Episode Twenty One – V – Shunning In A Racist Family Cult

V Practiced Shunning In Her Racist Family Cult.mp3

[00:00:40] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we expose religions that use shunning as a tool to control people. We have a fascinating interview with someone that was raised in a racist family cult was very small cult just 14 people or so in actuality. But the teachings of the leader were found online and they attracted a lot of alt-right and neo-Nazi supporters that were drawn to it. This is a look into the literal lifecycle of a cult. You’re going to see how a cult begins. How this one in particular eventually came to an end. But how even the beliefs still linger which is the power of a cult. Those those beliefs are still there last month’s episode really shined a light on the narcissism present in Jehovah’s Witnesses. But this episode is going to show how one narcissist it only takes one one narcissist can impact so many people’s lives. And it shows how narcissism breeds narcissism among a group we’re not going to be using this guest’s name. She picked a letter to go by so we’ll call her V. I will also not be releasing the name of the cult or the Web site that was used. We live in a world right now that is more concerned with hunting people down based on what a person said years ago than they are looking at who a person is now. My guest has been impacted in this current climate where employment can be impacted simply based on affiliation with a thing at one point in a person’s life simply because they were raised in it. Or maybe that’s just the way they were raised or they didn’t know better or whatever. I think as the Bible says let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I’m not down with outrage culture and I’m not here to promote it or to cause problems for people. This person is being very brave and telling their story and they should be rewarded for it not penalized stick around after the interview and you’re going to hear how the podcast is doing what next month’s episode will be about. And I’m going to give you some highlights from the shun Podcast Facebook group and what’s going on there. So without further ado let’s meet Vy My name is V.

[00:02:54] I’m twenty six years old. I was born into a small family cult and I have shunned people I love all right.

[00:03:03] So then how did you come to be in the family courts in the first place.

[00:03:09] Well it goes back quite a ways. I was born into it. I’m the youngest SEC fifth. I’m sick of six kids and my mom and her sister. Were very close and my sister met the man who would eventually become the cult leader and they got married and he had always been an extremely polarizing person very narcissistic and set in his ways which was attractive to my aunt who lived with mental illness and anxiety and panic and his very strong can do everything I can fix everything. Attitude was comforting. I think to her and a few years before I was born my parents marriage really started unraveling and my mom’s long held fear and anxiety around religion and safety really kind of hit her pretty hard. And my uncle was promising that he had this new way of believing and he understood the gospel in the way no one else did and he could make sure her kids were saved and he knew all the ways. And looking back it’s pretty clear that none of those claims were things that he could follow through on. But for my mom who is in a marriage that wasn’t particularly easy and who had a lot of unprocessed trauma from her childhood. Those claims seem so comforting. And originally she accepted the blues through a little while. My dad did not. And then they were actually shunned by my uncle and my aunt for about two years over some money and other disputes. My uncle really enjoyed the power of cutting people out of his life and he used it often. But after that time my mom just felt so lost. She started going alone to the meetings and it was just just the three of them. But at that rapidly grew and when I was 4 my dad was excommunicated. There were a lot of reasons why he was excommunicated. All the men in my family were excommunicated and I think that that’s what the leader used to kind of control and also people who spoke up against him got kicked out. But after I was four that’s when the cult really started shutting down. We got kicked out of our last traditional church by my uncle standing up and calling up the pastor in a very awful looking back at it. He would literally stand up in sermons and tell the pastor he was wrong and he was preaching evil things and so obviously we didn’t make it through churches but as a 6 year old we moved away from the little country house that we had we had acreage where the pool was wonderful but it was just too much for my mom and really moving into town. Having my dad be no longer a part of our lives except for through court ordered visitation. Really started closing everything down especially because when my dad. Was excommunicated he sued my mom for custody of us kids and every single person that she knew sided with my dad because they knew my uncle and they knew how oppressive he was and they were worried about us. And so my mom lost all of her friends and her husband and her church and everything that I was outside of the cold and that was when we really like closed down for all of us and a pretty intense way.

[00:07:09] So when you say it closed down what does that mean.

[00:07:13] So that means we were taught like for example we had to go to visitation with my dad but we were taught we couldn’t say I love you to him trust him for anything he was evil.

[00:07:25] So you did not win custody then he did not win custody.

[00:07:29] No. My mom won custody and he won visitation rights every other weekend with the three youngest kids. Which was another complicated factor because the three oldest chose not to go with him. And that kind of caused a chasm in the family a little bit but it closed down in that like we were instead of going to church and then like maybe having a cult meeting we started having cult meetings on Sunday and Thursday. Our beliefs got more crazy and we were taught. It’s interesting because I grew up in a neighborhood with lots of kids. I was not isolated physically but spiritually and like emotionally we were taught that we are responsible for other people’s choices and we had to like there are all these rules around friendship and around trusting people. And we were taught that the quote unquote real Christian Church are like the mainstream Christian church was evil and was Calvinism was the biggest issue because we believed in conditional salvation. Anything with unconditional salvation meant they were evil. So when I say closed down I just mean that as a young person I was taught to not trust anyone except for the 14 people in the cult with me which as you can imagine is very isolating. Yeah.

[00:08:50] Good.

[00:08:51] No it’s OK.

[00:08:51] No no I just wanted to say this is this is really fascinating because what you have here is the nexus of the cult. It’s it’s it’s a look in to how it all starts and you’ve got Syria.

[00:09:08] And it’s it’s amazing how that kind of ruled by fear naturally or anxiety. You seem to find these people who are the total polar opposite who are narcissistic and who are completely sure of themselves in a way that they doubt nothing about themselves. Exactly. Yeah. And then you then you just see how the narcissist gains power because he unfortunately a lot of times it is a he seems to attract people who are scared and then what he does is he rules through fear. Fear is tool.

[00:09:52] It absolutely was and I had an interesting talk with my mom recently too who said looking back at her life she can see that she acted primarily due to fear for most of her life. And it makes sense she had a pretty unstable childhood and then this man comes into her life and she was faced with the option of either she follows him and listens to him or she loses her sister and her mother who were they were pretty inseparable. My aunt was very sick from very early on and my grandmother was very close to her because of that and because of my aunt’s mental illness. So my mom even before there was a proper cult she was faced she faced shunning and loss. And for someone who is scared and and needs direction it makes perfect sense why we ended up there.

[00:10:45] Oh I mean absolutely. And you know one of the things I’ve noticed. Well first of all you know you have the power of shunning that was even there.

[00:10:55] You know right from the beginning because your mom immediately and then you have just the attraction of people who are hurt to the people that supposedly have all the sense. Yeah. Yeah exactly right.

[00:11:13] It’s it’s so sad because you know these are people who need help the most that you know I even in my own family from what I understand there may have been some trauma that attracted my parents in doing these interviews over and over again you find that there’s trauma somewhere in there that has made the mom or the dad vulnerable and have gone toward this thing. And then once you’re in it it’s so hard to ever get out of. It’s just a vortex that just kid is sucked in.

[00:11:44] Well I’m just really sorry for your mom that she you know had all the thing too was that she married a man who while I love him dearly he was raised. He’s the youngest of three and a very wealthy California family. He’s never had to work. He’s never had to really like fight for things. Yeah. And so when my mom joined the Colts he didn’t know how to fight for us and how to help us. And he knew we’re in a cult but he didn’t know what to do. And so when he got excommunicated it was obviously just completely devastating for him. But. As the person that he was I don’t think he was ever equipped to save us out of that kind of situation. And I know some of my siblings have felt really angry with him. And I’ve had moments of it for not doing more to save us but I don’t know what he could have done. He was completely excommunicated. We were all taught from. I mean my little brother was 2 when he got excommunicated. So we were taught almost from birth that he was evil and bad. And it’s just crazy how the personalities of people and the things in their past can really affect affect them for so long. We have such a long period of time. And the other thing too about my dad is that his parents were just blissfully married. They had a wonderful relationship and he went into marriage thinking that it would be like that. And it was not with my mom. They just were not. It was not a good fit from what I’ve heard. And obviously I was very little when they. Divorced. And so I don’t have a lot of clear memories of what their marriage was like. But from hearing from both of them there was just always is about imbalance that was just magnified when my mom went to the cult leader her brother in law and started listening to him exclusively.

[00:13:42] Oh I can only imagine how much that must have driven a wedge in there. I mean that’s Yeah. Yeah very strange. Yeah. And I feel I feel for your dad because you know I would assume he probably lives with a lot of regret. Yeah. And you know he was put he was simply just put in a position he was not equipped for. And then like you said you’re you’re taught from the time your to to think that he’s evil there. Yeah. There’s like even if he could have fought for you all. And even if he could have gotten custody he couldn’t necessarily change your mind.

[00:14:19] No he could have an end. It’s interesting looking back a lot of my siblings still have really complicated feelings about him. But within the last year I’ve been able to come back because we were out of contact for years and years after visitation ended. But I reached out to him and I was like I can only imagine what it would be like to have this family that you love. Six kids a wife and then all of a sudden they’re gone. And that was how it was for my dad is that he lost his whole family within a small period of time and it was partially due to his own mental illness. He went through a severe depressive episode had some suicidal ideation an attempt and he was cut out partly due to that and knowing that his own mental illness was was not only treated with disgust but it was also given a moral weight and that on its own is devastating. But then to realize you lose everything you love and this dream that he’s had since he was a tiny kid of having a loving marriage and like all of these things he lost so much and it I understand how he reacted the way that he did and why he kind of curled up in on himself as opposed to trying to keep fighting for us because it was a losing battle. I mean it really was. Yes I think she did the absolute best he could have done in the circumstances. And you know it’s just sucks it does it does it.

[00:15:49] You know it’s not something you’re you’re trained on how to deal with you know in any normal life and then you know it’s just so it is complicated because I can understand you know you’re also where your siblings have that complication because on one hand they’re hurt. Yeah they are.

[00:16:12] No unfortunately our emotions and our feelings and then are our mind our intellect don’t always sync up and so yeah it’s easy to feel hurt. On one hand but at the same time you can rationalize having compassion for this person because clearly he was just overwhelmed and overmatched. Yes. And you know he probably was doing the best that he could. But I mean it sounds like he had his own issues and we often forget that that adults have problems too.

[00:16:47] They absolutely do. And I think it’s been interesting for me getting back in touch with him and realizing that I mean his side of the story is so incredibly different from the site I was told.

[00:16:58] I mean I know that we were taught to think black and white. So it’s hard for me still to remember that like his perspective is his perspective. And that doesn’t make it wrong just because it doesn’t line up with my mom’s at all right.

[00:17:13] And that’s been really interesting too is learning like where he was coming from and we were really taught to fear him for a lot of really unfair reasons. Like he had some intrusive thoughts involving self harm and potentially harming my mom and he took care of it. I mean it was a mental thing it was an intrusive thoughts and you can’t control. But we were taught that he was violent and hurt my mom. And none of that happened. So it’s been really interesting like approaching my dad with like an open heart. As far as like what was your experience and I think it’s been especially difficult for my siblings because he’s still really gun shy about all of us which I don’t blame him for.

[00:17:58] And so I’m the only one talking to him at the moment. He’s not comfortable moving forward with other siblings yet and that’s been pretty painful for them. And I I feel for them and it’s been really hard. One of them asked me to stop talking to him because basically to shun him like just within the last few months because he’s talking to me and everyone else and I understood the impulse. But at the same time like I want to give him a place to finally kind of maybe get some of his family back and that’s not going to happen if I bring all these rules and laws to it.

[00:18:32] So I’m getting really off track as I think I know this is great. OK back to the child and there really I think this is important though you know because it Yeah it does show.

[00:18:47] Well you know it’s context.

[00:18:49] Yeah it’s context is that Piers that that perspective as well you know needs to be looked at you know taken in the context and this is all really a part of how how the brainwashing of a cult you know makes you see things the black and white ways and and discount the others experiences and things like that.

[00:19:12] So then. Yeah. So. OK. What was the your family has split up.

[00:19:22] You know you’re with your mom now and your. Is it all sisters or did you have brothers as well.

[00:19:28] So I have two brothers one on each end and there’s four girls in the middle. I’m the youngest of four. My oldest brother left the court when I was 12 and committed suicide when I was 18 which is an incredibly difficult thing to go into.

[00:19:44] I’m learning to come to terms with it. But his suicide was used as yet another fear tactic to keep us in the cult because the old verse the wages of sin are death was applied to him. And like if you leave you’re going to die too. Over and over and over and it was just really awful because we were never allowed to grieve our brother.

[00:20:06] I mean he was my big brother and I loved him so much and he had he was dead to us basically and he had to be and it was awful.

[00:20:17] And so but as far as the makeup of the call after my dad left the cult leaders brother joined shortly thereafter and he had he has two daughters and a son. So the main body of the cult was that family. So there’s five of them. And then my family and there were seven of us. And then the cult leader and his wife. And then my grandmother on my mom’s side. My mom also had obviously a father and a brother but the father was estranged. Even before the cult happened he was fairly abusive emotionally and physically and caused a lot of trauma to my aunt and my grandmother and my mom and then my mom had a brother who by all accounts now is just was an amazing man and exactly the kind of dad that I would have wanted to have had or like a person in my life. But they were ex communicated because they questioned the belief system right. They made the mistake of saying that what he was teaching wasn’t biblical because it wasn’t. And so we were taught to be afraid of them and that they were evil and that they were like Wicked Calvinists. And so we were really restricted to this very small group of people and we had to think all the same way and believe all the same stuff. And it was just a very phobic environments.

[00:21:46] So then what was the world view that you were given by the cold.

[00:21:51] Well it’s funny because there were two different things. I mean the aid specifically would say one thing and then act another way. But I grew up believing I was a Christian and that I was practicing Christianity in the way that we were taught back in like the New Testament where everyone’s at home churches. I had a whole speech about people because people would often ask me if I was in a cult. When I mentioned what I did for religion so much so that I had a complete spiel about how we’re not a cult. We’re home church. Like the Bible it’s wonderful. We want to come like blah blah blah blah. But the basic world view was salvation is conditional and love is conditional. If you make any mistake you have to repent or you’re going to hell. It was kind of like if the Big Book of Life that’s talked about in Revelation if there was an eraser around the end of your name would be written and then you make a mistake like argue with your sister and you’re out of the book of life. And it because of that I remember constantly feeling like there was a like a big cliff behind me and I was running away from it but it was following me and if I stopped for even a second I would fall in. Go to hell and never be saved. And that was just that in itself was pretty a lot of insecurity. And then couple that with the strong strong disgust and distrust that the cult leader had towards all other Christians the idea was that we were the only Christians that had this unique truth. We understood the whole truth which was conditional salvation the idea that we’re not. It’s not once saved always saved. It’s a continual choice that was very much wrapped up in some incredibly anti-Semitic beliefs regarding Israel which basically he went back to the idea that God made a covenant with Israel. They were kicked out of Palestine for their disobedience. And then when they came back in 1948 that was against conditional the conditions of the Covenant. That’s why they’re evil that’s why there’s problems in the Middle East. And it was always couched of course and like but we love the Jews and we don’t blame everybody. But that kind of really intense anti-Semitism does not get tangled from hate even if you’re trying to say that you have a loving mission towards them it was really like everything was blamed on the Jews. It’s really awful looking back but they didn’t believe that the Holocaust was what happened. And on the same token as you would imagine was also extremely homophobic and racist. My uncle would go spend the meetings that we had were anywhere from two to five hours twice a week. So we were sitting there just listening to all of his opinions. And one of his opinions that was really strong was that I think it’s Daniel there’s a prophecy about how the different races or different kinds of material. It’s very complicated and I don’t know how much of it’s actually biblical. But basically the idea that because of the way Abraham sons sinned. Black people are being punished forever and they’re like the lowest of the low. And then interestingly enough Jews are the highest. We are the true Jews because we are we’ve accepted Jesus like it was this very complicated convoluted thing that basically led to black people all their faults are because they’re black they’re evil. We should never muddy the races by getting married to them just like all this really insidious stuff and the cool eater had a pretty a huge Internet following but he had an Internet following and they were almost all of the like neo-Nazi ultra right people that appreciated this idea of like white men is best. Do not muddy the races like all of this incredibly. Problematic stuff that we’re seeing so much of in our culture today and how much it really does separate and divide us and being taught that from a young age and to feel any guilt feel so much guilt if you like have a friend who is black or a friend who’s gay or you know have God forbid you have a crush on someone who’s black probably just having a kind thought about someone of another race or sexuality was actuality we’re sure. Yeah the thing was is that there were things it was very contradictory because we did have a black man who joined the group for a while. Was eventually yeah he was eventually kicked out because he had the audacity of wanting to date and marry one of my sisters. But it was weird because there was so much double speak. I don’t know if you’ve read 1984 by George Orwell amazing book.

[00:26:53] Anyone listening. Let me read 1984.

[00:26:58] It’s honestly one of my favorite books because a lot of the tactics described were used like the idea of saying one thing and doing another doublespeak and the idea of like having two ideas that are completely contradicting each other. But like I can I can be friends of this black person but at the same time I believe they’re the lowest of the low. Like it was a very weird uncomfortable unstable way to think.

[00:27:24] Well yeah I’m in this black man joins this yeah that thinks that he is evil so I mean just think about the mother double speak but the cognitive dissonance that one would have to have exactly to to join something that is self hating.

[00:27:46] You know it’s pretty crazy to think about especially to think about. I have always been a very. I make friends really easily I’m I’m very introverted but I’m really good at pretending to be extroverted.

[00:28:00] I brought many people to the court meetings and there were a few times where I brought someone who one girl that I brought was bisexual and the poor thing just ended up getting yelled at by an hour for an hour and a half by the people there about how wrong that was and evil and like she never came back and I’m really glad she didn’t.

[00:28:24] I feel endlessly guilty about how did but how she was bisexual. It came up somehow I don’t remember I don’t remember how it happened I mean it seems like a pretty intimidating environment.

[00:28:35] Well it was the public. Public reproof sessions basically just public. You’re an evil person you should die. Sessions were really common. And if I remember right what happened with that was just that she she was very clearly not a conservative Christian. Yeah and so they started calling her out for that. And then she I think stood up for herself and for what she believed in and then they just got more and more awful. That was about a decade ago but it was really interesting to see how on one hand we’re like practice like Faith Faith we’ll save you and give grace to others and on the other hand we’re taught that if you hear a friend or see a friend or. Do anything slightly wrong like for example a friend had a tattoo you got a tattoo as a Christian. I’m perfectly fine with now by the way let’s see. She ended up getting excommunicated by us for that because the idea was that if you saw someone doing something wrong and you didn’t call them out for it that you would be culpable if they went to hell. And that comes from a very misinterpreted chapter in a sequel that talks about the watchers on the wall that you’re responsible to call out and like in the city. If there are. Marauders coming or whatever and if you don’t then it’s your fault.

[00:30:04] So I understand that there there’s a whole lot of that kind of stuff in the Bible.

[00:30:09] There is and the problem is when that’s taken and twisted and applied to every every little area and I think a really good example of this is when I was six. We had just moved into the new house in the neighborhood the neighborhood was great. There were like thirty five kids under the age of 15. So we had a lot of people around us and the first girl I met was my next door neighbor and she was four and we became really close friends but that was around the same time that the Cook got really intense. So I was sitting in court meetings being taught that for example Halloween’s really evil all modern day church pastors are bad and they’re preaching the wrong thing. Like all these really intense beliefs while being told that I need to tell people that so my poor little neighbor were over hanging out. I think it’s October just talking about Halloween. She’s really excited. So I go off on her about how Halloween is of the devil. Her pastor is bad and her mom got remarried so that means she’s able to and I left thinking wow like I help that little girl I saved her life. Like all these things because I’m a 7 year old and I was precocious and that’s what I thought I should do. And her dad came over and was just of course livid because this poor little girl gets told that all these things that are important to her evil. Yes. And so the dad who I loved you. He’s a policeman and he was just like the coolest man and he I looked up to him and he just like got so mad and my mom was really mad at me and I was really confused because I’m like I did exactly what I was taught right. Right. And my mother ended up getting publicly approved. The next day in the court meeting because the court leader said that what I did was perfectly right. And my mom shouldn’t be afraid of man and all this stuff but that that little incident in my childhood really shaped how I moved forward. It also was some of the first time I had doubts. I mean I was little and I was like this does not seem to me this does not seem right. Like I am just trying to help my friend and I’m getting yelled at for it. And then my mom’s getting yelled at and it was just this idea that we were meant to be like. Judging other people based on very very superficial ideas was really pervasive and caused a lot of problems throughout my life.

[00:32:39] Well sure. You know I mean a narcissist is the perfect judge jury and executioner you know. And then and then basically all he’s doing is teaching you to be a narcissist.

[00:32:50] You know you do the same but only at his specific way.

[00:32:56] I mean come on we have to have standards to set them up. He hears from God. Well yes. Yes.

[00:33:06] No it’s another piece of it was this idea that the Holy Spirit speaks directly to us. Granted he was the only one that really hurt him.

[00:33:14] But that idea that like the Holy Spirit and God are going to guide us and direct us through like basically verbal ideas especially one of the most detrimental beliefs that really I mean because in the name of that you can’t be racist and you can be all these other things and you can cause all sorts of pain because the Holy Spirit led you and it’s just for your gut.

[00:33:41] Yeah. And I mean look let’s face it. Usually when people hear voices that’s a sign of mental illness it’s not a sign of God speaking to anyone. Yes. We help those people we don’t put them up on a pedestal typically in a secular society and I know we don’t know anything but people do.

[00:34:06] What was childhood like. I mean because I mean obviously you had these two meetings a week and they were very long harsh it sounds almost rants from this this narcissist. What was childhood like at home. Did you have to like did you have to study a lot for these meetings. I mean it sounds like it was kind of winged but I mean were there.

[00:34:33] We had to do so kind of we were we were homeschooled so we were home all the time. Yes. Yes. And throughout the week there wasn’t there weren’t huge expectations of us. It got more intense around the holidays. We were required to give testimonies every year and that was always really hard because there were like five because it was Easter Thanksgiving. So I guess through Christmas I feel like there are more but that was really when we had to like study.

[00:35:05] But and then also there were a few times where we did offshoot cult meetings like there was a youth meeting for a while and that was much more intense. We had to like study and be prepared for that. But childhood mostly for me was just I mean I remember a lot of really wonderful moments. And I think that comes from I started to read when I was three and I never really stopped and I kind of grew up in books in a way that really protected me a lot from a lot of the more difficult experiences that my siblings may not have had the same protection from. I.

[00:35:42] Have a very vivid imagination and I’ve always been an artist and been creative. And so a lot of my childhood I think back on those moments and how even during some of them worst cult meetings where I was unknowingly self harming or doing other tools to get through it. I was often able to escape into my own world and that protected me so much and also helped me kind of like stand on my own two feet especially for example against the racist idea. I never stood for that like that that just never felt correct to me. I was really able to hold on to a few of my own ideas. I think largely because I did have my own safe world like I even had like an imagined room that I could go to that was safe and like all these tools that I use. I didn’t know where tools like them but they were what protected me I think in a large way an escape. It was very much of an escape. And it was an escape. No one could dictate. I mean my mother could dictate the kind of books I got. So could the cult leader. Right. But.

[00:36:50] I could still escape and I mean there are lots of things looking back that I did have a very happy childhood. I had people who loved me. I always had playmates especially for my little brother and I we played Legos constantly and we were in a neighborhood so we could run out and play tag with kids. It just got more complicated as I got older and was expected to like be more of an advocate for the cult. And when my brother left when I was 12 everything really changed. Then as you can imagine I remember that day I was doing what I usually did which was in lieu of taking notes like everyone else did.

[00:37:33] I was drawing in my notebook because I always helped me I was always drawing something still. Still to this day always during something. My brother there was a huge confrontation but I wasn’t really paying attention because it seemed like just another public reproof. But at the end of it my brother walked out and we never saw him again. And that for me kicked off a pretty intensive period of not understanding why we had to suffer so much. Not understanding why God would call us to do this. My mom would cry every day and I couldn’t understand why she had to go through this and why I couldn’t love my brother anymore. So I think before twelve even with visitation and all the other stuff it was pretty idyllic and in some ways. But after that that’s when I got my eating. It got real on my eating disorder began and a lot of the early signs of my OCD and anxiety and depression started and I almost left around that time period. Well I almost got kicked out. Yeah. So I was 14 and I had been just struggling for the last couple of years and I knew that if I left I would be shunned and I’d be exhumed. But it was starting to feel like a possibility and I went to my first ever summer camp. I met a boy. And I started seeing what life could be like outside the cult. And I just still didn’t understand why Christians have why we had to fear other Christians so much and so I basically told my mom that like I don’t understand why we’re living this life. I don’t think it’s worth it. And that called for a huge Bible study where they spent like five hours yelling at me and freaking out on me for a very normal teenage statement. I think it was the cult leader. Finally like made me pray the specific prayer and I was supposed to be all better but in the morning I woke up and I remember just I can look back on what that was depression. But just as very dark heavy sadness because nothing was different. And I felt the same way and so I went told my mom and of course that to her. She’s like oh no you’re being self-willed. This is evil. I’m going to send you to your dad’s house. And she literally sent me downstairs to pack up my room to move to my dad’s house. And you have to remember that my dad was someone that we were taught to be afraid of and be scared of that he was violent. And my brother of course had had similar narratives pushed on him after he left. So I mean leaving would have meant losing everything. Everything I knew. And becoming like my dad which we were taught. He was this selfish evil awful person and that if you leave that’s what happens to you. And I remember I that I had this little rag rug in my basement and I was sitting on it and I was crying and crying and crying and I was about ready to pack up. I was like Okay I’m going to do this. And then the fear of everything hit me so hard. No it felt like waking up and finding a gun in your hand pointed towards your head like it was like I can’t do this I can’t go through what it means to to be shunned and I often look back at that especially since my brother died and I could have potentially had some years with him before he died and I regret being scared away. But at the same time I was 14. I was very young and I had this is all I know my whole life. And I told that story for years as it was my Christian salvation story because that’s what it was to me at the time as long as I choose Jesus instead of my dad basically right which is a choice no one should ever have to make in my opinion.

[00:41:42] Right. You’re a big spend that was and forced you into. They really did.

[00:41:49] And for four weeks after that I was mocked and I was like told that I wasn’t behaving the way that no one could trust me again. Mike the cult leader called me up front of everyone and was like you put on such a good show. How do we not know you’re pretending now. And I just remember feeling this like deep seated piece about it. And I think that’s because I gave up my doubts that day. I really really did. I was like OK it’s this way or it’s out and I can’t be out. So I’ve got to be all in and obviously there were a lot of times when I questioned it later. But I closed the door so hard I’m leaving and then just a couple years later when my brother committed suicide it was used as a way to like backup that choice like for you if you’d left you’d be dead too. So basically my childhood was very pretty split in my mind. Like before start my brother left and after my brother left right. And also just. And that decision to really changed things.

[00:42:59] There’s much is so much here that I want to say. Got it.

[00:43:07] There’s just so many parallels. It’s fascinating to me how many parallels there are you know in this small family called and then what you see in larger cults. I mean yes you know what you talked about as far as like having an eating disorder anxiety ocd. You know all those things are about Carol. Yep. And when you grow up in a situation where you have no control over anything. Yes. Where your thoughts are controlled your feelings are controlled everything is controlled by fear and you start to seek control in any way that you can get it. Yes. And you don’t even know you’re doing it you know. No you don’t. It’s amazing. You know what the human psyche will do to try to right the messed up circumstances that people can live in.

[00:44:01] And you know I’ve battled my own I’ve got anxiety that I’ve dealt with a lot of anxiety myself I have a little OCD tendencies Yeah.

[00:44:15] And you know there are things like that that are experienced by people who are in these cults and they don’t understand that you know one of the reasons they’re experiencing it the cult that they’re in and you know it’s just very sad and it hurts so many people. And it really does. Yeah. And then it really makes me sick. How your brother’s suicide was used to cement you know things because I know with Jehovah’s witnesses what they want.

[00:44:56] They want us. If we’re going to leave they were. They’re not going to help us. They want us to suffer and to have the worst life imaginable so that we can come back. Also they can say See we were right. Yep yep.

[00:45:11] You know it’s they are willing to do anything to watch you fail.

[00:45:20] You know whether that’s not teaching you basic life skills. Yes. Yes. Because you know when you leave you don’t know how to just pay your rent or get a job or anything.

[00:45:37] So that’s a big thing that we. I’ve realized since coming out is how ill equipped we were. I mean because we were taught there was a huge age hierarchy first of all my little brother and I were at the very bottom of the power structure.

[00:45:53] And so not only with that so everything we did was dictated to us by others. We were taught that you can’t trust yourself. Your heart’s evil your heart is wicked. If you trust your own choices that’s wrong. I once bought a pair of pants I really liked. They were cargo pants. I remember thinking I was really cute but I was told that was evil and wrong because they look too masculine. We were allowed to wear jeans. They just had to be a specific kind. But it was like that kind of thing like literally every choice was dictated by someone else. So when my younger brother I love him so much but when he was kicked out at 17 he had no skills no way to like you know manage money. He didn’t know how to pay bills. He didn’t know anything. And so of course he kind of crashed and burned and used some really negative coping skills because they were literally. He had no idea how to fend for himself and think for himself.

[00:46:46] And we’re taught was how to well in your case it may have been the hate others or in our case that I mean it was it was essentially that it was to hate their behavior. And honestly as much as we were taught you know kind of the love the sinner hate the sin type thing. The honest truth is we were judging other people very adversely for their for their cause. So that we can feel better about ourselves. That’s really what it was. So it was hating on me even if it wasn’t true hatred of. So you know we were hating on other people all the time so that we can feel better about ourselves and that like that’s all we had. And so now you leave and now you need to what are you going to rely on these people that you’ve judged adversely and hated for so long.

[00:47:34] You know that’s that’s such a mind warp.

[00:47:38] And that was one of the really interesting things coming back into contact with my brother and getting close with him again was hearing how much the cult beliefs impacted him like he had to rely on other people that he would talk about them in a way that was very much from the cult or he would feel really like. And obviously I can’t speak from his story by that there was just always this like the deep ingrained patterns in our brain to distrust everyone except for 14 people who really caused us a lot of problems.

[00:48:09] I don’t come by trust easy. No not at all. I don’t know that how you can. I don’t either not after something like that it is very difficult to do so.

[00:48:23] It really is.

[00:48:24] Which then makes it difficult to have you know truly great relationships with people because you have a heart. Yeah. Letting go. Yeah we’re all. Most of us who leave cults have issues with control and feeling out of control. Yeah.

[00:48:38] So yeah it is it is difficult but yeah it’s just I hate that they that you know your brother was used in that way and I know you know Jehovah’s Witnesses kind of have like this self-fulfilling prophecy where though they’ll tell people that you know here is what worldly people are on the outside. There are these people that essentially just basically have sex with anything that moves.

[00:49:02] Yeah. Will will kill and murder will murder or steal or do anything for themselves they’re all selfish. So then people who leave often fulfill that prophecy I know that they they become that because they think they need to in order to fit in. Yeah. And then life turns to garbage and then they come back to the cult and then the cult uses them as an experience example. Yeah. Like look how bad it is out there and that’s the same thing they did with your brother.

[00:49:31] Is just is so horrible that the way you see even in this small family called essentially it’s one narcissist teaching other people to be narcissists. Yeah.

[00:49:43] You see how they they manipulate everything to make themselves look good. Yes.

[00:49:53] And it’s so it’s so petty and you know even like your mom who you know had so much fear was probably I. I assume you know at the beginning maybe even a very humble person because often people with a lot of fear kind of can be at first and then and then once they start internalizing that narcissistic stuff then it all becomes about defensiveness and ego. And that humility is gone.

[00:50:25] And you know it’s just sad to see to see you know good people who are hurt.

[00:50:32] Yeah. End up internalizing and becoming so much of what you know this this narcissist happens to preach and that I imagine that that would have bled through. So you said you were homeschooled. Did it bleed through just in your relationship I assume with each other I mean you kind of look like you had to tell on each other and there was a huge tattletale culture.

[00:51:03] Yeah. And that caused a lot of issues. We also were never like we were taught that emotions were bad so that caused a lot of problems as you can imagine especially I am fairly stereotypical of like the creative personality. So I feel things really deeply. Yeah I I have a lot of emotions and I was never given the words or the ability to tell them so they often came out in destructive ways like you were saying like with the control thing with the eating disorder with self harm with other maladaptive behaviors that were just used as coping skills.

[00:51:40] Yeah. I that whole teaching about the heart being treacherous and who can know it and yet not trusting your own heart.

[00:51:46] I think that is that is just that.

[00:51:50] Well maybe it’s not the most but it has to be at least one of the most insidious and harmful things that is taught by a lot of these religions and cults.

[00:52:03] I honestly think it’s the most crippling and it’s the one that is the best for them for the coal leaders because it gives you a population of people who can’t trust themselves and who can’t make their own decisions and who are terrified of any internal feelings or beliefs or anything they might have because the heart is wicked and will lead you astray. And after I came out that was one of the most difficult things I had to face into I could face into a lot of the other things like OK I really hurt a lot of people. So I reached out and I apologized that I like I was able to face up to that before I was able to realize it like oh I can’t trust myself that has I’m still not there.

[00:52:50] And I think it will take a while because when you teach someone from the smallest of age that they’re they’re prone to wickedness and they’re evil at their core and everything their heart says.

[00:53:02] Like for example I really loved rock climbing and I got really into it and this was an as an adult in the cult and I was told I was told that I was only doing it because I was prideful and that I was wrong and I like got reamed out for something that I loved as a human like as a human. I found it really really satisfying. It’s like a puzzle you have to solve with your body like rock climbing is wonderful because of this idea that we can’t trust ourselves and things that we like probably aren’t right like that got taken away from me and that was that’s just one example of many of the way that not being able to listen to your own wishes and what’s really used against us. And similarly I imagine the concept of death to self this idea that like yourself is bad.

[00:53:53] And so you need to give it up was used especially in the context of like disagreements or anything like the idea was that you needed to let go of anything you want it so that the other person could get what they wanted.

[00:54:07] Oh yes.

[00:54:09] And so that was a really problematic idea especially when used by the cult leader because he could get us to do whatever he wanted. You know he got my mom to take a second mortgage out on her house to support him because he never worked through this idea. Right. And he you know just got that concept was constantly being told especially if we had any doubts or any concerns like Daddy yourself Daddy yourself used to say you should be lower than the dog dish like on the floor. Yeah. That was like a phrase that we use for how we should think of ourselves. Is that like even more humble than a dog dish. And I think that. That again was a problematic idea because then if you have any pride in yourself like oh I painted a cool painting or wow that business I started really worked or anything like that.

[00:55:00] That was being prideful you’re being evil. I once as a 13 year old learned to bake pie and I was really proud of myself for it. I taught myself. I got called out by the most gentle quiet person in the whole cult. The one who like never yelled at people but she wrote all these Bible verses down and told me I was being evil and that pride goes before a fall. All because I was proud of the fact that I could bake peach pie basically blindfolded.

[00:55:26] And you see that it’s not even like it’s not really even pride it’s just joy.

[00:55:34] That’s the thing. Looking back and my husband’s really helped me see this. He’s like are just being like you. So much of the characteristics of of me as a young person or called too much and too loud and evil and bad when it was really just I was a very exuberant very happy very full of life precocious little person. I mean I was reading I was painting and I was like doing all these things. And whenever I expressed any like happiness in it or like look what I can do like any little kid that got really beat out of me because if you’re if you have joy you don’t need them they are miserable so that you have to look to them. Well I remember almost to the day like when I looked around me and saw that my three older sisters and my mom were just always panicked and always anxious and always like worrying. And I realized that that was my problem. It wasn’t anything else it was that I wasn’t being scared enough so my anxiety really came really strong. I remember being anxious as a kid but once I realized that it was an essential way to survive it became like the main thing I leaned on because I’m anxious and I’m feeling guilty and I’m feeling scared then I can’t be going to hell because I’m aware that I’m sinning. So this idea that like you have to just feel this huge weight of guilt and sadness all the time is really assiduous and problematic because then anytime anytime I felt happy or comfortable I got terrified because of Oh no I forgot I’m probably sinning because of this idea that we could sin at any time and we had this really weird definition of sin sin must also be like conscious moral rebellion against God as opposed to like sending him thought word and deed like the evil Calvinists look through the thing. But the problem with that was that was so up to interpretation. So the cult leader I once got yelled at because I was helping my aunt fix a faucet and she wanted me to stop. And I’m like there’s water spraying all over the kitchen. I’m going to keep going on this. And I got called out as being evil and bossy and bad because I didn’t immediately listen to her. So and so I wasn’t consciously doing anything evil. I didn’t know right. But because they had higher authority they could tell me that I was and so that was just another level of like anxiety and insecurity that we lived under because you could be told at any moment that you did something evil. Another good example of this was when I was like 13.

[00:58:13] There were primarily women in the cult like I know that I was really I wanted to ask you about that because that stood out to me and is usually a recipe for abuse.

[00:58:24] Oh it was very much so. All the men in my family got excommunicated by the like my brother was 17 my older brother was in his twenties and my dad. So they were all excommunicated and then the only men in the cult were the cool brother. Obviously the coal into himself. It her son who as a human is a very like. He is. He’s wonderful. He’s one of my favorite people but he’s very passive and he’s not going to kick up a fuss unlike my brothers who both kicked up fusses and then the only other one was a young man who joined from the outside world who did so because he had a really difficult growing up and he also was someone who was really drawn to this like Prophet living the world with this belief that only a few people know like it was a very attractive hero narrative for him. Oh so so those are the only men in the group. Later there was another my stepfather joined similar very soft spoken very quiet. He he. And then my sister’s now ex-husband joined knowing it was a cult actually. And he joined because he was so in love with my sister and wanted to save her. And that didn’t end up happening. But it was really interesting that the only people who really lasted who were male were people who were either related to the cult leader or were very quiet easily led type type B personality. Do I do I am I correct in assuming that the males that were there even the passive ones were.

[01:00:16] Higher in the authority structure than any women or actually no.

[01:00:22] That was a really weird thing. So there’s a lot of things about our cult that are pretty obvious and normal.

[01:00:29] But then there are some really weird things. And this is one of them. It’s my oldest sister was second highest in the cold third before my aunt died but she really was incredibly passionate and really bought into everything. I mean she the cult closed down around her when she was about 13 which is kind of a perfect age for hero worship and like really wanting to become a certain way and so she was. She actually took over the cult although she had she can’t admit it. So but she took over the cult after the cult leader left. But it was really interesting looking at like the structure and how things were set up there was there wasn’t any map another man that was as high up as the cult leader. I think his brother was probably like force but he was constantly the cult leader with constantly shaming and like deriding the other adults in the group to bring them down and like have people have less respect for them. Whereas he would raise the younger people and I think that was because they were easier to manipulate. Yeah that makes my sister especially was really easy to manipulate and she really had a rough go of it because of that system. But yeah I know it was very untraditional in some other ways too like you think of cults lots of people think with long Jean skirts and no makeup and like all these things and we. Weren’t the best way to understand it is that all of my uncle’s personal opinions became our are our laws and so he believed that women were supposed to look a certain way so that they glorify God. That we were supposed to always wear makeup and even if we were jeans they had to be a certain kind and we had to look a certain way but it wasn’t your typical all right conservative look.

[01:02:31] So what was he getting out of it. Was it just power for him or because let’s face it a lot of people who do this do this for money or for sex for power. Like what was it for whom in particular.

[01:02:49] I think it’s a number of things. First off he had this idea of himself as like a tortured prophet who had these ideas and he during this whole time was producing movies writing numerous articles a week that were getting published. He was going on radio programs so he had an amount of influence that was really spoke to him as like a power hungry person.

[01:03:13] He also had a lot about why I do this podcast. I’m not going to be concerned until you start doing it with David Duke. OK.

[01:03:25] So there was that power. He also was able to really dictate other people’s lives which I think was important. He got a lot of money out of it and he was able to have us do what he wanted. There wasn’t sexual abuse thankfully. I’m really thankful for that. Yeah very funny. Yeah. Because that is a very that often goes hand in hand. It was primarily a pretty intense spiritual and emotional abuse.

[01:03:50] But fortunately that did not factor into it. I think he just got this narrative that he wanted himself to be of this like fighting profit. That’s what he really got.

[01:04:05] He just kind of had like an internal life that he created externally. You know what. Something was in his head. He he kind of made it happen.

[01:04:15] He could make it happen. Yeah. And in so many ways I mean we grew up cleaning his house for him and I gave him my a lot of my money.

[01:04:25] And I would buy him art supplies and I would model for him and all these different things. He was just very much treated as like the center of our universe and.

[01:04:37] We were talking about it later after he after the call ended and things and one of the things that he really used was this whole hero narrative this idea that it was us against the world that he was this persecuted person who got the truth and then shared it with us and the world just wasn’t ready for him and it’s a very attractive idea because it gives your life purpose. You think that you are part of this group were you you are supporting a prophet and you are helping truth happen and maybe you’re saving lives. Like it’s really attractive and hence he made it that of course. So he got a huge ego boost out of it. In addition to power he had all these people following that narrative. Like just basically worshipping him and a lot of ways and a pretty attractive thing for a narcissist.

[01:05:29] He became God. I mean you know everybody was at his whim and his dictate.

[01:05:35] And.

[01:05:36] Well yeah.

[01:05:37] And we thought of him as being like God’s mouthpiece basically and his brother would end almost all cult meetings talking about how we were nourished by the meat of this meeting today. And aren’t we so glad we’re not normal Christians who only get milk and all this.

[01:05:55] It’s so like it is. Yeah.

[01:05:57] Amazing how these similarities run. I know I know. I mean it’s just I think that Charles pays Russell who started Jehovah’s Witnesses in the eighteen hundreds. He said that he was God’s mouthpiece. He himself declared that. And you know you just see these people they just they’re getting something out of it even if it isn’t always as nefarious as some sort of you know horrific sexual abuse or whatever. Yeah it can be as simple as power as being able to end an ego boost. Yeah yeah yeah absolutely. So I’m going to go ahead.

[01:06:34] I was just going to say people who I’ve talked to since coming out who knew him in the past like my uncle who was excommunicated my mom’s brother. It’s really interesting to hear them describe him because he was the kind of person that’s just incredibly caustic and self-absorbed and he took like so many people just hate him as a human. But the people who were fragile or had trauma in their past or needed like a cause in their life those are the ones that got entrapped by him. That’s why my aunt married him. I mean he was this handsome well-spoken very competent man who was like I am you know who is like this prophet and this hero and there is this this mystic mystical aura about him that a lot of people who are more sensible were like what the actual belief. You know like this is not normal. But those of us who are either grown up in it. So we didn’t know anything else or came to it out of a place of trauma. He was so elevated and it makes perfect sense to me why he would want that is because he got to fulfill the idea of himself. He had his head which is something we rarely get as human in my opinion.

[01:07:49] Oh yeah for sure. I mean because we do have to live among the collective among the community it’s not all about us.

[01:07:55] Well it’s interesting because he seemed to have this idea of himself from very young. And so I like to think about like well when I was young I wanted to be a mother of 100 an artist a veterinarian. Like all these things like right.

[01:08:08] But I obviously that’s a possibility or a life I would want now. But he seemed to never be able to look at himself as this ideal human. And honestly his childhood was also full of a lot of trauma. His parents were extremely active politically. They would march against the gay movement. There was a lot of really and like anti-communist like some stuff that was sure ok whatever that’s your beliefs. That’s fine. But he really took on this idea that he was this lone hero. And it caused an incredible amount of problems for an incredible amount of people.

[01:08:47] And it’s amazing because you know you see this stuff and it’s just amazing how one person can take on something like that. And like you said it hurt so many people and it’s very sad. I mean even you can still have some measure of compassion for the person for you know just to realize that like yeah you know they were set on a path but for some reason that person bought into that path and didn’t wake up.

[01:09:15] Well I think that’s something really important to realize is that we as humans are fallible and we are very very flawed and so often there are things in our past that push us on a path we may not have been on otherwise. And wow I have incredible there’s a lot of hurt in that area. I’m I’m never I don’t I mean thought that I’m still like I haven’t forgiven him or whatever. Like I have but at the same time there’s so much hurt in that relationship. I mean I don’t think it will ever be resolved but I still can look at it kind of objectively and think like no.

[01:09:56] This happened. You have stuff in your past. I don’t know about and that’s what you did. And for example his brother has been the most difficult because my sister married the coal brother’s son.

[01:10:07] OK so two women from two different generations married into this other family from two different generations. We’re not related but we’re. So my sister since my sister married his son though the coal eater still lives in her basement. They live on the same property as her in-laws and the coal eaters brother. Still convinced that everything his brother taught was right and that’s largely due to the fact in my opinion that he based his whole life around. Supporting his brother and doing everything his brother wanted. And if he believe now at the age of 70 plus that his brother was wrong his whole life comes down like there’s everything that he worked for and fought for and did only exist within this framework. This idea that his brother is a prophet and unique and saving the world. And so I say that to say that like I feel very lucky that I was as young as I was when I came out because I was able to rebuild my life and a lot of ways. And so if I’m I still am.

[01:11:12] Let’s talk about how you got to that point. So you had mentioned that you know you had this kind of like you know these two areas of your life. There was a warrior. Your brother left and then your older brother and then after he left. Yes. So then you know as you were a teenager or whatever you know how did you progress to this point where you did eventually leave.

[01:11:34] So I had a lot of doubts even though I gave up most of them but I still you know it was difficult I graduated high school when I was 15. Yeah well I’m very willing. It was a it was a snail mail college or high school. I got a diploma. I really wish I could have had gone to regular high school because I could have done like Advanced Placement things. But anyway so at 16 I started going to college and that sort of helped me start getting out there. But at the same time a lot of my friends were what I thought were fellow Christians. But there were people I couldn’t trust and I couldn’t like I wanted to go to church with them but I couldn’t. It was very complicated. I made some deep friendships that I had to excommunicate people from. So my teenagers were pretty fraught as far as I would find people that I loved and wanted to be with and then they’d leave because of the cult. And that was really difficult because you like them. Yes. So that would be really painful. People will either leave and kind of like never talk to me again because they’re like well this girl’s crazy or they would love like I would like my best friend of years I ended up having to shun her based on she was pro-Israel and we were anti-Semitic. And that was really painful. And that was one of the decisions along with in the same time period having to shun my younger brother who’d been my best friend. My closest person the whole time were the things that really started kind of pulling off the boards on the windows of my life in a way like really letting light get in and let me really start doubting this idea it was those really painful moments that helped me understand then right around this time my brother commit suicide and then a couple years later my grandmother who was a really important part of the cult and part of my life she died at the age of 94 which much less sad than my brother but still like it was a big change. Yeah. And then my aunt cleaner’s wife committed suicide shortly thereafter. Oh no. Really. Yeah. And that was an incredibly painful thing. She’d been sick for a really long time. She had a brain tumor when I was 14 which just exacerbated all of her mental issues. She devolved from this meticulous housekeeper that just her whole home was beautiful she dressed impeccably. She was going to be a concert pianist and really descended into madness. And by the end she was keeping bits of candy wrappers because of the color she was writing nonsense on her walls. She really descended into an intense madness that the coal eater blamed on the demons because the work he was doing on the internet was so important that Satan had to personally attack them. And there’s no way it’s just normal mental illness. No it has to be the demons. And so when she committed suicide he called her a martyr. He said that Satan himself threw her off the bridge and it was treated just completely differently than my brother’s suicide. Of course no of course. Wow. And my my aunt committed suicide because she wrote this really long letter because she said that she has to you will still be on this earth and her presence was causing God pain and she had to die in order to glorify him. And that was really difficult. It was difficult a lot of ways in some ways it was like she was she had suffered so much throughout her life. She was one of the most tortured humans I’ve ever met. She married my uncle after having an intense depressive episode where she attempted to commit suicide. I’ve had all these other issues and he I found out later especially he was incredibly abusive to her and always without a husband can be really oppressed her. She was anorexic and he encouraged that. He told her that when she gained any weight she was ugly and seemed to lose more weight. It was just an incredibly toxic awful relationship. And it was the one that I idolized growing up thinking that’s what an ideal marriages. So right now was really painful too but it was after that that my uncle descended deeper into. His really intense belief because my aunt as sick as she was was. It’s hard because she was also a fanatic. I mean she was his original fanatic a lot right. Right. But she was she had just a touch more compassion and kindness and she was a zealot. But more so for like the biblical Jesus in some ways. And so she kind of helped him from going off the rails. I mean he was off the rails but she helped him from going way way way out a little bit.

[01:16:53] Yeah just a little bit.

[01:16:55] Yeah it’s hard to stop a runaway train but we didn’t know how much until she was gone and that’s when he really went off the rails and became more and more racist and more anti-Semitic around this time period. I went on a couple mission trips with my best friend to join the cult as a grown up because of it she was an abusive family situation. How it always goes. But he went on a couple mission trips to Haiti when I was first time I think I was 21 and then I was twenty three like young adults. And but around this time was when my uncle got more and more racist. And so while we were okay to go to Haiti there was a lot of talk about how it’s you know the Haitians people’s fault because they believe in voodoo and that’s why all these bad things have happened and like there was a lot of racist belief that went unchecked.

[01:17:52] The thing that hurts aren’t the Haitian people largely black.

[01:17:57] Yeah that’s yeah. But he I mean somebody had to fund this.

[01:18:04] Was the mission trip trip through your calls or was it. No no no. It was through a different mission. No one was outside of it.

[01:18:13] We did separate fund. It was my sister my best friend is a nurse and it was a nursing thing. So she went by herself. And that was that was OK. But it was definitely not through.

[01:18:27] Yeah I was trying to figure out how this races through sending you to help you.

[01:18:35] We had permission to go which is still one of the most surprising. Yeah that is very surprising. But I think one of the reasons was was that there was this like. Double thought of like black people are evil but we should help them.

[01:18:49] They need us. Yeah. They need us.

[01:18:51] The white knight become come in which is crazy because when I went there I mean I learned a lot more from them than I learnt than they me. I know. Of course I did. And I. It’s still one of the most wonderful experiences of my life and I think it did help me in coming out and just realizing how big the world is and how much people can suffer. And yet they can still be wonderful amazing kind people the people I met in Haiti were. It’s just hard to explain how amazing and loving an opening they were. If even like across the language barrier.

[01:19:33] And yes I really credit that with helping me kind of find a way out but I was around this time that my uncle was writing a lot more. He was on a lot of political pop pot wasn’t pot guess it was radio stations. I should mention we were taught from a young age that politics was like really important. So I started I mean I think my first memory of picketing is when I was like three. We did pro-life picketing but we also did free speech and stuff against Israel. And I mean I grew up have distinct memory that would be called the.

[01:20:16] We would call the senators and vote against bills. We were told to do and I have distinct memories of like sitting doing my chores in the kitchen while being on the phone and like. My name is the dozens that would make up names a lot of the time so we could call more. I’m from Boston so and I vote against this bill. And so my uncle had always been very like politics are like we have to change politics. He got more and more intense and he was talking with more outright people and then he decided that he had solved the age old question of free well. And he came up with the idea that Jesus sinned by letting freewill into the world. That’s why he had to die Jesus was. Yeah I know. So fortunately all of us who still believed we were Christians and we’re biblical Christians this did not strike this did not work for us. It was the one idea that he came up with that was too far and it sparked a six week battle in the cult where my mother and my sister who edited all of his articles and typed everything up for him were like you cannot publish this. This is not right and we all fought against him. Well especially my family the other family was quieter but he just kept saying no this is right I’m right. And finally at the end of the six weeks he goes Well I have an announcement that after much thought the Holy Spirit has told me that this is not a biblical idea. And he basically. Agreed with all the points we’d made but claimed that the Holy Spirit told him instead of six weeks of us. Yes yes. And then quite out of the blue just a week later he sent an email to everyone saying he could no longer be leader of this congregation that we were too unruly and evil and he was quitting.

[01:22:12] I have to stop on that for a minute.

[01:22:14] I love that I love these people these cult leaders are so fragile.

[01:22:23] I know at the same time that they’re so narcissistic and they’re just bullies is all they all get and they get punched in the nose one time and they won and take their ball and go home.

[01:22:36] And the best part about this is that he had told us our whole lives because we did proofs. He said if I ever do anything wrong I just want you to tell me. Like my whole life. Like every every month at least we hear this. Right. And then we finally have an issue that’s worth going to the mat on and that we need to call him. On and he acts like the biggest baby in the world and he loses it and he’s just like he. Quits. No I mean let’s face it.

[01:23:10] Look and I’m not trying to make this political.

[01:23:15] I am not a person to be quite honest I’m not a Democrat nor a Republican. They have me. I’m just me and I have my own ideas and I don’t need to pick a side because they’re so polarized and everything. But you know let’s you know we have in office right now a man who thinks it’s those qualities that does the Vatican that you you say anything about him you punch him in the nose a little bit. He goes off on ones like a baby. Yeah. It’s it’s amazing. You know when you see someone who is a narcissist and has that big of an ego. Yeah. They cannot take any criticism at all. No not at all. And it’s the it’s honestly it’s almost as sad on a level. Oh it is because what you see almost as a small child that has never fully grown up and matured. Yeah. You know my dad was that way. Somewhat. You the type who I mean as soon as you questioned him on anything you know. Oh everybody’s persecuting him and everybody’s ganging up on him. When where you know the things that he would literally do to us all the time. Well of course you know and it’s it’s amazing to see how fragile these cults are. And it just makes you wonder you know years was a small family called. And so yeah the numbers were different. But I’ve always wondered you know enough people were to stand up against a larger cult no less. Let’s take Jehovah’s Witnesses for example.

[01:24:53] If enough people because I know there are a lot of people who are n who physically n but mentally they’re out there.

[01:25:03] They have to physically be and because you know they know that if they left they would lose their family and stuff. Yeah. But you just have to wonder if there were ever enough people that could get together at the same time and just say no I’m not doing this anymore. I’m not playing this game. And if all those people who had doubts and if all of those people who knew for sure that it was wrong would just at one time stand up and voice themselves a very public way. What would happen you know would the leaders at the top who are just bullies would they crumble would they cave. We’ve seen even in Jehovah’s Witnesses in the organization there have been policy changes at times. It’s usually because of outside governmental pressures. Yeah but they they do have the ability to make changes. And I just wonder you know at what point would it all come crumbling down or at what point would they at least have to make changes even if they said that the Holy Spirit revealed it to them to save face on some level so that they could keep their power. You just have to wonder what would happen and it’s just so it’s so petty and silly to watch somebody like your uncle just tap out because one time you all stood up.

[01:26:32] You know honestly I think that’s why I’ve been so drawn to dystopian literature throughout my teenage years. You see that happened in those books often not the best of them are the minority makes it a majority and finally like stands up to this tiny amount of people that are hurting everyone right. You know that’s like basically the plot of Divergent series is the idea that people finally realize that what they’re living in is wrong. And I think that we do have an immense amount of power. But as a culture it’s really hard to stand up and it all come together and unite against them but because we are such a small cult we were able to do that in a way that I don’t think is possible when you have ten times the numbers that we did. I mean we were so small that one voice was enough and it’s interesting looking back to my sister my oldest sister who was higher up in the cult was the most impacted I think by the cult leader whereas I who was way way down like at the bottom. I was more impacted by her and by my mother because the cult leader some of the doubts that I had were when he would get all butt hurt. Over nothing like he he he would spend hours yelling at my mother who to me was just like the most amazing woman. That’s all I knew that I or my sister. These people who I thought were like holy and wonderful and and good. He’s telling them they’re going to hell or that he’s comparing them to Miriam in the Bible who gets leprosy for standing up to Moses like all these things. And so for me seeing that really caused me to doubt him as a person in a way that I don’t think would have happened if he hadn’t been so petty.

[01:28:24] Yes that makes sense. It is funny how sad how you know it ends up you know one of the things I’ve talked about with my wife and I think I may have mentioned on a podcast before is just that have the greater colts.

[01:28:45] Yeah. And then you often have Colts within the Colts and often they are family systems. Yeah. No. My dad was very authoritarian my my wife’s dad was very authoritarian. Yeah.

[01:28:58] And yes you see the cult within the cult and it’s just this family and so just like you you know the way you looked up to your your mom and your sister. You know we looked up to our our parents you know whether it was my dad or my mom depending on the situation or same with my wife and this is interesting how those power structures are then made into these tiny powers within the cult.

[01:29:29] It really is interesting. It is.

[01:29:31] And that’s something that we noticed more once we came out is how much our family structure the unit with my mom. And as for girls and my little brother really got so I mean I think a lot of issues that would have just come from being a family and having lots of women got just magnified and twisted because of the belief system and because my sister suddenly like took kind of the like cult leader role in our family and she would individually like tell us what we couldn’t couldn’t do and she would give us proof from her place that like it was like a secondary cult in my family in a way that it wasn’t quite the same for the other family. Partly I think because the cleaner’s brother was his older brother and while he idealized everything his brother did he still there were some aspects where he was able to be like oh that’s just my brother. He’s being a little absurd in a way that we who believed him absolutely you just couldn’t do right.

[01:30:33] He had he had a tiny bit more perspective. He grew up with them. You know he’s seen his brother you know you know act out in different ways.

[01:30:44] However it’s been a power dynamic.

[01:30:46] Yeah yeah.

[01:30:48] Whereas for us he was and a lot of ways. Yeah. So.

[01:30:54] So then how did you go on this this trip. This mission trip you come back and then you know this issue comes up within the cold and your uncle takes it very badly and basically says I’m out you know. Was that it was that the the end of the cold. Or how did things go after that.

[01:31:15] No it was a very long process. Collier left and it was really shocking. He left by email. He didn’t even like come and tell us. He just sent a mass email. And it caused a lot of issues in my family because my mom and my sister were so vocal and were such a key part in them. I mean him quitting. There was a lot of like pain there and sadness and like hurt but didn’t know you’re in a cult. You thought we were Christians. We thought that what we did was unusual but it wasn’t problematic. I have recently found a letter that my sister wrote me when I was 14 my older sister. And it starts out with. I’m sorry I wasn’t kinder to you about your fears that we were in a cult and I didn’t take you seriously.

[01:32:11] And then it goes on to say well technically according to Webster’s dictionary we are in a cult. But that doesn’t matter because we have the right set of beliefs and so they come up against this over and over I mean people would hear you’re in the small home church about oh cool. And so when he left. It wasn’t like really oh we’re waking up. We were still so indoctrinated with this idea that we must the truth. The beliefs were so solid and my sister I’m pretty sure she doesn’t understand how this happened and she really took over and she she led what happened next. She would dictate how the meetings went. For a while there we were like each given a week of the year to do a presentation and she would be really harsh and critical. For example I at twenty four her twenty three I gave my little speech for the cult meeting and it wasn’t good enough.

[01:33:13] To do it again and like re research and so it was a very weird nebulous time period where we were starting to like come into our own but we were still very crippled by this idea that we were perfect and we had this idea. I mean because you grew up way been one way in the cold and then having to present this united perfect family front to the world it was really complicated.

[01:33:43] You can take the person out of the cold but you can’t take the cold out of the person. Not well known. Right right right. Anyway you know just because you leave doesn’t mean that it’s over. Well absolutely not. Because he left. Yeah.

[01:33:59] Since we felt that what we were doing was still valuable right. Obviously it was about two years of that and in the middle of those two years my sister decided to suspend the because we weren’t allowed to date. I was twenty three and I we were never supposed to date or anything it was all this controlled the cult leader literally picked husbands for people.

[01:34:26] There was almost an arranged marriage sort of thing especially for one sister.

[01:34:31] She did have an arranged marriage basically that be difficult in such an insular cult. Because there aren’t many.

[01:34:36] No there wasn’t anyone and there was this idea that God would just bring your person which just doesn’t happen especially if you’re crazy.

[01:34:46] And because we know a lot of us worked at the same place because what we did for a living was dictated what like I went to college but I was encouraged to not go to college for anything that I couldn’t do at home with children. So things that I want to do like nursing or was I’m a bit of a geology buff and I really want to do that but you can’t do that and have kids and like all these things were still really like dictated but for me what changes when my sister decided that a single girl should be allowed to date was very exciting because there were a lot of us there. There was my my one sister married the only guy in the cult that was available and then my other sister married a guy that she’d known that that film the cult leaders book independently and like that meant he loved her husband and he picked that person for her but the rest of us had no opportunity.

[01:35:51] There just wasn’t a chance and we would occasionally meet people in the outside world bring them back. I had one that lasted as long as a year and half but he eventually left after realizing we were a cult. He was brave enough as a young young person to give a list. He wrote down a long letter about his issues with the cult and it’s something that I didn’t know till later and I’m still impressed with him about that.

[01:36:15] But when my sister decided we could start dating that was really when my world started opening up. I got on eHarmony and within three days met my husband Ron which was very problematic for my family because they thought we were just going to start dating around and I found someone I could be serious with almost immediately. And for me talking to him who he was a pastor’s kid from the Midwest he’s very grounded and logical and trying to explain my quote unquote Christian beliefs to him helped me kind of see the chasm there and that we were so different especially when I started talking about excommunication. I think that was the biggest thing that he was just like you did what. Especially around my little brother and my best friends and realizing that those weren’t things I could stand behind and maybe I didn’t have to.

[01:37:07] And it was that idea that really helped me start recognizing how problematic our belief systems had been and that maybe we weren’t what we thought we were right. And so it was that discussion like as he was he was I don’t know why he stuck around. My family was really awful to him. They even though I was an adult they put intense rules on us like we could only talk to hours at a time twice a week maybe we weren’t supposed to text each other or email each other and we were in two different cities 200 miles apart. And so it’s not like we could just hang out all the time either and it was through that period and seeing my mom especially really go crazy because before the cult leader had been kind of above her and so she couldn’t go as nuts as she went with us. And she just kind of treated me like I was 15 and dating an evil person and it was just a really awful situation. But it was through that that I was able to see that oh my family’s not infallible. And our belief systems are whack. For me that’s what really helps. My oldest sister around the same time started talking more seriously with her ex-husband that they were married at one point they’re divorced now but he was the one who joined the cult knowing that it was a cult. Oh yes. He joined to help get her out but it was from her perspective an arranged marriage because she never shouldn’t have the same feelings and the cult leader kind of made it happen. But he really helped her and me because I was pretty close with him. Still am helped. Like I started slowly pointing out things that the cult did that were really wrong and really unbelievable. And so it was like a slow progression for my family that kind of all like realize that what we believed was incorrect. And my family I think was a little more ready to believe that because my sister was so intense in that belief and she’d always been the leader for our family since my dad left. And so we are able to follow her whereas the other family in the cult which was the cult eaters brothers family much much slower to follow because of course he still believed that what his brother did was right and he actually excommunicated all of us for a while. Specifically my older sister but kind of cut us all off for a couple months and then realized that I wouldn’t really work since his son married one of us. And so if he cut us off he’d lose like everything so.

[01:39:58] So how are you. How was the shunning then.

[01:40:01] You know you said earlier it sounds like the fact that you shunned that you excommunicated I think was a term that used you know your brother your best friend like that was kind of a pivotal moment when you were talking with your now husband about that. It’s kind of one of the things that I guess opens your eyes to the fact that this wasn’t a good way to be.

[01:40:30] It really did. I had always struggled with that. I remember like a lot of my doubts after my brother left were like why do we have to live this way. Other people don’t lose people from their lives. Other people don’t. I mean have hired a lot of extended family that we were completely cut off from. And we had to shun and I thought OK well that’s what we have to do but it never sat well with me. So when my husband basically sat there on Skype kind of like we are now told me like I don’t understand why that why you did that. I was able to start thinking about it and start realizing that maybe I didn’t have to do it that way. And I was the first among my family to really shun the idea of shunning life. And I reached out to so many people that I had shunned or had gotten shunned by the church that I was in the cult. For example I reached out to my little brother first and got him back in the family. I reached out to my best friend who she became a missionary and was out of the country but we were still able to like resolve. I was still like within the last couple weeks I remembered someone that I may have really hurt and I reached out to them. So that’s been a big part of my coming out of the Colts is reaching out to those people that I shut out of my life trying to explain kind of where I was coming from but also own the fact that I did that because I think one of the biggest part of this and one of the things that really separate a lot of us in this situation are being able to own what you did versus just saying that all happened to you. And that’s been a lot of problems in my personal family my life you know with my sisters. Some of them can still have a hard time owning the fact that they made choices in the Colts because we were so young and we weren’t doing our best. I recognize that. But for me it’s been really important to me to own what happened and to say I’m for it. I had quite a few friends that I got into the Colts who left or who got excommunicated and reaching out to those people and saying you know I had no idea. I’m really sorry. Whatever I did that hurt you I apologize has been really important for me as a human and also to feel like I have some level of control and almost everyone I think there’s only been one or two but almost everyone has responded with intense kindness and grace and love and especially my best friend who I unfortunately communicated her right before her mother died of brain cancer and I lost. She had a she. She was my first long distance friend only like an hour away but I lost that entire community. So I got pretty close with them but she who I think had more reason to be angry than most. I was just so gracious and so kind and so loving about it and I have another friend who she actually told me she’s like I knew you guys were in a cult and I knew that my only hope of helping you because I knew you had a good heart was to not get excommunicated. So she did everything she could. She stopped coming to the cult meetings because she knew her at meetings but she did everything she could to stay in my life and be there for me. And she’s been one of the most helpful people coming out of it and it’s been amazing coming out and realizing that these people that we were taught were evil and bad and all these things are so much more kind and loving and gracious than we thought we were the cream of the crop ever were. And it’s really helped me as especially to realize that grace comes in many forms and that grace and love it. That’s the thing I can really believe in is giving grace to others and giving love to them. And I don’t know. Obviously religion is still really painful and fraught for me. But that idea that like you can forgive and you get Grace and you can give love was so foreign because we were taught that you couldn’t do that unless you agreed 100 percent with the other person’s attitude and lifestyle. Recognizing that I can no give unconditional love has just been the most amazing experience of my life.

[01:45:07] Oh absolutely. Oh that’s beautiful. It reminds me of you. I hope I don’t get this wrong. I’ve never been in a 12 step program but I know I know that one of the steps is to make amends you know and and you have to think about it you know that person who’s making amends. Many times they’re making amends for things that they did while they were drunk or high or in their disease as they say.

[01:45:33] You know while those things contributed to it they don’t excuse all of it you know. Yes. And so there has to be some understanding for it which you know you’re experiencing through making your own amends. There’s an understanding on these other people’s parts.

[01:45:48] But hopes to see that the person is taking their own accountability and responsibility for what they did. And you’re doing that you know by by apologizing. Well I think that that’s been one of the biggest things for me that has helped me is just being really transparent about. I’m just doing my best and I know that I.

[01:46:15] Up I don’t if I could say that real word but my therapist said I should start swearing because we weren’t allowed to. So it. Was fact though you can say it was that it was a really fucked up situation. Really really shitty. And being able to like own that and move forward I think has been the most important part of my recovery and being able to say. I still don’t know. There was a moment I was in residential treatment for an eating disorder a few months ago still working on that but in residential is really interesting because we shared so much about our stories and everyone had so much trauma and sadness but they were all so gracious to me particularly around since I was raised to be so homophobic. I am learning how to interact with people that know how to like gay people and how to like what I should say and what I shouldn’t say. I made some a few mistakes but everyone was just so kind and like we know your heart’s in the right place. We know that you’re trying. There should be. It’s just so wonderful to experience Grace and this love from people. I was taught a work capable of it b weren’t worth it and you know get to see this from people that I wasn’t I was never allowed to be friends with. And it’s been really a wonderful blessing to. Know to own what happens and own the mistakes I made and just receive love.

[01:47:52] Well you know you have to think about you’re kind of doing right now like the opposite of shunning you’re going back. You know even among people I don’t know if you would ever would you have in the family court would you have said that you shunned gays or black people or.

[01:48:13] Yeah. OK. So you called it shining then. OK. Well we call the excommunication OK but it’s the same idea. OK so the same. So you’re learning how to now accept those people.

[01:48:27] Yeah and and may I ask is it is it still hard though the guilt is the difficult thing because we were difficult thing.

[01:48:37] That’s the thing. It’s not I.

[01:48:40] Sound like you didn’t buy it 100 percent anyway so that probably helps. But the problem was that we were taught that if someone especially if they claim to be a Christian and were gay or were living with their.

[01:48:55] Or were for example like an interracial couple that was really wrong that we couldn’t be friends with them. There’s a passage somewhere in the. New Testament that talks about you shouldn’t even eat with a center that says Yes constantly. And that was the most difficult thing was I was really excited to be able to have friends of different persuasions and be able to just give love to them and I still do that. But the guilt hasn’t is still there. There’s still so much like you haven’t reprove them you haven’t told them it’s bad that they’re sleeping with their boyfriend therefore you’re evil and you’re going to hell. It’s like that narrative is still very strong in my head. The more that I act against it and the more that I. Make rational choices to have gay friends and have friends of different beliefs and.

[01:49:50] All of this the better it is and it’s the volume is just really slowly turning down on the cultists and the guilt.

[01:49:59] It’s very slow but it is going away on a Jehovah’s Witnesses while they were always super. You know there’s one thing I’ve got to give Jehovah’s Witnesses is they were always very accepting of all people as far as as far as race or ethnicity goes. Yeah. They were very progressive in that way though. I honestly. Have to wonder whether or not some of that at the beginning wasn’t just an easy way to get members. Yeah you know because the other religions that wouldn’t have been allowed. But if they accepted you know black members then that helped grow their numbers up. You know maybe I’m being a little too critical there. I don’t know. Maybe they did have a good heart. And if that’s the case you know that’s a beautiful thing and yeah they’ve always been very accepting in that way. Jehovah’s Witnesses are absolutely. Absolutely look the Bible has has has verses that. It takes some apologetics to make it sound like the Bible is OK with homosexuality. No kidding. Really it’s a difficult thing to get around. And you know you can describe it to you know it was that place and time or you can look up certain words and and try to make it means something a little bit different. But you know whether in the Hebrew or the Greek but it’s it’s not really easy to get around that. And the fact is that Jehovah’s Witnesses you know are kind of bible literal literalists. I mean they really take a lot of it fundamentally. And so they do actively preach against homosexuality. Yeah. And so happened in my cult. Right. So it’s very we’ll say some people will say Jehovah’s Witnesses are not homophobic because they’re not like again. It’s coming back to you know loving the San hater hating the San loving the center and trying to separate those two out. But it is very difficult at the same time when you have been taught you look down upon those people and to look at them a certain way to look at them as being worthy of eternal judgment by your god it is very difficult to separate that those two things out and they really talk about Jehovah’s Witnesses especially. It’s really ramped up as as gay culture has been more and more widely accepted which is a beautiful thing. I’ll never forget the song by Macklemore won love. I think it is that song when it came out really hit me hard because I didn’t want to hate gay people like I had kind of roundabout been thought to do that.

[01:53:17] That song really impacted me I love that song and just remember though you know I think there are so many people though that while they may claim Well we’re not homeless homophobic it’s just you know the Bible’s happens to say this thing. Yes you are absolutely homophobic.

[01:53:36] You know there are lots of ways to couch your beliefs so that they don’t sound as bad as they are. Yes. And I think in systems like the call and it sounds like a Jehovah’s Witness. You’re taught all of that. Yes.

[01:53:48] Yes absolutely there’s so many tricks we had to perform on our own mind to get around loving to judge people.

[01:53:55] And don’t forget that you’re being loving and if you don’t judge them you’re not loving them.

[01:53:59] Yes we were talking shunning was loving it loving because you’ll make them feel bad and they’ll come back to the only one true path you have to tell them the truth the whole truth and if they don’t like it that’s their fault.

[01:54:10] But right. Maybe they’ll look back in the future and oh like yeah they were right. Right. And that’s you saying that’s right.

[01:54:18] And these and Green’s thoughts and feelings of people you know they they don’t die easily. Now I know it’s tough for people and I just think it’s something that needs to be said is that you know we when we see somebody that is is trying to do the right thing when they’re when they’re trying to get over this stuff. Yeah we do have to be patient with them because these things they’re ingrained from the time that people sometimes you know from their formative years in a town that they’re children and yet it’s not easy just to you can change the way you think. But the way you feel. A lot of times lags behind.

[01:54:58] That’s the really big thing that I’ve noticed is the real disconnect between mental belief and then the rest of it because there’s a lot of things that logically I can look at and think OK that was wrong. I’m not there anymore. Say for example I have pretty severe PTSD from the entire experience and logically I can look and think OK I shouldn’t be freaked out when someone just mentions the word thin but emotionally and like all those pathways in my brain there’s so many things that can trigger even a smell like you have a flashback and it’s just like logically I understand this isn’t the way that I feel and logically I know I am a grown woman who lives in my own house who’s in a different state from everyone else who’s in the Colts first person not to be excommunicated who moved away like. I recognize that but there’s still this huge part of me that little girl that was taught that you know you’re constantly at risk for sinning and if you send a note repent in time you’re going to go to hell and you have like all these rules and laws and things to follow that becomes like literal pathways in our brain that take a really long time to fix. I think that’s an understanding that no it’s not. It takes a while.

[01:56:25] Has been helpful. For sure. For sure. And I think that society at large needs to understand that. I think that we have. We have a culture now that is super focused on certain things that are hurtful things but culture has come a long way.

[01:56:45] Yeah and sometimes it’s it’s easy to focus on how far we have to go and not to appreciate how far we’ve come.

[01:56:53] That’s been a big thing for me too. It’s like it’s hard to not feel especially because you know healing is linear. You can have moments that feel like in the beginning but it’s been helpful to remember that like I am a lot farther along than I used to be. But I think this idea in our culture that like mental health is not same as physical health. And it’s your fault in some ways. I really got pretty injured when I was first coming out. I just got married I just moved away from the state where the cult was and I went to a doctor. I’m really depressed. I’m suicidal. I’m really scared and she put me right on some really addictive meds and told me that as soon as I just if I just journal my story and went to therapy for a month or two I’d be fine which is not even slightly been my experience.

[01:57:46] And she set me up to think that like I’m broken if I don’t get better fast enough and that is just I think comes down to not understanding mental health and how living in one experience for years and years and years really impacts your future. I mean I like to liken it to since we were so legalistic and so intense that like it’s kind of like and in finding nemo when the fish are in the fish tank. They’re in a tank. They have walls. They know every inch of that tank. And yes they’re very very shut off and closed but it’s safe. And it’s known and you know the dangers and you know the risks. And then you get out and you’re in the open ocean and you have never been there before and you don’t know what you’re doing. And it’s hard to not miss the safety of the rules. The fish tank you know. And so that for me coming out was really difficult. And suddenly not having everyone in my family tell me what to do especially because I was the youngest girl and I was constantly told what to do by other people how to be what color to paint my nails.

[01:58:52] Now you have responsibility for yourself. And it’s kind of horrifying.

[01:58:59] It’s like it’s like you only eat one meal for your whole life and then all of a sudden you’re in front of a buffet and you don’t know what to do. And it’s it’s scary. And then you have guilt because there’s parts of you that do miss your negative coping skills and miss the laws of the Colts and miss the way things were ordered as abusive and wrong as it was. You knew it like I knew. I knew it. And that’s all I’d ever known. And so coming out and I can drink alcohol now and I can kiss my boyfriend if I want and all of this stuff was just really overwhelming.

[01:59:38] And it’s taken a long time to process and I still have a lot to go but I think that that’s an important thing when dealing with people who either are shunned or are coming out and maybe shining is just recognizing that it takes a really long time to fix those broken places in your brain and just give as much grace as you can because you don’t know everyone’s story. You know you don’t know what happened to them.

[02:00:09] I really do believe that that old quote that be kind for everyone you meet is fighting their own battle is very accurate.

[02:00:16] Very true very true. So see where did everybody end up.

[02:00:30] You know you don’t have to address individuals. We don’t we don’t have to know where each individual ended up. But I mean it sounds like the court kind of dissolved is that it.

[02:00:42] It did dissolve in a lot of ways. Everyone in my family who’s still living is either in the same town or within a couple hours. I’m the furthest away and we’re planning to move farther. So location wise that’s what happened but I think in a lot of ways it’s really interesting looking at how people have progressed belief wise because the three of us. My best friend and my what my single sister and me we kind of came out quicker because we had partners or people in our life that we could trust that were outside of the cold whereas the older girls and my mother my mother remarried and he was he became a Christian in the cult. So he like she didn’t have any perspective. And similarly with my my sisters who both married people who were in the cult and I think that that was a really big divide and still is in. Like I feel incredibly blessed to have my husband who’s been really patient and loving and supportive and helped me see things in a different light. And so that was a really big chasm for a while and there were some really awful moments where after the Colts was quote unquote ended and after you were in a cold they still acted the same way. Specifically to me like threatening me with execution for moving away even when we were supposedly not practicing excommunication anymore and just it took a long time for us to realize for everyone to realize how damaging the way that we talk to each other the way we interacted the way we told on each other and there was a telephone game always being played.

[02:02:28] So my family has really struggled especially because for so long we were forced to be really really close to people. You know if you have only 14 people in the world you can trust you get close. But then when you realize that you have a whole world of people out there that you can trust and that you love live differently and you can move away and still love your family. It’s been really complicated and I and a lot of ways I mean I was one of the first people to start reaching out and unchanging people. I moved away. I was the first one to get therapy specific for the cold.

[02:03:09] I have done residential treatment like I was kind of in the front. And that caused a lot of problems in my family because as one of the youngest for me to be going ahead it was pretty normal.

[02:03:28] No problem. This. The family rules the family. Yes.

[02:03:32] Yes. And there was one moment specifically where towards after we decided that we were in a cult more trying to come out of that I tried to act like we weren’t in a cult. My entire family sided against me and told me I was able to my I going to hell. That was horrifying because I thought that we were all on the same page and we really worked. It was a really awful thing because it was my oldest sister just not being able to come to terms with the fact that we weren’t the court anymore and there wasn’t a power structure and all this stuff. But that for me was a really important turning point because I began to realize that I could be autonomous. My family wasn’t always right and I had the ability to make choices on my own and make pretty damn good choices well good for you.

[02:04:24] Yeah.

[02:04:25] And it was an awful way to get there and it really kicked off my PTSD and a lot of issues I have with my family. And there are a lot of things I don’t know if I’m ever gonna be able to really talk out especially with my two older sisters.

[02:04:37] I don’t know if I’m ever gonna be able to be like you really fucked me up and I get that you are a kid the cult too but I have acknowledged what I’ve done and I need that from you. I don’t think that’s ever going to happen. But that’s what. No send letters or for. Is you know right now send letters.

[02:04:55] Yeah I know what you’re talking about where you write something out. It’s more it’s really for you you’re writing to the other person but it’s a way of getting things out.

[02:05:05] Yeah well it’s a way of getting things out hopefully because at this point me going to my sister’s and being like you messed me up. I don’t think that would be helpful for them or their recovery.

[02:05:14] And you know for me you can’t get water out of a dry well you know if that person doesn’t have it to offer right now. If they’re not in that space you’re not gonna be able to get it.

[02:05:23] Well the thing is too is that we’re all in different places. I mean my one sister still the cult leader lives in her basement.

[02:05:30] I mean he’s literally in her basement and he still has the same beliefs himself and what he is.

[02:05:36] He basically has shunned everyone so he lives as a like a recluse except for his brother. So he doesn’t ever talk to my sister even though they share a house still run the website and such.

[02:05:46] So he he never learned how to do any of that stuff. We did it all so you can’t do anything which is actually kind of awesome if you think about it.

[02:05:54] So basically his poison is now contained to a basement which is wonderful.

[02:06:01] Yes. The only times it threatens to get out is when he has some weird new scheme. He thinks he’s an amazing artist. He’s really. Anyway he is when his brother decides to like see if maybe they can get his work out there. But fortunately my sister’s husband which is the cult leader’s nephew he is kind of starting to take over the role of his dad like running the family business and doing other things and so he’s kind of able to keep a really good lid on the cult leader that lives in his basement.

[02:06:36] So how old is the cult leader now.

[02:06:39] Let’s see he’s going to be 70 this year. So yeah just a couple months. So yeah. So it’s just a very interesting situation. And it’s been really complicated and there’s been a lot of hurt feelings and a lot of a lot of stuff that’s had to come out and put back. And we I think are all slowly starting to be able to really give each other Grace but that took a really long time and then because we believed that moving away from the city where the cult was was evil there was a lot of feelings about that especially because I not only moved away from the city but from the state. So that caused a lot of problems. And then we’re planning to move even farther away which is still problematic for people. It’s been a really interesting thing watching people slowly catch up like one sister especially we were really anti alcohol and anti I know all the fun stuff. And it was really interesting watching her be really judgmental of those of us who decide to drink. And now just being like I love it. It’s great. Like not too problematic but like I can have a you know a grapefruit shandy if I want or whatever. And it’s been really interesting watching people come out and slowly like find their place and the need to is that we a lot of my family found a Christian church that they could go to but they were almost all in different churches. And I really appreciated that because it meant that we were finally at a place where we could make her own decisions right now in the biggest moments. And that was a while ago. Just looking and like OK one sister doesn’t want to go to church that’s great. This sister goes to this church and the sister goes to that church and my mom goes to another church. And.

[02:08:33] So watching people slowly find their own beliefs has been pretty wonderful. And especially once everyone’s gotten therapy that made a difference.

[02:08:47] So literally then. Or is everyone in therapy.

[02:08:50] Yes the one whose name is my little brother but he is starting to go soon which is wonderful. He I think had the roughest go of it being the youngest the lowest on the totem pole being medicated at 17. I mean such a young kid for it. I mean really looking back he shouldn’t have been shunned. He was just being a 17 year old like literally that’s all he did to get kicked out and so and he too. He wasn’t there for the last five years and the last five years the cult leader got so crazy that I think especially for me it was easier to realize that what we did was wrong. But for him he was on the outside looking in and he still for years and years afterwards believe that we did right by him that kicking him out was good for him like the poor guy.

[02:09:44] Either. There are witnesses who leave who are excommunicated or shunned disfellowshipped for you know usually a behavioral issue. And yet you know decades will go by and they still believe that the witnesses have the truth and they’ve never really looked at the doctrines or anything and it just feel like they’re terrible people. Yes. And you know they carry the shame with them and I’m so glad that your brother is going to get some therapy because it’s not it was never his fault. What was messed up situation. And you know I feel for anybody who carries that burden around for so long because it’s just not a it’s it’s such a harmful place to be and it’s so not fair to themselves so harmful.

[02:10:36] He was never equipped to be on his own.

[02:10:40] It’s been interesting though since we were really close and we were and basically we have a lot of the same memories and because of the cold beliefs one person’s totally right Winters is totally wrong. We both were told a lot growing up that our memories were made up or didn’t happen that I especially was told that I was an exaggerator and a liar and all these things that my little brother really internalized that I did too. But he especially because he got kicked out for that and then he he was living away from the family. It’s taken him a really long time to realize like that differentiate the cult voices in his head and by voices I don’t mean like schizophrenic words you mean like the thoughts and the in the impulses the programming from who he is.

[02:11:28] And it’s it’s only just been recently especially because pretty much all of us have either been suicidal attempted suicide or committed suicide.

[02:11:35] All my siblings and be cut and that the beliefs that we have about ourselves and about that you know the world will be better off without us and we’re self-willed and all things has been so detrimental. So seeing him finally come from that place to like being willing to get help has been just wonderful. I’m really hoping he finds a therapist that really helps him because I have been fortunate to find some really good people.

[02:12:05] You have to go into it knowing that not every therapist is going to be good for you. Oh yeah. It doesn’t necessarily even mean they’re terrible. You know there are just not a good fit so you can’t put too much pressure on the fit of each therapist if they don’t fit. That’s fine you’re paying them. So just pay somebody else move on.

[02:12:25] That’s not the funniest thing about my family is my mom. She’s like I don’t feel like I’m learning anything from my therapist. She’s not giving me all this good input. I was like Mom you’re not getting another cult leader.

[02:12:37] That’s not the point of a therapist. That’s an amazing thing.

[02:12:42] She she expects it. And I think a lot of us add to it that like OK people we had to refill the slots so that’s why my sister stepped in. And then like a therapist stepped in and I know for us to because of that mental illness we also had these rules about like my mom because she’d been so hurt her whole life and lost so many people. She like if people weren’t say you had a friend and you had to text them first a couple times if it was over three times they didn’t care about you and say you should just cut them off.

[02:13:14] So like these crazy rules that just came out of fear impact it impacted so much. Like from a therapist and deciding you hate your therapist and then not going to therapy ever again or like trying meds and the meds don’t work so you shun meds and there’s just so many ways that this like all or nothing idea really impacts and devastates people.

[02:13:41] So then we you know we’ve talked about a lot of the negative impacts.

[02:13:46] What what are you looking forward to in your new life. WATTERS I mean I know you’ve got this move that’s coming up and you’re happily married. How long have you been out like kind of officially officially.

[02:14:00] I’ve been out for two years. OK. Well I can’t.

[02:14:04] Yeah. So then you know what. What have you. What are the happy moments so far. You know what has already changed that you’re you’re excited about and then you know kind of paint a picture for us. Where do you want to go in the future.

[02:14:18] There’s a lot of things I want to do. Some of the really simple things that have made me the most happy we’re being able to read and watch things that I wasn’t before. Like for example the first time I read Harry Potter changed my life because I wasn’t allowed to read it growing up. Yes. And I identify so much with especially Neville Luna and Darby as who I like who I am and Dobby was one of the people that I was able to use.

[02:14:46] If you’re familiar with the story no to movies. Hello.

[02:14:51] Yes I know who he is end up having to they basically punish themselves if they speak anything bad against their family. So throughout the story we see Dobby. He hits his head against the wall when he says something bad evil family. And I just was like that is exactly how I was.

[02:15:08] And recognize that a lot of my behaviors were punishment urges and seeing that Darby really helped. So that like simple if like I read Harry Potter and now I can be a pothead.

[02:15:21] That’s just amazing for me. It’s also been really cool to recognize that the world is open to me. I don’t have to do. I don’t have to have a mission or do anything big. I can just be a human. I can I can be here and I am looking forward to.

[02:15:39] We want to get some land and have a little bit of a homestead and that’s possible because we can move away from the really expensive area that we live in. Before we couldn’t and I if I had stayed in the city I was born in I would I don’t think I’d ever be able to buy anything because it’s a very expensive place to live. So that just like little things like that. Like realizing I have freedom and I also one of the earliest times I realized I did was my family really disliked my now husband when we were dating largely because he knew what he believed and he wouldn’t listen to them and he was kind but firm as far as like you guys are crazy.

[02:16:22] And one of the first things I ever did to really define my family was I didn’t break up with him when they told me to. They tried to get me to break up with them three times and once by text message and I just remember thinking I cannot lose another person I cannot shun another person unless I have a really good reason and that choice was the beginning of me being able to make choices on my own and that’s been one of the best things about being out is if I want to wear a certain dress I can wear it if I want to have blue toenails I can do it like I don’t have people telling me what to do and where to go what job to take and obviously you know I am married so I don’t. It’s not like I’m like. Screw you I’m going to do everything on my own but it’s still there’s just so much freedom and being able to make your own choices and to decide that what’s best for your new family is to move across the country or you know. So that’s just wonderful. And then the other thing I have loved art my whole life and it really got poisoned for me in the cult because the cult leader only admired things that were like him and my style of art was not like his much more. It’s called an intuitive painting an abstract art. I really enjoy that or I’m kind of cartoony and I’ve always been that way and I stopped doing art for years and years because he would laugh at me and call me out in front of everybody and say how awful my art was. Which is really painful when you’re a teenager and it’s like no thing. Yeah yeah. So one of the best things that I did for myself after I realized that my uncle wasn’t the kind wonderful person I thought he was about. I pulled out my paints and I started painting and I haven’t stopped since I have an Etsy shop now and I’m just I just paint to paint and it’s really a huge gift to realize that I can write my story and tell my story and paint my story.

[02:18:17] I don’t have to worry about putting people in my life in a certain light or doing it in a certain style and just that freedom that has come has been so wonderful and so you know I look forward to the future as I continue to heal and continue to get better from you know processing trauma and going to therapy and finding the meds that work for my OCD and stuff and I really look forward to a life that I can create. And my husband and I can create together that works for us and that isn’t doesn’t have to fit a certain mold. And you know if I want to go back to school and get a degree I can do that. And if I want to you know write a book which I do I can do that too and it doesn’t have to be exactly what everyone thinks it should be. And that’s been I think one of the the wonderful pieces of this whole business has been realizing that I have a ton to me and I have choice. And while that’s terrifying.

[02:19:24] It’s also really exhilarating. A lot of ways I think.

[02:19:31] I think that is the perfect way to end your story. That is beautiful.

[02:19:36] All right. Yeah.

[02:19:38] I want to thank V for being so honest and open about our life and the family court that she was in. Sometimes out of something ugly can something beautiful come and it seems like V has found the beauty in herself in life and in others as well.

[02:19:53] You’d like to send a message of support to me. You can do so by going to shunnedpodcast.com where you can leave a comment for you can also find the resources that were mentioned in the episode there and the video for the song that she chose to represent her journey. V chose the song that come thou fount to represent her journey in the email where she told me that she wanted to pick the song she said and I quote the song that was picked was Come Thou Fount we used we used to change the words to make them fit our doctrine of conditional salvation.

[02:20:25] We took the most issue with the verse bind my wandering heart to the one I was dating my husband we had a long argument about it it was one of the first things that got me to see that what we believed wasn’t biblical and the first time I sang that full song in a roomful of Christians who believe in grace and love and acceptance was one of the most poignant moments in my life such a privilege to love without conditions and give grace and to recognize that we wander and mess up.

[02:20:56] I think that’s a that’s something we can all learn from we can all learn from that sentiment right. So that’s not only the only place that you can leave a comment for her on the episode as I said before we also have a Facebook group called Shunned Podcast where we have people discussing episodes and their own lives. And I try to do things to encourage members to find good things in their life and to grow. As I stated earlier I want to give you some highlights of the past month just to give you an idea of the supportive group that’s forming Wednesday we post things that we’re happy about in life this week. Things that are going good on Wednesday. Every weekend we post things that we’re doing for ourselves as part of self care something that we were never really taught to do in these cults. This month we’ve had a couple that were serve papers to attend judicial hearings to be disfellowshipped we also had someone disassociate. We celebrated with him had a watch party for the Leah Remini special on Jehovah’s Witnesses. I don’t know if you got to see that or not but if you have not seen these special Leah Remini and Scientology where they cover Jehovah’s Witnesses is a must watch. Whether you were one of Jehovah’s Witnesses or not that special was so well done and relatable for just about anyone to learn more. We also celebrated Thanksgiving together a little bit. We kind of talked about what we were doing there. We’re showing off our Christmas decor and I even started a Secret Santa gift exchange for the group things are happening in there. My goal is to keep it more about us as individuals. Our stories supporting one another not just keeping up with the latest jazzed up stuff or maims or whatever but this is about us and it’s a place for us to heal to explore the things that have happened to us or how they might be impacting us even today and to encourage one another to live better lives. You can also find the podcast on YouTube under the Channel shunnedpodcast. One word on Instagram shunnedpodcast one word and on Twitter at shunnedpodcast.

[02:23:05] Also one word if you’d like to hear my story and great insight into how the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses works you can do so at the podcast called this jw life.

[02:23:16] Also found at thisjwlife.com Haven’t had any new Patreon supporters for a few months but I want to take the time to thank the people that really helped me to make this show possible by helping to support it financially. Seriously this show takes not just work and time but there are costs involved in getting the audio hosted the Web site and doing transcripts and keeping the equipment going you can support the show for as little as a dollar a month and it means the world to me to know that there are others in this with me. It’s encouraging to see people who want to support what I’m doing here. You can do so at Patreon.com/shunned If you’re so inclined Oh and another great way to support both shunned podcast and This JW Life is to head over to iTunes and leave a five star review for them. It helps them to get found in the searches on there. And if people can find them then more people can find the help they need next month we’ve got another former member of Jehovah’s Witnesses named Jenny. We’re going to talk about how a congregation reacts to sexual assault. Mental illness in the cult. The fallout from a rough life in the cult and leaving it behind.

[02:24:25] And so much more we’re in a close this episode out with the song no hell yet by fair voyeur.

[02:24:32] You can find a link to her song to the Patreon page for the show. Two resources that were mentioned and more not just on the Web site shunnedpodcast.com. But if you’re listening on a podcast app you can probably get all the information in the app by looking at the description. So as we end all episodes love others do no harm and go be happy.