Episode Fourteen – Kacey is shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses

Kacey Is Shunned By Jehovah’s Witnesses

[00:00:41] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we expose the high control religions that you shunning as a tool to control people. Today’s episode is personal to me. It features somebody that I know that I knew in my own congregation when I was growing up and it shows the damage that can be done through the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses you’re going to see how the cults and the culture around an in it can really steal a person’s life. Of course you’re also going to get to see how a person can come back from the depths of despair and find happiness in life. Kacey is telling this story even though it could have some ramifications for her personally as she’s taking a stand today. So many people have been hurt by this cold. And lives are ruined or even destroyed at times. And it may be that we all have that point in time where we are we know we have to take a stand for truth. You know I remember being a kid and there was a relative of cases that was out knocking on doors with my mom in field service. I remember my mom coming back to the car and telling us how bold her relative was because something she said at the door she told the woman well ma’am sometimes the truth hurts. And you know we all thought that was so great. Oh you know how witty that she told this lady in response to some objection the lady had to something she had said that you know that sometimes the truth hurts.

[00:02:14] Well you know who would have thought that so many years down the road we would have all found that out to be true. The truth hurts Jehovah’s Witnesses that would listen to this would be agitated by it. And why. Because the truth hurts this podcast and others like it hurt them. Why. Because it’s the truth. And they’d rather hide behind convenient lies having their ears tickled as they used to say and they aren’t concerned with actual truth but rather with the truth. Their religion so let’s hearK.S. story learn about her life and how it was impacted by growing up as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. My name is Kacey. I am 34 years old. I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I am shunned. All right. So then how did you come to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the first place. How are you. When I was about 2 or 3 years old my mom started studying with the witnesses. So I don’t really remember anything but going to the Kingdom Hall when being a Jehovah’s Witness have like some spotty memories. I remember riding a tricycle when I was about three years old and my mom and dad telling me that my my dad had bought that for me for my third birthday. But I don’t remember like ever celebrating any holidays or anything. I don’t remember that being a birthday party. I just remember having a go Red Tricycle. I am my man and my and my uncle and their mom my grandmother they had all studied with the witnesses at random times in their lives. I know my mom studied English.

[00:04:00] She was about 14 or 15 she studied and went to meetings for a while but she didn’t really take. You know there was no commitment made there when they were younger. That didn’t come until until my mom started studying when I was about two or three years old. How old do you think she was then when she started studying again for the second time. Probably around my age and in her 30s and so there is a pretty big gap there. Yeah yeah like 15 20 year gap. Yeah it’s kind of amazing how you know once you’re exposed to the religion it kind of seems to stick with you even if you get away from it like that you know she was just the kid she studied but yet you know here you know decades later it is coming back into her life. Yeah and one thing about my mom is she went through some trauma with my brothers and a guy that she had dated. And at the point in her life when the sister knocked on our daughter when I was 2 I really think my mom was just looking for something to cling to and see this was familiar because she had already started it for a while when she was younger. So in her mind I think that like Gyges came full circle because no Jehovah was trying to lead her back or something. I mean I never really ask her a lot about is she. She won’t talk about any of the trauma that she’d variant so that she saw my own personal life per statute perspective I guess. Oh no no no that makes total sense. I think a lot of people are attracted to the religion because it’s a sense of surety.

[00:05:51] It’s a prescribed path that you can take in. And you know you can hand over traumas and things like that to something that you perceive is bigger than you. So I can definitely understand why that would happen. So then you were pretty young and it doesn’t go back many generations. You know just to your grandmother who studied later in life as well as for you what did it mean to you back then. You were a kid growing up in it. Well it was confusing. My life was really confusing. My dad was raised Catholic and very very strictly opposed to my mother’s studying with the witnesses. My dad’s family is the type of family that while they love each other they put most of the focus on their family time around holidays. So you’re talking Christmas Thanksgiving Easter. Those will be like big times for my dad’s family to get together and then they probably quinsy each other for the months in between the holidays. So it was really hard for my dad to accept that my mom was converting to this religion where there were no holidays there were no birthdays. She spent so much time away from home. And he was really oppose like I remember as a child my family dynamic especially around Christmas for the week before Christmas the week of in the week after my parents barely spoke. My dad would just kind of walk past us like we weren’t even there. Jelic he was really really upset about it it caused a lot of arguments in fighting between Hilsey. My mom stood firm because that’s what she was told to do.

[00:07:52] And my dad stood firm because he he was a momma’s boy Matt my dad and his brothers were just raised father mom. They never had their dad so he would have done anything to to keep his mom happy. You know he didn’t want his mom to think badly of him so. So you know and that’s the way he was raised he went to Catholic high schools. So it’s just something that that was I guess probably their one of their biggest arguments and something that tore them apart for many many years when I was a child and other than that. Growing up as a Jehovah’s Witness in school was horrible. Look I hated it. I wanted to be like the other kids. I’ve always been like a little bit of an awkward childhood. I have older brothers. I’ve always been more like I’ve always been to rock music in metal like me my brothers my two older brothers are eight and 12 years older than I am. And so when my mom and dad were at work they would babysit me and it would just be like a party BAM you know we were like a lot the Pantera and Slayer and you know they’re smoking cigarettes out the back door and I see this and I just like my brothers you’re so cool. Her hair oh is like the awkward you know I wasn’t the cheerleader or the ANC. You know I was I was the captain of the safety patrol at my alma mater. I’d rather get a total book worm like I. People didn’t like me so I decided I didn’t like people.

[00:09:38] They all made fun of me because I was a Jehovah’s Witness because of course on those first days of school when I have to go to my teacher and say hey here’s you know here’s this chapter pamphlet on why I can’t salute the flag. And my mom sends letters saying make sure that she goes to the library if there any holiday celebrations or birthday celebrations you have to you know single her out and take her to the library. So that was my life books. Yes. So that’s what I did which is bury myself in books. Makes sense you got to escape. You know. However you can try to find your place. Yeah. So then that’s what it was like at school. What about at home what was your life like at home growing up. You said a little bit about you know being babysat by your your brothers. Now your brothers. Were they witnesses at that time. My older brothers never got baptized into the religion. My they are not my dad’s biological children but you would never know because my dad adopted them like he loves those boys. You know they call him dad. He says those are his sons are but they weren’t. They were older I guess my mom just didn’t enforce it on them the same way she did us because they rebelled a little bit. And while they would go to the meetings they they were never in it. You know what I mean. They were like physically and mentally out from the beginning they just weren’t buying it. They were too old. They were already into their own things.

[00:11:17] And so I just think that my man put more emphasis on me because I was young enough that she could raise me up right in it. You know as my she couldn’t so and then my brothers asked so both of them fell in love and got a girl pregnant at a very young age. My oldest brother I think he had his first daughter when he was 16 hour seven. I think I was four when she was born. And then my second oldest brother when he was 15 and had been seeing a girl who was 21 and got her pregnant. Oh yeah and that was like a huge scandal and you know he wanted to do the right thing. So at age 16 when their child was born a baby even got married right before. My nephew was born but he moved out. You know when he was like 15 and started going to term I can’t remember what the name of the high school is. You work half a day and you go to school half a day. So it’s like a co-op type thing. Yeah. No. He could he could. And they lived together and raised their child. For me my I have a younger brother who he has some mental and physical limitations. He has autism and cerebral palsy and so most of the focus in my house was really put on him. So I was just kind of a I was expected to just do the right thing like I wasn’t allowed to mess up as a kid like it wasn’t acceptable for me to just do things that kids do.

[00:13:10] I kind of had to learn to always be mature and always realize that my little brother comes first. Now as an adult. Of course he comes first because he has. Of course he comes first you know he has a scar here and he uses a lot of a lot of need. Yeah. And it’s now I understand. But as a child I was just starved for like I wanted attention. So I would get really hyper and go out and run around and no I wasn’t always that way. I remember a time where I would just like sit on the floor coloring book all day color for hours. Other than that my my dad was an alcoholic and so he was very abusive. He was very verbally and emotionally abusive. And as I got older I don’t want to say he was physically abusive like he beat me every day. But if he came home and it had enough to drink and that I didn’t do it. There was like a couple dishes left in the sink. I was I was catching one to my backside for sure and my dad is a very big man and I honestly don’t think that in his sober mind he would have ever done anything like that. But it made for a very like tumultuous childhood and kind of walking on eggshells. I never knew if my dad was going to be drunk when he came home or not or what was going to happen. It caused a lot of anxiety and I just remember having a really confusing child as far as know not where I belong.

[00:14:58] Sounds very confusing I mean it on the one hand you have you have the religious divide between Jehovah’s Witnesses and Catholicism and you know the obvious rift that that caused you know around holidays and just different factions of the family and then you’ve got you know you’re your own person and you’re trying to make it. But you know at school you’re you’re ostracized because you’re one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and then you’re your dad. This he’s got his own issues. And I’m sure that made you feel very isolated there even at home. So yeah it would be hard to to feel like you fit in. Did you did you feel like so then what about at the Keenum Hall. Did you feel like you fit in there. How was life. And you know as a child there in the church you know I never had never felt like I. Well most of the girls there were actually growing up in that hall a decent amount of kids that were around my age guys and girls. And so there were plenty of girls for me to go to their house or whatever or spend time late or play with their call my friend. However my dad was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and most of their guards were there guards were elders. And like I said I was always kind of like a weird cheerleader and aquatinted I didn’t really follow the dress code you know how old it was. It was rough. There were times where I’m the I’m OK.

[00:16:50] So one instance I can remember is that when I was about 12 I had been invited to a summer party for the girls in my congregation and I was so excited because I thought there you know the tide is turning white things are going to change I’m going to have friends I’ll actually have somebody that I can talk to and not not thought they wanted me there. We give them get there. It’s really I’m super nervous because I don’t know how to act in front of other girls. I was raised with boys. And you know as as a Jehovah’s Witness you don’t get to play with other kids so you go to school with you don’t get to play with kids in your neighborhood or I didn’t see them some day but I never got to do those things. The only girls that I had in my wife were my cousins and they were both very tomboyish just like I was. So I didn’t know how to mix with girls who were girly and did their hair and painted their nails. So we go to this summer party and were in the basement of one of the girls grandmothers and so the girl that was hosting this sleepover look set me at some point during the night and says you know the only reason you’re here is because my grandma was going to cancel my summer party if I didn’t invite you. That’s welcoming. Yes. I just wanted like I just pretty much sat in the corner by myself for the rest of the night. Fighting back tears because I didn’t want to let them know that it got to me and I so wanted their acceptance. You know I just wanted to be a part of and am and that hurt you both in their work.

[00:18:49] There were a few other times where they would have sleepovers invite me but then it’s always in the back of my head that the only reason I’m here is because somebody whose mom forced them to invite me. So then they would try it. They should preempt this by saying s I was drawing we had some issues in our house as well. Jehovah’s Witnesses would not say your house is haunted they would just say like you have demons or you brought an item into your house that had a demon has attached you or whatever. We had a really really crazy things that were happening in our house. My dad he got punched like in in the face one night and there was nobody there. He he had a fist. He had physical marks on his body from being attacked. Mike my toys would move all around. I had a teddy ruxpin doll and he would open and close his eyes and move his head in his arms. You know it was really scary. Elder Kivy dolphin Yeah yeah it was a creep. My parents actually took one back to the store and exchange shit for another one because they thought it was just a some sort of malfunction of the toy. Right. And it still happened with the excellence the elders of the congregation even came to our house. Unlike a shepherding girl and we had to throw out everything that we had and start over and paint the walls in like do all this crazy stuff that I didn’t understand why I had a hearing on my voice. I think has made you do that that was their suggestion. Yes.

[00:20:38] And yet that was their suggestion was that you know we get rid of everything because you know my mom went to their stores Nazo a lot. We weren’t rich just you know grown up. So they the only explanation that they had was that someone had either been practicing like witchcraft or demonic spiritualistic ritual isn’t something that that we had bought from this yard sale or thrift store had had been attached by a demon or something. I was I was young when it happened. But I do remember we have had talks about this family night. And you know there’s no there’s no like haunting or evil energy. You either got angels demons away to help us when this really did. Pretty much everything’s on the mend. So if you’re not emitting them the following year you know it’s Sunday best of the Bible you’re here. So I’m Bega. That was their suggestion was that we get rid of all these games that we painted the walls. I mean a lot of things. My dad got rid of every art read he had just a lot of things that they said could be a channel for these demonic whatever. So the girls at the hall they would.

[00:22:06] Two of them their dads were elders and I remember them asking me about this one time when I was at one of their houses they were asking me about the demons in my house and I was just kind of like glad they wanted to talk to me so I’m telling them this crazy stuff that’s happened and then they turn on me they’re like oh well I don’t want to be around you you scare me that those stories are scary and then they went back to their elder father’s who is probably who they got the information from in the virtual to say because they shouldn’t have even known that that information that’s all supposed to be confidential. Exactly. And they tell one little girl told her dad that I was telling them about stories of demons and that I wouldn’t stop talking about it and that I was scaring her. So they made me go home. And like I didn’t bring it up and come here to see what they did. But that’s just like that’s just how the dynamic between me and the other ladies at the Kingdom Hall when I was younger it was not a good you know it wasn’t right Father Yeah I would have much rather hang out with the guys in our congregation because I did get along with them but that is inappropriate. You know you’re not allowed to have male friends unless you’re trying to marry one of them and then you don’t even really get to know each other until after you’ve married this person there’s no courting it’s almost arranged in a way. So I was homeschooled starting in middle school as well. Was that to get you so that made my wife. You there to get you away from like worldly influences at school or something. Yeah just tighter grip on you. Yes. And my parents had also. They had also taken custody of my cousin which is a whole other story but it’s a different chapter and they’re taking custody of my my male cousin and and he was like a brother to me.

[00:24:21] You know we had grown up together and had at her grandmother’s house we were very close to me and my cousins my parents are taking Kersee of him. So he had a really really bad ETG like he was very hyper he couldn’t pay attention to anything. He had really bad learning disabilities and school so my mom maybe she could take a leave from work and home school the both of us. And so that’s what she did. So it worked for me. I can’t on really quickly it did not work so well for my kids. So they let you know they were better off as a person who is a little bit HD myself. Self-learning in that kind of environment without structure could be very difficult. Yes. Yeah. And you know I’m almost a working part time so sometimes she would just give us our assignments and say finish season more go over the answers when you’re down. And so I ended up helping him and teaching him more than my mom did an extent because we were there together all the time. So and I caught on I’m a pretty bright person I’m I’m fairly intelligent and I got good grades anyway so. So it was fine. But you know it it was hard to keep up with my schoolwork and math when my mom had to go back to where her my dad were both working full time. And I’m trying to you know take care of my little brother who has his disabilities.

[00:26:13] And from about the age of 12 until I moved out that was you know my responsibility was to get my brother his medicine because he had to have special medicines certain times of the day or he would have seizures and put him on the bus make sure he got off the bus make sure he had snacks make sure you know he was clean and then in the summertime when he was on summer break he was my responsibility full time at the law to put on a kid. Yeah it is. I don’t remember ever being on time though honestly that I regretted that because I left my brother. And you know I would do anything for him. He is he’s like my kid in a lot of ways. He’s here you know because we were so close growing up and then you know to take care of him the way that I did. I never regretted any of that. I never had any resentments towards him because of that. It just made me grow up so fast that I feel like I missed out on a huge portion of my life. We’re just caught up with me in later years. So it wasn’t. It was not resuming towards him so much as it was towards my parents because they put me in this situation where they said oh you’re mature enough and you’re you’re strong enough and you’re smart enough to handle this. You know we wouldn’t give you the responsibility. We think you could handle it. But as a child at 12 years old it was like I was in the same house every day I felt trapped. You know what do I do. I can’t go anywhere I’m not allowed to sit on my front porch and even talk to the neighbors.

[00:28:12] You know I hear a kid go to the girls at the Keenum hall and have fun with them. I have nowhere to go. They’re very isolated you know they’re isolated. Yes. So then you know I’m just thinking you’re trying to you’re living this life which sounds pretty busy for a 12 year old. And at that same time you know being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses that means that you probably had other things you had to do too. So how did the burden of being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses or privileges they would see it. How did that impact you. You know growing up going to meetings and field service and knocking on doors studying all those things that you had to do. How did that fit into your life. What was your experience with that. Yeah. As a child I was a I was excited at first as as a young child to go out in the field service ministry. And it was fine. I thought you know when I was like them ages four five six I could read at the age of three so that was always a good selling point. My mom was taking me to the doors. I could read really well so have me reading scripture. These people would just be like oh she’s the most adorable little thing you know. I guess these little girls aren’t do great but if literature. So you know we would rehearse those things and I liked it. As I got older know obviously I think a lot of people feel this way even those who are still in the religion.

[00:30:07] They think they kind of you start looking for it to go out and vote 030. You know I became an unbaptized publisher and I started to you know give the little presentations that the sisters are allowed to give on the stage or that they used to be allowed to care. Not sure how that works anymore. I wanted to get baptized. I thought that that would fix everything. And at the age of twelve I was already being shy and to an extent in my congregation because the girls in my heart had said you know that I was too worldly and that now it’s not not like them. So I don’t really have a lot of friends. Anyway I was already isolated and I thought if I get baptized maybe it’ll it’ll make some these expectations easier and people will like me more. You know it’s a way of proving yourself exactly. So I started to study the questions and go over that. And in October of 1996 oddly I was baptized at a special assembly. How were you then. I had just turned 13. Go to 13 in September and I was baptized not so and now of course like I said before I was really good at reading and comprehending so of course some made it sound like I really knew what I was answering those questions. And you know when that’s when the elders talk to you about your commitment I really sounded like I was serious about it. Oh yeah we all did because we all we all knew what we needed to do what we needed to say. You know in order to make that happen. Exactly.

[00:32:15] And you know even if you didn’t know exactly what you needed to say there was somebody that was more than willing to coach you in to it as long as it meant you were assigned in your name on the dotted line. Mike you are by your name because you were baptized witness outright. Yeah. That they weren’t going to let you slide. It is kind of funny. Did they ever turn anyone away because they kind of do sometimes but eventually they always get everybody in. Yeah yeah they do. They do. So I got baptized in here and I started to pray here because I was homeschooled so at one my brother was in school and the bus would come to get him and then a sister from the Keenum Hall would come to pick me up and take me out and service them. So I would go out and service three to four days a week and so it gave me something to do. I wasn’t stuck in the house all day. And so that was it gave me something to do. However I feel like I probably in hindsight in retrospect used that more as like a social hour because I was just so desperate to have somebody to talk to. And so I didn’t really take it serious enough. And there was a brother in the hall at one point at we were at we always would break at McDonald’s and we were at McDonald’s and early in the day it was him his wife another sister and me in the car.

[00:33:53] And I had I was hungry really hungry and I was like What time is it you know could we go to McDonald’s yet. And I had said something a couple times about Hungary. And when we got to McDonnel as this father pulls me aside and says to me if you’re just going out until service of somebody or buy you a meal at McDonald’s you can’t go out with me anymore so don’t ask me or my wife to pick you up for service anymore like it was. It was pretty innocuous just like I mean I’m just I told him just to take me home at that point. And you know mom actually my mom was really upset that he would say that to me and she went to the brothers I don’t know whatever came of it honestly. I had to really put some thought into remembering this much of my childhood because I know some some PTSD. Jack it’s really cool. My memory is just I know I don’t have long memories. They’re very spotty. I remember circumstances like the atmosphere that I was in bed. It’s really hard for me to remember specific things so all the things we talk about then talk about that atmosphere what what was it like what was your feeling. You know just what were you feeling as a as a kid and all this. What was it like for you. I mean I was miserable like like I said my whole life was just one situation after another of me trying to find where I fit in. You’re trying to find my place. So that was a really miserable place to be. And at the time when I was when I had got baptized.

[00:35:43] I was not aware that I was suffering from a disorder that causes me to repressed memories from your childhood trauma. And so all of this is starting to come online at the same time and I’m sorry to have flashbacks of these things that happened to me when I was a child that I didn’t remember before that. So I’m just I’m I’m miserable but I don’t know how to cope I don’t know anything to do except to just keep going out until there is you. A study in my Bible and keep you know I’m at this point I really was legit. I really did want to be a spiritual person. Have you had a reason to want to be you know just like you open this talking about your mom and how she had these traumas and then there’s this religion comes full circle that comes back to her and she sees that as a way to maybe fix her problems. Well here you are as a kid with no tools. I mean what what 12 13 year old kid has the tools to over overcome and cope with all this stuff and then you think you’re going to get baptized and you know Jehovah’s Holy Spirit is going to rain down like a dove upon you and you could fix all your problems. I’m about do you know. Right. Right. Of course. And those are the things that they they tell you you know they tell you this stuff that’s part of the sales pitch to get you to take that step. So you know here you are.

[00:37:18] Now you know the lonely depressed little girl and you’ve got trauma coming back you know in these flashbacks and you had every reason to think that you know just doubling down on whatever you were doing quote spiritually in the organization was going to fix everything and you desperately probably needed that at that time. Yeah. And you know not to mention the Elderts any time that I would go to them or seek counseling. That’s what they told me to do. Surround yourself into that you know you need yet more hours talk to more people tried so Bible study read your Bible mosque and be more embodied in the appropriate ministry support. You know you do things like clean the keyboard to launch an offer to help older sisters at the whole year. You’re selfish and you’re not doing enough. You know so that was my issue. They made me feel like everything that happened to me was my fault you know and that I’m not good enough. So so why not heap that burden on a child that you know you have somebody who is clearly hurting already and then tell them you’re not good enough because you’re not regular in cleaning the Keenum hall or something stupid like that. You know it’s the last thing you needed at that point in your life I’m sure was a culture of an organisation that just beats people down yeah works. And you know some people I think that people well and people like you and I we have we have a resilience about this but also we work Farlane for their business like they wanted us to do. Yes. They can only beat you down for so long.

[00:39:12] And some of us just have to stand up and say I’m not going to take this anymore. And honestly I think my mom got gone. I know you got hurt. People like my mom who life had already beaten her down so far that it’s like that’s what she was used to. So when she came into this cult she was almost like a relief for her like she could breathe again because she had somebody telling her what to do she didn’t have to think for herself anymore. She didn’t have wonder what what was going to happen. She was told that if she were out on Jova and she prayed and she became spiritually fit that everything in her life would just come together and that you know she would that she doesn’t have to worry about those things anymore. Anything that happens in this lifetime doesn’t matter because as long as you’re faithful to Jehovah under every circumstance you’re going to go to paradise. So it doesn’t matter who does it doesn’t matter who abused you it doesn’t matter what happened in your past. Just paraded hopeful about it. Just stay faithful kids in paradise. It’s all going to be race. You know so I mean for her for her. That was enough she didn’t ask questions for me. It wasn’t. It was you know I had questions that couldn’t be answered from a very young age. And I tried to suppress those because of course after I got baptized that I had the obligation of doing what I was supposed to do as a baptized member of Jehovah’s Witnesses and then I had guilt because what the only people actually have in my life or my parents. I don’t have friends.

[00:40:49] I don’t have social activities I don’t have anyone else that I can turn to. My parents are the people that are even. No matter how abusive or how how horrible of an experience I may have had growing up they the only consistency I had. So you know I don’t want to disappoint them. I don’t want that guilt as being the black sheep of the family. But it is what it is now. But at the time you know and then one when I was when I was 13 almost 14 I started having these flashbacks. And I was in my body went into like shock that I was having seizures from from the trauma like I don’t I don’t know what exactly happened my mom took me to a neurologist. He says that you know I was filtering into puberty at the time and sometimes that puberty can cause you your your brain to remember things that you didn’t remember for a child. So it can cause you to lie it unleashes these things like all these warnings. So I started having seizures and I try to slip my mom and dad down one night. Tell them and. No I haven’t told you this before and now but I’m starting to remember things ma’am about your brother about my uncle. You know he he touched me when I was little and I was explaining to her specific instances of times when I was at my grandmother’s house or when I was at my uncle’s house spending the night with my cousins around the age of 4 or five. Where he would one by one come in to the bedroom and take us out.

[00:42:41] And then when one came back he would sometimes it would just be one that night sometimes it would be all of us but one by one. So I’m not gonna get into it like a lot of detail that I did with Obama did tell her specific things that happened and she sends me to my room. Taksin my dad calls me back down and says mind you wrote me when me say this my uncle or was in prison at the time that I’m telling my mom this I’m formalizing his own daughters and his stepdaughter. For a long time I didn’t know why he had gone to prison. Nobody would tell me because I was a kid and I didn’t need to know. They just said he did a bad thing and he had to go pay the consequences for his actions. Right. And these were the same two little girls that he molested were the same two little girls that you were spending the night with. Correct. Yes. Yeah. Got you. And so my mom tells me that she thinks I’m just lying that I just want it in June and that she’s going to take me to the elders. We’re going to talk about this and get some spiritual counseling. Littlefeather before you get to that I don’t mean to interrupt. Do you think you said that your mom had trauma in her past.

[00:44:09] Do you think that her brother could have been part of that trauma and that maybe she was just you know this was a way to she couldn’t accept it herself and she had to distance herself from it by any means possible even if that’s invalidating you. You know that’s a really really good question. I can’t give you a straight yes or no on that because I really don’t know that it’s very proper. I do know that my mother’s a child endured abuse. I’m not sure who it was. Family members I know but I’m always under the impression that it was older members of the family that they had been left with as children. And you know and that’s how the cycle gets past them. Exactly. And I just wondered if you are being spent that most of what my mom endured was like my older brothers were abused by a woman that my mom was a man that my mom was dating. And I don’t know the extent of that abuse either. However I do know that it really hurt my mom because she was just trying to do what was right. She was working two jobs and she had left my brothers with this man who she trusted who she loved she thought would not hurt her older children and come to find out he did hurt my brothers badly. And so my mom I don’t think she’s ever forgiven herself for that. So for me to come to her and say hey this happened I think she was just so it probably brought back trauma from her as well as how helpless she felt as a mother to my brothers when that happened. So for her to have to feel that helplessness again I feel like she failed her child. Stop think she could accept it. Like yeah I know that makes sense. Yeah.

[00:46:05] It didn’t make sense when I was a kid. Oh god no. But I was lying or just be told that I just wanted attention. Oh and you know we ask your uncle and he said he never did that. So right. Right. I mean he wouldn’t lie about oh this is what I was told. Right. Pretty much Kirby. You know I was so angry because he said it didn’t happen. And the elders you know the elders make me go through every curse detail of what happened. Like my mom couldn’t tell him I had to for them to just tell me that OK my cousins were there when it happened. But since they weren’t in the room with us he took us away. So since they weren’t in the room with us they didn’t see it with their own eyes. Happened to me. You know that’s not good enough. Really. Yeah. They weren’t witnesses. They were living in Pekin at dinner with their mother. So at this point John they were living with their mom and they weren’t baptized witnesses so they weren’t credible anyway you know. Right. They were Webley and so the brothers took me on reproofs they place you on reproof. Yes they did were lying for fun I guess because I was making this big story up you know. And it was private reproofs at the time which later turned it into public reports because I had been writing letters back and forth to a boy from the Georgetown congregation and our letters were a little more racy than they should happen. So then it was public proof shortly thereafter.

[00:47:48] So there’s a snowball just builds and rolls downhill and they just gets bigger and bigger. You know it’s from one right when am I led to the deaths no matter where I turn. I’m being rejected I’m being told that I’m not a good kid I’m being told that I’m not a good Jehovah’s Witness. I’m being told that I’m a liar that I want attention that I’m yes. That there’s something wrong with me. You know that there’s something wrong with me that what is happening to me is my fault. It has I. I’ve done something wrong. You either deserve the way I’ve been treated or or because I’m lying you know about it. That’s why that’s why I have all of this emotional pain and this and this is why I can’t get over this hump and be more spiritual because I’m not being truthful and then I’m not you know those kind Zoet everything is my OK and it be that you’re very hurt person it can’t be that there can’t be any modicum of compassion it has to be. You’re a piece of shit and you know you did it to yourself you know. Yeah. It’s so awful. It is. It is awful. And it throws me into a like a victim stance. You know what I mean from that point on from my only point. But even today still I have issues with like playing the victim. Does that make sense. Oh ha. Like I I I don’t even mean to.

[00:49:30] I don’t even realize I’m doing it sometimes if it hadn’t been for therapy and for that other progress that it has been it helped me heal from this. And so I don’t even know I’m doing it. It’s something you mean you mean you mean to tell me the programs outside of Jehovah’s Witnesses have helped you but Jehovah’s Witnesses didn’t you know if that is that dynamic Jehovah’s Witnesses act like their their religion or the Bible or whatever will cure all your ills. But in that funny how you know for most of us that managed to get out it’s the fact that we went to quote worldly you know through programs or to therapists or whatever. It’s those people that actually helped us. It’s not the truth the religion or you know the Bible itself even necessarily it’s these outside people that show basic human compassion and humanity that help us to get through these traumas and to get better. It’s not usually a byproduct of escaping into a religion. This whole our whole life this religion this these these principles of the Bible and their religion are supposed to be what saves us from whatever ails us and how it’s funny that they are so against us turning any worldly therapy or any any other sort of medium to help with our issues. Yes. Those are the people who helped us most borders. And I think a lot. I never felt well I’m not one iota of compassion from the elders that pretty much raised me. Never. Never once did I feel like they were truly on my side. You know horrible you know there’s supposed to be loving shepherds looking for lost sheep and caring.

[00:51:39] You know they always had these pictures in the magazines of a shepherd holding a little lamb or whatever. But you know in a caring way. But you know so often when people go to the elders in the congregation for for help for truly devastating problems I think it just gets back to what you said a minute ago and that is they pretty much just point a back at you and say it’s your fault. Yeah yeah. There is bad and might be separating the flock books deflect. Yeah it’s not it’s not just to make you feel like it’s a man. I don’t know. But I’ll tell you I think that I do think that on some level it takes a certain personality to climb the ladder of Jehovah’s Witnesses to even become an elder sometimes. I’m not I’m not indicting all elders as stone faced compassionate less monsters now but there are certainly a lot of that Jordy of them. There are a lot. You know I got into you as I got older. And then I could drive my life was a little bit easier I guess. And when I switched halls I ended up meeting a guy and I married him to be honest with you just to get out of my parents house to and can’t blame the congregation that he went to. There were some really nice people there you know. I mean it’s the organization that’s cricket it’s the it’s the organization. The rules and the policies that they set down an end. And I don’t think that all of these elders are. I don’t I don’t think they even know how really like screwed up they are.

[00:53:42] I mean I think you know just like what they’ve been brainwashed to do just like read it. They’re doing what they’ve been indoctrinated to do and they make and they’re being passed up like cause it’s a big responsibility to shepherd the flock and so you know you’re doing God’s will. You’re doing what God told you to do. You know and I guess there’s not much room for compassionate love when on the business end of that. And that’s what most of them look at it as just regulations. Yeah yeah and that’s like that. I know I listen to your podcast and you know that rank and file you know at. OK so first of all I’m I’m a kid and sick enough female. And third I’ve already been a reproof so there is like no room for compassion for somebody like me because I’m not any of those things that you need to be. You weren’t even an ounce of respect from an elder. So it is. I don’t know. As a kid it really made me feel so important. Yeah it’s got to be hard to have self respect. Well I know it was for me in such an environment where you’re so invalidated all the time. I respect for myself either I get it. Yeah. So then is the next step in your life then pretty much you know getting married to this person. And yeah a few years and in between there I still struggled with my identity with an making meetings and I was depressed. There was a point in time I developed an eating disorder. And I got really really skinny and we were on vacation.

[00:55:49] One year my family and I and my dad busted in on me in the bathroom when I was throwing up what we had eaten and so on. They put me in the hospital. So I was in a mental hospital here for her for a little while. And when I came out of there is when I decided OK I’m going to turn over a new leaf I’m really going to give it my all this time with that with that organization. And I’m not I’m not going to go dressed in black and shave my head and you know because these are things I’ve done. Like I would go to the Keenum Hall in black head to toe. I had cut my hair off my hair was really long I cut it all off I had color orange I had colored it black you know any sort of expression that I could get away with. I was doing it. So it sounds like you’re kind of trying to trying to find yourself or just have a little control over you her life you know. Yeah in that life where you’ve had so little control and been trapped by so many things just coloring your hair different. Hey it’s something you can control just like honestly the eating disorder those are usually about control. Yeah exactly. And you know also a part of that was when you know a lot of people are going to treat me like shit anyway I’m going to do what I wanted.

[00:57:12] I don’t have friends here know how anybody to impress you so I’m gonna come dressed in all black and wear black makeup and comb my hair in my head or do what I want because it’s not like anybody cares you know. You know if they care they would take time out to talk to me. So since since you’re gonna treat me like an outcast I’m gonna go ahead and be with you. And yeah I did have a lot to do with control. And the lack of control I had in my life and making any decisions for myself. So you know I try to get over that they put me on like all these psych meds and I’m worth 30 days. I was in this hospital in a glass room so that every time that are eight they would make me sit in them you know the floor for an hour after 8:00 to make sure that I wasn’t going to go out there I out. And I did that for like 30 days every single day. And I was on so much medicine that I could not. Like I literally could not see straight. I was seeing double because I was on so much mess and all I wanted to do was sleep. So I come home with these medications and I just feel like a zombie like I don’t remember a whole lot of that my life. So I start slowly weaning off of the medications and then going back to meetings and trying to find branch out and find a group of young individuals that I can get along with that I can’t fit in with. Which is where I met my first husband. And they were they were close they were. They were skaters. They listened to rock music.

[00:58:44] They got together on the weekends and had chaperoned parties where we all had fun and you know I mean it was like I actually started to feel like I applaud them because they didn’t judge me. But they were like those walk the line witnesses Hitler there’s a lot of absolutely everything that they could do without getting. Yeah. Right up to the line. Yeah exactly like toes dangling off the edge. Oh I was like these are my kind of people I could be a witness if I could do it like this. So you know that was nice to finally have a place right. Happy in the sky. You know you take an interest in me. We have talked a lot. And to be honest with you I really wasn’t in love with him. I was in love with the boy from my congregation that I had tried to date for a long time and it just didn’t work out because we were so like mentally screwed up from this indoctrination. We were both so crazy like you know we had no clue who we were relation at the time but am he you know he he ended up calling me three days before my wedding to this guy and my parents had already paid for everything you know for me you get married. They paid for the trip. I was marrying and he had proved himself that he cared about me unconditionally. No decisions on our relationship. And I just I’m used to it. How so. The guy called me in it was like the hardest thing I’ve ever had in the mood is saying. I’m kind of a scheduled myriads other guy. Sorry.

[01:00:42] And as a witness you know they view an engagement almost as though you are married. So you act like an engagement is a promise. And if you bring up an engagement you can get in trouble for that. So yeah. And especially if I were to break it off to go with this other kid. Yeah. There’s no perfect the whole and not me. And I’m really this point this is my last ditch effort. You know I’m going to I’m gonna do this. You know I’m not I’m not going to give up on this religion and I’m not going to give up because my mom and dad like I had been threatened with being disfellowshipped so many times excommunicated and so many times as a teenager because of my actions that they didn’t like so I’m scared to death that I’m going to get this fellowship and the only family that I have the only people that have ever been consistent in my life will have shown me. And so I’m just I’m doing anything I can at this point to stay on the good side because I don’t want to lose my mom and dad and my brother. Right. So I get married and I moved to Cincinnati and I’m married like pretty much falls apart before it ever starts. Regarding to some very immoral sayings we were drinking all of the time smoking weed and as he went he would drink he would be drunk all the time and he wasn’t like an abusive drunk or anything. Happy drunk.

[01:02:05] It was just he was sloppy and we argued a lot and we had no clue how to be a daughter how to be married or you know it was typical with this kids getting married. Yeah exactly. That’s one thing I did like every other witness. But we were also clueless at that point. Yeah. Well we had no we didn’t know how to be anything like I did not know how to be an adult. Okay I did. What what politics were. I don’t know. I never had to pay attention to how many taxes they were taken out of my paycheck or balancing a checkbook or paying bills or you know like I was never taught life skills. I was hopscotched off of that so I didn’t have any idea how to socially interact with people who weren’t jobs. Yeah cause you know the. As you mentioned before the marriages as Jehovah’s Witnesses almost on some level feel arranged and there’s such a lack of the ability to really get to know another person in there. You know chaperone courtship arrangement. Then you end up marrying somebody and finding out oh look you know he he is he can’t start drinking and he’s doing other things and and exact things you could have known other than for the arrangement. The Jehovah’s Witnesses Jews as far as dating goes exactly. Yes. So I still feel guilty about that because honestly he was not a bad person. He’s not a bad guy. We just weren’t right for each other. I did try very hard to make it work though once we moved. I really honestly.

[01:03:52] I can be honest in saying this now and I’m not saying it in like I’m not trying to say it in like a bragging way but I really just marry him to get out of my parents house and I and I thought that’s what you were supposed to do get you into a certain age. Three days after I turned 18. Yeah. Yeah but it hurt a lot. Yeah. And so I just we tried to make it work for a little while. But we both started seeing someone else and the only reason I didn’t get disfellowshipped because of our divorce is because we were both inactive at the time and because she had he had committed adultery. He had been with someone else and had admitted to it. And so I didn’t get disfellowshipped for that. And I’m already considered I’m hiding I’m ducking and dodging the others after this. Like I’m not even in mobile anymore so I don’t have to worry about facing the same people that were in my congregation. So I could go to new car she started new and they don’t even have to know about all this stuff right. Right. And I’m not thinking they’re gonna stay in my publisher’s God with all the private notice about you. So then they got the dirt on these others. They realized you know what we’re going to do. And since you been an active for a little while and you’re coming to us and we think you’re truly repentant for everything that’s happened we’re a lot let you start over like we’re not going to put on her proof. Now we want you to study with the sister here and we’re just going to treat you like a study and movie backup so you can’t answer any questions right away.

[01:05:34] But you know if you come to meetings consistently you can start answering questions again. And you know we’ll worry about all that as it comes. We’ll let you progress backup. So I thought this is it. This is my chance right. That was actually somewhat kind of them. Yeah it was but these were Aldred these were in Cincinnati Ohio got up and I had started smoking cigarettes at this point. And so I was not willing to give up smoking. I mean I tried but I just it’s a very very hard addiction to ultimate. And they thought I should just be over a period away you know oh my goodness. You just stopped smoking. So then I had called in to in a meeting with those owners a couple turns and they’re like if you can’t quit smoking get healthy. So I just stopped going again. Right. Like I run from the problem because that’s the best way for me in that time. Right. Those were the tools you had. Exactly. I don’t know how to work this out or anything so I just I stopped going again and I’m still making the memorial. You know my mom’s like oh no you’re not making other means but you have to make the memorial. So I I do it to make her happy here. And I met another guy and had my first son with this man. And you know me my picker was broken because this man was very emotionally abusive to me and controlling.

[01:07:09] And so it was very fitting for me to be with someone who was going to control every aspect of my life. And I went through our a string of bad decisions with him and I started drinking and using drugs after my son was born. I was using cocaine and ecstasy and pretty much anything else that was offered to me at the time. I would do it I mean that makes sense. Yeah. Well I didn’t want to have that. I was always looking for an escape. You know of course of course I was nothing nothing to this point has ever been dealt with. You know exactly and not only has it not been dealt with but up until this point in my life I’ve never felt my gobble armed anywhere. And that’s a deep emotional pain because as humans it’s in our nature that you want to be have that herd mentality and you want to fit somewhere I want to go somewhere where you feel safe. And I never have. So I didn’t I didn’t I didn’t delve into my addiction at that point but later on in my life I did develop a very honest debris addiction to drugs. I tried to fill that void with sperm men with getting that attention. You know that from a man to validate me I’m it would work for a little while. But then once reality set in and hit the newness where were off and he wasn’t in love with me anymore I would just drop him and go on somebody else. He was going to worship me for a little while. Yeah it’s really sad. A lot of people are immense Herpa that comes with all that too. Well there is. Yeah.

[01:09:05] Because for the first time I felt like I adored and respected him. You know what to an extent anyway even if it was just like a physical validation it was validation and I craved that. So you know things things progressed. My mom and dad didn’t really shun me. They knew I wasn’t doing the right thing but they were always you know trying to tell me my dad was not a bad times we necessarily think that he wrote something or met you which Mersch is it your mother’s right and you need to go back to the whore you know kind of. He he would like. Eventually he got to the point where he agreed with my man. And I guess he finally decided or they decided together that they did love each other and it was worth fighting through for their marriage and they got to a place where my dad wouldn’t go to the hall. But he didn’t oppose my mother got anymore. He would help my mom get my little brother ready or help her cook dinner or make sure that we were being quiet. My mom was doing her Bible study or whatever so he got to a point where he was more supportive. But by that point I was already far too far gone I guess. You know ordinary affect me that much that he and then I just thought it was hypocritical of him like how are you going to tell me to do this. You don’t do it. And you can tell and I don’t want to think you’re going make me go anyway. You know yeah yeah.

[01:10:24] Suddenly you think about those with your dad because they don’t know what her so then you know how did this. So you’re not you’re not disfellowshipped or anything you’re you’re just you know you’re living this life your sounds like your own addiction at this point. How did that you know how did that play out. As far as you know from there on because you know that you know honestly with all the trauma and not just you know that you know most people will see trauma as obviously you know what happened to you when you were a little kid from Europe your uncle but you know trauma has just been the name of the game throughout your life as you’re going through. You know this whole life as a witness and then you know now you’ve got I’m sure there are negative consequences and traumas as a result of the drugs and everything else. Honestly you’re probably very fortunate that you didn’t destroy yourself. That probably it speaks to you know your spirit. So how did how did that you know transform over time. Well like I said I went from just dabbling in different drugs and then I did quit for a little while I went to school to get my cosmetology license. I got my cosmetology license and was happy by a very short period of time. I’m getting married to my sons Dad would fix everything it just made it worse. So when I mean our society last year and one day I just packed my stuff while he was at work and I ran and felt really guilty because I lost my son for a period of time.

[01:12:15] But I had to do what I had to do it away from him. I’m desperate at that point to just get away from him. I could not under the abuse any longer I was really sick. I had developed a stomach disease a rare stomach condition called gastroparesis and I had had seven surgeries and the two year period was on pain medicine. Just one prescription after the other after the other. And so I’ll get a prescription every month from my doctor thinking that I meet it because I’m in pain not realizing that when I run out I’m not so sick because of my disease I’m sick because I’m going through withdraw because I’m now addicted to these opiates. I didn’t know what addiction was. My family never really had that dare talk with me. You know we never really talked about that kind of stuff because they never expected that of me being raised as a witness. That was more it was more women never expected me to dive into that. You know so we never had that talk about drugs and how they can ruin your life even if they had. I’m not sure what made a difference because I was just taking the medicine that the doctor prescribed me not not realizing that I’ve got this physical addiction that has grown inside of you. So I get cut off from the doctor because you know I’m trying to refill my medication too early like three months in a row and I start. And so I mean I’m as if all the trauma that happened when I was younger wasn’t enough I’m traumatizing myself over and over again every day with this day in and day with.

[01:13:49] You know I was I was homeless for a little while just on people’s couches and and then my addiction really took off when I was about twenty seven. And I had met another guy and had another son. And the crazy thing about this is one thing I’m really grateful for. Through all of this is that I never had any hard core addictions when I was pregnant with my kids. So I didn’t have to worry about my children being born addicted to drugs. I can imagine what what a woman goes through when she has that problem and I used to be really judgmental I think and how could you do drugs when you’re pregnant with your baby you don’t care about your baby. That’s not true. Addiction is a monster addiction will take everything from you and make you feel like it’s everybody else’s fault that your life is in shambles. You know it’s hard to take that power back but just miraculously somehow I ended up not being on any hard drugs or anything when I was pregnant with my kids so they were born healthy. They’re very smart sweet intelligent children. Unfortunately the cycle continued with them because you know through my addiction and through the trauma that I had never dealt with my children ended up going through a trauma. They ended up leaving a sick life because I was sick. And so it was a ripple effect. I wasn’t there for my children. Emotionally I would leave my kids for days at a time with my parents and go off to use drugs and be just laid up in abandoned house somewhere high for days.

[01:15:23] I have no clue what actually happened to me some of those days. I don’t know the people that I was around. I’m. You’re right. I’m really really really fortunate to have come through that as unscathed as I did. And it’s not it’s not a place when I was that 13 year old girl get that test that I ever imagined my wife would be at because I thought that their religion was going to fix all of these issues I was having. And I thought that these people would help me get over what I had experienced and make me a better person. And that’s just not the case. You know what. It’s not what happened. You heard that Jehovah has limitations. Yeah yeah exactly yeah. And you know a hen so throughout all of this progressing my addiction went from prescription pills and alcohol to heroin. And I had started you know just wasn’t using intravenous at first for the first couple of years but it developed did you anI.V. drug use situation an arm I’ll leave a lot of those details just because it’s it’s too much to get into. Really wish I had. OK sir. By this time I had left my midriffs CERN’s dad and I had a string of men who when I actually did commit myself to a man he would always cheat on me. He would always either read me for someone else or he would say was me. Because you know I I worked I cook I clean to Jahid kids. A lot of the guys in my life didn’t really have any responsibility that took on that responsibility because I wanted to fix someone.

[01:17:14] And I was so desperate for somebody to love me and to care about me that I was willing to go to any lengths to make that happen. So I would say no no no no you don’t have to go to work. I worked two jobs. No let me cook for you. Let me take care. Maybe let me do the housework thinking oh they’re going to have so much admiration and for me that they will be able to leave me because they never going to finally get a tree that is not so bad. Do you think that in any way. I guess I’m a little bit of a workaholic myself and I kind of attribute a lot of that to growing up a witness as a witness you are a people pleaser or you’re out of taught to be. And we always had so much to do as witnesses that there wasn’t really time to just sit down and just be you are always doing something you know the difference between a human being and a human doing. You know we were human doings we were always busy going here and going out in service or going to this meeting or studying this and then you from what you said also had this family element where you were taking care of your younger brother and you were helping your cousin in the homeschooling while trying to kind of do the homeschooling yourself and in addition to all these other witness activities so do you feel that just.

[01:18:47] Just struck me do you feel that you know some of these relationships not only was it just you know desperation for attention for love for validation but also kind of a bond and a need or something that has been developed in you to just keep doing something always. Well yeah I still have that issue. I’m verya.g so I’m always fidgeting. Like we’re talking right OK. My hands are man and I’m crossing and crossing my legs. Oh understand. It’s busy work. You get so reigned in during that busy work when you’re a part of the organization because they keep you doing that so that your mind is focused on what they want to be focused on. So we’re not missing on any doubt you may have or you’re not really able to look at the big picture because you’re so busy. Yeah. Some guests that definitely think that probably it has something to do with it. I’m not sure that I ever really respect the kinds. I’ve always been Saccharomyces you know I had always been stuck on trying to get attention from someone or validation or that loves or be you know that that you make a really good point there that I’m always it’s something that I just don’t know how to not do. I don’t know how to say it so I don’t you know I don’t know how to not do that busy work. I guess I have I have two speeds and that’s on and off. And either you know sometimes I can sit there and just kind of go in front of the TV. I like the TV honestly and personally I like to watch reruns of shows because I don’t have to pay attention to them.

[01:20:35] And I can just turn my brain off it’s pretty much the only way I can get otherwise I’m just constantly going. But you know even every human being needs to shut down at some point. So that’s how I do it. But I just it’s something that I’ve been realizing myself and you know just hearing your experience here just made me wonder if you thought that might play into it as well. Obviously there’s lots of things at play you know in our humanity. But it seems to have quite an impact on us. You know the whole experience of being a witness not to mention all of the other stuff that you had to deal with and face Oh yeah Devon definitely makes an impact. The whole my whole life was just kind of a recipe for disaster. To an extent as far as my drug use goes and how far down that I went where I hit bottom with that. Yes. So even though I found healthy ways now to keep myself busy and I find healthy ways to I guess decompress. It’s still something that I’ll know that I’ll ever be able to get rid of that you know that feeling. Because when you’re a witness when you’re in the truth quote of course you feel guilty if you’re not. If you have downtime because that means you could be spending either in battle field service. You know at the Keenum studying more in depth next week’s Watchtower Bible study or whatever you like so you’ll see if you take time to yourself. There is not. There is no allowance for you to know who you are. For you to enjoy you there’s no allowance for that.

[01:22:22] So I still feel that way now. As a mother as a wife and in a lot of times I’ll give this to you and say I don’t ever have time for me I don’t ever get slowed down. I don’t make time for me I don’t make time to sort out. So really I can’t you out right now. I have to make that time and I just don’t because I end up like something in the back of my mind says that I’m not allowed. Something tells me I’m not allowed. I recently listened to a podcast. There’s a book by a lady named Gretchen Rubin and the book is entitled The four tendencies and the book has to do. From what I could gather with with how humans respond to outside expectations and there were four different tendencies for categories it was like Upholder questioner rebel or a bludger. And when she was going through them the first thing I thought is oh I’m a questioner you know I’ve questioned a lot of things in my life that helped me to leave this organization behind to help me leave this cult that had me helps me to to challenge my my own perceptions on a lot of things and to find a healthier freer life. But as she was talking about them and I believe there was a test that you could take on her Web site. It was very apparent to me that actually at my core everyone has some of all these qualities but I am Anna Bligh Jr.

[01:23:59] I am very much a person that if I feel that there is an outside expectation of me to do something I will absolutely do it and go above and beyond the Indian thing going above and beyond and doing it obliges tends to make excellent people in service industries like I work in. Because your customers are going to love you you’re going to do anything for them. But obliges tend to end leaving themselves out of the equation and that can make a very bitter resentful. Yeah. Conversations with yourself can. It can. And I really think I think that on some level I was naturally wired that way. You know again we all have parts of these qualities but I wonder how much are our upbringing as witnesses. I almost wish I wish I could take some sort of a survey of it. I don’t know maybe I’ll put up a survey on the on the Web site or something I’m think about that but I just wonder how many other people who might be listening to this who are ex witnesses would would also kind of tick the box of being in a bludger and I think that that has to do with growing up in an organisation that was so authoritarian and that absolutely made us that way not in an organization that if you like you don’t you’re not allowed to have free thought or an it’s all so it’s not about you. It’s all about them. It’s all about them and it’s all about their name. You know they know they want that gold star by their name. Yep and you have to get it for Zakhilwal. Yeah and if you don’t then your hey you’re out buddy. You voted yes. Now. Yeah.

[01:26:05] We were never allows for it to be about us right. We didn’t birthdays we didn’t have celebrations where we were special. No we weren’t. We weren’t told that we were special again like we were good for nothing slaves of Jehovah just as it was. So why would we ever think that it was about anything other than them or quote unquote Jehovah. You know is it’s just waking up to this has been has been life changing and heart breaking and freeing all at the same time. It almost makes you or me personally. It almost makes me feel like how could I be so stupid. How could I be so good. You know what I mean to think that that even though even though I had questions about it my whole life I’ve had questions about the people. But my mom always told me you don’t serve the man you serve God you serve Jehovah. You do these things because of Jehovah and the organization of religion has good bones and that there’s people in the organization that are going to be good people because we’re all imperfect but it’s not up to us to serve man. We serve Jehovah. So my whole life I’ve gone through this every phase of my life where I’ve done really effed up things.

[01:27:28] And when I come back around when I come down I’ve got that guilt still in the back of my head about the truth that this is the truth and how how can I turn my back on it and I know what I need to do and I’ve been told my whole life that you know all this bad shit that’s happened to you has happening to you because you aren’t serving Jehovah and if you just serve Jehovah and get back into the congregation your life will be fine. Jahar would bless you if you were doing what you were supposed to do. But we’re not going to help you because you’re not doing the same. And it’s all your fault it’s your fault it’s your fault. That’s all there is to it. So my whole life I think about all these times that I finally thought I was going to break away from the religion. I did it in the wrong way. I did it through you know through promiscuity and through drug abuse and through running. You know I was scared you didn’t know who I was so I didn’t know how to break away and just beat me. So I think about all these times like how could I really have thought I never I never thought to look deeper. It was it wasn’t until I started listening when I connected with you on Facebook and started listening to your podcast and then I started listening to JT and Lady C. And this is a man who was in Bethel. Okay. This is a man who would have been like royalty to us in our congregation. And he’s not he’s not gashing he’s not bashing he’s not he’s not speaking out at all. Some sort of resentment. He’s not being vile about it. He’s speaking from his heart about this organization and why he just could not go on. You know I mean because it is crooked like he but he wasn’t. He’s not trying to convert anybody else. He just has a simple discussion just like you.

[01:29:24] You told your story if you didn’t want anybody into a category of everybody in this way this is bad and you need to leave right now. You told your story and you changed my perspective you knew open my eyes saw that I could question. So I know I’m the only one who was questioning his dignity. That it’s such an instantaneous thing that the way they make us feel alone because we can’t talk about it. Yes exactly. Yes. And so once I realized I wasn’t alone and actually did do some research for myself and that I could I could ask questions because I wasn’t the first one to ask those questions. And like apostates were a real thing. Many were certain death if you ever talk to an apostate or loaded up past they say oh yeah. So yeah it was really the turning point in my life just hanging in like the last year. Because when I got clean and sober in 2014 where do you think I went back to the Chelimo. Exactly. I went back to I started attending meetings. What did the brothers and I confessed all my sins. Our show. And I thought you know that brother was your brother. Now I have to say this brother he will always love him and I’ll always have respect for him because not once did he ever look at me as anything other than a person. He didn’t look at me as a bad stepsister. He looked at me as a drug addict he didn’t look at me as somebody who had children out of wedlock.

[01:31:01] He looked at me as somebody who’s been hombres you look at me as a person. And to this day this brother has still sent me text messages or if he sees me in public he won’t judge me. He refuses to work and that means so much to me because it gave me hope like a glimmer of hope. And I really want to go to him some time. And like text him the link to your podcast stands the link to like JT inlays just see what would happen because you could tell that he is an elder. He has a reputation. You are recording. However he is not going to let them take his humanity. Yeah. And so I have. I have mad respect for their elders to be honest. It’s that the people who don’t allow their humanity to be taken are often the people who leave. So yeah you know there’s still hope there is hope that I don’t want to be the one. I just really thought about hey here’s the information it’s right in front of you take your Revitt do what you want. I don’t want you. I don’t know. That’s right. It’s like I have a ambivalent about it. No I understand because it’s it’s it’s a you don’t want to destroy somebodies life that they have if they’re happy. Exactly yeah. I totally get that. You know and look you know my podcasts Ray Franz’s book Crisis of Conscience JT and Lady C John Cedar’s like all these. There is so much information out there. I mean I’m leaving out so many people who are out there that are you know producing different content.

[01:32:48] The Army just as the that army of apostate chick the other all these people who are putting things out there that you know in their own voice and you know some times you know one person’s voice. I remember when I when I first came out I didn’t like Lloyd Evans’s stuff. I found it be a survey it was it was too strong for me. I just wasn’t I wasn’t ready to handle the directness of some of that information I just couldn’t I couldn’t look at that on at the time and I only did something else. And there were other things. Yeah. Yeah. So you don’t want to leave you in a little more gently. Yeah yeah definitely it a little more. It was very hard to look at all this stuff it was terrifying and very difficult. And you know so many people who are listening I’m sure have been through that process. So this this elder this guy that you have this you know respect for. You know if if he’s looking he’ll find it and if he’s really open and if he’s not then he won’t. And you know it’s his life. Exactly. It’s his life. You know I just I’m just that’s why I figured out I have this issue like I really want to do that and at the same time I doubt it’s because that at one point in time if someone had tried to show me those things I wear them like most of the witnesses are and dismiss it and being really upset was something I had become too on my own.

[01:34:27] So I would have dug in further I would have said not only am I not going to listen to whatever this is. I’m going to double down on being a witness because now I’m scared. Yeah exactly. Yeah but seeing your podcast was the first thing I ever listened to that was Antine Jadavpur you know I had heard things before and had conversations all about you know even as an inact it’s non-member Jehovah’s Witnesses about’s you know oh well I’m not in the religion but I would never bring reproach upon Jehovah’s name. And this is what they really believe and you know it’s so interesting to witness to people even though in my heart I know I don’t believe it. But I feel like I’m afraid if that comes out of my mouth that that disbelief if those questions come out of my mouth. I’m on Mattingley like I’m going to be zapped off the earth. Then you know to this day to this day and you know I’ll say it I’m an atheist at this point. But to this day if I say something and you listen to my part here on the show and podcast you I do occasionally say things I’ll joke about something or whatever. Yeah it’s still pings in the back of my head. Oh you’re bringing reproach on Jehovah’s name. He’s going to kill you. And it’s like you know a lot of talk. We can’t rewire our selves now. Well it doesn’t go well you know I don’t know I’ve I’ve only been out two and a half years or less you know maybe eventually it will go away. That sounds nice as well.

[01:36:05] But it also kind of just points to how much like let let’s break this down. What were what was it that we were really being ruled by. It wasn’t this loving God it wasn’t out of love for neighbor any of that. It was fear it was fear that if there is this authority figure in the sky that if we don’t do everything just right is going to kill us. Yeah like we used to exist in there’s no after life. You’re just going and you’re going to be gone. You’re going to have no happiness. You’re going out. You have nothing right. You know what this is what I always talk about you know in the Bible it talks about the fear of God being a motivation. And they would always say that it’s not a fear. Help me see here. Oh yes yes. So you feel. Yeah. A healthy fear of displeasing him just like when you want to displease your parents right. Well I mean that nobody wants to displease their parents. You know everyone wants to respect and love their parents. But if just being you displeases them and they are going to kill you for it then that’s not healthy. Yeah well that’s that’s like being in an abusive relationship and being abused as a child. You. It’s not a healthy fear of displeasing because it’s a loving and forgiving God. If you just please weddings again in God in you’re imperfect and we know you’re imperfect then why would you have to be so out of step that he’s going to smite you once you cease to exist because you made a mistake. Right.

[01:37:42] You make human error. So yeah it never made sense to me. And I don’t think I’ve ever read that. And I’ll tell you in the last year I’ve had one times where I have had these deep like irrational thoughts in my head when this really is the truth. I am an apostate now and I’m speaking out against it and it turns out to be true. That’s right. I can’t get it out of my head. The sandstorm has wrought Judy and I just hope it’s a thing. I don’t think ever Rogel away. Maybe maybe it will years down the road. I hope that maybe actually help some people just kind of see the light so to speak and to help them if they want out. They know how to reach out like it maybe that will be therapeutic in a way. I hope this I hope that you might know it is therapeutic. I can 100 percent say that it’s very therapeutic and I think that it that honestly doing this podcast does help me too because we all need it. You know every one of us that left this still has those those things in the back of our head that ping us at times leftover indoctrination and it helps to be able to talk about it and to help others and things like that. So yeah in every Chanderpaul have said listen to them they’re telling a piece of my story. There’s always that common pebble. You know that we have. And so that in itself is therapeutic in healing for me. Every single time that I hear.

[01:39:25] That’s that’s why I kind of approached you had said like hey I want to be a part of this because every time that I hear those those things that we have in common it is just reaffirms that I’m not alone in that I’m not crazy and that I’m not a bad person and that I don’t have to be a victim anymore I can stand up for myself. Yeah that’s pretty cool and in fact you know what you’re doing right now is kind of standing up for yourself. You know it’s you know the consequence is that this the scariest for me. We’ve talked about that you know. So yeah. But you’re not officially shown at this point. No not officially. I’m sure and I’m not. It’s not on paper yet but I promise you it’ll get back around and I will be I’m sure. And if it does and I’ve come to terms with that I’ve come to peace with that and I respect my parents for who they are and what they choose to believe. It’s sad that they can not even respect me for who I am and what I choose to believe. But that’s just because they’re just as brainwashed as I was at one point. So my dad is now baptized and goes to meetings and is just as indoctrinated as my mother. And it’s like I think you were talking about this in more of your earlier podcasts about secondhand smoke effect. And in a continuing secondhand smoke effect where you know when you smoke around someone they may not be directly putting it in their lungs that secondhand smoke affects their actions like those people could get sick from being in that atmosphere.

[01:41:07] So it’s kind of an anathema to NATO is that that that atmosphere that was around my dad my dad you know his fame was not really close to him and my mom. And you know my mom’s family they were the ones that were around so he was around us atmosphere. Jehovah’s Witness religion he was around this culture he saw. So my mom goes through all of these things and you know Hando you know her life through the policies of the cult and how women rock. The one thing that really was the turning point for my dad was my mom. You know the whole world issue. Jehovah’s Witnesses refuse blood transfusions. So my mom has always been very ill. Pretty much my entire life. She’s had her problems she’s cancer she’s had some serious diseases she’s had surgery after surgery. And so my mom’s surgery a few years back and the doctors Kagin when they told him you know call your Priester or whoever to do last Friday because she’s bleeding out and she’s not going to make it down there. So my word for the first time ever in my life that means he hit his knees and he was like you know Jehovah we’re not on good terms but you saved my life. I will do. I would do whatever you want I promise you I would do whatever she wants me to do if you just let her live. I’ll be a Jehovah’s Witness. I’ll be a good person I’ll quit drinking completely out of watching horror movies.

[01:42:46] My dad is begging on his hands and knees his eyes out because I’ll tell you what my parents they’ve been put that together and they’ve come out the other side stronger. My parents are just as alert today as they were when they first met and my parents are a special breed. I don’t know how to explain man. One hand are very cold towards me. They weren’t like I’m gonna ask them for help you know because I know where I am sure I’m going to get which is. Well you were right. What a relief it shall even. Yes it’s a conditional love to an extent. And then there’s other times where they’re so confusing because they will call me to tell me Oh you’re that sick and he’s gonna have surgery or whatever. So I don’t really know how to take that again. Gynt fusion of mixed signals like Maharastra nothing but my dad was just and his heart you know. So she came through somehow she pulled through that surgery without any blood or blood products or anything and she was in the hospital for a few weeks and she was really weak. She made it and my dad kept his promise. No that’s what he said he’s going to do so that’s what he did. And he studied and he started going to meetings and he got baptized this last year. And you know maybe he should have became a doctor since that was the doctors that saved him saved her. Yeah right. Give us about that other. Yeah. The doctors performed the surgery that saved your mom. That’s who he is he really owes something to but.

[01:44:36] Now I understand and I understand the emotions of that and and you know death is something that’s bigger than us and that’s scary and you know you’re looking at losing somebody you love. And yeah you know I completely see how you know emotions get heightened and you would do anything you know to save that person. So he has followed you know. And it was I guess it was one of those points where my dad can he didn’t really have much known for him in the way of his Catholicism anyway. He hadn’t gone to the church and he didn’t do any of that stuff. So why not. You know I mean his character was one of those Weinert situations where one just bugged me my I closer together. We’ll have every that we can share sir. Hey it sounds like it got him to quit drinking too. So I mean that’s click click heavily drinky. Yeah. I doubt put in that mental hospital. That was a turning point as well. He quit heavily drinking then I guess maybe it was a little bit of a wakeup call for him that we and our dynamic changed that went to my dad. We don’t have a strained relationship as my mother. I do. But I still not I still feel like I’m unapproachable to me. Now even evenF.R. even if I wanted to approach them with something they’re just the way they would be possible. So it often ends up being pretty one sided because Jehovah’s Witnesses have this policy of shunning and then the only like a loophole in their shunning policy is that a person can be spoken to for quote necessary family business.

[01:46:29] Who determines what necessary family businesses. Is the witness so weak as the non witness you don’t get to determine that they do. And so it so it becomes this one sided thing where when they need you when they want something from you they will let you know but otherwise they’re probably not going to be there for you. And the sad thing is like my go know I can’t say that there will be a point in time where I’m not there for them if they do call me. Because as Emily and I refuse to be that way out west this cult or a reason because it might be that kind of person. So I refuse to be that person so whenever my family ever calls me and eat something I’m going to be there for farm because that’s what SAMEWAY supposedly thinks. Yeah that’s beautiful. Are there any questions that haven’t gotten fixed. Well. Well I know we talked about my addiction. We really talk about my recovery as much so when I did go back yeah I mean it’s in rehab. You know I needed some help. I needed a program that would help me learn how to live again. Being sober and drug free and that would help me learn how to some sort of therapeutic process. I could go through to leave all this crap behind so that I could be the person that I was meant to be. I guess you could say that you and I went brothers. Yet when I went to the brothers in the congregation they had no symptoms. You know they just had nothing for me. They treated me like scum of the earth.

[01:48:01] Most of them when I went back to the congregation. I was raised in. They would not even look at me. There were two people there even were remotely happy to see me. Then one of those people you may know. It’s like you could say it’s mama. I didn’t know I didn’t want to. Yeah your mom. Remember that. Nice to me. She really was she. She told me Don’t worry about what anybody else said she was just happy to see me. And then another sister the sister that actually studied with my mom brought her in. She was very nice to me. I went back several several times and was it was the same way every time. Nobody even looked at me. They would just walk past me like I wasn’t standing there so I’m trying to talk you not talk to my mom and said you know my mom I’m dry in here. I just feel so out of place. I feel like they’re never going to let go of my past. The money Nevine. So she says well you know they’re hurt you hurt them. You have to look at it like this. They put their trust in you that you wouldn’t bring reproach upon Jehovah’s name and you did and they were hurt so that you have to prove yourself to them before they’re gonna give you their attention. Because they gave you their attention in a way when you were younger and you traded. So now you have to prove yourself. That was her justification her reasoning behind why they treated me like that.

[01:49:32] The film’s loving you. I turned to you know Hafsat program on the bike an Alcoholics Anonymous program. And you know I was sponsored by a woman to help me get down to the root of my problems who helped me be armed with the facts about who I really am and helped me blossom into this. This journey of of who who do I want to be. Who am I. Who are you. Like I really don’t know. So let me know. I was in the middle of this identity crisis trying to stay clean and sober trying to regain everything I had lost my addiction and the first place. Like I said that I thought to go was back to the organization. And it was the first place I went and the first place that turned around and kicked me right out the door. Basically you know saying I’ve found no solace there I found no shelters here. There was no refuge for me in the organization. So all but you know I’m my one of the biggest problems I have especially with that congregation is the man who molested me as a child is a member of that creation still. No. Yeah he he is a member. He goes to that congregation. He may have moved from that congregation. Now I don’t know. I haven’t spoke to him at all. You know my family when he got out of prison they just pretend like everything should be fine like I should be run to be in a room with this man. We had a graduation party my brother. It was like a huge day.

[01:51:17] He graduated high school for someone with cerebral palsy and autism and his business more like a mental deficiency like a communication issue than it is a physical issue. He’s not in a wheelchair or anything. He just he has problems with comprehension. And he’s like he’s 31 now but he’s got the mentality of like a 15 year old. So for him to graduate high school was an amazing thing. So I’m with my mom. We are planning his Tony. I’ve got decorations. I’ve learned a place to have as part of the cake. I’ve made all these arrangements and I’m so excited to give Mother Brennan’s graduation party because we’re so proud of him. The night before the party my mom and dad very casually very like I guess I don’t know what the word is. Cavalier maybe they were kind of like oh by the way your uncle’s going to be their and US flipped. I lost my shirt. I was like I’ve thrown all my energy and time into this from our brother. And you know how I feel about him you know. Why would he do this and then why would you make it like this surprise. And it’s not the first or last time. Right. Well I guess that was kind of the first time that happened but it wasn’t the last time that it happened. They will have cookouts in the past few years. My parents want cookouts a family gatherings are my mom probably in some cases and you can’t cut my hair and I’ll cry and then it’s like I’m in the middle of cutting her hair.

[01:52:41] Oh your uncle’s on his way over a holiday weekend for a house dad here. We’re going to spend the night Gordon meeting with us. Right. How can best this man who robbed not only me but other girls in our family of our innocence who may have remorse that doesn’t show it as far as I can see he was still never admitted to this day that he hurt me. How is he not shy. And I know it’s completely it’s completely backwards. He’s supposed to be. He’s supposed to be accepted. Now come on Casey look. You. You should just forgive and forget. Okay. Now what you did that’s unforgivable and unforgettable. Well he did. I mean come on. You know when I look at Ben Mike he was just starting and he wasn’t baptized until later when he got out of prison. It was okay it was OK. It got a race all out in the books. I was baptized. So what I did was George havan on the organization I tarnished their name. He didn’t tarnish their name. They didn’t tarnish their name by protecting pedophiles and by punishing the victims. Yeah he tarnished you are you know me and that in turn tarnished their organization. I’m the one who needs to be shot. Right. You haven’t done anything in this whole and everything that you’ve explained so far. You have the only person that you have heard so far as you say you didn’t do anything to hurt anybody else. You took it out on yourself. Yes. And he actively hurt other people. And yet he.

[01:54:30] Oh he’s cool because of some stupid organizational technicality. It’s like nowhere. Will show me in the Bible where it says that once you’re baptized everything you do thereafter counts. But before you’re baptized none of that counts. Like where is that. That’s not there. Yeah. And the fact that they would protect him and that he’s in this congregation with what he did. Okay. And then Emily allows him to come around and I lost custody of my son came on little side. And he live with my brother and I am now you know I’ve been clean and sober a little over three and a half years. So I’m really proud of that. And I’m working so working towards regaining our thanks that I gained weight loss when I was on my addiction my kids be one of those things. Now my 8 year old he lived with my brother and my brother. Knowing how I felt about this and nobody ever protected me nobody ever stood up for me not out of my older brothers. My own father my mother nobody ever stood up for me and said What about how I feel you know and I’m not trying to be poor poor pitiful me now because it’s over with and I have to get a break and run for my own sanity I consider that you know I’ve had enough years of resentment over it. However when I tell my brother how I feel about that and other he has custody of what he’s allowing this person to be around my children. It drove me insane.

[01:56:03] It it’s it’s something that I know I will never be able to accept I’ll never accept that you were allowed this known around my children. You know no it’s not his job. I do in the bedroom. Momma Well let me ask you so I know there was. I just I you can choose to talk about this or not but there was one witness who tried to help you out with your kid right. Oh yes. So you know that brother that I was telling you about that. Never quite lost his humanity and was a really good guy. Right. Right. Okay so I mean I was incarcerated for a while. I was actually clean and sober at the time that I was incarcerated. But because of another technicality of a program I was and I was put in jail. And I had my son was only six weeks old my youngest had a 2 year old. He was only six weeks old pharyngeal and. And I go now and then. Was that right back in. Because I disagreed to go to this long rehab. They wanted me to go to one that was already clean and sober but I’m a felon so I’m kind of like I say I’m not sober to the Commonwealth. In a committed or an easy to hold. Then you have a choice I have to do what they say or go back to jail. Well for the first time in my life I held my integrity and said No I’m not doing this. I didn’t do anything wrong. I’m going to stand up for myself and I’m not going to go get shipped off four hours away from home.

[01:57:42] I want to go home. My kids well they put me back in jail. And this sister wrote me in jail. And she told me that since I had chosen a life of immorality and drugs and crime and couldn’t be a mother to manage children that I she just let her adopt my son out to someone in a congregation because there were people out there who were actually care about my son and give him a chance at a good life serving Jehovah. But he wasn’t even that nice about it. He was not. She was very dry about it. Like basically just he was the only sensible thing for me to do what I would be doing my son a disservice if I didn’t sign him I wrote to her about her adoption and that this lady she’s just she’s never been a nice person in general. Maybe somewhere down deep inside of her she is. But from you know she’s like a third generation or more. so she never had a chance to have a hip a humanity side to her. She’s just she’s a mind was drawn. She wasn’t even born with humanity as far as Asir most of the elders in people in the congregation don’t see you as anything more than the number on your publisher’s card. And that’s how she saw me but she saw a chance at redemption through masseurs. So she wanted to take Marsan from me in an that’s one time my mom did kind of stand up for me though. She was like absolutely not. If anybody’s going to have your son is going to be me.

[01:59:28] So I’ve no problem properly telling this woman to screw off. Any mindless stoners get to rest my to love Jehova. It’s got to be smart. Well obviously. So how much of that letter was about hoping you none of it absolutely none of it really. They don’t I’m just shocked that they would only want what they wanted. She came to visit me one time in the jail and that’s all she talked about was what were my plans because I lived in a trailer park that they owned at the time I lived in a house where my plane with my trailer because they really needed to move my stuff out get somebody else in there. I wasn’t going to be living there. And what did I decide to do about my son. And I just Hungar found up and turned my back and waited to be let out of the. So you were behind the glass. Yes I was ready to go back into the plaza and that the charge had been that there was no concern for me or is there anything they could do to help me or not even money redistributed. Yeah you know it was like all business now they were done with you they just wanted your kid out. Yeah they wanted my offspring. It is sad. It is there anything that you would like people that have never been witnesses to know don’t do it it’s a trap. No not look it’s not that all the people in the organization OK.

[02:01:14] There are some good people in that organization but as you said earlier the majority of the time those people are the ones who end up leaving because they wake up I I don’t think it’s just an organization of these evil vile wicked people. However I do believe that at the top of that pyramid are some evil and vile and selfish people who dole down these principles and these policies and the organization itself is just it’s a very crooked place. And I would not I would not raise my children to be raised like I was. Oh I could. I wouldn’t do you know just do your research. If there’s ever anything if you’ve ever thought about setting with a member of Jehovah’s Witnesses or being a Jehovah’s Witness. Just do your research what they have him tell you is everything that doesn’t. Is it proJ.W. is a lie that’s been handed down by apostates because they are a part of Satan in the world. But that’s that’s not the case. Do your research and you know it is it’s something you know you really want and you think you could be happy then by all means. But from my experience I’m really lucky to be alive today. Very much and I will never go back to that. I will never go back to making myself feel worthless or making myself feel like I’m not good enough. Because you know the religion tell people that I left because I’m a sinner and I’m immoral and I let the world insane take place of Jehovah an organization that’s out there I never had the love for Jehovah my heart. That’s not true. I have a very big heart. I’m a very loving person.

[02:03:22] I mean my husband gets mad at me sometimes because I go out of my way to help other people. And I would take away from myself still to help someone else. A part of that is probably my people pleasing the pirates because I have a lot of compassion and because I’ve been in a lot of dark places in my life. So to see someone else in a dark place where they need help. It just it hits me in the feels I can’t help it. You know I just I want to help in any way I can. And that’s a beautiful quality that you would think that witnesses would have. But they only help people conditionally. So exactly yeah yeah. You know my my husband was interested in going into this nondenominational Christian church. And my sons grandparents are a part of this church. And you know we we went there Father’s Day last year I went for him as a part of his apology I guess you know. And I have never felt more love from any religious organizations but this is not. It’s not like your normal church you know. It’s like your normal church policies where there’s there’s no white rank and file there. These people are just treated like a person. I was hit my vape my cigarette they drink here that I have tattoos. They don’t care that my hair was purple. They didn’t hear that you know they they just they were just like hey you were just happy you’re here. Tell us about yourself tell us about your rights. Is there anything you need. How can we help you.

[02:04:53] And yes Jimmy spoke very Yongs about how these worldly organizations are supposed to be so horrible and evil and how we are supposed to avoid them at all costs. But hell these people didn’t know me from anybody and they reach out a hand and a railing embraced me and more just from day one just nice down to earth people there is nothing fake about them. But this organization who raised me who saw me from the age of two grow up into a young lady into a grow to a young woman who who should have had some sort of emotional investment in me because they’ve known me since I was a baby you know how they have absolutely nothing to offer me. They have no they have no assistance they have no help. They have no not even a nice pair not even a house. They just pretend like at any minute just to get off of them you know it just it just shows like the parallel. It’s everything I needed to know for me to finally leave and just say I’m done. You know and there’s consequences and so be it. But I feel like if my story can help one person who is on that fence about whether or not they should meet who is having doubts who’s experienced anything like what an experience has had their sexual abuse or domestic abuse covered up that is an organization whose parents were told not to go to the police. It was made to feel like everything in her life was their fault. If I can help one person to overcome until less alone it’s worth the consequences because I’m going to walk in my truth today and I’m gonna be free and my true.

[02:06:39] And I don’t have to be afraid of them anymore. Her Yeah you know it’s it’s very wrong. Yeah. You think that riding your allegiance to this organization to this cult is going to give you some deep and personal spiritual connection that you’re going to rise up and feel like you have this conscious contact with Jehovah like he’s truly reaching his holy spirits out you know out there. You’re you’re being showered in it. In fact it’s quite the opposite it’s not until I left completely and finally said enough is enough that I felt any sort of spiritual freedom. And I just I would hate to think that there’s someone out who is scared and you know didn’t get that help because I didn’t speak out. You know what I mean not only understand. So then let me give you the chance to speak out again if you could say anything to your family and friends that shown you or I mean let’s face it you know there could be consequences even of this conversation. You know so let’s say you have a last chance to say something to these people what would you say. I would say I love you and I forgive you and no matter what you ever do I’m going to love you. And you know I’m really sorry that you can’t feel the same way about me my love. I refused to put conditions on my last. And I hope our hope is that if I really prayed like that that I would pray and petition that maybe they wake up and do their own research beautiful.

[02:08:21] Yeah cause I’ve had a beautiful opportunity to actually be my own person and you know I’m not sorry. I love them but I’m not sorry. I’m just not. I’m not going to apologize for being who I am. And that even if they don’t love me unconditionally I will always love them unconditionally. Well that is that is certainly a larger love than a love that only exists as long as you toe a certain line. So you know it’s beautiful when you get free and you can learn what love really is instead of what you and I we’re taught as kids. Is there anything you know other than Well there you go. Other than that love you know is there anything that you’ve learned since you left that that’s really made your life better. Just that I don’t I don’t have to be ashamed of who I am. I don’t have to hide I don’t have to live by that fear obligation and guilt anymore. And you know I mean I enjoy my life today. I enjoy celebrating my children’s birthdays and not having guilt because I had imperfections I can embrace those imperfections today and not criticize myself constantly and I’m just I’m a happy person. I’m very happily married. You know choose what the rest of my life. He supports me unconditionally. He loves me unconditionally. He loves my children unconditionally. I’ve never had that type of love before. Had I stuck in that organization and been put into another arrangement of marriage I probably would have never felt that. And so I’m grateful for the life I have today.

[02:10:15] I don’t I don’t regret one bit of it and honestly being the person that I am today and being grateful for that person everything that I went through in my life led up to me being here at this moment right now. So there’s no point in me saying I would have changed a thing. You know and you know if I’m accept no that makes total sense. Do you have any dreams anything that you’re wanting to do here in your free life. Well yes I do. Well my husband and I are on our own business and we are on a carpentry business. He does remodeling restoration. He likes to build furniture and use reclaimed the word. So we’re working on that and working on building Nadda so that it’s something he can be independent with. And also I am actually working with that non-denominational church right now on some outreach programs for we do a lot of work with people in our community. Some of the ladies they they actually take like all recycled plastic grocery bags and they make sleeping mats for homeless people. We cook we take food out and feed the homeless population as much as we can downtown. We collect blankets socks hats coats shoes get together things that are kind of necessities like hygiene packs for people. And you know I feel like that’s important for me to give back. It was something that I never would have done had our state a Jehovah’s Witness because they doubt you know they do not care about their community they don’t truly care about humanity. If your inner circle is here their babble great but even then you’re not going to have any type of outreach.

[02:12:06] If you’re if you’re working that minimum wage job because you never went to college or struggle to make ends meet because Jehovah’s Witnesses tell you that you don’t need to put your faith in anything of this world could you. Now the end is near for like 100 years now. And so you know you’re not going to go to them and say oh yeah can I go to the food pantry this month because we’re running a little short on fuel or is there any way that the organization can help us pay rent because otherwise we’re going to get evicted with our kids. You know those kind of things. So my my guess at this point is to open and run a halfway house for four families that are struggling with addiction and who are trying to rebuild their life to give them a halfway point. So once they get clean and sober and so gives them a place where they can come with their kids and they can get back on their feet in making and have resources with help finding a job and learn how to budget and manage their money so that they can save and eventually move out on their own and live with their own life. Clean and sober. If I hadn’t had people tell me how to do those things and show me and help me I wouldn’t be here today. So I want to get back in that aspect. And also I am proud of my five year plan as my husband’s business grows is to open a rescue for animals. Probably more for dogs than anything however any animal farm.

[02:13:38] I’m not to make a rehabilitation center for animals you have either been tossed to the side or put in a kill shelter. Those are my two passions right. So helping the West fortunate I suppose because I was that less fortunate. And someone stopped to help me and I feel like it’s the least I can do to give back. And and candid I guess put my own good karma out there in the world for those who reached out to me and helped me in and I found a real passion in a real naks were really like helping people. And I’m really that I it. So I’m not beautiful. Yeah it helps me heal. It helped. It helped me heal a lot to her to get out of myself. Like I said get out of that victim’s stance and stand up and say I don’t have to be a victim anymore I can help other people. And I can and look at me I’m leading a better life. You know I’m not going to let that warming anyone’s. This is pretty cool too. To see that you know out of all of this you know all the trauma of all the drama all the everything you know that you’ve come out of it and you know as this strong woman who can live her own life you have your own family. You’re wanting that you are not only wanting to help others but you’re able to help others now and that you’ve taken your life back. I mean that’s that’s what’s leaving any of these cults.

[02:15:17] You know unfortunately there’s they’re shunning that comes along with it but it’s not just about the shunning there’s so much there’s so much more that that that we get on the outside and away from all that toxicity. And know now you have a chance to to make your life what you want it to. You know instead of looking forward to some promised paradise in the future that she’s delaying you know you get to have those things now and that’s awesome. I mean it’s like well here’s you know it’s yeah. You know since I’ve reached out like a whole family. People have been shown who they treat me like family. They treat me like better than any person in their religion everyday. And it’s so nice to have that network of support. And you know like I know we touched on this already but it’s not as scary to be Sharon when you find out that you can take your life back and maybe you can reach out and have that individuality. It’s not a state anymore. It is when you realize you don’t have to be alone to them to exist. In fact you’re not doing anything about existing in that position. When you come to the realization that you can have ontogeny and that you can kind of when you take your power that it’s not a scary anymore to be shown. It’s really not because there is a whole other life out there. People who are a hundred times more compassionate loving and caring them than the people in your organization ever were turned out as a blessing in disguise as being shown in mine. I agree I agree. There’s a few things in life are all good or all bad. You know being shunned by your family missing those people that is bad and that does hurt.

[02:17:19] But there’s I wouldn’t trade the benefits on the other side for that ever. So yeah exactly. I totally agree. As always I want to thank Kacey for being brave enough to speak her truth. It’s not easy to do so especially when that truth could cause problems for yourself. But in the end that’s what Jehovah’s Witnesses taught us to do right. Don’t be mad because we’re taking a stand for what we see is true. You taught us to do that. So good for Kacey for doing so if you’d like to leave a note of encouragement for Kacey. You can go to shunnedpodcast.com and you’ll see her episode at the top of the episodes page. Please do so for all the brave people that face their fears and tell their stories. We were all taught that if we were to go away we should at least do so quietly by the cult. So you know it is kind of reminiscent of what any abuser would tell their victims. You know you can go away but shut up. Well one way to speak up is to show support for the guests here. Another way you can show support is to leave us a good review on iTunes. It helps give legitimacy to the show and helps us rise up in the rankings so that other people can find us to of course. This show does cost money to produce and you’ll notice that the transcriptions are out now for each new episode due to the mazing donors that give as little as a dollar a month to the show through Patreon.

[02:18:50] Our numbers of listeners continue to grow and having those transcripts helps us to get traffic to the site and then traffic in turn turns to new listeners. So if you’d like to help financially you can do so at patreon.com/shunned. In fact this month I have two new patrons to thank. I’d like to give a thank to someone called Covert Fade and also to Zachary and their families for signing up again. Every dollar helps. Putting the money back into the podcast and the more that there is the more I can do speaking of Covert fade. Some of you may know him on Twitter. That’s where I found him as well. He’s been kind to the shunned podcast himself and he started his own podcast calledJ.W. forward cast again that’s JW forwardcast. One word you might want to check that out. Pretty cool. Speaking of Twitter some of you that follow this podcast actually follow it on Twitter and Instagram well for all this time. My wife Jenny has been making most of the initial post and then I’ve joined in at times when needed or private messages with friends and things like that. Well now she is taking over all that. So if you go on to Instagram or Twitter that’s my wife Jenny and I’m really happy to have you know somebody that supports me in all this. It means a lot. And you can support her as well by stopping by and saying Hatsu you on those platforms. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram as shunnedpodcast one word.

[02:20:33] You can also find my new VIDcasts on YouTube under the same name shunnedpodcast. Again one word just put out two new episodes of that in July 1 about comparison and one about how the cult stole our problems. In fact that the latter one had an article in it from the great joho. So shout out to Joho who is an online friend of mine and who wrote that article. So subscribe there and you’ll get new videos as I produce them. If you want to hear my personal story you can find it by listening to the podcast called This JW Life. Also found thisjwlife.com if you want links to anything mentioned here you can find all of that on the show notes you can find the show notes either by going to shunnedpodcast.com and going to the post for each episode or you can probably just on whatever podcast your app you’re using. You can just look at the description and that should have the notes. You probably noticed that we have a new theme song. Day one of our Instagram friends gave us a song to use called no hell yet so no hell yet is the song and her name on soundcloud is fair voyeur. She has other songs as well that you can listen to so I’ll be sure to link it the show notes. Is this the song that she gave us. And you can listen to more of her music there as well. So thank you so much to her for sharing that all right.

[02:22:01] So this is where I usually tell you something about the next episode instead I’m going to tell you that you’re about to get a lot of new episodes. For the next couple months I’m going to be doing some extras. I have an episode coming out in mid August at some point from a former witness that has a book coming out and I have a regular episode coming out then afterword at the beginning of September as per usual with another former witness. I then have a special interview that I’m doing with someone that was formerly of the Amish faith that will come out in mid September ahead of a big Amish conference. And right after that at the beginning of October we’ll have another regularly scheduled episode coming out by another ex witness so that a one a month you’re about to get five podcast episodes in short order for some special circumstances and then we’re going to get back into the regular swing of things. So watch out for the new episodes. If you’re not subscribed go ahead and do so so that you get them automatically. And as we end them all go into the world and love others do no harm and go be happy.