Episode Twenty Five – Daniel is a PIMO Jehovah’s Witness

Welcome to the shunned podcast where we expose the religions that you shunning as a tool to control people before we get in today’s story to take a minute to promote something that I have coming up starting Sunday, March 10 at 7 PM Eastern time I will be leading a coaching/support group for people that are interested through an online video chat platform I’ve gone through certification training as a life coach I have been going through a specific program myself that I was interested in teaching but I went through it as a student and as you know from listening to these podcasts I’m all about helping people process their stories in this group were to be going over questions and doing exercises that will challenge you to look at your past and to come to terms with it the start of the goal is to be able to move forward more in life but first we kinda have to do an autopsy of sorts on the past to see where we’ve been process things that need to be dealt with and worked to see what we can learn about ourselves through that fast doing this together in a group we can all learn from one another and nobody has to do this alone after we deal with some of the past we can start working on the present working 01 a look at who we are today how we work what motivates us what holds us back at where to find things to celebrate about ourselves and then from these present observations will start to look forward to the future and dream together you know there was actually a time where we all had the same cookie-cutter dreams you know if your Jehovah’s Witness is a vast environment you came out of we all had that same panda paradise to look forward to but now that were free we can dream our own dreams is over and help discover those of this is gonna be a four week course so it will be one month that will challenge you to find yourself in your own story and were going to work on writing a new story together that takes your character wherever you want to go in life again this will be held every Sunday night starting at 7 PM this Eastern time and were to plan on going till 9 PM so will be two hours for Sundays in a row the cost for the program will be $99 paid up front so just $25 per two hour session so I do try to keep the cost down I’m only going to be taking six people for this first class that I doesn’t mean that you’re here at a luck if you’re not one of the first six if more people signed up and that that I’ll look at either setting up another class to run concurrently or will do more after this one I just don’t want to many people in any single group come prepared to be open and you’ll get out of this what you put in I literally just did a version of this myself in a group of six people none were from the background that we all have but every one of them including myself walked away a better person so I’ve adapted and built upon that program tailored it somewhat to our more specific needs and I’m ready to help people change their lives in new ways if you want to help create a better life for yourself if you’re still struggling are stuck in ways after leaving the call this is for you go to shun podcast.com and click on the page for coaching and you can sign up there all the relevant and if information will be there as well and included a link in the description for the podcast so you can probably just quickly from your podcast that if you use one if not just go to shun podcast.com and you’ll see the page for coaching there I’m really excited to do this so be obscene for my own eyes what this can do for others Heck I wouldn’t like us and I went into a similar program and one of the reasons I went into it and it kinda had you the seed of an idea an inkling that that I might want to be a coach myself and yet here I am so I know that this can spark positive change in people’s all right now let’s go and get on with the show today we have the story of Daniel now I know this is called the shun podcast technically Daniel is not shunned right now however part of shunning isn’t just the actual shunning if the threat of shunning it’s the fear of it and how it keeps people stuck in the coal so Daniel is actually one of Jehovah’s Witnesses he might be sitting in a kingdom hall near you but we’ve done things to protect his identity I think you find this fresh look interesting if nothing else it so interesting to know that their people sitting there in the kingdom hall right next to other Jehovah’s Witnesses that aren’t what they seem as I release this episode I’m actually can be traveling to meet a sister from an area that is an atheist yet she goes door-to-door with her Bible and present in the congregation as your average witness maybe even above average all of these people are what we call chemo PIM oh physically in but mentally out what a surprise you to know that there are even elders and congregations that know the truth about the cult and that are struggling to figure out how to get out of their predicament of a there might be an elder giving a public talk this Sunday in your congregation that is going through the motions because and in order to not blow there cover the King of the can’t make any sudden moves the kid to suddenly be like to forget this I don’t want to be an elder anymore they’re gonna have to slowly back down from these positions so how does this happen and how other people how or how do these chemo’s exist how does this happen to a person while let’s meet Daniel and let’s learn how one man’s story develops my name is Daniel Bell I’m 13 years old I am one of Jeremy’s witnesses and I’m not shunned by Dennis that’s an interesting way to kick this off so how did you become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the first place I was pretty much race and religion and my mother got baptized when I was about six months old however my father was never witness and you will be a witness he is a military man SARS race. One put in one put out since I was a baby I would have to say I leans more towards my mother pretty: a mama’s boy I’m going to follow the lead of course in and did she said so I am not sometimes I was raised only as a witness because my father so different when it came to religion and nestled yet at that make sense of and how did your your mom become a witness in the first place it sounds like you are pretty young do you know how that came about him from what she’s told me she’s had exposure to witness to witnesses her entire life and ever since she was a child of parents with the type that they would study some days with the witnesses of the days they would hide internal lights and they want insight should been exposed since she was a child but she did not start studying until about a year before I was born she was living overseas and eyewitness not until this is the story my mother told me and it sounds like one of those convention stories of course she said she’s overseas because my father was going to see and a witness came to the double and five minutes before she had been praying to God please I want to find you send someone in literally by minutes late eyewitness not to talk and she grabbed a hold the folder inside and the witness told her thank you for calling me inside vision may be on the street was going to call the cops on me is not supposed to be in his name and so this is at least what I’ve been told and it sounds like one of those you know we trade in gold came stories you hear the regional and district mentioned in the Soto from that the stories told pretty much want to start studying if you accept what you’re being told you I’m you to start keeping a store that know you so you it’s funny that you all those years the witnesses have been around her but this one time this is the time that counted a half-dozen so that her parents ever become witnesses or did they all were they always just kind of thought in and out of studying them or they were always in and out what ended up happening was my mother and both the assistance my mother was the best of the family but her and her sisters were became gems witnesses and baptize that parents never did they were the inside of the egg out of the country but I grew up and down sitting they were very into two traumas and will be sold something so it was one of those things that was like a crutch for them I guess it’s like a lease when starting at least trying to do with right of the Bible and then you know they go off on back to their old ways and not do anything with it they were those sort of how to describe it better than that no I understand it economy like it’s almost like it’s as long as they had Jesus or Jehovah or they had this religious ego thing on one side than that, felt that it was it, made up for what they were doing on the other side) yeah in other than that I mean they were very wonderful people we of course since my father was in the military we moved around a lot but we visited them every day and even though it seems like when we were that they decided not to talk to the week and we would have so much fun with them to spending time like they would refund them in a test time he was they were all right it took like growing up to be but have fun with them because us children know that you know they were the profile more proper family the my mother’s family was on the and I guess you would say like redneck circle you we go out and they had a bunch of lands we would be a run around and play on they were very generous people for all their faults of a very generous they would always spend as much time with us teaching arm above my mother’s for the tea to my brother like a tall and you a lot of varied interests is a really close them on my mother’s is it’s funny how we can you we who were Jehovah’s Witnesses in our always told certain things about people on the outside and in so you would you would ultimately instantly judge someone you know who is maybe involved in drug culture or whatever as being like this bad person but you can see all the that that’s not the whole of who they are and what I have obviously you don’t from what you’re describing here they were genuinely good people and some just they had the demon/Realty sure gently good and in the along the same lines of what you’re saying I don’t think I was of a fully affected by that type of rhetoric from the witnesses because even though they did I did to some extent believe that’s I grew up with a father who is not much of and so I sold my Tyler my entire life and soul know there is this good man when the title “he’s a good man like I never had a problem with him until my parents divorced and I was a teenager at the time but I I remember being five years old is it’s one of my earliest memories and five years old and talking with my mother about God and Jesus and always thinks and she told me that we needed to be good examples for Michael and that we need to do everything we could to help him to see the light see the truth because if we didn’t that during the great tribulation he would most likely be the one to 10% because he works for the donations for the military so it when the military came knocking the premise in the concentration camps he would be the one and now at the time I didn’t think much of it other than that not my dad but now looking back I just think of the excuse my French but what do you think this how the five-year-old about his father horrible and of course I know my mother wasn’t trying to say or do anything terrible sheets you really believe that you but I think that’s what makes it so much more damaging and she wasn’t trying to throw Shane and my father she was literally trying to teach me what you needed to help them and I think that makes it so much less know I agree I agree, is easier to dismiss if it was a sterling shade rock but with genuine enough front cut comes from the heart that that’s a lot tougher specific room mom I want to back up to one thing that you had said it went animal I want to revisit or visit how your this dynamic played out you know it is inside your own home you had said that your mom was praying just before the witnesses knocked at her door do you was there something going on there or was it was there something in life that was you know may be getting to her that made her vulnerable to the witnesses when they came because a lot of times through these calls I find that people have trauma in their past or something like that that that that is impacting them and then the witnesses show up and provide them with a set certain sense of certainty that makes them feel better Saunders, wondering you know you happen to know what the background was about you know I I honestly can’t say what was going on in that instant that made him pray about it and this is just sort of what I remember from the story I can ask my mother now she passed away but a teenager but from looking back and speaking with my own brother and sister who are older than me knowing more about my mother now I would have to say that she had a lot of parenting she didn’t have the drug issue that my grandparents had but she did have alcohol issue that for me I was young I never noticed until I was a bit old until I was around 1314 until but am apparently speaking with my unit my siblings she had that that issue heard Tyler so it’s a mixture of God effect of parents had on him because of course not only with a into drugs but when she was younger they were not as great a people as their will and they were older they you know what very physical and beyond just the regular spanking to the child and so she did and they were a very very cool well they lived on the top of Mount write it so that there were very poor family in then my father comes in my mother meets my father in I believe a school and the ring set into this new wealth of you know he’s not rich but he’s definitely lower middle class and he drinks that you because he’s military she’s able to travel around the country and around the well and it’s just this completely new lifestyle that she was probably should probably enjoyed it but was not used too at the time you select will be a kind of like a culture shock to the right go into this new world like that right so that’s the background I have on it yet is on site on that so that’s what I believe it’s just a mixture of the traumas from childhood and now this new I mean they had been married for a few years all this chunks meeting of a witness at the toll but it was still poorly studied or at the time sure so then you now you you’ve got a mom who’s a witness who your dad is not that is not only not a witness but he’s in the military which obviously the witnesses have some issues with our how did Howell did you the religion itself is gonna give you a certain worldview your mom kind of it has already as you mentioned, played into that worldview so what how did you see your dad how did you see the people outside the organization how did it make you see the world around you to question him for me things just kind of what what they were but that wasn’t much of a we had the us versus them mentality shall my father was not to be honest I mean I was angry at him when he left my mother when I was up in my midteens but to be honest he didn’t leave we left him long people in the sense that we were never very close to how could we be entitlement on sure you he was yes he was off all the he was mall the man took care of us you his own parenting style he was more of an absentee father and and I don’t say that to unit the upset with him or anything I understand a lot more now that I’m an adult but he he did the best with what he knew how to do and what he knew how to do was provide for you was never that emotional person I don’t think you can be when you’re in the military no I don’t get a trust that said to be that emotional support that we needed at times he was never that he wasn’t as much of a teacher that was some things he told me that I still remember to this day but for the majority he was the provide consider it would always be old when he would want to do something with the family not all that you wanted to but it was an old dynamic because it was like okay will will go fishing with you will will do this with you this Saturday will skip service and go to the next sense that they were going back and set both course of course got got up with things first in the can’t be held right so as you said that he taught you some things can initiate care to share anything the, stuck with you what I think the one of the things that sticks with me to this day that looking back at sort of funny now I guess you know in your you start learning things kids at school and bring them home and things you should know and you consider itself so I I had lunch test from these kids in school right I came home and I guess I don’t know how it happened by purposely test the spots that my pants but my mother got installs like pistol she took me my father was usually likely she took me she told me not to cast why shouldn’t Castro was elected she spent the crap well you make sense of your first offense for so later on my father came home and he came into my room. And it was I don’t know if I was going to bed or if I was just like rabbits are just laying in bed and I remember him coming into my room and am sitting down with that and talking to which was red because like I said is less of a teacher and model provide he told me he said son you are actually cursing at school and and that’s not right and you know everything you must told you is true and he said but I I wanted to give you respect and of course I’m at this point I’m am speaking from memory in the same exact words from what set but he said I want to give you the perspective is and what he told me he said words this is gonna be more more accurate to his exact words he said words have me everywhere has meaning even bad words and when you use those words in that way you sound like an 80 the purpose of passing is to call people down all or it’s too to make an emphatic point and you don’t want to put people down the know Ms. like and don’t use those words and like those interested in as an adult it sounds silly and not so profound but as a world when I was nine or 10 I was like how I that’s better than us making like this making this made me hide it this I actually can say, because while the really great right there yes the sacred major hide in this he actually reached you yeah you not reaching a kid so well when you’re just hitting the I mean sometimes you do something that I improvement sometimes gets the service banking sure I understand it right right right but I have to say that you know he he you know you kinda said he is more than the physical provider but you that’s really quite emotionally intelligent what he did there have to sit down in and have that discussion with you now good friend up that’s nice so so then what was it like a home for you growing up as a witness you know between the two parents just what was it like for you as as meal being that child that little little witness kid at home how do you feel you know to me it just felt normal I didn’t feel good or bad way about it just was what it was time that it right and in and being in that circumstance in moving around to different military bases we would meet other families that were in the same document we would meet other witnesses who the woman came in after being married to the mountains and military shadow self and the children so it didn’t seem out of place until we move those one area the country removed to where there were no other people in the same predicament and so in that particular all we were sort of looked at as it was weird because some people look to us as the oddballs will be Catholic around them and others and others look at it that’s like mad Mike best father husbands in the military and their still sticking with it like at the example as it was a really good I would think that would be almost like hero status than enough to be in a variety around it wasn’t as much karate as was just like you know most of the people look at us in that way and not in your status there were a few that would like to be kept around then you have no daughter but for the most part it was normal to me anyway and’s need to give me a little more balance as I listened to every set of your podcast and I’ve heard stories of people who they basically own the other spent time with witnesses of the witness kid and because we had that little bit more balance of marble my father not being a witness I grew up playing with my it’s all the time my next-door neighbors were my best friends because we live next to each other even though they went witnesses nice in my mother sort of had to be okay with it to an extent because it might if she had told you know you can’t biscuits my follow-up probably wouldn’t without a one since I didn’t have growing up is that I always had a choice my father was never opposed to the witnesses but some of his ideas were so I remember when my when my brother was in high school only because he’s the oldest he wanted to go to his problem and my mom didn’t want to to and my dad said I don’t care if he can go so growing up I have these examples I can see the split between how they treated my brother and my sister and I can always see like now I have a choice but I’m choosing to be a witness even though really I was still in doctor even though I had a choice yet I was Dr. Jan but I had the sense of choice yeah that’s that’s that’s a cool perspective I do I have found there is anecdotally it seems like people who grow up in the witnesses in a quote your divided household it seems like they have more of a chance at living a quote unquote normal life at some point it seems like they they have a different perspective that that gives them that allows them to I guess maybe not be a as afraid of leaving as other people I’m sometimes because they aren’t I know when my wife and I left in her late 30s we were terrified of the people around us which is the stupidest thing but this is what we were given you know it was it was all he knew to be able to to have that balanced perspective does seem like a gives you more of a chance of of waking up someday I will go ahead I lost my train of thought okay love you ASCII so then I so that little aside aside how did you feel at school how was how is your life at school growing up as a young witness Sue in order to answer this I first need to say looking back at my childhood I was indoctrinated but no I can honestly say it was never 100% effective because if it was then when I was a child at school I would’ve spent a lot more time talking to kids about the fact that I was a witness in trying to help them in witnesses yada looking back I didn’t it just never came out and it wasn’t out of the fear of trying to hide it or anything it was just simply I mean you’re you that’s because I didn’t have that divide of who I can only hang out with kids at school unlike a lot of people to know what about like I you still have the holidays the flag salute all that did did that set you apart a little bit I’m the earliest thing I can remember is being I believe I was in kindergarten and I mean I I was a good that the only witnessing I can remember doing at school was being about five years old in kindergarten and I had brought those tracts with me I forget the name of them I think it was like something about the new wealth and at the picture of all the different family of the paradise and had a bunch of these tracks and when we were leaving school and school without understanding of the stairway at the exit and as kids were walking by passing them out not saying anything that is holding it up to get to those my little witness that’s only witnessing I can remember doing when it came to the holidays most of my teachers were actually pretty good about it like they didn’t announce to the class like he has to leave us to celebrate or anything like that I remember going to the library which to me as a kid I didn’t mind I’d vote to read so for me it wasn’t like I when we had a magic library it was just a grade I can get out of the stump foster mother about this body read my books the you are at your pretty chill Canada’s of is like you just you just kind of went with the flow you just kind of accepted things as they came and now were really upset about it or anything as of as a little kid yes as I got older and you know when you’re in adolescence I believe that’s when you start to get more self-conscious about things you in it still wasn’t that bad I don’t of course I still don’t remember maybe I did but I don’t remember hiding the fact that I was a witness I just remember it of course not coming up but I do remember things when it came to date that’s when it started to get is the kids around the metabolism that boyfriends that girlfriends as I I’m about to put the holidays none of that ever really got to me is the teachers were mostly really good they could be like another assignment something but I think dating is when it really got to me however even though my mother was a witness and I was fairly fairly well indoctrinated I think of that points by the time I was interested in dating my brother had dated and on witness and my mom didn’t handle it well my sister had been disfellowshipped because of dating and on witness my mom didn’t handle it well so by the time like I was old enough like 14/15 thinking about those things my mother was more relaxed on the topic except she said she still didn’t want me taking on witness but my first go but my mother knew about I was 14 years old and the skeleton of a witness and she was okay with it because at least I wasn’t dating love this yeah yeah yeah so in my my sister was and she found out that what the hell you’re leading to the youngest was always get away with everything dammit as I was the oldest and that’s up to it because when you’re the baby and you the parents will that baby but I think I honestly think the biggest reason the youngest ones get away with more is because the parents realize they were too extreme the children have some like my mother was on a walk with my one micro the data is not skeleton what she was so tickled my ability to prop open it information just like as long as she is a witness in I’m better every time your client yeah yeah no it makes perfect sense to you is we all learn from our mistakes that we send him into my mother’s credit out of the three siblings I’m the only one that was never disfellowshipped both of my siblings were and they came they came back reports but since then you know my mother passed away in some of the things that happened in my where rolling in different places and like now but as a note late teens and early 20s I was proud of that I was time on the only one instance fellowship I get exactly) like you moaned yeah mom was right to let me do think that the stories dating another witness and it wasn’t physical and she was always that in it now looks like successful with the standpoint speaking of that witness dampers within how was it at the Kingdom Hall for you growing up I mean you know you mentioned that you were able to date when did you get baptized I got baptized and if the witness had me say this there beside him mad at me I was either 13 or 14 I don’t remember my baptism date exactly it was like either July a cold June 8 I can’t remember Daniel what was over think of you if you knew you didn’t remember the date WWJ 2000 and so I mean I was always respected… That’s right with tempted I was always doted upon by the congregation because it I gave my first talk before I could read I was my very very best talk I was a household I was four years old I wanted to be on the school so what they did there was an older brother in the hole he was in his 50s he was like my best friend at the time he actually gave the talk and I was his household like the system is used to give talks back that you develop a demonstration my second talk I gave I was five years old and I was just barely learning how to read so school oversee yet he made me memorize it it was Psalms 23 and he said if you’re going to give a talk because you can barely read but you need to memorize a stock if you really want memorize the entire song Psalms 23 is probably the short assignments only success as long as it was time for a five-year-old and keep a five-year-old attention that log it’s pretty good right for because of that and because I was always active so that on all especially in that one of these because it’s like Bob is five gave a talk and that that’s the only time I ever remember my father coming to the meeting because I told you so me memorizing it and I told him it’s a time love it if you would be that many came and he was redo my talking states the entire meeting and I remember like he was proud of me at the same time when I got all for the rest of the meeting I was you I had my nitpick and I would trawl I would always draw during the meetings it was more the physical tick I had to be doing something with my hands I remember my dad like telling me is like having everyone paid attention to your talk you should patent and that but what what he didn’t understand because I would I mean it was a physical tick move anything I was paying attention in my mind because I was my mother would always say I would sit that might be drawing and I would suddenly raise my hand and she wouldn’t know what the heck I was gonna say in the night on since he liked both of you but it was was that sort of thing’s like I would & book to say no to sing really loud I gave my talk is still fairly young soak in it and of course we were the family that father was military and we still made it so in almost every holy but it looked like super locked and just doted upon by the congregation and when they have a young brother like that who is eager to to participate there are a lot of hopes and dreams of other people that seem to get on that young brother that he’s gonna get baptized that he is gonna know go to Bethel or Pioneer or whatever so you will have them here: yeah to U so so your baptized RAM 1314 how did things progress as you went on your into your teenage years obviously you said you will actually let me ask you first what made you get what made you get baptized at 1314 what do you remember was there like an impetus to or was it to something you wanted to do on I believe most of us who are raised as witnesses we’ve always had the pressure from kids and from adults in the congregation of so there was some of that elements I don’t remember what the exact point was I I do remember roughly what it was we were at a and assembly I forget what they were called at the time but it wasn’t the district it was one of the other assemblies and because of where we where we had the hotel because it was far away from where we lived and I remember all the remember is that assembly affected is a remember coming back to the hotel that night and I lie down in bed at the hotel and items from praying to Jehovah I was just affected by that day for some reason to Jehovah I wont serve you in and I did my my dedication cried that night in the next day comes the two days something in the next day at the assembly I told her that I said I want to get baptized since most I don’t remember if it was a specific talker was the whole day of what it was that’s that’s as much as I remember to be honest did you have is what it is you maybe have a friend who got baptized that they are anything new actually arm but I do it was something that was said that I just got a right I just don’t remember who is a specific talker it was the likely arrangement of talks gotcha so that after you get baptized how did things go for you know where you that were you the kid that was out there auxiliary pioneering you know when there wasn’t school during the summer or you reaching out in other ways honestly not real not at the I got baptized and this is why believe I was actually that in 14 this is not long at got baptized that I met my first girlfriend got microscope and my mother knew about anyway so I was distracted by that her a while when that ancient I was around 16 years old my parents were going through a divorce at the time and I my mom allowed me to drop out of school into homeschooling program in because because I wanted to my distal blessed moment like my friends my ex my girlfriend at the time and my other friends were all in this particular homeschool program it wasn’t witnessed sponsored it was a legitimate program and I just sent you know what I need to go to school when I can do it this way and I can knock out all the rest of my school work in six months and then of course I got the program and I never did it par for the course for a lot of people’s she allowed me to drop out to do that and when I dropped out I got a job working with a brother in a construction company to run his own construction company and I would work with him part-time and then from that I left that to get a job at a restaurant and when I went to the restaurant that’s when I began like my spiritual court spiritual career so to speak because it was a bit it’s a more flexible Job you work a lot more evenings afternoons so I remember there is one brother and all that I was very close with that I would go out and service three times a week and with in particular like everyone’s day was okay we would go out in service Wednesday morning we would eat at the restaurant where I worked in the you would go home and then I would start like that was like my routine and I got on Saturdays with my family and in another day of the week so that’s when my would include spiritual Chris started I never did find the I did auxiliary quite a bit throughout my life and I’ve done and I started reaching out more more at that time but not immediately after getting baptized so nearly you’re pretty much going into your young adults and your seems like you’re you’re kind of you say starting your spiritual career year, reaching out honestly often what you said you what the work and having friends and everything is sounds like you as far as witness lives go you are leading a pretty decent life is sounds like you had friends you had you had worked it that you was flexible you are able to to fulfill these different aspects of of life within the congregation as you got older how did things go you know because like at every young witness around 18 to hit hits that that point where they have some decisions to make and that’s no what they’re gonna do or where they’re going to go live or if they’re going to date or whatever you how to things, progress for you as you got your up around that age services this is where things got off track this is where my life started to change right before I turned using right before I turned 18 my mother passed away so when I turned 18 I was in the middle of this depression is upset and I was still working at the restaurant and got him into the restaurant that I had went to high school with before… And so we reconnected became friends again I had already sort of I stopped going to the meetings not because I didn’t believe not because I was upset I stopped caring because every time I was at the meeting someone would try to be encouraging Silas so sorry about him or no so sorry I just wanted to move on is much as I loved and missed out I didn’t want that reminder and no matter what and I think that most people have the social awareness to stop but there is this one brother it is sweet as he could be used in is like Jesus 60s and he was autistic so of course is so he didn’t quite have the social understanding that most people have yet he is probably obsessed with it right and is like every single meeting. Come up to me but his hand on my shoulder and tell me and I appreciated the sentiment at the same time it was just that reminder that I I didn’t want and so I I sort of stopped going good I was like if I go to talk to me I go talk and whether other derogations you could’ve gone to him just I don’t know you where you are located or anything wool in this particular I’ve been pretty vague about baptisms to I yeah I just wondering if this is the got to give you the way in in this particular area of the country the nearest the congregation I went to was about 15 minutes from my house and it’s a rule area so that was one congregation in the hole in the next closest hole was like an hour and a half away right and I was not doing that you had that one choice in fact that’s all that my girlfriend was from when I was talking is I know I’m not trying to basically still going to didn’t want to deal with that and then you know I’m at work one day in the scope of high school comes in we always thought was pretty and we sort of reconnected his friends and got progressed and I went to sleeping together when the dating for a while while since I wasn’t going to meetings but I still believe I just wasn’t in a place I was depressed and I was depressed I’d recently been broken up with an it’s it’s a shame to say this this friend from high school was simply a rebound I lost my virginity on a rebound which is terrible to say but it’s the truth would happen in so of course people, holding see me around town with scope I never saw them but they clearly saw me because the brothers came over one day my mom passed away but I’m still living my brother and his wife and the elders came over one day to do a and call them and then as they were leaving best to come out and they just said are you taking so-and-so because people simply seen you around town and I said no adjustments and that they had nothing they can do about it so they decided okay we want you to come back to the hole in in and they tried to be encouraging and then they left they knew I was lying on a date they didn’t have it was weird at the time anyway the way the two with select was they wanted two witnesses of the same exact instance so one person would see me unit say Walmart is to me at Best Buy so it didn’t Have it to is that you are having but they would have to have evidence that you were dating not just evidence that you are friends right there they want to go to prove but I will most of them any association between a male and female you must the day to write and I think the pickup was I found out later I didn’t know the time but my brother had told them that you will be and seen my call outside the place overnight as I was doing a lot of times I wouldn’t come home because also was with her are I was with work friends of something and so you told him that it was the only even think to bring his wife with them but second witness so they decided to accept it at the moment they knew I was lined with a clip it and moved on in it that was the beginning from then on I was about 18 and I’m that he now from the past 12 years of my life it’s been a back-and-forth with the wit being a witness or not for different reasons every time something that it wasn’t for lack of believe I was just depressed and I can do it and I couldn’t be around especially this particular estimate always reminded me to him and so then you got to give yourself some some compassion to me you lost your mom and and I know it was a it was kind of a rebound as far as the dating world goes but I’m sure you were just heart and you know, feeling alone and and I was yeah I mean it makes it makes it really makes sense and I feel sorry for that 18-year-old kid who was so broken you know because there’s that’s actually tough you I don’t you haven’t really discussed and you don’t have to put the details out there about whatever transpired with your mom leading up to her death but you know that’s is a tough thing to endure but in 18 you know you’re at an age where there’s a lot going on anyway and that’s that’s really tough so you know it’s not some I know as a witness we would’ve it would’ve been as it’s unfortunate that the elders would if they had known what you had done what ashamed you for it instead of trying to understand you and and that’s that just a shame because they really know if you put yourself in that position you can easily see where a person is reaching out for for love affection understanding comfort whatever in any way they could probably get it that’s that’s tougher that what were the elders to the congregation, rally around you when your mom died or cage speak to that underside is that enough people did in they didn’t so I need to get back I’m just forgetting to mention things when my mom passed away she was actually disfellowshipped wow so the progression is my mother my call the start going to the divorce this is around the time my mom’s drinking my mom’s drinking problem is getting worse but it was always a problem is getting less I just never noticed it because I was a kid involved in my own sure in so have problems getting worse I’m thinking you started drinking because dad left you so I’m pissed off at my dad and bought drinking is now it’s no longer it’s where having congregation gatherings at the house and you know everyone comes over my moms inside the process having a my mom comes out waste so the brothers all trying to help because they know what she’s going to be trying to deal with the in it be nice to after so many sins of this happening they said you know what we love you want to work with you but we can’t have this continued habit you can’t have you intending to be like this about people and so they disfellowshipped and so she was disfellowshipped it was a few months is at least rip before she passed away and at the time when she did pass away I didn’t know why because we did all the news I I went to split shift I worked in the morning at work and work in the afternoon so between shifts I came home it was only 10 minutes away and I took a and I woke up in my sister-in-law screaming like running down the screening like what the hell are you stupid but she was loud so I got up and walked out and she had run into the backyard will be cool and I walked back there and as soon as I opened the door I see my brother my mom is light bang down the side of my brother is like half in the pool at about trying to get the CPR and like freaking out and his wife is freaking at and I just like I was in shock as I looked that I looked at the situation and just turned around and walked away as I was in shock and at I’m surprised myself to this day because being at that age but I think it was a shock as I walked away I walked inside the house and I dialed my thoughts and my boss pick up the failure and I said I can’t come in to work this afternoon I think my mom instead a she said you know okay no no do with that she she let me go course and then I called my friend at the time and I was like come over you and your mommy to come over I can’t be because by and by the time I called her I knew it was like my brother’s wife had commented in like we can’t get back the ambulance a company could help her so I that’s when I called my up my girl from the University to come pick me up now because I can’t drive over that and I copy it was just I was in shock it was kinda selfish but it wasn’t bad like with my brother but just that’s only way I can deal with it you they came to pick me up and I left and I just and I came back later but Dion wouldn’t call them the people in the ambulance I can think of many minorities EMTs yet that the EMTs they just like the Aussies just passed away and they took the they didn’t do any sort so I’ll talk to mind out over that so I didn’t know what time what caused it and I didn’t have to know because I just needed the prospect of process and she was gone you three doesn’t matter as much them and then I did find out just within the past year to my sister had been living away she was living across the country but I unite schools called called her and said mom and mom passed away and she came to where we were to to be with the family and for the funeral and everything and while she was that she took my mom’s diary in she apparently found in my mom’s diary of suicide that basically saying which in Evan when I found that out even before I found that out I had a field because everything is going in them i.e. I blame the organization not immediate it was years later that I blame him as she she passed away I lost my girl I suffered meetings I was depressed for a while and this lasted about a year and I was in meetings until I finally said you know what I know I need to get back in the right space I can’t be here in this house anymore when my mother is I need to go back to the meetings and he still believed sure in so I called my sister lived on the other side of the country and I said I want to I need to get out of here can I come with you and I’m coming back and she told me she said yes he can come to go back to the meetings of the before you do you need to go to the elders about what you can do and she said sister if it was actually very good because she set out to you here either way you but I need to know that if you really want to come back to the all and you know you’re serious about you and I said okay and that’s how you show in so I I was not only dating the scope but I’ve been smoking and not because I thought it was cool but literally the reason I started smoking was because I am at the restaurant I went that I was ticked off because everyone got smoke breaks whenever they wanted I only got my 215 minute breaks and whatever they left several illiterates I did I was in an so stupid I wasn’t even inhaling I would just like talk on it to make it look like a smoking second God but the stupid thing is witnesses and see me do it so when I went when I I knew didn’t see me because the elders had told they had asked me about that as well in so when I went to tell the others but I was doing I didn’t tell them that I had slept with the scout they asked me and I like but I did tell them I said but I would have been smoking and I quit and I quit and so I got through it was funny because they told me they said they sent me out like they always do they disgustedly brought me back in and they said they told me strata they said we don’t believe you’re very repentant but we do see a trace of repentance and because this was all probably brought on by depression from losing your mother were not going to start shipping which is going to release they were honest about it but they are more conscious than you are very right but I think the reason I like because I was afraid that if I told them the truth they with was sure to and so they they recruit me I called my sister and I said I went to them that are not in your approval tomorrow night when can I come out that in so we set up and I you over the next month and a half we got things ready my brother was moving away to none of us wanted to be in the house anymore and we sold off everything my mom’s old stuff. Other than sentimental wanted to keep sure we were all moving you are our separate ways and so I moved across the country and started a new chapter of my life at that point I missed okay if a second as I have been talking while until you have questions about something well I guess I have a question about your job had where was where was he when this all went down to have a habit of forgetting to mention things that that’s okay so I obviously mentioned multiple times in the military keeps he was deployed he was overseas why even have him write he had been since I was about 14 years old he had been overseas here at this point at that point in time it been gone for years he had went to this was all around the early 2000’s okay my mom passed away who six so from like 02.06 he was in Iraq and Afghanistan and back in Iraq than Korea them back in Iraq he was back he was was overseas the entire time at the time my mom passed away he had been in Korea for about a year and he was the one who told her he wanted divorce so they were literally when she died that divorce it only been finalized like a multiple because they had been going through the process of who gets water and you know of course moms to get the kids but what’s alimony and all the stuff so when she died I was only about three months away from turning 18 so my dad didn’t tell me like have to come because render 18 he asked me if I wanted to and I said no stated place I stayed with my brother in the understood he understood why was Matt I was an angry teen used of course my mother were never that close anyway I I was I was in a really bad place of course of about him anyway and of course I was depressed as well once I write something okay also I had a question about so your mom was disfellowshipped when she died if that carries a stigma you in the congregation so your icon as so how did how did the congregation responded to her death like which she was there a memorial was there any memorial manager this is so hard there’s a what what happens there I don’t even know she had good friends in the congregation oceans dispose of the course the brothers they wouldn’t do the memorial in the whole of because she passed away now this was in my arm as this was in the southern part of the United States at the time so that the big regions I can get away with saying that what you would call the Bible yet writes so course people a lot more stripped-down that I mean even witnesses were live now all way more liberal than they are in the southern United States the still witnesses still a cult but I’m so interested she passed away they wouldn’t do the memorial in the whole right because she was associate they didn’t do it at the thicket which you would call it the building that’s at the cemetery that one was done that and a brother gave a talk about half the congregation showed up because I literally had some people tell me like I remember one for the particular told me he said I love you I love you I love your mother so I hope you don’t take it will be at the funeral I just I’m not comfortable since she was discussed that she passed away in I was like okay whatever but I didn’t I was never argumentative with people I didn’t like it but I was walking instead so yeah I’m trying to think I want him thinking about that one right now myself at the US like now is the time we of times your choosing will be low point in my life to exercise write this since it I don’t know it just seems really do she is like but that’s what I was behind the about half the congregation and that yeah other half was just like well she’s dead and since the painful so will be they say you have the time to do that would always talk about how you go to a funeral or memorial or whatever and it’s not it’s not even just about that person but it’s about supporting the survivors and here is a freaking kid and a human 18-year-old kid you’ll have a hard man go to this thing in and support this kid they really do a terrible job of keeping people they just don’t rally around people at all it that’s really sad to me good for the hafted still had their humanity intact and went in and tried to support you where the 55th I don’t know man love is so conditional is just so is so conditional not unlike is nothing like Christ love you it’s it’s not even conditional on anything that matters is so technically it’s like technicality driven like well technically she was disfellowshipped even though she never did a damn thing to me and hurt anyone other than herself if you know as they saw it like come on man it is you it it it was pretty wild on but of course I was in my I wasn’t thinking these things at the time you still you believed in I was just I was in my own head dealing with my crap right you and you could understand because you saw the same technicalities in life that they saw probably you know to some degree because we all did they just there’s just the way our humanity is shut off by that doctrine it on different levels of is astounding to me you know every time I hear some new way that that that it was done a man on my own case of your wasn’t invited to my my dad’s funeral or memorial service and you just the way they act around that stuff is so silly in someone mentioned to me years later even though I moved across the country I still kept contact with some old friends and I remember somebody on this is actually new didn’t I’m nevermind I remember because I told I would tell people my story of course when getting to know them they were met with you all all these things that I told they knew that my mother was a witness she passed away during the time of the disfellowshipped and it was an older couple remember being at the dinner table with them and now my aunt had passed away and she also passed away but she was disfellowshipped, in so I was in a we were having dinner with them and then they had asked me something about my family and I said oh yeah I just had my out passed away in my cousin called me in so I was on the phone with my cousin in and I basically felt it was just being consoling because and I been through it myself and I told them I said you know what it’s it’s okay can you you’ll see your mother again and I’ll see mine again it’s it’s working to see them again and this couple I was at dinner with Dave the kind of looked at each other when I got off the phone so wife it was funny because they had to argue about it I did have to say anything the wife said well she said I’m glad you know it seems like it would good consoling that person looks at but the mothers with disfellowshipped when they died in open feedback by and the husband like flipped out it was like way wait wait wait wait wait a minute you know that this kind voice in his life that they died they died and paid for their sense we don’t know them in like they started going back and forth that it was crazy guys just this even her, it could be so will now this was our or five years after my mother passed away side moved a little bit but if is that it happened right after I would be really pissed off that’s not either so tone deaf that’s not the time to it’s not just bladder but if you have a upper and it also shows how silly the doctrine is because they can’t they don’t really know any of this you know the one hand you say that death does away with the of the sin but then if that’s the case then you know Hitler died in Adam and Eve died in so it’s a very selective application of how all this works so that they went over that it he was like well well learned and no wait a minute added many now say they send and sent man into death and in in gold killed been basically said that the difference but you hit the show I needed the body so stupid 000 in retrospect but now know so you talked about you said that you know in your is in your in your 20s so so I guess you so your mom is died in earlier 18 you go out to move move out with your sister and you kind of you are starting again and he said you know in your 20s or whatever the things vacillated a lot for you yet so how did how did things progress you after you went out there and moved in with your sister so I moved out to where I am now with my sister and not long now my sister and husband with the college because they were glad what was that you said they were both in college in college got so where we live now like you said witnesses are a bit more liberal students player in the College of Liberal yet you like the whole I’m in now I’m in a for a foreign language congregation and just about every elder official in just about every member of this congregation has been to college what the shocking proceedings article will be witness of God not not I’m from me there are plenty of people go would still be with us as I write this letter to the mulatto successor nurture yesterday records at the time and my sister’s husband at the time got accepted to grad school on the other side of the country so I really only lived with them in about six months before they had to move away and now she moved before she did she she was just like she was finishing up her degree here and risk and will look for work out there so she would hurt it was basically a year after typical she was going to and then I had to get my place which lasted very very briefly and then I went through another shocking. Which I was dating someone new at the time because my whole life ripples around women as is dating someone at the time I most my job so I could take my place and my sister had moved now so I didn’t have family to move in with you and then after I lost my job this sister her stepfather yet has stepfather convinced her to break up with he said he’s not working you can take care of you while you still thinking in so that ended so I cannot do so now I’m basically broken up with again in my whole life ripples around I don’t have a job site Place I ended up being homeless for about three months lightly early homeless and living on the street or the car literally found an abandoned house and slept in a tree house homeless’s other brothers and sisters exactly taking care of you where they know they were not why am when I was still going to know I wasn’t trying very hard I was going to the hole but not in service semi cell death is like I hear you’re homeless you’re not going out in service which still making some of the $50 sale yet so I started unit I have nothing else to do I couldn’t find work I I was able to keep a gym membership so that I had a place to go shower so at least I looked at him trying to get a job and so what I would do then as I said you know what I was at this point I had never will be dealt with my mother’s death I was about 20 years old so was a little over two years and she died and basically just like put it behind me moved on and so during these three months I was you know trying to look for work on getting more and more depressed and finally I remember one night I’m lying down in this tree house where I was sleeping and I just I pulled on channel and I started writing a letter to my mother in it was like 20 pages long of just everything that happened in my life since losing in the entire time writing it I’m sitting there crying upset and finally you like dealing with this release in in my own way and it’s like within a couple would like immediately after that you know I also prayed to Jehovah to help me to finally like to deal with my mother’s passing and some wanted to create a better life in so I did that one night the next morning I woke up and I went to the kingdom home and I went service and I and I started a new pattern of service every morning look for work in the afternoon could sleep my tree house and is still present but now that I was out in service to now the brothers wanted to take notice of try to help you out seriously there’s no words to describe looking back now there’s no words to describe how ridiculous cities yet they help with human how will but their children their charitable organization with tax-free status is now the other side of it I’m glad for it at this point because I had to do it myself I had to rely I thought I was relying on Jehovah but I had to rely on myself which looking back to Mike it was good for me in that it it always out in the end but it’s still not the right way to treat people and some of them will help but use and now they wanted to help now someone said who I noticed for the year he needs a roommate and he doesn’t pay that much in red so you know it won’t head if you copy of the first couple hearts so they connected me with this guy so I got a place to stay while I went to a just behalf how what you’re doing by doing that is their setting up the dynamic where will Jehovah provided because because so these are the blessings you’re getting for for you going out in service now like they they withheld help know you did what they wanted and then they help that is so evil but you know what I was sold on a hook line and think of just writing that you brother started calling me saying I don’t have a Job but in our current days with a black of you out mutual course they did Jehovah provide input in this was also all around the 0809 the stock market crash that’s why it was hard for me to find a new job yes on it was hard for everyone around 0809 it wasn’t because I wasn’t going to set this is because of the economy was an adult of anyway so that and I finally found another job will a few rounds of jobs in thinking about going to the local community college but going back all that but I eventually found another job and in that works out for a while and I was taking things seriously and I was always moving up in the congregation I was exhilarated I was working I had a place with this brother I was also reply nearing I was carrying the mics in the all starting to get all the privileges I was all the way up to train people praying at the opening (the meeting and that’s like it at least in my whole of the time that was like one step away from getting appointed as a ministerial segment so I’m I’m on the track I still believe I never not believe I just fell away for different reasons right right at this at that point anyway sometime right before Brenda become a seven and then Facebook stops my progress so you know how on Facebook or not basement you know you you will you go to website to look at something in the last all these permissions and you just don’t read it and click yes no yes it does whatever he so one night I gave one nightto give the opening Pratt and they said you know what on some of the beginning of the meeting said actually we need to do something else that I like what I’m excited about instead and then at the end of the meeting to brothers wanted to talk to me and April in the back room and they said you know Daniel people have brought to attention some posts you’ve made on Facebook it in like dirty jokes like will posted a daddy check my Facebook and the like don’t hate you not trouble with Justina we needed to talk to you and talk to you about it and they pulled up my Facebook page and showed it to me and I was I’ve always been somewhat somewhat vocal and reasonable and reasonable and I looked at them in with with absolutely no disrespect I said I’m sorry to you know how Facebook works because if you look at that it shows that I did not post that it’s on my wall but I didn’t post this is how X and they were like well and in and they would come in and they’re like okay so we understand you didn’t post in the light bulbs is if you’re this close to being a settlement you’re supposed to be an example for the whole show will not go so we do not have you do the press anymore when I take away from the discussion group but which is not have you do the press anymore I’m in will not have you been the mics for a while until like this is completely off your Facebook and in it sort of mono because people will say 07 and he does post this and that and I understood but I’m still frustrated because I’d worked so hard I wanted to be a settlement in the welcome email the one day so frustrated and deflated the time they just can’t let somebody walk up the stairs without tripping. Is normal thing to have stopped your progress for Roy wonder anybody ever makes it to Elder some freaking Christ to be another man winter and out in most usually a really awful thing you want your analysis and so that happened and I was upset but I wasn’t so discouraged I was going to be I just you know like well I’m in a take a break from trying for a while I’m just getting the disc and the garden service in be a pothole and I’m not been a push to reach out always thinks for a while since that holding back room for a while anyway so I slow down a bit and I started reading more I did want now I also decided I need to really get serious about this religion because I’ve always had questions unanswered questions I never doubted to the extent of maybe this is true but that is only as I can remember I had questions about things that I’m just not sure I like back to the five-year-old saying know my father put him into the government does always been some sort of question in my mind in another thing my dad taught me that I still hold onto to this day is a particular way of thinking where no matter what belief I’m taking on I always square with the question of what if I’m broke to find what what what does that lead to and so I used this I believe completely different things now than I used to but for instance just an example of that the blood issue the way I used to swear it is okay believes the Bible says we don’t take blood we should take blood what if I’m wrong about well if I’m wrong about that I die but I still lived a good life and good will still know that I’ve done my best to him and that I only did it out of my belief in him so I’ll still be resurrected so it’s okay, okay he doesn’t mind you look you are the whale be that that’s how used to swear one of my boys and I still swear my beliefs roughly the same way but to come to different conclusions and in some things I don’t swear it that way and we will get to that but so I just decided at the time of the accident got this to be only use for these extra things right now can use that extra time to really start to study and answer these unanswered questions in anyone who’s undertaken this endeavor can attest to when you start to study the witnesses material to the and makes less and less sense and calls more and more questions you’ll you’re not supposed to read this letter to reading only the witnesses material and but you know Charleston’s Russell did say that you can’t read the Bible itself you have to read it with studies in Scripture quotes and accents right so I undertook this endeavor and it raised more and more questions it didn’t answer my questions and what what I initially did was I said you know what I believe I don’t want to have these questions I’m going to stop this site. The endeavor cognitive dissonance is called this in at its finest absolve so I stop that and then just forgot back in the swing of things and I just became I didn’t push for more I got back to what I was running the mics again and I was happy with that you know I do need be so that I missed you I can run the mics I can go in service speaker witness in and live a good life you I don’t need to be a seven or an elder I I want to serve Jehovah by raising a family by raising my children and that’s the routing for a while and I was looking at a new job and at a retail store with pretty much all witnesses except for one person is one person that was witness and he would always question us about things so I would witness to him or I would try to witness them in ways that make sense because now that I’ve done some studying I know more things that don’t make sense I had a few classes in college identity career anything at this point but had a few classes so this things unlike evolution is real what she had God created through evolution so I don’t believe the southern crap about evolution not existing so when this guy was asking questions and I try to witness to them I would hit other people giving the West in my opinion the West witnesses it would be he would ask a question like well why don’t you guys had beards because he had a really nice bit it’s not a super doctrinal things that matter but the get the West answers from these other people and so I would purposefully be like like I remember one brother told him you know we tend because it’s on it because I forget what his explanation was really dumb it was something like we don’t because of the way the world looks at them yada yada and in you know we want to be above reproach and it is okay that might be okay and less and less sure talking to someone who has a beard you’re just telling and he has reproach now is what you said you lately so I remember because of that I stopped shaving polite and registered my bed in and my boss my boss was a witness and he’s like a are you doing that so that you can prove that witnesses can have bids and I was like these idiots keep giving the sky the West witness on the planet is shook his head and walked away so it was like they were accurate what they said though I mean it’s a it’s a bad witness but that’s that’s what they believe they were in it so I was going through a phase of being rebellious not from my beliefs but from the way they were handles that makes sense and then at that point’s I started I was reading a lot more was listening to a lot of podcasts some of them that maybe witnesses should Joe Rogan podcast Sam Harris THINGS like that I was reading a lot more books that were known witness books they perspectives yes and so for the first time in mice in my life I started open the question the witness and not to other witness I in my own mind like actually saying well what if this is a true and so I had tried to do this study project to get to believe more in that it may become more questions. So now I’m saying well what if this is a true and I’m going to the meetings I’m at home studying my own not apostate material just other material science psychology things like that and I came to the conclusion that I thought about was thoughtful and I said you know what his long as I’m going to the whole it doesn’t matter what I read it doesn’t matter what man from these other books because if I’m continually going to the hole and putting that in my mind of course I’m going to I want to examine this on its merits simply on its merits in order to do that I need to stop going to meaningful in order to give it a fat chance because I’m just plugging this information to my as I think by this time I had learned about propaganda and what that it’s right and I met my brother and I having a conversation I told him I said what we getting at the meeting as propaganda in and I told her that I don’t mean it’s bad I just mean it’s his lungs were constantly plugging it into law brain course would need and he’s like yeah he’s like guys like if you want to lose weight you put yourself in the propaganda about healthy eating it’s propaganda government so that’s what I dislike that you know what I want to examine the merits and stop meetings for a while so I started the other day I stopped going to the meetings cold turkey started to study these other things in I was finding more satisfying artist my questions but I was asking very superficial questions that in the end didn’t I wasn’t plugging I was digging into the history of the organization I was digging into the blood oak like the things that matter to me now I knew nothing about the child abuse these were just simple questions about how well it works and whether this belief squared with that squared with known psychology and science so it was allowing me to I was still indoctrinated because I still believe I just said I believe this is the truth that is wrong about certain things that’s the conclusion I came to at the time this is the truth with a little falsehood in the cognitive dissonance is a bit revolving to reflect this and this is got organization but it still currently run by Mansell course that something’s wrong that at but I was still not going to meetings in it was around this time so might also the time was a witness as I said I guess she knew I wasn’t going to meetings he knew I was like studying more science and second psychology stop and this was a man who was he was incredibly intelligent he is he had his faults too but he was very intelligent and he was a very good salesman and salesman are good at and what I mean by good salesman is a good salesman someone who can convince you to buy something in a way that like buy into the concept of soul is a good salesman a good salesman doesn’t convince you to buy something he makes you think it was your decision to buy that makes you feel like it’s your idea that immigrants sales the sharing enthusiasm for something so used to sharing his enthusiasm and if you can get you to become enthusiastic than I did go in and he was he was also very intelligent he did know a bit about psychology and so he pulled into his office one day after work is to have a conversation as we did a lot. That type of loss was very close to the suite we what we talked little different to so it will be at the top and he was asking me like I wasn’t going to the meetings what was going on and I explained it to them things like you know that I was studying like there’s no way that’s what happens if you believe in the end it was right around the time there was an article saying like a flood could have happened in the types of species now a ball from those types in it so I got into the whole supercharged evolution argument within but not as much an argument just exchanging ideas and what he did it was he took all of that and he ignored it and he got at me he got my emotions he started digging and I could feel it welling up inside of me was just weird like I can remember every detail but that the questions you are asking what pointed at my emotions of course and he he told you like asking and I could feel something like welling up in my text like an emotion like about to come out and not he asked me he said why is it that you’re so upset right now is when he asked because he could see I was getting upset and I was just like I did not surmise got my mouth shut shook my head in he said what he said what are you blaming the organization for what is the organization done to him like in that instant I thought about but I held it in because I didn’t want to I felt like it was rude to say and I was also getting emotional by self and kept asking kept pushing at me until finally he asked me what time I dispensed out if booking killed my mother it was an emotion I didn’t even know I had he was intelligent enough to pull it out of me but it was also very minute looking back when he looks at it that way on not because what that did the moment I said it I cried for a moment and then I felt so much better in and I sort of left myself again: dissonance and I said this religion didn’t kill my mother why was I holding onto that looking back now of course it did in now that now because of the time I didn’t know she committed suicide by just because the debt now that I knew she committed suicide she was disfellowshipped from the Army community she had husband’s overseas yeah I mean as soon as you said that she was disfellowshipped for drinking my first thought was why is she drinking it a lot to begin with and a person who is depressed and drinking doesn’t need to be cut off from the only people that they know they need help right now I mean there can be an intervention and things like that and sometimes you have to cut people off to get them to take the help of blah blah blah but I said that’s a whole another euro thing that is done professionally in the right way that is not what this fellow shipping someone and shaming them and cutting them off that’s that’s horrible right and so in after that but I don’t know like I don’t know how I came to the conclusion now that he didn’t kill it because of course like I felt it in the moment and him and I talked a bit and then by the end of the conversational like names and didn’t I don’t know why was holding and in a wide felt that course of the time I also didn’t know she can. Make that’s why fell for it and in and that was like a reawakening and I said you know what I can do this they did some things right the wrong about the club the wrong about evolution but overall it’s a good religion it’s a good way to leave role there right about most things so it took so I can do this so like not go for long like Elkton stereo 70 that I can feel what to get back to reading and so I started going back to the meetings literally two weeks two weeks after this conversation with my boss I met the woman that would become my wife and what finally woke me up was my wife but hated would hate the fact that this is what finally woke me up was getting married was what fully woke me up was after we got married I started serious good boy I’d always known I wanted to get married I always knew I wanted to have kids in the family plot you know when you’re in your teens in your 20s you don’t really think too much about it you know it’s something you want and that’s kind of the just of it we got married and I started seriously thinking about if and when I have kids how I handle such a way certain situations and that’s what woke me up I can definitely see that what what are some situations that they got you to think about the very first one was meeting it will also when we got married is roughly the time that I switched over to foreign-language competition which I think that has also played a part of me waking up because it’s sort of the same idea that I’m in the Fords foreign-language I’m not really plugged into the indoctrination and absolutely when you serve if you can get a break from it I don’t know if you know who Kristian and Katja are yes there is to say what you said yes and yes okay so I think that there just for the listener who doesn’t know there a young couple that that that left the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses that are and they do a lot of YouTube videos and I believe that one of the things that help them wake up was they went to a foreign-language congregation and suddenly they weren’t being hit with the same level of indoctrination because they couldn’t quite understand it as well and I know that for my wife and I taken that 18 months off to pay off the taxes that we owed and getting away from the indoctrination that was a big deal for us it’s like if you can get away from it for a while your brain finally starts processing stuff at end and making you think about it and then it becomes a problem so how did that work for you going to the foreign-language variation and then you with all the thinking about the kids as well will I think the first the first thing that hit me so that I thought you know floods wrong the wrong about evolution whatever stupid things they don’t matter it’s it’s know the way my sister describes that we talked about it is we all have a shelf everyone of us has a shelf where we can say I believe this this unlimited this and put it on the shelf and just ignore that but eventually you put something too heavy on the shelf and it breaks the shelf can only hold so much or can only hold certain size things so the flood evolution these are the little things they’ll fiddle myself perfectly fine we were doing a study is about three years ago because it is not long after we got married and in that had to do with blood the blood topic and I was going through the study and a cleaner you the Bible says this is the Scripture is this it makes sense I believe it and then I started thinking to myself if we what would I do my wife got into an accident tomorrow what I do if we had children and they were in a situation what they needed blood and I came to the conclusion that even though I believed it I would follow it because I absolutely couldn’t my wife died if I did I couldn’t let my children directly had them I couldn’t I would feel responsible even though I didn’t physically stop them I would feel like I had the power to make sure they go needed medical hat and I didn’t make sure they can itself and in fact I would be killing myself in the that either sitting I couldn’t do Ya I believe that’s what the Bible says once but it’s absolutely couldn’t do that in it it it hit me that I don’t know how to describe it but what would it made me eventually do was study more into it and the more I studied the less evidence I found all the witnesses being right about that and then I took my own thought process I mean that there’s so many things that effectively I don’t you know who Sam harasses aliens okay so I’ve been listening to him for years now to and so I’ve got a lot of lines of reasoning a lot of things I say now like a pretty much direct quotes from the in the Sam Harris call now because I just I wanted to study more I said well if I care believe this and not do it but I can’t like do it and not believe it either so I started studying that subject more and I started to find that the Scriptures and the Bible that was simply talking about eating blood but yes I know they make the argument that of course it doesn’t mention transfusions available back then put my argument would be when it’s supposed to add anything to the law and that is a strict example of taking something the law says and adding to its it’s a very in my viewpoint now is that this is a very pharisaical religion that’s that the local dishes are single religion to me anyway is very pharisaical because they had so much to it and you know so I started studying I found little evidence in the Bible I started thinking my hold regular well what if I’m wrong you point right myself if I’m wrong about the like whatever into good like a cat but if I’m wrong and I let my child I owe my wife time they died in a dumb reason that effectively met them myself I can’t do that I can’t believe that I am and I looked more into it and describing the whole process is can be kind of odd but I basically where I’m at now is a I don’t believe that’s what the Bible says I don’t believe that’s what God wants if there even is a gold as I’m better now but that but what I do believe honesty is I’m beyond the questioning of what if I’m wrong and beyond and I think we all have to come to that point where I can’t think of wood right now but I’m I can think of it but does they talk about standing up for what you believe that this is a word for it but I can think of right now but to have to truly have that quality so they talk about that and they also talk about doing what God says if you really have that quality and you believe that something is wrong you do it anyway because God says to do it you don’t have a: so for instance if I don’t believe it’s right morally I don’t care what in second gas detector so I don’t care at this point I no longer What the Bible says what God wants when it comes to that because if I have integrity to say oh God wants it so won’t do it I’m only doing it for one of 2° as I want the reward because I’m afraid that’s not so now it’s like this is morally wrong in if you really exist “and if you really want me to do that to my child one I’m sorry but thought you well and nothing to do with the foreign accent it I I began the progression when it came to blood as he did ask Abraham to sacrifice his son and then at the end was like psych and that’s where some have resorted comes in a is a quote if you go on his boat just waking up THE very very first episode is not actually an episode it’s something you pulled out from a debate he had been told how to speak to Christian I’m sure I’m sure you’ve had at least some quotes from it and in that sense that the God of the Bible he says I’m sorry to break it to you but Christianity is not a religion that repudiates human sacrifice, Christianity is a religion that celebrates human sacrifice specifically one as though it were the men and you get deeper into it and you realize the Bible is actually known against human is nothing in the Bible wishes that go to tests human sacrifice is only one time and the only reason according to the Bible that you detest it is because the sacrifices were made to mold back in the because the I know exactly what you’re talking about because he goes from the egos from same from requiring a human sacrifice of from Abraham and then saying no no I’m just kidding to celebrating sacrifice the sacrifice of youngest daughter to do testing it because firstborn children are being sacrifice the moment that ultimately requiring a sacrifice in order for him to be allowed to give the rest of humanity which data the concept of salvation about if she refuses to forgive us without sending some down here and killing them and what kind goats that is a really wet/easy exists in Romans as I think it’s in Romans it says that without blood God cannot forgive so I’m going to see this will not allow up there is a podcast called the Bible says what all the I just encourage you to listen to that of a book about right now the site is called the Bible says what and this man calls different pastors and there’s some things that he brings out from the Bible that I didn’t realize or even that I didn’t realize were there that I had to look up and holy crap all yeah there is there are things in there that I did not know where in there the did not fit into the narrative that I was provided my whole life that as of begun to look at and I can often look that a camera where it is but some of the it was in Romans but anyway yeah it’s some there there are some things when you start really thinking about it I mean like you said Jephthah’s daughter what we were always taught is that she wasn’t actually killed and burned sacrifice and that she was just dedicated to Temple service but see I have up on my phone call the Bible by the new version and it has about like 50 different translations of the Bible on so almost every single other translation as they owned adult all yeah it’s very clear what happened to her only in the New World translation does it say they did obeisance to driver something more because why would they want someone state that you coming to said exactly what was going to happen to the first became a minute words and then apparently followed through and that was okay to God but whatever did you know all details but the yeah it’s some it is you know when you start opening your eyes to all that or you know let let’s take let’s take blood for example in the witnesses view of blood if if blood is the symbol of life but yet you would avoid giving someone a blood transfusion in order to save the life that you are putting the symbol above the actual thing it symbolizes will let a person die so as to protect the symbol of the life yes which was all nonsense you’ve probably seen it it’s a video of great friends in Spain answering questions read his book and he break but that example he brings up the example of the wedding ring yes as you give up your marriage would you give up the wedding and someone told me send in such a Christian freedom but I read that okay I have read that it yeah it’s been a while floods private in their habit I think that line of reasoning was also on JW fax.com and that’s where I thought at first when I was researching the whole the whole blood issue is one of the first things that I started to do research because I was pretty interested in that and what I let my wife die over that our no problem let myself die but let my wife that would’ve been a problem as the sound like were on the same way that you absolutely has lived in any know if you if you read it in acts 15 where you know Paul is discussing the blood if if you read the context of it which witnesses always there on other religions for not reading the context of things if you read the context of that of those verses there was a problem between the was the weather promise when the Jews and the Gentiles or something like that is a problem between two groups and he was just basically saying look to donate blood and just appease them you like here you do this and you do that let’s all get along and let’s move on that’s what he was saying it was never some big sweeping rule that was to you know go deep into the future and impact blood transfusions it wasn’t wasn’t about that like you said that’s adding to him it was clear what it said and then you’re adding to this and then you can get all science see it and take technical and taking a blood transfusion you’re not digesting the blood you’re not eating the blood in any way it’s basically an organ in your body that you’re transplanting just like you a transplanted kidney or anything else the blood itself is basically an Oregon and but you know they don’t want to hear that they’d rather be rather sacrifice people to the doctrine that was created a long time ago aerobic eligible channels yes and their pregnant wives who die in pregnancy and childbirth know it’s it’s it’s horrible horrible and insert like that that was the first and main catalyst for me I had already been in my first you know legal study work to get out you know about the flood and evolution all the things at that time I had already had a disagreement with shunning but it was one of those things where I felt like that that’s the rule however I don’t have to do it and no one needs to know what right but now that now it’s starting to build because shunning is becoming a allotted thing because I’m realizing that without shortening the literal doesn’t even matter fact notables without shunning old to give way applications get heavy admit very considers that and then the last thing at this point I realized that and I said you know what I can do this but the only thing in my crazy in my the only one who thinks about this the one who realizes this so I started looking for and I can already the extent of the summer and I can John see this channel and I came upon a copy of the names are now the old couple is a little bit crazy but funny how my Kim Mike and at first I did not like that it is at all but they grew in the group will be at first but big room and started finding these things in it and it wasn’t about searching out more problems is about finding out that I’m not crazy that I’m not the only one that thinks this way oh absolutely that’s it in this is a huge moment when you realize you’re not crazy yeah I literally went to therapy one time I I I decided I needed to talk to a therapist I went one time I started pouring my heart out and you are talking about some of the religious stuff or whatever and she was like will you not crazy that sounds weird and I like you know what I’ll need therapy were done with just one person to tell me I was not crazy in this world all I needed was one person to validate me and then of course you know when on some forums and things but it’s a big moment when you realize that you’re not the only one that sees something a certain way right so I mean that was I was doing it for that purpose and at that point I found out about not just the child beside head about that before but not believed it and I think that when I was about 12 or 13 was around that age there was something like those in a Nightline report about some it wasn’t kind’s critique is Candace Conti’s most recent but it was about a child abuse cover-up in the witness and I remember Anderson probably and often I remember that it was coming on TV but we didn’t watch it I didn’t believe that I thought was a hit job by apostates and cats right but now this is around when I’m going through this process now is around 2015 so you know what I came across in 2015 was not just one person being abused and built the congregation alone possibly covering up I found out about the Australian Royal commission and its I think that’ll put me over the edge did you because I I did I was sitting here at work in this office on it right now and because they’re in Australia so was that we had time and I sat back here and while I was doing my work I had it on and I was listening to it and I was just floored at the fact that it was 1001 it was in the 1700 cases in the thousand and one alleged perpetrators and not one of which had been reported to the police that there were a lot of amazing points made in the ARC in it and that’s what put me over the edge in it that I said I’ve got to do something because like when I immediately realized I didn’t want to be a witness anymore I felt bad because I was newly married to the best woman on earth was a believing witness and I just felt bad I felt like I wish I’d known this before is now like if I leave I ruin her life unit sorry it just had me a little bit says it’s a very emotional thing it’s the very tough place to be a intentional thing is she so damn small I feel it I want the I wanted to wake up to him but I also know I can’t force it she needs to be ready when she’s ready if it happens this but I am so I realizes and I said you know what I’m going to tell the truth is I can’t lie to I cannot just have this is a charade in the number of Americans based on a lie and exit but I also know if I just put it all out that that’s not going to go well you to search I started slowly letting information in I printed off the ARC printed off the whole of the Leica of paper recorded such hundred pages of something like that I printed off the whole thing put it in the binder stuck in my bookshelf as I read through myself said she’s can see this one day and then the first thing I told him glad to do it slowly was about the blood I told I called her one evening I said some catch and we sat down and I told her I said I want you to know that I recently changed my mind about something I need to let you know because-and I said I didn’t agree with the organization’s stance on blood transfusions and Jesus she sat then and just looked at me she knew I was in a talk like she didn’t look surprised which told me that she did look surprised she discredit was looking up and letting me speak and I said I don’t believe the stance on blood transfusions I said I told her I said I will do whatever you want I will respect whatever your wishes are whether I agree with him or not I’m asking that you do the same for me if something happens to me I don’t want anyone to stop the doctors from doing what they have to do I don’t want any witnesses in the hotel room coming in the hospital room until like that process is done and she agreed and she said okay and I left it at that for the moment because it knowing it has to be like slow drip sort of thing and then like a week or two later and we were sitting in our apartment complexes a hotel we were sitting in the hot tub and she asked me and that’s what I was “I didn’t want to have to bring it up again I wanted had asked me and she asked me some like what brought you to that conclusion what made you change your mind and I went through the whole thing I went through Ray friends as example of the wedding ring I went through the fact that it’s only talking about eating blood and that I feel that seeing a pharisaic to add on to that you in it was a very good conversation it seemed to go very well and at that point I told her I said I will to I want to respect your wishes if you don’t agree with me but honestly I’m telling you right now if something happened to you I would like to die and she just thought a lot and she said okay and then the next day I had to get something out of the pass and I opened up a wallet and what her blood clot is normally it was gone so I was happy about that is very happy about that I don’t know if since she’s gotten a new one and but I know like she took it out at least at that time maybe she took it out she needed to get someone new to the assignor I don’t know but other since then I haven’t seen it in her wallet which is good to so I started out slow like that I eventually I I took that binder of the PARC and I had it I was reading it in bed in I read some to you know she’s just a man people make mistakes I can’t believe this could happen but you know it’s still human and humans mistakes she is what we would call the waiting Job attitude yeah yeah yeah a lot of apologists who is imperfect men and so which is what I was for a long time I need to but what do I think the good thing about that is if you’re an apologist then you recognize something’s wrong you have every everything I need to apologize if you’re and apologists the right thing just hasn’t come up yet but thought it at least in my point of view made but that’s how I choose to be sure that means the right thing hasn’t come up yet to completely change your mind so I’m glad for that and since then we’ve had a lot more conversations and I told her at this point it’s the most recent conversation we had is when I was finally able to put it all out those about 34 months ago now she’s asking me questions like I told her like I’m on a journey I’m reevaluating everything I believe all type of messaging you in on this journey and about 34 months ago unit she brought it up again asked me like and I basically told I said at the point now that is what I told etc. the point now where I know this religion is not the truth it’s not like the it’s not run by gold like authorities and I even questioning his existence I don’t even know if I believe in him at this point that I told us that but what I do know is that if there is a gold and if he’s worthy of my worship then it doesn’t matter if he’s worthy of my worship and is gold that judges me based on my hot site even though I might be wrong about an existing and I’m doing everything I can to be the best person I can I’m doing this because I want to know what’s right not doing it because I hate the religion in it was that it was a very good conversation the way it played out was she knows I believe in this religion she knows I’m questioning God’s existence not that I’m definite yes that questioning it and I I did make a commitment to I said I will know disassociate myself religion because I don’t I know what that means I know what happened to you I do I know the consequences in the congregation the way people will treat you I don’t care about the consequences to me I was nothing my sisters and her witness able my brother is I lose my brother and as much as I love him that’s his choice by lose him a well but but that’s the only thing I present at the my wife is she loses her nephews coming over whatever she wants because Wyrick insisted that the children be in-house but the apostates are she visited Cedar respect and admiration people obligation so I know what it means that is like to listen to this disassociate myself in fact I’ll be at every meeting with you on your meeting but I can’t attend I don’t attend Sunday meetings because of my work schedule is about the at every meeting icon with you what I decide because you’re my wife and I will keep up with software everyone else but I want to be honest with you in it was an emotional conversation. But she appreciated it and she’s she’s according I’m working now you know the job I have I just started another business on the side and she’s also me even if she knows she needs to be like she most me with more I transcribe by them if we it’s all over the our relationship is basically perfect in every way except the fact that I no longer believe she does it in a manner new relationships that sounds kind of like the. Thing to say but that’s how I feel sure you will I mean that’s is pretty big of her it’s a big of you to continue the façade for her that’s your guess I want to say is the relationship has two people who were currently being very willing to give to each other you are willing to give of your authenticity here to set some things aside to continue if aside to support her and she is continuing to ill be a loving you good partner to you and not to hold against you the fact that you don’t really believe anymore which is that’s pretty big for a witness because witnesses are had tea like that is that you jamming it just shows I heard you what is what I see in this whole story really is your amenity was never stripped and neither is hers you both have your humanity intact your basic your love that that that kind of stuff is still there I know how to describe it now if unconditional love yes it is the time in my life yes even my mother’s love is conditional yeah unconditional love for the first time in my life and honestly saw only the people at the mall yet my work my workmates know exactly where I start my wife that is exactly what my sister knows exactly where I start only the only other person doesn’t know where I stand up people at the funeral and my brother you in only reason my brother doesn’t is because it I refuse to speak about that subject with him as I don’t want to lie to him but I also don’t want to lose him and of course if I do I do it’s his choice not mine but but is still not preference your preferences it’s just that I don’t like to just don’t speak about it to them so that I don’t have to lie to the fact that I understand that basically well I have to say many like I I want to see your wife live in freedom and I and I and I hope someday she can wake up and be right there by your side is this even if you don’t believe wholeheartedly the same I hope she can get out of something that is kind of toxic especially if it if it really impacts are on but I don’t mind believe in God that’s I am quite out of bed or just I don’t agree with the honestly the main things if they got rid of something the blood issue and they fixed the the that that the way they protect children I would be okay sure it would be a façade of like you know what I’m choosing to believe in God and the rest of this is just this is a religion as a tool to set right into the first three things that absolutely yeah the small problems of course you remains ones that come in for me but I think what I what I was yet you know what to say that I think that the fact that that she has remained in has allowed you to to see and feel what is a beautiful thing and unconditional love you maybe even for the first time ever I I don’t know but I think maybe you said that but that’s that’s a beautiful thing to come from what could have been a very ugly thing that I could’ve gone very badly and ends I don’t know I do think that it’s great that you although she still in she’s unconditionally loving you and your unconditionally loving her even though you don’t agree with a lot of things she stands for and I just I don’t know I just think that’s a beautiful thing that’s that that can exist even in the midst of something that they can be so harmful and so you hurt so many people were talking happy for you for that reason the though and I appreciate that on the only thing sometimes I feel like maybe she’s in a bit of denial only because like I made it very clear that I’m like one example of you made it very clear that I’m I’m questioning God’s existence not that I don’t believe (questioning it now still times where one was sitting down for a meal she’ll ask me to write books and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that and I’m happy to pray for us I just if it were me I will I would think like well if you’re questioning his distance I’m not been ask you to pray for pray to buses me and it just makes me think sometimes like maybe there is a trace of denial in the but I tried to result in as possible not have called conversations again but just slip things and so that she knows now like I’m still don’t believe that’s the still questioning on yeah yeah she makes yeah you know it could be denial of his think about it could be denial they could just be that article that she just knows I’m questioning it and that I’m not like I do believe in God is questioning so why would that be a problem trying to like just thinks differently that the origin this route it’s been so routine for her she just does it and you do your and you do it your she requests that you do it you know what she’s just not really thought about that aspect of it because for her that so foreign right yeah a lot of reasons it can be but you are right to be could also be it could be a level denial items I’m as interesting and never thought about how much denial what my wife was in denial when it when I do what I was so openly questioning me she couldn’t deny my questions my questions were pretty direct that I wasn’t good about keeping my mouth shut but some thought I never will I wonder if she was in any denial about how I was really feeling at the time I probably was in denial myself about how was feeling at the time I’m still in denial about some things I imagine a minute I still feel young and sexy but I know Max bottles well you know some things are better than I had profit you are there anyways so I mean I know myself I’ve been out now for three years and something recently hit me that that I never really thought about and driving is a process we all go through me no matter how long you’ve been outside the organization it seems like people still find things that as part of their personality or are many ways that they look at the world that are little difference and some just wondering I get are the is there anything today that you kind of struggle with your being where you are right now it’s a it’s almost like I’m 30 years old and I’m just now finding out who I really am of us in this because like I realized recently I remember being about 14 years old I was visiting my aunt and uncle at the time and learned I was 16 and my uncle was asking me about college I planned on going to college so that I could get a different job at the time I was a believer in the witnesses of course I said no this is my on my downside is no witness and he said Michael says no I don’t know I just can’t imagine is what I told him once you know I’m okay with simple by commercially happy with simple life I don’t need much more than what I have I’m okay just being me and then whatever Wi-Fi shines in us having a simple life and my uncle told me he said you know I just can’t imagine that is like I have to always be trying to get ahead I Feel like I’m not getting ahead in at the time it was just like England you’ll different whatever but the older I get and now that I’m not a full believer and not anymore I realize no way I am actually very on this vicious deep down it was just the out of me for the majority of my life I was told that I shouldn’t be ambitious I’m right there with you I am about goals like Malik I would not imagine like I’m in a position now where I have a Job that I absolutely love yet I still want to do more and it’s not out of not being happy is just the idea that I don’t ever want to be a slave to one thing and even though I love this job if it’s the only thing I have going on that I’m a slave to it so I’ve started my business on the side and inside women I have a good job at playing pays you know not quite 60 is but it’s a decent paying job I don’t need another business like one of my doing this and it’s because this this is something that’s always been in me but I know the fully explore a let out like thinking back I know it was always because when I was 13 years old I had my business when I was 13 years old I didn’t just mow one of my neighbors lines I mowed all of my needs loans to the point where I could do it all in one of my friends that was my age what to me I charged like 20 bucks to mow the lawn and I would give him 15 so he could do some and I can do more so is a little on your this this is always been in my personality but I for most of my life I I beat it out of myself because of what I was sure I said no and I need to keep it simple so that I can do this this and this instead sick now I I have ambitions I have there’s more to me and I let myself see and I’m still finding that things today are you going to find those for a long to become that show this to him and I haven’t even had the experience of leaving like you guys have to sure even when she leaves you find out more about self home for sure for sure use as you do you have any so you can’t you’re not able to fully leverage your choosing not to fully leave to support your wife right and that could I mean that’s an ever evolving discussion in that could change down the road sure together beside that but also decided to not sure do you have anything right now that you want to do her wish you could do that you can’t’s right now I don’t know if that’s a fair question or not but seems to like and it kind of interesting one there are other things that you’re you’re feeling yourself drawn to that you can’t explore in life I guess right now because you there are certain things you have to obviously keep on the down low on not to be honest with you not really I like to spend Wednesday nights at home alone with my wife instead of surrounded by or the other people commuting but and the other thing what are you looking forward to battling holidays and things like that is anything like that appeal to you the holidays not really I mean if we had the kids I would want them to experience have you I’ve never felt like it was missing out on the holidays and what I do and experiences I want to have article to my wife to my wife about it and she’s down I want to travel more and I want to like I’m in a position now where like one promotional way all on my side business going successful away from having money to be able to get back to be able to create something that affects all the that helps other people like to show you had a project water it’s a charity that builds wells in impoverished areas these I want to get involved with something like that and in not just by giving them money by saying you know what business is going well, take a month off from my job and if they don’t give it to me and screw the joke of the business is going well but Sigma will help build these wells will help you know do something that affects other people because another problem I had growing up as a witness is the idea that it’s going strong to take care of everything and it’s not up to us like don’t worry about spending time a charity spend time and separates the hope will fix all that stuff is like know whether he even if he exists I’m sure God was responsible for what we did with the lives you might imagine showing up to to go if he does exist imagine trying out and saying what did you do with your life while I worked at took on my family and I make money so disappointing you like were in America when the richest country on that howl multiple meeting are just one of the richest countries are like all our impoverished people. Over jet then reach people in Africa or other countries like if we make any anything more like we do going to be held responsible by gold for making all over the place and if he doesn’t exist then all the more reason for us to make up all over the place” yeah that’s that’s that’s why is I want us to do something and not just throw money at it but go out into something you want to experience that I am and experience them on vacations and stuff to will mainly like I want to be able to do something that makes me feel that what I used to feel when I went out field service now I understand that you like 10 times more limited essay on because of something that a lot of people don’t think about you’ll buy starting businesses and things like that and I’m not saying that everything capitalist is good but you are helping people by employing people and things like that it’s not the same as going in drilling wells in Africa that’s a beautiful thing yet to be able to do as well but said to be to have I think that one thing that we were never taught to have because we were kept away from the world that we we were in and we were taught to see everything is so bad as as we sometimes lack of appreciation and gratitude for what were able to do and you know are not also were also not supposed to take glory for ourselves or whatever but I mean you’re helping to employ people that’s a beautiful thing you’re helping people feed their family or even just doing this podcast right now I can guarantee you just by putting yourself out there you’re going to help people because there people out there who are in a you hear this that’s Manna me there’s not a lot of people who are in who have the guts to do what you’re doing right now and I dare see you there are other people in my situation I guarantee all I know there are a lot of people in your situation for sure but I listen to either they went posted a podcast for a while but I used to listen to the particle boys all yeah love them that the hilarious and fun-loving is put in a new one just so you know I did I was this week but I listen to no one with wife Margaret is this is a somewhat similar situation except if I understood correctly is what is the net quite as much of my work is right for what he believes but it’s it’s a very simple so I guarantee you there are other people you say you know that’s my situation yes and they need to hear stories like yours and Wi-Fi that what They need to and that’s why one UM pop puppy for my own sanity is to talk to someone about these things and is across the people who go to the same thing yeah yeah and you’re going to help somebody else feel like they are not alone like they are not crazy and ill that’s that’s an amazing thing to be able to do that to be able to really help somebody because it’s there are many lonelier places in life than to be stuck in a Colts to not believe I do think you’re the only person who sees what you see and you know sometimes and I can speak from my own experience to even have a wife or a spouse or her family who doesn’t see what you’re saying either you know that’s really hard place to be but I think it’s beautiful that that you’ve been able to explore that on your own and and it’s beautiful that your wife is supportive of you know even through this because that can go badly sometimes you it’s being around other people and still feeling the Lamisil unit one of us feelings and I don’t get that very much but up one thing I did want to touch on and help us wealthy and Colombian mercilessly and as you have to be is am I did say in the beginning that I’m not sure yes I’m and I notices this and THAT’S about people or some I wanted to touch on the people who are not witnesses in in may not understand what you and I to that all when it comes to the Jehovah’s Witnesses at least that is actually multiple layers yes so to some degree I actually am I’m for the witnesses you’ll understand this I’m the brother who doesn’t come to every meeting because on material materialistic and best of mitral that’s not what I really am but that’s who I am to the title talk I get so my sons completely know but I’m went with the witnesses there is an endless level in groups this is out yet even though you’re inside the witnesses will not at all the meetings so you’re the upper oh so you’re at all the meetings will not office assignments are not alike we also your mail in order tiny like we also your out and I’m sure it goes all the way up to the top while told not to go in and bought a new member like we also your help I’m sure it goes all the weight so that you still a level of we are we are still affected by that to the degree that we don’t have close relationships in the whole partly because of me it’s not because my wife she’s ever camping away right now but she’s that every meeting she’s in service over time but that has been as she people have taken a step back from since we’ve been married even before I start to believe the way I do now because I’m not that I’m not in service as much as people would like the unit so there is that level of shunting that still exists not only robust but other people experience as well is always someone who may not be shunned but is on the upper when you’re said that’s a fantastic point because the others organizationally sanction shining your for people who are disfellowshipped or disassociated like a wife and I did right but then you have there are plenty of people out there who have just quote faded and tried to walk away who are shunned there are people who just our regular at the meetings like yourself who get shunned light or whatever you want to call it where they can still say hi to you but they let you like you’re just there you know because all organizationally sanction because they have talks all the time with them shows your sink just because your witness this because some of the witness doesn’t mean Beckett Association so it fuels this type of in December input about yeah I’d add that I use it’s a term organization signally sanction to Justin and that it’s not it’s not black and white those are the more the quote conscience matters where they don’t make a hard and fast rule but they discourage you from associating with those people right so that gets more to the instead of the rules that’s more like the culture that they create them as I see it anyway and the other kind of they just kind of guilt you first for associating with people who aren’t at all the meetings and stuff like that the center of paranoia inside the congregation that said that Scripture in first Corinthians 1533 bad associations as well as useful habits and end the way they apply it now is to even those inside the variation so you have to look at every body that you’re around and are they worthy of your Association or should you really kind of shunned them and it’s it’s so sad because I just they create us versus them and literally every situation possible of the and that nobody gets help from that so is there anything else that you’d like to say touch on or I guess I guess unless little heartwarming thing that happened the the other day I was my wife is at hand when I was I went to grocery store and on my way home a song came on the radio and when I had it I’ve had this on 1 million times before but have never paid attention to the limits and this time I was paying attention and I was bawling my eyes out because it’s exactly when my wife and I have both that and I went home and I shared it with that I said baby I just had this on the radio it’s exactly where you and I have both that will with thinking about each other right now and I love you so much I just thought I couldn’t help myself something it’s called open your eyes and it’s by snow patrol show you that it must be glad when you read or hear the words they are the words of me woken up that’s what I’m saying to my wife is what she’s saying to me she wants me to open my eyes everyone who’s in our situation I think this is also that I know you do like people to pick a song but just had it the other day and I was like note this this is the song of our situation to people who love each other immensely and want each other to see the light so to speak but when we get off here I want to listen to and you’ll understand exactly what I’m talking about when you do what. I will do so I appreciate you sharing that actually no snow patrol so it is it went really well because when she listened to it we would it was just a tender moment that we shed because were very open with one another about how we feel in the situation think that’s the only way to proceed if you do still so I wanted to share that and just I’m not even say the words of of that you listen to myself saying them it’ll hit me again okay it was a very holding moment when I was hoping you would sing it but that’s okay no here you can catch me the carrier I I want to thank Daniel for being brave enough to speak up and to give us an inside look into someone that is living that life as as a chemo of someone who is physically and mentally out there’s always a risk when doing something like this but he wanted to speak the truth and you know it is really ironic as other thing about that now here he is in a cult that literally called themselves the truth but were having to do these things to hide his identity because he can’t speak what is true inside the truth so they are just really messed up situation but clearly Daniel has a good heart he’s trying to do the right thing you he loves his wife he wants to to keep his family together and it’s so sad that he has to hide who he truly is in order to make that happen and if that doesn’t show the cult nature of Jehovah’s Witnesses I don’t know what would if you like to send this message to support the Daniel you can do so by going to shunned podcast.com you can leave a comment form there on the episode page for his episode you can also find the resources that were mentioned in the episode there of the video for the song that he chose to represent his journey Daniel chose the song open your eyes by snow patrol that he mentioned actually in the interview while you shunned podcast.com you can also send me an email you can send me a voicemail that I can use on the show by using the tab on the right of each page where you can ask questions or leave comments that I can address on the podcast you can even support the show by picking up a T-shirt or a hoodie right there on the site right now that’s not the only place you can comment on the episode or get involved we also have a Facebook group that is very active called the shot called shunned podcast where we have people discussing episodes in their own lives and we try to do some fun things to build community there which are to be a building try to be supportive I also announced things in there before you’ll ever hear them anywhere else you can also find this podcast on YouTube under the channel shunned podcast on histogram shunned podcast or on twitter shunned podcast and in each case that shunned podcast is one word if you like to hear my story and great insights into how the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses works you can do so at the podcast called this JW life also found that this JW life.com speaking of which between shunned and this JW life we just eclipsed the 60,000 individual download Mark hit amazes me every time we had the next 10,000 or so as I never really thought this would reach so many people and impact so many lives I would take the time and think the people who really help you make the show possible by helping to support financially this month both Luke and Linda signed up to help support the show you the show takes not just work in time but there’s cost involved in getting audio hosted websites hosted doing transcripts equipments I also spent a great deal of time helping people through emails in the Facebook group other social media so you can support my efforts for as little as a dollar a month it means the world to me to know that that someone would actually take you to the say time is money so it take money or areas which represent some of their time and in and donate that to me that that they think enough of what I’m doing with my time to participate in that way so it really is encouraging me to see people that want to support what I’m doing and you can do so@patriotic.com/shunned if you’re so inclined another great way to support the podcast that both shunned or this JW life doesn’t cost you a penny just head over to iTunes and leave a five-star review for them helps them get found in the search is on there so that more people can find it you can also in some podcast apps you can also rate the podcast inside the yeah and then the act itself will help promote it so is just another way to to help more people find the show and then more people can hopefully get help in the next episode were going to be talking to Nicholas were to mix it up a bit and you get insight into what is effectively an online cult that he joined and the impact it had on his life were going to close the episode out now with no hell yet by fair voyeur you can find a link to her song to the patriot on page for the show to resources that were mentioned in more as a mentor before not just on the website but also on the pallet podcast that you probably go ahead and just click on the description there and get any information that you need one last reminder don’t forget to sign up for the four week coaching/support group program starting Sunday, March 10 seats are limited and I look forward to seeing you join others in the process of discovery about your own life your own story helping each other in this and building a little community and if you know that the podcast here they’re all about the story we tell others but the stories we tell ourselves are also very important so what help us all work through those things and so as we had all episodes love others do no harm and go be happy and