Episode Nineteen – Lyndi is shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses

Episode Nineteen – Lyndi is shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:41] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we expose the religions that use shunning as a tool to control people. Today I have an interview that I did with Lyndi. She’s a truly amazing woman that has a lot of insight into a lot of things. And I’m sure those are hard won lessons. You know kind of living a trying life. You’re going to hear a story about a young marriage in the witnesses a story that unfortunately echoes many others. You also hear a mother’s struggles after becoming a mom and suffering postpartum depression and then the spiral that led to her waking up and leaving the court behind. You’re also going to hear what it’s like to have your own daughter show on you and you’re going to learn what she’s done to try to reach her daughter someday.

[00:01:26] So let’s go ahead and get to know Lyndi. My name is Lindy.

[00:01:32] I was I am forty three years old. I was a Jehovah’s Witness. And now I am shunned.

[00:01:39] All right Lyndi so then how did you come to be a Jehovah’s witness in the first place. What age did that happen.

[00:01:46] Well it happened when I was 10 years old. I’ve kind of thought back to this of what attracted my mom to the religion. And one factor was she had grown up in the same town for most of her life. And then she met my stepdad and he did land leasing and sold right away to land so he moved around like every six months to two years. And so immediately after they were married we moved to a different area where she didn’t have her family around. And also when she was young she was like 19. Her 15 year old sister. Died in a car accident. And I remember her saying everybody told her well God needed an angel and that never really made sense to her. So I think that she was drawn to it just for the teaching of the resurrection and that made a lot more sense than what she was taught. So we moved to this new area and I was in school with fourth grade with a boy named Jason and my little sister was in first grade with his sister and my mom approached their mother and asked if she wanted to help her with a Christmas party. And that mother said well I can’t because I’m a Jehovah’s Witness. Would you like to know more about that. My mom said sure. So she started studying with her. And I would say within a year my mom was baptized. She rushed into the baptism because she was pregnant with my youngest sister her fourth child. And she had the arch negative blood factor. And there was a good chance the baby would need a blood transfusion. So she went ahead and got baptized so she could refuse it on the grounds of being a Jehovah’s Witness and she had a home birth. So it wouldn’t be forced upon her.

[00:03:42] And she was like Yeah it really sinks in on how how much mind control was there already for her to be willing to let her the baby die in generalities that. I know why she would in full force. So. So that that’s my baby sister was OK. Luckily that seemed like you know Jehovah protecting her.

[00:04:04] That’s kind of what the thought was. So that kind of strengthened it and from my perspective the family the mother and the two kids would come over and study with me and my sister would do the Bible story Balkan. The

[00:04:19] 10 year old boy Jason was the nicest boy I had ever met in my life because he’d study with me and you know say so you know who created out of an even I would say Jehovah Niego. Good job. You know it was like wow I never had a boy so nice you know and encouraging everybody at the meetings were so nice. Then the whole thing with the Paradise was like extremely enticing to a 10 year old. And. And. And I thought I mean I was wholeheartedly immediately as well like it just sounded so good and they felt lucky to know it.

[00:04:55] And and we were just yeah immediately and yeah.

[00:05:00] Sounds like it. I mean you know obviously your mom went in full force but you even had a peer who you know to to help you along. That’s that’s a very hard thing to resist. Yes. So then what did it mean to you back then. You know you’re studying with this this other boy and you know the the Paradise sounds so nice. Did. How did that change your life. Because you know you’re 10 years old and you were in the quote world and now you’re going this new direction.

[00:05:36] Well like I remember finding out you know we couldn’t celebrate holidays and that was like really disappointing.

[00:05:43] But my mom said like she never liked the holidays anyway there were so much stress and pressure. And you’re just giving gifts for no good reason. And now we all have you know plenty of other times that we get GEF. So it’s like well okay I can I can deal with that. And then when I found out you know I made Jova sad and upset if we did holidays I was like OK I’m done with holidays and my real father picked up me and my sister.

[00:06:14] I think it was like her seventh birthday and he took us to his sisters house to have a surprise party. And I locked her and I in the bathroom crying hysterically and would not come out because I did not want to make Jehovah angry and him like kill us. So it was like that immediate to that I was willing to give up everything because I would you know because the promise of paradise. And I remember right from the get go it was coming soon like I was coming so yeah. Yes. So it was like it didn’t even seem like a big sacrifice really to me at that time because you know I we were just lucky that we found out about it. Like just in time in the end was coming and you know having the elephant and the dolphin and the lion were going to definitely make up for missing the holiday. But but immediately to my grandparents when they heard about this they told my mom like this is a cult.

[00:07:14] And I remember them coming to visit one holiday which really made my mom mad because they were like coming just to try to you know basically like satan trying to stumbler and she was very mad and offended that they called it a cult. And. My grandparents tried to get us to celebrate me and my sister wouldn’t. But my step dad and little brother did so like dad an immediate divide on the family you know like right from the get go.

[00:07:43] And all my relatives I started to see as bad and you know tried to trick us and stuff like that.

[00:07:49] So it was very quickly up very quickly my whole entire universe changed and everything good about my own personality or what I thought were my you know good things like loving animals and loving babies and being just myself wasn’t good enough anymore and all the goals that we had you know put on us by the religion really took hold and I really went for those things to please everybody.

[00:08:17] Wow that’s a really interesting point you make there. And you know what a healthy outlook it is to accept yourself as you are and to love yourself for the good qualities that you have in him suddenly to be thrust into an environment where Oh yeah none of that matters. All that matters is that you perform these certain steps or do these certain things or be what we want you to be and then all the sudden you’re no longer okay you’re not good enough that that’s an interesting point you know to to experience that even as a 10 year old you know.

[00:08:56] Yeah yeah it is. And also the whole thing of our family dynamic being wrong like it’s already hard having stepfamilies and all that but to have immediately the separation of my stepdad from my mom my mom got a lot of extra attention because she was with an unbelieving mate and she would you know get a lot of commendation for going to the assemblies with us and not him and like I could see she got a lot of good and I know what the word is good feedback reinforcement like you know just what she needed to do to make yourself feel better about moving around. You know immediate recognition for her sacrifices and how hard it was. And things like that. So are our whole family really changed in a huge way and just got like really I feel like so dysfunctional and I would always envy the families that were all in the truth. You know they seem to have a great time at assemblies and we were miserable at assemblies and all that kind of thing. So I definitely had the goal of. That’s the kind of family I wanted in the future is like everybody in the religion and the truth and that would just be so fabulous. Like I always imagine that just as the perfect family life with everybody goes the assembly happy and you know that facade that they put on. That’s what I wanted.

[00:10:22] That you know that makes sense. Now how did you how did your stepdad handle it you know because this is a huge change very quickly. So I mean you know you were just kids you may not be privy to what that was like for him. But you know any insights there as to how I mean because that’s got to be insane to watch your wife you know just suddenly flip a switch and change so much and then you’re you know your daughter’s following along you know. Yeah weekly your stepdaughter.

[00:10:55] Yeah. At first he would he he wouldn’t go or anything so my little brother and sister they got to have birthdays and Christmas and he would spoil them like in a huge way.

[00:11:05] So that made a lot of tension for me and my other sister. You know he would be on my mom’s side and they would be on that side. But eventually you’d go to some meetings and you know he thought the idea of women being submissive and you know her trying to win him over without a word.

[00:11:25] You know he would kind of like aren’t you supposed to be doing this or she kind of got irritated when he started like learning more about how she’s supposed to behave but like we moved around a lot so different places would have different vibes. But a lot of times somebody would come and study with them. And you know he never ended up getting baptized.

[00:11:48] He always got to do like basically whatever he wanted to do with everybody soul treating him really really nice plus he had a decent job with decent money.

[00:11:57] So he was able to do more for people you know and he ended up he hired a lot of Jehovah’s Witnesses so I feel like he was almost treated better than any Jehovah’s Witness was. He got away with a lot. You know what I mean.

[00:12:13] Yeah he got a lot of fans he got to ride your sides of the fence I guess major fence right.

[00:12:18] Yes. And that and toward toward the time that I was waking up I would find things out.

[00:12:27] And I thought you know he could really help our family you know like come back together. This could be really good. So I would tell them things I learned and he was the type of person that would defend them to the death even though he had no idea what he was talking about. He would say what I was saying wasn’t true. That’s not what they say. I could send them links to show them. That’s exactly what they say and they’ll be like nope.

[00:12:49] So and then ended up like he was really brainwashed by it but he still never committed to it. So it’s really bizarre.

[00:12:57] Some of the most dangerous people out there are the people who never fully committed. So they don’t know what it was really like. So use adamin comments often under you know news articles that criticize Jehovah’s Witnesses or youtube videos or whatever. You’ll see these people who they they were they weren’t good Jehovah’s Witnesses. I mean there’s just all there was to it. They were Jehovah’s Witnesses wouldn’t claim them. But yes if it came time for you know to defend Jehovah’s witnesses they would step up and defend them with these stories that aren’t accurate that simply are not an accurate portrayal of life as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses because they weren’t fully committed.

[00:13:41] Exactly. They never had the same pressure and they never had the same expectations and they always got love bomb there. So right right. Yeah. It was a frustrating situation. And my sisters my all my siblings never got fully in. So for a long time they were kind of fence writers too like they just thought they weren’t good enough to be in it you know in their own minds. They’re like I know it’s the truth. But I just don’t feel like I can live up to it. But eventually as they got older and I spoke to them and they did some of their own research they kind of realized like oh well there’s a whole bunch of things that aren’t right. And I had to do with their own experiences and their own journeys to. But they still every Jehovah’s Witness though you know we grew up knowing as a family still talk to them and not me. So of course yes. So that’s the way it goes. You confided in them. Yeah exactly. Fourteen year old then.

[00:14:39] So how did things progressed from that time you know you’re 10 years old you’re starting to study. You get baptized at 14. You know what was kind of the trajectory there as far as you know life went.

[00:14:53] Because I mean it seems like you bought the world view very quickly that the witnesses gave you because you were seeing your your family and outsiders as you know these scary people who were trying to rip you away from the truth. What about you know at school or at the meetings you know how was life going for you and this interim time where you’re building up and progressing toward baptism.

[00:15:18] Well so like with my relatives since we started moving around a lot we didn’t really have a chance to see them a lot.

[00:15:24] So that was kind of you know not a huge issue we weren’t around to do much with anybody. So we just knew like I just knew in my head they would try to like trick me up with questions or you know I just wasn’t close to them. That was the bottom line. It was like they didn’t really count as family.

[00:15:41] Now we had this new family and as we moved around it was nice to go somewhere and have an instant family like within a week of moving somewhere new. We would have like a sleepover with friends you know. So that part seemed pretty lucky. And I was home schooled and part of that was like the only entertainment I had it was going out in service.

[00:16:06] Basically it was either home doing things taking care of the kids I remember your wife’s interview she was similar where she took care of my younger sister was 10 years younger so I took care of her a lot studied with her. I always had a nice sister in the hall that would come and study with me. So I like having that.

[00:16:23] So like you know for our lifestyle moving around a lot it did bring a lot of comfort to have this you know attention from people and friends immediately.

[00:16:35] So so I felt very committed and then all the people you know that go out in service all the time they’re role into it and that would be my outlet is going on service a few times a week. So I try to. I don’t remember if it was called Ishola pioneer when you were before you were baptized but I would try to do that and then when I was baptized I would auxillary pioneer and just that was my social life too. So I didn’t have any other viewpoints really from school or anything like that.

[00:17:03] Yeah. Oh something you touched on with homeschooling really struck me and I’ve always seen homeschooling you know parents who talk about doing it as a way to protect their children. But what I never really realized is so as that child because they have essentially a major life that much more closed off now when you go to things like the meetings or out in field service to knock on doors like those things now carry even more. What. No wait.

[00:17:37] They’re more special because that’s the only place you’re going to get any socializing. Yes I guess I hadn’t really thought about it from that perspective. Not only are they isolating you but in doing so they are propping up or making bigger these other aspects of life that they want you to see because those are the only things that have any you know provide any stimulus to your life.

[00:18:04] Yes. And then. And then another odd part of it is my stepdad who he wasn’t really all the way and so he wouldn’t let me go out in service every day I would have gone everyday if I thought of just you know to get out the house. Yeah but he would only let me go like twice a week. So of course with a kid that makes you want to do it more you know like Oh when I’m older I’m gonna pioneer you know because now I’m not allowed to but when I’m allowed to go out all the time. So so funny what they say no to a kid makes them want to do it.

[00:18:36] Oh yeah yeah. And usually you know usually when that spoken that’s spoken in talk context you know don’t tell your daughter not to date that guy because of course she’s going to want to date that guy right. You know that bad boy or whatever.

[00:18:50] Once it hits it’s field service failed. With my. That was my exciting time.

[00:18:56] Also during that time like I was trying to get well that was like at 14 I got baptized and we lived in Massachusetts and I really had the goal in mind of marrying this 10 year old that I had met Jason.

[00:19:11] I his family was all in. They seemed so nice and they had it all together and I knew I had to be very spiritual to you know be able to marry him. So that was one of the things at the forefront of my mind at all times is like I have to be good enough to win. You know Jehovah’s Witness boy with an older dad and all this.

[00:19:33] So you know you had to really keep your standards up because there were a lot of spiritual girls that would be in this path. And I had to be on that level. Yes.

[00:19:44] And and I would pray all the time like you know I wasn’t really seeing my real dad Marge because you know he wasn’t a Jehovah’s Witness. You tried to get us to celebrate holidays.

[00:19:55] You know the nerve of him he would still send us presents like Christmas presents doesn’t he know we don’t celebrate. You know of course I’d be happy to get presents but also like you know I have to have that attitude of like he’s just not respecting me. But having and then having a step dad that wasn’t my first Jehova was like my real dad to me you know. So I would I would sometimes pray like all day just like almost like you know your own little phone call to someone who will listen. And I can’t even imagine like the stuff I used to say could reflect his teenage rantings fires while I’m doing laundry. Please help me to be loving to my family and not mind you know doing this I want to be a good daughter and I mean it was just a constant thing.

[00:20:43] So being lonely and homeschooled and all that made me really you know make Jehovah something different in my mind than even what the average Jehovah’s Witness does. Right.

[00:20:56] But also you were you were super sincere. You can see through all of this that you you really believe this. This was it for you. Yes absolutely. And you were making plans. You know early on to get married and you know all these things that have this this cohesive family where everybody was a witness and. Yes. Yeah. So then how did things progressed as you went through your teenage years into young adulthood. How did things go well.

[00:21:26] So I ended up moving to Ohio where Jason lived.

[00:21:31] And I became a nanny for a family that went to fall lived with them and I started like officially dating Jason I think we were 17 very very young.

[00:21:42] We got engaged when he was still in school which is kind of hilarious. I think we dated a year and then we got married. I think we were 19. It’s so hard to remember ages. It’s it’s bizarre trying to think back and I don’t remember the exact year but I’m pretty sure we were both just 19 when we got married. So you know I I set my goals and I attain them.

[00:22:09] And I was so excited to finally have this you know wonderful family life and everything that I thought it was going to be as a Jehovah’s Witness and people would always call him little Jesus like he was always so nice to everybody.

[00:22:23] Yes yes yes he was that in the creation of a small hall so you know all of our friends around our age were really close. It was a fun group we really liked hanging out together that was like what I would say is the fun times my youth you know I had more freedom than I’d ever had being a nanny and had a car and got to go to Jason’s family on the weekends and stuff like that. So that that time period seemed like like I don’t know like life was going good it was going where I should go. And then after we got married of course we stopped hanging out with people like when you don’t need a chaperone everywhere you go. You don’t have as many friends being out and everybody else is doing their own thing with getting married and stuff like that. Like I think within two years almost every young person in our age was married at that kingdom hall. And I started seeing like the things that weren’t so good. Like we go to the meeting and I had.

[00:23:25] Step by myself most of the time because he had you know the sound to do or the books or the territories or you know whatever responsibilities it have.

[00:23:35] And sometimes I would look around for him and I couldn’t even find him. And I found out he would like hide in the bathroom stall like he was so he had so much pressure on him all his life to be this perfect that he he was really stressed out. And I did not see that after assemblies like during the whole assembly he would get really down on himself and feel like we weren’t doing enough. We weren’t doing enough personal study we weren’t doing enough service and you know it was you it was a reason not to. Yes. Yes. It was not what I had envisioned and we were very poor because he worked for his family and you know there just a lot of the brothers work for them and there wasn’t a lot of money. So he actually was able to get a job with my stepdad doing the oil and gas. At that time most cell phones with cell phone land leasing.

[00:24:30] So we moved from Ohio to Texas which was like a shock to everybody.

[00:24:36] You know Jason was a ministerial servant and moving up the ladder there and it’s very upsetting for his mother.

[00:24:42] And you know just it was a big upset and I think people really thought he made a big mistake with me because you know otherwise he wouldn’t have done this.

[00:24:53] You know I was we were definitely felt very judged at that time.

[00:24:57] But you’re taking little Jesus away.

[00:25:00] Now know a lot of nerve and he has a lot of family there around that area. So you know there was a lot of people. So we ended up moving and going to a new hall and that was the first time in his life he’d ever gone to a new hall. And it was a big hall in Texas with a few congregations there and you know instead of like I think our hall in Ohio like 70 people and this one had probably like 230. And you know we weren’t love bombed you know we were already in it. And people weren’t that friendly and it was really bizarre to him I had seen that already with moving around that not all halls are the same and same love and stuff but I think it really affected them and not being a ministerial servant like he he had a hard time just sitting there at the meetings like hello. That’s what I’ve been doing all my life it’s not so fun listening to the same thing over and over. But but but it really was a struggle for him. So we ended up settling in Oklahoma. He my dad had some work there and then we ended up he quit working for my dad and started a business with another brother so we could just stay put.

[00:26:13] And he did quickly you know make him a sterile servant again there and you know started working toward that goal again and felt better about himself. But still the constant you know depression and pressure of not feeling good enough. And I also felt like we never really could communicate because.

[00:26:32] I’m a very open person and you know you marry someone they’re supposed to be your best friend. So I would like confessed to him things like from when I was a kid things that I would do like sometimes. Me and my sisters would just yell crosswords at each other just for fun. Like yeah I buy and.

[00:26:52] And you would just be like like look at me like oh my gosh I was like did you ever do I mean really. No. No. And then like.

[00:27:03] All situations would come up and I try to talk to him and he’d get out the bound volumes to you know give me counsel and oh it would be so annoying to me because it’s not being real. Like like our life it was either silence or mock assembly part. It seemed like like I was supposed to be like Oh well thank you. Chilling me this dear husband you know. And so it felt like very not real. So that was a struggle but you know the end is coming. It really doesn’t matter who you marry soon you’re going to look like Adam and Eve and be perfect so you just hang in there and soon everything will be fine. You know that was kind of what I was betting on at that time just hanging in there.

[00:27:49] Yeah I can’t say I kind of feel for him because it seems like he was never allowed to be himself. I mean now. OK. None of us were in the cold. Yeah. All of us to varying degrees had to stifle who we were. But it really sounds like his life kind of was you know like an assembly part and that he just you know did the Watchtower thing always with death you know like you were saying you know you wanted to be real. And it almost sounds like you didn’t have anything else. He was just like a little robot which is very sad. It is. Yeah. I can identify with some of that myself a little bit still. I always struggled with. I would always beat myself up for cussing. That was a big thing that I struggle with as a kid. But I knew better than to do it around my parents or at the meetings. But you know I always struggle with that. But you see it seems like he just he just bodied on a level that was yeah. Just just very very sad. I hope I don’t know what the situation is right now but I hope someday he finds who he is.

[00:29:08] Because if I do to have and we’ll go and do it more as the story goes on because you know we had a child together so you know I still do know what his life is like and you know yeah. And it’s definitely just stifling emotionally and every other way having that pressure on you at all times and I’ve found it is.

[00:29:31] And I found like so much was just fake like one time we went to the meeting and it was all icy and staffin and I had my heels on and stuff but he jumped out of the car and I got out and I was like whoa. And he ran to help other sisters. Because. When he. Supposedly I flipped and I was so irritated you know. But it was like I don’t know who he was knifed as nice to me as he was to everybody else. And even when we were divorced still you know somewhat nice to me like he couldn’t really. He was never real but it did always seem like he was exactly though exactly what the cult told him to be like. Some people said well you guys were extreme like I was extreme also when I was in but I did not take anything further than what they told us to do. You know. Yeah. He was the perfect good Jehovah’s Witness. And he wasn’t taking things too far as far as what we were told to do.

[00:30:30] He just did what he got to do. You know got him hiding in a bathroom because he’s under so much pressure he’s freaking out depressed and yet there’s hardly any time to do anything.

[00:30:41] You go to work come home eat dinner or work. And then he’d have to like prepare for the meeting and then after the meeting come home and count the money and do that. I mean he always had all his life was consumed by stuff they were having him do and he would always say yes. So it was it was very consuming. But he loved he loved it because you know like I remember you said in your story and me saying like that’s where you got all your self-esteem. Yeah. So without that he did not even know how to be.

[00:31:17] Do you only exist in the eyes of others. Yeah in the eyes of the cold. So you can’t you can’t risk having cursing fights with no siblings because if you were to get caught and you were home to get in trouble then you could lose your entire identity. And that’s terrifying.

[00:31:39] It is. And one other story that was just hilarious like me and my little sister she was very like me just roll like boisterous and to me to me funny some people don’t find us funny but we do. But one time we were talking and we were like What is the worst thing somebody ever called you and like you know Kobe like the B word or something like that. And Jason was like one time when I was 13 my mom called me a little jerk and we just started. Like who. Like that’s.

[00:32:18] A bad thing.

[00:32:19] And he was like almost in tears and so so because of this you know what he viewed marriage to be and how I would treat him and respect him and all that. And I was more like real. I think I was a very big disappointment to him. And I made him cry a few times just by being myself being funny not taking things so serious. But yeah on the like. The bottom line is I really do feel for him. I really do hope that someday he finds the kind of freedom in life to be himself.

[00:32:52] I do know that dude needs a hug. Yes this is something real. That’s that’s yes that’s very very very sad. So how did things you know progressed.

[00:33:05] You know I’m gay. Well this is where it gets interesting.

[00:33:09] So it actually had a couple miscarriages and you know been being in the call all the meetings and all that. It was very lonely and boring. And he was always you know at the sound booth or stuff I didn’t even have him to sit by with the meeting. So I thought you know I would be so nice have a baby and when when I was younger and my little sister was a baby I used to walk around the conventions and I used to pretend people would think she was my kid which you know would be ridiculous because I was eleven but it was fun to have that kind of attention and the little baby to hang out with. So I finally got pregnant and Oklahoma with my daughter. And I was so excited.

[00:33:52] I was worried about Miss caring but this one went along fine and my mom and had home births and my sister at home births and we we didn’t have insurance and felt like a home birth would be a good way to go. So we found a midwife in the phone Volcan started going to her and she was a little odd which is pretty normal for you know some midwives to be a little Bentley holistic or you know just a little bit weird. She had like six kids. And you know what. She was just our midwife so we went with her and we told her about being Jehovah’s Witnesses and how we would take blood if that became an issue and she said that was fine and everything and everything was going along okay.

[00:34:35] And I was like seven months. I went to our office and she was feeling my abdomen and she said you know the baby’s not head down yet and we kind of expect that.

[00:34:45] But I can feel her head over on the side and let me see oh your baby doesn’t have a skull like what. And she she was like Yeah I don’t feel schol but don’t worry they can live a few hours. They’re not that ugly. Let me show you in this book. And I was just like oh yeah what it’s like I was immediately like just totally freaked out crying. I laughed at my mom followed me. She was with me at that appointment. We got in the car she said let’s just go and get an ultrasound and figure something out.

[00:35:22] She called around and got an ultrasound place to open that night and just meet us there. I was you know hysterical and a mess. And we went to the ultrasound. Found out having a girl and she was fine and her head was down. So it was very bizarre that you would even say that. So yeah just weird. So I was like I’m not going back to her. She emailed a few times and I told her no I not going back she goes You won’t get your money back I don’t care. We’re not coming back to you. And she’d also an odd thing is she would tell me like because I was smiling like we might have to induce which was really weird because you don’t do so with a home birth. You don’t you know that’s dangerous. So my mom always thought that was weird so so I ended up having to try to find another midwife and I did. And we told her the story of what happened and she goes oh well she is that lady we’re going to she’s a Wiccan she’s a witch. And that sent shivers up my spine like I still I don’t know for a fact but I feel like she was going to try to take the baby. I feel like she she had something about us being Jehovah’s Witnesses and was thinking she would because she had mentioned she couldn’t get pregnant. She really wanted more babies. I don’t know. It was very strange. I still don’t know the real answer or if that was going to happen but that’s how it made me feel like regardless of whether she was a Wiccan or not.

[00:36:51] There was something wrong there.

[00:36:53] Yeah there is something there every year. Yeah. And I have nothing against Wicken or you know different types of spirituality. But at that time it’s just like you know it seems like the opposite of Jehovah’s Witnesses would be that. And and it did seem like something was off. So so that was very stressful and I ended up finding the new midwife. But but the day I went into labor her assistant came in I never met her and she’s the one who like was there when she was first checking so it just everything was very stressful because it was uncomfortable and my Labor ended up being over 24 hours. Her head was turned the wrong way so it was back Labor. I did not sleep. It was basically it was traumatic. And no drugs. You know I had her at home.

[00:37:41] So when she finally you know when she finally came out and they put her on my lap I was I don’t even I can’t even explain like how I feel. I was I was like out of my mind at that point. And I was just like what do I do with it. I didn’t even have that. Like oh my gosh my baby I was just so like I was like just get it out.

[00:38:02] You know it was very very traumatic. And then she ended up being a very stressed out baby probably from everything that I had gone through. Oh an important fact is during that time it was an 89 98 sorry 98 that is when they had a little snippet in the Watchtower about well it appears that the generation of 1914 that would know by no means pass away. We have new light on that and new understanding. We can’t say that that’s the generation that won’t pass away and that people living then will still be alive.

[00:38:39] You know they had a little part and I remember sitting at the meeting and asking Jason like does this mean like you know people like my great grandma will still be alive. Is that what they’re saying. Yeah yeah. And almost like went over everybody’s head I felt. But I thought what. You know that was what I was taught from the get go I was worried the whole time I was pregnant that Armageddon would come and I would have to hike up mountains.

[00:39:02] Being pregnant you know what I mean like that with Saddam there to pretty slightly dead. They really did.

[00:39:10] And that’s the thing we’ve always used as a prophecy to pinpoint when the end is going to come.

[00:39:19] Mary how can you really say that we’re not saying that why.

[00:39:23] But that hit me I think really hard and I didn’t even know it so. So after the traumatic birth and everything. She also had Kaleck from 7 to 11 every night she would scream the pressure right from the get go bring her to a convention a week later which I did. She needs to be out in service from the get go you know Bible Training. There’s not too soon a time to start that. And it was I felt so much pressure. And I also did not want to take her own service. And I started worrying that you know like she was so little and fragile like she could die. Anything could happen you know babies you know they can just fall and die. And like I was I didn’t want to take her out in the car and and I just felt very stressed out and I wasn’t sleeping at all because she was you know high strung and crying a lot. And I started this was postpartum depression which I did not know. I started feeling like something was wrong with me. I was not good enough for some reason I just did not feel like being a Jehovah’s Witness anymore. I did not feel like having this pressure on me anymore. I could not handle it. But she would be better off without me because having a mother like that like that that is just terrible for her to have a mother like that you know to have someone who doesn’t want to commit to Jehovah and do everything they’re supposed to do. So I mean thinking back to that time like it was just I was I was crazy I would say I just lost it like I was not myself. I could not sit still and watch a movie. I could not read a book. My mind was racing all the time. And now I realize like I was going through like a manic episode.

[00:41:17] Oh is potentially ignorant question coming out. I have to admit I don’t know a lot about postpartum depression. And obviously people can can experience that who were never Jehovah’s Witnesses.

[00:41:35] But yes I think that I just wanted to ask do you think that because you keep mentioning this pressure to to be this good witness do you think that it was at least partially brought on by the fact that you were one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and had this this huge weight of you know bringing a life into this world that is going to end any day now and having to you know essentially not literally but baptize this little baby into this. This thing that was so big it required so much you know do you think that that added pressure maybe was what triggered it. Or is that not how it works.

[00:42:28] Well from what I understand now like a lot of times traumatic births what pushed somebody into it and it’s it’s really a lot about hormones a lot of her. Oh yeah a lot of people go through it for various reasons but for sure the whole stress of being a perfect Jehovah’s Witness to be a perfect mom was always there. And that’s what led me to make the bad decisions that I made from that point on. So so that postpartum depression happened just because that can happen. But also I did not get help because I didn’t address the postpartum depression. It was I internalized it all as just being a bad witness. Like not being good enough and I hadn’t done anything bad but because I felt in my own heart and mind something was different that that is what I attribute it everything to. Not. Not that you know that I was going through something medically you know.

[00:43:31] Yes yes. Yeah. Oh yeah. Back to being a witness because that dominates everything in her entire life you know.

[00:43:38] Yes yes so.

[00:43:42] So I was going through that and I fell out of my mind. And I knew Jason and my daughter they would be better off without me. Like I almost was suicidal but I didn’t feel right about that. And I just felt like I couldn’t be a Jehovah’s Witness again. And because I knew the rules like I’m such a rule follower that I did it to a T. I knew that you would have to commit adultery to be able to be free from your marriage. So I did that which is embarrassing and shameful to admit. But it was seriously for the purpose of like I wasn’t trying to find a boyfriend or anything but I started talking to someone on the evil wicked computer internet in hell back then it was like such warnings. You know and I remember just getting a little ping at night and like talking to someone telling me you know my struggle and them being compassionate. And so it was not easy to find somebody to you know just basically get me out of the situation and so would be free to remarry. And yeah.

[00:44:54] So I will live it. Let me acknowledge that. If you’ve already you know I know you say you’re embarrassed and you feel ashamed to say this but what was it that you found online when you talk to that person was that you found someone new. Yes you did break a rule. But you found someone who actually listened to you and gave you some emotional support in a situation. You know postpartum depression is is overwhelming for any woman who experiences it. But when you experience it in a culture where there is very little emotional health. You know I mean it sounds like you know your husband probably wasn’t able to give you much. Not at all. It doesn’t sound like he sounded like he was a desert emotionally and you know you’re in a an organization that you didn’t ask you. How they handled you know. I know I’ve heard stories let’s just say of women I mean my mom even had a miscarriage or two in the organization. And the way that some people in the congregation address that is just horrific. Like you know what should you be sad. You know you’ve got the hope in all this stuff. So they’re really emotionally invalidating you. So you know I can only imagine in that in that circumstance you know what you did was a very human thing to do. It’s not something to destroy yourself over because it’s it’s an awful place. You didn’t ask to be put in that position. You didn’t ask to have postpartum depression. You didn’t ask you know for this traumatic birth you know these are just things that happened. And you know sometimes things in life happen and don’t have to be. Unfortunately we came from a society where everything was moralized. Yes everything was you’re a bad person which is what shame is you know shame guilt as I did a bad thing. Shame is I’m a bad person. And you know what you did. You know obviously you get to feel how you feel. You know if you don’t feel good about it that’s fine. But you know for yourself. But I just I just wanted to put it out there that you know what you did was a very human thing you know. And one of the things that I had to learn you know when I left was to be able to have compassion for myself for being a human being. And you know not always making the 100 percent perfect decision according to their rules from the environment that we grew up in. So yes I just I was I hope you can hear that.

[00:47:42] I do. I really really do.

[00:47:44] And I really I look back and I don’t A. I don’t blame myself but I do take accountability. You know what. Yeah right. Yeah yeah but the ability for what you do. Right yeah. Yes.

[00:47:54] Yeah that’s right.

[00:47:55] But like I’ve told you some of my friends about this and they’re they’re cracked up like yours that Gerald Ford you had to get out the way they said.

[00:48:05] True for all of us like the self-fulfilling prophecies the self-fulfilling self-destruction like all of that we do to ourselves because that’s what they said. They said you would meet somebody on the internet if you spend time on the big bad internet.

[00:48:20] And that’s how most people cheat on their spouse. So I had a handbook of how to do it.

[00:48:26] You know what I mean I know that’s going to happen because they know they produce human beings without any emotional intelligence or support or celebrity or anything like that. They know what they produce and they know what the outcomes are going to be. You know that’s why they tell you not to read apostate literature because they know that they’re full of it and if you read it that you would see it. So yes you know it’s it’s they do set those things out very well.

[00:48:56] Yes. Yes. And immediately like immediately I told my husband well I cheated on you. So now you’re free to remarry. And you know he was he was upset and like that day. You know like I just being really mattered. And I just thought you know I I just thought well good now you know you’re free. I did it. I took I took the bullet on this one. So find somebody good and marry them. You know I really just felt like that gets me out of the picture so that you guys can be OK. And I remember I even asked my mother to adopt my daughter. She was only 8 months old.

[00:49:39] Like you know it was just like thinking back this is insanity.

[00:49:44] Like I would never behave like that under normal circumstances. But but yeah all the pressure of that. So then so then I moved out and I was still getting my daughter.

[00:49:55] Like when he went to work but very quickly that changed and he started taking her to other witnesses who were told not to let me see her. So immediately she was taken from me my mom was totally supportive and that my mom thought I needed to talk to a therapist.

[00:50:11] But of course a Jehovah’s Witness therapist. So this was in Oklahoma. She lived in Arizona and she flew me out to Loflin Nevada which is near where she lived and had this Jehovah’s Witness therapist meet with me. Now she wouldn’t talk to me because I was bad at that point. And she like dropped me off at this hotel stay with me you’re my mom.

[00:50:35] Oh ok yeah. So she was Sherman. She was helping already. Okay.

[00:50:40] So during this time like I’m stuck at a hotel a gambling hotel casino and Loflin Nevada.

[00:50:48] And these are things I’d never seen before.

[00:50:51] So I did a little gambling you know I did like all these I’m bad now right. So I might as well do bad things then. And I got a little tattoo of sun moon and stars because overall even with all this craziness I felt freedom for the first time in my life like the sun moon and stars had all been handed to me like it did have a meaning to me. Even that soon I still felt so guilty so bad and so worthy of destruction and death. But but there was something about it that just felt so right to so.

[00:51:30] So I talked to the therapist basically he saw that I had a lot of issues with my mother because she was always very you know controlling and she was the one that I tried to please all my life but I could never please her. There she was. She’s that type of mom and. And.

[00:51:48] My ex came with the baby or my husband at the time came with the baby and he actually said to me like I showed him my tattoo. Like I’m very transparent GOP. I showed him my tattoo and he actually said. Well I’m going to kiss you there someday when you come back to Jehovah. And I said nope nope I’m not like. That wasn’t even an option I didn’t want him to have hope. It was it was such a bizarre place to be mentally like I felt like I was fighting for my own life. You know like I found a taste of freedom and that’s what I wanted. And. I was it was very strange. So I told my mom wait nope I’m not going back. Why she thought this would happen. I would just go back and it would just be sex just like that. And so what she did was left to me in Loflin Nevada by myself wife. No I had like I don’t even know if I had 20 Bob. I don’t even know she went home to Arizona. I had to fly out and Vegas an hour and a half away to get back to Oklahoma where I had a job and she abandoned me there. She did not care what happened to me. If I died I died. I mean it was like such awful feeling like I felt truly abandoned and unloved and uncared about in the biggest way. So I ended up calling a cab company and I told them pretty much what happened and I’m stock and I only have 20 dollars and they ended up getting somebody off duty to come pick me up which was really scary because it was a man and I felt like he was going to rape me.

[00:53:30] You know what I mean you just think those bad things are always happening.

[00:53:34] Like I was you know it’s right from our ground zero holds a fear of the outsiders.

[00:53:42] So yes I I be raised and murdered. Of course. Yeah. And he picked me up early so we had like two hours in Vegas and like I had to go the car with him and go in a casino. I was really scared. And I I didn’t even hardly talk I was just like kind of hovering in the corner of his car. I’m sure he could tell I something’s wrong. And he did not do anything to me. You know he did take me back to the airport and I did make it. But that always will hurt when I think about it like that my mom really did not care what happened to me.

[00:54:17] I was abandoned in Loflin Nevada with nothing would that would hurt anybody that’s awful. Yeah that and that sets the tone pretty much for how you’re treated once you’re shot and you know you’re just thrown away like common trash. Yeah you and I I wrote a disassociation letter I confessed everything that I did.

[00:54:38] And turned it on. And a few times the elders came and tried to talk to me and I just wouldn’t talk to them. I knew that they would ask no personal questions and stuff then. Now I know how bad it really is when they do that. But I just felt like I don’t want to be one so I’m not going to talk to them.

[00:54:54] They’re probably just been further traumatizing.

[00:54:57] Yes I can see that now. I didn’t. I definitely had good instincts to avoid that whole year. So. So I of course everything went downhill like I had immature roommates that this. This boy this guy that I had slept with like knew like they were all I was 24 and they were all like 1920. Like recently out of high school and like this group and like they I was almost like I was very interesting to them because I was 24 with a child.

[00:55:30] And getting divorced yet I was so immature as far as just experience goes or knowing anything like like I mean I was I was very they loved like asking me things basically like laughing at me because I was so unaware of things. But you know as a little bit it was like two months of high school that I never got. Right there. That’s what I hope like I was in that fell apart. You know the roommates weren’t responsible and all this stuff and I ended up calling my real dad and asking him if I could move in with him and he said yes so I moved to Kansas which wasn’t too far. And Jason ended up filing for divorce. And just full custody and I didn’t find anything. I just went and signed it like I had no fight for myself. You know I knew I was unworthy and that’s it. And I’m just getting what I deserve. So I signed her over to Hamen. That was it. And he ended up moving back to Ohio with his family. So. So. The. Reality like my whole manic. Part kind of started dwindling like reality was. And I I only can think of how I felt like I was in a movie like I felt like everything was not real. Like nothing I counted. Nothing was real. Nothing mattered because we’re all going to die.

[00:57:00] And I felt like I knew we were all going to be killed any day now. But I couldn’t even help these people anymore. I couldn’t explain it to them. Like what am I supposed to say like you should be a Jehovah’s Witness. But I’m not being a Jehovah’s Witness. But we’re all gonna die. And I was driving to work one day and I heard.

[00:57:16] Ad on the radio for a place that was called Charter as a charter mental hospital and they said you know you can come here and you know if you need help we’re here for you and I just drove straight there and I went in the waiting room and I heard them talking on the phone to someone like yes we have her here. We’ll hold her here. I thought they were talking to my dad about me immediately like they could just see I was crazy but it wasn’t that. So I met with somebody. I told them everything I did like. I felt so much guilt. That’s not even funny. I’m a whore I’m a harlot I’m I’m following Satan. I just like everything I was told I was. That’s what I believed. You know and I’m as good as dead.

[00:58:01] And they referred me to another therapist that I went to an you know therapist don’t usually have a good hold on. You know leaving a religion like that. So I felt like she gave me some good advice. But you know not not exactly what I needed but I don’t know that anybody could like it’s a journey that you have to go on and I think that’s why this ex Jehovah’s Witness community is so important because this is what I needed. You know having people like us talking you through and telling you it’s going to be OK and you’re not crazy but. But that therapist did talk to Jason and said I think what’s wrong with her. She is mourning for her daughter like she needs to see her daughter at that point he hadn’t let me see. So. So he agreed and I was able to get her and she was 2 at the time and just it was just so nice.

[00:59:00] Like she was awesome. I felt really bonded you know at that at that time like I was over all the depression and all that and I just I just could not see living without her anymore.

[00:59:14] You know I was just I was just so like see like it’s almost like waking up and finding Oh I just did all this and here I am you know and I had a boyfriend at the time that was like you know not the best choice because when you’re in that kind of position you’re not you’re not really able to make good choices.

[00:59:37] But you know a decent person you know just a typical boyfriend and I had her for a couple weeks and she went back and then six months later I went to see her in Ohio and I actually called my ex and I said OK I’m willing to come back. I don’t believe it. I don’t believe but I’m going to. I would come back be a drover’s witness and just you know Mario again. So I can have my daughter. And he said I wish you’d told me this before because now I’m engaged. And it’s like it was a year and a half later he was already engaged. And I said to who and he said this girl she was 17. I was like Are you kidding me. You haven’t learned. And there are things that he had told me like. Finally at the end trying to like open up finally that that I was just like it was just too late for me at that time and I said Does she know that. Yes she knows everything about me. Like I just felt just like I don’t I don’t I can’t even explain exactly how I felt like a relief on the one hand because at least I was willing to go back you know like it was in his hands now. But also that. OK. Now there’s no hope in that part. Just Don an so and so he did Mary that girl and she became my daughter step mom right then. Right. You know. So. So as time went on I I got her whenever I could.

[01:01:18] And I still felt bad I was starting to like realize like this life is real and trying to like live life like you need to live to be successful and stuff but it’s very hard when you have no education and no way to get like decent jobs or anything. And.

[01:01:35] I ended up living in Texas with another ex Jehovah’s Witness friend of mine.

[01:01:40] She let me move in with her and her family. And she had been and she had a really rough time of it too. So we were both like this mess thought these messed up extro was one this is it still felt guilty though it wasn’t. We really couldn’t help each other through it at that time. But you know she she did help me out a lot at that time to to move to Texas and then. I ended up meeting my husband now. And I was like I would tell on like my story and stuff. And he could tell from the way I talk like I was still a Jehovah’s Witness you’d be like you’re still Jehovah’s Witness. I’m like No I’m not like I am just Fallah so I’m certain. Yeah I was like I am anything but Jehovah’s Witness. Like trust me. Like that’s why nobody will talk to me.

[01:02:28] And he thought like my anxiety like if a fighter jets would go over I would be like oh my gosh it’s Armageddon.

[01:02:38] It’s starting like I would really feel like that at any time. I still felt like the end was coming any day now. And I ended up we got married and I got pregnant with my second daughter and I was really happy.

[01:02:54] But of course that makes you think about you know what if they’re right. And now I’m bringing another life into this. And my mother ended up coming to visit when she was like four weeks old and I was so excited like like I told my husband like you know she won’t come. She’ll never talk to me. She won’t see her. But she did. And I was like oh my gosh my mom’s coming.

[01:03:18] I couldn’t wait to see here and I cooked for her and painted her toenails like I really catered to her. That’s what I always did and she said to me was holding my baby trying to feed her. She said you know you better come back to Jehovah or you and your baby and your husband are gonna die. And I’m going to be in the paradise with your other daughter. And I just started bawling. I was hysterical you know as it was so it was such an awful thing to say to somebody you know like the whole both sides of it like rubbing it in that she’s going to live forever with my other kid and we’re all going to be dead.

[01:04:00] And like that’s so heartless that is have no boundaries.

[01:04:04] No. And she or she had also told me she would have stoned me to death if we were in Bible times. So those kinds of things coming from your mom are very damaging.

[01:04:14] So did you know that there was actually a watchtower article I think and I don’t remember what decade it was from but they were lamenting in there that they couldn’t kill people more.

[01:04:29] Oh my God you know. Well you know we can show them. But if if this was barbel times we could have stoned to death man. The good old days. If only we could go back and be barbaric. You know what.

[01:04:43] I cannot believe your mom said that about stoning. That is. Wow.

[01:04:48] It’s hurtful. You know I still believe it. It really cuts Joe the core even more because you are still you’re physically out mentally in.

[01:04:58] Yes. I didn’t know that term but that’s exactly what I was. So so my husband came home from work about me crying in the bathroom and he he luckily had enough like he was raised I think like lucerne or Methodist Methodist I believe like not too extreme but his first wife was an extreme Baptist. And so for a while in his life he was like going to church all the time teaching Bible studies until he saw the hypocrisy in that particular church you know and he backed away. But he knew enough about the Bible that he told my mom you know you can’t say that to her like what the bible says love love is the greatest thing and you need to guard your hearts and doesn’t. And my mom screamed at him no way. And I mean it was just it was insane. And he made her leave. And that was the last time that I really was around my mother. That was the last time. So she left a few magazine stuff and I told my husband. I said well we’re going to have to be Jehovah’s Witnesses. And he said OK let’s study then let’s do some research. Which was the best thing he could have done. You know he knew there was no way you were ever being Jehovah’s Witnesses but he knew that I had to see it. So I started Ahmadabad. Yes. Smart man. So I start off with the magazines or the publications she laughed like the weirdest thing happened. Like when I read it it was like like a tune in my head. You know the way they talk and the way they write it’s different than anything else even Vitus even typing the type of the type of print is different.

[01:06:45] So you might write that nobody talks like that.

[01:06:50] You know here’s my mom as a kid I was like How are kids supposed to identify with this like nobody talks like this. No one would speak to another human being like this. They have their own style yes. And that tune in your head. Wow. So it makes must’ve made you feel at home to kind of get to it.

[01:07:08] Exactly it was like almost like a snake tamer you know playing the flute like I just I mean it really made me feel almost like in a weird way like it was very strange like I recognize that and myself immediately. And he’s like my husband was like why don’t we just use the bible because the Bible is what you need to you know show me and not these publications. Why do you need that. And I thought well how are we going to understand without the you know like the whole thing. Javas want us to say you’re not someone to show me like I’m too dumb to understand. So he said let’s just do the bible on us. OK. I was like Well one thing clearly that the Bible talks about is the dead are conscious of nothing at all and everybody else believes you know that everybody goes to heaven or hell and he is OK where does it say that. And I. Found it and then he’s like okay read around it and it was amazing that. That whole scripture the whole thing is talking about everything under the sun is vanity and it’s really about what it would be like if there was no God and the person who wrote it was like in a depression. It also said money is everything and wine makes the heart Mary and it was really like Oh so that’s not really what it’s talking about and that was eye opening you know that that little part was interesting to me and then I remember there were a few other things I said well the Bible says this and he says where and I.

[01:08:38] Locked

[01:08:39] and locked and locked and locked.

[01:08:42] And

[01:08:43] it didn’t say it anywhere. Yet it was something that we were taught as fact. You

[01:08:48] know what I mean. Oh I know what you mean. Yes.

[01:08:51] The whole technique being you know they would always Jehovah’s Witnesses would always make fun of other religions and say well you know if they just read the context around these verses then they’d see that their teachings are false and they say yes you know it’s them who you know they have their own narrative and they are skewing verses and skewing contacts to fit the story that they wanted so you knowM. trickers I mean.

[01:09:19] Yes. So though that kind of got me started. So then I thought oh my gosh I don’t even know what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe which was really bizarre to me because I felt like I knew everything you know. So so I actually got on the evil Internet again and I looked up what do Jehovah’s Witnesses believe which was kind of we I thought this is weird I should know what they believe but then I started reading like the whole thing about believing that Jesus is the mediator only for the 144 thousand and where the Bible clearly says Jesus is the mediator for all mankind. And like I said this I was on my own and I was reading stuff and then reading why it was wrong and there were different websites that I think other like Christian religions put out at that time.

[01:10:07] There wasn’t a big extra hole was when this community at that time so it was really with people trying to help Jehovah’s Witnesses which was really nice and I was able to just find things out and like the whole thing about.

[01:10:20] I thought if Jesus was God I should just say it plainly in the Bible and then finding out that is what the Bible says. They just change it to a god like so many things and that like I remember one day it was like a light bulb went off on my head and I would say I literally felt the brainwashing leave that I don’t believe it. Oh my gosh. I don’t believe it anymore. I don’t believe it. And it was from then on that I was able to start healing you know. Then I. Was able to. It was an obsession for probably six months of research and research and research and research and research. And then I found like JTB fact Starcom which was awesome because I still didn’t want to read anything from bad people that had you know. Dead against Jehovah’s Witnesses apostates hippo like that kind of thing. So that was a great tool to have just stuff that they said from their own mouths.

[01:11:20] Because you benefactor’s all their own publications.

[01:11:24] Yes. So awesome resource. So actually my total naivete called my mom and I said Mom you’re not going to believe this like you’re not going to believe what I found you know I said Who is your mediator who is your mediator.

[01:11:38] And she said Jesus is my name. I said don’t. You see God. She said. You don’t come up with this on your own which you know she didn’t come up with the Jehovah’s Witness stuff on her own but you know what does that mean.

[01:11:52] That is but I’m fulfilling. Well you just got that from an apostate.

[01:11:57] So it doesn’t count if you go at it on your own then it would count right if you were a child. It’s not exactly.

[01:12:04] And she she ended up hanging up on me and I was like wow and then that’s when I tried to get my stepdad dad you know come in and help and he saw he was really tricked too. So that was out. But from that point on I was able to help my daughter by carefully planting seeds. Like I told her one time. And she was definitely taught you know like one time she said Mom you’re like Phaethon. And I said No I’m not like Satan. Like it’s a little too you know you’re a little too young to understand but somebody explain play I’m not like think me as you are. You know those things were put in her head she was taught to still respect me because I was her mother but definitely to write off anything I said because I’m like feet. You know it’s a really sad way to see your child view you and everything you say doesn’t have any real merit because you’re not saying what everybody around her is saying. But I was able to.

[01:13:06] Like I said you know what the Bible says like take life’s water free. Like what does that mean. Like what if I told you you can have a free popsicle. But then I told you you have to run around the house 20 times to get it. Would that still be free. No. You know I all those real basic things but I was hoping it would plant seeds in her head. And we had a very close great relationship like she always felt like she’s just like me and all the little crazy that a little wild and you know funny and just just really we are bonded and we had text almost every day and I feel like it was probably on my mind almost every hour of the day of how to help her to wake up you know like I couldn’t say anything outwardly against them because I would worry that she wouldn’t see me again. But I try to instill critical thinking like I had her Holper little sister with a school assignment of like let’s say you look at this Web site for a product on the market that you see all these ads for. And everybody says we love it it’s great it’s the best thing ever. You know it’s so worth the money but then if you look at another Web site with balanced views and people who use them bought it then you can see while it broke. After three days or the batteries run out or you know just like you can see all the coffee.

[01:14:35] Exactly. I try to do it in a subtle way.

[01:14:39] When I ask her like What if when you grow up you find out like everybody around you kept saying the sky is red. That’s what it’s called is called Red. But then you find out everybody else thinks it’s blue. You want to know or would you just want to keep thinking it’s red. And she said I’d want to know. So I was like You know I had like hopeful moments that you know hopefully she’s getting this in her brain. But as she got closer to 18 I used to tell everybody like she’s going to have to stop talking to me and they said no no no she wasn’t like you guys are so close. I can’t see that happening. Everybody everybody said that and it would really frustrate me because I know you know. You know I know that you know she was baptized at 11:00.

[01:15:23] So like I I knew she was you know she’s raised and I’m very very good Jehovah’s Witness family where so my ex ended up moving in with his wife’s family and a very very small house with just one bathroom. They are like an addition in the garage. And he worked. And pioneered so they don’t have much at all. And my daughter was like a office off the kitchen that didn’t even have real drywall. So they grew up in she grew up with a lot of sacrifices in this life for the next life. You know that’s their view. That’s the new systems coming in. And it was worth it. And I know they like her that mom talked about my grandparents had a trailer with the fake rock around the bottom you know and she said Oh I love that look like someday I’m going to have a house with all that rock around and I thought I know what she’s talking about she’s talking about her mansion in the new system. You know what I mean. Like that’s how they think of things. They’re they’re planning their future like we planned it by trying to save money and you know plan on what we can do as we retire and get older. They plan on their whole life being perfect in the future because Armageddon is coming.

[01:16:39] So I definitely knew how she was being raised and how it looked and she seeing her dad treat her like they do on assembly parts like she doesn’t like any kind of conflict or yelling she likes things to be very calm. But you know that’s how she grew up. OK. Honey let’s sit down and read this Bible verse so you know who is going to soon take care of all the bad people including your mother on the road. Joe have a good job. That’s what she grew up with and felt comfortable you know. And she has a lot of anxiety problems and stuff just like typical witnesses do. So yes we we all did with that. So and her first step mom has a lot of that too. So like I could see her like following along like you know everybody second it because everybody stressed out because having that weight on your shoulder any day now it’s Armageddon is coming in if you slip up at all. You’re going to be destroyed too. You can see the weight. It really takes some people you know sitting back and just wishing you could tell them you know you just want to help them.

[01:17:48] It’s hard to live life with the guillotine hanging over your head you know knowing that at any moment it might fall and chop your head off. You know there’s a horrible way to kind of unpleasant.

[01:17:59] Yeah yeah yeah. So.

[01:18:01] So the last time I had her like I was getting desperate. I was just like I can’t lose heart like I can imagine.

[01:18:10] Yeah I I I did not ever want to live my life without her. And I knew her sister too would suffer. And we have I have two step daughters that they wouldn’t get to see her. You know I knew how this would be so like I had my sister saying just go back just go back. And you know it’s easy like just go back and you know it’s not easy but you know I thought I will do anything for her. If I can just get it changed a name like I’m not doing anything bad my life is very immoral just a simple happy family life. So. I thought you know what the heck.

[01:18:47] And I’ll just get that label changed and then all I can fade out of it you know so. So I called the elders in this town and had them come over and met my husband and my daughter and my husband. You know it was definitely a. It wasn’t legitimate which I felt bad about. But then again this is for my daughter. I’m willing to do anything. So yeah why feel bad.

[01:19:14] They’re the ones holding your daughter hostage.

[01:19:17] Right. But in their view like I do worry about putting this out there because oh you tried to trick me.

[01:19:23] You know what I mean that they record eight million people around the world.

[01:19:28] Yeah that’s why I know if if this is heard by my daughter or her family right they will be you know free to listen to it. So I hope that means that they will understand what I’m saying.

[01:19:41] So they came over and they were very pleasant and my husband said like he didn’t want me bringing my daughter to the meetings. He said she said you guys would Shawn her. Nobody would talk to her. Is that true. Yes. Yes. Well we have to take our time and see if your wife is clean. I just thought oh my gosh I wish he could just punch them now because. Of saying that to a man that. They’re going to judge your wife if she’s Kaleem like oh my gosh. So they said though probably a couple of months and I heard differently but I thought well that’s not too bad. So I started going to meetings and it was so hard like like I mean even knowing what I was doing it was just listening to it and the way that they talk about other people and how everybody is clueless but that is just like oh my gosh it was so difficult but. But I did it. And I found out later like I was really too confident to myself like I should have been crying to them and you know begging them to forget.

[01:20:50] I should have acted we. But it was almost like I couldn’t be that and authentic. So I was like a confident woman I would sit in the front because the back seats were all taken so I would go in and sit in the front. Like I have nothing to hide. I should have done that shit is that in the back.

[01:21:06] But people came up to me and introduce themselves and say I’m disfellowshipped and they turn around and walk away like it was just like a very awkward situation like like it is for anybody trying to go back and I’m glad I knew that. You know this. This wasn’t really me because being treated like that is so hurtful by a bunch of strangers.

[01:21:30] So I did that for a couple months and then they were going to have a meeting with me on a Sunday. And I was like Okay this is it. And I hadn’t gone to every meeting because on some Thursday as my husband at school and I couldn’t bring my daughter she was too little will be alone.

[01:21:46] So I’d call in. One brother gave me the number to call in. And so I sat with three brothers and two were the ones that had visited me and then there was the bad cop you know the one brother that was like the bad cop. And they were questioning me and I mean trying to see how sincere I was like I was I didn’t really know the point of the questions. But the one brother said like you haven’t been to every meeting Thursday and I said Well you know some of the meetings I listen to at home and he’s like that number is not for you and he was pointing in my face.

[01:22:21] That is for Prue publishers only not for you. And I was like OK. He’s like not for you. I mean it’s just like you gave me a number. No. But like OK. Please. Yes. And they locked the door which is really uncomfortable. Three Men and Me and a locked room like is just like.

[01:22:41] And what they were okay so let me go out and that and the other room and then when I came back and they told me you know Jehovah may forgive you but sometimes it takes the brothers longer so we’re going to give you a few more months and then we’ll meet back. And at that time I was like. I mean I took everything I had to walk out calmly my lesson as I saw my husband as I. Lay dying. I tried I tried and I could not do it anymore so he did like leave a message with one of the guys and said you know you guys said it would be like two months like that. That’s a lie. And to treat somebody like that is is not correct. Like I will not she will not be coming back. I’m not going to allow her to you know.

[01:23:27] So I’d just like to say that you know let’s say that your daughter were to hear this and let’s say that your daughter is still one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and go and let’s say she stumbled upon this what love would it take.

[01:23:44] For her to go to a Baptist meeting for four months and pretend to be a Baptist or a Lutheran or a Catholic or a whatever you know that she would view as as not being correct. Well Sue to get a person back. I mean what you did. Is extraordinary to be able to suck it up and go into that environment when it’s not what you believe. And face the bullying abuse of those brothers all out of love for your daughter. I mean I tip my cap to you that that is. I just I don’t think I don’t know that I could step back into a kingdom hall for any thing man and let it take me.

[01:24:47] It took you back like I hadn’t been in like 20 years and it felt like yesterday. Like the same talks the same information the same repeat stuff except there was a lot of new lies. So all the truth had changed. Right. But it was still taught like the same boring self-righteous misinformation beamed out and you know what.

[01:25:13] That’s what it’s going to be. And yet you put yourself in that position because you love your daughter and you wanted to have the freedom to see and speak to her. And I mean just thinking about that just just how an organization can can keep that from you can force a young girl to to go against what might even be her own and I imagine is her own individual feelings deep down if she were to actually think about it underneath the indoctrination underneath the rules. And I was a good rule follower myself. But underneath the rules were my brother was disfellowshipped I still knew this. Not talking to him thing is not right. This hurts. It feels wrong. Emotionally it feels wrong. I’m only doing it to follow a rule and if it feels wrong you know that’s oftentimes your conscience your body’s way of telling you this isn’t the right thing to do and that’s why so many people in the organization are so full of anxiety and depression because emotionally underneath the indoctrination they know this isn’t right. This hurts. And if it hurts why is this the right thing to do. We all knew better. On some level our humanity are basic instinct was that this wasn’t right but we did it because we were following rules established by an organization that had their best interest at heart not necessarily ours. And so I just I I feel for you I mean to be able to go into that situation. I mean that’s kind of how the year you know those that have to be able to to sacrifice that much to be able to go into that you are willing to sacrifice who you were.

[01:27:22] Just to get back and you know I found you cannot do that. Like. Like you have to be yourself. So like all extro was witnesses who think of doing the same like you know maybe somewhat more success and I’ve heard of the moms going back to save their kids you know to get them out and some have been successful. But but even if I had gone back now like I think about how it would be like when she came to visit. I would have to pretend all the time like the way that they talk all the time like when she knew I wasn’t a witness. I didn’t have to pretend to be a witness so. So now would be like talking to my other daughter like oh look how beautiful this tree that your home made was like. It would just be so and authentic and like trying to push my other daughter to go to meetings and I would still have to go to keep up appearances like that. The bottom line is it would not work but I did still feel like I just had to try it because because if I didn’t I felt like I would regret it. I was just really grasping for straws. I was like this is becoming desperate.

[01:28:28] Yeah. Again it speaks to your sincerity. I mean you were doing something insincerely you know ingoing trying to go back as far as you know being a witness but you were so sincere in your feelings for your daughter that you were willing to try something that goes against the very grain of who you are. You know just for her.

[01:28:53] And then you think to heck they let child molesters back. Of course they’re not doing it for the right reasons they’re doing it to get their claws into more children. But that doesn’t prevent them.

[01:29:05] So it was like you know like for you know like me you know for all you know one of those elders who was like Jehovah may forgive but but we humans sometimes have a hard time it’s unforgiving. For all you know one of those elders who is sitting there in that room with you had molested a child. Yes point or had done any number of awful things and come back.

[01:29:30] But now he can lord that over you. Yes. You know and an interesting thing because.

[01:29:38] I was talking to her about this stuff when when I was going through it and I told her I did tell her what happened like this brother was very unkind like he was saying this and you know I was doing what I could do listening to me means she said well he probably just had a bad day like the brothers are imperfect.

[01:29:56] And then my ex husband said something about I wouldn’t worry too much about the brothers like they do what Jehovah wants them to do because I’ll tell you what I’ve been in a position where I really felt like I knew the right decision and then by golly Jehovah directed me another way and I thought well why is that what I think but Jehovah directed me and I thought that sure takes a lot I don’t even know the word for.

[01:30:27] But to think that Jehovah is really in your head directing you. Yeah I mean that is just so surreal to me.

[01:30:35] Well how can you tell me. Yes exactly. God speaks Dante. Yeah. Yeah yeah that’s that’s where he’s out right now.

[01:30:45] Yeah. That level of believing that he is a Jehovah’s hand is right on him.

[01:30:50] And it’s funny how it is yeah funny whatever. But yeah it’s ironic how Jehovah’s Witnesses love to point out the imperfections of other religions as the reasons that they’re not the truth. But yet when anything goes wrong in Jehovah’s Witnesses organization there oh well we’re just imperfect. Right. Wait a minute I thought imperfection was an excuse. Now all of a sudden it’s an excuse for the organization. It’s not an excuse for Lindy and why she slept with this person but or whatever you know. Right. Well it’s an excuse for them to cover up and do all kinds of horrific things that hurt so many more people than you as an individual ever hurt or you know anyone as an individual has Jehovah’s Witnesses have no problem using that label of imperfection to cover over so many sins that exist within the organization as just a cover up and different rules it really hurts them and everybody everybody who is not a Jehovah’s Witness.

[01:32:03] Absolutely yeah.

[01:32:06] So one good thing during this time she did come to visit me like we went to a meeting together which you know she saw me Sean first hand which you know is just she’s got a good thing for your kid to see I’m like you know. But. But that was the time where the Australian Royal Commission was going on.

[01:32:23] So my husband came home from work and he said hey I saw your you guys as religion in the news something about a royal commission. So I was like Oh really. So I looked it up and I said oh oh this is interesting. And I handed her the I’ve had like checked out and she like read over and you could tell was like uncomfortable immediately for her because it said you know over a thousand abusers and not one reported the police and she’s like oh and then handed it back and that was it. And then I also said you know you know dad her step dad has a membership to the Y and I wasn’t sure if I should go or not but I was doing some research and I found out Jehovah’s Witnesses were actually part of the United Nations so they could use the library for a while so it seems like they could do that I could go to the Y for the pool and she’s like No no no no no.

[01:33:22] They would never do that and it would never do that I said Well let me call your dad and ask. So I called him and I was like.

[01:33:29] Hi you know I was just looking up something I thought oh they were part of the United Nations for like 10 years and he’s like oh ho ho oh they’re.

[01:33:38] Yes well yeah. They thought well they need a membership to the research library and then they kind of thought oh well maybe this is such a good idea oh so they stopped being like Aha yeah.

[01:33:52] That they start being it like a week after they are formality expose them and then the last ten years.

[01:34:00] Yes so. So I told Sheila I’d like my daughter I told her. Well.

[01:34:06] Yeah your dad said that did happen and she you could tell it just like she was. What. So the thing is during that time I was able to show her things that normally I would not have been able to show her. So the like pretending to go back yeah. As far as that goes because once you start seeing cracks it’s impossible to not see them like how long it takes for those cracks to grow. I have no idea. But yeah at least she thought that so. So she went home after that trip. And I had a feeling this is the last time I’ll see her like I was in the summer and her birthday turning 18 was the following May but I had planned one more big trip that I was really going to just show her more because I was like now I have nothing to lose but she actually called me like a month before she turned 18 and just said she is crying like. Hey.

[01:35:01] Babe what’s up and she said Oh that’s like what’s wrong what’s wrong. I thought our cat died or something and I could talk to you anymore and I was like wait a minute wait a minute you know you’re not 18 yet you can still talk to me like we’re going on this one trip and you’re still going to do that.

[01:35:20] Like I was kind of like no no no no no no no like this can’t happen.

[01:35:25] And she was like No Bob you talk bad about the governing body and you can’t do that. And I said you know I I understand this and I knew this would happen because I know you don’t have a choice. Yes I do. It’s my choice.

[01:35:40] This is my choice not to talk to you anymore and I said well I’m going to call your dad because you’re still under 18. So he stopped to respect me and I’ll call you right back. And I called him and he like this. I felt like he really showed his true colors because before that I had called me I I’d talked him before and apologized for what I put him through. And for the way I went about things like explained about like I really had postpartum depression I just really Sari’s and I’m sorry to like I wasn’t perfect and I’m sorry too and you know it seemed like pretty good.

[01:36:12] And I thought well maybe he has a heart and he knows like this would be devastating to our child to lose her mother. Like devastating to a kid with Auriti anxiety problems and already issues they’re going through. That needs a mom you know and he said you had this coming. Lindi this is all on you. And I was like. And I said you know Jesus would never shine on anybody. And he said you need to dig a little deeper.

[01:36:42] And it was just it was just nasty. So says Lake it. And I lost it like hysterically crying. Shaking. I mean it was the worst day of my life. I put a post on Facebook like this day the day I dreaded it finally happened. Like she’ll never talk to me and her step grandma wrote me on Facebook messaged me and said.

[01:37:12] How awful I was. I don’t deserve Jehovah I deserved to be destroyed. How I’m trying to make this all about me and it’s about Chailly. I mean it was just out to a private message of course and I ended up writing her back calmly. Three days later when I calmed down and just said you know I understand she had no choice.

[01:37:35] This is the way she was taught to believe and she thinks she’s doing the right thing and she thinks it’s out of love for me. And I understand that and I hate that she’s going to. I kind of like a show like basically kindness and then she wrote back like you should really come back like it was a first.

[01:37:51] You’re not deserving. You should be killed. That’s like all you should come back. Like it was just so they’re so crazy what they’re thinking.

[01:37:59] Yes phrasing Absolutely.

[01:38:01] So it’s all about them and how they feel in the moment.

[01:38:05] Yes yes so much. I mean and how proud she was of her daughter and my ex and like. And it’s like in the real world like a man living with his in-laws and a little garage you know it’s not exactly something to be proud of. But in that world it is because they’ve given everything up for this cult. You know so I went through a lot of mental anguish.

[01:38:35] I actually talked to a few tears I think he’s an expert witness therapists like I talk to him a few weeks up to this call that trying to prepare and then the day it happened I call them and think there’s nothing you can say. That’s the hard part like there’s nobody that can really help you deal with this. It’s just awful and. I went through like weeks of just shaking like I didn’t even know how to process.

[01:39:05] It was just like this is the worst thing ever and I can’t believe I can’t just call her and say look this is wrong. Because this way here’s the fact. Like it’s so mind blowing that we can’t help people we love that day. I mean it’s hard to even comprehend. Really. It really is.

[01:39:23] It’s a little job of manipulating the entire situation by the colds. I mean they’ve they’ve got it set out to where doing it. They’ve got you coming and going. There’s no way to really be able to have these honest conversations because they just shut down.

[01:39:40] Yes shut down really and so many time. Yeah exactly. Get furious or shut down. So so I kept thinking all these things I wish I could tell her like the things that I was going to tell her. And I ended up doing YouTube videos for her and that was so therapeutic because without that like to think oh I should tell her this why were she knew this. I wish she knew that and knowing that I will never know the right time for her to know these things. But if I put it on YouTube then at. Her like maybe some night she’ll be alone in bed and thinking of me and she’ll know these videos are out there and she’ll look at them. Who knows. But. I figure I can help other people because I’ve been silent for so long. Keeping my mouth shut about everything because I didn’t want it to get back you know I didn’t want to be viewed as an apostate term which I already knew wasB.S. Anyway I already knew it wasn’t anything bad but. But I didn’t want her to hear that word for me because I knew how she viewed it. But I I did a lot of research for each video and organize them and I hate being on camera about I did it. Hopefully someday she’ll see them I managed to be very calm very you know fact factum you know we’ll see what happens down the road with that. But like now I I felt this other level freedom opened up where I wasn’t Oh I wasn’t faking part of my life you know like for her like not saying certain things that felt really freeing and good I was able to reconnect with my real dad because I think up to that point I was so consumed with my daughter and wanting to help her. I didn’t have time to put in things that I needed. So my step dad had passed away and my mom was out of the picture so I have a real dad and I allowed myself to have that again. And that’s been very healing and good to have an. Eye. I just hold out hope for my daughter to some day. Call me you know but I hear a little things like she doesn’t talk much to your sister anymore which is devastating.

[01:41:52] You know my my youngest daughter Megan she’s she is so just amazing like she’s heard all this stuff for so long that when we we went to Ohio to visit my grandparents and that’s where my daughter is and she met Megan for launch and she made sure I was not going to be there I was not going to come in.

[01:42:15] And that was like yes I know I’m not coming in but my grandparents went to a different restaurant with me and I dropped off Megan for her sister. When Maggie came out is like so what did you guys talk about. And she was like well I brought up like the blonde like the Bible says I want mercy not sacrifice. And and she said well blood transfusions kill people too. And. I brought up the child abuse and she said well that’s only in one country and the media is just lying about it all. And she brought up you she brought up like fagging subject. Right. I didn’t even know she real. She had a handle on all of us but she did. And her sister kept saying well dying and you’re too young to understand and she said like what’s wrong with mom like you were fine to talk to her before. Now you can’t like she just loves you. I mean she just went to bat.

[01:43:10] For me and her sister like she knows she’s tricked. She doesn’t take it personal. Like I’ve explained to her from the times she’s very little. Because this is a part of our family.

[01:43:22] You know it’s part of our life. So she she has she she doesn’t internalize it or think it’s her fault but she wants to help her sister so much so that was amazing. And then I’ve had my my sister now has opened her eyes and off to like talk to her about it and say like you know I’m not living that a lifestyle and you talk to me. You talk to your cousins who are like you know quote unquote bad but you don’t talk to your mom who is like living like the cleaners moral lifestyle of us all like that does it make sense you hang out with other relatives that are witnesses and aren’t aren’t even good association like known to do drugs and get drunk all the time. Like it’s just amazing how disfellowshipping or shunning it’s just to keep information from them period.

[01:44:13] It is not about your association or like. Can you imagine a mom being bad association like hey you should go do some drugs honey. You know that’s ridiculous. Right. It’s really all about the control.

[01:44:26] And you know like you said it’s about information you know withholding information from these people it’s not about it’s not about anything more than that they’re really now and now and actually getting married I found out that like she’s not even one witness.

[01:44:46] Right. We all know there’s price to me.

[01:44:48] It’s funny. No surprise me about like my family I said well she’s probably married right. Right. But now. Now and then huh.

[01:44:56] Wow that’s Yeah. You know I it’s funny how. Every.

[01:45:00] Sunday they all believe me that I know what I’m talking about you know abiding by it. Yes. So every time I hear stuff like that as though the knife just twists like like I heard Brenda talk about you’re never free from it because as long as you are people you love. I feel like they’re chained inside the prison and I won’t leave the prison walls because I will always be there in case she ever needs to come out. You know as soon as she’s ready I am there. So you can’t ever go far.

[01:45:30] Yeah. No you’re absolutely correct.

[01:45:33] I mean I think any of us that still have family and we’ll always be connected to Jehovah’s Witnesses or LDS or Mennonites or whatever Cullity religion you know there is because we have to be. They’ve they’ve got people in there and if we love them then you know we want to still be around to help them if they need or whatever. Which you know is such a it’s such a contrast. You know Jehovah’s Witnesses proclaim to you they profess that they they have no true love they know what love is but yet their love is so short short handed. You know they they’re quick to dismiss a person to throw them away like trash. You know whatever happened to the scripture in Corinthians about love believing all things hoping all things never failing. You know their love is so easy to fail. If you if you just say you know one of the questions the elders often want to ask anyone who’s leaving is do you still believe in the faithful and discreet slave and the governing body. You know are those people like if you answer no to that their love is gone. It was just that that conditional. And yet you know here we are people who are being shunned who are being treated like crap by those that we cared for but yet we would all welcome them back. You know with open arms they don’t have to even change who they are. You know right. They just have to be open. That’s it.

[01:47:23] Yeah. My my niece once said like I think she would talk to you if you just don’t talk about their religion. I said I absolutely would not talk about religion if that was the case. Yeah but it’s not and that’s the point. That’s why I’m talking about the religion. There is no way for me to have her in my life as long as she’s in it. There’s no way.

[01:47:44] No it does not matter right. No. Toward the end I know with my own family toward the end of when we would we would hang out.

[01:47:56] You know they knew not to discuss their religion any more. Around me I hadn’t at that point. I still believed in it all. I just had a lot of bones to pick her and I usually I would try not to even say anything but they knew that if they brought up something like let’s just say hating on the gays as my like to say you know you would say something about the gays and I would say well like you know you know I would just say that they’re not choosing that anymore than you’re choosing to be heterosexual. You know I wish I had started to gain perspective on things. So they knew to shut that conversation down. So they just wouldn’t talk about anything anymore and we could still hang out you know but the sad thing is my wife and I noticed and we would talk about it after we left that the conversations were one sided it was just us. Because aside from being one of Jehovah’s witnesses they have nothing else to talk about. And that’s so true. And we also said we would go over there and my wife and we we would leave and we like it’s just not the same anymore. There’s there’s nothing to talk about because that’s all they have. You know we would talk about other things we were getting NS2 or things that are interesting in life and they just really didn’t have anything except for either talking about their beliefs or talking about the brothers and sisters in the Keenum Hall. Yes the gossip. Yeah yeah. Other than that they don’t have anything else. Their life is completely one dimensional. And it’s so sad that you know that’s all they have. So you know like with you and your daughter if you were around her it’s going to end up being about the religion because your daughter would have to bring that up at some point because that’s just sadly what they have.

[01:49:59] And yet it’s that’s their whole world their whole self-esteem. Like everything that it was for us when we were in it it is for them. And they they’re not allowed any other aspect. So it’s it is very sad and very limiting. And then one day like I’ve noticed a lot of people really miss the fellowship you know that feeling of having a community and it’s hard when you leave to not have that but it’s so important to realize that. Like like my husband brought up to me because I said I miss that like I miss that and he’s like that’s not normal. Like what you experience there that’s not normal. And you can see it’s not because it can be gone in the drop of a hat like having a couple friends a couple good friends. That’s what’s normal.

[01:50:46] So having a million worldwide brotherhood of friends that can drop you in a hot second or having two good friends like what would you rather like the normal thing is just a couple good friends that will stick by you and you know really care about you won’t leave your faith your family. You know just having your spouse that loves you unconditionally better than a million people loving you conditionally. So that’s something like I feel like it’s important for us all this extra help as witnesses to remember. Like yeah.

[01:51:18] Yeah. D Is it me I’ll be honest. Because you know I’ve even told my wife I I’m the kind of person I’ve always been the kind of person.

[01:51:30] When I was a witness I knew everybody and a lot of people knew who I was.

[01:51:36] I had a few close friends too. It’s kind of a kind of strange at least when I was young I had some close friends and then as I got older I had no close friends but I knew everybody all Yeah yeah I knew everybody and everybody knew me. But you know as an ex Jehovah’s Witness like I’m finding myself like I have a lot of friends. I don’t have a lot of super close friends and honestly I’m not 100 percent sure that I know how to how to have super close friendships because in the organization you just don’t. You don’t have that many super close friends. Everything is conditional and having any real intimacy I don’t know if that’s the right word for a friendship but any real closeness that’s that’s not something you have that often in the organization because everything is very shallow it’s shallow. You could get moved congregations at any time.

[01:52:40] And you always knew like you if they moved you to a certain other congregation to help out or something like you’d never see those people you were friends with before again. So true. So it really does have an impact on even the way you see the world and life socially. That is very hard to shake because those are the foundations that you were you were built upon her. So that’s an excellent point.

[01:53:06] I love it when someone like yourselfer have had other guests on the show who maybe were married to someone who wasn’t a witness or in a relationship and that person can see things in the witnesses like this. You know with relationships with friendships and you and I being from have a hard time seeing because it’s just the only lens we’ve ever had.

[01:53:35] Yeah and it’s normal to have a few buddies that maybe you met through work to go golfing with but you don’t know everything. Like they used to say at the meetings I used to know the wallpaper and the brothers and sisters kitchens you remember that like you know everybody that well that you know what wallpaper they have in their kitchen. I like it when I hear things. Yeah but you were work Colo. No. And when you look at somebody you knew Valy BAM gone. Yeah.

[01:54:04] Like so and you were always bishes to them too because bad association wasn’t just outside in the world at large right that associates could be right found right in the in the Keenum Hall with you so you had to be so cautious around everybody and always kind of looking with that side of drugged out what they were really out to.

[01:54:26] Yeah so so just. But but it is normal in life just to have friends that you enjoy hanging out with. You don’t have to be like no everything they read because it’s exactly what you believe. Like there wasn’t much mystery there with being a Jehovah’s Witness with exactly what they believe. They know exactly what you do or they wouldn’t be there.

[01:54:46] It was automatic but it was very shallow. Yeah relationships are very yes.

[01:54:51] Very much so. So yeah. The stuff that we’re experiencing today if you have like one person that loves you unconditionally. You are. You know you are on top of your game and if you have a few friends to hang out with like that’s pretty much normal and we just have to realize that yes it’s fulfilling though it really is like you know it doesn’t leave you longing for things like with my second daughter Meghan. I always felt so bad. She doesn’t have a grandma but she has a mom and a dad that loves her unconditionally and she’s happy as can be and she missed that she doesn’t miss having a grandma that would love her conditionally. So it’s really eye opening to see that somebody who hasn’t been and that doesn’t even miss it because it’s not normal.

[01:55:35] Very true very true yeah. Well are there any ways you know that you’re speaking about you specifically. You know we’re talking about the friendship and relationship aspect but are there any other ways that you find it you know your past life as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses kind of still impacts you.

[01:55:56] Oh there are all kinds of weird things that come up like I like my stepdaughter was watching a TV show a very popular TV show about the dead that are walking. And she was like 15 and I was like I don’t think she should be watching that because like what will that lead to. You know she watches that when she’s 15. What’s she going to be. Is she going to be eating people by the time she’s 17. And I thought wait a minute like I don’t really believe this like it.

[01:56:27] It’s funny the things that your mind kind of reverts back to. But it’s fun to discover. Me. I’m. Not. That judgmental. You know that. That doesn’t lead to that. That’s you know it’s just like taking things a lot lighter is so important. And I love not judging people. I love that. I think that’s that’s who I am on the inside. And like I’ve I’ve always hated like we’re not supposed to judge in the religion but you do Yeah judge everybody. Yes. Yes. So not having that is just just incredibly freeing and not having the guilt for every little thing that you do that is so nice. So and I think by now I’ve pretty much been able to. A lot most of it go. But like the whole thing with Trump saying peace and security I. Had.

[01:57:19] To refresh my memory on why that doesn’t mean it’s been declared peace and security now then coming home like some still got me and it shocks me when it happens like you know like goodness we have all the extra witnesses to turn to that. Oh have been that a million times haha. Oh yeah.

[01:57:37] Oh yeah. Those who are listening who aren’t affiliated with the witnesses. There’s a scripture that says something about there would be a cry of peace and security and then sudden destruction has to be instantly upon you.

[01:57:50] And so Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that that verse to mean that there’s gonna be some sort of a cry now this cry can either be We want peace and security because things are so awful or that was originally what they said. But then to hedge their bets. They all said that it could be well it could just be a cry that hey we’ve achieved peace and security and then Armageddon will start. So so whether things look good or whether they’ve got it covered as long as the word peace and security is in there then that is when sudden destruction has to be instantly upon us as humankind. Now of course 1986 was the International Year of Peace and Security. And somehow we’re still here in 2018.

[01:58:41] I’m ahead much more of a crime than a than the International Year of Peace and Security where commemorative coins were made for it. But now any time any world leader says the words peace or security suddenly witnesses get freaked out thinking that Armageddon is about to come. And so I mean I I’ve seen on some of the forums and sites sometimes ex witnesses you know like yourself others you know even just hearing that because we were taught that that was a trigger for Armageddon. Yes. You know it’s just so embedded in our psyche that we hear something like that and it’s like oh crap what if they were right.

[01:59:20] Yes.

[01:59:21] They did that because they do want it on your brain. All that’s right. Anything could be the start again. There is right one funny thing that happened when I was a kid. I think I was like 13 and I was babysitting. A bunch a little kid and how House Los Vegas and I heard this big boom like this huge boom and I thought this is Armageddon. And I try to stay very calm with the children. But my mind was like oh my gosh it’s starting and it was it was blow up at the marshmallow factory so it’s not Armageddon but it just out.

[01:59:54] It’s on your mind all the time.

[01:59:56] Yes. And you second. Well I would say that a world without marshmallows might be as good as Armageddon. Yeah it’s even worse than I thought. Yeah.

[02:00:09] So you know it is funny though how those little things you know and I still find them too little things that creep up or just even know from me.

[02:00:20] I have a hard time even watching things that are like very violence or you know because I just I wasn’t around it so. So I’m very sensitive to that stuff.

[02:00:34] But you know that again I know a lot of my friends who watch all kinds of things that you know that go you know very violence or whatever. And I’m happy for them because I wish I could get get beyond some of that stuff. You know that’s what I think we’ve all got are our things.

[02:00:55] And you know it’s OK to be like that’s another thing like war and all the same stuff. Yeah. You know Alinsky handle it for some don’t enjoy that for stress and anxiety of that so. So it’s OK it’s OK if you enjoy it it’s OK if you don’t like it.

[02:01:08] That’s the lovely thing about being free and being yourself and you can figure that out you know. Yeah. That’s right.

[02:01:20] If you could say anything to your family and friends that shown you. Is there anything that you would say. I mean maybe. Is there anything you would say specifically to your daughter or to anyone else.

[02:01:32] What I would say to my daughter is I love you so much and I’m here for you no matter what. Like there will never be a time that I am done with you that I feel like it’s crossed the line. Like if you ever come to me I am here with open arms no matter what your situation is.

[02:01:52] And that is what unconditional love is and that’s the kind of love I’ve always had for you and always well and I hope that someday you understand like all the things that happened and why because they had nothing to do with my love for you even though it hurts to have your mom leave. And it hurts to feel like you weren’t good enough to come back to a religion for what it had nothing to do with that. And I will always love you and I always think if I pass away or something happens and she gets out and regrets it. I want her to know that I always know she loves me even if she can’t show it. So that’s what I would tell her.

[02:02:35] Oh that’s beautiful.

[02:02:39] I just miss her so much. Like I don’t cry motto try not to cry much but there are times that I just cry all day because there is not a day that goes by that I don’t miss her. You know.

[02:02:52] Yeah I mean I think one of the worst things about shining is that that person isn’t dead. They’re just treated that way. They’re like oh so hard and so I mean I guess I’m one sided. You can still hold out some hope but you know hope well.

[02:03:14] Oh wow I guess I’m going to quote scripture that they hope deferred makes the heart sick. You know it’s true. Oh I hate that I said that there are some good guys. But it’s untrue. You know when a hope is deferred it hurts.

[02:03:34] And you know obviously you know you’re going to miss her until that day comes. And you know I think what you said was beautiful you know that deep down she loves you. She says she’s currently a victim of circumstance. And you know hopefully someday hopefully something that will change. That’s the hope that we used to always hold out for. You know when we were witnesses I used to hold out that hope for my brother who was this fellowship that yeah maybe someday he would come back.

[02:04:02] Now look at now it’s me that’s all I know is that you know we’re so weird that think that they were like yeah we hope you come back to our little bubble com bubble instead of us going to where the real world.

[02:04:16] That’s just so funny to have both perspective. Yeah we really are. We were the ones using to shun them. They never changed but we’re hoping something different. So great docilely. Yeah really is.

[02:04:31] Is there anything you’ve learned since leaving the cult that has impacted your life for the better.

[02:04:40] I mean just everything you know you know off. Yes. The Freedom feeling authentic and real being a law without restrictions are not guilt for nothing. That one day I enjoy it.

[02:04:57] It’s weird like when you’re a witness you always want paradise paradise paradise like that’s what you’re hoping for. And now I look out the window like.

[02:05:05] Paradise like going to the beach and spending the day on the ocean and finding shells. I mean just little simple things that you don’t have much time for as a Jehovah’s Witness that I enjoy it so much you know just those those kinds of things and just learning to be to really think critically about everything is me me just a better person like I really honed in on those skills and.

[02:05:33] And able to think things through and trust my own gut like that is something so important because like when I first left and anybody who first leaves will have issues with that. Because you’re taught a higher life you can not lean upon your own understanding or you have you know your heart is treacherous and and you know you have to have somebody telling you what to do but we are born with these natural instincts that will help us along the way and learning to trust that has been really really just a great feeling and confidence in yourself like that’s okay. Just just so much.

[02:06:08] I mean is there anything that you know appreciate it how you brought out that you know even like the little things like going to the beach and collecting shells like your life now is more precious because this the life you have not that this promised paradise in the future or whatever but this is what you have. And so you know it’s Carpe Adium situation. Or is there anything else that you that you really enjoy anything you’ve been able to do or are there any dreams even that you have for your new life you know since like I felt like I was held down for a long time until my daughter actually left and you know going through that process.

[02:06:55] I think right now my focus is a lot on being the mom to my 12 year old like it’s so nice. Oh I do love raising her knowing there’s no Kalt.

[02:07:05] You know there’s no she. She can be herself and seeing her blossom in that and seeing what a wonderful human she is. It’s made me feel like OK I am a good mom because that was something that I was scared to even have another child like I might leave that child to you know that I might do the same thing but it’s been a totally different experience.

[02:07:25] And having woke up right when she was born it was wonderful you know to be able to come out of that and her be able to see me confident and she admires you know what I do and supports me you know getting the story out there.

[02:07:40] She’s she’s really an incredible little person. So that’s a that’s that’s my thing right now is just raising her and being a good good family person like that song Three Doors Down. If I could be like that I would hear it. And it said just so warm house on a quiet little street like that’s all I wanted.

[02:08:03] I wanted to find that because it was so hard being a witness thinking Armageddon is going to come kill some of your relatives that you love. You know you’re going to be in paradise but aren’t you going to miss them. No. Who is going to make you forget them. All that was a constant stress and then leaving was a very stressful time and I just would listen to that song over and over and then last year on my birthday it came on the radio. As we left the restaurant and I just started bawling. I have that you know. Yeah that’s that’s my life.

[02:08:32] So so my focus has kind of been like you know getting late being free to talk and using that outlet and trying to help people. And suddenly they think maybe I would like to be some kind of counselor or therapist for other people exiting cults because I think there needs to be more help for that cause it’s like it takes an average of seven years I’ve read to really figure things out and that was about the link for me.

[02:09:01] So I would love to just explore more of that.

[02:09:05] Once my daughter’s older you know that’s a beautiful goal to have thought about that myself.

[02:09:13] Yes. And you’re doing a wonderful job what you’re doing is that so. I mean yeah you are. It’s awesome.

[02:09:20] Well I I’m in all of your story. I think that it’s just so impactful you know what you went through and I think one of the things that shines through in all of it is your sincerity and I just think that’s that’s a beautiful quality. You know that as long as you can be a sincere person and stay away from the wrong influences then you know you can turn that into anything. So you know I think that I know myself that’s that’s something that I’m working on too. You know once you leave a call you have to take all of that energy and all that sincerity and channel somewhere you know figure out where to put that. And I think it’s beautiful that you’re you know you’ve got that cozy little home now and you know you’ve got family and you’ve got your friends and I just think that’s so great. And I hope that you know who knows maybe someday your daughter can even come in and join in the fun.

[02:10:26] I really hope so that would be a day. I mean people ask me on my YouTube channel like have you heard anything like it.

[02:10:33] No but her asked me the day it happens it will be an hour like I will shout it out. You know if I if it ever happens and I have that reality that it may not like. Sure. That is the fact. And that is like that’s a hard thing to face. And every single parent or every single person who’s lost their parent I mean all of us all of us who’ve left these controlling religions know that is a big possibility and to say like oh just don’t give up or that’s not really fair to us because there’s a big possibility that it won’t happen and that happens to a lot of people. So what I think is important is we have to go it go ahead and give yourself permission to take care of yourself and to live the happiest best life you can because if they ever do come we want to be like not devastated not torn down not ruined like you in my life I’ve lived 20 years without you do you know what this has done to me. I haven’t been able to be a mom to the other kid. I’ve been you know neglecting my husband like no we have to be strong and be there for them. So that’s one thing that kept me going is like OK I’m going to do the best I can to be happy and healthy myself so that when she comes to me it can be helping her. You know that’s yeah that’s something we all. And it takes permission to do that because we always want to put others like theirs. There is a thing of like self martyrdom that we all grew up with too that we don’t want to let that influence us today. We’re worth it. It’s OK. It’s ok to be happy in and do the best thing for ourselves. That’s that’s what we’re here for. You know this everyday life this is each day you have is the one you’re guaranteed so make the most of that.

[02:12:19] You know as always I want to thank Lyndi for being so open about her life the ups and downs the good the bad and I’m so glad that she’s been able to carve out a good life for herself and her family. And I hope that maybe someday her daughter that still in can open her eyes and maybe see what she’s missing out on. You know I know it won’t be easy for her either if that time comes. You know once a life has touched rather cold there’s not really a lot of easy choices but there’s always hope and freedom is a beautiful thing. So we hope that she finds that to if you’d like to leave a nice message for Lindi you can do so in a couple of ways. You can go to shun podcasts dot com and you can find our episode on the episodes page and leave a comment of support there. You can also join in. Over a hundred of us our own little congregation of sorts at the new Facebook group called shun podcast. It’s a private group and we do some fun things in there. We share quotes that we like to talk about self care share music try to make it a positive place for those of us to land after leaving these controlling groups. Lindy’s actually in there too and you can leave a comment on the post that all make for the episode so you’ll know that she sees it. You can also find the podcast on YouTube under the channel called shunnedpodcast. One word you can also find us on Instagram at shunnedpodcast. Also one word and on Twitter shunnedpodcast. Yes. It’s one word. If you’d like to hear my story and a great insight into how the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses works you can do so at the podcast called This JW Life. Also found at thisjwlife.com we don’t have any new supporters for the show this month but you can always go to patreon.com/shunned and support the show there for as little as a dollar a month. I’ve been getting all the transcripts done enough for the episodes so those are all on the Web site now speaking of episodes I’m back at the regular schedule now. Over the past few months I’ve done some extra episodes released. I think it was five episodes instead of my normal one a month. So it’s been kind of crazy. It’s been fun at the same time I’ve done a lot of interviews as well and I’m kind of looking forward to getting back to the regular schedule for now I know the great way that you can support both the show on podcast and this Jadavpur life is to head over to iTunes and leave a five star review for them. It helps them to get found in the searches over there so that more people can find it you know I actually just got an e-mail this week from a guy that is currently on Episode four of thisJ.W. life and he’s dealing with complex PTSD after leaving the cult. And you know the shining and everything that comes along with it. And he said he’s being helped by the podcast so you know as he makes his way through I’m sure at some point I’ll get an e-mail from him. Hopefully he’ll join us on shunned as he eventually gets around to this maybe even this episode. And I’m sure I’ll probably get an e-mail saying hey that’s me. So yes we’re talking about you and we hope that you know you feel better over time and we’re glad that the podcast can help. So you know any little thing you can do whether it’s supporting financially or with a review or just telling a friend you never know whose life it might help. I’ve been bad about remembering to include the songs that people chose to represent their journeys at the end here. So Linda chose the song If I could be like that by three doors down. It’s a great choice if I do say so myself. Go to the Web site you’ll see things that impacted her listed on her episode post. You also see a link to the song. And actually if you’re on a podcast you can probably see all of the relevant information in the description on your app as well. The song that opens and closes every episode of shown now is no hell yet by fair voyeur and I’ve been getting some good comments about the song must be kind of an earworm seems it kind of sticks in your head a bit. The artist is actually an ex witness herself and we relate some of the comments to her and she was absolutely thrilled to hear them so feel free if you like the song. Feel free to. You can say so in the Facebook group you can shoot me a private message on Facebook if you’re a friend send me an email. Podcast theG.M. dot com whatever whatever floats your boat. But you know she likes hearing that people are enjoying her music as well. And so for those on to her. So until next month. Love others do no harm and go be happy.