Episode Twelve – Mark is shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses

Mark Is Shunned By Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:07] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we get to hear stories from people that have been silenced by controlling religion. Today we’re going across the pond in our first ever international episode to hear from Mark who has shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses. Some of us from the jehovahs-witness.com forums know Mark as Pale Emperor there. That’s his handle Mark is a great guy. He has an adorable little girl. And at the end of this episode there’s a pleasant surprise for those who are unfamiliar with the recent happenings in Mark’s life so let’s just go ahead dive right in and meet Mark My name is Mark Jones. I’m 33 years old. I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I’m shunned. I’m Mark. So then how was it that you came about to be a Jehovah’s witness in the first place. Were you born Anna or did you come in later in life. I was born into the religion. My parents were my Petoskey given done background. My father came from a very strong Protestant family. When I say strong Protestant I mean he his parents his grandparents were very very heavily involved in a movement called the Orange Lodge. I don’t know if they had that America but in England it’s a very antique Catholic fraternity. Oh yeah. So I think in England in Liverpool and Ireland it’s a very very more anti Catholic than a normal.

[00:01:36] And my father even even when he was your hobbies witness hated Catholics on ice guess I suspect one of the reasons he got he was so willing to join the Jehovah’s Witnesses was because particularly in the elite literature they were very anti Catholic. Some of the scathing things they said about the Catholic Church. And I am aware that in the book studies family family worship I suppose you call it and he would if anything to do with Catholics he would bring up you know about the pope being involved with Hitler. And you know the revelation Balkwill talk about the Catholic Church being connected to all this and it wasn’t a year later when I realised when you look into that it wasn’t that it wasn’t that it wasn’t a clear cut. There wasn’t that the Catholic Church involved with Hitler as such it was a lot more to it than that. And there were others examples of the Catholic Church I’m hiding Jewish children and you don’t that China on a you know fight the Nazi regime but that was never mentioned in the Watchtower magazine. So my dad actually I was very very strong Protestant family. He came into it because he was initially opposed and his family to take turns chasing Jehovah’s Witnesses down the path. Naturally when they knocked on the door and they looked forward to witnesses knocking on the door so they could tell them where to go and chase them away. And as he told us the reason he became a Jehovah’s Witness was he was mean to somebody on the door.

[00:02:59] There is an old an old man on the Mount didn’t get angry with them back the man just looked kind of sad and said something like I only wanted to share something from the Bible with you but I hope you have a nice day and walked away and up and kind of made my dad feel bad and so he started accept magazines and eventually studying and of course they tell you things like you can see your dead parents again and you can see you know dead children again and Jehovah is going to kill all the bad people and that that kind of thing. But he warmed to him. My Mum became a Jehovah’s witness in the 70s. She was raised in foster homes here neighbours and sisters were raised in separate foster homes were splitting up as children. Their parents didn’t look after them at all. They did didn’t send the school they didn’t feed them and clothe them properly so they were raised in foster homes so they never really had parents and my mum had lots of stories about how she would she would come home from school and she would be cooking the dinner for her parents and she’d be doing the washing and the cleaning of the cooking and the ironing and the parents would spend all the money on drink. We did with half them whatsoever and in one of the foster homes when she was 15 so they knocked on the door was Jehovah’s Witness and she told them about you know God has a name on it and they gave her a book was called Paradise Lost Paradise. We gained which I will for the SJW who are active in them of literature you’ll notice the very graphic illustrations of native Armageddon and about this talked about people’s eyeballs rotting in their sockets and things like that. And even Yeah it’s it’s quite it’s quite.

[00:04:36] I mean my mum my mum always talked about us with fond memories and it wasn’t till I bought on eBay and when I was still a Jehovah’s Witness and I was going through what I couldn’t afford I noticed what Jesus had no beard in that book for some reason. And yet at that period of time the Watchtower Society were teaching that these didn’t have to be. I don’t know why it was. I actually I think it was because of that back in Rutherfords time rather forget it beards or even Jesus had to be bearded shaved. I think that’s why it was. Yeah it wouldn’t surprise me actually. And there was a copy of that book at my last kingdom hall library. I remember flicking through it and there’s a little girl and eldest daughter schmutz about nine and she would look up the book with me and I didn’t realize there was some there was what was coming up next with some graphic pictures. And one of the pictures was Armageddon that it was one of the one of the things that stuck in my head was a little girl with a doll falling into a hole because the gods got split the ground open and people are falling in this hole and that is a description where says their tongues will be ignored by worms and their flesh will fall off the bones and the eyeballs are on their socket.

[00:05:41] And there was a book for children you know and um my memory study with that book as a child she became a Jehovah’s Witness when she’s about 17 18 and her sister became a Jehovah’s Witness as well they stood at the same time and as it were to happen my mum and dad met in their accommodation they were in the same kind of home. And my mum sister and my dad brother also got married so they met. So the next thing you know you have you know the nicest brother two brothers maybe two sisters and so my cousins were also in the same accommodation as me which was nice. A lot of ways. But my family was so strongly and in oh I was gonna say the truth and I’m on a slow strong end of religion that they cut off everybody in their family who wasn’t a Jehovah’s Witness. So I’ve got cousins out there I don’t know who they are but it’s too dark even now add on who the ants mice. Mike Mike my family literally there were strong and in the village but they wasn’t only families that go on Saturday and Sunday because we had there was five children of my family. Um um we didn’t drive we met my family were quite poor. So let go into the meetings the ministry met you were walk there she could walk half an hour to the meeting half an hour back again if he wanted to go in the ministry you walk to the Territory as well so people couldn’t give you a lift in their cars. There were seven of you. So you walk. And so it was really a drudge go on that on the ministry um no good we didn’t like it pretend we like it either we didn’t like at all. But you do it because you have to do. As you know Mike and what happened then was going to say something at. So yeah I mean we didn’t go out on Sunday.

[00:07:22] Ember that we got on Saturday we’d only get on Sunday if we didn’t go Saturday. What I thought was what we did and we look at all the families who went out Saturday on Sunday. We just wondered how the hell they did it. We didn’t know was dumb or why would you do it or did those other families maybe have cars that attacked us. Yeah yeah. Um um um yeah. I mean like I remember my neck next door as I saw my cousins look it might be two cousins lived next door. And they they didn’t drive either but they were a small family it was a it was my uncle mounty are my my two cousins and of course the people could give them lifts you know. And my my aunty was quite popular even now she everybody in Liverpool knows who my auntie is because she’s very personable she’s she’s very active. Being a full time pioneer since 1978 No I mean but of course she believed Armageddon was going to come before her. She’s still waiting for that but um right yeah. So that’s that’s that’s a secret background of my family here. Gotcha. So then so you know you personally you know being raised as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. What was the world view that you had. How did you see everything around you. I remember um at a very early age and I can remember I wished I was I to read as a child even when I couldn’t read.

[00:08:39] I like to look at pictures and books and listen to the cassette tapes and I was very always very curious and always very studious and I remember a magazine. I think it was cold. I’ve got it written down on the one second. It did it did it did it it did it ish bear with me sir. Sorry. Come on come on bring out what culture people go look it up here. But there was a magazine called enjoy life on earth forever. Oh yeah. And this is a magazine. I think I don’t know whether it’s 10 and 10 of the children. But what one. It was very it was mostly just pictures with little numbers with like the Bible says this and the Bible says that and that’s where I at the age of four I think must’ve been four years old. I learned that there’s this thing called demons and demons like to pretend to be your dead relatives. Demons are watching you and demons look like to you know to take us away from Jehovah. And I on another picture. Which which coincidentally my mother show my daughter the other day which which miss the situation of people and Armageddon being killed and it was a clear picture of people dying or struggling go running away in fear. And it was Jehovah will destroy all the bad people. And it was all it was just that there are things I remember I don’t remember anything else about the magazine but it speaks volumes the fact that even now 33 years old I remember that magazine and I only remember the demon part and Armageddon part. Well yeah it’s terrifying.

[00:10:03] Again as a kid so so out so straight away as a kid I thought wow I’ve got to be a Jehovah’s Witness I guess stay safe in this religion. And that was merely my only safety. I thought it was because Jehovah is looking after us. And I always felt very close to God. I was always talking to Jehovah ahead. I mean that’s probably Mathilde’s knife I think for as a kid I was always praying to Jehovah. And whenever something worked my way like it I was in school. If I was afraid of something and pray if I felt better. To me that was proof that Jehovah was true Jehovah hell yeah. But if it didn’t happen it was all Jehovah was probably give me the strength to get through it. So it was a win win situation for the religion you know. But my worldview was the world is evil the world is bad the world is made to look enticing to draw you away from Jehovah. Nobody really loves you. But Jehovah’s Witnesses you can’t trust anybody but Jehovah’s Witnesses and is pagan any other religion is worship and Satan. People who are nice to you aren’t really nice to you. They’re just pretending to be nice to you so you’ll stop being a Jehovah’s Witness.

[00:11:08] And there was an occasion where I was I was on the ministry and I was working with my auntie who I mentioned was very very popular with the children and she was so mean she’s a lovely lady I mean even as they still THINK SHE LOVELY LADY she knows her Bible butterfly but it’s watchtowers interpretation of the Bible and I’m a being on the daughter of men who were there when I was a child and somebody gave us an Easter egg that it simply Mador and this this woman was very friendly very nice and she had all these Easter eggs because she has all these grandchildren and he says he takes some easter eggs. She gave me Easter eggs and my my auntie said thank you and stuff. We walked into the door and she took off me and smashed on the floor. Because it’s an easter egg you know I look out and I think I see all the chocolates for Auntie was like oh it’s a pagan fertility symbol. She smashed on the floor with a feet and then and I will and I’m not even a stupid thing to do. She just chucked an egg you know. Yeah but that was the wealthy Adam to me that was absolutely normal. It was like yeah that’s you know you don’t mix the militants together as the woman was nice but unfortunately she’s way being Zaydan without knowing it. Yeah it was a black and white black and white there was there was no no leeway there was no but nobody was nice if they went to Jehovah’s Witness she might even get pregnant an egg of the demons. There you go. I always wonder even now if you are a powerful demon would you waste your time with a chocolate egg or second hand and you would think they would have better things to do. Exactly exactly. But all that knowledge and power. I mean even I’m white that’s why you know I started I became an atheist eventually because I thought erm if you if you had a demon why would you open and close doors and windows.

[00:12:47] Where would you how would you do that. Yeah. Make a rocking chair move or something yeah that’s because got I’ve got to say I mean I. Customers are pretty good pairs and if I was an evil demon I would probably materialize in front of the president the United States and say I’m going to possess your body and I rule the world. That’s what I would do if I was a demon. Some would say that has already happened with theU.S. it may be a good one with childhood like at home for you growing up as a witness. Actually looking back on my childhood I’m hoping a happy childhood. But I think that’s because I didn’t know I didn’t know we were poor because I was led and we didn’t make would not Jehovah’s Witness children but had met through non Jehovah’s Witness family. Everyone I knew was Joe’s witnesses and my best friend was my cousin who lived next door and we were all the same boat really and Amber all of my all of my clothes were second hand. The food we had was with it. My dad worked but my mom didn’t for some reason. And our family women didn’t work it was always No you stay home. So there wasn’t much food going around but there was enough our house looking back it wasn’t the best but at the time I didn’t realize that either you would. So we we were content we were we were happy you know we had no Christmas no birthdays. But again I didn’t miss them I never had them. I do remember the youth we we’d have.

[00:14:08] I don’t know what you call an America but in England we call them surprize days. So there’s meant to be a sort of shoot for birthdays or subsidy for Christmas. But you didn’t have anything to eat at well even then. We only had three of them in my whole life. I can remember three of them. I’ll bet you it affected me later in life because um when I left the Jehovah’s Witnesses it was difficult for me because I birthed it when it’s my birthday. I didn’t know what to do. I did. It did. I didn’t really feel like doing anything because it was never an important thing. I always will. Last Christmas I was the first time I did Christmas properly with my girlfriend my daughter my daughter and her daughter and I said to her I feel bad accepting a gift because if I accept a gift and to post it should I give you money or should I give you that. And she’s like No you just take the gift. I think I’m counting how many gifts I got how many gift she got nothing and do I buy a wealthier gift. It really was strange. Yeah it was. And it sounds it to people who had ever been Jehovah’s Witnesses A plumply sounds so strange but to me it was I don’t know what to do and unbirthday as well at my daughter’s birthday last year. And I did a birthday with me and her. And people were saying to me Oh and did you do this and did you do that. Say no I got a cake and choices and did you do that now.

[00:15:24] Done stunt on me I didn’t know what to do it either I’d it properly probably you know people who do Christmas and birthdays know what they do they had they had the family round they know what to cook who sit where what food you have where you buy that. So he’s from when you buy the toys. I did. I bought Christmas gifts literally two days before Christmas outwits apparently don’t do. You meant to do it week before. Oh I think there are a lot of people who buy his or her hair. And again. But on traditions and we never had those traditions. We don’t have any history to pull from. Exactly. And Amber I got a Christmas tree. The first time I had no idea how to put it up I’d managed to do it. Didn’t know how to decorate it. So me and my daughter Basey just made a mess of it and just put things on the tree. You know she’s 3 years old so she just said to her I was just for her hair. It was her first time doing it as well. But that will be normal for her growing up. But to me I had no no clue when I was being gone Mike and my friends who had been witnesses and asking them what you know what goes where. How do you do this.

[00:16:26] And then you went to my girlfriend’s house and she put her Christmas tree up with the tree she’s had for years and years and how little Gail knew exactly what to do and and it was nice in a way that my my daughter will will see this as normal but for me I’ll always be like a strange novelty that maybe in years to come it will become an honor for me. But still even now it doesn’t seem like a big deal you know. Right. It still seems like I’m and I’m I’m because I’m observing somebody else’s tradition. No I totally understand that. Yeah. It’s like you crash somebody else’s party. Yeah and that party doesn’t really mean much to you but you’ve got to figure out some way to have fun while you’re there. So yeah I mean I understand my wife and I have big traditions or anything either. But I think kind of the cool thing is that you know it’s with you and your daughter you know you can start your own tradition. You can make it whatever you want. Yes. So that’s pretty cool. But it’s hard when you don’t come from a background of that at all. Yeah. So now you know at home you you grew up poor. What was that like at home as far as like as Jehovah’s Witness activities went. Obviously Sivers wasn’t a big deal to you did you all have to do like family study all the time or were you all big into anything like that. The fun I was I was very interested in. I wouldn’t say I was the best Jehovah. Well certainly wasn’t the person I was with us. I was very interested in the Bible rounds. You know God and things and it always wonder what you went into was how magazines and they bring out like a fine point about a sad encounter.

[00:18:12] I thought wow so somebody in Bethel must have searched outside the Watchtower to get that information. So I would search outside information for the washed out. So I would look like Catholic encyclopedias and you’re not animals you know that Mark. You’re not supposed to do that. Which which I led. Very quickly they don’t like you do that because I was giving a talk. I used to it. I used to be the stand in to a guy you know I just enjoy giving talks. And I would research a talk within like 20 minutes of somebody say I’m not going to be that 10 up and I’d do a tour. And I brought out on the platform a quotation from a Catholic bishop and I always like to cite cite my sources when I was up there so it wasn’t just me saying something the Watchtower doesn’t do with the Lotus. Right. So and I quoted this Catholic bishop but I said something and then later on one of the elders approached me and said Did you find the information on the Watchtower Library. And I said no I found it on your little internet and was on like the Vatican website or something. And he was appalled he was horrified that I’d been I’d looked outside the washed out society seedy room and you know I actually looked up yeah. How terrible are unarmed. And he said and he asked me do you do this often. And I said Well I studied all the time. Are a lot of things you know. And I think they want to arrange a visit but I’d never materialized.

[00:19:33] But I realized yet they don’t like looking outside and growing up as a as a kid. I mean in England we have a thing called Aari and school which is religious education and is mandatory in England that they teach in religious education as a lesson. But my parents got me out of that. So I went through five years of high school without any religious education. So my aunt my own my entire world view of religion was from Watchtower literature. So anything I knew about Catholics was from watchtower. I knew about Muslims Mustafah Koreans Buddhists Jews was from Watchtower wasn’t from Jews it wasn’t from Buddhists it wasn’t from Muslims it was from what Watchtower said about them. So I was very studious when I started researching and looking and see what I’m looking at Christianity from other angles. It just gave me more questions because sometimes other religions would have an answer which makes more sense than what Watchtower says. And I got to the point where I stopped believing certain things the Watchtower was saying but I didn’t mention it like I didn’t believe shunning should happen. I absolutely did not agree with that at all simply because Jesus never did it right. And when they said about will they always bring our Fiskum into the INS. But Paul says remove the wicked one from among you. My first problem with that was realisable. Well Jesus overrides Paul but Paul says it it’s OK.

[00:20:58] Good you what Jesus said you know lived in a by yourself and you know Jesus didn’t run away from the Pharisees Jews didn’t run away from the devil when the devil spoke them more powerfully spoke to. And I always thought it’s it’s not that it’s not the actions of a village in the has the truth you know. If so I’ve got a I’ve got a a person I work with who believe the world is flat. I know nothing he says to me convinces me the world is flat because I know the world round right. And it would be ludicrous for someone to say to me don’t hang around with a guy because he might affect your mind. You think the world is flat you know Ratto dead. That was the shining side of Ed and a good showing. I had a problem with the hundred and forty four thousand. Nothing to do with them. 6 0 7 day be it wrong. I didn’t know that at the time. The whole hundred forty four thousand thing was as I read it. It was a symbolic book symbolic people but a literal number. I think as a white who’s deciding which is literal who deciding which is symbolic as a type of faithful and discreet slave. It’s exactly of an illustration and they take that one part of the verbiage and make that a literal thing and then point seven men and call them that. So yeah and hours after thought as well. If we’re honest that there’s been so many sincere people throughout throughout the ages who have been in different Christian religions like Martin Luther for example who’s very well educated and he never mentioned anything like that. You think he would have mentioned it. You think somebody would have stumbled across a Asuna on it.

[00:22:31] If if God wanted if that was a true teaching from God it would be very very clear. And also I thought this probably more than likely more than one hundred forty four thousand Christians in the first century. Oh yeah yeah that was that was always so messed up because we never we had no basis. You know what. No had ever been in the path. They just yelled it out of thin air. Yeah. And even now you know the numbers are going up out of the story and the numbers now. Well you know we know that’s that but now you have to go in the wrong way. And I do suspect that that’s because more people are aware that is probably a bogus teaching and they think they all go to hell. They think everyone’s go to heaven and they deal with the partaking of the emblems to be safe. I mean I’m an atheist myself but I do believe that Jesus was teaching that anybody goes to heaven if they accept and thus I think my belief now is when it was first hundred forty four thousand. I believe that Jesus is talking about literal Jews who are chosen to have a special job in heaven. That’s what I think is too but that’s that’s neither here nor there because I don’t believe the bible anyway. Yeah. So I was offered the times of the mike sorry. That’s OK. That’s OK. So. So. All right. So you kinda went through. You know at home. Kind of what it was like. What was it like. Now I know what school you got out of the Army classes.

[00:24:01] Yeah. How did it being a witness impact you in school. Other than that like like I know in the United States we have to we would have to salute the flag every morning. And so that was something we could never do. So literally every day of our lives as kids started out taking a stand against saluting the flag. So I’d like for you like how did it manifest itself in your school career. Well well well I was somewhat fortunate. We don’t have that nationalism that we Americans have we have in England we just can’t we don’t really care about the flag. I mean the where she’ll get maybe sing the national anthem but that’s very rare. You mean mostly but over the way is the national anthem in this country we don’t really care about what we had would be. Maybe you’ll have somebody visit in like like a religious person would visit the school and give a little lesson about God or something. And at the end they give a prayer. And anybody would just bowed ahead even though they’re not religious. And to be a teacher looking around to see who isn’t bound the head just to see if would being like you know disrespectful or something. And that was it. Book we were made to feel proud to do that. You made the. We were always made to feel like you know the the three Hebrews like Schudrich Michigan Abednego and likely didn’t bowed out of Idol and you’d feel kind of good inside because you know you’re standing up for your religion. But apart from that I was okay.

[00:25:27] The school was skills a kind of respectful towards religion they don’t skate again involved when it comes to religious matters. So personally you know that’s it can it can kick off all kinds of things. So the candidate were very respectful. I never went to them what they call assemblies and school every morning we’d have like the entire school would turn up in the hall. The school hall answered the cello headmaster would give a talk about something and then at the end they’d sing hymns. So I would say I wasn’t in them so I did. So what happened was the big announcements about school or school trips. I wouldn’t do anything about them because I wasn’t there you know or even like prize giving they get prizes like trophies or certificates and sometimes my name was called and I didn’t get them because I wasn’t there. That’s the way I stick out. I mean I was never bully from a religion. I was fortunate that I was never believed about it because there was a kid in my year whose parents were Jehovah’s Witnesses and he was kind of popular. He was in with the in crowd and he was in he was it eating grounded all that older boy. I don’t want you in an American public called them jocks over here to have eyes you know go a football and the fights and stuff and he was friends with them to normal pick on him because he is a Jehovah’s Witness but he’s tough Nomad. Nobody would make fun of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

[00:26:44] I got up out of it because I kind of avoided being bullied for religion because um I was very quick witted. I mean I mean I’ve done stand up comedy over here. So now the humor is something I’m good I can make people laugh and stuff. So I got out of difficult situations by making somebody look silly or by making them laugh. I’m a lot of people become a comedian. They got a situation with their wit that’s it so and that was it. So school was it was OK. I mean the only thing negative impact on me was that when it came to my friends because I mean my own friends that obviously the way Jehovah’s Witnesses but they were all like me we had we were geeks. Man we like to you like Magner Cheston sci fi and we thought we were cool but obviously we went home. And I would have liked to have seen an outside school van and they did. They all was hunger after school and I never I wasn’t there and I’d miss out on things they were talking about and I’m looking back I was pretty harmless stuff. You know it was like going to each other’s house playing console games and school ball or or even I just don’t know I’d be together or something. But obviously I was never allowed to do that with them. So I’m kind of missed out on that. Um and it’s this shameful thing is now as even now 33 years old they’re still friendly to them and I don’t know who they are where they are. So I could have had a really good friendship. Yeah that’s true yeah. And there was a distrust of anybody who wasn’t a witness like my parent.

[00:28:12] They knocked on my door to say do you want to come to my house for something. And my parents would tell them no. Because you know I’m allowed to go out with them and they’d be wonder why I’m the real reason is because I’m not a Jehovah’s Witness and that’s the reason right. And it’s a stupid reason because because some of them were Catholic some of them a Protestant some of them are atheists. Some of them you know tend to find something else but that never got in the way. But my religion did get in a way and that now I’m a disposed to be. We’re supposed to be the loving religion was supposed to be the good ones for example but here we are Antena of religion of separating people and not join it together. Now complete isolation exactly as such social isolation and and you know it you see in so many different things. Now when you look out you look back if you if you isolate people it breeds prejudice. You know the look of things did about North Korea for example that all isolated from the outside world. They’ve gotten crazy beliefs about the outside world. And they’ve got no way of knowing what the outside world is like and they just told what it’s like and that’s that’s what they think it’s like. And I always like North Korea like the Jehovah’s Witness mentality. No no absolutely. There’s a lot of similarities there. So so the North Korea for a for being in you know what Joe as witnesses was the actual kingdom hall like that while your little area.

[00:29:30] So how was life and your little North Korea in your little kingdom hall like The View. Did you have a lot of friends. How did you know. I know you said you liked giving talks. So did you enjoy your time at the Horler Melville. I had no friends and no friends. When I was when I am the king the war that I grew up in. There was lots of children of my age that this is about four or five years old. There’s lots of CHAUD. I think there was there’s a lot of families with children so there must have been about 25 children the same age as me which is a phenomenal amount to kids but what tends to happen which I’ve since learned is quite common with the Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world. Is there a social clicks. Oh yes. So you have the elders families and they’re all friends and there’s the mistake or servants and their families who are probably going to be friends with the elders and those people who just don’t really want to hang around with you which is fine. And then this is my family which is what we were poor and hopefully some of us views about association when we went by association. We were just not as nice as a regular in the ministry as other people were but I didn’t make an association that just met me but difficult to get out. You know I’m so I had I had no friends. I only have my brothers and sisters my cousins. And then when I I grew up and moved to a different conversation again I had no friends.

[00:30:59] The reason being I think the only way I think this could be is um that my sense of humor is very what’s that. This is why I don’t like a dry sense of humor has kind of um. If something’s obvious I’ll point it out and I’ll say you know yeah like for example a man’s accommodation I’m but three years ago there was a there was there was like two or three single brothers about their late 20s and they were single and every time a girl came up to the congregation they were always talking to this girl always told to her but none of them will ask her out because they’re both too nervous to ask her out. Right. And this girl is a pretty pretty girl. I mean nice person but she probably wait for somebody to ask her out. Everybody would say yes you know. But no one they can move about it. Right. Right. So I’ve said to one of these guys look either ask her out or leave her alone. And I wasn’t a horrible idea. I’m laughing so and I say Look married said Scott LBA. Just ask her Ebola. And then next thing I know these guys when I had her army because. Because out of sight like it is. You know. And I think also that I was very vocal in the sense if someone did something that I thought was hypocritical. I pointed out I’m not doing it to be to be malicious or anything it’s just you know we’ve all seen the same thing here.

[00:32:13] Why is nobody dealing with it like you’d have like an elder who would there’s a situation that will see which complication it was in an elder basically kissed somebody else’s girlfriend. This is as a married elder who kissed somebody else’s girlfriend he did a bit more than kissing. But it wasn’t sex it was something else. And he was reproved. And the woman was the scholarships and. And it came out later on that he was approved because his dad was a sacr Obasi. Well there you go. There you regardless of I was like you know I’ll go Woodhull’s this is a very good gossip and so we all knew what that we said what I did. I said you know I was out of a witness little party get together. I said to somebody in private. I said Well you know that’s not right rarely. It’s like the sacr overseer can override something like that and say oh no this guy just does reproving. If that’s the case then that does not mean Jehovah agrees with so so if George doesn’t agree with doing this guy a disservice he should be dealt with judicially. That’s what God wants to sweep it under the rug is going to help this guy because I was a believer that I believed you know he needed help. Yeah yeah. You were trying to do what you thought was the right thing. Yeah. The next thing. But then you find it when you when you have that kind of mentality if you’re if you’re honest with the way with what you think and you use humor.

[00:33:30] People don’t want to have morality because they think you know bad association or maybe he’s not spiritual just because he doesn’t know which he knows and play guitar with Kingdom songs like you see in the magazines. You know apparently that’s what we do. I mean this is. Oh yeah. We all sit around and are perfectly divided multicultural groups working wearing casual clothes our best casual clothes and singing Keenum songs. Let’s get the orange juice is always orange juice on the table. Yes. Yes. So how did how did it go. You know so you know being that outspoken and you know not really having a good circle of friends and everything how did it go as you as you started you know in your teenage years as you start to get it you know approaching adulthood. Know did you have plans to go to college. Were you hoping to go to. I guess your version of Batho which would be the branch or something or like yeah. What were your goals. What were you going for. How is life for you. My goals were to study in university. I didn’t know what I want to do first. And when I got to about 16 17 year old the high schools in England kind of give you the thing called options where you pick specific subjects you want to study in secondary school for the last two years. And I chose some said subject because I had hoped to become a vet because the kind of thing interested me. And I went to pay picked like no sports biology chemistry all these things.

[00:35:14] And then as the US progressed when I left school my grades weren’t good enough for university to study veterinary medicine but it was good enough to study to be a doctor to be to go to well not not initially where you could go and study these subjects and then progressed to medicine you know but they were good enough to get started on that. And I was glad I had an interest in that as well. So I started to pursue as I’m looking into courses what we call A-levels in England which is like the step below university to to get you into university to study medicine. And I was going down that road and then I start to get pressure from my family because Armageddon was going to come and any second you know was just around the corner and the elders were you know would randomly turn up to see how I was and they’d say you know how I have potential to be an elder potential to be a minister’s servant and it be such a shame to lose me to like the universe is of the world where they probably teach evolution you know basically just demonising the secondary education thing. Absolutely. They barely do it. They really they didn’t want me to go to university. I didn’t really have a reason why they didn’t tell me why exactly although looking back I can see why it was because obviously university they teach critical thought which they didn’t want me having. So I basically just scrapped the whole idea of studying medicine scrapped the whole idea going to university and I took a normal office job because I believed Armageddon would come the next couple of years and that was 17 years ago. So if you work it out I could have studied medicine qualified become a doctor.

[00:36:49] I’ve been practicing medicine for eight years by now so. So if you look at that way it’s like if any Jehovah’s Witnesses listen to this and who are hoping to study met them anything at university I’ll just tell you that they were telling me when I left school that Armageddon would be here and it isn’t and they were tell my dad’s and my granddad that Armageddon would be here before they leave school. And it isn’t here and it would be it would be foolish to um to Tinos just to presuppose that Armageddon would come within the next few years because the Bible says nobody knows nobody knows and so nobody knows. There’s nothing wrong with going to university expanding your mind and helping the human race by becoming a doctor or a scientist or something. Now for all we know you know I could have been used in Bethel as a doctor which they do. They did Jehovah’s Witness doctors now which is ironic right. Yeah. They tell you not to go to university. But then if you do qualify they they take you you know. So yeah because even they know that they need doctors. Yeah. You know they don’t want you to be one. Yeah. And they said they need lawyers. So then you you’re out of high school you’re you’re bypassing college you’ve gotten yourself an office job you said are you are you trying to pioneer or anything or are you just kind of live and live in life and now I’m just I’m not I’m just living life you know.

[00:38:16] It was the first when I first got a job and your first paycheck it’s like oh wow I feel better you know. So so you start enjoying it so. So my by this point in my life my my I have two sisters my sisters were popular because they chose witness guys wanted to date. There was a night there was a lot of parties happening in my teenage years. A lot of witness parties in my teenage years and early 20s my sisters were get invited because everybody fancies them and I get invited because my sisters know that if you put me in a room of people I don’t know I will know the whole room within an hour. I do think I wake the room. I go around like everybody I speak about and people I have a knack for connecting to people. I don’t know why that is. My sisters know that if I go with them I can get to know people and I can introduce them to people and I can get people you know where I can get parties. I’ve always been able to do that. You were there wing man. I was their wingman. Yeah. And it worked out well in some regards because there was some like you know there’s definitely a party scene in Liverpool but you would see things like sometimes you go to parties where they were very well it’s just a worldly book. There were very non Jehovah’s Witness you know who I am but I can’t remember two particular ones where one was some guy. His parents owned a garden centre and they went on holiday to America.

[00:39:33] And so while this whole garden centre was empty this guy decided to throw a massive party in this Garden Centre’s maze. It was a wasn’t just fantastic. And I remember there were people just making out with each other. There were people in the showroom pool with no clothes on. There was people ball probably having sex upstairs you know. And one was Amber one was an eldest son who is in one of these rooms which I assume they were having sex he was when there were two girls and their brawls were on the door handle outside. These are Jehovah’s Witnesses. But right now Berriman the Jehovah’s Witness Yuanqing of teens. Yeah. Now if I wasn’t a Jehovah’s Witness I wouldn’t think of this I think well you know they’re doing what they want to do. But I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I wasn’t sheepish tricked but I also think Amanda Spatz and I and me and my sisters left that party after about two hours. We stayed two hours before we got up and we went to someone else’s house like you know and there’s not a party going on there. And the next day and the Kingdom Hall next day was a Sunday. One of the eldest started to visit all of us to see who was at the party what happened and who was with him and what happened and I just said I was there but I didn’t see nothing. I didn’t mention it was his son in the room with two girls iLevel death.

[00:40:50] But nothing came of that you know I mean I think I think to people from like Manchester which is like the next city where the two of them disfellowshipped there was maybe a few you know marking talks but nobody really got dealt with but there was definitely more than more than windows put it more than bad things going on there you know there was there was cigarettes alcohol sex marijuana that was all there. Not Jehovah’s Witnesses. Mark Oh yeah that stuff but you’d be surprised oh no I wouldn’t be surprised or Yeah. It’s funny how they outwardly projected their parents are being wholesome and clean but you have no idea what goes on in you know behind closed doors or at parties or whatever. There is a lot of stuff that goes on that people most witnesses have no idea what goes on within their own congregation. No I’ve always say even when I was waking up from the Jehovah’s Witnesses I used to say to people well I just wish people out there would be a Jehovah’s Witness. I don’t be one don’t sit on the fence you know because because if you want to go to parties like that and do that that’s absolutely fine if he want to. I’m not going to judge you for that able. But don’t pretend that it’s a God fearing Bible Jehovah’s Witness and do those things because that’s not what Jehovah’s Witnesses are meant to do. And I’ve got nothing. I have no problem with individual Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s the Watchtower Society I don’t like but the individual Jehovah’s witnesses I believe are good people out there. They’re kids at 17 18 19. That’s what kids do right.

[00:42:28] I mean why if I wasn’t a Jehovah’s Witness now my party I would have a lot more than what I did but that’s normal life that kind of thing happened but don’t pretend to be what you’re not. You know if you wanted that lifestyle going live it and don’t pretend that that was them that was that while. And then there’s another situation another party where this guy had epic party he vanished now lets go. Buddha finally had one party that was a little too Epica I think yeah I Umbers he left and um a an area in Liverpool called Butel which is a rough area of Liverpool. But what he would do he would have he had a house and he would empty his house of furniture and put it in a moving back side so that every room is how his empty and he would have a massive party in his house like all night and there were fantastic parties and I must know what to look for five of them. I remember that was I remember these parties because every time I went to one of his parties I always got the girl. I don’t even know why because he was popular. He would have like witnesses from Manchester London Birmingham Wales Scotland all coming to his parties because they knew his parties were good so you’d meet like people from all over the place where you’d never get a chance to meet these people otherwise if you weren’t invited his parties you and anybody he would you wouldn’t get to meet people you know. So I decided to enjoy those parties they were cool but then this guy obviously wasn’t a Jehovah’s Witness he thought it was all crap. He was stuck in it because his parents were in it you know.

[00:43:58] So I never had a problem with him in the sense of he wasn’t pretending to be anything else he was just going along with it because he had to which I wish we can all relate to he’s disfellowshipped now. I haven’t seen him on Facebook or anything but um if he’s listening yeah yeah yeah some great parties mate. Thank you. Shout out to that brother. Yeah I do want to say his name yeah yeah yeah dad. So then how did how did your adulthood play out then you know before you ended up eventually leaving the religion I think you were married correct. Yes I know a little bit of yours story. Yes. How did all that transpire. How did that build up. Well there’s there’s an important thing happened just before that was that when I was team my father got cancer and died and the whole from from diagnosis until he died happened quite quickly it was and I think he was diagnosed with it. And by the time they found out it was oh it was Riddle thought was body. And about three months later he was dead. So those are pretty quick to deal. You had to could deal with that pretty quickly you know come to terms with that and what the effect the heart was. My family became even more strict with the religion because the only hope of seeing them again was to get through the new system. My sister was one of my sisters particularly and I’m convinced the only reason she’s Jehovah’s Witness is because she wants to see her dad again.

[00:45:17] I don’t I know she doesn’t agree with a lot of the teachings but the reason she thinks she will see him again if he stays a Jehovah’s Witness. And then I had like a mini crisis of faith during his sickness. And I thought was I used to think like it’s if God is real then why does he just step in and stop this stuff or why is the bottom again by now. You know and then after my dad died I contemplated leaving the religion. And then of course I was told to wait on Jehovah just just study more and put all the doubts the back of his mind. And then I visited Bethel in New York and I saw like all those smiling happy faces and people saying how wonderful it is to be here. We’re all happy and everything. And then I came back convinced it was the truth because of this so-called love they have amongst themselves which would later find out is all fake. So that that happened that then I visited another accommodation. A friend of mine but our friend is an elder son who was who was very very shy and he asked me to go with his family to give a talk and the conversation again was because I’m the guy who can speak to people and introduce you to them. That was about half that I went to. This other conversation. I met a woman who eventually I would date her and six months later I’m engaged and six months later married so married within a year of meeting a witch and the Jehovah’s Witness well is absolutely normal. Oh yeah I was married to my wife then for a month. Yeah. So yeah very very quick courtship there yeah.

[00:46:52] And you’ll know Michael at that um it’s not till you’re married and living together then you then you really know who you married to. Oh sure am as a witness. With the way they date and with the chaperones that you are my everything else like there’s no possible way of having any idea who it is that you’re really marrying. There’s no no. And you know I’m Amber I’m OK our courtship was she was very close to her family. If I’m on it her dad’s an elder. And from what I’ve seen when I was going out with her that her family were very close and they were like in the centre click of the congregation because all their friends were elders families and it was like Wow I’d never be able to speak to these people you know in this click normally. So I thought it was fantastic be this wonderful social circle I was at the Central. I know you were there with a chaperone all the time and stuff and then um something happened we got married and living together and after about a week things started that you start to notice things like um you know I don’t have a parent but in our case the only thing we had in common was our religion. But as a Jehovah’s Witness that’s a good enough reason you know that that’s what they tell you to look for as their quote spiritual qualities. You know do they go to meetings. Can they show up on time. Do they knock on doors. They thought that that’s what it’s all based on is just the commonality of the cult doctrine. Yeah.

[00:48:20] You know she didn’t like the fact that I had friends who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses from work. I’m even now my best friend as a gay man. And she didn’t like the fact that there’s a gay friend did that the fact that some my friends are women who aren’t witnesses because the Jehovah’s Witness mindset that automatically means I’m going to have sex with them doesn’t it. You know how you’ve just been you know that thing that they want to tell us that is more sex more than anybody else but you know because. And so there was that and then there’s things that stands out. Mean that she had health issues of her own which I didn’t know. She has OCD and severe OCD. She had a desire to see which would which would eventually turn into depression and she started self harming as well. And the reason was. Well I know now the reason was the pressure she was under to conform in a census. Now soon she got married. She couldn’t rely on her elder father to be the center of a social circle. Now she hatches out on her own her own family and she suddenly found herself not in the social clique anymore because she’s not an elder’s wife she’s not an elder. She’s so that that took it took a big toll on her. She too is you know trying to do more do more do more study more and more do all this. And she became very ill. I mean almost like that she wasn’t eating you look like a you know like anorexic or something.

[00:49:38] A lot of you know I don’t want to say a lot of those disorders. You know OCD is about control anxiety is about a lack of control. Eating disorders are often about control and you know when you’re in a cult and you have no control over your life then you’re trying to find it anywhere you can. Yeah those disorders are really pretty common among Jehovah’s Witnesses because the situation is so out of control. I had some OCD tendencies though nowhere. Beyond that OCD spectrum and a lot of anxiety and it was all because of being so out of control in the cult. Yeah. And you know since leaving you read out that there’s a high high volume of people who are Jehovah’s Witnesses who suffer from depression and suffer from self harm as well as the big one from my last complication I know personally I know 27 people out of 75 complications who are depressed. I know eight of them personally who were on medication for clinical depression. That’s quite a high volume of people for just one year. When it comes to self harm that’s not something I’m qualified to talk about but my my my my ex-wife did self harm at a time and also some of the friends in the occasions she would tell me who also self harm. I never really understood why on that basically it was born out of frustration. You know I just said there was no control in their lives that they had control over cutting themselves or bending themselves was was them taking control in some way. Well that’s not how it was explained to me by them.

[00:51:20] And you know that is that’s not something I would make light of that that’s a serious thing. And so yes. So we were married and then we were half hip per family. As I say was the eldest family and they were all friends with elders families and then we went on holiday to whales that they like going hiking and things and camping and stuff. And I we hide in a massive cottage and this a whale somewhere and there was me and me on my wife Heff family and two of the elders families. Now the two other elders I’m going to say are assholes they are. I would never hang around these guys in the real world the kind that are at fault. My Michael is Megan and that I think I think that is a qualification to be an elder. But I think I think it is a qualification and iambus sitting at the dinner table. I think I’ve told you about this in and online somewhere but sit around the dinner table said. And my father in law I started talking about a judicial committee he just been on and he was named to the person he named what it was they did and he talked all about the ins and outs of it and then his wife my mother in law said Yes well his wife he was always like this and his wife was always like that. So his wife knew the ins and outs of the judicial committee and then the other two elders there start talking about judicial rape and on and on they talked about judges not all three have been on the talking about things that I shouldn’t know about and their children shouldn’t know about.

[00:52:44] And why shouldn’t know about. So when you go I mean I’ve been on a judiciary committee myself and they say to you whatever said in this room stays in this room and we don’t tell anybody about it. If again any Jehovah’s Witness is listening. That is not true. I know things that I shouldn’t know about people from Alaska immigration. I did. I knew what it was like. Yeah. If if they if they knew that I know what what they did they would be mortified. And again and you want one comment that really hit home annoyed me was the Jewish judicial committee that all three of them have been on that they just had they said but the so and so you know he did this thorough. You can see he was repentant but we disfellowshipped him anyway and they all laughed. And that guy hasn’t come back to the religion and his family is shunning his family his life is destroyed by that religion. And they thought it was funny to disfellowshipped them because they wanted to get home or watch a football match and he still disfellowshipped now. I don’t know who he is. The way he is always doing like book. And that’s bad because you know shunning being shunned. You can have to cope with that or you can’t cope with it and if you can’t cope with that you in for a tough ride. You know you need support of people and especially from your family and his family. Shunning him. And it’s sad. So yeah I mean things will progress with the marriage and things didn’t go too well.

[00:54:06] I mean I did love. I did. She said she loved me but she didn’t really show it much. But I was committed to say well I’m married I’ll just stay my way to an end and the new system should be better I suppose. And that was that was what most I was committed to do when I start she started to be sectioned in hospital for self harm and anxiety and things and she’d we had it we had a baby girl and thought the pregnancy she was shunned because she says she did something and she was disfellowshipped and she was repentant she told the elders for that she did. And she was repentant about that she told the elders the same day and they disfellowshipped her anyway and I was on the Judiciary Committee where they said that the elder said and I said and I quote We can see your repentance but we must as fellowship you anyway to make you learn. Wow. So when when I read what time magazine is a lie where it says people are only just vanishing for being unrepentant or people only just finished for being prideful or hiding their sin. This wasn’t the case at all. And that was a massive thing for me I doubt that when a massive change at that if I wasn’t certain judicial committee or if I didn’t hear those words I may well have been still a Jehovah’s Witness the day because that set off a lot of a lot of thought in my head. I started to research the history of this organization. So she was shunned the entire pregnancy.

[00:55:25] She didn’t have any friends no family spoke to a shadow only person who spoke to her during the entire nine month pregnancy was made and she really hard. Yeah that’s got to be really tough. Yeah. And of course you know she said she that she’s not any any French who went Jehovah’s Witnesses because she was a good Jehovah’s Witness she had no worldly friends. So she had no way to tend to and she couldn’t talk to non Jehovah’s Witnesses when she disfellowshipped because she went to get reinstated. So she’s trying to do the best job she can be. And I remember a boat she was walking in the snow to the Kingdom Hall and people would drive past her and she’s like nine months pregnant you know and there was there was no there’s no common sense you know this this person is pregnant she’s there you know there is no love there’s no love. And eventually she was reinstated after the birth. She was reinstated. I know people are called to a hogan. Oh we’re so glad. Oh we love you was so wonderful was they both. This is the person who drove past you in the snow. You know this is if you see someone who’s who’s heavily pregnant walking in the rain or in the snow or carrying heavy shopping bags you don’t even have to know them you stop your car and you ask them. Give me a lift. Of course you have that common humanity and decency. Yeah. But this was like Jehovah’s Witnesses to another Jehovah’s Witness.

[00:56:44] But just because she and the people don’t even know why she was disfellowshipped so that even a the Charlena you know so obviously she was she was repentant anyway. Yes. Should an election now. So I said to her while she was being shunned I said to her you know I mean I was having a lot of doubts about the religion. I said look this is this is your opportunity now if we could just not go back you know I’ll not go back. And she said no I’ve got to go back to my family. I want sympathy. She didn’t say you got to go back true. You said I’ve got to go back on my family. I want my family back. Right. And when when she went to hospital to give birth I remember we deliberately left her blood card at home because if she has a blood transfusion she gets one. And if our daughter child needs one that she’ll have one. And I think her father showed up at the hospital and asked me to see a copy of the book of the document and the HLC people tended to do a really intrusive trying to see how she got a card with how she got card with her. And we said no no we’ve left our home. You know I drove home and got it and brought it home. And the HLC guys even brought blank copies with them to fill one in them and then cut the light so I said to my wife and secret Look if if if the child needs a blood transfusion I’ll say yes I’ll get disfellowshipped. And that’s what we’ll do what she said. OK. Because I can cope being shunned and she can’t so. So that was the plan.

[00:58:11] Unfortunately it did not. They didn’t come to that anyway the Beth went fine but it just shows you how much control religion has where you know we’re giving birth. We should be looking forward to our baby being born but instead we’re making a secret pacts about who’s going to be disfellowshipped if it comes to in a way how did something just help me whether she did. Fellowship Yeah yeah but she was still willing to stick to Jehovah’s Witness rules because she is to be the best hope that she can be to get reinstated. Yeah. And I can see that I give her family who wasn’t a part who shunned her through the entire pregnancy yet the that now is the time to show up when the baby is going to be born. Right. Yeah. And now the HLC cares and now the family cares just because the babies being born yet. Otherwise she could have died on the streets and they wouldn’t care. Wow that’s just awful. They’re so intrusive and so everything with them is so conditional. Yeah. But as things progressed I mean even when I when I was leaving the Colts and especially when I left the court would involve a Sully’s a more low life with my daughter as you as you know from the forum post I make they do try and get to they try and get to your children I think. And I think the only way the only way my mother for example can have access to my daughter since I’ve left was through my ex-wife. And so she’s been trying to make contact just to get access to my daughter.

[00:59:50] But of course every time she’s been with my daughter my daughter comes back and says things which only she would know if she’d been going to meetings you know Armageddon or Jehova not like you know you aren’t bothered about me but you’re bothered about seeing my daughter right. Right. But then for them when you do have it she comes back talking about Armageddon and demons she doesn’t come back talking about parties in the park you know. Right right. And it’s funny because you know what you’re describing there is kind of the opposite of the experience of a lot of people a lot of people who leave have kids and then their parents never have anything to do with those kids never see those kids their entire life their grandkids ever. They either go one way where they completely shun those grandkids. Which actually is a protection for those grandkids even though it’s still disgusting or they want to be involved and go through any means possible. But it’s only so that they can indoctrinate them. It’s not so that they can. Like you said take them to the park or to a party. Yeah. Yeah. But first my mom would be in contact with me for about a first couple of weeks when I first left the cult. She was in contact to talk about my daughter. And she seemed to be wanted. She seemed to want to get involved.

[01:01:14] But when she got wind that I when apostates or a so-called apostate um then that’s when she stepped up the shelling and then she didn’t bother with me or my daughter for a long long time and then it only recently came to to my knowledge that she’s been secretly seeing my daughter. That’s that’s another situation entirely but I’ve Artus I’ve as you know I had to take legal action to stop the stop here from just taking my daughter when she wants to. So yeah it’s it’s it’s part of the battle I’ve always I’ve always said if my if my ex-wife left the religion which she has done since which I’ll come to later am I would I wouldn’t bother with the actual community because the only way affects me is if my daughter goes missing and I want to know what she’s been taught and want to be in. So I should be washing my hands of the whole thing now but I’m not because the one thing am I’m heavily involved to be actually to become a Latina and also my they are still affecting my life and the sense of trying to get to my daughter and I don’t think my daughter would ever become a Jehovah’s Witness. But it’s still I don’t want to expose to so the teachings that they have because I don’t want a three year old girl to be like I was a three year old No. Armageddon is or no what Satan is or demons and things you know you just never know. I mean it’s a very powerful doctrine that I try. I mean there are a lot of people you would think would never become Jehovah’s Witnesses so you have to battle it and treat it seriously.

[01:02:39] Yeah and even even like something innocent like the cadence of fear videos they’re not innocent because they’re antigay thing and donate your money to this to the Watchtower Society and think it’s so uneven. Even some of the language they use I’ve known since starting university myself I’ve noticed some of the things the Watchtower Satti does. They like to insert their own little loaded language or not. They all adjectives like for example that they’ll say Are you a young one who’s wisely considering baptism if you even move the word baptism it just says are you a young one who’s considering baptism what they say are you wisely considering baptism right by. And they also say things like do you wisely destroy apostate literature. Right so they’re inserting a word there to make you see like this is what you should do. I I’m manipulating it’s manipulation. And at the time I never noticed it until it wasn’t till actually I started studying at university that I noticed that they do this because if you read like you on Wikipedia for example you’re not allowed to do that. You can’t you can’t insert your own little agenda inside and that it has to be referenced. You can’t try to manipulate somebodies thinking with the White House idea that they do it with children. Thing is. The comic books they do on the GW website. Now it’s just it’s they really all get to the young ones. Now they have to they have to because that’s the only growth they have. Yeah. They’re not getting anybody from knocking on doors anymore. No the growth is always from within. Now how did you how did you come to leave the religion in the first place. I mean like you mentioned that your marriage was kind of rocky.

[01:04:20] Your daughter is boring your wife. Yes. Fellowship. She was wanting to go back in. And I guess she did but how did you come to actually leave the religion. Basically I wasn’t happy but I should have been happy because I’m in the happiest village in the world on a town and I wasn’t happy. And I’m I’m quite a positive person. I don’t I don’t really get. I wouldn’t say I get depressed. I have moments where I like what I get fed up inside but I’m a depressive person but there was a time when my wife was in hospital for about four months. I was looking after my daughter by myself. And at this time the only time witnesses would speak to me was like always in the ministry more she going to ministry more to answer more you should study that. Can you do a stand and talk for meal at bent bromide. I’m working full time and I’m looking after my daughter by myself and I’m visiting hospital everyday and they’re still asking me to do more and more and more. Nobody is offering to help me. And they were more interested in how many hours I want on my report slip than they were and how am I doing with my daughter how am I doing on my own. And I would start I started to look on a forum. Jehovah’s Witness Stockholm and I would read on the Net a post that I read on there. Now I don’t know if that’s true for every every extra I was witness who goes on the book I would read the post on there and I would be terrified.

[01:05:45] I was terrified because I’m an apostate website and you know I went at first. Yeah I’m like I’m but I’m physically shaking after I’d been on there. And I pray to Jehovah to forgive me for looking at it but sometimes you do things like you know someone who is an ex Elder. Well Xico obviously and I think surely not an elder. No elders don’t leave this truth to the sacred overseer. Second I really wouldn’t leave this religion. They know they know better than that the day is done then so you think about it walk away to think why would a second obviously leave. No. If it’s the truth why they leave. See it thought. And you go back and you’d look like something else and then you know and they’d mention something you go into that can’t be true. We can’t know we can’t be involved the United Nations should. I know we’re not alive because the United Nations is part of the same Titanic system. Now the next thing you know there’s a letter. You see the letter. You know that they’ve joined the United Nations of an NGO and I thought well oh well it was just just kind of a lab card. Okay that’s okay. Now that stands out.

[01:06:44] Well if you want a library card you have to swear that you agree with the aims of the United Nations which of course we did that if we got up and said we agree with the nations we could disrupt ships you know and then somebody mentioned like you know an execution a body member who’s written a book and I thought well well well an execution a body member. So someone on a given a body left. Why would they leave. Oh it must be because he’s that he’s a bitter man. He must be bitter. There was something terrible and left. That’s what it is better he’s writing lies. And so it and I still didn’t read his book it was right friends crisis of conscience. And I everyone should read this book. Anyone who is a Jehovah’s Witness should read that book and everything on there is referenced. I was surprised at the tone of his writing he was very humble man. He doesn’t have any hatred whatsoever for the witnesses at all. He is basically just pointing out where they’ve gone wrong. And I do believe he was still a Bible believing man and he wasn’t an atheist or anything. And all the things he talked about he backed it up like he had them pairs of watchtowers he had quotes he had you know court transcripts and things. After reading that book I came away and there was no way I could go back to it because it would mean it would mean that I’d have to be dishonest of myself. And that there’s a saying which says when a when an honest man is proven wrong he’s either stopped being honest or he’s tough being wrong. And after reading I thought well you know I still believe in God but I don’t believe the Watchtower Society and I know what that meant. I’m but I even now remember I was in a park with my daughter and she was collecting pinecones and she seemed so happy in the sunshine.

[01:08:22] I’m sat there and I thought to myself I don’t believe this religion. And it was like a major fight somebody died. Amber she on that someone died. And I thought it’s not true this religion isn’t true. I had been involved there for 31 years and it’s all been for nothing. And this means that my family aren’t gonna speak to me and my grandparents either speak to me or my friends and you know it’s me. So I text a text message to my non Jehovah’s Witness friends who are my gay friend I told you about earlier and I said look I’m leaving the watchtowers I’m leaving the Jehovah’s Witnesses and he replied saying Are you sure you want to do this because he knew what that meant. He knew what will happens to people who live on said well if I stay in this religion just just because my family are there or just because it’s nice or it’s it’s a nice image it’s going to affect everything else it’ll affect you know I’m denying myself a university and deny my daughter a normal life and deny myself friends and now it really would be just selling yourself to an organisation to a cult. I would like to refer to as a call which I do believe it as well. At the time I said I still believed it was the closest thing to the truth which is the stupidest thing I’ve ever said of my life. I’m alone there. I think it’s the closest thing there is but I couldn’t I couldn’t tell my wife this for one thing she was in hospital.

[01:09:40] I’m sure she doesn’t need that right now so I kind of went along with it but I stopped going at the ministry for about a year. It had gone the mystery at all for a year and I was classed as inactive but I was still going to the meetings. I’m still answering OK. But I basically I land very quickly. That’s as long as you just say what they want to hear they’re happy. I’ll get up on a bluff him give a talk. I don’t believe aware of what I’m saying. But they were happy. I can say what they want to hear and at fine time nobody seemed to be worried about that they are more worried about the fact that it wasn’t going in the ministry. But I would give them an excuse like um we don’t drive or you know my daughter not very well. But no one you know. Then it came to the point where my sister in law was babysitting for us and I was at work and she was babysitting and I came back and she was acting weird. She says she made a wish took out the house she didn’t want to speak to me or anything strange because I was kind of my mama mama wife for close to matter to her brother and her white brother’s wife and holidays and things I thought strange kind of push out and stuff and then the next day I got a phone call and my my my nickname on the Jehovah’s Witness forum my people known as the pale emperor and an M and an elder called me and he says does the name Pale Emperor mean anything to you. I am been tired.

[01:11:03] I swore Mahad author Ahmad. None of this means. And I said I. I pretended a face. While the pale emperors AM is an album by Mala Manson I don’t think he’d know what that was and he said to me and he said. We’ve seen what you’ve written on those Web sites and we’re disgusted now. I’d written on the website at this point was that my first post was that you know I’m a fan I can go crazy in this religion and I’m so stressed out that I did that. That was all it was. I hadn’t Dyster religion as such I was just basically poor my heart out. And that was bad enough. The fact I’d visited and a Jehovah’s Witness forum or travellers form and posted my feelings about how I’m feeling with the religion that it’s not paire fact it’s not wonderful I’m so I feel so I’m going crazy. I don’t know what to do. And the acros witnesses bless Blessum but they’re very supportive. I got more support and one day of people I’d never met than I have had in 31 years and the as the witnesses they all gave me different. Some of them just said you know what I’m gonna tell you what to do but you know we’re thinking of you and you know just take it slow. Well there’s no one to. Nobody told me to leave. Nobody told me that there’s religion’s rubbish in this religion’s evil. No one said that. They just said you know take it easy try and you know look after yourself Look after your family and they’re very supportive.

[01:12:21] So this whole thing about apostates being you know drawn people after themselves is rubbish. I mean even myself now I’m I’m I’m a so-called apostate. I don’t care if people follow me. I don’t really care. I just want people to know the facts and then make up their mind about what what to do with it you know. Because if you if you know if you know the truth about this organization and still decide to be a part of it that’s fine. I don’t have a problem at all. The problem is when you get people who say well you own it you’re only an apostate because you know it’s the truth but you’re fighting against it. And that’s a flaw waiting to hear because because we know who killed we don’t work. If it was true I would be in it if it was true. I would be part of it but there’s only so many times you can forgive. Like a failed prophecy or a fair prediction or a new light on a far as I’m concerned every time they bring out new light it’s a new religion. I wasn’t baptized into the religion of what they’re teaching now. I wasn’t baptized into the. I wasn’t baptized. I wasn’t baptized believing on Obama generation. I would never have the truth. What happened so and then I was called the eldest son of pestered me by phone by e-mail by text. Now at this point I thought well you know it’s probably good time to leave so I ran a disused disassociation association letter and mailed it to the congregation. Persad Noble was I’d never see a coordinator.

[01:13:48] And I started getting more and more knocks on my door and stuff I just didn’t answer the door. I want to be left alone but they don’t leave you alone. They don’t let you leave. They don’t believe. And it became like in the end a thought well I’ll just meet with them to get them to go away. I met with one elder who seemed to be OK. I thought he was OK. I thought he’s a friend of mine. I met with him in a pub just just him on Husserl and he said to me that you know the organization has made mistakes but where the honest religion because we admit our mistakes which of course is true now they never admit anything. Yeah and he said of course he said look at the Catholic Church or their paedophile problem which I thought was I am crazy. Witness the Watchtower study has a huge paedophile problem as you and I know anybody listen and just ask Google the Australian wool commission and read all about that. And then he said well disassociate is a cowardly thing to do because it means that you know you’re not giving the elders their chance to turn to lovingly shepherd you or something like that which is complete rubbish. So that’s I said yeah so so he said to me look why did you come to the Kingdom Hall tomorrow with me and all that and just two elders just two elders and ten open to tell us your concerns and will sit with you and we’ll go through it and if you still want to disassociate then that’s fine.

[01:15:05] So I thought out I stupidly said Yes I’ll tell you I I know a lot of things I want to get off my chest. You try to Adam. Yeah with theU.N. with theU.N. connection with Charles Taylor Rossell selling medical wheat with you know lots of things that did all over the food with as you know in connection with Hitler. He tried to eat tried to curry favor with Hitler before the war but it backfired and then he became like an antique German Jehovah’s Witness suffering unnecessarily because of the Fed’s mismanagement. So that wants to be more out and then stand up. There’s roughly three elders there not two liturgist judicial committee they tricked me to tell you just a committee. Now I should have just walked out. But that I thought was about I’m here I’ve already disassociated a lot I want to say I sat there and for the first hour was just them trying to get me to admit that I believe the Bible and I believe that Jehovah’s God’s name and eventually ice. I said to them yes even though I didn’t really believe the by all the Bible I believe in God. I did know who God was. That’s when I was at this point. And I said I don’t know whether God is male or female or God as you know at the Trinity. I don’t know whether God is like you know a pantheon of gods I don’t know and they’re scoffing at this idea. I’m like look literally I have no idea. I don’t know what I believe anymore. And so I said yes I believe the Bible.

[01:16:26] I’ve said that and they said fine them we can get on with this with this with this meeting. And basically the next two hours was then they told my disassociated letter in front of me and they said well you know your actions are showing that you’re not humble and I’m not following you know the direction that Jesus has chosen because of course there’s no evidence that Jesus has chosen this. And they were saying you know you want to get ahead of Jehovah’s challe. Yes. And if you don’t accept the covenant if you don’t accept the governing body then that means that you know in the first century would you accept the Apostles. And I’m thinking Well well I would because I would see them do miracles with my Arvidson. What I would. And I know. And they said what the apostles got it wrong sometimes and I know but you know nobody. They didn’t they didn’t change their religion. When I said well the apostles didn’t disfellowshipped people who as you disagreed with the you know you have you have you know Paul the Apostle and Matthew disagreed on things they didn’t shoot each other one that no one didn’t get disfellowshipped yet they just kind of say yeah we disagree on some things but you know what else. And there was a scripture that I remember I think a comma which scripture at Imber Paul apostle Paul said you know some follow up Polis some follow me some follow somebody else but we all follow Christ like. So what that tells me personally I said to the elders is even back then there were different branches of Christianity popping up but it did matter because it all leads back to Jesus.

[01:17:48] That’s what the Bosnians and that’s what he was saying. Some follow Polis in his teaching of whether some follow me. So I’m saying well you know let’s say I become a born again Christian for example if I did. As far as I’m concerned I’m still in the teaching of Christ. That’s what they believe. So that’s not really an apostasy it’s just a difference of opinion. But they were like adamant that no no no it has to be the Watchtower Society. Now I bought along gum em reprints of Watchtower literature from the first era of similar things he said which which directly contradicts things they say now. And of course that’s considered to be old right. And because out of half the thing that’s apostasy and I think that’s the thing here I have their own publications from the era and even some of it even some as up to the 80s 1980s like you know. JEREMY SCHAAP never pass away that one. MARTIN four. And they said that that is now apostasy because it contradicts what we now teach book. But by saying in the book The Faithful and Discreet Slave printed this what they written. Well the Fed apparently was Jehovah’s mouthpiece. You know how kind of scary. Yeah. So so so if other thought was wrong about this could he be wrong about you know anything else. Could they go wrong about blood transfusions. Could they be wrong about you know Christmas and better. I mean I read somewhere a comma would have read it that would ban birthdays because he personally didn’t go into birthday party so he banned the about.

[01:19:15] Right. Sounds about right. I’m not sure where that’s true but it wouldn’t surprise me at all. No no. And I know the Fed also banned tipping your hats to women. He banned shaking hands. He banned singing Kingdom songs and they only the they came back in nor took over. Yeah. You couldn’t sing Kingdom songs. I didn’t hold out. Yeah that’s the same announcement Monday about birthdays. They also banned singing hymns like that. It was just you couldn’t. Those are tipping a hat to women or standing up when they enter a room is because it’s showing them what is it is showing too much respect to women. It’s like you should be shown respect to guard and the man as the head of the House and the women should be your subjection to you. He’s basically in his Etep in their caps men. Yeah. These are things that you know the ridiculous. This is the way they treat it. At It. It takes the whole it takes the love out of the whole thing that reading the Bible should be a joy. It should be something you enjoy. Do you go there to feel better. You know you had a bad day. You’re worried about something. You read the Bible. You feel better. Right. But you try to do that with Watchtower literature. You don’t feel that way. You feel worse and you feel like gladiatorial paradise. They claim it is. No it’s not.

[01:20:30] And it got to the point it got to the point where I literally thought even if even if this is the truth I don’t want to live in the new system because it would mean I’ve got I’ve got Tony Morris up in heaven the ruling the. It’s almost like a you know I’ve got to start I’ve still got to study the magazines are still going to preach to the people to be resurrected and then even if you do all the Jehovah is going to test you again. Yeah you’re thinking how and where are they going to go through all that again which means you know your relative who you love very much could then die because you didn’t pass the final test. But it’s ok because you’re over will erase your memory of a person. So I thought to myself well why bother. Why don’t I just enjoy my life now. I didn’t die at the end of it anyway so it just finished for apostasy on and. I was the subject of my wife left me. Even though I’ve been very supportive of a third illnesses and things she left me a lot of pressure from a father who is an elder UNDAN. And she left and she moved into her parents house and I kind of got with my life then for the for the first couple of months I went through a period of I didn’t know who I was. Did no one I believed didn’t know what my likes and dislikes were. I really did not know who I was. And I think this is a common thing. We believe a cult called up and told him how to think or what to think and told them what the world view is.

[01:21:53] I really didn’t know who I was so I kind of just threw myself into studying everything I study religion philosophy. I studied art history everything and anything that I didn’t understand I would look it up on multiple little different sources. I wouldn’t just look at one like the Watchtower Society would give you one side of an argument. I looked up counter arguments I looked at all of the history of why they would say that and I came to the conclusion that the Bible is a collection of books that agree with each other but they only agree with each other because they remove the ones that don’t agree with them. You know. Yeah I think was comes off nicely I think where they based the Catholic church got together and argued over which books should be and which shouldn’t be. I’ve read books that were removed. I have a book a home here. It’s like damn i didn’t know there was an apocalypse of Peter so Peter wrote a book or the apocalypse as well which contradicts John’s revelation. Oh I know that. Yeah I didn’t even notice myself until last week. There’s books and the Gospel of Thomas as gospel and that book is insane. Yeah there’s even a gospel of Judas. There is so many books now. I’m more than confident that most of the book to the Bible probably where I’ve written by the people I named after them and even if they where they would have been changed over the years for political reasons and things. And it’s.

[01:23:14] And it also doesn’t make sense that you’d have like what you would expect a book written by God or inspired by God would have information well above it’s time like you would be talking about physics and you certainly would mention Australia or North America but doesn’t mention names places doesn’t mention Scandinavia doesn’t mention Russia or anything like that it just mentions the Middle East. You know it never mentions that always got me well never mentions in all the rules about not committing adultery or men lying with men or it even mentions beach ideality but it never ever talks about not sexually abusing children. Yes like what are the most vulnerable among us. No they’re nowhere in there does it say. And you would think that the Nishant guide would be able to see that you know what this might be a problem. And I should address this directly like I do Beath reality never ever mentioned and that that was something that I always got to me. How was that overlooked. Yeah I’m a big one for me is slavery. Yeah nowhere nowhere in the Bible where you find a scripture that says slavery is bad. In fact you found the opposite you’ll find rules to say how to treat your slaves right. And even as even if you want to optional. Oh yes the old testament No no no. It’s meant in the New Testament too. Paul says you know slaves attend to your masters and you know your master should treat your slaves kindly and this is something that that that they say like oh well you see it is different being a slave if you want to Jehovah’s people because slaves were looked after.

[01:25:00] Well you read you read some of the books of Moses how you treat it like you could be a slave. You could be a slave with a stick. And if he doesn’t die the next day nothing happens. You don’t get punished as long as he doesn’t die. He can die a week later. What if he doesn’t have the next day that you know you’re okay and things like and you know you can. You can have sex with your women slaves and things and or under that do they say where some of that some some slaves voluntarily stayed with their masters and there was a thing where they nail easier to the door post like I looked into that I looked into that and I even asked a rabbi about this and you think about this let’s say for example you your wife and your children are all slaves to the same man. The man says to you you can my slave for seven years and will set you free if you want to keep keeping your wife and children what are you going to do. I know what I’d do Oh I’ll stay a slave please. I can have a wife. So of course you’re going to stay a slave Ana has nothing to do with being treated kindly could not be your slave even if you treat a kindly you must. And apparently God is fine with this you know. And of course you know that’s one way that’s how they treat you know you’re like slaves if you were if you were unfortunate enough to be a person captured in war or boy you’re in for a tough time you know because sometimes they would just kill everybody except for the young girls.

[01:26:23] Oh yeah they have to have somebody to rape. Yes. Of course on those things like I can’t remember the scripture that Mahad but you can look it up later Baer says you know when you go into battle and stuff to split open the pregnant bellies and all that smashed her head against the rocks baby’s heads. I think what’s in it and you see this god is pro-life. You’re going to the abortion but that’s OK. And you know this is nothing like abortion. You know I have my own beliefs on abortion but that’s something else. And on the subject entirely if you want to argue that God is against abortion if it’s if you’re saying you’re thinking abortion because of God. God kill David’s baby directly now. Now the scriptures where they go Well you know the soldiers go into battle probably shouldn’t have done that but you know they didn’t go out and say that they should do. God said that what would happen. And book out with no god kill day with baby he get. He used to miscarriage you know. So this as far as I’m concerned the God of the old testament as a monster. You want to get when you get to things like Jesus and stuff I think Jesus is more than likely probably just why is these a Jewish apostate doesn’t he. You’re looking he comes along with his own teachings. But again he wasn’t all that because a lot of things he said didn’t happen. You know I used fail prophecies which LATELINE MAY have to say oh well he meant this and he meant that. I don’t think he did.

[01:27:46] I think he’s a false prophet but um again that’s something else. Yeah. So basically what you’re saying is that you’re not going to go back to the truth anymore are you. No no I’m I’m I’m pretty much Bolle I’m an atheist now I read I read a lot of different religions. I stood I heavily studied Buddhism and Hinduism heavily because it was so fascinating to me. And I don’t agree with those religions but as parts of different religions that I think are useful. So there’s parts of Buddhism and Hinduism. Not that I don’t believe them to be true but there’s the seven ways of looking at the world and ways of looking at things which I think are useful. I read the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins and man that was a very good book that after I thought well I’ve got no I’ve no I have no right believing in and superstitious things I’ve no right believing in any god. And if God exists then he’s to blame for me not believing in it because it could be any reason to. So that was what really sealed it for me unless I had you know somebody appeared in front of me in front of my eyes and say they are God and give me proof. I will never become a just person. So yes when I left I started studying all kind of things I studied hypnotism and I actually am a qualified hypnotist. Now I can do all that. I’m not going to back me. You’re not going to make me bark like a dog.

[01:29:13] Then at the end of the Ottawa if I could do it over the telephone it could. No no. And I was nothing. The whole hypnosis thing I went to that when I went when I was studying it and I went to the classes and the hypnotist trainer said you know what are some of the misconceptions about hypnotism. So I put my hand up I said Look out. I was in a religion which said if you went in a trance a demon in your head and they were all like what a demon a pop in your head. Why would they say that I go. And like somebody said you know if you can look at the Bible and say maybe Jesus was doing that. You look at the myth that a mentalists an artists to magicians and you are famous who do things that Jesus did you don’t mean like your Pantelis example. I’ve seen Talla walk on water. It’s a trick. Yeah but he’s done it right. I don’t know how I don’t know how I did it. I’ve seen faith healers make somebody they thought they were like they had you know the demon inside them and that the faith healer does something and suddenly they don’t have a demon inside them and then this is explained by this there’s a popular magician in England called Devon Brown he’s a he’s a very good hypnotist and he does things like that. He copies everything Jesus that he can do. He can make.

[01:30:27] He even did one thing where he converted people he converted atheists to Christianity with a touch because he’s a very good him artist and something in the way he speaks he said something can touch them and they suddenly believe in God. And then afterwards he took away again but it just shows you how the human mind we don’t understand how it works but it can be manipulated you know definitely impressionable creatures. Yeah. So you know you’re learning these new things. You know since you’ve left is there is there anything that you’ve learned since you left that’s really impacted your life for the better. Is there anything that you know you don’t know how long have you been out now. I’m about two years now with this matter. Yeah that’s right. About fan timeline as I was. Is there anything that you’ve learned that really you know kind of helped you. I mean other than helping you get away from this cult. Is there anything that just helped you in your life for the better in a general sense. I would say my whole worldview now is to live and let live. Yeah people people have their own ideas on beliefs and just let them believe it unless it’s going to harm someone. That’s that’s something else but I really don’t really care what sort believes as long as they’re good people and that they treat people with respect. And it’s also may a massive thing that happens well as Miss feminism. I have a strong belief that women and men are equal and women. I met some women who are fantastic well educated OK. Oxford graduates who have very good teachers I’d say to them Well you know if you’re a Jehovah’s Witness they wouldn’t let you teach because you’re a woman which is ludicrous you know.

[01:32:02] So it’s like there was there was like really opened my eyes to the real world. So live after live let live attitude. I look at women in a different way now. There’s some really intelligent women there some people outsource it makes sense to get involved politically too. You have to be political in this day and age you have to be. It’s all very well saying I don’t vote because that would mean I’m voting. I’m maybe maybe this politician would bring in a policy of aggrieved later on but that’s that’s something else. But you have to be politically aware today because if you if you look at for example like World War Two with the Nazis invading left right and center it used to just sit there and let it happen. And you can’t you have to be involved you have to stand up and fight stuff like that. But that’s another thing I learned since Le’Veon as um you know sometimes people can’t be convinced because they don’t want to be convinced. When I speak to there’s a Web site called corer dot com where he’ll ask questions and you answer them I’m on the other way. I get like Jehovah’s Witnesses answer questions on there which you can tell they don’t know the whole truth. And sometimes you’ll comment on it and give them the truth and they don’t want to know. And you know you can you can apply all you want to keep going conversation but sometimes people don’t want to be a duck.

[01:33:19] They don’t want to be convinced sometimes they’re happy in their little religion and you know them if they feel safe in it and they don’t want to be moved from it and so you have to respect that too sometimes. It’s unfortunate but. Yeah. Yeah but I get back to that live and let live. Yes. Is there is there any way that your past life is still impacting you. Yeah I mean when I think about it everyday you know I think about this religion everyday and I wish I didn’t. I really wish it had kept up. It affects me everyday. Even when you read things in books about like controlling people like maybe you mean like an abusivee.V. to me like a newspaper article about an abusive abusive husband who beat his wife up and yet he sees similarities to religion. You’re like Oh he wouldn’t let his wife mix with anyone outside his family who wouldn’t let his wife read any magazines about this subject. Like yeah that’s exactly the same thing. Or you’ll read about like I mentioned earlier North Korea and North Korea. They have one news station one newspaper one leader who tells them what the truth is and that’s the truth. And they’re not allowed to question it because they be punished. So you noticed things around you and you and you can’t believe you were ever fooled by it. You can’t believe you ever involved and sometimes you feel ashamed that you’re involved it because you know some of the beliefs you have.

[01:34:40] It affects me mainly now because of my daughter because the witnesses are still trying to somehow influence that when it comes to because she sees them even now randomly Jehovah doesn’t like Christmas or Jehovah doesn’t like birthdays randomly should say she don’t know what your Hoeber is or who she says it is a set of sentences. But then I counter that straight away to say that’s OK he’s not real. And that’s it. Right. Oh she’ll say like Jehovah doesn’t like birthdays. That’s why I have to say to her what do you like birthdays. And she says yes. And I go so do I. And I say well that’s OK. I hope is not real. I’m at a book. But apart from that it only affects me because I know to say everywhere I go yeah. And you see these stupid Carter trying to get out your mind. See those cards. I’m lucky. National live somewhere where there aren’t many cards. Because now my heart would buy I would have a hard time not kicking him over every time I go on. You know the worst thing is lately they’ve had they been featuring the secret to family happiness. Yeah. What are you talking about. Family after family of a legend that has a truckload of destroying families and Eva Xiaobo. As I’ve met the life the royal family has been destroyed in some way. And this is the village Anna says Oh the secret to family happiness. The secret to finding happiness is all I’m concerned is don’t shoot each other. Yeah. Communicate. Yeah that’s a pretty good rule. Yeah. Yeah I mean did Kim anything when it comes to family. And I think if you have a disagreement communication you know if you and I had a disagreement we fell out. Right. I don’t think the communication.

[01:36:20] All you gotta do is talk to. Yeah or in the end. Live and let live. You don’t Savelyev agree on everything that’s okay. Exactly. I was going to ask you so you know you mentioned the family thing. So then if you could say anything to your family and friends that still shun you. There’s something that you could say to them what would you say. As I say to my family I would say I’m still the same person I was before except I’m just happier. I would say I would say I haven’t. I have no trouble with what you want to believe. I have I have no issue with you having a religion. I love you no matter what religion you are. It doesn’t matter to me. There’s no reason in the world I would have to shun you. There’s no reason no one could tell me to. No. Me too. Nobody could make me to have somebody dead. I would just tell them to something off. I would have to go. Why would I. And that is love. You know what. When you only see how weak is your love. If you only love somebody who agrees with you and is essentially a carbon copy or mirrors you in every way not love that’s control at best. I think I look I look at my and my little girl. I mean I mean I put it I put it to bed just before I ran I thought to myself if someone said to me I can’t give you eternal life in a perfect world. Right.

[01:37:50] As long as you show me this little girl forever. And in this perfect world she won’t be that. Well I would I would rather have I would rather have 50 more years of my life with hair and not be resurrected ever. I would rather have them in an imperfect world. I would want to live an imperfect world with my daughter and accept the fact that I will die one day but that would be a lot better I’ll be immeasurably happier today than living in a perfect world without a shadow. But what if Mark what if in the new system just like Joe lost his kids and was then given another set of kids later. What if that was OK. God killed the first you know allowed the first that to be killed but gave him another set a replacement set. So but what if you could abandon your daughter now and you would be given a random other children in this new perfect world so that you could forget all about her. I would hate that got it right. I get that messed up. Yeah. That the best they can come up with are even in jobs is that the best they could come up with is. Well I mean yeah God pretty much killed his kids but he gave them more kids later. You know it’s just it’s so horrifying. Yes. And you think let us take for example of jokes kids lie. I mean I’m a correctly I think a roof fell in on them. That’s not a nice death. That’s a bit terrifying. So they were terrified before they died. You had to.

[01:39:20] They had to go through terror for a while. Yeah. So talk to God to prove that God loves them. It’s got that insecure apparently could do something else you know couldn’t they wager something else. Why did it have to be that. Yeah. If he’s all powerful god you would think he could come up with a better wager. Well if it’s not powerful god there’s a lot more things he to. Yeah. If you think somebody ate some of his fruit. You know I mean that’s pretty much what it is. Let’s just really just does this kiss him on that tragic thing. Yeah. Right. Well so you’ve got is this new life now you’re free you’ve got your adorable little daughter. What are your dreams for this new life of yours. What are you hoping to do. Where you want to take it. But I’m I’m in university now part time I’m studying to be a therapist counselor for X court victims off which is which is a positive thing which is something I can relate to more that more so than the other students camp because I’ve actually been at a cult. So is that. And of course as a Ghazi’s hypnosis goes I’m hoping to include hypnotherapy with that. So there’s that side of it. Popham that I like my hobbies now I like photography and stuff and I through that I know a lot of models now which is cool. So I thought your home was written as I didn’t know many beautiful people. But like now I have a lot of beautiful friends now. So it’s. My girlfriends.

[01:40:52] I’m at Shindell I’ve been going out with them now since September it’s about five five or six months now things are going good. You know I mean I’ve had other girlfriends before. They didn’t work out too well. There’s always something I’ve got the label but this you know we have a lot of common religion doesn’t come into it. She she’s from a Catholic background but she’s not involved. She’s got the little girl herself. So religion is not the reason we’re together. We were together because we have the same likes and dislikes and we have the same you know ideas and you know what we disagree on many things too but that’s okay. Yeah yeah. You know it I mean her way of raising kids is different from mine but I don’t really I don’t want to get involved outside it that she does with her child way. But it’s so refreshing that you know you had somebody who you cause it. I know I know I know what she feels about me and I know what I feel about her and I know that the reason she’s with me is not because I knock on doors not because I give talks a lot because her dad is an elder. You know what. It’s there that I’m looking forward to a future where that goes much longer. And yeah just I’m just hoping to remain active in the GW community. I don’t consider myself an activist as such it’s Maura. I like that. You know I see what’s going on. I comment on it and make I make the occasional YouTube video when I have something to say.

[01:42:10] But that’s again I’m not trying to be John Setas interest. Yeah he’s got that locked down he’s got locked down. I mean I like the stuff he does. Yeah I do. So he does and I owe a lot to this man. I owe a lot to his work and particularly the be fetched Ofcom and Jehovah’s Witnesses tocome. Without without those websites Mannagh be lost. Yeah I agree. I agree. So what about your daughter. You have hopes for her for the future. You know what my only hope for her is that she’s happy. That’s all I actually say. Yeah I always say when might my ex-wife by the way has left the left the whole business as three weeks ago. And wouldn’t you know since she left her depression left as a man that yeah she did she still has OCD because that’s a clinical thing but it’s less than it was. So. So she’s not raising my daughter in as a witness either. So my daughter will have a normal upbringing. Well relatively normal. And I use the joke. But she being quite serious as well. I used that joke when she was going to the Kingdom Hall with a mom might say well you know I hope she’s older she’s a lesbian because that way the wet’s is one. So which is true. Yeah would never get that they were alone. But again like even if she if it if my daughter grew up to be sexual that really wouldn’t make a difference to me. And it’s so refreshing to be able to admit that yeah.

[01:43:35] You know that clearly doesn’t make a difference. As long as she’s happy as long as she’s safe AMCo that’s what you’re saying is that you hope your daughter grows up to be happy and you’ll love her whatever she does. Yeah that’s great that you know why it’s funny or sad that that would be a strange thing to say. Yeah and Jehovah’s Witnesses are none of our parents would have ever said that. No I know what it’s like even though I’m an atheist this doesn’t mean I don’t talk about religion at home anyway. So she doesn’t. She doesn’t have any religious instruction at all yet and is only 3 able. She grows up and stuff. I’m not going to talk about God and I’m not even going to tell her why there isn’t a god. The letter comes the conclusion not only on and if she did it if she decides to become a Jew or a Muslim or a Catholic a slut as long as she is Comstock inclusion on her own and she knows the ins and outs of it that’s fine. Well honestly I hope you become a Jehovah’s Witness of course. But yeah. But then of course if she got involved in that I would obviously tell which websites to read up on first so you know I don’t think she actually I don’t think that will never be around yielder. Yeah. So as long as she’s happy she’s healthy and she’s safe it’s all good and I believe and I don’t know if you want to say a name on here or not but you can give a shout out to your brother too who recently left.

[01:44:53] Yeah yeah my brother Daniel he left. He left the cult. He left about 3 months ago. Yeah but he didn’t. He didn’t do what I where he didn’t get active in the actual committee he does not even care. He just got on with life. He was going through a horrible time on. Was. He was. He tried to kill himself actually. But he was trying to he was trying to leave the Jehovah’s Witnesses. He stopped going to the meetings. He stopped going on the doors. He was getting hounded by elders. You know knock on his door people telling them you know you get your act together and come back to the truth and all this and he just wanted to. He just want to live as life as do his own thing and he actually tried to kill himself into the hospital. And after that he just wasn’t up. He was depressed for a while then you want to see him now. I mean I don’t I hardly see it now because he’s so active. He’s you have all of all things he’s interested in Chinese and he’s learning he’s taken Mandarin lessons. He’s actors in the Chinatown district of Liverpool just going out meeting people talking to people is like eating on dates with Chinese women. It’s like a different person a beautiful man. It’s amazing. I like that so often. Yeah he’s made about two postings on the forum you know. Actually it shows just a couple. But apart from that he’s not really interested in getting involved. He’s just like enjoying his life.

[01:46:13] So he’s got it just that he’s got his you know he plays mysterious instruments I say. I mean I saw I was in his house a few days ago and I said so as far as our I’m go said anything to you and now we said sometimes they try to ring me but don’t ask me phone so he isn’t he showing them he’s not there they’re trying to get in touch with him. But he doesn’t care because he’s like or them because I know because with the background that he had with them he needed to yes go on with his life. And yes he needs to be happy. And now you can tell them his iPod. Podcast’s famous. Yes I just had you know you know what Michael I don’t even he. He did not disfellowshipped that I know of. I think is he he disassociated. But then I think they they didn’t accept the letter or something involved where they wouldn’t accept the letter because they thought he wasn’t thinking clearly right. So when I say to him so are you just associated with this fellowship he says I’ve no idea how he does. All he knows if he’s free. It’s FREE AND HE’S DATING Chinese women and he’s speaking Chinese and he’s doing Chinese cooking. He’s like I don’t know what’s going on man he’s he’s happy so you know again that’s all you can wish for anybody right that’s left that’s it.

[01:47:29] Um I think he’s finding his feet you know he’s he’s just he’s doing what I did he’s looking to so many different subjects they’re finally finding out who he is what he likes and apparently he like Chinese women so that’s what whatever make a man have exactly exactly as you’re not hurting anybody oh no man I appreciate it. I think that that that was a really good interview. Is there anything that you would like to say that you know maybe I didn’t get to ask or get the cover. The only thing I would say is um if anyone I mean I don’t have any I don’t want to listen to this. If you do think you have the truth. I’m not I’m not trying to be provocative. If you think you have the truth then by all means look at different sides of the argument or someone says Oh I know something but Jehovah’s Witnesses that you don’t know well listen to what they have to say. If it’s a lie you’ll know it’s a lie. If it’s true that they should they should buckle up with evidence. If they don’t back up what evidence then I carry don’t listen to it but then I think 99 percent that actually WS cite their sources and so I do. I am not interested in and lies about the Watchtower Society. I’m not sure that the model. I don’t I don’t I don’t want people to leave because they’ve been lied to. But the most outstanding. So you’ll find a lot of extras Dedo abuse will always tell you where they got the information from. So if you have the truth. Make it your duty to make sure it is the truth. The Bible says you should test it to see if you are on the truth. Make sure azo are important things. That’s it. That’s it.

[01:48:59] So if someone says oh the Jehovah’s Witnesses are wrong about no one hundred forty four thousand well see why X Y. Why have they said that by all means try and convince them the opposite. Nolt. Listen to what they have to say. Surely if they’re saying that they’re wrong. You have blood on your hands I don’t need them again you should teach them. And personally I mean I know of all the extra doobies I’ve met. I don’t know any who hate Jehovah’s Witnesses as people. I don’t know any. I mean I I wouldn’t say hate by habit. I have a strong problem with the Watchtower Society and body I don’t hate Jehovah’s Witnesses. Why would I hate those ministers being deluded or deluded because they’ve been being fooled into being hurt you’ll stick them. They’re called victims and I was one of them. Yeah I did. I used to be afraid of apostacy afraid of apostates but you know if something is true you have nothing to fear. Absolutely nothing to fear. So again that new light that comes out well it’s only new light because somebody in Bethel is out there researching more. Which. Why can’t you do that. Why can’t you. If you’re given a if they’re given a body aren’t and spied on fallible. Neither you or I. So why is that opinion not worth more than yours. Right. So that’s all I had to say about that. But yeah I enjoyed this interview to make it’s been good.

[01:50:23] I want to thank Mark for making himself so available that you know he can come on here and tell his story even with the time difference and stayed out late you know telling this story to me as we got on the call. I want to thank Mark for the activism that he does making videos here and there I’ll put a link to his YouTube channel and the resources on the Web site. Mark has also begun Quora. Q You are a fan of some of you who may not know that’s a site where the general public can go and ask questions about things and get answers from experts on various subjects and you know Mark is a great fit there. He likes to get on there and help people understand the truth about the truth as we call it as Jehovah’s Witnesses are actually Jehovah’s Witnesses. If you’d like to continue the conversation you can go to the link in the description for this episode for my site. There you can leave comments for every person that’s interviewed. They’ll see the comments. They can reply you can spark a conversation with them. For some reason the links don’t show up in your podcast that you can go to shun podcasts dot com and on the episodes page you’ll see each one. You also have links for songs that each person chose to represent their journey resources that they mention ways to support the show. Not really just anything you might want or need. Oh and if you visit the site to leave them a comment or check out the resources that he mentioned. I thought I might be fine I’ll even include my favorite verse from the Book of Thomas. I think you’ll like it. It’s amazing.

[01:52:04] If you’d like to learn more about my story and the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses you can listen to my podcast series called ThisJ.W. life or find out more at thisjwlife.com if you’d like to support the podcast. You can do so in a few ways. First I love seeing comments and conversations on the show on podcast dot com website because it supports those that are being vulnerable and open and telling their stories. Second I love seeing five star reviews pop up on iTunes with great comments. It’s encouraging to see and it also helps lend credibility to what we’re doing here so that others might be able to find the show and get help. And finally there is no charge for the show. But if you’d like to make a voluntary contribution to the worldwide work that actually helps somebody and my data friends are going to get why I said it that way you can support the show financially by going to patreon.com/shunned on his 80 hour Eoin and for as little as a dollar a month you can help support the show. All musical support for the show is from Poddington Bear and next month we’ve got a great interview with Fernando. He’s a really fascinating story about being gay in the organization. And you know what that was like how he felt knowing that he was condemned by his very nature inside the cult. So joining us again in June and learn more about him. His journey out of the cult and how his life has gone after losing so much.

[01:53:39] So as always love others do no harm and go be happy.