Nicholas was a member of an online ministry that seems to have some hallmarks of a cult called Is, Was, and Will Be. This is a really unique look into how what seems to be a cult can get its hooks in someone that is never even present physically. Imagine getting sucked into an online world where your fellowship is primarily through email chats and a website with information on it. There must be some profound mental games being played. This is a great look into some of them. In fact, I don’t mention it during the interview, but the term gaslighting comes to mind at times.
Teachings seemed to be somewhat misery and suffering based, Nicholas was wrestling with his own sexuality, and in the end the annihilation of the “self” was something that caused him to be lost for some time. After much trauma therapy Nicholas is on his way back to finding himself again.
Resources Mentioned:
If you are interested in the coaching/support group opportunity you can sign up HERE.
The official site of Is, Was and Will Be
The song that Nicholas chose is Here in the Vineyard by Anna & Elizabeth
Support Nicholas by leaving him a comment HERE
Join our Shunned Podcast Facebook group HERE
Leave us a review on iTunes
Find shunned podcast on Youtube, including new VIDcasts here.
Follow us on Twitter and Instagram.
Support the show by donating to the cause on our Patreon page, Patreon.com/shunned
Music by Fair Voyeur entitled “No Hell Yet”.
Welcome to the shunned podcast we expose religions that you shunning as a tool to control people before we get ended a story I like to take a minute to promote something that I have coming up starting Sunday, March 10 at 7 PM Eastern time I will be leading a coaching/support group for people that are interested the goal is pretty simple I were to work through our past to discover things about ourselves that will help us are present and were gonna figure out who we are and then work on trying to compose a better future life’s about growth it’s it’s easy to get stuck after leaving a cult some looking for just six people to participate in this if you like to join me go to the website Sean podcast.com click on the coaching page for more information and you know hopefully you have really nothing to lose here and a lot to gain you know I think that it will be really beneficial for people to work through some of the stuff and you discover some things about themselves because a lot of times it’s really covered up when you grow up in such a controlling environment all right so now let’s go and get on with the show today we have the story of Nicholas now Nicholas was a member of an online ministry that seems to have some of the hallmarks of a cult called is was and will be so yes that’s the title is is was and will be the really unique look into how this call gets its hooks into somebody that never even been present physically if you really think about that is one thing to get somebody into a cult when you have the love bombing physically and then all the physical unit of people are coming to your door and things like that like and Jehovah’s Witnesses but imagine getting sucked into an online world where your fellowship is primarily through email chats and a website with information on it or maybe their videos and things like that there really has to be some profound mental games being played in such an environment and this is a really good look into some of them in fact I don’t mention it during the interview but there were several times during it and actually mentioned this necklace later he kind of agree but that the term gas lighting comes to mind so without further do let’s get to meet Nicholas my name is Nicholas I’m 34 years old I was a member of the is was and will be cold and I’m shunned I necklace so then how did you come to be a member of that that particular cult was it later in life you I was around the age of 21 area I kind of had some exposure to the Bible before then mainly to my own interests and pursuits and I didn’t actually have anybody in my immediate family that shared that interest until my mother married into the very distant sky and in him and his dad was like an ex-minister in the kind of thing and he and I was having Bible discussions and I kind of noticed that he and I had a similar view of the Scriptures we kind of had a spiritual act like really trying to kind of look at the spiritual meaning behind certain things which I hadn’t been exposed to in my experiences with religion before then so I was like drawn into discussions with him and he recommended this Bible teacher named Ray Smith and at the time he had a very large online following because he basically created this website and he had meticulously dismantled the entire doctrine of eternal torment and sort of showing to the Scriptures that no everlasting punishment no going to hell no all the stuff he’s just completely dismantle the whole idea and how all men will be saved in the end and when you song about this teacher it instantly resonated with me as being true and just to shorten the story will work more I started reading his papers which led me to a different teacher named Mike Vinson and at the time you just started a website called is was and will be.com where he had his own teachings and desert reading his papers and they were very ultralight spiritual readings of the Bible and I was really drawn and about and so I talked to him off off and on for about three years by email and it wasn’t really like a church at that point this was the call that ended up joining him. At that time it it wasn’t really a concrete like fellowship and but within three years it was kind of Mormon established church and it was by that time that I was a regular member against while that’s that’s a pretty fascinating journey I believe you said it was Ray Smith started you off kind of with breaking down the teaching of of everlasting torment and I was thinking you what a great lead-in that is for anyone because a fiery hell is a great fear for a lot of people and so if you can break that teaching down that is going to be something that is going to have impact on others for my view as as a former Jehovah’s Witness that was actually Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe in a fiery hell and that is something that is very attractive to a lot of people so you so I can deftly see how you just just even that one points getting involved in that way you start you down the path and then you lead you to Mike Vinson and Ann this other in his teachings so you then I guess were directly involved or maybe maybe involves the wrong time but you were around at least for the very beginnings of this new colt which you need that a unique place place to be so will get a yeah you have very few people get to be at the at that that point about him not so sure that that’s a great thing but it’s the unique thing it and and and and and Mike Vinson had actually been in fellowship with Ray Smith at the time and I just now I putting the pieces together like that group like Mike Vinson’s group basically formed out of separating from from Ray Smith this off of a doctrinal difference and say I was definitely like that I want it all began for for Mike Vinson and he may have developed followers Reno people that were into his his thing because of the connection to Rissman wow that’s interesting how these things all play off of one another amid I don’t know how many cults are really created in a vacuum it seems like a lot of times they spin off of something else and usually it is some doctrinal difference something they want to set themselves apart from that other group that there there breaking away from so let’s let’s get your background a little bit there before you got there was there anything what was your childhood like you growing up what what was it you know him most people like we’ve talked about before don’t don’t just end up in a cult for no reason usually we have things that that happen in our lives the kind of attract us to it I know you know for my in my own family I believe anyway that it was probably my mom hasn’t trauma in her past a lot of times people are looking for certainty looking for something that that strikes a chord with them and sometimes it strikes a chord because they have other things in their past that kind of lead them in that direction so you kind of what was your childhood like what was it like growing up were you that you mentioned that you weren’t super religious but she kinda got involved later how that can play out for you him well my parents split at a young age and my mom basically had no like there is no churchgoer anger talking about praying or God or if there wasn’t like any of that kind of him in the background but my dad he he was he was definitely more drawn to and interested in like the Bible and trying to figure out the worldliness and he remembered when I would visit him when I was younger that he either had all these books on the shelf about setting the Bible and he himself studied the Bible that you never like tried to teach me stuff about the Bible it was more like I kind of saw his interest from a distance and he he did take me to you to go to church at the time you since left the church as well but he am he he did take me to church sometimes when I was younger a Pentecostal kind of churches and but I can’t say that it really impacted me at that point the real impact came when I got a little bit older mosaic nine or 10 and I visited my family in Austin are upset of St. Louis and they were very involved in the church just kind of general Orthodox Christianity and their entire family very large family would like read the Bible together pray together and one thing I noticed when I visited them was that their family system was very peaceful was very orderly and there is something about it that was like a relief to me in some ways when I would visit them and so I would if if I received any indoctrination I would’ve done to them or any influence on it was mainly through them and it was actually my visits with them that created my first interest in like getting a Bible reading the Bible and I remember and so after that I kind of study the Bible on my own or least reading it and thinking that there is something important there but not really knowing exactly what that meant for us so it’s kind of the religious background what up to everything I guess yeah and it seems like there might be even kind of a was it wasn’t you talk about the peace in this family was that something that was attractive to you because your parents had splits or had that happen to Kurt yet is wondering if you maybe sometimes you can see this peaceful family dynamic and maybe that kind of drew you in because that something you are you are really wanting in your own life at that point utilized as a kid yeah it’s kind of difficult to describe but there is definitely something living you know there is something in my home life that was not stable and I remember actually I recently remembered this that I when I came back from one of those trips to St. Louis I remember actually having the courage to tell my mom at the time that I that I wanted to to move there and then to live there with them so I and in retrospect that’s not a really good sign from the child is saying that Seattle must and I’m still now I’m out of the cold system I’m actually starting to look back at all these things and to process things little bit more thing happened even outside of the cold better the kind of set up a false view of the worldliness you can see that I can see that and yes I do think that coming home and pretty much being like I want to go there with those people know that the death not a good sign whether whether it’s whether it was the family dynamic or whether you are just attracted to the teachings I guess that that were leading to what you saw in that other family you that’s that’s not really great I don’t know I’m just starting to learn about attachments myself and attachment styles and things like that the way you’re supposed to attach to your own family of the child and things like that it is a fascinating study itself as to how we how we connect the things and the yeah definitely a person with a a great secure attachment home is typically not going to want to go live with someone else and and I think that you’re definitely not alone that I think there are a lot of kids who who grow up and in, feel the same way so so you started your getting some interest in the Bible you got this extended family there that that has kind of gotten you off on that start how does that develop as you as you progress as a child and your teenage years the young adulthood Gothic you said you’re pretty young that how does that continue to to grow I guess until you end up where you and eventually ended up on wall there is also this other dynamic of you know growing up were you know I kind of had the realization through my peers at school that something well-off about me and I know I do kind of slow realization.I’m gay and that wasn’t something that even my mom who wasn’t trying to push any kind of like religious stuff farming likeness of something that wasn’t you know wasn’t approved of and so I think from an early age like there is kind of already dislike self annihilation kind of thing growing you know where you have to like somehow like deny deny a certain part of your personality or you are and and so was already kind of primes for that the concept of denying the self into killing the self things like that and but it didn’t other interest and this is all stuff that I’m learning now away after the fact but like there’s the concept of like dissociation through traumatic types of things you know and so we look back on the process leading up to the cold join the cold joining I can see now I was asked so incredibly dissociated from my own perceptions of the world and and what I really felt about things and am so I kind of don’t really see myself as sort of like my authentic self back then you up but at the exactly specific time at the call came into my life I just gotten out of a well but a year after I got none of the four year-long relationship and it was a relationship with a girl and get going back to dissociation and really not being taught anything about what I was doing with you I kind of didn’t put things together and I just thought that my intense interest or my enjoyment of spinning time with her neck and stuff was you know indicative of who are really was and am so whenever that relationship ended I really definitely felt like I didn’t know who I was nose, afraid of that part of me and so yelling that was kind of the stuff that was going on right before joining the Colts along with some career changes and things like that at the pilots a really fascinating observation just the the part about the self annihilation or in our annihilation of the self and I only imagine what it must be like like you said your family wasn’t specifically religious but just growing up and realizing that your “different than other people who are portrayed as the quote Norm in society for it is I’m glad that it’s changing that there is no more more acceptances time is going by of our differences but I can only imagine how much the the vilification almost in the culture of of being something difference of a something is and submits at personal as one’s own sexuality that has to that really has to be so difficult and in it in that I hate to see that the people get stuck in and I guess the role trying to find yourself I think we we all do that a lot of ways but sometimes that that comes through a denial of who we really are and I can definitely see how that could set a person up to be right for the pickings when something comes along that is all about denial of the self which most of these cults are the minute it’s all about them it’s not about you here yeah hadn’t really produce the most things together until recently about here I didn’t even need a colt to tell me that I am had to deny myself analyst is true for a lot of people but you mean what’s the part of the work culture is called him the when you look at the prevailing culture of American society being different is never been it has has often been a problem and the it’s not as it accepting that used to be a day I guess it’s getting better but the still have a long way to go as far as accepting the other butts it when you grow up in a I guess is just really human dignity were all very tribal when you grow up in the in a mindset of of seeing people grouped in these different tribes then it’s easy for a person to start denying who they are to try to join the tribe because we all want to fit in every body wants to fit in somewhere and it’s very difficult when you feel like the the odd man out and really sorry that you had to had to face that you know within yourself as far as her sexuality went everything that’s I know that’s very difficult for people yeah him I hadn’t yet separately that relief like you found her tribe there is a point that feeling because the I don’t know exactly how does with Jehovah’s Witnesses but on a colt suffering was a really important thing you know and it was really like that’s our purpose in life is to suffer and suffer for Christ and to kill self and experienced this this the pain of losing your life with those are all really really good things really noble things and really heroic things to do that so I don’t know like I’m a blended the two together or something and if I will maybe the reason why my life is you know your seems like I can’t really limit that that that that that means that me like that that’s why I kind of resonated a lot with this group because because like 01 yeah maybe God has been calling me you know this entire time he’s been preparing me for this very specific group of people which is also very ironically very self-righteous self-righteous aware of where way of twisting it all that they like you know maybe that’s maybe that’s why all of this has happened is because I’m a part of this group that God is calling to experience this unit extreme suffering are now at that actually like understanding and agreeing with our doctrines which I also know resonated with me so I that was even more indication that or maybe this really is who I am now while that’s that’s really fascinating yes Jehovah’s Witnesses have a very Missouri-based view of the world that that it’s as they call it this wicked old system of things and I think it attracts a lot of people who are kind of down and out or have had a hard time conforming or fitting in or succeeding in this world and so rather than looking inward it’s easier to just say hey this is all part of a plan and God has set these things in motion and instead of instead of being and see you be special in different ways you can be special as an outcast or you can be you can be special because you’re being persecuted and it’s also a persecution complex or suffering because because this part of God’s plan and or as part of as they see it though this wicked world that we live in so that that’s that’s pretty fascinating because that is a lot of there is a lot of suffering based feelings as Jehovah’s Witnesses even and I imagine that’s the fact of the don’t talk to Brenda who was a fellow the Addison and different ones you gather is there is a a feeling of being special and a feeling of making things right are being writes and at the same time things going so utterly wrong and being so painful on the other side and the religions, help smooth all that over these cults by telling you that you ultimately these bad things that are happening in this pain that you have that’s really because your special what what a great sales. Tell because so many people on this earth we all have pain in our lives you know and if somebody can can take that pain and make it a a special thing that that you actually think is good and they can easily draw you to them and I can definitely see how that how that would happen has interesting stuff from there made that’s an interesting connection how today so how did you hear me talk a little bit about how you went from Ray Smith to Mike Vinson how you how you kind of got in that realm in the first place how what was it’s a C what was that was the appeal might yeah yeah what was it only was it just as the suffering aspect because of me obviously you have a lot of pain in your life you’re you’re denying who you are and that I can’t imagine and I know how painful it was just to deny myself and be inauthentic as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses let’s say butts to deny your own sexuality and and like you said there were other things going on in life for some career changes in such when you’re in that point about people what was it that can you say or maybe you can’t pinpoint what was it that attracted you to Mike Vinson I think I keep one memory that stands out from that specific transition is you know this Mike Vinson’s group like really focused on the spirit meant that was like probably the most uttered words like in and everything that we talked about and this idea that there is a spiritual understanding of things and there’s a natural understanding of things and so I think that was the thing that really really compelled me at first was this idea of having a spiritual understanding of the world and not if I had a spiritual understanding then the world would make sense him now and so remember specifically praying at that time for to be given a spiritual understanding of things and even Paul talks about this a lot you mean about having a spiritual mind and remember specifically wanting about and so whenever I read papers written by Mike Vince and and they made sense to me I thought the government that I have asked that I have that I’m being given you a spiritual understanding which says apparently some unique thing you know that only the group has and on that was really the biggest thing that first remand and I can describe a little bit like our doctrines I know some of them are very similar to Jehovah’s witness yeah I’d be interested in hit you know what what the doctrine kind of was in a nutshell because I am having a he will be fascinated to hear that so when they read the Bible the way they read the Bible was from cover to cover every single word there is not a single word that was looked over as an insignificant and along with that there was a real focus on deriving like the spiritual meaning behind the letter and kind of getting past the letter because the letter blinds people to the true meaning of Jesus spoke in parables so that they would not understand that only a few people would understand what they really meant that I was kind of the general philosophy about reading the Scriptures has furs like really specific doctrines they themselves wouldn’t switch say that we haven’t no list of doctrines because to have a list of doctrines is like a Orthodox thing to do so they were just say something like the Bible is our doctrine that over time you can kind of isolate the big things the circle drive everything in the to the number one thing is like God is 100% sovereign so you know God creates good and evil God is working all over the snow like God allows or anything like that like we literally had no say in the matter he’s written the entire story in advance we have no free will and also the world is basically divided between the true church and everyone else in that the Orthodox that that Orthodox Christianity specifically is sort of like the great deceiver in the world because they’re mixing in a truth with lies and so there like deceptive on a greater scale and also if your believing the ways of the true church and you sort of resonate with Hertz resident with the suffering on a lot like Van that means that your special or even called out or whatever and not now your job is to be as Christ so there are very specific about how it wasn’t just Jesus Christ in the flesh it was also about him calling on disciples as well that would basically have the same experience he had been in our lifetime we spiritually not necessarily physically so we may not necessarily be persecutor no across her things like that but that we would basically be living the same exact suffering that Christ did on the earth to overcome the earth with him and so is once you’ve gone through your your life and you overcome the world and overcome yourself then that makes you part of Christ’s rulers think and revelation it talks about how hundred and 24,000 you how in the first resurrection like Christ you know like Christ and his rulers you know like that there’s multiple people that are can carry out this process of saving the world and bring rest of mankind into the fold so yeah there is that idea that if we stay on this path and we overcome and were faithful to the end than will be in the first resurrection and then if that doesn’t happen that so God’s will and if somebody is shunned or if they have a doctrinal difference that means they were never really part of the group and things like that big focus on killing himself having Christ sort of takeover your thoughts and everyone else’s blinds and led astray you know specifically by God’s will is not like they are deceived and it in a way that is somehow a serving God’s will yes is there a belief in Satan or the devil area but it’s a belief that he was created by God so okay I gotcha so he still exist so as not another word is not God who is orchestrating the good and the evil but God created the devil and so therefore I guess directly or indirectly he created the bad things that go on yeah so if someone is is if someone succeeds for you according to then God has sent an evil spirit to him bring about it’s interesting because there there’s there’s a theme that I’m hearing a you as you’re saying all this there’s a theme that I’m hearing and it’s almost I want to say it’s acceptance but acceptance is healthy it sounds like resignation it’s like so you have a God who is pretty much resigned good and evil happens whatever just accept it or no just be resigned to it don’t try to influence it just just let it happens to be resigned to that and then it sounds like you’re also to be review as a follower in this this one true church are supposed to be resigned to whatever happens in your life happens and there’s nothing you can do about it and even the teachings when it comes to this spiritual outlook and it sounds like you’re not really trying to see the cassette you not really trying to glean it any any solid points from anything that happens you’re almost as kind of resigned there as well to whatever happens it must’ve been God’s will oh yeah definitely everything gets filtered through what you’re going to learn about everything in the world spiritually yes is not about yes on about but that spiritually thing is so so nebulous there’s no real form to it in the so you’re just kind of resigned too well that happens and then it sounds like you’re not really trying to so that each person can kind of make it their own on a level let’s not have rules so to speak let’s individually it seems like if you’re individually looking at each thing that happened in your life through a quote spiritual lens and if no one seems to be trying to solidly interpret that it seems like it’s kind of everything is kind of open to interpretation a little bit spiritually so then you kinda get to make it what you want without be an accurate depiction yeah yeah deftly heard numerous times like if if if something was perceived as a contradiction in Scriptures United States and like it’s also because you just don’t have UG just seeing it spiritually and yeah and that’s actually stuff that I struggled with the group whether I vocalized it clearly you’re aggressively enough that those kinds of mysteries over time really do you start to wonder you know after certain after certain time like when we really talking about here you yet seem like there’s not a lot of form to it is not that there’s not a lot of substance it’s the fairly looked open to interpretation then what really is there a guy it’s that’s why I guess maybe that’s why the group was so heavily focused on studying the Bible all the time so Sir focus was kind of like on interpreting the scriptures and learning about our heavens like that that’s what they refer to a lot of his or her mind you really getting at a sense of what’s happening in our heavens spiritually which in retrospect now I’m out of it all it’s really interesting a lot of the parallels you know that you concert to see about what the Scriptures are kind of alluding to the things that happened you know psychologically accepts the problem with these religious spiritual groups is that everything gets put into this framework of something nebulous in something that you can’t see something that involves spirits sort of know going through our minds and you’re the sort of like other altar reality that sort of barrel all the time serving we were kind of getting specific but really just in terms of interpreting Scripture’s address and learning how to deal with the mind I guess like what like what underlies and what are truths basically and had assertive see-through things that are lies I guess so what are truths that according to them because it sounds like it’s kind of open to interpretation almost individually yeah that or is it is a interpretation did was Mike Vinson the one who was truly interpreting everything everyone was to follow his interpretation I don’t like I have yet like a concrete sense of the really high specifics of what was going on with the teachings and even out of it like it I like I was like my response to the question of what is truth according to them would be there focus on things like this sort of the the mind of Christ basic was what they were calling like developing the mind of Christ the way you respond to things the way you operate I guess in the world and like that those things are truths I guess that there all encapsulated in this mind of Christ kind of concept data and what it is and so now and then ask what is the mind of Christ is like it is like each thing becomes like the next level of a guest a phrase or or something like nothing nothing seems very concrete and to be quite honest like it sounds like it sounds like a very philosophical mind fuck the whole thing it sounds it sounds kind of know it’s at the most like they’re there letting you leaving you to your own on some level but kind of more almost like directing how you do that or something if it is a that interesting concept yeah I think I know you mean it’s I did like I don’t really know too much about other cultic kind of groups I know if it was like if that if that issue is like common with other groups are not by union others definitely remember saying to one of the elders at one point that it feels like I’m like if you like a mind like it feels like everything were doing is and I wasn’t saying this like out of like trying to challenge that I was saying it out of fear way what if all of this is a mind game so yeah I have a vague understanding of of your confusion and like it’s just like it’s the way that I like it’s the environment I was in for so long so not really know how it’s perceived by other people say it’s interesting to hear you seems very undefined you mentioned that so so what was life like in it and did you that you have to go live with them over her how how did you play out this life obvious and there’s a website that seems like you can probably maybe do this wherever you are in the world or does that draw you to them in some way yeah it’s sir online kind of group and they people usually find them by doing a Google search on some topic or something and they start to read teachings on the websites which there’s thousands of teachings even down to like the spiritual meaning of the color white and like everything the spiritual meaning of the color white yeah I know I take apart like all these references to white in the Scriptures and you know that’s so weird detailed I’m just now starting to realize like they could literally like they had to have material to really supports that mysterious group like where we actually doing here and so I think that’s what they do like that’s all they perpetuate is like through all of these really really intense detailed studies so kinda become so focused on the book I teachings and not and you I rehearsing it is just like a big mind game really is interesting the I was on my ministry and so people just kind of find them randomly and then read the couple papers and go a while or actually a lot of the members came from orthodox Christianity were maybe even kicked out like X you know people that were shunned from other groups because of beliefs and so like they’d find Mike Vinson’s group and they say like while like the the people and I’m looking for my entire life would actually think that where like believe what I believe him so is very scattered group like all the world literally almost and but still there is maybe only 50 really active members say I was online Bible studies through like GoToMeeting or things like that like every day of the week we had a email forum and we also had conferences away we had like meet ups in person as well we usually have like a couple big get-togethers a year and then if you lived by anyone locally and often travel so I mean I actually met my concern right before it became difficult because he actually lived an hour away from my family in Georgia which was kind of a weird realization but so I went and visited him after been talking for a while one surrealist relived so there is also like in person element but is not as common as sending an email making a phone call or things like that gotcha so how do you join how does a person actually what is it you get baptized or something or how’s that work on that’s kind of creepy now that I think about it because the really isn’t a concrete system so basically someone will contact Mike Vinson or one of the elders and talk about their interest in the group address and how it resonates with them but it’s really weird I think about how inside the group which is in a have to be on a special email system or special email address I guess that you don’t really care about people coming in in school or when new people can come into the group it’s really through this email system in a way I mean there are some people that went on the email system just come to Bible studies online but using people came and it was almost like they were like they like when they came on email system they were coming there to see if it was the right fit like they were like it was almost as if they came NRA nine like this is the group for them and they were they were almost like presold yet another think about is a market and a weird kind of weird that most everyone seemed to come in like they’d made up their mind in a way like this was their people and so there is no like official process for rank some land but there’s a very very official process for removing someone says, on another think about it that you know that they basically I guess you just kind of show your your fruit I guess like the fruits of the spirit is what they would probably say your question that Sarah will if somebody showing fruits of the spirit and are contributing in their an agreement on that the must mean that are part of us are some to be honest I’m just taking notes here because I have a Facebook group now for the podcast and to start my own little cult that I get people presold with the this whole podcast is just a a façade to bring people into my group and I really have a I’m sure you get the trip I would imagine you may have gotten some detractors this point as well no actually I do have one of have some people who go on iTunes and leave the one star you click the one start thing but there’s only one person in so far his left me a of a one star review and actually had the guts to speak up so that’s kinda interesting maybe you can start the coffee I don’t have any detractors that we are doing this wrong or maybe is right I don’t know yeah that is really fascinating though that you just like anybody can kind of wander into this this email loop that you’ve gotten this cult but but they’re coming deep down the line already so is there like some sort of like an unseen process or is that copy on the website just that good or what it what is it that getting them but you know well yeah there is actually at least in some examples there is kind of a pre-I think there is a pre-selling I also of the group because I have noticed in some correspondences that are made public or even stories I’ve heard something out of the group that you know a lot of times people write to Mike Vinson or somebody else in the group and also showing all the things about their life and you know and how the teachings makes sense than the and a lot of times you can definitely see that very subtle indication from Mike or one of the other leaders that young maybe there is something really special to this and the answer there is I think a pretty fast or quick jump I think on Mike Sanders many other leaders if someone writes writes them that they immediately probably commiserate with the person more than speculate should share what you’ve got but it’s basically a suffering based cult that I’m sure there’s a lot of commiseration on that in so that what is in this for a because it most in most cults there’s something in it for the person at the top B money power sex notoriety may be feeling special themselves like their the Messiah or their saving people or whatever do you know so I did did was there a lot of that you have to do a lot of contributing financially or again that’s what I’m doing with patriotic my own podcast here what was it that they got people that that what wasn’t in it for them either as you would think that there would be something in it for them that’s been one of the things it’s really been really challenging to kind of pull apart in the aftermath is what was the real benefit hearing I can definitely see some benefits like announcing this was the case for them although in the past week I’ve heard some developments about this group to kind of confirm the suspicion that it is definitely the possibility of some kind of power that although they probably wouldn’t call it power you know and then I guess cultic systems have like this unspoken unconscious sort of process if you like I like getting to the top maybe are you like there’s a sort of the subtle process for people and getting sucked in like wanting to be helpful and then if if people start saying that their wives are they have a lot of wisdom or something like thoughts Mr. churning like all like is this should be a teacher you know there’s kind of this built-in culture I guess and itself there that has something to do with power or raising sure a higher place but no there was not any like really obvious like really obvious signs of like the cold exploiting people interesting because there is no asking for money there is no although it was talked about occasionally there is no there is no like coverts control like people getting like labor out of people or things like that now you you mentioned that I think in one email you actually called it an authoritarian Colts where what would you say you made it authoritarian to him while VM because it was really strictly governed by a group of people so there’s maybe five people is sort of renovating except my concern he was saying that he’s not the leader parts he definitely acted that way but city have had a group of leaders that return to make decisions like hard and fast like doctrinal decisions about things and so is authoritarian and not science up and are expected to conform to that new doctrinal belief yeah I mean they they could say like you can leave whenever you want or you can believe whatever you want but there is also this whole other layer baggage were urinary in that belief system so I mean like if you leave then the knots really the ultimate kind of being lost I guess yeah okay so so if you leave your scene is supremely lost what you mentioned earlier that if you do try to leave so there’s no process for getting in but there is a process when you leave so do you want to discuss so what that process is or would you like to tell your own story and in how this all played out for you well there’s not really a specific process for help PR for people that just want to leave a lot of times people will just kind of drift away or no without saying anything or they’ll bring up some issue that they have weathered stock during or whatever is no processor people just to just want to leave but there is a process for if the person is really trying to influence maybe their disagreement so someone is really like disagreeing then there is a process that the church you know deals with that disagreement and then if they don’t conform to whatever the official statement is done the nurse Sean Berger kicked out and you have this dull just alert the entire church you know about the person in the disagreements and where and you know not to associate with them any further in business for like associate them with them and no way at all and not the purpose of the shunning is to make them ashamed and to their their phrase was to to lots Satan destroy their flesh you know of course in a spiritual context everything but what met me suffering is suffering optimal yeah so there is you know like every few months I don’t know maybe not that frequent but there is at least 10 people you know in my 8 to 10 your involvement that there is a least 10 people that were shunned and probably you know a handful of people just can’t disappeared on and if they shun you this if if they shun you there’s also this process of coming back and I don’t know that it’s a concrete process could never witness to.I on I never saw like this concrete process take place but they say that they have to do is they have to inspect you spiritually if you were to come back that fence KV is that me and straying in the just like they just email back and forth with you or something and make sure that your legit or yeah the sad thing is I don’t think that they really have a system for the gun not the stone something that they believe in their minds like their local talk with you maybe but to call that a no inspecting for spiritual what leprosy is the call that you are just has basically are unimagined just a conversation with someone but you have the make sense so what was what was it said before I get to what woke you up or how you got out your life inside of its what were your feelings when you are inside of this is seems like it’s had quite an impact on you may be out of psychological user is a right word, but it’s been somewhat dramatic this hold this whole involvement with it what was it’s that that really got to you and in a negative way there was I think about the 3 to 4 years into her I was when things really started to deteriorating for me sir can you repeat the? Just the basics yet is one that you know you’ve obviously had somewhat of a traumatic experience through this process what was it what was it about being involved in this cult that was I guess so traumatic for you what was it that that really messed with you while I’m like 16 months out of it now and I’m still configuring SFL but I have isolated some things there there was definitely like there is a family like this sense that I wasn’t growing in the group that I wasn’t developing the court” fruits of the spirit that the group was and you know because after a few years I can really say why specifically but like I started to really get very confused about all the very like disoriented because it’s like trying to understand everything and it was always the like always this dynamic of somebody telling me what the truth is in telling me what the reality is and so after certain about that after certain time like I trusted the leaders more than I trusted my own mind and so if I didn’t understand something and that was me doing with aligning spirits or me being deceived to me not having enough faith things like that seems like a lot of Seth self-doubt and self questioning yeah and what’s weird is I had it all the time I never really doubted what I can ever? Is this a cold or no man in my and something that’s bad for me and that I did I think subconsciously I started I can’t like like I mentioned earlier like feeling like it’s all online game you know like those things really started to bother me when I would realize things that make sense for certain contradictions to me but it was like I didn’t really feel like I could go down that path of really really questioning and if I did they would always have an answer for him for everything every confusion and there was always some meticulous breakdown of Scripture on Sardis the stuff it was like damaging I guess would’ve been like being in this group and like feeling trapped in a sense because like this is the way like this is the way the world works this is your goddess God is sovereign and a free will so like he apparently did you know will all of this to happen and so if I’m not growing and I don’t belong at it and I don’t usually do I I belong to the true body of Christ like just that the fear of like wall if I don’t belong there were no but I deftly don’t belong anywhere because I agree with this group like I was the real disorienting thing about it was like I agree with like I know the things they they talked about made sense to me to certain degree and I thought that there is a lot of meaning to what the group held but if you then didn’t fully agree and then you had us lying spirit or whatever so then it’s almost like God was rejecting you is that that kind how you felt yeah that was the sense I had over time was that because their definition of God loving someone is if he know that that technically like you this goes back to the whole nebula six spiritual concept which spiritually God loves everyone but also he only loves the hell like the true body and those are his true songs is true children so beautifully that impression after a long time like wall if I’m not growing and they’re hinting at this idea that I’m not molding I don’t belong there that I maybe I’m not really a child of God and to add to that confusion even more they would get mad at me if I selected and belonged so that if I said so that if I said that the to be these are the kinds of things that are really like hard to like extracts like for my brain’s like it’s so weird like that that if I said that I felt like I didn’t belong then they would sales into lying spirit but if I was feeling things are thinking things that were you know not growing demand would be the ones to kind of comply that I don’t have enough faith or unite and then it slowly devolved into getting worse and worse they now I will say that there is also an element on my end that I’m still trying to process through but like you know whether it was some type of like your talk about attachment trauma earlier you know if there is some trauma that are brought into the group that was exacerbated or something by this group or if stuff happens inside the group specifically but I am now is very unstable in the cult when I got to select for years and so I was like really badly like it emotionally does regulating in dissociating and I didn’t know I was doing that at the time was constantly confused and’s and I would pretty regularly like every couple weeks have some kind of confusion breakdown and I would seek out the help of other people in the group and so when I goes on for many years it starts to wear down the group as well and you wasn’t it was like I was lashing out at or disagreeing with them or things like that or they’re just like complaining or some like I really strong drive to understand things and to make sense of it all for God answered my prayers to finally give me that special thing that everyone else has but over time it slowly devolved with them to Reno taking I was accusing them of certain things that I was trying to dominate them and that there is something about me I guess that they considered a threat that was trying to divide them I have no conscious awareness of trying to do that by discount that’s kind of the things that they developed as far as so by the end there you know according to the group there just wasn’t there something wrong about me or something to be cautious about and then did they kick you out or how did that how did you end up out yeah they are icon in sense that the that I was going to be Sean like a couple weeks before it happens because I guess like I could sense that whatever that was in me that was unstable and not really responding well to this environments or whatever the environment was triggering or whatever was like I sense that that part of me was like growing stronger so there is a pointless sense that I was to be Sean the couple weeks before happened and so the very day that I was shunned I can assure this personal thing with the group that you just sort of way realizing what happened all these years that and in a sense in trying to like except that I didn’t unit that that apparently God was bringing me into this group and so I assured one morning that I felt you know God had pushed me to this place no IQ journey to this place and I was having that me having all these struggles was sort of driving the group away maybe your work or causing issues I guess and so I kinda was coming to that realization and acceptance of that of whites God was working in my life and I said that I… Kind of kind of a resignation and acceptance kind of thing but anyway so when I sent this message out to everyone very a few responded very angrily that I had accused them of abandoning me when I the intent behind the message was that I felt God was pissing me and that I understood why you know why things were working out I guess and why and why there was this natural sort of division happening I guess between the two of us and they like automatically took that as me accusing them which happened very frequently in the last year that I would say things and they would sales accusing them that I just I really was so confused like trying to figure out how I was accusing them privately like trying to work through it like what was just I couldn’t see and so buddy I gotta tell you I’m listening to this and I’m confused this that this is the way they they act and everything it sounds like like it almost sounds like it sounds like you are really sincere dude who probably have little pain in your life well maybe a lot of pain in your life and just just the whole sexuality thing alone as it is enough to be a lot and’s that you are is something you are a sincere dude was some pain who was trying to fit in who found the group that you thought you could fit into and it sounds like you tried everything you could to fit in and these people had at best a confusing doctrine of that I don’t know the type that the whole doctrine thing is it seems like because it earlier like a mind fuck and then it seems like whenever you bring something out up like it’s all secure in a group of narcissists and anything that you brought up they made about themselves like you like you said you’re accusing them and they made it all about them instead about of about you and it really gets confusing me because they did devote so much time do you know and they are I know exactly the same but yeah that becomes very difficult afterwards because you realize like well that they were so getting and kind and patient by a certain then you have certain moments where he was like while that was it really makes no sense to young and sometimes sometimes you have a thing where there are people who are pretty narcissistic or whatever a lot of times are some of the more charming people that you will ever meet and that’s just as lower UN and or maybe they just flip-flop I don’t know I mean it it’s very it sounds like you spent eight years and was this something that you did like I don’t know what the frequency was how often were you in contact with these people because I was a part of the email group yeah everyday so like I would receive no emails from everyone liked group good group emails and yeah it’s I was very that that’s the really weird thing like I told you the specific reasons for the shunning that they gave me but they are the really ironic thing is that I was so devoted I was so devoted to the group like there like at the time I wanted nothing more than to have what they called the one mind of Christ and to be in unity within the meaning for me to not for for me to to not have the confusions that I had that would cause issues I guess you wanted to fit in and you wanted to be one of them and you know I did fit in with them the first four years whatever you know or you know I would have moments of understanding that would come and they would talk about how they would relates to and they use this weird back-and-forth was very confusing alike sometimes I was I sometimes I belonged and sometimes I didn’t and I can’t tell if that was something that was happening internally or something it was kind of happening because of the environment but anyway like setting the reason I see I gave a thought I was accusing them and that message and they so they swiftly called for my my shunning from the group and they give me multiple reasons this I was trying to destroy the church and divide them I was trying to spiritually murder the flock I was literally creating spirit I was clearly creating spiritual bloodshed that I was antichrist that I never belong to the entire time I was trying to deceive them the whole time like I like I was some kind of on Alex and kind of person that they knew that they didn’t belong you consciously like they were trying to dislike I was trying to do deceive them and manipulate them or something else said that I was abusive that I was mocking men and that I was a sacrifice of God for their benefit and growth meaning I’m I spent all those aged 10 years and only got worse but they actually that I was actually created you know by God this was the implication of a statement that I was created by God to brought into this group to cause tribulation for this group said that they would grow and become better saviors you know of the world and grow in their faith and also that I had there in words do what is it that’s pretty stern words that the water rebuke you so there is multiple reasons and I believe them like I believe everything they said but that’s how this was so weird to me as just the contrast of them thinking I was deceiving them or trying to destroy them that actually believed everything they told me when they shun me and it took a while not believe the and how long have you been out now said the 18 months or something yeah 1660 month I don’t know maybe this is a bad comparison did you when you broke up when the relationship ended with your girlfriend did were you the one to break that off or did she either of you did okay gotcha all right I was a sizes one and it almost sounds like the others wondering if if you just the second honestly a lot of what you’re saying here about this about this group and it almost sounds like a bad relationship you know it’s it’s almost like the Q got into a relationship that you thought was good and then like the guy or girl at the end like you think everything is okay and added at the end they end up in your trying so hard and at the end they end up dumping you anyway and just you know what a heartbreak and how awful that would feel but this was even more than that because it wasn’t just a relationship it was it was your belief system that was it was what was in your mind and heart and so it’s really hard to to be cast off from that and and especially to still believe it there a lot of people who who are what the time it disfellowshipped from Jehovah’s Witnesses usually for some sort of behavioral issue for having sex outside of marriage or whatever but anyway so there disfellowshipped and although there outside of the organization they still believe it and that such a hard place to be to be cut off from the very people that you thought were your friends and you thought were your spiritual family and then that you still maybe even still believe the same doctrines so how did you starts actually I guess waking up and getting healthier because it sounds like you are cut off but but you still believed and you probably did you still want to be a part of them agree, sounds like you did write yeah I mean I think the week following that I know like they didn’t like kick me out there’s no confident shunning I wouldn’t say for this group by they basically said like you know you have to be away from the group for at least a year and that you have that you have to return if you look if you return we we have to see the fruits of the spirit off to you like really inspect you and you’ll have to like attend the Bible studies online but you will be allowed to like say anything or you like as if I was at that time trying to say things to the group to confuse them or destroy them or pull them away from God or something like so they set up you if you spend a year attending the Bible studies behind plate glass and you stand up showing Fritz the spirit when you return when you can be back with us again but after a week of sitting in accident for a very long but after a week of sitting without a kind of realized Unida I’d already reached like a certain threshold in the group so you have to spend a year like with the belief system you know trying to figure out like is a God’s will for me even to be part of this group like that was too much to like except to get on the path so I kind of stopped thinking that way and I started really researching things and learning a lot about things that I never surprisingly like I never really looked into your researched and thought about in great detail elements of where like I am there is actually I was working in my shop one day and was listening to this audiobook by Joseph Campbell and everything that he was talking about about mythology like the human experience in like it was sort of the first inspiration I had to really like a really connected with me and started connecting with ideas or thoughts I was having in the group whether I was conscious of them are not started studying the really detail old stuff about how the Bible was constructed seeing you know like asserted looking into other religions and realizing that there is some other mainly Eastern religions that are a a lot of the same link spiritual concepts that our group had you like slowly realizing that our beliefs weren’t as unique as they claimed they were and even I claimed in the group and learning about a group psychology and so like there was like a six-month time. After the shunning where I really just immerse myself and honestly a lot of it was driven by fear because I was afraid that auditing the site could be true so there’s kind of an anxiety about the process of of going down that path of things that they would call deceptive because I was just afraid of of the year the idea of being deceived or something yeah so they said that anything on the outside of it was like specifically self-help or whatever would be a quote deceptive if it wasn’t from them you start like people like the roles are propping up your loving yourself or you just things that like are very minor loving yourself their understanding of it’s really weird like’s as much as really detail as they were about the Scriptures like I realize in retrospect that even these like much older teachers have been rolled longer than I have like seeing now the things that they thought about science were about philosophy or history even like to see that it was so like or even their their understanding of psychotherapy like their understanding of those things was so incomplete and they totally have this depiction of those things that were not really the reality that I found outside of the group may not make sense there a lot there are a lot of people who have claimed to be special to have special groups and special knowledge throughout history there a lot of people to follow those men or women and there we can look back now use the information age we’ve all got the Internet we can look back now and see how incomplete and how flawed those those systems are saying the world were and the so that the has to be kind of jarring you know only I know it is a I know in my own and my own the experience and how it is to to wake up and start reading other things and getting other perspectives from people on the outside who are deemed to you know deceptive or whatever and it is it can become a scary at first but it can also be very freeing of once you start realizing that the that you are free you’re out and and you can find other passive being you have to so what’s do you what are some things that you’ve learned that have really made a positive impact on your life since you’ve been out I guess like the idea of autonomy like having a personal like being completely autonomous from Lake groups and people and things like that and sort of a growing idea that I can be my own person with like my literally my own truth which is something like couldn’t have like imagined leaving the group is and in the group I would’ve said there’s only one truth and and I think that’s true for someone to say like for themselves in a sense like nothing your truth is everyone else’s truth that your truth is like the truth for for you and so I think really having to be brought into that place like release it all it also exerts to make you question the world at large to add to some degrees like because I I kinda discover that have like this you know it’s common like an impulse to like find like some system like her some way of thinking about something you know people naturally want to understand things and I think most with that’s what like you seven easy steps to lose your belly fat yellow stuff like that of a like that that’s why that stuff selves because we’re all looking for a system to buy into you know of some sort that that the true individuals very birthday yeah and because I’ve seen the negatives for you because because I’ve seen like how bad things can go really like fiercely attaching to a certain system or way of thinking like a minute and I just really like brought into my awareness I think of resisting like that impulse to try to find a certain framework really find the person that you really has a good handle on things and I think that by doing that it’s is have opened up a lot more like the world is just has more depth I guess and it’s more interesting and but it’s also a scary thing to do to cut off you know every system were like framework or philosophy or a note to cut those things away and really like perceive your reality you know as you perceive it to really like trust yourself and things like that so I think that’s it still like her a long process but I think that’s the one big thing that I’ve caught onto so far you the minute that’s something that most people never see her never learn is the is to have that autonomy have you had any have you had any big wins are any big revelations in that realm like have you has there been anything when you’re like or even small things like idea I like this food that I never thought I did because you know people told me that this is bad for you are this is batter like is there anything that you you kind of discovered that has been positive through this this new thinking of the first to come came to mind is you know when your entire backdrop is like you know that that urine disorders harrowing spiritual battle all the time and that’s what your life is like I don’t know if other people in the group experience to good like that’s that can be good for like your nervous system, can’t be good for your physical health or your mind even like to be constantly in that state of I just like knowing that your life is has like universal implications nine-year I like using even their words that going through the lake of fire which is what they called going to this suffering in this life like that’s that’s the hardest thing they would say that’s the hardest thing in the world any person can do so coming from that framework of like that really stressful thing it’s I’ve been I guess surprised how just enjoyed like enjoying really seemingly insignificant things is like an okay thing to do like a beautiful thing to do yeah like that it’s that it’s a normal thing to do’s you know and you know I’ve I found that I have dissociation working with the trauma specialists and that was a revelation for me so essentially you’re kind of detached from your physical senses and it’s is something that develops over time so as I’m coming out of dissociation things like’s sight and hearing and smell and taste and touch like all those things are starting to become more vivid so it’s I’ve been surprised how it’s both eight a normal thing and a healthy thing to just be neutral like to just do do something that has no meaning to like reading a book that is not does not know anything to do with learning something just for fun is just yeah just you just things like that that life at United it sounds like in the environment that that is so focused on suffering you could easily be a person that shuts off and dissociates like you said from any enjoyment of life because suffering seems to be the thing you’re going for and it would be easy to shut those things off I I can say that as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses the the focus on all the things you do in life having some sort of universal significance.might not of been quite the same as yours we had our own way of looking at it but that the stress of that immunity kind of especially if your sincere person kinda burns out your adrenals a little bit with adrenaline fatigue is just so stressful and in it’s a state of high anxiety in and it’s not an easy way to live and then succumb out and to to just be able to read something that because you enjoy it and that’s good enough like it doesn’t have to have universal appeal is just something that appeals to you and you enjoy it like that so that’s a really free place to be compared to thinking that everything you do has so much hanging on the weight of the world literally so I’m glad to see that that you’ve been able to find some of that God’s it’s interesting to hear how that manifests another group send it some I definitely there is that weird though there’s that weird element of where the spirituality is kind of dismissive of your physical experience and so it just kind of there is no way that all the stuff couldn’t affect your physiology absolutely and if you think about it what’s the opposite world I don’t know if this is psychologically true but I’m just going to say this logically the opposite of dissociation is being present and what you are doing as you say these different things are being turned back on for you is you are becoming presence is like most of if you were to do like a mindfulness meditation focusing on the breath focusing on the present moment things like that to be able to experience that after dissociation even in little bites as as it comes back to whatever that’s a that’s a big thing man that’s that’s that’s progress that’s a really huge I love you as a milestone or whatever to be able to hit is to be able to to experience that an IV I did not experience things quite the same as you is what you’re describing here bots I will say that since being out of the Colts of Jehovah’s Witnesses and it’s been three years now I guess is over three the things that do occur on a daily basis I can be more present with and a and more focused on just the small little winds of of life are just beautiful moments are things that happen than I ever was in a life where I was so focused on the Bible and the witness teachings and that he wants to get your thoughts yeah yeah yeah you can you can be just as addicted to your thoughts as you can be to a drug or alcohol or you know whatever we can get trapped in our minds and the beer to come back out of our own mind and to participate again in life actively and presently that’s that’s a beautiful thing and some I’m really really happy for you that you’re starting to get that again and you I I really hope that you continue on that path I’m sorry that that it was kind of stolen from you like it was that this not obviously I deal with is a setback but it doesn’t it’s not the end than you’ve got you a lot to look forward to as you start to get those things back and you know I think I’m on some level maybe I appreciate some of the things that I have now and that I can be present with more because I lost them for so long and I mean it’s kind of a cliché but the feelings that I have about those things now that that that I’ve gotten back or that I get to experience now for the first time at 41 years old you know it the I don’t know it’s really true that’s I think it I think it does actually make it more will be Abby United definitely makes you appreciate it a lot more and it is also got on a few experience of like kind of also a sadness about the degree life like that you weren’t seeing the world like you that that using everything like much more diminished before yes to pretty much everything in life there is a good and a bad of their few things that are all good or all bad and just as on one side of the pendulum swing you’ve got that feeling of gratitude and impact that this new free life gives you on the other side when the pendulum swings the other way there are those lows where you realize that you missed out on things that or just sucks to have thought that to feel like you are tricked for a while that that really sucks I remember hearing a podcast one day and it was just about the Christmas and is kind of just showing how like there were some kids who believed in whose parents went through elaborate ruses to make their kids believe in Santa Claus and spoiler alert there is no Santa Claus of 30 was listening yield these kids though reacted in different ways there were kids who were appreciated who appreciated after the fact as adults looking back that their parents went to such lengths to keep the magic alive for them and there were other adults that realize that his kids they were how they were tricked that were really devastated by it and the links that their parents went to to trick them to keep some dream alive and we all react differently to things and there’s again any Yang and yet it’s normal in the grieving process to feel those intense moments of freedom but then at the same time and made at the same time but not sure shortly thereafter to feel intense moments of grief and pain over what was lost or the fact that we were we were tricked by somebody it doesn’t it doesn’t feel good to realize that were all human and that we are all subject to those things you get interesting about the Christmas the samples reactions yeah yeah I thought that was fascinating and I remember thinking immediately after hearing it that that kind of made me there was a first time I realized that intentionally or not I was tricked whether anyone had malice in doing so or not I was given a false worldview I was I was given something that’s that was kind of honestly looking back a waste of my time and date that set me back and gave gave me pain but there are very few people in this life to escape life without that and if it wasn’t joining a cult let’s not fool ourselves to think it would you note could’ve been something else because they’re very few people who live just your happy lives throughout we all go through these. If suffering is a part of life we all go through these periods of it but it’s on the other side of that it can be great joy as we grow and learn and you know experiencing that suffering with an autonomous you know kind of view of of the world in a different experience with you you I agree really agree so where you, now in your journey it seems like obviously you’re still growing is there anything that you’re feeling that you’re looking forward to her anything yeah started doing like him therapy for like my dissociation like six months ago and so been doing that and is the point of opening up the world more and I I know how important you know because the cold is so isolating not to mention I wasn’t even seen these people in real life on a human on weekly basis just like I I know I can learning how important it is to have a support system just in general obviously but you know when ruling I just isolation’s not good when you’re trying to make sense of all this stuff and so deftly kind and I’m deftly getting more to the point of wanting to leave behind that whole isolated way of living and you start developing friendships you know however that pans out and release you know just doing something more more healthy and in him and that way and I’m currently living in a really small town and population 250 leaders really meant it like nobody that I know besides my family is close by so in January I’m moving my myself and my business to bigger city and I am hoping to grow the business and start to branch out a little bit more I don’t really have any like concrete plans at this moment I’m still just like enjoying like the smaller things like we talked about and interestingly enough the girlfriend that I had in high school for four years she reaffirmed that but I split up with we were very closely come it didn’t end badly but we hadn’t spoken in my 12 years and then literally like two weeks after I was shunned to she contacted me and him that you and and she’s married now and and everything and then chose been really is been really nice to have her like as a friend you know again and going through all this she’s entering this social work field and so she kind of has a frame of reference for this for a lot of these things so I’m just been really great and really great encouragement through this process that is awesome I’m really happy for you that’s another funny how things work out sometimes isn’t it in 02 weeks later she reaches out to you that know what life will hold the arts interesting and she has this weird fascination with colts as well like like when returns are not everything like she had this has this weird fascination with colts also weird is normal and so it was just weird on all kind of pieced together when she came when she contacted me so that’s awesome maybe I get a new listener out of it seamless plug peer friend of is anything that’s that I wasn’t able to do I didn’t ask you that you specifically wanted to say like I know you I gave you the questions or whatever and and we kinda went off script a lot there enough there was anything you spent time you may be formulating an answer to that you would like to say like if you say anything to your family and friends that shun you or something like that you know if you had anything to say to those people will address it’s been it’s been interesting seeing the way like your friend likes my family wasn’t in the cold so they thought I was in the cold wallows in the cold and you know they just didn’t get it and stuff like that but it’s interesting to see know I’m out of the that it’s I don’t know what value does hold sharing a bill like they it’s been normal life it’s been a normal occurrence for me to realize that a lot of people don’t realize the significance of him being in a cold and it’s just not as sauce is awesome and it’s easy to communicate to people because they tend to attend so maybe maybe make them uncomfortable or I thought that the thought of that or they him they think that once you’re out of the cold that you’re just like happy like to be all and’s and measure should be something that you should come move on from very quickly you and so yes yesterday for anyone else that’s gone through that experience the pick for myself I haven’t really been able to talk to a lot of exquisite members but it’s I can definitely relate to the people feeling like people really see the depths I guess of how that experience kind of impacts life yeah for sure people will for one thing people don’t like see other people hurt so it’s easy for people that care about you to kind of dismiss what you’re going through a little bit just because they don’t want it to be that they want you to be okay they want you to be happy because I care about you but it’s also on the other hand they just they can’t understand if they never been through it and the it is a difficult thing done to explain the people really is it that it’s a very unique experience that thankfully I guess a lot of people will never have to go through but so but it is a process when you come out you don’t just leave those things behind immediately you have to you spent eight years in you’re not going to just walk away one day and be happy as it is not the way it works and then be careful that you don’t join join another colts yeah that’s the back they can be a very dangerous path for many things jump out a one into another one about the people that shun you now from that group is there anything that you would say to them there anything you would say two-year-old group on letter process in itself we I would say I would just wish to communicate to them how how sincere is there a workaholic how much I really believed what they believes and that I would also probably get into the explaining you know more of the physiological components may be the contributed to the wear acted in the it’s very dangerous for colts to keep you from to to keep you from people that have a better understanding of the way the body works and deals with trauma or whatever you call it that there is a real like physiology to the way those things affect us that can really confuse the mind and the body ends so I don’t know like I know it’s pretty common for colts to keep people from the world of psychotherapy are like mental health areas and that’s one thing that I feel is definitely dangerous and it’s a little time is on like it’s easy to say that occult is dangerous for like keeping someone from medical care for some fire asserting only right for physical this one for they also keep people from Suffolk and really helped him like my dissociation therapy it’s like literally physical rehabilitation type stuff so you know they really don’t know what they’re like they do have a lot of blind spots have a lot of things that they that they don’t understand about the world you when you’re a so focused on one booklet say the Bible that is literally all you can see how you’re missing out on a lot of of what’s going on in the world but you can washing your hands before eating yeah yeah I miss you just can’t be that focused on any one thing and still live a healthy life is just not make it happen this week they are either method would be of interest but they are they dissolve their group had a major falling out this past week that I found out about a couple days ago there was a major doctrinal dispute that literally almost flipped the group in half rethink and so am it’s kind of no longer the group that it was like us to consider so that’s been kind of is just a weird thing to see something like that happen there is a blogger actually FedEx that is has been trying to expose this quote for a long time and so I guess apparently he has insider access to the cold without knowing interesting so maybe some ethical issues going on there I don’t know but the blogger’s name or site I think it’s it so I WW be exposed I think that’s so like some communications of come out since the fallout that he publicly sure that really show very and very concrete terms that my grandson is really controlling and very like a kind of it’s due is difficult like you get subtle ideas over the years but like this like this the stuff that’s happened recently, things he said and done like this becomes very overt and very obvious that he’s more concerned about keeping people in this group people that are being swept away by the other group you know that his main then and just to see his tactics that he uses for trying to elicit fear people that go to the other side because it’s just like it’s it’s kind of vindicating but not in a really powerful way… It’s very weird to see it all I can overt way fear is the one tool that colts use for everything in it a really all just balls down to that you know the you scare people and control them through fear and the hopefully whatever the schism is will result in maybe some other people finding some freedom and some happiness in life as well and it’s a shame that these things continue to go on but the chances are as long as humans exist that that will that will happen because the fear is a very powerful tool as it is a powerful thing that causes sometimes human beings to do unspeakable things and the cyst not the super healthy tool to use you while I’m really glad that the that you were able to get out I’m glad that you’ve got professional help you through therapists that can help you to deal with your dissociation in and to define the evenness the small wins the color and life the joy and I hope that’s the hope you continue down that path and hope you I wish you well on the move I hope that that goes well that you start making some friends that you’re not isolated in the that you can make a life that’s that’s everything you you end up wanting it to be in the express your true authentic self without fear or without judgments think that something that that all of us are really looking for going to lunch and am thank you also for the of the form you want to do these kinds of things and to connect in this way is my pleasure man among glad to help really want to thank Nicholas for working through the mental trauma he’s been through ends at speaking about this even though it was very difficult for him at times of been in touch with them after the interview and because I do stay a few months ahead so it’s been a while since I’ve spoken to Nicholas but that he is doing much better he’s gone through various treatments for trauma he’s made his move to the big city and I couldn’t be happier for him things seem to to be going much better if you’d like to send a message to support the necklace you can do so by going to shun podcast.com where you can leave a comment form on his episode you can also find resources mentioned in any episode there you can find a video for the sound he chose to represent his journey Nicholas chose the song here in the vineyard by Anna and Elizabeth there to represent his journey while you’re@shunpodcast.com you can also send me an email you can send me a voicemail that I can use on the show there’s a tab on the right of each page where you can ask questions or leave comments that I can address on the podcast you could even support the show by picking up a T-shirt or a hoodie on the store on the site so there’s some shun swag therefore you all right now that’s not the only place you can comment on the episode or get involved we also have a Facebook group call shun podcast where you people get together and discuss episodes we discuss our own lives we try to do some fun things build community and try to be a building a supportive I also announced things in there before anywhere else even started this this month at a starting apostate pets post where everybody share their full four-legged apostates in their own those those kind of fun you can also find the podcast on YouTube under the channel shun podcast on histogram shun podcast or on twitter it shun podcast and in all cases those are one word if you like to hear my story and insight into how the occult of Jehovah’s Witnesses works you can do so at the podcast called this JW life also founded this JW life.com like to take the time to you just think everybody that helps me to make the show possible by supporting it financially it does take time and an energy effort there are expenses along with the hosting audio in the website transcript all that stuff as you know from the Vic as I posted the beginning of the year of step back from some cleaning work so that I can make some some time for doing double episodes this this month or this year doing two-month so if you if you want to support it if you can up to you it’s encouraging to see people who want to support what I’m doing here and you can do so@patrioton.com/shunned if you’re so inclined if you and if you don’t have the means or are so inclined you can also support the podcast both shunned or this JW life of one of the best things you can do is to recommend the podcast on other social media to share it so that other people can find it and also if you can leave a five-star review on iTunes or maybe even podcast apps wherever you can do so that helps the show to get found in searches and then more people can find it and I hear all the time I get emails from people who are being held or listening and ultimately that’s what this is about I want to help as many people as possible to the more time I had to dedicate to it and and the more that the podcast shows up in these different this is essentially whether search engines through these different podcast apps then more people can find that help in the next episodes can be the story of Georgia Georgia was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and even grew up in the now infamous Fremont congregation where Candace Conti one of the first big court cases ever over sexual abuse inside the cult was from Georgia also experience rape in her own life and unfortunately in and you see how that was handled in the fallout from it as it all relates to her life story in a closed episode out tonight there today because it really doesn’t matter what time I’m doing this because the episode out at whatever time it is for you I would the song know how yet by fair voyeur you can find a link to her song to the patriot on page the resources mentioned in more not just on the website with your listing on a podcast that you can also get it on the app by looking at the description on one last reminder don’t forget to sign up for the four week coaching/support group that we starting Sunday, March 10 seats are limited to just need six people and I look forward to seeing you join others in discovering things about your own life and journey is to shun podcast.com/coaching or go to the website to see the the page for coaching and if you sign up there will love will get you on board and I’m looking forward to doing this so as we and all episodes love others do no harm and go be happy in
Nicholas,
Interesting podcast, and thank you for your openness. I have just been shunned by this same group through a series of events. I opened myself to them quite a bit, but never felt a true part of the group either. The Lord showed me very definitely that He is not the author of confusion. One of their main teachers was always difficult for me to listen to, and as it turns out, is a convicted child molester. I did not go looking for this information about him, the Lord led me right to the facts. He would not discuss it, but had me shunned by lying about me, saying things I never said, a work of the Lord to get me out of there! Thanks be to God. He is merciful. I think there are many people in the group who are wonderful folks, but they are misled. I am recovering.