Episode Four – Mike is shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses

Mike Is Shunned By Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:14] Welcome to shunned the monthly podcast where we expose the religions that use shunning as a method to coerce and control. These are real stories as told by the person that live them telling these stories takes courage and the strength to be vulnerable. After this week’s episode I encourage you to go to shunnedpodcast.com and leave a message for the person that told their story by commenting on their episode. I’ve told mine and it means a lot to hear from people that can relate. Each person will be able to read and respond to your messages of encouragement. Now let’s listen to this month’s real life story of being shown a mike twice over. And I was born and raised Joe’s with us. I’m actually not not not really Shunda because I’m inactive like I wasn’t disfellowshipped and I’ve never dissociated or anything but anyway I was born and raised in that so I never saw the outside world that much kid. My parents were actually both in the Navy and my mom had joined when she was pretty young I think but I think maybe when she left to finish high school so must be been 18 because from the way I was told the story which I’ve only been told the story by a handful of times but she had joined the Navy and I think same thing with my dad pretty much so my mom is like this white girl from like suburban Illinois or suburban Chicago Illinois. My dad is from San Antonio Texas.

[00:01:53] I grew up in the projects having eight brothers and sisters so very different worlds and then they they both join the Navy and our members and my dad told me that he would always check out my mom and that actually like. Like he would go out on a double date with these two other people and I think they end up being married too. And then we’ll actually find the time my dad was dating another girl and then my mom was being another guy. And then they would double date and they end up being together. I actually kind of crisscrossed it so they both kind of trailed off or whatever then my mom got married. My dad like I think early mid 80s they were living and living in Hawaii for I think maybe 3 or 4 years because they were stationed in Pearl Harbor and then my mom was just checking my mail one day and a Jehovah’s Witness just walked up on her and then gave her Be Live Forever book. I think it was and from the way that my mom told me that she read the whole thing in one night and she would look after that and I think I actually remember listening to an episode of years or something else and then that was a common experience that they would get a book and then they would they would read in one night or in a very short period of time and then fucking hooked. Hey hate so so then my mom started studying and my dad wasn’t completely sold on it. But I think after a while he kind of came around to it because part of that they were looking for a church anyway but they had gone to like just typical run of the mill Christian churches.

[00:03:16] And I think they saw that that other Christian churches don’t take it super seriously. But I went to a Jehovah’s Witness like you’re taking it superset it’s like like you aren’t playing around it like it isn’t like the whole week you’re sitting and doing whatever you want and then suddenly you come in say 20 Hail Marys like it’s not. It’s not that cut and dry. So I think that was what my parents on it and then they were like OK this seems like they’re actually playing by the book and then they start studying and they got baptized mid 80s late 80s moved back to Illinois where I am right now to the suburbs again where my mom is from. And then I was born and raised over here so I never I never knew anything outside of it much really. So I don’t remember thinking much of it as a kid because it just because that was the way I was raised like it doesn’t hit me. I remember when people would be like like oh I feel so bad for you because you know you never celebrate Christmas or your birthday blah blah whatever but to me that was just life. And I mean even still to this day like I’ve been out for about eight years now but still to this day I don’t celebrate my birthday. It’s weird for me to even celebrate other people’s birthdays like around the holiday time since it’s pretty much just me and my parents like in this area and my whole family is in Texas. I still will celebrate holidays unless I have a girlfriend and then I celebrate with her family. But like I still don’t celebrate any of these things.

[00:04:41] And it’s not because of any kind of superstition or because of the religion but I’m just not used to it especially birthdays like birthdays to me are still weird because I give so much attention on yourself and you I’m just not used to that because I mean I was never introduced to them as a kid. And I remember knowing that I was different because I was pretty obvious even though my kindergartner was because I’m out like I was saying the pledge during a thing in kindergarten. I think the only kid my class and I mean maybe one of like two or three kids in my entire school. So I mean it was like it wasn’t many of us and seem like we would make a big scene once we did that. So like like I knew I was different but I didn’t really I guess I believed it because I was that age and I just didn’t know what to think. Even here my parents are like pushing it on me every single day. Yeah I like it. Like it didn’t mean much to me but it was just a normal part of life growing up. I think I viewed the world exactly how they told me to and it was just everyone else was wrong. And I still kind of have that like inherent view of the world about me still. Yeah. Like I like everyone else is wrong everyone else’s centers and like like not exactly looking down on other people but just just pretty much that like the rest is wrong.

[00:06:00] And then you’re the one that has the answer your you like your group of people has the answer. Which I don’t think varies too much from other religions. But but it’s it’s just really emphasized in the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. We would like to emphasize that you have the truth. Like I’ve even use that term which is which is a funny habit to break going on because like because it goes away after I didn’t even believe a thing about anymore I still call it the truth. But it was just because of conditioning because then else calls it bear as a witness. So I think going along with that point to. I know it’s all look like all the war games they would play and then not even know and live their light like light maybe a ad at a very high level likeC.T. Russell or like Judge Rutherford or something like that had expired using that terminology and then that was what what kind of bright everyone in. But now it’s just like subconscious and everyone just says like the truth as if like they’re 100 percent sure. I’m not sure other religions do that too. But yeah that was that was kind of how I saw it. Back then it was just the truth. Yeah. So I was never afraid of outsiders because I made it apparent that I was more curious because I mean like I was always like a little like class clown like a jokester kind of kid in a school. So like I would always play around with with other kids. I mean I mean me not saying the pledge or having to leave the room for like birthdays and stuff like that like it didn’t make me different.

[00:07:30] But I don’t think that other kids really treat me that poorly as a kid. I remember leaving the room when they would read Harry Potter. Once I was like fourth or fifth grade and I would just like draw and add and then play nowadays I’m a I’m a graphic designer so I guess I kind of built towards that. And I was always doodling in my Watchtower or whatever or just fly on the Ivailo like these you no paper that was taking notes on. So my parents were like relatively lenient lay low. They weren’t really super hard nosed about it like I had some friends growing up that did. I had one friend who his parents thought everything was demonized. They wouldn’t buy stuff from garage sales because they thought that like they would buy an old like a pepper grinder that had Baphomet in it. I’m not sure how that works but. Yeah. Like I never thought the outside world was was that big a threat. I mean if anything I’d want to want to have more friends so Deadman’s me whether they were witnesses or not. Like I know I did have this way of thinking. But even once I met friends as a kid I never try to push my faith on them. I never said that they were wrong but it was just kind of a way that you were taught. I never saw the outside threat or the outside world as a threat. I mean I was just more curious than anything I guess. So I had I had moved until like my third house as a kid maybe when I was about 9 years old.

[00:08:56] And then there was there was two kids who lived right down the street. One was two houses away away and then the other one was houses the way I remember I had went to the to the to the four house away kid. There was Carlos and get a Playstation here a bunch of games everything. And I remember the first thing I did was I went to the games and I was like alright I can play this I can play this I can’t play this I can play this I can’t play this like all mobile video games. And I remember that I think all he asked was like well why. And then I was just like huh yeah you’re right my parents aren’t here. And I mean I guess I did try to have this looming thing that Joe was watching me or something. But I was just like well. But I guess I just started playing playing violent video games. I forgot what the games were back then but I remember that that I play smack down a lot. Back in those days. But yeah me just playing stupid games and everything but that was. That was the point where I was like tainted by the outside world because he also listens like Eminem and like rap back in the day. So that was what got me into that culture too. And then once I learned of that culture than that I mean I like I wasn’t trying to be a witness part well yeah. Yeah. And that’s and that’s what I don’t understand about nowadays. I don’t know how people can still be jobi like.

[00:10:15] Like all you need to do is go to Google and then just google Jehovah’s Witnesses like like like the first link will beJ.W. dot org. But everything else is going to be some kind of criticism or some kind of like exposed video or something like Just go on google. Everyone has a smartphone. Everyone has a laptop or a computer or something or go to the library like research your religion from third party sources because I remember that they would pretty much preach tend not to look outside. And I was like Wait so you’re telling me that there is thousands of peer reviewed scientific journals. There is like there’s all this other evidence and information out there but we’re supposed to only read a handful of books from the last 150 years. No that’s a lie. That makes no sense to me. So yeah I like it but is anyone listening. That hasn’t gotten Google yet but I’m sure they did because they promised you know I remember one of the first times that I ever asked the question about like Africa what it was about. But I remember that I didn’t even get an answer because I think I asked the elder or it was my dad or something and whoever it was they told me and they’re like oh that’s just Satan planting a seed of doubt in your heart. And then what I first heard that I was like 14 or 15 years old and I was like This is bull shit like you’re really begging me to take them. And they’re like you know like sums up the year and I forgot what that question was.

[00:11:41] I wish I could remember but just just their response like this reeks of brainwashing you know my mom had tried to institute like a family study time and everything. I’m like Saturday at 2:00 o’clock. And I used to hate it so much. Like I mean like we hardly even did family dinner like I had a very isolated family and my dad would work he would. He would work third shift he would sleep in in the morning time and then he would just watch TV or just do like yardwork or whatever yesterday my mom would be on her computer. My mom has always been pretty technologically proficient and I got that from her. So both me and her I always use news like computers all the time growing up. My dad used to use a computer now Marty because he’s a he’s retired we don’t have a super close family. I mean we all still love each other and everything but we weren’t overly affectionate about it. Yeah. So they kind of like like they don’t force anything on me at home. I mean they watch what I did and and like my mom was like Okay. So it’s funny because I always tell people about how my mind was and and they kind of flipped shit about like the way my mom would react reaction back in the day because she would set up cameras to shoot set up like listening devices like just like little reporters just to see what I’m doing.

[00:12:59] And like I just always think I’m like if Jehovah is watching me and I’m judging me for what I’m doing then what’s the point of you watching me like if I don’t care what God is thinking of me then like what I care. My mom is reporting me. And like I actually have a thing. I prefer my mom more because she’s actually right there in front of me and she can take my ex by the way. But yes she used to like just watch everything I did and like I like it sounds bad but that was a normal part of life for me too. So even when I tell people like that story I’m just like yeah you know this my life growing up they’re like Are you serious. Your mom I did this live. So that was the only weird thing because I didn’t like like my dad was pretty chill. I’m actually I’m I’m I’m a hundred percent sure that my dad was a stoner when he was a teenager and he would listen to Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin I’m like Hendrix everything. And I actually kind of got that from him to blow up the music so much. But I’m I’m kind of a stoner nowadays. But yeah. So I think that he didn’t care as much what he did care but he just and he’s just a real chill guy. I guess that’s the best way to put it. So yeah. Like I never got it forced on me too much but I deftly. I mean like they always want me. So I do my Watchtower study. I could never miss a meeting. I could never miss going on a field service like I had to fake being sick so much as a kid just to get out of this.

[00:14:20] And so what people don’t understand about witnesses to is that you don’t get their weekend. We can sleep in and watch cartoons and eat cereal because if you have multiple congregations at the Kingdom Hall on Sunday then like you’re like you’re meeting could be at 9:00 in the morning 12:00 in the afternoon 3:00 in the afternoon and then if you have a 9:00a.m. meeting then Saturday morning you’re like waking up for field service and then Sunday morning you have a meeting. So it’s like you have no time to chill cause you go back to school on Monday. And that was like last for a year at a time or sometimes I’ll be meeting with what would be 12 or three and that was like a blessing until football season came around and would miss football. But yeah. So like my parents never missed meeting everyone in my skilled service. I would do my studies obviously like like no violent video games or even just the most innocuous stuff like they would like. They would mention like I remember I want to buy this shirt and this shirt. This is like really ironic thing that is just a major red flag when you look back on it. But I want to buy this shirt and this shirt. It said truth seekers it’s it like it said like something about truth dhikr isn’t that like there was a little paragraph of text you like super small text like Oh we are the ones that look Patru with them like blah blah whatever it was.

[00:15:34] I’m sorry Gerbrandt called academics back in the day you know and it looked like and then it was like a picture of a crane or something on it it was a thing like religious at all. And then I remember my dad was just like you know like you shouldn’t get this because people might get the wrong idea I’m like the wrong idea. Like if anything this like we call ourselves the truth. So this shirt should relate. You know like when LeBron James had that witness shirt. So it’s funny because my parents actually bought those shirts just but you know for the purpose of being a witness. Yeah which is funny. Yes. So I mean my parents are moderate. They were lean yeah except my mom she was a little bit more high strung. But I can understand why and why my mom would be. And it’s because like like your brother growing up and he went to school in Chicago and she got killed out here in the 70s. So I think I think I think her losing him is the reason why she clung to the religion why she was so overbridge overprotective about me. So I mean I can’t I can’t fault them too much because I mean my parents were doing were trying to do the right thing and they would do what they genuinely believed in. And this is just that me and them have different ideas of what’s right what’s wrong. My saving grace at the Kingdom Hall was that I was so like I said for the class clown. I feel like talking to people you know like okay so. So growing up I had had a few speech impediment. I still have my list now.

[00:17:06] But growing up I have like a stutter and that’s kind of why I can trip up on words sometimes I have to say like in between the words deaf the kind and slow myself down. But my saving grace at the hall was that I could talk to people and I actually like giving talks and I gave my first thought when I was five years old. It was just a Bible reading at a time because this was like 1995. So I just went up there and I had so much speech impediments like I would say Jehovah like de Hoba and I would try not stutter. I had my list but everything. So the one good thing about growing up a witness in the hall is that I broke my fear of speaking in front of people even though I had my speech impediments at a super early age. And I think they put my emphasis on my reading and like and like they put emphasis on education but only within the organization you know I mean like like as soon as the meeting was over as soon as we had a witness I was out of witness mode. I was just I mean I would still like kind of keep my composure but I would I would be playing with my friends joking around nothing to like lewd or like like I’ve seen back in the day but that was partly because I was around them too because at school. It was completely different story. My best trait as a witness was like was was was was giving talks. Sometimes I’ll be good out in service by the time we kind of did like it at all.

[00:18:27] I don’t think people thought too negatively or too negatively of me. I don’t think I was ever seen as like a bad influence maybe like. Like a few times because I was kind of making it a little bit more obvious toward my late teens. I was like not really following everything because I mean I just wouldn’t volunteer to hold my ex or rape. Actually I remember early on I actually liked holding of a microphone and then like passing it out because you might not be bored just sit there all day and night and listen to the same thing that we study two days ago with your family. I wasn’t I wasn’t seen as like as like the black sheep of the hall until I was reproved. I think when I was like 16 or 17 and then I got this fellowship when I was 18 and I think so I was never seen as like the black sheep until then. So life Galen Hall was was pretty decent. I mean you know it’s never mind sitting through an hour hour and a half old bible talk. But I mean having your friends afterwards like thankfully there was a bunch of kids and my whole and then that that made so much better I could only imagine going to a hall of like all people. So now you get to sit through like bible talk. But then you have to be the one kid amongst all these old people after that like this. Like that would be fun. So I had fun.

[00:19:41] But I mean at the same time what I look back on it like damn I could’ve been using that time even if it’s just a play to create more memories but I could’ve been you know like tinkering with like electronics or driving more or like building up my skill set or something else that I became interested in later on. I never saw the meetings as super negative but I also did want to be there either my witness life was completely separate from my real personal life or I meet her or how I would be at school or around my friend because like all my close friends knew that I was a witness by never led seep into into anything else I did. Because I mean you know like growing up I felt it was just a part of life. Like I never I never thought that was my entire life. And I remember my mom and I think a lot of witnesses have this term that they say double life like you’re leading a double life hand. Oh actually yeah. Like I remember like circuit Overseer’s I’m like people using that term back then but I used to think that was funny because they said that you were leading a double life where really you were just trying to lead your own life. Like there’s no double life like you acting different here at the hall. But I mean people also different at their jobs for how they do outside too. So yeah I never understood that terminology and that’s why they why they mention that I never saw it as as I Breaking Bad too much.

[00:21:06] But once I was so OK first time I was with the second person and talk about but but I’ll try anyway because because because it’s relevant by member because I have lost my virginity really early on I had like girlfriends when I was younger and everything. And you know I remember the first time I ever said but when I was like 10 years old. And then you think that you’re that you’re about to be smitten feels like feels the words come out of your mouth. But I’m like. But then later on I kept doing worse and worse stuff like I remember when I first had sex like like it did and it didn’t really faze me too much so I mean I knew it was like a big deal as far as your life goes but I never I never saw it as like being anything that Jehovah was just write me down for like like I did kind of feel like I could just go back to the hall and then just keep being good and then it would kind of offset that anyway. So so I was like so I had a girlfriend early on and I remember when like North Korea first started getting theU.S. to that world. This wasn’t the first time but I remember this was like I remember this was once it was it was in the news pretty heavy and around 2006 I met Kim Jong Il was talking about like bomb in theU.S. or whatever. Now like I may not I know better I would never made this mistake. But back then I was kind of just like super paranoid that the end was coming. You know like like 9/11 was five years before that.

[00:22:35] I remember once 9/11 happened like the way that that that this is teacher growing up is that like it that these things will happen and then the end will come. Or how the how the scripture goes I would have my head now but yes so. So once that happened once I heard that Kim Jong Il was like threatening theU.S. and it seemed like we were getting closer to war. I thought we were getting close to him again. And I remember like kind of just being super nervous everyday pressure because I was having sex with my girlfriend all the time. And I thought I was like Armageddon was coming and then I was going to be smitten and then you know I would die forever or whatever and out and I actually just came out to my parents and then I thought about everything I did. They like they had scheduled like meetings with the elders I’d tell them everything and then that was the first time that I was I was reproved. And I remember that left for about like well like not the actual reproves itself but just like my whole life zealousness had came back afterwards. And then like I like I take that serious for about a month after that are like a month after I first went to the elders and then I know I can kind of warm or out of bed or I just didn’t care that much like I did kind of believe it. But like I had this weird relationship with being a witness where I didn’t 100 percent believe it. But that was just kind of how I live my life. So so so that was just normal to me.

[00:24:04] So yeah I mean it was so it was kind of back to square one after that. But then once I was disfellowshipped. So like one of my best friends who I had quite grown up with since I was 9. So life like with my best friend was it was was getting married and he had like an out of date and everything and then I was just Falchion so I was trying really hard to get back so I could go to his wedding and then not be shunned. He like I think he was talking me through someone else like a sister or my mom or something. And then they told me I could go to his wedding if I want to well like wow wow. I was just fellowship. But I had I had chosen not to because I did cause I felt being a witness is a big popularity contest. And then and then if you’re not popular and then you show up around a popular person then them like their rap will take hits. So I don’t want to go to his wedding and make him look bad because to hear this this dispels a person showing up. So I’ve missed him going to going to look like my best friend’s wedding because I was disfellowshipped when I was 18. And yeah that was a really weird time because I was well what I’d switch high schools to like like halfway through so I was at new high school. I was out again shunned by people this was like toward the end of my high school career too. But like I had a girlfriend at the time to then and she wasn’t a witness off fiercely.

[00:25:26] So yeah it was it was it was a really weird time for me because I I was stunned by a lot people I didn’t know a lot of people at high school I was going to. And that kind of made me because I was a lot more outgoing and like I was more of a class clown like middle school. But but once I got to high school and then I change high schools and then I was in the process of being shunned to that kind of change my personality a lot actually because I mean if I still ahead if I still had the same kind of Christian life I did have a kid I’d be a comedian or something now. You know but like I do have that low spurts. But I also but like like I also see the part me come out that was kind of taught to me like midway through my heart. Where do my high school career was that. Just keep to yourself. Because like when you’re being shunned in this one place that you go to three times a week and then to like like you like you’re in high school where you were you don’t know anyone and you kind of have to make a name for yourself. But yeah all those things happened to me right around that time was probably the worst time that it could happen. Like like as far as as far as a like construct of time and like I’m like decisive time in your life where where we’re you we kind of mold your personality through those years. But I mean like I say I mean like I always say that I think I have a really unique perspective.

[00:26:45] I have two parents from completely different places who kind of brought us to the middle of nowhere as far as like where they’re from. And I have no family. I have no I have no like fallback plan. It’s pretty much just me. But even but even in that circumstance I still have had to leave leave the truth in and in the air quotes because I just didn’t. I just didn’t believe it. So even even even even through all that stuff happening at their high school I never felt obligated to stay or that that was my only my only method of making a making a life for myself. I’ve a lot of stuff to say about disfellowshipping like. I think most like I think most witnesses do. But it makes no sense that that your solution to the problem of someone committing like like a deadly center something is to completely shun them. Why shouldn’t I be the person that you’re trying to help the most. Like shit like shit like shunning makes no sense. I wonder why you wouldn’t be trying to offer words of encouragement or advice to someone who is in a position where they obviously stand and you kind of have to bring back to the light. I don’t know why do think that that’s an effective method. And it also to you I mean because Kazami isn’t married. Is there an instance in the Bible where Jesus is like sitting with like some Kassin.

[00:28:06] After I figure forget what he was doing with all my year of going to the Bible over and over and over again and remember anything anyone like I used to I used to be able to like to quote certain scriptures about remember much from the Bible anymore. But yeah I like as far as the shipping goes. I don’t understand why why that’s their solution to everything and also because okay so me myself. So I’m an actor right now. Like I was never disfellowshipped I was never I’d never dissociated myself. But what’s funny is that so I have a friend and his face. There was this fellowship in about five years ago and I remember my mom wasn’t talking to her at the time even though these were family friends. So no one was talking to her in the meanwhile. Like here I’d come along and I think I’d I’d like like I had my ears pierced at the time too. And like here I come along with facial hair ears pierced. Obviously not going to the hall and I can still talk to my witness friends because well not all my witness friends but I had a couple that that I’ll still talk to you and they don’t treat me differently. But like I just don’t talk to them what’s the point. I mean obviously it’s like I was doing this scholarship worthy things at the time and I and I still do. But I never I never took that route. So people didn’t view me as ever in that red area like I was in that gray area where I could still talk to witnesses. But meanwhile let me. But like me I’d like you here.

[00:29:30] Here is this girl who wants to come back who is just fellowship but they will talk to her even though she’s making an active effort to come back to the home. So it makes no sense and I don’t know anyone ever actually thought about objectively and also to like so. So like I get the line of logic that they’re coming to disfellowshipping being an option to lie. I get how they come to that point. But I think what happened was that at first they were like Okay we shouldn’t associate with these people so we shouldn’t be spending extra time with them. By the whole you know like treat them like a normal human being. But I think what happened is that since like being a witness is a big popularity contest like one person is like Okay well I’m not going to hang out with a person outside the home. And the next person is like Okay well that I’ve taught that person and the next person is like Okay well I’m I’m going to look at that person and then that’s pretty much what comes down to it. If there are witnesses like we’ll not even look at you sometimes and what you just gossip like even even so much as exchanging a smile like like kind of like shows or really on that person. So yeah like the whole concept of disfellowshipping just doesn’t make much sense to me. I think that if someone is in these dire straits as far as their faith bill goes then you should be helping to support that and not completely shutting people away. You watch you all and it feels like you’re invisible.

[00:30:54] Because people just look at you like unless maybe the elders would maybe come up to you and I talk to you sometimes if they want to have a talk and see how you’re doing. But that was only like every few weeks or like a month or whatever. I mean I was a fellowship for six or seven months. They say six months. But they rarely let you in right back in six months. It seems like because I remember people who were good it who would get the skill that I remember from that day. I would like I would I would look out six months now why. OK. They should be back around this time but it was always closer to seven eight months that people would would come back. And I mean I made a concerted effort to come back. I just never missed meetings never missed books studies. And like I said it was pretty much just to make my friends wedding which I still did make. And I mean it was. It was to get back on good terms with all these people too because you know I lost all my all my friends from childhood once I got disfellowshipped yeah. Once I came back after seven months it like like it did seem like it just got wiped away that that feeling of animosity. That feeling of invisibility. But yeah. In the meantime it doesn’t feel like you exist. Well you kind of just are just floating through this hole. And then they’ll spread a bump shoulders with you. No one’s even looking in your direction. You feel like a ghost.

[00:32:13] And I’m like not just not just the part where were where people should be helping you pisses me off about this whole thing but just but just how did make you feel like I mean like like no one should ever be made to feel that way even even in the outside world like that supposed to be so big and bad. No one treats you let me back anywhere at night unless you’re a criminal or or something of some sort. But I mean like like I gave into a normal human urge. And then the Bible didn’t agree with that. So therefore I’m assigned to the end is seen by everyone as as as left to begin with. I don’t think it is. It just doesn’t make sense to me. I remember some elders would would come to me maybe every so month just a checkup and then see I’m doing our thing. They would really ask me any questions. Well I mean they would ask me questions but it was like they had like a guide book of questions. I was like oh who is Jehovah to you and then like was kingdom of God like it’s not like the questions they they go over with you for baptism but it kind of ask you how are you doing. And then I mean like I’ve heard that they can’t just observe you and make sure that you make it to the hall that you’re doing your study I guess like a Bible other. I mean they wouldn’t talk to you weekly by any means or at every meeting. And I remember actually to once I had once I had gone to so what I had done is I started going to a nearby hall when I was this fellowship. I don’t know why I did this.

[00:33:43] Actually like if it was just because I got disfellowshipped or what but I went to a nearby hall where I knew a few people but I could more easily sit in the back there and not see everyone I knew so so so like I like I kind of took a back door to that whole experience but I don’t know why I did that. Like getting back out maybe because it was closer to my place. And I mean I think it was part that I didn’t want to see everyone that I knew knew very well. So I went to a new congregation and they had a book study there too. Because I mean I don’t think that I don’t think that that any disfellowshipped people would go to a book study anyone’s house. I mean I’m sure this some kind of like like arbitrary de facto rule about but yes so that was that was my experience. The biggest falls apart never really had elders come to me and then talk to me too much. They would ask me questions here and they’re just doing. I had to write a letter early on to the elders and I was kind of just showing your remorse for what you’ve done and I think you do have to kind of echo those life those same sentiments. And in the second letter that you sent I’ll remember every setting and the other letters besides that. But I remember sending a like Molly reinstatement letter and the first time out kind of like I was I was kind of rejected which was like at exactly six months.

[00:35:07] But then like a month after that they were like OK we’ll let you back in. And I don’t know what that was for like oh no alcohol is just too bad like it. Because I mean I was a good writer growing up too so I could I could imagine that even if I didn’t feel genuinely empathetic about the whole situation about life about about what I was what I had done I wonder how they would even determine that. But yeah I was I was I was rejected the first time the second time I got back. But like I said that was like two weeks after my friend had been married. So by that point I missed the mark but I was just trying to get back in any way so I can just see everyone again and talk to everyone. I don’t think they would come to you. I think even if they saw you coming every week if you didn’t talk to them first like you could be going backwards for three years and they still would let you back in. Like I mean I think that you need to go to them first and then tell them like hey like I want to come back. One thing that I want to mention too is that I would never be in that situation if I wasn’t baptized at 12:00. And the witness is always trying to champion this idea that like oh Catholics baptized their love like their children when they’re babies. But you know like you can think for yourself and then and then like you can get baptized when you want. But like I said a million times it’s a popularity contest.

[00:36:26] So if you’re friends getting baptized at ten or eleven which are different you got baptized like nine or eight like he’s like the golden boy. And I hear you are not baptized not able to be behind the Ligia counter at the hall and then give our magazines to people like you’re just you know you’re like like you’re a little upon the in the in the kingdom whole world. So I never got myself into these extremely emotionally upsetting conditions had never made this or had I never had my parents and everyone else makes the decisions for me when I was way too young to make this decision. And I think that they really need to like I mean if they were to reform the religion because I don’t think they’re Jehovah’s Witness like I should be completely done away with. I think everyone should believe what they want to do but like I think that every religion can needs an overhaul and they need to look back at their values and just take out these extremely archaic ways of dealing with people and yeah like it just doesn’t have any doesn’t have any grounding in the current day reality or with how people should be treating each other. It’s just completely outdated. It’s funny that I did all this work to get back that I mean by doing all this work I mean just going to the hall and being shot every hour or like three times a week. But once I came back was I was maybe 18 and a half or something like it was. It was Wiggily come back. I think my friend I got married in June and I came back before the summer and it was like 2008.

[00:38:11] So yeah. So I didn’t think I was going to go to college when I was in high school. And that’s part of being a witness to is that they tell you that you died that you shouldn’t go to college that you shouldn’t seek higher education because they preach they that you should be out there pretty much evangelizing and going door to door. And you know spreading the Good Word of Jehovah or whatever. So I did find out I would go to college. So for about maybe six months after high school I was working at a factory that would be up at like 4:00 in the morning. Be there at 5:00 work until 5:00 in the wintertime. Like you don’t even see the light of day and you work for minimum wage like criminals at a factory like yeah this is not the life for me. I mean like it was fun. I never had like I have like a bad experience other than I have had to wait for. But I did think that that taught me the value of good hard work back then. But yes I was working a job at a factory and I was like Okay this is not life to me. And I had always like I was always drawing.

[00:39:14] I was always like trying to do my own little illustrations everything so I picked up a little bit of like 8p.m. VSS once I was in high school but I never did anything too much with it other than I edited my Myspace profile page but I figured what I wanted to do was get into some kind of art like graphic design or something Urd or something work on computers. I was always on my on my laptop back in the day and then I had photoshop and I would like this mess around that little bit. Saavik I’m going to be a graphic designer. And I remember what it was like kind of a struggle with my parents to get them to go out to get them to let me go to school special with my mom losing her losing her brother in Chicago as a teenager. So I remember talking with them about moving out of the city and then going to the school out here where I was going to the first day the Art Institute and they were kind of they were kind of has 10 abide first special with loans which they were actually right about. I should’ve never signed away with it for loans. But I mean I’m glad that that that I went to school definitely because I mean that’s what I’ve kind of made it like like made a living out of so far as making websites and I like doing design for people. Yeah that was around the time when I was mentally out at that time. I remember what my thought process was actually though so. I do remember before I moved to the city I was going to this like local college by my house and I took a world religions course. And I remember my teacher was like this like maybe like at the oldest like like like 35 year old guy. And I think one of the first questions that he ever asked in the class was he was like do you take the Bible metaphorically or literally.

[00:41:08] And then my first response was Oh well like literally of course you know it’s the Bible. And then he was like Okay so then you believe that like a guy god like God two of every species of animal. Load them onto a boat and they’re floated out like this huge ocean that engulfed the earth for 40 days and 40 nights. And then I was like Well I mean what you put it that way then you know I guess and the like and I guess that my life that my freight car despite tumbling down from there. And I remember for a little bit because I could I got back and forth with majors a million times in my first year of college. And I remember at one point I want to get in to like something to do with religion like I want to study religion because it’s always been really interesting to me even once I was in high school. I remember thinking that Islam was like was was like super interesting. I just thought how like like like like I mean how hot how submission is one of the basic pillars of of of Islam. And then you need to completely dedicate yourself to the faith. I thought that was kind of relevant my experience. And I remember that once I once had once I had dropped my parents that I wanted to study religion in college. They were really has tell about it and I thought that was weird too because I’m like how this is weird because you know I mean if you guys think that what you have is the truth why are you so scared to look other places you know.

[00:42:30] And I mean and I eventually didn’t go for that but I was the last week courses at my age that I could take my religion I would take. So I think that was one of the first lessons by which really should my faith. I mean now that like not that my faith was strong to begin with but that was kind of just like reaffirming what I had always felt and oh that was on 18 19. And then once I moved to Chicago and I was going to college out here I just completely stopped going. I just never. And I remember once I would come out here with my mom and then we would like to look for places. I remember the kind of cold and cold looking for came how to go to you. And we had like like I drove past a couple. But I mean I still have I moved out here I just stopped going and I never thought twice about it. I never I was never I never felt bad. I never felt like oh like I need to pray or anything but I’ve been praying eight years. I haven’t I haven’t gone to the whole eight years. I’ve read a watchtower. Eight years. Yeah I just completely just left and then I remember lay out lay down remember my parents asked me if I would if I was going to the hall what I first moved out. But I remember when I first got my ears pierced I like Gage my ears a little bit. And I remember what I first curious.

[00:43:49] My theory is I called them late late late at night because of this but I was part of them and I’d seen them every week and at that point I was like I got some news for you guys. And then my dad thought I got someone pregnant at first and that I was like I no not that bad but I pierced my ears. And I think that you know obviously I know it was a big deal but I made my parents have always been a better time of. They’re like Okay well it world like he’s going do what he wants. And there was never that much that much push back on me. I mean we did have a bunch of arguments like him ever in my first few years of being inactive not about me being inactive but just kind of like debating religion and philosophy and stuff. And I made it but it was always hard to talk about that stuff because anyone who believes in God that’s like their trump card is like a because I mean I could say you know there’s no there’s no rock layers that show that there was a great global flood like this. No. Kind of like all archaeological remains that could back this up but they just say the Bible said it and then that’s that’s that’s all they have to say. They only to back up with science or anything else. Gave my ears curious after that was that was like that was like my next stage of kind of being out of it because I knew at that point I couldn’t go back to the hole with my ears pierced you know. And I even like growing facial hair.

[00:45:18] He was such a big thing. But yeah but like like that was what I was completely out was my first year working out which is when I was 20. And so imagine that I had been shunned as a witness and that I was might be kind of like some I’ve shunned again it’s about Bastardo and active. I just moved to a new city. I didn’t have a lot of friends and my second high school class was new there. And then I’m going to college to this college that wasn’t that wasn’t exactly like a college experience it wasn’t my dorm is where you have to associate with people. It was like you would go to class and leave. So I was like really I’m my own out here. I remember my first year. I mean I would just work. I would come home from work and then I would like watch the office and bingeing on and then that with a cream treat Netflix day. So I had a bit of I was like pretty alone back then. I still made the choice to leave the religion because I just knew it like it wasn’t what I wanted to do with my life. And and and I knew that I had to take a step back and then see it from from you know a wide angle lens and then see what I actually thought about in it in context with other religions and actual culture and see if it it kind of reflected what I want to do.

[00:46:32] But and that there was a look at the conclusion that I came to I knew that I did do something else with my life they always frame it like people want to leave the organization just to go like live like debaucheries life and it and it’s not that way. I think it’s just that they see anything outside of being witness as being at the bottom. So I mean my favorite part of being out of the organization is you know yeah just being able to experience life for what it is like being able to get drunk and then not going to sell it because I knew some some some early like well. So I knew a couple older brothers in the congregation back in the day who were actually fathers of my friends and they would they would get disfellowshipped for for getting drunk I cinemagraph think they would do anything other than that. But just what I overheard that sound like it was but yeah I mean yeah. Like I think my favorite part of I also not having to attend to this faith. Three times a week. And then outside add to your own personal study then outside of that go door to door. It just takes up so much time and it makes sense that like there’s lot of witnesses who just like make a living for themselves as like as like cleaners where they go to offices and clean their homes and clean up whatever witnesses just franchise out a business model for home cleaning. They would actually be be like like I’ll be super attractive for them. They’ll be funny like spelled like like low stereotype loafers for the pretty way this is bad. Anyway I think my favorite part.

[00:48:09] I’d say about not being a witness anymore is there also that I’m not a popularity contest anymore. Like I mean I’ve always been I’ve always reacted really adversely to any kind of popularity contest. Whether it was it was at a high school or on the Internet or anything and then that was how being a what this was it was just everyone trying to be holier than thou and like and and then you’re constantly having to keep up with this image of yourself that you have to like look good. Like before Jehovah or before the elders or circuit overseer or are at the assembly earlier conventions or something. So I’m just glad I can live my life the way I want to and not have you. I mean obviously people are going to judge you. I mean being a witness is like is is you’re under the scope 24/7 at being just 24/7 and then just being able to live my life and not have to feel bad for it. That’s the best part. And it sounds like it should be a word. I mean it’s not like this shouldn’t sound like a human right. It is a human right. The whole concept of the pursuit of happiness is a human right. And I mean I just drifted away from you because you have to live by these rules. You have to answer to these people. Education. Make it make a make a hint towards going the other way or else working in a gang to shun you to end and then going to put you out like play off the group. I mean it’s just such a such a like tribal mentality.

[00:49:42] I mean that’s that’s probably like light light light like the route of religion is just like living in these tribes and trying to come up with with a shared understandings of the world amongst everyone else. And then it just becomes a problem once you get your own human rights violated or you get your own humanity violated. And that’s why I feel like what happens with witnesses sometimes even though I think they’re good people I think they’re all like really great people I think they’re well-meaning. I think they’re just misguided. I think that like they just fell down this track. And also to like witnesses you love these tactics that other codes used. And it’s not like it’s as simple as looking up what is called The Bite Model. I think it is the end. And then and then just seeing some some of these tactics that they use on you to keep you in the street without you even knowing why. I mean the first time that I read about love bombing I was like wow this is exactly like like like being a witness is everyone’s just like oh like like we have such love for our fellow brothers and sisters. And then why they preach this whole concept of like a gap a which was a Hebrew word for brotherly love I think. But if you go the wrong way and that if you commit a deadly sentiment and then you just fellowship well all that goes out the window. All that brotherly unconditional love goes out the window. So the unconditional love. Have a condition. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Like there’s a real life. Like a real strong divide of black and white in those terms.

[00:51:17] And I mean. And and as far as unconditional love it should never be that way. Yeah I was. That was kind of how that was just how it was. I mean no one ever saw anything outside of that was just how it was supposed to be my friends who were worldly. I’m still friends with nowadays. And as long as I don’t do anything terrible then will always be my friends I’m assuming you know as far as I’m crossed them or. Or you know yeah. Like life like commit some heinous crime. I wouldn’t expect them to ostracize me from their life. But yeah. But if you don’t believe in like I remember once I got that. That like that like seed of doubt planted in your heart by saying the statement told me when I was younger but I think that my second moment like that was when I was getting shot. So this was my first moment because this was before the previous one. But I remember I was going over the questions for baptism which is also just learning the answers and reciting them later. Like you don’t actually get stupid. Yeah but I remember getting to the question and it was like Do you believe that Jehovah’s kingdom is an actual place or like life or heart condition. And once I read that I was like a heart condition like like having something wrong with your heart. It’s not me. And I was young every time I like 12 and I still knew that and I was confused by that question.

[00:52:51] And I was going over it with my parents and then I think I was going over it with my mom and my mom like so my mom was always pretty like on the edge emotionally like she had depression and my anxiety growing up and why she just felt like crying. What I could answer that question. I always thought that was interesting because the like why the reason why she started crying was because she just like she thought I didn’t know the answer to a question which looks like a pretty basic question for being a witness. I just don’t understand the wording of it. I thought it meant a heart condition. And I remember that they called the elders because the elders were supposed to come and talk to me my three days on there something and then and then they were supposed to go with the questions with me. And then they’ve called them and they were like no he’s not ready blah blah whatever. And it had. And yeah like that put a major seed of doubt in my heart right there I was just like alright like all I have to do is is is is like recite these answers. But meanwhile you’re acting like me not being able to understand how this question is worded is like a deadly sin in itself. The more I think about it it impacts everything about me. I’m like I’m a super skeptical person and I think that was a byproduct of being a witness.

[00:54:20] Not that they teach you to be skeptical but you naturally become skeptical because so like being being a witness isn’t like being Amish or something like You look like you’re still living in a normal world mostly but you’re just being taught these like completely different things so I think that being a witness taught me to be skeptical because also I think what is about to is that it’s a kind of questioning big religion like Catholicism and like all those huge like Sexo Krrish of Christianity. And I think that it taught me to be skeptical. I will say that I got like I feel like always reading the Bible and always reading the watchtower and everything back the day Duffie did help my reading a lot because I remember I was reading from a very early age and I think it was as I think was because my parents always wanted me to follow along with watchtower and everything and then I had my book of bible stories. So I think that everything that I do nowadays is kind of shaped by it because yeah. Like I mean like I mentioned I’m a very skeptical person. I’m a very pessimistic person and I and I think that’s because being witness to because it’s kind of telling you that Satan runs the world and that kind of all hope is lost except for except for this one day that Jehovah should come down after you been being persecuted and the Great Tribulation but not until then are you going to actually like life ever feel true happiness. All this is just passing you know. So that kind of worldview kind of stuck with me. I have a very interesting view of religion. But I will say that I have came around recently and I’m still not religious but I do believe in some kind of higher power.

[00:56:09] I think that because one thing that that this has always point to as their proof of God is just how the universe and how the Earth is designed and how humans are designed and yeah everything is super amazing and we can’t understand it. But I mean we can’t just say how big space is right now. Like I mean if you’re trying to sit down and think about it like it’s ever expanding so you can never grasp how big space is like a like if you see a picture of of the sun next to the earth that you’re like holy crap that is just that is completely just dwarfs it. And then and then the sun as it is is a dwarf star I think too right. So like that’s a tiny light love like it like a tiny celestial body. In the grand scheme of things so I think there’s of things that we can’t understand and we’re not supposed to understand because we’re just humans like we’re like we’re a drop in the bucket as far as all time has gone. And I think that religion tried tries to tries to attribute motives and attribute some some like deeper meaning of things to the universe. By me I think I think that I think that we’re all kind of here by chance and I mean maybe there was some kind of higher power that that affected us and then kind of guided our evolution in the way that we went. But I think just this whole like black and white view of the world where someone just came down and then decided that they wanted to just arbitrarily make humankind and then have to follow his rules doesn’t doesn’t make any sense to me.

[00:57:45] But I think that the way that I look at everything I think I have a pretty like balanced view of everything I know that there’s two sides to every story. And like one thing it changed with me too was that you know I was never political at all like up until a year ago really and now I mean like all i do is listen to like political podcast and then like YouTube and everything. But growing up I never I was never the politics at all because that’s it. Yeah because you could because you’re completely removed maybe because because they’re so so their way of thinking is that why get card in politics of today’s world when we’re kind of just wait for Christ Kingdom you know. So that’s one thing that that kind of change me growing up but without completely broken from that. I don’t know what other things it’s really affected my everyday life. I mean I don’t think about it very often but once I can think about and talk about it I do love talking about it because it’s just it’s such a unique experience and it’s such a. Like I feel like I was kinda kinda like a blank slate when I first moved to Chicago because I was exploring a whole new world of just living the life on my own terms like. I think that that is the way that I look at everything. It is kind of shaped and and influenced by that in some way. I was always at the hip hop and that I know is that people of Chicago have been making blogs and stuff. I think that they were doing it right.

[00:59:18] I think that they were like putting out that that good content. So I so am I kind of have my small business for a few years and I mean now I’m more into the tech world. I do a lab by design and you design graphic design. I get more into that. What I try about my own company. I don’t think that I don’t think that being a witness stifled my like my life will to be an entrepreneur or to be anything else other than someone who goes door to door every morning. So I think I do have a lot of big plans a lot big dreams outside of being a witness. I don’t think that that’s ever going to affect what I do in the future. But I mean at the same time I do recognize that it has shaped me and it has molded me. I do think that I read you want to work in politics of some sort which is extremely ironic because you’re you know growing up I was not in politics at all. And I mean I I thought I was stupid when I was younger too. But I mean I want to get like I want to form some kind of business whether I make my own YouTube or like whether it’s like a new hip hop blog or just some kind of app idea. But I do want to do something that I can call my own the one day and hopefully it becomes hugely successful. And from there I was like I mean I would like to work in politics. I would like to work in my local community.

[01:00:38] And then from there I mean if it goes farther that too. Like working on like a higher office like at a state level that I’ll be okay with that too. I don’t like the way that politics are going nowadays and naive and just because of Trump but just because of how how everyone interacts with each other and I think coming from a religion where I’ve seen people be shunned and seen people kind of be ousted as the black sheep. I can see how that could happen in normal and normal society too. So I would like to do something to kind of kind of the kind of curb that like right now I kind of have to get my old life straightened out because you know also coming from being a witness. If you want to go to college then you can have a do so. All of that on your own terms. So that was why I took out loans because in high school I didn’t care about high school because I didn’t think what you kind of don’t think of that. That school matters that much. Because I mean you’re like cut it anyway you want but being a witness is and it’s like being in a doomsday cult because they’re constantly preaching to you that it’s coming soon and that at an end like we’re in the end times and whatnot. Yeah. Like I never took highschool too seriously and because of that I wasn’t able to do well. I really do super well in college. But I mean I know what my passion is.

[01:01:58] I know that I have a passion for design and I know how to make into a business. So from there I kind of just want to build upon that and then just do my own thing. And I mean it’s it’s kind of ironic that once I look back on it now that you know like I’ve been drawing since I was 5 4 years old and if I had known back then I would have made a living out of it. I would just tell my parents about them like a. But these meetings I’m a. My grandparents house or something. And if you guys want one to want to kick me out like like I just want to drive like work on designing things I want to be creative. And I’m like I’m excited to be a pushy parent and my kid because like I’ll be pushy on them but they’ll think me like like by the time that a teenager is like like like what is playing sports or having some kind of like talent or a hobby or play an instrument like I want to make sure that the time that my parents had me sitting at a meeting listening to like the same Bible talking points regurgitate over and over again I’m going to have them like like learn a skill. Families do as Wolf myself as I believe I can I’m I’m. I’m good. They had a big idea like. Like I can’t just work out like a simple 9 to 5 and then expect to make a big name for myself. I could kind of like work out my little building blocks towards that point.

[01:03:23] I mean I just want to come up with some kind of idea that it could be a home run that’s going to be like like whether it’s a successful app or like a or just any kind of a successful company. That’s just what I’m shooting for eventually. What I believe now I think that the Bible and God is just the metaphor for yourself and then trying to be God like is just trying to reach your highest form. So whether that be getting up and running at 5a.m. every morning or working at the business or working on your art or doing whatever it like. Usually we try to become a god but God and your own sense and then that includes being moral not harming other people but just achieving but just achieving the pinnacle of your happiness and your success should be what being a god is to everyone and you shouldn’t have to look to other people to determine what the terms of being a god are for you. Thank you for listening again. Feel free to leave a comment to today’s guest shunned podcast dot com on the post for this episode. Music is always an important way of marking the journey and often helps us to process feelings that we can’t express at the time. So visit the website to see the songs chosen by each guest to represent their personal journey. Speaking of music all music on this podcast has been performed by Poddington Bear if you appreciate this podcast. Please help others find it while leaving a five star review on iTunes which helps the show rank and get exposure. If you are shunned and want to tell your story email me through the contact form on the Web site or if you just want to say hi.

[01:05:11] Feel free to do the same. If you’d like to know more about me and the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses I encourage you to listen to my nine part series on the cult at thisjwlife.com we’re on the podcast called thisJ.W. life. Remember that those around you may be going through something like this and that you have no knowledge of. So give them the benefit of the doubt love others do no harm and go be happy.