Episode Twenty – Tamara is shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses

Episode Twenty – Tamara is shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:40] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we expose religions that you shunning is a tool to control people we have a great look into the narcissism displayed by many of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The tone deaf way in which they react to others around them while they’re while they sit around admiring their own beauty. You know I don’t know if you know the myth of Narcissus but it’s about a man named Narcissus that’s so beautiful. He’s followed by admirers different admirers depending on the version of the story you get essentially Narcissus ends up being very rude to those that admire him and his beauty. So he is taken to a lake where he sees his reflection and he is coerced to sit there admiring himself in that reflection unable to pull away and unable to have the object of his desire. He ultimately either melted away into the flower that now bears the name Narcissus or he committed suicide Narcissus can’t really take the perspective of others they can’t see outside of themselves. It’s my assertion that Jehovah’s Witnesses both attract and create narcissists they view people as objects not people with their own feelings and perspectives only their thoughts and feelings matter and everything is about being right. And of course they’re always the horns in the right at best. Others are a problem to be fixed or dealt with. If you think about it the God Jehovah that they worship according to their doctrine is going to come and kill roughly 8 billion people in a mass genocide just so Jehovah’s Witnesses can live on earth in peace and harmony. It’s a literally wipe out the mass of humanity so that you can live as you wish without others around all bothering you is the epitome of narcissism through this story you’re going to meet to mirror a young girl showing up through all of this and and who came out as a strong woman not just strong enough to make it through but strong enough to tell her story. And this is a fresh story too. This is something that happened just earlier this year and something that she told to me just months after it all happened. Stay ahead of these interviews by several months. So I actually recorded this months many months ago. So stick around after the interview. You’re going to hear how the podcast is doing what next month’s episode is going to be about. I’ve decided I’m going to start giving you some highlights from the show and podcast group that I have on Facebook and what’s going on there. So without further ado let’s meet Tamara mirror my name’s Tamara.

[00:03:21] I’m 27 years old. I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and I am shunned right.

[00:03:29] So then how did you become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the first place.

[00:03:33] Were you born in.

[00:03:34] Or did you come in later was born and raised Jehovah’s Witnesses gotcha.

[00:03:43] How many generations does that go back.

[00:03:48] 5 goes back five generations.

[00:03:51] Wow. Yeah. So. So you have deep roots then.

[00:03:56] Yes they do.

[00:03:58] So then I guess you know that means. So obviously your parents were born in as well.

[00:04:03] No. Mom. She. She was raised in it from the age of 3.

[00:04:13] And my dad didn’t come into it until he was later in his life around the age of 21.

[00:04:21] So then how did that come about. Do you know the story at all.

[00:04:26] With my mom and my grandmother had always been exposed to it but she didn’t get baptized until she was 19 and my mom was around three at that time with my dad. He and his parents started studying Jehovah’s Witnesses and he was living a life of extreme drugs and alcohol and he was looking for something more than that so he started studying with his parents.

[00:04:54] Gotcha. I think a lot of times people have issues in life and then they you know kind of find find Jehovah’s Witnesses and turn to that you can be just as addicted to a religion or an ideology as you can to drugs and alcohol they can kind of take over your life. Then so then you know being born and raised a Witness yourself. What was the world view that it gave you as a as a child growing up.

[00:05:30] Well I lived a very isolated life. I even lived in an isolated community. I was raised in this tiny little town that had one street on it is called Main Street. I went and had a grocery store and the other end had a home hardware. And so the school had like 300 kids and and my congregation at the Kingdom Hall only had 15 people in it.

[00:05:59] Wow that’s a book study for most people.

[00:06:03] Exactly. It was it was tiny. So in the beginning years I didn’t mind know going to school and being different because I got so much attention for it it was so praised and it was. It was a good thing. So I didn’t I didn’t start changing me. My view on how I seen the world until I got into my teens and actually realized that I was different.

[00:06:36] Gotcha. So then you say that you were praised for it. That’s kind of the I guess the opposite of a lot of people’s experiences. Why in school were you praised for what did what did people kind of admire them about. Was it that you were just being praised by your family and you know the witnesses in this small kingdom hall or were you actually getting praise at school or from your classmates or teachers. It was.

[00:07:07] It was definitely a little of both. And I was always a strong minded kid and I was just like my classmates. There was only you know a small number of us and so they. They were always.

[00:07:25] Good to me and my teachers were always you know praising me for standing up for myself and being strong minded and and stuff like that. So they were always very accommodating because like every other Jehovah’s Witness you know you don’t stand for the anthem and you don’t participate in any of the holiday celebrations. And so they were always extremely accommodating to me.

[00:07:51] Well that’s nice.

[00:07:53] Yeah and you can kind of see to Jehovah’s witnesses give their kids the I guess the opportunity to be strong and to take stands for things. I mean you kind of have to. Yeah it’s not really so optional but yeah. I guess if you’re you’re looking for qualities that the religion can give people that is you know the ability to stand out to be different. Obviously again it’s it’s not really necessarily always by choice but you know that is a positive and then of course you know later in life if a person takes a stand and uses those same qualities against the religion it’s a whole nother ballgame.

[00:08:44] Yeah. That’s what happened to me.

[00:08:46] Sure of course. So then. So it sounds like school was was pretty good.

[00:08:54] What was it like at home for you growing up in the religion was boring.

[00:09:07] It was very boring. But when I at the age that I started school would have been around 5 years old.

[00:09:14] My dad got very sick with chronic migraines which rendered him bedridden for the majority of my life at home. So we had that to deal with and and Mom had her depression to deal with. So we weren’t the family that at that period of time we weren’t always the family that made it to all the meetings or went in service my mom followed the rules to the letter of course. So our TV was in. I was raised on Little House On The Prairie and animal documentaries. Our music was you know old school music there was never any. We were never exposed to any swearing or any kind of insinuate in insinuating material of any kind. It was. It was very strict. My life revolved around just being at home school is kind of the only escape from that so it sounds like you were.

[00:10:33] I mean I can only imagine how isolating that is. You know to be isolated in a small community and then to even be isolated at school and then it sounds like at home. I mean you had very little contact with the outside world.

[00:10:48] Very little. Yes. Because there were other kids in our hall as well there was three other kids. But they were a lot younger than me too. So we didn’t get out and do things. We were always just a home. And you know the highlight of our year was when our aunts came to visit because they would take us to a movie or a sleigh ride whatever time of the year they come. They plan an adventure for us. And that was our one time De.

[00:11:19] Get out and see the world.

[00:11:21] And was it just you. As far as the children goes. Or did you. Did you have any siblings.

[00:11:27] Yeah I had a I had a younger sister. She was four years younger than me. She just passed last year.

[00:11:35] Okay. I’m sorry to hear that.

[00:11:39] That’s that’s too young.

[00:11:43] How were you treated then. So you don’t really want to just gloss all over your past that but I know that’s part of your story. So how did you know you’re at home. You’re isolated like this. It sounds like so what about at the Kingdom Hall. It sounds like you said that you weren’t super regular. Was such a small congregation. I would assume that everyone takes on maybe bigger roles when they are there for you. What did that. What did that look like.

[00:12:21] Well after after a couple years we did we did get regular at the meetings and in pretty involved in the congregation their responsibilities were a lot heavier at that point I mean you were given a talk or I was given a talk at least every second to third week and then a demonstration for every meeting. So there is a lot but there was a lot of disconnect in the congregation nobody really cared.

[00:12:53] Really. Yeah I know.

[00:12:56] How can you. That’s hard to grasp because you know it’s such a small congregation it’s like you would think that everybody cares tremendously because you know it.

[00:13:10] You would think. But all it did was generate a lot of drama because you’re so close to these people all the time when they do want to get involved in your life. It’s it’s because they want to counsel you and your shoes being too tall or being too low or your makeup or whatever it was always. They always involve themselves in the things that didn’t really matter. And then they didn’t pay attention to anything else. Like for an example my dad didn’t go to the meetings at all. He never got out of bed. But every single meeting at that point we had three meetings a week and every single meeting they’d say Oh your father’s not here. He must be sick. Well yes he has been for the last ten years. And every single meeting it was the same thing over and over again. Nobody paid attention.

[00:14:11] That is so fascinating. I think that you really summed up a lot of what it is to live in the cult just in the statement that they pay attention to the things that don’t really matter. You know like your shoes or your the length of your dress or whatever. Exactly. Yeah. But when it comes to caring about actual human beings that’s not that’s not really there because I don’t know if it were me and I knew this guy that seems to not get out of bed for 10 years and isn’t at the meeting I would be trying to help that guy you know find out what’s right. You know what can we do to help him. You would you would think that these loving quote shepherds or whatever would be out there trying to help him or in some way or help helping you or your mom or your sister because that’s just a hard situation.

[00:15:17] Well their way of helping is inviting you in service.

[00:15:21] Yes. Because that’s all that really matters.

[00:15:24] They fix everything in their heads. That’s how they were we’re helping we’ll get the kids out a house we’ll invite them in service. And that was just the extent of it. Wow.

[00:15:38] Wow. And it is interesting that even in such a small congregation people were still reflective of what you see in the larger congregation. I mean there’s a larger kingdom halls there.

[00:15:49] Clicks I guess you couldn’t have too many clicks out of 15 people but they’re quite often division. Yeah. It’s an issue that come up it would kind of divide at half every time I was usually the center of the TV.

[00:16:06] You were the only I think didn’t you say that you’re pretty much the oldest of the young people. Yes. So there you go. Yeah.

[00:16:12] You’re you’re going to be the center of everyone’s attention you’re the next the next big hope for them is that they can get you to be whatever it is you know they’re trying to mold you into. Yeah. That’s that’s a lot of pressure how did then how did things kind of. It. Let’s talk about how did you feel you know what were what were your feelings as you were going through all this. You know you kind of said that in school you kind of felt I guess maybe a little praised for things but you know otherwise you know you said that you’re kind of the center of this sometimes negative attention. How were you feeling at home and how are you feeling at school or at the Kingdom Hall.

[00:17:00] When I get into grades five six that’s when my view on everything started to change. So I I got curious about know what all the other kids were doing in the music they were listening to the sports they got to play and I wanted to experience things like all the other kids but it created a division. You know I got angry because I couldn’t do it.

[00:17:28] So my family and the congregation viewed me as rebellious. So they see you starting to go one way and they just load the pressure and expectations on you to keep you distracted.

[00:17:44] That didn’t work. I got pulled out of school. Oh really. Yeah. You say. When was this. You got pulled out. I was halfway through grade nine. Wow.

[00:17:56] And were you then. If you want to get into that yet. Is that when you when did you get baptized. How did that progress as far as you know. Because you know you’re starting to be this quote rebellious kid who wants to have a little fun.

[00:18:17] Yeah you know harmless fun and yet you know eventually you I’m sure did end up getting baptized. How did all how did that go as you went through your teenage years.

[00:18:29] Well I had no choice to get baptized. And how that word was there was an elder in our congregation at the time. And because you’re I mean it’s such a small car. You work with the same people every day in service. And so we quite often got left in the car by ourselves.

[00:18:51] Well somebody went to do a study. So I’d be stuck in the car for about an hour with this elder and he would pull out the book and he would ask me the questions and he would drill me on all the questions I’d have to answer them. And then at the end of it he would say see you know all the answers so when do you want to book the meeting to start going over the questions. And finally it just got too much and I said OK well we’ll do it. You know when do you want to do it. How old were you then 16.

[00:19:28] That’s such a good a hard line way to go about it. I mean you were truly a captive mean captive in a car getting grilled by an elder. There’s there’s not much you can do. Get away from that. You’re stuck. Yeah. That’s so. Did you feel. I don’t know I’m just trying to put myself in your shoes. I think I might have felt not only lonely but just trapped maybe even early in a car.

[00:20:03] And I’ve always been a pleaser. Yeah you know I always wanted to make people happy. Yeah.

[00:20:10] Though when people put expectations on me it was a lot of pressure because they just wanted to make them happy. So that was that was the majority of my life in. In the Kingdom Hall is just just meeting expectations all the time yeah you’re almost like a little performer.

[00:20:31] Yes. Yeah. Here’s your stage here’s your roll. Now go do it. You know that’s that’s your life. Yeah. When you were taken out of school I would imagine that must have been a huge change for you because that was your one escape. That was your one outlet. Yes.

[00:20:51] It was the kids at school they would they would bring me a change of clothes everyday.

[00:20:58] So when I got to school I could wear more modern things like everybody else saying stick out is different so much and they would bring me magazines so I could you know keep up on the celebrity drama like everybody else.

[00:21:11] So they did that for me and you know I was I was told that they were no they were going to die. And you know they were you know influenced by Satan. And I truly believed that they were good people they were good people I still I still talk to them did you know they were friendships that lasted you know up until now and you just get stuck in the middle.

[00:21:38] Yeah. I mean that’s that’s honestly a really sweet and beautiful thing that those kids were doing. That’s that’s really that’s amazing.

[00:21:49] Yeah I mean you know usually kids see another kid who’s different and they seize upon that opportunity to bully them or whatever to make themselves feel better. But here these kids were actually trying to help you. Yes. That’s why I’ve never never heard that. That’s that’s an amazing piece of the story.

[00:22:14] I was lucky to have that. Yeah but it it got taken away once once my parents found out.

[00:22:23] Yeah. So then you said that was in like the 9th grade.

[00:22:25] Yeah. Halfway through grade nine.

[00:22:28] So how old are you then like 14 ish I guess. Yeah 14. Yeah.

[00:22:37] So then you start this homeschool program. Can you tell us anything about the type of homeschool that you did.

[00:22:48] This type of home schooling should not be allowed but it was called new system school. So in order to get enrolled in this program you have to have letters signed by elders stating that you are an active part of the congregation before you can even get the curriculum.

[00:23:11] Then and then once you get it health class is the young people ask book your history class is either the Proclaimers book or the revelation book your science class is the evolution book it goes on and on.

[00:23:33] I think you mean the creation bug. Yeah. I’m just teasing. Because of course it’s not really about evolution.

[00:23:41] No that’s that’s. That would give a person a very distorted outlook of the world if that’s all that they read.

[00:23:49] Yeah. So the only class that didn’t involve the publications that were given was their math class was it.

[00:24:04] And is that just basically. Probably like a remedial math.

[00:24:08] I would assume that it’s not the high of any flexing multiplication. Yeah just basic basics.

[00:24:17] Yeah I am really surprised that that is that mutates criteria I wonder I kind of wonder how they get around that ala new I know.

[00:24:35] Yeah. It’s intense because your service time counts for credits and you’re meeting times spent at the meetings and your meeting preparation count for credits as well so your life is Jehovah’s Witness bubble.

[00:24:55] Does your ex those two that you learn about. That’s all you study. That’s all you live.

[00:25:02] I would imagine that you must have felt pretty desperate to get away from it at times because that’s just a lot of Jehovah’s Witness indoctrination. That’s just a lot.

[00:25:11] It’s a lot. But you know after two years of that just gave in to it. Yeah my only way out was to to progress to the things that you’re allowed to like. Pioneering and foreign language and that is the path they took so then did you do.

[00:25:40] Did you just pioneer. Or did you actually learn a foreign language.

[00:25:44] Yes I did. I regular pioneered and went to pioneer school. And after that I joined the Chinese congregation at the same time I was part of the sign language and Spanish courses as well.

[00:26:03] You’re a young go getter.

[00:26:06] Yeah but it was the only thing that I was allowed to excel at. Sure it was the only thing I was allowed to do that allowed me to move forward in any direction.

[00:26:18] Did you did you have to move away. I mean I would. I don’t know. I’m just picturing this little Main Street town. Like were the people with these foreign languages. Did you have to move away.

[00:26:31] Yes I did. I traveled back and forth for a while Halifax and then I just moved to Halifax and how far away did that get you from.

[00:26:46] You know where you had grown up.

[00:26:48] Now in half Yeah that’s nice.

[00:26:52] You know a little a little breathing room at least a buffer zone.

[00:26:57] Yes but that was that was the beginning of my way out.

[00:27:01] Yeah. I was working at home too so I was home schooled and pioneering and and I managed a call center from home that night.

[00:27:13] A little workaholic. Really. That’s a lot on your plate.

[00:27:18] It was but it didn’t allow me out of the bubble.

[00:27:22] Yeah you get to work outside of the home or these was this call center was it somehow witnesses. It was mostly most of the workers were witnesses.

[00:27:36] Really. Yeah. A lot of the workers or witnesses.

[00:27:40] Wow. And so I guess they all worked from home and maybe had contracts to do like phone customer service representation or something like that.

[00:27:49] Yes wow.

[00:27:52] I did not know that that existed. That’s a new one on me. Interesting. I can see the need for it. I can see why they would like that. That type of work. Yeah. So then how did things you know go from there.

[00:28:11] I when I was a small town girl and moved to tell the facts which was like the big city to me and that was that was the beginning of of my way out. At that point I met people in the congregation that you know were on their way out too and they just got involved with them and I wanted to see the world and experience things and and so I did it.

[00:28:46] So yeah you kind of like Sawyer you know a crack wall and went for it.

[00:28:53] Yes. You were in that prison cell and there was a crack and you were using a spoon to dig it out.

[00:29:02] He said How did that play out.

[00:29:06] You know I mean that that’s a pretty big events in your life. How were you influenced to do that or how did that work. You know who are these people and how they work out for you.

[00:29:19] It was.

[00:29:20] How did you even find these people. How did you even know it’s it’s hard to know how far to push it even on your own and then did you just see people who were kind of on the fringe and kind of follow them actually actually it was it was an accident.

[00:29:38] Actually was kind of a traumatic experience it was. It was an accident but I had gotten a roommate at that point another another young girl in the congregation and she liked this this young man in the hall and so of course the rules are you never go there by yourself. He invited her over for a movie night so she brought me along and he ended up drugging our drinks and. Pretty much rendered unconscious. We woke up with cigarette burns on parts of our bodies that we should not have had them. And so what we did was we kept quiet for a little while about it but then we found out that it was happening to two other girls in other congregations by the same person.

[00:30:34] So we took took pictures. I mean they I mean the burns were bad enough we ended up in the hospital and so we had taken pictures you know very discrete pictures we went for an elders meeting and they told us that the pictures weren’t enough evidence. You know it could be anybody. So they needed us to show them the physical evidence which neither one of us would do. So nothing was done. He was promptly flown out to live in. I think he went to Las Vegas actually his family flown him to Las Vegas and he’s he’s never come back.

[00:31:19] So they literally so they literally had no Jehovah’s Witnesses like to like to go by this two witness rule where there has to be two witnesses to any of these types of events two. Yes give them any validity. Right. They literally have two witnesses and photographic evidence. And they just kind of tell you to piss off. Yeah that is horrifying.

[00:31:53] Yeah it was awful. I am so sorry that you had to go through that. That that is sickening.

[00:32:02] It’s not only violating enough this monster did but then to sit in a room full of three monsters.

[00:32:13] Yes. Yes definitely. And it was a touchy subject. Yeah.

[00:32:18] And so you have someone saying well just show us what he did. Well we can’t. Like we’re not going to do that for you. Like here’s the pictures.

[00:32:27] Yeah. Is that the fact that they would even ask you to do that. That is is quite frankly rather predatory behavior itself. That’s horrific. I my mind is blown. That is awful. I mean I know.

[00:32:46] You know I hear stories but I’ve never.

[00:32:51] I don’t think I’ve ever had them ask you to you know show that kind of evidence. Yeah that’s might be a new one on me I’m sure.

[00:33:01] I’m sure there’s somebody who is going to listen. He was like Oh yeah. That happens all the time and probably knows a lot of examples.

[00:33:07] But they call themselves Jehovah’s organization and they’re directed by God. What. That’s that’s horrifying. So then how did how did you go on from that. I mean that’s where did that take you.

[00:33:25] You know after something like that Welsh very shortly after that happened we had another friend a very close friend and he was quite obviously gay. But he had never acted on it but it was bothering him.

[00:33:45] We know of course the rules are you know if something is wrong then you go to the elders and tell the elders and they’ll help you he went to the elders in and told them that you know he believed that he was gay. Yeah. And acted on it. But you know this is who he was. And they immediately disfellowshipped him really.

[00:34:08] Yeah.

[00:34:09] Just for the thought and not the action.

[00:34:13] Yes

[00:34:14] I’m the elders in the congregation at that time didn’t understand. And there were after that had happened. He wasn’t reinstated but there were a lot of elders meetings on the island teaching them how to better deal with those situations.

[00:34:33] But

[00:34:33] it didn’t help him any. It didn’t help him any and so he tried to commit suicide after he was disfellowshipped. So we found him and we we took him in and he lived with us.

[00:34:48] But

[00:34:48] he was disfellowshipped so we we got the scholarship to because we weren’t going to back down at that point we had already been no nobody was there to help us.

[00:35:08] We were you know pretty much slapped in the face with our elders meeting you know not long before that. And then this young man was treated so unfairly that we just put our foot down and we’re like No so.

[00:35:22] So the guy who’s drugging and raping women all right.

[00:35:29] Yeah you know that. We’re going to let him roam free in the organization.

[00:35:33] The guy that has homosexual thoughts. We’re going to this fellowship him then the two girls who were violated by this first guy who are kind hearted sweet gentle people and take in this guy who has tried to commit suicide to help him. You know these these shepherds the undermining your efforts and fellow shipping you so you’ll be shunned to and then all the while you know it’s really you all where the shepherds you all were the ones who were caring for someone or something that’s it’s just it’s really you know when you get to the the core of what the organization is and the power that is wielded by these men in these positions. It’s it’s really frightening and it’s and it’s really just a disgusting display of what humans can do when they’re given too much power.

[00:36:42] Yes. Yes I am I am.

[00:36:47] I am sorry that that’s though the way it went for everyone involved there. That’s just terrible so may I ask whatever happened to this guy. If you can say I mean I know it’s not his story but yeah I believe that he did get reinstated.

[00:37:06] And if I’m correct it it happened a couple of times.

[00:37:10] I’m he said he suffered from some mental illness and his family was everything. He was very very close with his family it was everything to him so when he lost it he couldn’t deal with it or so he he keeps going back and keeps going back.

[00:37:31] Yeah I imagine that’s much of that mental illness is brought on by the fact that he’s being so inauthentic he’s not if he’s gay then great you know be that. But he’s trying to suppress who he is and he’s trying to be somebody he’s not. Yes to keep family and that will cause mental illness. Yeah. Wow.

[00:37:52] Well you know. Back to you. You know and I guess you know this. There was this other girl as well. How did you all how did life progressed for you all. You know from there.

[00:38:04] Well I haven’t I haven’t been in contact with her since then though I have I have creature Facebook and she had been dating somebody and during that time and they’ve gotten married and and her her life looks good. She she’s living a good life the way that she wanted to.

[00:38:25] She’s still a witness do you think or.

[00:38:26] No she’s not. You go into her parents at an assembly a couple years ago two years ago in I’m glad she found freedom and an authentic life.

[00:38:38] So then that leaves you. So where did you go from there.

[00:38:44] Disfellowshipped and my parents gave me. I believe it was something like a week to find a place to live. And I answered to a newspaper an article somebody had posted that they were looking for a roommate. Ended up in a very bad situation it turned out to be a crack house.

[00:39:10] So I know I have no outside world experience whatsoever but what I’m dealing with so I I took off I grabbed a bus and I ended up in Halifax back in Halifax as the first bus that was leaving that’s where it took me and I called my dad.

[00:39:36] At that point and and I told him you know I’m I’m sitting in front of McDonald’s where I am I slept on the sidewalk beside McDonald’s for a couple of days because they gave out free coffee in the morning so yeah I called him and.

[00:39:54] I know I’m crying.

[00:39:56] And I tell him you know where I am and what’s happened and I said I just I need to come home. I need somewhere safe to sleep I need to get back on my feet I’ll do anything you know with this going on bag and you know I’ll go to all the meetings and you know I’ll I’ll do it all. And his response to me was You can’t come home until the elders tell me that you can come home so you need to call them.

[00:40:22] And he gave me a list of phone numbers well I called them unlike you you have to tell him that I can come home.

[00:40:35] I’ll go to the meetings I’ll do whatever and they say no you’re just in a desperate situation and you’re just saying what you need to do you’re not really sorry. I’m like yes obviously I mean you should go home.

[00:40:50] But no no. That didn’t work.

[00:40:54] Was your dad an Elder.

[00:40:56] Yes. So he was worried about his position.

[00:41:00] He had gotten better at that point just as I had gotten disfellowshipped. Have my dad had a boat for years. Well where he had a break from his migraines. So he quickly became an Elder and pioneered and got extremely extremely faithful so he left me there.

[00:41:29] It’s really hard to hear the. I mean I’m sure it’s even harder to live the abandonment you know by these these people that you know you think are your your loved ones are supposed shepherds in the congregation who are supposed to love you and care for you. And you know it’s just time after time when you’ve needed any of these people. They just abandoned you and that’s that’s just that’s horror horrifying. So you know your guess at this point your Where does that leave you. You’re just homeless in Halifax.

[00:42:11] Is that it. Well I found I found a boyfriend I guess and I found a guy that I liked and he.

[00:42:21] He immediately offered for me to move in with him.

[00:42:24] And I’m not a smart idea but that’s what I did. And he’s the father of my children. And and I stayed with him for for a number of for a number of years.

[00:42:40] What was that like. I mean you said it was not a smart idea. Was it a bad relationship or.

[00:42:46] Yeah I was in it. It was an extremely abusive relationship.

[00:42:54] But I was the the way Jehovah’s Witnesses raise you as you make it work. You figure out how to make it work. You just don’t give up on relationships. You fix it. So I tried to fix it.

[00:43:16] It didn’t it didn’t work.

[00:43:19] Yeah you know they teach you they give these examples many of which are probably fake of you know people their spouse over without a word through their conduct their fine conduct especially as a woman. Yes that’s how it’s portrayed. Essentially if your husband’s beating you just be a fine example of a Christian. Jehovah’s Witness wife and you know magically you know 20 years later he might change. It’s really such a bleak outlook. And I think that you know a point you made it touches on just the fact you know Jehovah’s Witnesses teach you just kind of to grin and bear it. And I think that that’s what you were doing your whole life. And what most of us probably did as young witnesses we didn’t have a choice. We were just grinning and bearing it. We were doing what was expected of us and doing what we could to survive.

[00:44:24] So so that pattern just plays out there was there was a period of time where you know of course I missed my family.

[00:44:35] So this this man that I was with he he started his death actually started studying and we we went to the meetings just so that because when they see me making an effort they would have minimal amount of contact with me.

[00:44:51] Of course the contact was usually just two to lecture me on how I could be a better housewife but still contact. I mean it didn’t last very long.

[00:45:04] It lasted a couple of months but we did.

[00:45:09] We did do that for a little while and of course then everybody had hope. You know it’s going to convert him and and everything was going to be great. They were going to help fix them and. Then they knew what was happening in the home. But you know Jehovah was gonna fix that once once again.

[00:45:32] It’s not like they were going to call an outside organization and say come help this person or her children who are living in an abusive environment.

[00:45:45] No at average at every chance Jehovah’s Witnesses have they fail to actually help a human being. Yeah it’s it’s so mindblowing how they how they do that.

[00:46:03] So this was all this was all before I had the girls too. I left him. I left him just a couple months after I had my first daughter.

[00:46:13] Oh OK. I got reinstated at that point. Really. Yes.

[00:46:24] How. What was that process like. As far as you know going through the reinstatement process. Did you just you know tell them you were sorry. Like the prodigal son and they accepted you back immediately.

[00:46:37] Yeah. You fake it till you make it.

[00:46:40] Right. Well I I had a young I had a baby girl and I was pregnant with it with another one and I had left. This man and he was the only person I had in my life and I didn’t have my family I had him and that was it. There was nobody else I. He didn’t allow me to to leave that bubble either. Yeah I left him there was nobody. And I was like well I need my family. So I went to my doctor my doctor is like well what do you what do you need. What do you need me to do. And I said I need my family. So he actually wrote a prescription to the elders that I needed family contact for my mental health he did do that for me good for whom he got pretty good at it and it worked.

[00:47:33] Wow really day by day they did that. Yeah.

[00:47:40] I mean they I mean I couldn’t go out and go for supper with my family and whatnot but my mom could come over and help me out and stuff like that. So the reinstatement process was really just faking it.

[00:47:56] I have sent in my letter for reinstatement after three months and did the the interview that they do where they ask you a million questions that don’t need to like. I suffered from a serious drug addiction during those years and it was in later years where you were with this man or during the years after him.

[00:48:26] Yes I know that the years I was with him. OK. And then when I got pregnant with my daughter I I got I got clean at that point.

[00:48:33] So then you have you. You were kind of escaping probably through that.

[00:48:39] Yes. That was just it just you didn’t think about it. You were just numb.

[00:48:43] Oh yeah of course. I mean you know you’ve been trapped your whole life you know you do anything you can to get out.

[00:48:51] So they ask you questions like drugs. Did you do. And how much of it did you do. Well don’t know.

[00:49:03] I just took whatever was available like how many partners did you have in the trust. All these questions. This just make no sense. And so I just I just kept telling them like I don’t know the answers to your questions.

[00:49:23] There’s no one answer.

[00:49:26] It’s not like you were keeping a log you know just in case the elders need this later. I’m going to keep a log. Everything that I do so that they can have control complete control over me later.

[00:49:41] So I mean I guess I mean they were satisfied enough with with the efforts that I had made in the three month period and they they said they would reinstate me but they lost my records. So it took an additional three months to reinstate me.

[00:50:04] Well that’s interesting. I wonder if they really lost your records. I know because I’ve never heard of anybody getting things that I was thinking the same thing. Yeah I’ve never heard of anybody getting reinstated after just three months. I mean usually it’s a minimum six month process.

[00:50:21] Well I was trying. I was trying to get in before I had the baby so that my family could help me out. I’m actually one of the elders meetings I had I was in labor the elders meeting one of the last ones I had. Why.

[00:50:41] Well I was in labor. I delivered a baby about three hours after that elders meeting I don’t even know what to say to that.

[00:50:51] I was like you better reinstate me because this is some serious effort that’s right here.

[00:50:57] I can only imagine the stress that you were under too. Yeah probably what induced it really. Noses.

[00:51:04] Yeah that could absolutely be an so when did you get reinstated.

[00:51:12] Was it after the baby was born.

[00:51:14] Yes. Just after my dad. After the elders meeting my dad drove me to the hospital drop me off at the doors. Have a nice night.

[00:51:26] I’ll see you in the morning I went in there by myself.

[00:51:34] It felt really bad. Yes I do too. That’s horrible.

[00:51:39] I mean they’re just so they’re so inhuman. It’s awful. Yeah it makes me think of I’m blanking. Was itD.J. some somebody that I interviewed who wanted to get reinstated essentially because he had a friend who his best friend was getting married. And of course I don’t think that that worked out. It’s like they they know that there’s some event coming up and somehow you never quite get reinstated and it’s now ever. Now they have to punish you that one last time. They have to stick it to you in some way so they can get their power trip. So then you’re here. You give birth to your second child. You said you were reinstated not long after that.

[00:52:45] So maybe a month a week.

[00:52:48] So then where where did that take you in life after that. Where did Where do you go.

[00:52:55] I was reinstated probably a period of two months before I left again. Directly after my reinstatement which wasn’t that long ago my mom and sister were diagnosed in the same week with two different very aggressive cancers so they needed to.

[00:53:26] They needed to move to be closer to their treatments. And I didn’t have a car. No. Doesn’t even sell diapers like we’re a small community here. So I needed to move somewhere where I’d have help and I couldn’t move with them because that’s where my children’s father lives and he doesn’t. He doesn’t know where I am. They couldn’t risk and finding out. So my my family moved. I moved.

[00:54:00] Forty five minutes away from them.

[00:54:04] All right. And so then you move into this new place.

[00:54:08] And I stopped going to meetings. Nice reading.

[00:54:11] Gotcha. So you were kind of fading or trying to get my chance to get out.

[00:54:17] Yeah. This is my chance.

[00:54:20] Sure. So then how did things progress with the fade or with your you know your family.

[00:54:26] I mean that’s. This seems like the hits just keep coming. You know now your sister and your mom are diagnosed with cancer. How how did all this progressed I mean your search for freedom in this new place and then yet you have this family that you love that is going through these hard times.

[00:54:47] They were too distracted to be too bothered my change in my choice on how to raise my children and live my life and what was that what was that change or what was you know what if they were paying attention I mean what were you what was the change what were you doing differently you know in this new place I am.

[00:55:15] I severed all contact with any any Jehovah’s Witnesses and I started looking into childcare I wanted to get a job and go to school and I got in trouble with that with my father a little later on. After things settled but I started celebrating holidays for the first time this has been my first year actually. Actually really celebrating any holidays and awesome. Congratulations. Yeah it’s been exciting. Yeah yeah. So the only thing they realized or noticed was that I wasn’t going to the meetings but um they were so distracted with what was going on that they just let it go for a little while until things got to the end for them with the hospital stays and stuff.

[00:56:10] And that’s when I was obviously pretty disconnected from the family. But they kind of put their foot down with me. Tyler had it for a little while but.

[00:56:25] They. So first of all I have to go back to something that’s sticking in my mind so your dad got on you later on for him for wanting to go to school and get a job and such like. How were you supposed to support these kids. I mean what what else were you supposed to do.

[00:56:46] What was the alternative. I’m supposed to go to meetings and find a brother to to support me.

[00:56:54] OK. Right.

[00:56:56] Yeah. That’s what I’m supposed to do.

[00:56:59] Well I mean that’s not even that’s not immediate. You have to support yourself somehow. You gotta eat. That’s that’s no. It just has such an unrealistic view of life. So then you said you know getting back to your family. So you said that they kind of shut you out or whatever. What did they do they you know kind of see your face and start shunning you. Or did they just limit contact or you know what happened. Because I mean you weren’t disfellowshipped. Yeah it was a little.

[00:57:37] With Mom it was obvious.

[00:57:41] You know my dad when I was in the hospital my sister was third there.

[00:57:52] It’s easier with my sister. She was the first to pass. She she passed last May. So I stayed at the hospital with her and nobody offered me a drive.

[00:58:07] You know I lived an hour away. Nobody out asked me where the kids were if I needed help with the kids. When it came to nighttime nobody offered me a bed to sleep in at the hospital to find somewhere else to go.

[00:58:25] And pretty much look after myself.

[00:58:31] And again you’re not disfellowshipped. No I mean not that even being this fellowship is an excuse for you know that kind of type of behavior and treatment of another human being especially in such a time of grief and no concern. There is no excuse for that but um but you know even Jehovah’s Witnesses who might do that.

[00:58:56] If someone was disfellowshipped you’re not disfellowshipped and they are using your new life or whatever to treat you so badly.

[00:59:09] And this time one of my one of my older friends I’m she was one of the girls in our congregation that I grew up. She’s a few years younger than me and she lived close to the hospital so she offered for me to be able to stay with her since nobody would let me stay at the hospital. OK.

[00:59:30] So after a night her family convinced her that you know I was worldly and I got kicked out on the street in the middle of the night.

[00:59:39] I believe it was around eleven thirty at night just threw you out. They just threw me out. Where where were your kids during all this. Actually my cousin. I have them. OK. Yeah. OK.

[00:59:56] My cousin had them for taking care of them for the week that I was there and I had to call you know I didn’t really know this person really well at this point.

[01:00:09] I had met her a couple of times and I called her up in the middle of the night and I told her what had happened and she said Give me 15 minutes and you’re gonna stay with me. And I hadn’t eaten nobody was offering me any food. I had no money. She took me out and got me a hot meal and took me in for the last couple of days of all of that good for her for being here.

[01:00:37] Yeah. Yeah.

[01:00:41] So then this was it. You said the last couple of days was. Was this the wine down of your sisters battle with cancer.

[01:00:49] Yes. Yes. She stayed there until until she passed. There was an overwhelming amount of people I have never witnessed such a level of disrespect. My life as was demonstrated. All those Jehovah’s Witnesses at the time we were on the palliative care unit. So there’s like a kitchen and there’s two family rooms and you know there’s about 10 other rooms with people and their families that they’re passing when my sister was up there there was at least 30 to 40 people at any given time. They just took over the whole floor you know all the other families had nowhere to sit. They know where to put their food in the kitchen. They had their kids running everywhere. Just this massive amount of noise and melodies being sung all of the time.

[01:01:54] Oh my God.

[01:01:58] It was of course I’m the worldly one and my aunt who is there with me she she was an inactive witness either.

[01:02:11] So we spent the majority of our time you know down the hallway there’s there’s so jealous what is there so tone deaf to other human beings to social norms.

[01:02:26] They’re so narcissistic they just think they can’t them that other people wouldn’t like them taking over a whole floor and saying Jehovah’s praises Three Kingdoms songs you know while other human beings are dying with their family trying to have their last moments their way.

[01:02:50] Yeah that’s it as it was it was a sad thing too to be witness to you know I spent a good majority of my time apologizing to their families you know because I am you know finding a little corner to sit in down the hallway because there’s no room for me either you know I’m just you know this is my sister that’s in there and I feel like I I need to apologize for them for this.

[01:03:22] Yeah no I understand that. Just as an aside I remember when I when I was a witness for a lot of my life. We didn’t have to travel to conventions because they were held in our city. But at a point we we started having to travel and I actually stopped staying at any of the approved hotels that were on the lists because I couldn’t stand the behavior of Jehovah’s Witnesses the hotels.

[01:03:49] I was so sickened by it that I would just go get my own hotel somewhere else and not be around any of them. They just they have no idea you know how they pump themselves up in their assemblies and conventions as to how you know how everyone wishes basically they could be like that. This isn’t their behavior but it’s not true. It’s it’s it’s completely fabricated. Their behavior is is deplorable. So yeah I I can only imagine you know here I am talking about my experience at a convention. I can only imagine I’m just so sorry that you know in this time I have to apologize for the behavior of these people during such a serious and no one time moment and everybody is there because they’re nosy.

[01:04:46] Of course there is no. It’s the place to be sitting around joking laughing and it’s happy go lucky.

[01:04:56] They’re so respectful. It is. It is.

[01:05:00] And they have to put on the facade that look. Jehovah’s people are so happy. Even the face in the face of such tragedy. Because you know we have this hope. Please tell me that they weren’t preaching to the other people who were there.

[01:05:23] Not that I noticed. OK. I just I can just I mean they’re just so tone deaf.

[01:05:29] I mean I know that they they look up like certificate you know like they’ll see like obituaries and and they’ll send people stuff it’s just so horrifying. I just I just hope that they weren’t doing anything like that they’re in the palliative care unit. I mean I’m sorry I’m so sorry that it put DVDs and just about every family room and kitchen where they did it. Oh. So then how did things.

[01:06:06] How did things go. You know I mean obviously you know we we know how this story ends. Yes. For your sister. But how how does that you know transpire how we’re you know it seems like you weren’t treated very well leading up to it. How were you treated as that was going down or is as you know afterward.

[01:06:27] How did they treat you so fake like after my sister passed they cared for all about 15 minutes. Maybe not even that. I went in to say goodbye to my sister because it was it was time the nurses said but I didn’t make it back down the hallway in time. She had passed by the time I walked into the room so I was in shock and I come out of the room and I just kind of laid down on the floor. I just couldn’t breathe. So everybody is is pulling on me. I’m not the type person that likes to be touched. I don’t do physical contact and they’re all choking me they’re pulling on my clothes and you know. Are you OK. They’re asking me over and over again and they reach up to this crowd of people and I grab onto my aunt’s hand and that’s when she knew it was time to step in. My aunt is the most easygoing person you will ever meet in your life. Just go with the flow. Quiet chilled out person. She went into full on Hulk mode. Witnesses fly in every direction down the hallway and then they didn’t care. I never heard from another one again. Not a message. Not a not a visit not a phone call not nothing.

[01:07:59] You see them at the memorial or whatever.

[01:08:03] I didn’t. I had completely stopped everything. You know Bubba. Two months before she passed. So I never I never was in a situation to encounter them again at the elders.

[01:08:17] Up

[01:08:17] until that point we’re trying to call on me visit me but I never seen or heard of them again after my sister.

[01:08:31] When

[01:08:31] I said memorial I didn’t mean the memorial that they all energies I’m so I’m at the memorial of your sister. Oh

[01:08:38] my goodness. That was that was that was wild. Yeah I seen them. At the service. I I waited outside until just before it started and there was zero emotional connection whatsoever. I mean they use it. They use the service not to remember the person but to recruit people. It’s a sales pitch. Who is the big recruitment right did it. Everybody was high as kites self medicated on whatever it was. It was a mess. Although all the witnesses were high on their prescriptions and just making a scene.

[01:09:29] It was.

[01:09:31] There is a lot of prescription abuse.

[01:09:35] Oh

[01:09:36] it was.

[01:09:37] It

[01:09:37] was a scene I mean what kind of scene what do you know where they just.

[01:09:44] Well

[01:09:44] besides the over overdramatic grieving very loud and you know they’re walking around talking to people and they’re just no one. One lady came up to my aunt and she’s so high and she’s like touching her hair and she’s like Oh your hair is so soft and like she’s walking around doing this to everybody.

[01:10:15] Hi I’m if we couldn’t get out of there fast enough.

[01:10:20] So.

[01:10:21] So you did at least OK so it was not what you would have wanted. No but you at least got to say goodbye I guess.

[01:10:35] Yes I did get to attend my sister’s burial. OK. I got cut off more with mom. As things progressed with me. I was I was cut off a lot more with my sister. I did have a little more leeway.

[01:10:56] OK. All right. So then how did how long after you because your mom and your sister were diagnosed at roughly the same time correct.

[01:11:08] Yeah. You were diagnosed just three days apart.

[01:11:11] OK. So then how did things how did things transpire after this went down with your sister.

[01:11:24] Well my sister passed and me and my mom passed in January and this is of what year last year May of last year May of last year and then January of this year.

[01:11:38] Yes. Wow this is so fresh. Yes. OK.

[01:11:45] So after my sister passed my mom the same depression she did when when we were kids just living for paradise.

[01:12:00] Spiral she lived on repeat again.

[01:12:05] When. When dad was sick. My mom everyday would say we just have to make it to tomorrow. Cause the Paradise might be here tomorrow right. And that’s how she lived her life that’s how we all.

[01:12:19] That’s how we all lived it. And so when my sister passed she she went back to that again where she just didn’t care about anything else on the outside world. You just have to make it to tomorrow. Because Will the paradise.

[01:12:37] We’ll be here. He was hoping that for herself as well. You know with her candidate.

[01:12:43] Yeah yeah.

[01:12:46] But then she. Then there was a lot of pressure on me.

[01:12:51] Of course you know when my sister was passing and I went into to see her the last day. You know she.

[01:12:58] She grabs my hand and she says you know promise me you’ll be in the new system. Promise me you’ll be there too.

[01:13:07] Because she knows that I am not participating.

[01:13:11] So mom grabbed on to that there is a lot there’s quite a bit of pressure for a little while until she got distracted again.

[01:13:26] Senior elders at one point after that after my sister passed I made some friends in the community here which was big for me I’d never had friends before. And after she passed I mean I hadn’t paid my bills I had done my taxes I had and I just dropped everything and do any of the things they needed to. So one friend stopped in and helped me get that done and another friend showed up with a carload full of groceries and to help me out. And well they are here. The elders knock on my door and and not to ask me if I’m okay or if I need anything but to simply ask me if they’re able to reach me on my cell phone.

[01:14:11] How else could they get a hold of me if there was ever you know a natural disaster or something. Where would I go and what phone numbers could they use to track me down.

[01:14:24] This was not the time and shut it down.

[01:14:26] But that’s when I really realized I had made the right decision.

[01:14:39] Yeah I mean you’re you’re in a house with people Carrie what about you for the first time. Yes.

[01:14:48] Yeah. Who truly care yes. I think I know I’ve I’ve had many of those moments since leaving as well. The stuff we were told about the people on the outside is just not necessarily true at all.

[01:15:03] And I’m I mean it’s amazing to see the difference.

[01:15:11] What real love looks like and the conditional fake for a parent’s love that we grew up with.

[01:15:24] So then how did things go from there.

[01:15:29] I mean you’ve got these friends who are helping you now but your mom is still sick and yet probably expecting you to be this witness.

[01:15:47] They were distracted. They they got extremely faithful because know and I would never I never wanted to take that away from them because this hope of paradises is what got them through. It’s what made Mom not scared. It made her OK. Sure. So that’s one. One good thing it I didn’t share that that hope or belief but it made her OK. But they got so distracted in their own life and the they were tired of seeing the decisions that I was making.

[01:16:29] So you know they they would come in and visit the kids sometimes or we would talk a little bit but they knew what was going on.

[01:16:42] They didn’t ask questions there isn’t a whole lot to talk about. It was. It was tricky.

[01:16:47] It was a tricky situation. I think I think mostly the elders maybe they left me alone because they didn’t want to disfellowshipped me. Well my mom was alive.

[01:17:03] OK.

[01:17:06] It was obvious you know people accidentally tag you and things on Facebook. So yeah it’s hard at all party hall over Facebook you know.

[01:17:18] Yeah somebody on tag me quick so they they seem based they seen what was going on. Dad didn’t really put his foot down with me until mom was in the hospital. When my sister passed I had decided I had so much regret.

[01:17:47] For not standing up for my right to be part of the family. This is my sister. This is my time to grieve. I have rights and I didn’t stand up for them. I let them all be taken away. I had a lot of regret over that no I should’ve just stood up and told people to go home. But I didn’t. Because I felt you know small guy had you know my life choice maybe less than I guess I viewed myself at that point.

[01:18:21] And then they make you feel small your whole life. Yeah you’re not supposed to even fight. You don’t follow your heart don’t lean on your own understanding. Yeah it’s a group think type thing. So you had no chance and when there.

[01:18:35] Yeah. When there’s 35 and 40 of them and just one to me I just didn’t stand up from you and you knew that you’re you know had you stood up and told them that.

[01:18:47] Let’s say you did solemn to leave.

[01:18:48] I mean you’re your sister and your mom and your dad would have disagreed with you. So you know you were voiceless and powerless in that situation.

[01:18:58] Yeah.

[01:18:59] Yeah during that time I got more determined and more confident in my choices. And I told myself that not this time not this time.

[01:19:15] Well I guess I just walked over this. This is my right now I’m gonna stand up for myself and and I did real good for about three days. Treatment was even worse this time.

[01:19:32] You know they I didn’t allow so many people to be there so there was a group of about people you know they all brought in food and eat it in front of you and you know you were allowed to eat any of it and when the doctors came out to give they would take me aside and give me updates because I was a little more emotionally stable at that point for them to give me more information. Sure.

[01:20:01] They came to me quite a bit so I would come over to update people and they would put their hand up and say No I’m sorry I don’t want to speak to you I’ll wait for your father to update us. Yeah. I was traveling back and forth every day on the bus on Metro Transit because I had come back to look after my girls because my cousin they had a job to work in the morning so somebody had to be with the kids in the early morning hours.

[01:20:27] And then when they got back I’d catch the bus back in no of course nobody’s going to offer to pick you up from the bus station and you can nobody’s going to offer to you know where your kids and nobody cared of course there is no bed yet again for me to sleep in so my aunts they kindly arranged for me to stay in a hotel because I stayed two nights two nights. I didn’t have to travel back. So they put me up because nobody gave me a bed to sleep in a bottle.

[01:21:02] So because I was talking to the doctors. Like when I would see them come out I would go and find them and say OK update me. And so they started reading me scriptures about being obedient to your parents they felt I was overstepping my father I’m not letting him take the lead.

[01:21:30] How did you not stab. Oh I want him. That’s my eyes did I. My answers. Yeah. Shooting daggers. Oh my God. It is here it is. It’s overcast so insane.

[01:21:48] It was bad and nobody would let me be in the room alone with mom oh somebody would always follow me and nobody would leave me alone with her.

[01:21:56] What were you going to do like convince her to leave. Quote The truth at the end or something. I mean they’re so weak.

[01:22:07] Well I don’t know. But no they wouldn’t.

[01:22:11] One of the one of the regular pioneers actually that was there that wouldn’t leave because she self entitled herself is my mother’s best friend which my mom told me everything. I knew that that was true but. I wrote my mother song. Like my mom went into the hospital she because it was her wish to be medicated and unaware of what was going on. She was in a state of unconscious fruit for the whole time. But this regular pioneer sister wrote her a song. She does. She can’t sing and she also is not musically inclined but she wrote my mom a song can you. Can you guess what what song is you. She wrote it to she stripped the lyrics and put her own lyrics on this on this song. Oh I.

[01:23:07] I could.

[01:23:09] I have no idea.

[01:23:12] Use the National Anthem. What. I’m not lying.

[01:23:17] She used and this is the Canadian national anthem correct.

[01:23:21] Yeah so. Oh Canada. Yes. She she wrote my mom.

[01:23:33] There could be a way.

[01:23:37] I’ve never experience anything. So obviously at this point I’m obviously upset with how I’m being treated. You know I’m left you can’t be alone mom. And then I’m left to sit in a room by myself until it’s time to go home. It is just people are reading me scriptures and my dad obviously sees my irritation and so he takes me aside. What’s your problem. So I tell him No I’m fed up with this. You know people are are blatantly you know disrespecting me in this situation. And then I go on to explain the things that have incited diamond. He just looked me right in the face and he said you know that you’re treated this way because you are worldly.

[01:24:44] And if I was to ask anybody to go home it would be you I just broke down and that’s when I gave up my fight to stand up for my rights. For that that split second I gave up sure what we’re fighting for at that point I was I was fighting.

[01:25:12] You know look I promised myself that I was going to stand up and be strong and stick up for myself. And I did that with Mom. Up until that point you know go ahead and read me your scriptures. But you know I’m not No I didn’t stand down if I want to go in and see my mom when I want to see my mom I’m gonna do it. And you know I I was I fought for my rights.

[01:25:38] When my dad said that gave up more of course. I mean what’s left.

[01:25:47] You know I think that there is nothing. There is nothing left.

[01:25:52] Yeah. He just took the air out of the room there. I mean there’s are you going to take in your own.

[01:25:59] Yeah in a vacuum.

[01:26:01] As God it broke me that that one sends you know I just I couldn’t wrap my brain around it to justify this level of cruelty because I’ve been labeled as as worldly just no.

[01:26:25] You know maybe in your eyes I am but I’m still her daughter I’m still a child and you’re still his daughter. Yeah you know. Yeah.

[01:26:41] Either I don’t even know what to say to that that’s just there. They’re just it’s just mind blowing how the basic humanity you know even animals no talk about you know you talk about being like a mama bear or something like you know.

[01:27:03] You know ladies we’ll talk about that you know.

[01:27:08] Certainly there are animals who eat their young. You can’t say all animals are great parents. I’m not going to anthropomorphize them but certainly.

[01:27:21] Yeah.

[01:27:22] You expect more from human parents. Yeah. And. Have a right to expect more.

[01:27:34] That level of I just don’t see it coming. I didn’t know if you don’t want to really talk to me. No that’s okay.

[01:27:45] But to just me to go home so dehumanizing.

[01:27:51] Yeah then then then mom passed away the next night now we’re you there for that or had you know just that when you when you say you gave up you just you just left.

[01:28:04] I went home and I turned my phone off.

[01:28:09] Oh no.

[01:28:12] The doctor said that they would call me if I needed to come during the night and of course my cousin if I woke them up at 2 o’clock in the morning and said Take me. I mean they would have done it.

[01:28:22] Sure. I went home and turned my phone off and I can’t say I can’t say I blame you.

[01:28:32] I mean that so my dad decided to talk to me.

[01:28:38] After that he called me the next morning after mom passed he said and get her stuff I’m going to give it away and of course how long.

[01:28:56] How old is he now at the door with their hands out right.

[01:29:00] Yeah. So how long.

[01:29:02] Well after was this 16 hours.

[01:29:08] He’s ready to get rid of all her stuff and the witnesses are there with their hands out.

[01:29:13] That’s what happened with my sister when she passed her husband was ready the next morning. We packed up her stuff really brought it all back to my house.

[01:29:23] Every bit of it I mean I’m after mom passed I mean I’m dealing with people’s toothbrushes and underwear.

[01:29:30] They packed it all up and put it in my living room they can treat me this way.

[01:29:41] But when they need me to marry strong one into me to get stuff done and just give it to her.

[01:29:48] So he called me up the next morning and said come get it. So I drove in there and packed it all up and brought it here. I didn’t live here stay with my cousin for a week. Because there is no room for me to live here.

[01:30:07] Until I could get it stored away and sorted and worded and all that Jehovah’s Witness is a really good at contacting you when they need you for something. If you’re a person who can get anything done at all. Yeah they they they see you. That’s the one time in life they see you they see who is that guy or that girl can get stuff done they have money or they have a business and they can hire or whatever and like a true narcissist it’s all about them and what they need.

[01:30:47] And so boom they’re drawn to you like a magnet.

[01:30:50] Yes wow.

[01:30:54] So what did you do from there. I mean how did things go with your relationship with your dad and I mean it was that just a header.

[01:31:05] Well couple weeks after I called up my dad and nobody else was answering their phone and so I was excited because the daycare has or the child care had gone through for me to actually start going to work in six months time everything’s set up it’s ready to go I’m going to. So I was excited. Nice. I am considering all the crap that’s happened. You know I finally had a happy moment. And so I called my dad and I was like you know things are good and they just I just wanted to tell you that things. Things are good. And I got a huge lecture on how I’m killing his grandchildren and I need to go to the meetings because a brother will marry me. Take care of me and that’s what’s most important. Had very little contact after that.

[01:32:13] With my own family. There was kind of a.

[01:32:20] A car driving by my own family.

[01:32:29] There was this where there really wasn’t much to say anymore than it was before my wife and I had ever disassociated. It was even before. I think we had seen my disfellowshipped brother and made that choice and took that stand. I think that could kind of tell that we just weren’t really into it anymore we weren’t into the whole Witness thing. We were we were pulling away and they just there was just nothing to talk about anymore like it. That’s all they have. So they don’t care about anyone or anything beyond that beyond what they’re doing at the Kingdom Hall or whatever. So there’s just there’s just nothing to say it’s just done it died became so obsessed.

[01:33:30] Yeah because of his hope he’s going to see them again.

[01:33:35] So he needs to be faithful as you know he needs to follow the rules right to the letter and just be there.

[01:33:48] It just gave nothing else to talk about like you said so then what have you done that would have been mean.

[01:33:57] So you set goals. Yeah a couple months ago. Wow. So what has transpired in these last few months. How is Ben.

[01:34:13] Well there’s been a lot of therapy involved.

[01:34:15] Good for you. Therapy is very important.

[01:34:19] Yeah it has been it has been but I recently found out that dad buried mom a couple of weeks ago.

[01:34:33] Never told me now yeah I guess I didn’t even think about that.

[01:34:39] So did you. That’s horrific. Did you go to a memorial for it.

[01:34:45] Or were you even told about it or anything.

[01:34:47] I went to the service you dig into the service for your mom. I did go to the service. Oh yeah. And I’m golf more as. It was the same thing very impersonal with my sister. The burial was was very personal. Because it was just the family there and it.

[01:35:08] I don’t know. Symbolic in some way I guess it was just quiet. Was it a recruitment scene. Nosy people it wasn’t there was just awesome. And so I was just waiting to have that with mom and he just went ahead and buried earned in Tony I’m sorry.

[01:35:31] That’s horrible. Yeah it’s um it’s you know I’ve thought of every possible.

[01:35:40] Because he’s just he thinks he’s going to see her again really soon.

[01:35:44] Right. The burial wasn’t important to him. It did. He didn’t need to be there. He wasn’t there himself. No he wasn’t even that wow. He wasn’t even there. No he just gave the OK for my grandfather to bury her. I mean he could have just texted me and told me the time. Yeah. Do you even know where she was buried with my sister. OK.

[01:36:17] Yes so you can. You can visit I guess.

[01:36:22] But it’s just when you have your your mind set on how it’s going to be.

[01:36:27] I was like this is like I could picture it like this. This because I hadn’t cried or grieved or you know this was going to be my time to just let it go. Yeah. He took he took that from me and never said another word to me.

[01:36:48] A word um aunt had told me she’s worked up about half in me all near death so she just spit it out.

[01:37:04] Oh by the way she.

[01:37:07] Oh man I’d like. I’ve heard of this. I’ve heard I’ve actually read on forums where I guess maybe even beyond this they were people didn’t even know that a parent died and they just. Yeah yeah. And then I just find out later there’s someone else because nobody tells them I.

[01:37:35] I can’t. I don’t even know.

[01:37:37] I don’t I had never heard of anything like that before.

[01:37:44] Yeah I was. My dad died two and a half something like that two and a quarter years ago something like that and I was stunned at the time and I was able to go to my mom let me come to hospice to see him. But one last time but as soon as I left hospice that was it. Like I wasn’t I wasn’t going to be invited to the memorial or anything like that. I mean I didn’t know that at the time but you know that’s just how it was going to be. So no they don’t. Jehovah’s Witnesses. Rob you of the ability to grieve properly. Yeah. I remember when my. I’m honestly I’m kind of weird around death. I don’t. It’s something I still yes processing myself you know when you grow up in the coal you don’t think you’re ever going to die. It’s like somebody told me at 38 years old that I’m going to die you know someday like that.

[01:38:55] Oh that’s so weird. For anyone listening who was never a witness. But when you buy into that.

[01:39:02] Like I never even thought about death as a possibility. We weren’t supposed to die. The world was going to end and we were going to walk into a little paradise and it feel like Adam and Eve or you know back in the day. But some no one of the things that my I have one person that I cared about died when I was a kid and that was my grandfather and he was never a witness. He was just a good dude. And remember you know going to the viewing and things like that and how emotional it was I remember afterward being able to go back to my grandparents house with family around and we sat around and we you know we told stories and we laughed and we cried and there’s a there’s a catharsis in that and there’s a catharsis in being able to you know I would go back to my grandmother’s house and my grandpa wasn’t there and somehow I think that helps you. I was just a kid but it helps me you know kind of grass what had truly happened and when you’re shunned you get none of that. We never got to go back and see my dad’s chair empty. I never ever got to talk to a family member again and reminisce about the good times or even the bad times. You know they just that possibility doesn’t exist and it’s just the most Jehovah’s Witnesses. Are pretty inhuman already and then they they just take away that last aspect of dignity and humanity in the most personal of situations. And it’s just. There just really aren’t words to describe that and I’m sorry for. I’m sorry that so much was taken from you.

[01:41:13] And that just seems hollow.

[01:41:19] And they are they strip you they strip you of all your rights. You know you’re no longer a family member you’re.

[01:41:29] Somebody described it as being a ghost and yeah you’re ghosted. You just they just disappear one day and think that on some level we’re used to that. Maybe. I don’t know. I can’t speak for you. You had such a small cluster of people around you as as a witness growing up. You know I grew up in a large congregation and I was used to just you know people come and people go like me. I had so many friends who got disfellowshipped and just disappeared and I didn’t know what happened so on and so I guess for me death was kind of the same. They just disappeared. I’m just used to that. But not normal.

[01:42:22] No. No it’s not normal at all. And I’m I’m so glad that you have a therapist who I guess knows what normal is around this stuff.

[01:42:35] Yeah you know. Yeah.

[01:42:37] And it was good for my kids too because I reached out to a lot of people and I was four years old. So she’s my oldest and she she understood what happened to some degree I needed to have that conversation with her and of course there’s a a room full of people all telling their children that you know my mom is just sleeping. She’s gone to sleep. She’ll be back in paradise. That’s what they’re telling all these kids.

[01:43:11] And so I had reached out to two specialists on how to deal with this properly.

[01:43:20] And so she she was there visiting me at the at the hospital and mom and my mom and she comes out to talk to me and she said and I’m asking her you know what do I. What do I say. And she says Just promise me that you won’t tell your children that she’s sleeping.

[01:43:39] Wow.

[01:43:42] Because every time your child goes to sleep they’re going to think that they’re not going to wake up.

[01:43:48] Oh my gosh I never thought about that.

[01:43:52] Yeah neither had I. So you have to really I really had to to rewire that witness thinking at that point to handle things properly with the kids.

[01:44:08] And that’s why the burial list was so devastating to me too. It’s. It’s good for kids at that age too. I understand there. They’re gone. Yeah they can. They can see it. And then they understand it. Yes. And then that was taken away from my kids to my kids.

[01:44:33] I’m not going to say that I did anything wrong but in their eyes I did do something wrong and hence I was cut out of the picture. But my children didn’t do anything right. It is pretty pretty and unfair to them. But I hadn’t I hadn’t realized until you know I was talking to these people with these these Jehovah’s Witness children they’re told and how detrimental it can be I never even thought about some of those aspects.

[01:45:14] So then you know like officially out or what is your and they haven’t disfellowshipped me.

[01:45:30] I am viewed as such. I there’s no there’s no contact or you. My dad my dad treats me as such an he made quite obvious over the last month.

[01:45:45] But the I am now that everything’s done and settled you know I finally feel free.

[01:45:56] Yeah. Now I’m going to do do what I want to do.

[01:46:04] Going to raise my kids the way I want to raise my kids and not feel guilty or pressured for it.

[01:46:11] An is there anything you know what are you and I know I gave you a list of questions and I know you’ve worked pretty hard on some of the answers. Yes. Is there anything you know I’d like to talk to you now about. You know where you want to go going forward. But yes. But you know is there anything that that I that you want to touch on like why others would think you left or what you’d like people to know about the religion or anything. I mean this is also fresh.

[01:46:51] There’s some of these questions you know I don’t know if you’ve had enough distance to to process some of this stuff no.

[01:47:05] No. Mostly the point that I had wanted to make from all this is is either people that are leaving or have left or right. No witnesses is just as to stand up for yourself don’t let them know you back down from one second and they will take everything no date despite what they say. We still have rights. We can. You can fight it.

[01:47:39] That’s so true. They just the things I remember there was a point where I realized that pretty much what you said they’ll take everything they just Jehovah’s Witnesses just take and take and take and so you have nothing left and they never give you anything in return.

[01:48:00] They make you feel guilty for it. You know I’ve been constantly tiptoeing around my dad’s feelings. I should have stood up and asked him where Mom was because they didn’t bury her right away. I should have called up and and demanded the answers that I deserved an. And then I would have been there if I had stood up for myself but instead I just took the shunning and kept quiet so that I didn’t didn’t hurt his feelings. That make me uncomfortable and because of that I lost my rights because I didn’t stand up. There was no fixing that now I know I’ll move forward from that.

[01:48:44] Other people haven’t been there yet. Know I hope that nobody does. But can you can fight for it. Yeah.

[01:48:55] Do you think that’s you think that your dad would have told you I think.

[01:49:03] Yeah. If I had. If I hadn’t confronted him and said you know where is mom and asked him direct questions he would have answered them.

[01:49:11] OK. OK. All right. Yeah.

[01:49:14] I just I just wondered how he probably would have. He probably would have answered them but he wasn’t going to initiate any kind of conversation with me and so I just let it go. I just trusted that with something of that gravity that he would tell me when it was time.

[01:49:32] Oh well of course. Yes of course you would.

[01:49:35] I didn’t expect the shunning to go to that extent. Right. Right. I had never heard of it before. I know I didn’t know that that it had happened to anybody else so I didn’t see it coming in. Sure. Well let’s just let it happen.

[01:49:52] This is this is this is a great warning to other people. Yes. Now they can they can know that you know. Yes. This is as far as it can go. You know they they can I’m sure there’s some way you can even go farther.

[01:50:08] Like I said some people never even take it from you. They will. Yeah yeah yeah that’s true.

[01:50:13] They’ll take it all. Yeah.

[01:50:16] Well I’m so sorry that so much was taken from you. You know it’s not fair. And there’s really no there’s just give you a hug if I was there. There’s just not words that can really even touch you know the breadth of this experience. But you do have this new freedom like you said you are finally set free. I will say that you know for all of us as long as you have family that’s in there is always like this.

[01:50:59] This tie it’s it’s hard to ever I guess truly be set free. I mean I guess nobody’s ever free from anything in life 100 percent.

[01:51:10] But the freedom that you get is just so it’s just so so amazing. When you realize that your life is finally yours Yeah there’s no expectations.

[01:51:27] Yeah. Well you put on you were.

[01:51:30] Yeah you know that’s gone and it’s pretty great.

[01:51:35] Yeah. So where are you now and what’s what do you want out of your life now.

[01:51:44] Want to figure out who I am and what I like. You know now that I know that I’m allowed to do that I’ve given myself the freedom to do that. You know what. I walked into my therapy one day and started off.

[01:51:59] And she said you know tell me who you are and what you like and let’s start there and I just look at her and I got nothing to say and I just think for a minute and I said well I love my children I know that and that’s all I could come up with.

[01:52:21] I didn’t know what I like to do or you know who I was I never got to just explore that in. So that’s that’s what I want and I want to give that freedom to my children. I want to get to that place and and share that with them. It’s it’s it’s not easy for the first little while you know I felt so guilty for a long time that it was so bad that during the day I had to take pictures of everything I did in the day and my children. Everything I did I took a picture of it so that at the end of the day I could look back and say Oh yeah well I did this good. And that was good. And I realized that I did something good in the day because when you’re not living the witness lifestyle you’ve you feel like you’re not you know those expectations are being met so you can feel less than or like you’re not accomplishing what you’re supposed to. Need to change that. And realize that I can do good.

[01:53:29] Outside of that absolutely.

[01:53:36] I mean I’ve been out now for two and a half years I can say that I still feel somewhat like what you’re saying.

[01:53:45] You know trying to figure out who you are and what you want what you like what you don’t like. You know there’s there’s this whole world to explore out there and it’s exciting. It’s scary at times but know you just as you go through this process and you discover these things. I mean it’s just just amazing. You know what actually is in this world and what we can experience. And high as we can get out of life. That we’re just never there was just never around in the environments that we grew up in. There was just no there was never any true joy.

[01:54:32] No. And you can have that now. And and this is so amazing. Any time I hear of somebody who gets out and they have kids and they can give their kids you know that more from the beginning of life.

[01:54:48] Yeah man that’s just to give them that leg up.

[01:54:52] It’s funny too because it’s so exciting for me to like my my daughter just we just celebrated her her birthday and she’s she’s four now but this is the first time actually you know celebrating it. And it was the most exciting thing. It was just so much fun that my my friends stages they kept laughing at me for one I had no idea how to do a birthday party. I never done Oh thing. I never experienced one so what am I doing here. They thought it was hilarious and then the excitement that comes from it. They just they thought it was almost comical to watch me try these things for the first time. But beautiful. It’s fun. Yeah yeah yeah.

[01:55:37] It’s beautiful to be able to No. Even it you say you. Twenty five I think. Twenty seven. Twenty seven. You know to be able to even at twenty seven whether you’re twenty seven or. I think my wife was thirty six when she had her first birthday. Like those things are just there’s so much fun. It’s a memory and I kind of think it’s cool because when you’re an adult you get to remember it like my wife.

[01:56:09] You remember her first birthday. You know how many can say that. Yeah.

[01:56:16] I know. So you’ll get to do that too. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:56:23] You know it is awkward at first. Try to figure out how to do this stuff. But the cool thing is you don’t get it. You can do it how you want. You don’t have to. You don’t have like a family tradition that you need to stick to or some not. It’s yours. Do what you wanted.

[01:56:43] The problem is I would overthink it so much. Like with the birthday situation I would know. Then I was feeling bad for all the other kids because all the other kids aren’t getting a present too. Oh yeah yeah. So I’m like well this doesn’t exactly seem fair. You know I’m just overthinking every aspect of a birthday. My friends thought it was absolutely hilarious.

[01:57:05] Oh sure it is from the outside. Yeah.

[01:57:10] I just don’t get it. Yes absolutely. Absolutely.

[01:57:15] I agree with you. You know that whole like. Well wait a minute. What about the other kids. They’re not getting a gift.

[01:57:25] No.

[01:57:26] At my wife’s first birthday party I had gift. We invited a bunch of people mostly people that we cleaned for and some new friends. We amazed that we had been out and we rented a place and we invited all these people and like we had like 70 people show up.

[01:57:50] You know they had kids and I’m like you know this is my wife’s first birthday. They’re going to you know these kids are going to see my wife opening presents and stuff that that people got her so I had little gift bags made for all the kids so that all the kids would have something because I don’t know how this works and you know I mean it’s cool that kids kids don’t always expect something in life but you know you don’t you don’t know that. And I wanted them to have fun and walk away with something to know. And so here it is my wife’s birthday party and I spent all kinds of money you know do you know.

[01:58:30] Yeah I almost did the same thing. You know I wanted to have a little something for everybody and make friends there.

[01:58:35] You know they step in you know thankful for them and they’re like No they’re getting cake that is their president. They get cake. They will be happy.

[01:58:44] Yes. Now I totally get it. I totally get it. And every time that somebody is birthday I want to buy them something and it’s like you know what I can’t afford to buy everybody. It’s you know it’s it is an interesting foray into the real world to see how things work.

[01:59:04] And it’s definitely a learning experience.

[01:59:09] It is. It is. But there’s so much good that comes from it.

[01:59:14] Not all good. I mean I’m sure you know there’s been things that you have to learn that are a little you know you might have anxiety around just because you don’t know what you don’t know yet. At least that’s me because I have a lot of anxiety naturally anyway.

[01:59:30] I’m an over thinker but yeah it’s just there’s just so much that you’re going to get to experience and and you’re gonna get to experience so much through your kids. I’m just really excited for you. I think that it’s it’s great that you have this opportunity finally you know to to be able to be you and to live your own life it’s pretty great.

[01:59:59] I want to thank Tamara for being brave enough to put her story out there so soon for being open to sharing some really tough things. And honestly I couldn’t be happier that she’s finally found freedom from such a bleak and somewhat oppressive in ways you know outlook you’d like to send messages of support to Tamara. You can do so by going to my Web site that shunned podcast dot com and you can leave a comment for there on the episodes page. You can also find the resources that were mentioned in the episode there and the video for the song that she chose to represent her journey facts. You should be able to on your podcast out. You can probably find those same resources if you look there right now. That’s not the only place that you can comment on the episode. We also have a Facebook group called shunned podcast where we have people discussing episodes and their own lives and I try to do things to encourage members to find good things in life and to grow. As I stated earlier I want to give you some highlights of the past month in there just to kind of give you an idea of the supportive group that’s forming Wednesday we post things that we’re happy about in life this week and every weekend we post things that we’re doing for ourselves as part of self care something that we were never really taught to do in these calls. This month we’ve shared our Halloween costumes a lot a lot of really cool things in there. Pumpkins that we carved I made an announcement in there of a new project that I’m working on as well for the SJW community. We’ve also had one of our own that was just disfellowshipped. And unfortunately he’s now been officially shunned as well. And we rallied around him. So things are happening in there. And my goal is to keep it more about us as individuals and our stories and supporting one another than just you know kind of keeping it the latest Jacob stuff. There are plenty of groups for that if that’s if that’s what you want but this is kind of about us as human beings if that sounds like something that you’d be interested in. Head to Facebook. Look up the group called shun the podcast. You’ll see the logo there and just apply to join and I’ll approve you. You can also find the podcast on YouTube under the Channel called shunnedpodcast one word. And also on Instagram at shun podcast. Again one word. And on Twitter at shun podcast. Again one way you’d like to hear my story and a great insight into how the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses works. You can do so at the podcast called this SJW life. Also found at thisjwlife.com we haven’t really had any new Patriot supporters for the past couple of months. But I want to take the time to seriously think that people that really helped me make this show possible by supporting it financially Schoen takes not just work and time but there are also costs involved in getting the audio hosted on the website and getting transcripts keeping the equipment working all that kind of stuff you can show support for the show for as little as a dollar a month. And it means the world to me to know that others are in this with me. It’s encouraging to see people that want to support what I’m doing here. You can do so at Patriot and dot com slash shunned if you’re so inclined. And another great way to support the show. Both the shun podcast and also thisJ.W. life. Both can use it. Just go over to iTunes and leave a five star review for them. It helps them get found in the searches on there so that more people can find it and the more people that find it the more people that can be helped by these five cars next month I’m going to have a fascinating interview. I’m pretty excited about this one as well. It’s with someone that will be kept anonymous as long as she wishes to be kept that way. This person grew up in a small racist cult that was essentially a family cult. You might say it was kind of a white supremacist call and doctrine but it wasn’t you know it wasn’t with the intense hatred and and the violence that sometimes is attributed to those groups. But you know the doctrine itself you know was kind of in that realm. But what what you really going to see in there along with that is just how a cult forms how it starts. I was just amazed when I was doing the interview. It’s it’s a look into the seed of a cult how it can grow from one person to one person’s ideas. And it’s really fascinating. And I think this is an important episode not just because that but also because behind it is a woman that has been through so much and that is a beautiful person that shines through all the ugliness in her past we’re going to close out this episode with the song no hell yet by fair voyeur. And you can find a link to her song to the page on Page for the show to resources that were mentioned and more not just on the Web site but if you’re listening on a podcast app you can probably get it all in the app by looking at the description as well as we end all episodes love others do no harm. And go be happy. Go.