Episode Eighteen – Torah Bontrager – Escaping The Amish

Torah Bontrager – Growing Up Amish.mp3

[00:00:42] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we expose religions that you shunning as a tool to control people. I know that the show typically focuses on the lives of Jehovah’s Witnesses because that’s my community. But you know the reality is that as we’ve already seen through a few episodes with other groups other religions other cults you know shunning isn’t something that’s only used by Jehovah’s Witnesses. My goal from day one has been to expose groups that you shunning as a tool to control people. And I didn’t want people to feel alone not only in their own group. You know us as Jehovah’s Witnesses but I’ve always wanted to show that there are other groups out there that you know participate in some of the same things. There are a lot of similarities between all of these groups. So you know the group of shun Jehovah’s Witnesses we’re not alone. There are other groups out there that are doing the same thing.

[00:01:40] And I hope that the show is available to kind of highlight the similarities that we all have.

[00:01:48] I was fortunate enough recently I had someone by the name of Toora Bontrager reach out to me she’s a speaker the founder of the Amish Heritage Foundation. She’s been on MTV True Life that Tim Ferriss blog Forbes.com the Huffington Post and she contacted me and now you know I’m going to share her story on the Shunned podcast which is pretty cool. So you know I learned a lot through this interview. Torah has a Amish conference that is going to be coming up pretty soon. And you know part of the goal of that conference is for the Amish to take back their own stories so that they can sell it themselves. Not everything that you hear is necessarily accurate from a secular perspective. They have things like I didn’t know the Amish have their own language their language isn’t Swiss It’s not German it’s not necessarily Dutch or whatever it’s Amish. They have their own language that they’ve developed over time. There are things that are misconceptions that we have in a secular world that they want to correct. And so in this interview you’re going to learn about the Amish pray learn some new things. I know I did. You’re also going to learn about Torah. Because you know my podcast is about people telling their own stories their own personal stories. So I wasn’t just interested to learn more about the Amish. I wanted to learn about Torah. I wanted to meet Torah and to see what she’s been through in life and what her journey has been. So without further ado let’s go ahead to meet Sara My name’s Tor Bontrager.

[00:03:37] I was raised in the Amish church. I literally escaped in the middle of the night and I’m shunned by my family community people I grew up with.

[00:03:48] All right. So I normally ask people you know how did you come into the religion. Were you born into this. From what I understand that’s typical how it usually works.

[00:04:02] Yes. So I was I was born to be Amish all my my grandparents were Amish still were. I think they’re all they’ve all passed away now. So they were all inside the Amish church remain practicing members. All of my mother’s side of the family the immediate family my aunts uncles cousins all of them are still inside the church. Most of my aunts and uncles on my father’s side are all my aunts but three of my uncles on my father’s side.

[00:04:38] Oh I take that back.

[00:04:40] The the answer all practicing Irish in the church.

[00:04:44] Three of the uncles have left and the rest of the uncles are inside Luchador to get them on that side. And most of my cousins on my father’s side of the family as well. And here’s an interesting twist. Five years after I escaped my parents decided that it’s okay for them to resign from the Amish church but I’m still going to help and that I have had no contact with them for five years I believe and that took place. The last time that they contacted me I had to call the police to get them to stay away because they just wanted to proselytize and convert me to their religion. They’re not fundamentalist evangelical right wing fanatics. Which is a trend very alarming trend that’s going on within the Amish. For those of the four those who escape leave resign whichever one of those three is lots of them are coopted by the religious right and get funneled into the Born-Again system. Wow.

[00:05:51] BUSH Yeah. That is a unique twist. I mean you know that your parents would would be ok with leaving themselves but still Sean you would have expected that whatsoever.

[00:06:04] Yeah yeah. Usually you know everybody everybody’s parents are different. How accepting or tolerant they are if you were not like what your interaction is with your parents if you’re your child that leaves. That varies from from family to family and community to community. It’s sort of you know first of all depends on whether or not the community is on the more strict or liberal and within the range of Amish rule rules or if you are parents personally are a little bit more tolerant and whichever the case may be. Usually after 10 20 years the parents mellow out a little and you know they become a little warmer or more receptive.

[00:06:56] If they didn’t before my parents the exact opposite my father is just there. There’s no Oh no were even remotely positive to describe him.

[00:07:08] OK so then let’s let’s talk about policy talk about you know your parents your family growing up Amish you’ve mentioned that there are different types of communities or you know some are more strict some are a little more liberal for you being raised that way. How did it make you see the world. What was it like being raised.

[00:07:31] Where was your family or your community. More liberal more strict. And how did that make you see the world around you.

[00:07:39] I was born to a strict end of the range within the church and just for a little bit of context there is no central governing authority among the Amish to that says the rules that are universal for every Amish church. So it’s not like the Catholics the pope and the Vatican for example within the Amish they’re the only universal rules are no electricity no cars are motorized vehicles to for transportation.

[00:08:16] You have to drive with some buggy for personal transportation you can hire someone to drive you’re on in their car but you can’t drive yourself around in a car. And and no cameras.

[00:08:29] That seems to those three rules seem to be the only universal rules that apply to every single church. If if someone has electricity or someone has a car and drives themselves around in a car buyers wanting to get slummed and so forth.

[00:08:46] And if someone has a camera now you’re no longer Amish András.

[00:08:52] So I was born on the strip to an audience of of the hierarchy of rules. And that meant for example that I grew up in a community or was born into a community that did not allow bathrooms indoor bathrooms so I would write out to an outhouse to go to the bathroom and that rains son.

[00:09:18] It’s all snow. You went out to the outhouse. Of course you know during the winter you used the chamber pot. You know they think back in the Victorian days. I guess so.

[00:09:28] Well so you are actually use them.

[00:09:31] Yes I I that’s how I was. That was the community I was born into the church type of church I was born into. And then when I was around age.

[00:09:43] Oh and we also didn’t we we didn’t have running hot water. We did have running cold water and we didn’t have gas stoves for example everything was cooked on a wood burning stove or kerosene or something a little Burner’s that were left with kerosene.

[00:10:04] So then when I was around 10 years old my parents moved to a more modern community and in terms of the range once again of the different rules it was towards the very modern liberal end of the Amish church and that meant we now had indoor bathrooms we had running hot water.

[00:10:25] We had propane powered stoves propane gas stoves and refrigerators.

[00:10:33] A big huge deal is I oh my god we have a refrigerator. I don’t know how how to imagine or think about this but that’s a big deal to jump from no fridges to fridges because especially for a big family when you have a family of minimum six kids on average to eat up to 14 which is not unusual you’re having to cook food grow food preserve food all. I mean everything revolves around putting food on the table or somehow preserving it. And once you have a fridge now you can you can prepare more because you can freeze it. Certain things can be frozen that you would not be able to preserve. SNOW Absolutely.

[00:11:27] So so your diet changes and along with that also more I’ve noticed looking back. We start eating more toxic food and growing less getting a little lazier for some reason. So that’s one of the negatives.

[00:11:45] I would say of everything gets easier and then you know it’s easy to pick out processed things and stuff like that.

[00:11:52] Yeah yeah. Lots of processed stuff which is not good.

[00:11:56] And then the other thing that was unusual about that immunity was that we were also allowed to have bikes which which meant that I would be using a bite to go everywhere instead of having to get checked the horse and buggy and we kids could bike to school and we could bike to go up to the Amish neighbors thing get some milk because I did grow up on a farm. And so we got all or not from our Amish neighbors and we also had phones in the barn. So God was fine with phones in the barn and can have him in the house if they were in a house we go to hell.

[00:12:37] So you’re walking the line there laughter. So let me ask you so so as as a child growing up in the more strict environment how what was your feeling. I mean were you happy in that environment. Because it’s all that you knew or did you feel deprived you know what was what was family life like when you were in the strict environment and then compare and contrast that with how it became once you got more modern. How did you feel personally.

[00:13:13] Well personally I was very happy for the more modern conveniences. Of course what you wouldn’t want running hot water and indoor bathrooms and fridges and stoves that didn’t reek of kerosene views.

[00:13:29] Is that something though that you even knew existed when you were in the stricter environment.

[00:13:35] I knew about acid that’s a very good question.

[00:13:39] You know why and if you felt deprived you know because if you don’t know that it exists then it’s hard to feel deprived because it’s just normal you know of course Natalie.

[00:13:47] Yes. No I didn’t. I did feel deprived because when I was around three years old between 3 and 4 around that age for a brief period of time my parents lived on an English farmers in an English farmer’s house and English by the way is anybody who is not Amish doesn’t matter be Chinese. You’re Afrikan your Asian you’re you know European whatever your English.

[00:14:19] You’re not my accents. I can understand how that would be so.

[00:14:26] So my father for a brief period of time was working for an English farmer and we rented their little house on the farm that was attached to the main farm and that was a temporary rental until my father bought our own house because we we’ve moved from one community to a neighboring state. So it was like a temporary fix until my parents got their own house. So during that period of time between 3 and 4 years old around the age I was living in a house with electricity and hot water running hot water bathroom and fridge and stove and all that kind of stuff. Of course I was too young to appreciate a gas or electric stove versus not budget. I understand what was going on that this is different from from our Amish House or the arm shows this hour.

[00:15:30] And the thing that I remember the most. Now that you’re making me go back into your memory land is the carpet the rug the slaughterhouse carpet it that is what I remember that sticks out to me the most that happened that and being in the tub in the bath bathtub with the running hot water. But really the carpet sticks out to me the most. And I know why. Because when we moved to our own house we were not allowed to have have carpets we can have black kitchen area little tiny rugs or whatever. But most of our floors were exposed. And it would get cold in the winter since 40 below zero Wisconsin cold back in the days before climate change to cover those floors were freezing any kids grew up running around barefoot during the summer.

[00:16:26] And you know during the winter as you’re on these cold floors and you don’t have central heating and the wood burning heat is not very efficient. It doesn’t circulate very well. So I was always cool.

[00:16:40] Yes. Sounds like you got a taste of the modernity and then went back words to a more austere environments where you got your Amish home.

[00:16:53] Exactly yes. And also the other thing in terms of wondering if if I knew I was deprived or felt deprived was yes because once again we did not live in physical Commines completely physically isolated from the rest of the world. We would see things in the grocery stores in town.

[00:17:17] We’d go to a hardware store you’d see appliances things like that. And we also then went on long trips or shirts that were too far away for a horse and buggy to travel. Know we would go in a nice heated car or add. And the difference was very clear in my mind. There was that contrast of what we were allowed weren’t allowed and how much nicer the outside was.

[00:17:49] So I know you try to think about things in terms of what I’ve experienced and I know you know as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses growing up we weren’t allowed to celebrate birthdays or Christmas or anything. And you know for us we would see other kids getting gifts for their birthday or having a party or whatever for Christmas. You know all of the celebration. And so you know that was something that we would look at and kind of feel left out of.

[00:18:19] And you know so I can I think I can understand on a level what you’re talking about it has to be hard. Do you think that are most kids in that environment aware of you know the world and feeling kind of left out. Or do you feel like sometimes you would feel left out of course but we would justify it. Like well you know but we’re doing it right. And that’s and they’re doing it wrong. So it kind of a similar thing in your situation.

[00:18:52] So in my eyes you know I can’t speak for for all the other kids her I don’t know if you know these are stories that circulated. Yeah right.

[00:19:03] Well I know for for all the kids to escape or leaper resigned yesterday at some point felt that and I do know that there are a lot of kids especially once you you hit adolescence teens that kind of age where we’re not happy. And you see that more among the boys than the girls because the boys are more exposed to the outside especially if they don’t grow up on farms. So over the course of my lifetime the Amish have become far less agrarian.

[00:19:41] They had to give up their farms because they can’t compete with big agriculture and they had to move to more construction work for example or in the more the most modern communities that they’ll work in factories. The borders will for example modern factories furniture Arby’s whatever the case may be. And so they get exposed to that as the case for the boys to be in that environment it’s not okay it’s wrong if the girls aren’t in the environment. So you will see that I saw that where there was a lot more signs of no signs of of dissatisfaction among the boys mom the girls. There is a significant number as well but it’s harder to detect because there’s this element of you don’t know who you can trust especially if you’re a girl because women are second class citizens. We are by virtue of being born female. We have no rights. We are literally required to obey our husband as part of the marriage vows and to actually follow through on that. It’s not just lip service. So we have no rights. We’re not allowed to even consider going against the rules whereas the boys it tends to it’s a little bit more like well they have to do this in order to make a living. Oh well you know they have to be in this environment to make a living. So you know yeah I mean they’ll be using electric power tools on the worksite even though it’s not allowed it in the home. And women are just don’t have that exposure.

[00:21:27] And then you also don’t know who you can trust to talk to if you’re unhappy about something. That was my message in my situation particularly was that I didn’t know where I could trust. I had to just keep everything inside of pretend to be the perfect good girl and toe the party line. And that was really my best shot at making a successful escape. When I did make the attack.

[00:21:57] Okay so.

[00:21:58] So you mention the not knowing who you can trust is what’s is what would be the repercussions if you told the wrong person how you felt. Is this what is the situation.

[00:22:14] So you know I interviewed someone who is a former Mennonite.

[00:22:21] And he said that or a nonpracticing Mennonite. And he said he said that he and their their culture they were.

[00:22:35] You know if somebody found out something about you it was literally brought up before the congregation at times and everyone kind of decided your fate. Is this a similar situation with the Amish if you are a baptized member of the church.

[00:22:52] Yes. And you break the rules or do something say something or do something that is frowned upon.

[00:23:01] Yes. Then if someone finds out about it and hasn’t had a problem with it and they report it to the bishop or wherever they bring it up in their church members only meetings. And you have to confess and ask forgiveness.

[00:23:16] And in the worst case you know the Senate and the Sinner error or whatever it is considered to be really great then you’re excommunicated for six weeks.

[00:23:28] And and that’s actually the the the highest sentence you can get punishment or punishment being excommunicated for six weeks and then you know theoretically you know you’re no longer breaking the rules and you’re back in good standing after six weeks. But in the case of someone like me was never baptized in the church. I can’t be commanded to go and confess before the congregation.

[00:24:00] You’ve got to you’ve got a little extra layer of protection there a little buffer.

[00:24:04] Not really. Oh really depends on the family. So I’ll give I’ll tell you what happens when when when you tell the wrong person that you want to leave and that person turns out not to be trusted. That happened with with the girl I thought was my friend. So I two friends in when I was a teen and that modern more liberal community. And I told her name’s Rosanna and I think she’s still I mean if she if you were to find her track down she by the way got married and she and her husband after marriage resigned from the church. So she was very unhappy as a teenager. We both were. I thought that I could trust her as she she. She was unhappy about it to me and she was talking about wanting to leave. And I would talk to her about my unhappiness. She was the only one I talked to and thought of course that I could trust. Well she I don’t know what happened exactly except that something happened.

[00:25:16] Maybe she got caught her.

[00:25:20] Her parents kind of she got outed by somebody for expressing something about wanting to leave.

[00:25:26] And she ratted me out like Asher of herself. Yes.

[00:25:33] And I was working at her parent’s bakery that summer. So I think I was maybe 13 or 14 I can’t remember how old I was but I was working at her parents bakery that summer.

[00:25:45] I come home one night bike home from work in the bakery and I walk in to my room and it is ransacked. It’s like somebody from the Gestapo was rifling through everything the drawers were rifled through the bedspread was messed up and the bed was you know sort of you know the mattress was shaken up or whatever like moved everything. I looked and all that my secret places and all my contraband had been confiscated. And I go back downstairs is like my mother didn’t say anything to me when I had first walked in. This was sort of high. I knew something was wrong but I didn’t know this was what had happened. And my father comes in and that night like I just it was hell.

[00:26:43] It was interrogation like I don’t know how how to describe what happened except that it was as if I had been living in Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia and some some you know police or authority officers somebody not invade you know broke into my room and stole all my contraband and and took me in to this room and interrogated me and psychologically tortured me.

[00:27:24] Using you know tell me I’m going to hell. Why did you do this. Tell me all of this and what else have you here. I was sitting at the table and and all the rest of the kids have been dismissed and sent in to their rooms. And it was just me and my parents my father my mother sitting there and my ex parents there. I can’t call them my parents anymore at all ever really. And so they’re sitting there and it was just here was a pile of things on my father like dumps all all the stuff that he confiscated everything he thought was breaking the rules or wanted to see anyway like my diary. There was a dress that to this day I don’t know why he grabbed the dress that I had made but. Because it followed all the rules of it. But that’s another story.

[00:28:18] It was like basic. I refuse to wear it because as an actor like protest against the hypocrisy of the rules.

[00:28:28] They got everything and dumped on the table. And so your contraband consisted of basically a diary manageress diary drafts a radio that I had bought on the down low snitch like body on the slide. Yeah. And and yeah like any letters from from one of my friends in a different state that she she and I wrote these letters and you know she wasn’t happy either.

[00:29:00] But just how is it so sad. Yeah. That’s all it takes to be considered you know quote contraband he felt like something you know how this is so so tough to hear that it takes so little to create such a massive wave of essentially feels like persecution towards you is persecution.

[00:29:23] That’s why you like these words like Nazi Germany and the Gestapo and an interrogation and torture because that is what it was. I’m a teenager 13 14 years old and.

[00:29:36] And I’m not allowed like I’m in an oppressive a situation you know in an oppressive institution that does not allow me to have any rights simply because I was born a female and that does not allow me to express myself creatively and that does not allow me to learn does not allow me to to question or think like all those things are considered sin and such sins so bad that you’re going to go to hell and you die. You’re lucky if you go to heaven. Let’s just hope that we get to heaven.

[00:30:12] So you use.

[00:30:15] You mentioned there something about not being able to express yourself creatively. Is that so. From what I understand the the ban on cameras is because all glory goes to God you shouldn’t be taking any for yourself. So does that. I don’t know if that’s accurate or not but does that also apply then to other creative endeavors as far as I don’t know.

[00:30:38] Can you can paint or draw portraits or something.

[00:30:43] Yes. So the reason that we’re not allowed to have cameras is because of the tent. One of the Ten Commandments thou shalt not have any graven images before me. That’s why in the in the army because pictures photos of ourselves are considered idols you know graven image.

[00:31:01] So it is about giving yeah taking away detracting from the glory of God because some of that might go to you.

[00:31:08] Well no no that’s not them. That’s a different mindset. OK. Yeah. So this is considered worshipping idols like it would be like creating a statue and worshipping a statue and calling that God is that it is having photos of oneself. Is that OK.

[00:31:32] And then apply also to I mean just because you mention the creative endeavors it makes me think you know obviously you mention like making a dress and how it had to be to certain standards.

[00:31:48] Yes. So yes. So let’s talk about the dress for example that we’re not allowed to have bright colors depending on. Once again this specific church sure in the stricter the church the darker the clothes and the more modern and they will have light greens and blues and sometimes red.

[00:32:14] You don’t see that quite as often.

[00:32:16] But some Amish churches do a lot of that color and some may be tan you know version of brown like.

[00:32:24] So you can tell by the style of dress and the color of the clothes exactly what kind of community that an Amish person comes from. How strict how how modern and in terms of the dresses so we so all our own clothes you know we don’t go. There’s no such concept is going to a store and buying our clothes. And every community has its rules. As in terms of how long the dress has to be how many inches off the floor of girls or a woman’s dress has to be literally hominy and just like six inches or inches whatever and it can’t be even a quarter inch off.

[00:33:10] That’s very very strict.

[00:33:12] So the Southern I’m assuming is there any creative expression. Are you allowed to be a painter or sing songs that aren’t.

[00:33:22] Maybe skirt you know biblical songs or whatever like.

[00:33:27] So it depends again from community to community the church and the family itself. Right. And in general your. Well first of all you’re not allowed any musical instruments. I grew up without any musical instruments except the harmonica and that was only in the INS in the more strict community. Some of the stricter communities allow harmonicas but the more modern you get it’s almost as if well to make up for allowing other nice things we have to ban something else to make a backup. So from age 10 onward we were not so close that harmonicas any more respect get rid of them. That said my parents harmonicas stayed in their little drawer in their Berro in their bedroom. They never got rid of it.

[00:34:22] They

[00:34:22] kept it they weren’t allowed they didn’t play it but they didn’t throw it away which was one of the hypocritical things that I was protested against I was unhappy but it’s like okay so you’re stealing my dress but you have a harmonica. My dress is per code. It’s up to date for code but you’re but if you burn it in yes that’s what happens after the long hours and hours of torture and screaming and you’re going to go to hell. My father takes all of the stuff throws it scoops everything up off the table throws it into a plastic garbage bag and takes it outside grabs a gasoline not kerosene gasoline and dumps it in a big bong bonfire and lights it up and makes me watch it watch it. You know everything got burned. All the letters my journal which I was going to print once I escaped like I knew I would want to someday go back in and read those things and all get burned versus I’m sorry that’s that’s so remote is such an emotionally abusive situation there.

[00:35:38] So you know I basically say you know here’s your shame. Watch it burn. You know this is a.

[00:35:44] Yeah. And in terms of oh so I want to answer that. The thing about painting like for example painting was allowed and that’s an interesting question because when I was around 14 I actually learned how to oil paint paint with oils and that community in the more strict ones. That was not allowed but in the more modern Gwatney I’ll throw the harmonicas.

[00:36:11] But but now you’re allowed oil royalty and arbitrary.

[00:36:18] So I didn’t learn how to do that. When I was 14 and that was the one thing that helped me make it through until I escaped. It was the only creative outlet I had. I would sit down and I would I would express myself like I could just get lost in a painting it was like the sort of zen moment it was the only time that I could just exit you know exit from remove myself from all my problems and unhappiness and all of that.

[00:36:52] So you had mentioned earlier you know the difference between someone who was baptized and someone who had never gotten baptized.

[00:37:01] It sounds like from early on you kind of knew that this wasn’t for you and that you didn’t want to get baptized. Is that accurate.

[00:37:13] Yes absolutely yes. So I was I believe. Okay let me start over I’m trying to think of my age as here.

[00:37:24] I was 11 when I made the conscious decision to escape. That was when I realized that my dreams were not compatible with the Amish church. I could not ever fulfill my dreams and hopes if I stayed inside the church. And I also realized at that point that I had always been thinking these things when I was a little kid. I had this very vivid imagination.

[00:37:54] I would read all the books I could get a hold of. So I didn’t learn English until I was six years old and went to school as it and I couldn’t wait to read. I couldn’t wait to go to school so I could read. So I wouldn’t have to depend on my mother for bedtime stories. And as soon as I got into school I learned my ABC is as brutal as possible and I was reading several grades ahead.

[00:38:20] And that was how I learned more. It was the only access I had to the outside world other than observing as is it any sort of an when we go to school or go to town or whatever you know like we we observed it as an outsider and we’re in the world but we’re still not part of the world. But the real exposure the real sort of like what is life like inside those English houses.

[00:38:54] You know I didn’t have that much access other than you know between age 3 and 4. So I got that glimpse through reading books. And those were the characters and places that I read about the things that I learned through the books. That was what I dreamed of becoming and doing. And I was 8 years old for example when I watched the planes go by overhead and wonder what were the people doing inside the planes are they going to China or to one of those places I’ve read about in the books. Things like that. And then at age 11 realized that I would never be able to fulfill my dreams and that also as a woman I had no voice. There’s never ever have a voice.

[00:39:47] So that brings us to questions and I guess the first movie is there pressure to get baptized by a certain age. Yes.

[00:39:58] So there it is again it depends on the community the family the church or whatever generally from society some kids get baptize at age 17 18 others don’t get baptized until later when they want to get marriage. Inside the church they have to get baptized first if they aren’t already. So if you’re from a war in a bigger community with lots of teenagers and and you have peer support to break the rules a lot of them wait until they’re older to get baptized. But in my case specifically because I had tried to escape once I had a failed first attempt after that my mother was on my case night and day to get baptized I was only 15 at that time. And in that community they were trying to push the kids into getting baptized earlier because there’s this concept here. Well if a kid is unhappy or dissatisfied let’s pressure him less you know pressured him into getting baptized because then that will you know now your fate is sealed.

[00:41:12] Now you have vowed to remain a practicing Amish person for the rest of your life until your death. So now we can relax and not have to worry that you’re going to leave. And my mother tried to push me into getting baptized earlier and I knew there no way that I could get baptized or it would cut off certain assets. I would have later on life for the work that I’m doing now for example I would not be able to do business with other practicing members of the church if I were baptized.

[00:41:52] Ok that makes sense. Get get a man get them roped in early. Yeah so there’s that pressure you know behind that person.

[00:42:02] Why do you think they allow the access to books. It’s that it’s really strikes me as a as a chink in the armor. It seems like a weak spot to allow.

[00:42:15] If you if you learn English and then you can start reading other things it seems like it kind of fosters a desire for something else. And I’m surprised they allow that. Is there. You know. Has that ever been an issue.

[00:42:34] Yes. So that once again is something that kind of access you have depends on the community once you get an armed of specific family as well.

[00:42:45] And for contex the Amish didn’t used to send their kids to school until the 1972 Supreme Court ruling Wisconsinvs. Yoder allowed Amish parents to remove their children from public schools and for the Amish who create their own schools and their own curriculum with zero oversight.

[00:43:08] And my mother for example grew up going to public school. She has a public school education. And what I learned many years later was that my mother’s side of the family are actually very pro education and they love learning. If they were not members of the Amish church they would be your typical sort of like professors and academic types and which is a great loss to the world that we’re deprived of. Yes. Oh absolutely. And so my mother because she grew up with that education and she would talk to me especially when I was younger about her teacherMrs. Norman designed the oldies of of of the kids. So I so my mother was very very much for all her other faults and terrible things about her. One thing she did write was educate me and she introduced me to all the books that she had read as a child and in public school. So there I don’t think that she made the connection because she had exposure to all those books she was exposed. All those books you expose a public school education she had an English teacher. And she still remain you know a good girl inside the Amish church so I don’t it never occurred to her that her daughter will depart from that.

[00:44:44] Well that’s fascinating. Yes. You mention departing from that year. That takes me back to you said so you made an attempt around 15 to escape. Yes. Can you.

[00:45:00] Can you take us through what that is like. What does it take for someone like me. I don’t know what does it take to escape. And then what is it like when that escape. What’s it feel like it sounds seems like it would be as such a a heavy burden for it not to work out for you.

[00:45:24] Yeah it was it was just. I don’t have the words like the worst kind of feeling.

[00:45:33] You know it’s imagine being growing up where your own by somebody like a slave for example or maybe even in modern day there. There’s the human trafficking that goes on like trade. You know this isn’t just something from other areas. So imagine that sort of situation. And when you try to escape and you get stopped. I mean what what is your what is going to happen to you. Of course Leahy is the worst feeling. And that’s not. I don’t even have words for it. Just like if I painted it it would be black and dark clouds and heavy stuff on just a blank look on a square like sort of Kalat like where it’s just there’s no color on there except black and variations of black you know I can I can totally understand I mean it just sounds so depressing.

[00:46:37] So what was the attempt. Can you describe what happened.

[00:46:41] Yes so I was in a when when I had you think here that shortly after I turned 15 I made a phone call to late at night. It was run well in the evening around 7:00p.m. or so in the evening. I made a phone call to one of the non Amish taxi drivers. So every Amish community has not Amish drivers to drive them around. If they can’t do that to me with horse and buggy so I called one of the substitute taxi drivers and ask her if she could take me to Holland the next morning early the next morning to catch a Greyhound bus. And this person was. I didn’t know if I could trust her or not which is why I didn’t make a phone call until just the night before and she said Oh my God I wish you would have called a little bit earlier. I could have totally taken you down if. But I have to take my kids to school in the morning and I can’t make other arrangements it’s too late to make any other arrangements so I was like okay don’t worry about it I’ll find someone else. You know no big deal. And of course there’s no one else to call.

[00:48:07] I go to bed that night. Everybody’s in bed that night. It’s 10:00 around 10:00 or a little bit late or something like that. All of a sudden I hear a vehicle pull up in the drive and you are not. You always turn on light. Knock on the door downstairs and I drop my window open because my room was right there above the drive.

[00:48:29] And I heard my father’s voice I didn’t hear what was being said but I was like oh my god this is that lady and I of course thought she had come wrap me out because that’s the mind that you have is as a kid you think everybody else knows your rules too and that that may have been breaking the rules or like you’re 15 years old. Are you going to Holland on your own and. And I just went back crawl back into bed and try to like train. No please God don’t let this be you.

[00:49:07] You know what I think it is. Blah blah blah blah blah. You know like you it was like trying to just blurt out everything and make the world stop and try to go back in time and make it never have happened that I made that call.

[00:49:22] And like several you know ten minutes later something I hear the slow stumps stone stones start of the steps of stairs.

[00:49:33] And I my room with the down the corner around it’s sort of an L shaped hallway and I’m praying that okay the steps are gonna stop. You know this is just my father wanting something with one of my brothers or sisters. No. It keeps on coming down. Stop stop stop. And that night I got no sleep. My father made me stay up all night. Talk about sleep deprivation and all sorts of other kinds of interrogation techniques to try to break you.

[00:50:11] Where were you going. Like a yo. Why did and why are you going to leave. Or where we gonna go.

[00:50:17] You tell me everything. And in that moment it was I knew that I could either confess everything and pretend to be the perfect good girl.

[00:50:31] From then on to try to make my second attempt successful so they would think that I had reformed and I was now no longer have any thoughts of leaving or I could just be outright you know F you and win it. When you’re that in in in their face where you’re just play f you like. You’re not going to tell me what to do anymore. I mean if you go to that extreme. What are they going to do. You can’t be in the middle it had to be one extreme or the other. The perfect good girl who’s completely totally fully reformed or the perfect like f you all to hell. And I chose the good girl route because I wanted my parents to know that I left because something was very very wrong. I laugh because there is some serious shit that’s going on inside the church. There are major issues in the church and in our home that is not right.

[00:51:41] The abuses I suffered endured the physical violence and verbal violence and in the name of the discipline and the psychological and brainwashing religious brainwashing those things. Not to mention a sexual assault that runs rampant in the church. Those are wrong things and you cannot cannot claim to be the perfect people and the godly people when you’re aligned that shit can happen.

[00:52:07] And that’s true. Yeah. And then there was a reason for me to leave. A valid reason that I could not be part of the hypocrisy. And it wasn’t just a rebellious teenage act. I have thought these things through and I had already read the Bible from cover to cover each guy and you know figured out that this is not the way to live if you actually believe Jesus basic teachings of being kind and compassionate if you choose to believe that’s what he actually said. You know but that’s how I interpreted it at that age and so yeah. So I thought okay well this is going to having this long term view. This being the good girl will be the only way to try to get the point across. AKRIGHT escape. So this is going to come as a complete and utter surprise once they do make my second attempt. And you know surely at that point they can think about well this wasn’t just some rebellious teenager or like what happened. It would make them change and wake up which it didn’t. So in retrospect I wish I just said fuck you all to hell.

[00:53:22] What would have happened then.

[00:53:24] What is so I was trying to play that went out of my head when you said it. You know you give them the big fuck you. What do they do they kick you out do that. What would they do to you or with you at that point if you’re seen as just unruly an unmanageable uncontrollable. What do they do.

[00:53:44] Well I would have wanted to it would have loved it if they kicked me out. I would watch it. You know like or they would have said you no you can’t be here any more. In fact I actually would have it when have happened that I really have been there over just said fuck you I’m leaving right tonight anyway. Like I just packed up and left that night.

[00:54:05] And that’s an option. So you could have done that.

[00:54:08] Well it’s not an option that they would have given me. It’s an option I would have taken I would have said fuck you and your like you’re you’re not standing in the way I’m packing up my shit right now and I will call the police on you if you try to stop me. Do they you man. I take that back a little bit. I didn’t even know i could call the police. Now this is what I want kids to know that you can’t call the police about these things. Not that they would have helped. That’s another whole story.

[00:54:38] There’s there’s a moment in another episode I did with a lady who escaped the Felda escort and I just this just really reminds me of something she said.

[00:54:48] There was a moment where she realized that you know the power they had was the power she gave them. To an extent. And that there are laws in the United States. And you know maybe she couldn’t call the local police because they were pretty much owned by the LDS but she could call the state troopers or whatever. And and there were people out there that legally could do something.

[00:55:15] Well yeah but I would just like to add my you know commentary to that is I don’t want listeners to to buy into it that the power they had as the power we give them we children don’t have that awareness at least we only saw it doesn’t mean she was an adult.

[00:55:36] OK. OK. Right right. No I understand technically you know of course they took the power from us. They never gave us anything to begin with.

[00:55:45] Yeah right. And they keep us repressing oppressed and ignorant and all of that and they says that everything on the outside is evil and bad and they do own the police as well they’re in cahoots with the police. If any Amish kid gets into trouble with the law like this agreement is that the police report it to the bishop and the bishop. We handle our own crimes which they don’t.

[00:56:07] I mean really so they have the police in their pocket as well. Wow.

[00:56:13] Child care services will not show up if they get a call from an Amish child and that’s completely against the law that’s against federal and state laws.

[00:56:24] I mean that’s that’s the orchestra that we’re addressing through the Amish Heritage Foundation and the conference in September. And we’ll be talking about you know here the issues.

[00:56:37] This is just a little bit of an aside but you mentioned you know how kind. Let’s say in the Bible Jesus was you know kind of the opposite of the culture and environment. You felt that you were in do and again this may of course vary over groups or whatever but. Do Amish consider themselves Christians yes.

[00:57:03] So the Amish are a form of Protestant Christianity. It’s their own interpretation. So we grew up with with you know the old and new testament and we were told to read it but not analyze it.

[00:57:24] Don’t think too hard right.

[00:57:26] Exactly. And to make it at another interesting level to that.

[00:57:32] And a strict very strict communities they don’t allow you to read English. And in the super super strict some offshoots of the Army source and trigger Amish for example is one of them where you’re not even allowed to have read the Bible in English and the Bible that you are supposed to read is in German which is not Amish. I mean I can read German. I don’t understand German or very little of it on it so it’s very similar to the situation with the Catholic Church. Way back when when they had mass in Latin and and the peasants or the illiterate couldn’t understand what was going on and they were told this is what the Bible says when it didn’t stay that way.

[00:58:21] So you have now made an attempt to escape. You made an Onix unsuccessful attempt and you have gotten through. No you’re sitting at the table or sitting there with your dad all night talking about this. How do you transition from I’m leaving to being that good girl and how do you how did you work that out so where you essentially got their trust so that if you didn’t make a second it sounds you could not only kind of make a points and that you know hear the good girl left but also be more successful in that attempt so that all night sleep deprivation take place in my room and not at the table the table scene.

[00:59:22] Right right here.

[00:59:23] You know when I got ransacked and almost confiscated my diary a horrible sin of sense.

[00:59:34] So yes.

[00:59:35] So what happens in the early morning hours. I’m up all night. I’m being forced to stay awake all night. I’m not allowed to fall asleep all night long.

[00:59:46] And in the morning one of the taxi drivers comes along to pick up my my mother my father. Me and a couple elders of the community and we go off to a neighboring church as bishop.

[01:00:04] So not the Bishop of our community but some other neighboring communities Bishop who runs there who is a therapist to troubled teens Amish teens. And that’s another bullshit joke beyond jokes. There’s no such thing as mental health services in the Amish.

[01:00:23] There’s a little bit more now than there used to be over 20 years ago when I had to go see this bishop. And also I just have to qualify and say that the mental health services that are provided is only invited in in the context of you must remain. This is why you should stay inside the church.

[01:00:49] It’s of course administered by anyone who without a training or not so.

[01:00:56] So this bishop self-proclaimed therapist to troubled teens sits me down and will tell me what happened and why did you want to leave Ben. Blah blah blah you know he like all pompous and thinks he’s like really you know something. And.

[01:01:17] That’s like right through.

[01:01:21] I knew exactly what I needed to do. How exactly how I needed to behave. What answers I needed to give him in order to be pronounced reformed and cured. And and I had to make it into a game in order to not go insane and lose it. So I just had this running commentary in my head while he’s asking these questions and you and I created this little competition for myself.

[01:01:54] I wonder how quickly I can get him to say that okay. She’s she’s completely you know she’s cured she’s reformed no more therapy sessions and I believe I did it in two sessions.

[01:02:11] Wow. Not a very good therapist. He’s not very discerning.

[01:02:19] Or damn good. That’s right. You played him.

[01:02:29] And of course having that secret victory soothe you know the pain a little bit. You know it’s just this failed attack. And I was put under Amish house arrest which means I was never allowed to do anything by myself be alone without adult supervision and baptized adults are numbers in the home. I could not be alone with my friends. I had to quit my job at the bakery and was never allowed to even go back up the road to the Amish farmers to pick up milk.

[01:03:10] Nothing I had to always be either with my mother my father or some other church mother.

[01:03:17] Wow is there a time limit on that.

[01:03:21] The time limit was nine months later when I made my second and then successful escape.

[01:03:28] So that would have been what. And so maybe you got so you know assuming you didn’t know Mangham other terms. Would that have just been until maybe you got baptized.

[01:03:40] Yes. All this time there was a serious heavy lobbying. My mother used the whole well you know you’re saying she manipulated that like it. Well you’re now late this reformed or whatever like you agree to abide by the rules and and see the error of your ways and blah blah blah. Now you know you need to get baptized. And it was all like yeah like it is she would not let it go let up on it. And and it was got to the point where as I could not maintain my good girl image if I did not get baptized like I had to escape before the next class for 4 4 kids started to get baptized and that was all. So so from September through me that was a period in which my mother was just lobbying and pressuring me to get baptized join the baptism class in the spring or in the summer like the next one that would start a that must have been some intense pressure.

[01:04:52] I can only imagine because you have a desperate mother who is really trying to corral her child and you on the other hand are so intent on not being in a you know not living that life. So how did that progressed as you went on. So I mean I guess you knew you had x amount of time if you wanted to make another attempt. How do you plan that out.

[01:05:20] And how did you end up executing that so my plan was so so the the plan was to leave via the Luddington Park ferries. So in Michigan that was the community we lived in at the time was located near Lake Michigan Luddington which had a car ferry service that took you across to Wisconsin. And I had one of my uncles who had left the church. One of my paternal uncles enoughs Bontrager is his name. Remember that name because we’re going gonna get back to it. He had a breach. I knew that he was on that side and that I could call him to pick me up. Once I got to that side and I could bite to Whitington it was like 9 miles or something not very far. So that was my plan. But the car free service only was seasonal only and would not start up again until May and the baptism classes weren’t to start right around that time I wasn’t sure exactly when it was going to start. I believe it was late summer or something like that and it ends two weeks before the carvery season starts. My parents moved to a completely different location in Michigan. And that was another reason why I wanted to. Play sort of play the good girl. If what if I was going to play the good girl I wanted to keep playing the good girl so we wouldn’t move because that was that was the only way I could I could get away with once this perforin season started up and if we moved in with somewhere else then I wouldn’t be familiar with the geography. There wouldn’t be something like that available you know access to public transportation is basically nonexistent in the Amish are these kids going to get to a greyhound or Amtrak or something like that. It’s pretty difficult to do that. So throughout the nine months my parents were like they started eventually despite me pretending that you know I was a hundred percent committed to staying inside the church. They decided that they were going to look for a different community and the community that we lived in at the time that local community had lots of problems. There were horrible things going on. There’s this whole other backstory that we didn’t even get into about as like oh there’s lots of of disputes among the members and all of that and a lot of people were thinking about moving anyway. But then when I tried to have that failed attempt then that just escalated the mood. The timetable for many parents for example and that the typical solution for parents of children who have attempted to escape over let’s move that fixes all our problems any problem life just move that’s going to automatically fix everything.

[01:08:28] And so we moved to a community just outside of Lansing which is way down south of the state towards further down south. And I didn’t know anybody I mean in terms of like where the taxi drivers in and where the nearest train station or bus station. How to even get there you know all that kind of stuff. And their baptism class was going to start up that month.

[01:08:58] How

[01:08:58] assured of no pressure.

[01:09:00] Yeah.

[01:09:01] And I believe that was another part of the reason it’s because of all the disputes going on the Luddington church amongst the members they know a part of it was I’m not sure they were even offering a baptism class that you’re not or whatever either. So that had something to do with it. And yes so I’m like What am I going to do. Well luckily my good girl act paid off because once we moved to the Michigan that lower Michigan community outside of Lansing I was allowed to go work in the Irish paper again. That one down there and out of sight of adults revision I was allowed to be on my bike again. Oh you know like well you’re like well we trust you now like you like we’re all going to start trying to make a new new start and blah blah blah. And part of it too was that looking back it was it was my mind my father trying to project this over a perfect family image and blah blah blah. So if if they didn’t let me go to the bakery because the Amish people had needed someone to help them then you know they would have to explain you know the issue.

[01:10:16] Oh well you know blah blah I don’t know you know like how I know her totally makes sense because that would have been a black eye on the family if they admitted from the get go you know from day one that you weren’t the perfect child.

[01:10:27] Right. That I was reformed you know because everybody already knew it. Try this escape. I mean word travels through the great mind faster than the internet really wow.

[01:10:37] So they already knew that down there.

[01:10:40] Yeah yeah. They already Holling because it was the same. You know everybody you know I mean the gossip galore.

[01:10:47] I mean you think like Tamzin is gossip about her.

[01:10:51] When I get there because I mean I know gossip is really bad among Jehovah’s Witnesses there’s not a lot a lot going on in life.

[01:11:00] Got half of us up there.

[01:11:02] Yeah. It was like this. Well will this bishop per Nazre cured or whatever reformed and like we parents like were were like the perfect parents to you know kids you know like we’ve we’ve made it like that we have this perfect relationship with our child.

[01:11:17] Now you know Korth.

[01:11:21] And so if they and the baker people needed me you know they had they were dependent on finding someone to help them and it would not be Amish Christian. You know a Szolnok over here. And those in need.

[01:11:39] Just being a good group.

[01:11:42] And so the one clincher was that the house we moved to wasn’t Amish a five hour early. With the Amish don’t always build their own house. It’s like they’ll buy existing houses and then like just turn off electricity and and remove whatever appliances aren’t allowed to be in there and replace them for example. Interesting. Yeah. It doesn’t happen to like the very very super strict ones. I’m not sure if they allow that properly nowadays because of just economic reasons. You know it’s tough to build a house from the ground up. But yes. So until we got our new phone line in the barn we kept the phone lines active inside the house for business purposes because we need to take people take dozens calls for the call. So I was scared like I can’t make phone calls during the night to my uncle Herbie Bell in Montana and all this time I’ve been calling him cleped at night. I’ve been sneaking out of the house and I knew that I could be in Montana with him. Once I did figure out how to skate on this and so I was just like okay I have no car ferry service.

[01:13:04] I don’t know how to go how to get to anywhere around here. And I can’t even make phone calls. And this baptism class is starting up and I just can’t take it anymore. I was just getting to that edge for me where I was like I’m going to I can’t make it inside anymore. So luckily for me because of the bakery I got that little bit of freedom.

[01:13:32] And I would bike past the Amish schoolhouse which had a phone in in the schoolhouse for all the Amish to use it. And so I stopped in at the schoolhouse and made my calls to both uncles and I called my Wisconsin Uncle Enos and told him you know like if I could leave tonight I would. I just I just can’t take it anymore. And he said if I came over picked you up tonight would you. Would you willingly even. I’m like you know I had this moment of like oh shit just got real with me like I can’t not say no. But it was like so unexpected. So the whole escape did not go at all as how I had planned. So I go home that night and you know I leave the schoolhouse a blight on home. And I had packed all my things that I wanted to take with me into a little box when we made the move for Luddington to just outside Lansing because they and I didn’t unpack. I knew that this was what I would take with me. So I kept it in the box. And so it was just a matter of getting my birth certificate and Social Security card and fax vaccination card out of the safe. And you know try to find movement when I could sneak into the safe downstairs. Well my mother wasn’t around and none of the kids were looking and take that stuff out those documents. And so I did that and the whole night was just surreal. It’s actually a little bit hard to remember that night because it happened so fast and until you know I went to bed. I remember not being able to fall asleep I set the alarm and finally did fall asleep and all of a sudden woke up and freaked out because I thought I had slept through the alarm that while that would be so much panic. And in fact I had somehow gotten the little hand and the big hand turned around. Now. Nervous and and my my uncle had told me that he’d meet me at a certain time and he had mentioned on the phone and all he said you know I’ll wait I’ll wait all night if for some reason you don’t show up at the allotted time at all. And it was like around 1:00 o’clock I believe it was something like that. He said you know I’ll wait until morning. And I had told them that oh no I’m going to be there I’ll be there. So the way they’re not going to happen. And and I was you know so happy that he had mentioned that and thought of that. And so I woke up and this panic you know when I got together my stuff and I had to sneak down these creaky stairs that KERTH Yeah.

[01:16:52] When the old story you can read it read this story like in my basic escape from the Amish interview that Tim parasitized quite a few years ago.

[01:17:03] But you can find that on his blog but it was go down this creaky little stairs and I’d memorized all the spots. That’s sweet. No matter how much WD 40 I put on. Went down in the living area and then head across the dining room into the kitchen to go out the back door and circle around the house to try to like are on the edge of the yard and maintain cover because the moon was shining that night was on a full moon or an actual full moon so it’s pretty bright outside and Jaso. I ran ran down half a mile. I couldn’t take my box of all my prized possessions. The only thing they cared about I couldn’t carry with me because I could not. What if I. Once I’m down stairs and crossing over through the dining room and one of my parents wakes up and sees me Hamah how am I gonna explain. I could explain. I’m going to the kitchen to get a drink of water. But my heart stops. How is it I was not not going to be successful that night. So I just had the clothes on my back 170 bucks that I had. I took out of my father’s wallet that night and my little sort of laptop size duffel bag. It’s not a duffel bag it was kind of like a briefcase size thing that I took with me with my documents and a couple personal items. That was it. And to end the story I know where it’s like 339 said have no words. I actually have to wrap it up too because I have another meeting. Yeah. So so otherwise they’d be talking longer but. So I just want to add that there’s plenty of information out there about my story you can just Google my name. Toora Bontrager and you can also go to my Web site and you can find the links to all the interviews I’ve done before as well. The Huffington Post won and the Huffington Post one I want to point that out because that’s where I talk about how my uncle inas Bontrager started raping me.

[01:19:26] And I also talk about my oh you that your uncle who you escaped with.

[01:19:32] Yes you are. Come on. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:19:36] So I also hear this all this stuff you know that goes on goes into trying to escape and then you think you’re going to a place that you have somebody understands you gets you in. You’re going to be safe with in less than a month Harvey youth raping me in Montana. And that to this day I don’t know how often because it was just an offer from me through December until I figured out how to escape him because the first night after the first night he told me if you ever challenge one I’m going to kill you. And that bought my silence. He was a violent end and I had no doubt that he would kill me or send someone after to kill me if he ever suspected I’d ever go to the police or tell anyone.

[01:20:30] So how did you get away from him.

[01:20:33] Well so I during a winter break from high school I came up finally figured out a plan which was to use the excuse that there are no jobs for high school students during the winter in Montana which is true.

[01:20:50] There were no jobs. It was this very very tiny town and just thrived on tourism during the summers. And my argument was you know that I want to be self-sufficient independent and make some money. And I called inas in Wisconsin the uncle who helped me escape that that night. I called him and asked him Hey would you be able give me some work after school in your furniture shop. He says yes. So I got that confirmation from him and then told Herbie his older brother Blake already talked to us. He said yes come that they’ll pay for the ticket for me to to go to Wisconsin. And that I presented it in a way that did not threaten him clearly because I was still alive. And I got to Wisconsin. My heartbeat was divorced. Didn’t have kids in the house. It’s just me in the house. I mean I was in another. Once again talk about being in prison and feeling like a hostage and innocent on the other hand was married and had kids. So I thought I’d never once occurred to me that that the same thing would happen weekend the first time his wife Barb both on overnight business trip he does the same thing. And it was just like you know once again like no no no words to describe how it feels. It’s like one of the thoughts that crossed my mind this was I guess this is just what uncles do. And. And I couldn’t go to the police because hard would kill me if I reported illness then you know that would Wooler him.

[01:22:41] So Harvey was doing it too.

[01:22:43] Harvey did it all from from May through December when I was in Montana. What happened was they picked me up in Michigan it took me to Wisconsin and put me on a train out to party. So that happened in the span of four four days during my escape. Andrew Yeah. Yeah.

[01:23:04] So I just like wait it out the semester.

[01:23:10] I couldn’t not be in school because my emancipation was dependent upon me staying in school so when I was 16 years old I became emancipated as a minor which is why I say in my parents. Even if it were a legal status my parents are not my parents or my ex parents it’s like divorcing your parents right. So I got all the rights as an 18 year old as long as they didn’t break the law as long as they abided by the rules that they you know that an 18 year old have to abide by including I had to be in school until I was at least 18 so if I dropped out of school in an effort to get away from illness I would lose that. And besides like where was I. I didn’t even know who to go to. I mean I had I didn’t have my driver’s license. I didn’t have a job. I didn’t. Yeah.

[01:24:08] So you end up I mean I know you’re on a time time crunch here. So how is it that you eventually end up away from all of these people.

[01:24:18] Yeah. Yeah. Was soon as school was over then I by that time had establish contact with some people in the Wisconsin community that I lived as well as an Amish kid. Before my parents moved to Michigan so it was another part of Wisconsin. So some of those the Amish there had left the church and one of them they went to school with actually he had he married by the church. They needed a babysitter. So that was my you know way to look at a place to stay. They they let me live there in exchange for babysitting and so I would babysit part time you know like whenever they were at work and and then I look for a job at the same time you know some other job.

[01:25:15] Had like three jobs were it myself not sure when you don’t have a lot of secondary education. It makes it more difficult to earn enough of a living.

[01:25:27] Well yes and also I couldn’t get any jobs that pay anything beyond minimum wage. Azzam yeah yeah yeah.

[01:25:34] I mean that that’s a big problem with Jehovah’s Witnesses too so I totally understand that it’s hard to find find your place financially in this situation. Yeah. So. So you get free from everybody. How long have you been out now.

[01:25:51] Twenty two years.

[01:25:53] So May 24 This was my 22nd anniversary 22nd year anniversary.

[01:26:01] That’s awesome. Now how many years were you in.

[01:26:06] Fifteen. It was late in the year I turned 16 so I wrote about it several months before my 16th birthday. I was like almost 16 years. So now officially I mean I’ve officially been out of the church longer than I’ve been in bed and I was getting and I really like that. Yeah yeah yeah. And I remember thinking about that for a year. Right. Right as it within the first year of my escape thinking wow I wonder what it would be like once I hit the 15 year mark you know where I’d be like cool and. And it seems like such a long time ago and at the same time it seems like not much time has passed by. It is very easy for me to go back in time. I sort of like time travel in that sense you know where I’m not I still speak English or Amish fluently. So that’s one of one of the things I still speak Amish fluently. I’ve not you know removed myself in that sense whereas that is so it’s easy for me to go back into that those memories or remember the good things about the stuff or think about the kids how I can help them or what needs they have. So it’s kind of interesting. Yeah I don’t quite know how to how to explain. I mean definitely I’m very culturally Amish. I’ve always maintained that and been it’s been important for me to maintain that.

[01:27:36] So what do you like about your life on the outside. What do you what do you like about the freedom that you have now.

[01:27:48] What do you like about the freedom obviously freedom is something like But what are you doing. You know what can light your fire what gets you excited about this life.

[01:28:01] The that’s such a good question that and trying to think of how to answer.

[01:28:11] I just love learning that’s always been who I am is to learn and just let life experience everything that there is to experience and do everything there is to do I mean like I I have so many dreams and end things on my wish list. And so many talents that.

[01:28:34] Innate talents I have that I haven’t yet had time or resources to develop know music for example is is high on my list.

[01:28:44] That’s my childhood dream to become a musician which still happens and I don’t feel that that might. My life is not going to be I have done what I was meant to do and until I’ve I’ve you know I’ve become a musician.

[01:29:08] I feel you know so everything else that I’ve done is amazing and huge accomplishment. You’re going to an Ivy League school. I mean just the fact that even like managing your high school is incredible for an army. Yeah yeah. You know like learning how to fly a plane at age 18 traveling to about 30 countries living in New York City and loving it. And now you know Jane writing a memoir which is hard work I mean harder than I ever thought it would be things. I mean I’ve experienced a lot. I’ve lived a very good life in terms of all the things that I wanted to do when I was a little kid. I mean I’ve I’ve done it except becoming a musician which is my very original during I could say that that’s really impressive you know to be able to do all these things at such a young age and to have so much time to pursue.

[01:30:03] Now you know what you want to pursue. I know that you know you’re doing this interview ahead of this this Amish conference that’s coming up. Can you can you tell us a little bit about the conference about what you’re hoping to discuss about maybe some of the issues that you want to tackle or just you know what is what is it that people should be looking forward to.

[01:30:26] Yes. So the name of the conference’s disrupting history cool and reclaiming our Amish story so that’s exactly what we’re doing. Like that we’re we’re taking back our story which has been coopted by academia a so-called expert authorities on the Amish just google them and their names will pop up. They’re not experts on US omission and they have no right to call themselves that. Our story is like our are the narrative of of us Amish has been determined by them and also the entertainment industry. Reality TV for example and comedy were were just a laugh line. And those issues need to be rectified. I mean these are serious serious issues where there’s this collusion of what we call church and state. You know the outside coopting our story and colluding with the state to allow it to allow the Amish as it as a people to remain frozen in time. So Wisconsinvs. Yoder really sealed that fate by. It was basically just the outside the state the federal Supreme Court level saying well we embrace ignorance and and that’s great for for the Amish and never mind that we’re actuallyU.S. citizens. I mean what about the rights of the children. So it’s really about addressing those forces that are happening so it’s not just the Amish clergy elders or whatever violating the rights of children it’s also the state and the federal government.

[01:32:22] And how do they pander to that religious pressure.

[01:32:26] Well yeah both both pander to both. Also just for their own purposes because of whatever other political agendas other groups had. It was easy to latch onto as Amish because that was what we were not engaged with the world. There was no representation in the court for us children during coffin versus Yoder no representation. And even though theU.S. is the only country in the world that hasn’t ratified theU.N. Convention on the Rights of the child. I mean even Somalia has ratified that. I mean for God’s sake not the old it but at least they signed on like the US hasn’t. And despite that there was still a law at that time and still is. I believe that children need to be represented like somebody needs to be speaking on behalf advocating for the child in a situation like that and no one did. So this is serious like real heavy serious issues that we’re addressing so it’s going to be you know this educational issue and then talking about how about sexual abuse for example special with me too. Now people finally understand the general public understand sexual abuse issues in a way it never did before. So much easier talk about that now thanks to meet two movement.

[01:33:55] And then just about women’s rights and the fact that women do not have any rights at all inside the Amish church.

[01:34:04] This is 2013 we’re in one of the Westernized countries supposedly them freest country in the world.

[01:34:14] And there is a population and entire people that do not have any rights as women. Right.

[01:34:24] So songs. So can you give us the winds and where’s the commission that’s coming up. Is it something.

[01:34:34] You know it seems like it would be a good idea to go ahead and you know kind of plug that for those universally in your audience who might listen.

[01:34:41] Yes if you’re listening please please go buy your ticket. There’s an early bird ticket sale going on through August 30 and we’d love for you to you can go to the Web site W W dot Amish heritage that word or you can google my name and you will find us everywhere. Your chickies you can get those on Eventbrite or on Facebook or on our Web site. And it’s a two day conference September 28 29 in Lancaster Pennsylvania. Easy access fromD.C. New York and Baltimore anywhere in the Northeast region via Amtrak or car. And it’s going to be awesome. Our keynote speakers on Friday the keynote speaker is a Pulitzer nominated attorney author and attorney Marci Hamilton and Saturday’s Keano is Gaelen Gingrich is a member of the Council of Foreign Relations and a Unitarian Universalist minister and in New York City. So it’s going to be very interesting. And he wrote a book by the way called God ribeyes. For anyone wondering if it’s going to be a very interesting conversation.

[01:35:56] No that’s really cool. Now I’m going to give you one chance here. You talked about taking back you know your own story as Amish people after you had a moment here to to correct some misconception or something that was out there that you would like to to speak to.

[01:36:17] Feel free to go ahead and do that now.

[01:36:22] Rumspringa it’s not what you think it is a ritual that is really not at all. So come to the conference if you want to find out what rumspringa Ashley is or means otherwise shoot me an email or you know go to my go go on social media ask. I would love the conversation to be public.

[01:36:46] OK. You say go on social media. Where where would where would someone ask you on social media where would be the best place look for Twitter.

[01:36:59] The Irish heritage foundation I think that the handle is Amish heritage. No I take that back on Twitter the handle is Amish Foundation.

[01:37:09] And you can also find the facebook page the handle on Facebook is Amish heritage foundation.

[01:37:19] Which heritage foundation.

[01:37:21] It’s all right well I will make sure that all of this gets gets posted up so that people have an opportunity you know to have that conversation.

[01:37:31] I think Ramesh ring as a I said it anywhere near close enough. I hope you know that I know that that’s something that that is a fascinating concept as far as what most people know about it but I think it would be really interesting to hear from you exactly what that is.

[01:37:50] So if somebody else doesn’t ask the question I will.

[01:37:53] So yeah yeah yeah. In short it perpetuates the problem is it adds to the issues and you know we’re not given a choice but let’s have the conversation online.

[01:38:06] All right. That sounds great. Well I appreciate your time appreciate you reaching out to do this and for sharing as much of your story as you could and in a time that you know was provided. And yeah I just wish you the best and I hope that your conference is a huge success.

[01:38:21] Thank you. Thank you so much. It’s been really awesome to have this conversation and I appreciate it.

[01:38:30] As always I want to thank her for being so open about her story. You know I know it’s not always easy to relive the past.

[01:38:38] A lot of us have some some really painful sometimes ugly things in our past. But you know the past kind of informs our present. And when we discuss these things openly we let other people know that they’re not alone. So it was beautiful to hear her be able to share some of her story. I hope that it helps others. You know I just recently started a Facebook group called shun podcast where we can actually all get together and share our stories support each other even across these different groups. So please join in. Just look it up on Facebook. It’s entitled Shunned podcast. It’s two words. It is a private group. I will have to approve you but no worries there. We’re already doing some things like discussing career challenges encouraging self care on the weekends sharing what we’re doing there. Some of the previous guests are there. You can say hi to them. You can also tell us some of your own story if you like. It’s not just that typical JW a group not necessarily focused on following the ins and outs of what the cult does. It’s about us it’s about our stories. It’s a place focused on personal story. That’s kind of reflective of the podcast itself. So come join in no matter what group you come from. Again the facebook group is called Shunda podcast if you’d like to support the podcast. You can do so in various ways. One way is to leave a positive review on iTunes. When you put a review up on iTunes it helps us raise in the rankings and by doing so then maybe other people who are looking for help can also find us. So it’s really a pretty important thing to do. The other thing that you can do is go to patreon.com/shunned and there you can support the show financially for as little as a dollar a month. The money that I get I put right back into the show. Believe me I’m not getting wealthy off this but you know I use this money to go for things like the Web site for hosting and you know we’ve got this big push where we’re doing transcriptions so that we can have more content on the site for SEO which means more people can possibly find us the next episode that I’m going to release we’ll be out around the beginning of October. It’s going to feature Lyndi a former Jehovah’s Witness. She’s had an interesting life.

[01:41:00] And you know now we’ve all been shunned by various people. But one thing I haven’t covered yet I don’t think is a person who is shunned by their own daughter.

[01:41:15] And you know it’s one thing to be shunned by your former witness friends. It’s one thing to be shunned maybe by your own family who raised you. But when you raise someone and then you know they’re around a cult they become one of those people and then they shine you when you leave. You know that’s that’s another dimension. And you know Lindsay has a really interesting project that she had put together to try to reach her daughter someday. So we also feature that the music today for the show is by fair voyeur. It’s entitled No hell yet. And if you’d like to hear my personal story you can do so by listening to the podcast called This JW Life. It’s also found at thisjwlife.com both the Shunned podcast and This JW Life can be found on YouTube now. You can find them at Sean podcast oneword or thisJ.W. life and I even do some in person videos. Now do some videocast on the Sean channel so Sean podcast on YouTube. So let’s go ahead and send this out like I do all of them love others do no harm and go be happy.