Episode Sixteen – Sydney is shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses

Sydney is shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:41] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we expose the religions that you shunning as a tool to control people. Today I have an interview that I did with Sydney at the end of the interview I left in a part where I invite her to a local upon the first. And I actually got to meet Sydney for the first time at the Midwest upon the first near Indianapolis at the beginning of August so it was really cool to get to meet somebody before I even got to release their episode. And she got to meet a number of other ex Jehovah’s witnesses at this event. So I’ve been able to meet her in person and through this interview. And now you have a chance to meet her as well. Be sure to stick around after the interview. I have something new and I think it’s pretty cool that I’m going to announce that I think alike.

[00:01:27] So let’s go ahead and meet Sydney I am Sydney. Twenty eight. I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I am shunned all right.

[00:01:39] So then how was it that you came to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the first place.

[00:01:46] Well I would say technically I was born into it because my father’s parents were Jehovah’s Witnesses and he was a was witness but my mother her my dad dated when they were real young and they got married really young and even though she grew up in a strong Christian background she ended up converting to being a Jehovah’s Witness when they were married. And the funny thing about it is my mom was baptized and my dad wasn’t baptized but my dad’s dad was an elder and he married them. I don’t know if he was an elder. Yeah. I don’t know if he was an elder at the time that he married them but they got married pretty young I think my mom was like 17 maybe. And then they had me when she was 20. So she was a witness for a few years before they had me and he still wasn’t baptized. But yeah I would say that I was I was pretty much born into it even though my dad wasn’t excuse me he wasn’t super regular obviously but my mom was and then when she got disfellowshipped I was like 3 or 4 when they got divorced.

[00:03:08] So from that point on it was a split between a Jehovah’s Witness household and a Christian household.

[00:03:16] Gotcha. So your mom was disfellowshipped. Do you know you said you had a split between a Christian and a Jehovah’s Witness household. So I’m assuming that your mom stayed with the Jehovah’s Witness religion.

[00:03:33] No it was actually my dad that stayed because like I said his whole family was he has eight brothers and sisters and they’re all I mean they’re not all like baptized but they were all raised that way. So my dad’s side of the family they’re all still Jehovah’s Witnesses. My mom actually she when she got disfellowshipped. She never really whipped back or never really tried. I’m sure she got remarried Oakhurst each year. Then my step dad was not a Dover’s witness at all. And I think she had a really hard time with how she was disfellowshipped it really put a bad taste in their mouth because this is just like hearsay within my family. You know people will admit to things or won’t admit to things but apparently my dad had cheated on my mom with my aunt her sister and then because he wasn’t baptized he didn’t necessarily get in trouble for it.

[00:04:37] And the elders kept encouraging my mom to work it out with him and she was obviously not wanting to do that you know or I mean she tried for a little bit but then she ended up wanting to be just free of it. And I think that’s why her first relationship outside of my dad was really rushed. You know rationally have anywhere to go.

[00:05:05] Sure she can have a stranger cell from the family you know and this guy that she ended up marrying after my dad was like her biggest support I guess because he was he was friends with both my mom and my dad and it’s the whole it’s the whole thing.

[00:05:23] But anyway she she didn’t like the fact that he didn’t get in trouble and then she got disfellowshipped because of you know I’m divorcing my dad and they didn’t even like have a formal meeting for her. They just disfellowshipped her over the phone. Well they didn’t even give her the time of day.

[00:05:45] I thought really supposed to be given a chance to prove your repentance.

[00:05:50] Yeah I know. But I think because she moved in with another man they were just like oh well she’s just not even worth you know investigating what happened and she’s the one who’s baptized suffusing to be the one who was going to be punished for it.

[00:06:04] Anything without that magical baptism if you can avoid that you can skate on a lot of things. But if you are and you get baptized you’ll get in trouble for all kinds of things that the person who doesn’t get baptized can seem to skate on. Even though I mean like you said your dad was around the organization much longer than she was.

[00:06:25] Oh for sure for sure. And you know to what’s super sad you know that you say that as far as you get baptized in then it’s like you know the whole world is split on your shoulders and all this responsibility in my step mom.

[00:06:40] In time we get baptized together.

[00:06:43] And to this day I mean now we’re we’re we’re definitely not talking we’re not we don’t have really a relationship anymore but for a long time after I had left and was disfellowshipped she would just say to me and me and I just wish you hadn’t got baptized things would be so much easier I could see you would not feel this way.

[00:07:03] And I’m thinking from a Christian standpoint I think well this is one of the most horrible things you could say to a person like I wish you hadn’t dedicated your life to Jesus and made it possible to be with him after death because I want to talk to you right. So selfishly even if you’re whatever like I’m not anything anymore I’m not Christian I’m not I’m not anything I don’t go to a church and you know I don’t even know what I believe anymore just because I was so like messed up that way. But I was so sad that she would always say that because it’s like that is such a cop out for you because you have a relationship with my sister and with my brother because they are not baptized. They don’t go but yet they smoke weed and they do all these things that I don’t even do. And yet I’m being punished because I don’t want to be a witness anymore and whatever. I just think the whole thing’s messed up.

[00:08:01] Oh no it absolutely is messed up in every way. Just like what you said there about you know the way she she treated your baptism and said that she almost wish you had been baptized. That’s an interesting way of looking at have had looked at it from that angle before.

[00:08:19] So you know when you were a Kurd obviously now like you said you were you were kind of living between this Jehovah’s Witness household in this you know kind of more just christian household. How did that impact you as a kid.

[00:08:42] As far as you know the world view that you had because you were kind of torn between the two.

[00:08:50] Yeah. It was not easy. I mean I know there’s a lot of people who you know they’re forced to do it and they don’t really have another choice. So I felt that I was blessed to have an outlet through my mom in her family. When it came to that as a child. But my mom suffered from a lot of issues obviously after leaving now and going through the trauma that she did. And as a kid being with her was hard too because she suffered from a lot of mental issues. I mean she wasn’t like crazy or anything but she just was a very impulsive person. And she worked a lot of jobs because she was like a single mom. And because of like her strong Christian background she felt the need to marry a man instead of just dating them you know. She felt like she was sleeping with another person. That it was you know she wasn’t going to hell for it. So she would marry these men she would date instead of dating them. And also there were a lot of turmoil with my mom and saw the world go be babysat by like mom to have my answer my grandmother. And so I guess that I I was really close to all of them and they were kind of a reprieve for me but at the same time there were a lot of good qualities about my dad my step mom when I would go there because they weren’t really regular when I was a kid we would go on a Sunday is that I would be with them cause they had every other weekend custody type of arrangement even like I would go on Sunday is with me. And it was fine other than like I would get spanked a lot. I’m taken back to the bathroom a lot because I didn’t really know how to sit still in Oleg differentness Sunday school or just not going to church at all you know.

[00:10:57] Yeah you’re expecting a small crowd to sit for two hours in a boring environment and not move.

[00:11:05] But before long to expect from a kid.

[00:11:07] Well I think too I did. There were other children around my age at the Keenum hall that we went to but I didn’t I didn’t really click with one because I came from. Also on my mother’s side of the family who are very Christian they’re very mean they go to church. And my one aunt was like really big in her church on the other and she doesn’t necessarily go to church but she’s a very strong believer in so there would always be teaching me about God and how you should be and how you should treat other people. And you know and I thought while this is cawkers I see that they are doing that and they’re saying that and I will go to my dads and they will go to a Kingdom Hall and they will be like well we need to do this this this and that. And then like you know a week later when we didn’t go to the meeting they does do whatever they want and whenever they wanted list you know like excuses that the witnesses you know they would use teaching tools at times that they wanted to teach you. But then they never did it themselves kind of thing.

[00:12:13] No I mean that continued on into my teenage years so that’s interesting because that’s that’s the opposite of what as a young witness were taught. I remember being taught you know that essentially we as witnesses we talk the talk AND walk the walk.

[00:12:32] All right.

[00:12:33] But you know these other Christian religions they were just these things that you know these people put on on Sunday and then they took off as soon as they left church and they just went and did whatever they wanted and then they came back Sunday and put that personality back on and were certainly you know their church personality.

[00:12:51] But you know as this podcast is shown through a lot of the stories when you start getting into who what’s behind the scenes a lot of what was taught at the Keenum Hall in a lot of what the brothers and sisters professed to believe is not what they acted out in their home life and so it is very different. So what was your childhood like at home. I guess from the witness perspective what was it like when you were at that side of the family.

[00:13:28] Well you know it’s funny it’s my step mom. You know as she would I guess say this to me a lot as a kid but as an adult she has mentioned it more than a handful of times she would say you know I always felt bad for you because you just seem like a very depressed and sad kid. And I would say like I would think top editors say anything really because I don’t really know what to say to that. Because in my mind I was thinking I was a happy kid like you know I think the most depressing part of my childhood.

[00:14:04] You know I do want to hurt their feelings and saying theirs but I felt like maybe I was sad because I was with them you know I fell more myself in happy when I was with my mom’s family than I was with them and then I think that you know because this is a young kid like I said we only went once in a while.

[00:14:30] My step mom was not baptized. Even though she was like an avid Jehovah’s Witness and all her family were Jehovah’s Witness like her mom and her sisters and stuff like that so. Things didn’t really pick up in to being role serious until I was about 13. And before that I was able to go to school and have school friends and have school friends come over and play in sports and do all sorts of stuff because like I said it was legal once in a while thing. And then when I was 13 18. Well go back a couple of years and when I was 10 I hit my parents my step mom and my dad had my little brother and then they can use that as a manipulative tool to try and get me to want to live with them.

[00:15:23] So when I was 12.

[00:15:25] The custody arrangement changed between my parents and my mom signed papers before she really read excuse me read them.

[00:15:35] And mind you my dad does. There’s a lot of good qualities about my dad but my dad is a bully. And I think just the trauma that my mom has had in the past with him and his intense severe hatred for my mother. He bullied her in to signing all custody to him and my mom I don’t think really realized what she was signing. And so I only visited her like every other weekend and now I’m living with my dad. And they had full control over.

[00:16:12] Everything I did.

[00:16:14] And. You know I think that they really start there. I mean that Mester up to you and she really know what to do after that cause you know she only had me and she was in at the time. Abusive relationship with a man that I don’t remember if he ever laid a hand on her but he was extremely verbally mentally abusive been like controlled all the money and everything. So my mom was like in a in a really bad place.

[00:16:47] So we both got to be hard for you to you know being so young you suddenly not only has the chain of custody changed and that now you’re with your dad wore but also you’re in this totally different environment more your life had to change a lot.

[00:17:13] Well

[00:17:14] yeah for sure. Because to you know my dad he’s a contractor so he works all the time. My step mom was a nurse she wasn’tR.N. so she worked all the time and we ran a horse farm. For me it was like for my sister to especially because she’s seven years older than me. She’s my stepsister but you know we had a lot of horse chores. We had a lot of house chores we had a lot of things we had to do because both our parents worked full time. My dad was like 80 hours a week maybe and I said mom you know she would have a lot of overtime and on call and also my sister and I it was like clean the house make the food do the barn chores you know you need to get good grades in school in harm’s way to a lot of pressure on us as kids to do it. We had a lot of work we had to do. And I didn’t have to do that at my mom’s. Yeah I had to do homework and stuff. But you know we lived in a small house and there really wasn’t much to clean then. She liked to sit down and play games with me and he and all board games and dice games and we just we just spent time together so.

[00:18:30] Like you got a job.

[00:18:32] It was actually when I was a teenager I got upset because I don’t like horses I don’t like riding horses that really it’s had me years and I’m like I’m doing all these chores like yoga. Give me some sort of compensation for doing these tours like I know I’m your kid but I want nothing to do with this. And so I convince them to pay me eight dollars an hour to do it so.

[00:18:58] But sounds like home home was was pretty you know busy. So yeah. So I mean it’s it’s kind of no wonder you didn’t go to meetings super regularly and such because. How would you find time.

[00:19:16] Yeah it’s definitely the biggest part of it. And I think Penny scares me.

[00:19:20] My step mom she I think she used that as an excuse like I’m tired I’m not gonna let somebody bully me into going to a meeting when I’ve worked this many hours in a week like you know I think she felt like that’s my religion don’t make me feel bad for not going it’s not like I’m a non-believer. I just worked really hard this week. So mind your own business kind of thing you know. And then when I was 13 it was only obviously a year after lume with my dad my mom kind of had a total mental breakdown. At one point in Hurn I got to a really big fight.

[00:19:58] And I stopped going over and seeing her on my own. Because I couldn’t deal with that with her.

[00:20:07] And then that was the pushing point where my step mom was like you need to study with somebody I think you need something in your life you can’t just you know not have is.

[00:20:19] I think you will. You know it’ll make you happy. It’ll get you all you know out of this depression and it all gets you whatever. Besides the study here’s here.

[00:20:30] You know what you need. You need an escape. You need to escape into this thing here and forget your problems.

[00:20:37] Exactly which is what it ends up being for a lot of people.

[00:20:41] What I think too because my mom was disfellowshipped and really didn’t have a whole lot of interest at the time of being a Jehovah’s Witness anymore. It was a lot easier for them really.

[00:20:53] But look it now you’re a Jehovah’s Witness and your mom is disfellowshipped you can’t talk to her because she’s disfellowshipped.

[00:21:00] So now you know it was I think that was a word I didn’t even think about that. Pretty manipulative.

[00:21:07] And then my mom being who she is she is she wants to be Christian. She struggles a lot with some religion because she desperately wants to be in a relationship with God and have all of that but because of how messed up she became after being a Jehovah’s Witness. It’s been I mean she’s in her late forties and it’s still really hard for her. She says she still doesn’t really have a place she feels like she can call home when it comes to a religion. So for her she was. She was I think glad that I was studying to be a witness because she’s like oh what if it is the truth. Right. There’s still that in the back of your mind if you haven’t gotten to that point where you know it’s not you know. So she’s like what if it is I’m I’m glad my daughter studying and maybe I should try to go back to the Kingdom Hall and get reinstated and we can do it together. You know she immediately was like well we can do this together we can you can be baptized and I can be reinstated and then really really close. You know my martyrs.

[00:22:15] Yeah. Oh yeah yeah.

[00:22:19] So I mean it was kind of come in from both sides but in the end my mom was just like she just tried to be like OK well that’s how you feel that’s how you feel. I’m just gonna let you do your own thing and hopefully one day we can reconcile something you know.

[00:22:39] So the reality show IMO emotion in school. Did you have to change a lot. You know a lot of witness kids have trouble in school. You know it’s hard to not stand for the flag salute not Duni the holidays and such. You came originally from I guess you know the more dominant Christian family because you’re staying with your mom or wants that changed over. Did you have to go back to school with a new outlook on Thoon and really start changing.

[00:23:16] Oh my goodness yes. Because that was so hard for me too because you know I had one really good friend because I’d switch schools when I moved in with my dad.

[00:23:26] So I switched schools to the school that I went to until I graduated. And I met a girl and and I became really good friends. And to this day she’s my best friend still. And so when I moved in with my dad and I couldn’t celebrate birthdays anymore. I couldn’t really do anything like that stuff that they do at school. I didn’t necessarily. I guess protest in the not saluting the flag and stuff until I was studying at the age of 14. But before that like I would lie to my parents and be like oh yeah you know Rachel’s just having a party we’re just getting together for the volleyball team you know secretly it was her birthday party when they found out about that and I was so grounded. So it was a birthday party and it wasn’t a volleyball party rise. So yeah I I couldn’t you know I couldn’t do any of that stuff anymore. And then when I started studying it was just like well you know I’m not even gonna stand let alone salute an arm. It really didn’t feel super awkward until we had a veterans assembly where war veterans came in and you know they were doing a flag ceremony and I was sitting there and everybody was like really looking at me like how can you disrespect these men up on stage like that. I definitely feel really awkward in that situation. But I still sat there because this was what to do.

[00:25:03] So yeah that off really puts you in a bad situation and then you know having to make that change as a kid. It’s just really tough to be pulled in so many directions. What about at the at the Keenum Hall. How were you. How were you received when you you know we’re back with your with your dad. They kind of see that maybe as an opportunity to seize upon you a little bit.

[00:25:38] See that’s weird cause it totally didn’t happen like that. My dad doesn’t go to the Kingdom Hall. I mean now I think he goes more so because of a because of current circumstances. But even then he would only go to the memorial.

[00:25:56] Oh he he never went to the Kingdom Hall. But my step mom would go you know occasionally to the meetings and she’s like I think you need to study. So what happened was there’s two kingdom halls there’s one that was only 20 minutes away 15 20 minutes away from where we lived. And then there was another one that was 45 minutes away from where we live and we live in a really rural area. So it’s like you kind of. There’s not a lot of kingdom halls to choose from.

[00:26:24] And at that time they weren’t necessarily really picky about which one you go to just because there wasn’t a lot of people excuse me at the halls.

[00:26:32] So what happened was the one where we went to when I was a kid that was only a couple minute you know 15 minutes away is that moment like going there because the women always looked at her and judge Durran you know she felt like if her shirt was a little bit too low she got like rude glances at my step mom is very much like you don’t like me then keep it to yourself or like don’t look at me that way.

[00:26:54] She’s very much like I don’t know she didn’t like that kind of judgment.

[00:26:59] And so we started going to this other kingdom hall and that’s the one that my dad’s sister went to. So here’s my aunt found a girl who at the time I think with like maybe three or four years older than me and so I was like 14 to like 18 or 19 and very sweet girl I really clicked with her. But she went to this kind of hall that was far away so that became her new hall. We didn’t know anybody there and we really liked it because there was a lot of people my age there was a lot of you know pre-teen teen age young 20 year olds and it was a very active. Kingdom Hall as far as there was tons of parties. There were tons of cookouts and tons of get togethers. Because I loved volleyball and they couldn’t play volleyball in high school anymore. I actually found a whole group of people at 10 or 12 people that loved to play volleyball.

[00:28:03] So all of us at Keenum Hall like after a meeting like a night meeting we would go drive 10 minutes up to a volleyball court and outdoor volleyball court and play volleyball for hours after the King holiday.

[00:28:17] After the meeting. Oh yeah. So it was really super fun Hall to be a part of.

[00:28:23] Yeah that’s that’s rare. A lot of us were not bluff. Ruth you have so many opportunities for her association on housing meltdown and a lot of lessons though.

[00:28:38] You know I think that that was a definite draw for me too because I didn’t have a lot of friends in school. I just had like a handful maybe two or three really good friends in school but not like you know kind of felt like I was in a popular career old league.

[00:28:55] Everybody liked me and wanted me to go to these things because I’m the new girl and I’m doing so God and I’m so like faithful and all the things that I’m doing. And so I guess I felt the love bombing in that way where they’re like yes another new young person that we can hang out with and influence.

[00:29:13] So yeah it’s a big deal when a new person comes in and you feel like you have a new opportunity for friends because you know everyone in the congregation is especially among the young people is is pretty starved for friends.

[00:29:27] Yes. So it’s always you know an exciting time when there’s a new face.

[00:29:34] How did things you know how did how did it progressed to the point about TISM with you. You know from the time that you start living with your dad again you know up to that point a baptism. Well you know it happens so fast and in such a short amount of time and I think the biggest push.

[00:30:00] For me with it was the influence of all the young people. And the cool thing at the time because I had to distance myself from my friends at school. I could play volleyball anymore with them.

[00:30:17] And you know as a witness you were constantly talking about the Bible or talking about something that just happens to relate to what you were talking about and not really self or like distancing themselves from me. And then I got to where I felt uncomfortable talking about it with other people at school because everybody started looking at me like the weird girl who’s the witness so I actually ended up just becoming. Like a hermit crab other than the girl that I’d studied with at this new kingdom hall had a cousin who went to my high school and she was one grade up from me and she wanted to study with this with her cousin.

[00:31:05] So she would go pick Michelle up and she would pick me up and we would go hang out at her house.

[00:31:13] The girl I studied with we go hang out at her house and the girls she studied had a brother who was my age and went to because our school our high school was like the regular high school but then there was an arts school. And he went to the art school. So technically we would have been in the same school but he went to the Concord Academy. And anyway I became super fast friends with him and with Michelle incel because I had Michelle in high school with me. Then it was like I felt better about not having my worldly friends anymore because it was me and Michelle against everyone too. And actually Michelle and I and my step mom all got baptized together and I think it was just I was always studying. I went through the what does the Bible teach book with the girl I studied with. And then we progressed in to where we would just study like the Watchtower and Awake together and then we were or we read the way the awake together and then we would do studies from the theocratic ministry school book together and then we would do Tuesday night bible study we would study that book which at the time I think was the Daniel book you know so I was just really progressing really fast and I did all of my extra time that I had outside of all of my home chores that I had. I was hanging out with them I was going up a field service with them. I was really getting close to the entire family.

[00:32:55] Because the girl I studied with she had two other sisters and I really liked them too and I would hang out with them and I really liked her mom and we just had a lot of stuff together and yeah I got my step mom to go with me to do a lot of stuff and she was studying with some with an older lady at the hall to her and the lady she studied with became really close fast friends and the lady she studied with her husband was an elder.

[00:33:25] So we hung out with them a lot too and even though my step mom she was still in that mindset of like you’re not gonna bully me into doing things that I can’t physically do because I don’t have the time or the strength because I still work a full time job and I run a horse business because we boarded horses all also it wasn’t just our horses at one time we had 18 horses in our barn alone so it was a lot. And so like on a day to day basis if we weren’t going to the Kingdom Hall or I couldn’t convince my step mom to go out in service with me or take me out and surveyors or whatever.

[00:34:07] It was Dalys during the school year.

[00:34:10] Wake up go to school come home clean the house get something out prepared for dinner go down clean the poor stalls feed the horses bring the horses in and then come back out to the house cook dinner or at least check on it to make sure that like everything’s cooking just fine and then I would have time to study for the Kingdom Hall for whatever the next meeting was. And then after that we would eat dinner and then if I had like two seconds to myself I would sit down and watch tv with my step mom. We were sitting American Idol our bachelor or something and then I had to go to bed and then it was like if I had to do any homework I had to fit it within that time frame or I could do it on the bus on the way to school. So it wasn’t a student. I mean I graduated I do a3.0 GPA but it was mostly because it took like art.

[00:35:07] Office assistant or library assistant it wasn’t because I was like in all advanced English or something so I have to ask you so just what you’re talking about there is something that like that is something that that kind of resonates with me I’ve just been thinking about lately and that is that so I know myself as an adult I’m a little bit of a workaholic and I’ve just been kind of looking back at my past.

[00:35:40] You know growing up in an organisation where there is so much to do you had so much to do not only with all the study and then you know the meetings the service and then all these horse and just home chores and everything.

[00:35:58] I’m just curious do you think that that has impacted you as an adult. Do you think that it has had any impact on how busy you need to be or do you think or was it just something you did back then and you were kind of done with.

[00:36:13] No I really I. Because my dad he’s kind of a perfectionist when it would come to the house like a teaching home and he saw you sitting on a couch watching TV. He would literally point out seven things that you could be doing instead. You know. And so for me owning my own home. Now of course I’m not that anal retentive but I do when I’m stressed. And you can ask anybody that’s been in my home more than one time. I compulsively clean when I have stress in my. Also it’s not just it’s not just like oh I want to dust this it’s no I’m going to rearrange my entire house furniture you know underneath the couch in the bed. My husband he’s just like he does not get his late wears whatever he’s looking for. It was over here last week and it was over there that week. You know this is like a walk in the house and it’s like I live in a house every time he comes home now. Oh I think that’s definitely because of how much I had to clean and how well almost OCD my dad was about stuff because he’s he’s actually I think he has HIV and a lot of perfection blood type issues with that kind of like what you talked about in your own story to say that’s me you know Hamman have things a certain way in if other people don’t think that way well you should just think that way and this is how you should do you know. And I think I kind of in that way too now because he was that way not because I’m naturally that way. Right.

[00:37:53] Yeah. Oh just wondered if it made you have kind of a need to stay compulsively busy.

[00:37:59] I mean just an idea but I have changed all that in to a sedentary lifestyle. I am always busy but I’m knitting crochet a lot got this shy constantly using my hands like I’ve never just sit down and watch TV. If there is TV on. It’s not something I want to watch it’s something I can listen to. That’s why I love podcasts like listening to self-help and stuff like that. Or you know whatever because I just I’m constantly crocheting and knitting.

[00:38:31] So yeah I feel you there. I mean not crochet or knit but I’m always online and watching TV and then I’m online either responding to e-mails or learning about some business thing or just whatever.

[00:38:45] But I’m always busy and at least mentally if not physically. Yes. So I’m usually busy physically too.

[00:38:57] So how do things you know kind of play out as you were a teenager you know you’re baptized you know you obviously kind of were all there for a while with your friend here and everything. How did things kind of progressed. You know as you went on into young adulthood.

[00:39:17] Well the boy that I had mentioned the brother of the girl that I was studying with I fell madly in love with him and he was I guess that with me too for a while.

[00:39:34] And we even went to because we weren’t you know obviously allowed to go to prom or anything.

[00:39:40] Well Jehovah’s Witnesses and both of our schools had prom at the same time I went to his junior prom with him. And I mean we’re best friends. We never officially I guess dated because we were like 15 16 17 years old when we were going through this.

[00:39:59] But I mean he was like all eyes on him for three years.

[00:40:02] You know and my stepmom didn’t really like it. And my dad certainly didn’t really like it.

[00:40:16] So I got irritated because I’m like I’m truly innocent person like this isn’t like I’m not trying to do bad things with him like I just I just want to be in his company I just want to be friends with him I just want to whatever.

[00:40:32] Well then at one point I think I was like 17. He decided he doesn’t feel that way for me anymore. And that was devastating. And then it was kind of like oh now I can focus on other things because I’m not worried about him anymore. And I’m I was really active with a lot of my other friends of the kingdom heart and life really brief period. Like literally three weeks I dated like I officially dated an older boy in the Kingdom Hall and my dad did not like that and he made me end it with him. So I was like they just they had a way of making me feel dirty or making me feel like I was not being innocent with boys when I realized seriously was like I had never really kissed a boy or done really anything until I had kissed the first boy you know and it was super innocent and aside we were like making out all the time.

[00:41:34] So anyway that is it is always funny to me how how six crazy they are in the religion how. How every time two people of the opposite sex are seen together in pretty much any capacity. They assume something is going on. It’s it’s really funny that they claim that you know the world outside is sex mad but that’s all that is all there Malha. Yeah.

[00:42:10] And for me that wasn’t even something I wanted to necessarily do. I mean obviously your teenager your home. Know you think about it but it’s not something that I was like Oh I’d better be careful because I might lose my virginity to this person. It wasn’t about her. You know so I just I don’t know I became a really extroverted butterfly. Being a Jehovah’s Witness whereas before I was kind of very introverted and I liked myself a lot when I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I think that’s what I did and I think that’s what made me flourish as one for the short period of time that I really was dedicated to it.

[00:42:52] And things started to change when my dad made me break up with that with the boy that I dated that was in the kitchen Moha mostly my step mom Camilla convinced him you know he’s from an uneducated family. He was home.

[00:43:12] He doesn’t have asG.D. he is missing mom’s very pro college which I know Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t but because she went to nursing school and she was a nurse. She’s definitely pro. You need to go do something with yourself and you’re not going to settle for somebody who didn’t do that for themselves. Like which. I think that’s a good thing. Look I’m not saying that it was bad that they made me break up with him.

[00:43:36] But as a young teenager do the things that the excuses that they made I thought were really harsh you know but they’re like Oh he comes from an uneducated family and he had like we’re something wrong with his eyes and he had really thick glasses you know but he was like literally the coolest person I’ve ever met in my entire life. He was so fun. Super nice really funny. I don’t care that he had that glasses. I’m more of a beauty on the inside. Like seriously I don’t care what anybody looks like. I just love people for who they are. And I think that they didn’t they didn’t believe me in that or they just whatever they didn’t want me to be with him because they didn’t like him.

[00:44:18] And so anyone who is keeping up appearances that they wanted to keep.

[00:44:23] Yeah yeah for sure. And so that’s when I started to be like Well listen I go to school I get good grades.

[00:44:33] I go to the Kingdom Hall every meeting and I the ready for every meeting even though I’m only getting four hours of sleep at night because I’m one down with anxiety and I have insomnia. And I have to keep up those good grades in for my own standards. I have to study for every meeting and even though my step mom didn’t send it for every meeting or I would be like hey mom let’s study for the meeting that’s coming up. And she was like want to be there she’s like I’m just too tired I’ll do it later. You go ahead and do it you know. So I was always study and then when I was in high school during the time that I was baptized I actually used that as always an opportunity to write an English paper about something they had to do with being a Jehovah’s Witness or I sat out of English class because they were learning about Greek mythology and I would write a paper about being a dobs witness or you know it just whatever the situation was I tried to use it as an opportunity to study more and I had I remember what it was called but you’re not because you were in it longer than I was I left in 2008. But they had that disk where it had like every publication on it and a our library. Yes yes. OK so I had that. Yeah. That would put it in the computer and I would just research so much stuff. And like I always had questions about things but didn’t necessarily want to go to the Ellers for answers. I felt like I could find the answers on my own. And so I just was you know every spare moment that I had was on the computer researching stuff through that particular city round. So anyway.

[00:46:22] I didn’t really have questions about the religion itself.

[00:46:26] I didn’t really have I guess a problem with the religion itself. It was. It was the problem that I had with my parents was really the reason they eventually laughed and then growing into an adult and I see the you know hypocrisies in the things and how I’m treated and how things should be. And that’s what’s I guess turning me so like so sour against it now. But when I was leaving I was so depressed I get so depressed because nothing I did was good and like I said you’re in good grades in school. I was studying for the meetings I was going to meetings and I was going out and service. I was doing all the horse chores I was cleaning the house. I was making dinner. I was washing my brother. If I had a spare second a time where they would let me leave the house I would go hang out with my Jehovah’s Witness friends you know. And nothing was ever good enough. And it got to a point where for instance sorry I’m going on an aside tangent but this is like really important to my story. Because around Christmas time and my dad picked me up from high school and my brother we were sitting in a parking lot waiting for my brother and there was a Christmas song came on. Now mind you I know that it didn’t say anything about Christmas. You didn’t say anything about Jesus but it was a song that they played causes crime. I can’t even tell you which one it was I don’t remember a lot of snow man jingling bells or somebody doing something very neutral wrong you know. But to me and this is what I think my dad didn’t realize or didn’t care to realize. Was for me. I celebrated Christmas with my mom when I was little. And that’s a really sore spot for me. And it wasn’t that I necessarily missed Christmas but that time of year for me or with my mom and my grandma was extremely special for me.

[00:48:29] So anyway I said Dad will you please SHUT THAT SONG OFF we please change the station.

[00:48:35] He was so belligerent about the fact that I asked him to change that song because I was ridiculous you know like I was taking being a Jehovah’s Witness too far that I wouldn’t listen to that song and he wasn’t going to change it and he was like yelling at me in the car about how I was late being disrespectful to him because I want him to change song or something my dad was always like threatening to tell the elders on me about something and I’m thinking go ahead and I’ll tell them how much we knew smoke and all this other crap that you do that is now in obscurity can’t and don’t want to go confess my sins. So you know you did get baptized them.

[00:49:23] Oh he did.

[00:49:24] He did get baptized to my mom and him got a divorce like right before he married my step mom. He ended up getting back. Got you.

[00:49:31] And I think it was mostly because he was feeling the pressure from his family. Maybe I don’t know why he got baptized. He never really dissolved any information about his own story to me ever.

[00:49:44] Mean I don’t really talk. He doesn’t like me though. He says he was very abusive. So later that night got home he was drinking. Mind you I consider him an alcoholic.

[00:50:00] I know that’s a self diagnosed thing but hey if you have to drink every single day I’m sorry you’re an alcoholic and I just mean like have a glass of wine every night. No I mean like you’re drinking six plus beers every single night. You’re an alcoholic to me. So he was extremely verbally and mentally abusive. He would always take yes like you no matter what the situation was. You were the one at fault. It doesn’t matter what was said. The way that he acted towards him was what was wrong or what you know is. The problem and nothing was ever his fault. So anyway as he was drinking that night in of course that the fact that I like told him to do something really ticked him off. And so my son had already gone to bed and I just like take a shower and was like he was laying on me and I was sitting on the couch she was getting ready for bed and. I must have said something about a TV show that we were watching and he switched off on me and was screaming in my face and telling me that he’s going to tell the others how disrespectful I am and he’s the ME and the House and who do I think dying. And I don’t mean he’s like sitting in that chair in the living room with me. I mean he’s sitting on the coffee table in front of me three inches from my face with his big breaths bidding at me yelling at me telling me how much of a disrespectful little girl I am. And like I said he’s the head of the house. So anyway this went on for like 20 minutes of him just screaming at me. And at this point I get when I’m confronted like that I have learned not to talk back because it does not bode well for me in that house. And so we just air and kind of he would want me to look at him. You know look at me when I’m talking to you kind of thing. So I would look at him but because I was so dead inside about the whole thing. I have that deadpan look at my face and he would hate that so much like you just like your mother get that look after your face you know. And I’m like there’s a whole other story. And so finally after he pounded his fist on the table like three or four times a glass table. Broke it. My step mom comes downstairs and she says Phil what are you doing.

[00:52:44] Daughter.

[00:52:46] And that was the end of that.

[00:52:48] Then I just had to go to bed and I was like Oh OK. So it’s over. And nobody else was here to see any of that other than my stepmom was woken up by him screaming and told them to go to bed.

[00:53:01] And then also I mean that wasn’t the first time it happened but that we know that just shows it’s not because your step mom knew she could just come down and just be like it just snap out of it you know and it would be over it’s kind of sad that nobody that your step mom didn’t you know she obviously knew he was in the wrong and.

[00:53:29] But why didn’t you know if she truly cared she should have sat you down and you know had a real caring discussion with you about what just happened and try to help you.

[00:53:39] But know he would do that in my room when nobody else was there. And I would just really just have to wait for it to be over. Or it’s awful. Oh yeah. Or he would be drunk and the only time he could ever show me any affection was asked was one o’clock in the morning.

[00:54:01] He’d been drinking all night long. Come downstairs. And it’s so funny because my my bedroom was in the basement and we had a three floor and three story house and their bedroom was on the top floor. So I would be in the basement sleeping. He would come into my room he would sit on my bed with his leg drown. Beer Brad.

[00:54:22] Oh we love you.

[00:54:24] You know I love you and I’m proud of you and you don’t want to be kids and it’s all a. Nasty and oh I’m sorry. Alcohol is such a tough because my mom’s.

[00:54:39] My mom has issues with drinking too and something is very triggering for you.

[00:54:43] Oh it definitely is. Even when other people that are like I don’t know your story I don’t know what you about. But if you’re drunk just get on my face like a.

[00:54:53] I mean this sounds like that that was a defining part of your growing up. And honestly I don’t know. I’m not trying to I guess I am trying to play armchair psychologist here or something but I mean your dad has some has some problems besides the alcohol.

[00:55:18] Oh yeah. The narcissism. He it’s so bad.

[00:55:22] I don’t know if it’s you know like a narcissistic personality disorder or something but that’s that’s just so abusive and that’s the kind of stuff you know like you said you had gotten to the point where you were so dead inside you know that that’s the kind of stuff that breaks your spirit and that can break your spirit.

[00:55:42] And that is just so hard to to live around because you know like you’re walking on eggshells you never know when he’s going to snap and you don’t know when that next time is going to come where his three inches from your face you know spitting on you because he’s so angry.

[00:56:05] That’s just it’s all the you know the funny thing to with that is he would you know he was very much like you need to go to bed. Your bed time is your bed time. Call it fine though if he would catch me in the basement because the basement was very big it had his office my bedroom a bathroom the laundry room in a rock room and it was kind of like the cat show because it was a walkout basement to the barn. So we had. It was always very dirty because we had all the barn clothes. That’s where the dog kennels were. That’s like where you know I lived but anyway if he caught me in the middle of the night cleaning down there cause I got to a point where I was compulsively cleaning because I couldn’t sleep. He wouldn’t tell me what a bed he’d be like.

[00:56:59] You know after he’d been drinking you come down you know maybe want to have one of those conversations with me and he’d be like oh well you probably should go to bed but thanks for clean that or it only he really wouldn’t know what to say because he was like I mean Nana how had something of the mind you want to talk about well because I was cleaning.

[00:57:18] He was like okay with that. It was it was weird. And um so but that the that instance I had with him I think was definitely the turning point of me not wanting to live there with them anymore.

[00:57:36] I was 17 when it happened or 16 eternal almost 17.

[00:57:40] And so because the boy that I had you know was crazy about didn’t feel that way about me anymore. And I couldn’t date anybody else at the Kingdom Hall. It wasn’t like I was boy crazy but I felt like. If I hung out with a boy that would mean that he was my boyfriend because he would have to be a chaperone. And it’s like no I just get along with boys better. I have a more I guess tomboy thing about me am I was into sports and doing like playing games and video games and I was really nerdy and all.

[00:58:17] So I started to get super depressed because I felt like I didn’t fit in anywhere anymore.

[00:58:25] And a lot of the girls stopped. I think liking me at the Kingdom Hall because the boys liked me. I don’t want to sound super conceited because I don’t really know how many of them actually liked me.

[00:58:36] But you can definitely see their ones like me kind of thing. I can see that yeah.

[00:58:42] And so then it was like I was distancing myself from the girls the kingdom.

[00:58:47] And then Michelle my really good friend went to high school together she graduated a year before me.

[00:58:53] So I was in high school for a whole year myself and she started going to the Kingdom Hall that was closer to her and not my kingdom home. So she started making friends with the other kingdom how she was going to hang out with them. So we were seeing you know each other and I just felt really alone. I got to a point where I would just call the guy that I had dated for that short period of time and call him in the middle of the night and I would just talk to him for hours and hours on end. And he wasn’t weird he wasn’t like turning like be my boyfriend he was just a really good friend and he would just talk to me and he would confess because he wasn’t baptized he was an unbaptized publisher so he confessed to me that he was drinking and he was glad I called Kaz’s that he could like I’ll lay some of his stuff on me and that I lay some of my stuff on hand. We were like kind of hate on everybody with each other.

[00:59:47] And so I had gotten Solal with it at home that I see.

[00:59:59] Now mind you at this point I’m trying to actually be friendlier towards the people that I was friends with prior in school because I’m there by myself without Michelle. So if I had to survive one way or another at home you to my friend Rachael again and she was very accepting. And then there was a boy at school that was showing interest in me and I didn’t let anybody in. I would sit next to my two girlfriends that I had there. Ian Lee boys Widlake would never talk to me and try and flirt with me and stuff and I was like NUPE like there was a wall there. You were not breaking through. I don’t care how charming you are. Carol silly you are. Anakin Olaf you I’m not going say things I’m not supposed to. So but I’m getting close to my friends in school and I start like breaking down my my barriers towards other people at school and my home life was so terrible. I would sneak my stepmom’s painkillers in me being super naïve about how this man works.

[01:01:03] I thought I’d overdosed only for Motrin itself. And this is over like I take it for extra strict prescriptions strict Molterer and I mean TMI put my stomach pumped I hope that I just died before the ambulance gets here like I was ready to just like it all.

[01:01:21] I I really seriously wanted to just die because I was so lonely at home. Yeah yeah. There you go. Alex Yeah and I would like I would sneak through alcohol at night my parents alcohol just a little bit you know just to try and like help me go to sleep and nothing really worked and then I called my friend Ratel and I told her I did. And she’s like no you’re going to be fine. You didn’t overdose like you’re gonna be fine. She’s like but I really hate that you are in that situation. Like how did you get to that point.

[01:01:59] You know so I was really confiding in her. And then one boy that was friends with all of us walked her like group.

[01:02:08] He was really showing an interest in me and so like I would hang out with him at school and we talked and then I you know I liked him and he like asking me out so late. Okey Asher towards us boyfriend girlfriend at school kind of thing because obviously I can’t hang out with you outside of school. But then I got really ballsy and because my bedroom was in the basement it was a walkout basement. He convinced you to sneak out in the middle of the night walk down my driveway and go through the words to where this truck was and he was at his house and we would hang out at his house for a couple of hours and he’d make sure that I got back home before 4:00 o’clock in the mornings that nobody would know that I was gone. So I would do this for like a month a couple times a week. I would sneak out and go to his house and because things obviously progressively were getting worse at home and I was trying to keep up facade with them but knowing that no I don’t want to be a Jehovah’s Witness anymore. I don’t want this split like I want to be able to do what I want to do and not be judged for or at least begin to judge me for doing something and I am going to do something bad you know because I was such a goody two shoe that like I’m gonna give you a reason to move you’re gonna accuse me of it I’m going to leave do it. Exactly. So that’s when he was a big he was really into smoking weed and so I tried that with him and I’m thinking what does it matter. My parents do it so they can get mad at me for doing it you know because they do it so I was motivated with them in there and um it was it was right after my 18th birthday I decided I’d done I need to have a reason to not be a Jehovah’s Witness anymore because my parents aren’t going to let me not be one. It’s certainly my stepmom mum and so I had sex with this boy and I went home and said it was because things happened so fast like it’s hard for me to remember exactly the timeline of it but I know that I told my dad.

[01:04:23] And sat on that I snuck out and was with Chris and I had sex with him and then I didn’t want to be a Jehovah’s Witness anymore and that they would have to disfellowshipped me because I had premarital sex. And you can’t say I can’t be a Jehovah’s Witness anymore because I did this bad thing.

[01:04:39] And I said I’m not going to the kingdom anymore I’m not studying and that I’m doing nothing. And I think my dad at that point because he was so good at bullying me he didn’t know what to do. He was dong Ratho on a day when you stand up you know and he didn’t know what to say. I mean he was speechless other than he said that he was. He threatened to sue Chris with statutory rape and I was like yeah yeah can’t because I’m 18. He’s like oh was it a birthday present. I’m like what. That was the dumbest thing to say. Is it a birthday present. So anyway he doesn’t really know I guess what to say. And my step mom was like I’m gonna take you to that kingdom hall and dragged by her hair. If you know whether you want to go or not I will drag you. And I was like okay whatever. So I waited in the car.

[01:05:37] At the kingdom home I had a couple of people which was super weird a couple of people that like I barely knew.

[01:05:45] I mean they were nice people but they came up to the car and the one girl I had hung out with her a couple times as she was like begging me not to do whatever it is that I was about to do. She just knew something was going to happen and she just felt the need to come out and talk to me because she just didn’t want me to do what I was going to do an arm like she would like. Confess the story about how she had a blood transfusion when she was a kid and she just remember how bad it was and how she feels like there’s the soul of an old man living in her because of the blood transfusion she had in mind. She felt free hand. And I’m like What does that have to do with anything like you don’t even know what’s going on and you’re out here begging me to do not do something. So I’m shooting back inside. And then an added meaning was over. I’m with Eric inside and my step mom obviously had talked to the elders and told them what happened in Salt Lake. That was my official meeting was that night and I went in and I talked to them and they you know they asked me what happened. I told them exactly what had happened. And I said in I don’t want to be a jobs witness anymore. And then one elder which is the older of the wife that Ron had studied with. You know I was really close with him and his wife and I felt bad because I did really like them and he just looked like he was heartbroken. I think that I was leaving because he didn’t like me so much and but at that point like I said I was pretty dead inside. Everything that had to do with anything with all that and so that night I was disfellowshipped and later that week because it had gotten so bad at my house there I skipped school in the middle class. I convinced Rachel to skip class with me. Not that I really had to convince her. She was like yeah let’s hit you shitless go. We drove to my house and I packed up all my stuff in her bedroom in her car and I left and I never went home. I like is that emancipated myself at 18 and just high school.

[01:07:59] So let me ask you how how was that home after you were disfellowshipped.

[01:08:06] It just was they were you know home. Has that had on. It wasn’t really that. I don’t think I waited very long to really see.

[01:08:18] What would happen. After I left I was just ready. I just I didn’t want to see them anymore. And it went to be a part of anything anymore. I literally think it was maybe two days after I this fellowship that I just left.

[01:08:29] You

[01:08:30] were just done with all of it. I was so done with everything. I don’t blame you. Yeah.

[01:08:36] And that is a ballsy move at 18 you know to like you said you know pretty much emancipate yourself. Where did you go.

[01:08:45] Well

[01:08:46] I wanted to stay with Rachel but her parents did not like my parents. And you can’t blame them but they didn’t really want that kind of drama in their house. What I definitely didn’t blame them for. So Rachel’s like as much as you are my friend and I want to help you. You can’t stay here. I’m like look at us. It’s fine. But Chris the boy that I was dating he just lived at home with his dad and his dad worked nightshift and then like he went to schools that were sleeping. And as it was really all about. Me coming and staying like Chris kind of told the situation and his dad was like oh yeah that’s fine. So I dealt with Chris and I think that’s why my dad’s family thinks like I’m boy crazy. But it’s like there’s really the only Blaziken day.

[01:09:38] So get in where you fit in at that point.

[01:09:40] Exactly.

[01:09:42] So after that. Because obviously Tom is going to be on to this day. The thing I regret the most about that. Part about it was my little brother was 8 years old and had never gone home on the bus by himself.

[01:09:58] And like you know he’s eight years old but I guess at the time I thought he was so much more naive than he probably was. And you know like I said we grew up in a very rural area.

[01:10:10] So for him to like take the 35 minute bus ride home and not know where I’m at and I’m always there and then he has to like be home and then he’s home after school by himself at eight years old. Nobody’s there because everybody’s at work for hours on end you know like I felt really bad about that. That’s literally the only thing I felt bad about.

[01:10:33] Yeah. And that’s that’s that’s really sweet. But the reality is that he was your responsibility.

[01:10:42] Oh that means that he kind of was.

[01:10:45] Yeah yeah yeah I totally understand feeling like you abandoned him in that situation. Whether or not it was your responsibility or not. I’m sure you didn’t. Oh sure you it’s a shame you couldn’t have taken them with you.

[01:11:02] Yeah I know huge. Yeah. He and I do love my brother but him and I have never really meshed well. He he’s like a totally different person. He’s like an alien to me you like. We just don’t have anything in common.

[01:11:21] Oh yes.

[01:11:23] As you grow up and grow up differently.

[01:11:26] That’s where so you’re disfellowshipped you’re on your own now you you’re living with Chris and his family.

[01:11:39] Do you go ahead and complete high school and you do go to college or how’s life play out after that.

[01:11:47] So I had always wanted to be a beautician. And I think that that definitely like fell within the oh you could totally do that as a joke was witness because you have to go to school but it’s not for very long. So everybody was pretty supportive about me being a beautician and that’s what I thought I wanted to do. So I graduate high school. Nobody came. I was like Whatever that’s fine. My mom’s side of the family. I was like talking to more. And after I left I witan visited my grandmother and I called my mother and talked to her and told her what happened and she was so ecstatic that I wasn’t living there with my dad anymore and I had like broken free. From everything. So she came into town to visit me.

[01:12:37] She was living in Indianapolis at the time and so I graduated high school fine.

[01:12:46] And I wanted to go to be this school and this is where it gets like super weird because I’m really messed up. I’m doing a lot of drugs with Chris. I’m kind of like just living out this extremely rebellious and very irresponsible part of my life where I don’t know how to get a job I don’t know how you know the only job outside of doing chores for my parents or painting would in the summertime for my dad’s business was I. I was a when I was 14 15 14 or 15. My friend Michelle had gotten me a job at one of the resorts around there as a housekeeper for the summer cleaning. It was a you know as somebody who knows somebody can a job you know. So I had never gotten a job on my own I didn’t even know how to do anything like what I put on a resonating I’d never done anything. So it was really hard for me to get a job and really do anything to support myself. So Chris what kind of do my dad and step mom they can. I don’t know what it was that gave them kind of a change of heart. Maybe they were going through. I don’t know their own issues with things. After I had left. So we kind of started talking again. There was an instance I don’t really want to share and here because it’s extremely personal but it kind of threw my step back in my life. And so she would call me and see how I was doing. And so I told her you know I guess I want to be this school but I want to go to beauty school at this college. That’s an hour and a half away. And I can’t really afford the gas to go down there like I can’t get student loans to get me through the college. But like actually having the extra money because beauty school a 40 hour a week school is like a real job without getting paid. It’s like an internship. You know what you’re paying them. So to have a job outside of that is really hard when you don’t have reliable transportation or extra money to to drive all the way there. So she says well I want to help you with college. I still think you need to go to college. I still think you need to do something and I will help you with that. I’ll give you money. You know armed aside money to look happy with your Gasson you know through travels only be like 500 dollars a month to go toward that will be our contribution to you getting an education skills. Well that’s very sweet of you thank you. As leg but you do realize I’m not going to come back to the Kingdom Hall and she’s like Well you know that’s our only a stipulation. But as much as I want you to come back like I’ll still help you but you just need to think about it. Just pray about it. You know look whatever. And then my dad he’s like well what is Chris doing. Does he need a job. Because I need somebody. Who do you know who. Who needs to do this or that around the job. And you know like I could I could probably throw him some work if he needs some money to do whatever and sells yeah like I’ll ask him. And Chris was like yeah he wants to give me work I’ll do it. So he started working for my dad and then my dad had a conversation with me about well do you love him. You know you’ll never be accepted back or be able to come back to the Kingdom Hall or be a part of this family unless you’re married. You can’t just be living in sin so he’s like you really love him. I was like Well yeah I loved him. I didn’t really know whatever well think I love him and so I convincedF.K. convinced him to marry me and we got married.

[01:16:42] I was 19 and let it go well.

[01:16:49] Our marriage obviously fell apart within like six months. I was I divorced him when I was 20 but mostly because I had so many my own issues. But he did a lot of drugs at the time and I was like Yeah that was fine for a minute like I did that and my rebellious phase. But let’s let’s grow up here like I’m actually pretty responsible person. I can have my head on my shoulders and I want to kind of thing. And I was over it and he was not ready to be over that. And for me it was just kind of like I don’t really don’t want this these series of mistakes to be who I am in my real life kind of thing. So I left him and he was devastated because at that point I think that’s when he realized that he didn’t want to be with me even though we weren’t really the greatest couple. And I had gone to the Kingdom Hall a couple of times that we get married and just the looks that I got at that kingdom hall he had all houses like all this is not and no I can not do this. Especially the boy that I was in love with he was there and he was looking at me like Who are you.

[01:18:02] And I’m thinking to myself I don’t know. I don’t know what I’m doing. Is trying to please everyone you know.

[01:18:12] And I had made an offhand comment about my dad being an angel to one of his employees. It was supposed to be a joke. I said it in a joking way and I didn’t say it in a malicious way.

[01:18:29] Well they got back to him that I had said that and there must have been misconstrued the way I said it because after that Kristen how anymore work. Oh I’m not helping with college. You’re so disrespectful. You’re not even going to the Kingdom Hall you couldn’t even finish going to the meetings.

[01:18:44] You all in. So now stuck in of marriage. My parents have cut me off and the. You know Chris isn’t working anymore and I’m already in college. I’m making it to you know beauty school every day. And I found a girl that lived by me that I carpooled with and it just got so to the point where I didn’t have any money I couldn’t keep going to that school or had a drop out. And then you know I was like 4000 plus dollars in debt from taking out of school loans to get into a college that I didn’t even finish.

[01:19:21] And you know Christianize relationship was really rocky and falling apart. And so you know when I left him I just moved to Indianapolis my mom.

[01:19:34] And I stayed with her. But because all of her arised relationship was nonexistent for five years. And then all of a sudden we were thrown back together and she didn’t know how to. It was weird because like as a kid she wanted to be my friend not necessarily my mom. And then now that I’m an adult she want to be my mom and not my friend. You know so then she’s like trying to tell me how to live my life and I’m like girl I just left a place that was like this. You cannot tell me how to live my life now that I am 20 years old and yet I’m living with you. But Kaline like.

[01:20:14] So her nice relationship was very rocky for a really long time and I ended up.

[01:20:19] She helped me though get a job like she is really going to get me a job. She’s really good at making your résumé look good and she definitely helped me get in to that.

[01:20:30] I worked atJ.C. Penney here in Indianapolis and that’s actually where I met my current husband. He had him and I sold shoes together.

[01:20:38] So her.

[01:20:42] But yeah.

[01:20:46] That’s how that’s how that ended up.

[01:20:48] Well yeah that’s so. Have you ever have you ever talked to that.

[01:21:06] I think I know the answer to this is why I’m stumbling but have you ever talked to your witness out of your family anymore.

[01:21:14] My dad’s parents died and I was with my current husband. We were only together for maybe six months or so when I when my grandfather died and my gramma had already passed. And I was invited to the funeral at the Kingdom Hall. And I told Eric kind of my ethics my husband. I told him kind of like you know like about my past and everything and I said I want to go. I think this will be a good opportunity to try and you know mend things considering they reached out to me to tell me that grandpa died and I said but I’m going to warn you like this is going to be super awkward. I’m not going to stay with them we’re going to get a hotel room because I can’t stay with them. I can’t anything in it. We went we went up there got our hotel room and then we got a phone call like hey we’re having like all the families don’t get together here at the house. Please come. We would like for you guys to be here. And they said Okay so we go. And my dad. I mean he he loved his parents so much. He would do anything for them. He did a lot of things for them. And I think that’s why he felt like his kids should be that way towards him. I get it matter what our relationship was like you lived and breathed and died for your parents. That’s how he was with his parents.

[01:22:42] And you know so I went to their house he and my dad gave me a really big hug.

[01:22:50] He’s crying and everything like I’m really sad like I start crying you know. And then he takes his hand on the back of my head and yanks my head back by my hair and was like. I don’t even remember what it what he’s saying because I was so shocked that he did that. But basically he was like you need to straighten your life out and be a part of this family. Kind of thing. And I I I hit him on the chest and pushed him away and I was like See this is why or we don’t have a relationship. You are not allowed to touch me this way. You were not allowed to talk to me this way. This is why our relationship is so volatile and if you want a relationship with me we have to stop right here. Pretend not pretend that things didn’t happen but you did stuff. I did stuff. Let’s call it a day. Let’s start over. If you want a relationship with me you’re going to have to do that. And I think because of his parents death he was willing to accept that I guess. And so from then on we were we were pretty much okay. I mean once in a while we would have a text message between each other where we were like disagree on things and he would try and bully me into thinking a certain way or you know Hill me would make comments about how I was a dumb kid and I did this and that I made these mistakes. Don’t you wish you didn’t do that. And you know you realize when you’re older that your parents were right and.

[01:24:23] You know he would say things like that it’s like a very insecure person who constantly needs validation that he’s the big man on campus.

[01:24:34] Yes. Yes.

[01:24:35] And he I think because I wasn’t there he kind of transferred that aggression towards my brother. And so when I would visit them. And he would get upset about something my brother did something that made him mad like I had told you in our conversation before that I would like stand in the doorway you know like you’re I to be that somebody that sticks up for my little brother.

[01:25:00] We may not get along. We may not be close but I’m not gonna let you bully somebody on my watch like I’m not scared of you anymore. I proved that I could leave and I could not rely on you and I could stand up to you and he wouldn’t do it. Thing about it. So you know I tried to I would try and be there for him.

[01:25:20] Well then Eric and a few years later fastforward I got pregnant.

[01:25:28] We weren’t married. I was scared to get married again because of the stigma that not only my mom had for being married a few times. No religion to be like your mom. Well no I got married because I was pressured into it. My first marriage and it was a joke. So this next time I’m get married unless I know that this is for real and I want to be with this person and share life with them. So we get pregnant and we had our first kid in 2014 and late 2014. So in the summer of 2014 they were having the international convention.

[01:26:09] And I was like you know the smurf lives right.

[01:26:14] Yeah I think it was in Indianapolis lesbian never went through. And I was visiting my parents from Michigan so I was up in northern Michigan visiting them. And. At that point from the years that I had left to that point my parents lost their house was their business the farm the barn business and everybody else had to find somewhere to take their horses. My step mom had to get rid of a lot of her horses and board somewhere else. So my dad had bought a piece of property in a different part of town and he was going to build his own. You know the next house that they had they were going to build their own house with cash no mortgage so that if he was out of work like he had then that nobody could take your house away from them. So in the meantime key they stripped that property that they lived at before because my dad literally built everything on their property. So he’s like the bank owns the house but they don’t own this barn and they don’t know my shop and they don’t own the fence and they also he likes strip that place and took all the materials to this new place and built himself a pool barn. So they’re living out of this poll barn and I’m visiting them. I’m really pregnant. An elder from the congregation that my family originally went to when I was a little kid. So he’s a family friend. I’ve known him my entire life. I’m pregnant and I answer the door and he says Oh hi Sydney and I was like hi Gary. And he said well how are you doing. You know I was he’s an older so you can technically talk to me and I’m like I’m a girl and I’m pregnant with my first kid. We’re ever we’re just kind of being friendly. And I think mostly because we were fairly friends like I’ve known him my whole life. It wasn’t as like oh you’re a disfellowshipped person. I need to keep the strictly business right. So he’s like well I was here to talk to your dad but since you’re here how about I just let you know all about this little you know I’m just going to give him this pamphlet about the international convention you know and I’m just sitting there like Aha.

[01:28:35] Aha.

[01:28:37] And he said something to me that really started me down the path of this religion isB.S.

[01:28:48] Not only do I not want to be a part of it because my own personal reasons but this is obscene. He decided to make a comment about how we really go did this. I think you like it. I think it would help you come back to Jehovah because you’re having a little one now.

[01:29:05] You don’t want them to not make it was like Are you or effing kidding me.

[01:29:13] You will move in a room.

[01:29:16] And you’re going to tell me that because of my spirituality that God’s just going to destroy my kid and does not even give him a chance because of my spirituality. Well you know that this is my step mom. She she was like in the shower shoe throwing something where she couldn’t come to the door. Gary laughed. I was nice to him but I relayed the message to Penny. No sir. Mom and I said that’s not okay with me. Is that okay with you that you believe that that this religion believes that can you believe that she goes. Well.

[01:29:55] Oh I get Yeah. I mean I know that that’s like what they believe but they shouldn’t really know what to say. And I was like You’re seriously going to stand there and look at me and tell me that God is going to destroy my child and he’s not going to live because of a mistake I made.

[01:30:15] And she’s like Well it does say that the children pay for the sins of the father. I said yeah in the old testament but the new testament says that Jesus died for all of us. So that’s Nolan Boyd. She’s like well you. I’m going to get that she’s like I don’t really know. You know is really know what to say when you when you make a logical when you say something that is so logical and she knows that they don’t believe that or that they believe another way. She’s just like whatever.

[01:30:46] Like maybe I don’t really agree with that but she knows it looks really bad. What they actually believe looks pretty horrific but they know how it looks to the outside world so they have no problem mincing words to try to give off the optics that they want to give Ray.

[01:31:05] Well in my dad he was when he found out that I was pregnant he was real mad. I think mostly I mean I wasn’t married Eden he really really likes my husband or like my husband now. So I don’t think he was mad that I was pregnant with her when I was pregnant with. I think he was just mad that I was having a kid and I wasn’t married and my dad at the time I’m just he just never feels like I am a sufficient human being or something. So even though he loves his grandkids he hasn’t met the new one. And I mean he’s like crazy though about my older son and my daughter. So but every time I’ve gotten pregnant he just has it in mind you he doesn’t go to the Kingdom Hall and he’ll say I can’t believe you’re bringing another soul into this treacherous world. Ahmed is right around the corner and how could you be so cruel as to getting pregnant again and bring another beautiful soul into this.

[01:32:11] Also does. Oh I just it’s just such a cheerful outlook. No kidding.

[01:32:18] I mean it’s the way they see the world though.

[01:32:20] You know they think that it’s almost irresponsible to bring children into this world because it’s just going to be destroyed. And Usher kids watch your kids reach that age of accountability then even even if you were a witness that you can’t help them there and you have to stand on their own so you’re pretty pretty tough way of things. Everything from the daily life to you know any future prospects including your kids. And I’m sorry that you that guilt trip on you there at the door about your unborn child.

[01:33:00] Oh I was so mad that my step mom she knew better than the like trying to find. I mean she was just like yeah I know I don’t really know what to say about that because you’re not going to tell a pregnant woman that you agree with that man that 12 hour drive.

[01:33:19] So.

[01:33:20] So you have you clearly left those personal reasons and left the religion and like you said when that Elder is standing at the door and who’s trying to use this opportunity to shame you into going to coming back for the cult. What is it though like you know from there how did you start waking up you know mentally. Did you start looking into the religion more or what did you start doing that has kind of helped you from there.

[01:33:59] Well it makes me my parents you know like has shown in my story.

[01:34:07] They kind of did it. They were foot floppy as far as the shunning thing. You know they would shoot me if they felt like it was justified. But then their conscience would be getting in the way and wanting to reach out.

[01:34:21] Because like I said they really like my husband now they have grandkids and it’s kind of like oh well I can overlook certain things or I can not shun her as long as she is good enough. You know just so I can see my grandkids and things like that. And in it we went back and forth because if I posted a picture of us like dressed up for Halloween old then I’m not you know they’re not going attack me for a year and then you know then they’re going to talk to me or talk to me again because when I voice my opinions or my IM logical thinking you know they don’t really know what to say. I mean my step mom will agree with me on a lot of things that I have issues with. But at the end of the day she still thinks it’s the truth. She still thinks that I need to come back and you know now I have put a Kabah issue to the back and forth and I am I’m making them shun me because they want to for their religion. They don’t want to because of their humanity. But I’m not allowing them to go back and forth on it anymore. I walked them from contacting me and as hard as it is as sad as it is I think it’s better for me to not have that turmoil and I’m not going to put my kids in. That’s when I really wanted to get in too. Now why is this so bad. I know why it’s bad because of what I think but why is this so bad. And that’s when I started to really listen to shows like your show or Lady see and her husband that does their show the critical thinking show and you know just a lot of stuff I didn’t even know was going on like the two witness rule. And I mean there’s so much that I was like wow my story is like nothing in comparison to some of these people and what they’ve gone through in like I knew it wasn’t the truth. I knew it wasn’t a good religion. I felt as though it was a cult. I just never knew. I just never had the proof. You know and it really constituted as a cult until I researched it and I’m like oh yeah that’s exactly what it is. That’s this all of this is. Yeah.

[01:36:48] So when you grow up with that you know you don’t really have clear vision as to what it is. It’s interesting for me actually on a few of these interviews and then just on forums and things.

[01:37:02] It’s always fascinating for me to hear what the loved one of someone who is a witness says when they go to the meetings for the first time and so many times though apparently come out of a Keenum Hall and be like that’s messed up you know and you know for us that was just normal because it’s all we knew but apparently you know for people who have any amount of perspective on the outside who who go they can pretty quickly see what’s going on and so yeah it’s very tough and it takes somebody to kind of to kind of open your eyes or show you that when you’re finally starting to wake up because it’s really hard to get enough distance from it to see it for what it is anymore.

[01:37:57] Mary is there anything that you’d like people to know about the religion that you know is there anything you’ve learned about it in particular that you think people should know on the who have never been a witness before.

[01:38:16] Yeah they’re nice when they come to the door and I was nice to but I was naive you know and a lot of these people are just sheep and you know people say how bad this religion is and then they say Oh yeah but these people are so nice we yes they are nice and they’re probably very decent people but they don’t know what they’re doing.

[01:38:39] I mean they think they do but in their well-meaning people and so like don’t be super rude to them but at the same time just don’t even bother with hurt just just don’t.

[01:38:51] Yeah. It’s not though it’s the people that are horrible necessarily it’s the culture that they’re involved in this thing that’s bigger than them is.

[01:39:01] What about also know your group. Well to I just I get so.

[01:39:08] Frustrated with people who are not Jehovah’s Witnesses but they love people who are in so you say Okay but what about this and this and they get so brainwashed into thinking that if anybody says anything bad about that religion who then it’s that’s their problem. It’s not true. People are just making up lies. People who aren’t even Joves witnesses will say that and it bothers me because it’s like there’s always two sides to a story and the fact that you’re dismissing this other person’s story just because it shows a bad light on something that you don’t think is that bad is wrong and you need to listen to other people’s story because just because somebody on Yelp says that a restaurant is terrible doesn’t mean it is just as delicious doesn’t mean it is wrong and you are right.

[01:40:04] There’s no valid your religion is so personal. That’s it. It is a person’s individual faith their individual hope for salvation there. It helps them overcome their individual fears of death mortality the world around them it gives them some sense of control. When you start threatening that people tend to lash out personally because because it hurts. It’s something that emotionally fills something in them that they need to and you know to each his own whatever anyone wants to believe. That’s fine. The only problem is when you start hurting other people and you know unfortunately Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t have the greatest track record. As far as not hurting people or allowing some of the most vulnerable among them to be hurt. And it’s very sad. Does your. Do you think that your past still impacts you. You know just as a person.

[01:41:16] Oh for sure. I still have a really cause I’m lucky now. My husband works two jobs and he allows me to be a stay at home mom to our three children. I have a hard time being out in the real world and working. Like when I was selling shoes where I met him you know I came from being a total extrovert super butterfly in the Kingdom Hall to clamming back up and then when I had to get a real job here in Indianapolis it was like I didn’t know what to do and how to talk to people anymore. I didn’t know how to relate to the culture down here compared to the really sheltered really small predominantly white culture of northern Michigan like I had one black friend and he was half Irish and he was also is also gay and was the only black kid in our school. So I mean he was an anomaly in itself. It wasn’t like he was like other you know African-American people I’ve met.

[01:42:23] So which is funny to this day of him and I are actually still pretty good friends and we would have a lot of like religious discussions because before he came out as gay he his dad he was this you you went to a regular Christian church. But we would have a lot of meaningful conversations about church and things like that. And now he’s like I’m gay and I’m atheist.

[01:42:45] And if you don’t like it whatever and I’m like I’m not anything and if you don’t like it whatever. So I’m over that now to help him.

[01:42:57] Yeah yeah but it is it is it is hard to to come out of the religion and then try to try to live life from the normal world to some degree and you know find out where you fit in.

[01:43:13] Well in that feeling like you really have that.

[01:43:17] I think that’s the biggest thing is like you know we are Jehovah’s Witness you have this destination that you’re going to get to eventually and so you dislike live day by day as it. Whereas when you’re free of that you’re like you don’t even know where to begin. The possibilities of what you can do with your life or where you could go and you see a lot of times I feel like I have the want to do things but I don’t have the courage to take that leap to get out of my comfort zone that I have established now as a stay at home. You know or I don’t think was going to go back to college should do something. What on earth would that be like. I ended up going back to school and I actually have a beauty license I graduated from beauty school here in Indianapolis.

[01:44:04] But that was super hard for me also.

[01:44:08] So I’m like artist don’t even want to go down that road. My kids are in school my in get a job I’m just going to be one of those moms are just told all the kids everywhere they want to go and be at all of sports and do all the things I don’t even know what I want for myself. Right now I’m kind of living vicariously through my children even mothered you know 3 2 and 6 months so sofa role you know that.

[01:44:30] That is a great point though you know freedom while a great quality. It’s not. It always comes with certain prices and one of those is responsibility you know you’re responsible for your own life. Now you know you can’t just handed over to a Colts and say here you know you tell me what to do and you tell me when to do it and I’ll do it and then life will be OK. It’s it’s it’s scarier because now you know we have to make our own decisions we have to decide you know does this fit for me or does this not end. Because you and I and a lot of people listening have never had that opportunity really especially from our formative years it’s very difficult to suddenly be kind out there and be like well what do I want to do.

[01:45:25] I don’t know. I’ve never I’ve never been able to do what I wanted to do. So it’s really it’s not easy to quite figure out you know because we’ve done what other people wanted us to do for so long.

[01:45:37] Well and for me too as far as life skills went I think clean a house like nobody’s business.

[01:45:43] And I can say I want to move down toward a job.

[01:45:50] You’re not very far away from where I live. So I told her let me just go down there and do the interview he’s like leave me with three kids for that long.

[01:46:03] Yeah.

[01:46:03] We thought we’d end up hiring you anyway.

[01:46:06] Put it away too because I told I told my husband I’m so like quirky sometimes I have this obsession with watching on YouTube professional cleaning videos. Oh really.

[01:46:20] Oh yes. To watch professional carpet cleaning people go into these places like restaurants and the carpets nasty you like bring it back to life and I tell him I’m like I want to that’s so bad. Like something about that is so satisfying and he’s just like you are so weird.

[01:46:41] Well then I guess I’m weird so I don’t sit around watching the videos but I do yeah.

[01:46:49] You know there’s something satisfying taking something and making it shine again or you know restoring it in some way through the cleaning process.

[01:47:00] That’s funny. Maybe who knows maybe maybe in the future. That is something that you could pursue if you enjoy it. You know I mean there’s certainly nothing wrong with doing that.

[01:47:13] I told them I was like huggy never any women in these videos. I want to be the first woman in these videos professionally cleaning these carpets with these guys.

[01:47:23] So there really are.

[01:47:24] That’s interesting to me. I guess if I think about it yeah any time I’ve ever been around a carpet cleaner in apartments or houses or anything it’s always a man.

[01:47:36] Yeah that’s what you’re claiming.

[01:47:40] You know being a maid is predominantly like a woman’s.

[01:47:43] Oh yeah.

[01:47:44] Because I’m the first fashion show I’ve ever had and I clean houses and you know there’s I’ve run into issues in the past where women didn’t want me to clean in their house because they didn’t think I could clean because I was a man. So you know it’s funny. There’s all kinds of prejudgments about those types of things. Yeah. Yeah. There you go start your carpet cleaning business that would be awesome.

[01:48:14] Let’s find ideas that I can work for. So yeah well what are some things.

[01:48:25] Well let me ask you this I mean I guess you do have right now some distance between you and your family.

[01:48:35] And I don’t know if this has been an issue for you or not. Can’t matter if we’ve talked about it before.

[01:48:40] But sometimes it’s difficult when when X witnesses have kids sometimes they’re witness relatives will want to have something to do with them. But it’s really just to kind of get at the kids to try to teach because they want to save the kids they want to teach them you know the truth. And so at least with this distance you don’t have to worry about that right now but you know is there anything. If you had something you could say to your family if if they hear this and they were to to you know want to shut you off again. It sounds like they kind of do anyway. Is there anything you would want to say to them.

[01:49:33] Mostly that it breaks my heart that it’s my kids won’t see the good side of them that I know that they have that I’ve been able to experience occasionally with them. They’re better at sharing their. With everybody else but me.

[01:49:55] But I know it’s there and I know they’re genuine. I know that they love my kids and I’m very sad that they.

[01:50:06] They’re not going to have that with my kids because a lot of who I am. I think the the good qualities that I have come from my dad. I think that the good qualities he has. I I definitely got some of those and for them to not know who they are as a part of me makes me really sad but at the same time I’m firm on my children not being a part of that.

[01:50:41] I don’t want them to hurt the way I did. I don’t want them to not know what real love is. I don’t want their love for my children to be an additional home. I don’t think that that’s fair on a child especially a child. As an adult it’s whatever. You know people come and go in your life even your family. But as a child I don’t want them to know what that feels like. Maybe that’s sheltering and maybe that’s because of my own upbringing. I’m going to you know go maybe to extreme on that or people might think that that’s a little bit extreme but I I I very much feel that I don’t want my children to go through that. You know my husband didn’t go through that. And he’s a perfectly fine person. You know everything. He knows what we know what it’s like to have love and you know a lot of times they don’t think he understands or he he just really doesn’t know how to relate to me and a lot of things or how I feel but his family’s never done that to him so he is just okay with us not not being close with them because he doesn’t want our children to have to deal with that. So if anything I just want to tell them you know they may look at it like this is my fault but it’s not because I gave them the opportunity to be in their life.

[01:52:08] I just asked them to not pressure me in to anything and to not talk to me about that. No religion anymore.

[01:52:19] And me it doesn’t matter what I have said to other people what they have seen or heard me say to other people or on Facebook or whatever. You know if you wanted to be part of your grand kids life you could of. And you can’t put that we can’t put all of that on me.

[01:52:37] So that’s that’s one of the it’s always one of the saddest things to me is when not only do they shun the ex witness but they shun their kids or they’ll jerk their kids in and out you know that they’ll be there for the kids for a while and then suddenly they’re shining again or whatever. It’s just you would think that if you had a religion and you claimed Jesus to be your Christ to be your exemplar a man who never shunned anyone a man who ate with the tax collectors and the centres a man that drew little kids to hell because he was so sincere. You would think that if you wanted to create something attractive to other people to try to draw them to a religion that you would do so with love and that you would do so with positivity and not fear and shame and guilt and shunning and all this stuff. And it’s it’s so sad that kids get caught in the crossfire of something. You know what did they do they didn’t do anything. And ultimately in the end it’s your parents that are deciding to treat you a certain way. It’s their fault. Jehovah’s Witnesses like to they are so masterful victim shaming or victim blaming they’re so masterful at saying Well you didn’t follow this prescribed course that I set up for you unfairly so therefore because you decided to be you and not be a copy of me and you decided to go your own way. Well therefore you’re a bad person and you have destroyed the family. No because it was an unfair and unrealistic expectation from day one that you conform to something that was their choice and their decision. They got to make that choice. Why don’t you. And it’s it’s just such an unfair thing to put upon people.

[01:55:00] And they like it they like to put that on me though that it was my choice because I got baptized.

[01:55:05] And it’s you know what’s funny is I’m going to speak to your parents or step mom and dad right now. They didn’t get baptized as kids.

[01:55:19] Yeah I don’t really know. No it’s like yeah they don’t know they they were able for whatever reason to skirt that.

[01:55:27] But as kids there’s tremendous pressure to get baptized. And if nothing else I don’t care. What it is. How many things do you hold. So how old were you when you got baptized. Let me ask you.

[01:55:46] I was 16.

[01:55:47] Sixty. How many things do you hold a 16 year old to for the rest of their life.

[01:55:53] How many of the decisions that a person that is 16 years old they make are therefore reflective of an honest decision not undue influence where a person is only ever had really one choice but an honest and true decision to make for the rest of their lives you’re 16 you’re just learning how to drive you can’t get married you can’t drink alcohol.

[01:56:21] Jesus didn’t get baptized till he was 30 and he was the perfect son of God if you believe in the Bible so you know I’ve never understood how they can hold kids to decisions for the rest of their life.

[01:56:35] And do so so callously you know with just this cavalier attitude of well you made the decision you were you were 16. Come on. Like it’s it’s so it’s so unfair it was one thing that I remember in my own story with my brother who is shunned I remember asking my mom one time like how or why are we supposed to shun him for something he did when he was like 13 14 years old whatever it was like it never made sense to me that you could.

[01:57:13] That this kid who grew up with kind of only knowing one way or in a family where there was a lot of pressure or in every kingdom hall there’s pressure put on the children to conform to to their peer pressure to keep up with their friends. If you’re not baptized by a certain age people look down on you and talk about you and the Keenum all holidays they keep their kids away from you.

[01:57:39] How that was the main reason why I felt the pressure was the other younger kids in the hall.

[01:57:45] Yeah yeah. You see them doing it and you gotta keep up and if you don’t you know there’s gonna be consequences. So they’ll even tell you from the platform that you know they’ll talk about the age of accountability and how you know once basically you can think and reason for yourself if you don’t get baptized then God Jehovah is going to hold you responsible anyway so you might as well where I saw him like oh well so-and-so is only an unbaptized publisher just after his publisher you know to be a part of a higher class or something like he’s almost humor like you have yeah.

[01:58:31] Like once you get baptized now you’re a real person and you know I just don’t I don’t understand. I mean I do understand I can intellectualize it but emotionally it’s very hard for me to understand how you can have a baby. You’re it’s one of the most exciting moments in a person’s life I can look back at pictures of my own mom and dad you know holding me as a baby and they were so excited that they got a little baby book and they you know stamp your feet and they put it in the baby book or your fingerprint or whatever.

[01:59:08] All these things and then and then you know you’re excited for that baby’s first steps and you’re excited for all the moments that you’re going to have with that child and then because that child does not take one path that you tried to set them mine you throw them away like garbage.

[01:59:33] It’s me as a parent now I cannot fathom that really I don’t think there’s anything any of my children could do. Later on that would justify in my mind me treating them the way I’ve been treated.

[01:59:52] There’s there’s no there’s nothing.

[01:59:55] It’s just unfathomable. It really is. I really is. I think I mentioned it on on my I’ve mentioned it before somewhere in a podcast but I remember there was this. So hopefully I’m not boring people but there’s a scripture in proverbs. I think it is that that in Jehovah’s Witnesses the New World Translation The Scriptures essentially says to train up a boy in the way in which he should walk and he will not turn aside from it. Yes. And it sounds like here is the way in which you should walk. I’m going to train you to go down this prescribed path and you know you’re going to do that. But in other versions another translation’s it says to train up a boy in the way in which he is bent and he will travel that path. But the difference is it’s in the way in which he is a bit find out who that child is when you have a child you know you’re curious as to who that child is going to be what will they become what will their personality be like. It’s not oh look here’s a little mini me a little robot a little automaton let me program him and he will do this one thing and then if he doesn’t well then you know forget him. You know it’s just it’s just does.

[02:01:13] It’s so inhuman and it really wish that we’re true then everybody in everybody’s family would all be the exact same right. But they’re not. So they’re obviously born with their own personality as much as you try and makes. A person be who you want them to be.

[02:01:33] Or treating a child in to doing one specific thing while it’s up to them whether they’re going to do it or not and yeah whatever happened to the free will that Jehovah’s witnesses talk about Jehovah giving us it gave us free will and he lets us exercise it then who are you to come between me and Jehovah and my free will to decide whether or not good enough to to even say hi to in a store you know.

[02:02:07] Oh yeah.

[02:02:08] Oh my gosh to this I was I wasn’t there mentioned this earlier but I had one of the lessons I had gone to visit my parents.

[02:02:17] There was a man in his daughter whom I shared a hotel room with because my step mom couldn’t go with me to an assembly in southern Michigan so I went with them like just their family and share a room with them. And I’ve known them since birth.

[02:02:37] Like my real mother was friends with this man’s wife and he saw me walking up the path to my parents house and he was walking out of my parents house in him and his daughter who was like 12 literally look the other way the whole time I walked past them and then looked back like he put his hand up to make shade his face thinking I know you know me my whole life.

[02:03:07] You and I shared a hotel room together with your family and you’re going to play pretend like you’re looking at me is going to burn your face.

[02:03:17] How is this all a me. And I told my stepmom when I walked into the house. Can you believe that he did that to me and she’s like Well I think that these things are not supposed to end. You know she’s like What. Why that also is why I’m going to tell your dad and he’s going to say something to him.

[02:03:35] No. What is he conceded that guy Edwards couldn’t change anything. I don’t care. I’m just irritated that he had to go so far.

[02:03:43] As to block his face literally throwing a shoe that he literally threw shirt at you. Yes.

[02:03:53] So childish. You know it’s just it’s sad what the religion seems to devolve humans in to these petulant children who throw fits. Is this really sad.

[02:04:08] Well when I when I was thinking the whole time to is what did I do to you. No I did nothing to you. I am still that same person that you knew.

[02:04:20] For either what I did to leave what I did to be this fellowship had nothing to do with anybody else other than I made that decision.

[02:04:33] And yeah maybe I was disfellowshipped but how does that really affect you personally for you to think you can treat it that way.

[02:04:41] Well I mean that’s one of the things that that makes it Koltai you know. Yes you know.

[02:04:48] Well so let’s let’s in this on a more positive note.

[02:04:54] Yes. You’ve got this new life you’re free you’ve got three kids right. Yes yes. And they are adorable. I’ve seen them on Facebook. So you know what do you enjoy about this new life that you’ve got so far in India what are your dreams for the future what are you what are your hopes.

[02:05:20] My favorite thing I think about being in this new life not have I mean of course I say I’m affected by it otherwise I would be on your show you know. But in I just feel like I’m so happy that my kids don’t have to deal with that own. I will take on anything to prevent them from going through something and then to see them be as happy as they are like with my husband’s family or my mother or people in my mother’s family. And I’m creating bonds with those people and just in the back of my mind I feel like even if I’m not super close to that person or I’m not best friends with you know my husband’s sister or something.

[02:06:14] My kids get to build relations excuse me relationship with these people and their relationships not mine.

[02:06:23] I have no say over it. I have no idea. You can’t see that person anymore because you worry. You know we don’t like them anymore because you know they get to choose whom they love who they have a relationship with and build off of that. And just more people who love my kids and want to be in their lives. That really brings a lot of joy to me. Even just having relationships with my own kids because I don’t see them as little mini me or little mini Eric Seasonale they. Either my 6 month old has his own personality and just seeing them grow. It’s weird because I never wanted kids. I love me like that was like the first thing on my To Do list her was to have kids and then when I had I was just like oh my gosh in the womb my husband didn’t want to have more than two. I was a little upset. We ended up having three and I was like OK we can like that’s enough. We can’t necessarily afford to just keep having kids. You help sell an out. I love him. You know he Kim and I are so different now. We have a lot of things in common. We live very kind of separate lives like I said because I’m a stay at home mom and he is in the army. And then he’s also has a civilian job.

[02:07:56] He works a lot. And I’m so grateful for that. But I think that because we live very separate. When we come together it’s really good. We have a really good time. We share a lot of family time.

[02:08:11] And he actually might go on a nine month deployment next year to Kuwait. And.

[02:08:19] You know he came home and he’s like oh I didn’t want to make a decision without talking to you first. I mean I think a lot of times he doesn’t realize how like in-sync we are because he’s like well I just want to be sure like that if I did that you wouldn’t be mad at me. And I told him I said you signed up for the Army if they ask you to do that. You go do it because that’s what you signed up for. Like I’m supposed to support you 100 percent in whatever you do. And he’s like okay good cause like eyes like what an offer to do for sure. But I just want to make sure that we were okay. You know I never really had a relationship like that with another person so. I guess I just am loving our marriage and having our kids and we live very simple. You know we have a small house and I’m okay with that. You know I think being a Jehovah’s Witness they teach you to live very simple. And I kind of I I did like that about them you know to not be very materialistic. And we do live very simply. But I think we find a lot more joy in things not having to. I don’t know. We just we do.

[02:09:34] Don’t worry about a lot of other things that I feel like people with a lot of money can end up worrying about I guess it never leaves us trade. There are so many tradeoffs and low yes.

[02:09:50] And that’s as Atholl you know what. What you enjoy. It sounds like sounds like you’ve got really you’ve kind of got everything you want. You know you’re happy and I think that.

[02:10:03] You know in talking to my sister mom and dad they always say I hope you’re happy and I’m like Well I think you you know like I know you thought that it wouldn’t be possible or something or maybe I didn’t deserve to be happy but. So.

[02:10:21] Thanks. Now I think a lot of times a lot of times some of those comments honestly are reflective of their own unhappiness. Because it’s not it’s not. I don’t know. I can’t speak for all of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I can just say that I in enough congregations and pretty much everybody was depressed and unhappy. Though they claim to be differently. When you really get down to talking to them or you know someone many of them had to be medicated for depression and different things not you know there’s nothing wrong with that. But when you claim to be the happiest people on earth. And everyone is kind of deeply unhappy at their core and searching for this using this religion as an escape. It’s just it’s not happy or healthy and you know here you are you leave you actually find happiness and you know what you thought you should have always had inside the organization is what you know by and large most of all the people that I’ve been talking to they find on the outside of whatever that organization was. It’s it’s sad to say that you know bad things.

[02:11:43] Don’t happen to people on the outside. There’s been a lot of things that have been like Roadmaster that I have gone through with. You know worldly people on the outside it in scary situations but. You know it can happen to anybody and it goes both ways.

[02:12:06] Right. That’s right.

[02:12:09] Yeah there’s good and bad on both sides. You know people are just people ultimately. But it’s a lot. I think it’s a lot easier to find happiness in freedom though there is more responsibility with it than there is in captivity.

[02:12:28] Yes for sure.

[02:12:30] Portière Well is there anything that you wanted to say that I didn’t get a chance to ask you you know or we skipped over.

[02:12:44] Well not really I would like to put a shout out there to a couple of people.

[02:12:52] You know the girl Michel that I talked about she was disfellowshipped a couple years after me and her and I reconnected and are friends again were real you know. Oh yeah she is really cool person she is. I keep telling her she needs to listen to your show.

[02:13:09] I think it’s really triggering for her though because like I said like all a lot of her family is still and even her brother in law had become an elder and at a public event told her she needed to leave because she was making everyone uncomfortable in a public event. It was like a festival like out outdoor that’s the vote for the town and he told her she needed to leave because he she was making everyone uncomfortable.

[02:13:40] I’m like girl you’ve got to find an outlet.

[02:13:44] They think she struggles with stuff sometimes two things in front of a big thing for a lot of us is taking your power back.

[02:13:53] Yes. You know what.

[02:13:56] But look you know shout out to Michelle for getting out here being free.

[02:14:03] There’s that there’s a couple of young people that were in the Kingdom Hall that have had later found out have left them not necessarily good friends with them after the fact because we didn’t really have a lot in common in it other than we were in it in the same age type thing but it kind of gives me hope for them. You know because when you’re in it for a long time when you’re an adult and you leave it sucks cause you feel like oh I wasted a lot of my life. But at the same time what could I have done differently for you know my kids or my grandkids or whatever. And these young people that are leaving I feel like it. It warms my heart a little bit because I feel like they have a chance to make their generation and the next generation different.

[02:14:52] You know that’s beautiful. I am always encouraged when I see young people come out. I have a member of a forum and I see people come out come onto the forum who are like 12 13 years old who can already see that it’s it’s bullshit.

[02:15:18] You know and I’m like oh man I wish it was over 13 I could have seen that and wasted decades of my life in it.

[02:15:26] And it’s funny how I just feel like you know those witnesses all when there’s world peace then you know the end is coming. And if they only know that technology was going to make it so that people would join their cult in the end.

[02:15:45] They have not protected that after the true religion that the Internet is going to follow.

[02:15:50] Now there are some people right now who are who are trippin because North Korea and South Korea are are having peaceful relations or whatever and so you know Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that when there’s going to be this cry of peace and security that the end is going to come and you know the funny thing is about that cry of peace and security is that originally at one point they thought that it was going to be that basically the world was going to be in such a bad state of affairs that people would be crying out for peace and security because they were hoping to have it and then Armageddon would come and Jehovah would usher in this new system of peace and security.

[02:16:35] And

[02:16:35] then they they kind of backpedaled and said Well you know we don’t know maybe it’ll be a time where it appears that mankind is on the brink of peace and security. And you can’t play it both ways. Like in other words. So when North and South Korea looked like they were going to be at war just a year ago you know Jehovah’s Witnesses said oh look you know things are getting tense over there the INS going to come. Now things are going better over there and it’s like oh peace and security here.

[02:17:10] I’m like no crying wolf either way. Right right.

[02:17:14] It’s

[02:17:14] always coming tomorrow. It’s been coming to morrow for over a century. Yes. Even before that you know 1914 if we’re going to start the beginning of that century they thought that’s when the end was coming.

[02:17:28] So

[02:17:28] let me think so too with all the world wars at that time.

[02:17:33] Right. They’ve just they’ve constantly changed. Yeah. Yeah. It’s this doesn’t it doesn’t fit. But anyway.

[02:17:43] Was

[02:17:43] there anyone else that you wanted to shout out.

[02:17:48] Now it is said that Michelle and I you know were we’re friends again. Like I said I’m not super close to anybody else on there and I’ve made some really really good friends.

[02:17:58] Now

[02:17:59] here in Indianapolis there they’ll say so they’ll sit there and they’ll like suffering through listening to my story isn’t. I appreciate that. I really feel like I found a couple of really really good friends here now in Indianapolis so I don’t feel as well feels lonely. You know it’s one thing to have a significant other but they can’t always fill every role for you. You know you kind of have to have other friends too and for a long time I did it. But now I feel like I do.

[02:18:30] So coming up through a past the first demographer make some more friends.

[02:18:34] Heck

[02:18:34] yeah I’m going to her it.

[02:18:36] It’ll

[02:18:37] be fun.

[02:18:37] Oh

[02:18:38] there’s quite a few people there last year. So

[02:18:42] what does I mean by WhatsApp.

[02:18:46] I

[02:18:46] say you’ll have to send me the invite saying go oh oh you’re not I don’t know if you knew the people or whatever. Ok yeah I’ll definitely some that to you. Yeah yeah.

[02:18:56] Offer

[02:18:57] that to make a note to do that.

[02:19:04] Yeah I’ll do that. I mean they invite hundreds and hundreds of people. I mean not everyone can come and they’re inviting people from a large geographical area. I think last year there was like maybe 30 people or something like that. But yeah I’ll send you the invitation.

[02:19:28] As

[02:19:29] always I want to thank Sydnee for being so open about her life and I’m really glad that she’s free and her kids never have to grow up in a cult. My wife and I look forward hopefully to going up where she lives and hanging out again sometime. Now I mentioned at the end there and in the intro there was an apostate fest. So the weekend of September the 8th and 9th I’m going to release an episode comprised of a bunch of many interviews that I did while I was at that Apostafest. They were originally going to be a bonus at the end of this episode but there’s enough good stuff there that I’m just going to go ahead and make it an episode of its own through it. You’re going to get to meet a bunch of people get to know their lives a little bit get some idea of who might be in an apostrophe fest if you ever have the opportunity to attend one sometime. All right now for the big announcement I started a Facebook group. I know there’s a ton of Jehovah’s Witness Facebook groups but this one is for fans and guests of the podcast. I don’t want it just to be that typical J-dub group where people keep up with the latest happenings in the cult. I want this to be for anyone that listens to the show and left any cults or religion. I guess you don’t even technically have to be a listener but I don’t know how you’re going to find out about it otherwise. But my goal is to make this a fun and supportive group. It’s about things that these stories are about people’s lives their feelings their what they want out of life. Trying to find that after leaving a call things like that. So I’ve already started one thread where people who were guests of the show can raise their hand and you can meet them. There’s another tribe where you can introduce yourself and write some of your own story to meet and to share with others. And then on the weekend my plan is to do what I’m calling an SCS thread or self care Saturday or Sunday where people can share something that they’re doing over the weekend for themselves.

[02:21:38] It’s not easy when you leave a cult to learn self care our whole lives typically revolved around the whims really of whatever call or group we were in. So you know maybe if you still struggle with self care maybe I’ll see what some other people are doing for themselves and get some ideas for yourself. So my point is that the goal is to make this a support group for all of us. The goal of this podcast isn’t just to focus on former Jehovah’s Witnesses. My goal is to help us all see that across these different cults or groups. We aren’t alone not only within our group but even outside our group we’re not alone. There are other people in this world that are going through or have gone through the same types of things.

[02:22:25] So we can all learn from one another whether we left the witnesses the FLDS the Mennonites or any other group the name of the group is Shunned Podcast. Two words and it’s a closed group so you’ll have to sign up and get approved to join by making it closed. Only members can see who’s in it. Now with that said I can’t control who gets in and verify who every person is. I can however kick out troublemakers with the quickness and if you’re super worried about being discovered. My suggestion would be to maybe create an account with a pseudonym and join that way. So come find us on Facebook at the group called shunned podcast and let’s do something good. I’ve already got several of the guests that have been on the show in there. Some listeners that saw my post on Facebook about it and it’s already fun to be honest so the more the merrier. Speaking of doing good between this podcast and This JW Life where I told my story we now have over 40000 total individual downloads. I never would have believed when I started thisJ.W. life that it would have grown like this. There are still people to this day that find an instar episode one of thisJ.W. a life lesson through that go through the whole this Jadaliyya life episode list and then come join us on shunned. You know I get really cool e-mails from people that have been helped to wake up by the podcasts people that are out but now know that they aren’t alone that they aren’t bad in some way and people that now understand that you know jata relative or friend and honestly you know some of these other groups. The Mennonites LDS whatever you know it’s people understanding you know what somebody else in another group went through. And by doing so they understand better what they went through themselves. I want to go ahead and take a moment and personally thank Sarah Kristen David and Lindy for signing up at Patreon.com/shunned to help support the show financially. They signed up just in the month of August. You can do so for as little as a dollar. And it really helps. You know right now I’m in the middle of doing extra episodes and with extra episodes comes extra costs. If I get these new these other ones transcribed that costs money as well as well as it takes more time. So again that’s Patry on dot com slash shunned if you’re interested in helping to support the show. I’m actually kicking around some ideas. I’ll probably start a thread in the group the Facebook group once we get a good sampling of people in there. I have so many people that are reaching out to me that want to sell their stories. At the present rate of one episode per month. I really can’t keep up with demand so I’m considering going to maybe two a month and I’m kind of trying it right now. As you can see here in August and September but you know there’s a there’s a limit to what I can do and work like I need to to make ends meet or at least like I do in our cleaning business. If I could do something like this and help people and take some pressure off cleaning financially I could spend more time doing this. We’re looking at options ourselves as far as cutting down some cleaning because frankly we’re running ourselves into the ground anyway just in that part of our life. So there you go. There’s part of self care right. Don’t run yourself into the ground in whatever business you have. I know that you know this podcast helps people I know that not only listeners are Hultz but people who get to tell their stories it helps to process your own stuff to kind of sit it down and maybe be able to walk away from it a little bit to get some perspective on it if nothing else. And I want to help as many other stories as possible but the reality is that there is only so many hours in a day and so much energy I can give mentally and emotionally to the interviews and production.

[02:26:41] This past month I did try to do an interview every weekend and I enjoyed doing it but it does take something from you mentally and emotionally to just frankly just to interview anyone but you know some of our stories are are pretty harsh. And you know I’m not immune to the impacts of listening to these stories and digging them out and bringing them out. So you know I’d like to be able to do more and I’m working on that as a potential option. Again I’ll post in the Facebook group Shawn podcast and and we’ll kind of have a discussion about what people want. You know I don’t know if my listeners are are interested in more content or if what I’m doing right now is enough more than enough for people to try to keep up with. You know I want to know what you want and try to I. I want to do all these myself. So don’t don’t think you’re saving me from myself by saying you know 1 a month is good enough for me and I can barely keep up as it is. If that’s true that’s fine. But if you would like more of these let me know and it is my desire to help everybody but at the same time obviously I realize that I can’t.

[02:28:12] So anyway trying to strike that balance there is what I’m looking for. And so I’m open to input their if you’d like to leave a comment for Sydney. You can do so at show podcasts dot com on the episodes page. And in a new Facebook group I think I’m going to put a post up every time I release an episode and you can also leave comments there of support or questions or whatever. For the people who who did the podcast and then if they’re a member of the group they can actually respond to their you can also support the by leaving a five star review on iTunes. There’s a link right in the description that is probably available on your app where you can do so. You can get all the information you need in the description on my site or from your podcast app. Follow us on Twitter Instagram or YouTube. As Sean podcast one word I even just put out on in person a video a vodcast on YouTube that you might like. The song that Sydney chose to represent her journey is playing God by Perry more and there’s a link in the description to the song if you’d like to listen or watch the video. It’s my bad. I’ve been neglecting to mention people’s songs. Trying to remember what all the put in the intro was an outgrowth of these episodes so you can go to shun podcasts dot com and see the songs chosen by each participant. The music for the podcast is about Fair Voyeur and titled No hell yet and until next week love others do no harm and go be happy.