I haven’t yet given my body over.

[01:43:11] We shared the kiss but I’m starting to realize you’re fighting this and something’s just driving you and calling you and ultimately I’m I realized when they want to predict that march that I had to make a decision it wasn’t fair to either party. And the best thing I could do was be true to myself and say what I wanted but then have the strength and courage of my convictions. To do that and say like I can’t be with you and I’m going here. And one say it was a very swift. Every one of the witnesses was just shocked because it was literally like a train jumping tracks and pulled the lever. And I got off on this one. There was never any period of other communication like I wasn’t Flandry between beds that they couldn’t respected myself between then I would have hated who I was. I hated who I was what I was doing anyway. But I realized I needed a change and I really thought it recognized this is where I’m happy. Guy it’s going to hurt it’s gonna hurt and I want that happiness. But reaching out and taking it is going to hurt her hurt hurt hurt and it’s gonna hurt everyone in Iraq and I understand but I have to do this because it was for me for once. When I can have what I like. What I wanted and I wasn’t. After eight years of marriage and like this Roumi existence. We share a roof and we share bills and weeds.

[01:44:41] You sit on your phone over three feet away and I sit on my phone and we’re as separate as two people who are supposed to be together can ever be and I’m not happy with this. And about a month away from giving my first public talk as mysteriously as well like there’s a lot of pressure and a lot of life going on and I decided that I was changing my life up radically when I left that pretty much that night and the next the next day. And I never stayed in the old house again. I went over to my now wife Missy that was her place one of the meses and she was sure to fall asleep so nobody answered the door. And I went to my car slept in the parking lot behind the coffee shop where we had met and I didn’t get much sleep but that was really good that I didn’t have to just go between houses either I had a night in my car to just cry and think and pray and do all those things about what does this beat about who I am that I am doing this. What does this mean about who I am as my dad. Like am I just handing on the Sundheim thing or you’re another dad who isn’t going to be around for your kids you know and like nothing ever could have removed me from their lives before. And now I just it was it was the most conflicting. I can’t even describe it. If you were to tell me my own words like a time recording from now back then I would still think I was crazy and as I was going through it I thought it was crazy. I just knew it because my heart beat my only compass was pointing me that direction.

[01:46:22] And for the first time your heart was pointing you in a direction because if you think about it the relationship you had previous that wasn’t based on your heart what Jehovah’s Witnesses set up for relationships. It’s an intellectualising of it. It’s not about your heart. You’re not supposed to follow your heart. The hardest treacherous. You’re supposed to look at their spiritual qualifications their numbers and whether or not you know they’re going out in service for X amount of hours or how they’re meeting attendance is or whether or not they comment. You’re not your heart’s not involved nearly as much as your head is. And so yeah for the first time you were actually following your heart and and doing what you wanted to do instead of the default that was provided to you by an organization that does not have your best interests. And I won’t let myself completely off the hook and that in fact it was some arranged marriage. But this is my heart. That first marriage at the time. Sure. But I like the way you said nearly as much as your head. It’s an. But it’s you know there’s a table of emotions and spirituality and head at heart and everybody comes together and they meet and then they decide a decision. It’s like they don’t know. There’s a lot going on ever understanding yourself is a confusing thing ever. Sure. At any point. But you know when you’re young and you’re going through what I went through. Fresh off of a reinstatement. And then just as young as it was I probably wasn’t mature to fully know what I wanted.

[01:47:53] I never gave myself the time. Even when I was disfellowshipped a lot of people thought well that was your time to decide and you made the right decision. I was all guilt all the time because I felt like I’d never thought I was going to spend the rest of my life making it up to these friends and these people that I had hurt that if any one of them would still have me. I will give you my all just making it up to you. So I did. You know and it’s like it’s all guilt. There’s very little of it that’s genuine. Like you say in your podcast that no guilt being I did something wrong to shame being I am something wrong or I’m a bad person. I just do a bad thing. I am a bad thing. And I felt that was just my nature. I wasn’t happy that I was doing it. And here I was doing it again. But knowing this is actually my road to happiness. It’s gone. All I can do is rip the bandage off as quick as possible and get it over with. Like with everybody just sorry. This is it. We will work it out later on. My relationship with my children established and all this will happen. But thank God that I had missed you through it all. Because there were moments of like just grief my mom. Nobody understood and everybody always said I wanted to talk and my disfellowshipped brothers and sisters more talk to me and I didn’t trust them. I didn’t trust anyone.

[01:49:08] I felt like that was all David’s life just took a quick upheaval. Let’s tune in and get the juicy details. And I didn’t feel like anybody who sincerely wanted to help me. They just were happy to have you back in the club of this fellowship. People join the ranks of us imperfect ones rather than being David the golden child who stayed in that mind your mom’s favorite or any of that. And I felt like I can’t trust them I can’t trust. Elder I can’t trust any former experience I had. I could not trust. It seemed like I was just trusting my heart and I was so happy. And I instantly knew this and I hardly knew each other but there was like I was starting to feel confused and things like I felt were soulmates. This was the only way it makes sense because I couldn’t know someone better if I’d been friends with them for. You know like I’ve been married eight years. I hardly had any idea who the person was as what makes them tick. I just kind of knew how the process was going to take and predict it like weather patterns but I didn’t understand currents and air movements behind those very much at all. Sure. Missy and I if we had been friends for 20 years we couldn’t know each other better and it was just instant. And I felt its happiness laced with guilt. But it’s what I needed because ultimately the guilt will fade and the happiness will stay. And I am I’m all in on this. Like I love this person.

[01:50:30] We weren’t saying it at that time but I had known it and I had thought we were soul mates and she had told me she had talked to a psychic about me and certain details like he had. I was tall and I had no tattoos and dark hair and light eyes and that was all correct. Okay weird. And then he mentioned that you know you had the guy I was looking for that was a possible future had a ring. But he’s not married because it’s on his other hand and I routinely wore my wedding ring from the first marriage on my right hand. So when I play music like bass or wherever it doesn’t click. I’m a good guitar neck on the threats and so like little things like that where that’s crazy because that’s a it wasn’t like I was taking off my wedding ring to hide that I was married that. It was just I don’t like the sound it makes from my instruments and little details like that felt like that’s a decision I made were out of control of anyone and I’m starting to believe that we were drawn together and the universe has a plan for us. And I don’t know why I had to do it this way but some higher power made it happen and it was literally like miracles and things that we would hope for. It was wrapping itself around bending it to our will. Just to keep our happiness going. And that was the first time I realized that you know what miracles are is it’s literally love it it’s like positive vibes and good energy things happen for you when you start being happy you know. And like when you’re witness and things are going well.

[01:52:00] I always had this like complex where I thought I’m not fulfilling Jesus commandment. They said he would persecuted to you know like if they persecuted if they hate me they’ll hate you other things are going great for me. What am I doing wrong that I’m not being persecuted. I want some persecution. It’s a sick way of thinking that when stuff going well for you you know you just follow right. You just talked about what we were talking about you know back when we first started this conversation which is you didn’t try to control things you leave things just be. And you found happiness by doing so. Yeah. It’s the same thing. And I won’t go into too much of my marital life and relationship because she is worthy of a podcast all her own. It’s just she’s the best and the happiness I have in my life. I just want do a series on relationships. I would model every good thing after my messy and I’m completely happy about it. However the panic that was happening at a time like when people thought well what do you do. My mom thought I was on drugs and I was being accused of such crazy things that witnesses do not understand and they thought like I was doing this to make some plan to hurt my then wife Jessica like further and at that. Are you insane. I just want to be happy I don’t want to hurt you think I derive any pleasure forever. Do we miss that noise. It hurts. It hurts my boys. I’m feeling everybody in the hall. Everybody is don’t.

[01:53:30] There was a kid I felt that struck me about this like I had insane courage to actually do this but you guys want to make it like this evil thing and. If you think I’m not sorry about it because I’m going through things because I’ve met with the elders and they said well you don’t have to have this. We had a judicial meeting and they said you don’t have to have this you don’t you know there’s room for you can save this. I know that they keep wanting me to say wait scratch that I’ll go back to this dreary situation because then you guys more disciplined me. I wasn’t going to say it. I said no it doesn’t. It’s not for that I said I acted like I’m a cancer and everything I touch I just destroy. And I’m no good for anyone except for right now. I’m good at moving this one person and that’s what I want to do for the rest of my life. And they said all right well they inform me they were disfellowshipped me and they said David we see your business up about this. We see that you’re sorry about this but you know it doesn’t have to end this way and they won’t like stop trying to offer me that. And I said no and they said well we have to dispose of you. I said Fine you have no other bar you have seven days to appeal our decision in written form. It’s a crime wave that let’s just made. As I say your announcement and I don’t want to like on this is my decision.

[01:54:46] And they like this third like talking to each other as opposed to s he’s wanting to make a decision. What do we do. They’re like no on the policy says that we have to give you seven days even though we respect that you agree with our decision not to just waive that right for a viewing. We are we’re going to still give you the seven days and then you say well enough I come to the hall. I’m still a believer in my life. I just need to be with this person. I can be a witness coming to meetings and be with this person. So I’m asking a few questions like Well when I come to the meetings that my kids see me and they want to sit with me even Norby just how can I help them. Can they come over to me and my not allowed to know. That’s a good question. We’ll have to do some research. I’m feeling just like all these people who thought it didn’t hurt because I didn’t see it. I didn’t eat for days. I bawled Missy ball with me. She hated to see that. You think she felt good about the position she was in being this side of it and watching me just beat myself up. She would have to remind me to have a drink in the water that was just bags under my eyes. I’m sure I had cried every ounce of water out of me. It was awful. It was awful.

[01:56:04] But for the first time I was happy on my own terms and I was living on purpose like not an accident like I was born in this religion and accidentally happened. That was my happiness. I was doing it on my own terms. But I still want to do it. If that made sense I just was changing. Democrats salutes me my wife and I. You know I don’t know what the story is that goes around in the circles about why we left but it’s not like it was an easy decision as to disassociate everything that we knew behind. It’s not like it was something we just woke up one day and decide it’s just like it’s not like you woke up one day and we’re like hey you know what I want to leave my kids over here and go be with this person over here. And you know it’s just a whim. No it was a decision that was made over time. And there was a long back story there. It wasn’t even just about you and Missy. I mean you’re living with a wife where you can’t be who you are there either because you can’t discuss your doubts because you have this call that has interjected itself and woven itself into every fiber of your being. And so it takes time to break all that down. There’s so much backstory to any one that leaves or makes a decision like this voluntarily and then people look at you and judge you as though. Well you know look at all the people he’s hurting like you like you didn’t take that into account when you made that decision. You know the fact is don’t you. Go ahead. Go ahead.

[01:57:47] I’m just going say the fact that you are willing to endure all that pain and to take all that on shows exactly how much it meant to you that it was this. This was a huge deal that you were making. You were willing to risk it all for something that meant so much to you which you would think that you like them would applaud because they believe that they you know they gave up their relationships with their quote worldly relatives and family and they left. Fathers and mothers and brothers and sisters so that they could gain something in their cult. You’re doing the same thing on the way out. And yet she has some sort of respect for that. No they don’t. Nobody gets. I think that’s fine because I don’t need them to get it. I was more worried about this. I’m not going to be my dad. I’m not in my life. You know I need to still have a relationship with my boys and explain to them Mom loves you and I love you but we are not together anymore and that’s not anything to do with you and I were just really like pick up the pieces start building my life but letting them know that I’m with Missy and this is what makes me happy. This is a person who is more me than I am at times and it’s just fun to be with someone who gives every breath you draw energy rather than saps your energy and you just feel like this is joyous It’s joyous. It’s not what I wanted it’s not what I had planned. When I started but I do believe something guided us together we’re in a better place.

[01:59:24] And ultimately the fact that it led to my freedom from the cult. I really believe that. But the funny thing happened is it’s all the dichotomy of what it is to pick up those pieces and work out with the ex how you’re going to see your boys and finances and who gets what and going into a divorce. Imagine all that stress rates and I’m still a believing witness. I’m not going to meetings just because I don’t feel I’m good enough to be in the hall at a time so I go to a few odd ones here and there. And never show up wanting to know again. And I remember there was this one time where our I was over dropping the boys back off at their moms house and we had mentioned something happened. I remember I forget what the world event was but I want her know I get that you hate me but don’t think I’m ever out like against you guys. And being that witnesses truly pound their leg. Concentration camps could happen and you guys might be rounded up the Jehovah’s Witnesses will be persecuted. That was legit fear and I remember offering to her like you guys ever have to go into hiding like you can hide with us. Like I want you to know like I will let anyone hide my boys or hurt you like you guys could. And she laughed in my face. Obviously she knew her side might be different. They were my boys would say.

[02:00:48] But I remember thinking like I had I was I don’t derive pleasure from your situation but if if they start rounding up witnesses and I know my boys are part Asian like I’m going to want to reach out and help shield you from the local authorities or whoever will be chasing you. And she laughed and that was just the normal witness conversation as far as I was concerned. It just didn’t have the result I had hoped that she would recognize it. For that I still cared about the well-being of these individuals. Even if I didn’t want to personally say I I’ve known go endure your presence forever because that was not what I wanted. I just don’t want to see people in concentration camps no matter who they are. It gets so much less my boys. And she laughed. I felt hurt. I remember I came home and I told Misty and Misty was like that was the first y’all I realized now I’m talking to not win her seat. She looking at me like I’m I’m insane. And I just thought I had told her where you use your clothes. You can laugh like that. Now that we are like Don’t laugh this is going to happen. And when it does I told her that she did. You know they could hide out at you know whatever I’d help in any way I could. And that kind of was the moment where Misty said I laughed at David and then he was like Don’t laugh because he really believes this. Which means they really believe that. Which means he offered it to that woman who hates him which means it’s a very plausible thing to him right now. I’m going to start doing research and that’s when it all really began.

[02:02:25] After telling Misty about the concentration camp thing and the possibility of us being persecuted where they have to go into hiding as she thought I’m going to look online and see what these witnesses AKAs the stuff he’s telling me is just the you know hunky dory paradise. Everybody gets a panda and you get to eat oversized grapes and all that stuff. So she starts looking into it. And as you can imagine I am like first of all took a lot of strength just to make a decision on my own life. But then the person I’m weird makes me so happy I’m overlooking the fact that she’s got like paranormal ghost like movies the seasons of the episodes and she talks slightly and others others other stuff and I’m thinking army and like this goes against every fiber of my spiritual being that these things are in the house I’m in but I love you and you’re not asking me forcing me to watch them. She was understanding and patient about everything. The same mentality came in here when she starts work researching witnesses. She starts to ask was this true lesson. Oh because sometimes the apostates put it in a way that is true but it’s so brushed off the broad stroke on the negative side. So it does. It’s false on its face as well. Sure. It’s like. So I’d start saying no that’s not true and she’s telling me she’s looking at different sites or reading a book and she starts reading this article book by Anthony James called Knock knock who’s there the truth about Jehovah’s Witnesses. And she took a picture of it.

[02:03:54] And at this time everyone is so curious about her simply for that like I hate even use the term but that other woman factor that she’s getting creeper is from the Kingdom Hall who went Who is she. Well I’m I’ll find out on Facebook or if you’re blocked I’ll look it up and so everyone’s looking it up and she’s kind of a you want to you’ll let it leave us alone like stop driving by the House and trying to figure out you know they just leave us alone like I want to be happy and yet one only thing about me fired. So she asked she wanted to post a picture like this is what I’m listening to this entire Jehovah’s Witness book. Before she even put it up she asked me Would you be comfortable if I posted this picture and I said no. I decide I’m sorry please don’t. And she’s like Well do you want to read the book. I say no because he’s a bitter apostate who just his story is not mine and he’s just going to have nothing but bash. I know what’s on that book. And so I don’t need to listen to it. You can listen to it. I love you and I always like we have us and we don’t need to have a religion between us. But I don’t want it to be divisive between us either. Can we have that kind of agreement and you listen to the book. And she came back at me again and listen to it and really understand what it’s like language in me like great Crowden of friends.

[02:05:12] They’re always like terms that witnesses use that as a person know with no frame of reference here is it it sounds like you know that reading about is an oil business economics that you don’t have a business economics degree you like. This book is awful it just goes over my head. But she’s still respected that she didn’t post a picture when she was listening to the book and I like that she really respected my faith she always even as she is doing research and finding things out about my own faith that I don’t know yet. Instead of saying you need to see this or really like shoving its spoon feeding it down my throat she’s giving you all this leg space to operate in just be me and she knows I’m confused hurt and grieving and there’s a lot going on and she’s just that patient kind loving person who says OK. And I’m not ready for it. And then she asks the question now what does this mean in the book you said that. No. Will they just say that. Well yes but that’s the extreme version of it. He’s trying to dispel some of these things right. And then I’m getting more and more upset with my own like local creationists as it is. I don’t remember when it came about but we Sturr watchings the Leah Remini Scientology series and under Ciccolo. I’ve said it before I’ll say it again. She is like the Rosa Parks of this cult movement. Like if they all come toppling down and she is a large esposa and everything like this is the spark that’s going to start a spectrum fire.

[02:06:44] I don’t think she gets enough credit because the brilliance of that series was I’m okay with making fun of Scientology because they’re crazy you know. So I give myself license to sit and watch this program on faith when I want to give this book she had about my own faith. The same license now however and this is the brilliance of that shock is it. I would never let an apostate in my ruber on my phone or through alterable device. I didn’t want to hear it. I didn’t want to hear it. I knew what it was about and I was scared of apostates and I didn’t want to hear it. Star watching the Leah Remini. Well yeah. That’s like inviting them in your living room. Come on in. Tell us about your faith you know. And so now she’s in the homes throughout the nation of a lot of people who would never let someone else of their own faith coming to their home. Talk about bad on it. And as we’re sitting there and that first statement rolls up on the screen about the Church of Scientology has this claim that might render Leah Remini are bitter apostates who left a lot of circumstances and were never really that good of members anyway. I’m thinking that could you could basically pick after Scientology on the bottom for what to do about contracts society. I would have indiscernible who would wrote that statement. It could have been typed up by anyone at Bethel as like oh my god. OK. Well I’m watching now anyway I’m watching.

[02:08:06] So we’ll see what happens when hear the stories of this crazy cause I want to hear about the guy leaving the planet and others you know stuff and the funny things of it. But as she’s talking about the people in her story and the stories I’m sitting there and I know Misty is more educated on my own faith in me probably with this book already and I’m starting to have those feelings again about I’m feeling things I can’t communicate to my me. I don’t want to know how much this is making my skin crawl because it’s familiar like I don’t ever want her to know that. Like when we look together and say yeah that’s crazy. Can you believe this what we’re seeing right now. And then I look back at a screen saying Good God she just even had no idea what I was. I kind of live that you know. And I tried to act normal just act like this is crazy to you not that it’s very familiar. And as it starts to really release us it will be another episode or another episode. Doors are Biskit are starting to really Krakow’s this disconnect disfellowshipped arm clearing the planet is a sweet term. You know when you’re helping the planet go clear and cytology that’s the same as like marauded language. Witnesses use the truth in the way or a low light in all that I’m just like many like you two twins. This is ridiculous to me. This is so similar. This is exactly something I went through the theology behind his name. But the processional like Don’t read anything from us former members. Okay. That’s exactly what I would say you know.

[02:09:32] This matches up almost 4 legs so eerie it was really eerie where then ever after enough of learning what a real Kalt was and being convinced Scientology was and then it had really really Hunzo uncanny similarities and things in common with my own faith. Well I’m out working one day I’ll give that book a listen. So I give the new James book a listen. And the first part is like memoir where he’s just telling his story. And even as he’s telling his story and very thinking’s Oh yeah well you’re a bad witness. You know you knew you were going into this and you’re going what do you expect. You know yeah your story stinks. You know by that feel for you and it’s clear for me to just say that you were a bad witness. You were never that strong. It’s no shock during the predicament you’re in. You know that’s what my judgment on witness mind was still saying through the memoir part I’m the victim. Yes. Then he gets to the part where he starts dismantling the beliefs. And I’m like oh OK exchange. Remember I remember how she hit me because I washed windows to work like any good Jehovah’s Witness. You know you pick something and you can do your own hours. Absolutely. And I was washing windows and I remember like getting to that part in the book. All right. I can’t work and listen anymore like this is sit in your car and kind of just take a few minutes and he got through all wives just a flawed system. And so my mind had already been like OK it’s it’s not the truth. It’s lies.

[02:11:06] It’s lies. OK I got that. It’s lies. I understand that it’s lies. And I hate that XYZ and thereafter go back to thank goodness but it’s imperfect men running off flawed system. And I accepted that. And then the very next chapter is now that we’ve dismantled the beliefs in and of themselves. Here’s the darker side. And he starts going into like what cults are with the bite model and I’m realizing I’m a guy now. I was ready to quit. It was a flawed belief system. I could handle that. These are imperfect men. You know they say as much right all themselves. But the fact that it was a cult and it had exerted control over me through theB.I tea and I just. It’s true it’s true it’s absolutely true and I think it was the last thing I wanted to admit. I could walk away from a faith realizing it’s not what it claims but the fact that they actually have a high moral agenda behind their group crushed me. I never wanted to say it was a cult. I wanted to say it was a perfect and I want to say it was flawed but there wasn’t that darker side of it. And that book really I remember just quitting work that day it’s a make of hours. And I came home crying and Misty was like I was raised in a cult. I have to admit that now I don’t. Last thing I ever want to admit there’s no joy you get from giving up that last vestige of that last ghost Ward.

[02:12:36] Yes it’s a perfect but it’s not a cult. It’s also it’s also a little bit of an ego hit to realize that somebody essentially pranked you that you were manipulated that somebody owns you in that way. It’s it took me a while before I could use a term called. Now I have no problem with that. But yeah it took me a little while before I could say the word cult because you know living in a cult is what those crazy bastards on TV. Did you see that that’s not me. That can’t be me. And then when you. But once I realized the manipulation and the things that were behind it the dark side like you said yeah I have no problem calling it a call now but it’s still those first times that I did. I mean it just like a gut punch just lies saying man like I gave decades on deck my life I wasted in someone else’s sick game. And and it’s something you can never get back. Which honestly is part of the reason I’m doing things like this podcast is because it’s I guess it’s just on some level my way of making something good out of it because otherwise it’s hard for me to accept that you know what else did I get out of that. Like it just took for me for all those years. Yes. Like I’ve gotta make something of this because otherwise I have a hard time processing processing it especially you know where I am now and seeing this is you know this is the only life that at least I have evidence of their being for me that I wasted what half of it in that.

[02:14:37] You know it’s it’s it’s a tough it’s a tough thing to come to terms with it is and I remember too like he is going through the book. Are you familiar with the book at all that the new James book. No I’ve never heard of this one. It’s own audible it’s good. Knock knock Who’s there. The truth about those witnesses is very good. And then he has a part in there where as he’s going through his dismantling of a bit like there’s some things that don’t resonate as strongly as that’s forgivable. Okay so the society did this. That’s forgivable. When he gets into the fact that like they were part of the United Nations. I was beside myself that they were registered members because I was raised with that book being some of my favorite pitchers in the world. The revelation book. I knew theU.N. was bad. I knew and then I’m thinking wait what. You know like I can if you didn’t understand a scripture. That’s one thing. Your mind wasn’t fully enlightened. The light Adiga. This is a deliberate action a political move and it disgusted me. And then you hear about the 1975 staff which like that they were buying they weren’t selling. They were like we always have heard 1975 be talked about in terms of the people who don’t like it were those who got greedy and sold. They’re both trying to get rich think they’re Bartletts. Then we heard about the ones who bought boats and bought the big houses thinking they all never have to pay off those loans because the end’s coming.

[02:16:02] That’s who was always portrayed to me were the better ones right. One his book said there were people who said what happened selling them. Selling my house. To give it to the society. Going give that money to the branch gonna send it to New York because I’m gonna finish the system pioneering good people who actually gave what they had and then when they became disillusioned that the society say sorry we were wrong here’s your house and boat back. Use all your materials. Heck no. They know they kept it all and I’m thinking now we’re talking rank and file good hearted people who are trying to do what was right not just misinterpreting the scripture like you had the power to release those funds back to them where you were wrong. Instead you shame them and you picked a few cherry picked examples of like someone maybe did sell their house or bought a bigger house thinking they want to have to pay it off and that person has right to be bitter but again they were only ever in that situation because of what you said. Like really killed me they didn’t really say those things. I know you know what’s crazy is actually as much as I’ve been on this like my family and everybody else and I recently had a discussion with my mom. My mom didn’t talk to me for her much through all this.

[02:17:15] I was on drugs and she want nothing to do with me and she said such things about she said them things about missing out really hurt and I just like actually your podcast this GW life helped me a lot when you would mention to your sister in law that your mom tried to smooth things over and her response was something like Why would I. You won’t talk to your son. Why would I want to have a relationship so I don’t either. That is exactly how it is like. And it’s not even about me leaving the faith that she wants to say that’s the reason she’s shunning me but like why would I want to do anything with you. If you are the greatest woman I’ve ever known. And now I’m married to is this way. Then why would I miss you to be your friend. Like I’m the greatest man she claims to have ever known and that you won’t talk to me please like so it became a very easy thing. However just recently my mom which is such a mess that situation because my family my sister got reinstated would be my mom really happy because now out of all the kids she’s raised. What you are the one was murdered of course but she’ll be in the paradise. And then my older brother is disfellowshipped so until he gets his act together he wanted my younger brothers to fellowship and until he gets his act together he probably won’t but my sister is back now and I’m in a ministerial servant about to give talks. So all this is her mindset. You know everything is good for her. Yes. However before before I do all of this. Even my sister kind.

[02:18:42] My mom comes down like cancer in 2014 I believe and we did like one of the last times we were all together as siblings was at this meeting where we think maybe mom’s going and she tells us all this stuff and I remember being a witness and treating them like it was fun sitting with them but also very condescending to how I sat around and talked to them and I thought they were all just like lost people and my sister and I wrote down together and she took it hard. Then she came back with me and the next trip she went down and I think the stress just got to her something but she had caved in on the ride one of these trips down dealing with her mom’s like stuff without me and she stopped about smokes so she starts smoking again. Right. The elders the local elders here show her mercy and say that she just needs to get her head right. They go to her house. They make calls on her to this day still saying well what can we do to get you to come back. Are you interested in this or that. It’s such a weird thing when I think of it. Now everything’s coming back to me ever once. I was out in service and I had no idea where my sister lived and I was at the door and my sister answers it and I called you know I roll my eyes. You are behind this door all day. I find you in service and instead of saying anything I just say hey for finished you work it no longer here. I have this book. She’d like to read it. Here you go. I kind of thrust the letter and then I start walking down the stairs.

[02:20:12] The guy I was with was he moved in after my glasses. And he won. He immediately started really happy about my and things and he was asked that I would say if you want to read it I tell him my dissociates sister. Then also she’s back home to. And it kind of became this thing where once she finally got back and then she just kind of started smoking again. Faded the elders know she smokes. They know a lot about her and they go over and they talk to her try to encourage her and I had already reengaged in the shunning. I hate to admit that but I started she’s living a life that’s not witness enough you or they have a slacker. You know Don label on her that says you’re disfellowshipped. I was taking the personal step and saying I’m not going to have much outside of this to do with her guy here I really hate saying that but anyway my mom still talking to her. Everyone’s talking to her because they view her as redeemable. They just got to get her to quit smoking and get coming to the Kingdom Hall again it should be fun. So they’re going through all the steps and then my life uproots right. I do all I do and I’m right away. A different case where I’m on drugs I’m evil. I did the unthinkable left the relationship and my mom walked up to me and then she still talking to my sister who’s living and I’m actually living a clean life you know the divorce Aguada as paper goes to the courts.

[02:21:47] My life was uprooted more suddenly than but you got divorced got remarried you’re living with someone I’m only married to you the only woman in my life and I don’t smoke or drink or gamble like Miles slaving away. I’m good clean person. And yet my mom won’t talk to me and my sister. She’s kind of in the middle of issues. I tell mom all time she’s being terrible do you do that like all of a sudden you are this evil person who Shonda and you’re just like dad. She won’t talk to you and then I go down to visit her as she lets me have cigarette breaks on her back porch. I come back in and she resumes talking to me just fine. And I’m thinking you know so there’s that family part of it that’s really confusing to me. I’m thinking far right. I don’t. You’re never going to be close to me and miss you anyway. But the double standard if you can talk to Julie cause she doesn’t have that label on her is ridiculous to me and enduring think that’s ridiculous. All of the siblings think it’s ridiculous that my mom would talk to her because she had faded even though clearly doing things against the witness way. But I was off the table as far as having communications and it’s like really really bizarre but we just she needed a ride somewhere recently so we had helped out. We got talking and I asked my mom you know we kind of mended some fences actually where we might not ever agree on a religion but we can maybe have a relationship with each other if she wants to do it and that’s the only cure for it.

[02:23:09] Like know who I am as a person and not like who you think I can be as a fixer upper if I just get back into religion. That’s off the table. Do you think my wife wants to be a she joins the religion that’s off the table just if you want to know who we are. That would be the basis of the relationship. But in this mending fences conversation where we kind of hash it out talk about Dad we talk about the elders. She tells me where she’s not happy with her current husband. She tells me all this other stuff and then I asked her Well what do you think happened in 1975 and she came in right around 1972 she was baptized but she says well we knew it was ending and this is the person who this is. This blows my mind. I’ve been thinking about this for like the last four days. She told me I went to Canada and I think I was right around 1973 74 or maybe and she goes and I heard a talk from brother Noor and Nathan HRN president of the society at the time in Canada at a convention she says he chastised people. We all knew the end was coming and he said what are you doing starting painting your house at this day and age and in this time in history like would you brag you know polished brass in the sinking Titanic or whatever. We shouldn’t be thinking about long terms like this. Your kids will never go to school. He gave some talk where they said all this stuff because 1975 was for sure the end.

[02:24:35] And she just told me this like 40 years ago and I was like what the president of the society at the time said that clearly. And she’s like yeah. And then she goes and I remember your dad and I were a little upset because shortly thereafter they started posting pictures and they sent pictures of like the Stanley Theatre being remodeled and the Kingdom half way. We were going to you know they told us not to paint houses because the end was coming in there and get this huge construction you know remodel going on like was it didn’t sit well with her that they were going to take on this huge expense in this giant endeavor of redoing this property. Not long after when they were the ones condemning the rank and file for beginning a long term project. And I was just dumb. I still am dumbfounded that you could hear a talk from the president say something in such clear terms. And she would. Mind you this is a fully indoctrinated woman to this day who still believes like every like she won’t. And I don’t get how she was able to put that to the back of her mind. But even at all these years later that kid that would never go to school has now been murdered and dead for almost 20 years. And her baby has gone through school and excuse me.

[02:25:51] It’s just to me that so long ago and you heard it in no uncertain terms and now you even know it like you heard it in no uncertain terms and you believe these people because while they’re imperfect she says in the Bible look at what they did give you an Korris God’s name and you have a lot of important things right. And I’m just like I can’t even I can’t imagine someone hearing that much. It’s mind blowing isn’t it. It just it just goes to show. Jehovah’s Witnesses could do any thing and still keep their members. Now they’ll lose some. There’s always going to be some attrition through these things but at some point I have a feeling they’re going to have to get rid of the year 1914 and I have a feeling that they’re going to do so they’ll do it quietly because you know time will go on and people continue to die and they will find ways around their doctrines and people will still believe it. Because again it gets down to what your mom said well look what they did give us or who else who else taught us Jehovah’s name. And it’s like Jehovah is not even an accurate translation of the word of the letters. It’s it’s all made up and it doesn’t matter to them because they’re on some level it fits some need that these people have and they are willing at this point I think it sunk cost. They’ve already put so much in it. They can’t afford to leave. Yeah that’s part of it. They think I can’t leave this because look I’ve already given so much to this. I mean it takes a lot of courage and it’s very hard to leave something like that to admit to yourself and to everyone else that you lived a lie and this. Yeah.

[02:27:55] And the thing is my mom she retreated deeper into the truth through all the trauma she went through in her life with losing her daughter and the husband. So she knew they really really went anywhere even knowing they got dissociative break or something that has that effect. She. They were there for her during those times. They were that’s what got her through those times. So it’s it’s her back now even if she’s unhappy with it and can see bigotry and can see double standards. I don’t think she ever will awake in that sense. But it’s funny because the thing is to like the saddest part is my mom is a lot like me in that she blames herself for everything and the society like has this thing about everybody else in our kingdom hall all his kids stating the truth. All their kids did and the truth stayed together. I got divorces and I got all these kids now on the fellowship and one who’s not. But basically she’s living a worldly life of sorts. No she’s not pretending to be a witness in any way and that doesn’t mean anything. What the good people are the people you raised but yet a witness mom sees herself as a failure. I failed as a parent because I couldn’t make my children ascribe to my belief system. And that is so sad.

[02:29:07] And then you get children like me and like anyone else with things I feel my mom because I couldn’t just buy any longer and it’s like you think a system that measures a parent’s success or failure solely based off of whether or not they join their religion they were born into a stay forever is like right there would be like if you were an accountant you know and you say if I can’t you know you might I couldn’t raise my kid to be an accountant I failed as a parent. Like this just ludicrous to me. There you know that you would expect that to be the same generationally. You’re correct. Well I mean I’m a good narcissist wants to churn out copies of himself and that’s what the organization teaches people to do. There’s a scripture in think proverbs An’s in the New World Translation that Jehovah’s Witnesses use it says train up a boy in the way in which he should go and he will not turn aside from it. Well I once heard in other translations. Instead of saying train up a boy. And the way in which he should go. Or maybe it’s in the way in which he should what it says in other translations it says train up a boy in the way in which he is bent. In other words. The difference is Jehovah’s Witnesses say train up a boy and the way in which he should go. Here is a prescribed way. This is the path and train up this boy to follow this path. Exactly. But there are other translations say train up a boy in the way in which he is bent. Or in other words in the way in which in that child’s strengths in the way that that child is used is instead of a prescribed path. It says OK look at that kid who is this child. What are his capabilities what are his strengths and weaknesses.

[02:31:05] Now let’s let’s hope this boy find the path that fits who he is instead of going along a one size fits all prescribe path. And that’s the difference between Jehovah’s Witnesses and a lot of other religions. Jehovah’s Witnesses have this one path and they believe that their children are to follow that path exactly and be little copies of themselves little mini me’s. And if they are not. If they fail to be able to live up to and be exactly what I am as the parent or as the organization then they are failures and I am a failure for not being able to get them to go exactly down that one specific path. And it’s very sad that the organization has even recently come out. I believe it was everyone’s favorite governing body member tight pants Tony Anthony Mora’s who came out and actually basically said that if your children fail to go down that prescribed path then you need to look at yourself and blame yourself and see what it was that you did wrong as a parent. That is disgusting. And it is the way that I mean if that’s not a cult. What is God you’ve been hearing it makes me so upset because you never want to wish evil on someone but something minor like I get some shampoo in your eyes. MORRIS You think you’re much more caring than I am I wish. But I really wish evil upon him. Now I understand. It’s it’s it’s so disgusting and it’s so twisted. And they watch that. Yeah I’ll watch that. Yeah. When it came out and I can’t remember it was in the last.

[02:33:04] I want to say in the last year too when when is this talk or this part was given. I just remember there was a lot of outrage in the Jehovah’s Witness community about you know just what a horrible thing that is to say to the parents of these ones and how it’s honestly kind of like using them as Jehovah’s Witnesses once again to get at their parents to say no to guilt their parents and to guilt these Jehovah’s Witnesses for leaving. Because look at what it’s going to do to their parents. Because we’ve now made them think that they’re horrible people because you turned out like you did. It’s just it’s so insidious and it’s so. It’s just it’s evil. It is truly evil. And that is it really is. I remember too when we stirred the governing body became more and more visible that we get to start seeing wow this is look they’re they’re so personable and they will mingle with the loans and you get to see them and I got to meet Geoffrey Jackson at one of the assembly that I was so proud of. You know I remember when we we get to be privy to what goes on at the annual meeting. And then when he got up there and did his you know tight pants around feeling like I kind of like the hipster Métro look actually I feel like that’s OK. But I’ll never forget afterwards. The like. My then wife Jessica and her sister in law at the time they were all talking like no.

[02:34:35] But they’re such comfortable pants should we should we not wear the yoga pants anymore and they’re already thinking about making life changes and I remember telling them like girls don’t be ridiculous like the dude you see his haircut. If I tried on stage with that haircut it was like wild off the back like like you tell that man to get a haircut before he’s going to tell you what to wear. Just like they do. They looked at me like I had no blasphemed. Basically by this remember thinking Don’t change your pattern no matter what you like. You know what. Discretion is where what you’re comfortable and you’re not going to the hall in that it’s like I felt like he was overstepping its bounds and had no freedom of speech to say such just looking how he himself looked on the platform that day. I thought yeah you know this is you just was really into that guy and see that guy. Is I’m not trying to use the word. I mean it’s a serious time not trying to use it as an insult. That guy is mentally ill. Well he is one of the most disconnected from reality. I think there is right think has problems and it’s obvious in all of these governing body members that have come out from behind the curtain. If you look at them I mean it’s Wizard of Oz you know pay no man pay no attention to the man behind the curtain because he’s just this little nothing. And that’s what they are. They have come out from behind the curtain and they have put their crazy on full display. And thankfully it’s woken some people up.

[02:36:11] But unfortunately so many people buy it which again shows that they’re not going to change and they can get their members to do whatever they want. They will buy into whatever next round of crazy they put out there. Yeah. So is that then woke you up. I mean ultimately this book ultimately I became fully awake by that book. But then I started listening like you’re a podcast you actually helped me a lot come not just from the fact that it’s one thing to say it’s a bad faith and it’s no longer for me. But then it’s another when you’re fully awake and you realize I want to pull the fire alarm and get everyone out that I can like that. When that happens it’s not just no longer not for me like that was because of podcasts like Um jt and Lady C they helped me a lot. I questioned the timing the critical thinkers stuff because right away these are probably two people who feel they wasted their lives because he was all the way up in Bethel and that he had given himself to really go on up in the organization and I hope that he never feels that way because what he was doing was actually building the credentials that I can listen to a podcast and say This isn’t some fake person just acting like a Jehovah’s Witness that wants to save their own message. Which do you believe any apostate could be a liar and all that this guys he knows the truth speak. He’s he’s got the language I was raised speaking.

[02:37:37] This is a legit person who’s legit experience and you can tell he’s research like I can hear it in his words that this person he had to do that path to build those credentials where someone like me who doesn’t want to hear necessarily just the bitterness but like crisis of conscience has a lot of heart. John Cedar’s has a lot of heart. Your podcast has a lot of heart. It’s not just rail against and bashing with. You’re just lookin for pitchforks and torches that mob mentality where the heart of people who were hurt and they did care and they just can’t unlearn the things they learned. That’s what spoke to me and I felt like GTM ADC. They come from. He raised raising Canada but maybe Michigan or DC now so I forget where they’re from but anywhere they live in a big city and I remember feeling like for me in my whole little town where all the elders knew me and hearing them from an urban area with a bigger congregations and lots of shifting moving parts in the city. I felt like very relieved that all this is not. It’s not just my local elders are a botched job like the organization the world over. It’s the same in the rural as it is in the city. This is how the organization is run and it was very nice to see that in an urban area they got the same problems they got the same. It’s not just a click because I live in an area where Renaults are aware that it’s all over. That’s that’s the witnesses as universal as they claim their love is their flaws are just as universal not lately. And that was really good for I heard that podcast and he’s so researched I would hear him break a point down.

[02:39:17] And you JT knows this stuff. You can just feel it through the words and then yours. Help me a lot from a personal journey because I had naturally like all of them even the little things like I had put on weight and my unhappy marriage. No surprise there. And now I’m keeping it off. And believe it or not masturbation is not a problem for me. It literally just dissolved once my mind was happy. It was like some anxious habit I was doing through all those years of unhappiness and I have a wife now who I respect as a person an individual and even when I was a witness I hated the way they treated women. I had known readers who were like awful I’m thinking get this guy off stage there are ten sisters in here who can read better than him you know and I’ve felt like what do you guys get this idea that women can’t speak up or you know even in the Bible that if they have a baby girl they’re unclean for twice as long instead of just like seven days. If it’s a boy 14 if it’s a girl. The Bible is a book that’s just horrid to women. You know. I started to feel really like it’s not a timeless book it’s not a book that has a lot of truth for me and I’m becoming fully awake and then I hear your story. Your podcast help me and I start to realize my own experiences tell me that there’s a spirituality by firmly believe it’s an individual pursuit. It was never ever ever meant to be institutionalized.

[02:40:40] You can talk to someone about your experiences and spiritual beliefs but like it’s your relationship with the creator. That’s all it ever is and it’s not meant to be chargit. You know I’m gonna let ever trusted again to any institution be it. Lutherans or Buddhists or Daoism kind of appeals to me but that’s more just a philosophy than a religion. And I feel like there’s a lot of just you know your yes your mantra that you say you know love others do no harm and go be happy like that’s just how I feel. And then I heard you talking about. You put on weight and you ask that through my fitness pal which I had to go through. And now the weight stays off. Now my bad habits I was never liked my anxious things have stayed off and I’m happily married and you get to realize what a happy marriage is and my life is infinitely better except for my kids are still being raised in this religion. However I’m so glad that they have me in their life because I think through through me and Mesi and exposing not like letting them see for themselves that my way of life is probably just not attractive enough on its own. Yes they’ll grow up and they should be wiser than I was and I don’t want them. I just sent an e-mail to their mom not long ago like basically saying I don’t want them baptized until they’re 18 if we can work that out. She didn’t respond but I thought there’s too much history of holding a young child to this forever. When they make their decision making at that point is ridiculous.

[02:42:10] There’s no way they can grasp that they won’t think the same later than they do now and then Gina respond. I thought like if they do you can believe what you believe but don’t shun them. You know what I don’t want them to ever feel like their no kids should know the pain of being treated like their dad when they’re still alive. Isn’t that that interesting. I was actually thinking about just that when you were talking earlier about how you know you had this first baby and you were holding this baby. This kid of yours and you were just thinking about you know how much you loved this new than a life that you know and I was thinking you know can you imagine then turning around and shunning them because no what think what you want with me. That was another thought. I always knew that we kind of made fun of my ex-wife and I just forgot the time when I was in that organization made fun of my mom because we knew she was talking to my disfellowshipped brothers and sisters. But every time she talked to us she was like oh I don’t really have any unnecessary communication with them but she always like that throw those disclaimers out you know like your overcompensation for how little you talk to them. Makes me believe that every time you talk like I was disfellowshipped once Mom I know that you have you in your own way. You hobnob and you justify all the excuses to do it. And then my then wife Jessica was very hard on the idea like yeah that’s not right.

[02:43:36] You know and I was like you know you revisit your families all in the organization. Well Sue Smith my son ever decides he’s going to do some. Well then we’ll see how you act. But in my back or mind I could never voice it. But I knew I don’t. I’m going for as much as we laugh about her trying to cover up that she’s talking. I’m probably going to be the same guy and just talk to him all the time because hobnobbing or whatever it is like because you lost support. Yes. I mean you haven’t yet had you. They didn’t do a successful job of rooting out your humanity in the cold. They didn’t. They didn’t destroy your. They didn’t deaden your feelings. They didn’t destroy who you were. And you know that’s something they do to most people. So I would say honestly including myself they had destroyed a large part of yes my sensitivity and made me very hard and dark so their god it’s funny when you hear it now because now I feel so free like I feel like you know when a plane crash goes down and everything burns up and all the bodies are you know everyone dead right. Yet they recover that little black box and can tell you what happens. Some part of me that humanity that little black box was recovered and I rebuilt myself and there’s a new clean around. And it’s just the best feeling to feel like God. The crash and burn hurt but now that you’re you again I mean for the first time in my life.

[02:45:09] It’s exactly like October I went to my brother my brother’s wedding and this is the first time he’s been married and I’ve missed every sibling’s wedding. This is the first time a Brabin Earthlings wedding because I was too high and mighty to not oh I heard through the grapevine mom that you know things that happened to my one brother was married and I never said Congratulations when’s your anniversary I’m glad to hear it for your heart. I hope you’re happy. I was just like oh good. Just one more call that Satan has in you that keeps you in his world. You know there was such condensation about it and to go there. I was beside myself with giddy joy and just tears all the time and apologizing. And even though these are ex witnesses so they get the game. My brother Ruben couldn’t be better. He was like dude don’t I get it. I’ve been stuck. That is the part is that we’re here to be happy with you that way. Thanks for having me here today. And you know there is that touch of hurt where there is no doubt in my mind. And I hate to say this like it matters it doesn’t. But I always knew growing up I was going to be the best man ever that Rubin’s wedding music gave me the best man. Right. And then our lives derailed. We fell out of contact. And I was just happy to be in attendance. You know yeah was ever something that weighed in the balance when it occurred to me as a child. Yes. So then.

[02:46:40] So you mentioned your children then are currently I guess they are with their mom the majority of the time. And maybe yeah we got the weekends and like extra time they have off from school and like somewhere I can get them for longer spurts if I wish. But I’m on basically the alternating weekend schedule. Gotcha. And so. So then they are are they primarily being raised then as witnesses currently. Well not here not here. They are over there. But my ex has actually gotten married too. So they’re struggling they live in a bigger city now and they miss their old home. They’re adjusting to a new man. Like you know one is for and he’s going to be for February. He’s pretty easy to well just because he’s so young still. No one who remembers everything now he’s 7 but he’s starting to exhibit some so he’s got some behavioral stuff that he’s an angry 7 year old. My parents got divorced. You’re young confused who the world does make sense and your mom tells you dad is not going to make it into paradise and you love your dad and you hate that that’s a thing. It’s she shouldn’t have to worry about that. So we tried to make very clear boundaries of like can I ask. Has that literally happened that has. That’s a true thing. Yeah. You. His mom has really told him that you want to be in paradise. Well someone has because they came they came to my house one time one visit and he was having a moment where I sat him down and talk we’ll go out with as well. What’s why are you acting this way.

[02:48:11] And he was you know crying until her dad. Are you going to be in the paradise. You know I say what. No I don’t. Misty was there as she cast that and thankfully because she’s got a really good way with that as well. Some people call her. Some people call it heaven. Some people you know make an eternal reward and I doubt whether his grandparents or his mom or whoever said it that even if it was just inferred that anyone who doesn’t go to them that’s why do you think that he says you don’t go to the meetings and I say right. You know that this the Bible say you have to go to meetings to make it in producer doesn’t say that God judges your heart. And I asked them what do you think of my heart my good man or a wicked man. And he’s a good man. Yeah. And only God can see that right. So he gets to make a decision. So whoever said I wasn’t going to they don’t get to make that decision. Only God knows my heart. And I think you know my heart when you smile and laugh that we were just like. It’s a messed up seem to think. To see those pictures that kids see and think oh my dad that could be him that could be them you know he’s not alcohol and I just feel for them. However the great thing is now we’ve established I are very good at like we’ve got a lot of counseling the two of us. And I want my kids to go to counseling.

[02:49:27] I want people to talk about their feelings and we will talk more and be open communication. There’s a lot and we’ve already got him where he’s excited about. We don’t tell him you have to talk about Christmas you’re celebrating Christmas with us but when he’s here. Like any kid it’s just normal. He jumps any wants to make Christmas tree crafts he wants to be which presents have my name on them and he knows that he’s to get birthday parties at me. And I asked him how that went. His mom said she’s not mad at me if I want to do it. She said OK I mean you’re obviously mad at me but I think that’s good because know if you want your kid first of all the onus is on her if she wants to enforce all those things especially the gray area stuff that witnesses teach like not just interpretations of the Bible but like the birthday stuff is like to why he can’t be a football you explain to him why he can’t have a beard if he wants one like you explain to him why. Yes it’s a suit but the cuffs around the ankles are too tight like honestly like. If you want that the onus is on you to explain it which hopefully will spur her to really do more research. And anyone who does enough research enough questions are raised and you start to realize much like I was realizing I don’t have a good answer for why I went to a blood transfusion or that I could ever shown him. I don’t have that answer. You know they don’t. It doesn’t. My heart says a different answer.

[02:50:48] And I just feel that is the tough questions are raised to a person that they have to think about maybe they can think about them and whether or not they ever wake up. I believe my boys through our household and I’ve fought and fought for some of their rights like at school he can do a gingerbread house. Coming up this season and we sat down I was doing at the conference as to their father away. But as the teachers asked us well what fast can they sing what can we do here. I actually got I won this argument out where I got them to say I want him to have a choice if he says he’s not comfortable singing a Christmas song Don’t make him do it but don’t just remove him from the classroom and he has to feel that you know he’s already dealing with a lot just moving there and everything in his life but that ostracism and now I’m not normal. It’s like giving him the choice and realizing he can use his voice and has the power of his own voice should give him a sense of I’m worthy. I’m important my voice matters and I will tell him there’s no there’s no harm in singing a song. It was a Christmas song. What’s a winter song is Jingle Bells say anything about Santa Baby Jesus or is it just wintery. Like like I want him to be able to use his mind and encourage critical thinking skills where eventually it’s going to poke holes through flimsy arguments rather quickly but I fear. I think that he’s there showing it.

[02:52:12] You know it’s easy to throw a kid wants candy and cake right but I want him not to feel like it’s just a reward if he says hi or happy birthday to a kid on his birthday. It’s classroom. I said the schools are separation of church and state anyway. They’re not going to be like our religious institution where beeg thought he had the bully removed. And then I kind of e-mail the teacher and teachers start this thing and I could hear on the other line you know she was just hating every second of it but kind of knew she was on the ropes so she had to agree she’s like. OK. He has a choice. If she if he has a choice or he doesn’t let him sing a Christmas song. Well we’re not on the same page. How do you feel and she would say but then she kind of had to say if he has the choice it’s just it’s not a religious institution that can’t be that damaging to anyone’s face. And so at least he’s big at the freedoms that I never had. You know the nation and either different. Yeah. Yeah. And I’m showing it to them in a way that like most witnesses when you leave want your life to fall in shambles you know and the fact that I have a good clean life attractive and things are going well. And it has nothing to do with blessings from Jehovah. I think that they’ll be really smart enough to just see that it speaks for itself or even if they decide they want to be witnesses. I hope that they decide it.

[02:53:37] If that’s what they want and then if they get themselves disfellowshipped and say oh geez Marcia treated me differently then dad who is the exact same he takes my fourth car he tells me he loves me and I could be whatever I wanted and he’s happy to just say spread your wings son you’re my son. And I just wanted to have kids to watch them grow. You know it becomes something more than what they were. That’s all I’m in this for you know. So what about you. What you have any dreams for your new life. I mean any goals for the future something that you and Missy or just you or looking forward to. Well goals. I just want to be happy I want to see the world I want to travel. I’ve got a dog now and we just got this puppy and I take our walks all the time. And I used to have a dog and it was a bad honor. I was terrible dog owner. He stayed outside. Is he going to be in the house because the allergies of like my in-laws when they would visit so he was outside all the time. I never walked him because it was literally go windows all day or go on. I did a bike ride I had to do things and then you come home and you’re something Craddock stealing your time. You know I was a bad business owner because it’s work work work all day and age being like I’ll leave this job half done and then come back and finish and like I get to be a good dog owner. I get to be a good business owner.

[02:55:01] I get to be better at the things I’m already doing in wanting to do because I can more fully invest myself and not feel like it’s a guilt you know how much time did do. Doing this activity like I’ve been taught to Bob bicycling as much as I have. They said wow you know how much this is by are you going to be a the. What’s the point and say Oh well then why why why why train as many hours as you need to. Well don’t you think those hours in the ministry would be better than you know like hours on a bicycle and stuff. And I just do I get to live and I can go to a movie and not worry if it’s like where radar has it’s like I’m an adult. And if it has nudity or whatever it may have I think I can handle it. You know I will walk out the same person that walked in and just say yes that was excessive our former opinion about or whatever. But when you if you just get to if you don’t want to just you you get to be me. I get to learn who I am. I’m a real dog hunter this time not just somebody who wanted a pet but never had the time to do it the right way before. Because it’s a responsibility. It’s a task and I had already felt over responsibility and task in her well that’s beautiful man.

[02:56:19] I mean ultimately it sounds like you found happiness and yet so you know you know like I think it’s an amazing place to be when you don’t have to have you know these future goals that you know you’re hoping like this will bring me happiness or some dream or something because you live in the dream you do your being who you want to be and you’re doing what you want to do. And you know that’s all any of us can hope for. And that’s exactly what Jehovah’s Witnesses steal from people so you have taken it all back. And I think I wish you the best and I think that that’s that’s a beautiful thing and you know just like I say at the end of every podcast I guess love others do no harm and go be happy. It sounds like your. Is the dream Oh I always had a hard time to like even going on vacations you know how when you go on vacations or there’s a kind of holiness towers stop. And my ex-wife. She was always somehow she has this balance but she’s die diehard at the same time where they have no problem not going to a meeting. But I would always have a guide we should be going it’s Sunday. You know we should be going you know we should we should do this and say well all vacation and it’s like you have a disconnect. Where does that come from. I wish I had that. And yet she’s someone who would never ever probably leave the organization and yet me as a person who felt guilty. Any time we traveled somewhere I should be at a meeting hour. Are we going to bring a suit just in case. And it’s and it’s like that’s my life now is I get to travel anywhere.

[02:58:00] I don’t care about me. It’s nice to not worry. Am I going to get my time in on this part of the month. That’s it’s just I’m living my life and on my own terms not on the mere accident. I was born into a faith that my mom decided she liked I want to thank you for listening to David story today. The final part of this story a bonus episode will be released next week in Please subscribe so that you can get it in all of these stories automatically as they’re released. Each time please also show David and other support by going to my Web site shunnedpodcast.com and if you go to the episodes page there you can leave a comment for any of the people who are telling their story. They can not only read but they can also respond to your comments. So just go to shun the podcast dot com and go to the episodes page and you’ll see an individual post for each story and you can reply and comments on those stories. You can also find links to things on there that have helped each person as they were waking up and leaving the cult if you want to hear my personal story. You can listen to a podcast called this JW life or go to the Web site thisjwlife.com. And that was my personal story. It’s a nine part series. And you can if you’re not familiar with the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses you can really learn a lot there about how they function what they teach.

[02:59:44] Alongside my personal story one find a way to show support is to leave a review on iTunes just leaving a five star review leaving your personal comments whatever it is that impacted you. This helps other people to find the podcast so that they can get the help that they might need as well. So I’ll send this one out the way I send them all out love others do no harm and go be happy.