Episodes

Sydney is shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:41] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we expose the religions that you shunning as a tool to control people. Today I have an interview that I did with Sydney at the end of the interview I left in a part where I invite her to a local upon the first. And I actually got to meet Sydney for the first time at the Midwest upon the first near Indianapolis at the beginning of August so it was really cool to get to meet somebody before I even got to release their episode. And she got to meet a number of other ex Jehovah’s witnesses at this event. So I’ve been able to meet her in person and through this interview. And now you have a chance to meet her as well. Be sure to stick around after the interview. I have something new and I think it’s pretty cool that I’m going to announce that I think alike.

[00:01:27] So let’s go ahead and meet Sydney I am Sydney. Twenty eight. I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I am shunned all right.

[00:01:39] So then how was it that you came to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the first place.

[00:01:46] Well I would say technically I was born into it because my father’s parents were Jehovah’s Witnesses and he was a was witness but my mother her my dad dated when they were real young and they got married really young and even though she grew up in a strong Christian background she ended up converting to being a Jehovah’s Witness when they were married. And the funny thing about it is my mom was baptized and my dad wasn’t baptized but my dad’s dad was an elder and he married them. I don’t know if he was an elder. Yeah. I don’t know if he was an elder at the time that he married them but they got married pretty young I think my mom was like 17 maybe. And then they had me when she was 20. So she was a witness for a few years before they had me and he still wasn’t baptized. But yeah I would say that I was I was pretty much born into it even though my dad wasn’t excuse me he wasn’t super regular obviously but my mom was and then when she got disfellowshipped I was like 3 or 4 when they got divorced.

[00:03:08] So from that point on it was a split between a Jehovah’s Witness household and a Christian household.

[00:03:16] Gotcha. So your mom was disfellowshipped. Do you know you said you had a split between a Christian and a Jehovah’s Witness household. So I’m assuming that your mom stayed with the Jehovah’s Witness religion.

[00:03:33] No it was actually my dad that stayed because like I said his whole family was he has eight brothers and sisters and they’re all I mean they’re not all like baptized but they were all raised that way. So my dad’s side of the family they’re all still Jehovah’s Witnesses. My mom actually she when she got disfellowshipped. She never really whipped back or never really tried. I’m sure she got remarried Oakhurst each year. Then my step dad was not a Dover’s witness at all. And I think she had a really hard time with how she was disfellowshipped it really put a bad taste in their mouth because this is just like hearsay within my family. You know people will admit to things or won’t admit to things but apparently my dad had cheated on my mom with my aunt her sister and then because he wasn’t baptized he didn’t necessarily get in trouble for it.

[00:04:37] And the elders kept encouraging my mom to work it out with him and she was obviously not wanting to do that you know or I mean she tried for a little bit but then she ended up wanting to be just free of it. And I think that’s why her first relationship outside of my dad was really rushed. You know rationally have anywhere to go.

[00:05:05] Sure she can have a stranger cell from the family you know and this guy that she ended up marrying after my dad was like her biggest support I guess because he was he was friends with both my mom and my dad and it’s the whole it’s the whole thing.

[00:05:23] But anyway she she didn’t like the fact that he didn’t get in trouble and then she got disfellowshipped because of you know I’m divorcing my dad and they didn’t even like have a formal meeting for her. They just disfellowshipped her over the phone. Well they didn’t even give her the time of day.

[00:05:45] I thought really supposed to be given a chance to prove your repentance.

[00:05:50] Yeah I know. But I think because she moved in with another man they were just like oh well she’s just not even worth you know investigating what happened and she’s the one who’s baptized suffusing to be the one who was going to be punished for it.

[00:06:04] Anything without that magical baptism if you can avoid that you can skate on a lot of things. But if you are and you get baptized you’ll get in trouble for all kinds of things that the person who doesn’t get baptized can seem to skate on. Even though I mean like you said your dad was around the organization much longer than she was.

[00:06:25] Oh for sure for sure. And you know to what’s super sad you know that you say that as far as you get baptized in then it’s like you know the whole world is split on your shoulders and all this responsibility in my step mom.

[00:06:40] In time we get baptized together.

[00:06:43] And to this day I mean now we’re we’re we’re definitely not talking we’re not we don’t have really a relationship anymore but for a long time after I had left and was disfellowshipped she would just say to me and me and I just wish you hadn’t got baptized things would be so much easier I could see you would not feel this way.

[00:07:03] And I’m thinking from a Christian standpoint I think well this is one of the most horrible things you could say to a person like I wish you hadn’t dedicated your life to Jesus and made it possible to be with him after death because I want to talk to you right. So selfishly even if you’re whatever like I’m not anything anymore I’m not Christian I’m not I’m not anything I don’t go to a church and you know I don’t even know what I believe anymore just because I was so like messed up that way. But I was so sad that she would always say that because it’s like that is such a cop out for you because you have a relationship with my sister and with my brother because they are not baptized. They don’t go but yet they smoke weed and they do all these things that I don’t even do. And yet I’m being punished because I don’t want to be a witness anymore and whatever. I just think the whole thing’s messed up.

[00:08:01] Oh no it absolutely is messed up in every way. Just like what you said there about you know the way she she treated your baptism and said that she almost wish you had been baptized. That’s an interesting way of looking at have had looked at it from that angle before.

[00:08:19] So you know when you were a Kurd obviously now like you said you were you were kind of living between this Jehovah’s Witness household in this you know kind of more just christian household. How did that impact you as a kid.

[00:08:42] As far as you know the world view that you had because you were kind of torn between the two.

[00:08:50] Yeah. It was not easy. I mean I know there’s a lot of people who you know they’re forced to do it and they don’t really have another choice. So I felt that I was blessed to have an outlet through my mom in her family. When it came to that as a child. But my mom suffered from a lot of issues obviously after leaving now and going through the trauma that she did. And as a kid being with her was hard too because she suffered from a lot of mental issues. I mean she wasn’t like crazy or anything but she just was a very impulsive person. And she worked a lot of jobs because she was like a single mom. And because of like her strong Christian background she felt the need to marry a man instead of just dating them you know. She felt like she was sleeping with another person. That it was you know she wasn’t going to hell for it. So she would marry these men she would date instead of dating them. And also there were a lot of turmoil with my mom and saw the world go be babysat by like mom to have my answer my grandmother. And so I guess that I I was really close to all of them and they were kind of a reprieve for me but at the same time there were a lot of good qualities about my dad my step mom when I would go there because they weren’t really regular when I was a kid we would go on a Sunday is that I would be with them cause they had every other weekend custody type of arrangement even like I would go on Sunday is with me. And it was fine other than like I would get spanked a lot. I’m taken back to the bathroom a lot because I didn’t really know how to sit still in Oleg differentness Sunday school or just not going to church at all you know.

[00:10:57] Yeah you’re expecting a small crowd to sit for two hours in a boring environment and not move.

[00:11:05] But before long to expect from a kid.

[00:11:07] Well I think too I did. There were other children around my age at the Keenum hall that we went to but I didn’t I didn’t really click with one because I came from. Also on my mother’s side of the family who are very Christian they’re very mean they go to church. And my one aunt was like really big in her church on the other and she doesn’t necessarily go to church but she’s a very strong believer in so there would always be teaching me about God and how you should be and how you should treat other people. And you know and I thought while this is cawkers I see that they are doing that and they’re saying that and I will go to my dads and they will go to a Kingdom Hall and they will be like well we need to do this this this and that. And then like you know a week later when we didn’t go to the meeting they does do whatever they want and whenever they wanted list you know like excuses that the witnesses you know they would use teaching tools at times that they wanted to teach you. But then they never did it themselves kind of thing.

[00:12:13] No I mean that continued on into my teenage years so that’s interesting because that’s that’s the opposite of what as a young witness were taught. I remember being taught you know that essentially we as witnesses we talk the talk AND walk the walk.

[00:12:32] All right.

[00:12:33] But you know these other Christian religions they were just these things that you know these people put on on Sunday and then they took off as soon as they left church and they just went and did whatever they wanted and then they came back Sunday and put that personality back on and were certainly you know their church personality.

[00:12:51] But you know as this podcast is shown through a lot of the stories when you start getting into who what’s behind the scenes a lot of what was taught at the Keenum Hall in a lot of what the brothers and sisters professed to believe is not what they acted out in their home life and so it is very different. So what was your childhood like at home. I guess from the witness perspective what was it like when you were at that side of the family.

[00:13:28] Well you know it’s funny it’s my step mom. You know as she would I guess say this to me a lot as a kid but as an adult she has mentioned it more than a handful of times she would say you know I always felt bad for you because you just seem like a very depressed and sad kid. And I would say like I would think top editors say anything really because I don’t really know what to say to that. Because in my mind I was thinking I was a happy kid like you know I think the most depressing part of my childhood.

[00:14:04] You know I do want to hurt their feelings and saying theirs but I felt like maybe I was sad because I was with them you know I fell more myself in happy when I was with my mom’s family than I was with them and then I think that you know because this is a young kid like I said we only went once in a while.

[00:14:30] My step mom was not baptized. Even though she was like an avid Jehovah’s Witness and all her family were Jehovah’s Witness like her mom and her sisters and stuff like that so. Things didn’t really pick up in to being role serious until I was about 13. And before that I was able to go to school and have school friends and have school friends come over and play in sports and do all sorts of stuff because like I said it was legal once in a while thing. And then when I was 13 18. Well go back a couple of years and when I was 10 I hit my parents my step mom and my dad had my little brother and then they can use that as a manipulative tool to try and get me to want to live with them.

[00:15:23] So when I was 12.

[00:15:25] The custody arrangement changed between my parents and my mom signed papers before she really read excuse me read them.

[00:15:35] And mind you my dad does. There’s a lot of good qualities about my dad but my dad is a bully. And I think just the trauma that my mom has had in the past with him and his intense severe hatred for my mother. He bullied her in to signing all custody to him and my mom I don’t think really realized what she was signing. And so I only visited her like every other weekend and now I’m living with my dad. And they had full control over.

[00:16:12] Everything I did.

[00:16:14] And. You know I think that they really start there. I mean that Mester up to you and she really know what to do after that cause you know she only had me and she was in at the time. Abusive relationship with a man that I don’t remember if he ever laid a hand on her but he was extremely verbally mentally abusive been like controlled all the money and everything. So my mom was like in a in a really bad place.

[00:16:47] So we both got to be hard for you to you know being so young you suddenly not only has the chain of custody changed and that now you’re with your dad wore but also you’re in this totally different environment more your life had to change a lot.

[00:17:13] Well

[00:17:14] yeah for sure. Because to you know my dad he’s a contractor so he works all the time. My step mom was a nurse she wasn’tR.N. so she worked all the time and we ran a horse farm. For me it was like for my sister to especially because she’s seven years older than me. She’s my stepsister but you know we had a lot of horse chores. We had a lot of house chores we had a lot of things we had to do because both our parents worked full time. My dad was like 80 hours a week maybe and I said mom you know she would have a lot of overtime and on call and also my sister and I it was like clean the house make the food do the barn chores you know you need to get good grades in school in harm’s way to a lot of pressure on us as kids to do it. We had a lot of work we had to do. And I didn’t have to do that at my mom’s. Yeah I had to do homework and stuff. But you know we lived in a small house and there really wasn’t much to clean then. She liked to sit down and play games with me and he and all board games and dice games and we just we just spent time together so.

[00:18:30] Like you got a job.

[00:18:32] It was actually when I was a teenager I got upset because I don’t like horses I don’t like riding horses that really it’s had me years and I’m like I’m doing all these chores like yoga. Give me some sort of compensation for doing these tours like I know I’m your kid but I want nothing to do with this. And so I convince them to pay me eight dollars an hour to do it so.

[00:18:58] But sounds like home home was was pretty you know busy. So yeah. So I mean it’s it’s kind of no wonder you didn’t go to meetings super regularly and such because. How would you find time.

[00:19:16] Yeah it’s definitely the biggest part of it. And I think Penny scares me.

[00:19:20] My step mom she I think she used that as an excuse like I’m tired I’m not gonna let somebody bully me into going to a meeting when I’ve worked this many hours in a week like you know I think she felt like that’s my religion don’t make me feel bad for not going it’s not like I’m a non-believer. I just worked really hard this week. So mind your own business kind of thing you know. And then when I was 13 it was only obviously a year after lume with my dad my mom kind of had a total mental breakdown. At one point in Hurn I got to a really big fight.

[00:19:58] And I stopped going over and seeing her on my own. Because I couldn’t deal with that with her.

[00:20:07] And then that was the pushing point where my step mom was like you need to study with somebody I think you need something in your life you can’t just you know not have is.

[00:20:19] I think you will. You know it’ll make you happy. It’ll get you all you know out of this depression and it all gets you whatever. Besides the study here’s here.

[00:20:30] You know what you need. You need an escape. You need to escape into this thing here and forget your problems.

[00:20:37] Exactly which is what it ends up being for a lot of people.

[00:20:41] What I think too because my mom was disfellowshipped and really didn’t have a whole lot of interest at the time of being a Jehovah’s Witness anymore. It was a lot easier for them really.

[00:20:53] But look it now you’re a Jehovah’s Witness and your mom is disfellowshipped you can’t talk to her because she’s disfellowshipped.

[00:21:00] So now you know it was I think that was a word I didn’t even think about that. Pretty manipulative.

[00:21:07] And then my mom being who she is she is she wants to be Christian. She struggles a lot with some religion because she desperately wants to be in a relationship with God and have all of that but because of how messed up she became after being a Jehovah’s Witness. It’s been I mean she’s in her late forties and it’s still really hard for her. She says she still doesn’t really have a place she feels like she can call home when it comes to a religion. So for her she was. She was I think glad that I was studying to be a witness because she’s like oh what if it is the truth. Right. There’s still that in the back of your mind if you haven’t gotten to that point where you know it’s not you know. So she’s like what if it is I’m I’m glad my daughter studying and maybe I should try to go back to the Kingdom Hall and get reinstated and we can do it together. You know she immediately was like well we can do this together we can you can be baptized and I can be reinstated and then really really close. You know my martyrs.

[00:22:15] Yeah. Oh yeah yeah.

[00:22:19] So I mean it was kind of come in from both sides but in the end my mom was just like she just tried to be like OK well that’s how you feel that’s how you feel. I’m just gonna let you do your own thing and hopefully one day we can reconcile something you know.

[00:22:39] So the reality show IMO emotion in school. Did you have to change a lot. You know a lot of witness kids have trouble in school. You know it’s hard to not stand for the flag salute not Duni the holidays and such. You came originally from I guess you know the more dominant Christian family because you’re staying with your mom or wants that changed over. Did you have to go back to school with a new outlook on Thoon and really start changing.

[00:23:16] Oh my goodness yes. Because that was so hard for me too because you know I had one really good friend because I’d switch schools when I moved in with my dad.

[00:23:26] So I switched schools to the school that I went to until I graduated. And I met a girl and and I became really good friends. And to this day she’s my best friend still. And so when I moved in with my dad and I couldn’t celebrate birthdays anymore. I couldn’t really do anything like that stuff that they do at school. I didn’t necessarily. I guess protest in the not saluting the flag and stuff until I was studying at the age of 14. But before that like I would lie to my parents and be like oh yeah you know Rachel’s just having a party we’re just getting together for the volleyball team you know secretly it was her birthday party when they found out about that and I was so grounded. So it was a birthday party and it wasn’t a volleyball party rise. So yeah I I couldn’t you know I couldn’t do any of that stuff anymore. And then when I started studying it was just like well you know I’m not even gonna stand let alone salute an arm. It really didn’t feel super awkward until we had a veterans assembly where war veterans came in and you know they were doing a flag ceremony and I was sitting there and everybody was like really looking at me like how can you disrespect these men up on stage like that. I definitely feel really awkward in that situation. But I still sat there because this was what to do.

[00:25:03] So yeah that off really puts you in a bad situation and then you know having to make that change as a kid. It’s just really tough to be pulled in so many directions. What about at the at the Keenum Hall. How were you. How were you received when you you know we’re back with your with your dad. They kind of see that maybe as an opportunity to seize upon you a little bit.

[00:25:38] See that’s weird cause it totally didn’t happen like that. My dad doesn’t go to the Kingdom Hall. I mean now I think he goes more so because of a because of current circumstances. But even then he would only go to the memorial.

[00:25:56] Oh he he never went to the Kingdom Hall. But my step mom would go you know occasionally to the meetings and she’s like I think you need to study. So what happened was there’s two kingdom halls there’s one that was only 20 minutes away 15 20 minutes away from where we lived. And then there was another one that was 45 minutes away from where we live and we live in a really rural area. So it’s like you kind of. There’s not a lot of kingdom halls to choose from.

[00:26:24] And at that time they weren’t necessarily really picky about which one you go to just because there wasn’t a lot of people excuse me at the halls.

[00:26:32] So what happened was the one where we went to when I was a kid that was only a couple minute you know 15 minutes away is that moment like going there because the women always looked at her and judge Durran you know she felt like if her shirt was a little bit too low she got like rude glances at my step mom is very much like you don’t like me then keep it to yourself or like don’t look at me that way.

[00:26:54] She’s very much like I don’t know she didn’t like that kind of judgment.

[00:26:59] And so we started going to this other kingdom hall and that’s the one that my dad’s sister went to. So here’s my aunt found a girl who at the time I think with like maybe three or four years older than me and so I was like 14 to like 18 or 19 and very sweet girl I really clicked with her. But she went to this kind of hall that was far away so that became her new hall. We didn’t know anybody there and we really liked it because there was a lot of people my age there was a lot of you know pre-teen teen age young 20 year olds and it was a very active. Kingdom Hall as far as there was tons of parties. There were tons of cookouts and tons of get togethers. Because I loved volleyball and they couldn’t play volleyball in high school anymore. I actually found a whole group of people at 10 or 12 people that loved to play volleyball.

[00:28:03] So all of us at Keenum Hall like after a meeting like a night meeting we would go drive 10 minutes up to a volleyball court and outdoor volleyball court and play volleyball for hours after the King holiday.

[00:28:17] After the meeting. Oh yeah. So it was really super fun Hall to be a part of.

[00:28:23] Yeah that’s that’s rare. A lot of us were not bluff. Ruth you have so many opportunities for her association on housing meltdown and a lot of lessons though.

[00:28:38] You know I think that that was a definite draw for me too because I didn’t have a lot of friends in school. I just had like a handful maybe two or three really good friends in school but not like you know kind of felt like I was in a popular career old league.

[00:28:55] Everybody liked me and wanted me to go to these things because I’m the new girl and I’m doing so God and I’m so like faithful and all the things that I’m doing. And so I guess I felt the love bombing in that way where they’re like yes another new young person that we can hang out with and influence.

[00:29:13] So yeah it’s a big deal when a new person comes in and you feel like you have a new opportunity for friends because you know everyone in the congregation is especially among the young people is is pretty starved for friends.

[00:29:27] Yes. So it’s always you know an exciting time when there’s a new face.

[00:29:34] How did things you know how did how did it progressed to the point about TISM with you. You know from the time that you start living with your dad again you know up to that point a baptism. Well you know it happens so fast and in such a short amount of time and I think the biggest push.

[00:30:00] For me with it was the influence of all the young people. And the cool thing at the time because I had to distance myself from my friends at school. I could play volleyball anymore with them.

[00:30:17] And you know as a witness you were constantly talking about the Bible or talking about something that just happens to relate to what you were talking about and not really self or like distancing themselves from me. And then I got to where I felt uncomfortable talking about it with other people at school because everybody started looking at me like the weird girl who’s the witness so I actually ended up just becoming. Like a hermit crab other than the girl that I’d studied with at this new kingdom hall had a cousin who went to my high school and she was one grade up from me and she wanted to study with this with her cousin.

[00:31:05] So she would go pick Michelle up and she would pick me up and we would go hang out at her house.

[00:31:13] The girl I studied with we go hang out at her house and the girls she studied had a brother who was my age and went to because our school our high school was like the regular high school but then there was an arts school. And he went to the art school. So technically we would have been in the same school but he went to the Concord Academy. And anyway I became super fast friends with him and with Michelle incel because I had Michelle in high school with me. Then it was like I felt better about not having my worldly friends anymore because it was me and Michelle against everyone too. And actually Michelle and I and my step mom all got baptized together and I think it was just I was always studying. I went through the what does the Bible teach book with the girl I studied with. And then we progressed in to where we would just study like the Watchtower and Awake together and then we were or we read the way the awake together and then we would do studies from the theocratic ministry school book together and then we would do Tuesday night bible study we would study that book which at the time I think was the Daniel book you know so I was just really progressing really fast and I did all of my extra time that I had outside of all of my home chores that I had. I was hanging out with them I was going up a field service with them. I was really getting close to the entire family.

[00:32:55] Because the girl I studied with she had two other sisters and I really liked them too and I would hang out with them and I really liked her mom and we just had a lot of stuff together and yeah I got my step mom to go with me to do a lot of stuff and she was studying with some with an older lady at the hall to her and the lady she studied with became really close fast friends and the lady she studied with her husband was an elder.

[00:33:25] So we hung out with them a lot too and even though my step mom she was still in that mindset of like you’re not gonna bully me into doing things that I can’t physically do because I don’t have the time or the strength because I still work a full time job and I run a horse business because we boarded horses all also it wasn’t just our horses at one time we had 18 horses in our barn alone so it was a lot. And so like on a day to day basis if we weren’t going to the Kingdom Hall or I couldn’t convince my step mom to go out in service with me or take me out and surveyors or whatever.

[00:34:07] It was Dalys during the school year.

[00:34:10] Wake up go to school come home clean the house get something out prepared for dinner go down clean the poor stalls feed the horses bring the horses in and then come back out to the house cook dinner or at least check on it to make sure that like everything’s cooking just fine and then I would have time to study for the Kingdom Hall for whatever the next meeting was. And then after that we would eat dinner and then if I had like two seconds to myself I would sit down and watch tv with my step mom. We were sitting American Idol our bachelor or something and then I had to go to bed and then it was like if I had to do any homework I had to fit it within that time frame or I could do it on the bus on the way to school. So it wasn’t a student. I mean I graduated I do a3.0 GPA but it was mostly because it took like art.

[00:35:07] Office assistant or library assistant it wasn’t because I was like in all advanced English or something so I have to ask you so just what you’re talking about there is something that like that is something that that kind of resonates with me I’ve just been thinking about lately and that is that so I know myself as an adult I’m a little bit of a workaholic and I’ve just been kind of looking back at my past.

[00:35:40] You know growing up in an organisation where there is so much to do you had so much to do not only with all the study and then you know the meetings the service and then all these horse and just home chores and everything.

[00:35:58] I’m just curious do you think that that has impacted you as an adult. Do you think that it has had any impact on how busy you need to be or do you think or was it just something you did back then and you were kind of done with.

[00:36:13] No I really I. Because my dad he’s kind of a perfectionist when it would come to the house like a teaching home and he saw you sitting on a couch watching TV. He would literally point out seven things that you could be doing instead. You know. And so for me owning my own home. Now of course I’m not that anal retentive but I do when I’m stressed. And you can ask anybody that’s been in my home more than one time. I compulsively clean when I have stress in my. Also it’s not just it’s not just like oh I want to dust this it’s no I’m going to rearrange my entire house furniture you know underneath the couch in the bed. My husband he’s just like he does not get his late wears whatever he’s looking for. It was over here last week and it was over there that week. You know this is like a walk in the house and it’s like I live in a house every time he comes home now. Oh I think that’s definitely because of how much I had to clean and how well almost OCD my dad was about stuff because he’s he’s actually I think he has HIV and a lot of perfection blood type issues with that kind of like what you talked about in your own story to say that’s me you know Hamman have things a certain way in if other people don’t think that way well you should just think that way and this is how you should do you know. And I think I kind of in that way too now because he was that way not because I’m naturally that way. Right.

[00:37:53] Yeah. Oh just wondered if it made you have kind of a need to stay compulsively busy.

[00:37:59] I mean just an idea but I have changed all that in to a sedentary lifestyle. I am always busy but I’m knitting crochet a lot got this shy constantly using my hands like I’ve never just sit down and watch TV. If there is TV on. It’s not something I want to watch it’s something I can listen to. That’s why I love podcasts like listening to self-help and stuff like that. Or you know whatever because I just I’m constantly crocheting and knitting.

[00:38:31] So yeah I feel you there. I mean not crochet or knit but I’m always online and watching TV and then I’m online either responding to e-mails or learning about some business thing or just whatever.

[00:38:45] But I’m always busy and at least mentally if not physically. Yes. So I’m usually busy physically too.

[00:38:57] So how do things you know kind of play out as you were a teenager you know you’re baptized you know you obviously kind of were all there for a while with your friend here and everything. How did things kind of progressed. You know as you went on into young adulthood.

[00:39:17] Well the boy that I had mentioned the brother of the girl that I was studying with I fell madly in love with him and he was I guess that with me too for a while.

[00:39:34] And we even went to because we weren’t you know obviously allowed to go to prom or anything.

[00:39:40] Well Jehovah’s Witnesses and both of our schools had prom at the same time I went to his junior prom with him. And I mean we’re best friends. We never officially I guess dated because we were like 15 16 17 years old when we were going through this.

[00:39:59] But I mean he was like all eyes on him for three years.

[00:40:02] You know and my stepmom didn’t really like it. And my dad certainly didn’t really like it.

[00:40:16] So I got irritated because I’m like I’m truly innocent person like this isn’t like I’m not trying to do bad things with him like I just I just want to be in his company I just want to be friends with him I just want to whatever.

[00:40:32] Well then at one point I think I was like 17. He decided he doesn’t feel that way for me anymore. And that was devastating. And then it was kind of like oh now I can focus on other things because I’m not worried about him anymore. And I’m I was really active with a lot of my other friends of the kingdom heart and life really brief period. Like literally three weeks I dated like I officially dated an older boy in the Kingdom Hall and my dad did not like that and he made me end it with him. So I was like they just they had a way of making me feel dirty or making me feel like I was not being innocent with boys when I realized seriously was like I had never really kissed a boy or done really anything until I had kissed the first boy you know and it was super innocent and aside we were like making out all the time.

[00:41:34] So anyway that is it is always funny to me how how six crazy they are in the religion how. How every time two people of the opposite sex are seen together in pretty much any capacity. They assume something is going on. It’s it’s really funny that they claim that you know the world outside is sex mad but that’s all that is all there Malha. Yeah.

[00:42:10] And for me that wasn’t even something I wanted to necessarily do. I mean obviously your teenager your home. Know you think about it but it’s not something that I was like Oh I’d better be careful because I might lose my virginity to this person. It wasn’t about her. You know so I just I don’t know I became a really extroverted butterfly. Being a Jehovah’s Witness whereas before I was kind of very introverted and I liked myself a lot when I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I think that’s what I did and I think that’s what made me flourish as one for the short period of time that I really was dedicated to it.

[00:42:52] And things started to change when my dad made me break up with that with the boy that I dated that was in the kitchen Moha mostly my step mom Camilla convinced him you know he’s from an uneducated family. He was home.

[00:43:12] He doesn’t have asG.D. he is missing mom’s very pro college which I know Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t but because she went to nursing school and she was a nurse. She’s definitely pro. You need to go do something with yourself and you’re not going to settle for somebody who didn’t do that for themselves. Like which. I think that’s a good thing. Look I’m not saying that it was bad that they made me break up with him.

[00:43:36] But as a young teenager do the things that the excuses that they made I thought were really harsh you know but they’re like Oh he comes from an uneducated family and he had like we’re something wrong with his eyes and he had really thick glasses you know but he was like literally the coolest person I’ve ever met in my entire life. He was so fun. Super nice really funny. I don’t care that he had that glasses. I’m more of a beauty on the inside. Like seriously I don’t care what anybody looks like. I just love people for who they are. And I think that they didn’t they didn’t believe me in that or they just whatever they didn’t want me to be with him because they didn’t like him.

[00:44:18] And so anyone who is keeping up appearances that they wanted to keep.

[00:44:23] Yeah yeah for sure. And so that’s when I started to be like Well listen I go to school I get good grades.

[00:44:33] I go to the Kingdom Hall every meeting and I the ready for every meeting even though I’m only getting four hours of sleep at night because I’m one down with anxiety and I have insomnia. And I have to keep up those good grades in for my own standards. I have to study for every meeting and even though my step mom didn’t send it for every meeting or I would be like hey mom let’s study for the meeting that’s coming up. And she was like want to be there she’s like I’m just too tired I’ll do it later. You go ahead and do it you know. So I was always study and then when I was in high school during the time that I was baptized I actually used that as always an opportunity to write an English paper about something they had to do with being a Jehovah’s Witness or I sat out of English class because they were learning about Greek mythology and I would write a paper about being a dobs witness or you know it just whatever the situation was I tried to use it as an opportunity to study more and I had I remember what it was called but you’re not because you were in it longer than I was I left in 2008. But they had that disk where it had like every publication on it and a our library. Yes yes. OK so I had that. Yeah. That would put it in the computer and I would just research so much stuff. And like I always had questions about things but didn’t necessarily want to go to the Ellers for answers. I felt like I could find the answers on my own. And so I just was you know every spare moment that I had was on the computer researching stuff through that particular city round. So anyway.

[00:46:22] I didn’t really have questions about the religion itself.

[00:46:26] I didn’t really have I guess a problem with the religion itself. It was. It was the problem that I had with my parents was really the reason they eventually laughed and then growing into an adult and I see the you know hypocrisies in the things and how I’m treated and how things should be. And that’s what’s I guess turning me so like so sour against it now. But when I was leaving I was so depressed I get so depressed because nothing I did was good and like I said you’re in good grades in school. I was studying for the meetings I was going to meetings and I was going out and service. I was doing all the horse chores I was cleaning the house. I was making dinner. I was washing my brother. If I had a spare second a time where they would let me leave the house I would go hang out with my Jehovah’s Witness friends you know. And nothing was ever good enough. And it got to a point where for instance sorry I’m going on an aside tangent but this is like really important to my story. Because around Christmas time and my dad picked me up from high school and my brother we were sitting in a parking lot waiting for my brother and there was a Christmas song came on. Now mind you I know that it didn’t say anything about Christmas. You didn’t say anything about Jesus but it was a song that they played causes crime. I can’t even tell you which one it was I don’t remember a lot of snow man jingling bells or somebody doing something very neutral wrong you know. But to me and this is what I think my dad didn’t realize or didn’t care to realize. Was for me. I celebrated Christmas with my mom when I was little. And that’s a really sore spot for me. And it wasn’t that I necessarily missed Christmas but that time of year for me or with my mom and my grandma was extremely special for me.

[00:48:29] So anyway I said Dad will you please SHUT THAT SONG OFF we please change the station.

[00:48:35] He was so belligerent about the fact that I asked him to change that song because I was ridiculous you know like I was taking being a Jehovah’s Witness too far that I wouldn’t listen to that song and he wasn’t going to change it and he was like yelling at me in the car about how I was late being disrespectful to him because I want him to change song or something my dad was always like threatening to tell the elders on me about something and I’m thinking go ahead and I’ll tell them how much we knew smoke and all this other crap that you do that is now in obscurity can’t and don’t want to go confess my sins. So you know you did get baptized them.

[00:49:23] Oh he did.

[00:49:24] He did get baptized to my mom and him got a divorce like right before he married my step mom. He ended up getting back. Got you.

[00:49:31] And I think it was mostly because he was feeling the pressure from his family. Maybe I don’t know why he got baptized. He never really dissolved any information about his own story to me ever.

[00:49:44] Mean I don’t really talk. He doesn’t like me though. He says he was very abusive. So later that night got home he was drinking. Mind you I consider him an alcoholic.

[00:50:00] I know that’s a self diagnosed thing but hey if you have to drink every single day I’m sorry you’re an alcoholic and I just mean like have a glass of wine every night. No I mean like you’re drinking six plus beers every single night. You’re an alcoholic to me. So he was extremely verbally and mentally abusive. He would always take yes like you no matter what the situation was. You were the one at fault. It doesn’t matter what was said. The way that he acted towards him was what was wrong or what you know is. The problem and nothing was ever his fault. So anyway as he was drinking that night in of course that the fact that I like told him to do something really ticked him off. And so my son had already gone to bed and I just like take a shower and was like he was laying on me and I was sitting on the couch she was getting ready for bed and. I must have said something about a TV show that we were watching and he switched off on me and was screaming in my face and telling me that he’s going to tell the others how disrespectful I am and he’s the ME and the House and who do I think dying. And I don’t mean he’s like sitting in that chair in the living room with me. I mean he’s sitting on the coffee table in front of me three inches from my face with his big breaths bidding at me yelling at me telling me how much of a disrespectful little girl I am. And like I said he’s the head of the house. So anyway this went on for like 20 minutes of him just screaming at me. And at this point I get when I’m confronted like that I have learned not to talk back because it does not bode well for me in that house. And so we just air and kind of he would want me to look at him. You know look at me when I’m talking to you kind of thing. So I would look at him but because I was so dead inside about the whole thing. I have that deadpan look at my face and he would hate that so much like you just like your mother get that look after your face you know. And I’m like there’s a whole other story. And so finally after he pounded his fist on the table like three or four times a glass table. Broke it. My step mom comes downstairs and she says Phil what are you doing.

[00:52:44] Daughter.

[00:52:46] And that was the end of that.

[00:52:48] Then I just had to go to bed and I was like Oh OK. So it’s over. And nobody else was here to see any of that other than my stepmom was woken up by him screaming and told them to go to bed.

[00:53:01] And then also I mean that wasn’t the first time it happened but that we know that just shows it’s not because your step mom knew she could just come down and just be like it just snap out of it you know and it would be over it’s kind of sad that nobody that your step mom didn’t you know she obviously knew he was in the wrong and.

[00:53:29] But why didn’t you know if she truly cared she should have sat you down and you know had a real caring discussion with you about what just happened and try to help you.

[00:53:39] But know he would do that in my room when nobody else was there. And I would just really just have to wait for it to be over. Or it’s awful. Oh yeah. Or he would be drunk and the only time he could ever show me any affection was asked was one o’clock in the morning.

[00:54:01] He’d been drinking all night long. Come downstairs. And it’s so funny because my my bedroom was in the basement and we had a three floor and three story house and their bedroom was on the top floor. So I would be in the basement sleeping. He would come into my room he would sit on my bed with his leg drown. Beer Brad.

[00:54:22] Oh we love you.

[00:54:24] You know I love you and I’m proud of you and you don’t want to be kids and it’s all a. Nasty and oh I’m sorry. Alcohol is such a tough because my mom’s.

[00:54:39] My mom has issues with drinking too and something is very triggering for you.

[00:54:43] Oh it definitely is. Even when other people that are like I don’t know your story I don’t know what you about. But if you’re drunk just get on my face like a.

[00:54:53] I mean this sounds like that that was a defining part of your growing up. And honestly I don’t know. I’m not trying to I guess I am trying to play armchair psychologist here or something but I mean your dad has some has some problems besides the alcohol.

[00:55:18] Oh yeah. The narcissism. He it’s so bad.

[00:55:22] I don’t know if it’s you know like a narcissistic personality disorder or something but that’s that’s just so abusive and that’s the kind of stuff you know like you said you had gotten to the point where you were so dead inside you know that that’s the kind of stuff that breaks your spirit and that can break your spirit.

[00:55:42] And that is just so hard to to live around because you know like you’re walking on eggshells you never know when he’s going to snap and you don’t know when that next time is going to come where his three inches from your face you know spitting on you because he’s so angry.

[00:56:05] That’s just it’s all the you know the funny thing to with that is he would you know he was very much like you need to go to bed. Your bed time is your bed time. Call it fine though if he would catch me in the basement because the basement was very big it had his office my bedroom a bathroom the laundry room in a rock room and it was kind of like the cat show because it was a walkout basement to the barn. So we had. It was always very dirty because we had all the barn clothes. That’s where the dog kennels were. That’s like where you know I lived but anyway if he caught me in the middle of the night cleaning down there cause I got to a point where I was compulsively cleaning because I couldn’t sleep. He wouldn’t tell me what a bed he’d be like.

[00:56:59] You know after he’d been drinking you come down you know maybe want to have one of those conversations with me and he’d be like oh well you probably should go to bed but thanks for clean that or it only he really wouldn’t know what to say because he was like I mean Nana how had something of the mind you want to talk about well because I was cleaning.

[00:57:18] He was like okay with that. It was it was weird. And um so but that the that instance I had with him I think was definitely the turning point of me not wanting to live there with them anymore.

[00:57:36] I was 17 when it happened or 16 eternal almost 17.

[00:57:40] And so because the boy that I had you know was crazy about didn’t feel that way about me anymore. And I couldn’t date anybody else at the Kingdom Hall. It wasn’t like I was boy crazy but I felt like. If I hung out with a boy that would mean that he was my boyfriend because he would have to be a chaperone. And it’s like no I just get along with boys better. I have a more I guess tomboy thing about me am I was into sports and doing like playing games and video games and I was really nerdy and all.

[00:58:17] So I started to get super depressed because I felt like I didn’t fit in anywhere anymore.

[00:58:25] And a lot of the girls stopped. I think liking me at the Kingdom Hall because the boys liked me. I don’t want to sound super conceited because I don’t really know how many of them actually liked me.

[00:58:36] But you can definitely see their ones like me kind of thing. I can see that yeah.

[00:58:42] And so then it was like I was distancing myself from the girls the kingdom.

[00:58:47] And then Michelle my really good friend went to high school together she graduated a year before me.

[00:58:53] So I was in high school for a whole year myself and she started going to the Kingdom Hall that was closer to her and not my kingdom home. So she started making friends with the other kingdom how she was going to hang out with them. So we were seeing you know each other and I just felt really alone. I got to a point where I would just call the guy that I had dated for that short period of time and call him in the middle of the night and I would just talk to him for hours and hours on end. And he wasn’t weird he wasn’t like turning like be my boyfriend he was just a really good friend and he would just talk to me and he would confess because he wasn’t baptized he was an unbaptized publisher so he confessed to me that he was drinking and he was glad I called Kaz’s that he could like I’ll lay some of his stuff on me and that I lay some of my stuff on hand. We were like kind of hate on everybody with each other.

[00:59:47] And so I had gotten Solal with it at home that I see.

[00:59:59] Now mind you at this point I’m trying to actually be friendlier towards the people that I was friends with prior in school because I’m there by myself without Michelle. So if I had to survive one way or another at home you to my friend Rachael again and she was very accepting. And then there was a boy at school that was showing interest in me and I didn’t let anybody in. I would sit next to my two girlfriends that I had there. Ian Lee boys Widlake would never talk to me and try and flirt with me and stuff and I was like NUPE like there was a wall there. You were not breaking through. I don’t care how charming you are. Carol silly you are. Anakin Olaf you I’m not going say things I’m not supposed to. So but I’m getting close to my friends in school and I start like breaking down my my barriers towards other people at school and my home life was so terrible. I would sneak my stepmom’s painkillers in me being super naïve about how this man works.

[01:01:03] I thought I’d overdosed only for Motrin itself. And this is over like I take it for extra strict prescriptions strict Molterer and I mean TMI put my stomach pumped I hope that I just died before the ambulance gets here like I was ready to just like it all.

[01:01:21] I I really seriously wanted to just die because I was so lonely at home. Yeah yeah. There you go. Alex Yeah and I would like I would sneak through alcohol at night my parents alcohol just a little bit you know just to try and like help me go to sleep and nothing really worked and then I called my friend Ratel and I told her I did. And she’s like no you’re going to be fine. You didn’t overdose like you’re gonna be fine. She’s like but I really hate that you are in that situation. Like how did you get to that point.

[01:01:59] You know so I was really confiding in her. And then one boy that was friends with all of us walked her like group.

[01:02:08] He was really showing an interest in me and so like I would hang out with him at school and we talked and then I you know I liked him and he like asking me out so late. Okey Asher towards us boyfriend girlfriend at school kind of thing because obviously I can’t hang out with you outside of school. But then I got really ballsy and because my bedroom was in the basement it was a walkout basement. He convinced you to sneak out in the middle of the night walk down my driveway and go through the words to where this truck was and he was at his house and we would hang out at his house for a couple of hours and he’d make sure that I got back home before 4:00 o’clock in the mornings that nobody would know that I was gone. So I would do this for like a month a couple times a week. I would sneak out and go to his house and because things obviously progressively were getting worse at home and I was trying to keep up facade with them but knowing that no I don’t want to be a Jehovah’s Witness anymore. I don’t want this split like I want to be able to do what I want to do and not be judged for or at least begin to judge me for doing something and I am going to do something bad you know because I was such a goody two shoe that like I’m gonna give you a reason to move you’re gonna accuse me of it I’m going to leave do it. Exactly. So that’s when he was a big he was really into smoking weed and so I tried that with him and I’m thinking what does it matter. My parents do it so they can get mad at me for doing it you know because they do it so I was motivated with them in there and um it was it was right after my 18th birthday I decided I’d done I need to have a reason to not be a Jehovah’s Witness anymore because my parents aren’t going to let me not be one. It’s certainly my stepmom mum and so I had sex with this boy and I went home and said it was because things happened so fast like it’s hard for me to remember exactly the timeline of it but I know that I told my dad.

[01:04:23] And sat on that I snuck out and was with Chris and I had sex with him and then I didn’t want to be a Jehovah’s Witness anymore and that they would have to disfellowshipped me because I had premarital sex. And you can’t say I can’t be a Jehovah’s Witness anymore because I did this bad thing.

[01:04:39] And I said I’m not going to the kingdom anymore I’m not studying and that I’m doing nothing. And I think my dad at that point because he was so good at bullying me he didn’t know what to do. He was dong Ratho on a day when you stand up you know and he didn’t know what to say. I mean he was speechless other than he said that he was. He threatened to sue Chris with statutory rape and I was like yeah yeah can’t because I’m 18. He’s like oh was it a birthday present. I’m like what. That was the dumbest thing to say. Is it a birthday present. So anyway he doesn’t really know I guess what to say. And my step mom was like I’m gonna take you to that kingdom hall and dragged by her hair. If you know whether you want to go or not I will drag you. And I was like okay whatever. So I waited in the car.

[01:05:37] At the kingdom home I had a couple of people which was super weird a couple of people that like I barely knew.

[01:05:45] I mean they were nice people but they came up to the car and the one girl I had hung out with her a couple times as she was like begging me not to do whatever it is that I was about to do. She just knew something was going to happen and she just felt the need to come out and talk to me because she just didn’t want me to do what I was going to do an arm like she would like. Confess the story about how she had a blood transfusion when she was a kid and she just remember how bad it was and how she feels like there’s the soul of an old man living in her because of the blood transfusion she had in mind. She felt free hand. And I’m like What does that have to do with anything like you don’t even know what’s going on and you’re out here begging me to do not do something. So I’m shooting back inside. And then an added meaning was over. I’m with Eric inside and my step mom obviously had talked to the elders and told them what happened in Salt Lake. That was my official meeting was that night and I went in and I talked to them and they you know they asked me what happened. I told them exactly what had happened. And I said in I don’t want to be a jobs witness anymore. And then one elder which is the older of the wife that Ron had studied with. You know I was really close with him and his wife and I felt bad because I did really like them and he just looked like he was heartbroken. I think that I was leaving because he didn’t like me so much and but at that point like I said I was pretty dead inside. Everything that had to do with anything with all that and so that night I was disfellowshipped and later that week because it had gotten so bad at my house there I skipped school in the middle class. I convinced Rachel to skip class with me. Not that I really had to convince her. She was like yeah let’s hit you shitless go. We drove to my house and I packed up all my stuff in her bedroom in her car and I left and I never went home. I like is that emancipated myself at 18 and just high school.

[01:07:59] So let me ask you how how was that home after you were disfellowshipped.

[01:08:06] It just was they were you know home. Has that had on. It wasn’t really that. I don’t think I waited very long to really see.

[01:08:18] What would happen. After I left I was just ready. I just I didn’t want to see them anymore. And it went to be a part of anything anymore. I literally think it was maybe two days after I this fellowship that I just left.

[01:08:29] You

[01:08:30] were just done with all of it. I was so done with everything. I don’t blame you. Yeah.

[01:08:36] And that is a ballsy move at 18 you know to like you said you know pretty much emancipate yourself. Where did you go.

[01:08:45] Well

[01:08:46] I wanted to stay with Rachel but her parents did not like my parents. And you can’t blame them but they didn’t really want that kind of drama in their house. What I definitely didn’t blame them for. So Rachel’s like as much as you are my friend and I want to help you. You can’t stay here. I’m like look at us. It’s fine. But Chris the boy that I was dating he just lived at home with his dad and his dad worked nightshift and then like he went to schools that were sleeping. And as it was really all about. Me coming and staying like Chris kind of told the situation and his dad was like oh yeah that’s fine. So I dealt with Chris and I think that’s why my dad’s family thinks like I’m boy crazy. But it’s like there’s really the only Blaziken day.

[01:09:38] So get in where you fit in at that point.

[01:09:40] Exactly.

[01:09:42] So after that. Because obviously Tom is going to be on to this day. The thing I regret the most about that. Part about it was my little brother was 8 years old and had never gone home on the bus by himself.

[01:09:58] And like you know he’s eight years old but I guess at the time I thought he was so much more naive than he probably was. And you know like I said we grew up in a very rural area.

[01:10:10] So for him to like take the 35 minute bus ride home and not know where I’m at and I’m always there and then he has to like be home and then he’s home after school by himself at eight years old. Nobody’s there because everybody’s at work for hours on end you know like I felt really bad about that. That’s literally the only thing I felt bad about.

[01:10:33] Yeah. And that’s that’s that’s really sweet. But the reality is that he was your responsibility.

[01:10:42] Oh that means that he kind of was.

[01:10:45] Yeah yeah yeah I totally understand feeling like you abandoned him in that situation. Whether or not it was your responsibility or not. I’m sure you didn’t. Oh sure you it’s a shame you couldn’t have taken them with you.

[01:11:02] Yeah I know huge. Yeah. He and I do love my brother but him and I have never really meshed well. He he’s like a totally different person. He’s like an alien to me you like. We just don’t have anything in common.

[01:11:21] Oh yes.

[01:11:23] As you grow up and grow up differently.

[01:11:26] That’s where so you’re disfellowshipped you’re on your own now you you’re living with Chris and his family.

[01:11:39] Do you go ahead and complete high school and you do go to college or how’s life play out after that.

[01:11:47] So I had always wanted to be a beautician. And I think that that definitely like fell within the oh you could totally do that as a joke was witness because you have to go to school but it’s not for very long. So everybody was pretty supportive about me being a beautician and that’s what I thought I wanted to do. So I graduate high school. Nobody came. I was like Whatever that’s fine. My mom’s side of the family. I was like talking to more. And after I left I witan visited my grandmother and I called my mother and talked to her and told her what happened and she was so ecstatic that I wasn’t living there with my dad anymore and I had like broken free. From everything. So she came into town to visit me.

[01:12:37] She was living in Indianapolis at the time and so I graduated high school fine.

[01:12:46] And I wanted to go to be this school and this is where it gets like super weird because I’m really messed up. I’m doing a lot of drugs with Chris. I’m kind of like just living out this extremely rebellious and very irresponsible part of my life where I don’t know how to get a job I don’t know how you know the only job outside of doing chores for my parents or painting would in the summertime for my dad’s business was I. I was a when I was 14 15 14 or 15. My friend Michelle had gotten me a job at one of the resorts around there as a housekeeper for the summer cleaning. It was a you know as somebody who knows somebody can a job you know. So I had never gotten a job on my own I didn’t even know how to do anything like what I put on a resonating I’d never done anything. So it was really hard for me to get a job and really do anything to support myself. So Chris what kind of do my dad and step mom they can. I don’t know what it was that gave them kind of a change of heart. Maybe they were going through. I don’t know their own issues with things. After I had left. So we kind of started talking again. There was an instance I don’t really want to share and here because it’s extremely personal but it kind of threw my step back in my life. And so she would call me and see how I was doing. And so I told her you know I guess I want to be this school but I want to go to beauty school at this college. That’s an hour and a half away. And I can’t really afford the gas to go down there like I can’t get student loans to get me through the college. But like actually having the extra money because beauty school a 40 hour a week school is like a real job without getting paid. It’s like an internship. You know what you’re paying them. So to have a job outside of that is really hard when you don’t have reliable transportation or extra money to to drive all the way there. So she says well I want to help you with college. I still think you need to go to college. I still think you need to do something and I will help you with that. I’ll give you money. You know armed aside money to look happy with your Gasson you know through travels only be like 500 dollars a month to go toward that will be our contribution to you getting an education skills. Well that’s very sweet of you thank you. As leg but you do realize I’m not going to come back to the Kingdom Hall and she’s like Well you know that’s our only a stipulation. But as much as I want you to come back like I’ll still help you but you just need to think about it. Just pray about it. You know look whatever. And then my dad he’s like well what is Chris doing. Does he need a job. Because I need somebody. Who do you know who. Who needs to do this or that around the job. And you know like I could I could probably throw him some work if he needs some money to do whatever and sells yeah like I’ll ask him. And Chris was like yeah he wants to give me work I’ll do it. So he started working for my dad and then my dad had a conversation with me about well do you love him. You know you’ll never be accepted back or be able to come back to the Kingdom Hall or be a part of this family unless you’re married. You can’t just be living in sin so he’s like you really love him. I was like Well yeah I loved him. I didn’t really know whatever well think I love him and so I convincedF.K. convinced him to marry me and we got married.

[01:16:42] I was 19 and let it go well.

[01:16:49] Our marriage obviously fell apart within like six months. I was I divorced him when I was 20 but mostly because I had so many my own issues. But he did a lot of drugs at the time and I was like Yeah that was fine for a minute like I did that and my rebellious phase. But let’s let’s grow up here like I’m actually pretty responsible person. I can have my head on my shoulders and I want to kind of thing. And I was over it and he was not ready to be over that. And for me it was just kind of like I don’t really don’t want this these series of mistakes to be who I am in my real life kind of thing. So I left him and he was devastated because at that point I think that’s when he realized that he didn’t want to be with me even though we weren’t really the greatest couple. And I had gone to the Kingdom Hall a couple of times that we get married and just the looks that I got at that kingdom hall he had all houses like all this is not and no I can not do this. Especially the boy that I was in love with he was there and he was looking at me like Who are you.

[01:18:02] And I’m thinking to myself I don’t know. I don’t know what I’m doing. Is trying to please everyone you know.

[01:18:12] And I had made an offhand comment about my dad being an angel to one of his employees. It was supposed to be a joke. I said it in a joking way and I didn’t say it in a malicious way.

[01:18:29] Well they got back to him that I had said that and there must have been misconstrued the way I said it because after that Kristen how anymore work. Oh I’m not helping with college. You’re so disrespectful. You’re not even going to the Kingdom Hall you couldn’t even finish going to the meetings.

[01:18:44] You all in. So now stuck in of marriage. My parents have cut me off and the. You know Chris isn’t working anymore and I’m already in college. I’m making it to you know beauty school every day. And I found a girl that lived by me that I carpooled with and it just got so to the point where I didn’t have any money I couldn’t keep going to that school or had a drop out. And then you know I was like 4000 plus dollars in debt from taking out of school loans to get into a college that I didn’t even finish.

[01:19:21] And you know Christianize relationship was really rocky and falling apart. And so you know when I left him I just moved to Indianapolis my mom.

[01:19:34] And I stayed with her. But because all of her arised relationship was nonexistent for five years. And then all of a sudden we were thrown back together and she didn’t know how to. It was weird because like as a kid she wanted to be my friend not necessarily my mom. And then now that I’m an adult she want to be my mom and not my friend. You know so then she’s like trying to tell me how to live my life and I’m like girl I just left a place that was like this. You cannot tell me how to live my life now that I am 20 years old and yet I’m living with you. But Kaline like.

[01:20:14] So her nice relationship was very rocky for a really long time and I ended up.

[01:20:19] She helped me though get a job like she is really going to get me a job. She’s really good at making your résumé look good and she definitely helped me get in to that.

[01:20:30] I worked atJ.C. Penney here in Indianapolis and that’s actually where I met my current husband. He had him and I sold shoes together.

[01:20:38] So her.

[01:20:42] But yeah.

[01:20:46] That’s how that’s how that ended up.

[01:20:48] Well yeah that’s so. Have you ever have you ever talked to that.

[01:21:06] I think I know the answer to this is why I’m stumbling but have you ever talked to your witness out of your family anymore.

[01:21:14] My dad’s parents died and I was with my current husband. We were only together for maybe six months or so when I when my grandfather died and my gramma had already passed. And I was invited to the funeral at the Kingdom Hall. And I told Eric kind of my ethics my husband. I told him kind of like you know like about my past and everything and I said I want to go. I think this will be a good opportunity to try and you know mend things considering they reached out to me to tell me that grandpa died and I said but I’m going to warn you like this is going to be super awkward. I’m not going to stay with them we’re going to get a hotel room because I can’t stay with them. I can’t anything in it. We went we went up there got our hotel room and then we got a phone call like hey we’re having like all the families don’t get together here at the house. Please come. We would like for you guys to be here. And they said Okay so we go. And my dad. I mean he he loved his parents so much. He would do anything for them. He did a lot of things for them. And I think that’s why he felt like his kids should be that way towards him. I get it matter what our relationship was like you lived and breathed and died for your parents. That’s how he was with his parents.

[01:22:42] And you know so I went to their house he and my dad gave me a really big hug.

[01:22:50] He’s crying and everything like I’m really sad like I start crying you know. And then he takes his hand on the back of my head and yanks my head back by my hair and was like. I don’t even remember what it what he’s saying because I was so shocked that he did that. But basically he was like you need to straighten your life out and be a part of this family. Kind of thing. And I I I hit him on the chest and pushed him away and I was like See this is why or we don’t have a relationship. You are not allowed to touch me this way. You were not allowed to talk to me this way. This is why our relationship is so volatile and if you want a relationship with me we have to stop right here. Pretend not pretend that things didn’t happen but you did stuff. I did stuff. Let’s call it a day. Let’s start over. If you want a relationship with me you’re going to have to do that. And I think because of his parents death he was willing to accept that I guess. And so from then on we were we were pretty much okay. I mean once in a while we would have a text message between each other where we were like disagree on things and he would try and bully me into thinking a certain way or you know Hill me would make comments about how I was a dumb kid and I did this and that I made these mistakes. Don’t you wish you didn’t do that. And you know you realize when you’re older that your parents were right and.

[01:24:23] You know he would say things like that it’s like a very insecure person who constantly needs validation that he’s the big man on campus.

[01:24:34] Yes. Yes.

[01:24:35] And he I think because I wasn’t there he kind of transferred that aggression towards my brother. And so when I would visit them. And he would get upset about something my brother did something that made him mad like I had told you in our conversation before that I would like stand in the doorway you know like you’re I to be that somebody that sticks up for my little brother.

[01:25:00] We may not get along. We may not be close but I’m not gonna let you bully somebody on my watch like I’m not scared of you anymore. I proved that I could leave and I could not rely on you and I could stand up to you and he wouldn’t do it. Thing about it. So you know I tried to I would try and be there for him.

[01:25:20] Well then Eric and a few years later fastforward I got pregnant.

[01:25:28] We weren’t married. I was scared to get married again because of the stigma that not only my mom had for being married a few times. No religion to be like your mom. Well no I got married because I was pressured into it. My first marriage and it was a joke. So this next time I’m get married unless I know that this is for real and I want to be with this person and share life with them. So we get pregnant and we had our first kid in 2014 and late 2014. So in the summer of 2014 they were having the international convention.

[01:26:09] And I was like you know the smurf lives right.

[01:26:14] Yeah I think it was in Indianapolis lesbian never went through. And I was visiting my parents from Michigan so I was up in northern Michigan visiting them. And. At that point from the years that I had left to that point my parents lost their house was their business the farm the barn business and everybody else had to find somewhere to take their horses. My step mom had to get rid of a lot of her horses and board somewhere else. So my dad had bought a piece of property in a different part of town and he was going to build his own. You know the next house that they had they were going to build their own house with cash no mortgage so that if he was out of work like he had then that nobody could take your house away from them. So in the meantime key they stripped that property that they lived at before because my dad literally built everything on their property. So he’s like the bank owns the house but they don’t own this barn and they don’t know my shop and they don’t own the fence and they also he likes strip that place and took all the materials to this new place and built himself a pool barn. So they’re living out of this poll barn and I’m visiting them. I’m really pregnant. An elder from the congregation that my family originally went to when I was a little kid. So he’s a family friend. I’ve known him my entire life. I’m pregnant and I answer the door and he says Oh hi Sydney and I was like hi Gary. And he said well how are you doing. You know I was he’s an older so you can technically talk to me and I’m like I’m a girl and I’m pregnant with my first kid. We’re ever we’re just kind of being friendly. And I think mostly because we were fairly friends like I’ve known him my whole life. It wasn’t as like oh you’re a disfellowshipped person. I need to keep the strictly business right. So he’s like well I was here to talk to your dad but since you’re here how about I just let you know all about this little you know I’m just going to give him this pamphlet about the international convention you know and I’m just sitting there like Aha.

[01:28:35] Aha.

[01:28:37] And he said something to me that really started me down the path of this religion isB.S.

[01:28:48] Not only do I not want to be a part of it because my own personal reasons but this is obscene. He decided to make a comment about how we really go did this. I think you like it. I think it would help you come back to Jehovah because you’re having a little one now.

[01:29:05] You don’t want them to not make it was like Are you or effing kidding me.

[01:29:13] You will move in a room.

[01:29:16] And you’re going to tell me that because of my spirituality that God’s just going to destroy my kid and does not even give him a chance because of my spirituality. Well you know that this is my step mom. She she was like in the shower shoe throwing something where she couldn’t come to the door. Gary laughed. I was nice to him but I relayed the message to Penny. No sir. Mom and I said that’s not okay with me. Is that okay with you that you believe that that this religion believes that can you believe that she goes. Well.

[01:29:55] Oh I get Yeah. I mean I know that that’s like what they believe but they shouldn’t really know what to say. And I was like You’re seriously going to stand there and look at me and tell me that God is going to destroy my child and he’s not going to live because of a mistake I made.

[01:30:15] And she’s like Well it does say that the children pay for the sins of the father. I said yeah in the old testament but the new testament says that Jesus died for all of us. So that’s Nolan Boyd. She’s like well you. I’m going to get that she’s like I don’t really know. You know is really know what to say when you when you make a logical when you say something that is so logical and she knows that they don’t believe that or that they believe another way. She’s just like whatever.

[01:30:46] Like maybe I don’t really agree with that but she knows it looks really bad. What they actually believe looks pretty horrific but they know how it looks to the outside world so they have no problem mincing words to try to give off the optics that they want to give Ray.

[01:31:05] Well in my dad he was when he found out that I was pregnant he was real mad. I think mostly I mean I wasn’t married Eden he really really likes my husband or like my husband now. So I don’t think he was mad that I was pregnant with her when I was pregnant with. I think he was just mad that I was having a kid and I wasn’t married and my dad at the time I’m just he just never feels like I am a sufficient human being or something. So even though he loves his grandkids he hasn’t met the new one. And I mean he’s like crazy though about my older son and my daughter. So but every time I’ve gotten pregnant he just has it in mind you he doesn’t go to the Kingdom Hall and he’ll say I can’t believe you’re bringing another soul into this treacherous world. Ahmed is right around the corner and how could you be so cruel as to getting pregnant again and bring another beautiful soul into this.

[01:32:11] Also does. Oh I just it’s just such a cheerful outlook. No kidding.

[01:32:18] I mean it’s the way they see the world though.

[01:32:20] You know they think that it’s almost irresponsible to bring children into this world because it’s just going to be destroyed. And Usher kids watch your kids reach that age of accountability then even even if you were a witness that you can’t help them there and you have to stand on their own so you’re pretty pretty tough way of things. Everything from the daily life to you know any future prospects including your kids. And I’m sorry that you that guilt trip on you there at the door about your unborn child.

[01:33:00] Oh I was so mad that my step mom she knew better than the like trying to find. I mean she was just like yeah I know I don’t really know what to say about that because you’re not going to tell a pregnant woman that you agree with that man that 12 hour drive.

[01:33:19] So.

[01:33:20] So you have you clearly left those personal reasons and left the religion and like you said when that Elder is standing at the door and who’s trying to use this opportunity to shame you into going to coming back for the cult. What is it though like you know from there how did you start waking up you know mentally. Did you start looking into the religion more or what did you start doing that has kind of helped you from there.

[01:33:59] Well it makes me my parents you know like has shown in my story.

[01:34:07] They kind of did it. They were foot floppy as far as the shunning thing. You know they would shoot me if they felt like it was justified. But then their conscience would be getting in the way and wanting to reach out.

[01:34:21] Because like I said they really like my husband now they have grandkids and it’s kind of like oh well I can overlook certain things or I can not shun her as long as she is good enough. You know just so I can see my grandkids and things like that. And in it we went back and forth because if I posted a picture of us like dressed up for Halloween old then I’m not you know they’re not going attack me for a year and then you know then they’re going to talk to me or talk to me again because when I voice my opinions or my IM logical thinking you know they don’t really know what to say. I mean my step mom will agree with me on a lot of things that I have issues with. But at the end of the day she still thinks it’s the truth. She still thinks that I need to come back and you know now I have put a Kabah issue to the back and forth and I am I’m making them shun me because they want to for their religion. They don’t want to because of their humanity. But I’m not allowing them to go back and forth on it anymore. I walked them from contacting me and as hard as it is as sad as it is I think it’s better for me to not have that turmoil and I’m not going to put my kids in. That’s when I really wanted to get in too. Now why is this so bad. I know why it’s bad because of what I think but why is this so bad. And that’s when I started to really listen to shows like your show or Lady see and her husband that does their show the critical thinking show and you know just a lot of stuff I didn’t even know was going on like the two witness rule. And I mean there’s so much that I was like wow my story is like nothing in comparison to some of these people and what they’ve gone through in like I knew it wasn’t the truth. I knew it wasn’t a good religion. I felt as though it was a cult. I just never knew. I just never had the proof. You know and it really constituted as a cult until I researched it and I’m like oh yeah that’s exactly what it is. That’s this all of this is. Yeah.

[01:36:48] So when you grow up with that you know you don’t really have clear vision as to what it is. It’s interesting for me actually on a few of these interviews and then just on forums and things.

[01:37:02] It’s always fascinating for me to hear what the loved one of someone who is a witness says when they go to the meetings for the first time and so many times though apparently come out of a Keenum Hall and be like that’s messed up you know and you know for us that was just normal because it’s all we knew but apparently you know for people who have any amount of perspective on the outside who who go they can pretty quickly see what’s going on and so yeah it’s very tough and it takes somebody to kind of to kind of open your eyes or show you that when you’re finally starting to wake up because it’s really hard to get enough distance from it to see it for what it is anymore.

[01:37:57] Mary is there anything that you’d like people to know about the religion that you know is there anything you’ve learned about it in particular that you think people should know on the who have never been a witness before.

[01:38:16] Yeah they’re nice when they come to the door and I was nice to but I was naive you know and a lot of these people are just sheep and you know people say how bad this religion is and then they say Oh yeah but these people are so nice we yes they are nice and they’re probably very decent people but they don’t know what they’re doing.

[01:38:39] I mean they think they do but in their well-meaning people and so like don’t be super rude to them but at the same time just don’t even bother with hurt just just don’t.

[01:38:51] Yeah. It’s not though it’s the people that are horrible necessarily it’s the culture that they’re involved in this thing that’s bigger than them is.

[01:39:01] What about also know your group. Well to I just I get so.

[01:39:08] Frustrated with people who are not Jehovah’s Witnesses but they love people who are in so you say Okay but what about this and this and they get so brainwashed into thinking that if anybody says anything bad about that religion who then it’s that’s their problem. It’s not true. People are just making up lies. People who aren’t even Joves witnesses will say that and it bothers me because it’s like there’s always two sides to a story and the fact that you’re dismissing this other person’s story just because it shows a bad light on something that you don’t think is that bad is wrong and you need to listen to other people’s story because just because somebody on Yelp says that a restaurant is terrible doesn’t mean it is just as delicious doesn’t mean it is wrong and you are right.

[01:40:04] There’s no valid your religion is so personal. That’s it. It is a person’s individual faith their individual hope for salvation there. It helps them overcome their individual fears of death mortality the world around them it gives them some sense of control. When you start threatening that people tend to lash out personally because because it hurts. It’s something that emotionally fills something in them that they need to and you know to each his own whatever anyone wants to believe. That’s fine. The only problem is when you start hurting other people and you know unfortunately Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t have the greatest track record. As far as not hurting people or allowing some of the most vulnerable among them to be hurt. And it’s very sad. Does your. Do you think that your past still impacts you. You know just as a person.

[01:41:16] Oh for sure. I still have a really cause I’m lucky now. My husband works two jobs and he allows me to be a stay at home mom to our three children. I have a hard time being out in the real world and working. Like when I was selling shoes where I met him you know I came from being a total extrovert super butterfly in the Kingdom Hall to clamming back up and then when I had to get a real job here in Indianapolis it was like I didn’t know what to do and how to talk to people anymore. I didn’t know how to relate to the culture down here compared to the really sheltered really small predominantly white culture of northern Michigan like I had one black friend and he was half Irish and he was also is also gay and was the only black kid in our school. So I mean he was an anomaly in itself. It wasn’t like he was like other you know African-American people I’ve met.

[01:42:23] So which is funny to this day of him and I are actually still pretty good friends and we would have a lot of like religious discussions because before he came out as gay he his dad he was this you you went to a regular Christian church. But we would have a lot of meaningful conversations about church and things like that. And now he’s like I’m gay and I’m atheist.

[01:42:45] And if you don’t like it whatever and I’m like I’m not anything and if you don’t like it whatever. So I’m over that now to help him.

[01:42:57] Yeah yeah but it is it is it is hard to to come out of the religion and then try to try to live life from the normal world to some degree and you know find out where you fit in.

[01:43:13] Well in that feeling like you really have that.

[01:43:17] I think that’s the biggest thing is like you know we are Jehovah’s Witness you have this destination that you’re going to get to eventually and so you dislike live day by day as it. Whereas when you’re free of that you’re like you don’t even know where to begin. The possibilities of what you can do with your life or where you could go and you see a lot of times I feel like I have the want to do things but I don’t have the courage to take that leap to get out of my comfort zone that I have established now as a stay at home. You know or I don’t think was going to go back to college should do something. What on earth would that be like. I ended up going back to school and I actually have a beauty license I graduated from beauty school here in Indianapolis.

[01:44:04] But that was super hard for me also.

[01:44:08] So I’m like artist don’t even want to go down that road. My kids are in school my in get a job I’m just going to be one of those moms are just told all the kids everywhere they want to go and be at all of sports and do all the things I don’t even know what I want for myself. Right now I’m kind of living vicariously through my children even mothered you know 3 2 and 6 months so sofa role you know that.

[01:44:30] That is a great point though you know freedom while a great quality. It’s not. It always comes with certain prices and one of those is responsibility you know you’re responsible for your own life. Now you know you can’t just handed over to a Colts and say here you know you tell me what to do and you tell me when to do it and I’ll do it and then life will be OK. It’s it’s it’s scarier because now you know we have to make our own decisions we have to decide you know does this fit for me or does this not end. Because you and I and a lot of people listening have never had that opportunity really especially from our formative years it’s very difficult to suddenly be kind out there and be like well what do I want to do.

[01:45:25] I don’t know. I’ve never I’ve never been able to do what I wanted to do. So it’s really it’s not easy to quite figure out you know because we’ve done what other people wanted us to do for so long.

[01:45:37] Well and for me too as far as life skills went I think clean a house like nobody’s business.

[01:45:43] And I can say I want to move down toward a job.

[01:45:50] You’re not very far away from where I live. So I told her let me just go down there and do the interview he’s like leave me with three kids for that long.

[01:46:03] Yeah.

[01:46:03] We thought we’d end up hiring you anyway.

[01:46:06] Put it away too because I told I told my husband I’m so like quirky sometimes I have this obsession with watching on YouTube professional cleaning videos. Oh really.

[01:46:20] Oh yes. To watch professional carpet cleaning people go into these places like restaurants and the carpets nasty you like bring it back to life and I tell him I’m like I want to that’s so bad. Like something about that is so satisfying and he’s just like you are so weird.

[01:46:41] Well then I guess I’m weird so I don’t sit around watching the videos but I do yeah.

[01:46:49] You know there’s something satisfying taking something and making it shine again or you know restoring it in some way through the cleaning process.

[01:47:00] That’s funny. Maybe who knows maybe maybe in the future. That is something that you could pursue if you enjoy it. You know I mean there’s certainly nothing wrong with doing that.

[01:47:13] I told them I was like huggy never any women in these videos. I want to be the first woman in these videos professionally cleaning these carpets with these guys.

[01:47:23] So there really are.

[01:47:24] That’s interesting to me. I guess if I think about it yeah any time I’ve ever been around a carpet cleaner in apartments or houses or anything it’s always a man.

[01:47:36] Yeah that’s what you’re claiming.

[01:47:40] You know being a maid is predominantly like a woman’s.

[01:47:43] Oh yeah.

[01:47:44] Because I’m the first fashion show I’ve ever had and I clean houses and you know there’s I’ve run into issues in the past where women didn’t want me to clean in their house because they didn’t think I could clean because I was a man. So you know it’s funny. There’s all kinds of prejudgments about those types of things. Yeah. Yeah. There you go start your carpet cleaning business that would be awesome.

[01:48:14] Let’s find ideas that I can work for. So yeah well what are some things.

[01:48:25] Well let me ask you this I mean I guess you do have right now some distance between you and your family.

[01:48:35] And I don’t know if this has been an issue for you or not. Can’t matter if we’ve talked about it before.

[01:48:40] But sometimes it’s difficult when when X witnesses have kids sometimes they’re witness relatives will want to have something to do with them. But it’s really just to kind of get at the kids to try to teach because they want to save the kids they want to teach them you know the truth. And so at least with this distance you don’t have to worry about that right now but you know is there anything. If you had something you could say to your family if if they hear this and they were to to you know want to shut you off again. It sounds like they kind of do anyway. Is there anything you would want to say to them.

[01:49:33] Mostly that it breaks my heart that it’s my kids won’t see the good side of them that I know that they have that I’ve been able to experience occasionally with them. They’re better at sharing their. With everybody else but me.

[01:49:55] But I know it’s there and I know they’re genuine. I know that they love my kids and I’m very sad that they.

[01:50:06] They’re not going to have that with my kids because a lot of who I am. I think the the good qualities that I have come from my dad. I think that the good qualities he has. I I definitely got some of those and for them to not know who they are as a part of me makes me really sad but at the same time I’m firm on my children not being a part of that.

[01:50:41] I don’t want them to hurt the way I did. I don’t want them to not know what real love is. I don’t want their love for my children to be an additional home. I don’t think that that’s fair on a child especially a child. As an adult it’s whatever. You know people come and go in your life even your family. But as a child I don’t want them to know what that feels like. Maybe that’s sheltering and maybe that’s because of my own upbringing. I’m going to you know go maybe to extreme on that or people might think that that’s a little bit extreme but I I I very much feel that I don’t want my children to go through that. You know my husband didn’t go through that. And he’s a perfectly fine person. You know everything. He knows what we know what it’s like to have love and you know a lot of times they don’t think he understands or he he just really doesn’t know how to relate to me and a lot of things or how I feel but his family’s never done that to him so he is just okay with us not not being close with them because he doesn’t want our children to have to deal with that. So if anything I just want to tell them you know they may look at it like this is my fault but it’s not because I gave them the opportunity to be in their life.

[01:52:08] I just asked them to not pressure me in to anything and to not talk to me about that. No religion anymore.

[01:52:19] And me it doesn’t matter what I have said to other people what they have seen or heard me say to other people or on Facebook or whatever. You know if you wanted to be part of your grand kids life you could of. And you can’t put that we can’t put all of that on me.

[01:52:37] So that’s that’s one of the it’s always one of the saddest things to me is when not only do they shun the ex witness but they shun their kids or they’ll jerk their kids in and out you know that they’ll be there for the kids for a while and then suddenly they’re shining again or whatever. It’s just you would think that if you had a religion and you claimed Jesus to be your Christ to be your exemplar a man who never shunned anyone a man who ate with the tax collectors and the centres a man that drew little kids to hell because he was so sincere. You would think that if you wanted to create something attractive to other people to try to draw them to a religion that you would do so with love and that you would do so with positivity and not fear and shame and guilt and shunning and all this stuff. And it’s it’s so sad that kids get caught in the crossfire of something. You know what did they do they didn’t do anything. And ultimately in the end it’s your parents that are deciding to treat you a certain way. It’s their fault. Jehovah’s Witnesses like to they are so masterful victim shaming or victim blaming they’re so masterful at saying Well you didn’t follow this prescribed course that I set up for you unfairly so therefore because you decided to be you and not be a copy of me and you decided to go your own way. Well therefore you’re a bad person and you have destroyed the family. No because it was an unfair and unrealistic expectation from day one that you conform to something that was their choice and their decision. They got to make that choice. Why don’t you. And it’s it’s just such an unfair thing to put upon people.

[01:55:00] And they like it they like to put that on me though that it was my choice because I got baptized.

[01:55:05] And it’s you know what’s funny is I’m going to speak to your parents or step mom and dad right now. They didn’t get baptized as kids.

[01:55:19] Yeah I don’t really know. No it’s like yeah they don’t know they they were able for whatever reason to skirt that.

[01:55:27] But as kids there’s tremendous pressure to get baptized. And if nothing else I don’t care. What it is. How many things do you hold. So how old were you when you got baptized. Let me ask you.

[01:55:46] I was 16.

[01:55:47] Sixty. How many things do you hold a 16 year old to for the rest of their life.

[01:55:53] How many of the decisions that a person that is 16 years old they make are therefore reflective of an honest decision not undue influence where a person is only ever had really one choice but an honest and true decision to make for the rest of their lives you’re 16 you’re just learning how to drive you can’t get married you can’t drink alcohol.

[01:56:21] Jesus didn’t get baptized till he was 30 and he was the perfect son of God if you believe in the Bible so you know I’ve never understood how they can hold kids to decisions for the rest of their life.

[01:56:35] And do so so callously you know with just this cavalier attitude of well you made the decision you were you were 16. Come on. Like it’s it’s so it’s so unfair it was one thing that I remember in my own story with my brother who is shunned I remember asking my mom one time like how or why are we supposed to shun him for something he did when he was like 13 14 years old whatever it was like it never made sense to me that you could.

[01:57:13] That this kid who grew up with kind of only knowing one way or in a family where there was a lot of pressure or in every kingdom hall there’s pressure put on the children to conform to to their peer pressure to keep up with their friends. If you’re not baptized by a certain age people look down on you and talk about you and the Keenum all holidays they keep their kids away from you.

[01:57:39] How that was the main reason why I felt the pressure was the other younger kids in the hall.

[01:57:45] Yeah yeah. You see them doing it and you gotta keep up and if you don’t you know there’s gonna be consequences. So they’ll even tell you from the platform that you know they’ll talk about the age of accountability and how you know once basically you can think and reason for yourself if you don’t get baptized then God Jehovah is going to hold you responsible anyway so you might as well where I saw him like oh well so-and-so is only an unbaptized publisher just after his publisher you know to be a part of a higher class or something like he’s almost humor like you have yeah.

[01:58:31] Like once you get baptized now you’re a real person and you know I just don’t I don’t understand. I mean I do understand I can intellectualize it but emotionally it’s very hard for me to understand how you can have a baby. You’re it’s one of the most exciting moments in a person’s life I can look back at pictures of my own mom and dad you know holding me as a baby and they were so excited that they got a little baby book and they you know stamp your feet and they put it in the baby book or your fingerprint or whatever.

[01:59:08] All these things and then and then you know you’re excited for that baby’s first steps and you’re excited for all the moments that you’re going to have with that child and then because that child does not take one path that you tried to set them mine you throw them away like garbage.

[01:59:33] It’s me as a parent now I cannot fathom that really I don’t think there’s anything any of my children could do. Later on that would justify in my mind me treating them the way I’ve been treated.

[01:59:52] There’s there’s no there’s nothing.

[01:59:55] It’s just unfathomable. It really is. I really is. I think I mentioned it on on my I’ve mentioned it before somewhere in a podcast but I remember there was this. So hopefully I’m not boring people but there’s a scripture in proverbs. I think it is that that in Jehovah’s Witnesses the New World Translation The Scriptures essentially says to train up a boy in the way in which he should walk and he will not turn aside from it. Yes. And it sounds like here is the way in which you should walk. I’m going to train you to go down this prescribed path and you know you’re going to do that. But in other versions another translation’s it says to train up a boy in the way in which he is bent and he will travel that path. But the difference is it’s in the way in which he is a bit find out who that child is when you have a child you know you’re curious as to who that child is going to be what will they become what will their personality be like. It’s not oh look here’s a little mini me a little robot a little automaton let me program him and he will do this one thing and then if he doesn’t well then you know forget him. You know it’s just it’s just does.

[02:01:13] It’s so inhuman and it really wish that we’re true then everybody in everybody’s family would all be the exact same right. But they’re not. So they’re obviously born with their own personality as much as you try and makes. A person be who you want them to be.

[02:01:33] Or treating a child in to doing one specific thing while it’s up to them whether they’re going to do it or not and yeah whatever happened to the free will that Jehovah’s witnesses talk about Jehovah giving us it gave us free will and he lets us exercise it then who are you to come between me and Jehovah and my free will to decide whether or not good enough to to even say hi to in a store you know.

[02:02:07] Oh yeah.

[02:02:08] Oh my gosh to this I was I wasn’t there mentioned this earlier but I had one of the lessons I had gone to visit my parents.

[02:02:17] There was a man in his daughter whom I shared a hotel room with because my step mom couldn’t go with me to an assembly in southern Michigan so I went with them like just their family and share a room with them. And I’ve known them since birth.

[02:02:37] Like my real mother was friends with this man’s wife and he saw me walking up the path to my parents house and he was walking out of my parents house in him and his daughter who was like 12 literally look the other way the whole time I walked past them and then looked back like he put his hand up to make shade his face thinking I know you know me my whole life.

[02:03:07] You and I shared a hotel room together with your family and you’re going to play pretend like you’re looking at me is going to burn your face.

[02:03:17] How is this all a me. And I told my stepmom when I walked into the house. Can you believe that he did that to me and she’s like Well I think that these things are not supposed to end. You know she’s like What. Why that also is why I’m going to tell your dad and he’s going to say something to him.

[02:03:35] No. What is he conceded that guy Edwards couldn’t change anything. I don’t care. I’m just irritated that he had to go so far.

[02:03:43] As to block his face literally throwing a shoe that he literally threw shirt at you. Yes.

[02:03:53] So childish. You know it’s just it’s sad what the religion seems to devolve humans in to these petulant children who throw fits. Is this really sad.

[02:04:08] Well when I when I was thinking the whole time to is what did I do to you. No I did nothing to you. I am still that same person that you knew.

[02:04:20] For either what I did to leave what I did to be this fellowship had nothing to do with anybody else other than I made that decision.

[02:04:33] And yeah maybe I was disfellowshipped but how does that really affect you personally for you to think you can treat it that way.

[02:04:41] Well I mean that’s one of the things that that makes it Koltai you know. Yes you know.

[02:04:48] Well so let’s let’s in this on a more positive note.

[02:04:54] Yes. You’ve got this new life you’re free you’ve got three kids right. Yes yes. And they are adorable. I’ve seen them on Facebook. So you know what do you enjoy about this new life that you’ve got so far in India what are your dreams for the future what are you what are your hopes.

[02:05:20] My favorite thing I think about being in this new life not have I mean of course I say I’m affected by it otherwise I would be on your show you know. But in I just feel like I’m so happy that my kids don’t have to deal with that own. I will take on anything to prevent them from going through something and then to see them be as happy as they are like with my husband’s family or my mother or people in my mother’s family. And I’m creating bonds with those people and just in the back of my mind I feel like even if I’m not super close to that person or I’m not best friends with you know my husband’s sister or something.

[02:06:14] My kids get to build relations excuse me relationship with these people and their relationships not mine.

[02:06:23] I have no say over it. I have no idea. You can’t see that person anymore because you worry. You know we don’t like them anymore because you know they get to choose whom they love who they have a relationship with and build off of that. And just more people who love my kids and want to be in their lives. That really brings a lot of joy to me. Even just having relationships with my own kids because I don’t see them as little mini me or little mini Eric Seasonale they. Either my 6 month old has his own personality and just seeing them grow. It’s weird because I never wanted kids. I love me like that was like the first thing on my To Do list her was to have kids and then when I had I was just like oh my gosh in the womb my husband didn’t want to have more than two. I was a little upset. We ended up having three and I was like OK we can like that’s enough. We can’t necessarily afford to just keep having kids. You help sell an out. I love him. You know he Kim and I are so different now. We have a lot of things in common. We live very kind of separate lives like I said because I’m a stay at home mom and he is in the army. And then he’s also has a civilian job.

[02:07:56] He works a lot. And I’m so grateful for that. But I think that because we live very separate. When we come together it’s really good. We have a really good time. We share a lot of family time.

[02:08:11] And he actually might go on a nine month deployment next year to Kuwait. And.

[02:08:19] You know he came home and he’s like oh I didn’t want to make a decision without talking to you first. I mean I think a lot of times he doesn’t realize how like in-sync we are because he’s like well I just want to be sure like that if I did that you wouldn’t be mad at me. And I told him I said you signed up for the Army if they ask you to do that. You go do it because that’s what you signed up for. Like I’m supposed to support you 100 percent in whatever you do. And he’s like okay good cause like eyes like what an offer to do for sure. But I just want to make sure that we were okay. You know I never really had a relationship like that with another person so. I guess I just am loving our marriage and having our kids and we live very simple. You know we have a small house and I’m okay with that. You know I think being a Jehovah’s Witness they teach you to live very simple. And I kind of I I did like that about them you know to not be very materialistic. And we do live very simply. But I think we find a lot more joy in things not having to. I don’t know. We just we do.

[02:09:34] Don’t worry about a lot of other things that I feel like people with a lot of money can end up worrying about I guess it never leaves us trade. There are so many tradeoffs and low yes.

[02:09:50] And that’s as Atholl you know what. What you enjoy. It sounds like sounds like you’ve got really you’ve kind of got everything you want. You know you’re happy and I think that.

[02:10:03] You know in talking to my sister mom and dad they always say I hope you’re happy and I’m like Well I think you you know like I know you thought that it wouldn’t be possible or something or maybe I didn’t deserve to be happy but. So.

[02:10:21] Thanks. Now I think a lot of times a lot of times some of those comments honestly are reflective of their own unhappiness. Because it’s not it’s not. I don’t know. I can’t speak for all of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I can just say that I in enough congregations and pretty much everybody was depressed and unhappy. Though they claim to be differently. When you really get down to talking to them or you know someone many of them had to be medicated for depression and different things not you know there’s nothing wrong with that. But when you claim to be the happiest people on earth. And everyone is kind of deeply unhappy at their core and searching for this using this religion as an escape. It’s just it’s not happy or healthy and you know here you are you leave you actually find happiness and you know what you thought you should have always had inside the organization is what you know by and large most of all the people that I’ve been talking to they find on the outside of whatever that organization was. It’s it’s sad to say that you know bad things.

[02:11:43] Don’t happen to people on the outside. There’s been a lot of things that have been like Roadmaster that I have gone through with. You know worldly people on the outside it in scary situations but. You know it can happen to anybody and it goes both ways.

[02:12:06] Right. That’s right.

[02:12:09] Yeah there’s good and bad on both sides. You know people are just people ultimately. But it’s a lot. I think it’s a lot easier to find happiness in freedom though there is more responsibility with it than there is in captivity.

[02:12:28] Yes for sure.

[02:12:30] Portière Well is there anything that you wanted to say that I didn’t get a chance to ask you you know or we skipped over.

[02:12:44] Well not really I would like to put a shout out there to a couple of people.

[02:12:52] You know the girl Michel that I talked about she was disfellowshipped a couple years after me and her and I reconnected and are friends again were real you know. Oh yeah she is really cool person she is. I keep telling her she needs to listen to your show.

[02:13:09] I think it’s really triggering for her though because like I said like all a lot of her family is still and even her brother in law had become an elder and at a public event told her she needed to leave because she was making everyone uncomfortable in a public event. It was like a festival like out outdoor that’s the vote for the town and he told her she needed to leave because he she was making everyone uncomfortable.

[02:13:40] I’m like girl you’ve got to find an outlet.

[02:13:44] They think she struggles with stuff sometimes two things in front of a big thing for a lot of us is taking your power back.

[02:13:53] Yes. You know what.

[02:13:56] But look you know shout out to Michelle for getting out here being free.

[02:14:03] There’s that there’s a couple of young people that were in the Kingdom Hall that have had later found out have left them not necessarily good friends with them after the fact because we didn’t really have a lot in common in it other than we were in it in the same age type thing but it kind of gives me hope for them. You know because when you’re in it for a long time when you’re an adult and you leave it sucks cause you feel like oh I wasted a lot of my life. But at the same time what could I have done differently for you know my kids or my grandkids or whatever. And these young people that are leaving I feel like it. It warms my heart a little bit because I feel like they have a chance to make their generation and the next generation different.

[02:14:52] You know that’s beautiful. I am always encouraged when I see young people come out. I have a member of a forum and I see people come out come onto the forum who are like 12 13 years old who can already see that it’s it’s bullshit.

[02:15:18] You know and I’m like oh man I wish it was over 13 I could have seen that and wasted decades of my life in it.

[02:15:26] And it’s funny how I just feel like you know those witnesses all when there’s world peace then you know the end is coming. And if they only know that technology was going to make it so that people would join their cult in the end.

[02:15:45] They have not protected that after the true religion that the Internet is going to follow.

[02:15:50] Now there are some people right now who are who are trippin because North Korea and South Korea are are having peaceful relations or whatever and so you know Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that when there’s going to be this cry of peace and security that the end is going to come and you know the funny thing is about that cry of peace and security is that originally at one point they thought that it was going to be that basically the world was going to be in such a bad state of affairs that people would be crying out for peace and security because they were hoping to have it and then Armageddon would come and Jehovah would usher in this new system of peace and security.

[02:16:35] And

[02:16:35] then they they kind of backpedaled and said Well you know we don’t know maybe it’ll be a time where it appears that mankind is on the brink of peace and security. And you can’t play it both ways. Like in other words. So when North and South Korea looked like they were going to be at war just a year ago you know Jehovah’s Witnesses said oh look you know things are getting tense over there the INS going to come. Now things are going better over there and it’s like oh peace and security here.

[02:17:10] I’m like no crying wolf either way. Right right.

[02:17:14] It’s

[02:17:14] always coming tomorrow. It’s been coming to morrow for over a century. Yes. Even before that you know 1914 if we’re going to start the beginning of that century they thought that’s when the end was coming.

[02:17:28] So

[02:17:28] let me think so too with all the world wars at that time.

[02:17:33] Right. They’ve just they’ve constantly changed. Yeah. Yeah. It’s this doesn’t it doesn’t fit. But anyway.

[02:17:43] Was

[02:17:43] there anyone else that you wanted to shout out.

[02:17:48] Now it is said that Michelle and I you know were we’re friends again. Like I said I’m not super close to anybody else on there and I’ve made some really really good friends.

[02:17:58] Now

[02:17:59] here in Indianapolis there they’ll say so they’ll sit there and they’ll like suffering through listening to my story isn’t. I appreciate that. I really feel like I found a couple of really really good friends here now in Indianapolis so I don’t feel as well feels lonely. You know it’s one thing to have a significant other but they can’t always fill every role for you. You know you kind of have to have other friends too and for a long time I did it. But now I feel like I do.

[02:18:30] So coming up through a past the first demographer make some more friends.

[02:18:34] Heck

[02:18:34] yeah I’m going to her it.

[02:18:36] It’ll

[02:18:37] be fun.

[02:18:37] Oh

[02:18:38] there’s quite a few people there last year. So

[02:18:42] what does I mean by WhatsApp.

[02:18:46] I

[02:18:46] say you’ll have to send me the invite saying go oh oh you’re not I don’t know if you knew the people or whatever. Ok yeah I’ll definitely some that to you. Yeah yeah.

[02:18:56] Offer

[02:18:57] that to make a note to do that.

[02:19:04] Yeah I’ll do that. I mean they invite hundreds and hundreds of people. I mean not everyone can come and they’re inviting people from a large geographical area. I think last year there was like maybe 30 people or something like that. But yeah I’ll send you the invitation.

[02:19:28] As

[02:19:29] always I want to thank Sydnee for being so open about her life and I’m really glad that she’s free and her kids never have to grow up in a cult. My wife and I look forward hopefully to going up where she lives and hanging out again sometime. Now I mentioned at the end there and in the intro there was an apostate fest. So the weekend of September the 8th and 9th I’m going to release an episode comprised of a bunch of many interviews that I did while I was at that Apostafest. They were originally going to be a bonus at the end of this episode but there’s enough good stuff there that I’m just going to go ahead and make it an episode of its own through it. You’re going to get to meet a bunch of people get to know their lives a little bit get some idea of who might be in an apostrophe fest if you ever have the opportunity to attend one sometime. All right now for the big announcement I started a Facebook group. I know there’s a ton of Jehovah’s Witness Facebook groups but this one is for fans and guests of the podcast. I don’t want it just to be that typical J-dub group where people keep up with the latest happenings in the cult. I want this to be for anyone that listens to the show and left any cults or religion. I guess you don’t even technically have to be a listener but I don’t know how you’re going to find out about it otherwise. But my goal is to make this a fun and supportive group. It’s about things that these stories are about people’s lives their feelings their what they want out of life. Trying to find that after leaving a call things like that. So I’ve already started one thread where people who were guests of the show can raise their hand and you can meet them. There’s another tribe where you can introduce yourself and write some of your own story to meet and to share with others. And then on the weekend my plan is to do what I’m calling an SCS thread or self care Saturday or Sunday where people can share something that they’re doing over the weekend for themselves.

[02:21:38] It’s not easy when you leave a cult to learn self care our whole lives typically revolved around the whims really of whatever call or group we were in. So you know maybe if you still struggle with self care maybe I’ll see what some other people are doing for themselves and get some ideas for yourself. So my point is that the goal is to make this a support group for all of us. The goal of this podcast isn’t just to focus on former Jehovah’s Witnesses. My goal is to help us all see that across these different cults or groups. We aren’t alone not only within our group but even outside our group we’re not alone. There are other people in this world that are going through or have gone through the same types of things.

[02:22:25] So we can all learn from one another whether we left the witnesses the FLDS the Mennonites or any other group the name of the group is Shunned Podcast. Two words and it’s a closed group so you’ll have to sign up and get approved to join by making it closed. Only members can see who’s in it. Now with that said I can’t control who gets in and verify who every person is. I can however kick out troublemakers with the quickness and if you’re super worried about being discovered. My suggestion would be to maybe create an account with a pseudonym and join that way. So come find us on Facebook at the group called shunned podcast and let’s do something good. I’ve already got several of the guests that have been on the show in there. Some listeners that saw my post on Facebook about it and it’s already fun to be honest so the more the merrier. Speaking of doing good between this podcast and This JW Life where I told my story we now have over 40000 total individual downloads. I never would have believed when I started thisJ.W. life that it would have grown like this. There are still people to this day that find an instar episode one of thisJ.W. a life lesson through that go through the whole this Jadaliyya life episode list and then come join us on shunned. You know I get really cool e-mails from people that have been helped to wake up by the podcasts people that are out but now know that they aren’t alone that they aren’t bad in some way and people that now understand that you know jata relative or friend and honestly you know some of these other groups. The Mennonites LDS whatever you know it’s people understanding you know what somebody else in another group went through. And by doing so they understand better what they went through themselves. I want to go ahead and take a moment and personally thank Sarah Kristen David and Lindy for signing up at Patreon.com/shunned to help support the show financially. They signed up just in the month of August. You can do so for as little as a dollar. And it really helps. You know right now I’m in the middle of doing extra episodes and with extra episodes comes extra costs. If I get these new these other ones transcribed that costs money as well as well as it takes more time. So again that’s Patry on dot com slash shunned if you’re interested in helping to support the show. I’m actually kicking around some ideas. I’ll probably start a thread in the group the Facebook group once we get a good sampling of people in there. I have so many people that are reaching out to me that want to sell their stories. At the present rate of one episode per month. I really can’t keep up with demand so I’m considering going to maybe two a month and I’m kind of trying it right now. As you can see here in August and September but you know there’s a there’s a limit to what I can do and work like I need to to make ends meet or at least like I do in our cleaning business. If I could do something like this and help people and take some pressure off cleaning financially I could spend more time doing this. We’re looking at options ourselves as far as cutting down some cleaning because frankly we’re running ourselves into the ground anyway just in that part of our life. So there you go. There’s part of self care right. Don’t run yourself into the ground in whatever business you have. I know that you know this podcast helps people I know that not only listeners are Hultz but people who get to tell their stories it helps to process your own stuff to kind of sit it down and maybe be able to walk away from it a little bit to get some perspective on it if nothing else. And I want to help as many other stories as possible but the reality is that there is only so many hours in a day and so much energy I can give mentally and emotionally to the interviews and production.

[02:26:41] This past month I did try to do an interview every weekend and I enjoyed doing it but it does take something from you mentally and emotionally to just frankly just to interview anyone but you know some of our stories are are pretty harsh. And you know I’m not immune to the impacts of listening to these stories and digging them out and bringing them out. So you know I’d like to be able to do more and I’m working on that as a potential option. Again I’ll post in the Facebook group Shawn podcast and and we’ll kind of have a discussion about what people want. You know I don’t know if my listeners are are interested in more content or if what I’m doing right now is enough more than enough for people to try to keep up with. You know I want to know what you want and try to I. I want to do all these myself. So don’t don’t think you’re saving me from myself by saying you know 1 a month is good enough for me and I can barely keep up as it is. If that’s true that’s fine. But if you would like more of these let me know and it is my desire to help everybody but at the same time obviously I realize that I can’t.

[02:28:12] So anyway trying to strike that balance there is what I’m looking for. And so I’m open to input their if you’d like to leave a comment for Sydney. You can do so at show podcasts dot com on the episodes page. And in a new Facebook group I think I’m going to put a post up every time I release an episode and you can also leave comments there of support or questions or whatever. For the people who who did the podcast and then if they’re a member of the group they can actually respond to their you can also support the by leaving a five star review on iTunes. There’s a link right in the description that is probably available on your app where you can do so. You can get all the information you need in the description on my site or from your podcast app. Follow us on Twitter Instagram or YouTube. As Sean podcast one word I even just put out on in person a video a vodcast on YouTube that you might like. The song that Sydney chose to represent her journey is playing God by Perry more and there’s a link in the description to the song if you’d like to listen or watch the video. It’s my bad. I’ve been neglecting to mention people’s songs. Trying to remember what all the put in the intro was an outgrowth of these episodes so you can go to shun podcasts dot com and see the songs chosen by each participant. The music for the podcast is about Fair Voyeur and titled No hell yet and until next week love others do no harm and go be happy.

Jason is shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:41] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we expose religions that use shunning as a tool to control people. I told you that I had some bonus episodes coming out. And this is the first I was able to interview JASON TOWNSEND And when I set up the interview I didn’t even know that he had a book coming out at the same time. So it was kind of a surprise to me and I wanted to get this one out to go ahead and consult coincide with the book release. So let’s go ahead learn a little bit about Jason and then I’ll tell you more about his book After the interview. My name’s Jason Townsend I’m 34 years old. I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I’m shunned. All right Jason so then how did you come to be a witness in the first place. I was born into it. My dad is an elder in Lancaster Pennsylvania. It’s kind of where near where jackass is filmed. We lived in Amish country. So religion marries as thick as molasses. Yes I thought we were normal compared to the Amish. Not really. Yeah that’s interesting. I assume you ran into a lot of Amish people when you were out in your door to door ministry work. Yeah yeah. We would actually try to you know speak to the Amish. They were they were never very responsive. I don’t think it was back. I don’t think there was ever an person that had even come to a meeting. But we tried anyway.

[00:02:11] Yeah that’s interesting I was you know we never had anything quite like that in our territory. I always wonder you know how people fare when they’re trying to talk to people that you know have such staunch religious beliefs in their own community and all that that’s so insular. I always wondered how how witnesses would fare trying to get anybody out of that charge to offer them electricity. Yeah. Yeah yeah. They’re so certain in their ways it’s but then you know I think the Jehovah’s Witnesses are exactly the same as the Amish. So it’s both very stubborn. And basically when you approach the Amish they make a lot of time just pretend they don’t speak English. Oh really. Yeah that’s that’s actually a trick that maybe a lot of people out there listening might want to come to their door. You understand the little German that you can yell YEAH YOU. All right so then so you know that’s an interesting place to be raised as a witness so you know how did your how did your parents come to be witnesses you mentioned your dad was an elder. You know how far does this go back in your family. OK. Ellen my great grandfather Max he was actually a Swiss inventor in Zurich Switzerland and he had a son who went in to World War Two. He got he came back with PTSD really bad. So when he answered the door he was ready. He needed something. He was suffering from everything he had seen in World War 2. So he was an easy convert to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. So consequently my mom was born into it. My dad’s mom.

[00:04:10] She answered the door and she had an abusive husband. Yeah. My grandpa was was nuts. He joined up so like my grandmother she needed something really bad his her home life wasn’t. So she joined up and then consequently my dad who is the oldest of eight. He was he was Jehovah’s Witness since he was about like 13 I think and he really took a liking to that. So my time trickled down to me. That’s all I knew from birth to very staunch parents and where your grandparents still in their religion and around at that time or if you had that extra influence. What’s kind of weird is yeah I know my grandfather on my dad’s side the one who was an alcoholic cause he died young. I mean I think I was like 10 so pretty much all of my influences were heavy Jehovah’s Witnesses my mom my mom’s dad he ended up being an elder and they were all pretty hardcore that include like do you have like cousins and uncles and aunts that were in the in the quote truth you know back then as well. Yeah yeah. The only ones I was allowed to know were Jehovah’s Witnesses. I like it said my dad my dad’s. He’s one of the eight. So there is actually he has several brothers I hardly know. Even though I see them I’ve seen them around when I go to my grandmother’s house. They have like a giant mechanic’s garage in Pennsylvania and it’s a pretty popular place. And they all work there except for my dad.

[00:06:11] So it was just weird when I visit my grandma I’d see them walking around and you know my parents be like you know don’t talk to them. The most friendly uncle they would walk around look like a friendly guy wanted to talk to. He had gotten a divorce. So he was like the devil and I was allowed to talk to him which can suck. So I wrote about half of my aunts uncles and cousins that I don’t know because they weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses. Yeah. It’s amazing how that works and how isolated you end up even in your own family. So then you know you you do have quite a few people surrounding you still you know even though there are others who you’re not allowed to talk to who are witnesses what what did it mean to you back then you know as a young person being raised in the religion. Was it something you love there or did you kind of feel strange about it all. Yeah. I was I was a really curious kid like a curiosity. It’s got me into trouble and it’s also the thing that has led me to learn everything I know. And I was a little kid I was a eager little kid who just loved people and I love being part of something. And I was I was into it. You know I wanted to be the best witness when I was a kid. Yeah. Did you. Did you have siblings or were you the oldest known the middle child. I have. Yeah I have an older brother who’s like 14 years older me who I actually didn’t know he had gotten kicked out when I was like.

[00:07:55] As soon as he turned 18 he went to senior week and that was the last straw for my parents and I just remember a fistfight in the doorway. I didn’t see my brother again for me. I basically still don’t know him. And I have. And I have a little sister who’s 2 years younger than me. And slowly but surely my parents are pretty much kicked out or pretty much everyone their kids. So yeah they there they have a way of driving people away. So then you’re you’re wanting to be this uber Dubb you know here you’re wanting to do this you can be. What was the way you know how did you see the world then you know growing up. I was terrified of it. They basically had me trained to hear the word world as a curse word. You know the world is a scary place. You know they kind of define the word worldly as like a slave to corruption an unbeliever outside of Jehovah’s one true religion the truth. So I came home from public school with news that I’d made a friend I’d immediately be corrected. You know my dad would say no you didn’t make a friend. You made an acquaintance. Yeah. So I had to keep conversations at school about school or use it as a preaching opportunity. Yeah. Your own private little territory as you. That’s like us sending us to school was infiltrating. Yeah yeah. We had a captive audience and they had to listen to us. Yeah man this is so miserable. It sucks. Yeah. So then how did you how did you fare.

[00:09:57] You know let’s let’s talk about school. How do you fare in school as a young witness. I was an outcast. I mean I loved actually being at school in elementary school. You know the holidays were still celebrated in public school and I guess it was early 90s late 80s and in elementary school. I’d go in at the beginning of the year and my mom would make this big Ziploc bag full of little snacks and she’d give it to the teacher. So during holiday parties pretty much any party they had. I wasn’t allowed to participate. And for one reason or another. So I was sent out to the hallway to eat my little snack alone during these parties. I didn’t salute the flag. I wasn’t really supposed to be too friendly or body up you know like we talked about any schoolmates. So it wasn’t hard enough I stuck out like a sore thumb and then sometimes the beginning of the year my mom would come into the class and explain why I was so weird to everyone which just made it even worse. Yeah. Then you go out ministry and sometimes you bump into one. So that was also fun. Wow I’m trying to think like the whole SMAC thing like I’m trying to think is that a kind thing she did and that you know she at least wanted you to be able to have something special. What are you sitting out in the hall or. Yeah. Is it kind of sad because you were deprived like maybe you could have sat in the hall but had some of the snacks that the other kids had. No.

[00:11:41] Yeah. Maybe maybe she looked at it like a cat and they want to touch that act out of you. You felt this way too. But yeah you know like I can’t actually even thought of the food as being evil like I would even take a bite of a birthday cake because it’s got Satan in it. Oh yeah. Yeah. You might go off and behead someone if you if you like of the birthday cake. Right. My mom was a really loving person. We had a as long as everyone felt like we had a very tight family. And yet I think she was really it was a gesture of love. Yeah yeah. It sounds like she was trying to to acknowledge your feelings and that you know at least if you’re gonna stay out in the hallway you know you should have something that makes you feel special. Yeah. That’s pretty cool. I was her special boy but like a lot of Jehovah’s Witnesses she was just clueless as to how that actually made me look in reality. Sure my back. Yeah yeah for sure. So then what about at home. You know how is your life at home. You know speaking of your mom and your dad your how is your life growing up as a child at home. Back at home we studied for church almost a year. The meetings almost constantly. And just a little bit for school. Secular Education was very secondary. We had material we had to study for meetings. There were three meetings per week.

[00:13:15] At that time at least one at least one day and field service as a bare minimum. So I was a really busy kid you know my dad was an elder. Even when we were studying for the meetings at home we had a really think about our answers to the material. It wasn’t just you know like yes or no we had to go in depth know because there’s this kind of competition you know at the meetings. There’s this whole like framework that exists in the Jehovah’s Witness system that other people don’t think about too much and that it goes into like how good your answers are at meetings you how people decide how good of a Jehovah’s Witness you are based on how deep you go into your answer. So so we we always try to be the best you know get the best answers. So it took a lot of study and I wanted to study for school. But we spent like 90 percent of our time studying religious materials so I was just constantly busy when I was at home. Yeah you know. Two things that you said that struck me and one is you said you had three meetings back then. But what I always found interesting and it just popped into my head. You know we would always say well the organization would always promote how awesome it was that they had five meetings a week because you know Thursday was technically even though it was one meeting you were going to it was broken up into two parts and they called those meetings Theocratic Ministry School. And the service made. Right.

[00:15:02] And then on Sunday you had the public meeting the public talk and the Watchtower study. And I thought Oh yeah it just struck me how you know I would always say we have three meetings a week. You just said we had three meetings a week. But the society the Watchtower Society would always say we have five meetings a week. And you can see how we can make it sound more psycho. Yeah yeah. You can see how even even the way that they count the number of meetings they have is to try to make it sound more than it does. It’s just it just struck me as you said that it was something I always wondered about when I was a kid. I was like why do we why do we say we have five meetings. I mean we go to the Keenum Hall three times a week. You know each time is a meeting. We are meeting each time we go. But somehow I guess they acted like we left and came back for the second part. It’s really weird like they don’t say we have. I just think for their regional conventions they call them now they don’t say like they’ll say we have three days of conventions but they don’t say we have like you know I don’t know how many parts individual parts there are at a convention. They don’t think we. We have four to eight conventions every week you know.

[00:16:20] You know I think one of the lawyers in Bethel came up with that kind of struck me as strange and then also just the fact that you were talking about how how at the meetings it wasn’t just because we were all we were all being judged on you know not just where are we paying attention but why are we commenting and raising our hands and participating. But then it even went a step farther like you said and it’s how good are your comments. Do you right. Do they show that you are fully like accepting the brainwashing and taking it within yourself so that you can say it in your own words and you have an even maybe go beyond what they’re saying. It’s just amazing how we were basically lauded for self brainwashing. Yeah. You know even though down to the way we dressed. Yes. You know the kids that that didn’t dress quite right. They were kind of assumed not to be very zealous wherever. So as an elder’s kid. Any any clue David anyone in the congregation that might be a bad influence I couldn’t even talk to. So I stuck out an extra Sawka so I’m guessing you had somewhere. So you know there were the brothers who wore the full suits you know with Mat pants and jacket. And then there were the brothers who wore the you know they would come in with khakis and a sport coat or whatever. And they were looked at differently than the brothers who wore the full suit that was matchy matchy. So you know. Yeah. You had to one up each other there too. I know I got involved in the. I can’t peacocks you know that’s the way you can express yourself as a young person.

[00:18:11] You’re you’re meeting cause you know you might dress like a golfer and ordinary life but they got you know the nicest suit and tie to wear a meeting. I wanted to be like one of the khaki kids. I kind of like get mired down. Yeah me too. But I had it. Yes. Oh yeah. If you’re going to give a part on a convention you have to wear a full suit you can’t wear the khakis and jacket. Oh you get booed off the stage. Yeah yeah. They won’t even let you up there if you if you’re not matchy like that. Yeah yeah. Definitely been there done that. Yeah I had a buy. I remember I was one time I was going to be on a convention and I didn’t own a suit. We were pretty poor. And I remember I had to go out and buy a suit so that I could give my PA on the convention because they wouldn’t let me up if yeah yeah didn’t look the best and it just shows so much of it is about appearance as we’ve been discussing already. So how did you feel you know in these in these different settings you know at home school and church or the Keenum Hall you know how I know you mentioned at school you know you felt somewhat like an outcast. But what about at home and in the Keenum Hall. What were your feelings as a kid. In the Kingdom Hall I was a really enthusiastic kid. I was eager to take on responsibility. I like to please so I wanted to be the most righteous kid in the whole congregation.

[00:19:48] So as an elders kid I was like a superpower and I actually alienated myself without knowing it to the kids in my own congregation. They were scared of my zeal or they were just jealous and they wanted outranked me. I was like a dumb little puppy. Add too much energy. I loved everyone but I got smacked on the nose most of the time from my dad. The other elders loved me. My dad always pushed me to do more. And frankly I think my energy just annoy the hell out of him. But my parents loved me in the years when I lapped up all the spiritual crap shoveled out me and I played by the rules at school. I did at his fellow Guardian belong there. But it was it was also the thing I was most curious about. Being at school and and just learning about the world it was like a giant elephant in our family room. I know a lot of energy and curiosity. And I was encouraged to farm the curiosity for the Jehovah’s Witnesses. But anything regarding world the world or school and I really love science and computers computers were just starting to become a thing. That was all that was stifled pretty heavily. Yes I can I can only imagine. I mean it sounds like your dad was pretty hardcore Yeah. He does. Borderline abusive sometimes so yeah. Preach they kind of raised us in the truth with an iron fist you know. So I mean you already mentioned something about your brother. Oh yeah. You know so you know it sounds like things were pretty heavy handed. Yeah yeah absolutely. I mean I still even I forgot.

[00:21:55] I forgot about just a few minutes. I actually know more about the guy down gas station than I do my brother. Well then how did how did things go. You know presumably you know I assume you got baptized at some point. How did things go as you started to get older and and you know go into your teenager years and young adulthood. Yeah. OK so at 12 I got baptized and I was working on being a ministerial servant auxiliary pioneer whenever I could. As I got into my teenage years and had puberty started here that’s when things got really difficult for me. So you know as a teen you feel more pressure to find your pack find your place to fit in. And I did. I didn’t have any good friends in the Jehovah’s Witnesses. You know because what I said before I said I was so hard core most kids were scared of me or I was allowed to have friends at school. And the older I got the more I wanted to be social. And I like to kids at school. I was curious about because I didn’t know much about them even though it’s shoulder to shoulder with them every day. So I would sneak friendships and of course I like girls. I like them a lot. It was almost weird how much I like girls that there is girls were like called a house and my mom would scream because you know we had recorded phone that was leashed to the wall.

[00:23:38] There was a few of them around the house and I were like brought home a cordless phone one time and hung it on the wall. Within like an hour my dad had taken it down thrown in the trash bin and put the cord one back up so we’d be left to the. Let’s hit it. Yeah. So anyway as soon as girls would call my mom we’d pick up and tell them you know this is not what we want for our son. Don’t call your. Which made it. I go back to school blowdown my neighbor my closest neighbour we lived out in the woods kind of in the middle of nowhere. But my closest neighbor was a Jehovah’s Witness. My parents had bought our acre of land from another job as a witness so that the path of least resistance would lead right to another job as witness front door. It was like a year old maybe we are gone through puberty together and we ordered a playboy and we got caught. He actually told on himself that ended up being this huge thing and the shame that everybody carry is where they fall on themselves. Oh yeah I mean and it turns out you know from me from just going through puberty you get to just some of things I put together later I it turns out he’s totally repressed homosexual. He’s still on the religion so he’s probably still not out the closet but I just feel bad for him he’s pretending to be somebody else and in my teenage years my parents were starting to catch me and punish me right left like every day for trying to sneak a look at girls or doing something you know going through the Sears catalog.

[00:25:15] Get the brass section and stuff it trying to talk to worldly kids and so they were tightening the leash. I mean I couldn’t do anything. Yeah I mean that the tighter they they they pull in that leash. I mean then the more any little thing that you do is going to be stimulating whether it’s you know seeing the bra section of the serious catalog and just trying to even look at a girl or whatever like yeah you know the more you you forbid something the more enticing it becomes oftentimes in life. And it sounds like wow they were they were just so tough on you. Yeah I have to ask you were you were baptized that’s 12. Why did you get baptized or what. If you think back you know did you feel pressure or did you. Were you just into it that much. Or you know kind of a do you know what was behind it I was find that interesting. Seemed like I got the pressure but I know I do remember just this little thing like when I went to get baptized my dad kind of gave the prerequisite of like you know we’re not pushing you to do this. But I mean everything my whole life I’m still this way anything I want to do I’m going to do balls into a wall and I just wanted to be you know one of the first kids in my peer group to get baptized in. At the time I really really believed it. And I got baptized for the right reasons. But like you said that the tighter they yanked the harder I pulled away. Yes.

[00:27:11] It goes back to that I think I talked about it in and podcast the state of your life but it goes back to that illustration. They would always use of the spring and how a child was like a spring in and you compressed this spring. And if you let go of the spring too fast then you know the child will just bounce everywhere and go wild. But if you slowly release the pressure on that spring you can control the direction that it goes. And my question which I’ve mentioned on the podcast was Why do you have to crush the spring in the first place right. Right. And that’s what they were doing to you they were absolutely crushing you from every angle it seems like. Yeah. That’s funny you said that. I wrote my book about it and I described it as as a rubber band. So like a scene you know I kind of snapped and I just fell right to the ground. And all this kinetic just wasted. Yeah yeah that that makes a lot of sense. I mean you know both illustrations are so accurate. You know I mean I can I can totally see you know that rubber band that holds so much energy. But you know you can only pull on it for so long before it’s going to break. Yeah and once it does it’s useless. I mean it’s just the first nothing much you can do at that you’ve you know broken broken it pretty badly. So so how did that go for you then.

[00:28:43] You know as far as you know being this rubber band let’s say and you know being having them pulling on you so tightly as you you know progressed in your young adulthood. How did things transpire. Yeah it was a pretty dramatic snap so I know like I said I was baptized when I was 12 and by the time I’ve been working since I was 15 just to get out the house I was starting to feel the byproduct of them encouraging me to study all the time was when I started to read about how about the other religions I forget which book it is now been out for almost 20 years but mankind’s search for God brother. There you go. Yeah. Well I didn’t understand was why I had to read their description of this religion. Yes. And yeah I started to kind of look outside I sneak to the library at school and I I start to fight to find loopholes in it. A lot of loopholes that I thought were there when I’m talking like 14 15 years old. They were just like a feeling it was just a bad feeling I had and I really loved everybody. And I just wanted to learn more about those things. So I guess I was working since I was 15 and I had a little bit of money saved up and I bought a car as soon as I turned 16. My parents didn’t know about it. I hid it in our woods. And I started kind of covertly dating this this Catholic girl at school. So yeah like at 16 shoot she was white. The first love of my life. And I’d sneak over there. They know it.

[00:30:41] They knew I had a job at a hardware store and they kind of they didn’t like it. They did not like that I had a job. I just kind of insisted on it. So my dad would follow me around town. I didn’t know it but he was he was talented and I got caught having dinner at the Catholic girls house. My dad he said he was following me around and he basically ripped me out of their house. I think he just walked right in and it was a huge thing like grab me by the back of a shirt. And they were all freaked out. And he’s like this is not work. This isn’t what I want for our son. You know you have no idea. He’s like you know he kind of tried to apologize a little bit like I know you guys on dad but he does. I mean this family is this Catholic family. I was at I mean to this day. They’re pretty much the model example of what a good family should look like an yeah. It didn’t make any sense to me that my dad was yanking me out of there. And pretty that’s pretty traumatic. Yeah awful. Well when somebody a worldly family had had saw that my my girlfriend’s family day they were like okay sometimes you’re right sometimes actually a little weird at your house and they kind of they kinda encouraged me a little bit to to leave. I guess around there they were very worried about me but they I think I took the reassurance that they thought it was weird.

[00:32:24] Pretty heavily and I took that car and hid in the woods and I left at 10 o’clock at night. I packed everything I had gathered my whole life since birth into a trash bag. I was pretty fit and I had this big try to sneak out of the house I had this big blow up with my dad. We were out. First time ever curst out him was in the front yard. He got in the car tried to chase me down and it was a huge thing aired but I got away. I had a sleep in my car for a while. I’m like 16 and I was bouncing around different kids houses who just thought he was crazy. What I was going through you know I stated some pretty shady bad places but I made sure I always went to school everyday. The school was the structure it needed. As a teenager were now without a family. Eventually that Catholic girl’s family they felt bad for my situation. And they took me in. So like at 16 17 I was living with my girlfriend and her Catholic family. And it was great man. If I felt so happy and relieved and excited to have Peligros finally normal and this weight had lifted off me and I was free and just run around still like a dumb puppy. But Dejour did your family like that they reach out to you. Did they try to either kindly reach out to you and encourage you to come back and show love. Or did they even like an authoritarian you know come at you with the you know you’re coming home type thing you know they did.

[00:34:11] Was there some way that they did they attempt to go after you at all. Yeah a little bit but. So when it first happened I think yeah there they were. We didn’t have cellphones back then. So they were trying to track me down and I actually I think I went back and it only lasted a day or two. Just having a little taste of freedom was like. I mean I went back for maybe like a day or two just out of being torn away from my family. And like what that felt like to go to sleep at night and I said No you’re your family. Is away from you. You know it was a very emotional thing. So I try to go back in and they treated my see they already already had my brother who went through this. So they can’t I had practice. They decided that it was best to treat this with like a jailer you know. And they were even more rigid and so when I went back it only lasted a day or two and I was like Screw this I’m out of here. And then they decided to be real assholes. When I left home and I’m sure you understand there’s this dynamic that when somebody leaves there they’re dangerous. MARTIN You know I was becoming worldly and my at that time I had just got my driver’s license and if you’re under 18 your parent can revoke the license so the only way I was getting school and work and stuff with my car. They my dad voluntarily revoked my driver’s license so even though I wasn’t living at home I never saw them.

[00:36:04] He just kind of like stock 1 2 million and revoke that license to make it harder for me to get around. Probably hoping that I crawl back home but I didn’t. I just drove anyway. Yeah that’s that’s pretty controlling. And I think that’s that’s kind of the theme here that you can see is so much here it really is just about control. Yeah I think that’s a point of religion in the first place but oh yeah yeah I agree. And then you know also you just see the the authoritarian nature of not only Jehovah’s Witnesses but you know even down to the micro level inside your own family. Your dad was just being an authoritarian instead of being a good loving father who you know because he could they could have taken you back in and said OK you know like you don’t want to live this life. I get it you know but how can we find a compromise or anything. But no it’s you know his way or you know their way or the highway. And they even revoke your license you can’t drive on the highway. Yeah just a little jab in the ribs Yeah yeah let’s make it harder for you to have any success in this in this life. So then how did it continue. I mean you know you’re living with this family and and clearly estranged from your own family. How did that play out as you know did you go on to college you know. How did it how did things end up there.

[00:37:48] Well I mean all of a sudden I was in the midst of puberty and I went from being the most reserved kid in high school to the most free overnight. I was like the only kid in high school who moved out of their parents house so you know I had a I had an opportunity to really try to make up for lost time. And I did. I went to parties work where kids thought it was crazy to feed the Jehovah’s Witness kid who mom whose mom used to come in and preached her from fear and drugs and might put my girlfriend’s mom over there were really good parents they stepped in where my Jehovah’s Witness parents let go. And they tried their best to finish raising me. But like you was a rubber band and I was I had a taste and I just wanted to see everything I was kept away from. And she did help me get a full scholarship to college. She just wrote a story about how I survived that story essay she wrote an essay about how I survived high school and I actually got a full ride to a college over it. But they were they were from New York City and we ended up having a rough situation when I was living with them and I ended up staying my senior summer after graduation. I left Amish country and I went up to New York. And I loved it there. You know life is like Johnny 5 and short circuits just needed input. You know add up your lot input.

[00:39:33] I got a job that summer I made friends at Friendly’s Ice Cream and these really genuine friends who didn’t know how I grew up they just I was just a kid from Pennsylvania who showed up and that summer was great and I had to go back to college for that fall right. And that whole ride lasted about three weeks before I screwed it up and I got caught by a security guard drinking beer and I had a girl in my room and they actually called the cops on me. So I fled Pennsylvania went back to New York kind of like how I left my parents in the middle of the night running away. And I never went back to Pennsylvania again. So then how did things shake out with that family. Were they. I’m sure they had some input. You know they had they had helped you get this scholarship and oh yeah they came up to New York and tracked me down in a chair to try to get me to come back to Pennsylvania. They were actually pretty upset but I just made friends and I loved it. New York I wanted so bad. Keep learning about this world that I haven’t done anything else. And by some terrible stroke of luck. When I moved to New York just completely by accident I met this group of Jehovah’s Witness runaways. I mean they were like the lost boys in New York. And is this a new york city or you New York State. This is Long Island. I’m like Queens Nassau County town full Levittown. They were up here and they all left and they were really really into drugs and yeah I start. And I kind of just fresh off the boat here. And I tried everything out.

[00:41:36] It wasn’t just we but like hard stuff like Coke ecstasy mushrooms. I mean they were growing mushrooms. Oh beards everything. So one of my first drug experiences was I had a really bad trip where I decide to sniff ecstasy in each room. This is the first time I did it. I just yeah I said everything I did I did bottles of water. I’d go all out there right. Yeah yeah. It turns out they weren’t just doing that stuff they were selling it. And I mean not just little dime back there were weight. And there was pretty much the worst situation I could get into. And I tried everything. I got my input like I had girlfriends. I partied all the time. Actually I ended up in jail. I crashed my car went through the windshield took a swing and a car ended up overdosing on ecstasy. Really bad. She almost always drew my face. But I did have a little survival instinct just from that short time of being on the streets during high school and I had a taste of homelessness and I just want to make sure that was it me. So I kept a good job no matter how hard I partied. I always made sure I went to my job. I worked for a major insurance company that I purposely took midships so that I could party all night long and I have to wake up early to go to work. But it was a. It’s been raised an obvious country. Give me a little bit of a work ethic. Or is just being terrified of being a fish out of water.

[00:43:09] I just made it was the only thing I had. It was a priority but I ended up in rehab that my job it had paid for. There was a good company and I met this guy in rehab who had put it in my head. I got to move out to California. So I just packed up and moved to California and then ended up being a really bad situation. He was like a he was a really scary person. And as soon as we got here to California I ran out of a motel in the morning and I left everything behind in that high school diploma and worked for all my clothes everything and I moved in with this girl I met at a bar just the night before. There’s a first person I met in California call them up like this crazy thing just happened as a cop asleep on the couch. And I’ve been friends with them for four years. So did you move to California with that guy from New York. Yeah I got out of rehab in and rented a convertible from enterpriser leave the state with it and we drove that thing all 3000 miles to San Diego. Matt When I screw up I screw up big time. You know again this is how you do whenever you do something you do it whole hog. You know the whole Yeah it does. Just wanted to learn everything I could do it. Yeah I mean it was it was satisfying my curiosity I was learning a lot of things.

[00:44:42] But when you’re you know like in your young 20s you’re kind of oblivious to how what damage you’re dealing in and how off the rails you really are. You think you’re invincible. Yeah. So I looked down at him with this girl. Yeah yeah. Her roommate ended up being my best friend. We dated for a while. It didn’t work out. I dated a lot of different girls and then they were a really good influence so they came from affluent families. They were intelligent they graduated college and they said they were a good influence on me. I slowly got on my feet. I got away from the Jehovah’s Witness kids I’ve met in New York and kind of built a new group of friends here and and built them a little smarter this time around and had good influences around. I slowly got on my feet. So then as you’re you’re getting on your feet. What does that look like. Did you know you find gainful employment did you go back to school. No I didn’t go back to school. I had I always I was on the court. To build community committee where we built kingdom halls. I really love construction. I like to work with my hands so for 15 years now I’ve been doing construction I was good at so I had a pretty good job doing construction electrical work. And I eventually met my wife when I was about 26 I met a flight attendant from Puerto Rico. We got married. Which was great. I got more input. I got to travel the world. She spoke six languages.

[00:46:51] She’s from Puerto Rico and got to travel the world get free drinks on the way in first class as a nonrevenue airline spouse. We’ve got to see Japan. Dublin went back to New York pretty much every weekend. But about a year or two into marriage we started thinking about kids and my 10 year high school reunion was coming up and I hadn’t seen my parents really in 12 13 years. And my dad was he was scary. He was an intimidating big guy when I left home and he said he enforced our pretty aggressively. But my parents actually now that I was married they figured I guess I was a little less scary so they invited my wife and I to stay with them from my high school reunion where I saw my dad at the airport is probably one of the most impactful things that I’ve ever seen today. He was completely unrecognizable to me. He was scary to my left and when I saw him again he was old and gray and walking with a limp I mean we didn’t we didn’t even really recognize each other. And like I hid there was like crying the whole way out of the car. My wife was curious about the story. That’s why I went back and it can be pretty horrible if she came from a Spanish culture where they had tight families and she just didn’t understand. So when she met my parents she understood. We woke up one morning I had the stroke of luck one at one of the fellow elders I think died the morning after the reunion.

[00:48:44] So we will go to my mother’s standing over top of us like scream and you know you carry you know you’re going to die you’re gonna miss out in paradise. And my wife left me pretty much only got home she realized this isn’t a good guy to have a family with. She realized I was serious. We got divorced that kind of sucks. I guess I didn’t see that coming. It’s alright yeah I have them all right. I mean and I understand the culture that she came from you know being totally different and and what a shock that must have been to wake up to your mom screaming like that. And that’s. Yeah. God is so wild to an outsider. Yeah just seeing it. I guess you figured I was being dramatic or something the whole time just didn’t register to think she knew only Jehovah’s Witnesses or anything like doesn’t matter at all. But what she actually saw that I think that hit home for the wasn’t a good situation to be in. Well she got out of it. So how do you first. I’m sorry. And second how to pick up the pieces of that. I mean how do you you know when you when you’re leaving get home and that happens. How do you. Clearly you just have to go on. But what what did you do next. What were your next steps.

[00:50:32] Well you see I also I also drank a lot because a erm I’d been torn away from my very young age and I always felt this like this kind of emptiness and I’m just pretty much always been scared so I would mask it with drugs and alcohol and I did that I don’t know when my wife left and I jumped in to a rebound situation pretty much even before I was divorced made his horrible decision. I moved out to Dallas for a while and what as a religious girl hit like a divorce situation like that again get into. And that ended up horribly because by then I was pretty much atheist and I developed this bad drinking problem. I was with her for a couple of years and I just realized I’m unhappy. And I was jumping from relationship to relationship. And I was expecting these girls to replace my entire family. And it’s not fair to them now. I put a lot of them on their shoulders and when I moved back out to San Diego I moved back with absolutely nothing. The relationship in Texas went horrible she took my truck. I came back with a backpack. I was thirty one I think by that time and I had absolutely nothing. I stayed on friends couches. I bought a boat and I lived in the Pacific. I’m on this boat. It’s pretty cool in San Diego. You could live for like MS a very expensive place but you can live on a boat for about five dollars a month. It includes your electricity hookup and your water. Add up I revisited something I used to do as a kid. I like to write. I love I’d write these little stories and pretend like I was somewhere else. Growing up in a different family and I’d make my old little books you know. And I’d read them and pretend I wasn’t this kid. So I just knew that I was I had a drinking problem.

[00:52:51] And for somebody who has curiosity and likes to try different things from me to do something repeatedly every day it makes no sense. So I pretty much realize this and almost overnight I stopped drinking. I was with everything bad that had gone wrong. I still ended up in a situation where I woke up every morning on the Pacific and looked out my front windshield and saw sailboats go on by and the military ships coming in and out past Cordaro island. I felt like I was still I didn’t have anything materially but I had gotten everything I wanted when I was when I was a a Jehovah’s Witness that I dreamed about you know I’ve been through all these circumstances I learned firsthand why not to do them. I mean when I heard all the people who had been through this and been through like hard situations where things just happened bam bam one after another is to right cause I floated on that bow and I wrote I just wrote down everything and happened and chronologically just went through it. And then when you have that as like one piece that you can look back on I was able to kind of put together the pieces and figure out you know the patterns I was making mistakes in. And yeah I was able to make some changes. Yeah Sunny. Yeah. It’s funny that you mention the patterns because I’ve just been sitting here as you’ve been talking listening. Last night my wife and I went to see Citizen Kane the old movie. Really. Yeah. We went to see it with some friends at a local theater.

[00:54:45] They were playing some old movies and Jimmy Wales Yeah yeah. Orson Welles yeah. Orson Welles Yeah yeah. And it was it was you know when when I left that movie I was like you know you could see this pattern of this kid that you know his his mom pretty much doesn’t seem to care about him a lot his mom and his dad and they just kind of send them off and he spends his entire life chasing love. His entire life trying to to force everyone else to love him the way he feels he needs to be loved to you know make up for the injury he had as a kid. And we as human beings tend to repeat certain patterns. There are things that happen to us when we were young and then we tend to go through life trying to fix those injuries from when we were kids. I mean I know that I’ve noticed that in myself and I did you know thisJ.W. life I told my whole story and I’ve noticed things in there about myself and I’m still noticing things and I was just sitting here you know after watching that movie last night I’m just sitting here listening to your story and saying how you know you had to run you know just pack up and run to leave a bad situation with your parents and just how you know over and over again you know you you get put in situations where you have to pack up and run. You know it’s it’s it’s it’s amazing how we play out these things in our lives. Yeah I actually ended up doing it. I mean I kind of paraphrased this but I counted up.

[00:56:27] I actually ended up packing up and running thirty eight times in five states. Wow. Yeah isn’t it. You know and it’s not it’s not something to look at a person and be like that’s not something to point out where a person is wrong or something. It’s just it’s it’s fascinating how we as humans internalize this stuff and we get hurt in some way and then it just manifests itself and we don’t even know we’re doing it. We are given these roles when we’re young sometimes and we will play them out. And that’s for everybody. And I think that what you said was so so good about you know sitting down and you know kind of writing out your life and I mean it helps from a processing perspective just to get it out of your head and then you get to see this whole picture and be like oh yeah you know this is that thing. Yeah oh yeah yeah. It’s we humans are amazing creatures. Yeah yeah it really is. I’m glad that you got to do that for yourself because I’m sure that it has helped to you can’t heal what you don’t see. All right. Right. Going through some of that now though. We all have you know yeah. I mean you know I’m saying that I don’t. I struggle to as a witness. I knew everybody and a lot of people knew me and I had like all these. I’ve always struggled with the concept of what is a friend. And so like I knew all these people but I never had any. There was no intimacy there.

[00:58:14] There was no real relationship. We just we knew each other and it was around common thing. You know being the religion and right now that I’m out I’m finding you know like I know all these people now you know and I have friends that do different things with or whatever and that’s great. But I find that you know a lot of them are honestly couple friends it’s things that my wife and I go do things with people but I’m kind of terrified of putting myself out there and being vulnerable and trying to have like a one on one friendship with somebody because I’ve just never never been taught how to do that or how to get close to people and things like that it’s not. You didn’t get close to anybody as a witness. They were probably going to be disfellowshipped or leave. You know in the distant future and then you would never be able to see them again. So why have a relationship with them. Right. And so you know we all have these patterns that we play out and you know these places where we have to we have this damage from the religion or from our families of origin in the religion because it all plays hand in hand and we all have to try to try to look at ourselves and think OK well you know this is a it’s not like if we weren’t born into Jehovah’s Witnesses we would somehow have these magical laws where everything was healthy but we do have special things that maybe we have to deal with. Right.

[00:59:48] Well we always would have been exposed to the to the real world that you have to live and work in. Altium Yeah. So many times you know people have a hard time making friendships once they leave. Yeah yeah it is. It is. It’s just hard to get close to people or you know like as a as a young witness. I’m here I’m spill my guts. Yeah. As a young witness you can’t get close to anybody like in school or anything like that because you’re not allowed to be friends with them. And then at the Kingdom Hall you’re not allowed to really be yourself because you’re having to put on this appearance that you’re the perfect witness and that you know you don’t like this song or that movie or whatever you say you can’t be yourself anymore. Right. And so you know then when you leave first you kind of have to find yourself and figure out who you even are. And then it’s terrifying to show that to other people like Will you accept me if I show you that I disagree with died or you know I like this other thing or whatever because you spend so long trying to be who everybody else wants you to be so that you can fit in in any you know somewhere whether that be inside the witnesses or are like you said outside the witnesses sometimes people leave and they think they have to be you know like that pack of ex witnesses that you you ran into who were so heavily involved in all these bad things that are kind of this self-fulfilling prophecy that the organization gave us which was that if you leave you’re going to be this drug dealing murdering raping horrible person.

[01:01:33] Ed so you leave and you’re like well I guess I got a lot of deals from drugs and rape somebody at my yesterday so that I can fit in and out here. Yeah yeah yeah. You know this taught you that you would just be the worst of the worst. So yeah you know we all have these we all have so much damage we carry with us from from that time in our lives and we have to try to figure out either do we like that part of us you know for you you know maybe you love being kind of more transient and being able to move around or maybe you really want to be stable more stable in a certain place you know. And so that’s what you find. You know we all have to kind of find you know do we want to be that adventurer or do we want to settle down somewhere or you know what do we want our lives to look like. And it’s a battle that we all have to fight. Unfortunately at a much older age than other people because you know we grew up the way we did. Right. Well if you left you know the Jehovah’s Witnesses when you were single. The first thing you find is your penis which is going to lead you directly into trouble. Pretty much let on the Lost Boys Anjos witness. And you Arctus that’s what led us in trouble. All of us and we did not have practical practical information to approach the world with. And they expect us to fail. Yeah they don’t give you the tools to survive.

[01:03:07] And then they call it prophecy. You know when you win you fail is complete hypocrisy. So let’s take that let’s let’s take that for instance that you just gave. How you leave and find your penis. You know I was just thinking you know the other day I was reading a thread on this forum and they were talking about you know like did the organization screw you up sexually and they were talking about how even in even in marriages even even inside the organization you’re taught that you know your genitalia whichever variety you have is evil and off limits and bad. And you know while you’re dating this brother or sister in the congregation like you can date them. But of course only with chaperones and don’t even think sexual thoughts. And then as soon as you get married boom like you were expected to be the sexual creature. You know you can’t just stick with it right you can’t just turn things a lot and often people know that’s just systematically destroying relationships. I feel bad for a lot of Jehovah’s Witness couples that that put on a smile pretend everything’s great and you know it’s not. I’ve been through this. I mean I’ve had like 30 some relationships I’ve tried to make work like I’m not just talking one night stands I’ve tried. And I realize I have so much to learn practical information that I have to figure out. I have a failed marriage. Yeah they really screwed up. I actually have a daughter right.

[01:04:59] I was in the middle of this you know trying to I don’t even know my daughter over this whole mess I was as soon as I left. By penis led me directly into trouble. Yeah. Now 34 I’m where I should be when I was 24. I’m trying to clean it up. Yeah yeah. You know let’s let’s let’s take people and let’s let’s repress all of their natural not just you know sexuality but just their abilities their thoughts their feelings let’s repress everything in them and then expect them somehow to be healthy. You can’t do that. Right. And so you know I think oh good lord if I found myself single some day married since I was 21 years old I’d have no I have no clue. I don’t know what the rules are in the wide world around us. I don’t know. You know just dealing with people with different histories and everything. You know it would be so hard. And I can I feel for you know people who leave and you know have to figure all that out on their own because it’s it’s it’s a very hard thing to do to navigate you know the world is hard enough to navigate as is. Throw in a culture that makes you know decades behind other people and a lot of ways and try to figure this stuff out. It’s just so unfair. But I’m glad that you know I’m sorry.

[01:06:34] You know you two have had to go through you know pain in these different areas but I’m glad that you know you’re you’re mature enough to look at this stuff and to be able to see it now you know for what it was and to try to you know kind of you know grow and work toward a better life for yourself. As a Korean have it you know hard enough just leaving the Jehovah’s Witness religion we also grew up on the cusp of one of the biggest things if not the biggest thing to ever hit the human race. The invention of the Internet. Now dating is turned upside down. We’re learning to navigate this new timeline of the human race. Is a star it’s a hard time. Yeah you on a call. Yes absolutely. Absolutely. So then you know we kind of know why you left. You know the Kalt. But I’ll let you know. Do you want to do you want to say why you left or you know was there more to it than just you know that period when you were that age. You know why would you say that you left now. What helped you to wake up to what it really was. I was following an instinct and I’m glad I did. I still think I have pretty good instincts. I mean I got a lot of trouble but I learned my lessons. The hard way and I’m I’m still glad I did. I mean I learned a hell of a lot. But back then it was science and girls. That’s why I pretty much left. Were my favorite subjects of study. The more I studied the truth the more I took issue with it. And I really find it hilarious that they name their religion. The truth is like if you start a call we should name it. The ultimate truth no Baxley’s. Yeah.

[01:08:42] It’s so insidious just naming it that it shows you know that there is an agenda just in the name is juvenile. Yeah yeah. Well I love other people and I began to look for ways as I was studying as now baptized Jehovah’s Witness. I was starting to look for ways to prove the child was witness witnesses wrong instead of always bending every bit of information that comes in to prove it right. And I was surprised at how easy it was to punch holes in an almost 20 years since then I’ve I’ve educated myself very heavily in science cosmology physics biology geology. I love everything that I can learn. And the more I learn about that the more it just takes me away from that religion and the rationale that religion. They are. I think there’s a definite reason why they they keep you from secular education. Yeah I I just it seems so clear to me. You personally that that the Bible and the religion Bible and religion are totally manmade fabrications. I don’t see any evidence to support it more. And I’m glad that I left. I’d like to say that no one don’t narc. There wasn’t a global flood 4000 years ago are eight point seven million species didn’t come from two of every animal that survived on a wooden boat. The population didn’t come from one incestuous family and Sanders is a real and a man’s a grammatically incorrect way to say a man. It just sounds like a story to me. You know it just sounds like a manmade story.

[01:10:33] I can’t believe that I was starting to figure it out it at like 15 and my parents are still in their 70s now. And do they still believe in Noah’s Ark. Oh yeah yeah. They still take all that literally. How can a grown adult believe that and come to live. Well I live in southern Indiana Kentucky just across the river and go to Kentucky and I think that’s where the that’s where the Ark Encounter is. Oh Ken Ham yeah yeah yeah that’s all that’s just yeah in the state across the river. Yeah. You know I mean it’s you know I think if you’re if you’re taught that from birth and you’re you know a bible literalists then you know you you have the faith to allow those things to be you know faith isn’t something that I can just have anymore. I live more of an evidence based life. But yeah I think that’s that’s how how people get around it. And I think that there are people who clearly you know need it on some level emotionally and maybe they don’t need you know the ark specifically but you know like you said about your dad. He I think it was your dad. I don’t I don’t want somebody in your family you know had that PTSD. And my grandfather your grandfather. There you go. And I think you know things get introduced because you know in doing this podcast so far I’ve talked to a lot of people who you know when you start getting into their stories it seems like you know the nexus of somebody joining the witnesses in the first place is some sort of trauma right. And then they are looking for certainty and they find something that will provide them that certainty.

[01:12:40] It may not be necessarily evidence but evidence based certainty sometimes doesn’t give people what they need or what they want and they just don’t know how to work through their stuff and then they give birth to people who are born into this and man when you’re taught it from the time you’re a kid it’s it’s really tough to work your way through. Yeah yeah. I mean now to me. Well it’s pretty much the fact that word faith means to believe something without any evidence of it. You know now I’m 34 and I’ve had a hell of a lot of education because I went out and saw it. I have a lot of street education and I I did make a lot of friends a I know a lot of people have a hard time with that and I know why. I still am not very confident myself but I have to do it. So basically I’m 34 and I’m more educated than my parents will ever be. And I just have a hard time. Like everywhere else go. Well you know I would say that you know you are the type of person that has this curiosity. And when I’m listening to you it makes me think of the people who you’re more like an adventurer. You’re a person who has that spirit in them where you have this thirst for knowledge you have this thirst to it. You’re an explorer. There you go you’re an explorer. And I don’t. Not everybody is an explorer. You know naturally not everybody is kind of naturally wired that way.

[01:14:31] And for some people it’s you know find a place and live there your whole life and never change much for other people it’s you know you got to go. There had to be somebody who went and explored things and were those you know pioneers back in the day and and not witness pioneers. I mean real pioneers. Yeah I actually did something. Yeah I guess that was my point. My foundation I feel it is built on on concrete now. It was made much when I left the Joves witnesses. But I’m always since a little kid. That’s why I went into construction for a while. I’d like to know how things work and I want to know actually how it works not how you think it works. I want to see it work and that’s how applied life and how we look at the universe. And I think jobs what is there and pretty much like every other religion they’re just trying to answer questions that probably don’t have an answer and they feel it gives them a false sense of pride that they know everything that’s happening in the universe. They have all the answers and it just I figured out at 15 that this is bullshit. Yeah if it’s difficult to take the perspective of others that try to figure out you know why they why they are where they are sometimes. Now let’s not think why my parents are in it. So do Evers. So I was going to ask you you know so it sounds like are you officially out. Are you like this you know like or you. Are you still technically a witness. Are you disfellowshipped.

[01:16:30] They’re just kind of wondering you know. From the perspective of like you know is there a narrative out there as to where why you left. You know is there a file on me. Yeah yeah yeah. Do people. Why would people think that you left. Do you ever go back and see any of those people. Are they still friendly to you. Or do they kind of see you a certain way. I mean I was baptized at 12. And as far as I know I still am. We had an elders meeting when they realized that for a period of time that this all happened very quickly. But I had stopped wanting to get out of the car or go knock on doors and cause that stirred up hours as they forced me to go in service work. I wouldn’t get out the car so I had an elders meeting and I basically decided you know how things were going to go. And they sat me down they tried to talk me out of it and trying to reason with the Bible. And even then the Bible was when I had the issue with the entire book so and the others me and they were trying to read scriptures to me and like what that book is when I have a problem with that and I don’t recognize your authority. And I did pretty much just walked out and they had this like hilarious stunned look on their face and I didn’t resign. I don’t think I was disfellowshipped I never sent a formal letter like Michael Jackson did to disassociate myself from the neighborhood book club.

[01:18:02] I just kind of thought this was all made up and like a book club and just walked away. Yeah. A I don’t know if they’d just fellowship me or an office. I don’t really have any communication with anybody. I grew up with law. Does that include you or your family. Do you have any communication with them anymore or is that just kind of after that last incident. Is that kind of just the end of it. Okay that happened probably well for now there have been about six years ago. I probably talked to them. I talked my down on the phone once and my mom said probably in six years for text messages. So yeah I don’t think they even know what I do for a living. No. Yeah sorry. I just I don’t know. I don’t really care. It’s to me it is like the Boy Scouts or something. Now doesn’t doesn’t apply anymore. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. You’ve grown beyond that. Yeah. Is there anything that you would like people that have never been witnesses to know about it that you think they might not know about my departure or just about Jehovah’s Witnesses in general I mean they they tell you not to make worldly friends they came up with this word worldly and they steering away from science for a reason. And that is because it pokes holes in what they want you to believe. They want to keep this pact together. And anybody who started I would say feed that you know learn things for yourself go through experiences. And it’s good to have a support group.

[01:20:12] I was kind of unfortunate when I left and immediately found other Jehovah’s Witnesses to be friends with. You know I kind of thought I didn’t become atheist. It took a long time. A lot of research to come to that conclusion. So I thought maybe Jehovah led me into a group of other jobs as well as kids. And it was one of the worst things that happened to me because we’re all deficient in the same areas. We all suffer the same thing. So what you need to do is if you’re looking to live is to meet people who have no idea what the Jehovah’s Witnesses are because they’re going to be strong in the areas that you need to learn about. And you know it’s hard to make friends. What you have to be if you don’t have a family anymore you need to make one. I have a huge family now. I don’t have any blood family but I have a family that spans the United States that someone has always been there and it helped me when I fell down the aisle. I live in a house now and I’m okay. But it was other people that helped me get there. You know when you when you’re thinking about leaving the Jehovah’s Witnesses people are scared to leave the support group that they have there. But you have the potential to make a much bigger one. What a much more rounded group of people. Is that the end of the world. You just have to go out n generally people are good. Of course there’s bad people out there who are going to learn that too to avoid that.

[01:21:52] But usually the red flags come up pretty quick and you want to avoid those people that make friends that are that are strong good people and you know don’t be a mooch but they’re just tell them your story has pretty much to this day if I is they’ll tell people how I grew up. They’re shocked by it and they’re interested in and they want to talk to you and figure out why this is a thing that happens. I 100 percent agree. And I think that that is a very important point about telling your story and not just because I had to pay Castro I help people. But yeah I mean first of all that’s being vulnerable and allowing yourself to be vulnerable to others which people respect. Second of all you know I think we all are taught we’re all told as witnesses not to share our story we’re told to keep quiet about it all. That if you’re going to walk away at least keep your mouth shut. And that’s another thing that they tell us that’s a self-fulfilling prophecy because they know if we go out into this world and we don’t tell anybody our stories then it’s going to be easier for the witnesses to keep the reputation that they want instead of what is actually true. And then it’s also going to be more difficult for you to actually connect to anybody because I mean I tell people my story I mean you don’t want to just say you know there’s a time and place for it.

[01:23:25] You don’t want to overwhelm people or Oh or or take over things but if you bring up the subject and people are interested then tell them because they want to know and you know it’s a way for people to get to know each other. Stories have been an important part of human history since day you know for a long time. So right. I mean anyone raised Jehovah’s Witness does have good quality. I think that’s the whole point of religion in the first place. It’s a vessel to understand morality which are generally good people so there’s no reason why you can’t go out and make friends. But yeah I think it’s funny that you said you know they tell people to keep their mouth shut when they leave. Isn’t that something a rapist would say. Oh yeah absolutely. Or someone who is molesting kids or whatever. Yes. Yeah. They tell you keep your mouth shut don’t tell anybody. I mean it’s so abusive. So what was that as human pack animals as human beings you know we need to go out and make friendships and yeah we all need to find our tribe somewhere right. So where are you now in your journey. Well I you know it took me 20 years to recover from from this upbringing. And then the breaking of the rubber band. I mean I really I really made a mess of my entire 20s and I’m finally say I’m 34 I feel like I’m 24. Now back to being single but I know I finally have it I’m okay. I have a place to live a job.

[01:25:12] It is really hard to sit down and write out everything that happened that that’s really when everything came together for me and I know I was where and I don’t really notice I was that bad of an alcoholic and drug abuser until I wrote it down it and then oh man I really got to stop that. When he had the right motivation. I was able to do it pretty much overnight. Yeah. And especially the motivation that they expect me to fail. So now I have this motivation it’s like a fire on my ass that then till now I’ve basically accepted that they want me to fail. And it almost killed me like I pretty much tried to kill myself in my 20s slowly. You have this like guilt that lives in the back you that you feel bad for even exploring your own life. They kind of build this prison in your own mind that you live in and because it follows you around in Nowheresville educated by I’m trying to approach life with this information and I really feel like I’m just starting now. I look forward to the rest of it. That’s awesome. Me Now you have the chance to make it what you want instead of what you know they wanted it to be for you like your dad said you know when he was yanking you out of that girl’s house you know this isn’t the life I want for my son. Well you know what Dad. It’s not your life right. You don’t get to decide how other people live and who they are. So I’m glad that you’re getting the chance now to decide that for yourself. Is there anything that you’ve learned that you know specifically has really impacted your life for the better.

[01:27:14] I mean you know beyond maybe science or whatever but is there anything that you’ve learned about yourself or just about people or whatever that that has really made your life better. Yeah just from the social aspect of of human beings n being able to do is see my 20s as as a whole what I’m really concerned with. Now when I left the Jehovah’s Witnesses I was terrified of even talking about it. It was like almost seeing a spider for a while. I don’t want to even think about it. And I think that’s why I did so many drugs and things in my 20s and I think it’s important. I’ve actually bumped into some Jehovah’s witnesses that are in their 20s now and have decided to leave like months ago. So I feel like I’ll get this opportunity to kind of help them to not make the mistakes I did. I know a lot of people who have just like yourself sprang just just went crazy as soon as they left and I think they’re what you’re doing is a good thing. You know we’re a support group because basically our parents had stopped raising us. And we need somebody there to help steer us through this world. You know I’m just on that journey now trying to help other people and not do the things I did because it ended up really bad for me. So I went to jail like I overdosed and it took me about ten years after that overdose to really be able to remember to retain any memories. Do to form any new memories and I don’t want that to happen to other people.

[01:29:20] And it’s funny you know witnesses would say Well yeah cause she went to jail and jail and ended up on drugs. I mean look at you you’re in the world now. You’re right. It’s not because of the world it’s because of them. Exactly it is not. That is not the world or my experience in the world that put me in jail or made me overdose. It’s my experience with Vemma that did it. They set me up this way. They set me up to fail as soon as I left. I had no tools. Yeah. So well you know I know that you know you’ve talked a lot about you know some of the mistakes you’ve made and things like that which I think is awesome because you know it helps others to maybe avoid some of the other similar mistakes. But what do you what do you enjoy. You know paint a picture for me what do you enjoy about your new life. You know as you see it now. What are you what are you looking for in your new life. What are your plans. What are you up to now. What’s good man. Well like I said I’ve kind of become this pillar of strength that these young people have just come out. It was totally inadvertent. But like I said I like to help people like to work on boats. I still like to see how things work. And I like to write. I just love how much there is to know me. Variety is the spice of life. It can’t be overstated. But you also have to approach variety with moderation.

[01:30:53] You can’t go crazy on any one thing or it’s going to hurt you. Variety is everywhere in the universe. It’s a keener balance. You have to take a variety of classes in college for a reason you know to get a degree in one field. You have to eat a balanced diet. Finding and experiencing that variety is the fun in life. You know like Mark Twain’s travels fail all bigotry. So it’s failed ignorance. Learn everything you can. I’m a jack of so many trades and the pursuit of knowledge. It’s the whole point of life and the key to doing that safely is moderation which I didn’t know in my 20s. What I learned the hard way. Well that’s cool. Do you have any anything that you’re anything specifically that you’re wanting to do. Coming up having gone for like 17 years or something but I’m in a new place in life. Or you know I’m planning on trying to approach people and not be so scared of talking about it like seeing a spider. So I plan on kind of going down a path or more in helping where I can help kids like me who didn’t have anything to look forward to when they left. You know I was raised preaching to other people. I just the subject has changed. That’s all. I like that.

[01:32:32] I mean there are there are real serious issues that we do need to work out and I think serious things that that could use a little preaching that people need to take seriously like tangible things like our our planet where we’re destroying and that there’s just a lot of issues that need to be dealt with instead of dealing with fanatical religion that affects everyone’s home. We share this. So I agree and it’s the difference between you know Jehovah’s Witnesses would tell you that that essentially there is no hope for this planet other than you know what God is going to bring. And you know through they have absolved themselves essentially of much responsibility today because they can just say well you know God’s got it I don’t have to worry about any of this stuff. I don’t have to help anywhere participate in anything or you know do anything that actually you know a lot of them unfortunately then even can even get to the point where they just don’t they just to do things that harm the earth because they just don’t care. But yeah I mean Jehovah’s Witnesses they’re just pretty much one and I think there’s like 33000 plus different variations of Christianity alone. I mean there just one. And we’ve spent all this time shedding on our home planet while we look to the next life you know like our time here is temporary. That’s a horrible way to look at it because generation after generation is coming along you know and meanwhile we have this thing religion that helped us understand our morality. But it I don’t think it’s doing us any good anymore. We know why we need morality and we’ve we’ve banned contraceptives in different religions and now we’re overpopulated. We’ve crossed the tutelary threshold. And we’re looking at serious problems if we don’t do something fast for our planet. I think that’s the things we need to worry about.

[01:35:02] I agree I agree wholeheartedly and I think it’s great that you know now that you’re out you can you can focus on those things you can focus on you know living your own life helping other people and doing things that actually matter today instead of pushing it all off into the future and I think that’s great. Thanks. Just first proof that it rips families apart and life is too short. Enough already not to have a fair start at it. I just just want that to end. I agree. Well is there anything that. Is there anything that I didn’t ask you that you wanted to say or anything. Well as far as as far as my parents and everything you know I’m pretty critical of them. But at this rate they’re in there in their 70s and even though I am critical of the way they they they raise me. It was what they were taught to do. And I don’t really harbor any ill will against them I do against their religion. You know I’ve actually you know wrote this book about growing up and why it’s so important to leave and it’s going to be for sale on Amazon like next week and I don’t even want them to know about it. I don’t want to hear this podcast haha. At this point they’re in their 70s and if they if they did realize they would look back on an entire life of missed opportunities and I think that they don’t have much time left and I see that you know as I don’t want to be like that. No I understand.

[01:36:46] It’s like if you wake up somebody that is in you know that is in advanced age. Then you wake them up to the realities of what their life has been and they look back on a wasted life will destroy them. Yeah it easily could. Especially because it is their whole social circle. It’s somebody who has their identity it’s a lot of times they’ve you know I think about my mom you know my dad died you know at this point you know the resurrection hope. I’m sure she’s holding on to that. And you know I don’t I don’t want to take that away from somebody. You know a lot of times you know witnesses this is like to vilify us you know quote apostates or whatever they want to call us as people who are just out to ruin their fun or whatever. But the reality is that if you talk to most of us you know I don’t want to take somebodies faith away from them. I don’t want you to put your faith on me. You know I’m not here to take your faith away. If you ask me questions then I should be able to answer them without you freaking out because you ask the question or otherwise don’t ask and that’s fine. We don’t have to discuss the subject of spirituality the Bible any of that we can. There are so many other things in life to discuss. But you know most of us we don’t want to destroy other people’s lives and their faiths and things like that. You know we’re not trying to hurt anybody they are doing the same thing that we do.

[01:38:34] We thought we were doing when we were Jehovah’s Witnesses and we want to help people yeah want to help them see. Yeah. And only now we actually are helping people. Right. You know like I think about you know how many people have reached out since I started my podcast last year and have said you know that I was able to help them in some way. When I was a witness I knocked on doors I mean I pioneered at that point I knocked on doors for 90 hours a month. Yeah and I never helped a person with anything. No company yeah yeah yeah I guess a bought old ladies in houses who you know would invite you in. That was that was it. We never really truly made anybody’s life better and now I hear from people who have been able to help in some way. I thank Jason for reaching out and for being willing to tell his story if you’d like to hear more. Like I said he’s written a book entitled “worldly – how not to escape a cult”. So again that’s “Worldly – How not to escape a cult”. The book was just released on Amazon as a paperback or even as a Kindle version. Jason has a heart to help and he wants to help others know kind of keep them from making some of the same mistakes that he made. You know we’re given so few tools to deal with reality when we grow up in the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

[01:40:09] And hopefully his book can help some not to learn some of the lessons the hard way like he did feel free to go to shunnedpodcast.com and leave a comment for Jason on the episode’s page for his episode. You can follow the show on YouTube my channel called shunnedpodcast. Again that’s one word and you can get my personal videos there is vidcast as well. You can also find us on Instagram and Twitter as shunnedpodcast. And my wife handles those channels for the show. You can also help the show by leaving a review on iTunes. It really means a lot to me. You can also support the show financially at Patreon.com/shunned for as little as a dollar a month. I count on the support there to help me pay for things like the transcripts that I put up on the site to help attract more traffic and listeners those listeners are people that are needing and hopefully finding help as well. And you know this is the way we’re all in this. We can all help in some way. You can hear my story at the high caste called This JW Life if you haven’t already. Our theme music is by fair voyeur who is also a former witness in the song is entitled No hell yet. The next episode’s going to be out at the beginning of September it will feature Sydney and other former J-dub. And she has an interesting story. I actually got to meet her for the first time at an apostafest just over a week ago and while we were there I went ahead and did some many interviews that I was going to add to her episode.

[01:41:41] Well it just so happened that I got so much good concept from those many interviews that I’m going to release them separately as yet another bonus episode. So you can look forward to that. She come out after Sydney’s episode. And I’ve got lots of good things coming up. But for now let’s end this the right way love others do no harm and go be happy.

Kacey Is Shunned By Jehovah’s Witnesses

[00:00:41] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we expose the high control religions that you shunning as a tool to control people. Today’s episode is personal to me. It features somebody that I know that I knew in my own congregation when I was growing up and it shows the damage that can be done through the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses you’re going to see how the cults and the culture around an in it can really steal a person’s life. Of course you’re also going to get to see how a person can come back from the depths of despair and find happiness in life. Kacey is telling this story even though it could have some ramifications for her personally as she’s taking a stand today. So many people have been hurt by this cold. And lives are ruined or even destroyed at times. And it may be that we all have that point in time where we are we know we have to take a stand for truth. You know I remember being a kid and there was a relative of cases that was out knocking on doors with my mom in field service. I remember my mom coming back to the car and telling us how bold her relative was because something she said at the door she told the woman well ma’am sometimes the truth hurts. And you know we all thought that was so great. Oh you know how witty that she told this lady in response to some objection the lady had to something she had said that you know that sometimes the truth hurts.

[00:02:14] Well you know who would have thought that so many years down the road we would have all found that out to be true. The truth hurts Jehovah’s Witnesses that would listen to this would be agitated by it. And why. Because the truth hurts this podcast and others like it hurt them. Why. Because it’s the truth. And they’d rather hide behind convenient lies having their ears tickled as they used to say and they aren’t concerned with actual truth but rather with the truth. Their religion so let’s hearK.S. story learn about her life and how it was impacted by growing up as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. My name is Kacey. I am 34 years old. I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I am shunned. All right. So then how did you come to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the first place. How are you. When I was about 2 or 3 years old my mom started studying with the witnesses. So I don’t really remember anything but going to the Kingdom Hall when being a Jehovah’s Witness have like some spotty memories. I remember riding a tricycle when I was about three years old and my mom and dad telling me that my my dad had bought that for me for my third birthday. But I don’t remember like ever celebrating any holidays or anything. I don’t remember that being a birthday party. I just remember having a go Red Tricycle. I am my man and my and my uncle and their mom my grandmother they had all studied with the witnesses at random times in their lives. I know my mom studied English.

[00:04:00] She was about 14 or 15 she studied and went to meetings for a while but she didn’t really take. You know there was no commitment made there when they were younger. That didn’t come until until my mom started studying when I was about two or three years old. How old do you think she was then when she started studying again for the second time. Probably around my age and in her 30s and so there is a pretty big gap there. Yeah yeah like 15 20 year gap. Yeah it’s kind of amazing how you know once you’re exposed to the religion it kind of seems to stick with you even if you get away from it like that you know she was just the kid she studied but yet you know here you know decades later it is coming back into her life. Yeah and one thing about my mom is she went through some trauma with my brothers and a guy that she had dated. And at the point in her life when the sister knocked on our daughter when I was 2 I really think my mom was just looking for something to cling to and see this was familiar because she had already started it for a while when she was younger. So in her mind I think that like Gyges came full circle because no Jehovah was trying to lead her back or something. I mean I never really ask her a lot about is she. She won’t talk about any of the trauma that she’d variant so that she saw my own personal life per statute perspective I guess. Oh no no no that makes total sense. I think a lot of people are attracted to the religion because it’s a sense of surety.

[00:05:51] It’s a prescribed path that you can take in. And you know you can hand over traumas and things like that to something that you perceive is bigger than you. So I can definitely understand why that would happen. So then you were pretty young and it doesn’t go back many generations. You know just to your grandmother who studied later in life as well as for you what did it mean to you back then. You were a kid growing up in it. Well it was confusing. My life was really confusing. My dad was raised Catholic and very very strictly opposed to my mother’s studying with the witnesses. My dad’s family is the type of family that while they love each other they put most of the focus on their family time around holidays. So you’re talking Christmas Thanksgiving Easter. Those will be like big times for my dad’s family to get together and then they probably quinsy each other for the months in between the holidays. So it was really hard for my dad to accept that my mom was converting to this religion where there were no holidays there were no birthdays. She spent so much time away from home. And he was really oppose like I remember as a child my family dynamic especially around Christmas for the week before Christmas the week of in the week after my parents barely spoke. My dad would just kind of walk past us like we weren’t even there. Jelic he was really really upset about it it caused a lot of arguments in fighting between Hilsey. My mom stood firm because that’s what she was told to do.

[00:07:52] And my dad stood firm because he he was a momma’s boy Matt my dad and his brothers were just raised father mom. They never had their dad so he would have done anything to to keep his mom happy. You know he didn’t want his mom to think badly of him so. So you know and that’s the way he was raised he went to Catholic high schools. So it’s just something that that was I guess probably their one of their biggest arguments and something that tore them apart for many many years when I was a child and other than that. Growing up as a Jehovah’s Witness in school was horrible. Look I hated it. I wanted to be like the other kids. I’ve always been like a little bit of an awkward childhood. I have older brothers. I’ve always been more like I’ve always been to rock music in metal like me my brothers my two older brothers are eight and 12 years older than I am. And so when my mom and dad were at work they would babysit me and it would just be like a party BAM you know we were like a lot the Pantera and Slayer and you know they’re smoking cigarettes out the back door and I see this and I just like my brothers you’re so cool. Her hair oh is like the awkward you know I wasn’t the cheerleader or the ANC. You know I was I was the captain of the safety patrol at my alma mater. I’d rather get a total book worm like I. People didn’t like me so I decided I didn’t like people.

[00:09:38] They all made fun of me because I was a Jehovah’s Witness because of course on those first days of school when I have to go to my teacher and say hey here’s you know here’s this chapter pamphlet on why I can’t salute the flag. And my mom sends letters saying make sure that she goes to the library if there any holiday celebrations or birthday celebrations you have to you know single her out and take her to the library. So that was my life books. Yes. So that’s what I did which is bury myself in books. Makes sense you got to escape. You know. However you can try to find your place. Yeah. So then that’s what it was like at school. What about at home what was your life like at home growing up. You said a little bit about you know being babysat by your your brothers. Now your brothers. Were they witnesses at that time. My older brothers never got baptized into the religion. My they are not my dad’s biological children but you would never know because my dad adopted them like he loves those boys. You know they call him dad. He says those are his sons are but they weren’t. They were older I guess my mom just didn’t enforce it on them the same way she did us because they rebelled a little bit. And while they would go to the meetings they they were never in it. You know what I mean. They were like physically and mentally out from the beginning they just weren’t buying it. They were too old. They were already into their own things.

[00:11:17] And so I just think that my man put more emphasis on me because I was young enough that she could raise me up right in it. You know as my she couldn’t so and then my brothers asked so both of them fell in love and got a girl pregnant at a very young age. My oldest brother I think he had his first daughter when he was 16 hour seven. I think I was four when she was born. And then my second oldest brother when he was 15 and had been seeing a girl who was 21 and got her pregnant. Oh yeah and that was like a huge scandal and you know he wanted to do the right thing. So at age 16 when their child was born a baby even got married right before. My nephew was born but he moved out. You know when he was like 15 and started going to term I can’t remember what the name of the high school is. You work half a day and you go to school half a day. So it’s like a co-op type thing. Yeah. No. He could he could. And they lived together and raised their child. For me my I have a younger brother who he has some mental and physical limitations. He has autism and cerebral palsy and so most of the focus in my house was really put on him. So I was just kind of a I was expected to just do the right thing like I wasn’t allowed to mess up as a kid like it wasn’t acceptable for me to just do things that kids do.

[00:13:10] I kind of had to learn to always be mature and always realize that my little brother comes first. Now as an adult. Of course he comes first because he has. Of course he comes first you know he has a scar here and he uses a lot of a lot of need. Yeah. And it’s now I understand. But as a child I was just starved for like I wanted attention. So I would get really hyper and go out and run around and no I wasn’t always that way. I remember a time where I would just like sit on the floor coloring book all day color for hours. Other than that my my dad was an alcoholic and so he was very abusive. He was very verbally and emotionally abusive. And as I got older I don’t want to say he was physically abusive like he beat me every day. But if he came home and it had enough to drink and that I didn’t do it. There was like a couple dishes left in the sink. I was I was catching one to my backside for sure and my dad is a very big man and I honestly don’t think that in his sober mind he would have ever done anything like that. But it made for a very like tumultuous childhood and kind of walking on eggshells. I never knew if my dad was going to be drunk when he came home or not or what was going to happen. It caused a lot of anxiety and I just remember having a really confusing child as far as know not where I belong.

[00:14:58] Sounds very confusing I mean it on the one hand you have you have the religious divide between Jehovah’s Witnesses and Catholicism and you know the obvious rift that that caused you know around holidays and just different factions of the family and then you’ve got you know you’re your own person and you’re trying to make it. But you know at school you’re you’re ostracized because you’re one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and then you’re your dad. This he’s got his own issues. And I’m sure that made you feel very isolated there even at home. So yeah it would be hard to to feel like you fit in. Did you did you feel like so then what about at the Keenum Hall. Did you feel like you fit in there. How was life. And you know as a child there in the church you know I never had never felt like I. Well most of the girls there were actually growing up in that hall a decent amount of kids that were around my age guys and girls. And so there were plenty of girls for me to go to their house or whatever or spend time late or play with their call my friend. However my dad was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and most of their guards were there guards were elders. And like I said I was always kind of like a weird cheerleader and aquatinted I didn’t really follow the dress code you know how old it was. It was rough. There were times where I’m the I’m OK.

[00:16:50] So one instance I can remember is that when I was about 12 I had been invited to a summer party for the girls in my congregation and I was so excited because I thought there you know the tide is turning white things are going to change I’m going to have friends I’ll actually have somebody that I can talk to and not not thought they wanted me there. We give them get there. It’s really I’m super nervous because I don’t know how to act in front of other girls. I was raised with boys. And you know as as a Jehovah’s Witness you don’t get to play with other kids so you go to school with you don’t get to play with kids in your neighborhood or I didn’t see them some day but I never got to do those things. The only girls that I had in my wife were my cousins and they were both very tomboyish just like I was. So I didn’t know how to mix with girls who were girly and did their hair and painted their nails. So we go to this summer party and were in the basement of one of the girls grandmothers and so the girl that was hosting this sleepover look set me at some point during the night and says you know the only reason you’re here is because my grandma was going to cancel my summer party if I didn’t invite you. That’s welcoming. Yes. I just wanted like I just pretty much sat in the corner by myself for the rest of the night. Fighting back tears because I didn’t want to let them know that it got to me and I so wanted their acceptance. You know I just wanted to be a part of and am and that hurt you both in their work.

[00:18:49] There were a few other times where they would have sleepovers invite me but then it’s always in the back of my head that the only reason I’m here is because somebody whose mom forced them to invite me. So then they would try it. They should preempt this by saying s I was drawing we had some issues in our house as well. Jehovah’s Witnesses would not say your house is haunted they would just say like you have demons or you brought an item into your house that had a demon has attached you or whatever. We had a really really crazy things that were happening in our house. My dad he got punched like in in the face one night and there was nobody there. He he had a fist. He had physical marks on his body from being attacked. Mike my toys would move all around. I had a teddy ruxpin doll and he would open and close his eyes and move his head in his arms. You know it was really scary. Elder Kivy dolphin Yeah yeah it was a creep. My parents actually took one back to the store and exchange shit for another one because they thought it was just a some sort of malfunction of the toy. Right. And it still happened with the excellence the elders of the congregation even came to our house. Unlike a shepherding girl and we had to throw out everything that we had and start over and paint the walls in like do all this crazy stuff that I didn’t understand why I had a hearing on my voice. I think has made you do that that was their suggestion. Yes.

[00:20:38] And yet that was their suggestion was that you know we get rid of everything because you know my mom went to their stores Nazo a lot. We weren’t rich just you know grown up. So they the only explanation that they had was that someone had either been practicing like witchcraft or demonic spiritualistic ritual isn’t something that that we had bought from this yard sale or thrift store had had been attached by a demon or something. I was I was young when it happened. But I do remember we have had talks about this family night. And you know there’s no there’s no like haunting or evil energy. You either got angels demons away to help us when this really did. Pretty much everything’s on the mend. So if you’re not emitting them the following year you know it’s Sunday best of the Bible you’re here. So I’m Bega. That was their suggestion was that we get rid of all these games that we painted the walls. I mean a lot of things. My dad got rid of every art read he had just a lot of things that they said could be a channel for these demonic whatever. So the girls at the hall they would.

[00:22:06] Two of them their dads were elders and I remember them asking me about this one time when I was at one of their houses they were asking me about the demons in my house and I was just kind of like glad they wanted to talk to me so I’m telling them this crazy stuff that’s happened and then they turn on me they’re like oh well I don’t want to be around you you scare me that those stories are scary and then they went back to their elder father’s who is probably who they got the information from in the virtual to say because they shouldn’t have even known that that information that’s all supposed to be confidential. Exactly. And they tell one little girl told her dad that I was telling them about stories of demons and that I wouldn’t stop talking about it and that I was scaring her. So they made me go home. And like I didn’t bring it up and come here to see what they did. But that’s just like that’s just how the dynamic between me and the other ladies at the Kingdom Hall when I was younger it was not a good you know it wasn’t right Father Yeah I would have much rather hang out with the guys in our congregation because I did get along with them but that is inappropriate. You know you’re not allowed to have male friends unless you’re trying to marry one of them and then you don’t even really get to know each other until after you’ve married this person there’s no courting it’s almost arranged in a way. So I was homeschooled starting in middle school as well. Was that to get you so that made my wife. You there to get you away from like worldly influences at school or something. Yeah just tighter grip on you. Yes. And my parents had also. They had also taken custody of my cousin which is a whole other story but it’s a different chapter and they’re taking custody of my my male cousin and and he was like a brother to me.

[00:24:21] You know we had grown up together and had at her grandmother’s house we were very close to me and my cousins my parents are taking Kersee of him. So he had a really really bad ETG like he was very hyper he couldn’t pay attention to anything. He had really bad learning disabilities and school so my mom maybe she could take a leave from work and home school the both of us. And so that’s what she did. So it worked for me. I can’t on really quickly it did not work so well for my kids. So they let you know they were better off as a person who is a little bit HD myself. Self-learning in that kind of environment without structure could be very difficult. Yes. Yeah. And you know I’m almost a working part time so sometimes she would just give us our assignments and say finish season more go over the answers when you’re down. And so I ended up helping him and teaching him more than my mom did an extent because we were there together all the time. So and I caught on I’m a pretty bright person I’m I’m fairly intelligent and I got good grades anyway so. So it was fine. But you know it it was hard to keep up with my schoolwork and math when my mom had to go back to where her my dad were both working full time. And I’m trying to you know take care of my little brother who has his disabilities.

[00:26:13] And from about the age of 12 until I moved out that was you know my responsibility was to get my brother his medicine because he had to have special medicines certain times of the day or he would have seizures and put him on the bus make sure he got off the bus make sure he had snacks make sure you know he was clean and then in the summertime when he was on summer break he was my responsibility full time at the law to put on a kid. Yeah it is. I don’t remember ever being on time though honestly that I regretted that because I left my brother. And you know I would do anything for him. He is he’s like my kid in a lot of ways. He’s here you know because we were so close growing up and then you know to take care of him the way that I did. I never regretted any of that. I never had any resentments towards him because of that. It just made me grow up so fast that I feel like I missed out on a huge portion of my life. We’re just caught up with me in later years. So it wasn’t. It was not resuming towards him so much as it was towards my parents because they put me in this situation where they said oh you’re mature enough and you’re you’re strong enough and you’re smart enough to handle this. You know we wouldn’t give you the responsibility. We think you could handle it. But as a child at 12 years old it was like I was in the same house every day I felt trapped. You know what do I do. I can’t go anywhere I’m not allowed to sit on my front porch and even talk to the neighbors.

[00:28:12] You know I hear a kid go to the girls at the Keenum hall and have fun with them. I have nowhere to go. They’re very isolated you know they’re isolated. Yes. So then you know I’m just thinking you’re trying to you’re living this life which sounds pretty busy for a 12 year old. And at that same time you know being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses that means that you probably had other things you had to do too. So how did the burden of being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses or privileges they would see it. How did that impact you. You know growing up going to meetings and field service and knocking on doors studying all those things that you had to do. How did that fit into your life. What was your experience with that. Yeah. As a child I was a I was excited at first as as a young child to go out in the field service ministry. And it was fine. I thought you know when I was like them ages four five six I could read at the age of three so that was always a good selling point. My mom was taking me to the doors. I could read really well so have me reading scripture. These people would just be like oh she’s the most adorable little thing you know. I guess these little girls aren’t do great but if literature. So you know we would rehearse those things and I liked it. As I got older know obviously I think a lot of people feel this way even those who are still in the religion.

[00:30:07] They think they kind of you start looking for it to go out and vote 030. You know I became an unbaptized publisher and I started to you know give the little presentations that the sisters are allowed to give on the stage or that they used to be allowed to care. Not sure how that works anymore. I wanted to get baptized. I thought that that would fix everything. And at the age of twelve I was already being shy and to an extent in my congregation because the girls in my heart had said you know that I was too worldly and that now it’s not not like them. So I don’t really have a lot of friends. Anyway I was already isolated and I thought if I get baptized maybe it’ll it’ll make some these expectations easier and people will like me more. You know it’s a way of proving yourself exactly. So I started to study the questions and go over that. And in October of 1996 oddly I was baptized at a special assembly. How were you then. I had just turned 13. Go to 13 in September and I was baptized not so and now of course like I said before I was really good at reading and comprehending so of course some made it sound like I really knew what I was answering those questions. And you know when that’s when the elders talk to you about your commitment I really sounded like I was serious about it. Oh yeah we all did because we all we all knew what we needed to do what we needed to say. You know in order to make that happen. Exactly.

[00:32:15] And you know even if you didn’t know exactly what you needed to say there was somebody that was more than willing to coach you in to it as long as it meant you were assigned in your name on the dotted line. Mike you are by your name because you were baptized witness outright. Yeah. That they weren’t going to let you slide. It is kind of funny. Did they ever turn anyone away because they kind of do sometimes but eventually they always get everybody in. Yeah yeah they do. They do. So I got baptized in here and I started to pray here because I was homeschooled so at one my brother was in school and the bus would come to get him and then a sister from the Keenum Hall would come to pick me up and take me out and service them. So I would go out and service three to four days a week and so it gave me something to do. I wasn’t stuck in the house all day. And so that was it gave me something to do. However I feel like I probably in hindsight in retrospect used that more as like a social hour because I was just so desperate to have somebody to talk to. And so I didn’t really take it serious enough. And there was a brother in the hall at one point at we were at we always would break at McDonald’s and we were at McDonald’s and early in the day it was him his wife another sister and me in the car.

[00:33:53] And I had I was hungry really hungry and I was like What time is it you know could we go to McDonald’s yet. And I had said something a couple times about Hungary. And when we got to McDonnel as this father pulls me aside and says to me if you’re just going out until service of somebody or buy you a meal at McDonald’s you can’t go out with me anymore so don’t ask me or my wife to pick you up for service anymore like it was. It was pretty innocuous just like I mean I’m just I told him just to take me home at that point. And you know mom actually my mom was really upset that he would say that to me and she went to the brothers I don’t know whatever came of it honestly. I had to really put some thought into remembering this much of my childhood because I know some some PTSD. Jack it’s really cool. My memory is just I know I don’t have long memories. They’re very spotty. I remember circumstances like the atmosphere that I was in bed. It’s really hard for me to remember specific things so all the things we talk about then talk about that atmosphere what what was it like what was your feeling. You know just what were you feeling as a as a kid and all this. What was it like for you. I mean I was miserable like like I said my whole life was just one situation after another of me trying to find where I fit in. You’re trying to find my place. So that was a really miserable place to be. And at the time when I was when I had got baptized.

[00:35:43] I was not aware that I was suffering from a disorder that causes me to repressed memories from your childhood trauma. And so all of this is starting to come online at the same time and I’m sorry to have flashbacks of these things that happened to me when I was a child that I didn’t remember before that. So I’m just I’m I’m miserable but I don’t know how to cope I don’t know anything to do except to just keep going out until there is you. A study in my Bible and keep you know I’m at this point I really was legit. I really did want to be a spiritual person. Have you had a reason to want to be you know just like you open this talking about your mom and how she had these traumas and then there’s this religion comes full circle that comes back to her and she sees that as a way to maybe fix her problems. Well here you are as a kid with no tools. I mean what what 12 13 year old kid has the tools to over overcome and cope with all this stuff and then you think you’re going to get baptized and you know Jehovah’s Holy Spirit is going to rain down like a dove upon you and you could fix all your problems. I’m about do you know. Right. Right. Of course. And those are the things that they they tell you you know they tell you this stuff that’s part of the sales pitch to get you to take that step. So you know here you are.

[00:37:18] Now you know the lonely depressed little girl and you’ve got trauma coming back you know in these flashbacks and you had every reason to think that you know just doubling down on whatever you were doing quote spiritually in the organization was going to fix everything and you desperately probably needed that at that time. Yeah. And you know not to mention the Elderts any time that I would go to them or seek counseling. That’s what they told me to do. Surround yourself into that you know you need yet more hours talk to more people tried so Bible study read your Bible mosque and be more embodied in the appropriate ministry support. You know you do things like clean the keyboard to launch an offer to help older sisters at the whole year. You’re selfish and you’re not doing enough. You know so that was my issue. They made me feel like everything that happened to me was my fault you know and that I’m not good enough. So so why not heap that burden on a child that you know you have somebody who is clearly hurting already and then tell them you’re not good enough because you’re not regular in cleaning the Keenum hall or something stupid like that. You know it’s the last thing you needed at that point in your life I’m sure was a culture of an organisation that just beats people down yeah works. And you know some people I think that people well and people like you and I we have we have a resilience about this but also we work Farlane for their business like they wanted us to do. Yes. They can only beat you down for so long.

[00:39:12] And some of us just have to stand up and say I’m not going to take this anymore. And honestly I think my mom got gone. I know you got hurt. People like my mom who life had already beaten her down so far that it’s like that’s what she was used to. So when she came into this cult she was almost like a relief for her like she could breathe again because she had somebody telling her what to do she didn’t have to think for herself anymore. She didn’t have wonder what what was going to happen. She was told that if she were out on Jova and she prayed and she became spiritually fit that everything in her life would just come together and that you know she would that she doesn’t have to worry about those things anymore. Anything that happens in this lifetime doesn’t matter because as long as you’re faithful to Jehovah under every circumstance you’re going to go to paradise. So it doesn’t matter who does it doesn’t matter who abused you it doesn’t matter what happened in your past. Just paraded hopeful about it. Just stay faithful kids in paradise. It’s all going to be race. You know so I mean for her for her. That was enough she didn’t ask questions for me. It wasn’t. It was you know I had questions that couldn’t be answered from a very young age. And I tried to suppress those because of course after I got baptized that I had the obligation of doing what I was supposed to do as a baptized member of Jehovah’s Witnesses and then I had guilt because what the only people actually have in my life or my parents. I don’t have friends.

[00:40:49] I don’t have social activities I don’t have anyone else that I can turn to. My parents are the people that are even. No matter how abusive or how how horrible of an experience I may have had growing up they the only consistency I had. So you know I don’t want to disappoint them. I don’t want that guilt as being the black sheep of the family. But it is what it is now. But at the time you know and then one when I was when I was 13 almost 14 I started having these flashbacks. And I was in my body went into like shock that I was having seizures from from the trauma like I don’t I don’t know what exactly happened my mom took me to a neurologist. He says that you know I was filtering into puberty at the time and sometimes that puberty can cause you your your brain to remember things that you didn’t remember for a child. So it can cause you to lie it unleashes these things like all these warnings. So I started having seizures and I try to slip my mom and dad down one night. Tell them and. No I haven’t told you this before and now but I’m starting to remember things ma’am about your brother about my uncle. You know he he touched me when I was little and I was explaining to her specific instances of times when I was at my grandmother’s house or when I was at my uncle’s house spending the night with my cousins around the age of 4 or five. Where he would one by one come in to the bedroom and take us out.

[00:42:41] And then when one came back he would sometimes it would just be one that night sometimes it would be all of us but one by one. So I’m not gonna get into it like a lot of detail that I did with Obama did tell her specific things that happened and she sends me to my room. Taksin my dad calls me back down and says mind you wrote me when me say this my uncle or was in prison at the time that I’m telling my mom this I’m formalizing his own daughters and his stepdaughter. For a long time I didn’t know why he had gone to prison. Nobody would tell me because I was a kid and I didn’t need to know. They just said he did a bad thing and he had to go pay the consequences for his actions. Right. And these were the same two little girls that he molested were the same two little girls that you were spending the night with. Correct. Yes. Yeah. Got you. And so my mom tells me that she thinks I’m just lying that I just want it in June and that she’s going to take me to the elders. We’re going to talk about this and get some spiritual counseling. Littlefeather before you get to that I don’t mean to interrupt. Do you think you said that your mom had trauma in her past.

[00:44:09] Do you think that her brother could have been part of that trauma and that maybe she was just you know this was a way to she couldn’t accept it herself and she had to distance herself from it by any means possible even if that’s invalidating you. You know that’s a really really good question. I can’t give you a straight yes or no on that because I really don’t know that it’s very proper. I do know that my mother’s a child endured abuse. I’m not sure who it was. Family members I know but I’m always under the impression that it was older members of the family that they had been left with as children. And you know and that’s how the cycle gets past them. Exactly. And I just wondered if you are being spent that most of what my mom endured was like my older brothers were abused by a woman that my mom was a man that my mom was dating. And I don’t know the extent of that abuse either. However I do know that it really hurt my mom because she was just trying to do what was right. She was working two jobs and she had left my brothers with this man who she trusted who she loved she thought would not hurt her older children and come to find out he did hurt my brothers badly. And so my mom I don’t think she’s ever forgiven herself for that. So for me to come to her and say hey this happened I think she was just so it probably brought back trauma from her as well as how helpless she felt as a mother to my brothers when that happened. So for her to have to feel that helplessness again I feel like she failed her child. Stop think she could accept it. Like yeah I know that makes sense. Yeah.

[00:46:05] It didn’t make sense when I was a kid. Oh god no. But I was lying or just be told that I just wanted attention. Oh and you know we ask your uncle and he said he never did that. So right. Right. I mean he wouldn’t lie about oh this is what I was told. Right. Pretty much Kirby. You know I was so angry because he said it didn’t happen. And the elders you know the elders make me go through every curse detail of what happened. Like my mom couldn’t tell him I had to for them to just tell me that OK my cousins were there when it happened. But since they weren’t in the room with us he took us away. So since they weren’t in the room with us they didn’t see it with their own eyes. Happened to me. You know that’s not good enough. Really. Yeah. They weren’t witnesses. They were living in Pekin at dinner with their mother. So at this point John they were living with their mom and they weren’t baptized witnesses so they weren’t credible anyway you know. Right. They were Webley and so the brothers took me on reproofs they place you on reproof. Yes they did were lying for fun I guess because I was making this big story up you know. And it was private reproofs at the time which later turned it into public reports because I had been writing letters back and forth to a boy from the Georgetown congregation and our letters were a little more racy than they should happen. So then it was public proof shortly thereafter.

[00:47:48] So there’s a snowball just builds and rolls downhill and they just gets bigger and bigger. You know it’s from one right when am I led to the deaths no matter where I turn. I’m being rejected I’m being told that I’m not a good kid I’m being told that I’m not a good Jehovah’s Witness. I’m being told that I’m a liar that I want attention that I’m yes. That there’s something wrong with me. You know that there’s something wrong with me that what is happening to me is my fault. It has I. I’ve done something wrong. You either deserve the way I’ve been treated or or because I’m lying you know about it. That’s why that’s why I have all of this emotional pain and this and this is why I can’t get over this hump and be more spiritual because I’m not being truthful and then I’m not you know those kind Zoet everything is my OK and it be that you’re very hurt person it can’t be that there can’t be any modicum of compassion it has to be. You’re a piece of shit and you know you did it to yourself you know. Yeah. It’s so awful. It is. It is awful. And it throws me into a like a victim stance. You know what I mean from that point on from my only point. But even today still I have issues with like playing the victim. Does that make sense. Oh ha. Like I I I don’t even mean to.

[00:49:30] I don’t even realize I’m doing it sometimes if it hadn’t been for therapy and for that other progress that it has been it helped me heal from this. And so I don’t even know I’m doing it. It’s something you mean you mean you mean to tell me the programs outside of Jehovah’s Witnesses have helped you but Jehovah’s Witnesses didn’t you know if that is that dynamic Jehovah’s Witnesses act like their their religion or the Bible or whatever will cure all your ills. But in that funny how you know for most of us that managed to get out it’s the fact that we went to quote worldly you know through programs or to therapists or whatever. It’s those people that actually helped us. It’s not the truth the religion or you know the Bible itself even necessarily it’s these outside people that show basic human compassion and humanity that help us to get through these traumas and to get better. It’s not usually a byproduct of escaping into a religion. This whole our whole life this religion this these these principles of the Bible and their religion are supposed to be what saves us from whatever ails us and how it’s funny that they are so against us turning any worldly therapy or any any other sort of medium to help with our issues. Yes. Those are the people who helped us most borders. And I think a lot. I never felt well I’m not one iota of compassion from the elders that pretty much raised me. Never. Never once did I feel like they were truly on my side. You know horrible you know there’s supposed to be loving shepherds looking for lost sheep and caring.

[00:51:39] You know they always had these pictures in the magazines of a shepherd holding a little lamb or whatever. But you know in a caring way. But you know so often when people go to the elders in the congregation for for help for truly devastating problems I think it just gets back to what you said a minute ago and that is they pretty much just point a back at you and say it’s your fault. Yeah yeah. There is bad and might be separating the flock books deflect. Yeah it’s not it’s not just to make you feel like it’s a man. I don’t know. But I’ll tell you I think that I do think that on some level it takes a certain personality to climb the ladder of Jehovah’s Witnesses to even become an elder sometimes. I’m not I’m not indicting all elders as stone faced compassionate less monsters now but there are certainly a lot of that Jordy of them. There are a lot. You know I got into you as I got older. And then I could drive my life was a little bit easier I guess. And when I switched halls I ended up meeting a guy and I married him to be honest with you just to get out of my parents house to and can’t blame the congregation that he went to. There were some really nice people there you know. I mean it’s the organization that’s cricket it’s the it’s the organization. The rules and the policies that they set down an end. And I don’t think that all of these elders are. I don’t I don’t think they even know how really like screwed up they are.

[00:53:42] I mean I think you know just like what they’ve been brainwashed to do just like read it. They’re doing what they’ve been indoctrinated to do and they make and they’re being passed up like cause it’s a big responsibility to shepherd the flock and so you know you’re doing God’s will. You’re doing what God told you to do. You know and I guess there’s not much room for compassionate love when on the business end of that. And that’s what most of them look at it as just regulations. Yeah yeah and that’s like that. I know I listen to your podcast and you know that rank and file you know at. OK so first of all I’m I’m a kid and sick enough female. And third I’ve already been a reproof so there is like no room for compassion for somebody like me because I’m not any of those things that you need to be. You weren’t even an ounce of respect from an elder. So it is. I don’t know. As a kid it really made me feel so important. Yeah it’s got to be hard to have self respect. Well I know it was for me in such an environment where you’re so invalidated all the time. I respect for myself either I get it. Yeah. So then is the next step in your life then pretty much you know getting married to this person. And yeah a few years and in between there I still struggled with my identity with an making meetings and I was depressed. There was a point in time I developed an eating disorder. And I got really really skinny and we were on vacation.

[00:55:49] One year my family and I and my dad busted in on me in the bathroom when I was throwing up what we had eaten and so on. They put me in the hospital. So I was in a mental hospital here for her for a little while. And when I came out of there is when I decided OK I’m going to turn over a new leaf I’m really going to give it my all this time with that with that organization. And I’m not I’m not going to go dressed in black and shave my head and you know because these are things I’ve done. Like I would go to the Keenum Hall in black head to toe. I had cut my hair off my hair was really long I cut it all off I had color orange I had colored it black you know any sort of expression that I could get away with. I was doing it. So it sounds like you’re kind of trying to trying to find yourself or just have a little control over you her life you know. Yeah in that life where you’ve had so little control and been trapped by so many things just coloring your hair different. Hey it’s something you can control just like honestly the eating disorder those are usually about control. Yeah exactly. And you know also a part of that was when you know a lot of people are going to treat me like shit anyway I’m going to do what I wanted.

[00:57:12] I don’t have friends here know how anybody to impress you so I’m gonna come dressed in all black and wear black makeup and comb my hair in my head or do what I want because it’s not like anybody cares you know. You know if they care they would take time out to talk to me. So since since you’re gonna treat me like an outcast I’m gonna go ahead and be with you. And yeah I did have a lot to do with control. And the lack of control I had in my life and making any decisions for myself. So you know I try to get over that they put me on like all these psych meds and I’m worth 30 days. I was in this hospital in a glass room so that every time that are eight they would make me sit in them you know the floor for an hour after 8:00 to make sure that I wasn’t going to go out there I out. And I did that for like 30 days every single day. And I was on so much medicine that I could not. Like I literally could not see straight. I was seeing double because I was on so much mess and all I wanted to do was sleep. So I come home with these medications and I just feel like a zombie like I don’t remember a whole lot of that my life. So I start slowly weaning off of the medications and then going back to meetings and trying to find branch out and find a group of young individuals that I can get along with that I can’t fit in with. Which is where I met my first husband. And they were they were close they were. They were skaters. They listened to rock music.

[00:58:44] They got together on the weekends and had chaperoned parties where we all had fun and you know I mean it was like I actually started to feel like I applaud them because they didn’t judge me. But they were like those walk the line witnesses Hitler there’s a lot of absolutely everything that they could do without getting. Yeah. Right up to the line. Yeah exactly like toes dangling off the edge. Oh I was like these are my kind of people I could be a witness if I could do it like this. So you know that was nice to finally have a place right. Happy in the sky. You know you take an interest in me. We have talked a lot. And to be honest with you I really wasn’t in love with him. I was in love with the boy from my congregation that I had tried to date for a long time and it just didn’t work out because we were so like mentally screwed up from this indoctrination. We were both so crazy like you know we had no clue who we were relation at the time but am he you know he he ended up calling me three days before my wedding to this guy and my parents had already paid for everything you know for me you get married. They paid for the trip. I was marrying and he had proved himself that he cared about me unconditionally. No decisions on our relationship. And I just I’m used to it. How so. The guy called me in it was like the hardest thing I’ve ever had in the mood is saying. I’m kind of a scheduled myriads other guy. Sorry.

[01:00:42] And as a witness you know they view an engagement almost as though you are married. So you act like an engagement is a promise. And if you bring up an engagement you can get in trouble for that. So yeah. And especially if I were to break it off to go with this other kid. Yeah. There’s no perfect the whole and not me. And I’m really this point this is my last ditch effort. You know I’m going to I’m gonna do this. You know I’m not I’m not going to give up on this religion and I’m not going to give up because my mom and dad like I had been threatened with being disfellowshipped so many times excommunicated and so many times as a teenager because of my actions that they didn’t like so I’m scared to death that I’m going to get this fellowship and the only family that I have the only people that have ever been consistent in my life will have shown me. And so I’m just I’m doing anything I can at this point to stay on the good side because I don’t want to lose my mom and dad and my brother. Right. So I get married and I moved to Cincinnati and I’m married like pretty much falls apart before it ever starts. Regarding to some very immoral sayings we were drinking all of the time smoking weed and as he went he would drink he would be drunk all the time and he wasn’t like an abusive drunk or anything. Happy drunk.

[01:02:05] It was just he was sloppy and we argued a lot and we had no clue how to be a daughter how to be married or you know it was typical with this kids getting married. Yeah exactly. That’s one thing I did like every other witness. But we were also clueless at that point. Yeah. Well we had no we didn’t know how to be anything like I did not know how to be an adult. Okay I did. What what politics were. I don’t know. I never had to pay attention to how many taxes they were taken out of my paycheck or balancing a checkbook or paying bills or you know like I was never taught life skills. I was hopscotched off of that so I didn’t have any idea how to socially interact with people who weren’t jobs. Yeah cause you know the. As you mentioned before the marriages as Jehovah’s Witnesses almost on some level feel arranged and there’s such a lack of the ability to really get to know another person in there. You know chaperone courtship arrangement. Then you end up marrying somebody and finding out oh look you know he he is he can’t start drinking and he’s doing other things and and exact things you could have known other than for the arrangement. The Jehovah’s Witnesses Jews as far as dating goes exactly. Yes. So I still feel guilty about that because honestly he was not a bad person. He’s not a bad guy. We just weren’t right for each other. I did try very hard to make it work though once we moved. I really honestly.

[01:03:52] I can be honest in saying this now and I’m not saying it in like I’m not trying to say it in like a bragging way but I really just marry him to get out of my parents house and I and I thought that’s what you were supposed to do get you into a certain age. Three days after I turned 18. Yeah. Yeah but it hurt a lot. Yeah. And so I just we tried to make it work for a little while. But we both started seeing someone else and the only reason I didn’t get disfellowshipped because of our divorce is because we were both inactive at the time and because she had he had committed adultery. He had been with someone else and had admitted to it. And so I didn’t get disfellowshipped for that. And I’m already considered I’m hiding I’m ducking and dodging the others after this. Like I’m not even in mobile anymore so I don’t have to worry about facing the same people that were in my congregation. So I could go to new car she started new and they don’t even have to know about all this stuff right. Right. And I’m not thinking they’re gonna stay in my publisher’s God with all the private notice about you. So then they got the dirt on these others. They realized you know what we’re going to do. And since you been an active for a little while and you’re coming to us and we think you’re truly repentant for everything that’s happened we’re a lot let you start over like we’re not going to put on her proof. Now we want you to study with the sister here and we’re just going to treat you like a study and movie backup so you can’t answer any questions right away.

[01:05:34] But you know if you come to meetings consistently you can start answering questions again. And you know we’ll worry about all that as it comes. We’ll let you progress backup. So I thought this is it. This is my chance right. That was actually somewhat kind of them. Yeah it was but these were Aldred these were in Cincinnati Ohio got up and I had started smoking cigarettes at this point. And so I was not willing to give up smoking. I mean I tried but I just it’s a very very hard addiction to ultimate. And they thought I should just be over a period away you know oh my goodness. You just stopped smoking. So then I had called in to in a meeting with those owners a couple turns and they’re like if you can’t quit smoking get healthy. So I just stopped going again. Right. Like I run from the problem because that’s the best way for me in that time. Right. Those were the tools you had. Exactly. I don’t know how to work this out or anything so I just I stopped going again and I’m still making the memorial. You know my mom’s like oh no you’re not making other means but you have to make the memorial. So I I do it to make her happy here. And I met another guy and had my first son with this man. And you know me my picker was broken because this man was very emotionally abusive to me and controlling.

[01:07:09] And so it was very fitting for me to be with someone who was going to control every aspect of my life. And I went through our a string of bad decisions with him and I started drinking and using drugs after my son was born. I was using cocaine and ecstasy and pretty much anything else that was offered to me at the time. I would do it I mean that makes sense. Yeah. Well I didn’t want to have that. I was always looking for an escape. You know of course of course I was nothing nothing to this point has ever been dealt with. You know exactly and not only has it not been dealt with but up until this point in my life I’ve never felt my gobble armed anywhere. And that’s a deep emotional pain because as humans it’s in our nature that you want to be have that herd mentality and you want to fit somewhere I want to go somewhere where you feel safe. And I never have. So I didn’t I didn’t I didn’t delve into my addiction at that point but later on in my life I did develop a very honest debris addiction to drugs. I tried to fill that void with sperm men with getting that attention. You know that from a man to validate me I’m it would work for a little while. But then once reality set in and hit the newness where were off and he wasn’t in love with me anymore I would just drop him and go on somebody else. He was going to worship me for a little while. Yeah it’s really sad. A lot of people are immense Herpa that comes with all that too. Well there is. Yeah.

[01:09:05] Because for the first time I felt like I adored and respected him. You know what to an extent anyway even if it was just like a physical validation it was validation and I craved that. So you know things things progressed. My mom and dad didn’t really shun me. They knew I wasn’t doing the right thing but they were always you know trying to tell me my dad was not a bad times we necessarily think that he wrote something or met you which Mersch is it your mother’s right and you need to go back to the whore you know kind of. He he would like. Eventually he got to the point where he agreed with my man. And I guess he finally decided or they decided together that they did love each other and it was worth fighting through for their marriage and they got to a place where my dad wouldn’t go to the hall. But he didn’t oppose my mother got anymore. He would help my mom get my little brother ready or help her cook dinner or make sure that we were being quiet. My mom was doing her Bible study or whatever so he got to a point where he was more supportive. But by that point I was already far too far gone I guess. You know ordinary affect me that much that he and then I just thought it was hypocritical of him like how are you going to tell me to do this. You don’t do it. And you can tell and I don’t want to think you’re going make me go anyway. You know yeah yeah.

[01:10:24] Suddenly you think about those with your dad because they don’t know what her so then you know how did this. So you’re not you’re not disfellowshipped or anything you’re you’re just you know you’re living this life your sounds like your own addiction at this point. How did that you know how did that play out. As far as you know from there on because you know that you know honestly with all the trauma and not just you know that you know most people will see trauma as obviously you know what happened to you when you were a little kid from Europe your uncle but you know trauma has just been the name of the game throughout your life as you’re going through. You know this whole life as a witness and then you know now you’ve got I’m sure there are negative consequences and traumas as a result of the drugs and everything else. Honestly you’re probably very fortunate that you didn’t destroy yourself. That probably it speaks to you know your spirit. So how did how did that you know transform over time. Well like I said I went from just dabbling in different drugs and then I did quit for a little while I went to school to get my cosmetology license. I got my cosmetology license and was happy by a very short period of time. I’m getting married to my sons Dad would fix everything it just made it worse. So when I mean our society last year and one day I just packed my stuff while he was at work and I ran and felt really guilty because I lost my son for a period of time.

[01:12:15] But I had to do what I had to do it away from him. I’m desperate at that point to just get away from him. I could not under the abuse any longer I was really sick. I had developed a stomach disease a rare stomach condition called gastroparesis and I had had seven surgeries and the two year period was on pain medicine. Just one prescription after the other after the other. And so I’ll get a prescription every month from my doctor thinking that I meet it because I’m in pain not realizing that when I run out I’m not so sick because of my disease I’m sick because I’m going through withdraw because I’m now addicted to these opiates. I didn’t know what addiction was. My family never really had that dare talk with me. You know we never really talked about that kind of stuff because they never expected that of me being raised as a witness. That was more it was more women never expected me to dive into that. You know so we never had that talk about drugs and how they can ruin your life even if they had. I’m not sure what made a difference because I was just taking the medicine that the doctor prescribed me not not realizing that I’ve got this physical addiction that has grown inside of you. So I get cut off from the doctor because you know I’m trying to refill my medication too early like three months in a row and I start. And so I mean I’m as if all the trauma that happened when I was younger wasn’t enough I’m traumatizing myself over and over again every day with this day in and day with.

[01:13:49] You know I was I was homeless for a little while just on people’s couches and and then my addiction really took off when I was about twenty seven. And I had met another guy and had another son. And the crazy thing about this is one thing I’m really grateful for. Through all of this is that I never had any hard core addictions when I was pregnant with my kids. So I didn’t have to worry about my children being born addicted to drugs. I can imagine what what a woman goes through when she has that problem and I used to be really judgmental I think and how could you do drugs when you’re pregnant with your baby you don’t care about your baby. That’s not true. Addiction is a monster addiction will take everything from you and make you feel like it’s everybody else’s fault that your life is in shambles. You know it’s hard to take that power back but just miraculously somehow I ended up not being on any hard drugs or anything when I was pregnant with my kids so they were born healthy. They’re very smart sweet intelligent children. Unfortunately the cycle continued with them because you know through my addiction and through the trauma that I had never dealt with my children ended up going through a trauma. They ended up leaving a sick life because I was sick. And so it was a ripple effect. I wasn’t there for my children. Emotionally I would leave my kids for days at a time with my parents and go off to use drugs and be just laid up in abandoned house somewhere high for days.

[01:15:23] I have no clue what actually happened to me some of those days. I don’t know the people that I was around. I’m. You’re right. I’m really really really fortunate to have come through that as unscathed as I did. And it’s not it’s not a place when I was that 13 year old girl get that test that I ever imagined my wife would be at because I thought that their religion was going to fix all of these issues I was having. And I thought that these people would help me get over what I had experienced and make me a better person. And that’s just not the case. You know what. It’s not what happened. You heard that Jehovah has limitations. Yeah yeah exactly yeah. And you know a hen so throughout all of this progressing my addiction went from prescription pills and alcohol to heroin. And I had started you know just wasn’t using intravenous at first for the first couple of years but it developed did you anI.V. drug use situation an arm I’ll leave a lot of those details just because it’s it’s too much to get into. Really wish I had. OK sir. By this time I had left my midriffs CERN’s dad and I had a string of men who when I actually did commit myself to a man he would always cheat on me. He would always either read me for someone else or he would say was me. Because you know I I worked I cook I clean to Jahid kids. A lot of the guys in my life didn’t really have any responsibility that took on that responsibility because I wanted to fix someone.

[01:17:14] And I was so desperate for somebody to love me and to care about me that I was willing to go to any lengths to make that happen. So I would say no no no no you don’t have to go to work. I worked two jobs. No let me cook for you. Let me take care. Maybe let me do the housework thinking oh they’re going to have so much admiration and for me that they will be able to leave me because they never going to finally get a tree that is not so bad. Do you think that in any way. I guess I’m a little bit of a workaholic myself and I kind of attribute a lot of that to growing up a witness as a witness you are a people pleaser or you’re out of taught to be. And we always had so much to do as witnesses that there wasn’t really time to just sit down and just be you are always doing something you know the difference between a human being and a human doing. You know we were human doings we were always busy going here and going out in service or going to this meeting or studying this and then you from what you said also had this family element where you were taking care of your younger brother and you were helping your cousin in the homeschooling while trying to kind of do the homeschooling yourself and in addition to all these other witness activities so do you feel that just.

[01:18:47] Just struck me do you feel that you know some of these relationships not only was it just you know desperation for attention for love for validation but also kind of a bond and a need or something that has been developed in you to just keep doing something always. Well yeah I still have that issue. I’m verya.g so I’m always fidgeting. Like we’re talking right OK. My hands are man and I’m crossing and crossing my legs. Oh understand. It’s busy work. You get so reigned in during that busy work when you’re a part of the organization because they keep you doing that so that your mind is focused on what they want to be focused on. So we’re not missing on any doubt you may have or you’re not really able to look at the big picture because you’re so busy. Yeah. Some guests that definitely think that probably it has something to do with it. I’m not sure that I ever really respect the kinds. I’ve always been Saccharomyces you know I had always been stuck on trying to get attention from someone or validation or that loves or be you know that that you make a really good point there that I’m always it’s something that I just don’t know how to not do. I don’t know how to say it so I don’t you know I don’t know how to not do that busy work. I guess I have I have two speeds and that’s on and off. And either you know sometimes I can sit there and just kind of go in front of the TV. I like the TV honestly and personally I like to watch reruns of shows because I don’t have to pay attention to them.

[01:20:35] And I can just turn my brain off it’s pretty much the only way I can get otherwise I’m just constantly going. But you know even every human being needs to shut down at some point. So that’s how I do it. But I just it’s something that I’ve been realizing myself and you know just hearing your experience here just made me wonder if you thought that might play into it as well. Obviously there’s lots of things at play you know in our humanity. But it seems to have quite an impact on us. You know the whole experience of being a witness not to mention all of the other stuff that you had to deal with and face Oh yeah Devon definitely makes an impact. The whole my whole life was just kind of a recipe for disaster. To an extent as far as my drug use goes and how far down that I went where I hit bottom with that. Yes. So even though I found healthy ways now to keep myself busy and I find healthy ways to I guess decompress. It’s still something that I’ll know that I’ll ever be able to get rid of that you know that feeling. Because when you’re a witness when you’re in the truth quote of course you feel guilty if you’re not. If you have downtime because that means you could be spending either in battle field service. You know at the Keenum studying more in depth next week’s Watchtower Bible study or whatever you like so you’ll see if you take time to yourself. There is not. There is no allowance for you to know who you are. For you to enjoy you there’s no allowance for that.

[01:22:22] So I still feel that way now. As a mother as a wife and in a lot of times I’ll give this to you and say I don’t ever have time for me I don’t ever get slowed down. I don’t make time for me I don’t make time to sort out. So really I can’t you out right now. I have to make that time and I just don’t because I end up like something in the back of my mind says that I’m not allowed. Something tells me I’m not allowed. I recently listened to a podcast. There’s a book by a lady named Gretchen Rubin and the book is entitled The four tendencies and the book has to do. From what I could gather with with how humans respond to outside expectations and there were four different tendencies for categories it was like Upholder questioner rebel or a bludger. And when she was going through them the first thing I thought is oh I’m a questioner you know I’ve questioned a lot of things in my life that helped me to leave this organization behind to help me leave this cult that had me helps me to to challenge my my own perceptions on a lot of things and to find a healthier freer life. But as she was talking about them and I believe there was a test that you could take on her Web site. It was very apparent to me that actually at my core everyone has some of all these qualities but I am Anna Bligh Jr.

[01:23:59] I am very much a person that if I feel that there is an outside expectation of me to do something I will absolutely do it and go above and beyond the Indian thing going above and beyond and doing it obliges tends to make excellent people in service industries like I work in. Because your customers are going to love you you’re going to do anything for them. But obliges tend to end leaving themselves out of the equation and that can make a very bitter resentful. Yeah. Conversations with yourself can. It can. And I really think I think that on some level I was naturally wired that way. You know again we all have parts of these qualities but I wonder how much are our upbringing as witnesses. I almost wish I wish I could take some sort of a survey of it. I don’t know maybe I’ll put up a survey on the on the Web site or something I’m think about that but I just wonder how many other people who might be listening to this who are ex witnesses would would also kind of tick the box of being in a bludger and I think that that has to do with growing up in an organisation that was so authoritarian and that absolutely made us that way not in an organization that if you like you don’t you’re not allowed to have free thought or an it’s all so it’s not about you. It’s all about them. It’s all about them and it’s all about their name. You know they know they want that gold star by their name. Yep and you have to get it for Zakhilwal. Yeah and if you don’t then your hey you’re out buddy. You voted yes. Now. Yeah.

[01:26:05] We were never allows for it to be about us right. We didn’t birthdays we didn’t have celebrations where we were special. No we weren’t. We weren’t told that we were special again like we were good for nothing slaves of Jehovah just as it was. So why would we ever think that it was about anything other than them or quote unquote Jehovah. You know is it’s just waking up to this has been has been life changing and heart breaking and freeing all at the same time. It almost makes you or me personally. It almost makes me feel like how could I be so stupid. How could I be so good. You know what I mean to think that that even though even though I had questions about it my whole life I’ve had questions about the people. But my mom always told me you don’t serve the man you serve God you serve Jehovah. You do these things because of Jehovah and the organization of religion has good bones and that there’s people in the organization that are going to be good people because we’re all imperfect but it’s not up to us to serve man. We serve Jehovah. So my whole life I’ve gone through this every phase of my life where I’ve done really effed up things.

[01:27:28] And when I come back around when I come down I’ve got that guilt still in the back of my head about the truth that this is the truth and how how can I turn my back on it and I know what I need to do and I’ve been told my whole life that you know all this bad shit that’s happened to you has happening to you because you aren’t serving Jehovah and if you just serve Jehovah and get back into the congregation your life will be fine. Jahar would bless you if you were doing what you were supposed to do. But we’re not going to help you because you’re not doing the same. And it’s all your fault it’s your fault it’s your fault. That’s all there is to it. So my whole life I think about all these times that I finally thought I was going to break away from the religion. I did it in the wrong way. I did it through you know through promiscuity and through drug abuse and through running. You know I was scared you didn’t know who I was so I didn’t know how to break away and just beat me. So I think about all these times like how could I really have thought I never I never thought to look deeper. It was it wasn’t until I started listening when I connected with you on Facebook and started listening to your podcast and then I started listening to JT and Lady C. And this is a man who was in Bethel. Okay. This is a man who would have been like royalty to us in our congregation. And he’s not he’s not gashing he’s not bashing he’s not he’s not speaking out at all. Some sort of resentment. He’s not being vile about it. He’s speaking from his heart about this organization and why he just could not go on. You know I mean because it is crooked like he but he wasn’t. He’s not trying to convert anybody else. He just has a simple discussion just like you.

[01:29:24] You told your story if you didn’t want anybody into a category of everybody in this way this is bad and you need to leave right now. You told your story and you changed my perspective you knew open my eyes saw that I could question. So I know I’m the only one who was questioning his dignity. That it’s such an instantaneous thing that the way they make us feel alone because we can’t talk about it. Yes exactly. Yes. And so once I realized I wasn’t alone and actually did do some research for myself and that I could I could ask questions because I wasn’t the first one to ask those questions. And like apostates were a real thing. Many were certain death if you ever talk to an apostate or loaded up past they say oh yeah. So yeah it was really the turning point in my life just hanging in like the last year. Because when I got clean and sober in 2014 where do you think I went back to the Chelimo. Exactly. I went back to I started attending meetings. What did the brothers and I confessed all my sins. Our show. And I thought you know that brother was your brother. Now I have to say this brother he will always love him and I’ll always have respect for him because not once did he ever look at me as anything other than a person. He didn’t look at me as a bad stepsister. He looked at me as a drug addict he didn’t look at me as somebody who had children out of wedlock.

[01:31:01] He looked at me as somebody who’s been hombres you look at me as a person. And to this day this brother has still sent me text messages or if he sees me in public he won’t judge me. He refuses to work and that means so much to me because it gave me hope like a glimmer of hope. And I really want to go to him some time. And like text him the link to your podcast stands the link to like JT inlays just see what would happen because you could tell that he is an elder. He has a reputation. You are recording. However he is not going to let them take his humanity. Yeah. And so I have. I have mad respect for their elders to be honest. It’s that the people who don’t allow their humanity to be taken are often the people who leave. So yeah you know there’s still hope there is hope that I don’t want to be the one. I just really thought about hey here’s the information it’s right in front of you take your Revitt do what you want. I don’t want you. I don’t know. That’s right. It’s like I have a ambivalent about it. No I understand because it’s it’s it’s a you don’t want to destroy somebodies life that they have if they’re happy. Exactly yeah. I totally get that. You know and look you know my podcasts Ray Franz’s book Crisis of Conscience JT and Lady C John Cedar’s like all these. There is so much information out there. I mean I’m leaving out so many people who are out there that are you know producing different content.

[01:32:48] The Army just as the that army of apostate chick the other all these people who are putting things out there that you know in their own voice and you know some times you know one person’s voice. I remember when I when I first came out I didn’t like Lloyd Evans’s stuff. I found it be a survey it was it was too strong for me. I just wasn’t I wasn’t ready to handle the directness of some of that information I just couldn’t I couldn’t look at that on at the time and I only did something else. And there were other things. Yeah. Yeah. So you don’t want to leave you in a little more gently. Yeah yeah definitely it a little more. It was very hard to look at all this stuff it was terrifying and very difficult. And you know so many people who are listening I’m sure have been through that process. So this this elder this guy that you have this you know respect for. You know if if he’s looking he’ll find it and if he’s really open and if he’s not then he won’t. And you know it’s his life. Exactly. It’s his life. You know I just I’m just that’s why I figured out I have this issue like I really want to do that and at the same time I doubt it’s because that at one point in time if someone had tried to show me those things I wear them like most of the witnesses are and dismiss it and being really upset was something I had become too on my own.

[01:34:27] So I would have dug in further I would have said not only am I not going to listen to whatever this is. I’m going to double down on being a witness because now I’m scared. Yeah exactly. Yeah but seeing your podcast was the first thing I ever listened to that was Antine Jadavpur you know I had heard things before and had conversations all about you know even as an inact it’s non-member Jehovah’s Witnesses about’s you know oh well I’m not in the religion but I would never bring reproach upon Jehovah’s name. And this is what they really believe and you know it’s so interesting to witness to people even though in my heart I know I don’t believe it. But I feel like I’m afraid if that comes out of my mouth that that disbelief if those questions come out of my mouth. I’m on Mattingley like I’m going to be zapped off the earth. Then you know to this day to this day and you know I’ll say it I’m an atheist at this point. But to this day if I say something and you listen to my part here on the show and podcast you I do occasionally say things I’ll joke about something or whatever. Yeah it’s still pings in the back of my head. Oh you’re bringing reproach on Jehovah’s name. He’s going to kill you. And it’s like you know a lot of talk. We can’t rewire our selves now. Well it doesn’t go well you know I don’t know I’ve I’ve only been out two and a half years or less you know maybe eventually it will go away. That sounds nice as well.

[01:36:05] But it also kind of just points to how much like let let’s break this down. What were what was it that we were really being ruled by. It wasn’t this loving God it wasn’t out of love for neighbor any of that. It was fear it was fear that if there is this authority figure in the sky that if we don’t do everything just right is going to kill us. Yeah like we used to exist in there’s no after life. You’re just going and you’re going to be gone. You’re going to have no happiness. You’re going out. You have nothing right. You know what this is what I always talk about you know in the Bible it talks about the fear of God being a motivation. And they would always say that it’s not a fear. Help me see here. Oh yes yes. So you feel. Yeah. A healthy fear of displeasing him just like when you want to displease your parents right. Well I mean that nobody wants to displease their parents. You know everyone wants to respect and love their parents. But if just being you displeases them and they are going to kill you for it then that’s not healthy. Yeah well that’s that’s like being in an abusive relationship and being abused as a child. You. It’s not a healthy fear of displeasing because it’s a loving and forgiving God. If you just please weddings again in God in you’re imperfect and we know you’re imperfect then why would you have to be so out of step that he’s going to smite you once you cease to exist because you made a mistake. Right.

[01:37:42] You make human error. So yeah it never made sense to me. And I don’t think I’ve ever read that. And I’ll tell you in the last year I’ve had one times where I have had these deep like irrational thoughts in my head when this really is the truth. I am an apostate now and I’m speaking out against it and it turns out to be true. That’s right. I can’t get it out of my head. The sandstorm has wrought Judy and I just hope it’s a thing. I don’t think ever Rogel away. Maybe maybe it will years down the road. I hope that maybe actually help some people just kind of see the light so to speak and to help them if they want out. They know how to reach out like it maybe that will be therapeutic in a way. I hope this I hope that you might know it is therapeutic. I can 100 percent say that it’s very therapeutic and I think that it that honestly doing this podcast does help me too because we all need it. You know every one of us that left this still has those those things in the back of our head that ping us at times leftover indoctrination and it helps to be able to talk about it and to help others and things like that. So yeah in every Chanderpaul have said listen to them they’re telling a piece of my story. There’s always that common pebble. You know that we have. And so that in itself is therapeutic in healing for me. Every single time that I hear.

[01:39:25] That’s that’s why I kind of approached you had said like hey I want to be a part of this because every time that I hear those those things that we have in common it is just reaffirms that I’m not alone in that I’m not crazy and that I’m not a bad person and that I don’t have to be a victim anymore I can stand up for myself. Yeah that’s pretty cool and in fact you know what you’re doing right now is kind of standing up for yourself. You know it’s you know the consequence is that this the scariest for me. We’ve talked about that you know. So yeah. But you’re not officially shown at this point. No not officially. I’m sure and I’m not. It’s not on paper yet but I promise you it’ll get back around and I will be I’m sure. And if it does and I’ve come to terms with that I’ve come to peace with that and I respect my parents for who they are and what they choose to believe. It’s sad that they can not even respect me for who I am and what I choose to believe. But that’s just because they’re just as brainwashed as I was at one point. So my dad is now baptized and goes to meetings and is just as indoctrinated as my mother. And it’s like I think you were talking about this in more of your earlier podcasts about secondhand smoke effect. And in a continuing secondhand smoke effect where you know when you smoke around someone they may not be directly putting it in their lungs that secondhand smoke affects their actions like those people could get sick from being in that atmosphere.

[01:41:07] So it’s kind of an anathema to NATO is that that that atmosphere that was around my dad my dad you know his fame was not really close to him and my mom. And you know my mom’s family they were the ones that were around so he was around us atmosphere. Jehovah’s Witness religion he was around this culture he saw. So my mom goes through all of these things and you know Hando you know her life through the policies of the cult and how women rock. The one thing that really was the turning point for my dad was my mom. You know the whole world issue. Jehovah’s Witnesses refuse blood transfusions. So my mom has always been very ill. Pretty much my entire life. She’s had her problems she’s cancer she’s had some serious diseases she’s had surgery after surgery. And so my mom’s surgery a few years back and the doctors Kagin when they told him you know call your Priester or whoever to do last Friday because she’s bleeding out and she’s not going to make it down there. So my word for the first time ever in my life that means he hit his knees and he was like you know Jehovah we’re not on good terms but you saved my life. I will do. I would do whatever you want I promise you I would do whatever she wants me to do if you just let her live. I’ll be a Jehovah’s Witness. I’ll be a good person I’ll quit drinking completely out of watching horror movies.

[01:42:46] My dad is begging on his hands and knees his eyes out because I’ll tell you what my parents they’ve been put that together and they’ve come out the other side stronger. My parents are just as alert today as they were when they first met and my parents are a special breed. I don’t know how to explain man. One hand are very cold towards me. They weren’t like I’m gonna ask them for help you know because I know where I am sure I’m going to get which is. Well you were right. What a relief it shall even. Yes it’s a conditional love to an extent. And then there’s other times where they’re so confusing because they will call me to tell me Oh you’re that sick and he’s gonna have surgery or whatever. So I don’t really know how to take that again. Gynt fusion of mixed signals like Maharastra nothing but my dad was just and his heart you know. So she came through somehow she pulled through that surgery without any blood or blood products or anything and she was in the hospital for a few weeks and she was really weak. She made it and my dad kept his promise. No that’s what he said he’s going to do so that’s what he did. And he studied and he started going to meetings and he got baptized this last year. And you know maybe he should have became a doctor since that was the doctors that saved him saved her. Yeah right. Give us about that other. Yeah. The doctors performed the surgery that saved your mom. That’s who he is he really owes something to but.

[01:44:36] Now I understand and I understand the emotions of that and and you know death is something that’s bigger than us and that’s scary and you know you’re looking at losing somebody you love. And yeah you know I completely see how you know emotions get heightened and you would do anything you know to save that person. So he has followed you know. And it was I guess it was one of those points where my dad can he didn’t really have much known for him in the way of his Catholicism anyway. He hadn’t gone to the church and he didn’t do any of that stuff. So why not. You know I mean his character was one of those Weinert situations where one just bugged me my I closer together. We’ll have every that we can share sir. Hey it sounds like it got him to quit drinking too. So I mean that’s click click heavily drinky. Yeah. I doubt put in that mental hospital. That was a turning point as well. He quit heavily drinking then I guess maybe it was a little bit of a wakeup call for him that we and our dynamic changed that went to my dad. We don’t have a strained relationship as my mother. I do. But I still not I still feel like I’m unapproachable to me. Now even evenF.R. even if I wanted to approach them with something they’re just the way they would be possible. So it often ends up being pretty one sided because Jehovah’s Witnesses have this policy of shunning and then the only like a loophole in their shunning policy is that a person can be spoken to for quote necessary family business.

[01:46:29] Who determines what necessary family businesses. Is the witness so weak as the non witness you don’t get to determine that they do. And so it so it becomes this one sided thing where when they need you when they want something from you they will let you know but otherwise they’re probably not going to be there for you. And the sad thing is like my go know I can’t say that there will be a point in time where I’m not there for them if they do call me. Because as Emily and I refuse to be that way out west this cult or a reason because it might be that kind of person. So I refuse to be that person so whenever my family ever calls me and eat something I’m going to be there for farm because that’s what SAMEWAY supposedly thinks. Yeah that’s beautiful. Are there any questions that haven’t gotten fixed. Well. Well I know we talked about my addiction. We really talk about my recovery as much so when I did go back yeah I mean it’s in rehab. You know I needed some help. I needed a program that would help me learn how to live again. Being sober and drug free and that would help me learn how to some sort of therapeutic process. I could go through to leave all this crap behind so that I could be the person that I was meant to be. I guess you could say that you and I went brothers. Yet when I went to the brothers in the congregation they had no symptoms. You know they just had nothing for me. They treated me like scum of the earth.

[01:48:01] Most of them when I went back to the congregation. I was raised in. They would not even look at me. There were two people there even were remotely happy to see me. Then one of those people you may know. It’s like you could say it’s mama. I didn’t know I didn’t want to. Yeah your mom. Remember that. Nice to me. She really was she. She told me Don’t worry about what anybody else said she was just happy to see me. And then another sister the sister that actually studied with my mom brought her in. She was very nice to me. I went back several several times and was it was the same way every time. Nobody even looked at me. They would just walk past me like I wasn’t standing there so I’m trying to talk you not talk to my mom and said you know my mom I’m dry in here. I just feel so out of place. I feel like they’re never going to let go of my past. The money Nevine. So she says well you know they’re hurt you hurt them. You have to look at it like this. They put their trust in you that you wouldn’t bring reproach upon Jehovah’s name and you did and they were hurt so that you have to prove yourself to them before they’re gonna give you their attention. Because they gave you their attention in a way when you were younger and you traded. So now you have to prove yourself. That was her justification her reasoning behind why they treated me like that.

[01:49:32] The film’s loving you. I turned to you know Hafsat program on the bike an Alcoholics Anonymous program. And you know I was sponsored by a woman to help me get down to the root of my problems who helped me be armed with the facts about who I really am and helped me blossom into this. This journey of of who who do I want to be. Who am I. Who are you. Like I really don’t know. So let me know. I was in the middle of this identity crisis trying to stay clean and sober trying to regain everything I had lost my addiction and the first place. Like I said that I thought to go was back to the organization. And it was the first place I went and the first place that turned around and kicked me right out the door. Basically you know saying I’ve found no solace there I found no shelters here. There was no refuge for me in the organization. So all but you know I’m my one of the biggest problems I have especially with that congregation is the man who molested me as a child is a member of that creation still. No. Yeah he he is a member. He goes to that congregation. He may have moved from that congregation. Now I don’t know. I haven’t spoke to him at all. You know my family when he got out of prison they just pretend like everything should be fine like I should be run to be in a room with this man. We had a graduation party my brother. It was like a huge day.

[01:51:17] He graduated high school for someone with cerebral palsy and autism and his business more like a mental deficiency like a communication issue than it is a physical issue. He’s not in a wheelchair or anything. He just he has problems with comprehension. And he’s like he’s 31 now but he’s got the mentality of like a 15 year old. So for him to graduate high school was an amazing thing. So I’m with my mom. We are planning his Tony. I’ve got decorations. I’ve learned a place to have as part of the cake. I’ve made all these arrangements and I’m so excited to give Mother Brennan’s graduation party because we’re so proud of him. The night before the party my mom and dad very casually very like I guess I don’t know what the word is. Cavalier maybe they were kind of like oh by the way your uncle’s going to be their and US flipped. I lost my shirt. I was like I’ve thrown all my energy and time into this from our brother. And you know how I feel about him you know. Why would he do this and then why would you make it like this surprise. And it’s not the first or last time. Right. Well I guess that was kind of the first time that happened but it wasn’t the last time that it happened. They will have cookouts in the past few years. My parents want cookouts a family gatherings are my mom probably in some cases and you can’t cut my hair and I’ll cry and then it’s like I’m in the middle of cutting her hair.

[01:52:41] Oh your uncle’s on his way over a holiday weekend for a house dad here. We’re going to spend the night Gordon meeting with us. Right. How can best this man who robbed not only me but other girls in our family of our innocence who may have remorse that doesn’t show it as far as I can see he was still never admitted to this day that he hurt me. How is he not shy. And I know it’s completely it’s completely backwards. He’s supposed to be. He’s supposed to be accepted. Now come on Casey look. You. You should just forgive and forget. Okay. Now what you did that’s unforgivable and unforgettable. Well he did. I mean come on. You know when I look at Ben Mike he was just starting and he wasn’t baptized until later when he got out of prison. It was okay it was OK. It got a race all out in the books. I was baptized. So what I did was George havan on the organization I tarnished their name. He didn’t tarnish their name. They didn’t tarnish their name by protecting pedophiles and by punishing the victims. Yeah he tarnished you are you know me and that in turn tarnished their organization. I’m the one who needs to be shot. Right. You haven’t done anything in this whole and everything that you’ve explained so far. You have the only person that you have heard so far as you say you didn’t do anything to hurt anybody else. You took it out on yourself. Yes. And he actively hurt other people. And yet he.

[01:54:30] Oh he’s cool because of some stupid organizational technicality. It’s like nowhere. Will show me in the Bible where it says that once you’re baptized everything you do thereafter counts. But before you’re baptized none of that counts. Like where is that. That’s not there. Yeah. And the fact that they would protect him and that he’s in this congregation with what he did. Okay. And then Emily allows him to come around and I lost custody of my son came on little side. And he live with my brother and I am now you know I’ve been clean and sober a little over three and a half years. So I’m really proud of that. And I’m working so working towards regaining our thanks that I gained weight loss when I was on my addiction my kids be one of those things. Now my 8 year old he lived with my brother and my brother. Knowing how I felt about this and nobody ever protected me nobody ever stood up for me not out of my older brothers. My own father my mother nobody ever stood up for me and said What about how I feel you know and I’m not trying to be poor poor pitiful me now because it’s over with and I have to get a break and run for my own sanity I consider that you know I’ve had enough years of resentment over it. However when I tell my brother how I feel about that and other he has custody of what he’s allowing this person to be around my children. It drove me insane.

[01:56:03] It it’s it’s something that I know I will never be able to accept I’ll never accept that you were allowed this known around my children. You know no it’s not his job. I do in the bedroom. Momma Well let me ask you so I know there was. I just I you can choose to talk about this or not but there was one witness who tried to help you out with your kid right. Oh yes. So you know that brother that I was telling you about that. Never quite lost his humanity and was a really good guy. Right. Right. Okay so I mean I was incarcerated for a while. I was actually clean and sober at the time that I was incarcerated. But because of another technicality of a program I was and I was put in jail. And I had my son was only six weeks old my youngest had a 2 year old. He was only six weeks old pharyngeal and. And I go now and then. Was that right back in. Because I disagreed to go to this long rehab. They wanted me to go to one that was already clean and sober but I’m a felon so I’m kind of like I say I’m not sober to the Commonwealth. In a committed or an easy to hold. Then you have a choice I have to do what they say or go back to jail. Well for the first time in my life I held my integrity and said No I’m not doing this. I didn’t do anything wrong. I’m going to stand up for myself and I’m not going to go get shipped off four hours away from home.

[01:57:42] I want to go home. My kids well they put me back in jail. And this sister wrote me in jail. And she told me that since I had chosen a life of immorality and drugs and crime and couldn’t be a mother to manage children that I she just let her adopt my son out to someone in a congregation because there were people out there who were actually care about my son and give him a chance at a good life serving Jehovah. But he wasn’t even that nice about it. He was not. She was very dry about it. Like basically just he was the only sensible thing for me to do what I would be doing my son a disservice if I didn’t sign him I wrote to her about her adoption and that this lady she’s just she’s never been a nice person in general. Maybe somewhere down deep inside of her she is. But from you know she’s like a third generation or more. so she never had a chance to have a hip a humanity side to her. She’s just she’s a mind was drawn. She wasn’t even born with humanity as far as Asir most of the elders in people in the congregation don’t see you as anything more than the number on your publisher’s card. And that’s how she saw me but she saw a chance at redemption through masseurs. So she wanted to take Marsan from me in an that’s one time my mom did kind of stand up for me though. She was like absolutely not. If anybody’s going to have your son is going to be me.

[01:59:28] So I’ve no problem properly telling this woman to screw off. Any mindless stoners get to rest my to love Jehova. It’s got to be smart. Well obviously. So how much of that letter was about hoping you none of it absolutely none of it really. They don’t I’m just shocked that they would only want what they wanted. She came to visit me one time in the jail and that’s all she talked about was what were my plans because I lived in a trailer park that they owned at the time I lived in a house where my plane with my trailer because they really needed to move my stuff out get somebody else in there. I wasn’t going to be living there. And what did I decide to do about my son. And I just Hungar found up and turned my back and waited to be let out of the. So you were behind the glass. Yes I was ready to go back into the plaza and that the charge had been that there was no concern for me or is there anything they could do to help me or not even money redistributed. Yeah you know it was like all business now they were done with you they just wanted your kid out. Yeah they wanted my offspring. It is sad. It is there anything that you would like people that have never been witnesses to know don’t do it it’s a trap. No not look it’s not that all the people in the organization OK.

[02:01:14] There are some good people in that organization but as you said earlier the majority of the time those people are the ones who end up leaving because they wake up I I don’t think it’s just an organization of these evil vile wicked people. However I do believe that at the top of that pyramid are some evil and vile and selfish people who dole down these principles and these policies and the organization itself is just it’s a very crooked place. And I would not I would not raise my children to be raised like I was. Oh I could. I wouldn’t do you know just do your research. If there’s ever anything if you’ve ever thought about setting with a member of Jehovah’s Witnesses or being a Jehovah’s Witness. Just do your research what they have him tell you is everything that doesn’t. Is it proJ.W. is a lie that’s been handed down by apostates because they are a part of Satan in the world. But that’s that’s not the case. Do your research and you know it is it’s something you know you really want and you think you could be happy then by all means. But from my experience I’m really lucky to be alive today. Very much and I will never go back to that. I will never go back to making myself feel worthless or making myself feel like I’m not good enough. Because you know the religion tell people that I left because I’m a sinner and I’m immoral and I let the world insane take place of Jehovah an organization that’s out there I never had the love for Jehovah my heart. That’s not true. I have a very big heart. I’m a very loving person.

[02:03:22] I mean my husband gets mad at me sometimes because I go out of my way to help other people. And I would take away from myself still to help someone else. A part of that is probably my people pleasing the pirates because I have a lot of compassion and because I’ve been in a lot of dark places in my life. So to see someone else in a dark place where they need help. It just it hits me in the feels I can’t help it. You know I just I want to help in any way I can. And that’s a beautiful quality that you would think that witnesses would have. But they only help people conditionally. So exactly yeah yeah. You know my my husband was interested in going into this nondenominational Christian church. And my sons grandparents are a part of this church. And you know we we went there Father’s Day last year I went for him as a part of his apology I guess you know. And I have never felt more love from any religious organizations but this is not. It’s not like your normal church you know. It’s like your normal church policies where there’s there’s no white rank and file there. These people are just treated like a person. I was hit my vape my cigarette they drink here that I have tattoos. They don’t care that my hair was purple. They didn’t hear that you know they they just they were just like hey you were just happy you’re here. Tell us about yourself tell us about your rights. Is there anything you need. How can we help you.

[02:04:53] And yes Jimmy spoke very Yongs about how these worldly organizations are supposed to be so horrible and evil and how we are supposed to avoid them at all costs. But hell these people didn’t know me from anybody and they reach out a hand and a railing embraced me and more just from day one just nice down to earth people there is nothing fake about them. But this organization who raised me who saw me from the age of two grow up into a young lady into a grow to a young woman who who should have had some sort of emotional investment in me because they’ve known me since I was a baby you know how they have absolutely nothing to offer me. They have no they have no assistance they have no help. They have no not even a nice pair not even a house. They just pretend like at any minute just to get off of them you know it just it just shows like the parallel. It’s everything I needed to know for me to finally leave and just say I’m done. You know and there’s consequences and so be it. But I feel like if my story can help one person who is on that fence about whether or not they should meet who is having doubts who’s experienced anything like what an experience has had their sexual abuse or domestic abuse covered up that is an organization whose parents were told not to go to the police. It was made to feel like everything in her life was their fault. If I can help one person to overcome until less alone it’s worth the consequences because I’m going to walk in my truth today and I’m gonna be free and my true.

[02:06:39] And I don’t have to be afraid of them anymore. Her Yeah you know it’s it’s very wrong. Yeah. You think that riding your allegiance to this organization to this cult is going to give you some deep and personal spiritual connection that you’re going to rise up and feel like you have this conscious contact with Jehovah like he’s truly reaching his holy spirits out you know out there. You’re you’re being showered in it. In fact it’s quite the opposite it’s not until I left completely and finally said enough is enough that I felt any sort of spiritual freedom. And I just I would hate to think that there’s someone out who is scared and you know didn’t get that help because I didn’t speak out. You know what I mean not only understand. So then let me give you the chance to speak out again if you could say anything to your family and friends that shown you or I mean let’s face it you know there could be consequences even of this conversation. You know so let’s say you have a last chance to say something to these people what would you say. I would say I love you and I forgive you and no matter what you ever do I’m going to love you. And you know I’m really sorry that you can’t feel the same way about me my love. I refused to put conditions on my last. And I hope our hope is that if I really prayed like that that I would pray and petition that maybe they wake up and do their own research beautiful.

[02:08:21] Yeah cause I’ve had a beautiful opportunity to actually be my own person and you know I’m not sorry. I love them but I’m not sorry. I’m just not. I’m not going to apologize for being who I am. And that even if they don’t love me unconditionally I will always love them unconditionally. Well that is that is certainly a larger love than a love that only exists as long as you toe a certain line. So you know it’s beautiful when you get free and you can learn what love really is instead of what you and I we’re taught as kids. Is there anything you know other than Well there you go. Other than that love you know is there anything that you’ve learned since you left that that’s really made your life better. Just that I don’t I don’t have to be ashamed of who I am. I don’t have to hide I don’t have to live by that fear obligation and guilt anymore. And you know I mean I enjoy my life today. I enjoy celebrating my children’s birthdays and not having guilt because I had imperfections I can embrace those imperfections today and not criticize myself constantly and I’m just I’m a happy person. I’m very happily married. You know choose what the rest of my life. He supports me unconditionally. He loves me unconditionally. He loves my children unconditionally. I’ve never had that type of love before. Had I stuck in that organization and been put into another arrangement of marriage I probably would have never felt that. And so I’m grateful for the life I have today.

[02:10:15] I don’t I don’t regret one bit of it and honestly being the person that I am today and being grateful for that person everything that I went through in my life led up to me being here at this moment right now. So there’s no point in me saying I would have changed a thing. You know and you know if I’m accept no that makes total sense. Do you have any dreams anything that you’re wanting to do here in your free life. Well yes I do. Well my husband and I are on our own business and we are on a carpentry business. He does remodeling restoration. He likes to build furniture and use reclaimed the word. So we’re working on that and working on building Nadda so that it’s something he can be independent with. And also I am actually working with that non-denominational church right now on some outreach programs for we do a lot of work with people in our community. Some of the ladies they they actually take like all recycled plastic grocery bags and they make sleeping mats for homeless people. We cook we take food out and feed the homeless population as much as we can downtown. We collect blankets socks hats coats shoes get together things that are kind of necessities like hygiene packs for people. And you know I feel like that’s important for me to give back. It was something that I never would have done had our state a Jehovah’s Witness because they doubt you know they do not care about their community they don’t truly care about humanity. If your inner circle is here their babble great but even then you’re not going to have any type of outreach.

[02:12:06] If you’re if you’re working that minimum wage job because you never went to college or struggle to make ends meet because Jehovah’s Witnesses tell you that you don’t need to put your faith in anything of this world could you. Now the end is near for like 100 years now. And so you know you’re not going to go to them and say oh yeah can I go to the food pantry this month because we’re running a little short on fuel or is there any way that the organization can help us pay rent because otherwise we’re going to get evicted with our kids. You know those kind of things. So my my guess at this point is to open and run a halfway house for four families that are struggling with addiction and who are trying to rebuild their life to give them a halfway point. So once they get clean and sober and so gives them a place where they can come with their kids and they can get back on their feet in making and have resources with help finding a job and learn how to budget and manage their money so that they can save and eventually move out on their own and live with their own life. Clean and sober. If I hadn’t had people tell me how to do those things and show me and help me I wouldn’t be here today. So I want to get back in that aspect. And also I am proud of my five year plan as my husband’s business grows is to open a rescue for animals. Probably more for dogs than anything however any animal farm.

[02:13:38] I’m not to make a rehabilitation center for animals you have either been tossed to the side or put in a kill shelter. Those are my two passions right. So helping the West fortunate I suppose because I was that less fortunate. And someone stopped to help me and I feel like it’s the least I can do to give back. And and candid I guess put my own good karma out there in the world for those who reached out to me and helped me in and I found a real passion in a real naks were really like helping people. And I’m really that I it. So I’m not beautiful. Yeah it helps me heal. It helped. It helped me heal a lot to her to get out of myself. Like I said get out of that victim’s stance and stand up and say I don’t have to be a victim anymore I can help other people. And I can and look at me I’m leading a better life. You know I’m not going to let that warming anyone’s. This is pretty cool too. To see that you know out of all of this you know all the trauma of all the drama all the everything you know that you’ve come out of it and you know as this strong woman who can live her own life you have your own family. You’re wanting that you are not only wanting to help others but you’re able to help others now and that you’ve taken your life back. I mean that’s that’s what’s leaving any of these cults.

[02:15:17] You know unfortunately there’s they’re shunning that comes along with it but it’s not just about the shunning there’s so much there’s so much more that that that we get on the outside and away from all that toxicity. And know now you have a chance to to make your life what you want it to. You know instead of looking forward to some promised paradise in the future that she’s delaying you know you get to have those things now and that’s awesome. I mean it’s like well here’s you know it’s yeah. You know since I’ve reached out like a whole family. People have been shown who they treat me like family. They treat me like better than any person in their religion everyday. And it’s so nice to have that network of support. And you know like I know we touched on this already but it’s not as scary to be Sharon when you find out that you can take your life back and maybe you can reach out and have that individuality. It’s not a state anymore. It is when you realize you don’t have to be alone to them to exist. In fact you’re not doing anything about existing in that position. When you come to the realization that you can have ontogeny and that you can kind of when you take your power that it’s not a scary anymore to be shown. It’s really not because there is a whole other life out there. People who are a hundred times more compassionate loving and caring them than the people in your organization ever were turned out as a blessing in disguise as being shown in mine. I agree I agree. There’s a few things in life are all good or all bad. You know being shunned by your family missing those people that is bad and that does hurt.

[02:17:19] But there’s I wouldn’t trade the benefits on the other side for that ever. So yeah exactly. I totally agree. As always I want to thank Kacey for being brave enough to speak her truth. It’s not easy to do so especially when that truth could cause problems for yourself. But in the end that’s what Jehovah’s Witnesses taught us to do right. Don’t be mad because we’re taking a stand for what we see is true. You taught us to do that. So good for Kacey for doing so if you’d like to leave a note of encouragement for Kacey. You can go to shunnedpodcast.com and you’ll see her episode at the top of the episodes page. Please do so for all the brave people that face their fears and tell their stories. We were all taught that if we were to go away we should at least do so quietly by the cult. So you know it is kind of reminiscent of what any abuser would tell their victims. You know you can go away but shut up. Well one way to speak up is to show support for the guests here. Another way you can show support is to leave us a good review on iTunes. It helps give legitimacy to the show and helps us rise up in the rankings so that other people can find us to of course. This show does cost money to produce and you’ll notice that the transcriptions are out now for each new episode due to the mazing donors that give as little as a dollar a month to the show through Patreon.

[02:18:50] Our numbers of listeners continue to grow and having those transcripts helps us to get traffic to the site and then traffic in turn turns to new listeners. So if you’d like to help financially you can do so at patreon.com/shunned. In fact this month I have two new patrons to thank. I’d like to give a thank to someone called Covert Fade and also to Zachary and their families for signing up again. Every dollar helps. Putting the money back into the podcast and the more that there is the more I can do speaking of Covert fade. Some of you may know him on Twitter. That’s where I found him as well. He’s been kind to the shunned podcast himself and he started his own podcast calledJ.W. forward cast again that’s JW forwardcast. One word you might want to check that out. Pretty cool. Speaking of Twitter some of you that follow this podcast actually follow it on Twitter and Instagram well for all this time. My wife Jenny has been making most of the initial post and then I’ve joined in at times when needed or private messages with friends and things like that. Well now she is taking over all that. So if you go on to Instagram or Twitter that’s my wife Jenny and I’m really happy to have you know somebody that supports me in all this. It means a lot. And you can support her as well by stopping by and saying Hatsu you on those platforms. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram as shunnedpodcast one word.

[02:20:33] You can also find my new VIDcasts on YouTube under the same name shunnedpodcast. Again one word just put out two new episodes of that in July 1 about comparison and one about how the cult stole our problems. In fact that the latter one had an article in it from the great joho. So shout out to Joho who is an online friend of mine and who wrote that article. So subscribe there and you’ll get new videos as I produce them. If you want to hear my personal story you can find it by listening to the podcast called This JW Life. Also found thisjwlife.com if you want links to anything mentioned here you can find all of that on the show notes you can find the show notes either by going to shunnedpodcast.com and going to the post for each episode or you can probably just on whatever podcast your app you’re using. You can just look at the description and that should have the notes. You probably noticed that we have a new theme song. Day one of our Instagram friends gave us a song to use called no hell yet so no hell yet is the song and her name on soundcloud is fair voyeur. She has other songs as well that you can listen to so I’ll be sure to link it the show notes. Is this the song that she gave us. And you can listen to more of her music there as well. So thank you so much to her for sharing that all right.

[02:22:01] So this is where I usually tell you something about the next episode instead I’m going to tell you that you’re about to get a lot of new episodes. For the next couple months I’m going to be doing some extras. I have an episode coming out in mid August at some point from a former witness that has a book coming out and I have a regular episode coming out then afterword at the beginning of September as per usual with another former witness. I then have a special interview that I’m doing with someone that was formerly of the Amish faith that will come out in mid September ahead of a big Amish conference. And right after that at the beginning of October we’ll have another regularly scheduled episode coming out by another ex witness so that a one a month you’re about to get five podcast episodes in short order for some special circumstances and then we’re going to get back into the regular swing of things. So watch out for the new episodes. If you’re not subscribed go ahead and do so so that you get them automatically. And as we end them all go into the world and love others do no harm and go be happy.

Episode 13 – Fernando Is Shunned By Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:13] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we get to hear stories from people that have been silenced by controlling religions. I have a bunch of things that I’d like to talk to you guys about today but I’m going to save most of it until after the interview. There have been some exciting happenings here in the land of the show. And I’d like to share them with you so be sure to listen all the way through the podcast and I’ve got some interesting things I’ll tell you at the end. Today we’re going to learn about Fernando and what it’s like to live in the cold of Jehovah’s Witnesses but we’re also going to learn what it’s like to grow up knowing that your sexuality is condemned by the very faith that you’ve you know held up on a pedestal and that has been your whole life. So let’s just go ahead dive right in and get to know Fernando. My name is Fernando. I’m 28 years old. I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and I am Sean. All right. So then Fernando How did you come to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the first place like were you exposed to it from birth or did you. Was there a certain age when maybe your parents started studying or something. I know when I was younger they they were studying to be Jehovah’s Witnesses. But as far as I can remember we were we were in the religion so I just hope I was born into it. Yeah I mean that makes sense especially if it’s at a young age. It doesn’t.

[00:01:43] You know there’s not much difference in being born technically born and if it’s all you really know the best way I say it’s like I don’t remember celebrating holidays. So I was born into it. Yeah that’s a pretty good way of delineating it. All right then well then how did your parents become Jehovah’s Witnesses. Well I’m not 100 percent sure on this answer. If it was my aunt or one of my uncles I introduced it to my dad. OK. She she lived in Mexico obviously when both of my parents came over from Mexico or back in the day. And so she had told my dad about this organization. And from what he would tell us he’d noticed the change in her and how she was behaving differently and he admired that from her. And so she has good luck to him. He at that time was here in the States my mom was still in Mexico and he started studying with a Jehovah’s Witness here. And so when she came over then she started studying with one. And that’s when they pass it along to their children at that point. Gotcha. That that story of a a spouse you know studying with Jehovah’s Witnesses and the changes that are seen in their life. You know that’s that’s one of the things they used to always say from the platform was you know if you had a quote unbelieving spouse you know maybe you could win them over just you know through your conduct and the changes in your life.

[00:03:24] So and you know it’s funny and I never thought about this and so now is like they always try to push the message on people when they’re preaching on people that are going through something they’re suffering from a situation in my parents case. I think it was a separation and the struggle of coming to a new country and trying to start from scratch. And I think that’s what they try to hold onto not hold on to but try to get to to them that hey we were preaching of a better life for you and your family you’ll be happy. So I just feel like they find those weaknesses and people are try to at least try to get to or get through to them with that. Well sure you don’t know how much they think that they not only target it but I think that people that have those vulnerabilities at whatever point in time they happen to run across a witness. I think that that that makes them vulnerable because because they are hurting. And maybe you know looking for something better. I mean let’s face it Jehovah’s Witnesses have a pretty good sales pitch. Yeah if you you know of course they don’t they don’t lead with the shunning but they they let you know you know if you come with us essentially you know your life will be better today because you know you’ll make all these changes and then you’re going to live forever in a paradise on earth. You’re going to see all dead relatives again. They’re going to come back. Everybody gets to be perfect. So you know when there’s a problem Perito Yeah it does sounds like a fairytale that people who are hurting are vulnerable fairytales and that makes sense.

[00:05:13] So then who were you you know as a kid. What did their religion mean to you as you started you know being exposed to it. Yeah. Well you know obviously growing up in there and like you said being taught that this is the best life you can have. I was completely convinced that we had the truth and growing up in a family that was very committed to the organization and serving Jehovah through this to this group. All we could do was devote our life all of our time and any decision that we made including myself as a kid you know obviously you have to be different. And so I had to sit people who are not in their organization that I was different and then bring up this you know tell them why. And that where they can join as well. So I was just completely convinced that we have the truth and that we were doing everything that we had to and that we had to get the message out. Yes so then what did what was the world view. How did you see the world around you. You know obviously you were different. That is a big thing for all of us. How did you see the world. What did it make you. How did it make you see the world. Well this is where I just think it’s fucked up because what I think we know looking back now what I thought about everybody was that everybody outside was helpless. They were in despair. And we had all the answers that they needed even though we were lying to ourselves.

[00:06:56] We didn’t have the answers that we needed at times but we had everything that they go through this organization. And they needed me to go tell them and after me trying to get to them or preaching to them and you know they decided not to go along with it or they weren’t interested. At that point the point of view of seeing them helpless and needing help turned to oh they’re evil. They must be some same people because they don’t want to hear the truth from God. And they had their opportunity. So that’s it. That was their chance going to be destroyed. And that’s it. They’re going to die. It’s fucking stupid and now that I think about it. And I say it out loud. But that’s that’s exactly what you’re taught. And so that’s what I always thought about people like oh I need to tell you what I have. And if you don’t agree with it that’s it. You’re a goner. Yeah. Fascinating how quick that supposed love you had for that person where you love him enough to bring something to better their life turns to almost a hatred it’s you know I love you. You said no. Well then screw you you know. Like die at Armageddon. You know how. How dare you divide the Word of God. Yeah. Yeah Jehovah brought me to you and you’re dumb enough not to listen. I mean it’s just it’s it’s so arrogant and it’s just so unloving toward the people that we were supposed to be showing love to. By going to their doors Yeah definitely. So then what was your childhood like. Let’s start at home.

[00:08:36] What was what was your childhood like there. Well you know I I always I like to think that I had a good childhood. You know we were always busy like I mentioned our growing up my dad was growing up in the rankings. Like I like to say in that organization he was a Ministerial Servant. My mom became a regular pioneer. He eventually became an elder. No I was still a kid and you know we were just always busy with that. But at the same time like I said I like to think it was a good childhood. But inside I always felt like I had to keep keep up maybe or keep proving myself that you know we are that good family in the church that we have to be even since being a kid my dad would tell us that you know we were the children of an elder and that everybody in the organization was watching how we were behaving. We had to be the example and how you know our actions as a family is also what helped him get to that position and sort of help them stay in that position. We have to continue this act of being a good family which I mean no no family is perfect. I can’t say that there is any crazy situations. Right. I mean it was just an act that we had to put forth. And so that was basically me I’m home as a kid was like OK what I have to do next to keep up with this is just exhausting as a kid. Yeah yeah. Say no pressure. Yeah.

[00:10:15] And the youngest youngest of three boys. So anything that they did and my older brothers that I had to do better more ten times harder I could see that I could definitely see that. Yeah I also kind of shows you you know from the beginning that is it’s all about appearances. Yeah everyone is watching you. You have to set the example. It’s just about what you put on on the outside. So then what about at school. You know how did how did people treat you at school or you know how did you feel at school. I know being a Jehovah’s Witness at school is not easy no definitely not. But like I said before you know I was comments I had a truce. So like I said we were taught to show that we were different so I tried. I tried to show that I was different. But at the same time I wouldn’t try the hardest at school. I know that they would tell us they’d like either books that they can see reading during lunch that they can ask questions about the book. I never did that. But I you know I definitely was kind of in my own zone at school. I tried to talk a little bit to everybody I knew that I couldn’t be friends with anybody at school so I never really tried to make any strong connections or friendships because we were allowed to have friends outside of the organization. And I would just try and I always honestly wouldn’t try to touch the subject of religion as much as I thought I had what was truth.

[00:11:48] I didn’t want to be pushed or pointed out at school for that I don’t know I just that when there’s a big twister because I was torn between wanting to be good and not being one like being the point or the subject of laughing or I don’t know the whole thing of being different than that your peers at school is definitely out. Anything that any kid wants or no nobody wants to stand up for the wrong reasons. Exactly. At the same time you know I had to explain to the people of death when they saw that I didn’t celebrate holidays because even from kindergarten or first grade you would have to leave during holiday projects or events. I would go to a library or if they had to color a snowman or Christmas stuff I had to color a racecar. And so it’s just like whole explaining to the kid that explaining to the teachers and some teachers not liking it. Some teachers being ok with it it’s a lot to deal as a kid. So again this is that whole thing of trying to keep up and being exhausted all the time. Yeah it is. It is a very tiring life to have to play this. It’s like you were given a role to play and you had to play that role everywhere you went regardless of how you felt about any of it. Exactly. So then what about at the Keenum Hall. How did that how did you feel at the Keenum Hall. Were you one of those kids who you know was all INSA given the talks and going out and service everything and knocking on doors or you know how did you feel about it.

[00:13:35] What was your progress like there. Well actually at first that was before the age of white taking on responsibility. Yeah I didn’t mind it at all. I did not mind it at all. I was like OK let’s go do this. But I always thought about it as a task like just get it over with. I wouldn’t I wouldn’t like be upset about going preaching and stuff. But at the same time I was always on edge. I remember as a kid hearing brothers giving talks about how our meetings were an oasis from the world and how that’s where we are after being exhausted. We go like retards spiritually and get ready for the next week or whatever. I never felt that I was always like well at school sometimes I feel like the kids were awesome and over here I feel like you guys are all either jerks or judging everybody but I always consider myself a spiritual kid and that was making good progress. And like I said this was like before getting baptized I guess because I got baptized 11. So I guess before that I was pretty good because I did not do much. But after that is where I was more on edge and I was more stressed out. I was even more exhausted or keeping up all these appearances basically because also inside I knew that I felt desperate that I didn’t agree with this but what else did you do at 11. So what then were you not agreeing with at the time.

[00:15:10] What were I always find it interesting to see what it is that you know makes you feel different about it. You know when they’re younger what was it for you well I just couldn’t even though I believe we did have the truth. I disagreed with the fact that we can’t be certain that everybody else is practicing religious religion just as zealous as we are that they’re wrong. I couldn’t believe that these people who are actually living decent lives and they’re not hurting anybody they’re not hurting themselves. There’s no way that God is going to destroy them. For them trying to worship God just the same way that we are. I never that never made sense to me. Like what if they’re reaching the same the same ending just a different path. Right. But there is no way. And based on what I saw it saw some of the kids were great and even like adults some adults were great. And sometimes I would hear even my family talking shit about other members of the organization like this is it a loving organization. It’s like remember one time at dinner they were talking I don’t remember who they were talking about but they were talking about a true family. And I think one of the kids was going through some hard time so there are obviously a lot of rumors that all the conversations that were happening and were talking so much shit. My older brother my middle brother she said What are you guys doing like at the dinner table. He said this is what we should be doing.

[00:16:45] However he came up to grub and be an elder so he just follow the same path it’s this whole thing of like judging other people and judging within the organization as well as like. So you’re telling me these people are outside of the organization are wrong. But people in the organization are also wrong sometimes. So how do we have the truth. Everybody’s wrong. Exactly. Nice. I guess we are the only perfect ones I guess are family but we’re not. That’s the biggest thing that stood out to me. This is like all the judging judging people within an hour. And that makes no sense. Yeah the judging is very serious. As Jehovah’s Witnesses we judged we judged everybody we judge everybody at the Kingdom Hall and like they would always have talks about watching our associations. And I remember when I was a kid that they would talk about it more. It seemed like at least to me more from the aspect of you said watch your associations with those on the outside of the organization. But as time went on it seemed like they got more and more to where they were like yeah yeah yeah it has to do with people on the outside but also we better we have to watch out even inside the congregation there could be ones who are bad associates and you just start getting to a point where you just can’t trust anybody actually. Who do I talk to. Yeah yeah just talk to yourself. But then again you can’t trust yourself because the hardest treacherous and who can know it’s so weak. So yeah they just get paranoid and every which way. So just read the Bible. Just read the Bible all the time well just read the Bible and read their publications that explain it.

[00:18:36] Yeah. So then so you say you got baptized at 11. Yeah. How did things I guess. Well I’ll ask you first you know how did things progress toward baptism like I guess why at 11 did you get baptized. Did you feel pressure or you know externally or internally. Yeah. Well you know like I said I was the youngest of three boys. I think my older brother got is 13. I think my other brother got back at 13 to 13 12 or something like that. And so after seeing them all think Oh man I’m getting left behind. And like I said it was like I wanted to be that spiritual kid that did better than my siblings and I had to prove that I was better. And you know they did. I don’t like to say that I was pressured into it but other kids my age were doing it and I was asked maybe three three times if I was thinking about it. So I mean I guess I was kind of pressured but I think it was more within myself of trying to keep up. Like I said before with the family right. That makes sense. Everybody was like already movin up I’m like oh man I’m still just the publisher. So let’s go ahead and do a lifetime commitment to love and let’s get in the water. So that’s that’s what happened and that’s what was on my mind when I decided to do that. Right.

[00:20:12] There’s you know there’s overt pressure which would be you know sometimes you know parents as I know parents have done this where they really do put pressure on the kid to get baptized constantly. Yeah and that’s awful. But there’s also this this covert pressure which is just this looming expectation. You know we all knew within us that especially as kids that at some point we’re going to have to do this thing we’re going to have to get baptized and then you start seeing other kids around your age or you know getting baptized maybe a little bit older or whatever but kind of start setting your own expectations too even if it’s not from the outside. You know if you if you hold off on the baptism it’s frowned upon too like there is this one girl at our Hall who I think it was already past like maybe even a month of high school and she hadn’t got baptized and things are said about her are so unfair. There is so firmly. No she’s not taking this lightly which is a good thing. Now that I think about it. But things that were said about her like oh why is she not getting baptized. I wonder what she’s doing at school. Or you know maybe her parents that didn’t have enough focus on her and her you know raising her or stuff like that. And that’s so unfair and so unfair about it now because she was I mean I don’t even know she gave out prizes and there are not. But I mean this is not a decision you take lightly. And obviously as 11 year old you don’t think about the consequences if you can’t stay within the organization because that’s one of my biggest regret. I would not have gotten baptized.

[00:22:00] I would definitely not and I would try to tell everybody else not to. Well until you’re older I really think the dark side of this decision is well sure that’s something that should not be allowed for kids do. And what’s crazy also is that Jehovah’s Witnesses bash Catholics for Baptists baptizing babies. Well how is this any different. Yeah. Children you know that have no real concept of the ramifications or the seriousness of it. Many of these people who are getting baptized are still playing with toys. So yeah Jesus didn’t get baptized till he was 30. But for some reason they have to push kids into it so to get them to keep the numbers up in the orientation. Got to get more members and ropa men. So then how. So after you got baptized how did things kind of progress. You know from there you’re 11. So how did things go from there as you went through you know your teenage years into young adulthood. Yeah. Well you know once I got into injured teenage years as soon as I could. Well my dad I guess I should admit that he was very active and helpful. And so my brothers were and Paul Bill. And so as soon as I could. I signed up. And here we were going to build almost every other weekend along with preaching and Family Study. And so we were always keeping up with that. We were on the landscaping crew which was hard work for like 13 14 year old kid. Yeah especially out here in Oklahoma and summertime it gets ridiculously hot.

[00:23:43] Also assemblies we volunteered to help with parking. We got there the day before for set up and clean up and we also helped during the whole thing to help with the cleaning. And so honestly I didn’t pay much attention to them because I didn’t have time because I was busy before during and after. Also as soon as I could I began auxiliary a pioneering auxillary really. I don’t know if I’m saying that right. I usually say that Spanish John Kerry pioneer Yeah. And so you know after that after a few months of doing that as soon as I could I became a regular pioneer and that was just a whole nother level of stress because you know we had to dedicate 75. It was when I became one 75 five 70 hours of preaching a month. Yeah they’ve changed it several times but it’s somewhere around there. Yeah. So you know now I was a pioneer at this time I think my brother was working on being a ministerial servant and my oldest brother was already one and my dad was the head elder of the congregation. And so at this time I also started thinking you know something is different about me. What what is making me feel different. And so you know the teenage years where you try. You kind of start discovering yourself a little bit more and so that’s when I started realizing you know why I’ve been feeling different all these years because I was gay. And so that added a whole another level of pressure. A whole nother level. Stress because obviously I knew that that was not acceptable.

[00:25:28] And so I think I was trying to push myself to do the most to counter that you know because I knew that I was doomed. Basically it is my waist because you know they say we don’t hate the gays but they can’t act on it or they can’t do anything else. Right. Right. You can you can you can have you can be gay you can’t act on yeah being gay or what you like. Like it’s OK to be it mentally but you can’t actually like ever express that in any way. Exactly. It’s really a mess. Yeah it is. And you know it’s the same thing about any other what they call sin like they hate us and they don’t hate the sinner basically right. But as soon as you commit the sender out like this I mean you are you are things that offend us and keep the elders right. Tell them what’s going on. But you know I always knew that I was like oh my gosh if I start talking about this to anybody you know within the congregation if you know something you’re supposed to confront the elders of your friends confess to something to you you know bring it up to them. Right. And so I was busting my ass trying to like make up for the fact that I knew that I was wrong on this aspect. But at the same time during my teenage years I did start watching porn. I discovered masturbation which was also things that are not allowed right. Every teenager does exactly. So I mean I came to the point where it was like OK let’s work even harder like double year.

[00:27:07] So then came along even preaching Saturday preaching. And I was I was I took middle school assignments. I took home school and school for high school and you know my parents gave me that option if I wanted to become a regular pioneer and that’s how that started. So I have really so. So they let you homeschool because you agreed to spend your time in the ministry. Yeah. Wow. Wow. And this was attending. Is was a bad school. It was one of the like drugs gangs. And you know that’s just the part of the city where we live and you know I really started seeing that in middle school. But I wanted out of there. I didn’t want to be there. And so I agreed to it. They wouldn’t take you out for your own safety or because you were exposed to bad things but only if you would agree to pioneer well that’s how it was presented to me. So I guess not. I just find that I just find that funny. You know it’s part of the witness way. It’s not a person. It’s about what the person does or whatever. So you know here you are their kid. And instead of taking you out because they’re concerned for your safety or even your your you know spirituality you know said air quotes spirituality because you’re so you know around these people who might be bad influences. They were more concerned that you spend more time knocking on doors for that organization than about her well-being. Exactly. And I think it was all about keeping up the appearance.

[00:28:46] Yes. Because I mean I guess they were getting to a point where we are all on the same page as family. We’re all working hard. We were all doing the most. So what can we do to send out even more. Yeah that’s how I felt about it. But once I started like into realizing I was gay and I started watching porn and discovering masturbation so I was doing that as well. You know I really started because there was always a conflict in my head. And you know I always felt like that I really fell into depression and I don’t know if I was just good at hiding it or everybody was good at ignoring it that it was never really had. Maybe a few times like Are you OK. That’s all I got. Yeah but also there’s no time there’s no time to ask because you’re always busy because lit the only night of the week that I have free was Thursday’s that was the only night that I had to up to do for myself. It felt like to me. Yeah. And so I don’t know if they’re I don’t know if they notice it or I don’t know. It crossed her mind or they’re just ignoring it to keep up appearances and accommodation but that that started to weigh down on me a lot in the teenage years.

[00:29:59] Well yeah I mean being a teenager is hard regardless of what’s going on in your life and then you know add add in something like you know being gay in the organization has to be has to be doubly hard because you know your sexuality isn’t something that you that you choose. You know I didn’t choose to be a heterosexual I just am but whatever you know it’s not. There’s no choice to be made there. And ans it’s such an integral part of who you are that you know to be told to feel like you did you probably didn’t just feel like something you were interested was wrong but that you were wrong. Yeah because it’s personal. It cuts closer than you know a person that’s I don’t know maybe as a little bit of a shoplifter or something like that that gets caught and gets disciplined in the congregation. You know they can stop shoplifting actually you know. But but this is this is personal. And so I’m sure that that added so much more pressure and then you know you’re in this family that’s you know you all we’re like I mean I don’t know your congregation but in any normal congregation you all would have been you know the superior family. You know that father the Pioneer Mother the kids that are all reaching out you’re doing all the things which is all they really care about is that you do all the things. Nobody nobody ever asks you in the organization who you really are as a person. They’re just concerned with what you do. And so that had to have just been tremendous pressure definitely. And it was an I never really thought about it because I knew no different until the teenage years. And so that’s that’s where I really like I said that’s when I noticed I started noticing. Right.

[00:32:15] And then like you said it sounds like you were kind of doubling down like you know. I know I’m doomed from a witness standpoint because I’m gay but maybe if I can do enough things in the organization. Did you think maybe like you could make up for it that way. Yeah yeah I sure did. I was like well you know maybe when God looks at my history they notice that I did a lot of things. OK. Right. Right. Hey look at least this guy has a good heart. He’s trying to do the right things. Yeah right. So then you know how did how did that progressed you know you did a homeschool thing. Did you how did life progressed after that. Well I mean it was well for. It took me years to finish by the way because it was hard it was hard than I am not one for education but I have also never thought too much of it. Sure. So that was put on the backburner for years until I finish it off later. But obviously we weren’t encouraged for college because it was frowned upon you know partially from my dad being an elder. Like oh we heard when somebody went to college from him. So I didn’t pursue any further education. I don’t know how it is in I don’t know if it’s like a Hispanic culture or an organization. I don’t know how it is. I didn’t know that it was different but you know you weren’t supposed to move out of your parents until you were intent to get married in a way just because they thought Oh here.

[00:33:58] So you know that’s easier for you to fall within say. That makes sense. I mean I don’t know Hispanic cultures typically the families are very close. Yeah. And so you know I didn’t move out. I obviously wasn’t thinking about getting married because I never thought about that as an option. Right. You know I was just very involved and I get busy. I get very busy in the organization at this point. I think maybe 19 or 20. Yes about 19 or 20. I think that’s when I was announced as a minister of as well. So I was a regular pioneer. I was a minister celebrant so and everybody else besides I was doing great. No I was active. I even went down to New Orleans to help with the Katrina you know rebuilding. Right. But as much as that that made me feel good. The Katrina rebuilding Glamis you’re doing some good. Sure. But I also didn’t feel content. I wasn’t full of this love and happiness that the organization promised and I think it was with the fact that I knew that I was wrong in their eyes for my sexuality. And so I didn’t know how to express myself. But in those days or so I really started working. I am an artist. So I do art on the side. And I really started doing some artwork. And now what I look back a lot of mine color is what I chose were black red and white and I have a bunch of pieces with these colors so I just started thinking of ways to get kind of express myself through that.

[00:35:54] And so for example one of them it was a face and there’s tape over the mouth and it’s so on. And there’s blood coming out of it. It was very dark and gory at the time. Right. But I didn’t even just over these to my family because of what the hell. What the hell. That’s almost so perfect representation of being shunned. It just struck me yeah yeah. And that one sold that one sold in California so it was their home. But I really started falling into my artwork. I was up till like I don’t know 2:00 in the morning several nights just working with my headphones on and just trying to get. I was looking for an outlet basically. So that was it. That was how I expressed myself when I couldn’t tell anybody how it’s really going. Yeah. Yeah I can I can I can see that as quite the expression you know whether it’s being shunned or being gay whatever it is that you can’t express that’s that’s really that’s really poignant. You mentioned I have to go back to something you mentioned you mentioned that you worked in the contract Katrina aid when you went down for that. I just have to ask did you did you ever. I don’t know if you ever knew who you were helping rebuild for or not. Did you ever work on anyone’s home or whatever that wasn’t a witness. No.

[00:37:18] There were eyewitnesses all the ones I know yeah they mentioned a story that they helped some person after they were done with the witness house but that was a one time thing that I heard about because obviously they only take care of their own right. And so I mean I don’t remember them saying that they help anybody else which they never have said but before. No they don’t. They don’t usually. Occasionally they’ll have an experience and in a magazine or something of where they may be you know it’ll be those who say like they helped somebody. Which kind of makes somebody on the outside some worldly person quote unquote and they’ll make it sound like they help lots of other people other than just witnesses. Yeah but they don’t they usually just there might be somebody who lived next door who just needed a small something or maybe somebody who has shown an interest in studying with the witnesses already. So maybe they’ll stop them and then they you know get baptized or something and then they’ll use that person as an experience or I wouldn’t put it past them just to make something up but because I know myself I was interviewed on stage at like circuit assemblies and stuff. And if if my story wasn’t sensational enough they would say Oh yeah they were pushing me to make things up. Yeah. They made me do that too because I was also interviewed several times. Oh and they just totally rearranged everything and took words out that you shouldn’t use this word like was not a bad word. Why do you want me to change my point of view. Right. And you know you obviously practice with the older or the whoever’s giving you the interview before the CEO comes.

[00:39:11] And then the circuit overseer comes in and you practice with them and then you practice you know on stage and he’s like you got to change everything. It’s like. All right tell me what to say. It interesting how many times should you have to practice telling the story you know that you know that last year I went back to attend Circuit Assembly here in Oklahoma. In English one. OK. And my boyfriend went with me and he was like why is she reading off a paper. They’re asking her for her experience where her interview is like why is she reading off a paper. And I had to wait and he was like well you can’t speak for yourself here. And you know I had to write it out. I didn’t want to say it out loud during the assembly and he just shot me a look like Yeah. Anything you say they tell you to say or they tell you how to say it even though it’s your story. I never really thought about that. That’s horrifying. Yeah. And then you know I might be jumping off a topic here but I never really I never really thought about it before you know because you don’t question. You don’t question. You’re not supposed to. Right. But that just when I told him that I was like fuck like I was never genuinely me. Nobody here is genuinely them right. They’re acting they’re saying they’re taught by what this organization is telling them.

[00:40:50] And the first time that I watched the Leah Remini Scientology thing show the first time I watched that we were on the couch watching this and I had a drink every time I watch the show I have a drinker like right now just next to me just got. But I was watching you know I like paused it and it would take him away. Oh man I was raised in the cold. I was like it had never never crossed my mind never crossed my mind that I was raised in a fucking court. And I told them was like you know they would always argue that because everything that they do is open to the public according to what they say. That’s how they fight that they’re not a cult. But the fact that you can’t look for information outside of their publications the fact that they’re hiding stuff from the members who probably have a good heart and think they’re doing the right thing. I’m. That’s a fucking cold. Ed my whole point of view changed because before that I felt very cautious about talking about it. Should organizations self. Yeah. And I always I always tell people they ask me I’m like oh no I had a good life. You know it just they don’t agree with us. I had to leave. But now I just sound like you know maybe I do think I like to believe that there are good people in that organization that believe that they’re doing the right thing because I was one of them. You know they’re sincere I said but the organization itself I’m like that that’s where it lies. Yeah that’s where it’s messed up and fucked up and it’s just I want info I want to go back and I just want to shake people.

[00:42:35] I just want to say people like fucking wake up. How do you not see this but I know I know. But we didn’t like it either. You know it’s so hard that I actually believe never. I can’t believe all the things that I that I overlooked and that I I just skirted right past me. It gets me mad with myself for not seeing it and that gets me mad for everybody else. It gets me and everybody else in house. It’s changing so much right now so I try to like keep up with what they’re saying because I want to know. Like people I know are thinking right and the way it has changed so much as I did reconnect with a friend who stopped going so they would be inactive right now. But you know we were talking about this thing like they’re kind of becoming mega church like they were very against. They would talk shit so much about like Life Church and stuff. I’m like OK they’re making their own music. They’re making their own move. We like little videos and movies and they’re going with everything all mine which other than them not have enough money for publications anymore because of others. You know whatever their cases. But they’re becoming a megachurch. And before they become a mega church they’re a mega cult. Like that’s a scary thought to think about. Well that is scary because you know I saw some of the new videos rather like you know instructions from the organization might not seem logical from a human standpoint but you must not question it. So you should be trained now not to question stuff.

[00:44:15] Yep what the hell is that leading to. They have a song called Listen obey and be blessed by one of the songs they sing. In fact I remember it being one of the I think it was maybe I don’t know. I mean I may totally be off base with this but I remember when we got the new songbook I think that really one of the first songs that we ever sang was Listen obey and be blessed. And I just remember as I was singing it thinking this is messed up. Yeah yeah I was still in but that there was something about that that just seemed really messed up and you know what else is fucked up. They preached that if you are in the world living outside the organization people will say that they’re unique in that clip for themselves but they really aren’t because they’re living by the devil rules right. So if you really want to prove a point and be unique you should be in this organization. You know what that’s like we just said they tell you to shut up and listen and don’t question. If you want to be unique. Come over here and look exactly like all the rest of the 8 million members all think alike act alike. Yeah. So then let’s let’s talk about how you got to that point. So. So you’re where we left. You are like 19 ish. Yeah about 19 right. So how did this you know. How did how did this transpire to where you know you go from 19 you know this young adult. You know how how did that play out.

[00:45:51] You know you know because right now at 19 you’re not just a witness you’re kind of like an uber witness. Here are extra special zealous witness. How do you how did you what was your path. From there well. Between 1921. I just continued with the whole the whole thing. Basically the whole show. Right. I just continued. Like later when I turn 21 that’s when I was introduced to alcohol which became my friend. At that time. You know so just between after that 19 agents continued with everything just kept going get my mouth shut. Basically I still live with my parents my older brothers. I think at the time by 21 they were already married. They were both already married. I believe I got that right this whole time frame like I think back now I can’t I can’t keep track of the years. I honestly like it was a bad joke. I was going to say how much of a friend was alcohol to you. Well I can’t remember it’s all fuzzy. No it’s not that. Like really like as a child like I just the whole experience of being in this organization. It’s one big long trip. No it is. It is. I was just teasing about that but like you were saying I know you were you were you were so incredibly busy and like you so. So there’s a movie. Don’t know if you know but there was a movie called Groundhog Day.

[00:47:33] And you know the premise premise of it essentially is that you wake up and every day is pretty much the same like you just keep eating the same day and as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses that’s almost what your life is like. Because every day you’re just doing these witness activities and you’re so busy that I mean what’s the difference between this Thursday and three Mondays ago. No not really. You know the faces stay the same the places stay the same. Nothing really changes that much. So it is hard to remember a lot of times what happened because it was just a big blur of the same. Yeah. You know that’s that’s hard to explain to people that have gone through that through this because I never really thought about that when to have mentioned that. Like out on my weeks with the same how much the separate them. Yeah I never thought about that until now. Yeah it kind of keeps you in a state of being numb. Yeah yeah that’s it. Yeah. It’s like either I talk here or talk there. You know taking the group out for service every weekend is the same thing. Yep you’re studying the same material over and over just a little bit differently you’re changing experiences. But yeah it is just the same stuff over and over it never changes. That’s funny. But getting back to your question you know yeah I turned 21 I started drinking quite heavily. Obviously people didn’t know or my parents didn’t know at least. Sure. I started to befriend people in the organization who are kind of on the same boat. And now that I look back I think that we just all didn’t agree with what the organization was teaching.

[00:49:29] And we found an outlet in alcohol that makes sense. Yes. No we’re not we were all together drinking we would have house parties and stuff. And yeah we did definitely overtreat when young and stupid or like normal people. Yeah I mean yeah exactly. But that’s I feel like that’s when I had the opportunity to kind of let my guard down a bit. Like when I can actually like some might be myself. I never came out to anybody in the organization as gay but if I had a question or I know jokingly would say oh that’s pretty funny that they’re teaching this or that like they just laugh it off. Right. So I think that that was just like a little outlet for us that we went through. And you know it was nice to have somebody there for that. It was a group of us that were there for this whole little you know time of the life that we were going through questioning stuff. But nice yeah. And those are probably some of the best times that I can think being in this organization. But it turned into some situations that just kinda turn into situations that eventually got to elders and it really just started a whole bunch of stuff because I don’t even know exactly what happened because honestly I would fall asleep a lot while drinking. So I don’t know if something had happened within the group. And so you know I was it was a sign that rigidness much but like I said it got to the elders and then the elders of certain people were all in different congregations. So it kind of spread.

[00:51:18] And it was several conversations that were involved. So the circuit overseer wasn’t Bob till apparently like he started jumping in for advice for the elders and stuff. Right. And so it really just stirred the pot and caused a lot of drama and they were in a way trying to protest against each other. Right. You know did they do this or do they do that. And my only answer this is when they sat me down the elder sat me down just like you know I was drinking I don’t know what they did. Here’s what I did. And that was always my answer because I was not one to throw somebody under the bus like that because one I honestly didn’t know what they were all doing and I’m not that person. So I to meet with them my judicial committee. I was announced as reapproved publicly. So from the stage obviously the let the conversation know that you fucked up but you should. You were right. I mean you know coming from this family that you know in a way I think we’re now the kind of royalty in the organization or the congregation. That was a big blow you know handle. Yeah. And so I was there when they announced me as reapproved because I had to be there from what they told me. And so I told you you had to be there yeah. They told me that I should attend and that would show even where repent was repentant of it. Gotcha. So you know that was humiliating you know hearing that from the states. How that impacts your family.

[00:52:59] Oh that was a whole another thing. You know they know hunkered down a bit a bit more. I was the only one there that they also knew that I was of age and we sat down and we talked about it my dad being an elder. He kind of was. Every time that I did something wrong it was kind of like he would slip was the role that we were talking from elder to Dad. Oh I know. Hard to know. Who I was talking to or what mode he was in. Right. But you know I came clean about the drinking. I did not come clean about the whole time I’m like watching porn and you know masturbating and all that stuff that I’m not supposed to be doing either. Right. So I did some a judicial committee about that though they asked me like 4000 times if there is more. Also I think at this time I mean I mean I was obviously sure that I was gay by you know they just basically sat me down let me know that I had another chance and that I shouldn’t waste it and that you know if it came down to me not being repentant you know I mean I had to leave. And so at this house was like where you know you know I was already public reapproved. We’re good. We’re on the same page. Let’s get better from here. And so I just want to know about anything else. Sure. Yeah.

[00:54:31] And so I did feel guilty as well because you know obviously we had all been working so hard for for this organization and I felt that and everybody you know I was still living under Medad house so I think he was actually removed as an elder for a few months because I was in his house. And if he can’t you know lead his own family how can he with a congregation if you can’t control every aspect of life at some within your house how awesomely lead the congregation. Exactly. And so I was good. I was good for a few months but then I started sneaking alcohol again. I actually got to the point where I had a bottle under my bed and they just didn’t know. But it was just that whole feeling of guilt and depression and you know being gay and knowing that that’s a whole other thing that’s going to be opened some day. And so I was like I kind of gave up in no way like the best Hung’s going to the meeting was like not having a responsibility not having to comment not to do anything. So I was OK with you know being reproved not being able to do anything. It was very different. It’s like a little vacation. Yeah it was. And you know like I said I started going back to my old ways for the drinking part. And obviously the porn as well. And I actually started sleeping around a few times just to see if I was gay. Coolac well how do I know I never tried any of this. Yeah yeah that’s got to go that’s that’s got to be harder on you internally too. Yeah.

[00:56:20] Yeah I’m the type of person that I’m not saying I’m this with that or I don’t like this without trying it or I’m going to test that out basically. Right. So I slept with women I slept with men and all that. Yeah yeah sure I’m gay Yeah that’s it. This is that. So you know I just it’s a whole double life that I was leading one of my family organization and one out of it though that added a whole other level of stress as I wasn’t being honest with anybody. Right. Those that got to react to them proving. So then how did that is that what eventually led you out or how did that how did that transpire. I mean from going from a person who’s under prove you know and already looked at a certain way. In other words you already got one strike against you. And then you know you’re going out and sleeping around and trying to trying to understand yourself. You know your own sexuality. How did that how did that eventually did that. Was that what led you out. You know I had always had that in the back of my mind that I had to get out that I couldn’t just keep up with this. But I wasn’t convinced at that point that I was doing it at that time. You know also I knew in the back of my mind. I have been living with my parents all these years. I don’t know how to adult. You know all a lot of jobs were part time jobs because I had to pioneer.

[00:57:59] And so I didn’t have the money at this point I don’t think I have my own car yet. So I was like I’m not ready to leave. And so I knew that that was was one of the deciding factors that I had to leave. But that wasn’t like the defining moment yet. That makes sense. Gotcha gotcha. So then how did that how did that transpire for you. Well you know like I said it was a lot of stuff going on at the same time which led to depression. And so there was a moment where my parents had to go out of town and I was just well it was one of those days where that depression hit me hard harder than any other day. I don’t remember why it was triggered but it got to the point where I was really really down on myself and I had drinking a lot and I actually attempted suicide. One night when I was alone I chugged a bottle and I took some some pills. I found that were prescribed to my mom. And so I just chugged a whole bunch. And at the time I had talked to I had already started talking to several people like I said I had been sleeping around and I had made some friends because I knew that if I left I needed somebody outside of this home. You have to have somebody to be there when you leave. Yeah yeah. And so I told these people is like hey I say I’m drunk. I sent them attacks. I think I sent two people text I think.

[00:59:32] And I don’t think I’m drunk and I just popped all these pills like so if you don’t hear from me that’s what’s happening. It’s just it’s just ridiculous. I can’t believe I did that. But. Well you obviously weren’t in your right frame of mind. Yeah. And so you know I did. I did wake up the next day they didn’t know where I lived. I never gave them my home because I didn’t live alone. So I wasn’t giving that to anybody. But they kept calling all night. But I did wake up the next day and even remember what time. But you know my body was hurting bad and I was like wow that was stupid. And that was the moment I was like I can’t be here before I get to this point again. So November of 2013 when that happened and that’s when I decided I had to get out the next day of that you know and I was kind of trying to prepare myself for moving out. I was starting to like look for people who needed a roommate. I was looking for a better job. I had my car at this point. Now so I had a car. I just needed somewhere to stay and I would also just always try to be telling myself you know it’s OK to leave. You have always question certain things. I’m just trying to like pretty much give myself a pep talk and telling myself you know this is why you’re leaving. It’s not just because you’re gay. Right.

[01:01:09] So I always thought about like you know the teachings about the 1914 forty thousand and obviously the points of view on homosexuality and blood transfusions which are the big ones and are starting and I suppose that you know we’ve never looked up information on this. I mean I’ve never looked up information on this just because we can’t look outside of what they’re giving us. So that was always in the back of my head too. At this point at least. But I knew that I knew that I shouldn’t look outside of their stuff so I never did. Sure. So you know this is just me trying to get ready to go and that didn’t happen until January 29th of 2014. A few days before that I had deleted almost I thought everybody from it I had a Facebook now very vocal because of the drinking. Yeah. It was not healthy. I don’t recommend it at all. You know shrug I’ll fight. Yeah. So I have made a Facebook post before that they say that I was gay and I had I didn’t have any friends but somebody I worked with saw it. One of my co-workers was also a Jehovah’s Witness and he showed it to him. So I didn’t really have much time to you know Don actually get ready and come out socially OK look I did the post. So numb to it. Get it over with. Yeah. And so one day I just didn’t go to work I had to work that morning at the coffee shop. I didn’t go to work. My parents had a meeting that night and I packed my car during the day. I know my dad was at work and my mom was in service.

[01:03:01] And so I packed my car that day and I just fit whatever I could I couldn’t hit my bed. So you know and I went to a restaurant and I was driving there from like I don’t know four till nine. I was just saying that rush hour is joining me Heppell Zano like myself up we can do this. We have to do this. You have good reasons for doing that. So let’s get it over with. So when they came out they hadn’t been back in the meeting yet so I went home. And my brother and my sister in law were living there at that time. My middle one them right yeah it was them. So I got home and you know they were waiting for me they had already known because the word spread fast and also. Yeah. So he texted me while I was at the restaurant he’s like So Hazans trolls like yeah it is. Was like whoa you know you need to talk to the elders. I was like I know like I know how this works. It’s so obvious. Yeah. And I think at this point he he was already an elder. My older brothers were already older at this time so I was the only one in the family that wasn’t doing anything spiritually like out of normal. Right. I wasn’t reproved anymore but I wasn’t pushing myself to do anything. So you know I get home and he’s asking me you know if I’m if I’m planning on leaving because he saw my car he saw my room that was empty. And I said well I don’t really have much of a choice you know.

[01:04:42] You know our dad’s going to respond. And so he’s like well make sure that you if you Julie to come back soon. And so we just hugged it out. My sister in law hugged me. And so I just waited in my room because I want to be in the living room with them. Obviously after that. But I just waited in my room and so my dad comes in from the meeting and he already knows what’s going on you. I think my brother called him and so actually I am when my mom comes in first. And she was devastated obviously. You know I was a baby. I was the one that is turning my back on the truth. And I was doing. So she just hugged me. We hugged for a long time. We both cried. And she just told me you know to come back soon as well because the end is near we know how that works. Yes been there for a long time. Yeah. And so here goes my dad. He sat me down or he sat down like in front of me and he started asking me questions and key even told me he’s like I’m not speaking to you as Dad I’m speaking to you as an elder and he said I need you to tell me what has happened. Have you acted on. And I was like well I will tell you that I have acted on things are all my you know sexuality and how they act on it and I’m not changing my mind on it. And you know how it is with the elders.

[01:06:15] I don’t know why but I think what. Oh I know. My dad was an elder. OK. OK. I don’t think I don’t remember he was not but you know he started asking me for a lot of details. Yes they always want all the details I’ve just heard so many stories about this and it was so comfortable and I was like I stopped them when he started asking me details and I said hey I don’t need to tell you details I’m telling you that I have acted on this what you call fornication has happened. I need to know. Yeah. I’m like you know I am gay. That’s right. I am and that’s not changing either. And he started lecturing me again on how you know this is the organization this is the truth and how you know God is a loving God and how I am disrespecting God. And he compared gay acts on demonic with demonic acts like it was the same as demonic acts and this and not and I stopped them again. I said OK do you want me to stay the night or do you give me until morning so I can leave. And so he just told me you have to the morning. And so that was the end of act. I did not want to go into details with him because I was obviously upset at this moment he was getting upset and he was I mean as a Jehovah’s Witness kid growing up with an older dad you don’t question anything you don’t say anything against. Right.

[01:07:45] So me telling him this to his face and telling him that I’m not changing he was getting really upset and I was getting upset and I was like we need us I need to stop the conversation before I get to a point where we’re both going to regret what we say. Yeah. And I just want to say I’m sorry. I’m just I’m sorry that your dad couldn’t be your dad in that conversation. You know he should have been. It’s just it’s indicative of what Jehovah’s Witnesses end up becoming. They play these roles and these roles become who they are. And he pretty much admitted as much to you by saying you know I’m not coming into this as your dad I’m coming into this as an elder. But but you deserved you deserved a dad than you deserve. Yeah. You didn’t deserve an elder in that situation. And I’m just sorry that you didn’t get that because that sucks. I was also expressed you know that and I agree I should not have. Yeah we all. We all have been there. And I mean I had it with my dad too. He played the role too at times or whatever but. Well actually I think that’s the only way he knew how to be. He didn’t know Dad really well. There had to be they’re going to be a dad. They have to be the dad that the organization was calling them right. And what better dad than an elder dad. I know. As a rule enforcer. Yeah for sure. So you know coming up the next morning I had my car parked and I knew that that night before the day before when I came out to them.

[01:09:30] I had been talking with somebody online about getting a room at his place but I wasn’t thinking right. End of February. And so I sent him a message and was like Hey so things have happened. And I told them what happened because I didn’t want him to think that I had to be like kicked out for some other reason and not in the room. Right. And so I thought I hate this and this happens. Is there any way that I can get in to the room now. Thankfully. Thank goodness. Think of the universe. He said yes like I had a room to stay in because I didn’t sing from Jehovah. Oh God shut your face. So you think gee I guess I don’t know. I don’t think. I just think the universe Webers out there great you’re out there. Right sure. Thankfully I got that I got I had a room to stay so I could move in that day. Then next day I was in between jobs and also thankfully that I was thankful that I got somebody to come help me get bad because I didn’t have a bed or I wouldn’t have had that I should say. So he had a truck and he helped me with that over but I mean I wasn’t at this moment I wasn’t proud of weaving. I was kind of more devastated like how can you get there. You know it’s tough. Yeah. And you know I did it breaking really. It is. It is. And I didn’t know how to adult.

[01:11:06] Like I said now in between jobs I didn’t know where I was going to come up with the money to pay for rent I started a job thankfully. And it’s been a great job. I work at a credit union and I’m still there today. I have I worked hard. Coming in I think I have to make this work I guess is it and you know it’s been that’s been that’s been great my friend one of my friends that I made outside of the organization got me the job and he knew them at the time to he. And so already I had already been seeing people from the world treating me better than the people from the organization had. Isn’t that amazing. You know and it’s just that kind of confirmed my decision. And I kept calling myself as like Hey you can be yourself. And that’s another thing I didn’t know what to do with my time. I had all this free time and I was like I would be at the meeting I’d be studying for the meeting I’d be preaching what do I do. So I didn’t know what to do with worthwhile. No I knew how to grocery shop. Thank goodness I know how to do laundry but like for bills I thought the rent was owed at the. I think what it is. And I don’t know why I thought it was like out in the middle of the month or something was like laid on my rent like look or I’ve never done this I never paid rent like so I’m embroidering things so it was just a wake up call.

[01:12:47] I was like How is this ok for me not to know this and not be topless like that’s not right. Yeah. You had no preparation for life you were just prepared to be a good job. Was that was it. Yep. And so that was just a big wakeup call. You know thankfully I’ve learned sometimes by bad mistakes. But I look and I’m good. I feel a lot better about myself now. You know also within two years I think I moved like six times because I couldn’t find a stable place. So you know I’m just thankful that I had somewhere to say you know I did like two months in one places without a bed. It was also the struggle till the straw one at this time. I was also in the mindset of everything they said I couldn’t do I’m going to do it 10 times harder. So nothing I help either. No it makes sense. And they set you up for that to some extent. They tell you that the people who leave you know go off and you know do all these things or whatever you know they kind of like set up this self-fulfilling prophecy to some extent yeah. And then you kind of feel like well if I leave then either a I might as well do whatever the heck I want any time. Because I mean I’m doomed anyway or whatever depending on how you feel at the time. Yeah. Or be apparently everybody in the outside the organization just acts in whatever way they want. And so I’m going to have to at least match that so I fit in. Because again. Yeah.

[01:14:35] Nobody wants to be different. Exactly. And you know speaking of like those that forecasting that they give about your life is going to be after you leave. Right. My dad did say that he was like you know a lot of Weisler for older homosexuals is AIDS that living alone and depressed. I mean and I never told my parents that I was depressed in the house. I never told them about that attempted suicide Tuesday. They don’t know. And just because I that’s probably when I felt most vulnerable. No not that I’m looking for that was when I was most disappointed with myself that I let myself get to that point. And I didn’t want to show him weakness. I don’t want to show them weakness. I don’t want them to be right and I’m always that person that’s going to try to prove me wrong. Right. Or if you tell me I can’t do something I’m going to show you how hard I can do something. Yeah. So that was how my whole mindset and I’m not that intense. Now with that kind of sound like a crazy person back then I said How loud. But no. To be honest the way you’re what you’re discussing it right now is kind of hit me because I kind of struggled with the the intensity of being told you know like here’s what you know here’s what you can do and here’s what you can’t do. You know I wanted to prove them wrong. Really bad. I just I think it is always kind of felt that way anyway.

[01:16:17] I never really had the I guess the opportunity to do a lot of things. But yeah there’s definitely there’s definitely something there as you’re talking about it it’s just striking me that they really I know I just have to think about that more. They really do a number on you as far as the way they they they treat you and the way that they limit you. Yeah it’s and like you said right when they tell you that your life is going to be this. Yeah there’s just still trying to control your life. Now Muli or so I was set on I’m going to do what they think I’m doing or experiment with it just like them say I’ve done it from Tom had this. And at the end of the day I know I’m fine. Right. And so you know I did a lot of experimenting sexually and a lot of intermittent drinking. Right. I eventually got to experiment a little bit with drugs which I was very timid about and I don’t recommend it for anybody. But I did. I did. And you know I didn’t fall into a cycle of like abusing any substances. You know I did drink a lot. You know still to that day. And I I I honestly wasn’t happy just because everybody that I knew wouldn’t talk to me. And that’s also one thing that’s hard to explain to people who have been through this like you were born to this everybody you knew growing up. It’s like they’re strangers. No no no it’s not. They’re strangers. It’s like they died or you died. It’s worse that because. Yeah.

[01:18:09] Because because you know that they’re there right. You know this is by choice. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s why I fight like even find art to explain the great now. I don’t know how to describe that feeling. It is. It is hard. And these are natural relationships. And so you know you’ll see somebody on Facebook or something that will post something about about how much they missed their mom and their mom died like 30 years ago. You know and it’s like yeah and like there’s a an innate need to have your parents the most humans have. I’m sure there may be some who somehow psychologically don’t have that need. But I think most people have that need to have their family to have you know those those roots the people that you grew up with are your roots. And to have all of that ripped away it is indescribable. Yeah that’s not something that a person who has not undergone that I don’t think can understand it’s like every let’s say everyone you know is on a bus and that bus just went off a cliff. Yeah and one shot everyone was gone. How would you feel. You know you would just be honestly it would be too big to even comprehend for most people. Yeah. And yet that is what shunning is like it’s like everyone you ever knew. Went off the cliff in that bus but then there’s like this weird thing where it’s almost like oh you know psych. It was a prank they didn’t really go off the edge of the cliff. They just drove off in that bus and left you.

[01:19:59] Yeah. You know it’s I don’t know. It’s really hard. It’s a mind fuck. It really is. It is. And you know like you said it you you have all your life before and you have all these years of you know your route to getting stronger and. And you have this you know you know where you come from. You know why you are this way because you were influenced by this person as a kid or I have this characteristic of my mom or this of my dad. Right. But in one day that’s on. All these years all these years of all this connecting and these relationships one one fucking day it’s gone. Yeah. So you’re left in limbo in a way like OK so what where my bike where’s my foundation. So and. And I I honestly when I came out I talked to a lot of the older older people from the gay community. And every one of them every single one of them told me this. You have to make your own. You decide your own family is and it’s not just blood family. Argosy it’s like people who push you. People who make you better people who are there to listen to you. And so like I said I had already several friends that have you know close to but I definitely needed more than you know. Like everybody that you had and so it’s just basically starting starting anew. Whether you like it or not that’s what it comes down to. Right. And you and you can replace the people in that you can get more people.

[01:21:45] You can never replace the family the family or whatever you just can’t you can’t find whatever that that voodoo is the family really has that that connection. There’s something that you know you’re going to have in a family that you can’t just usually find anywhere. And I’ll say I’m starting to realize that I’m I’m I’m having myself and my wife and I’ve been out now just over two years. Yeah. I’ll say that we are starting to have experiences with people that every once in a while we’ll be somewhere with a group of people. I don’t know playing games or just doing whatever and it just kind of feels like home. Yeah. And I think that’s what we’re all missing is home because home was taken away and I don’t know exactly how you define home but yeah maybe it’s different for different people but yeah home home is gone and it’s kind of indescribable. But everybody knows what home means exactly. And I think it’s just that feeling and the Bond family. Yeah. And you know I have met someone. Well I guess I’m getting ahead of myself. KIRBY That’s a question coming up. I think I did hold up all that well look at a question if you are just a conversation you can go ahead. No I was going to say you know like you mentioned it is it’s something that I feel like myself. I’ve been out for years now. So yeah for a year. And so I keep having the urge to meet people and making more connections.

[01:23:47] Yeah I am mesmerized by people and their stories and I’m always open to like I don’t know how to describe this I guess. I keep looking for connections. Like we said before like trying to replace but as much as you try to. Like you said there’s something about family that you can’t write. It’s kind of like if you’re running on a treadmill to get to your butt you’re in your mind your mind trying to get to the finish line but you’re on a treadmill is like as much as you’re doing you’re making good progress. It’s getting you nowhere to hide. And I say that out loud because I don’t like giving. I honestly don’t like giving my family or this organization any power. No and I will never shall. I try not to show weakness to any of them. But it’s not weakness. It’s just reality. Yeah. And I know that that’s what it is. But in my head I know it’s hard to think of it you know. But I don’t know. I’ve done a lot of research on you on Friends on people trying to make friends later in life and things like that. And a lot of the research really kind of seemed to show that you know when you’re young that’s when you form those bonds that typically kind of more are going to be the ones that last forever because you have the time to do so because you’re young and you have nothing else to do. You know or because you share a lot of experiences like you’re in school with people and you’re literally there every day or with family you know you’re coming home to the same house every day.

[01:25:40] You’re you know watching the same shows you’re doing the same activities. So you know later in life it’s hard to form relationships that can match. I don’t know the intensity or whatever of those early relationships not just because they were during your formative years but also because they were during years where you know you didn’t have a mortgage to pay and a family of maybe of your own and just other things that you have to do in life and then as adults we’re all busy and we’re all doing our own thing. Yeah. And so it’s just hard to get back to that place because that was a special time in your life that you just you can’t get again. That but it doesn’t. But it also doesn’t mean that you can’t find meaningful friendships and you know have a wonderful life. And let’s face it a lot of the people we grew up with weren’t the best and were pretty toxic anyway. So you know that’s sometimes because you grow up around those people you have these ties and connections to people that are actually pretty toxic and not not really very healthy. And sometimes shunning actually or having to leave them behind can be a little bit of a blessing. Yeah I agree. I agree with that just it’s just not easy. Yeah. All right well then. So back to your story then. Yes you are.

[01:27:17] You are saying that you know so you were leaving you had left your parents house and everything and you had said you know told your dad about and everyone knew that you were gay and that you had actually acted on your sexuality. So then were you did they call you to a judicial meeting. Or what did they do with you. Well that that’s a whole thing to I forgot about that. So yeah I I pretty much blew people off when I left the next day I didn’t text friends or people that I was really close to and I let them know why I left or why I had to leave. I know Hey I just came out as gay you know. I know what that means. But if you don’t want it to mean that let me know. So I did text that to several people. And you know same response from everyone’s like you know we just you know how it is you know that we serve God and you need to come back and things will be how it was. Bubble level baso. I only did that for a few though so once I started working at this credit union and so one of the elders they were trying to call me. The elders were trying to call me but I didn’t want to to them at one point when I guess they found out where I lived my parents didn’t know where I lived. I didn’t tell them since I felt like they didn’t need to. The ones are kicking you out. They left a sticky note on my car. I woke up in the morning going and you know getting ready for work and going into work and an elder have left sticking around the car asking for me to call him and I was creeped out. I mean how do they know.

[01:29:19] You know they obviously. So I was creeped out I blew it off I threw it away as whatever. I’m not talking to them. They don’t deserve. They don’t deserve my explanation. Sure. So you know the weeks went on. Well one time coming out of work we closed and we have security guard and two of us me and then a girl that worked with me. And I was walking out from the back where recently deal and my car are three elders and this is for anyone who’s listening who thinks all know that’s real. Like they do this stuff they go like stalk you and hunt you down if they want to. Yeah I was mad I was sad I didn’t know what to do or say. So the security guard did with me. He’s like they don’t like Friends. So he walked with me and the girl that I worked with. She turned her car on and faced us like she was in her car chasing us. She’s like she told me I will run them over if I need to because she knew she knew about that whole story right. So she was in her car and the security was with me and they talked to me like you know we really we really want you to come talk to us you know think about what you do into your family with you leaving. And I said I’m worried because if I did I piko somehow and I didn’t want to leave it that way with them either. So I was like OK OK.

[01:31:01] Well we will you meet with us on Tuesday and this day I was like Okay sure I’ll be there. So that was the end of that. They left in their cars and so I just went home. I was pissed. I was I was furious. Emily how dare you just do that. So I did it. I typed up a letter and I in the letter explained that my dad isn’t elder. So I had already talked to an elder. He talked to me as an elder in his own words and that I don’t talk to other elders about it. And I said it just to make things clear when you invite people to your organization you tell them to write their churches a letter saying that you’re not going to be a part of that church anymore you’re going to be part of a part of this organization. I said well here’s my letter to you that I no longer want to be in the organization and I don’t owe you any explanations. And so I said I dropped that off in their mailbox and I found out that two weeks later with her now because I don’t interrupt me as soon as possible so I don’t want to leave any doubt. And so they are not. Two weeks later from what I heard and that was the end of that that that was the that’s what sealed the deal. So you went the disassociation route.

[01:32:23] So did my wife and I I understand because otherwise you end up you end up having to play that game with them where you know if it wasn’t a judicial committee they would have just kept stalking you and things like that is just you know it’s one of those things that that shows that they are a colt is the the difficulty that there is in leaving. You can’t just walk away. Yeah. Yeah I mean some some people can walk away. Not one I remember. Right. Right. It’s a lot harder. You know there are there are fortunate people out there that are able to do that maybe have good relationships with their family or whatever that are able to tread that line. But yeah it’s it’s not always that easy. Yeah. In fact it often isn’t. And even if you do fade a lot of times there’s a lot of games you have to play to to keep up appearances so that so that you can keep your family so that you can talk to someone that you care about or whatever. So yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s an ugly thing. So after you disassociated what did you do. Did you just go on with your life. Did you ever hear from any of these people again or. Well you know I just I try to focus on myself. After that I mean all my life I couldn’t that’s selfish and that should be your focus. So I just focused on myself. I wanted to do better. I wanted to learn how to undo everything I need to do and be responsible. Yeah. I had my first holidays with my friends family which was mesmerizing to me. What did you celebrate. What was your first holiday. My first holiday I think was Halloween fun and so we got to do a whole face painting and everything.

[01:34:27] And then after that was Thanksgiving and Christmas. So that was just a whole new world for me. And they couldn’t believe that I had never done any of that. And I didn’t know what to do I would. What what was routine here like when the alter ego. Oh yeah. What’s the protocol here. How do we know whether what do I do. And I don’t know what to do. It was just for me but you know I get out of people. The only one that tried to reach out I think was me. I’m trying to remember who. If anybody tried to reach out to me. But ok. Yeah there was one girl. There was one girl who was close to her and her husband. And they sent me a message and they just told me they didn’t where had happened yet. Like they didn’t know details and they said that you know if I needed anything to let them know that they still love me and that you know obviously if I want to come back that would be the best thing to do. I don’t think you know the story so I told them and they didn’t respond anymore. So that was it. So I mean I tried to reach out to my brothers out then Metaxa in there. My middle brother like maybe a month later it wasn’t like anything personal. It was like hey guys how this document because I mean I didn’t take anything with me. I didn’t have my birth certificate. I didn’t have some other stuff I left at home. Right.

[01:36:11] And so I don’t even know if I have my birth certificate or any. Anyway just like stuff like that and I was asking him about a cellphone I have appearance on his cell phone. And I was paying for them and I couldn’t afford it anymore because of him. Obviously I had to do everything else on my own now. And so he’s like OK that’s fine. He said no. Just stop texting me. And he said you know you need to stop sending messages because you are out. And you know how this works. But this is necessary family business right. Yes. I mean I also. Yeah but it’s only necessarily a family business if they want something. Exactly. And so I was pissed. I got a new number. I didn’t have anybody’s number. So like fuck all. Yeah. So however I did send a few messages here and there to my oldest brother and he lives in a different state. And so I would just send them messages like hey is everybody OK. And the whole way that that started was because he asked a cousin of mine for my number because he had an accident at work and he wanted to let me know. So he sent me a text letting him letting me know that he had this accident at work and so I was just happy to hear something. I started to get as you know I got a gift card for him to send to them because him and his wife are in the hospital so that they might need something to eat.

[01:37:47] You know it’s not much that I have it here it is. And you know I had already done all this and I said I’m going to send somebody Deegan’s in your address. He said Well I don’t want anything from you. I said it’s nothing personal like nothing about religion. I said it’s just some money in case you need something at the hospital and then he said no no don’t you understand I really don’t want anything from you. I said why then why did you fucking text me. Yeah. And he said Well you know I just thought that you should know. I said well why should I know if I can do anything. And he said OK well that wasn’t my mistake I guess I shouldn’t have told you and so I was pissed off at that too. Obviously I had already done getting this fucking card of the money that I really couldn’t afford. What I was doing anyway. And he comes up with shit and so we left it at that. They he had called me before that too several months before that because I think I had forgotten to pay and didn’t forget I was behind one car payment for one month and I was waiting for my next paycheck to pay it. Well I guess the credit union had that loan I guess had contacted my dad because he was a I know just to see if he were going to make payments. Oh yeah. Well he called me for that and he told me hey you need to pay your. OK I’ll get it done this Friday. So we I had his number.

[01:39:19] His is the only number I still currently have and I try to send them a message from time to time. Just asking because I have middays. I’m like How do I know everybody’s good. Are they fine. Like my in-laws like my all my family my my grandparents are still living. Our job is one as well. I have a lot of aunts and uncles and so I just I would send a message like hey is anybody OK. And he would just say yes or yeah it’s fine. So I have that communication and that was that was enough for me like that’s fine. But then he stopped responding and it was after I was at the convention where they were talking about how Chunying is important. Yes. Last year or something they had a video and they basically said that the water. Yeah if you even answer the phone you’re giving them enough to where they know they won’t come back. Exactly right. So he stopped responding of course. And so I obviously come that very irritating because now I don’t have a way to know if they’re good or not. Right. And so I sent them a picture because I now have a boyfriend a partner. We’ve been together since 2013. Congratulations. Thank you. First up kids you know three girls and a boy. Oh yeah. I saw them picture last and the kids saying Hey since we’re not talking this is my family and we’re going to get married some day. And I wanted you to know so I said on that I never heard back from that either.

[01:41:11] And then I always have like some random dreams sometimes and makes me over think everything. And so I had a crazy dream that something had happened to them. So I send a message just like hey that’s where my she gets. And he didn’t respond. So I was irritated so I sent him a link to a news report of the four dollars a day that the organizations paid to not give up these files. And so I was on the fence about sending get but at the same time think they’re already treating me like an apostate let’s do it. So I said that’s a. And I said Hey I just want to show you this. This is not apostate information. I said this is a news report about this organization that you are a part of. And where do you think the 4000 dollars are coming from. And why would they not releasing these file and I sent that him. And I didn’t get a response from that either but I mean I was the only connection we had for just last year. Sure. Just to give a little for anyone who’s listening who doesn’t know because I know not everyone is an ex witness the what he’s talking about is there’s a court case in San Diego where there was a person who was sexually abused in the congregation. And essentially it’s the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses the court and they long story short refused to get well they gave up documents that were ordered by the court to turn over but they redacted pretty much any relevant information on it. They they blacked out basically the names of anyone in these files.

[01:43:03] So that’s essentially the information that they turned over was useless. The court got mad at Jehovah’s Witnesses as an organization told them that they had to turn over those documents with less redaction. So they were actually usable and the organization refused to the tune of the court fining them four thousand dollars per day for every day that they refused to turn over those files and in fact I believe that court case just settled and they did not well I guess they probably paid the 4000 dollars a day. But it was just in the settlements. So like. So they paid it. But no you know settlements are usually undisclosed. And you keep it all under wraps. But that’s that’s what’s being referred to here. Jehovah’s Witnesses will do anything to protect their appearance and that includes redacting the names of people who might be in fact they even have an internal database of suspected pedophiles that they refused to turn over. So so so that’s what Fernando here was sharing with his dad and of course his dad’s not going to want to hear any of that. Because actually I said that’s my brother. I don’t have that number. Oh ok my bad impersonator. Yeah they’re not going to want to know that because they don’t they’re just not they’re not. They claim to have the truth but they’re not interested in the truth. So it just is what it is. And they have a lot to lose if their eyes are open so it’s scary for them. So so then it sounds like you haven’t really spoken to anybody you know any any meaningful conversation with anybody. No no nothing. Hannah sounds.

[01:45:03] That’s that’s the norm. Yeah. No. Was it last year at the end of last year. I did try to reach out to friends or people I was really close to. I sent them a letter and I sent them a message on social media. Just let them know that I know. Not trying to convince him to get out. I am but I just told them you know hey guys everyone talk or I need something or is that I honestly feel like some people are trapped and I don’t know you know because I was I felt trapped. But I did. I’m like hey if you guys ever want to talk let me know if you guys want to hang out let me know if you need somewhere to stay for any reason. Let me know that you have somewhere to be. But you know I didn’t hear back from them or anything but I like to like how is that out there now. But other than that I haven’t had communication with anybody other friends or family. Yeah that’s the extent of shunning. I mean that’s that’s that’s what they do. Well let me ask you them were whether. So like you left you know being gay was a big part of the reason that you left. Yeah. What about. Where are you. Or was there anything that maybe you freed yourself mentally already some what has helped you you know after leaving.

[01:46:40] Were there any books or podcasts that helped you or were there any lessons you learned something that that maybe helped open your eyes to the realities of what was going on there. You know because there are a lot of people that are disfellowshipped for you know issues regarding conduct. Who then still though kind of believe they have the truth as your witnesses and that they just aren’t good enough for it or whatever. Where are you in that process and has there been anything that helped you through that. Honestly for for podcasting like books. I really don’t have anything particularly that help me. I think what woke me up was just an obviously true time. Not right off the bat by seeing saying that people were good. Like just seeing that there is kindness like obviously there’s bad people everywhere. I mean we all know that. But just seeing that there’s good hearted people who are more than willing to be there for you right who you do not have the strong relationship that you had with everybody else in the past. But they are there and they are willing to help. They’re willing to come together for something better than themselves or you know to better you that that’s him he was an eye opener because we were taught people were evil and they were out for themselves. And that’s just not the case. And really we were in the organization that was evil and out for itself. Yeah exactly. And so just seeing that and get to know people and hearing their stories and sharing my story that’s what made me realize I hate this was never that true right. We were completely wrong. That’s beautiful yeah. Just just the basic standpoint of you know just good general humanity. Yeah.

[01:48:49] Seeing the kindness and love in the world looking for the beauty in it there is a lot out there and we were given a much different version than that. So like. Right. Right away. That shows you were lied to. Yeah exactly. Well is there anything you would like people that have never been a witness to know about the religion that you had and are ready. I mean stay away. No. It’s I think of it as a trial in a way and I want people to know that like obviously I don’t want people to be rude to any witness that comes knocking on your door and it’s like hey get on my property like if you want to hear them or hear them out that’s fine but just know it it’s kind of a trap. They’re going to find your weakness and they’re gonna. That’s how they planned their preaching to you. You know like when I was in charge of getting the group out and service and field service. I would always you know mention this example and you try to find out what the trigger could be from the person. I would always recommend using the subject of resurrection just because who hasn’t suffered the loss of a loved one. Right. That in itself when I realized when I was out that I was doing that that I was fighting these people the people’s weakness for where they’re most vulnerable at work and we send our message to them that it’s going to get to them. That’s that’s so manipulative and I want people to know that they’re going to try to do that to you.

[01:50:42] They’re going to try to find a weakness and then later when you realize what it actually is. And if you know obviously if you don’t get brainwashed in the process but if you are open enough to see what it is you’re going to be trapped you’re going to be stuck in a situation you don’t want to. So you know stay away. I don’t know. I mean that’s I think that’s very good advice for anybody. What about your family of friends if you could say anything to them. Is there anything that you would say. Yeah. I mean I would definitely ask my family if they’re happy. I want to ask them if they’re happy with what they’re doing. You know if they’re treating me like I don’t exist is freeing them the content that they need spiritually like are they completely happy with their spirituality at this point. Or to my friends I would ask them what did I do to you. Like we have history. I know stuff about you that could get you out but I’m not doing the you know Mike. We all have sinned. It’s just different things. So I mean what was your bases on shunning me for doing something wrong in your eyes. Isn’t that a fascinating point. Because the they essentially Heavens if they believe in God and everything they have inserted themselves between you and God if you messed up instead of that being between you and God it’s between you and them. Exactly. There are intersecting there. You know interjecting themselves in the middle of that and that’s that’s just not fair. Yeah.

[01:52:41] Rick Scott but that’s how it is for them. Yeah it is well what’s something that you’ve learned since you’ve left that that’s really impacted your life for the better. Got any any good advice you’ve been given or or as you’ve learned to to do some adult thing. Honestly I tried to take myself too seriously I am very. We like to think that I’m very I don’t know I don’t brush things off but I try not to dwell on things as much as I used to. Just because going through the whole process and you know dwelling and everything bad that that brings you down and I’ve been at the lowest. So I don’t want ever to be I don’t want to ever be there again. So I always try to think OK so this is happening. It sucks. Is it the worst thing that’s happened. No. What can we do to make it better. You know so just trying to do better. I’m trying to better looking at the bright side of things obviously not to the point where I am overlooking the bad cause you have to acknowledge that there is bad and there’s still going to be bad situation. Yeah if you don’t acknowledge it you can’t. Yeah better. Yeah and that’s it. Like how am I going to make it better. And right now I’m at the point where like I said before I’m at the point where I’m open and we will talk about Jehovah’s Witnesses because before it wouldn’t even mention their name because I didn’t want people in family of them honestly. Yeah. So it’s a big step for you. Yeah definitely.

[01:54:26] And you know I’ve gotten my story out there. I with my Arrakis I do shows and I do sales. But I started the last year as well. You know portion of myself goes to a nonprofit organization here in Oklahoma City that’s called Three mom hugs. And this is for the LGBTQ community who don’t have a place to live because they’re kicked out or they don’t have family and they’re struggling to help some aid with like mental help and coughing mom hugs because a mom who is doing this organization. Her name is Sarah and she. She struggled with her side. Who came out as gay and they were really religious as well. I forget what religion they were and it all went to say the wrong one. She struggled and she just thought he was doomed. She thought he was going to hell. And she struggled for years about it until she came to terms that this is just what I was taught. This is not what it is. And so she wrote a book about this whole story and this whole journey. And she started this organization to help other mothers you know be there for their kids and if not for them to become mothers to kids that don’t have they are people that don’t have families. And so I’m at that point right now where I want to do more. I want to do more. I want to get back.

[01:55:57] And what better way to do that than with my art which is something that I am already passionate about and I think that’s where I’m at right now and my journey like what can I do to do what can I do to show my appreciation for all the people that I’ve met and have helped me. But how can I be that person for somebody else. And that’s beautiful. And that organization you say is called Free. Mom hugs. That is awesome. Yeah. That is that’s quite a story she has there. But but like you said it really hit me was just about how you see things now for I mean you know you’re not blind to the problems in life but when you see them you try to make them better. And I know when you’re in a Colts you know what is going to make things better is whatever promise whatever carrot they’re dangling. That is what will make things better. They don’t they don’t encourage you to really do a lot of self reflection and make your life better. They want you to to chase after whatever care they have for you so that they are the people who can make your life better if you continue to follow them. Yeah. And so I just think that is a beautiful lesson too to see that really you know this life is yours it’s not it doesn’t belong to somebody else and it’s up to you to determine the quality of that life and what you know the trajectory of it is and like you said it’s like your own life. You choose where to go with it where when I first left I didn’t know what to do with myself with that time.

[01:57:43] So now I don’t have enough time now I’m busy all the time which is great because I did I did like that part of the organization where I felt like I was helping somebody yeah. When I honestly thought we were but now I feel like I’m helping like I’m I’m preaching or in their way I’m spreading the truth which is being yourself. Do you don’t with that. Yeah no. That’s great. So then you’ve touched on it somber. So what do you enjoy about your new life. Well definitely all my family right now my kids my boyfriend. They bring so much joy for no damn reason sometimes they’re just sitting there watching TV and it’s like the best moment but I’m definitely that’s one of the biggest things I enjoy. I have some amazing amazing friends amazing support team. If I have a problem their group message or a phone call away and we will get together get it make it better. And that applies both ways. If they see something where their and I love trying new things whether that be new food which I eat too much. But I love trying new things going new places. Now that I can you know because before I even make a concert it wasn’t to be frowned upon. But the judges the elders like my dad would be like well what’s around that like what is crunchers known for sure you know drugs and this not so that’s another thing I’m falling in love and live music. I think it’s one of the best things in life. I I just like experiencing and that’s when I’m enjoying the most that I have the opportunity to do that now aren’t you glad that you didn’t put off experiencing life.

[01:59:49] And still you know something that was promised and held out by an organization like Jehovah’s witnesses you know. Yeah. I think that’s awesome you know you’re young you’ve got so much life ahead of you. You’ve you’ve got the whole world really is open to you and it’s just so awesome. You know that you’ve you’ve got know family now literally. And you know this is your family you’ve chosen and you’ve got friends that you know are there for you. You’ve got these experiences to have. I mean that sounds like a beautiful life that you’re living Yeah. Is there anything that you that you dream for is there. Is there anything that you kind of want for the future. Yeah and I I obviously want to expand more of my art. That’s always been my dream as a kid. I want to have my own studio. I want to have my own shows and you know that’s one of my biggest you know goals that I’ve had and I’m working on it. It’s just a lot of work. But that’s one of the things that I’m working on that’s one of my dreams to have my own little space to have people share not just what they’re making but I want to know why they’re making it and I want it to I want them to share so that everybody else can learn from what they are what they’ve gone through because that’s how I felt about my life. I feel like I share it. Like if you have a question for me I will tell you what happened and just because everybody can learn from everybody else.

[02:01:36] And if we just saw come sharing you know our stories and our past there is no way that you cannot benefit from that. And I haven’t said it’s like life is a canvas and everybody you adds another layer of pain that makes that beautiful masterpiece. So I want to keep sharing my story. I want people to share their story. I look forward to growing old too watching my kids grow up. I dream of being on the porch with my boyfriend were old and just having a drink and yelling at kids that sit on the grass. I have I mean out I hope I dream that someday I might talk to someone in my family. I mean I haven’t taken that completely out of my head. I want to leave that as a possibility even though it doesn’t look that way. But that would be wonderful. But the most obliges I plan on living my life as authentic as I can and I’m very very upfront. I don’t like if you like my friends or family friend opinion they know it’s going to be straight up. It’s going to be that and I also dream of one day being straight up with my family and just letting them know that they’re in the wrong and that they’re blinded. I hope that happens someday. I really do how the two men I want that for all of us I want you know I wish we could all get our families to see that. Yeah it’s tough but man that’s a that’s a beautiful picture you just painted for us all. Yeah I think I think that you’ve expressed it. So beautifully.

[02:03:31] I love that what you said about life being like this canvas and every person that you meet you know puts down that next layer of paint. And and you know at the end you have this masterpiece that’s beautiful. I’m really glad you expressed it in that way. That’s a really cool way of looking at life. I think that takes care of the questions that I had you know pretty much put down but I wanted to ask you something. You said you were talking about. Well how we learn from one another and there’s something you said earlier about the gay community and how you’ve talked to some of the older ones and it’s an you know I don’t know maybe I thought it was a fairly good comparison but you know when we left the organization like I kind of honestly I hope it’s not insensitive to compare to this but I felt like it was kind of like coming out because. Because like you said none of us were allowed to be ourselves. And so trying to find our authentic selves and honestly that’s still a search on some level to figure out who you are after spending so long in the cold. But one of the things you mentioned it was that you know because you know people especially of the older generation though obviously you’re a great example of the younger generation going through the same thing. But you know a lot of them were just thrown away you know by their families. And so I’m just can you touch on you know when you speak to these ones.

[02:05:24] Is there any wisdom that you’ve been able to glean from them as far as how they’ve gone on in their lives. Because I think that they probably have some truly great insights. Oh my God yeah. For me for people like us that are shunned that’s you know maybe maybe we got there through different paths but the results the same is there anything that you would care to share that you know you think maybe the listening audience you know might benefit from that you’ve learned from them. Yeah I mean pressure. I know right. But no probably one of the biggest things I took from them is don’t take life too seriously you know a lot of them. You’re right they haven’t thrown away for coming now at an older age or you know back in the day it was harder. Yeah no. And some points they told me stories about riots how they had to stand up against police for just being gay. And so that puts my aspect about my story. OK. I didn’t have it that bad you know. Yeah it’s so you know one of these that they also took away from them is that there’s always somebody out there who has it worse and you have the power to help. So if that’s the case that’s true. And I kept telling myself that like for example when I was moving house to house when I didn’t have a bit of singing for I was like at least I have this for at least I have as we get somebody out there does not have any of us at least I have my my car I have work. People don’t have that.

[02:07:18] So that’s probably the biggest thing that I’ve learned from them is to always remind yourself that somebody has it worse and you have it good. So make the most of it. That is really profound because it’s easy for us to get wrapped up in in what we don’t have and to fail to see what we do have. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that because I think that that’s something that I think we know we can’t we can all learn from one another regardless of experiences. We all we all hurt the same and we can all heal the same as well. You know we can you can learn from one another. I love that. I’m really glad you shared that. I want to thank Fernando so much for talking to me about this. You did a great job man. I’m glad to have you as a friend now and I appreciate you being so vulnerable. I also want to make sure that I share with all the listeners that Fernando was actually a talented artist. He was really thoughtful pieces that often reflect his life. If you’d like to see what he does you can follow him on Instagram at Nando be 4 0 5. So that’s Nando short prefer Nando B as in his last initial and the number four or five Nando B 405 I’ll go ahead and link to it in the show notes. Also I will put a link on the show notes to free mom hugs the amazing charity that he mentioned. Please support Fernando by leaving him a message Shawn podcast Dom on the episodes page under his particular episode.

[02:09:04] You know we all need to support one another through this stuff. He can of course read and respond to the comments as well. As you know if you listen to the little episode I put out looking for help with supporting the show. You can also support the show by going to patriarch dot com slash fund and Sonning out there to help with the expenses of the show including some things we can do to find more people that need help. If you didn’t get that episode on the fact that I needed help then chances are you aren’t a subscriber. Let’s face it you should be. I didn’t announce that went anywhere. So go ahead subscribe and you’ll make sure that you never miss any of these the other way that I said that you can. How about leaving reviews on iTunes. I did get a few more and I’d love to get even more. Not just this podcast but also this J.W. life as well. I think I’ve had a few Jacobs leave me some one stars because of the two or between the two podcasts so let’s crush those 1 stars or some good 5 star reviews. All right so that’s enough housekeeping. Are you ready to hear what I told you about in the intro. What I said that I’d get to. So like I said there’s been some exciting things happening since my last official podcast I put out that call looking for people to support the show financially. I wanted to get some transcripts done of these episodes so that we can try to attract more people through search engine traffic and by doing so we can help more people.

[02:10:40] Well some of you stepped up and it looks like I should have enough to get them transcribed on an ongoing basis. I know I sent you all emails but I want to thank those who supported me by name here of course. First names only because you know I don’t know everybody’s situations and some may still technically be in the cult and I don’t want to give away too much identifying information. But thank you so much Adam Craig Daniel David Dirck. Matt Sherry and your families help support this. You know it really means a lot to me and someone will find this podcast and get help because of you. You may never know it. Heck I may never know it because for every person that gets help and reaches out to me I’m sure there are many others that I never hear from. You’ve done a truly good thing of course that doesn’t cover the back catalogue necessarily though there might be a little Starplus each month that I could have put towards it but then something amazing happened just two days after posting the episode looking for help. I came home from work to find two lawyer letters in my mailbox. Let me ask you how many times that you just show up at home and find a letter from a lawyer. Out of nowhere is it a good thing. Well it turns out that apparently my mom won some sort of settlement from a facility my dad was in before he died a few years back and apparently I was entitled to some small portion of that. You can’t imagine how shocked that was. My dad died virtually penniless.

[02:12:24] He was on disability because he neglected his body for so long. He ended up on dialysis. He flat out refused. My mom begged him over the years to get life insurance and he just flat out refused he wasn’t going to do it. Which is par for the course with them and ultimately he died because he decided to go off dialysis because his heart wasn’t doing so well anymore. Dialysis isn’t easy on a heart. Neither is the I don’t know 60 plus years of neglect. So I’m not really sure why she got the settlement. But as you can guess a part of that money is going to go to this catalog. I want to go ahead and use a portion of this money to get the back catalog transcribed. So thanks dad. Thanks for all the emotional abuse growing up for screaming at me on the phone for loving the gays and being an awful person because I dared to speak science over religious bigotry for shunning me not only before I left the court but also over the last year of your life and for this Chuck. You know I say that a little tongue in cheek. I mean that that is a part of the way I feel. But to be honest you know getting the check kind of messed with my mind a bit. You know it’s it’s absolutely going to support this cause that I’m involved in and that he would have been opposed to. But you know not not every person OK. Nobody is all good or all bad. And you know my dad could be fun when he was in a good mood.

[02:14:07] He would take us to ballgames as a kid. He was an intelligent guy. I mean you could sit there and watch Jeopardy or wheel of fortune or something like that and he would crush it from the couch for being as close minded as he was. He did have quite a bit of knowledge and even with his gross intolerance of anyone different than himself he did show some growth over the years and mellowed out a little bit. We had good times fishing and watching TV were the two things that he ever really seemed to get enjoyment from in life other than the adoration he would get as an elder in the Keenum Hall. My wife and I would take my dad fishing near the end of his life. I really reached out to them I tried to have a good relationship with him despite his his lack of cooperation. But in the end you know everybody wants a dad. My wife and I haven’t been fishing since he died a few years ago. So we took a portion of the money and bought fishing poles and went fishing for the first time. And that was pretty cool. We even went back to some places that we used to take him to. So you know I’m talking about this because it’s just a very real thing and it also illustrates the difficulties in this whole this whole thing. Everything that shunned is about you know to put it frankly it’s a mindfucked to have people that you are so close to shun you. It’s not true that people are all good or all bad. They’re just not. People are just people.

[02:15:41] Some are broken some are broken some are more messed up than others. Some look to grow some flat out refuse others you know might want to get better as a human but just never get the tools. So it’s I’m using money from his death to help fund my show. I felt it was right to share that on here. Now I’m going to sound like an infomercial but wait there’s more in my sincere desire to get this out to as many people as possible. I found that I could actually put my podcasts up on YouTube through the service that I pay to every month to host my audio files. So I started a YouTube channel called Sean podcast oneword. Imagine that. Now you can get my podcasts. You know as you get them normally and that’s probably best because however you’re getting them now you can probably download them and listen wherever you are. But you know by putting them on YouTube I’m finding a different audience. There are some people out there that just aren’t in the podcasts but they’ll listen to things on YouTube. So I noticed I was picking up some subscribers and that’s a that’s a really awesome thing. But let’s go more infomercial here. If you go there on YouTube and subscribe now you get a bonus. I actually did an in person video. Yes. You yourself can be exposed to my ugly mug on your computer or device of choice I’m labeling them as vid Casse so that you can just check those out if you want to. There’s a playlist there and you can just search for the video.

[02:17:28] A year ago I took a leap push myself way beyond my comfort zone and I started this J.W. life. My first podcast. So it’s almost exactly a year later just maybe a year and a week or two and I push myself to get in front of a camera and do some videos. I still have things that I’d like to add to this discussion about cults beyond helping others to tell their story here on the podcast. My videos will come out whenever I have something to say and the time to say it they’ll be about topics that I don’t feel or talked about as much. You know there are a lot of people who do videos about doctrine and you know I do care about the doctrine of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I do care about the latest happenings in the cold. I stay on top of those sometimes even through the use of other people’s videos but my you know my my voice I guess you would say are the the focus of my videos and even really these stories. I want to get to the heart of the matter. I want to talk about the experience what it’s like what it feels like to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses or in any kind of cult really. I want to talk about what it’s like not just when you’re in but also the things that we all face when we get out. And so subscribe to Sean podcast on YouTube and you’ll get my videos whenever they come out. No promises that the frequency on those podcasts is my main focus but I’ve already got a list forming of things I want to talk about.

[02:19:11] And like I said this is a free bonus. So what are you waiting for. Get yours today. You know like all the things I mentioned you’ll find the link in the show notes you can go to one podcast com you can find those notes on the episode page and you can actually probably depending on what app you’re using to listen to podcasts you can probably access the show notes right from the app. There’s usually a description of the episode and if you expand that you’ll be able to have links to anything that are mentioned or that the guest mentions on the podcast so you can go ahead. Subscribe right now. Probably from your app. You can also subscribe to the YouTube channel you can see songs that guests pick out. That meant something to them. You can create your own playlist of the songs to help you help yourself. You know because music means a lot sometimes through these journeys. You can also sign up right from your phone to support the show financially. You know everything is right there. So I just want to take a second and thank all of you so much for supporting this. We had the highest number of downloads this past month that we’ve ever had here on shunned. Heck people are still finding this J.W. life and starting their Episode 1 we just went over 10000 downloads when I released the last episode of shunned and now we’re well over 12000 at the time of this release and we also just went over 20000 downloads of this J.W. life. So there’s something here and you’re all a part of it.

[02:20:46] So share this stuff. It’s really helping people. So damn happy that I got 8 in this one. But I will go ahead and let you know that next month is an episode that’s very personal to me. I know this person and watched her grow up. She’s selling her story. Despite some consequences that could come from her doing so because she is not technically out yet. But you know there are stories that are too important not to sell. And hers is one of those. It involves sexual abuse inside the Colts a life that delved deep into drug abuse and ultimately redemption and freedom. I’m really excited to share that with everybody. So music for this episode was provided by Hollington bear. And let’s go ahead and send this out right. Love others do no harm and go be happy.

Mark Is Shunned By Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:07] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we get to hear stories from people that have been silenced by controlling religion. Today we’re going across the pond in our first ever international episode to hear from Mark who has shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses. Some of us from the jehovahs-witness.com forums know Mark as Pale Emperor there. That’s his handle Mark is a great guy. He has an adorable little girl. And at the end of this episode there’s a pleasant surprise for those who are unfamiliar with the recent happenings in Mark’s life so let’s just go ahead dive right in and meet Mark My name is Mark Jones. I’m 33 years old. I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I’m shunned. I’m Mark. So then how was it that you came about to be a Jehovah’s witness in the first place. Were you born Anna or did you come in later in life. I was born into the religion. My parents were my Petoskey given done background. My father came from a very strong Protestant family. When I say strong Protestant I mean he his parents his grandparents were very very heavily involved in a movement called the Orange Lodge. I don’t know if they had that America but in England it’s a very antique Catholic fraternity. Oh yeah. So I think in England in Liverpool and Ireland it’s a very very more anti Catholic than a normal.

[00:01:36] And my father even even when he was your hobbies witness hated Catholics on ice guess I suspect one of the reasons he got he was so willing to join the Jehovah’s Witnesses was because particularly in the elite literature they were very anti Catholic. Some of the scathing things they said about the Catholic Church. And I am aware that in the book studies family family worship I suppose you call it and he would if anything to do with Catholics he would bring up you know about the pope being involved with Hitler. And you know the revelation Balkwill talk about the Catholic Church being connected to all this and it wasn’t a year later when I realised when you look into that it wasn’t that it wasn’t that it wasn’t a clear cut. There wasn’t that the Catholic Church involved with Hitler as such it was a lot more to it than that. And there were others examples of the Catholic Church I’m hiding Jewish children and you don’t that China on a you know fight the Nazi regime but that was never mentioned in the Watchtower magazine. So my dad actually I was very very strong Protestant family. He came into it because he was initially opposed and his family to take turns chasing Jehovah’s Witnesses down the path. Naturally when they knocked on the door and they looked forward to witnesses knocking on the door so they could tell them where to go and chase them away. And as he told us the reason he became a Jehovah’s Witness was he was mean to somebody on the door.

[00:02:59] There is an old an old man on the Mount didn’t get angry with them back the man just looked kind of sad and said something like I only wanted to share something from the Bible with you but I hope you have a nice day and walked away and up and kind of made my dad feel bad and so he started accept magazines and eventually studying and of course they tell you things like you can see your dead parents again and you can see you know dead children again and Jehovah is going to kill all the bad people and that that kind of thing. But he warmed to him. My Mum became a Jehovah’s witness in the 70s. She was raised in foster homes here neighbours and sisters were raised in separate foster homes were splitting up as children. Their parents didn’t look after them at all. They did didn’t send the school they didn’t feed them and clothe them properly so they were raised in foster homes so they never really had parents and my mum had lots of stories about how she would she would come home from school and she would be cooking the dinner for her parents and she’d be doing the washing and the cleaning of the cooking and the ironing and the parents would spend all the money on drink. We did with half them whatsoever and in one of the foster homes when she was 15 so they knocked on the door was Jehovah’s Witness and she told them about you know God has a name on it and they gave her a book was called Paradise Lost Paradise. We gained which I will for the SJW who are active in them of literature you’ll notice the very graphic illustrations of native Armageddon and about this talked about people’s eyeballs rotting in their sockets and things like that. And even Yeah it’s it’s quite it’s quite.

[00:04:36] I mean my mum my mum always talked about us with fond memories and it wasn’t till I bought on eBay and when I was still a Jehovah’s Witness and I was going through what I couldn’t afford I noticed what Jesus had no beard in that book for some reason. And yet at that period of time the Watchtower Society were teaching that these didn’t have to be. I don’t know why it was. I actually I think it was because of that back in Rutherfords time rather forget it beards or even Jesus had to be bearded shaved. I think that’s why it was. Yeah it wouldn’t surprise me actually. And there was a copy of that book at my last kingdom hall library. I remember flicking through it and there’s a little girl and eldest daughter schmutz about nine and she would look up the book with me and I didn’t realize there was some there was what was coming up next with some graphic pictures. And one of the pictures was Armageddon that it was one of the one of the things that stuck in my head was a little girl with a doll falling into a hole because the gods got split the ground open and people are falling in this hole and that is a description where says their tongues will be ignored by worms and their flesh will fall off the bones and the eyeballs are on their socket.

[00:05:41] And there was a book for children you know and um my memory study with that book as a child she became a Jehovah’s Witness when she’s about 17 18 and her sister became a Jehovah’s Witness as well they stood at the same time and as it were to happen my mum and dad met in their accommodation they were in the same kind of home. And my mum sister and my dad brother also got married so they met. So the next thing you know you have you know the nicest brother two brothers maybe two sisters and so my cousins were also in the same accommodation as me which was nice. A lot of ways. But my family was so strongly and in oh I was gonna say the truth and I’m on a slow strong end of religion that they cut off everybody in their family who wasn’t a Jehovah’s Witness. So I’ve got cousins out there I don’t know who they are but it’s too dark even now add on who the ants mice. Mike Mike my family literally there were strong and in the village but they wasn’t only families that go on Saturday and Sunday because we had there was five children of my family. Um um we didn’t drive we met my family were quite poor. So let go into the meetings the ministry met you were walk there she could walk half an hour to the meeting half an hour back again if he wanted to go in the ministry you walk to the Territory as well so people couldn’t give you a lift in their cars. There were seven of you. So you walk. And so it was really a drudge go on that on the ministry um no good we didn’t like it pretend we like it either we didn’t like at all. But you do it because you have to do. As you know Mike and what happened then was going to say something at. So yeah I mean we didn’t go out on Sunday.

[00:07:22] Ember that we got on Saturday we’d only get on Sunday if we didn’t go Saturday. What I thought was what we did and we look at all the families who went out Saturday on Sunday. We just wondered how the hell they did it. We didn’t know was dumb or why would you do it or did those other families maybe have cars that attacked us. Yeah yeah. Um um um yeah. I mean like I remember my neck next door as I saw my cousins look it might be two cousins lived next door. And they they didn’t drive either but they were a small family it was a it was my uncle mounty are my my two cousins and of course the people could give them lifts you know. And my my aunty was quite popular even now she everybody in Liverpool knows who my auntie is because she’s very personable she’s she’s very active. Being a full time pioneer since 1978 No I mean but of course she believed Armageddon was going to come before her. She’s still waiting for that but um right yeah. So that’s that’s that’s a secret background of my family here. Gotcha. So then so you know you personally you know being raised as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. What was the world view that you had. How did you see everything around you. I remember um at a very early age and I can remember I wished I was I to read as a child even when I couldn’t read.

[00:08:39] I like to look at pictures and books and listen to the cassette tapes and I was very always very curious and always very studious and I remember a magazine. I think it was cold. I’ve got it written down on the one second. It did it did it did it it did it ish bear with me sir. Sorry. Come on come on bring out what culture people go look it up here. But there was a magazine called enjoy life on earth forever. Oh yeah. And this is a magazine. I think I don’t know whether it’s 10 and 10 of the children. But what one. It was very it was mostly just pictures with little numbers with like the Bible says this and the Bible says that and that’s where I at the age of four I think must’ve been four years old. I learned that there’s this thing called demons and demons like to pretend to be your dead relatives. Demons are watching you and demons look like to you know to take us away from Jehovah. And I on another picture. Which which coincidentally my mother show my daughter the other day which which miss the situation of people and Armageddon being killed and it was a clear picture of people dying or struggling go running away in fear. And it was Jehovah will destroy all the bad people. And it was all it was just that there are things I remember I don’t remember anything else about the magazine but it speaks volumes the fact that even now 33 years old I remember that magazine and I only remember the demon part and Armageddon part. Well yeah it’s terrifying.

[00:10:03] Again as a kid so so out so straight away as a kid I thought wow I’ve got to be a Jehovah’s Witness I guess stay safe in this religion. And that was merely my only safety. I thought it was because Jehovah is looking after us. And I always felt very close to God. I was always talking to Jehovah ahead. I mean that’s probably Mathilde’s knife I think for as a kid I was always praying to Jehovah. And whenever something worked my way like it I was in school. If I was afraid of something and pray if I felt better. To me that was proof that Jehovah was true Jehovah hell yeah. But if it didn’t happen it was all Jehovah was probably give me the strength to get through it. So it was a win win situation for the religion you know. But my worldview was the world is evil the world is bad the world is made to look enticing to draw you away from Jehovah. Nobody really loves you. But Jehovah’s Witnesses you can’t trust anybody but Jehovah’s Witnesses and is pagan any other religion is worship and Satan. People who are nice to you aren’t really nice to you. They’re just pretending to be nice to you so you’ll stop being a Jehovah’s Witness.

[00:11:08] And there was an occasion where I was I was on the ministry and I was working with my auntie who I mentioned was very very popular with the children and she was so mean she’s a lovely lady I mean even as they still THINK SHE LOVELY LADY she knows her Bible butterfly but it’s watchtowers interpretation of the Bible and I’m a being on the daughter of men who were there when I was a child and somebody gave us an Easter egg that it simply Mador and this this woman was very friendly very nice and she had all these Easter eggs because she has all these grandchildren and he says he takes some easter eggs. She gave me Easter eggs and my my auntie said thank you and stuff. We walked into the door and she took off me and smashed on the floor. Because it’s an easter egg you know I look out and I think I see all the chocolates for Auntie was like oh it’s a pagan fertility symbol. She smashed on the floor with a feet and then and I will and I’m not even a stupid thing to do. She just chucked an egg you know. Yeah but that was the wealthy Adam to me that was absolutely normal. It was like yeah that’s you know you don’t mix the militants together as the woman was nice but unfortunately she’s way being Zaydan without knowing it. Yeah it was a black and white black and white there was there was no no leeway there was no but nobody was nice if they went to Jehovah’s Witness she might even get pregnant an egg of the demons. There you go. I always wonder even now if you are a powerful demon would you waste your time with a chocolate egg or second hand and you would think they would have better things to do. Exactly exactly. But all that knowledge and power. I mean even I’m white that’s why you know I started I became an atheist eventually because I thought erm if you if you had a demon why would you open and close doors and windows.

[00:12:47] Where would you how would you do that. Yeah. Make a rocking chair move or something yeah that’s because got I’ve got to say I mean I. Customers are pretty good pairs and if I was an evil demon I would probably materialize in front of the president the United States and say I’m going to possess your body and I rule the world. That’s what I would do if I was a demon. Some would say that has already happened with theU.S. it may be a good one with childhood like at home for you growing up as a witness. Actually looking back on my childhood I’m hoping a happy childhood. But I think that’s because I didn’t know I didn’t know we were poor because I was led and we didn’t make would not Jehovah’s Witness children but had met through non Jehovah’s Witness family. Everyone I knew was Joe’s witnesses and my best friend was my cousin who lived next door and we were all the same boat really and Amber all of my all of my clothes were second hand. The food we had was with it. My dad worked but my mom didn’t for some reason. And our family women didn’t work it was always No you stay home. So there wasn’t much food going around but there was enough our house looking back it wasn’t the best but at the time I didn’t realize that either you would. So we we were content we were we were happy you know we had no Christmas no birthdays. But again I didn’t miss them I never had them. I do remember the youth we we’d have.

[00:14:08] I don’t know what you call an America but in England we call them surprize days. So there’s meant to be a sort of shoot for birthdays or subsidy for Christmas. But you didn’t have anything to eat at well even then. We only had three of them in my whole life. I can remember three of them. I’ll bet you it affected me later in life because um when I left the Jehovah’s Witnesses it was difficult for me because I birthed it when it’s my birthday. I didn’t know what to do. I did. It did. I didn’t really feel like doing anything because it was never an important thing. I always will. Last Christmas I was the first time I did Christmas properly with my girlfriend my daughter my daughter and her daughter and I said to her I feel bad accepting a gift because if I accept a gift and to post it should I give you money or should I give you that. And she’s like No you just take the gift. I think I’m counting how many gifts I got how many gift she got nothing and do I buy a wealthier gift. It really was strange. Yeah it was. And it sounds it to people who had ever been Jehovah’s Witnesses A plumply sounds so strange but to me it was I don’t know what to do and unbirthday as well at my daughter’s birthday last year. And I did a birthday with me and her. And people were saying to me Oh and did you do this and did you do that. Say no I got a cake and choices and did you do that now.

[00:15:24] Done stunt on me I didn’t know what to do it either I’d it properly probably you know people who do Christmas and birthdays know what they do they had they had the family round they know what to cook who sit where what food you have where you buy that. So he’s from when you buy the toys. I did. I bought Christmas gifts literally two days before Christmas outwits apparently don’t do. You meant to do it week before. Oh I think there are a lot of people who buy his or her hair. And again. But on traditions and we never had those traditions. We don’t have any history to pull from. Exactly. And Amber I got a Christmas tree. The first time I had no idea how to put it up I’d managed to do it. Didn’t know how to decorate it. So me and my daughter Basey just made a mess of it and just put things on the tree. You know she’s 3 years old so she just said to her I was just for her hair. It was her first time doing it as well. But that will be normal for her growing up. But to me I had no no clue when I was being gone Mike and my friends who had been witnesses and asking them what you know what goes where. How do you do this.

[00:16:26] And then you went to my girlfriend’s house and she put her Christmas tree up with the tree she’s had for years and years and how little Gail knew exactly what to do and and it was nice in a way that my my daughter will will see this as normal but for me I’ll always be like a strange novelty that maybe in years to come it will become an honor for me. But still even now it doesn’t seem like a big deal you know. Right. It still seems like I’m and I’m I’m because I’m observing somebody else’s tradition. No I totally understand that. Yeah. It’s like you crash somebody else’s party. Yeah and that party doesn’t really mean much to you but you’ve got to figure out some way to have fun while you’re there. So yeah I mean I understand my wife and I have big traditions or anything either. But I think kind of the cool thing is that you know it’s with you and your daughter you know you can start your own tradition. You can make it whatever you want. Yes. So that’s pretty cool. But it’s hard when you don’t come from a background of that at all. Yeah. So now you know at home you you grew up poor. What was that like at home as far as like as Jehovah’s Witness activities went. Obviously Sivers wasn’t a big deal to you did you all have to do like family study all the time or were you all big into anything like that. The fun I was I was very interested in. I wouldn’t say I was the best Jehovah. Well certainly wasn’t the person I was with us. I was very interested in the Bible rounds. You know God and things and it always wonder what you went into was how magazines and they bring out like a fine point about a sad encounter.

[00:18:12] I thought wow so somebody in Bethel must have searched outside the Watchtower to get that information. So I would search outside information for the washed out. So I would look like Catholic encyclopedias and you’re not animals you know that Mark. You’re not supposed to do that. Which which I led. Very quickly they don’t like you do that because I was giving a talk. I used to it. I used to be the stand in to a guy you know I just enjoy giving talks. And I would research a talk within like 20 minutes of somebody say I’m not going to be that 10 up and I’d do a tour. And I brought out on the platform a quotation from a Catholic bishop and I always like to cite cite my sources when I was up there so it wasn’t just me saying something the Watchtower doesn’t do with the Lotus. Right. So and I quoted this Catholic bishop but I said something and then later on one of the elders approached me and said Did you find the information on the Watchtower Library. And I said no I found it on your little internet and was on like the Vatican website or something. And he was appalled he was horrified that I’d been I’d looked outside the washed out society seedy room and you know I actually looked up yeah. How terrible are unarmed. And he said and he asked me do you do this often. And I said Well I studied all the time. Are a lot of things you know. And I think they want to arrange a visit but I’d never materialized.

[00:19:33] But I realized yet they don’t like looking outside and growing up as a as a kid. I mean in England we have a thing called Aari and school which is religious education and is mandatory in England that they teach in religious education as a lesson. But my parents got me out of that. So I went through five years of high school without any religious education. So my aunt my own my entire world view of religion was from Watchtower literature. So anything I knew about Catholics was from watchtower. I knew about Muslims Mustafah Koreans Buddhists Jews was from Watchtower wasn’t from Jews it wasn’t from Buddhists it wasn’t from Muslims it was from what Watchtower said about them. So I was very studious when I started researching and looking and see what I’m looking at Christianity from other angles. It just gave me more questions because sometimes other religions would have an answer which makes more sense than what Watchtower says. And I got to the point where I stopped believing certain things the Watchtower was saying but I didn’t mention it like I didn’t believe shunning should happen. I absolutely did not agree with that at all simply because Jesus never did it right. And when they said about will they always bring our Fiskum into the INS. But Paul says remove the wicked one from among you. My first problem with that was realisable. Well Jesus overrides Paul but Paul says it it’s OK.

[00:20:58] Good you what Jesus said you know lived in a by yourself and you know Jesus didn’t run away from the Pharisees Jews didn’t run away from the devil when the devil spoke them more powerfully spoke to. And I always thought it’s it’s not that it’s not the actions of a village in the has the truth you know. If so I’ve got a I’ve got a a person I work with who believe the world is flat. I know nothing he says to me convinces me the world is flat because I know the world round right. And it would be ludicrous for someone to say to me don’t hang around with a guy because he might affect your mind. You think the world is flat you know Ratto dead. That was the shining side of Ed and a good showing. I had a problem with the hundred and forty four thousand. Nothing to do with them. 6 0 7 day be it wrong. I didn’t know that at the time. The whole hundred forty four thousand thing was as I read it. It was a symbolic book symbolic people but a literal number. I think as a white who’s deciding which is literal who deciding which is symbolic as a type of faithful and discreet slave. It’s exactly of an illustration and they take that one part of the verbiage and make that a literal thing and then point seven men and call them that. So yeah and hours after thought as well. If we’re honest that there’s been so many sincere people throughout throughout the ages who have been in different Christian religions like Martin Luther for example who’s very well educated and he never mentioned anything like that. You think he would have mentioned it. You think somebody would have stumbled across a Asuna on it.

[00:22:31] If if God wanted if that was a true teaching from God it would be very very clear. And also I thought this probably more than likely more than one hundred forty four thousand Christians in the first century. Oh yeah yeah that was that was always so messed up because we never we had no basis. You know what. No had ever been in the path. They just yelled it out of thin air. Yeah. And even now you know the numbers are going up out of the story and the numbers now. Well you know we know that’s that but now you have to go in the wrong way. And I do suspect that that’s because more people are aware that is probably a bogus teaching and they think they all go to hell. They think everyone’s go to heaven and they deal with the partaking of the emblems to be safe. I mean I’m an atheist myself but I do believe that Jesus was teaching that anybody goes to heaven if they accept and thus I think my belief now is when it was first hundred forty four thousand. I believe that Jesus is talking about literal Jews who are chosen to have a special job in heaven. That’s what I think is too but that’s that’s neither here nor there because I don’t believe the bible anyway. Yeah. So I was offered the times of the mike sorry. That’s OK. That’s OK. So. So. All right. So you kinda went through. You know at home. Kind of what it was like. What was it like. Now I know what school you got out of the Army classes.

[00:24:01] Yeah. How did it being a witness impact you in school. Other than that like like I know in the United States we have to we would have to salute the flag every morning. And so that was something we could never do. So literally every day of our lives as kids started out taking a stand against saluting the flag. So I’d like for you like how did it manifest itself in your school career. Well well well I was somewhat fortunate. We don’t have that nationalism that we Americans have we have in England we just can’t we don’t really care about the flag. I mean the where she’ll get maybe sing the national anthem but that’s very rare. You mean mostly but over the way is the national anthem in this country we don’t really care about what we had would be. Maybe you’ll have somebody visit in like like a religious person would visit the school and give a little lesson about God or something. And at the end they give a prayer. And anybody would just bowed ahead even though they’re not religious. And to be a teacher looking around to see who isn’t bound the head just to see if would being like you know disrespectful or something. And that was it. Book we were made to feel proud to do that. You made the. We were always made to feel like you know the the three Hebrews like Schudrich Michigan Abednego and likely didn’t bowed out of Idol and you’d feel kind of good inside because you know you’re standing up for your religion. But apart from that I was okay.

[00:25:27] The school was skills a kind of respectful towards religion they don’t skate again involved when it comes to religious matters. So personally you know that’s it can it can kick off all kinds of things. So the candidate were very respectful. I never went to them what they call assemblies and school every morning we’d have like the entire school would turn up in the hall. The school hall answered the cello headmaster would give a talk about something and then at the end they’d sing hymns. So I would say I wasn’t in them so I did. So what happened was the big announcements about school or school trips. I wouldn’t do anything about them because I wasn’t there you know or even like prize giving they get prizes like trophies or certificates and sometimes my name was called and I didn’t get them because I wasn’t there. That’s the way I stick out. I mean I was never bully from a religion. I was fortunate that I was never believed about it because there was a kid in my year whose parents were Jehovah’s Witnesses and he was kind of popular. He was in with the in crowd and he was in he was it eating grounded all that older boy. I don’t want you in an American public called them jocks over here to have eyes you know go a football and the fights and stuff and he was friends with them to normal pick on him because he is a Jehovah’s Witness but he’s tough Nomad. Nobody would make fun of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

[00:26:44] I got up out of it because I kind of avoided being bullied for religion because um I was very quick witted. I mean I mean I’ve done stand up comedy over here. So now the humor is something I’m good I can make people laugh and stuff. So I got out of difficult situations by making somebody look silly or by making them laugh. I’m a lot of people become a comedian. They got a situation with their wit that’s it so and that was it. So school was it was OK. I mean the only thing negative impact on me was that when it came to my friends because I mean my own friends that obviously the way Jehovah’s Witnesses but they were all like me we had we were geeks. Man we like to you like Magner Cheston sci fi and we thought we were cool but obviously we went home. And I would have liked to have seen an outside school van and they did. They all was hunger after school and I never I wasn’t there and I’d miss out on things they were talking about and I’m looking back I was pretty harmless stuff. You know it was like going to each other’s house playing console games and school ball or or even I just don’t know I’d be together or something. But obviously I was never allowed to do that with them. So I’m kind of missed out on that. Um and it’s this shameful thing is now as even now 33 years old they’re still friendly to them and I don’t know who they are where they are. So I could have had a really good friendship. Yeah that’s true yeah. And there was a distrust of anybody who wasn’t a witness like my parent.

[00:28:12] They knocked on my door to say do you want to come to my house for something. And my parents would tell them no. Because you know I’m allowed to go out with them and they’d be wonder why I’m the real reason is because I’m not a Jehovah’s Witness and that’s the reason right. And it’s a stupid reason because because some of them were Catholic some of them a Protestant some of them are atheists. Some of them you know tend to find something else but that never got in the way. But my religion did get in a way and that now I’m a disposed to be. We’re supposed to be the loving religion was supposed to be the good ones for example but here we are Antena of religion of separating people and not join it together. Now complete isolation exactly as such social isolation and and you know it you see in so many different things. Now when you look out you look back if you if you isolate people it breeds prejudice. You know the look of things did about North Korea for example that all isolated from the outside world. They’ve gotten crazy beliefs about the outside world. And they’ve got no way of knowing what the outside world is like and they just told what it’s like and that’s that’s what they think it’s like. And I always like North Korea like the Jehovah’s Witness mentality. No no absolutely. There’s a lot of similarities there. So so the North Korea for a for being in you know what Joe as witnesses was the actual kingdom hall like that while your little area.

[00:29:30] So how was life and your little North Korea in your little kingdom hall like The View. Did you have a lot of friends. How did you know. I know you said you liked giving talks. So did you enjoy your time at the Horler Melville. I had no friends and no friends. When I was when I am the king the war that I grew up in. There was lots of children of my age that this is about four or five years old. There’s lots of CHAUD. I think there was there’s a lot of families with children so there must have been about 25 children the same age as me which is a phenomenal amount to kids but what tends to happen which I’ve since learned is quite common with the Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world. Is there a social clicks. Oh yes. So you have the elders families and they’re all friends and there’s the mistake or servants and their families who are probably going to be friends with the elders and those people who just don’t really want to hang around with you which is fine. And then this is my family which is what we were poor and hopefully some of us views about association when we went by association. We were just not as nice as a regular in the ministry as other people were but I didn’t make an association that just met me but difficult to get out. You know I’m so I had I had no friends. I only have my brothers and sisters my cousins. And then when I I grew up and moved to a different conversation again I had no friends.

[00:30:59] The reason being I think the only way I think this could be is um that my sense of humor is very what’s that. This is why I don’t like a dry sense of humor has kind of um. If something’s obvious I’ll point it out and I’ll say you know yeah like for example a man’s accommodation I’m but three years ago there was a there was there was like two or three single brothers about their late 20s and they were single and every time a girl came up to the congregation they were always talking to this girl always told to her but none of them will ask her out because they’re both too nervous to ask her out. Right. And this girl is a pretty pretty girl. I mean nice person but she probably wait for somebody to ask her out. Everybody would say yes you know. But no one they can move about it. Right. Right. So I’ve said to one of these guys look either ask her out or leave her alone. And I wasn’t a horrible idea. I’m laughing so and I say Look married said Scott LBA. Just ask her Ebola. And then next thing I know these guys when I had her army because. Because out of sight like it is. You know. And I think also that I was very vocal in the sense if someone did something that I thought was hypocritical. I pointed out I’m not doing it to be to be malicious or anything it’s just you know we’ve all seen the same thing here.

[00:32:13] Why is nobody dealing with it like you’d have like an elder who would there’s a situation that will see which complication it was in an elder basically kissed somebody else’s girlfriend. This is as a married elder who kissed somebody else’s girlfriend he did a bit more than kissing. But it wasn’t sex it was something else. And he was reproved. And the woman was the scholarships and. And it came out later on that he was approved because his dad was a sacr Obasi. Well there you go. There you regardless of I was like you know I’ll go Woodhull’s this is a very good gossip and so we all knew what that we said what I did. I said you know I was out of a witness little party get together. I said to somebody in private. I said Well you know that’s not right rarely. It’s like the sacr overseer can override something like that and say oh no this guy just does reproving. If that’s the case then that does not mean Jehovah agrees with so so if George doesn’t agree with doing this guy a disservice he should be dealt with judicially. That’s what God wants to sweep it under the rug is going to help this guy because I was a believer that I believed you know he needed help. Yeah yeah. You were trying to do what you thought was the right thing. Yeah. The next thing. But then you find it when you when you have that kind of mentality if you’re if you’re honest with the way with what you think and you use humor.

[00:33:30] People don’t want to have morality because they think you know bad association or maybe he’s not spiritual just because he doesn’t know which he knows and play guitar with Kingdom songs like you see in the magazines. You know apparently that’s what we do. I mean this is. Oh yeah. We all sit around and are perfectly divided multicultural groups working wearing casual clothes our best casual clothes and singing Keenum songs. Let’s get the orange juice is always orange juice on the table. Yes. Yes. So how did how did it go. You know so you know being that outspoken and you know not really having a good circle of friends and everything how did it go as you as you started you know in your teenage years as you start to get it you know approaching adulthood. Know did you have plans to go to college. Were you hoping to go to. I guess your version of Batho which would be the branch or something or like yeah. What were your goals. What were you going for. How is life for you. My goals were to study in university. I didn’t know what I want to do first. And when I got to about 16 17 year old the high schools in England kind of give you the thing called options where you pick specific subjects you want to study in secondary school for the last two years. And I chose some said subject because I had hoped to become a vet because the kind of thing interested me. And I went to pay picked like no sports biology chemistry all these things.

[00:35:14] And then as the US progressed when I left school my grades weren’t good enough for university to study veterinary medicine but it was good enough to study to be a doctor to be to go to well not not initially where you could go and study these subjects and then progressed to medicine you know but they were good enough to get started on that. And I was glad I had an interest in that as well. So I started to pursue as I’m looking into courses what we call A-levels in England which is like the step below university to to get you into university to study medicine. And I was going down that road and then I start to get pressure from my family because Armageddon was going to come and any second you know was just around the corner and the elders were you know would randomly turn up to see how I was and they’d say you know how I have potential to be an elder potential to be a minister’s servant and it be such a shame to lose me to like the universe is of the world where they probably teach evolution you know basically just demonising the secondary education thing. Absolutely. They barely do it. They really they didn’t want me to go to university. I didn’t really have a reason why they didn’t tell me why exactly although looking back I can see why it was because obviously university they teach critical thought which they didn’t want me having. So I basically just scrapped the whole idea of studying medicine scrapped the whole idea going to university and I took a normal office job because I believed Armageddon would come the next couple of years and that was 17 years ago. So if you work it out I could have studied medicine qualified become a doctor.

[00:36:49] I’ve been practicing medicine for eight years by now so. So if you look at that way it’s like if any Jehovah’s Witnesses listen to this and who are hoping to study met them anything at university I’ll just tell you that they were telling me when I left school that Armageddon would be here and it isn’t and they were tell my dad’s and my granddad that Armageddon would be here before they leave school. And it isn’t here and it would be it would be foolish to um to Tinos just to presuppose that Armageddon would come within the next few years because the Bible says nobody knows nobody knows and so nobody knows. There’s nothing wrong with going to university expanding your mind and helping the human race by becoming a doctor or a scientist or something. Now for all we know you know I could have been used in Bethel as a doctor which they do. They did Jehovah’s Witness doctors now which is ironic right. Yeah. They tell you not to go to university. But then if you do qualify they they take you you know. So yeah because even they know that they need doctors. Yeah. You know they don’t want you to be one. Yeah. And they said they need lawyers. So then you you’re out of high school you’re you’re bypassing college you’ve gotten yourself an office job you said are you are you trying to pioneer or anything or are you just kind of live and live in life and now I’m just I’m not I’m just living life you know.

[00:38:16] It was the first when I first got a job and your first paycheck it’s like oh wow I feel better you know. So so you start enjoying it so. So my by this point in my life my my I have two sisters my sisters were popular because they chose witness guys wanted to date. There was a night there was a lot of parties happening in my teenage years. A lot of witness parties in my teenage years and early 20s my sisters were get invited because everybody fancies them and I get invited because my sisters know that if you put me in a room of people I don’t know I will know the whole room within an hour. I do think I wake the room. I go around like everybody I speak about and people I have a knack for connecting to people. I don’t know why that is. My sisters know that if I go with them I can get to know people and I can introduce them to people and I can get people you know where I can get parties. I’ve always been able to do that. You were there wing man. I was their wingman. Yeah. And it worked out well in some regards because there was some like you know there’s definitely a party scene in Liverpool but you would see things like sometimes you go to parties where they were very well it’s just a worldly book. There were very non Jehovah’s Witness you know who I am but I can’t remember two particular ones where one was some guy. His parents owned a garden centre and they went on holiday to America.

[00:39:33] And so while this whole garden centre was empty this guy decided to throw a massive party in this Garden Centre’s maze. It was a wasn’t just fantastic. And I remember there were people just making out with each other. There were people in the showroom pool with no clothes on. There was people ball probably having sex upstairs you know. And one was Amber one was an eldest son who is in one of these rooms which I assume they were having sex he was when there were two girls and their brawls were on the door handle outside. These are Jehovah’s Witnesses. But right now Berriman the Jehovah’s Witness Yuanqing of teens. Yeah. Now if I wasn’t a Jehovah’s Witness I wouldn’t think of this I think well you know they’re doing what they want to do. But I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I wasn’t sheepish tricked but I also think Amanda Spatz and I and me and my sisters left that party after about two hours. We stayed two hours before we got up and we went to someone else’s house like you know and there’s not a party going on there. And the next day and the Kingdom Hall next day was a Sunday. One of the eldest started to visit all of us to see who was at the party what happened and who was with him and what happened and I just said I was there but I didn’t see nothing. I didn’t mention it was his son in the room with two girls iLevel death.

[00:40:50] But nothing came of that you know I mean I think I think to people from like Manchester which is like the next city where the two of them disfellowshipped there was maybe a few you know marking talks but nobody really got dealt with but there was definitely more than more than windows put it more than bad things going on there you know there was there was cigarettes alcohol sex marijuana that was all there. Not Jehovah’s Witnesses. Mark Oh yeah that stuff but you’d be surprised oh no I wouldn’t be surprised or Yeah. It’s funny how they outwardly projected their parents are being wholesome and clean but you have no idea what goes on in you know behind closed doors or at parties or whatever. There is a lot of stuff that goes on that people most witnesses have no idea what goes on within their own congregation. No I’ve always say even when I was waking up from the Jehovah’s Witnesses I used to say to people well I just wish people out there would be a Jehovah’s Witness. I don’t be one don’t sit on the fence you know because because if you want to go to parties like that and do that that’s absolutely fine if he want to. I’m not going to judge you for that able. But don’t pretend that it’s a God fearing Bible Jehovah’s Witness and do those things because that’s not what Jehovah’s Witnesses are meant to do. And I’ve got nothing. I have no problem with individual Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s the Watchtower Society I don’t like but the individual Jehovah’s witnesses I believe are good people out there. They’re kids at 17 18 19. That’s what kids do right.

[00:42:28] I mean why if I wasn’t a Jehovah’s Witness now my party I would have a lot more than what I did but that’s normal life that kind of thing happened but don’t pretend to be what you’re not. You know if you wanted that lifestyle going live it and don’t pretend that that was them that was that while. And then there’s another situation another party where this guy had epic party he vanished now lets go. Buddha finally had one party that was a little too Epica I think yeah I Umbers he left and um a an area in Liverpool called Butel which is a rough area of Liverpool. But what he would do he would have he had a house and he would empty his house of furniture and put it in a moving back side so that every room is how his empty and he would have a massive party in his house like all night and there were fantastic parties and I must know what to look for five of them. I remember that was I remember these parties because every time I went to one of his parties I always got the girl. I don’t even know why because he was popular. He would have like witnesses from Manchester London Birmingham Wales Scotland all coming to his parties because they knew his parties were good so you’d meet like people from all over the place where you’d never get a chance to meet these people otherwise if you weren’t invited his parties you and anybody he would you wouldn’t get to meet people you know. So I decided to enjoy those parties they were cool but then this guy obviously wasn’t a Jehovah’s Witness he thought it was all crap. He was stuck in it because his parents were in it you know.

[00:43:58] So I never had a problem with him in the sense of he wasn’t pretending to be anything else he was just going along with it because he had to which I wish we can all relate to he’s disfellowshipped now. I haven’t seen him on Facebook or anything but um if he’s listening yeah yeah yeah some great parties mate. Thank you. Shout out to that brother. Yeah I do want to say his name yeah yeah yeah dad. So then how did how did your adulthood play out then you know before you ended up eventually leaving the religion I think you were married correct. Yes I know a little bit of yours story. Yes. How did all that transpire. How did that build up. Well there’s there’s an important thing happened just before that was that when I was team my father got cancer and died and the whole from from diagnosis until he died happened quite quickly it was and I think he was diagnosed with it. And by the time they found out it was oh it was Riddle thought was body. And about three months later he was dead. So those are pretty quick to deal. You had to could deal with that pretty quickly you know come to terms with that and what the effect the heart was. My family became even more strict with the religion because the only hope of seeing them again was to get through the new system. My sister was one of my sisters particularly and I’m convinced the only reason she’s Jehovah’s Witness is because she wants to see her dad again.

[00:45:17] I don’t I know she doesn’t agree with a lot of the teachings but the reason she thinks she will see him again if he stays a Jehovah’s Witness. And then I had like a mini crisis of faith during his sickness. And I thought was I used to think like it’s if God is real then why does he just step in and stop this stuff or why is the bottom again by now. You know and then after my dad died I contemplated leaving the religion. And then of course I was told to wait on Jehovah just just study more and put all the doubts the back of his mind. And then I visited Bethel in New York and I saw like all those smiling happy faces and people saying how wonderful it is to be here. We’re all happy and everything. And then I came back convinced it was the truth because of this so-called love they have amongst themselves which would later find out is all fake. So that that happened that then I visited another accommodation. A friend of mine but our friend is an elder son who was who was very very shy and he asked me to go with his family to give a talk and the conversation again was because I’m the guy who can speak to people and introduce you to them. That was about half that I went to. This other conversation. I met a woman who eventually I would date her and six months later I’m engaged and six months later married so married within a year of meeting a witch and the Jehovah’s Witness well is absolutely normal. Oh yeah I was married to my wife then for a month. Yeah. So yeah very very quick courtship there yeah.

[00:46:52] And you’ll know Michael at that um it’s not till you’re married and living together then you then you really know who you married to. Oh sure am as a witness. With the way they date and with the chaperones that you are my everything else like there’s no possible way of having any idea who it is that you’re really marrying. There’s no no. And you know I’m Amber I’m OK our courtship was she was very close to her family. If I’m on it her dad’s an elder. And from what I’ve seen when I was going out with her that her family were very close and they were like in the centre click of the congregation because all their friends were elders families and it was like Wow I’d never be able to speak to these people you know in this click normally. So I thought it was fantastic be this wonderful social circle I was at the Central. I know you were there with a chaperone all the time and stuff and then um something happened we got married and living together and after about a week things started that you start to notice things like um you know I don’t have a parent but in our case the only thing we had in common was our religion. But as a Jehovah’s Witness that’s a good enough reason you know that that’s what they tell you to look for as their quote spiritual qualities. You know do they go to meetings. Can they show up on time. Do they knock on doors. They thought that that’s what it’s all based on is just the commonality of the cult doctrine. Yeah.

[00:48:20] You know she didn’t like the fact that I had friends who weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses from work. I’m even now my best friend as a gay man. And she didn’t like the fact that there’s a gay friend did that the fact that some my friends are women who aren’t witnesses because the Jehovah’s Witness mindset that automatically means I’m going to have sex with them doesn’t it. You know how you’ve just been you know that thing that they want to tell us that is more sex more than anybody else but you know because. And so there was that and then there’s things that stands out. Mean that she had health issues of her own which I didn’t know. She has OCD and severe OCD. She had a desire to see which would which would eventually turn into depression and she started self harming as well. And the reason was. Well I know now the reason was the pressure she was under to conform in a census. Now soon she got married. She couldn’t rely on her elder father to be the center of a social circle. Now she hatches out on her own her own family and she suddenly found herself not in the social clique anymore because she’s not an elder’s wife she’s not an elder. She’s so that that took it took a big toll on her. She too is you know trying to do more do more do more study more and more do all this. And she became very ill. I mean almost like that she wasn’t eating you look like a you know like anorexic or something.

[00:49:38] A lot of you know I don’t want to say a lot of those disorders. You know OCD is about control anxiety is about a lack of control. Eating disorders are often about control and you know when you’re in a cult and you have no control over your life then you’re trying to find it anywhere you can. Yeah those disorders are really pretty common among Jehovah’s Witnesses because the situation is so out of control. I had some OCD tendencies though nowhere. Beyond that OCD spectrum and a lot of anxiety and it was all because of being so out of control in the cult. Yeah. And you know since leaving you read out that there’s a high high volume of people who are Jehovah’s Witnesses who suffer from depression and suffer from self harm as well as the big one from my last complication I know personally I know 27 people out of 75 complications who are depressed. I know eight of them personally who were on medication for clinical depression. That’s quite a high volume of people for just one year. When it comes to self harm that’s not something I’m qualified to talk about but my my my my ex-wife did self harm at a time and also some of the friends in the occasions she would tell me who also self harm. I never really understood why on that basically it was born out of frustration. You know I just said there was no control in their lives that they had control over cutting themselves or bending themselves was was them taking control in some way. Well that’s not how it was explained to me by them.

[00:51:20] And you know that is that’s not something I would make light of that that’s a serious thing. And so yes. So we were married and then we were half hip per family. As I say was the eldest family and they were all friends with elders families and then we went on holiday to whales that they like going hiking and things and camping and stuff. And I we hide in a massive cottage and this a whale somewhere and there was me and me on my wife Heff family and two of the elders families. Now the two other elders I’m going to say are assholes they are. I would never hang around these guys in the real world the kind that are at fault. My Michael is Megan and that I think I think that is a qualification to be an elder. But I think I think it is a qualification and iambus sitting at the dinner table. I think I’ve told you about this in and online somewhere but sit around the dinner table said. And my father in law I started talking about a judicial committee he just been on and he was named to the person he named what it was they did and he talked all about the ins and outs of it and then his wife my mother in law said Yes well his wife he was always like this and his wife was always like that. So his wife knew the ins and outs of the judicial committee and then the other two elders there start talking about judicial rape and on and on they talked about judges not all three have been on the talking about things that I shouldn’t know about and their children shouldn’t know about.

[00:52:44] And why shouldn’t know about. So when you go I mean I’ve been on a judiciary committee myself and they say to you whatever said in this room stays in this room and we don’t tell anybody about it. If again any Jehovah’s Witness is listening. That is not true. I know things that I shouldn’t know about people from Alaska immigration. I did. I knew what it was like. Yeah. If if they if they knew that I know what what they did they would be mortified. And again and you want one comment that really hit home annoyed me was the Jewish judicial committee that all three of them have been on that they just had they said but the so and so you know he did this thorough. You can see he was repentant but we disfellowshipped him anyway and they all laughed. And that guy hasn’t come back to the religion and his family is shunning his family his life is destroyed by that religion. And they thought it was funny to disfellowshipped them because they wanted to get home or watch a football match and he still disfellowshipped now. I don’t know who he is. The way he is always doing like book. And that’s bad because you know shunning being shunned. You can have to cope with that or you can’t cope with it and if you can’t cope with that you in for a tough ride. You know you need support of people and especially from your family and his family. Shunning him. And it’s sad. So yeah I mean things will progress with the marriage and things didn’t go too well.

[00:54:06] I mean I did love. I did. She said she loved me but she didn’t really show it much. But I was committed to say well I’m married I’ll just stay my way to an end and the new system should be better I suppose. And that was that was what most I was committed to do when I start she started to be sectioned in hospital for self harm and anxiety and things and she’d we had it we had a baby girl and thought the pregnancy she was shunned because she says she did something and she was disfellowshipped and she was repentant she told the elders for that she did. And she was repentant about that she told the elders the same day and they disfellowshipped her anyway and I was on the Judiciary Committee where they said that the elder said and I said and I quote We can see your repentance but we must as fellowship you anyway to make you learn. Wow. So when when I read what time magazine is a lie where it says people are only just vanishing for being unrepentant or people only just finished for being prideful or hiding their sin. This wasn’t the case at all. And that was a massive thing for me I doubt that when a massive change at that if I wasn’t certain judicial committee or if I didn’t hear those words I may well have been still a Jehovah’s Witness the day because that set off a lot of a lot of thought in my head. I started to research the history of this organization. So she was shunned the entire pregnancy.

[00:55:25] She didn’t have any friends no family spoke to a shadow only person who spoke to her during the entire nine month pregnancy was made and she really hard. Yeah that’s got to be really tough. Yeah. And of course you know she said she that she’s not any any French who went Jehovah’s Witnesses because she was a good Jehovah’s Witness she had no worldly friends. So she had no way to tend to and she couldn’t talk to non Jehovah’s Witnesses when she disfellowshipped because she went to get reinstated. So she’s trying to do the best job she can be. And I remember a boat she was walking in the snow to the Kingdom Hall and people would drive past her and she’s like nine months pregnant you know and there was there was no there’s no common sense you know this this person is pregnant she’s there you know there is no love there’s no love. And eventually she was reinstated after the birth. She was reinstated. I know people are called to a hogan. Oh we’re so glad. Oh we love you was so wonderful was they both. This is the person who drove past you in the snow. You know this is if you see someone who’s who’s heavily pregnant walking in the rain or in the snow or carrying heavy shopping bags you don’t even have to know them you stop your car and you ask them. Give me a lift. Of course you have that common humanity and decency. Yeah. But this was like Jehovah’s Witnesses to another Jehovah’s Witness.

[00:56:44] But just because she and the people don’t even know why she was disfellowshipped so that even a the Charlena you know so obviously she was she was repentant anyway. Yes. Should an election now. So I said to her while she was being shunned I said to her you know I mean I was having a lot of doubts about the religion. I said look this is this is your opportunity now if we could just not go back you know I’ll not go back. And she said no I’ve got to go back to my family. I want sympathy. She didn’t say you got to go back true. You said I’ve got to go back on my family. I want my family back. Right. And when when she went to hospital to give birth I remember we deliberately left her blood card at home because if she has a blood transfusion she gets one. And if our daughter child needs one that she’ll have one. And I think her father showed up at the hospital and asked me to see a copy of the book of the document and the HLC people tended to do a really intrusive trying to see how she got a card with how she got card with her. And we said no no we’ve left our home. You know I drove home and got it and brought it home. And the HLC guys even brought blank copies with them to fill one in them and then cut the light so I said to my wife and secret Look if if if the child needs a blood transfusion I’ll say yes I’ll get disfellowshipped. And that’s what we’ll do what she said. OK. Because I can cope being shunned and she can’t so. So that was the plan.

[00:58:11] Unfortunately it did not. They didn’t come to that anyway the Beth went fine but it just shows you how much control religion has where you know we’re giving birth. We should be looking forward to our baby being born but instead we’re making a secret pacts about who’s going to be disfellowshipped if it comes to in a way how did something just help me whether she did. Fellowship Yeah yeah but she was still willing to stick to Jehovah’s Witness rules because she is to be the best hope that she can be to get reinstated. Yeah. And I can see that I give her family who wasn’t a part who shunned her through the entire pregnancy yet the that now is the time to show up when the baby is going to be born. Right. Yeah. And now the HLC cares and now the family cares just because the babies being born yet. Otherwise she could have died on the streets and they wouldn’t care. Wow that’s just awful. They’re so intrusive and so everything with them is so conditional. Yeah. But as things progressed I mean even when I when I was leaving the Colts and especially when I left the court would involve a Sully’s a more low life with my daughter as you as you know from the forum post I make they do try and get to they try and get to your children I think. And I think the only way the only way my mother for example can have access to my daughter since I’ve left was through my ex-wife. And so she’s been trying to make contact just to get access to my daughter.

[00:59:50] But of course every time she’s been with my daughter my daughter comes back and says things which only she would know if she’d been going to meetings you know Armageddon or Jehova not like you know you aren’t bothered about me but you’re bothered about seeing my daughter right. Right. But then for them when you do have it she comes back talking about Armageddon and demons she doesn’t come back talking about parties in the park you know. Right right. And it’s funny because you know what you’re describing there is kind of the opposite of the experience of a lot of people a lot of people who leave have kids and then their parents never have anything to do with those kids never see those kids their entire life their grandkids ever. They either go one way where they completely shun those grandkids. Which actually is a protection for those grandkids even though it’s still disgusting or they want to be involved and go through any means possible. But it’s only so that they can indoctrinate them. It’s not so that they can. Like you said take them to the park or to a party. Yeah. Yeah. But first my mom would be in contact with me for about a first couple of weeks when I first left the cult. She was in contact to talk about my daughter. And she seemed to be wanted. She seemed to want to get involved.

[01:01:14] But when she got wind that I when apostates or a so-called apostate um then that’s when she stepped up the shelling and then she didn’t bother with me or my daughter for a long long time and then it only recently came to to my knowledge that she’s been secretly seeing my daughter. That’s that’s another situation entirely but I’ve Artus I’ve as you know I had to take legal action to stop the stop here from just taking my daughter when she wants to. So yeah it’s it’s it’s part of the battle I’ve always I’ve always said if my if my ex-wife left the religion which she has done since which I’ll come to later am I would I wouldn’t bother with the actual community because the only way affects me is if my daughter goes missing and I want to know what she’s been taught and want to be in. So I should be washing my hands of the whole thing now but I’m not because the one thing am I’m heavily involved to be actually to become a Latina and also my they are still affecting my life and the sense of trying to get to my daughter and I don’t think my daughter would ever become a Jehovah’s Witness. But it’s still I don’t want to expose to so the teachings that they have because I don’t want a three year old girl to be like I was a three year old No. Armageddon is or no what Satan is or demons and things you know you just never know. I mean it’s a very powerful doctrine that I try. I mean there are a lot of people you would think would never become Jehovah’s Witnesses so you have to battle it and treat it seriously.

[01:02:39] Yeah and even even like something innocent like the cadence of fear videos they’re not innocent because they’re antigay thing and donate your money to this to the Watchtower Society and think it’s so uneven. Even some of the language they use I’ve known since starting university myself I’ve noticed some of the things the Watchtower Satti does. They like to insert their own little loaded language or not. They all adjectives like for example that they’ll say Are you a young one who’s wisely considering baptism if you even move the word baptism it just says are you a young one who’s considering baptism what they say are you wisely considering baptism right by. And they also say things like do you wisely destroy apostate literature. Right so they’re inserting a word there to make you see like this is what you should do. I I’m manipulating it’s manipulation. And at the time I never noticed it until it wasn’t till actually I started studying at university that I noticed that they do this because if you read like you on Wikipedia for example you’re not allowed to do that. You can’t you can’t insert your own little agenda inside and that it has to be referenced. You can’t try to manipulate somebodies thinking with the White House idea that they do it with children. Thing is. The comic books they do on the GW website. Now it’s just it’s they really all get to the young ones. Now they have to they have to because that’s the only growth they have. Yeah. They’re not getting anybody from knocking on doors anymore. No the growth is always from within. Now how did you how did you come to leave the religion in the first place. I mean like you mentioned that your marriage was kind of rocky.

[01:04:20] Your daughter is boring your wife. Yes. Fellowship. She was wanting to go back in. And I guess she did but how did you come to actually leave the religion. Basically I wasn’t happy but I should have been happy because I’m in the happiest village in the world on a town and I wasn’t happy. And I’m I’m quite a positive person. I don’t I don’t really get. I wouldn’t say I get depressed. I have moments where I like what I get fed up inside but I’m a depressive person but there was a time when my wife was in hospital for about four months. I was looking after my daughter by myself. And at this time the only time witnesses would speak to me was like always in the ministry more she going to ministry more to answer more you should study that. Can you do a stand and talk for meal at bent bromide. I’m working full time and I’m looking after my daughter by myself and I’m visiting hospital everyday and they’re still asking me to do more and more and more. Nobody is offering to help me. And they were more interested in how many hours I want on my report slip than they were and how am I doing with my daughter how am I doing on my own. And I would start I started to look on a forum. Jehovah’s Witness Stockholm and I would read on the Net a post that I read on there. Now I don’t know if that’s true for every every extra I was witness who goes on the book I would read the post on there and I would be terrified.

[01:05:45] I was terrified because I’m an apostate website and you know I went at first. Yeah I’m like I’m but I’m physically shaking after I’d been on there. And I pray to Jehovah to forgive me for looking at it but sometimes you do things like you know someone who is an ex Elder. Well Xico obviously and I think surely not an elder. No elders don’t leave this truth to the sacred overseer. Second I really wouldn’t leave this religion. They know they know better than that the day is done then so you think about it walk away to think why would a second obviously leave. No. If it’s the truth why they leave. See it thought. And you go back and you’d look like something else and then you know and they’d mention something you go into that can’t be true. We can’t know we can’t be involved the United Nations should. I know we’re not alive because the United Nations is part of the same Titanic system. Now the next thing you know there’s a letter. You see the letter. You know that they’ve joined the United Nations of an NGO and I thought well oh well it was just just kind of a lab card. Okay that’s okay. Now that stands out.

[01:06:44] Well if you want a library card you have to swear that you agree with the aims of the United Nations which of course we did that if we got up and said we agree with the nations we could disrupt ships you know and then somebody mentioned like you know an execution a body member who’s written a book and I thought well well well an execution a body member. So someone on a given a body left. Why would they leave. Oh it must be because he’s that he’s a bitter man. He must be bitter. There was something terrible and left. That’s what it is better he’s writing lies. And so it and I still didn’t read his book it was right friends crisis of conscience. And I everyone should read this book. Anyone who is a Jehovah’s Witness should read that book and everything on there is referenced. I was surprised at the tone of his writing he was very humble man. He doesn’t have any hatred whatsoever for the witnesses at all. He is basically just pointing out where they’ve gone wrong. And I do believe he was still a Bible believing man and he wasn’t an atheist or anything. And all the things he talked about he backed it up like he had them pairs of watchtowers he had quotes he had you know court transcripts and things. After reading that book I came away and there was no way I could go back to it because it would mean it would mean that I’d have to be dishonest of myself. And that there’s a saying which says when a when an honest man is proven wrong he’s either stopped being honest or he’s tough being wrong. And after reading I thought well you know I still believe in God but I don’t believe the Watchtower Society and I know what that meant. I’m but I even now remember I was in a park with my daughter and she was collecting pinecones and she seemed so happy in the sunshine.

[01:08:22] I’m sat there and I thought to myself I don’t believe this religion. And it was like a major fight somebody died. Amber she on that someone died. And I thought it’s not true this religion isn’t true. I had been involved there for 31 years and it’s all been for nothing. And this means that my family aren’t gonna speak to me and my grandparents either speak to me or my friends and you know it’s me. So I text a text message to my non Jehovah’s Witness friends who are my gay friend I told you about earlier and I said look I’m leaving the watchtowers I’m leaving the Jehovah’s Witnesses and he replied saying Are you sure you want to do this because he knew what that meant. He knew what will happens to people who live on said well if I stay in this religion just just because my family are there or just because it’s nice or it’s it’s a nice image it’s going to affect everything else it’ll affect you know I’m denying myself a university and deny my daughter a normal life and deny myself friends and now it really would be just selling yourself to an organisation to a cult. I would like to refer to as a call which I do believe it as well. At the time I said I still believed it was the closest thing to the truth which is the stupidest thing I’ve ever said of my life. I’m alone there. I think it’s the closest thing there is but I couldn’t I couldn’t tell my wife this for one thing she was in hospital.

[01:09:40] I’m sure she doesn’t need that right now so I kind of went along with it but I stopped going at the ministry for about a year. It had gone the mystery at all for a year and I was classed as inactive but I was still going to the meetings. I’m still answering OK. But I basically I land very quickly. That’s as long as you just say what they want to hear they’re happy. I’ll get up on a bluff him give a talk. I don’t believe aware of what I’m saying. But they were happy. I can say what they want to hear and at fine time nobody seemed to be worried about that they are more worried about the fact that it wasn’t going in the ministry. But I would give them an excuse like um we don’t drive or you know my daughter not very well. But no one you know. Then it came to the point where my sister in law was babysitting for us and I was at work and she was babysitting and I came back and she was acting weird. She says she made a wish took out the house she didn’t want to speak to me or anything strange because I was kind of my mama mama wife for close to matter to her brother and her white brother’s wife and holidays and things I thought strange kind of push out and stuff and then the next day I got a phone call and my my my nickname on the Jehovah’s Witness forum my people known as the pale emperor and an M and an elder called me and he says does the name Pale Emperor mean anything to you. I am been tired.

[01:11:03] I swore Mahad author Ahmad. None of this means. And I said I. I pretended a face. While the pale emperors AM is an album by Mala Manson I don’t think he’d know what that was and he said to me and he said. We’ve seen what you’ve written on those Web sites and we’re disgusted now. I’d written on the website at this point was that my first post was that you know I’m a fan I can go crazy in this religion and I’m so stressed out that I did that. That was all it was. I hadn’t Dyster religion as such I was just basically poor my heart out. And that was bad enough. The fact I’d visited and a Jehovah’s Witness forum or travellers form and posted my feelings about how I’m feeling with the religion that it’s not paire fact it’s not wonderful I’m so I feel so I’m going crazy. I don’t know what to do. And the acros witnesses bless Blessum but they’re very supportive. I got more support and one day of people I’d never met than I have had in 31 years and the as the witnesses they all gave me different. Some of them just said you know what I’m gonna tell you what to do but you know we’re thinking of you and you know just take it slow. Well there’s no one to. Nobody told me to leave. Nobody told me that there’s religion’s rubbish in this religion’s evil. No one said that. They just said you know take it easy try and you know look after yourself Look after your family and they’re very supportive.

[01:12:21] So this whole thing about apostates being you know drawn people after themselves is rubbish. I mean even myself now I’m I’m I’m a so-called apostate. I don’t care if people follow me. I don’t really care. I just want people to know the facts and then make up their mind about what what to do with it you know. Because if you if you know if you know the truth about this organization and still decide to be a part of it that’s fine. I don’t have a problem at all. The problem is when you get people who say well you own it you’re only an apostate because you know it’s the truth but you’re fighting against it. And that’s a flaw waiting to hear because because we know who killed we don’t work. If it was true I would be in it if it was true. I would be part of it but there’s only so many times you can forgive. Like a failed prophecy or a fair prediction or a new light on a far as I’m concerned every time they bring out new light it’s a new religion. I wasn’t baptized into the religion of what they’re teaching now. I wasn’t baptized into the. I wasn’t baptized. I wasn’t baptized believing on Obama generation. I would never have the truth. What happened so and then I was called the eldest son of pestered me by phone by e-mail by text. Now at this point I thought well you know it’s probably good time to leave so I ran a disused disassociation association letter and mailed it to the congregation. Persad Noble was I’d never see a coordinator.

[01:13:48] And I started getting more and more knocks on my door and stuff I just didn’t answer the door. I want to be left alone but they don’t leave you alone. They don’t let you leave. They don’t believe. And it became like in the end a thought well I’ll just meet with them to get them to go away. I met with one elder who seemed to be OK. I thought he was OK. I thought he’s a friend of mine. I met with him in a pub just just him on Husserl and he said to me that you know the organization has made mistakes but where the honest religion because we admit our mistakes which of course is true now they never admit anything. Yeah and he said of course he said look at the Catholic Church or their paedophile problem which I thought was I am crazy. Witness the Watchtower study has a huge paedophile problem as you and I know anybody listen and just ask Google the Australian wool commission and read all about that. And then he said well disassociate is a cowardly thing to do because it means that you know you’re not giving the elders their chance to turn to lovingly shepherd you or something like that which is complete rubbish. So that’s I said yeah so so he said to me look why did you come to the Kingdom Hall tomorrow with me and all that and just two elders just two elders and ten open to tell us your concerns and will sit with you and we’ll go through it and if you still want to disassociate then that’s fine.

[01:15:05] So I thought out I stupidly said Yes I’ll tell you I I know a lot of things I want to get off my chest. You try to Adam. Yeah with theU.N. with theU.N. connection with Charles Taylor Rossell selling medical wheat with you know lots of things that did all over the food with as you know in connection with Hitler. He tried to eat tried to curry favor with Hitler before the war but it backfired and then he became like an antique German Jehovah’s Witness suffering unnecessarily because of the Fed’s mismanagement. So that wants to be more out and then stand up. There’s roughly three elders there not two liturgist judicial committee they tricked me to tell you just a committee. Now I should have just walked out. But that I thought was about I’m here I’ve already disassociated a lot I want to say I sat there and for the first hour was just them trying to get me to admit that I believe the Bible and I believe that Jehovah’s God’s name and eventually ice. I said to them yes even though I didn’t really believe the by all the Bible I believe in God. I did know who God was. That’s when I was at this point. And I said I don’t know whether God is male or female or God as you know at the Trinity. I don’t know whether God is like you know a pantheon of gods I don’t know and they’re scoffing at this idea. I’m like look literally I have no idea. I don’t know what I believe anymore. And so I said yes I believe the Bible.

[01:16:26] I’ve said that and they said fine them we can get on with this with this with this meeting. And basically the next two hours was then they told my disassociated letter in front of me and they said well you know your actions are showing that you’re not humble and I’m not following you know the direction that Jesus has chosen because of course there’s no evidence that Jesus has chosen this. And they were saying you know you want to get ahead of Jehovah’s challe. Yes. And if you don’t accept the covenant if you don’t accept the governing body then that means that you know in the first century would you accept the Apostles. And I’m thinking Well well I would because I would see them do miracles with my Arvidson. What I would. And I know. And they said what the apostles got it wrong sometimes and I know but you know nobody. They didn’t they didn’t change their religion. When I said well the apostles didn’t disfellowshipped people who as you disagreed with the you know you have you have you know Paul the Apostle and Matthew disagreed on things they didn’t shoot each other one that no one didn’t get disfellowshipped yet they just kind of say yeah we disagree on some things but you know what else. And there was a scripture that I remember I think a comma which scripture at Imber Paul apostle Paul said you know some follow up Polis some follow me some follow somebody else but we all follow Christ like. So what that tells me personally I said to the elders is even back then there were different branches of Christianity popping up but it did matter because it all leads back to Jesus.

[01:17:48] That’s what the Bosnians and that’s what he was saying. Some follow Polis in his teaching of whether some follow me. So I’m saying well you know let’s say I become a born again Christian for example if I did. As far as I’m concerned I’m still in the teaching of Christ. That’s what they believe. So that’s not really an apostasy it’s just a difference of opinion. But they were like adamant that no no no it has to be the Watchtower Society. Now I bought along gum em reprints of Watchtower literature from the first era of similar things he said which which directly contradicts things they say now. And of course that’s considered to be old right. And because out of half the thing that’s apostasy and I think that’s the thing here I have their own publications from the era and even some of it even some as up to the 80s 1980s like you know. JEREMY SCHAAP never pass away that one. MARTIN four. And they said that that is now apostasy because it contradicts what we now teach book. But by saying in the book The Faithful and Discreet Slave printed this what they written. Well the Fed apparently was Jehovah’s mouthpiece. You know how kind of scary. Yeah. So so so if other thought was wrong about this could he be wrong about you know anything else. Could they go wrong about blood transfusions. Could they be wrong about you know Christmas and better. I mean I read somewhere a comma would have read it that would ban birthdays because he personally didn’t go into birthday party so he banned the about.

[01:19:15] Right. Sounds about right. I’m not sure where that’s true but it wouldn’t surprise me at all. No no. And I know the Fed also banned tipping your hats to women. He banned shaking hands. He banned singing Kingdom songs and they only the they came back in nor took over. Yeah. You couldn’t sing Kingdom songs. I didn’t hold out. Yeah that’s the same announcement Monday about birthdays. They also banned singing hymns like that. It was just you couldn’t. Those are tipping a hat to women or standing up when they enter a room is because it’s showing them what is it is showing too much respect to women. It’s like you should be shown respect to guard and the man as the head of the House and the women should be your subjection to you. He’s basically in his Etep in their caps men. Yeah. These are things that you know the ridiculous. This is the way they treat it. At It. It takes the whole it takes the love out of the whole thing that reading the Bible should be a joy. It should be something you enjoy. Do you go there to feel better. You know you had a bad day. You’re worried about something. You read the Bible. You feel better. Right. But you try to do that with Watchtower literature. You don’t feel that way. You feel worse and you feel like gladiatorial paradise. They claim it is. No it’s not.

[01:20:30] And it got to the point it got to the point where I literally thought even if even if this is the truth I don’t want to live in the new system because it would mean I’ve got I’ve got Tony Morris up in heaven the ruling the. It’s almost like a you know I’ve got to start I’ve still got to study the magazines are still going to preach to the people to be resurrected and then even if you do all the Jehovah is going to test you again. Yeah you’re thinking how and where are they going to go through all that again which means you know your relative who you love very much could then die because you didn’t pass the final test. But it’s ok because you’re over will erase your memory of a person. So I thought to myself well why bother. Why don’t I just enjoy my life now. I didn’t die at the end of it anyway so it just finished for apostasy on and. I was the subject of my wife left me. Even though I’ve been very supportive of a third illnesses and things she left me a lot of pressure from a father who is an elder UNDAN. And she left and she moved into her parents house and I kind of got with my life then for the for the first couple of months I went through a period of I didn’t know who I was. Did no one I believed didn’t know what my likes and dislikes were. I really did not know who I was. And I think this is a common thing. We believe a cult called up and told him how to think or what to think and told them what the world view is.

[01:21:53] I really didn’t know who I was so I kind of just threw myself into studying everything I study religion philosophy. I studied art history everything and anything that I didn’t understand I would look it up on multiple little different sources. I wouldn’t just look at one like the Watchtower Society would give you one side of an argument. I looked up counter arguments I looked at all of the history of why they would say that and I came to the conclusion that the Bible is a collection of books that agree with each other but they only agree with each other because they remove the ones that don’t agree with them. You know. Yeah I think was comes off nicely I think where they based the Catholic church got together and argued over which books should be and which shouldn’t be. I’ve read books that were removed. I have a book a home here. It’s like damn i didn’t know there was an apocalypse of Peter so Peter wrote a book or the apocalypse as well which contradicts John’s revelation. Oh I know that. Yeah I didn’t even notice myself until last week. There’s books and the Gospel of Thomas as gospel and that book is insane. Yeah there’s even a gospel of Judas. There is so many books now. I’m more than confident that most of the book to the Bible probably where I’ve written by the people I named after them and even if they where they would have been changed over the years for political reasons and things. And it’s.

[01:23:14] And it also doesn’t make sense that you’d have like what you would expect a book written by God or inspired by God would have information well above it’s time like you would be talking about physics and you certainly would mention Australia or North America but doesn’t mention names places doesn’t mention Scandinavia doesn’t mention Russia or anything like that it just mentions the Middle East. You know it never mentions that always got me well never mentions in all the rules about not committing adultery or men lying with men or it even mentions beach ideality but it never ever talks about not sexually abusing children. Yes like what are the most vulnerable among us. No they’re nowhere in there does it say. And you would think that the Nishant guide would be able to see that you know what this might be a problem. And I should address this directly like I do Beath reality never ever mentioned and that that was something that I always got to me. How was that overlooked. Yeah I’m a big one for me is slavery. Yeah nowhere nowhere in the Bible where you find a scripture that says slavery is bad. In fact you found the opposite you’ll find rules to say how to treat your slaves right. And even as even if you want to optional. Oh yes the old testament No no no. It’s meant in the New Testament too. Paul says you know slaves attend to your masters and you know your master should treat your slaves kindly and this is something that that that they say like oh well you see it is different being a slave if you want to Jehovah’s people because slaves were looked after.

[01:25:00] Well you read you read some of the books of Moses how you treat it like you could be a slave. You could be a slave with a stick. And if he doesn’t die the next day nothing happens. You don’t get punished as long as he doesn’t die. He can die a week later. What if he doesn’t have the next day that you know you’re okay and things like and you know you can. You can have sex with your women slaves and things and or under that do they say where some of that some some slaves voluntarily stayed with their masters and there was a thing where they nail easier to the door post like I looked into that I looked into that and I even asked a rabbi about this and you think about this let’s say for example you your wife and your children are all slaves to the same man. The man says to you you can my slave for seven years and will set you free if you want to keep keeping your wife and children what are you going to do. I know what I’d do Oh I’ll stay a slave please. I can have a wife. So of course you’re going to stay a slave Ana has nothing to do with being treated kindly could not be your slave even if you treat a kindly you must. And apparently God is fine with this you know. And of course you know that’s one way that’s how they treat you know you’re like slaves if you were if you were unfortunate enough to be a person captured in war or boy you’re in for a tough time you know because sometimes they would just kill everybody except for the young girls.

[01:26:23] Oh yeah they have to have somebody to rape. Yes. Of course on those things like I can’t remember the scripture that Mahad but you can look it up later Baer says you know when you go into battle and stuff to split open the pregnant bellies and all that smashed her head against the rocks baby’s heads. I think what’s in it and you see this god is pro-life. You’re going to the abortion but that’s OK. And you know this is nothing like abortion. You know I have my own beliefs on abortion but that’s something else. And on the subject entirely if you want to argue that God is against abortion if it’s if you’re saying you’re thinking abortion because of God. God kill David’s baby directly now. Now the scriptures where they go Well you know the soldiers go into battle probably shouldn’t have done that but you know they didn’t go out and say that they should do. God said that what would happen. And book out with no god kill day with baby he get. He used to miscarriage you know. So this as far as I’m concerned the God of the old testament as a monster. You want to get when you get to things like Jesus and stuff I think Jesus is more than likely probably just why is these a Jewish apostate doesn’t he. You’re looking he comes along with his own teachings. But again he wasn’t all that because a lot of things he said didn’t happen. You know I used fail prophecies which LATELINE MAY have to say oh well he meant this and he meant that. I don’t think he did.

[01:27:46] I think he’s a false prophet but um again that’s something else. Yeah. So basically what you’re saying is that you’re not going to go back to the truth anymore are you. No no I’m I’m I’m pretty much Bolle I’m an atheist now I read I read a lot of different religions. I stood I heavily studied Buddhism and Hinduism heavily because it was so fascinating to me. And I don’t agree with those religions but as parts of different religions that I think are useful. So there’s parts of Buddhism and Hinduism. Not that I don’t believe them to be true but there’s the seven ways of looking at the world and ways of looking at things which I think are useful. I read the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins and man that was a very good book that after I thought well I’ve got no I’ve no I have no right believing in and superstitious things I’ve no right believing in any god. And if God exists then he’s to blame for me not believing in it because it could be any reason to. So that was what really sealed it for me unless I had you know somebody appeared in front of me in front of my eyes and say they are God and give me proof. I will never become a just person. So yes when I left I started studying all kind of things I studied hypnotism and I actually am a qualified hypnotist. Now I can do all that. I’m not going to back me. You’re not going to make me bark like a dog.

[01:29:13] Then at the end of the Ottawa if I could do it over the telephone it could. No no. And I was nothing. The whole hypnosis thing I went to that when I went when I was studying it and I went to the classes and the hypnotist trainer said you know what are some of the misconceptions about hypnotism. So I put my hand up I said Look out. I was in a religion which said if you went in a trance a demon in your head and they were all like what a demon a pop in your head. Why would they say that I go. And like somebody said you know if you can look at the Bible and say maybe Jesus was doing that. You look at the myth that a mentalists an artists to magicians and you are famous who do things that Jesus did you don’t mean like your Pantelis example. I’ve seen Talla walk on water. It’s a trick. Yeah but he’s done it right. I don’t know how I don’t know how I did it. I’ve seen faith healers make somebody they thought they were like they had you know the demon inside them and that the faith healer does something and suddenly they don’t have a demon inside them and then this is explained by this there’s a popular magician in England called Devon Brown he’s a he’s a very good hypnotist and he does things like that. He copies everything Jesus that he can do. He can make.

[01:30:27] He even did one thing where he converted people he converted atheists to Christianity with a touch because he’s a very good him artist and something in the way he speaks he said something can touch them and they suddenly believe in God. And then afterwards he took away again but it just shows you how the human mind we don’t understand how it works but it can be manipulated you know definitely impressionable creatures. Yeah. So you know you’re learning these new things. You know since you’ve left is there is there anything that you’ve learned since you left that’s really impacted your life for the better. Is there anything that you know you don’t know how long have you been out now. I’m about two years now with this matter. Yeah that’s right. About fan timeline as I was. Is there anything that you’ve learned that really you know kind of helped you. I mean other than helping you get away from this cult. Is there anything that just helped you in your life for the better in a general sense. I would say my whole worldview now is to live and let live. Yeah people people have their own ideas on beliefs and just let them believe it unless it’s going to harm someone. That’s that’s something else but I really don’t really care what sort believes as long as they’re good people and that they treat people with respect. And it’s also may a massive thing that happens well as Miss feminism. I have a strong belief that women and men are equal and women. I met some women who are fantastic well educated OK. Oxford graduates who have very good teachers I’d say to them Well you know if you’re a Jehovah’s Witness they wouldn’t let you teach because you’re a woman which is ludicrous you know.

[01:32:02] So it’s like there was there was like really opened my eyes to the real world. So live after live let live attitude. I look at women in a different way now. There’s some really intelligent women there some people outsource it makes sense to get involved politically too. You have to be political in this day and age you have to be. It’s all very well saying I don’t vote because that would mean I’m voting. I’m maybe maybe this politician would bring in a policy of aggrieved later on but that’s that’s something else. But you have to be politically aware today because if you if you look at for example like World War Two with the Nazis invading left right and center it used to just sit there and let it happen. And you can’t you have to be involved you have to stand up and fight stuff like that. But that’s another thing I learned since Le’Veon as um you know sometimes people can’t be convinced because they don’t want to be convinced. When I speak to there’s a Web site called corer dot com where he’ll ask questions and you answer them I’m on the other way. I get like Jehovah’s Witnesses answer questions on there which you can tell they don’t know the whole truth. And sometimes you’ll comment on it and give them the truth and they don’t want to know. And you know you can you can apply all you want to keep going conversation but sometimes people don’t want to be a duck.

[01:33:19] They don’t want to be convinced sometimes they’re happy in their little religion and you know them if they feel safe in it and they don’t want to be moved from it and so you have to respect that too sometimes. It’s unfortunate but. Yeah. Yeah but I get back to that live and let live. Yes. Is there is there any way that your past life is still impacting you. Yeah I mean when I think about it everyday you know I think about this religion everyday and I wish I didn’t. I really wish it had kept up. It affects me everyday. Even when you read things in books about like controlling people like maybe you mean like an abusivee.V. to me like a newspaper article about an abusive abusive husband who beat his wife up and yet he sees similarities to religion. You’re like Oh he wouldn’t let his wife mix with anyone outside his family who wouldn’t let his wife read any magazines about this subject. Like yeah that’s exactly the same thing. Or you’ll read about like I mentioned earlier North Korea and North Korea. They have one news station one newspaper one leader who tells them what the truth is and that’s the truth. And they’re not allowed to question it because they be punished. So you noticed things around you and you and you can’t believe you were ever fooled by it. You can’t believe you ever involved and sometimes you feel ashamed that you’re involved it because you know some of the beliefs you have.

[01:34:40] It affects me mainly now because of my daughter because the witnesses are still trying to somehow influence that when it comes to because she sees them even now randomly Jehovah doesn’t like Christmas or Jehovah doesn’t like birthdays randomly should say she don’t know what your Hoeber is or who she says it is a set of sentences. But then I counter that straight away to say that’s OK he’s not real. And that’s it. Right. Oh she’ll say like Jehovah doesn’t like birthdays. That’s why I have to say to her what do you like birthdays. And she says yes. And I go so do I. And I say well that’s OK. I hope is not real. I’m at a book. But apart from that it only affects me because I know to say everywhere I go yeah. And you see these stupid Carter trying to get out your mind. See those cards. I’m lucky. National live somewhere where there aren’t many cards. Because now my heart would buy I would have a hard time not kicking him over every time I go on. You know the worst thing is lately they’ve had they been featuring the secret to family happiness. Yeah. What are you talking about. Family after family of a legend that has a truckload of destroying families and Eva Xiaobo. As I’ve met the life the royal family has been destroyed in some way. And this is the village Anna says Oh the secret to family happiness. The secret to finding happiness is all I’m concerned is don’t shoot each other. Yeah. Communicate. Yeah that’s a pretty good rule. Yeah. Yeah I mean did Kim anything when it comes to family. And I think if you have a disagreement communication you know if you and I had a disagreement we fell out. Right. I don’t think the communication.

[01:36:20] All you gotta do is talk to. Yeah or in the end. Live and let live. You don’t Savelyev agree on everything that’s okay. Exactly. I was going to ask you so you know you mentioned the family thing. So then if you could say anything to your family and friends that still shun you. There’s something that you could say to them what would you say. As I say to my family I would say I’m still the same person I was before except I’m just happier. I would say I would say I haven’t. I have no trouble with what you want to believe. I have I have no issue with you having a religion. I love you no matter what religion you are. It doesn’t matter to me. There’s no reason in the world I would have to shun you. There’s no reason no one could tell me to. No. Me too. Nobody could make me to have somebody dead. I would just tell them to something off. I would have to go. Why would I. And that is love. You know what. When you only see how weak is your love. If you only love somebody who agrees with you and is essentially a carbon copy or mirrors you in every way not love that’s control at best. I think I look I look at my and my little girl. I mean I mean I put it I put it to bed just before I ran I thought to myself if someone said to me I can’t give you eternal life in a perfect world. Right.

[01:37:50] As long as you show me this little girl forever. And in this perfect world she won’t be that. Well I would I would rather have I would rather have 50 more years of my life with hair and not be resurrected ever. I would rather have them in an imperfect world. I would want to live an imperfect world with my daughter and accept the fact that I will die one day but that would be a lot better I’ll be immeasurably happier today than living in a perfect world without a shadow. But what if Mark what if in the new system just like Joe lost his kids and was then given another set of kids later. What if that was OK. God killed the first you know allowed the first that to be killed but gave him another set a replacement set. So but what if you could abandon your daughter now and you would be given a random other children in this new perfect world so that you could forget all about her. I would hate that got it right. I get that messed up. Yeah. That the best they can come up with are even in jobs is that the best they could come up with is. Well I mean yeah God pretty much killed his kids but he gave them more kids later. You know it’s just it’s so horrifying. Yes. And you think let us take for example of jokes kids lie. I mean I’m a correctly I think a roof fell in on them. That’s not a nice death. That’s a bit terrifying. So they were terrified before they died. You had to.

[01:39:20] They had to go through terror for a while. Yeah. So talk to God to prove that God loves them. It’s got that insecure apparently could do something else you know couldn’t they wager something else. Why did it have to be that. Yeah. If he’s all powerful god you would think he could come up with a better wager. Well if it’s not powerful god there’s a lot more things he to. Yeah. If you think somebody ate some of his fruit. You know I mean that’s pretty much what it is. Let’s just really just does this kiss him on that tragic thing. Yeah. Right. Well so you’ve got is this new life now you’re free you’ve got your adorable little daughter. What are your dreams for this new life of yours. What are you hoping to do. Where you want to take it. But I’m I’m in university now part time I’m studying to be a therapist counselor for X court victims off which is which is a positive thing which is something I can relate to more that more so than the other students camp because I’ve actually been at a cult. So is that. And of course as a Ghazi’s hypnosis goes I’m hoping to include hypnotherapy with that. So there’s that side of it. Popham that I like my hobbies now I like photography and stuff and I through that I know a lot of models now which is cool. So I thought your home was written as I didn’t know many beautiful people. But like now I have a lot of beautiful friends now. So it’s. My girlfriends.

[01:40:52] I’m at Shindell I’ve been going out with them now since September it’s about five five or six months now things are going good. You know I mean I’ve had other girlfriends before. They didn’t work out too well. There’s always something I’ve got the label but this you know we have a lot of common religion doesn’t come into it. She she’s from a Catholic background but she’s not involved. She’s got the little girl herself. So religion is not the reason we’re together. We were together because we have the same likes and dislikes and we have the same you know ideas and you know what we disagree on many things too but that’s okay. Yeah yeah. You know it I mean her way of raising kids is different from mine but I don’t really I don’t want to get involved outside it that she does with her child way. But it’s so refreshing that you know you had somebody who you cause it. I know I know I know what she feels about me and I know what I feel about her and I know that the reason she’s with me is not because I knock on doors not because I give talks a lot because her dad is an elder. You know what. It’s there that I’m looking forward to a future where that goes much longer. And yeah just I’m just hoping to remain active in the GW community. I don’t consider myself an activist as such it’s Maura. I like that. You know I see what’s going on. I comment on it and make I make the occasional YouTube video when I have something to say.

[01:42:10] But that’s again I’m not trying to be John Setas interest. Yeah he’s got that locked down he’s got locked down. I mean I like the stuff he does. Yeah I do. So he does and I owe a lot to this man. I owe a lot to his work and particularly the be fetched Ofcom and Jehovah’s Witnesses tocome. Without without those websites Mannagh be lost. Yeah I agree. I agree. So what about your daughter. You have hopes for her for the future. You know what my only hope for her is that she’s happy. That’s all I actually say. Yeah I always say when might my ex-wife by the way has left the left the whole business as three weeks ago. And wouldn’t you know since she left her depression left as a man that yeah she did she still has OCD because that’s a clinical thing but it’s less than it was. So. So she’s not raising my daughter in as a witness either. So my daughter will have a normal upbringing. Well relatively normal. And I use the joke. But she being quite serious as well. I used that joke when she was going to the Kingdom Hall with a mom might say well you know I hope she’s older she’s a lesbian because that way the wet’s is one. So which is true. Yeah would never get that they were alone. But again like even if she if it if my daughter grew up to be sexual that really wouldn’t make a difference to me. And it’s so refreshing to be able to admit that yeah.

[01:43:35] You know that clearly doesn’t make a difference. As long as she’s happy as long as she’s safe AMCo that’s what you’re saying is that you hope your daughter grows up to be happy and you’ll love her whatever she does. Yeah that’s great that you know why it’s funny or sad that that would be a strange thing to say. Yeah and Jehovah’s Witnesses are none of our parents would have ever said that. No I know what it’s like even though I’m an atheist this doesn’t mean I don’t talk about religion at home anyway. So she doesn’t. She doesn’t have any religious instruction at all yet and is only 3 able. She grows up and stuff. I’m not going to talk about God and I’m not even going to tell her why there isn’t a god. The letter comes the conclusion not only on and if she did it if she decides to become a Jew or a Muslim or a Catholic a slut as long as she is Comstock inclusion on her own and she knows the ins and outs of it that’s fine. Well honestly I hope you become a Jehovah’s Witness of course. But yeah. But then of course if she got involved in that I would obviously tell which websites to read up on first so you know I don’t think she actually I don’t think that will never be around yielder. Yeah. So as long as she’s happy she’s healthy and she’s safe it’s all good and I believe and I don’t know if you want to say a name on here or not but you can give a shout out to your brother too who recently left.

[01:44:53] Yeah yeah my brother Daniel he left. He left the cult. He left about 3 months ago. Yeah but he didn’t. He didn’t do what I where he didn’t get active in the actual committee he does not even care. He just got on with life. He was going through a horrible time on. Was. He was. He tried to kill himself actually. But he was trying to he was trying to leave the Jehovah’s Witnesses. He stopped going to the meetings. He stopped going on the doors. He was getting hounded by elders. You know knock on his door people telling them you know you get your act together and come back to the truth and all this and he just wanted to. He just want to live as life as do his own thing and he actually tried to kill himself into the hospital. And after that he just wasn’t up. He was depressed for a while then you want to see him now. I mean I don’t I hardly see it now because he’s so active. He’s you have all of all things he’s interested in Chinese and he’s learning he’s taken Mandarin lessons. He’s actors in the Chinatown district of Liverpool just going out meeting people talking to people is like eating on dates with Chinese women. It’s like a different person a beautiful man. It’s amazing. I like that so often. Yeah he’s made about two postings on the forum you know. Actually it shows just a couple. But apart from that he’s not really interested in getting involved. He’s just like enjoying his life.

[01:46:13] So he’s got it just that he’s got his you know he plays mysterious instruments I say. I mean I saw I was in his house a few days ago and I said so as far as our I’m go said anything to you and now we said sometimes they try to ring me but don’t ask me phone so he isn’t he showing them he’s not there they’re trying to get in touch with him. But he doesn’t care because he’s like or them because I know because with the background that he had with them he needed to yes go on with his life. And yes he needs to be happy. And now you can tell them his iPod. Podcast’s famous. Yes I just had you know you know what Michael I don’t even he. He did not disfellowshipped that I know of. I think is he he disassociated. But then I think they they didn’t accept the letter or something involved where they wouldn’t accept the letter because they thought he wasn’t thinking clearly right. So when I say to him so are you just associated with this fellowship he says I’ve no idea how he does. All he knows if he’s free. It’s FREE AND HE’S DATING Chinese women and he’s speaking Chinese and he’s doing Chinese cooking. He’s like I don’t know what’s going on man he’s he’s happy so you know again that’s all you can wish for anybody right that’s left that’s it.

[01:47:29] Um I think he’s finding his feet you know he’s he’s just he’s doing what I did he’s looking to so many different subjects they’re finally finding out who he is what he likes and apparently he like Chinese women so that’s what whatever make a man have exactly exactly as you’re not hurting anybody oh no man I appreciate it. I think that that that was a really good interview. Is there anything that you would like to say that you know maybe I didn’t get to ask or get the cover. The only thing I would say is um if anyone I mean I don’t have any I don’t want to listen to this. If you do think you have the truth. I’m not I’m not trying to be provocative. If you think you have the truth then by all means look at different sides of the argument or someone says Oh I know something but Jehovah’s Witnesses that you don’t know well listen to what they have to say. If it’s a lie you’ll know it’s a lie. If it’s true that they should they should buckle up with evidence. If they don’t back up what evidence then I carry don’t listen to it but then I think 99 percent that actually WS cite their sources and so I do. I am not interested in and lies about the Watchtower Society. I’m not sure that the model. I don’t I don’t I don’t want people to leave because they’ve been lied to. But the most outstanding. So you’ll find a lot of extras Dedo abuse will always tell you where they got the information from. So if you have the truth. Make it your duty to make sure it is the truth. The Bible says you should test it to see if you are on the truth. Make sure azo are important things. That’s it. That’s it.

[01:48:59] So if someone says oh the Jehovah’s Witnesses are wrong about no one hundred forty four thousand well see why X Y. Why have they said that by all means try and convince them the opposite. Nolt. Listen to what they have to say. Surely if they’re saying that they’re wrong. You have blood on your hands I don’t need them again you should teach them. And personally I mean I know of all the extra doobies I’ve met. I don’t know any who hate Jehovah’s Witnesses as people. I don’t know any. I mean I I wouldn’t say hate by habit. I have a strong problem with the Watchtower Society and body I don’t hate Jehovah’s Witnesses. Why would I hate those ministers being deluded or deluded because they’ve been being fooled into being hurt you’ll stick them. They’re called victims and I was one of them. Yeah I did. I used to be afraid of apostacy afraid of apostates but you know if something is true you have nothing to fear. Absolutely nothing to fear. So again that new light that comes out well it’s only new light because somebody in Bethel is out there researching more. Which. Why can’t you do that. Why can’t you. If you’re given a if they’re given a body aren’t and spied on fallible. Neither you or I. So why is that opinion not worth more than yours. Right. So that’s all I had to say about that. But yeah I enjoyed this interview to make it’s been good.

[01:50:23] I want to thank Mark for making himself so available that you know he can come on here and tell his story even with the time difference and stayed out late you know telling this story to me as we got on the call. I want to thank Mark for the activism that he does making videos here and there I’ll put a link to his YouTube channel and the resources on the Web site. Mark has also begun Quora. Q You are a fan of some of you who may not know that’s a site where the general public can go and ask questions about things and get answers from experts on various subjects and you know Mark is a great fit there. He likes to get on there and help people understand the truth about the truth as we call it as Jehovah’s Witnesses are actually Jehovah’s Witnesses. If you’d like to continue the conversation you can go to the link in the description for this episode for my site. There you can leave comments for every person that’s interviewed. They’ll see the comments. They can reply you can spark a conversation with them. For some reason the links don’t show up in your podcast that you can go to shun podcasts dot com and on the episodes page you’ll see each one. You also have links for songs that each person chose to represent their journey resources that they mention ways to support the show. Not really just anything you might want or need. Oh and if you visit the site to leave them a comment or check out the resources that he mentioned. I thought I might be fine I’ll even include my favorite verse from the Book of Thomas. I think you’ll like it. It’s amazing.

[01:52:04] If you’d like to learn more about my story and the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses you can listen to my podcast series called ThisJ.W. life or find out more at thisjwlife.com if you’d like to support the podcast. You can do so in a few ways. First I love seeing comments and conversations on the show on podcast dot com website because it supports those that are being vulnerable and open and telling their stories. Second I love seeing five star reviews pop up on iTunes with great comments. It’s encouraging to see and it also helps lend credibility to what we’re doing here so that others might be able to find the show and get help. And finally there is no charge for the show. But if you’d like to make a voluntary contribution to the worldwide work that actually helps somebody and my data friends are going to get why I said it that way you can support the show financially by going to patreon.com/shunned on his 80 hour Eoin and for as little as a dollar a month you can help support the show. All musical support for the show is from Poddington Bear and next month we’ve got a great interview with Fernando. He’s a really fascinating story about being gay in the organization. And you know what that was like how he felt knowing that he was condemned by his very nature inside the cult. So joining us again in June and learn more about him. His journey out of the cult and how his life has gone after losing so much.

[01:53:39] So as always love others do no harm and go be happy.

Brenda Is Shunned By The FLDS.mp3

[00:00:12] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we get to hear stories from people that have been silenced by controlling religious today we’re going to hear from Brenda a woman that is shunned by the FLDS or if you’re unfamiliar the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints the FLDS are a fundamentalist group of religion that are more often known as the Mormons. They’re just a subset of that. They came to be early in the 20th century as a split from the Mormons occurred and they are known for their practice of polygamy which is one of the biggest reasons they split off originally the headquarters was located in Short Creek in Arizona. You’re going to hear many references to short Korek by Brenda. That’s the area she was from short Cricks Short Creek in doing some research and it appears that they have little colonies spread out in different areas of Arizona Utah North Dakota South Dakota Colorado Texas and even British Columbia. According to Wikipedia it is estimated that there are between six and 10000 members and they may even be developing colonies in Oklahoma California and the Mexican state of Sonora. I was a little bit familiar with who the LDS were. I’d seen shows on TV about them at times most notably about their leader Warren Jeffs. Warren Jeffs is their leader even today from prison as he’s serving a sentence of life plus 20 years for felony sexual assault.

[00:01:46] I couldn’t help but be reminded of the show on Hulu called The Handmaid’s Tale as I was listening to Brenda tell her story and apparently this struck a chord with Brenda during the interview so I’m sure there are a lot of things there and she will address during the interview that that are reminiscent you know sadly there are still places in this world even in the developed world where women are still treated this way. This story is amazing. I know that a lot of my listeners are former Jehovah’s Witnesses because you know that’s my background and this all kind of sprang from that. I know that what you’re about to hear is more extreme than what we lived as Jehovah’s Witnesses. But if you look back you know behind it all all the methods and manipulations are very familiar. There’s a lot of crossover that the extremity might be different but the tools and techniques used are often the same. For others this might just be a look in the lives that maybe they led as former members of theF.L. to ask themselves or you know maybe you’ve never been affiliated with any of this and it’s just opening your eyes and and shedding a light on something that that other people are going through and that you will be able to see in the future and have compassion for. So let’s go ahead and get into the interview. Let’s meet Brenda My name is Brendan Nicholson. I am 45 years old. I was an F LDS member. And now I am shamed. All right so then how was it that you came to be in the LDS my parents were actually members of the mainstream LDS church before I was born. And then my father met a man through his job in Southern California.

[00:03:45] He was working at the Boeing plant who was a member of theF.L. the S and through that he found out about the fundamentalist polygamist group there in southern Utah. And I can’t explain how they decided that but somehow he convinced my mother and they decided to convert to that and they moved us to from California to Utah. When I was a baby and so I wasn’t born into it but that’s I mean I didn’t remember anything before that that’s the only life I ever knew. Yeah. So yeah that is quite a quite a feat to I wonder how many people are converted into LDS. Is that something that that happens very often. So about the same year that my family converted another family converted out of Southern California. Also we had no connection with them. It was the Nicholson family and they had also been members of the LDS church. Only John Nicholson the father had somehow this is another story of an Monch Charlie sure how they worked that out. He had taken on a second wife that he met while they were still members of the LDS church so they got excommunicated and then he found out about the fundamentalists. And they also moved from California and joined the LDS and there were a couple other families that I knew of growing up that had converted around the same time. But as far as I know there were very few if any who converted beyond that time. So that was in the early 70s. They aren’t extremely welcoming of new people. You know they aren’t they don’t have a lot of trust for people.

[00:05:52] And the reality is when you if you lay out to people what they’re going to be required to give up there’s not a whole lot of people that are interested. There aren’t a lot of men that are looking for a second or third wife but they’re not really anxious to give up everything to get out. You know there’s other groups to join in a ways to go about that. So there’s not a lot of people that work. Got you. All right so then what was your growing up in this. What was the world view that this LDS religion gave you. I mean I know a little bit about it you know from some research I’ve done online you know Wikipedia and things like that but you know how did it make you see the world. Well basically we were taught that you know the few thousand members of the. At that point when I was growing up we just called it the work or the priesthood work. It didn’t become theF.L. and that stands for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. But we didn’t call it that until I was a little bit older. I think like in the 80s. But basically we were taught that the people who were members of our religion were the most favored of all God’s children. We had been brought there and preserved the entire foundation of the United States was put in place by God to provide a place where we could live our religion in freedom.

[00:07:32] You know a lot of people benefited from that but we were the focus of every historical event led was either inconsequential or on purpose to provide the way for us to live polygamy and follow God’s laws anyone who was not a member of our little group were either gentiles which was people who were never part of the group or didn’t ever believe or apostates and apostates or people who used to believe and leave and they were the absolute worst people in existence. They were considered traitors to God. And the worst people you could spend time around but even the Gentile world we were told they were out to get us. They were all under the control of the devil and the devil would use them in any way he could to stop the work of God to come after us the laws that were put in place were through the inspiration of the devil even laws like underage marriage child labor. That was the devil trying to keep us from being able to teach our kids to work you know and put them in the factories and whatever. So I had a very basically a lot of fear. Everything was there. Everyone was out to get us. The government wanted to come in and tear apart our families and throw our fathers in jail. And we were just had to hold on until the great distractions can wipe half awake. Wow. It’s so it’s so fascinating you know. You know I’m an ex Jehovah’s Witness and a lot of my audience were former members of that faith and so much of this rings true because you know we went through a lot of the same things that you know you had this evil world out there that you were to be in fear of you know fear ruled everything.

[00:09:31] And you know the same definitions you know I am an apostate according to Jehovah’s Witnesses the exact same things. You know we were to be in submission to the rules and laws and dictates of the world governments. But as long as it didn’t go against what they said was God’s law which was cause was Jehovah’s Witnesses law. Yes. Of course their own brand of it. So it’s it’s really fascinating to hear the similarities and just the way that these different so-called spin control and manipulate people through the exact same tactics. So you know there may be differences within the courts. Yeah but when I was in high school Warren Jeffs I remember Warren Jeffs tale telling us how there’s all these different false religions out there. And every one of them thinks they have the truth but how lucky and fortunate and blessed we were to really be the only ones with the truth. And I remember that little doubt popping up in my mind thinking that they all are saying the same thing. So how do I know. But you know everything you know all of the people you know are in this group so you might as well stick with it because what other choice do you have right. Now for you you were even coming into the room. Obviously you were a baby. But how did that impact you you know growing up you know it’s not you’re new into this group. So how do they view you or did you have a hard time kind of getting fitting in. Well when I was younger I mean my mother homeschooled us. We were extremely poor. You know for years my mother didn’t even have a driver’s license.

[00:11:38] And so being outsiders we grew up in Salt Lake. We just lived in a house in a normal neighborhood among the Gentiles. But we weren’t supposed to associate with the Gentiles so we didn’t fit into the world that we lived in. But I also came to understand that we didn’t really fit in to the world of the religion because when I started school at 12 I went to seventh grade. I found out that most of the people the people they already had their groups they had their their little and what it was is these girls that were my age. The people they played with were their own sisters you know they had sisters their same age from other mothers or they were friends with their aunts or their nieces because you have these huge families and you’re all having babies at the same time. And so they all had their family groups they had their friends they had the people they did with that their parents trusted. And there really was no place for an outsider to fit into that world. So that was hard. Also I did make some friends there were a few other families that were smaller families couples that only also had one mother our house only had one mother. They had fewer children and weren’t as integrated in these huge elite names that I did make friends with. But it was quite eye opening to me when I started school. I got put into a grade of a classroom was 24 students.

[00:13:20] There are 12 girls and boys and I was so excited I was going to have 11 best friends because we were all saints and we all grown up the same way and you know the whole religion teaches love and acceptance and we’re all equals. And it didn’t take me very long to realize that basically there is a wide gap between the principles of the gospel that we’re taught and what people were actually living and that was a real wakeup call for me. I had spent my life up to that point just hearing the stories going to church and listening to what was said and believing that this was really how it was because I had nothing to compare it with. So it was a lonely childhood I guess. I mean we had a large family ourselves. But it was. It was hard. I know my mother was always under a lot of stress and I honestly grew up not believing that my parents loved me. I mean I knew they they cared about me but I didn’t feel like they truly loved me and I and I spent a lot of time looking forward to the day when I’d get married because then somebody would love me because God would tell them they had to love me and that is interesting. You know first of all you see that in these cults it seems like there’s always cults within the cults really you know almost all of them are very klick ish and they they all I mean it’s human nature anyway to kind of segment off into groups is just what humans do as part of communities but you just see how it really gets down to the micro level in these cults when you know families become their own calls and Jehovah’s Witnesses had the same thing.

[00:15:19] We didn’t we didn’t have it nearly like what you’re talking about. I mean you’re happier you have an extreme version of that but it yes big families tended to dominate inside the organization. And it was very hard you know as an outsider to to make friends ever feel like you really fit in. And then you have even things like you know inside your own family like you said you felt this lack of love yeah. Well in another part of human nature is that I think we all tend to gravitate towards certain people. And so the more children you have. I mean my father had some definite favorites and it wasn’t me you know. Yeah. And so even you have that. And then you go out to the bigger world where you’re not a favorite and you don’t settle. And when you’re your life and your very salvation depends on being accepted and included. It’s really devastating to feel like you. You don’t know how to change enough or what you need to do to finally break into that inner circle. And it’s so hard because you have these inner circles and really everyone like you is that even with your parents. This disconnect you felt with the ultimately their love their highest love is for the church it’s for them. It’s not. It can’t be for you because you have already given that to something else. Jehovah’s Witnesses. And I’m probably going to butcher this but they had a principle of a gap a love. It was a word you’d think it was in the Greek scriptures and it was to be this it was a love based on principle.

[00:17:22] And when you think about a love based on principle it’s kind of like this. It’s kind of an unfeeling love it’s kind of utilitarian it’s like well you know I gave birth to you therefore I must love you right. It’s very scripted. There’s no real emotion wrong or humanity to it. This is the rule you must love me right now that’s not true love. Right it’s a very dead love. It’s and it’s very unfortunate so no I don’t have to ask your parents do you. Do you have any ideas. Like what. What do you think. If you had to speculate and if you don’t have an answer that’s fine too. But what do you think may have been behind them seeking this out. In other words like a lot of people will seek out very controlling religions because they feel out of control in their life and they’re looking for some sort of a structure that they think maybe will fix their problems. Was there was there something going on. Was there trauma maybe in your parent’s past or something that you think kind of attracted them to as far as I know. I don’t know of anything along those lines. My father was raised very much in the LDS church. Most of that side of the family still are to some degree or another still LDS. My mother was actually raised tend to think I think they were Lutheran but they never really I mean like in name only. She doesn’t remember when I told her she didn’t remember going to church or whatever. She married my father.

[00:19:09] Two weeks after she turned 18 she told me that her parents were not in favor of her marrying my father and so they just waited till after she was 18 and they couldn’t stop her and she also confided in me at one point when I was in high school a really long story but it came down to that she told me that her father had molested her when she was a child that she had at some point told her mother and her mother denied it and basically she was in trouble for having even made such accusations. Looking back on it now I think that that has shaped and coloured her life to a great degree. I mean I’ve learned a lot about the effects that being subjected to sexual abuse have on a child’s mind and on your entire life. Beyond that I when I was younger I thought well my parents were so amazingly faithful. I don’t know if I could have done that. You know having the freedom of of being a gentile and choosing to subject myself to this kind of life especially for my mother. But as time went on and then like it was after I got married my father was finally given his first plural wife. And she is like a year older than me and I remember how weird that was that my father was married to and sleeping with a girl because of caution on my eye and in my eyes she’s just this other girl that I went to school with his younger daughter. I’m the second oldest. My sisters four years older than me. And it was just so weird.

[00:20:57] And that was the closest I had been to seeing polygamy in real life I’d never been close to anyone when they got a new wife. I knew families that had two or three mothers but it’s been that way forever. And after watching him and the way he conducted himself the way he treated his younger wives and what he did to my mother. I have a hard time not thinking that he was all in it for the idea of I can sleep with a bunch of women and say God. And you know growing up in the LDS faith they already had the concept that polygamy was part of their religion and would be lived in the next life so why would it be wrong to go ahead and jump start that now. Yeah and don’t they do the wise you didn’t it’s how old was the first wife or second wife that he had gone well then when he married her. I’m trying to think she must have been in her early 20s in the AFL. There were like these waves they would go where they girls were getting married earlier and earlier and earlier when I was I don’t know maybe 11 or 12. I remember there was a girl that I became aware of that she had gotten married when she was 13 and I remember thinking oh that would be so nice. I’d only have a few more years and I’d be out of my father’s house.

[00:22:27] And then you’d have all these this rash of marriages and they seemed like they’ve got younger and younger girls and then something would happen and the leaders would decide well we’re not doing that and then they’d wait in the next group of girls didn’t start getting married until they were 19 20 21. You know they had been looked at as extreme old maid at one point and then it would go through the cycle again. So after I was married so my younger sisters didn’t get married until they were 20 21 and then it started working its way back down. You know by the time I left I heard about these young girls were getting married at 12 or 18 and it wasn’t something that had never happened before. So it wasn’t like a huge shock to me. At the same time by then I had a daughter who was that age and it terrified me to think of her being taken and given to some old man in a marriage and to be completely honest I kept thinking Yeah I know that they’re marrying these little children. That’s really what they were. But I’m sure that they’re not consummating the marriage. They’re just trying to get these girls into these faithful good girls into a good man’s home. So when everything comes apart and the government comes in to destroy us they’ll be protected I had no idea. Yeah. Yeah. Well you know because it’s it’s hard to. It really is hard to wrap your mind around. Just in doing research you know a little bit before I got on the call I was on your blog maybe which I’ll link to in the show notes but I think there was in one of your recent shows some images of a think she was 12 or 13 year old. Yeah. Yes. She had just turned 12. Yeah.

[00:24:34] And that’s just it’s just. Well it’s a child. Yeah. Yeah. It’s so disturbing. Just. And when you’re when you’re in that and you feel like here and you know that your entire salvation and the salvation of our children and everything in your life depends on you being faithful. You just can’t let your mind go to imagining these men that stand up before you in church and that you trust would do that to a child. You look at your own child and think oh no these are good men. They would never do that. They just put it in them from that. You can’t even comprehend that you just don’t let yourself think. No no no no. You know I think anyone in a court has a lot of cognitive dissonance and you know something like that you would it would be very hard to wrap your brain around your emotions around the fact that that was going on. Because it’s so natural Yeah. It’s a survival tactic really. Yeah can’t allow yourself to think that because it’s so contrary to you know it throws up all kinds of red flags. You and you get to think about it. So you just try not to think about it.

[00:25:46] What I read in maybe maybe this is an all of the because from what I guess from what I read the LDS Church has communities in lots of different cities not just in one particular area but that they were so so obviously because there are you know there’s a 50/50 chance of having a boy or a girl there’s going to be a point at which there’s not enough girls to go around for all of the men that would be in the organization. So they they go the boys at some points in the competition they do of course they never they never put it that way of course. You know we love these boys we would never send my way. But they choose to not follow the rules and we can’t let them be her to corrupt our innocent children whatever you like throwing a football or watching television or something like that. Clearly things just don’t kick them out. Absolutely yeah. You know it’s the boys that just get accused of that. The Lord revealed to the prophet that you had an immoral thought about a girl. Boom. Out you go. Oh wow. And you know there’s no way for you to to argue against that. Because what you’ve been taught your whole life is that’s God telling his prophet that you did that. So instead you internalize it and try to rack your brain. When did I do that. Was it this. And you start becoming your own worst critic and you just yourself implode. You can’t think you can’t function. It’s true. You know I’ve done some research and the whole world over within one percentage point. Birth rates are about 50 50 50. Right. So Mormon fundamentalism. You know Joseph Smith taught a man had to have a quorum of at least three wives to be an apostle I believe there are some different positions in the priesthood hierarchy that you have to have at least be a polygamist or have three wives or more.

[00:27:58] And to get to the highest degree of the celestial kingdom in the next life you have to have at least three wives and you think OK well that’s their beliefs but you have to then step back a minute and think okay that means that two thirds of the males born into these closed societies will not have a girl available for them to even have one wife. They’re all being taken right. And then you know I know one man who has 27 wives. I know my father had three. Warren Jeffs ended up with something like 80. And somewhere I wrote about that too where I listed how many of the wives when he married them they were under 18 you know and by age you’d have Hower. I think there are 20 23 of them under age marrying girls off they’re not old enough to vote. They can’t even have any say in their life in the politics that surround them. Not that we were allowed to do that anyway. How many of them they thought he married before they were old enough to drive you have to kind of put it in perspective in your mind. These girls were so trapped not just mentally and spiritually by the religion they were brought up in but by the laws because society as a whole does not see people as at that age as responsible enough to take on adult responsibilities or they are being married off to men three or four times their age. And they don’t have any rights when it comes down. Yeah that’s horrible. And then even when so I know Warren Jeffs is in prison. Yes.

[00:29:45] I don’t know was for 30 something years or something like that. And I don’t know how old he is. So he’s getting close to 60 I believe and they arrested him in August of 2006. So. And the other thing to mention here is that at least by the time I had left and I think it’s still the same no more marriages have been performed. He wouldn’t allow anyone else to do that. Oh it’s been 11 years. You’ve got members out there. These girls that are in their 30s with no no hope of ever being able to you know for them. They believe that being married and having children is their only value of ever having that happen. You’re not allowed to flirt with anybody you’re not allowed to have feelings. And these are grown women and men who are trapped in this environment and so on the one hand I’ve thought well that’s good. No more underage girls are getting married off. But they’ve torn people apart so much in the way the whole thing is organized or however you want to put it I have a very hard time believing that there isn’t huge amounts of abuse going on. You don’t have to have a spiritual marriage or anything to abuse people who you know or some pretty horrific rumors I can’t I can’t prove it’s true. But it fits.

[00:31:26] I mean with everything that I saw the stories I’ve heard the things I know that were going on that men were doing with you know you’ve got these men that have a handful of wives and they’re still molesting their daughters when they’re told they can’t have sex with their wives anymore they’re not going to because they know that that wife is also going to report. She understands that if they try the wife will tell on them now but you are going to create this hyper sexualized culture than for the men yes. And’s the men no longer are having sex with their wives because they’re their wives belong to Warren Jeffs now or he said Now sex so if you if you don’t qualify if you don’t follow the rules well enough then you get kicked out. I mean there’s been so many men that were sent away to repent and maybe you go and some by some miracle you figure stuff out enough that they allow you to come back but as soon as you get sent away then you’ve lost priesthood. And if you don’t have priesthood you have no right to hold onto your wives or children or your baptism or anything else that the church. You know that’s an ordinance right. So you know it back years ago they were really reorganizing families you know they’d kick a man out and then divide his wives and children up and marry them to other men. Now they don’t shortages. So they have caretakers and you’ll have some men. Sometimes it’s some young boy because you know at 12 you can get the priesthood and you now have more authority than any female so you’ll have your twelve year old boy put in charge of this household of women and children and women. So we left in March of 2012. And my husband and I had been found unworthy. So that meant that he no longer had the priesthood.

[00:33:37] Our marriage was no longer valid or baptisms we we weren’t members of the church and we were told by Lyle Jeffs in our meeting that now that we were no longer for anyone unworthy more than a handshake with your husband or wife or anyone would be adultery that would classify as adultery. And before long they qualified it even further and he said the handshake had last no more than three seconds. So you’ve got these men who have grown accustomed to having a group of women at their beck and call who are all desperate for some love and attention. They do you know each one of them is totally honed in on him and what he wants and what they can do when favor all of a sudden that’s all stripped away. And he’s not supposed to be doing anything right. So everyone’s desperate to gain their salvation. He knows he can’t go to his wives even if they’re all still living in the same house. They’re no longer allowed to do anything. If he does something with that wife he’s a huge risk even suggesting of her reporting in her letters that she has to send in that he was trying to be immoral because she’s got to confess or she could be sent out. He’s now in trouble. He understands that his wives know what is and isn’t OK. So instead they turned to these children who have been raised with no education. They don’t know how their own bodies work. They don’t know that they have any rights and they can easily because they’ve been taught to revere men and priesthood tell them the Lord told me this is what we’re supposed to.

[00:35:27] This is a preparation for the day when you’re when we’re allowed to have marriages again. All that kind of stuff I’ve actually heard stories of men doing these things meant yes. And these children don’t have a clue. They don’t feel like it’s right. But it got to a point where nothing happened in our lives felt right. Anymore you couldn’t use that as a determination. Do you know if you don’t yeah they take away or you trust in your own your own thoughts and feelings. That was something that we were taught to not trust our own hearts because the hardest treacherous who can know it. And so you know when you when you can strip a person from their own their own internal conscience essentially you can insert your influence to become their conscience. So it sounds like that’s what’s happened here. Absolutely yeah. Oh there’s a lot of stories I could tell but even if I didn’t give names if the people involved heard they’d know I was talking about and that they would not go well for me. It’s it’s sickening. It really is. And it was hard enough when I was part of it. But after I stepped away. So when I left I actually honestly believed that Warren Jeffs was still the most paramount on earth because they told they drilled into us everyday that he had perfected himself sitting there in prison and that we the people were the ones at fault for him still being held there because we were supposed to you know once we became worthy of God’s blessings.

[00:37:15] He would deliver a Warren from prison and we’d been told that each one of us held a key and we all had to be able to be worthy to unlock the prison that would let him free. And it was really hard for me because once I realized that there were no marriages with him in prison I had the realization that as long as he has in prison I didn’t have to fear that my husband was going to walk through the door with some young girl as a plural wife. And it’s really really hard to truly exert all the fervency of your soul when you feel like you’re praying against your own best interest. If he was there I was safe did I really want him out yet right. I wanted one more day of knowing that I was the only person in my husband’s life that I didn’t have to watch him revolve in love with some other woman or girl wrote and about it. But it does something to your psyche to feel like I I’m so weak that I’m not willing to live my own religion that I claim I believe in and my unwillingness to suffer a little bit or sacrifice is keeping our prophet trapped in prison. And it’s horrible the guilt that you feel. Isn’t that amazing how these people or groups these people who have victimized so many people somehow flip it all around so where they are the poor abused victim. It’s absolutely it’s mindblowing. So how. Let’s look at how how this kind of like develops so like you’re a kid and you’re in this organization this cult.

[00:39:12] How is it that they are drilling this into your head you know like what was your life like at home at school when you did eventually go to school or in the church like how did it how did all of that kind of coalesce to to strip you of all of that how did it indoctrinate you. What was that indoctrination process. Well you first of all any time you get involved in a culture or even some of the way a lot of the religions work they work hard to make sure that your religious dogma surrounds you in every area of your life. So like I say we didn’t do much with other people. When I was growing up you know until I was twelve or so. So we had our own. We were supposed to have our own Sunday schools. My father would read Bible stories or Book of Mormon stories and they drill into you know this is what happens to the wicked and this is how God feels about those who don’t follow his rules. And we you know they use fear. Absolutely. You know that we’d been told that the end of the world as we knew it was going to come on or before the year 2000. So you have that at home. And then you go to church and you hear that a whole lot more. And then I started school. They make they have their own private schools. They leave. Fill them with their teachers and our curriculum was 100 percent had to be approved and run through Warren Jeffs and his father Rulon Jeffs who was the prophet at that time.

[00:41:00] You know I had our books had pictures cut out of them or they buy one book and alter the pictures and black things out and then run off copies so that you didn’t see pictures of kids in short sleeves or girls doing things girls weren’t supposed to do. You know girls don’t have jobs they didn’t have careers. You were supposed to be a mother. The only and greatest aspiration a girl had was to become a worthy mother in Zion. That was it. And in school they had a shoot. I can’t remember I think it was like half hour 45 minute class our morning devotional that started we opened the school day with Warren Jeffs was the principal and he taught most high school classes. And so you’d have that well back up a little bit. We had been told they printed sermons of Leroy Johnson. He was the prophet before Rulon Jeffs whose prophet when I was a child and we had been told that every man should own a set of those and that they should have classes every morning and every night and read a sermon to their families and you’d just keep going through the books so you’d start your day. You’re supposed to have your personal prayers then you’d go have family prayer and listen to a sermon you had prayers at your meals you’d go to school. It opened with prayer. You sat through 45 minutes or however long of Warren Jeffs reading sermons. We were assigned to read two chapters of the book of mormon every night write out a lesson and then we discuss it and more in class the next day. You know you had prayer for lunch you had prayer for to end the school day. You had prayer when you got home.

[00:42:49] And everywhere you turned there were men in suits generally telling you the same story. Turning your heart to the prophet your wicked if you look at the boys or the boys look at the girls you’re supposed to treat each other like snakes dangerous snakes because they had arranged marriages they couldn’t have you liking a boy your own age. Some old men might want you and that would mess the whole system up. No Robert he isn’t who he really was. I remember yeah and I remember as I got older seeing things on the news or whatever where people were saying that the winner and the FLC asked for just chat and I was so offended. How dare they. How dare they say that. I had my choice and I chose to obey. And now I look at it and like you know that’s how blind Schley making them. They make you convinced to fight against your own survival and that you’re happy about it. You know it’s it’s amazing the similarities between all the. Is it so amazing that they that they can strip you’re your basic desires and humanity away from you like that. And then at the same time make you feel like you have your basic desires and matter. Exactly. It’s amazing because we did this thing being I mean I used to get offended when people would say people use it’s all Jehovah’s Witnesses. They would tell me that you’re brainwashed and brainwashed. I can I can leave the day if I can do anything I want. And it’s you know exactly. It’s so crazy.

[00:44:30] And look I go wow I so brainwashing you an old rain. I was a broken watch. And it’s it really is incredible the amount of power they have. It is the further it the more generations I’ve been doing some study about generational trauma and basically well it’s hard because for me I grew up in the Gentile world to some degree. There was our little family there the 13 houses on the street. I grew up in was my world. And we were surrounded by gentiles and we had things almost everyday to reassure us that the things we were being taught was true. We had some families on our street that refused to let their children talk to us because we were those gross polygamists. There was World was wicked. They were shunning us when we were really the righteous ones. So growing up. So then you didn’t. I guess I always thought that the Avoda as essentially had many campaigns that would you want to call it and that everyone lived kind of within those walls then that’s not true. No. When I was growing up we had of course the short creek we always call it short Creek. It’s the twin towns down on the border of southern Utah and northern Arizona. It’s actually the Tulsidas Hilldale Arizona side as Colorado City and it was a community. The church owned all the property. Every place every home built there every building everything was consecrated was church property which meant the church had the right to kick you out if they felt like you weren’t following the rules even if you built your own house.

[00:46:19] You turned it over to the church and they could take it. Everybody was okay with that because for years and years that was understood we all agreed with it but it never happened. You just grow up in your house and it was kind of like a formality. Yeah that’s Thurbert nothing’s ever gonna happen with it. So because the church owned all the property they also controlled who lived there so it was only people who were members of the church there weren’t walls around it. Not physical walls but those psychological walls are far more powerful. Oh yeah yeah. You said there were gentiles on your screen gentiles were outsiders right. Yes but I grew up in the Salt Lake Valley I didn’t grow up in community so there is the short Creek group. There was the salt lake group which there are fewer of us but we’re just scattered throughout the valley. Rulon Jeffs had a big piece of property there at the mouth of Little Cottonwood Canyon. We used his home for the school. That’s where we had our meetings. It had a big wall around it and of course we always looked at it as being somewhat symbolic of the protection that that the church and God gave us that kept the bad people out we were safe there. And then there’s also a community in just over the border up north in Canada and they had more of their own community as well. But for those of us who grew up in Salt Lake we did grow up you know surrounded by the outside world.

[00:47:58] We went to the store with all the gentiles we know but in a way that actually was worse because you were in contact with it. It made it where you. You didn’t trust the people because you were taught to never trust them while they were your next door neighbors. I absolutely agree. Jehovah’s Witnesses are allowed to be in. You know we had normal quote normal lives. You know we went to public schools at times or we you know works in the world or whatever and you know we even went to you know football games or basketball games or to the park or whatever you know around other people. Yeah. But you were taught to see things in such a way that it always reinforced your beliefs you would see some kid acting out and oh well there you go see those world kids are not being disciplined they’re not being taught right that. And so yeah it really it really does create that prison of your own your own mind and your own emotions. Yeah. Well when I was a teenager we moved to a different house in a new neighborhood in Salt Lake and I and my younger sister went through the experience of having the old man. I mean I say old he had a son my age he is probably as early forties I have no idea maybe of 30s that we had in my window at night in the summer and that man would go in his room sometimes in his bedroom and flip on the light and be in there totally naked. You knew we were there and it terrified me. He would I mean that was the first time I’d ever seen a naked man especially in that condition. But it was just another reinforcement.

[00:49:54] Oh my word there right. That’s the kind of evil men that live in the world and the devil knew that we were these good girls and so he inspired that man to expose himself to us. And it just it just makes you isolate yourself even further. And there’s been a lot of talk lately about how we need to decriminalize polygamy because it being illegal is why people are isolated. You know these people would love to report abuse but they don’t dare because if they report abuse their dad will go to prison for being a polygamist. But all I can say having grown up in it I have never yet spoken to another person or woman whatever who ever voiced to me that they lived in fear of being prosecuted for polygamy. Never. Not one because it just doesn’t happen anymore. At this point I have had my own feelings. I’ve seen other people where the fear was that we can’t let this be be known what’s going on in our communities because then the world would say that that’s what we are and we’ve got to protect the image of the church and our prophet above all nuns. Oh it is. And I can remember as a Donald when I was living in short Creek later and watching the things going on and and hearing that rhetoric and thinking well what do you mean the world will think that’s who we are. That is who we are. And you think to change it. We’re just seeing it right.

[00:51:35] And the reality is it’s like I was trying to explain to someone so what you’re telling me is that people know that abuse is happening. They won’t report it because they don’t want Uncle whoever or dad to go to prison because they’re polygamists. Otherwise they would report the abuse. Do they not understand that if they report the abuse the guy is going to prison or should go to prison for sexually abusing children. It’s not about that they fear prosecution or persecution for polygamy. Polygamy is unsustainable especially in today’s world it is impossible for one man to support the other one man. I know men like my father even. And that’s a pretty small number. He had three wives. Right. Twenty three children. One man can’t make it can’t work a job that provides that many people with the necessities of life. And that’s you know and that’s looking at the financial end of it that while he’s trying to provide the financial end of life for that many people he’s not there to provide IMO Oceanus support. He’s not connected to those wives and children and a lot of men it’s like you know what when they go home. It’s this nonstop whining. This Wife wants that that wife wants that these kids are a problem and they just don’t know how to deal with it also. They’re happy to be off working. Yes. Yet you isolate yourself for several reasons. One they want to have their own private schools. They don’t want they will never have their children out and free in your world because that would put in their mind the idea that you know things like It’s OK to date it’s OK to wear pants for girls.

[00:53:34] It’s ok all of those things the world the ideas is what they’re protecting their children from. So even if polygamy was legal that’s not going to change. They’re not going to start sending their kids to public school. Warren Jeffs and men like him are not going to march there twelve year old up to the city hall and get a marriage license. None of that is going to change the welfare fraud is going to keep happening. Yes and the mist and the brains of each other aren’t in it. So isn’t it from what I read. So then the husband has one legal wife. Yes. Was in all of the I guess the sister wives then are essentially single mothers. And so then they apply for government assistance and get that and then I guess they all pull it together and yet support the household Exactly. So like you’ll have a man owns a business it’s a very profitable business. He makes a lot of money. That’s how he maintains his house and his fancy truck and all the cars in the House and whatever. He has one legal wife and sometimes they’ll even like send a bunch of young boys to work in one of their companies pull all their hours together and they’re not old enough to work there so they will cut a check in the name of the legal wife even though she never really sets foot in the building. But that way. That’s how they pay for it. It keeps the money out of the hands of these young boys. They’re told that they should do that to help support their father’s family and be good Priester people.

[00:55:14] And so the on his legal wife can show this income they rip. They file their taxes whatever. Then he has all these other wives and they’re groups of children who are being supported by him as far as they’re living in the house he pays for. He pays for their utilities. He makes sure they have a car. He provides their clothing and all of that but they don’t report any of that. They go and they as far as the government looks at it. They’re on equal footing with Mary who is truly a single mother who has to try to take care of her kids her house all those things but they show no income. They claim themselves as single mothers they they don’t report who the father is. Otherwise the father should be good being gone after for child support and that sort of thing. So then you have a house where the man’s bringing in the money you’ve got boys out very often working under age that brings in some more money and then the rest of the family is all on getting the maximum benefits they can as single mothers and children of single mothers who have no income. You mean they don’t have any other name that they don’t have a car. Yeah they all have a bunch of kids. Well I don’t even have a car. Look I have nothing in my name.

[00:56:40] And so they can get cash assistance sometimes and it’s it’s unfair it’s but they feel good about it because all these stupid laws you know that make it so kids can’t go to work we can’t put our kids in a coal mine when they’re 10. Those reps hired by the devil. So it’s OK if you as long as you don’t get caught if you can play the system because the Lord wants us to have the best of everything and the system is evil and ran by the devil anyways so taking them that you know how how can that be bad. Are you taking from the devil systems. Now. I’ve known men who you know they’ve got three wives and they’re not connected financially you know there as far as so you’ll have the man and his legal wife will rack up all the debt they can buy everything they want. File Bankruptcy. During that time the other wives have credit cards and they’re buying things so they still have credit and they’ll go on a cycle where between the three of them and they can each file bankruptcy every seven years. They’re just spending as much money as they can with no intent of paying it back and then filing bankruptcy. So you have a new set of you know you could file bankruptcy as a fan as whoever is bringing in all the credit every two or three years each one of you only doing it every seven. I mean I I remember talking to a man who showing people at the company this fancy new camera he bought. And people like how you can afford that. He’s like well the Lord wants us to have nice things. We’re following his laws and this is what I do. And he didn’t even feel guilty or any kind of shame in telling us all this is what I do. And people say oh wow that’s cool.

[00:58:40] And basically it’s just in so many areas. Every facet of it is unhealthy. Yeah that’s what I was going to say. I mean it seems honestly like I guess I would ask if you were to look back on that life was there are good times. Were there times where were there benefits to in any way were there. Well it was a habit that you look at it differently. Yeah when you’re in the middle of it you see everything from the lens of what you know. I remember as a child thinking Man I wish that we had a whole bunch of mothers because in my mind I’m picturing you know many copies of my mother who didn’t put together in my mind the fact that each of those mothers would then come with that eventually their own group of kids killed my mother was overwhelmed. You know she is trying to solve all of our clothes from scraps and pieces of fabric the outside gentile family members would send she is trying to figure out how to feed us all on next to nothing. She is trying to figure out what bills to pay to try to keep something from being cut off. I know several times we had our power cut off or our water cut off because we couldn’t afford the bill. She would be so tied up and so stressed out and I would think Man Too bad we don’t have more mothers because then I could just go to another mother to help me.

[01:00:18] And you have this idyllic picture in your mind of what polygamy is and you have all these mothers who love you and who will take care of you. So says one great big happy family and besides how awesome would it be to have like sisters that were your best friend that were your own age kids. I grew up lonely I didn’t have anybody my age I didn’t have friends. And so when I started to see the realities of what most if not all the polygamous homes were like. It was shocking to me. You’ve got always simmering under the surface at least under the surface sometimes it breaks into these big fights but that jealousy that competition between youths between mothers and you’ve got you know the man will pick a wife is his favorite. He treats her better the children of the other wives see that their mother is hurt and they hate the kids of that mother that is favored or the mother that gets it has a job and goes and buys her children all new shoes. But father says there’s no money for any of the other children to have shoes. And that causes rivalries and feelings between the wives. And when some other woman comes along and you felt like had a pretty good relationship with your husband and now he favors her and her kids get everything and your kids have been cast aside I’ve watched so many times as women take out their frustrations that they didn’t dare take out on their sister wife on that woman’s children. You treat them and you get popsicles and you only give to your kids. They’re her kids she got stuff before and it creates this hostile environment is very stressful.

[01:02:07] And you’re thinking about the notes in their bedrooms because they can’t deal with each other and the stress and each other’s children. So then you’ve got these hoards of children who really don’t you know they’ve got three four or five mothers but nobody who’s really engaged with them and helping them figure out and navigate life. You’ve got older siblings required to raise their younger siblings and there gets to be some resentment involved. They want to go do something fun instead they’re raising their sister. Why are there other mothers kids for her. You know a lot of people say oh I loved it. We grew up with this huge family. And so yeah there was that I didn’t grow up in a huge family. My mother ended up having ten children which is a pretty big family. You know we are all year. You know I didn’t have anybody my age. My older sister four years older. My next sister was three years younger. And you know there’s a lot of people will say it’s awesome. You know if I want to go on a trip with my husband if he wants to take me somewhere I don’t have to find a babysitter or worry about anything because I just leave my kids home with their other mothers. They don’t have to have their schedule interrupted. Everything is wonderful. But the reality that I witnessed was Yeah husband takes wife number two. He goes out yet the other wives all are jealous. They feel bad.

[01:03:42] They would love to go on a trip but they’re left on and a lot of times they take their frustration and their anger out on the children of that other wife that’s off having a party. And they’ll treat those children poorly or you know I don’t I won’t say that it can’t work and that there that is impossible. But from everything I’ve ever witnessed read all the people I’ve ever talked to I’ve never seen a case where it truly did work. I can’t see how it could. I assume that you know some situations are better than others and absolute. Maybe some people are just better equipped for better or more laid back or whatever. I don’t know. But the power dynamics there are just I mean there’s so many ways for that to go horribly wrong for everyone. And it’s all coming through this misogynistic patriarchal system that has already put women down about as far as they can go. Yeah. It’s just it’s I don’t know. Have you ever seen the. There’s a show called The Handmaids too. Yes I actually just finished watching that I had to watch it. And he said yes Família. I could imagine I had to move my wife was interested in watching it. She had a wisdom tooth surgery and she was like hey let’s you know this show has been clean let’s try to binge watch this while I’m down you know with my surgery. And I could I had to I could watch one episode and then I needed you know like I can binge this over the course of the Loban I’ve got to take a break because it is it is a heavy thing and I can’t and it hasn’t lived. You know it was you know of course it was so extreme.

[01:05:41] No I’m not saying that it was that extreme but so many of the elements of it. Yes. You know you’re left with you realize you haven’t breathed for a while you realize that you feel those anxiety coming back you feel those icy fear that grips your heart and you’re all of your insides turned into knots and it’s like I’ve been on the other side of that facial expression you know I’ve gone along through life. Well we women interacted with each other. All of us with our fake keep sweet smile pasted on our face that never quite makes it to your eyes. You know you got the smile on your lips but you look into each other’s eyes and there’s that pain and you have that understanding and acknowledgement that we’re all hurting that we’re smiling and this is our choice and they brought up and it was. Yeah I watched it it was really hard. And then there’s an episode I can’t remember ever. I actually just looked it up a few days ago and we watched the part but they were going to put these handmaids on display in front of the dignitaries from these other countries to show them they were happy. And they start calling off the Serena. Joy comes in and tells them to get rid of the damaged ones to send the damaged ones away. And I just because we were damaged you know they have physical damage. The rest of us it was psychological emotional damage. You didn’t smile enough. We can’t let people see you. You go back in the House. Kind of a thing. You know we’re going to put on display the women that can smile.

[01:07:26] No matter what. But then they started calling you know it was really striking to me when it first sunk in that like the main character is of a friend of Fred. She belongs to. You no longer have your own identity. You’re his property. But in the other scene they start calling out these names and they had of Warren of Lyle of John of Tim the woman in charge of these of these handmaid is Aunt Lydia and we were required to call women and we were Ben’s property and Aunt Lydia in the AFL this was a amazing woman who was the midwife who delivered all these babies. But it was just such a you know she wasn’t an evil person but it was like why did they have to call her Aunt Lydia and then you’ve got the you know the whole the connections of stuff it was just it was hard to get through. I cried a lot imagine you exude can’t imagine having lived something like that. And then you know what they say. The truth is stranger than fiction. You know I mean there’s so much at absolute you. This is heartbreaking. So did you even look at the similarities with the women you know the wives they had these strict rules and you were required to be there as part of this ordinance. You know that read the Bible verse amounts to try to impregnate the handmaid and she’s under all these strict requirements everybody is watching she has to follow the rules.

[01:09:09] And the men are sneaking around having a separate relationship not with the hand wives that handmaidens but they’re going to these parties where there’s drinking and drugs and I thought that’s so true on the outside there’s this this fake front of these righteous pure men and they try to make us all understand they’re the real victims. Have you ever tried dealing with the emotions of a bunch of women. I need a break you know to be able to have my prime rib dinner that my family can never have a bite of. And those type of things. It was it was the closest thing I’ve ever seen to any the cult culture and life and consequences being portrayed on film. So then you how did you do things progressed for you. You’ve been indoctrinated in this way and then you know you’re just a child but you know because you came in kind of differently. You’re lonely you don’t have this family with people of your own age. There’s you some separation there as you go through your teen years than you know. Are you anticipating you know like I know I know you talked about looking forward to getting married because then you would have have a love and it would just be for you it would be maybe the love that your parents didn’t give you. Yeah. When you when you’re you know going through your middle a mental age here mid teen years your middle teenage years and starting to approach you know that that I guess marriageable age at least at that time in the calls. You know what’s going through your head. How are you. How are you feeling as you get closer to that are you. Are you excited are you. You know how’s that feel.

[01:11:11] What is that like. Well I have to say I had extremely mixed feelings on it depending on the day or what my where my mind was. My older sister had gotten married and she married Rulon Jeffs son and that gave me a whole different window in to what it was actually be like to get married you know before it’s like this fairytale imagination of what I was going to do what my life be like. And then he was around and I didn’t I felt uncomfortable with how flirty and forward he acted toward me. And I had as at that point I had started noticing that married men were that way. Quite often you’d get the feeling that they were looking you over and sizing you up you know seeing where you might fit into their collection kind of that’s the feeling I would get. And it was uncomfortable. And yeah if a boy dared an unmarried boy dared look your way. There were severe consequences. You know you get sent away you could get corrected. It was like once you got married then your morals could all go out the window and it was OK. And so I would imagine that most girls had the same type of a thing and I know you didn’t very often dare voice it to anyone but you start building this mental blacklist of people you knew you weren’t allowed you. You hope to marry anyone or to set your heart on anyone. But I felt like it was OK.

[01:12:52] As I looked around I was making this mental list of who I hoped I would not be told to marry you know creepy uncle whoever that absolutely freak you out. You’re like how dare you be looking at me in that way. I know you’ve got two wives at home and if you married me I’d just be the next one in the collection while you’re out looking all the other girls right. And there are a lot of cases where sisters. Same person. And I did not want to marry my brother in law. He was like I didn’t want to. And so you have that the anticipation hoping you have on the one hand it could be good you could marry a nice guy. You might not be one of 30 wives so that you actually have an individual meaning to this man. And you know wrecking the family you know coming along as the new wife. And at the same time there was this whole list of things that you saw around you that go wrong. What if you married a guy that didn’t like you. What if you married a guy whose wives hated you and treated you bad. What if you got told to marry the father of a boy that you had a crush on in high school. How is that supposed to work. You know. So it became a lot more complex as I grew up and got older and you start to have a little bit better comprehension of what you’re actually facing and what your possibilities are. When I was younger I didn’t know anybody in the group I’d go to church look around and see all these very nice people and girls and their beautiful dresses.

[01:14:26] And it was just it almost felt like this you know you were part of this big community this big family. And that is the one thing that I miss is that you did feel like there’s always somebody that had your back or the church was always there. Anything really bad happened you have some backup or at least you believed you did. Then I watched things happen where that those things did happen and the church was like huh. You must have sinned go your way and figure it out. But it just the whole thing shifted in my mind. I started to see the world from a different lens. And I no longer believed that getting married was going to be the answer to all my problems. That is automatically God telling some man he had to love me and that he would right. There was a really scary scenarios out there that you didn’t know if you could be part of. And a lot of men you’d never seen in your life and never met you could be told you’re getting married to some guy and Shark Creek or Canada and they track you off. You meet the guy get married and all a sudden you’re sleeping with him and trying to fit into his family. No you you’re absolutely terrifying. I mean I can’t imagine this mostly at that age you know being you’re being pushed in that way. You know your life is clearly not your own. It belong to the church it belongs to the men and women whom you can be dropped off to some other man so you know that’s just there’s no stability.

[01:16:00] You don’t you know you want to believe there’s all these rules set out. And I for me I reached a point where it was just it was all too much when I was a teenager. At one point I got quite depressed. I actually attempted suicide. And when you get to that point in your life there’s no words to describe how disappointed you feel in yourself when you wake up the next morning you realize you can’t kill yourself right. You didn’t even succeed at that. But it did give me a new I thought OK. OK. I prayed so hard all my life. Apparently Heavenly Father protected me and didn’t allow my efforts to be successful so this must mean that he’s giving me another chance. I have to make this work. There’s no easy out for me. And so I double down and I thought Okay the one thing that’s awesome about the gospel is that there’s all these promises and they’re set in stone and we’re told that God does not lie. And he says if this then that. So all I have to do is make sure I the best of my ability to do all that if I’m going to be obedient. I’m going to submit myself to the priesthood I’m going to raise my kids right. I’m going to sacrifice everything. Anything that comes along I’m going to show God I’m going to make up for the mistakes the past I’m going to do this and that’s how I lived. You know you have to try to push the thoughts the doubts out of your mind. No you just I believe in God. Yes people you know.

[01:17:45] And that’s another thing I hear a lot from people who are in different religions. Well God is perfect on the church’s right. People have their weaknesses. So you can’t judge God based on what Brother so-and-so does. Yeah he gets up in front of the church and says he’s telling you what God wants but if he’s molesting his girls in the background that’s not God’s fault. It doesn’t change what he told you was true. I was really a mess. Yeah. Oh is it really messes with your mind. And there’s you can’t trust yourself. You just have to almost mechanically keep plugging along. What are the rules. What have I been told. Yes. I think about that. I just have to keep plowing straight ahead and ignore all the red flags that are jumping up. Those are the devil trying to internist out that doubling down thing is something that a lot of Jehovah’s Witnesses do at different times usually when they’re there dissonance kicks in and they’re starting to see that this isn’t what it was portrayed as. And it’s like we try we always tried to force ourselves to believe whatever it was. And yet you know if only I double down then then that will make everything OK. It’s essentially just escapism it’s escaping into into the activities of the church to try to distract your own mind from the realities. But you know with you you know you double down you know how does that progress then as as you know you eventually aid a little bit to the point where you do meet you know your eventual husband.

[01:19:24] Well when I was I’d say around I think I was better than I was about 12. My father was working at a company that where a lot of other men in the church worked. And so through that he met other people and the guys would have these evenings where they’d go to a park and the guys all get together and play baseball. And he couldn’t we never left the house. But if he went sometimes he would bring us and then your mother could sit and watch the guys play baseball some of the other men Brolsma their families and that gave us an opportunity to get out and see other people. And then we started going to some different gathering’s. There’s a man in the church who likes to put together things he would rent a roller skating rink. And we can all go. And it was just our people and we’d play music that was appropriate you know and course there are always adults and parents there to watch make sure boys and girls weren’t intermingling too closely or anything like that. But these gatherings we all went to a park. You know everybody brought their own picnic lunch or whatever on a weekend. And there is this huge gathering of people in the Salt Lake area and my parents got introduced to the Nicholson family. And it was they both of them mothers and a couple of their older girls taught at Alta Academy and so through getting to know their family they convinced my parents that they really should put us into school. And I think part of their motivation was that they saw that my mother was just totally overwhelmed.

[01:21:09] You know every time she is pregnant she got severe morning sickness the whole time as she is trying to do everything and be everything. And so not only did she would it be great for her to have that one burden removed but give us. I’m sure that they saw all of us extremely backward awkward children. Oh those poor things we need to socialize them somehow. So then we started going to school when I was in seventh grade and we became really good friends with the Nicholsons and so you know by the time from the time I was like twelve and their son David was 14 we interacted a lot our families together. And huge long story but then we both ended up working at the same machine shop together and we liked each other and we had to be really careful if you like someone you have to be sure that you’re willing to do whatever the Lord requires you to do. And my father became aware that we liked each other and it was a huge deal to him and in the end I went and talked to Uncle Rulon and poured my heart out to him about how I felt and why and that I really truly did want to do whatever God required of me and the hard time I’ve had growing up isolated and going to school and never having any friends and that life had been tough. And I wasn’t wanting to do anything wrong but I felt like I just no matter how hard I tried. I was always on the wrong end of things my dad was always upset with me and he was accusing me of every evil you could imagine.

[01:23:03] At one point I remember him telling me that he knew that I was no longer clean and pure he’d do that I was no longer a virgin. He didn’t know how many men I’d been with or how far I’d gone or who I’d been with. But he was just extremely disappointed in me and wanted me totally. I had to confess so that he could help me. I had never even held hands with a boy and it didn’t matter how many times I told him I haven’t done anything he would hang his head and shake his head at me and say things like I don’t understand. On top of all that you’ve done why you would lie about it. And that’s what actually brought me to the point of being suicidal because I felt like I had I couldn’t defend myself. It be one thing if I’d done something wrong. Yeah yeah. You can’t win and I felt like I couldn’t win. And you know I’d spent by that point five years in school having it drilled into my head that our fathers confidence in us was life that the prophet trusted our good fathers and us. And your father needed to have confidence in you. And when he went before the prophet said I have confidence in this son or daughter than the prophet would automatically have confidence in you and you know your life would be on the right track. And I couldn’t get my father to believe me. He was my priesthood head and he thought I was a whore and no matter how many times I told him I hadn’t done anything he wouldn’t believe it.

[01:24:42] And so it it ended up when I went to talk to Uncle rule and I finally I finally it took a long time to convince him to take me and he told me. When I asked him he said no he wouldn’t take me because Uncle Rulon didn’t want people like me in his home and that cut me so deep because I thought you don’t even know what kind of a person I am. I’ve I haven’t done anything wrong I’ve lived my whole life trying to do the right things and be a good priesthood girl. So then when we got there at the appointment he parks the car and said Now before we go in I want you to understand that when we get in there you need. And they mother Marilyn calls you back from my appointment. You need to stay in the living room where they would have you wait until I ask Uncle real and he says I didn’t dare tell him that I was bringing you and I need to ask him if it’s OK that you’re here and all I could think was Are you kidding me. If you truly believe that do you think it’s better that you brought me into his house and then ask forgiveness instead of asking him ahead of time. But it was so hurtful because I thought I’ve done nothing wrong. So at that point because I’d already been through it so many times with him he’d come down in my room and he’d make all these accusations and I’d plead my case and tell them I hadn’t done anything and he’d shake his head at me and that was all I could see in my mind.

[01:26:24] And so I thought this is not just my salvation or not just my life but my salvation on the line. I believed I was going to step in and speak to a man who communed with God and I needed to be able to be open and tell him everything I wanted. This whole burden off my chest. I wanted to know if I was wicked and what I needed to do to fix it or if I was okay. And I at that point couldn’t imagine how I could sit and pour my heart out with my father sitting there shaking his head at me lying got quiet. And so I mustered up all the bravery that I could find. And I said when we go in there I want to talk to him alone. And my father was so angry. He said that’s not right. And Uncle Roland’s not going to like it. And I was I felt like I was just at the end of my rope. I had nothing else to lose. Lesson will you at least just ask. So we went in and he got called back and he went back a few minutes later he walked out and said Uncle Ruland said to send you in. This isn’t right. And I remember thinking uncle ruling’s said How are you judging him and saying were right. You know who is the bad one. So overwhelmed. I felt like here I am 19 years old. I feel like my whole life was going in the toilet and I had to speak up.

[01:27:57] I couldn’t just let him accuse me of these things I had to to be able to have a chance to say my piece and I wanted to know from God if I was truly wicked and if I’d seen some way that I was unaware of. So I went in and I sat across the desk and poured out my heart told him all the sins I could ever think of that I’d ever committed. All the things I’d done wrong all about how David and I had been talking about how sometimes that night when I was overwhelmed I’d climb out my bedroom window and go for walks in my neighborhood. And David didn’t live too far away and one day he came driving by and saw me and we stood out on the street and talked in the middle of the night and how evil that was. I know and I apologized and I repented. And when it all came down to the end he told me that I hadn’t done anything wrong and that he understood how I felt and that in his position he had to ask girls when they came and said they were ready to be married which I had done like three months before this. He was he had asked us Do you have anyone in mind. He says I need I don’t need you to lie. It’s not about saying that the answer needs to always be No. He says sometimes girls are allowed by God to have some idea of where they’re going to go because maybe it makes it easier for them to accept where they’re headed. So I ask that yes. And then you need to tell me if you had anybody in mind or any of these kind of feelings or ideas.

[01:29:33] So then I can take it to God. And if you write wonderful we’re on the path we send you off where you need to go and if you’re wrong then you understand that it’s something you need to be able to get past. If you’re willing to accept Godswill and it was like the weight of the world was taken off my shoulders. God said I was OK. And in that moment it didn’t matter what my father thought or anybody else thought but the result of that was that that was on a Tuesday I believe I got married. David My were married a couple days later uncle Rulon said he took it to the Lord and he felt very good that that was where I belonged. And the problem with that was when I was ready to leave Ruland Jeffs office that day he said to me I don’t want you to tell your father what we talked about in here. He says I’ll take care of it. Don’t tell him this is none of his business which was like holy cow because he’s my priest head. But at the same time when I was like he wasn’t doing me any favors I just wanted to be taken care of. So I was like OK you know I was good with that. I didn’t really want to tell Father that I had told Uncle ruin everything or have him questioned me.

[01:31:06] But I don’t know if Uncle really never said anything I have no idea anything from that point on other than I found out just a few years ago that my father from that time on has told everyone that David and I had to get married because we had had sex and then asked to marry David and I was a virgin on my wedding night and I didn’t even know he was telling people that I was one of my younger sisters told me maybe a year or so ago. She’s like I just wonder what really happened with you and David because father always told us this and it was like someone stabbed me to the heart. Horrible. And I was like why. But that was another one of his favorite things that he would tell us anytime we were disobedient as little girls. He’d tell us that he needed us to be obedient otherwise how could he protect us when the mobs came and went. When the war started if we hadn’t been obedient he wouldn’t be allowed to. He wouldn’t have the power to protect us when men would drag us into the streets and rape us. That was his favorite thing to threaten us with. And as a child that’s what I grew up hearing all the time and then it came back to mind when I was older and had my own children I thought What on earth constant so even though it may have his mind go that way much less use it as a threat. Against us but so that’s how I ended up getting married. And it was not by any means the common experience of people in the Felty us.

[01:32:53] So you know not only that we actually liked each other before we got married but that you knew him you know and the fact that he got to be a first wife and on and on and on so life was actually good. You know when I first got married he did love me. And it was very comforting for me to know that it wasn’t just that the prophet told some poor guy to take me on as his wife. I knew that he would have chosen me by his own free will. And so I had so little self-confidence so little worth in my own eyes that that was it helped me immensely. To not feel you know I didn’t have to doubt that he wished he’d married somebody else or any of that kind of thing. Yeah that’s that’s got to be huge in the I mean for a person who has been devalued their whole life to finally feel like you have some value in the eyes of someone has to be huge. There’s not even a word. And it was it was a pivoting point in my life. But once again it was not. It also was not the fix all of my fears and problems because then once I was married and we and I came to understand the power of having an intimate relationship and how close you can become to someone how much it matters to you that they love you and that you mean something to them. I never even comprehended what it would be like to be married at least not at that level. And to think of him bringing other women or girls into his life and in his bed and knowing that he was having that relationship with anyone else it was just torture. And I just said I just can’t think about.

[01:34:50] I have to not look at it because this is my religion. This is what I signed up for. How can I say I believe it and then fight against it in my heart. And so it’s a good thing that generally men aren’t given a second wife too soon because I’ve got a lot of work to do on myself to be ready to truly be able to accept that. So in a life carried on we were plagues we had started having children. You were a mother. You thought you were. That’s what plagues shirt for polygamists but yell at us. Okay. You go into buying your legs anyway. Basically we’re living pretty normal lives as fundamentalist Mormons in in Gentile Salt Lake we had started having babies and you know they became my life. Men are so tied down you know they start having projects on Saturdays and he started getting involved in doing the sound room for meetings and my children were the one constant. And I also felt like it was a safe place for me to retreat to if I lived for my children and focus my life on them. No one that was my my job in life you know that was the measuring stick by which God would look if I was a good person and worthy to be protected when the distractions came if I was raising up a royal priesthood you know and righteous children. But also I felt like I had to start building some kind of a wall around my heart with the anticipation that time is going on it’s going to happen someday that David’s going to come home with another wife. And it was too painful too to think about.

[01:36:56] And so I started very much kind of isolating myself from it. I tried really hard not to enjoy our relationship too much because that would make her hurt too much. You know there’s kind of two two trains of thought that could apply to that and I had done one for a while. It was like I’m going to get the most out of my life with him as I can before it’s all ripped right and then I start to realize that that was going to hurt too bad. So I had to cut back I had to start guarding my heart. I had to make it where it didn’t matter to me so much whether or not he was around. And I had to have meaning in my life beyond our relationship. And by that point I mean all my children were getting older I was busted you homeschool selling all their clothes canning all the stuff that good women did. So that kind of made it an easy way to shift that direction. Just gonna stay busy and think about it. Exactly. You don’t think. And whatever happens it’s coming your way. You’re grateful for it but you don’t put any hope on seeing it again in the future. So so then you you basically drove into motherhood. So then how many kids did you in the end I ended up with six live births. I had my first three were each 20 months apart. And then I and I had some miscarriages in between.

[01:38:37] I had a really serious miscarriage that I lost 18 weeks and ended up going in and getting a D and C and at that time I was convinced that the doctors messed something up because I went. It took almost six years between my third child and my fourth child. I just didn’t get pregnant. Nothing was working. And that was really hard because that’s your that’s your worth. That’s your purpose. And I you and I had one of my sisters asked me one day what I thought I had done that the Lord wasn’t allowing me to have babies anymore and fulfill my purpose. And it was so hard because it wasn’t that I didn’t want them you know how in the Bible the Lord closed up people’s wounds all the time. I don’t know. As far as I knew I hadn’t done anything you know looking back now I’m pretty sure that most likely had a lot more to do with the stress that was in my life. There’s everything else but it was a really difficult period to get through. And then I had three more. So I have my oldest is a girl and then I have five boys which was kind of funny cause my mother had tan. She had nine girls and one boy and even that the makeup of my group of children was a source of mixed feelings because on the one hand I was going to someday have to give my daughter away to be the possession and belonging to some other man’s family. I no longer would have a connection you know it got to the point where Warren Jeffs was saying once you girls are married you don’t you shouldn’t be talking to your mothers anymore. And I really that was gonna hard you know.

[01:40:35] And so my five boys they would get married they’d end up with how many wives and all these kids they would always be part of my kingdom as long as my husband and I were together. That was our little kingdom growing and so I could hold onto them but at the same time boys were getting kicked out leaving all the time and is as much as I want to convince myself you had to face the reality that I don’t know how many of them will stick with it. How many of them I’m going to have to or I’ll be told to shun because their past is hazed and so it’s one of those things where you enjoy watching your kids grow up but you wish they didn’t. Because as long as there’s little you can protect them and keep them safe and they want to pass the time when there’s five you know who knows what digging up and I watched it happen I watched boys disappear. I heard stories of people who took their 13 14 15 year old boys and drove down to St George or Las Vegas and dropped him off at a gas station. They said they’re no longer there. They do just leave them no longer. I don’t try to contact me. There you go. And I knew I couldn’t do that even if my child decided to leave or got kicked out. There was no way I could. They had they had become my life. They were what I lived for. And so as time went on the rules started getting more strict Rulon Jeffs died and Warren took over entirely and started sending men away.

[01:42:12] You know we always been told that the wicked needed be weeded out from among us. We could Perfecta people but we never imagined basically that her stuff. I always pictured what’s going to happen in the resurrection after you die God sorts us out. I never pictured the church taking a man’s family away and sending him off to repent and that was terrifying to me when they sent someone off to repent. What does that mean. Is that their way is saying we kicked them out and basically drove them to Las Vegas and dropped them off and gas station. Well that’s what they do with young people I mean everything they do with the adult happening with adults. Okay so in April of 2000 five my father in law got sent away and his second wife had already left the church and moved away. His third wife was told to go live back at her father’s house. She took her few children with her. His first wife was my mother in law and we were moved into a bigger house and she was moved in with us and my husband. Her son became her caretaker and her priest had had mutton and the father in law where did he go. Does he just go out of the world. Much of things you know for some of them they had construction jobs and they just had they tell you. Tell him Go later they start time go far away. My father in law moved to Kanab which is like 20 miles maybe south of Colorado City.

[01:44:02] And he had a friend that let him use like a camper trailer and parked in an RV park. And that’s where he lived and got him a job at the dollar store. And my husband had been told to still go and try to be an encouragement to him. He was supposed to have no contact whatsoever with his former wives. Basically my husband David was the one family contact who was allowed to stay in his life and if he needed things that make sure he was taken care of. And he talked to him and his father told them he says I have no idea what I’ve done. They didn’t tell me you know in my mind I pictured they’d say you did this thing go even higher. But they said you have sinned some grievous sin you go repent and they say well what have I done. And they told you know what you’ve done or if you don’t know what you’ve done you go pray about it until the Lord reveals it and then you’re supposed to confess the sin and repent of it. And it brought to mind my father saying I know you’ve done these things when I hadn’t. What do you do you say never. Yes. The right sin. And it came to a point where later I found out what would happen is one person would talk about it happening or report something everything. This went on and I had a hard time with that and they’d mention someone else’s name and Lehrers you’d be like oh well he shouldn’t have done that and you might not have even been aware that you did it or that you hurt somebody feelings or whatever it was anything essentially to get you out.

[01:45:45] Basically yes. And he was a rare case. He was gone for a year and then he was allowed to come back and he was given back his two wives and their children. And shortly after that that Warren was arrested and there were no marriages on stuff. And then sadly he passed away from. Well he had gotten cancer. They had that pretty well taken care of but then he got mersa that gave him pneumonia and he passed away from that I to this day I guarantee you I watched his health deteriorate while he was you know 68 69 years old suddenly having everything he lived for torn from them and living in a cold drafty trailer working in a dollar store trying to figure out what he’d done wrong and the devastation that that causes. And I guarantee you when he came back he was much less likely to ask questions about anything he was told. Oh sure. And you know that was an example to all of us. It could happen to you. Boy you better not think the wrong thought got gotta tell me out of your ass you know. So a lot of people went a long ways away. There are people that you know they went wherever we didn’t know where they went. And you’d be gone long and all of a sudden someone would disappear and by you know by the 2005 and beyond that there were special places that were being set up and they were redeeming Zion and so sometimes you’d see someone else and disappear. Weber doesn’t work at the company anymore. And we all.

[01:47:26] Well for me I chose to think well I hope they went to a better place. I hope they got called Zion because you didn’t want to think that maybe they got kicked out and sent away. And it was extremely stressful and toxic environment when a man would be sent away know like from my father in law. He was told to go and repent and try to come back. Other men were told that their sins were so bad that they were now Sons of Perdition they had no hope. They couldn’t come back. But interestingly enough though they were told these people are not your family anymore you have no rights you should never touch them. The family was told to throw away any pictures or memories they had of their father. But the man was still informed that since they were used to be his family he should go out and work hard as he could and send as much money as he could back then take care of his well that some good. Then why did he do that. But they already eddying read that about you are you know. And if people watch septet great and we found out during the time that my mother in law lived with us there was a few times when David would get an envelope from Lyle Jeffs who was the bishop at the time with some money in it that had come from his father that he had sent money to give to his wives.

[01:48:55] And it wasn’t you know for a lot of people I’d never find this out but once he was then back in the fold and they could talk about it you know he was working hard living on next to nothing so he could send as much as he could not just to take care of his family but to prove that he still believed you know show them that he was still devoted and he wanted back. And you know they start comparing numbers and find out that he was sending back a lot of money and very little of it was making it to his family. The church was keeping most of it and some of it never made it to them at all. So the whole situation but if you’re on the inside if you’re deep in there and you’re dug in you don’t know those things. And if anybody tries to tell you that while you’ve been listening to the devil or the evil apostates the evil. And you know Warren Jeffs trained us very carefully to believe and understand that apostates are liars from the beginning and they can not tell the truth. They might tell you just like the devil they might tell you 99 truths to slip in that one sneaky lie so you can’t talk to them at all because they might really good. So again you know and it’s it’s horrible. The you get in this trap in your mind. It goes round round and round because the other thing they taught us was God and the prophet always and only do right. And when they started sending men away they gave us this big long sermon about not being guilty of the sin of sympathy against authority.

[01:50:39] If your father or some man that you held in high regard and you thought he was awesome guy all of a sudden get sent away and kicked out. Don’t you dare think. But he was a nice guy. Is there a mistake because you’re questioning God. You have to accept it. Never express any sympathy for what the Lord has done. And you know watch your own self that you’re not making mistakes that is going to get you tossed out next. And it reached a point where the only thing we felt like we could safely talk about was like the weather. Well it’s been really cold this week. Because everybody start you know people being told things in secret especially once there is the separation of the United Order and the non United Order. You couldn’t say anything even about the gospel because you might be saying something that person hadn’t heard about and everything had to come through proper authority and you could be severely punished sent away if you revealed even if it’s the truth. It was what God told you if you revealed that someone else instead of it going through the proper channels. So you just couldn’t talk about it. There’s something to really think about like going back to the Handmaid’s Tale. You know you see the handmaids go off and all they discuss is like you say you know pretty much the weather or something like that because everything else is too dangerous to talk about. And you’re not sure if that other person is joining like you or if you say the wrong thing if they’re going to go running and report you you’re just right. You have to walk that fine line. So apparently there was a there was some sort of a split that happened.

[01:52:26] Yes so in about 2010 it was announced that like Brigham Young stay we were going to have this Restoril process. They call it confirmations. Every person must write a confession letter and turn it in. And at first I said only our prophet read these and then it was like only R and the bishop probably needs while he was in prison by then. You know it was it just kind of started it started to fall apart to where it was like you had no idea who all was going to read this. But basically you’re supposed to write this long black list of every bad thing you’ve ever done in your life. Didn’t matter if you’d repented of it. They wanted you know you could say you felt like you repented of whatever but you had to tell it all. And I struggled with it because I felt like I’d never done anything terribly wrong and up to the point when I got married I already had god tell me all of that was OK. So do I right. You better come out with something. Well exactly and I better write it because I can’t pretend like I’m perfect. Before then we all know we’re not perfect. And I remember I struggled with it so hard because I had spent the last couple of years praying so fervently and pleading with heavenly father to give me that testimony that I was everything I was okay in his eyes. And I thought you know in my heart and in my soul I know that me and got are good and I’ve prayed about it.

[01:54:09] I’ve I’ve made mistakes but I feel I’ve I have confessed them to God I’ve repented of them. And the other thing we were taught that you know the Lord knows it’s not just Buhweju it’s the intent of your heart. You might do all the right things but you’re doing it because you want glory and that undoes all the good you did. And so in my mind I was thinking well I’ve worked really hard. Me and gotter did. And it’s not just that I’ve already confessed and worked through this. But he knows my heart he knows why I did those things. He knows how bad I was hurting and you want me just vomited out on a paper for who knows what men to read and know the intricate struggles I’ve been in my life. But you don’t want to know the good I’ve done for losing the burden that it is. And so I felt like OK. I’m confident that I am in the right place. I’m just going to trust in God and I’m going to write out my letter. And once you wrote out your letter if you know if you can festive anything terrible and you didn’t need repent didn’t get kicked out for it then they’d let you know when they come and do a reconfirmation you got rebaptized they reconfirmed all your blessings on your head and all of this you were you know the slate at that point was wiped clean.

[01:55:33] That was in preparation because the distractions were coming we needed to be pure enough to be lifted up and protected and get our profit out of prison and all that stuff but it really came down to was they now had a blacklist they could use to kick people out and hold over their heads and you never detected that that’s what it was but that’s what it was. And the next step was that they said you know the United Order is something they’ve been teaching it’s something Brigham Young taught her that Joe Smith taught Brigham Young actually tried to implement it in different communities. And now’s the time God says we have to do it and. And that means everything you own every penny that comes into your possession gets turned into the church and then the store house will give you back what you need. And we didn’t have much by then but we went through that and you had to fill out questionnaires you had to answer questions and then you had to go through and be judged interviewed and judged by men that were called to do that. And one of them was my father. And then Lyle Jeffs as the bishop. And then JohnM. Barlow when I went and if you had not been judged worthy by midnight on December 11th of 2000 eleven you were no longer a member of the church. So whether whether it was that you didn’t make it through the process or that you were found unworthy. That was it. And I was never the member smooth judging other judges. But by that point he’s seen I’ve raised these good children. He lived in my home in Vegas for a couple of years and he saw that we were good saints and that my children were these sweet obedient you know I he whatever feelings he may have had against me before he.

[01:57:29] I’m glad he lived with me because now he sees that we’re good people and so I actually didn’t feel worried because of that point I also didn’t know that he’d been telling everyone that David and I had to get married. So it was. Ignorance is bliss to some degree. And so that was a whole new process she had to go through. Our family got called on the last day on December 3 first. We went through it was I’ll never forget the experience. It felt so dark going in the office and answering the questions but still I felt 100 percent confident. I had prayed and I got that burning testimony that God said I was good and my husband had done the same thing. We had spent months agonizing over and praying and talking and it was a scary time but we both felt like we were good and then we were judged unworthy and my one son was judged unworthy. My two oldest children were worthy and my nine year old was worthy. My other two boys were or eight yet. And if you are eight that means you weren’t at the age of accountability you weren’t baptized as members and so you weren’t judged you were you know any sense you commit before then are on Jesus so or your parents. So as of midnight everything changed. My husband and I were no longer married. I understood when they started talking about I like that if we’re not members that means us our our marriage that does David want to have priesthood which means he can’t be our priest. It had that connection is gone. All of those things are baptisms.

[01:59:16] Everything is wiped out overnight becomes null and void and I was also I was I took comfort in feeling like I knew that we were going to be OK. And then we weren’t. And three of my children were. And by that point I had very little faith and trust in many of the men who were leaders and they wanted me to send my 18 year old daughter my 16 year old disabled son and my nine year old to meetings where I knew they would be told they weren’t allowed to tell me anything that happened or what was said. And it terrified me especially for my daughter. There were men and I you know looking back on it now I’m like It’s so crazy. I looked around I was like I wouldn’t trust that man along with my daughter. And yet he was found worthy and so what was I believing in did I believe in God or not. How did he let that slip through. Right. I touched my daughter and I told her that after she went they went that night and got rebaptized and another ordnances got ushered into the United Order and everything. And the next day before she went her meeting I talked to her and I told her I says Now I’m guessing that your meetings and whatever last night they probably told you that part of the requirements is to keep sacred things secret. And she is like yeah how did you know. I’m like I know how this works. So this and us your parents not being worthy. I’m sure that you’ve been told You can’t tell us anything that happens. She’s like yeah exactly.

[02:01:03] Nessa’s I need you to understand something. SS I need you whenever you go to a meeting or anything to be so prayerful and so alert and paying attention I says. And if you do that and there’s anything that gets said If any man tells you that you’re supposed to do something whatever it is if you feel uncomfortable with that then see sacred things should feel whole you should get that testimony that yes this is what God wants. If you don’t feel that that’s not sacred you can walk out. If you have to get up and walk out of a building and come home and you can tell me about that because you only have sacred things secret and she struggled with she like no I’m not supposed tell you I’m like I promise you this is how it works. Even though I knew that they would disagree with that but I was desperate and in my life that was really how God should work. And yet these men would disagree with it because they’ve got their ulterior motives. But I was telling her God’s truth. You know this is how it was and within a few weeks well start tearing our family apart. They all of a sudden had assignments that I couldn’t know about. They had meetings to go to the I couldn’t know what was said. They had reading assignments. And all this stuff and it got to a point where it was frustrating as a mother to be to go to my daughter who already struggled with not necessarily wanting to do everything she was told. You know how kids are.

[02:02:40] And I’d say anyone can help me do the dishes. Oh I can’t mother because Uncle Lyle gave us this assignment I have to do that. And all of a sudden you’re living in a house where you no longer have jurisdiction over the children that are living there reach. That’s insane. It was insane it at the stress levels went through the roof. David will still working in Los Vegas. They had moved our family back to short Creek but he still worked in Las Vegas which at that point was nice because after being married for 20 years it’s really hard to share space in a house without going for the automatic hug each other. When you see each other how we can’t handshake three seconds more than you would be it was adultry and we were desperately trying to work this out so I made it easier that he wasn’t in the same city with me all week. It just it was so hard and things started falling apart. And I my children would go to their meetings and come home and I could tell something was wrong but they wouldn’t tell me. And I knew them too well. You know I was like This is supposed to be higher laws and greater light. Why is it bothering my children. What are they saying to my kids. And one day it had been even worse and I finally cornered my daughter Amanda and I said what is going on.

[02:04:06] And she finally after making me promise I wouldn’t tell anyone told me that Lyle Jeffs had announced in their meeting the message that had been sent through Warren from God that God would no longer allow the unworthy to live among the worthy and risk them contaminating the pure. He had to make that more of a separation to protect the purity of the worthy and what that meant they were going to take my children from me. And I already had concerns about my father that he would try and one of David’s sisters had been creepily. Anyway things were going on that left me with no confidence that my children were safe. And they announced the same thing the next week in the meeting that I went to. And once I heard that heart all these struggles all the stuff that I had been working so hard you know as like you said you have to try to make yourself believe in you. You get the next thing thrown at you and instead of looking at it at face value and going that is crap. How do I rearrange things in my brain to make this piece fit. And you pray for a testimony of what they just told you because it doesn’t feel good. It doesn’t seem right. It doesn’t even fit with what you’ve been told your whole life but somehow for your own salvation you have to make that peace make sense. You have to believe that you have to accept it. And I’ve been doing that for all of this time. But that was it that crossed a line. It was a line I wasn’t willing to cross. And in my mind I was like Nobody takes my kids from me nobody. You can’t tell me that God doesn’t think I’m worthy. You mean who raised these kids to be good enough to be worthy.

[02:06:06] It was her right to continue. And I’ve seen families that were those guys were were found worthy and unlike those are some of the most dishonest rotten people I know. But I you my kids my end up living with them because they’re worthy by some strange measure. So you’re not alone. You were stoo in the religion though deemed unworthy. You were just like a third class something. Yes. And they started separated meetings. So they Worthy’s still went to the meeting. The big meeting hall at the same two o’clock time slot in the day their meetings sometimes go six or eight hours. Oh it was insane. The money would go to the Restoril meetings that were at 11:00 o’clock on Sunday mornings at a school that was just right across the street from where we were living and they were gone just start back over at the beginning. Teach us the articles of faith and we read the letter. And obviously we were just unclear on the basic concepts of our religion or they were going to you know you had to go to those meetings to show you were still trying and you had to write confession letters every week and all this stuff. So even though we weren’t members of the church we still had our meetings. They still wanted your tithing and your donation of course. Oh that was that you still really believe and there were hundreds and hundreds. You know I thought I’m not worthy. It’s going to be so humiliating to go walking over to meeting me and this handful of other people while everybody’s looking out the window.

[02:07:43] Oh sure enough I knew Brinda Nixon wasn’t going to make it. You know and he said there were. I went to a meeting I thought did anybody make it. Because most people I know were here at the Restoril meeting. So but by the time the next week. So I had gone to my eleven o’clock meeting that Sunday my children went to their two o’clock meeting. That went really long and that night my daughter told me what had been said. So I knew that they were going to announce it a week from then which made me at least think they’re not going to start Teran people apart for that week. I have to figure out what I’m going to do. I didn’t know for sure how my husband felt. I mean obviously he was shocked but I didn’t know who he was. You can’t really bring that up. So what do you think. Should we do it. You know because he could be totally on board even though he thought it was horrible and then he’s like you know go to the bishop I don’t know what to do my wife is questioning it and boom I’d be out there. So you had to be very careful he went to work for the week and through that week I decided that’s it. I we have to get out of here. Living there in town was utter hell as it was that the child abuse that I witnessed the animal torture the cruelty and the whole town was just falling apart.

[02:09:08] Now that so many men had been sent out and people were reassigned the women were so overwhelmed that nobody was really watching the children it was just it was a madhouse. And my children had been witnesses of some pretty awful stuff they’d been bullied or treated bad and I was like I have to get out. I cannot live here and I’m not going to stay and let someone take my children from me. But then I had to figure out so how do I do that. And of course I wanted for David and I and all of our children to leave together but that was a really touchy thing you had to delicately work your way through until you knew you’re on the same page. And you know we were and we spent hours every night during the week when he was gone we hardly got any sleep we’d be on the phone and I’d hide in a corner while we were living in a duplex. I had to make sure the people next door couldn’t hear what I was saying. But we had to talk about it. We decided we had to leave. And you know we were living in you EPRI and house on his property. That’s what they called the organization that held all the church’s property was united. My husband was working for a church owned and run business and we had seen we understood soon as people were aware that we were in opposition they would find a way to get rid of him at his job. They will try to kick us out of our house. And so we had to have things lined up so that we could survive.

[02:10:45] We kept our tax return that year and used it to put a deposit on a house to rent. My husband he had never had to fill out a resumé or go to a job interview because you just get told you work over here. You worked for this guy and do this job and so on top of being absolutely torn apart that we were leaving everything we knew and even though we felt like it was the right thing to do. That didn’t mean it didn’t hurt. It didn’t mean we didn’t have questions. Are we sure were doing the right thing. And so it took us several weeks to find a house that would work for him to find a job and get things lined up. And at one point in our meeting they talked about how they’re doing the second round now of judging and how great this was my father was telling us this. He is running the meeting how awesome this was because there are many here in this meeting who’ve been through that second judging and who’ve been found worthy we just haven’t had the time yet to let you know. Basically there is hope. Everybody come back. Let’s go back through this next judging process keep repenting keep you know they keep holding that carried out you know in front of you. Yeah. My husband says one day after he says I don’t know do we’ve got it. He says Do you think we need to stay and go through the next round of judging and see maybe we’ll get in and then we’ll at least be with our kids. But by that point everything together. I was just done.

[02:12:25] I told him that in my opinion what we had already done was plenty to prove to Heavenly Father that we believed and that we wanted to do the right thing and that I wasn’t going to subject myself to that again but that if he really felt like he needed to then you know of course go ahead. But that I really wished and hoped that we could live together. I didn’t know how to make it in the Gentile world on my own. And he told me that he just needed to know that he was doing the right thing. And I was like Absolutely you do. But that in my mind I thought he’s he’s got that doubt. And if he decides to go and if he if they convince him to stay I’m going to have to do this on my own and I can’t tell him my thought process. I can’t tell him that I’m looking at our bank account and our credit card balance and trying to figure out how far I could get on a tank of gas and where I would head if I have to do this alone. I couldn’t sell him so that I couldn’t give him any indication that I would be willing to do that because if he made that choice I was going to need to wait till he headed to work in Las Vegas and then we had a big 15 passenger van I would load my kids and whatever I could in that and we would just go and it was terrifying at that point. I knew I had a lot of relatives that were Gentile’s.

[02:13:54] I had no way to contact them I didn’t know where anybody lived and I was trying to think what direction would I even go and you know once I get a tank of gas away if they realized he could cut off all access to the cards how far can I go and what would I do once I get there. Who do I talk to. I had no idea. I knew I had to leave. I had to protect my children from what I saw was happening and I ended up because my daughter had told me and then my son was unworthy. I needed his help. My oldest son has three palsy and he’s disabled and he operated on a much younger level and the one thing you could not trust him to do was keep his mouth shut. He couldn’t run doing them as my son and I would. We weren’t allowed to use the Internet at that point. David Abraham an air card that we could use for internet. We had to keep that secret from our kids and everybody and we’re looking at houses for rent and my son and I would go drive around we’d say Oh we’re gonna go to Walmart we went to Wal-Mart a lot in those days and you want to make sure nobody was still following you you’d watch for the people that had you know although the gods what they had positioned in the parking lot in a hurricane and whatever and do it you could to try to look as innocent as possible.

[02:15:23] You know maybe go ahead and stop at Walmart and then come out and go to the gas station and then try to in a roundabout way drive past the house and hopefully you know watch that nobody’s following you so they wouldn’t know what you’re doing. And so my daughter and my one son knew what we were going to do the rest of them did not. And there is so much stress and I had to try to I’d had a an old trailer where they’d put moving boxes because they had crews and when you know you’d be there one day and the crew would show up at the door and say Hi Uncle Carlisle says you’re moving somewhere else and here’s these van loads of girls and box you know the boys show up and drop off boxes and tape and bubble wrap. The girls that show up go through impact your entire house in no time flat and disappear. The boys true would come back haul your stuff wherever you were going next and the girls would come back in and clean and then they’d bring the next family and move it home. So they had a trailer of boxes that were like the community boxes and to try and not be too suspicious I’d go by and get a box or two because you do that you know if you had some you need to store tape to the store house and I was slowly packing everything I didn’t need and stacking it and where people couldn’t see it through the open windows trying to get ready.

[02:16:46] I was having to go look at houses I was trying to still interact in the community at a level that looked normal without letting anybody know what I was doing and my 9 year old was so clingy and I need to go on Warren and I were going to go my son to go look at houses and he’d hang on me and cry and I’m like I’ll promise I’ll be right back you gotta stay here. And it took me a couple of weeks before it finally hit me. But at 9 years old he had sat in that meeting and heard that he was going to be taken from us because we weren’t worthy. And at nine years old he had never said a word about it but he knew what was happening and he was desperately trying to get as much time and hugs from me as he could before they took him away. And I just hadn’t even comprehended what he was going through or that he understood it at that level. And I thought if he could keep that secret from me and you know then it starts coming back you start realizing how hurt he’s acted how clean he is that he’s suffering and you didn’t even recognize it. I was so tied up in my own worries. And I thought if he could keep that from me and hurt that bad and not tell me I can trust him to keep this secret. And I took him up in my room and talked to him and I said Morgan I know that in church they told you that they’re going to take you away and give you two or three parents and the tears started welling up in his eyes. And I said I want you to know that we’re going to move that’s not and I says we are finding a house. We’re packing up. We are we are going to move we aren’t going to stay here anymore. Tom you can’t tell anybody this.

[02:18:57] And he started crying and he says but mother I don’t want to end the fear that went through me. I never imagined you know he’d kept us silent. I never really thought that I was going to have to convince my 9 year old it was okay to stay with me. And I just I felt this desperation. I didn’t know what to do. And finally over. OK. I don’t know what I’ve got. I’ve got to work through this with him otherwise I can’t let him out of the house because he’s going to tell on us. And so I said I said Morgan what do you not want to do. And I came down to say he thought I was saying that we were packing up and leaving without them that somebody was going to take them away and we were ditched in town and leaving him in that. I just I started crying and I pulled him over and wrapped him up in my arms. I told him I would never let that happen. I will never let anyone take you from me. And he just we both sat there and cried our eyes out. But at that point I was like This is it. We have to get out of this hell hole. I don’t go jury. This was unreal. And if my child is suffering like that how many other children are going through that there have already been taken from their mothers and plot over here. And what that does to them psychologically and be told your parents aren’t worthy of you.

[02:20:32] So many of the children turned it around like what did I do wrong that I can’t be. Especially the ones that were unworthy and their mothers were oh you know to always blame themselves any way they do. You know so it was amazing to watch the transformation in him once he understood that he went back almost like with a snap of your fingers to being the happy bubbly little boy that I’d always known and that helped that contrast that instant contrast helped me realize how far he had sunk over the months that slow you know he was just sinking under the weight of why he was being told the church that God expected and I was like there was no going back for me I was like I don’t care what anybody says or does. I am taking my kids and we are out of here. And then the new fear came before we got out that I was going to get that phone call or have the crew show up at the door. You know that. Well the bishop called David and he’s sent away and we’re here because they do this often. We’re here to move you guys all out that way if he came back he couldn’t talk to me. They take your cell phone. They would move you and he’d come back to get his stuff they’d leave his stuff in the house. You can bet get his stuff and he didn’t know where you are so he couldn’t try to convince you to leave with him when he got kicked out. And I thought we have to get out. I just have to get out before they do that to us.

[02:22:05] We have to get out before that call comes because it could come any day. It was happening to people you never thought it would happen to you. And and then one day I was just desperate and I’m packing like crazy trying to figure it out. And the thought came to me that not everybody was this lucky. But for me David and I were on the same page. No one on the planet had a legal right to our children but us and as much as I believe that Warren Jeffs spoke for God the cops wouldn’t care. I programmed the Washington County Utah Sheriff’s office phone number into my phone and the Mojave County sheriff’s office phone number into my phone so that if it came to that I could call them because you know you can’t call the town cops. They work for the church and they would do everything they could to keep you there. And then it was like it was like the clouds parted and this light shone. I was like the Church only has as much power as I give them. They can’t force me to leave my husband. They can’t force my husband to leave me and go out into the world. We have a legal marriage. We legally are the parents and caretakers and everything of our own children. And I could look that man in the face and say no and there’s nothing he could do because before I was like What if they tried to force me. It was just like I had never thought that in my life that I could just say no. And the reason me you and I was like Oh my word.

[02:23:57] And all of a sudden I mean that was a huge lessening of the immediate concern that I had because I had those numbers at the ready. I told my children you had a track phone that was at home. I told them never answer the door. I don’t care if it’s on the line. I don’t care who it is. You don’t answer the door you stay in the house you keep locked and you’re even that they were also in this feeling of relief we were on our way out. We know they weren’t going to have to do these terrible things anymore. And yet what a horrible life to be living that they feel terrified of the people that are supposed to be their religious leaders that that someone might come and try to steal you away from your parents. And it wasn’t a a it was a valid concern and a real threat. That the hardest part was when you when you know you’re going to go and you’re rushing around secretly making preparations. And to try to hide it all. You’re acting like nothing’s happening. And so I would go to my father’s house. And I would talk to my mother like nothing had changed and I wanted so bad to grab hold of her and hold her in my arms and just as I understood how Morgan felt. I wanted to absorb every bit of her that I could because I knew that as soon as I walked away from that I would probably never see her or talk to her again in her lifetime or mine. But I couldn’t I couldn’t let on that anything was up.

[02:25:40] I had to pretend like I was going to see her tomorrow and the next day and the day after that for the rest of forever. And I couldn’t hug her I couldn’t tell her. It would just be it would raise red flags if I was to sit down out of the blue and tell her how much I loved her and how much I appreciated to watch. And for me you know I wanted to I wanted to just and moral. And I had to just smile and pretend like Yeah thanks for the Exar whatever you know knowing that I was going to be gone. And I and knowing as much as I knew I was doing the right thing. How bad that was going to hurt her. She would see it that I was lost while those apostates. She’d already had four of her children leave before that. And I knew how much it hurt her. My father always made sure she understood that it was her fault that her children hadn’t stayed faithful and therefore they had nothing to do with it. Oh no no no. Jeffs taught to show me a rebellious child and I’ll show you a rebellious mother. It was always the women’s fault. Men had no responsibility men weren’t the spiritual head of the whole thing. Well they were but it’s just like the prophet and the other you know Arnold you’re down in the hierarchy. They tell you what God what they can teach you but it’s your own fault if you don’t follow. Men men are there to teach women are there. That’s that.

[02:27:14] I mean that was our only purpose in life was to make sure that our children grew up right so if they didn’t certainly wasn’t the father’s fault he was way too busy to actually raise his 30 kids. That’s the mother’s job. But it was so painful that raking his day. Sometimes I just have to try not to think about her because there’s days when I look back and it’s hard to even comprehend that that was my life. It almost seems like a bad dream but I have no other memory of the childhood that was my life. I just have to take a deep breath OK. I can’t think about any more. It hurts all the pain comes back. But then the realization comes again. My mother is still in that absolute living hell. That stuff I broke away from. She’s still in it and it only got worse. I have four of my sisters. Her children you know my immediate sisters out there. My father’s second wife has 10 children and she got kicked out my father ended up kicked out later his second wife got kicked out and they left the second wife. Ten children with my mother to raise so they don’t have either of their biological parents. And my mother is tied down raising the children of the woman that came in and stole her husband and made her life miserable. But my mother is the absolute definition of a saint because she truly loved all of my father’s children as her own. She has raised them taking care of them. And I think that’s part I always hope that she’ll break free.

[02:29:02] But I know that that’s part of what’s holding her there. There’s no way she would abandon those children. Right. You know it’s kind of kind of missing the word Synchronicity is kind of synchronous with you know you weren’t going to abandon your children it’s the same thing you also had. Why blame her. Yeah yeah. You can’t you know they’re her flesh and blood. But she was she played the role of mother in their life more than anyone else. And how could she abandon them now. You know but that’s what makes it so frustrating. You know you get people that are like to see these people chose to do that. Look we talked to this woman. She said it’s what she wants. I’m like yeah I was on the other side of that face for years. I put on a smile. I would have told the entire world that this was my choice and that I was happy and to some degree. I wasn’t lying. I didn’t know what happiness felt like. Yeah you don’t you don’t have any experience with anything else so. Exactly. But just do just like you people in North Korea. I’m sure that they think they’re happy. They have no idea what life outside of North Korea is like Yeah they have no idea what they’re missing what they don’t know what they know the lens they’re looking through. No I’m doing good and I’m happy. But you know it was a couple I think is about a year and I’ve talked to a lot of people that’s pretty much that.

[02:30:34] It takes about a year before you start feel like you’re getting your feet under you after you leave. It took me a year before I dared wear pants. I just kept were in dresses or skirts because I needed to know that I was not going against God. And when I left I thought Warren Jeffs was still a good guy but here he was tucked away in prison. And of course nobody in their letters writes Lyle is treating your people really bad and life is miserable. You’re supposed to be encouraging the so I hadn’t ever said anything about how I felt. But on our way out my husband I I our two kids that were able wrote long letter saying this is what’s happening. Lyle is doing this to your people. It’s hell here. But it wasn’t until after I’d been out for a few months that I finally got hold of information the records and stuff and found out that Lyle was only carrying on what Warren had been doing for years. And he on top of everything else I can’t even describe the feeling of betrayal that that was. To realize that the man that I thought was God basically that I had trusted with everything was nothing more than a filthy perverted vile cruel man who had lied to me my whole life for his own benefit. And then to to you know it took time. It absolutely destroyed my world from under me. And it took time for me to work through that and comprehend what I was really facing and what my life had been and what he had done and what other men were around me all my life.

[02:32:14] And then you realize that here you are on the outside now you know the truth and you understand a whole new level. Why they require you to shun people who leave. My mother would not talk to me my sisters. You know I’ve I counted up one day. I started to realize I couldn’t remember the names of my nieces and nephews. I didn’t even try with like sister wives and their kids. But my own sisters my blood sisters. I couldn’t remember the names of their children. I was starting to forget. I sat down. I can’t keep. I can’t do this. I have to remember their names. Otherwise they become they become faceless even in my own memory. I can’t remember them and they’re in their living this hellish life. And so I list them out and I’ve got close to 50 direct nieces and Duret nephews each so almost a hundred people out there. Not to mention my sisters and my husband’s sisters and my mother and my friends and the entire community we looked at each other as a family. And you realize that all those people that you love and care about are still mental about and you can’t help them and you can’t tell them and you try and you write a blog and you make a documentary video and make comments all over the Facebook can you try to help people understand that when they say oh leave these poor good faithful devoted religious people alone that it’s a lie. Those women aren’t happy and they don’t know. You know it took after I’d been out for about a year. One day I went at our house.

[02:34:01] The mail came that put it in a box that was like down at the entrance to the neighborhood. You moved to Apple Valley which is six miles north of Short Creek so out my window I could watch my family drive past on the highway and there I was. I can talk to him. I’d go to the same stores they did and when they’d see me they run and hide. And it hurt. But I also understood I didn’t blame them because that was me. A few months ago you’ve seen a posse and they were poison to you. You had to get away. I went walking down to get the mail and it was the first time I had dared step outside my house in a short sleeved shirt. I didn’t wear my long underwear Imar and it had quite wide neck and then I was I was still wearing a skirt but it was more of a straight skirt. I went about my knees and split up the back. I mean this was like very evil clothing in my past. You stepped out and I was walking down to the male and the sun was out and that was there is kind of a cool fresh breeze and the sun and the and the breeze touched my skin skin. I had never seen the sun before. And I realized that I was. We were free. We had done it. My children were OK. Nobody had come and attacked us. We’d made it for a year we were kind of had our feet under us. David’s job was going okay.

[02:35:33] My children were adjusting and it was almost like the sun on my skin I don’t know how to even describe it but I thought Oh my word. This is what happy feels like. And it was like oh my skin tingled and I got goose bumps. And there was this feeling in my heart that just wellness like my word. This is happiness. And I’ve never experienced this before all those times I thought I was happy. You were totally over showered overshadowed by the fear and the dark and the anticipation of what the next thing was going to be. For the first time I felt pure happiness and I just started crying happy tears and thought everybody should have the chance to feel this. Everybody should experience this. Everybody should be able to make choices and you know it was a scary thing. When we first left we’re like David settle where do we want to go. And it absolutely stunned me because all my life you either live in short Creek Salt Lake or Canada you know immigrating to Canada Canada was not an easy thing that wasn’t really a choice unless you got married to someone there. But that was it. That’s where the saints lived. Now Salt Lake had been made off limits so the thought that you could just we could actually choose and decide and move anywhere we wanted was just like holy cow you go. And of course we ended up six miles outside of Short Creek because that’s all we could afford it. We couldn’t haul our stuff any further than that. That was our first big Liebe but you start to understand that not there’s huge freedom in making your own choices.

[02:37:32] But the flip side of that was that there’s a huge responsibility. Yeah I could choose to do this. And that’s my choice. That’s awesome. What if it doesn’t work. What if we made a mistake and we find out the church was true and now we’ve condemned our children to hell. What if all of this and before it was like Oh the church said you’re going to live here you’re going to work there you’re going to do these things and you obeyed. You didn’t have any choice but you obeyed. If it all worked out you knew that the Lord bless you for your obedience. If it didn’t work out you did what was right. The Lord must’ve thought you needed a test or a trial. Now it was on you. If you moved somewhere and things went to hell in a handbasket it was your fault. You made the wrong decision and it was like holy cow. What are we. How did you decide. We haven’t been taught how to reason things out or or you know it is like it took time before you could venture beyond what was still familiar and make choices that didn’t prematch fit within the confines of what you were used to. But once Rex passed that the world is the most incredible place and there are thousands and thousands of the most incredible and kind and compassionate and amazing and loving people and their Gentiles and their apostates and you start to realize that the people that you trusted the most were the most harmful to you and the least loving least kind.

[02:39:18] They looked at you as a tool and as a piece of property but you don’t have to be happy forever. Isn’t it amazing how all the things that they proclaims about people of the world were actually just projections of who they were it is and you know it as you start to recognize that you’re like oh sure enough here it is the devil is twisting things you know the world is called the righteous good things bad and bad things good and and I’m in that I’ve given myself to the devil and then all of a sudden you know this is actually the truth. Oh my word you I lied to my entire life. And those guys are still at it. And I got my little voice over here going guised you can do it you can’t get out and then you got all the big powerful leaders and religious leaders everywhere. And the women who are still trapped by their arms mind that get up and say Oh those are those evil wicked and bitter ex-wives. How can you trust them to tell the truth about what we’re living. I’m happy here. And you know the part they’re not saying yeah I don’t have a clue or 90 cents. My children are because they’ve taken them from me. My husband got kicked out. I get moved around but look at me. See this little smile on my lips. I’m happy. And this is my choice and you guys should leave us alone. And I’m like I’ve been on the other side of that. Their you will be burned and one they’ve never seen the other side. Amish they too because it’s awesome. I know.

[02:40:56] I know. Funny though they will say well you know how can you tell me how I feel on this side. But yet they’ve only had one experience out and they somehow devalue your experience as a person who has lived both sides know that you’re under the control the devil and you’re just speaking right now. But it just shows the power that men can have and the depths of depravity they can go to if they choose to use that power for evil. And you know I it’s hard sometimes get people to comprehend and understand why I’m against polygamy entirely especially religious polygamy and you get these people who are like yeah they that was what they wanted. I mean for some of these young girls that’s like the highest honor to get to marry that man. You know there was a higher up in the authority or whatnot. So I was speaking to a press conference up at the Capitol building about a year ago. I went to a press conference. They were going to debate House Bill 99 which would keep polygamy illegal instead of out anyway. I was there to say it needs to stay illegal to be on that side of it. And so I had a room full of you know reporters and whatnot. There wasn’t a lot of people but they one me get up and have my turn to speak. And so this is you know a lot of times you get that from people but not for some of these girls that was an honor or that’s what they wanted. And who are you to say that they can’t marry who they want.

[02:42:52] What if they did want to marry that man. And you know where but they say that they have a choice and they chose. And I said Look what I’d like all of you to do is take a minute and if you can picture a twelve year old girl or 13 14 15 you know young younger that you know maybe it’s your daughter maybe it’s your sister your niece your granddaughter whatever. Or just imagine the age group of sixth or seventh grader in your school. If one day you got the news from someone that hey did you hear Sue’s little Susie decided she wanted to be the fifth wife of Brother whoever who’s 60 you know 45. Isn’t that great. What is your gut reaction. Would you honestly be able to say well I guess that’s what Susie wanted. I’m sure there was no coercion in. I’m sure Susie didn’t want to finish school or get a driver’s license or maybe marry somebody her own age and it was amazing to watch the expression on the faces of the people in the room change as they actually pictured that because I think we all have somebody we can think of who I guess a lot of people say things like polygamous women are no different than us. They they aren’t trapped. They want to have choices. They whatever. And this is what they choose. Who do you think you are to go against that. And I like to say you’re right. And too often we look at you know you get so many people that say things like well I would never live it.

[02:44:46] I would never let my daughter live it. But if those guys want to arm who am I to stand in the way that’s their beliefs. So why wouldn’t you live it. Why don’t you let your daughter live it. The graph also includes can they see the grass. They never let you again. So they they have no idea what undue influence does to a person were. Those girls don’t want anything. They’re just doing what is. They’re just following a script there. There’s no one in them. Well there is. Well the reality is they’ve they’ve been told to want anything is evil. You have no desires or thoughts or feelings of your own. You do what you’re told to prescription. You. And so that you know as you know for all a lot of people a lot of women have been through the experience of having been cheated on or where you felt like you were cheated on you know for people that grew up in the Gentile world and dated maybe you were dating someone or there someone that you really liked and you found out they were Mesner Outhred or whatever was some other girl and that pain you feel like you were betrayed or. Many women have found out their husband was cheating on them. Plaintiveness women are no different. They have those same responses. Those are natural human reactions to that feeling of betrayal. But there is a benefit to being a polygamist and that is that you don’t have to you know how much time do you spend worrying and thinking Is my husband cheating on me as my boyfriend Shiomi.

[02:46:31] You don’t have to worry. You don’t even have to wonder because you invite them in to your living room and you can hear them in the bedroom down the hall. There’s no wonderment anymore. You get to be have a front row seat to what feels like your husband cheating on you. But at least you know where he is at and. They don’t feel any different. They do feel betrayed. And as you know that was very sarcastically put. It’s not a benefit. I’ve heard from many women as they were trying to work through it and accept it as I talk about how much it hurts to lay in bed alone at night and hear your husband having sex with someone else across the hall. Or to be wishing for some attention and some time and watch him only have time for the new wife or feel like you wish you could have a break from home and go on a trip. But it’s not your turn yet or he can’t afford to go to Hawaii five times and so whoever was lucky to go with him the one time the rest of you’re out of luck. It’s damaging and it’s extremely demoralizing. As a woman to not feel like there’s any kind of reciprocation or hope that you are required to give your everything all of your heart all of your devotion to your husband and he as he chooses will give you a little peace back but only if you’re good and only if you don’t piss him off and only if you’re not bitchy today because if you do any of those things then he will hold it over your head.

[02:48:19] And I’ve talked to women before that we’re just desperate for their husbands love and they’ve been told well if you know they’re like Well you always take marriage everywhere and you always want to sleep with her and I will well if you want me to treat you more like Mary maybe you should act more like Mary and you’re like can’t I be me and have you love me. And then if you go and go OK I’m going to act like Mary and he’s like that was a really low blow you shouldn’t just copy everything she does and don’t think is enough. There’s no way to win this yeah. You know and this is the reality of it. I’m not making this up. I in my mind I can travel back to so many conversations I’ve had with reasonable you can see how that happens. It’s not that you’re like well that makes sense that way. And you have to realize that growing up in polygamy though it does desensitize you to a point that you never allowed yourself to think about what your life could be like outside of that or for a lot of these girls you know they will brag about I’m the sixth generation of polygamists and my family line which is what that translates into is that in every area of their life from the time they were born they were surrounded by their accounts their older sisters their mothers their grandmothers all lived in this. They witnessed the truth of it that their mothers were sad that all those emotions were going on.

[02:49:54] They were the subject of the bitter reaction of the sister wife when they wanted something and they the sister wife took it out on me because my mom pissed her off you know. And they think that’s normal. They don’t know anything else. That’s just the way it is. They don’t know that there’s happiness beyond that. They don’t know that there’s anything beyond that. And I actually was talking with some people once because I thought I was shocked that there are people there are girls who will break free from a polygamist cult or at least not be in the arranged marriage strictness that will still when they you feel like they had a choice. They still went for polygamy and I’m like why. Why would any woman allow her husband to take on another wife much less that girl choose you know. And so I had thought about it a lot because I thought maybe there are people that that it that are happy in it and I don’t want to stop people if that’s truly what they’re happy with other then you still can’t control the harm it has for all the children that come into it. But I finally realized that I think I’ve got it figured out. When you grow up as part of the herd there is no bond really between you and your mother. There’s no bond real bond between you and your father. The children bond in their little groups so you have this young girl that grew up watching her mother’s all of you married the same man whatever. And her entire bond really was with her group of sisters they all grew up together they shared a room they went to school together. Everything they did they did as this grew.

[02:51:45] They’ve never in their lives. Been a witness to what a normal romantic intimate relationship can be between a man and a wife. That’s all hidden away to begin with. You know that’s not something you do publicly in front of the whole family. But also there’s a lot to be said you know you can’t be too affectionate to wife number two or the other five are going to really be on your case right. Not to mention that there’s just not time for you to develop a deep bond with one wife when you’re supposed to be taking care of multiple wives. So what happens is these girls grow up. They get married. They don’t know what to do in a house with two people. They miss that group of sisters that they bonded with. They’re going to have a hard time bonding with their husband because you don’t ever make a bond with men. They’re supposed to be off being good priest good guys and working and it’s the women and children that form the family unit and you pick and choose who you bond with there they don’t know how they don’t know how to have a healthy marriage relationship between two people. So they’re looking for that sister to come in and then like you know it’s fine you go off and do your thing husband because we’re going to have tea parties while you’re gone because that’s what our mothers did to deal with the fact that you were here and they don’t. It’s kind of like for me having that sudden realization that I was happy I they don’t know what they’re missing. They don’t know what it could be.

[02:53:27] I sat in a in a presentation at Sunstone a couple of years back where one of Winston Whitemark wives talked and he has had twenty seven wives. He has almost 150 children and she said how one day he came and was hanging out with her and said something along the lines of he just can’t imagine what his life would be like if he was stuck with just one of those women because they each you know played a part. They each provided something different that he wanted whatever. And she’s you know this was possibly kind of a funny story. She says she told him right back. She couldn’t imagine what she’d do if she was stuck with him all the time instead of you know one night out of a one night every 13 times a year or whatever it multiplies out to and I and people kind of laughed and I thought that is so sad. You’re in a you’ve been in this marriage for 20 years you have all these children together. And you can’t imagine being stuck with the guy more than a little bit you get. That’s not a relationship you’re missing out on the best of what marriage is supposed to be. The relationship seems to be I think what you driving is the relationship is with the sister wives. Yeah that’s the relationship there is no no real marriage. They’re just imitating this whole sister wife relationship that they have grown up with their entire lives. And that’s what it is. They don’t know how to have a relationship. They know how what a relationship should be with a man.

[02:55:14] And you know I’ve also heard plenty of stories that actually read the book that the Sister Wives family the Kody Brown family put out a couple months go read it and I was like oh here it is in black and white. They’re the ones that chose to put this book out here. But if you read it none of them are happy. You know they talked about how the best times they had together as Sister Wives and I read it many times I’ve heard it from many women. They get along just fine as long as he’s not in the picture. You know he goes on vacation or he’s gone on a job for a week the women all can band together and so together and cook and enjoy each other. But then he comes along and there’s no equality and then they’re against each other and they feel left out because he’s paying attention to her and I want to be the one he pays attention to. And that was something that I came to realize for myself in looking at the you know the future of living in polygamy was that I saw men had favorites. That was all there was to and they’d kick their few favorite children they had like this little nuclear family they created out of the many many people around them and it killed me to think of what was going to happen to me like what I watched happened to my mother.

[02:56:36] If when my husband got another wife and she became his favorite Am I got put out to pasture so to speak and I was just there and my good thing I did for him that he was so grateful that he had me for was that I did all the dishes and all the laundry and the yard work and took care of the kids and and did the cooking and the cleaning and that freed him up to spend time with his other wife or whatever and I thought it would kill me to watch him set me aside and someone else be his favorite. But the other side of it was I didn’t want him. I didn’t want to be the favorite either. I didn’t want to see some other soul go through life without having what she wanted. And I couldn’t see a way for all of us to have what we truly wanted and needed. I think you know there’s a reason why we use phrases like finding your soulmate or we’ll call our husband or wife our better half. We didn’t say Well she’s my she’s my better 30th you know you’re required to give 100 percent to him. He gives you a piece of the pie. And then there’s supposed to be divided among all the children and all of the. There is no man that has enough time or energy to truly nurture and raise that size with family even if you were independently wealthy and didn’t have to work. No. I sat through that Sunstone speech and I pulled out you know I was have my notebook and pen and I sat down did some quick math. So with 27 wives I think it worked out that you would get an if you were our rotation equal all things fair 13 times in a year I’d be here at night to sleep with your husband 13 times.

[02:58:33] Or whatever the number was it wasn’t very many and then I thought OK. He’s got 47 kids. I think I rounded it down a hundred and forty five hundred forty five kids. If he’d devoted a solid ten minutes to each one of those children so that they knew that hit they were heard and he connected with them. No potty breaks no meals no nothing end to end. Ten minutes of time for each of his children. It was like Oh were we’re like twenty five hours straight. And you know he can’t do that. He’s addressing them in groups. In fact with him it was interesting. I’m really not trying to pick on him but he’s a good example of some of these things. And that is that he is having so many children that he started naming them by the year they were born and all the babies born and let’s say that polio would’ve been like 90 for all these babies born in whatever year all get a name that starts be all in. So you had all these B names and then the next year it’s all the names or whatever name they choose. And it is like that’s it takes away your humanity you become part of a piece of that instead of your own person on your own two feet. You do take in this whole thing sounds like I mean you know there’s a lot of people marooned. But it’s pure in the good. Yeah it’s neglectful because you can’t be a parent to that many kids you can’t be a husband to that many wives. You nobody is getting what they want.

[03:00:25] I assume are are the men. I assume they’re unhappy. Well to see that’s the thing. There are I mean a lot of men will tell you why they have nothing to complain about. I’m the one they all come to. You know I need money for this. I need money for that. I want your attention. I want your love and I’m supposed to try to make everybody happy and it’s impossible and my life sucks. You women have it easy. You’re just worrying about yourself and your kids I have everybody to work worry about. And I there is absolutely merit to that. But I would have more sympathy for that if there are men that do. If he was honestly putting an effort into making sure everything was fair and equal and even that doesn’t work because different people have different needs at different times. So if you want to just cut and dry here’s the wall calendar we’re going go on this rotation you know for me. There was times in my life when I was going through a miscarriage or I was whatever was going on and I just felt like I needed my husband to see me and hear me and I wanted to to feel like he loved me and I was the only wife. So you’re going through the. Well let’s see your turn comes in another five days. Go find your sister what’s for comfort right. You know what I mean. But if. But then you also get the needy people who the husbands like. Well I’m trying to make sure everybody is OK.

[03:01:57] And this wife has super emotional so I’m going spend the next three days with her and everybody else is like well yes she’s emotional. But what about me that was supposed to be mine. That was you know there’s just no way to without somebody like her. Yeah. I mean men like to have actual relationships with women too so like they. There’s no way you can have any real relationship with any of the wives. I mean maybe he can have a. I mean he can have a favorite but even then with that many people he’s not going to be able to actually have you know intimate relations is more than just having sex with someone he can’t really have an intimate relationship with anybody. Yeah. And that’s true. And you know it’sa. So I read Carolyn Jessup’s book and she came up with. There’s a lot of good points she made in there too. And I watched an interview that she did. But she is talking about how her husband Meryl Jessep had his favorite wife and he also had certain of his children that for whatever reason he clicked with and that’s how we are as humans. You know people date a bunch of people and I’m like no that wasn’t a good match. That wasn’t you need to find somebody. The problem is that that happens in polygamy and everybody else by the luck of the draw you’re out. You didn’t click. You weren’t the one he connected with and it’s not your fault. We just don’t know. But you’re still stuck in your head and body you get a divorce. You can’t find somebody that’s a better fit.

[03:03:40] That’s that’s your lot. And we were also told that we should rejoice instead of having jealousy when our husband was with a sister wife. We were supposed to rejoice that they were being blessed and be so happy. And if your husband likes a different wife more than you wants to spend more time with her that’s not your business. You should be happy that he’s doing whatever he needs to make himself happy as long as he’s happy. Your concerned what you want is wicked. If it contradicts that and you out you don’t matter his happiness matters. So I think that the reality is if you could get men to be honest they do they connect with a certain wife and could be the first wife it might be the tenth wife whatever it is they find someone that they have that connection with and they it’s the same with a handful of children. I really think that we all can only handle so many people close to us. And they create you know they favor that that few kids they favor that one wife. And it seems out when I mean it’s like in Caroline’s book she talks about how Barbara was Meryl’s favorite wife. She always traveled with him and even though she had the lion’s share of his time she would about lose it probably because she’d she’d lose it when he was going to sleep with another one of his wives because she wanted to have a baby. You know it wasn’t that he loved her or that he wanted to spend time with her. That was his function in her life was to sire children.

[03:05:15] And he would go do that duty and then go back and that’s so hurtful for ever. I mean who wasn’t there. What happens to the women who are unable to bear children. No one making it does happen. It absolutely does happen. For one thing even if people aren’t outwardly doing it you know that society looks at you as oh I wonder what she did that law that the law won’t let her have children. But you know a lot of these big families end up with someone like that and you pray either you get a job since you don’t have children so as an adult. I mean this sounds really crass but it’s the reality of it. You don’t have a job. I mean you don’t have children. It’s going to be really hard for you to get any kind of welfare. So you’re an excellent candidate to get a job because then you can bring in money to help the family. You know if this other woman does then that’s really going to cut down on what food stamps she can get because now she’s employed instead of a single mother to be born. Yeah. You mean to be productive one way or the other if you can’t raise children then bring in money because also the things that matter. I look at my mother she I don’t know any other way to say other than she became the live in slave. My father no longer slept with her. It wasn’t about having sex and I remember thinking that too. Because to me is like great. So I’m beyond childbearing years.

[03:06:53] You don’t and you no longer have that duty took to procreate with me. I’m still your wife. You know do I mean nothing else. Many times it wasn’t about you you didn’t have to get to that you weren’t having sex you want that. That like you said the intimate relationship is far more. I mean it includes that. But it’s so much more than that. I want to have a chance to lay in the bed next to my husband and tell each other about our day. I feel that closeness and mother didn’t even get that. Well you’re beyond childbearing years. Never share your bed again. You just go sleep with these other women. And she was mean by the time I left she was teaching all of their children school and some of her grandchildren. A couple of my sisters sent her kids over there to get taught. She was making most if not all the meals doing the cleanup. She would round the kids up and clean the yard she’d catch up the laundry. And you know she became this robotic person she had to find her purpose in serving the family. And she had to in my opinion she has walled off her heart to not feel anymore. She’s walled off her mind to not think anymore. She’s just following directions and she will accept whatever good feelings. I can’t think of a word I want but you know that’s what she gets. That’s her life and she’s looking forward to the next life when she’ll get her reward. You can be happy then she’ll be happy. This is supposed to suck. Yeah.

[03:08:45] It’s a time of testing and trials and. And you just can’t complain about it. But this is what it’s supposed to be. If it was if it was easy you must be floating down downriver instead of fighting up the stream and so your dad is out though. Yes he got sent away. I don’t know how long ago. And I I haven’t talked to him for a long time I haven’t really wanted to. My mother as far as I can tell is still living in the Southern Utah area and still has her sister wives kids. So it’s pretty much as you David and your kids though are. Are you all out. Yes. We all left together and Nardy went back through anything once much back at this point. My five boys still live with us. My daughter started dating. We moved to Salt Lake about a year and a half after we left Fairfield. Yes. She started dating and she’s now engaged she’s going to get married in June. Congratulations. It’s very exciting yes. And she stayed in a Salt Lake with him. And in August of this year the rest of us moved to Washington state. David got a job transfer and we felt like it would be good just kind of a whole new environment. But since start over you know I have a whole new outlook on life because we grew up in Salt Lake and you know the worst year of my life were spent in short Creek and it’s been amazing to be here.

[03:10:33] So but you know it’s one of those things was like we’re doing good and you’ll have. I can’t believe we’ve made it this far and it’s almost two years and then you watch a movie and you go wow look at those people and a great big family get together in a union for Christmas or more like you know we moved here. David wanted to for him and I to go stay overnight out at the ocean that’s like two hour drive from here now is amazing. And I thought oh this is so great. I mean I love this. And then I start thinking but I’m leaving all my kids home. And I don’t know anybody. I don’t have a phone number. I can give them of who to call if they get in trouble. You know I can’t ask my sisters or my mom or my neighbors or even my daughter now check up on and make sure they’re doing OK. I mean they’re grown. I mean my youngest 10. I have my 23 year old that’s disabled a 21 year old still lives here with me. He also has his own life. There are 15 12 and 10. So it’s not like they’re little kids that are helpless. But you never know what could happen. And you start to realize how incredibly alone you are in the world because your entire society is gone and you’re doing OK as a family but you don’t have those outside connections I don’t have somebody up the street or across town that I can count on and say hey if my kids need something can you help them out. And that’s the thing I miss the most is you did have that do you.

[03:12:22] You lost your community you lost you tribe have you. Have you had any success. Like I mean you say you just moved I think in August so it hasn’t been that long. Have you I don’t know how you develop any kind of strategy for trying to develop friends I mean because it is difficult. The letter you get in life to start over like that it is harsh. You could struggle with it you know because we grew up in such a different world. How do you start eating everybody else’s dating people I went to high school with. Right. You don’t know anybody but I made some really good friends when I lived in Salt Lake. There were people that I worked with that are still there will always be very near and dear to my heart and good friends but you know they’re still Salt Lake. Work is a great college. And yeah I met some really good people I’ve become close friends of some of my professors. And that’s really awesome. Once again they’re all still back in Salt Lake. I just need to my husband has made acquaintances and some friends and stuff through his job. And my son is at that point now too. When we got up here in August I enrolled my three youngest in public school for the first time in their lives. And that was a hard one for me because you grew up here. I mean it wasn’t like I believed the church anymore but it’s still not easy to put your kids out there. You are amazed at how guilty I felt.

[03:14:01] Even though it didn’t make sense in my mind I felt guilty that I was handing over that part of their lives to someone else instead of me doing it. That was possibly my job. But I’m ashamed to say I was supposed to me by a job and I didn’t do very good damage damaged both mood and that’s what matters right. I did but it was you know when when my kids were younger the oldest ones I did really good with. And then they told us I was homeschooling them and then they told us to put them in the church school and it was a disaster. My kids picked up ideas and action. You know attitudes and stuff they’d never dealt with before. And then they shut other schools down we were supposed to go back to homeschooling but we had no money. We were living in Las Vegas. We couldn’t even afford to get a printer and the paper to print the curriculum out and we were stuck in the house 24/7. And my whole life I felt like I was doing laundry sewing cooking and all that stuff and just trying to keep them from going stir crazy. They didn’t want to do school. I didn’t wanted to school. And at that point I consoled myself with the thought that the distractions are turning any day now and math and science all that stuff. Who knows if our kids even need to learn. And the Lord could put that in their brain. They could have an instant knowledge. We have stories. You know God just gave people knowledge. That’s the easy part. God can fix that.

[03:15:36] My focus needs to be on raising them to be good faithful obedient sweet passionate. And I would focus on that. The rest we could fill in later. And then we moved then we left the church and just trying to keep our heads above water. I can think about how we didn’t do school but I was trying to help them adjust to a life of just us. You know we used to have a community and now it was us run was it and then we moved Salt Lake and I had to get in and I got a job outside of the home for the first time in 20 years. And I didn’t have the time and I didn’t feel like I could put them in public school. They were already bullied by the mainstream LDS kids there they’re. We were going to hell because we didn’t go to church. We were struggling with so much already. I couldn’t bring myself to do that. And so that was the next step. And I found the I was like I have I kept thinking well maybe what we’ll do is we’ll move up there and I’ll take a year and work with them all really hard and try and get them a little more up to grade level. So it’s not so hard. And then I’ll put them in school. Who are you kidding. You’re you’re you’re not going to do it right it’s not. They need someone besides me. I’ve been the person their entire life. Doing everything teach them everything. I felt like a be good for them to have that come from an outside source.

[03:17:05] And it would take some pressure off and give me more freedom to just be their mom and help us all work through this. I’d be at home making sure they’re okay I can communicate with the schools and we’re going to figure this out. And it was incredibly hard. My youngest didn’t he knew his letters but he didn’t know how to read yet. And it broke my heart. One day when he came to me he was looking for a video or something and wants me to read to him what this says and he said will you use your magical powers of reading. And I thought they really are magical powers and I have failed you by not teaching you should be able to read by now and though in my mind I could read I could lay out the whole thing of why we got where we are and that I had done the best I could. That didn’t change the fact that my child can’t read and I don’t have I’d failed him. You know my son that in a freshman in high school this year never even made all the way officially through second grade work and I dropped him in the 9th grade in high school. And it was overwhelming to me how I have failed these kids. This is cruel of me to do. And here I have not taught them I haven’t prepared them for the real world and all the excuses I know you don’t have to tell me.

[03:18:32] But I still fail them and I’ve up but I can’t I can’t fail him another year as hard as this is I have to let be this be the point where I say obviously I’m not succeeding here. It’s okay to let someone else help them go. And it was so hard. And I went and I met with a high school ended up horribly embarrassed as I end up in tears. I was so determined I wasn’t gonna cry. I did it anyway. Talking to the enrollment people and I’m like I am so sorry. I am asking you to take on more than you should ever have to take on. He’s 15 and he is so far behind and I don’t know what you’ll do. But in a time I it meant the world to me. If they’d be willing to take that on and if they could help them and I was so sorry I hadn’t done it and then I replayed that I’ve got one in high school one in middle school and one in elementary. I emailed all the teachers and said wrote a big old letter. So this is where we came from and I’m sorry that I haven’t done better. I’m sorry they are not up to speed. I feel like they’re bright. They want to learn and I know that’s important but just so that you’ve got it in the back of your mind if they’re backward if they’re awkward if they don’t know what they’re doing they really don’t. And they’ve never interacted with people outside of our family really their own age that never been in this setting. So if you could just keep that in mind.

[03:20:22] And I met with all of the teachers later a few months into the year they had like a parent teacher thing and with each one of them I told myself I am so sorry. And none of them felt like it was my fault. You know they have all been incredible people. You just gave them the best gift you could you gave them kids that really need to be taught. I mean they’re teachers. That’s what they do. That’s what they live for. And that’s what they told me. And like I say it’s one of those things where I can convince my mind you but are you just so much more stubborn. Shall I know this guilt. But I told them I says you know I so appreciate your patience with them and that you’re working with them. And I says you know if you ever get frustrated with them because they whatever is like please don’t take them. It’s my fault. You know touch me and I’ll do anything. And they were all just like what is wrong with this woman. We all feel that way at all. There you go. You think you just have to point out that what you’re what you’re saying right now and these are these feelings that are coming out of you are exactly how you were raised. It was all women’s fault. It was all the woman’s responsibility and it was all the women’s fault if not everything went perfect. So I mean of course you’re still going to feel that way even though you can intellectualize it. You know your emotions were built upon a system and formed in your formative years that you know you’re not going to be able to just shake based on some intellectual understanding Yeah basically.

[03:22:11] And it’s like I can make sense of it. But it didn’t change how I felt. And I just felt I had to apologize and it wasn’t just like it wasn’t just that I was trying to convince these people I was trying to convince myself. And I felt like I had failed. I’m looking at my kids and like I failed you and I failed you. And I am so sorry I did the best I could with what I had. And it wasn’t enough but I’m going to go to bat for you now. Don’t you worry I’m going to talk to your teachers. And you know we had a rumors anyway that my son’s high school that there were some kids going to come back with guns on Tuesday and the school emailed me that was all taken care of. And I’m like That’s great. And that’s wonderful. And that’s all lovely and I still kept all my kids home even though I knew that the very day was probably not the most dangerous day. CORSAN wait for things to die down if anyone is going to do anything but I couldn’t do it. And I called the schools and I’m like I’m sorry my child isn’t at school. And I kept him home because I’m freaked out. Sure I know you know I’m sure I was actually my son told me that in whatever class you know he wasn’t there on Tuesday but that he found out that only six people were. Obviously I wasn’t alone. That’s right. And you know you may have failed your kids.

[03:23:43] You know as you say and you couldn’t provide that education for them. But I hope that you can at least I hope that you can look at yourself and give yourself credit. And I know that’s hard to do. Probably coming from where you did because of my wife and I have been through a lot of the same things coming from where we came from. But give yourself credit for getting your kids out of a cult. I mean you maybe you didn’t teach them algebra but you gave them the most awesome gift in getting them out of that situation that you could have done. I mean the strength that it takes to question everything you’ve ever believed in and to take the steps to leave something that is so powerful. I mean the indoctrination of that call so toxic and so strong and to be able to to take that stands and to get yourself and your kids out an answer to create a new life when you don’t know how the world works. It’s terrifying. And you had kids we didn’t have kids. It’s terrifying. And you know I hope you can feel good about that even though not everything has worked out. You know maybe as as you would hope you know. Well I I do. Like I say I know I mean I’m not laboring under feelings of shame. I’ve been able to come to the point where I can accept that I really did do the best that I could.

[03:25:33] And yeah maybe I could have shot up for MAFF but but the other thing that has helped a lot is that the people here are so incredibly amazing and kind and wonderful and then I’ve been totally and completely blown away and I am more proud of my kids than I can even put into words. But I mean my son my youngest. He can read and he’ll read stuff to me and it’s amazing and he loves it and he’s getting quickly caught up. You know they just went ahead and put him in the right grade and they got people that are coming and helping him. And you know I owe those people huge debt of gratitude. My middle schooler I went to a thing a couple weeks ago because he’s on the honor roll. He had a six point three point six seven grade point average and in seventh grade and then he he’s come home with a couple of awards for citizenship because he’s doing all the right things as a person not just scholastically my 15 year old who just got dropped into ninth grade with less than a second grade no formal second grade education is doing amazing. He loves school and he has on his own. And this is the thing like I was like at his age I wouldn’t have been this brave or bold. He has gone and talked to all his teachers and he worked so hard. I kept telling you know you’re doing amazing. You know don’t beat yourself up if you’re not getting if you’re getting C’s. That’s incredible considering where you came from. But that wasn’t good enough for him.

[03:27:16] And he has gone and talked to all his teachers he went and stayed after did extra credit work redid some assignments and worked hard so that by the end of his first grade period I think I don’t know if it’s a thing it’s the semester they are do it different. I don’t know. He has all A’s and B’s and it’s just I’m like okay I didn’t mess you up you’re still okay and you’re going to be you know if they even if they were getting D I’d be like well this is what more can I expect. But they haven’t been able to do that. I mean it was like you don’t know eighth grade. That’s huge. You know it was huge. And I told David I like course on the other hand I’m start to think. Do they teach anybody in school. Because I thought we were going to be the teachers have made have been incredible. And I’ve been in contact communication with them. But the thing that matters. I mean the grades are awesome but the thing that matters the most is that I’m watching my kids become real people want to know that sounds weird but it doesn’t. You know we went through we went through it a degree of that when we first left you know the first time I went to the thrift store and I brought Homer a old VHS player and some 50 Cent Disney cartoons and I sat and watched their faces as they watched that stuff for the first time in their lives. And it was healing to me. They were happy. They’d laugh. They loved so you know they’d pick a favorite movie and we watched a hundred times and that was fine.

[03:29:00] And then as they started choosing what kind of music they liked not because I told them this is good music or this is what you should do. They listened to all kinds of stuff like you know I like this one right. And to discover that they had things they liked and they were allowed to like and they could choose who they were and what they wanted and the best part is so far they’ve all chosen to be amazing incredible good people and that’s what matters. And they’re happy when they’re made. And it’s like I’m like they have they have an opportunity that I could only dream of. Yes specially those three youngest they’re going to grow up. They already have but now they’re going to grow up in a much more normal quote unquote world. They don’t live in fear. You know you can give them everything that you’d ever heard as like I’m sorry. I just I love it. If you know tell me all about what you did in school today because I didn’t get to do that. I walked through the high school when I was getting my son signed up and the administrator lady there was so so sweet and she was like OK I was like you know this is the first time I’ve come inside. I mean I had gone to some college classes but this first time I’ve been in a public just like a regular old public school setting. Like well let’s take you for a tour and she walked me through the entire building showed me all of what they had available where he would be going what kind of classes. And it set me at ease. What are they. OK. He’s going to be OK.

[03:30:38] It’s all going to be OK. And at the same time I was like Oh my word to have the opportunity to do this stuff when I was a kid. And I was so thrilled to see them do it and make their choices you know and talk about what they want to be when they grow up. And the fact that they can do that they can choose it’s not well you just need to do whatever and whatever the prophet tells you that’s what you’re going to be. And if he decides to change his mind later you’ll do that too. They actually they have a life and it’s like I don’t going to live vicariously through you and someday when I know you’re all settled and there are some things I want to go back and do but it’s just incredible to watch them have a life on the ground like you. You must feel the. I think it’s beautiful because I’m just I’m watching you watch your children and you’re getting to take this immense joy and have gratitude for even the smallest thing that a lot of people you have. Well normal lives take for granted. You know you get to rejoice in all these little details. And I think that’s you know me you obviously missed out on a lot. I’m not saying this makes up for anything but yeah it’s an opportunity to have this beauty that most other people will never get to experience. There’s always a yin and yang to things. Yeah for sure.

[03:32:13] And you know now that we’ve gone through the really exciting parts I look back I learned a lot and it made me who I am what I go through again probably not and I’m not going to put myself or my kids in a position to be subjected to that kind of thing. But you know you asked me earlier was there good parts you couldn’t make good out of. But as far as if anybody was to ask me if I had any power in the world I would have to say no the good didn’t outweigh the bad. I made it okay. There are way too many that don’t know anyway despite the ban. Exactly. I didn’t become this because of what I went through. I came Ivan this in spite of it and a lot of people aren’t able to make that switch. They’re not able to make those connections. They never. Some people never get out. Oh you and others get out. You know I’ve seen so many young people that get out because they didn’t want to live it. They they wanted to watch movies they wanted to date girls and they get out but only physically them. They still believe and they honestly think they are apostates. They think they’re going to hell and that you can’t have real joy that way either. Yeah there’s at least there they’re out there making choices. But there’s always that cloud hanging over them that they think they’re wicked for doing it. That’s the saddest thing I’ve heard from people who have heard this podcast or did thisJ.W. like it was my story. And I heard from people who have been out of Jehovah’s Witnesses for decades who have never never looked at the mental side of it.

[03:34:11] They just wanted to have sex or whatever the case was they they didn’t want to live it behaviorally but mentally they were still in there that there’s a term that in the community we would call them p’o physically out mentally in. Yeah there are a lot of people who stay mentally in even years after leaving and it’s it’s just the saddest thing because they feel they still feel just like you said like their apostates. They feel shame they feel feel bad even though their they’re out. And I think that’s maybe one of the worst things to me. Well let me speak either way you’re not living to the full potential you could be. You’re not enjoying life. You’re not. You’re you’re the prisoner of someone else’s idea of what you should be. And even if you choose to do something you enjoy there’s guilt associated anger like. Well you know there is a price to pay for that. I it was really fun to go to that party and where I went to look gay and I wore pants but I don’t pay for that. It was fun but I’m going to pay for that. So let me ask you then. So you are out. You’re physically out mentally out cash. You’re Pomo. So you’ve got this you’ve got this new life your kids are starting to to. Dare I say flourish you know for you know being able to pull themselves up like this in this new scenario. So so you know you and David and the kids what are your what are your dreams what are you all.

[03:35:59] What are you individually or what do you want for your family what do you hope what are you hoping for your new life. Oh there’s so many things you know. Absolutely no one top of the list is for all my kids to be happy whatever that looks like. You know as far as temporal things I I’m hoping that we’ll be able to. Right now we’re renting and we’re looking toward buying. We didn’t know the area we didn’t dare just buy a house and be stuck in something. But we’re hoping to find a nice house preferably with like an acre or something where I can feel like we can actually put down roots. I spent so much of my life living in houses that I didn’t feel like were mine and you could be uprooted at any time I want to. I mean literally put down roots. I love to grow things and there’s been so many plants that I bought because I love that plant. I kept it in the pot because when we moved I was taken out with me and then they die and it would have been better if I’d put it in the ground at least let it out alive. You know I imagine my home being you know I’d love to have a guest room or to have my home be a place where it’s peaceful and tranquil and where people can come and visit and where my kids will always want to come back. And visit even as they go out and make their own lives in the world. And I recently I’ve been doing a lot of research on stuff.

[03:37:49] I’ve got so much going on but I just I feel this desperate push to do what I can to try to help other people. You know I have this incredible life. I’m happier than I’ve ever been in my life. But it’s hard to feel completely happy when you know the people you love and care about are trapped in hell. And so I’m trying to do research and put together for one thing like psychologic. There’s a lot of psychology about that wasn’t necessarily the studies weren’t done in space specifically to polygamy but they apply. This situation is why it makes it hard. Over here in polygamy I’m trying to pull together a bunch of that information to try to help people understand why they’re still struggling. You know they might be out physically and not mentally. They might be out physically and mentally but they’ve got all that baggage and all that noise in their head telling them that it was that they were wicked. It’s not that you were wicked. This is the way our brains work. This is what being in that situation did to you and if you can acknowledge that you can work through it and at least comprehend that it’s not the devil telling you you did wrong. You went through a hard experience. It really is. And then there are a lot of resources I’ve found just ways to try to help yourself work through it. You know whether it’s writing down how you feel and some of that stuff. My hope is to put together some in some semblance of order something that I can give to people or work with people and help them work make it through that path.

[03:39:32] You know I’m six years out. It took me a long time to reach out work to get here if I could help other people get through that transition quicker and get on to losing their lives. I would love that. And then there’s different news interviews and stories. There’s some interviews that were done by the Canadian authorities when they were deciding whether or not to legalize polygamy. And there’s some valuable testimony and stuff in there but it’s like all these long videos and I would like to put together a short a series of short documentaries where I address one issue at a time and hear all these people what they said about this issue and then tie it in with why that psychologically affects you and how it was applied and whatnot. Because I think you get it’s easier to get a lot of people’s attention if you can watch a video than reading off a page. And I don’t know about anybody else but I get on YouTube and you might start with a five minute video and before you know it you’ve watched all of them it’s been days and you learned something you know you know would you. I’m sure you don’t it’s just me. And then the other thing I’m working on is writing a book. I found it was part of what saved my life literally before I left. I turned to writing down how I felt because I couldn’t tell anyone. I it would be proof that the devil was controlling my mind and you know that I was having questions but I couldn’t deal with it anymore. It was so I couldn’t think straight. I couldn’t see straight.

[03:41:23] I had to sort it out and make sense of how I was feeling what I was thinking. So I’d write it down and I burn it. So you’d find it and have proof that I was wicked. And it helped me get control of my thoughts and make sense and it helped me reach a point where like OK I’m not actually crazy. These things make sense but then it was also scary because they made sense but they they told me that what was going on wasn’t right you know in the church. Right but kind of like I was talking about writing down the names of my nieces and nephews. I’ve gone through times when at first I was like I’m just going to forget my life from before because it hurts too much. I can think about it. I can’t think about my family. I’m going to focus on my future and on my kids and on now. And that worked for a while. But then you start to realize that there is a lot of valuable information to be gleaned and that if we forget history we’re going to be bound to repeat it. And so as things came to my mind I started just writing it out for that I won’t forget. So I can make sense of it so that someday in the future if I end up with a grandchild or someone I know one you know I found this cool cold and I’m thinking about joining I I’m like oh wait I have some stories to help you change your mind. You know I felt like I was losing it.

[03:42:47] I was forgetting and that’s what I was trying to do but I couldn’t let it happen and so I’m trying to remember and it ends up that by the time I’d written out some of the stuff and trying to make sense of it and remember things. I’ve got like over 200000 thousand words down in my computer about my story. And so I thought you know like I made my documentary and published it. I’ve done my blog and I post things on Facebook and I’ve had a lot of people react positively some negatively. There’s been a lot of comments where people are like thank you for doing this or you put into words exactly how I felt and it was. And basically I was helping people work through their own emotions to have somebody be able to put it into words what they were feeling. And then there are a lot of people that private messaged me and say thank you for posting what you did. That’s exactly how I feel. I wanted to reach out. Thank you. But I don’t even like your comment because my family will see that I liked that and it will cause a problem. But I want you to know and I figured for all the people that are brave enough to do that how many more read it feel the same but don’t speak out. How many more. Read it and disagree but it planted that thought. That’s going to keep going in the back of their mind and there will be parallels in their life that doesn’t make them look out a different way.

[03:44:16] And so I thought if I could make a book or two because it’s huge amounts of information it would be a. You know I spent a lot time trying to explain things to people and I feel like I spent hours as you can tell now trying to explain that if I could put it in a concise way in a book it could reach so many more people and maybe help more people. And then I could use that as a foundation if you could read that and that resonated with you. If you have questions I want to help you with the next steps. I would like to do more. It’s like I think everybody should feel that happiness and I feel like there’s a path to doing that. And it’s not through religion in my opinion. It’s not through the AFL. Yes for sure. It’s through your own the power of your own thoughts in mind and you have to be able to get past that indoctrination and believe in yourself and love yourself and then you can start to have that that happiness. So that’s a I don’t have a job right now. Rock my ankle the end of 2015 and so the jobs that I used to do. I can no longer do. One of my dear friends in Utah told me that that was the universe hit me with a two by four because I was ignoring it and not doing what I should have been with my life. And it has definitely helped. And I was like yeah I can kind of see that. I kept thinking you know I’m doing these jobs but I felt this poll that I should be writing and trying to do stuff but money mattered.

[03:46:02] I had to help taking you know you mentally and losing you. Well no it was more of a. And I didn’t know I didn’t see it that way. It turned into being. I mean I agreed with the idea this the universe trying to kind of poke and say you should go into this kind of the whole gut feeling. And I’m like yeah I should. But I got to keep making money I got to take care of that. You know I got to help and there’s like you really should have something come up. I think I wish I could but I got to do this and once I broke my ankle there were no more debates. I was out of the scene. And it changed. It’s changed a lot of things in my life in my circumstances that have been immensely helpful even changing how I interact with my family. The person I was the person that had done everything and now I was the one that couldn’t do anything and everybody stepped up and that didn’t go away. You know my husband does a lot of dishes now. He he did all the cooking the meals and that didn’t stop. Now there’s more of a of a balance and it wasn’t his fault but he wasn’t doing it is just none of us ever thought of it any different now. It kind of hit a reset button but it also made it where I couldn’t do much else. And so I started doing more on trying to remember and write.

[03:47:34] You know I’m laying in bed I can’t get up because my ankles and a Casten or in a splint and so on the one hand I don’t have a job. But I feel like my life is almost an engrossed in what I feel like as more of my mission. I want to help people. I want to. I would love to believe down in my heart that something that I wrote or said or did was a catalyst to help someone else somewhere have that aha moment. This is what happiness feels like love more than anything. Yes that is beautiful. I would tell you that if you continue to put your story out there you will definitely help people whether they ever tell you or not. I mean I I’m just a guy sitting in his basement with a microphone who likes listening to podcasts. And so I thought people kept telling me I should write a book and I’m more of an auditory learner so I thought well I’ll create a podcast and I’ll tell my story. So I created the podcast. I told my story and I know for a fact that at least two people have left the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses because of that and. Yes. Yes. It feels so amazing. And so and those are again it’s like what you said which I thought was kind of a a beautiful insight that I guess I hadn’t really thought about which is that for every person that tells you it’s the whatever it was that you said or did help them or that they liked something that you had written. There are other people who may not hit that like button or may not ever tell you that it’s made an impact on.

[03:49:29] And they may not even make an impact today. It might be 10 years down the road something hit them suddenly and they say oh you know what that guy told me about that 10 years ago on some blog. You just then my know who it was or where they heard it but it stuck in their mind and it might be that it was a combination of what you said and five other things that happened over the next year and you’ll never know and they may never realize it and that’s not the part that matters to them is that I want to be part of the you know the resistance be part of the other side that’s helping people find their freedom. You can’t force it on people but when they’re ready they need the tools that can help them. Turn that crank in their mind and switch to flip the switch. Yeah well you can’t just think in a different light and you don’t know there are so many parallels and crossovers between all these different cults. So in fact I think the last interview I just did and released David had mentioned that it was Leah Remini his program on Scientology that really kind of struck him and made him realize that oh I’m in a cult because Jehovah’s Witnesses may not have exactly the same beliefs as Scientology but they have the same mechanisms. And I mean I’m just listening to your story here and I think that it helps to have someone from a different community in a different voice say the same basic thing in a different way than it does.

[03:51:16] And I’ll say I know that because shortly after we left I got on YouTube and it started with I’d always been fascinated with the Holocaust. Warren Jeffs taught us a sliver of it. And I then found out that most what he told us was pretty twisted Macbeth’s. I started watching some interviews of that and that led in to these interviews these people talking about a cult. And it’s so much easier. It’s safer I guess for your psychology for your psyche to watch something. You know I could watch something about a Jehovah’s Witness telling their story and I’m like okay. We already know they’re the bad guys. You know they’re crazy. We know there are. And so as you listen to it you’re going. How could anybody believe that this is insane and it’s so easy to condemn what they’re doing and then if you stick with it long enough at some point that little light comes out and you’re like wait a minute. That’s really no different than what I was doing. You know if a Jehovah’s Witness was to watch my testimony they’d be like Oh what an idiot she is and we’re holy cow we’re doing the same thing. We’ve got a different guy at the top but the process the thought control. There’s really no no big difference as it’s all the same. And so if you can find someone who’s not from where you came from you may have better success at breaking through that protection and you know crack through that protection you put around your thoughts because it’s OK to think that about Jehovah’s Witnesses. This is like a person who has been abused who would never stand up for themselves.

[03:53:08] But the move is someone else being abused and suddenly the impact of that really hits them they can be righteous or angry for that other person more than they can be for themselves. Yeah. And I even experienced something similar to that. There was a program I went through up in Salt Lake called the woww program women of worth. And so a bunch of women who all had been through hell some of them where they had struggled with addiction or whatever it was basically we all came through the door the first day broken some having been through our experiences and we would meet and you know we talk about things and the whole program was immensely helpful to me. But at one meeting we had where we all were supposed to share can you remember the basis of it. But when it came around the room to my turn it had struck me as like you know the one thing I’ve noticed and it’s the same thing that I am going to tell you about myself is that every one of us allowed to whatever degree you wild use that word allowed ourselves to be in horrible situations. We were being harmed in whatever way and we allowed that to go on. And the thing that finally made us act and change something was when we saw it affecting our children. We could deal with that. You all treat me like crap. I deserve that. You start treating my child like crap and Alderson’s like how dare you as a sew in in what we saw as being spurred into action to save our children.

[03:55:00] Our children saved us from what we were part of because we left for them and that saved our own sanity our own lives. You know you from one end of the spectrum to the other whatever bad thing you were part of because you left for your children you saved yourself also and you didn’t you know you’re like No it was my fault. When you are being bullied that when you watch your child being bullied it gives you a whole different perspective. And it’s you know that was with our children but it works the same with other people you know it’s just like you said you allow things in your own life or you won’t stand up for yourself. But when you see it happening to someone else see you it gives you a different perspective. For one thing. But being someone who has endured and you know how hurt that person feels being treated like that gives you the strength to be like How dare you do that to a person to stand up for that. Now also like a course I want stand up for myself. But then it helps kickstart that thought process in your mind. I don’t deserve that. There was one thing that they told us in that wild program that hit me really really hard because you know I’ve never had a lot of self confidence I have you know I hate cameras. On and on and on. I don’t like myself. I didn’t like you know I was always been fat always been ugly all you know the whole list of things.

[03:56:43] And one of the exercises we did was they said I think we had to write down things that we think of ourselves and it seems. It’s embarrassing if saying anything positive. I mean how vain could you be. And so the easier ones are the ones you’ve heard all your life is all the negatives. I’m ugly I’m fat. I’ve never been any good. I’m not smart. And you write it all down and then they tell us to imagine that you’re talking. Imagine your five the five year old version of yourself and imagine you’re talking to that 5 year old version of yourself. And what would you say to yourself at 5. Would you read off that list of things. And the reality is I start thinking about and like that’s the things I heard everyday. And there are it was killing me inside. And then you end up like I told David I said I would go think I’m ugly crying. I mean this is not that cute know little sniffle here wipe out at the corner of your eyes with your tissues is all out. Sobbing in a room full of people. When you finally go it’s okay to feel bad. It’s OK. That that hurt. And that’s ok. To finally realize that all those horrible things people said Hugh that they never should have said that and who what were they thinking to say that a five year old child and the whole point of it was that you need to be as gentle with yourself now as if you’re talking to that 5 year old child. Look at the things you do get caught if you got your favorite child. You did awesome on that.

[03:58:26] And to you know that was an extremely difficult process. You know the other thing response do is go up and look ourselves in the eyes in the mirror and say all these things good things you know tell yourself you’re beautiful and you’re a mate. I could not do it. I set a bathroom and I cried and I couldn’t do I felt like a liar. How could I not. That’s one thing. I was determined that I was not a liar. I would never lie. How could I lie to myself. And I sat there and cried because I wasn’t beautiful and I wasn’t amazing and I wasn’t any of those things. And I admit I’m still not quite where I feel like I can do that and feel entirely honest but I’ve made a lot of us. But to me it just went to show how damaging the things that we say are now even if we realize that you you like it when they make a mistake. Well that was stupid. You’re an idiot and you may not have meant that you were upset. It sticks and it matters to them. Oh you you did. When you grew up in a society where that is the attitude of the entire society especially towards girls then you know all I could think is I’m looking at myself I’m discovering all these things I’m realizing why I act the way I do I realizing why I struggle with these things. And so I got my associates degree in psychology. Myerson shut up last August right before we moved.

[04:00:07] I chose classes that I felt like applied to what I felt like I had to understand how this works. Why does this happen. I took abnormal psychology I took personality theory and through that I was like It’s not that I’m crazy. That’s what these things do. And if these circumstances made me this way can pretty well be sure that every other woman child that I knew in that religion is damaged in the same way that we can fix it if we can recognize it and make some changes. And it was. It was almost funny. I was in my psychology class you know here I am old enough to be the mother of everybody else in my class. And when she starts talking about learning about anxiety she starts to read down the list of the symptoms. And here I am 44 years old out of the church for like five years or four years whatever and I’m sitting in class and I start crying. I really don’t cry as much as I make as I make it sound just like all those years when I was in the church and I thought there was something wrong with me. I thought I was having a heart attack. I thought there was something physically wrong and I didn’t want to find out because I didn’t want to know if I dropped dead that was fine. In fact maybe it would release me from this torture sooner than those young men and anxiety attack real. And I hadn’t thought about it for years. But as she started describing it I remember that I basically lived in a state of anxiety attack for so long but then also I realized I haven’t done that for a while.

[04:02:16] And how nice that is. But even even that that little bit of knowledge and understanding that no you’re not about to have a heart attack. This is your body’s natural reaction to stress. You were having an anxiety attack and it’s not because you’re weak it is not because the devil whispering to you it’s all you trying to protect you from a danger that it can sense that it knows is harmful to you whether you can comprehend it in your mind or not. Yeah. No it’s I think that anyone who leaves code should be either taking a class in psychology or exposing themselves to it in some way because they will learn a lot about themselves and release themselves of a lot of pain associated with normal human behavior. And it is like oh you’re telling me this is normal. I was doing it was working right. You know it wasn’t wrong. And it really is it’s just another layer of peeling away that harm and those false narratives to understand. Now I wasn’t wrong for having an anxiety attack. It made sense with what I was living through. My mom was working. This is OK. And you know to to be armed with some knowledge it just helps you in every way to get through life. Yeah. As opposed to being isolated in a cold and having very little knowledge your book. Well exactly. You know I think I mentioned that Warren Jeffs had started saying that once you girls are married you shouldn’t be talking to your mothers.

[04:04:04] You know you absolutely shouldn’t be telling your husbands secrets or his family secrets to your mother if you have issues you go to your husband he’s your head. All that and even as a grown married woman I was like Well I mean I believe we need to do that. But my mother’s only real friend they have you know and I and I hated the thought of handing my daughter off and then thinking she couldn’t touch me if she needed to. But after I got out at all the pieces start falling into place and it made sense. I found out the stuff Warren Jeffs was doing and I thought I can imagine my daughter being in that position coming around coming back to me because I’m someone she trusts as her mother saying mother I know that these things that my husband is doing to me and having me do is righteous and that I need to be obedient. But I’m so uncomfortable with it and I feel bad because that must mean I’m wicked and her mother has her mother be like he’s doing what. Because I know. But she doesn’t know she doesn’t know how our own body works because we’re not supposed to teach there. Warren Jeffs was telling these very young girls that he was abusing that having an orgasm. Was that fullness of the Spirit of God that was the burning within and they could only get it in connection with him and they didn’t have a clue. You know view is was a physical follows exactly that is the way it works. He was having them do all kinds of unspeakable things. And I’ve been told I haven’t seen the letters but I have no reason to doubt it.

[04:05:57] I’ve been told that everybody had to keep writing their confession letters and here’s these little girls being directed to do things that their soul told them was wrong but their husband who is actually the prophet of God tells them this is right and righteous and they were writing confessional letters pleading for forgiveness because of how uncomfortable they felt doing the things he told them to do and they knew that it was what God wanted. And he was making a fight against their soul that was telling him this isn’t right you shouldn’t have to do this and he would just then drag him down even further and tell you you’re you have to shut out your own soul. You can’t have that anymore. And anyway the damage done by cults I don’t think we could even imagine or measure it in the research I’ve done I’ve seen where I can remember who it was. But there is a psychologist that said that if we could eliminate childhood trauma especially sexual trauma. But you know the different abuse neglect if you can eliminate childhood trauma the DSM manual which is now like about 700 pages of mouse tape. I got a copy from taking classes would become a pamphlet. I want to thank Brenda for making herself available to tell her story and for being so open and real about it all. I know it wasn’t likely easy to talk about all that if you’d like to continue the conversation. You can go to the link in the description for this episode from my site where you can leave comments for every person that is interviewed. They will see the comments and they can reply and you can spark a conversation with them.

[04:07:49] If for some reason the links don’t show up in your particular podcast app you can go to shun podcasts dot com and on the episodes page you’ll see each one with the link for commenting. You’ll also have links for the songs that each person chose to represent their journey which unfortunately I can’t play on here due to copyright issues. You also see links to different resources that are mentioned by each guest. Ways that you can support the show. Anything you might want or need is there on that page. Speaking of resources Brenda actually has a documentary out on the YouTube’s called if this is heaven. Give me hell. It’s another look into her story and you’ll see some photos and such in it if you’d like to learn more. It’s a 20 minute short documentary and it’s well worth the watch. So again it’s called if this is heaven. Give me hell. And it’s on YouTube and I’ll go ahead and place a link in the notes for this episode as well. For that she also has a blog that I’ve linked to if you’d like to keep up with some of the developments in the the cult of the LDS and you can learn more there as well and you know of course by now we all know the hashtag meta that’s trended throughout the world. But there is another hashtag hashtag me 3 written out Emmi H R E that refers to polygamy. And so if you want to support that you can maybe learn something from that. Or you know maybe that that’s you know I don’t know who’s listening.

[04:09:28] So maybe that’s part of your life as well. And that hashtag me 3 can help bring some awareness to what polygamists go through. If you’d like to learn more about my story and the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses you can listen to my podcast series called ThisJ.W. life or you can find more out at thisjwlife.com if you’d like to support this podcast. You can do so in a few ways. First I love seeing comments and conversations on the shud podcast dot com site because it supports those who are being so open and vulnerable and telling their stories you know before before every interview. People are nervous to sell their stories before even after they’ve done the interview before the week before when I tell them that their episode is going to come out. Usually people are nervous. You know it’s it’s scary to put yourself out there on some level. It’s very freeing but it’s also a little nerve wracking and you never know how it’s going to be received. So it really helps to see that that people can reflect your stories back to you that they’ve lived some of that as well to find that common ground and to just be encouraged by others so first and foremost that’s one of the ways to support the show. Second I love seeing five star reviews pop up on iTunes with great comments. It really helps lend credibility to what we’re doing here. It’s encouraging to me personally and it may help others define the show and get help that they might need as well.

[04:11:00] And finally you can support the show’s ongoing monthly cost financially by becoming a patron at patreon.com/shunned. If you want to help out that way there’s also a link on the Web site to the patriarch for this particular show. All musical support for the show is from Poddington Bear and next month we’ve got our first international interview as I interview a former member of Jehovah’s Witnesses from the United Kingdom. His name is Mark not just a great guy but he is also some of those who listen. If you’re familiar with the forum jehovahs-witness.com if you’re a member of that forum then you know Mark as pale imper on there. So join us again in June. Learn more about him his journey and even some things that recently happened as a surprise at the end. So as always love others do no harm and go be happy.

DJ Is Shunned By Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:10] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we get to hear stories from people that have been silenced by controlling religion. Today we’re going to hear from D.J a guy that is shunned by Jehovah’s witnesses so that they don’t have to face the truth. Before we get started I wanted to introduce the new format. Some of you probably noticed that things have changed its arms from episode to episode. And honestly that’s because I’m trying to find the right mix here. When I was done doing my other podcast called this JW life where I told my personal story. I was contacted by others and people wanted me to help them tell their story. To be quite honest I wasn’t really ready for it. Telling my story was a big deal. I was kind of overwhelmed by it all to some extent. And so when others wanted me to help them to tell their stories I was doing it. But honestly I wasn’t that comfortable with it. So at first my goal was to keep myself out of the interview. I didn’t want to make this podcast about me. I just did one about me and that level of vulnerability was kind of tiring so I felt like I was thrown into an interviewer’s role but I wasn’t really comfortable with my abilities as an interviewer. It’s not something I’ve ever really done before so as a result I would remove my audio and produce more individual stories. Well over time some of the people that I interviewed asked me to be in the story with them.

[00:01:41] They said it would make them more comfortable but honestly it was making me more uncomfortable. Then came David in these last episodes and his story was so involved that I couldn’t edit it. I had to leave me in it and it kind of pushed me out there as an interviewer. I received some feedback from people that liked having me in it more. And I’ve been asked to be in it more by the people that I’ve interviewed. So now you’re stuck with me. I’m finding my voice as an interviewer I hope and people seem to like it so I’m going to try to go ahead and settle in here. Now I’m feeling more comfortable as an interviewer but I’m trying to stay out of the way as much as possible because I still want the focus to be on the person that I interview. I hope to add my own flavor in my own way. With this episode the podcast will go over 7000 downloads which is amazing to me. ThisJ.W. life my original podcast which covered my story and the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses has now gone over 18000 downloads so it’s exciting to know that these are making some sort of a difference and to hear feedback from people. So let’s go ahead and get into a story and afterword I’m going to give some more information that you’ll want to stick around for. My name’sD.J. I’m 27 years old. I was one of Joves witnesses and I am shen. How did you come to be one of Jehovah’s witnesses you know like what age were you were you born in. Did you come in later. How that how that developed.

[00:03:23] So I was actually born into the Jehovah’s Witness religion. So that was just a lifestyle that I had always known so that that would be making me a third generation member. So my my grandmother met a man in the 60s and she had my dad and I and his sister with a man and they were both worldly at the time so obviously worldly meaning somebody who doesn’t serve or bowed down or get baptized by water immersion to Jehovah or more importantly the Watchtower organization and its interpretation of the Bible. But these these were just two people that met each other had children and they were just they themselves trying to grasp you know the wonders of the world and questioning death. Why do we die. What happens to our dead loved ones. Is there life after death. So to the best of my knowledge and later in my life as I’ve come to find out that that man that she had met it was just a real you know real piece of shit. Basically he he was my dad’s real dad but my real grandfather and my grandma tried to make it made to work with him. But ultimately he wanted nothing to do with her or any any of his children. So later in the 60s she separated from that man and met my step grandfather. And he was he was in the war. And they would they would get to know each other and decide ultimately through friends eventually that they met that that they were gonna become one of Jehovah’s Jehovah’s Witnesses and raise their children. My dad and his his sister in that organization.

[00:05:17] So my dad was born into it you know basically born and raised in it at 2 years old he was introduced to it from his you know his parents. And so yeah he grew up as a Jehovah’s Witness. And that’s basically how I would be later introduced to my dad you know he made it sound growing up that he was never really into it. It was just kind of a formality. My grandma my grandfather was extremely possessive and often times you know physically and emotionally abusive. And he would later become an elder and he would still have courses. That’s just kind of the process the ladder you climb. Yeah. And my my grandma my grandfather was a pretty successful person. He owned his own business and my dad would grow up to work with him. And at a certain point as my dad was getting older both him and his sister started getting you know into trouble with bad association and and he would ultimately be you know his sister before him got baptized and he she was younger than him at the time but I think she was I don’t know 18 or 19 when she got disfellowshipped for having relations with an unbeliever of Jehovah’s Witnesses and she would later get disfellowshipped for her wrongdoing or unrepentant ness and she would never return. So it’s been 30 30 year almost 30 years now that she’s been out and my dad like I said he wasn’t baptized when his sister was and he ultimately made the choice to to leave as well and kind of do his own thing and be worldly and go off and live the life that he thought he was missing out on and it just didn’t.

[00:07:18] You know like I said my dad growing up. He went and he just made it seem like it was nothing he was really really interested into. You know he was just something that he had to do. So once he was out of you know the organization he moved to theL.A. area along the coast and he just spent a couple of years outside the organization Dušan is his own thing and at which point he ended up having my daughter my half sister with a woman and they went to stay together but they would share custody of of her. And then you know a year or two after that he would he would meet my mom outside of the Joves Witness organization and she was worldly and she was she was raised Catholic. So she was raised around religion herself. And when they met each other they would talk about beliefs often. And my dad was trying to tell her exactly how he grew up in the good things about the organization and no doubt you know you can’t blame her for when she found out exactly the ins and outs of the organization and what he was raised in. She she’s like What are you doing. You have the truth. So ultimately she would convince my dad to return and start studying but. Yes. So they were both out when they met. And she. She like I said would convince him to ultimately return and for them both to study so and would take into consideration at this time. Now I keep my mom’s pregnant with me. So I think that that was maybe a determining factor.

[00:09:07] Two of them just worry about evaluating their life situation and you know trying to understand their next move. So I think down the line. Yeah yeah. And I think it is more out of pressure. You know when people get to that point in their life where they have to re-evaluate their situation because they might not be in a good place and I know my dad told me that when he was outside of the organization he got a you know he dabbled in drugs and got into trouble and obviously their lives were the best that they could be and they had to say you know sit down and talk to each other about okay what are we going to do now we’re you know pregnant withD.J me. So they would return. And then like I said my mom was baptized with me and they would go to Vegas actually in a look. So they got married and then shortly after that they got baptized. Yeah. So then. So then were you baptized while she was pregnant. I believe so yeah. I believe yes she was she was still pregnant. They both got baptized together. Maybe there’s some way you could have gone back in an older baptism somehow. Yeah I never I never considered that maybe baptized twice a double dip it was invalid. OK. Yeah. All right so then that’s really interesting I think that there are a lot of people who when they have kids start to re-evaluate things and it’s fascinating that it happens to have been your mom.

[00:10:49] That was never a witness that you know got you guys back into your dad back into it. That’s that’s a unique course. So then so you know your parents are baptized obviously you you come into the world. You know what. What did it mean to you to be a Jehovah’s Witness back then. You know what. What was the world view you were given you know even as a little kid. Well like I said it was just something I always knew was just a way of life. That was the condition. You know into me unbeknownst. So this was typical. I just thought that every family was like this and I would later come to find out that that wasn’t the case when I would start school. So growing up you know before school I remember a lot of arguments a lot of verbal abuse from both ends of my parents just because of them going through this struggle of trying to make it work with a new child in this organization. My dad was starting his own business and. And at the time my mom and dad were both fighting for full custody of my half sister. So before school I remember you know my earliest memory was 2 years old and it was just extreme extreme arguments and verbal abuse and shouting and that’s just my earliest memories of my family before school so. But when I started school you know that’s when the indoctrination really kicked in because Jehovah’s Witnesses right off the bat you know if your parents are really trying they’re going to they’re going to help you understand that you’re one of Joves witnesses in how to stand up for your beliefs.

[00:12:44] So the first day of school I mean weeks before the first day of kindergarten I remember my mom sitting down with me and going over what would be my first demonstration essentially of walking up to my kindergarten teacher and telling him in front of the class and their parents that I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and handing him you know a Jehovah’s Witness publication which I don’t exactly remember which one it was but it was probably life harder to get here by evolution or creation. So then I went straight into that I didn’t salute the flag and the reason why. And and just went into that whole mumbojumbo and standing up for my my faith. So you know my belief system right off the bat wow and you had to do that. Did you say in front of other kids and like their parents. Yeah absolutely. The orientation there’s Tom. Yeah exactly. So the first day you know all the kids are sitting around on the ground and you know you’d be introduced by the teacher and you’d stand up and say your name. And that’s when I had my little my book or whatever it was exactly I don’t I don’t remember but that’s what I would stand up and say you know I’mD.J. I’m one of Joves witnesses and you know I don’t salute the flag and you know in my mind it was just raising controversy right off the bat. Yeah it has a place for a kid that early. Right. And I remember pretty distinctively wondering why it necessarily hadn’t had to do that like that.

[00:14:23] Yeah but I didn’t really understand the ramifications of it to its fullest extent because I was so young but it did raise you know an eyebrow to me like you know why is this absolutely necessary. So it was and it was it was already a daunting enough task to stand up in front of all of those people that I didn’t know. You know that’s that that young. And right off the bat just kind of Varty chevin endowments throats like this is what to be expected from me. That’s yeah that’s you. Welcome to your life right. You mean as early as that you know. WILDER Yeah that’s right that’s right. I have to put on a kid and obviously like you said it didn’t have to be done that way that could have been done in private. That was just making a point and making a spectacle. Right. And I think looking back at it you know my mom always seemed to be that type of person where it was like all or nothing. You want to stand out and you know make a difference and stand up for your beliefs. She was a bit of an extremist and it that was just that it was just one of those things that was ingrained to me even before I started school weeks prior that we were going to sit down and make sure that everything was accordingly so that there was no hiccups and that it seemed like this was something that meant a lot to me that young when in actuality it didn’t. It was just something that was driven into my head. Wow.

[00:15:52] All right so then how did things progress you know at school or even you know like in the Keenum Hall how were how are things going back then. Well it’s so easy it’s with school the you know the introduction to each following school year would continue with the same familiar routine. Taking a stand for my beliefs in front of my new teacher first thing before each and every school year. You know while being in the public school system so this is this it became something that I would start to avoid if at all possible eventually praying that my mom would just forget to prepare me for that first day of school. And you know as a Jehovah’s Witness in school I was obligated to not only share with my school teacher that I don’t celebrate any holidays that you know obviously includes birthdays but explain to my new friends or acquaintances you know how as a Jehovah’s Witness as I was told not to call them friends so this didn’t seem to cause any issue with my teachers or schoolmates as well but I remember distinctively in the second grade that kind of changing for me. So it changed for me in the sense that I became aware that when there was holiday events or it was somebodies birthday I would be given extra work or go color in a different corner than where the activities were taking place or oftentimes being physically segregated from you know the other kids so as not to see the fun that they were having at somebodies birthday. So this is when I really started to wonder why I couldn’t be with my friends and basically having a vacation from the normal school day to you know laugh and play and eat cake.

[00:17:40] So you know as a young kid the only question I have questions that I started thinking about was why can it play with the other kids and more importantly why did they get cake and and why couldn’t I. So these these things I remember my mother trying her best to explain to me as a two year old that ultimately the reason why. Can I have cake is that it would upset God. So you know in my mind thinking back at that it’s like kids that young can’t reason know or have the concept of faith that you know I was a PEMRA. I was only projecting what was driven into my mind. I knew that it made my family happy. The yeah you know there in the Bible where it condemns cake Yeah it is so it’s so silly. So then how did things you know how are you doing. So obviously you know school is it is drama really. I mean it’s not not going to make you happy because you’re you know it’s just a place where you have to confront all of these issues that aren’t even your issue that your parents issues or issues of religion that they took on. What about. So you know you’re going to the Keenum Hall as this young person you know. What’s that like. How is that impacting you. Well I would see that you know the early stages that my parents would my parents would take us to as much meetings as possible. They were never extremely regular you know. Mind you they were in their early 20s.

[00:19:14] You know my mom had me when she was 19 years old so going through the school system I I remember my parents being the youngest people so a lot of kids thought my parents were actually my older brother sister. So going to going to meetings obviously in their 20s it was pretty inconsistent it was hit and miss. But it was almost that they you know preached do as I say not as I do. You know especially when it came to schools like you know take this huge stand for your belief. But you know we would be really hit and miss with meetings. And it really didn’t make sense. But what I realized was that the Kingdom Hall was a place where I actually could have some friends but these were by choice. Naturally they were just kind of almost arranged friendships because these were acceptable kids to associate with outside of you know anything else that you knew. So yeah. So the early days of you know being a kid in that organization that was 0 7 6 and 7 when you know my parents were already making me sit down and do the checkmarks like and yet pay attention in any form that I could like you know put a checkmark by God or Jesus or when we turn to the Bible those things if you know something to just preoccupy a child then I remember distinctively not wanting to you know essentially do that. I’d rather doodle or draw or color. And you know even at six or seven that’s not that that wasn’t acceptable.

[00:20:54] I remember being pulled out yanked by my arm outside and getting spanked because I wasn’t paying attention and apparently paying attention meant that I would have to be like I said when Jesus was announced from the stage Stager Jehovah I’d make checkmarks and that was what I was supposed to be doing not not color so I’d get it. And you know I get Spade’s I get in trouble if I wasn’t doing those things. Isn’t it amazing the the pressure that is put on kids to live up to something it’s kind of like you brought out like you know here you were having to like go to school and confront all of these things and yet your parents weren’t even a regular at the meetings you know you were taking more of a stand as a child than they were and of course your mom never even grew up in it. So she has no idea. Much like same with my parents. They grew up they didn’t grow up in it. So they had no idea what they were sending me to do every day. They had no concept of the stand I was being forced to take for them. And they I don’t know that they would have taken that stand. I don’t know if you know I mean you’d have to put them in that position. But right of course my parents were very regular and very militant. Sure. But you know it is funny just to see the the. No it’s not funny it’s sad to see the pressure put on these these young kids. So your year in the Kingdom Hall you know you’re starting to be indoctrinated really you know by just having to pay attention and you know they’re already kind of showing you you know that it’s works. You know this is a religion of works.

[00:22:45] It’s all about sitting there and making a checkmark when they say a word or something like that it’s not right. It’s not about who you are. It’s more about what you do. So then what was it you know at home you had said that before school year your parents were you know stressed out and fighting and establishing businesses and and you know getting involved in this cult that required a lot out of them. So how did that kind of progress at home. You know as you as you start getting into Year started getting a little older you know around and started going into your teenage years on hand for young adulthood. What was that progression at home like. Well you know it was it was really extremely hectic because my parents were still fighting for full custody. This was a battle that took a long time actually. And it you know on top of them trying to establish my dad my father’s business they were dealing with the court system and they’re also like you said programmed to believe that they were absolutely required to make as many of these meetings as possible be out in the field Ministry as well. This is this is something that is almost like a full time job within itself let alone raising three children because you know my parents ended up having another brother that’s five years younger than me. So now it’s me my brother and my sister living in this house. And it was my my childhood wasn’t extremely horrible by any stretch but it was just maybe it was I don’t know it but it didn’t seem like that.

[00:24:22] Yeah but there was a lot a lot of arguing verbal abuse and it was just being home was it. Oftentimes it was the best thing ever or the worst thing ever. It was never a real medium. It was just up or down and it was dependent on the mood of my parents that day. I understand I feel you there. Neira Yeah. All right. So then you know that was kind of volatile. How how were you progressed. Like were you making any progress. You know as as the years went by in the religion you know how did you you know progressed a baptism or you know what was that process like for you. Well I want to be baptized till I was about 17. So back end up going through the motions as a child my only in my mind did as much as my parents you know. Like I said it was something where it might be a Joerres when his parents can live by do as I say not as I do and my parents like I said we’re never really regular growing up. And it was something in my mind that I said well I’m only going to try as hard as you. So in meetings and stuff like that where were just formalities. For me it was just something that was required of me. So it was never anything that I really took to heart or anything that I really dove deep into wanting to understand because it was just a little too difficult for me to I understand some of the rules and regulations even at the youngest of ages.

[00:26:07] You know I don’t understand why even playing outside let alone kids from school I remember you know. You know about to be in middle school still in elementary school fifth grade having you know friends say Hey can I come over and they would come out with me to parent my parents car. You know as kids do it it just kind of sway their parents decision. And I would have my my buddy by me and I’d be like you know that can so-and-so come over and they would they would say you know my mom would say no. Not todayT.J. not today. And that was always something that was you know I did try over and over again. And you know once I would get home I would ask my mom why. So why can its own so come over. And I was just told yet again that as one of Joe’s witnesses that God did not approve of that type of association being that they were world. So I did it. I didn’t fully understand exactly what it was that made them so unworthy of my friendship. And so I was slightly confused to say the least. But after the following day or the weekend would pass after you know asking if that friend would come over. You know my my buddy would come up and ask you know why can’t I come over or if I can’t come to your house. Do you think you could come over to mine. And I knew in my you know in my mind that if my parents weren’t gonna allow a worldly person to come over to my house that there wasn’t a chance in hell that I’d be able to go to theirs.

[00:27:33] And this would affect my my relationships with kids at school because you know I would just imagine they’re there. Parents were aware of their child wanting to hang out with me or vice versa. And you know just being told me relaying that information to my buddy of why they can explain to them that they were actually his witness and that they didn’t believe me they believe the same things that my my parents did and that was unacceptable. I could just imagine them going back home and telling their parents that and how offended they must have been and probably told their kids like how about you avoid that person. Yeah it’s very arrogant. Yeah it is. And growing up I would just get to see more and more how Jehovah’s Witnesses are very entitled and they feel superior. So that was something that was starting to get ingrained into my mindset was like people just weren’t acceptable you know they were just they were just you know cogs in the world somebody that was there but not really. Absolutely. So then that you as you were growing up did you. It doesn’t sound like your parents were probably the type that they ever like auxillary pioneer or anything. Did you ever get you know drug through those processes. You know that when it happened until my mom would reach her mid 30s I think so. My dad growing up was never the spiritual head. And to this day never has one. Yeah.

[00:29:13] So he was always just somebody who was just so interesting because he was the Jehovah’s Witness before you know my mother you know growing up he knew exactly what it was that you were supposed to do to climb up the ladder. My dad you know from what he said some deep conversations that I had with him as I would start to drift away was that it was never something that he did either but he knew it as the truth. So in his mind that was good enough. And that was not the case with my mom. She always wanted him to be the spiritual head and pushing for you know family study and taking the sound field ministry. And it was it was it was like pulling teeth with my dad as much as it was for the kids to get ready for meeting or service. And my mom is always the driving force that that person that was really the one that got us going. So you know might like I said my mom my mom or dad didn’t really do anything and the truth as far as like extracurricular until my mom was in her mid mid 30s and she would start to auxillary and start going on service more and stuff like that. So then how would you have been then. Were you pushed into that as well or were you old enough to maybe not have to go along with everything. Yes so at this time you know I’ll jump to a role a little a little back again where. Yeah. So this was I don’t know. I had been 13 near 13 or so. But anyways right before I started middle school so my sister became increasingly more and more into boys you know as normal teens grow up you know girls do.

[00:30:58] And I remember on this one specific occasion. My I was just graduating like elementary school going into middle school and my parents said that I could have five of my friends within the organization go to Magic Mountain. They were going to take me to Magic Mountain. So they did a sleepover at my house. All the kids were over and the next morning my dad was coming home with you know our dog he had taken the dog to the vet the day before and he was he said that once he came back from the vet that morning he was going to pick up the dog and once he came back to drop off the dog to be OUTFRONT and ready to go so that he can just kind of pick us up. So I mean my buddies are all outside you know play and skateboarding and just doing whatever out front waiting for my dad to come home and it was like 8:00 in the morning or something like that. And as soon as he pulls up he gets the dog jumps out of the truck and then he left the truck running and we’re all still playing in the front yard. And when my dad was taking the dog inside a guy ran along the side of our house that was just waiting there jumped in my dad’s truck and virtually stole it right in front of us kids and we were like wait we thought it was a joke. I thought maybe it was a neighbor or somebody that my dad knew was just so confused.

[00:32:24] And he ends up going into the cul de sac and realizing it was a dead end and turning and hitting curbs and cars and just messing up the truck and long story short he ends up being chased by one of my neighbors and my dad in a car. And my neighbor was on a dirt bike and they ended up catching the guy and in my mind I was like oh my gosh I was so crazy. My dad’s brand new truck that he had just gotten was totaled. I was like I had my friends there and I was young enough to be like well this sucks. Like I mean it sucks for my parents that they had to do that but for me and my mind I was like well it sucks even more that now I can’t go to a magic minute with my friends and me and my dad my dad is you know cool as he was was like No absolutely not. That’s what insurance is for. Roof handled it with the cops. Yeah. And he ended up taking me to Magic Mountain with all of my friends. Lol that’s nice. Yeah. So it was cool it was a crazy start to the day to say the least. And so when we’re at magic note we’re having a great time and I remember distinctively my dad getting the phone call and he did not look happy. He just looked shocked. He was just like wow. And I was just like well you know he he pulled me sightlines is something about that track or what he’s like.

[00:33:39] We’re going to have to wrap this up soonA.J. And it was maybe like 2:00 or 3:00 in the afternoon and it was you know we still had a couple hours at the theme park in my mind. But now is being cut short but I was just happy that we were we got to go regardless. So. So on the way home I was thinking Oh the kids are gonna come back to my house and my dad’s like now we’re going to we’re going to have to drop them all off. We have something to attend to at home and where I would later find out once we got home is that as my sister was getting more and more the boys apparently while my mom was gone at work she was watching my little brother at home and she had been talking to a boy up the street. And apparently when she and my brother were there that boy that she had liked and had been talking to came over and my mom found out and they didn’t do anything. They were just you know they were young my sister was 16 at the time. And they just he came over and hung out. And my mom found out and boy was that a scene. It was yeah it was clearly evident growing up that my mom treated her different than my sister different than me and my brother and I think that she harbored harsh feelings towards my sister because she was technically not her child and that she helped fight for essentially and Bray’s this this girl was an easy process and my dad treated her differently. Might my sister as well differently but never in a way that made me or my brother Phil jealous. Like she got special treatment or anything but that. That was evident in my mind.

[00:35:18] That was my dad’s only daughter and you can tell how much she just loved her. But I think over the years my mom grew increasingly jealous of this and cannot wait for my sister you know to mess up. So once my mom found out she just lost her mind and she came into the house and was screaming at my sister throwing stuff out or hating her and calling her all kinds of names like you whore you’re gonna end up just like your mom and then that was just like it. And this was it. This wasn’t anything out of the ordinary for me. This was just another time that my mom was upset because this is how she treated us kids that young when she was upset there would be a lot of name calling. There’d be no physical abuse. And so my sister at this point had enough of it. At sixteen years old she realized because growing up to this point and this was just it. This is not how things were handled in my house. My dad was never physically abusive. He I don’t think he’s ever raised a hand to me or any of my siblings. And if he did it’s a race from my mind because it was nothing in comparison to him our mother you know handled disciplinary action. So once my my sister went through this with my mom for the last time she she was fed up and she actually ended up running away and that would be the last time that my sister would live with us.

[00:36:48] You know and I would see her for years because she ultimately went to move back in with her mom and wanted nothing to do with the organization or coming back home. Wow that’s pretty harsh. That’s that’s a hard so hard situation for you to watch. Watch your sister leave. Yeah. I mean it was hard on your parents too I’m sure. Yeah it was definitely hard on the family on multiple levels. But I know for me it was hard because my sister at the time was essentially my best friend you know we were only two years apart. And you know this was somebody I could be 100 percent myself around with my parents her other family was around to hold us to our witness beliefs and standards it was almost it almost seemed like an unspoken bond that we had of sharing mixed emotions about our faith being so young. But you know we just we’re essentially each other’s competence. So for her to just be uprooted that one day it was such an extreme day already on so many levels. And that was like the catalyst. It was just it just stood out in my mind as like it was just extreme circumstances. And it was really sad that that would be her last time you know ever coming back home or me getting home from school and her being there that was that was the end of that. Wow. Yeah that’s that’s hard hard. I’m sure it was really hard you know on her to to leave as well. You know it’s just I mean I’m sure you know in her mind in the moment it was just I’ve got to get away from crazy. Oh absolutely.

[00:38:33] But you know it’s tough. And I think she knew her options too because growing up like I said there was a lot of abuse in the family. And she she saw that my parents were having this in you know to face approach at raising their family in this organization where at home you know like on paper our family look like picture perfect you know to the hall or the organization but as soon as we’re back home you know that’s when the dragon was released. If any of us fell out of line and we didn’t do what we’re told and I think my sister knew her options at that time which was that she had you know her real mom that wasn’t a Jobs witness that was encouraging her to come live with her and get out of that environment. And she really she she took her mom up on that. And I couldn’t blame her. No. You know even to this day I I honestly to this day wished I had the you know the balls or the opportunity to do something like that myself at that age. But I I just remember thinking I wish I could have left to try. But like Good for you. Just keep running. That’s funny. You know I brought up you know for me as as a kid I can remember I always wanted to run away. I had nowhere to go to but man did I want to run away. If I I would sit there and try to make plans where could I go. You know I know where my grandparents live.

[00:40:09] I could go there but that’s not going to go over well. Yeah. And that’s a long law. It was you know like a 20 mile walk right. You know. But as a kid you know you you have no concept of some of that but I wonder how many kids there are out there that you know were born and raised Jehovah’s Witnesses where they just felt so out of control and they just they just wanted a break. They just wanted to get away to go somewhere. And I’m sure that you know those feelings are felt and shared by a lot of people. Yeah. And I think that’s a good point because I mean even at that age I remember distinctively that that’s when he would start in my mind that man I wish I could leave this. I don’t want this either. It’s causing us so much know personal pain. And I just didn’t understand why there was so much hypocrisy or double standards even at even at that age and in my mind that’s when it would start. Like there was that little seed that was planted at that point where in my mind I was like I started questioning more and more and started to do less and less of what my my mother was requiring of me. And that really started in middle school. You know I started to act differently. And you know as jobs when you’re not supposed to dress a certain way. But I was like really into skateboarding so I dressed like a skater and being told that I couldn’t wear you know a certain belt because it had studs on it or you know something as dumb as that.

[00:41:54] So I remember I’m like rolling up my belt and put it in my backpack and once I got to school I’d put it on and like and my sister would do this too. She would take clothes that she would want to wear like a you know a tube top or whatever it was in style and you know the you know the late 90s but we would essentially dress a certain way before school just a change into what we felt more comfortable in. We weren’t supposed to dress that way but I I wanted to make my friends you know I wanted to fit in essentially and I basically started to living somewhat of a double lifestyle at you know 13 13 years old and this would really be the time that I would start questioning my beliefs and justify my actions that went against my family’s beliefs and my mom would soon start to see that pattern and behavior and it was an obvious change and she thought that my dealings with the kids there were worldly. You know it was a worldly influence and it was a bit much. And she was she was right in that sense. It was I was definitely starting to change. And so I would only actually attend a year of middle school before being taken out to finish my education through an independent schooling system. So at this time my mom said like it’s just getting too much and I started becoming really independent and not wanting to do what was asked of me.

[00:43:24] And so she wanted to take me out of school and I was all for it actually because I thought to myself when she approached me with wanting to take me I thought to myself well I can’t I can’t live the lifestyle that I want in school. So it was too hard for me to be in school because you know I wanted to do certain things I wanted to hang out with certain people go to their house do go skateboarding with them. But these things weren’t allowed. I was just like well what’s the point. So yeah I wanted to get out of school because in my mind I was thinking well I’ll just get all my work done and have the rest of the day to do what interests me you know. So yeah. So I did a lot of what interests me skateboarding and a lot of our once you know I’d finish all of my school my schooling for that day. You know my mom would actually catch on to what I was doing which was I’d wake up super early get all of my work for that day. Done super early and then the minute the rest of the day I would just kind of do whatever I wanted to skateboard play video games. And I actually I at I started to actually absolutely love it. And you are live in a country. Yeah. Exactly. I felt like for once in my life I got some semblance of freedom like now. Now I have time my time and you know I and I viewed it that way because my my mom had started to go to work because my dad’s business was starting to fail. And so no one was really home to micromanage me anymore during the day and I absolutely loved it.

[00:44:57] And you know my mom eventually caught on to what I was doing and she thought I had too much free time on my hands. So she then advised me that I needed to make a schedule to go out in the ministry more so that I could quote unquote spend my time more wisely. So there goes the dream. Yes. So that was a pretty short lived. And that’s when I would actually for the first time be introduced to more activities within the organization. So I was about 14 15 when this happened. And. And so she said you know I needed to start making a weekly schedule and asked some kids that I grew up with that we’re at this point doing really well spiritually to ask them if I can go on service with them because they started pioneering and these were kids that I grew up with in the organization and they were the closest thing in my mind to the coolest kids that I knew that I could hang out with. So it wasn’t it wasn’t the end of the world for me to start going on service with them because in my mind I was like oh well we’ll hang out. And these were kids these were two brothers they were a little over a year apart and I believe one was baptized at 13 and the other one was at 14. So when I when I started hanging out with them it you know I was just like a wild there already baptized and in my mind I was like there’s no way I want to do that. And I didn’t really feel like hanging out with them all too much.

[00:46:25] But it seemed because it just seemed like they were a little too gung ho on the truth. You know when kids that are baptized that you know that young typically their parents are holier than thou and their children cannot do those things to appease their parents. And it was very evident to me that that that was the case. And you guys are the really I’m raising my hand right. Yeah. Go ahead. It’s me. That’s me. Yeah. In this wasn’t something that I faulted him for because it was weird how my mind my mindset started to change and it really started to mature as far as the way I process things and I became way more introspective when I started questioning things and looking at other people’s scenarios and not really faulting them form because they were so young that they weren’t even thinking about these things they were just going through the motions to make their parents happy and I could see right through it at the youngest of ages and that they weren’t really doing it for themselves. Even if they said they did but it was completely obvious how much praise and respect that they got from the older ones their parents and how most of the time even other kids for being driven spiritually at such a young age. But these two brothers that I had played with earlier in childhood they were at the time the most interesting kids that I could associate with in the organization. So I would start going out in the ministry with them a couple times during the week after my schooling. Just just so that my mom would stay off my case.

[00:47:59] So then how how do we get from this period of time. So you’re you know what right. You know 14 15 you Alan I think you said you were getting back you got baptized at 17. Right. So how do you go from you know the kid that is that is kind of on the outs that is perceptive enough to see that you know these other kids that got baptized super young and you know weren’t really as sincere as you know it appeared. What was the transition that got you from you know in those next couple of years to the point of being baptized. Well like I said I was home. I was being homeschooled and doing it going out in the field ministry door to door. More more and more often with these kids that were pioneering. So this was something that kind of grew on me because I really did start to enjoy their association. As far as the friendship that we started to cultivate. And it wasn’t necessarily about the truth or enjoying the film ministry that would that would kind of start to happen where I was like oh this isn’t the worst because I’m surrounded by my friends and we’re having a good time. Right. But what would really be the Catalyst’s of me pushing to get baptized. Was they had those two brothers that I mentioned. I would start to associate with into my teen years. They had a cousin and she was my age and she would come to visit all the time and meet her started to have an interest in each other.

[00:49:38] About 16 16 years old and essentially to make a long story short we would start to in so many words. Yeah. Even though we weren’t supposed to talk. And people were kind of privy to the fact that we were we’re texting and stuff like that. So once I got to the point where I I wanted to be able to date this person. She had already been baptized the kids that I was associating with are already baptized and I can see a difference. You know a mindset change in all of the kids that I started to associate with and their parents where at 16 years old you know they’re like well he should. He’s definitely old enough to get baptized. And you’re talking to my daughter but you’re not spiritually strong. So by me getting baptized it was 100 percent because I felt those the ramifications the negative ramifications of being that outskirt guy that did it and that wasn’t baptized. And more importantly I wanted to impress this girl’s parents and let them know like I’m taking this serious. Why are you telling me that some people get baptized not out of a dedication to to the Most High. But just a desire to please other people or because undue influence was you know it was put upon them or a hundred percent. You know I think I think I wonder how many kids that get baptized have any real like I don’t know. You know I guess the dedication that we were told we were supposed to have was kind of romanticized. Right.

[00:51:23] But you know I think most of us did it because we knew at a certain point we had to whether it was to please our parents or to date some boy or girl or to just fit in with our friends or not be looked down upon in the congregation. Yep. Yeah I think that was most of it is. Yeah. And I mean at that age too. You know I was when I was this age you know I was 17 when I got baptized but really I started being pushed at 16 to do it. And I just I didn’t want to I knew in my mind I didn’t want to because I knew how important it was and by important I mean important to everyone else. Yeah but it didn’t make sense to me. And at the time the truth really did it make sense to me because there is a lot of things in my mind that I just can’t get over. I was very privy to the hypocrisy with other families in the carnation. And like I said I just I saw right through. Kids getting baptized at that young of an age. And I was just like they’re not doing it for the right reasons. If I’m going to get baptized I’m going to do it on my own accord because it makes sense to me because that’s what baptism should be. Right. Right. Is your personal dedication to Jehovah. Little did I know that that dedication is actually to watch heart organization God himself. So yeah essentially I got baptized because I wanted to ultimately please my parents make them look good prove to the girl that I was talking to. That I I was serious.

[00:53:05] And her parents and everyone around me that their association would stop and dwindling with me because I wasn’t taking that stand for my faith. Yeah that’s that’s a tough period of life because you’re taking such an inauthentic step that has such huge ramifications later in life. So then how did how did this play out so you get baptized. You know you’ve got this girl. How do things start to how do things change after that. So at this time. So my. My mom my mom and dad were pretty big drinkers growing up and like I said they were they were they were young parents so they still partying a lot. They had their friends and they would go to barbecues and get all sauced up and I would see this all the time you know my parents would get in huge fights because you know someone said this and all the gossip and they’re all you know drinking and getting drunk and arguing about the dumbest things. When are you talking about women’s with these ladies. Yeah yeah. The ones that tell you how to live your life you don’t says right. Yeah. I saw this happening and like I said my parents were pretty heavy drinkers especially by witness standards. And my mom especially and now at this time in my life 16 years old 17 years old my mom had like I said went to work a couple years prior to that and she got into real estate because my dad’s business failed so they ended up getting declaring bankruptcy on that business. My dad was starting up another one.

[00:54:51] And so this was a really stressful time for my family yet again and my mom started doing real estate and she ended up actually becoming really really successful and becoming the breadwinner by far at this point in my life. And but along with that stress for her came even more and more drinking. So at the age of 16. Sixteen years old my mom was just a fool like raging alcoholic to where it was so bad that she ended up going to rehab for almost a year. And at this time I was thinking about my career choice and the friends that those two boys that you know that I was hanging out with at the time their dad had become a firefighter. So I was trying to just busy myself and get away from home as much as possible because it was super hectic. You know I’m you know getting to be 17 years old and I’m just saying that I don’t want to be home because it’s just so broken right now. My moms constantly drinking just not word. No one was in a good place at home and on a stark contrast my friends parents they were they were great people everything seemed happy happy go lucky. And I would just and you know basically force and indoctrination upon myself to busy myself so the ministry became just busy work for me but also because his dad their dad was a firefighter. I was thinking about my career choice and I was like Well he’s he’s a firefighter and he’s he’s a ministerial servant. He can do it. So I ended up with my two friends. His sons becoming a firefighter. Explorers and while my mom was in rehab that’s how I I.

[00:56:41] I just consumed my mind was going into this fire academy with these kids and it was basically like military camp. So I think in the back of my mind it was a sense of structure. It was a sense of discipline and it just kept me preoccupied. So I I did as much busy work as possible just so as not to fill the ramifications of the emotions that I was going through at that time. Got to keep busy so that you can keep distracted from everything going on. Yeah. I’m sorry to hear that about your mom. That’s that’s tough. Yeah. Now you know looking back at it it just it it didn’t surprise me with the way that my mom raised us that she would ultimately break down you know and get to such a low point where you would require intervention and ultimately like I said she was she was gone for a good portion of a year in you know outside of our town in theL.A. area going through rehab and just to find out that after I graduated from that fire academy that while she was in rehab she started smoking. And her mindset changed about the organization and she she didn’t want to come back to live like I said my mom was. I became very successful and so my parents had multiple homes and they had just built like a you know 4000 square foot home. And this was all weighing on my dad. Now who who had his own business. But it wasn’t generating that type of income that my mom was. But they were basically living off of what my mom’s savings had accumulated too.

[00:58:25] And also selling off properties to sustain that lifestyle while she was away. So this was weighing heavily on my dad. My brother was so young at the time he didn’t know what was going on and for me I just I could see right through it that you know when my mom was away her her mindset change she would she would send me letters and I would just toss them I would throw them away because I was just so upset with her. And I didn’t want to talk or I didn’t talk to her the whole time that she was gone. And yeah. And I found out through my dad that she had started smoking cigarettes and that she told my dad that she didn’t want to come back home that she was going to go live go into sober living with some people obviously weren’t Joe’s witnesses. And Ryan by far the worst association if you know you’re Joves witness to consider ex addicts living together. And so my mom getting out of rehab you know my dad was saying you know you got to come back. Yes. She she ended up being you know my dad ended up telling her like you can’t you can’t do this to our family. You have to come back and you know help raise the children and take care of responsibilities and she said she basically gave him an ultimatum saying well if we’re gonna make this work then I don’t want to move back to you know the city that we’re living in. And she wanted to live by the beach.

[00:59:53] So Margaret my mom ended up getting a place out here and where I currently live. And it’s right by the beach and it was a place that we grew up coming to nice kids and ultimately in her mind it may made her happy in this. She just needed a fresh start. So mind you I’m still living in Palmdale. My parents have this huge house and multiple properties in there. They’ve moved out here now and I’m still kind of in the fire academy and doing things out there and I didn’t really want to move. You know this was home to me. Right right. So a lot of the times I just stayed with my friends family that I was going on service with all the time because that to me was a stable environment. You know looking back at it I just I would rather be there instead of deal with all the ups and downs of what my parents were going through and ultimately they would be out here living and I would have that huge house to myself. And it was so lonely that I would just go back to my friends house you know. But after that my parents were forced to sell the home just because they ran out of savings and that would be ultimately the time that I would move out to you know towards the beach area with my parents for you know like two years or so. So I hate that I don’t want to digress too much but I have to ask. I don’t want to take the focus off of you but your mom who after so she starts doubting things right that she believed were the truth because she got away from it.

[01:01:37] His rehab which is which is something that as soon as you said that my ears perked up because that I have found over and over with people that if they can just get away from the indoctrination for some reason for my wife and I it was because we owed a bunch of money in taxes and we had to work all the time to pay off this huge debt that we owed. And so it was that time away where we were like wait a minute this doesn’t all add up. It’s like your brain can finally process this stuff you’ve been brainwashed with. So in this case it was actually an alcohol and drug rehab then that helped her to start waking up. But did she. What was her. Did she continue. Did she go back to quote the truth. Did she go back to the witnesses or did she kind of fade away. See this is where the story gets interesting is because now you know like you said I firmly believe that being my case too is when you take a step back. You’re able to think for yourself. You start to re-evaluate scenarios and doctrine and you’re able to critically think on these topics. And I think what what was happening with my mom while she was in rehab was she’s meeting people from all over with all types of belief systems and ideas and they’re testing hers.

[01:03:05] And I think what she finally felt for the first time was that certain things that she was doing were ultimately not making her happy and that could very well been the case of why she was in the place that she was in perhaps Alesso. So you know after she got out of rehab and my parents you know made amends and came together to live by the beach there would be a period of you know a little over a year where my mom was really stagnant. She was really working on her sobriety. She was you know we’re in a new hall out here by the beach and she was just she didn’t fully throw herself back in but just little tidbits and hit her Miss kind of again. But as regular as possible. But once she realized that she had to get a better grasp on her sobriety. Like most addicts they throw themselves wholeheartedly into something else. And she went straight into full time pioneering after that man. And to this day she’s been a full time pioneer for 11 years I want to say no. Which just goes to show that a lot of religious zealous zealousness zealotry a lot of it is just addiction. I mean there’s. Yeah you can be addicted to a religion or an ideology and throw yourself into that. Just like you can any substance it’s just it’s a great way to escape and Jehovah’s Witnesses have built their own entire other alternate reality to escape into some yeah absolutely. No I believe with I believe that whole heartedly that that that is the case. I mean it’s not it’s not only with Jehovah’s Witnesses that’s with anybody with an addiction. You know you quit alcohol you had to fill that that need that constant want with something else whether that’s cigarettes that’s energy drinks coffee. You know it’s one thing you replace one thing with another.

[01:05:06] Yeah then justify why it’s better than what you were doing. Yeah absolutely. Well I’m sorry to hear that the path she ended up taking. I was hoping there was there was a certain freedom story there. Yeah I wish. Yeah yeah. That poll is pretty strong though back to that you know the indoctrination. Right. And I mean they just have so much to keep you busy and so much so that you don’t have to think well. So then. All right. So then back to your story where did you go from from there. You know you’re living with the other family kind of. Yeah. And you end up moving to the beach with your family again. How do things progress from there. So from there I’m still talking to that original girl you know that my my friends had introduced me to it was their cousin and it was it wasn’t the worst thing for me to move back out here. And she helped me to understand the girl that I was talking to which we would later start to date. And this would be actually the time that we would because she would you know tell me you know maybe it’s not such a bad thing because the beach is great and I was like Yeah that is true and she lived relatively close to where I would be living. It was only maybe a 30 minute drive as opposed to an hour and a half of where she lived when I lived you know in the desert right.

[01:06:28] So when I moved when I moved to the beach it was now a shorter distance to each other. And I was just like Well okay that makes sense. And you know I was still talking to her at the time. I mean I moved in with my parents and you know started to get used to the the current geisha out here and boy was that a change. You know there is a stark contrast difference between the congregation that essentially was born and raised in four 16 years of my life. One congregation which I just came to know you know it had been had like virtually 200 publishers in it. And when we moved out to the beach it was a small carnation that had 64 alive and yes so that was a big change and getting used to the demographic. They were all older individuals. Nobody my age. And so I would try my best you know and be Riegler just as much as my parents were because I was living in their same under the same house as them. But at this time my mom started to see the closeness that I was you know start to have with this this girl and she would later start to like really try to catch me doing something wrong you know cause she knew I was I was texting her and she was always curious about what it was. And we we she would like check my phone and text messages and stuff like that. And I remember specifically this girl ended up sending me. So I guess you can say some somewhat lewd pictures and my mom found them and and she would then convince me that this girl was not somebody I needed to be talking to.

[01:08:16] That it was hurtful essentially. So I I pretty much sabotage sabotage that relationship with that girl essentially because my mom wanted me to have nothing to do with her. And it was just kind of a weird devastating point in my life. Yeah I don’t know what you do with that. Yes that’s that’s tough. You know your first relationship and so many witnessed parents end up being you know they they don’t trust their kids and they end up spying on them with key loggers on their computers or going down their phones or going through their rooms. My mom did a lot of that stuff. It’s really sad the lack of trust that’s there. So you know you’re you’re not only losing your girlfriend here but you’ve got this weird dynamic with your mom too where she’s influencing you in that way and Gorakhpur your stuff. Yeah. It was at a weird age too because you know around 17 years old I have my own job. You know at the time I was working at Target and I I absolutely hated it. But you know in my mind I was like I’m a grown I’m starting to become a grown man and have my own body. You bought a car and had a job and was doing essentially independent things yet still being very micromanaged. And the reason was because I was living under their roof and my mom said as long as you’re living under our roof you will do exactly as you’re told and you know essentially dictating how things we’re going to be to. Oh yeah the theory.

[01:10:03] So I at that point in my head at that point in time when I ended up breaking things off with this girl and I saw how how rigid my mom was on certain things but very lax on others. But this is especially with herself. I really started to think like OK well if I’m being manipulated in this organization then I’m going to start to manipulate the situation and that at that point 17 17 years old I made it like a basically a pact with myself that I was going to start looking out for me and only me and start to do things for myself that were unbeknownst to my parents to make progress to get out from underneath them and do my own thing. So I only worked at Target for a couple of months and then I got introduced to a brother in the local area and I was invited to come to a barbecue. And at that barbecue you know he got to know me where were all sitting in the spine. This this guy’s in as you know he’s maybe 31 years old and he you know we go up to his house and it was a bunch of younger kids in it little you know a little older mix as well but they were all really cool people. You know they were all into surfing and skating all the stuff that I loved him. We were hanging out and we were at his house. And it was a it was a really nice house.

[01:11:35] And I asked him what he did and he said he did pools and he asked me what I did and I said I worked at Target and that you know kind of kind of shied away from you know letting him know what I did because I I wasn’t too proud of it. You know everybody needs a job but in my mind I didn’t want that one. So he’s like well you’re going to do that forever. And I didn’t really know how to take that at first but I said No no I just I gotta I gotta make money somehow and right there on the spot he offered me a job and I took him up on the offer and so I shadowed him for about a month to learn the ins and outs of the industry and being a service tech and basically a month after that he gave me 60 accounts to manage on my own so I went from making virtually minimum wage to you know almost 4000 dollars a month at 17 years old knife. So yeah. So and that that to me. That to me was it just like I said at that age before this had all happened I had made that pact in my mind that I was going to look after myself. I was going to be independent and start making decisions for myself. And when I started making that type of money it really just went straight to my head like I just wanted to get out of my parents house as quickly as possible. So once my mom was privy to the you know the amount of money that I was making at that agent at the time. You know my parents and it need the money. But she would say you know. You’re going to you’re going to start paying rent.

[01:13:11] And in my mind I was thinking like I just started making good money. Like why can’t I just save this. I’m doing everything that you’re asking of me. And maybe that was a little selfish on my end. And you know she was telling me that it’s part of responsibility and I totally understand that. But you know I cannot go to college. I can do this or that. So I just thought Why can’t I just say the civil nest egg or something like that and apply it to my future. But Yanagida sucks to that you know the first time you start to rise above the first time you start to rise up somebody has to be you know standing there with their hand. You know Riseley your own parents to be like hey you’re finally you know you’re stuck you’re starting to get ahead in this game. Whereas mapi. Yes. It’s the I feel good. No it doesn’t and especially not in my parents case. So interiorly is because my parents were still living off of savings from my mom and that was dwindling. And I knew that. So in my mind I just thought well are they just siphoning a little off the top for me because it would help them out. Sure am I upset about that kind kinda because I realize that you know technically I’m still not of age you know and there require me to pay rent because I’m making good money. I didn’t really fully comprehend that or agree with that but I did it regardless. Sure but only for a limited amount of time before I would realize that I had to make a change to get out.

[01:14:38] And the only way that I saw that was by moving out. So I started hanging out with people more and more coming home less and less. And that’s when I would ultimately meet what would become my wife. At like a gathering with some Jehovah’s Witnesses and that’s when that’s when the story even gets more interesting is when I met this woman. I was 18 years old now and almost immediately we started talking and dating. So we dated for 6 months and then we were engaged for 6 months before we got married. So and at that time I was just making those steps to become more and more independent. And I think that the way that the witnesses outlined freedom and how you’re supposed to do as an individual is find a mate. Get married and start living your own life in this organization. And so that’s that’s essentially what I did as she she at the time was spiritual. She was an ancillary pioneering and I thought perfect this all. This is a double whammy. She’s you know she’s gorgeous and she’s very spiritual it’ll make my parents happy because obviously the girl that I was interested in before did it and that kind of drove a wedge between our relationship to the point where I had to stop because it was just too much to bear. You know and deal with. So with this girl it was perfect because you know she was adored by many Yeah. That would definitely help. In contrast to the circumstances with the other girl you know. Yeah.

[01:16:31] I’m sure she was happy that you found this this this other sister who was as you said adored by many Soden. Right. So you guys get married and. And life is happily ever after right. I wish that was the case. Yes so we ended up getting married. It was it was a really beautiful wedding actually and you know a lot of the brothers and sisters came together to help us out on a ranch of some friends of the family that a really nice home. And there ended up being like almost 400 people at our wedding. And it was it was beautiful. It was great. In the end that was the first time I had really seen the unity with in the Jehovah’s Witnesses like they really do come together and now that I come to think of it it was almost more so a reason to come together and party because there were so many elders paying years really faithful people at our wedding that you know looking back at the wedding video they were all completely sassed you know and I was very appreciative that they helped us out in so many ways with getting that you know preparing for the wedding. Right. And essentially it’s like the one and only time. Witnesses can kind of get unruly and out of hand so yes they look forward to it as much as anybody else. Yes. When you only have one thing to celebrate in life which is a wedding I mean there’s what else do witnesses celebrate. There isn’t much. So yeah yeah. So that that’s your time to show out. Right. Yeah.

[01:18:10] And so you know at the wedding I am you know I vowed to dedicate myself to this woman and I absolutely meant it. And I don’t think she fully understood and I wasn’t ready to divulge how I truly felt about things spiritually. And you know I was doing everything by the books you know as well as closely as possible and proving to people that I was a good association. I was doing my best while still maintaining a you know a full time job and more importantly wanting to provide for this woman. I wanted to give her anything that she would ever want because I that’s just what I wanted to do. I wanted to give it to somebody and. But she didn’t fully understand me and I didn’t fully understand her. Like we had basically only known each other for a year and before we decided to dedicate ourselves to each other so and we were so young and so young and naive and. But regardless you know we tried you know the our best to make it work in the first couple of years obviously for any marriage. It’s going to have its highs and lows its ups and downs but we did do our best. And you know there was there was a lot of good times that came out of trying to figure out navigate spirituality with another person. And this was the early days when I would start to just kind of throw tidbits of questions in. What do you think about this the research and this or that. My my wife at the time was somebody who was very reserved with her her beliefs like she would say well this is how I feel. That’s that.

[01:19:47] Like there’s no real sway like even if I don’t understand it it’s just what we do. And to me you know I wouldn’t really speak out about it because I don’t want to offend her or anybody to get an idea that I might be questioning things. So I really internalized everything and kept everything to myself for a good majority of the years that we were married. So yeah it was just it was it was a real interesting time to say the least. Yeah that’s it. That’s a heck of a strain on a marriage when you have this giant thing between you. Now is this religion that is is it just part of your life but is your life and is your identity. And then you know you don’t necessarily fully believe and your partner clearly fully believed. Right. She was all in so even if she didn’t understand which is the case with a lot of witnesses I think a lot of them don’t really even know what they believe. They just know that that’s what they’re supposed to believe absolutely and that was something that I had to come to terms with for myself and I could only imagine that anybody that can think introspectively or is it concerned about their own well-being would eventually come to that conclusion of starting to question things whether it’s good or bad it’s going to eventually lead to you know the process of evaluating or re-evaluating your situation. And what I what I notice even with my wife is that even you know being approached with the slightest of questioning they write it off like well we might not know this but that’s okay because we don’t have to.

[01:21:31] We do see the fundamentals and that’s good enough. And you know I might not be happy or understand it now but we will when the new scrolls come out or in the new system you know everything will be OK. And it’s like that’s not how my mind worked. And it would it would evidently become more and more you know increasingly obvious that those answers weren’t good enough for me. And so like I said I was doing Pooles at the time I was working for somebody else kind of as like a subcontractor now and. And that guy that initially gave me the job. He ended up retiring in his mid mid 30s and moving moving out of state. And he I told him when I had started working for him if there was any. Like if he decided to sell his business to give me first dibs at it. And I don’t know what I was thinking. I didn’t have the money set aside for that. Now he’s married. You know I had responsibilities and priorities. I didn’t have the savings that I could you know hey you get paid for the business or get a loan or whatever I was still really young. But when he decided to retire and move away he took into consideration how hard I worked for him. And he approached me and said that he he would sell me a portion of his business. And I said why would I would love to do that man. But I just I don’t have the funds.

[01:23:01] I’m I’m not going to get a loan like it just doesn’t make sense for me right now and he actually allowed me over time to pay it off. So what I did was I mean I cut him a check every month which was quite substantial for almost two years until I paid I paid it off. Then I owned I owned it outright. So that’s how I ended up acquiring my own business out of his he. Did you right because that could have gone out that could have gone a lot worse. Absolutely. And I still I still think him to this day you know and he really he really did me a favor because I never ended up finishing high school because at 17 years old like I said I was still doing the independent study program and going through the process of school and they kept you know I had transferred three different schools between where I used to live and to the beach and then at the beach at another school and they kept messing up on my credit. And I was making good money at that time. And I just thought to myself These people aren’t even doing their job. And this is time out of my day. I’m working full time. I’m running you know essentially a business in high school. And these people don’t know how to do their job. I’m not going to redo this work. And it was just a waste of my time. So in my mind I thought I don’t need a piece of paper to tell me who I am or who I’m going to become. And I was kind of strong headed about it but I ended up walking away and just diving into my business.

[01:24:29] And in the end it was for the better in my opinion. So I’m sure it would have been easy to be disillusioned when you’re. You seem to be doing better than the people who who are in charge of this education that are struggling to get things you know the basic things straight with your credit. Right. Yeah. It a little difficult for me to understand that you know and maybe that’s just a sign of where the school system’s at. But I saw right through it too and I just was like You know honestly this is you know in my personal opinion at a certain point high school just becomes more social and there is no social aspect of school for me at all. So I was like hey man this makes zero sense for me I just need to focus some itself. So then. So now you’re married and you’ve got this business you’ve got it paid off. And you’ve also got these doubts. So how does this end up progressing. Well the doubts started progressing more and more you know they became increasingly worse and worse over the years. But I still internalized it because I knew how my wife would act. I knew how my parents would approach it. You know I can never have a you know a debate with my father over doctrine because he himself didn’t really ever dive into it to fully understand it. It was just something he did as well. And the times that I would have you know debates are you know talks with my mom about doctrine.

[01:25:59] She was extremely vague and there was a lot that she didn’t know either and which was confusing because somebody who is a full time pioneer and she had been for some years at this time you would think that she’d be able to you know uphold the truth and its doctrine to the slightest amount of scrutiny. And that just wasn’t the case. So I kept getting the runaround and I wasn’t really expressing too much of what I was getting into with other people with my wife because I didn’t want her to worry about it. I didn’t want her to think that my fake faith was wavering in that sense. But I wanted answers I wanted clarification because I got to a point where I was like well the Bible says to make the truth your own. And I never had that opportunity. So I’m kind of doing things in reverse. I’m going back to square one. I want answers. And so after a couple of people I’ve talked to a couple of elders about certain topics my mom my mom Ben referred me to my grandfather. You know my dad’s dad who had been an elder for 30 plus years now at this time and we got into a lot of debates and some heated arguments and it wasn’t on my end it was on the end of my grandfather being upset that I came across information that didn’t coincide with the doctrine or the books or the publications that the organization produces so if anybody does any outside research that’s considered apostate research and it goes directly against the organization.

[01:27:28] And so my grandfather at a certain point said that he would have nothing to do with our discussions because of the fact that I was debating him with apostate research and we were talking about the the littlest things as far as the beginning of their religion. You know I don’t want to talk about that. No I don’t. Although I went I went all the way back to the founder you know talking about Charles Russell and getting into his life before you know all the way back into the late 80s hundreds and asking my grandfather did you know this and that and this and he’s like those things are true and I said well how do you know these and he’s like it we have all that information here. I forget the Big Green Book the Harmers book or the Yeah. One of the Insight yeah the insight book. And I read that thing back to back and I said and I highlighted things and I said it says it right here some of the things that I’m touching on. And he said Yeah they sure you know looking the best they could. But we have to. He’s like keep in keep in mind that this was the infancy of the Christian carnation and you know things have progressed and blah blah blah there’s oh it is a cop out there’s always a cop out. Yeah yeah. And it’s never it’s never an answer it’s always kind of a defense mech mechanism for you to just get exhausted about going round and round to where you just move on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s exactly what I saw with my grandfather and it got to the point where we were talking about what’s his name.

[01:29:03] Robert Rutherford Yeah yeah we’re talking about Rutherford and how you know I ask him about Beths or him. You know this was a place this is a place in San Diego where he thought it would be wise for him to own a mansion while we’re in the we’re in go into the cold war you know or the Depression the Great you had the great depression rather. And he’s live in this extravagant lifestyle in his cop out for doing that you know driving Cadillacs around and having this mansion was that this was a place that the patriarchs or princes would be able to become resurrected and come back and have a place to stay. So we have you know the leader of this organization living this lavish lifestyle off of the precious voluntary donations. I don’t even necessarily call him voluntary donations that people give to this organization to sustain its printing. Yet these these funds are being used illegitimate and for the benefit the benefit of his lifestyle. And it was just a slap in the face of people at that time where they were just people were starving you know. And and this and this is supposed to be God’s God’s. One note only mouthpiece the true organization. It just even from the infancy it was it was just so corrupt on so many levels. I can see now that it just and it makes sense how it progressed and all of the false predictions and you know my my grandfather just started shaking his head and saying that I sure had changed and I’m headed down a real scary path because you as you heard the you know what you were getting involved in.

[01:30:46] So it’s so sad that these people have devoted their entire lives and are so ego weakened and their identity is wrapped up in this thing that they don’t see and they don’t even know what it is. I learned more about the organization devoted my life to four decades and the two years after I left I ever knew when I was in it. Absolutely because you’re looking at it with a critical mind this time and it’s not necessarily that you’re looking for flaws but you’re looking for answers. Yeah. You’re looking for where things don’t absolutely make sense where you can make sense of it and we live in the age of technology it’s 2000 18. You know I think that that organization is like people that live in a town and only read that one newspaper. That’s the publication of The Watchtower Bible Tract Society is they only read those publications as fact and they never take their opportunity or the time to look at outside resources because they are told that that’s apostate literature and that’s not the case and you know the Internet is a place where it’s a cumulative mind a mass census so we’re able to determine what’sB.S. and what’s not based off of the massive Jocketty mindset. And so when you have X amount of people agreeing that this and this isn’t okay and this is correct then that’s just the facts I’m sorry but people don’t allow themselves to open their mind or to do that external research because they’re just so indoctrinated and they know how it’s going to look to others so they don’t do it.

[01:32:23] Oh yeah and they get comfortable with their beliefs you know and you don’t want anyone to question something you’re so comfortable with because it hurts now and you can’t. You can’t tolerate that pain because you you’re comfortable you don’t want to change you’ve been you know you’ve devoted so much of your life it’s sunk cost and you don’t want to change. So yeah. So you know you’re talking to your grandpa you’re you’re having these conversations that clearly aren’t going well. You’ve already been through it with your mom and dad. So where do how does this bill how does it build off this. So so backing up a little bit. So yeah basically it’s around the same time I was I was doing all of this debating with my grandfather and some of the brothers within the organization and a lot of my free time. I would ride dirt bikes like I was born and raised riding their bikes and stuff like that. And I remember going to basically a practice on the track out here in the local area and I ended up injuring my back really bad in compressing three vertebrate fracturing one in an accident. And at the time I was doing all of this you know debates with people and it wasn’t it wasn’t being argumentative and I say that in the slightest of terms as being a conversation of let’s figure this out you know and I have a question can you answer it. Well you know it has to be a debate with Brive. They’re not they can’t have a conversation. Right. There’s no end so yeah.

[01:34:03] So going through that I was going through that and once I got this back injury I had to go to the doctor they highly suggested that I did surgery. I cannot do that because I was the sole proprietor of this business and operator so I couldn’t take any time off. So I had to manage my pain. I was prescribed all of the all of these prescriptions like we’re talking Norco Soma Purkiss that you know Viken like the whole gamut because some of them didn’t work on me some did it then stopped working. And what I saw was they were you know extremely addictive and they definitely made me feel not myself. Like almost out of body kind of in a haze and not focused driven anymore than it was it was evident so at the time I was trying to make a transition where I thought like I was still going to pursue the fire career. Because owning my business I had enough free time to do more studies. So I went to OEM’s EMT school. And during this time in the program I was introduced to one of the instructors and we we got to talking about injuries and this and that pharmaceuticals because we were studying pharmacology and stuff like that. And he said he he said laughingly like oh ho ho ho why would anybody take these prescription drugs. He’s like well they just smoke a joint or something like that to that effect. And that was the first time I ever thought like really considered the use of marijuana or anything like that as a medicinal. I just always was told that it was you know the gateway drug that led you in to any other drug that you can think of.

[01:35:53] Mind you at this time I’m just dosed to the max on all of these prescription drugs. And so going to the school the schooling system you know he said that jokingly but he was kind of serious obviously so I did a lot of research and I looked into it and I realized that there was a lot of medicinal value in cannabis use. So yeah. So I mean people be people can have their view about it just like anything else. But what I saw in the greeting card Dacian was all of these elders wives elders themselves but especially the elders wives you know some of them would come to the Keenum also conked out. It was very evident that they were on prescription medication like pain meds where sometimes they when they were speaking it was you can even understand what they’re saying you know and these are the most spiritual people in the current Dacian people you should be looking up to that are on these prescription drug drugs. And it’s clearly evident. So when I decided for me you know that I wanted to try this. I didn’t tell anybody and this would go on for years. So I dropped all the pain pills and prescription pills and I would start using medicinal marijuana. And I got my my my recruit my license and all of that unbeknownst to my wife unbeknownst to my family no one knew. And I wanted to keep that way that way because I wanted to prove a point. It was yet the point that I wanted to make was it’s clearly evident that these people are using this drug these drugs these prescription drugs alcohol.

[01:37:33] I want to be under the mindset that I want to do something that helps me. And if it helps me great I’ll keep using it and it will end if it becomes evident to others then that is when you might have an issue. Right. So I started using it for years three years. In fact before I would even mention it to my wife because I eventually just felt guilty. You know my conscious just didn’t allow me to keep that from her any longer. But for three years she had no idea that I used it almost on a daily basis. I was running a very functional business that was growing each year. So there were no negative repercussions. We were very regular. And you know the ministry I was reading from the stage you know I had privileges. And once I told her that that’s what I was doing I mean I was shocked shock to her to have felt like I was keeping something from her. And I totally get that because I probably would have had the same feeling like wow that’s that’s kind of a big thing. Why wouldn’t you mention it but to me I wanted to prove something to myself first. Was it wasn’t it. If it was evident to somebody they would know and find out. And then it would be an issue. But I was able to manage it appropriately to where no one was the wiser. You know what I’m saying. Right. And like I said my conscious got the best of me and I felt like I was withholding some pretty important information from my wife to know.

[01:39:00] So once I let her know that that kind of started eating at her and she thought like oh I don’t know. I think I don’t think so and I try to show her all the research that I had found and where in the Bible doesn’t say anything about it. You know if we’re going to base our lives around the Bible then that’s it. Read the good book and see where it says not to. Go ahead. So you know and there’s a scripture in the Bible that said God gave every seed bearing fruit to mankind to enjoy it. So that’s how I justified it. Which was well you know if we’re gonna take the Bible literally this is how I literally perceive it. And I didn’t really care how anybody else did and nor was I you know asking anybody at that point. But my my wife ended up started feeling real guilty that I was hiding this from the conversation and I had privileges and she essentially wanted to go to the elders about two things at this time. She thought that we were we were like grieving God’s Holy Spirit we were lacking God’s Holy Spirit because at this time we started having more and more arguments at just about finances just life itself. It was very evident that you know with the relationship we have ups and downs but her mindset was when we have our downs that’s because we’re spiritually weak. We need to go talk to the brothers. Oh yeah yeah. So she used number one my marijuana usage as a catalyst.

[01:40:23] And number two there was a little bit of fooling around that we had done before we got married and she thought that we were grieving God’s Holy Spirit because we were keeping them from the Christian creation and the brothers. So not only did we get drug in to a judicial committee for what both me and my wife at the time had done prior to us getting married. But also the fact that I was using marijuana so it was just compounded so it wasn’t a good time to do both at once. But in my mind I was like well let’s knock it out of the park and I’m I’m not going to just bow down and say I’m going to stop but I’m going to try to prove a case. So we got our you know at this time we got privately reproves for what we had done prior to us getting married. But in that meeting we also mentioned the marijuana use and it wasn’t really that big of a deal. You know they really didn’t really touch on it. They shared a couple of scriptures and it was very vague and we left thinking like we left there thinking like well they didn’t touch on it too much and my wife was like yeah you know. But I still think that you should stop. So I did that for almost a year which was I just I stopped using it. And I was like well let’s see if things get better and with my with my pain it only got worse. It was basically the reason my used it was to go to sleep and stop tossing and turning. Get some good night’s sleep.

[01:41:59] And what I realized was like my health was starting to suffer suffer because I was only getting four hours of sleep every night. And so I started using again I told my wife after that time of not using it. I said I tried you know I tried to do prescription pills. I tried to stop and I found the best results while doing this. And you have to understand that it just works for me. You know something might work for me but maybe not for others. And I said the way that I look at it these chemical pills that are drive by man are way more harmful than something that’s natural. And they can still be managed appropriately. So once I kind of got on board with that she was OK with it. And that was pretty much it. And then the brother we got called back in to a meeting for the marijuana use. And this was because I still had privileges and at the time you still have privileges even though you run against the primary proof wouldn’t take those away. Yeah you’re right. Yeah I mean I guess that can differ from some some halls. But you know I was still saying there might have been a slight period of time where we didn’t have our commenting by Natomas. Yeah. After. I don’t know maybe five months it almost went back to normal like nothing had happened. Yeah. So you know I was reading the Watchtower saying prayer and stuff like that and helping with my ex and stuff like that. But after we went back to the brothers about them I want to use this is the original Hall that my parents moved us to when we came to the beach.

[01:43:41] So now it’s my family in that hall and me and my new wife in this hall. And we’re dealing with that committee about this marijuana use and virtually at the end of the day they’re like OK well there there are some people that do use it for medicinal purposes. Do not tell anyone about it. And you know everything was fine everything was fine. We left that meeting. They were under the assumption that I would be using it still it wasn’t an issue if I didn’t make it one. And I was happy I was I was ecstatic because it really truly did help me. And I felt like wow. I took a stand for something and you know it’s all working out. Then we start to associate with more friends in another congregation in the same town and they kind of sway us because we we were we were thinking about moving and this is when the circuit overseer came and said If you live here and you live in this this territory and your hall falls in this area you need to go to that hall. So he was basically driving and everybody said like if you live on the other side of town and you’re going to another hall on the other side of town that it’s not okay you need to go to the hall that is within your territory. Right. So we ended up moving to a different area down by the beach.

[01:45:00] We got a house down by the beach and now we were in that territory where all of our friends that we were making were they were our age because like I said that hall that we were in it was a bunch of old people nobody really to associate with. So we moved we moved halls and now I start to double down on my spirituality because things are on the up and up. The business is good. We got a house down by the beach. It was like literally five homes from the sand. And I’m like OK I got free time I start going to service more. We know we’re at this new home trying to you know make an impression and at a certain point that’s all it was. Now that I think about it about making advancements spiritually for me was always an image thing and how generalizations are based on image. Yeah and how people people perceive you you know and it’s often face value in a person. And so you know I was mean on the up and up. We were going to service more and just a couple of months into being at that new hall we decide to around Memorial season pioneer early Godzilla pioneer. And so we’re doing that and it took almost seven months for them to transfer my cards. Mine and my wife’s cards. Like a little less under two miles from one current geishas to the other. Yeah. And so when the cards finally came in there was a note on there of my marijuana use. Oh yeah. So I’m outside. We’re outside after meeting for field service and we’re out in front of the hall just kinda talking to some other friends making arrangements to the two of the others approach me and say you know they pull me aside and they want to talk to me.

[01:46:48] So my wife kind of looks at me funny and like I look at her like I don’t know what we’ll see. And so they pull me aside and they say you knowD.J. so we we got your cards in. That’s a good thing. And I was like wow yeah it is. That took a while. Like yeah we apologize for that. But what we did find when those cards were transferred is that it mentioned something about marijuana use and they said they didn’t ask me. They just said so you’re not doing that anymore. Right. They just assumed that I would have found my way to the right decision in their mind which was not to use it. Right. And I said No I’m still using it like it’s I made it evidently clear in the last you know I had a judicial committee about it and made it very clear in the last carnation that this would be an ongoing thing and everything was fine. And the brother specifically said not in my home. And I remember I remember that being the first thing the first moment from then on forward where I would start to throttle back on my spirituality because I was just you know I don’t get offended at all. It’s it’s it’s virtually impossible to offend me. I don’t even know how to put this or what words would be best fitting but I just couldn’t believe what had come out of this.

[01:48:11] Elders you know Malph because he was the Kobie of the carnation the presiding overseer basically the head honcho in charge and what I saw was these brothers perceive it to be in their hall. You know they’re there the managers of it. They’re the rucking you know they’re the boss hog. And I saw right through what he had said and it just did not sit well with me. And it wasn’t. Let’s get together and talk about it. It was not in my home which was clearly evident. He did not want to talk about it because he had a certain stance on it and he was not willing to waver or debate about it. So after that I told my wife what was going on. And she’s like don’t let it get you down like just only you and Jehovah know what works best for you and if it doesn’t bother you it doesn’t. You know it obviously doesn’t bother me anymore. Just do your thing and that would like I said be really the first thing where I would actively start throttling back on my my spirituality. So that was a big issue that I first started to have. So after that you know I stopped I stopped I mean I still was going to meetings regularly. Don’t get me wrong. It was just. Well I’m not going to do the extracurricular things I’m going to focus on my business. I’m gonna make all my meetings but I’m not going to I’m not going to be searching for any privileges. And I’m also not going to be going out in service more than I asked you to say quote unquote regular.

[01:49:39] So from that point it was just my head down my tail between my legs and I was just doing it as a formality to keep my wife happy and my parents. So yeah sounds like they didn’t offend you they just kind of took the wind out of your sails. Yeah. This kind of motivated you. Yeah because I couldn’t really fully understand how somebody can be so arrogant about such a touchy topic and not want to discuss it and just assume that they know better than they did. They proved that it was merely authoritarian. That’s what it was about. It was absolutely. Here you go. I’m the voice of authority. And I just told you no. And now you’re going to fall in line. Right. And I would definitely like to see. And you know I would see their point of view if there was an evident change in my personality my lifestyle. Sure. My this or that. And that was you know I hid it from everyone for years. So that was clearly evident that it wasn’t an issue. Oh but no one knows. Yeah yeah exactly. And if and if Jehovah knew then why was life going according to plan in my mind. Yes so that was that like I said you know. And from that point on I just kind of stuck to myself and did just the bare minimum to keep you know quote unquote regular and then I really had an issue like I started to have an issue with well what else is a gray area. Because I wanted to have facial hair for the longest time and I never really questioned or debated that as well.

[01:51:12] And I’m totally not the type of person that would do something out of spite of attention or wanting that type of attention. You know what I’m saying. Yeah. Yeah. But now we’re getting to the point where I was starting to miss more and more meetings. And me and my wife were getting along as well because of my perception of what the organization started to become in my mind. So I told her like I just don’t think it’s absolutely necessary that I need to go out in service every weekend or X amount of hours or do extracurricular things. And it started driving a wedge in our relationship at that time. So for me I was just like you know whatever I started growing a little bit of scruff. And I’ve always had really sensitive skin too. But that was 100 percent not the reason why I wanted to grow a beard it’s just for the longest time I always wished I could I just never understood why we couldn’t so because I don’t have another. Right. Right. So because I started going less and less to the hall. You know I started to grow this scruff and you know I come to what we come from work with scruff on my face in work clothes and I get those comments like you know brother scratching my chin like what’s this. It’s like I look down and I’m clearly in my work clothes. And that’s how it started and once I saw how much of a issue was was just like I don’t care I just started growing a beard and this included me just going to meetings with.

[01:52:45] It wasn’t a full full on beer like it is now but it was evident that it was a well. Well trimmed you know and kept the beard and that was an issue. And you know I got pulled aside and say well this this and this can’t happen for you knows that we’re doing that. And I said Well I’m not really reaching out to do those things so it doesn’t really apply to me. Don’t you think. And so I started to get a little bit more sarcastic with the brothers because I didn’t. I started to lose respect for them and the the way that they would approach things like you should know better or I know better. And that’s just that. And that’s not a bad right. You know settle well with me. So getting further along in my I guess my spiritual digression was me eventually I’m going to less and less meetings and telling my wife like there’s just some things. You know I started studying doctrine and mind you I hadn’t started doing any outside research really for that. Other than like you know finding more information about Russell or Rutherford that was about it. That was the gist of what outside resources that I would do on Google. Right. And I still didn’t touch any other information outside I really don’t. Into more of a doctrine. So when my wife would go to meetings I would stay at home in my office and get some work done. And while she was still gone instead of just watching TV which we didn’t have TV the whole time we were married.

[01:54:21] I would just stay in my office and do research within the organizations publications I get old publications from you know that they stopped printing and wanted to fade out because they were some misguided doctrine and they were trying to make sure that the public didn’t see what had been written before and stuff like that. And I was really diving in to what they had produced what they had published and things were just starting to fall apart for me within their own writings. Oh yeah. And that’s how it all started for me to eventually cease all meeting attendance service everything and you know really start growing a little bit of a longer beard. And I saw an immediate drop off with people stopping stopping associating with me. My parents started acting differently towards me. And especially my wife. That was the hardest part was we had multiple conversations about our spirituality and I’m not the man that she had met and I said I apologize about that. You’re absolutely right. You know there’s a lot of things that I was doubting even from the beginning that I should have been upfront and honest with you. But it was just too say this is too sensitive of a subject back then and you know it was just a lot to deal with. But now that I’m a little bit more established I have free time I get to dedicate that free time. However I see fit and I wanted answers and the answers that we’re finding were not sufficient enough for me to dedicate my time or devotion to this organization any longer. To the extent that they want and she lost a lot she lost all if not most all respect for me.

[01:56:06] Once I took that Stampfer just saying I doubt a lot of things I’m not going to meetings anymore with you. She would hold over my head like I stopped doing family study with her and she was like this at the very least that you can do with me and I said you know what if there’s one thing that the organization has taught me as it says to make the truth your own. And I said you should be doing that yourself because I’m doing that. And this is the resolve that I’m finding and it’s not that I don’t support you in what you want and what you would like to be doing but you should see my side of it and do the same for me which is I’m not pushing you down the path that I’m going in nor should you be doing the same to me. And at the end of the day this has no they should have no factor bearing on our relationship. This should be our own personal resolve with our spirituality. But that’s what the relationship is built on when you want to Jehovah’s Witnesses. Yeah. It’s one of the main chords very seriously. And that that that to me was the most devastating part was it was how the organization drives in two married couples lives that Jehovah comes first. And and at the end of the day if that’s what you believe in and you need that you know that driving force to make things make sense to you by all means. But at a certain point I realized that that is absolutely not the truth. Your family comes first.

[01:57:31] And most importantly your mate so in my mind I just thought well she’s not going to be accepting of how I view this religion and my mindset and my stance that I’m taking. So I’m going to go full force into my business. And that’s exactly what I did. I wanted to provide for her more and more. And like show her like look I’m not falling apart just because I have a difference of beliefs. If anything we’re become better and it wasn’t a more open meaning to be a materialistic thing but it was letting her know that you know I’m not falling apart you know I’m driven. I have a mindset and I wanted to prove that to her. Well yeah actually you know what you had said before too in addition to that was that she saw that when things weren’t going well for you guys she saw that as a lack of Holy Spirit. You know if you dive into your business and your business is doing well there’s Jehovah blessing you now. Right. You know it’s funny that you say that because that’s exactly how I perceived it which was if I was being if I was grieving God’s Holy Spirit and I was acting directly against what he commands us then why why why is it within the year the first year of me stop stop going to or attending meetings rather My business grew 50 percent in one year. So this was something that was clearly evident that was not the case because I always lived my life with the assumption that if I’m not doing exactly what I’m told things will just fall apart.

[01:59:07] And that’s not the case what the case was is when you actually use your mind and dedicate yourself to something and you have that driving force and you stick to it. It will always work out you know the better. And people can’t get people in the organization can’t understand that they just they throw caution to the wind and they throw up their hands and say well I’m going to let Jehovah take care of me. And they pray. You know it’s just hop out it is it is and it’s it’s OK it’s just stopped making sense for me. And I wanted to prove that to my wife you know. You know without words which is like well look tell me that I’m doing wrong. Right. And it still was never good enough for her. She you know she just wanted a spiritual head. And I get that and I can’t fault her for something like that because if she if that’s something that she ultimately thought I was then that was my fault. But what I can not get over was the fact that it was the determining factor or the make or break for our relationship because it got to the point where she just didn’t respect me at all. She would say disparaging comments to me about it to other people embarrassing things that were private. And yet. Yeah. And I think in her mind she justified it because she wanted to make me look bad to others even though even if others looking outside in would see that that wasn’t the case I was doing just fine not going but she would throw these little tidbits in to make me look kind of bad in a certain way.

[02:00:44] And you know I think she just did that out of a defense mechanism for her own sanity. But at the end of the day you know it wasn’t fair and you know it got to the point with our relationship where we stopped having any intimate relations with each other. And and it was because she just I can tell that she just never was into it anymore. And I after after about a year and a half of you know very hit and miss intimacy huge gaps in between you start to really question why am i even with this person. And that’s that’s when things started to really fall apart for our our relationship is she. She dove more into it and I drove more out of it. Yeah. And I think it was a bit of stubbornness on both of our parts. And so when she would dove more into it I dove more out of it. We were almost living separate lives at this point because she was just so dated with spiritual things. And I was initiated with you know pursuing other business opportunities and my business that are already in preexisting business and household projects like we were on completely different schedules. We would virtually just eat together. And it got to the point where we just barely saw each other so. And now we’re to the point where I’m questioning like why are we even together like if we could have made this work. You know I’m trying over and over like this.

[02:02:23] I’ll accept you for who you are just accept me for who I am and it just wasn’t ever good enough and I remember distinctively that what was it I think 2000 in 15 I was sitting at a bar waiting for one of my other friends to show up in this friend was a lifelong childhood friend. And he was he was born and raised in the new organization too. But he he started to have doubts like me too. So we would kind of have our own little secret meetings and just yeah and we would we would just talk about doctrine and this or that. What did you hear on this podcast and by and he was kind of like my outlet you know. Yeah. Which was somebody who I can share a mindset with of understanding of how the faith system works. This organization and the doubts that you could possibly have in why you can justify those things. So as I’m waiting for him to come have a beer with me. It was at a local bar in my my neighborhood I’m sitting there waiting for him and I get approached by this woman and she said Do you have a couple of minutes. I’d like to interview for something. And I said I mean what is it. I was kind of weird I was like What is this in regards to you. And she’s like well and she sits down and she has an iPod and she’s like I worked for you know like a commercial agency or this or that. And it only take three minutes of your time and in my mind I was like yeah whatever lady like whatever. But I was just too nice and I was just like sure whatever let’s do this.

[02:04:02] So she asked me all these questions and Bombon at the end she’s like I’m I know that you might think of it this is weird but I’m literally a talent scout. And I think that you would fit this role that we’re looking for. And I was just like OK like whatever so I give her my e-mail address I don’t think much of it. And you know two weeks later I get an e-mail saying that that she passed along that footage because she had a guy with a camera and passed along my footage of the interview to one of her superiors and that they would like me to come to a casting call. So unlike I went from sitting on a bar getting interviewed by this lady thinking she was crazy to and possibly being in some light commercial or something and I’m thinking well this is cool like that. I’m thinking like well why not. Like I have the extra free time you know while my wife still her thing like Why not try to see where this goes. And I remember getting an e-mail and I ended up eventually going to that casting call and it was for a Chevy commercial. And we do basically I get selected we do the shoe and then they air it nationally. And I was so stoked on it because I was just like this is so cool this is so Raddy was so random. I was excited for it and I was like telling my wife about it and she she just wasn’t having it like you could tell that she was just faking the funk. Yeah that’s that’s cool like. Because I was already going down a path that was making me more happy. Yeah.

[02:05:41] Like one thing after the other would be happening where these were opportunities that if I was grieving God’s Holy Spirit then why was everything being handed to me. Because it was just drawn in here. And that exactly and that’s and that’s exactly how my parents and her perceived it which was you know this is how it happens this is what you’re doing and blah blah blah. And so after after her not being like supportive of it I remember just being really bummed like man this was a cool opportunity for me and I was just really stoked on it and I would have hoped that you would have been at least somewhat excited you know with me and I wasn’t getting that from her. And so after that we are. Our relationship is just starting to go further further downhill and you know we’re living more and more separate lives and I ended up needing another girl through. Mind you this is another Jehovah’s Witness through a buddy who was another jobs witness as well down south. And I would go hang out with this buddy every now and then because it was just kind of an outlet like if I wanted to get away while you know my wife was with her super spiritual family in another town I would just go down south and hang out the beach with a buddy that I knew from down there. He was also a witness. I met you know one of his friends which was another sister in the organization. And then we started having more and more contact with each other.

[02:07:18] And at first it just started out with you know just random you know social media like laughing sending stuff and then it turned into more of a conversation. And I got I started getting to know this person and I looking back on it I think I was just trying to fill the void that I didn’t have any more with my wife where I was just like Yeah this this happened this was cool and you know I’m looking forward to doing this and that and you know just just random stuff. And then over time you know we started to develop I guess more and more of a relationship and I stopped and I thought to myself well this isn’t this isn’t right. Obviously like there was a real turning point where it turned into wow this person just kind of like filling my void of conversation that I don’t have with another woman which would have been my wife. And now this other girls giving me this attention and really interested in what I’m saying and vice versa. We’re in where we have a lot in common. Yeah. And then somewhere in between it turns you know somewhat romantic to where she’s wanting to like hang out and stuff like that I might not like that. This is not going to happen baba. And for a while I just wrote it off like there’s no way like I’m just go hang out with her. But mind you this is at a time in my relationship where me and my wife are virtually not talking. We were we were roommates at best. I was sleeping in my office for three months before it got to this point with this other lady.

[02:09:02] And it got to the point where I sat down my wife and I told her listen our intimacy has to change your view of where my spirituality has to change and you just have to understand that that’s just not where I want to be. But that does that should not affect our relationship together I want to make this work. This and that and she would she would say that she wanted to but she would never take the necessary actions to change. And I got to a point in my mind where I was just like I I can’t do this anymore you know. And I decided too that I was going to leave. I was going to leave her and then I wasn’t even necessarily thinking about this other girl that I was talking. I just was like well how am I going to do this. You know jobs when they’re told like once you’re married. The only way that you can remarry is if there is infidelity. And I thought well I was so upset with the organization at this point because of all of the judicial meetings and the vague understandings and there are vague answers rather in the way that my wife was starting to treat me because of my lack of spirituality not my lack of taking care of her. I was really upset how it just threw my life into a downward spiral mentally. And so I was just like well if if that’s how they want to play the game then that’s Harmon go out and so with this girl that I had been talking to. We ended up sleeping together and started a relationship.

[02:10:38] And I know my wife ended up finding out it told her what had been happening and she wanted to make it work. And mind you this relationship with this girl wasn’t even to the extent where I was just like oh I’m going to be with this girl for the rest of my life. It was the conversation had gotten to the point where me and her were under the understanding that we didn’t want to be Jehovah’s Witnesses anymore. And that’s a really weird place to be with somebody who is a Jehovah’s witness in the organization and you’re speaking to another one with kind of the same mindset of how can we get out of this. And I told her Well if I if I sleep with another person that in my mind was me doing my wife a favorite because number one it got me out immediately. It was just like the nail in the coffin and it allowed her squirt scriptural freedom to remarry. Yeah because a lot of people don’t start with jobs when he says that is the only way that scripturally a spouse can remarry and live another life with a happy life in that social construct or religion or that organization of they can never have another relationship for the rest of their lives. Right. You have a sexual relationship with someone else and it is admitted if you can get that if you keep that on the down low for the rest of your life and no one ever knows that your wife would have been stuck for eternity. Well yeah. However long life is you know not being able to ever marry again simply because of that. Yeah.

[02:12:17] And this was something that was not just a heat of the moment like passionate no idea or action. This was very very very methodical on my part. Now we’re talking about two years of a period where I tried everything that I could do with making it work with my wife maybe not spiritually but everything else under the sun. And just because of the sheer fact that I wasn’t the spiritual head that she wanted my whole my whole life went in a downward spiral as far as our relationship is concerned and I added get to the point where I was like well why are we together. I have different pursuits and goals and aspirations and so do you. And I got to this place that like I said it was very methodical on my part I thought well I’m not going to go through the process of separation or the divorce. And then having to one day call up her or my wife and say yep I had sex with somebody. Now you’re free like I couldn’t imagine doing that to her. So I thought I would rip off the bandaid and just get it done with. And that’s exactly what I did with that girl. That was that right. Yes. And so that you know me and my wife were married for seven years. Two of them two of the last year were really really hard to where I ultimately come to that decision. And what got interesting was it wasn’t what you wanted either. Absolutely not. No. I would have I don’t think people understand exactly what I was thinking because they never had the opportunity to have that conversation with me.

[02:13:51] It was when I got this fellowship with jobs when as soon as you’re disfellowshipped everybody has to write you off. You were shunned. They don’t talk to you. They don’t know your side of the story and what had happened. Because behind closed doors they didn’t know the in and out of my relationship with my wife. They just sawD.J. that it go to a meeting and he’s the reason but they don’t care about the truth they just care about appearances. Absolutely. And I was done with living that lifestyle which was I never felt myself when I looked in the mirror. I pictured somebody else and I was never that person. And it wasn’t that I made such drastic changes were completely changed and I wasn’t the same person. There was just little changes that I needed to do to make me happy. And that did not include getting more spiritual. So that meant getting more closer to my wife. That meant furthering our careers and getting to a happier medium that we didn’t have to be on the same page necessarily as far as spirituality was concerned in my mind because if that makes you happy go do it and I try to say that to her so many times like I don’t fault you for your belief systems. I will never judge you for it.

[02:14:57] But then it got to the point where she’s like Well I’m not going to I’m not going to raise you know if we have children I’m going to raise them in a divided household where you know their dad is in a Jehovah’s Witness and this or that was like in my mind I my I had to deal with the hand that was given me you know. And that’s the way I had to go out was obviously this relationship’s not working. I don’t want to be Jehovah’s Witness anymore. And I would have rather lived under a freeway overpass and go back. And that’s how strongly I felt was I could lose everything that I worked so hard for. And I would still be fine with the free mindset and independent thinking and the ability to have that independent thinking outside that organization and not the ties of a strained relationship anymore because it was just so mentally exhausting. Yeah. Once you’re done with that like there’s just no other way to be than just absolutely done like right. You will do anything to get away from it whatever the consequences are fine like you said if you have to go live under a bridge or whatever it just is what it is. And there is no choice. Once you know that that’s not what you want in your life it’s not like it’s something where you can you know kind of be I don’t know if kind of an all in thing. It’s very difficult to not. There are a lot of people out there and I’m sure maybe who were even listening to this who are physically in but mentally out you know most the album. All right. You know I think that if that’s if that’s what you want to do and you can do that like that takes a great deal of strength on its on its own front. You know it’s very difficult to live that right.

[02:16:52] And obviously some people can do it or choose to do it for family or whatever. And you know that’s awesome. If they can do it. But some people aren’t wired that way. There’s just no way. I don’t think there’s anything you know just for my personality type that could have kept me once I knew better. I just I had to be out but I’m just kind of an all or nothing person in certain ways you know. And we all have different personalities. So yeah I agree on the same type of person all or nothing and I think that that’s that might be something that people that have enough you know finding out from other people you know when I was out I didn’t know anybody. You know I was essentially a babe to the world and I didn’t have any friends. You know we’re not allowed to associate with quote unquote worldly people those that weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses so I’m in I’m somebody now 26 years old has no friends or ideas of just how to function without that social construct because it’s all uprooted from you. So there is a good portion of a year where I got I was just heavily drinking you know because this is ultimately not what I wanted. I wanted my family. I wanted the things that I still had. Minus that scriptural you know mindset or that perception of religion. And it really did a devastating factor on my mind. But what I found was through talking to other people that I had to. I started meeting was how much courage it actually takes to do what you ultimately have to do to be happy.

[02:18:28] And I think that that’s that’s one thing that witnesses that end up ultimately just throwing up their hands saying I’m done. I’m out. It takes an extreme amount of courage and you do and you definitely have to be an all or nothing person to jump ship. You know you do. You know it takes a lot of effort to jump from you know a ship that’s already sailing to jump into the freezing water to swim back to shore to build a boat just to get back out in the water again. It takes a lot more effort than just to ride that ship. Oh yeah absolutely it takes it takes a lot of effort to do that and then you know I know for myself I was just very fortunate that my wife came along and jumped off the ship with me just right. You know things just worked that way. But it’s it’s still like it doesn’t matter. Like that’s how it’s like one of the ways you know it’s called when there is literally no easy way to leave right. You know it doesn’t matter if you if your spouse leaves with you if your spouse stays behind. If your if you have children who stay behind like or if you stay in physically but mentally you’re out like there’s just no real way. To leave the cold without it negatively impacting you in a very harsh way. Well absolutely. And that’s where that’s where it gets interesting too is that I had never been to scholarship before. You know I had only been privately reproves so I had never really understood the negative ramifications of being disfellowshipped.

[02:20:06] Now while I was still in the organization disfellowshipping was something that I always just did it really comprehend. But I think as a jobs witness we just put it to the back of our minds and think this is just what has to be done and you just write it off but once you’re actually disfellowshipped you get to understand exactly how mental mentally manipulating it is to shun somebody to where it’s almost built by design that the organization wants you to fail. And they’ll say up and down that they swear that that is not what they intend. But when you rip somebody’s social structure their friends and family the only things that they are able to know because of the rigid rules and regulations. Once all of those things are gone and you are tossed into this big vast world you can easily get lost. And like I said a year after we filed for divorce and I was I got a place on my own. I didn’t know anybody. What was I supposed to do after I was done working. All I did was drink because I numbed myself from all of the emotions that I was going through. And I had no outlet. As far as the social structure was concerned to talk to anybody. So I was just you know I’m my own worst enemy in my own head. And they you know they want you to fail and come crawling back.

[02:21:26] And I had it at a certain point make a re-evaluation of my circumstances and say I have to better myself for myself and prove everybody wrong and then make an example for other people that are considering it saying his life didn’t turn to shambles you know it turned into Jim’s. And I think more people have to have that mindset because the organization wants you to come groveling back and crawling on your knees and being battered so that you can understand what a loving organization is and they’re always going to be there with their arms wide open. But they don’t understand how negatively it affects one’s mental cognitive functions. Sure. The best revenge is a life well lived. So right. You know go out live a good life and show them that they’re wrong. I mean if that’s all you can do and I mean absolutely. You know this is the only life that we know we have as human beings. You know whatever a person believes other than that that’s fine. But you know the only thing that we can literally prove that we have is this life. And every every day that we get as a gift. And so you know what else is there to do but to make it the best you can. Why why would you choose to do anything else. So yeah so go have you know you have to go have a good life and and hopefully you know sometimes that that is a good example for others who who want to leave to you know way. You know I watched this personally even and their life didn’t fall apart. Well maybe there is something to this maybe there is something to leave in this organization. Right. And I think we’re definitely headed down that path.

[02:23:07] I think there’s a trend that’s happening where more people more and more people are leaving in their understanding that they have to get you know for the longest time the society didn’t necessarily say like don’t go seek professional help as far as therapy was concerned but pretty much so in so many words. Did you say that you know to avoid that thing because now being outside the organization I think it’s becoming more and more of a trend with people that have left that they understand that it can be so mentally devastating that they do have to bandage those wounds before that they can continue. Whether that’s joining a community of abuse or getting a hobby something to better themselves and not to mull over the past because it can be so destructive. And if you don’t treat it that way and that’s something that I had at you know spend some time learning and being out. But once you find a good source of people to surround yourself with that you know understand what it could have been like to be raised and are open to religious conversations. It does wonders for your mind. And that’s that’s all I can say for anybody who might be considering it inside their religion because I know there’s three stages for me. When I was inside doubting on the fence and then outside there all three different perspectives. And if you have the opportunity to go through those you really do have to you know possibly seek professional help or you get a group of people that are supportive and not just do it on your own. Yeah. You’re not going to be able to do it successfully all alone. It’s too it’s too big. Absolutely.

[02:24:52] It’s just too big. Yeah. So then. So you’ve been out now for what a couple of years. So approaching two years. OK. Ann’s have you. So then you know you know just because you’re disfellowshipped although shunning is the policy of Jehovah’s Witnesses at times not everyone’s family lives up to that policies. Have you ever heard from your family again or is that it. You know it’s funny that you mention that you know because it’s you know is taking care of some taxes it’s tax season over here and I was filling out this form. And I remember the last real conversation I had with my mother was right before I was announced. And she helped me with a tax form. And as you know that is such a weird thing to think about is the last conversation that you had with your parents. Like a real conversation was about you know business or finances not like how are you doing. You know the family see you. Yeah yeah. It’s just some business formalities that she was eating me with. And you know there has been times where I’ve seen them at family functions. But what such a trip and I do not understand this and I don’t think I ever will is that because me and my wife are no longer together. They still treat her as family. So if I’m going to a world family function like my mom’s grandparents like anniversary for instance which happened a couple months back. They showed up with another witness family that’s not related to our worldly family. And they brought my my ex-wife.

[02:26:42] So they are going on vacation with her. They’re traveling with her they’re bring her to family functions that normally we would have went together with but we’re not together anymore. And they’re treating her as like a replacement. And I don’t understand that. I think that I think that they feel I’ve seen this before. I think that they feel guilt that is that they didn’t do something right in raising you that made you the faithful witness husband that she should have had. And I think that they are trying to atone for it by essentially adopting her as your replacement. If it is so fucked up. It really is. It is. It’s so strange. I’ve seen it before. It’s really weird. It’s so weird that when worldly people I mean who’s going to use the world world just like because now that I’m outside everybody who I associated associate with outside the organization is quote unquote worldly to people inside the organization. But when I mention that and they see it and I show them pictures they’re just like what the hell are you that is so it doesn’t even make sense on so many levels that it’s just even weird to somebody who doesn’t really understand that you know if one is disfellowshipped and the spouse stays in that they can still maintain some relationship with the person. But they literally replaced me with her and she does absolutely everything with them still as if I had died. Well there you go.

[02:28:15] So witnesses believe that essentially your parents believe that you will die at Armageddon and they will lay on into this panda paradise and they think that I have literally seen people write this on line of experiences or heard it where their parents are pretty much of the mindset that well so you know job in the Bible he had all these kids and and God allowed Satan to destroy his children. But hey God gave Joe a whole nother bunch of children in later life. So okay so it’s ok. I mean sure he he lost Johnny and Suzy but he Yeend Mike in jail whatever you know don’t say it’s like. So it’s this is this really messed up thing. And there are a lot of witness parents out there who not only after their son or daughter leaves the organization will replace them like they’ve kind of done here with your ex-wife but they honestly somewhere in their deranged minds at this point think that well others in the new system just have replacement kids for the ones I lost. And I don’t even miss them any more. I mean it’s the most messed up detached narcissistic thing. And that is like dad is somehow like at the core of this this faith that they have that they can do that. It’s something I’ll never understand. You know it’s messed up. You can’t understand it because you got your humanity back. They still have their strip from them you know. And I don’t know it’s just mind blowing. Yeah. And you know at the end of the day it’s so interesting because I had a conversation with my now being outside you know I’m rekindling these relationships. Take for instance my sister. Take for instance my sister who you know ran away at 16.

[02:30:20] There was a huge gap in years where we barely talked or saw each other and she now has five boys I have five nephews and yeah it’s crazy. And it took me over a year to reach out to her to say I apologize for not contacting you when I was an adult. And I could easily came and saw my nephews and you know I contacted my aunt my my dad’s sister who was disfellowshipped when she was 19 and has been out for almost 30 years. I’m Wrekin only rekindling these relationships and it was strenuous at first because I have to admit and apologize for being a grown ass man not talking to somebody because they didn’t believe the same thing that I did and my family did but they probably understand they did. And they welcomed me back with open arms and they said there’s absolutely no need to apologize and they couldn’t be more supportive. And I you know I just talked to one of my aunts the other day and she was just like you know one thing I don’t understand is how your parents could even even if it was that you just had had an affair with your wife. You know my mom did that to my dad as well when they were married. The only difference was they they stuck it out and stayed Jehovah’s Witnesses. But now now because I don’t believe the same thing and I did the same thing. But it’s for completely different reasons. My mom and father shunning me because of something that they had went through. It doesn’t make any sense at all. No it doesn’t. It does.

[02:31:55] And the difference is is I chose not to stay with my wife because ultimately I knew it would be better for the both of us. I wanted to ruin her life and ruin mine. It was no one I couldn’t do that be spiritual anymore. Be a part of that organization. And I wanted to let her be free. And there were certain steps that have to be taken within that organization that you’re going to be you’re going to be the problem you’re going to be the reason why everything failed is because you took that media out and you didn’t want to make it work. And that’s just not the case and people will ever understand that. And that’s why I love you know what you’re doing is because you’re giving people that have left a voice to tell their side of the story so that if anybody should come stumbling across this that still might be in and might know that person they’re gonna be like oh wow there is a second side of the story you know. Yes I did think about it that way. But yes I don’t know the other side because you know I’ve always thought about you know doing this as a way to give a voice back to the voiceless because shunning is a way to shut people up. Yeah. And yes it absolutely is. You know here’s the other side of the story here’s the side that you’re not allowed to hear that you’re not allowed to think about. And there are a lot of other stories out there of people who who have never been heard. And it feels good to be heard and validated.

[02:33:24] And and I don’t know it’s just so it’s so gross what they do and trying to. They’re like little kids sticking their fingers in their ears and going la la la. You like it. You know it’s so immature and it really is and I’m so honored that you know people want to tell their stories with me. You know doing this right. And and put out that other side. It’s I don’t know it’s a really cool thing to be able to do. Absolutely and that’s that’s the way that I viewed it was I got so low and you know I you know on paper when I was married and part of that organization people outside looking in our life was perfect. And and you know I don’t blame them for the way that things looked at face value. But that absolutely wasn’t the case. And now being shown you know I essentially lost everything that I worked hard for. But what I still have left that the organization can’t take away from me is my voice and my side of the story. So I was like if anybody were to question theirs and you know whether there’s somebody who might know me or not. I want to give that person an outlet that I found to when I was wavering in my beliefs was listening to podcasts about religion and people how they left their faith. It’s not easy but what people have to understand is that you have to be methodical about it. If you’re being manipulated manipulate the situation back because you need to come out on top to sustain your sanity. And yeah.

[02:35:02] So things like this where people are telling their side of the story and how they navigated around those things. I think you know we’ll do wonders for increasing the amount of people that gain that courage to jump ship and swim back to shore and start start over fresh like they deserve to that’s very well said. So what would you like people to know. Like who have never been Jehovah’s Witnesses to know about the religion like if you could tell somebody out there who has never been a witness you know other than your story. Like is there anything that you think that they should know about this this cult. No. I mean you just said it perfectly. I think that the only thing that I would say is that it absolutely is a call and that took me some time even outside of the religion to come to the conclusion of believing and you know. You know Joves witnesses will say oh we don’t we don’t define ourselves as a call or accept that type of terminology but if anybody outside is looking at jobs witnesses like they’re just a fun loving group of well-dressed well-spoken people they’d be absolutely correct. But it’s not by choice. They’re robots that is just conditioned to parrot and project what they’re what they’re taught through the publications that they’re only allowed to read so that to me would define a call at its finest which is this is what you get to take in.

[02:36:26] And this is what you do and if you waver you were you are shunned and you know I was just talking to somebody the other day and I said Jehovah’s Witnesses are like the Hitler regime of our time which is you know essentially ethnically cleansing the Earth which is you don’t you don’t believe or support this war. We have nothing to do with you and this is the last time Jesus is you know coming to your door. I mean their greatest hope in life is that Jehovah God instituted the great war of Armageddon to kill billions of people and whilom off the face of the earth. Just so this band of eight million people so their lives can be made a little easier. Right. Well thick you know dystopia they think you know that that your only hope in life that the only thing you can look forward to is the destruction of literally everyone and everything around you so that you can go hug a panda on a paradise. Yeah yeah absolutely. And honestly that was one of the first things that went through my mind as far as really understanding what I was a part of when if people just had the people in the organization just had the ability to go from the very beginning the furthest back all the way to Adam and Eve and the great sand. You know they you know they were instructed not to do something. They did it and we all had to suffer. And we we are basically chess pawns in Gods game of proving his you know is saying the devil wrong. And along the line look at how many people have died because of this game and it’s just getting to the point where you know they’re saying oh we’re living in the times of the end.

[02:38:15] No we’ve always said that the only difference that is change is that we live in the age of technology and the availability to share information is becoming increasingly more and more available to people to where they’re able to see the ins and outs the good and bad of what’s going on. And of course the battle is going to be highlighted because it’s the most interesting. But you know take for instance you live in in gaining a second time like that was the end of the world. You know what I’m saying. Right. Wouldn’t you rather live today or show up in the Roman Coliseum. Yeah exactly. And people people don’t like to look at it like that. That to them was the end of the world they were they would probably rather die than live. And now we’re you know thrown are ugg boots on and walking to Starbucks and you know meter is going to come down from the sky. But apostates are talking badly about their religion. What a horrible time to live. It’s ridiculous. I just really wish that people would take a deeper look and re-evaluate their situation even at the smallest level. Like going like I said all the way back to the beginning and Adam and Eve and how it’s just all just a game between. If there is a God you know somebody who’s dominating his power. So the assertion of power now that you you are out. Is there anything that you’ve learned since being out that has really helped you grow.

[02:39:41] Is there anything that any books any podcasts videos anything that that has helped you grow as just a human being or just helped you kind of clear your mind of you know the past or understand it. Yeah you know what I what I learned about myself first of all being outside was I didn’t realize how much stress and anxiety that I had within the organization that it caused me. And people tend not to understand that while they’re in it’s that. Do you ever look at what you’re a part of as being the cause or the root of whatever suffering you may be going through. People don’t want to believe that that might be the case. But in mine absolutely was because after I went to Yeah after I went to that period after leaving there was a good year where I didn’t want to deal with my emotions and I just was heavily drinking and just numbing myself. But once I really started to take a stand and meet the right people that motivated me to just like to just do your thing start living for yourself and stop thinking about the past because you know it’ll just repeat itself. And once I started to re-evaluate what I wanted out of life whether it was doing this hobby or dedicating this time to that you really start at once you start living for yourself it’s like the illustration of you know in an airplane incident where if you know you’re supposed to put the mask on your face first before you can even help a child sitting next to you. So once you understand that you really ultimately have to take care of your well-being before you can be beneficial to anybody else that that’s when you start growing and for me I started to become more of a kind hearted understanding individual.

[02:41:27] That was a really humbled by the experience. And a lot of the help that I had along the way was you know listening to Joe Rogan and some of the scholars that he has on and then going diving deeper into those scholars. You know Lloyd Evans wrote you know in his book The Reluctant apostate where he goes he jumps in You know he used to be an elder I’m sure you’re familiar with him in. Oh yeah. Yeah. You get a you get a understanding you know if there’s any Jehovah’s Witnesses that might be listening to this they’re still in the faith like this is taking from a perspective of somebody who if you didn’t tell you that he wasn’t a jobs witness and you just heard his voice you would think that he still was because he debates in the utmost respect and uses only their publications. Oh the debate is very good and that’s yeah. And that’s what I love the most. When I was just kind it put dip in my foot into you know quote unquote apostate material was that he didn’t use any outside resources other than really diving into their own publications and pointing out key points. Well this is how can be perceived and that’s how they perceive it. But this is how it should be perceived. Don’t you agree. And maybe you don’t but in a lot of cases I did. So his book and his YouTube channel was very instrumental of me starting to dive deeper into the publications themselves within the organization.

[02:42:55] And then also Ray friends you know crisis of conscious conscious and you know things like that these are these are the catalysts things that I would recommend anybody that might be wavering or may be outside looking for a sense of purpose. It really does give you a good outlet to justify the feelings that you have. And there’s nothing better than you know just feeling good about how you feel about a search situation especially when everything everything’s stacked against you all the people that you know or knew think that you’re in the wrong. Even though in your mind you feel that you’re not. So you’ve obviously learned a lot you know gotten some new and fresh perspectives. What do you what do you enjoy about your new life. You know since you’ve been out. What I love about my new life is the fact that you know I work so much and I’m busy. I work six days a week and a lot of that had to do with just filling time that I had. Now a lot of it was a lot of free time. Now that would typically go towards you know dedication to my spirituality in meeting attendance. And once you have those that free time you can really dive into what you enjoy. You know there was a recent broadcast thatJ.W. put out that that I watched that was talking about the unnecessary things of life you know and they’re filling a bucket with rocks and there’s big rocks about like personal study Bible reading field ministry and all the little Roxanne’s all the bullshit that you’d rather do. And you know it’s like take out all these little rocks of the big rocks could fit in because they matter most. And then sprinkle in some what you want to do.

[02:44:41] But in actuality if you’re not doing what you want to do then you’re truly never going to be happy and you’re never you’re never in a progressive life you’re just going to be stagnant. And I think that that’s the worst place to fall into. Yeah. Agree. It’s the cause of a lot of depression anxiety and misery in life when you’re living an authentic life. It’s not what you really want to do right. It doesn’t have to be extreme and that’s how my parents are my my ex-wife would say is like what. What is so beneficial to you now that you justify not coming back. And it’s like you don’t understand it. It’s so many things on so many different levels that you’ll never understand because you’re not questioning the finer things and until you do that you will understand if I was just thinking about how they just they can never. You said they could never understand. There’s a there’s a moment when you wake up and you’re finally free. There’s a feeling of relief that comes with that. That yeah. You know we all want for our loved ones to feel someday. Absolutely. And it’s something that I would say sadly maybe for myself at least I felt like I think there’s there’s almost a high that comes with that that you can’t you can’t get again in life without. I guess going back to some other torture is prison. Right. And you know riding out the other side.

[02:46:22] But there’s a piece that you get when you can just wake up each day and realize that this is your life and what you do today is your decision and you’re not looking to somebody else to tell you what you should do how you should think how you should feel. I really wish you know I hope you know for your sake and for the sake of those that you love that that you know as witnesses we would always if we had friends or family who were disfellowshipped or whatever we would say well you know as long as there’s time in a system there’s time for them to come back. Right. Well I’ll flip that and say you know as long as there’s time in those people’s lives you know there’s there is time where you know who knows maybe statistically you know at least one more person from our past comes out and maybe someday we get to reunite with them. And so I try to hold out hope even even though you know it’s a total crap shoot. There’s no guarantees. You know who knows maybe someday we get to talk to some of those people again. Yeah absolutely. And you know I look forward to hopefully that time being sooner than later. There’s so many issues you know in the news that the organization is being criticized for. And it’s just becoming more and more prevalent not to people you know outside the organization obviously but to people inside to that there’s a lot of things that the organization is covering up and not making public for a reason.

[02:47:58] You know once once people start to wake up it’s going to be because of the scrutiny and the criticism that the organizations are under and it’s going to start lighting a small fire for people to really look at the inner workings of the governing body and the things that they’ve been involved with the past. A lot of people don’t know that you know the investments that they’ve made in military and you know been part of theU.N. even though we’re not supposed to be a part of this world. It’s just it’s one thing after the other. If people just did the slightest amount of research not not. And that’s the problem with the organization is every day they want to just drive in New information new white like you’re so over inundated with new information you never have a chance to take a step back. And it’s funny being outside of the organization. You would think that oh somebody would you know they would crawl back or find their way. And that being outside would make them feel like they need to study and learn. But in fact I thought that that would happen to me. In fact it’s driven further because I’ve had that time to be more introspective and look into these things. And it’s it’s making me more and more disgusted for even being ever associated with an organization that can call themselves the quote unquote truth and hold those people to those high expectations. It’s hard to look back and believe believe that you once were involved in this. You know this cult you kind of already touched on it a little bit. But I just wanted to ask you know if if you had a moment and you could say anything you wanted to your friends or family that show you what would you say is there anything that you’d like to tell them.

[02:49:43] I would just I would tell them to really sit down and think about what your intuition is telling you not what is what is expected of you because you can let that get carried away and it can become your life in your mindset. But once you start to really evaluate here your intuition and what you’re internalizing and let that speak to you it will it will guide you to what you should be doing. And I doubt that it’s what what what they think it is you know they just don’t allow themselves to to just tease the idea of questioning. And once you know I think that God gave us free will for a reason if you know God does exist. And if there’s one thing that the organization taught me it’s to fight for what I believe in and now it’s not that. Yeah I was I was founded a little curious that they would you know harp on the freewill we had but yet they would essentially take that freewill away through their policies and procedures. Yeah as an organization it’s very hypocritical. It is yeah very very much so. JR There’s your past life I guess. How does your past life affect you today. You know you’re a couple of years out. Not really that long when you compare it to the length of time that you spent in church and clearly you know I think all of us doing this podcast or listening to this podcast today or in some way still in a process of recovery that that it will probably last a lifetime.

[02:51:24] But is there any specific way anything right now that you kind of struggle with from it that I see honestly just coming to terms you know the fact that when I’m in the you know for whatever reason I don’t know why but when I meet new people inevitably religion in my past will come up you know just because that’s all I had known so long. And so when they come to find out that I was a part of that they say to me not because I live in this super crazy lifestyle that it is not in accord with the Bible they just straight up tell me you do not strike me as somebody who would ever be a Jehovah’s Witness. And I take that as a compliment now is because to be associated with such a like mindedness is not a good feeling once you’re outside of it when you realize how indoctrinated these people are. It’s almost like you are a robot. And so what I’ve learned being outside of it is to really think for yourself and apply critical thinking and reason with everything not just in you religious or spiritual spirituality it’s everything in life and that’s how you make good decisions in life is when you really criticize every aspect you question everything and come to a firm understanding that way it is just it’s priceless. I like that you said you. You’re not afraid or ashamed to make your story known because that’s been a big deal for myself and my wife and it’s just it’s one of those things that if you’re vulnerable and allow yourself to be vulnerable people respect that and you know they will have a greater understanding of.

[02:53:21] I mean let’s face it I think all of us that leave the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses are any cult that has people isolated we fit in but only to an extent. Right. You know there are a lot of social things that I don’t get. There are a lot of cultural references that maybe I don’t get I didn’t watch a lot of the popular movies and things like that and I may not get certain references. But when you are open enough to tell people your story they they gain a better understanding of you. And then it’s easier to make friends but you have to be willing to put yourself out there. And it’s the. It’s not easy to do. It’s definitely not easy to be in such a vulnerable vulnerable position. But what I understand is that I have nothing to lose and I’m not ashamed of my past I’m ashamed of what I had to do to get to where I’m at now especially being married and having to do it I had to do to her that Yeah that is something that will always haunt me because there’s a big stigma about that. There’s a big label about men or women that you know cheat on their spouse. But what I want people to understand is that that that you’re sometimes your hand is forced in a decision. And ultimately you have to make something that goes innately against your standards or morals because they put those things in place not because you want to just ruin somebodies life.

[02:54:51] And that’s what I think is most important for people exiting is to tell their story their side of the story that it’s not all that somebody just lost their mind and they lost their way and that they just don’t know what they want. It’s not the case you know and what you know people tend to forget is you know we’re not the same people over time and if you get married super young inevitably you guys are going to change you guys are going to grow together you’re going to grow apart. You know I mean even science says that all of the cells in our body replace themselves. You know something like 10 years. So technically you’re a completely new person. And unless you have somebody by your side who’s willing to stick through thick and thin and understand you guys don’t have to agree upon everything. But if you guys want to make it work you have to be a little wavering in what you might like or not like just for the sake of you know working it out with your spouse. Yeah you’re not Jehovah’s Witnesses put a an unnecessary burden on married couples that essentially they are to be carbon copies of one another. You know that they are to have this there to be unified in the cold essentially believes and and it’s so unfair because that’s just not a couple is typically two people who although they may have some similar interests. I like this. There is a quote I heard one time minutes if the two of you are exactly alike then one of you is not necessary. Right. And I really like that you know you want to be in a relationship with someone who brings something different to the party.

[02:56:39] You know you don’t want carbon copies but we were raised in an environment where you did want carbon copies you wanted other people to think like you and feel like you it everything. And it’s such an unfair unrealistic expectation. Yeah. And it really negatively impacts a lot of relationships. Absolutely and I know it might sound cliche but one of the quotes that really got me back to those struggling years was Kurt Cobain saying I’d rather people hate me for who I am than love me for who I’m not. And I thought that that was so fitting within that organization is that sometimes you find yourself just living a life that is not you and you come to that understanding and you’re just like I can’t do this anymore. And I would rather those people hate me for that than you know love me for who I was just perceiving myself to be in front of them. It’s the weirdest thing to explain. Absolutely. So now you’re you’ve got this new perspective now you appear to be you. What do you have any dreams for your new life. Is there anything in you got any plans in the works or anything that you’re hoping to achieve other than just has it. Yeah yeah. I mean other than just being happy everyday. Now I’ve done a lot of traveling which has been great. It’s been getting my mind off of a lot of things and seeing you know experiencing new places and that’s been really great. I’m getting into real estate so I’m going to be holding on to the business that I already have in just getting into something that I think that I would enjoy. And I never got to that availability.

[02:58:13] You know I was kind of thrust into the workforce just for the sake of being independent but I never really questioned exactly what I would rather be doing. Right. And I think with that line of job as far as pursuing real estate you would allow me to you know have a little bit more of a flexible schedule than I do now as well as you know. You know different amount of income to where it would allow that I could have more time off to do more extensive traveling and that’s essentially what I’m aiming for is leaving for you know months at a time if at all possible to different places to really take in different cultures and understand the world even more than I’m starting to you know know it as it is now. I love I love that that sounds awesome man that I cut you off. I don’t know if I cut you off. Oh no no no. Have you any other dreams you want to throw out there but I think that that’s that’s awesome. I’ve never been able to go out and experience different cultures. But in our business we work around people at towns who have been able to and just the lessons that they’ve told us that they’ve learned from doing so and the beautiful people and things they’ve been able to see in their travels. I mean in the end life is about experiences and you know to be able to have those experiences and have that shape a mold who you are. That’s one of the more beautiful things you can hope for in life. Absolutely. I couldn’t agree any more.

[02:59:52] I want to thankD.J for being so vulnerable and for telling his story. I also wanted to add something here to clarify something for people that might not be familiar with the policy of Jehovah’s Witnesses regarding divorce. WhatD.J says here is true and I know it sounds crazy but Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that the only real grounds for what they call quote scriptural divorce divorce that gives you scriptural grounds to remarry is adultery. That’s it. So you can get divorced for other reasons though honestly they frown on that. But maybe now let’s say that you were you were being abused or something like that that you were in physical danger. Of course there are always going to push you back toward the abuser as many times as they can but they will sometimes allow divorce for that. But when you get divorced whether you want to or not or whether they allow it or not but you’re not scripturally free to remarry as they see it unless it is due to adultery. If you do remarry you must prove that your former spouse has moved on sexually to someone else or you might face discipline within the congregation. You could be disfellowshipped or approved. And yes I’m serious about this. This is this is real life. A woman might get divorced because her husband beats her but her sexuality is forever linked to the abuser. And so he takes it elsewhere and admits to it or you know maybe remarries himself or something like that which would obviously show that he has moved on so you can hear howD.J doing what he did was uncomfortable for him. You can hear how he has regrets.

[03:01:36] Hopefully you can imagine the ridiculous pressure put on him by this cult pressure that neither served him nor his wife nor anyone involved. This whole issue of divorce in the court is super messy and dysfunctional but they see him as God’s law and he knows best. So surely that these rules that are clearly not fair and that don’t work and are very dysfunctional they must be best because they’re from God as they see it. If you want to leave a comment forD.J you can do so. Shunnedpodcast.com. Again shunnedpodcast.com just click on the episodes page and you’ll see historie there you can leave comments there. You can also see more information and links to resources there. will have the opportunity to respond to you too. So you know it’s encouraging when people interact after somebody has been so vulnerable to try to help others with their story. Now next month we have a story of an amazing woman named Brenda that escaped the LDS cult. For those who are unfamiliar FLDS stands for the Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints. So it’s kind of like a fundamentalist Mormon denomination. Their leader Warren Jeffs is in prison as a convicted child molester and is currently serving a sentence of life plus 20 years. He still controls the group even from prison. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen the show on Hulu called The Handmaid’s Tale but if you are then you’re familiar with the concept of a group that sees women as objects in just about every aspect of life.

[03:03:14] And in a world where women are reaching more and more for their rights and hashtags like me too are trending you know this is an interview that I think women will be really attracted to hearing. There are still places even in the United States where the culture of oppression of women dominates. Of course you know the interesting thing is that many women in this culture think they’re happy. And let’s not forget that you know it’s not healthy for the men either. This is the impacts of this group on their members of whether they be men or women. It’s fascinating but it’s also really frightening a look into a world that many of us cannot fathom but that is so real and hurting real people out there. So look for Brenda’s episode the first week of May if you haven’t already now would be a great time to subscribe so that you won’t miss it when it comes out. Now I’ve had people reach out to me asking if I have any ways to support the show financially. You can always support the show by leaving a positive review on iTunes that really helps because it helps get the word out so that you know more people can find it and maybe they can get help themselves. But I’ve also gone ahead and started a Patreon page where you can donate to the show now if you like. I do have ongoing costs. Every month that I put out there to keep this going you know don’t worry I’m not going to discontinue the show. I’m not going to be one of those people who threatens you. You know you know I can’t continue this show if you don’t donate.

[03:04:53] I’m not going to do that I hate that I’m going to do this show whether anyone pitches in or not because this is important to me. It’s important to the people that get to tell their stories and you know hopefully it’s important to you to as you listen. With that said there are ongoing costs and I’m taking a course in search engine optimization right now to try to help get this message out even more. Part of the SBO efforts could be having transcripts produced to help produce more contents on the site but it’s looking like that could costs anywhere between 30 and 50 dollars per episode to get that done. Depending on the length of the episode and that’s for a computer generated transcript that’s done with the program that’s not an actual human doing this. So you know that’s even a cheap way to get this done. I also pay for hosting for the audio of this podcast and also Jay stateJ.W. your life for the hosting of the Web sites. Spend time managing plugins responding to emails cutting out spam interviewing people producing audio of purchase microphones audio recorders I even purchased a new laptop because my old one was old and underpowered. So you know I’m all in on this. I will continue to be. This is not going anywhere. But if you choose to donate you don’t think I’m getting rich off this or anything. If you want to help defray the costs you can go to Patrie on dot com slash fund. Again that’s Patreon.com/shunned and you can sign up to become a donor if you like. I don’t have any rewards for you.

[03:06:36] There are options to set up rewards for people for donating. This podcast itself will have to be the reward for now it’s enough for me to keep up with already I don’t have time to create anything special on top of that. But you know if if you do choose to donate I really appreciate it and it does help defray the costs. I also had some t shirts made for this J.W. life that I wore on a visit to Brooklyn. That’s why I posted some pictures of myself from my wife wearing those shirts and there were people who liked it more like you know where can I get this shirt. I didn’t know that was really my story so I kind of felt weird selling shirts that other people would advertise just just my story on it. So I’m thinking about making some t shirts for shunned and you know if anyone has interest let me know I’m going to get some aid from my wife and see how they look first and then you know I’ll let you know that there could be another way to maybe support the show if I make a few dollars on a on a T-shirt sale. You know go to some measure of defraying costs but you know all that aside you know. Thank you so much for listening for supporting what I do here for the reviews on iTunes for the beautiful e-mails that I get from people for the comments that you give to people that I interview. That’s encouraging to me to see people get involved and support one another. Really just just for everything.

[03:08:12] I had no idea what power doing something like this could have in my own life and on the lives of those that get involved the lives of people who tell their story and then seem like they’re so much freer emotionally from from you know kind of walking up and unloading their baggage on some level this isn’t this isn’t just an audio program. It’s people’s real lives a slice of life that you know was silenced by these religious groups. And I’m glad that we can all come together and give this voice back to the voiceless so as always love others do no harm and go be happy.

Bonus Episode.mp3

[00:00:02] Welcome to the shunned podcast. This episode is actually a bonus episode. This is a little bit different. It’s really pretty much an excerpt from the pre interview that I did with David for his podcast. You’ve pretty much heard his whole story but there was well when I interview anyone. I don’t necessarily know their stories going in. Sometimes I know a little bit about them. Perhaps I’ve seen them on Instagram or Twitter or something maybe they have a little bit of a blog. There might be something I know at times other times I really go in completely blind. So when we were talking before his actual story while I was getting the levels together and just you know threw a little bit of chit chat he started. David started to tell me about this Steve B guy and things got real pretty quick and in that I felt like we had a conversation that was worth sharing that that maybe there were other people out there that might be helped by hearing some of what we shared together so I went ahead and extracted that excerpt from the preinterview. We actually ended up having a much longer conversation than even what you’re going to have here on this episode but I thought it was worth hearing especially for those who have been victims of abuse and you know of course any of us x Jehovah’s Witnesses can relate. So a lot of probably what you’ll hear here so go ahead and leave it to that and I hope you get something out of this. The Bee who was sort of predatorial was late.

[00:02:13] He’s probably in his 50s now but one of his things is he’s very Apostle Paul like taking young like that’s how it started was he was from New York and we were just some you know Minnesota kids and he’s like oh I’ll show you the world fluid out there my you my brother. And then the next time he thought well I want to show you the city more without. Not like Joan was drag but my younger brother just you by yourself. So that was when you’re in the big city is the only present I really know an out and out of of itself and it sucks cause as an adult you know I was 18 I should have been able. Like I felt so stupid and embarrassed and just frozen with fear. I should have been able to stand up for myself or use my voice or say it what what is this. But you know the power of church and trust in somebody who has influence over me you like whether or not you reached some arbitrary age. Adulthood is like I had nothing but boyish naivety and absolute trust in this person. It was unimaginable the scenario I found myself in and I froze and I did every. Even though I knew better. I really really tried to tell myself I was having strange dreams as what it was. You know you disassociated. That’s the psychological term you disassociate internally and and try to distance your brain is trying to distance you from what is happening. So it makes you feel like it’s a dream. It makes you feel it’s a protection.

[00:03:42] It’s like a built in failsafe for when something traumatic is happening and I go crazy because I just can’t like i’m cry a lot during this thing I know. But like just the fire inside. Like your whole body. If you’ve ever read those it you know it just instantly crumbles like I just thought I would absolutely implode like that for every second that stretched on. It could have been 10 minutes it could have been 20 years. I couldn’t I was so I just had nothing could have prepared me for that moment. Like all the prayers and like I just don’t know like it was some talisman over and over. Please stop please make us stop you know like nothing happened. Of course I of the awful outside. I also. Something you said. I just mean I’m not a therapist but you said that you you. You kind of blame yourself for. Or you said you know I was 18 and I should have been able to to stop it or whatever. And you know let me absolve you of that because that’s not that’s not true. The fact that predators groom people and this guy it sounds like is a professional at it. He had you in a situation where you were isolated he did something that you would have never expected. Freezing is a natural human response. We all have the flight or fight response and you don’t get to pick what it is that’s that your body naturally does and your mind naturally does in such a situation. So you know for some people yes they would fight. But that’s just that’s just a natural thing. It doesn’t mean that they chose that either.

[00:06:00] A person who flees even if that fleeing is to disassociate mentally to to leave their body essentially you know mentally that is that is just a natural response. And it’s not something that we have control over. I god I just I wish that it never happened to anybody. And I do fear that this guy I mean the way he invited you up there and all that like every time he’s ever come to Minnesota he usually brings a New Yorker where they’re big city folk and they don’t know the country like rural Minnesota come out in service with us once in these rural territories were every road is gravel and straight for miles. Like I think he travels with people a lot. I just wonder it’s usually like a young male traveling companion you like to meet the Barnabus and all that kind of like Apostle Paul. People like it when you’re in the truth because it feels like the apostle Paul. I’m thinking. Has any of these other guys like Was I an isolated incident like that which is that of itself. I’ve had emails with other people and I’m very clear like I said that’s why aren’t I thank you for your absolving me of it because I’m past that. But I still feel the I’m past it and I know it but knowing it and like is just one of those things and that’s why I don’t know actually intellectually knowing it and you’re emotionally feeling it exactly.

[00:07:33] Exactly because yeah that’s one of the things I always told Missy is you know like the part that sucks is we can sit and watch the Scientology stuff and she’ll talk about someone who is like 087. And I not having been raised in scientology I just get the sense of that comment means all of this was a person high up high ranking. And so I understand that that adds weight to the argument about to be presented. However that doesn’t impress me when a witness so if I hear somebody who went to Bethel or an ex elder there is this emotional like oh that’s the impressive thing because you are familiar with the sacrifices and time commitments it takes to get that far up and then you just feel like it’s when I ever stop being Can it just come like mindless information like as simple as 087 where I won’t be impressed that someone made it that far up or I won’t have those emotional responses to it. That that should be something that registers as simple as reading something I was not familiar with. Yeah I I don’t know if if you’re aware of this and I guess I I don’t know if this is helpful at all or not. It’s so. I know myself as a witness. I was pretty judgmental and as witness as we were taught that’s that everything we did was basically our choice.

[00:09:08] We were kind of conditioned control freaks to think that things that happened to us were things that we we wanted to happen because we made choices that led to those things and there are I used to always wonder I could never grasp why let’s say a battered woman would stay with her husband or there were instances where I’ve heard of people who were raped women let’s say in this case who were raped who then went back to that same man and then like dated that person. And I could never understand that. But what I’ve come to learn is that it’s kind of our brains way of trying to prove to ourselves that we did have control and that we wanted it. People tend to go back to their abuser because they’re trying to their brains subconsciously. It’s not a conscious thing it’s not a conscious choice but their brain is so traumatized it’s trying to set up scenarios whereby they go back to that person so that they can feel like yeah like I have control over that so that they can make it right so that they can maybe flip the script and you know from an outsider’s perspective it looks like you know well maybe you weren’t raped. I mean look at you you’re going back to this person and you know the witnesses would use the dog returning to its vomit or whatever crap script they use for that stuff. But it’s a natural human psychological phenomena. It is not a moral failing. It is it does not make a person a bad person. It makes a person a hurt person that is following a natural course. And that makes a lot of sense. It’s so funny because when I heard your story it just spoke to me so much that I got were like super similar like a lot of ways. But I also really like the heart which you came from. You know it felt like I’ll get into that when we tell the story more or less.

[00:11:22] But the idea that I thought God this is the person who went through what I went through but thought and felt so the humanity side of you like I don’t know if you were taking a personality test the common ENFP you know and like most witnesses you will find fall into that category of where we belong to the idealists whether it’s teacher the healer and stuff like that and sort them into a lie A.J. if I remember oh OK I may be wrong on that. Yeah I think it’s just interesting how like it’s weird because it’s a religion that brings a certain mindset it attracts a certain mindset and then it festers it further and then like whether you’d like you said about the dog returning to its vomit or there’s so many things that we do. Naturalise humans that I feel I know from myself. I was a young wild teen who wanted to push the envelope a lot you know rebellious and read Lord of the Rings and books like that and I listened to heavy metal music and you know I had a lot of that. But for me the funny part was I cared which also made it hurt a lot. Like what people thought did hurt. And you know I tried to think for myself and push the envelope and eventually my very first disfellowshipping. That’s kind of exactly what it was when I said you know what I’m not going to do anything like awful but having to just I’m just going to go out and just get my sense of self disfellowshipped almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[00:12:55] So then I can start over at zero and like all this nonsense that where I am waffling between what my issues are will be clear cut and then it just climb climb the ladder that I wanted to hit that rock bottom so I could climb up. And then if you like until you identify that bottom for me the bottom like my wife you know she thinks like she loves that I was squeaky clean the stuff I did that pushed the envelope you know like for my first disfellowshipping it basically amounted to lose kont inducts which only is to sell shippable if there’s a pattern of it because you’re clearly not quite sure what it was. You know it’s just like you’re so squeaky clean. I’m thinking I know but like this is stuff I hated myself like I to watching my actions in my own hands like do things that you know just it’s put in you. Of course of course that’s how they control you. They make you feel shame that you’re a horrible human being over normal human things and that is how they get their claws in you. And you know once they have you feeling so terrible about yourself you have to turn to them for everything for you know what is right what is wrong because obviously you don’t know you’re a horrible person. So yeah I mean that’s that’s how they control you men. I don’t know I’m just I’m just so sorry. That’s you know you had to go through those things. I’m sorry that all of us had to go through all of these things. It’s part of the reason I guess I’m doing this podcast too.

[00:14:39] And the reason I told my own story was to shed a light on it because there is a good life out there and it’s not to be found in Jehovah’s Witnesses. People need to know that people need to be set free because there are a lot of people walking around feeling terrible about themselves and the implications of this. You know I guess I’m not sure how long you’ve been out but it still has an impact years later on people. I was just in fact I just got a new Facebook friend the other day. It was somebody that that I knew growing up and I don’t man I don’t know how long she’s been out but it’s probably been at least over a decade and she’s just now looking at the stuff and starting to wake up. You know she’s in house and she’s disfellowshipped she’s she’s living a different life. But it’s so hard to look at this stuff because it’s so traumatizing for most people that you know it takes a long time to even get enough distance from it where you can start to look at it. I know I have three brothers IRL two brothers and sisters three siblings still alive. And my brother just got married in October and his wife you know I right now I am finally comfortable enough and secure enough and I’m worthy enough to say no this was or I was wrong. You were in the wrong. You know this was wrong. This is failed by use the B. I was failed by you and I. Come and get me. You want to challenge it. I dare you to. You know you look yourself in the mirror and try to say it with a straight face it didn’t happen like this religion is wrong wrong wrong.

[00:16:35] And like I rail against this organization I told my brother Jonah I’m an apostate and he’s younger than me and he’s been out for over a decade but he’s just happy working. Being a businessman and living his life you choose tobacco and drinks all the time you know he’s a good guy he just has those habits that are you know I don’t want to I still live a clean life. I just am not a witness in my mind. But he like recoiled when I had just said I’m an apostate I’m quite an apostate. And I thought it was like I know I had slapped him because he’s and same thing about a brother Ruben like. These are people who have been out for over a decade and they look at me like when Ruben’s bride I have railed against that to her. I told her like how thankful I was just to be at this wedding because it’s the first wedding of any of my siblings. I was I was acting you know and that was a huge thing for me and I’m crying and I’m saying I’m so glad that I’m here for you guys I think Ruben found a really good mom and she’s like yeah. And we talked a little bit about religion I was like I said in religion I hate that I perpetrated that stuff. Misto real siblings real life going on and she’s like it’s OK. You’re here now. And I just can’t see why anyone would ever want to go back to that which really. Like what.

[00:17:47] So he thinks that he might have mentioned things to her where he still might believe it but these are people who have just grown so comfortable with. I’m going to smoke and drink and live what I want just knowing it’s wrong that I’m doing wrong and that I’m bad and I’m thinking no no no no no. Like you guys please look at stuff I will Baburova you books I will send you thing and I want them to like you just got married to this nice gal in a Lutheran church and she’s not like oh we have to wear church time forcing hers on you. And if you’re even hinting that down the line you want to go back to this. Been out for so long and the changes you’re going to have to make. I see that that’s going to be nothing but divisive and I don’t want them to for this especially you know like. And there will be problems in a marriage. But to bring this in is like you know destruction he. How can he even be thinking that because to me that’s like Ruben this religion has ripped our family to pieces and has done nothing but I don’t know. I think for him there’s a psychology that says until he was married you could never feel like he actually had the grounds to go back on and start over. Like what. I’m living in sin. What’s the what’s the point of going back to meetings but now that he’s got that he might be thinking about it. So when they told me you know apostate it was like I said well what interests me like I have a difference.

[00:19:06] I differ in my belief from that organization and I think it’s you don’t ever feel like you failed them they failed you and you you’re not you’re not living as you want and it’s bad and you’re wrong for it. They’re wrong. That’s the main thing is you need to understand it so I try to drop nuggets as I don’t know but doesn’t know how strong the indoctrination is. It is it is so strong that when you’re in it you never look at it because you’re told essentially not to look at it. Oh yeah. And then when you leave it you’re still not looking at it. And so that those feelings that shame that they implanted in you you still feel like a bad person here just because there are so many people I’ve met over the years that say and I remember we would meet them even when we were out knocking on doors and they would say well you know I studied with Jehovah’s Witnesses and you know mandos people they have the truth. But I just can’t live up to it. I just I just I just like to drink or smoke or whatever. And it’s the same thing it is. I mean you have witnesses active witnesses in good standing. That’s acts that behave in a human way. Whether that is the way they know the way they drink or you know some quote vice that they pick up or whether it’s the way they behave with the opposite sex or the same sex or whatever and they end up leaving because of the behavior but that’s a physical external thing. No one has addressed internally how they feel about it.

[00:20:57] And then here they are a decade later and they still feel internally the exact same way that they felt when they were sitting there in the Kingdom Hall being indoctrinated and it’s just it’s just amazing to look at humanity and how it can be manipulated. It’s really scary how it can be manipulated and I feel it I feel for your brother if that’s because it’s not a happy life. No. And I think he’s smart enough and he will win now and thank god. Honestly thank God like that. But you know my goodness that I am in the position I’m in now with the courage I have. And I know what I know and I own crisis of conscience even though I’m only halfway through it you know and I feel like I have a hard time reading it. It’s like I don’t want to finish. You know. Yes I get to a certain point and I say this is the nail in the coffin and then I look at how many pages are left I’m thinking good god there’s that much more to write about still like oh I can’t handle it right. I wouldn’t doubt it. A month later people have to go at their own pace so I’m not telling you what pace to go. But I will just encourage you a lot of people are kind of surprised that I guess how quickly I’ve been able to change my thoughts and feelings about some things that. Look Like. It’s a. See it was 2000 when I started when I got became suicidal and then it was 20 16 15 2015 when I left. So it took me you know quite a few years to start getting healthy emotionally and mentally.

[00:22:49] And then even then when we officially disassociated and left in September of 2015 I still on some levels thought they had the truth and kind of planned on kind of going out and being almost like an independent witness like just being I mean I wasn’t going to go to Keenum Hall or anything but I kind of still believed in a lot of the things and I’ll tell you I the only way that I know to do anything in my life the only way around is through. And that means for me if I’m going to get past something I have to. I literally immerse myself in it. And so every day when I would come home from work I would be on I hate even using the word apostate websites but I would be on different Web sites for Jehovah’s Witnesses reading and participating and asking questions and just diving in head first. Every day I got a crisis of conscience somebody had on YouTube and I ripped the audio from it and I would listen to it while I was at work. You can’t for me. I could not. The program slowly. Because every time I would get away from the deprogramming I would start thinking oh maybe they’re right. What about this. What about that. Yeah. And I just had to keep pushing until I examined everything so thoroughly that it has completely changed me as far as the way I see all of that stuff. And it’s a grieving process. It’s like anything else.

[00:24:40] I mean there’s going to be appointed time where you’re sad for everything you’ve lost there’s going to be another point in time where you are pissed off. Yes yeah. It’s I’m right there with you. I think my conversion was actually much swifter. It’s just that my life changed so quickly which I’ll get into that when we tell the story but I’m with you. And to me it’s just such a weighty happy book. Listen to a few podcasts which is also part of the interview. It’s just one of those things where the conversion of my mind was just such like even your podcast really really helped me a lot because like rey friends and like you I don’t know if you’ve ever listened to the critical thinker podcast. Yeah. Lady C. NJT 80. I right away knew. Oh. These were good witnesses. And I hate to use that term. Good or bad. But what I felt was the right. I was like Oh my goodness. A Bethyl like that impressed me. Now you’ve got my attention. Plus they just reek of people who aren’t bitter grinding axes railing away like there’s a lot of bitterness out there just for so so. But that wasn’t the message that was speaking to my heart it was. These guys are trying to help people and they have done. I know what research sounds like they’ve done their research and you could tell they are so lakes up sticky and he would and his first few podcasts JT and see what I liked about him whether it was like 10 minutes long. It was like a sort. It was like oh your bible study had such quick. Here’s the topic.

[00:26:18] We’re not going to get off topic and there’s a lot of topic and he just hit the approach shared a few like damning scriptures or things of their own from previous literature. And he thought reanimates that’s quite your list. After a 10 minute presentation of his against something the unwitnessed if you want to call it that. It was like I was left with an impression and then as they got into their longer like hour long podcasts like I thought these guys are they’re right they know what they’ve been through. And this is the guy who when he shares like the behind the scenes stuff happens at Bethyl or assembly halls and they count the money and pay payroll. And you start to realize oh man I know and what I loved about it too is I’m very rural Minnesota like I don’t want to say backwoods everybody else in my area’s backwoods hunting fishing Scandia. Blaze orange. All that I am different from my area which is one of the things that appeals to me about who I am but in my area I’m still not exposed to that. It’s good to hear that BTC and JT Who are you know very urban and have like well Kakuna most of the city folks just like to say it’s the same stuff everywhere and that’s awesome. I never thought about that perspective. But of course that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. Remove it from different perspectives and to see that it wasn’t just you. It was everywhere.

[00:27:39] Yeah and it wasn’t like well maybe if I lived in a hall where like when I went to New York I was like how many people like you have a year’s text and a bazillion languages up here. Be like how many people get in this hall. He goes It’s easy for him to be anonymous. I hate to go against him again. That’s just like grinds of course you could hide New York City just a few blocks over there is another kingdom hall and this would say I met this one now and people are always coming and going and all I used to go to the three o’clock meeting but work the schedule unless you could make an excuse for skipping out on the one o’clock and I just felt like such a tumbleweed. Like traveling around the world as he does and he’s never stayed in one place long enough to be appointed as a ministerial servant there just. I just. My gut tells me there’s others out there you know. I mean I can’t say for certain but I will tell you with 99 percent certainty that that guy what he did to you was crafted was well crafted and you don’t get to that point. I wouldn’t think on your first time that guy has done this before and he will and he may still do it. And that’s that’s a scary thought. Yeah. I don’t know that there’s a weirdness to it that like the analogy I always use is I don’t know which one is better and this is from an e-mail I first sent Steve when I was describing the thing is I think in his own weird way though to that he was partially I think he was gay first of all at nonpracticing gay and then the truth or the organization they make no allowance for that.

[00:29:18] So he was told put those feelings to bed will fix your brain and your system. So maybe he had been keeping it at bay and then he met some cheery eyed like naive boy like me enough where I think there is even though there was a good age difference. I do. It’s part of me says maybe I was this saw pray like because he was in a way in love with me and I was the one like I believe a lot of these guys are creeps to where I was I just don’t really want to say a special case. But like their expert profiles like where they can you can put them make a creep watch a bunch of kids at the playground and somehow they have this innate sense to say that’s the one who won’t tell anybody. You know that’s the loner kid that’s the one who you know just like I don’t know how. I can’t tell if it’s easier to be the one off and then say at least I took all of it. Or if it’s easier to digest by saying I was just another house in the dorms path of a tornado and like unfortunately there’s a lot of us out there. I think I think it’s just different. I don’t I don’t know that one is I mean statistically it’s better if it was only one person that he hurt. You know that’s from a various statistical way of looking at it. But you know in the end I think what matters most is not him but you know I think I just think it yeah. Part of me wants to see it burn to the ground though.

[00:30:57] Like I know I agree on. I because he’s still traveling out there and he has because he’s so likable and travelled so much he could literally quit his job live wherever he wanted and he would have just friends and couches to stay on the rest of his traveling wandering time any time you you mention him in any kingdom all they say oh wait. Can’t wait. He was back and I’m thinking if any of you people like I want to see like it’s one of the few things where I would chase it doggedly like just say you know like I don’t trust that the elders would ever help me anymore. You know they said they would I think it’s me. If I have to track him down and blast him and I could find his nephew on Instagram and just like I’ve told a few people where if if he didn’t know that when he went back to talk to you. It’s nice. I heard this about you were you know like I don’t know if that ever happened but a guy who travels like he does and him and the way he invites people to do things and the charisma and everything. I really don’t see him being a person who only did this to one person. Yeah. The you know the evidence the circumstantial evidence does not look good. I just I just don’t know what to say. I don’t want to chase this guy.

[00:32:24] Yeah that’s where things like that when I told the elders here even like lately as a social person I said well we had an issue come up and I went and talked to them about it and I said it’s the same stuff all over same stuff over because you know there was a situation that happened we got wind of it. We tried to alert them even though that this fellowship person that’s a scary thing where you say this is happening in your hall and they say you’re bitter we’re not going to hear your opinion because they can just broad stroke. It doesn’t matter. And when I went in I heard basically the guy was on the platform. I said he’s up there right now. So I stayed up to the meeting those cats are heroes. It’s the same garbage over and over and over like people you like a slap on the wrist nothing ever happens it’s like CNN and then that’s when they said wait wait wait. What tell us what the what do you mean with that. And so I called them this is what happened they said he never told us that. So right away I kind of said for their sake I was glad that they didn’t know that at least yeah. But then I went back to talk like well we’ll help you try and find him and when we left here we put this out and we can tell you this much we put on his publisher card like a little red flag that said shows an unusual interest in the young men and the congregation you know and a sense of that will follow him where he goes. Is there any way to follow him where he goes to know where he is like what if it doesn’t happen in a congregation.

[00:33:38] What if it’s some non witness kid that’s never going to approach an elder. So you won’t have a second witness like that and they’re like Well as you know good point you know that like. And they said well we will try and help you find them which I’m sure shut me up you know and got me out of their face. But I don’t know that it will ever really be done unless I do it myself and then the question of was it worth it. Where do I put my efforts that I feel. How much time do I want to invest just to get vengeance versus justice kind of thing. Well and I don’t know because it’s not just it’s not even just vengeance versus justice. It’s I’m sure you on some level want to protect the other kids other young people out there as well. You know. So I don’t I don’t know. I mean you’re essentially being put in a place as an investigator and you’re not necessarily equipped to do. I had my chance and I’m told them you’re you go home and I’ll when you as you though even at that I mean even if you went to the elders it would have been your word versus his. And he wasn’t going to cop to it. That’s true. And so even if you had done everything you could have in the in the moment unfortunately there are people out there that are very good doing very evil things ands I’m not saying it shouldn’t be pursued but I’m just saying that sometimes they are good enough at the games they play.

[00:35:37] To where they are ahead of where their victims would naturally be developmentally as far as trying to play that game with them to beat them. And I think that you know you know maybe you can go talk to you know like a real investigator or you know maybe you can go to the local police and talk to an investigator and say look you know how could I. Is there any way that I could because I’m worried that this is continuing to happen. How could this be pursued. Is there any way I could get information from someone or something I could do. I don’t know. I mean that’s a long shot. Sure. No. And that’s the thing that I don’t know. Like for me there’s there’s whether or not I have a form of recourse. I wanted someone to believe me. And then the thing was I went and I told the elders like of course of course when I went in I told the elders they said Oh we we we never had we never told us that David will look back the records because we thought we had talked to you and I said no because I came to the meeting and I said Well did he talk to you. Because I was surprised to still hear him commenting. I figure at least you would have a proof and been able to say he shouldn’t be allowed some privileges. But here he is current thing and I thought like he didn’t tell them anything and then I came to the others and I said What did he tell you in this very careful like elderly like we’re handling it. But he told us there was a closeness that he got misconstrued.

[00:37:13] And I thought OK so like. OK. So that’s what he told them. Got it. And maybe I felt like even that that was something I didn’t it raise a ruckus about. So he gave them at least they had a conversation where I just mean not putting a stop to it mean that it was a closeness misconstrued. I didn’t think so and I have the assertiveness now to say no that’s wrong. But the thing was I felt like no one came to me and I told this to the elders in the recent revisit of this like I was mad that none of you came to me no one whatever. I said where was my side. How come. How was I represented in his confession that shows something that I was OK like whether or not like David. How are you doing with all this. We know you’re disfellowshipped but it sounds like an awful thing that happened but I just felt like these guys and that’s the thing about where I live the kingdom how I’ve been. They literally knew my parents which had issues. So it’s like easy to just write me off as all David’s from that family tree and they’ve known me since I was a baby. And everything I’ve ever done has probably been Dragonair front of these guys the last 25 years Samael there’s I’m pretty sure with a few scenarios up then up and down. But I feel like I’m too easy for them to just write off because they’re familiar with it. And it was like you know just somebody like I don’t know I don’t even know what I wanted.

[00:38:34] I just felt I was ultimately they don’t they. They weren’t interested in pursuing it. No bungled situation after bungled situation after a bungled situation is all I have ever seen from these particular elders. And so it was for me like no and I’m thinking oh you’re telling me Jehovah has the pulse on his fingers and this kind of situation at least his way out of his control. I started to really have doubts that I thought there’s no way that he’s God or something was blocking his holy spirit from these people because this is just aren’t acceptable. There’s this God would be real like oh how appalled at what’s going to be like. Yeah but it’s a lot to take in your rally and like you said you’d go swings you have moments of nothing but heart and then you have moments of bitterness and you just say you know what like outside you I believe you. So I don’t I don’t you know I think those people are above their grade. You know they’re not yeah they’re not. It’s not within them to to to be that person. Jehovah’s Witnesses it seems like something that I’ve noticed is that honestly empathy has been stripped from them. They do not own empathy. They do not know what empathy is. They are so narcissistic and so caught up in their own things that they do not have the ability to take the perspective of anyone else. And which is I mean an easy definition of a narcissist is someone that cannot take the perspective of anyone else. And I mean I know I was like that for a long time.

[00:40:23] I had those tendencies. I was made like that. Honestly I was the product of two narcissists and raised in an environment full of narcissus and the organization strips your feelings that strips your humanity. And that’s why they can’t tolerate they can’t listen to other people’s perspectives. They have to call you an apostate. And they have to make you evil because they can’t listen to what you have to say it threatens the and’s systematically. It appears just this is just my armchair psychological professional opinion. Systematically they strip good human beings and they attract not great human beings who are Narcissus and they strip their empathy and basic humanity from them bit by bit over time. And then when they’re presented with something like what happened to you they can only think of themselves themself. The organization for Jehovah’s name in the reproach it would bring. And they cannot see you as a hurting human being that has come before them and address you as such. Yeah they don’t have the emotional tools. It has been taken from them and it’s a very sad thing that results in a lot of people being hurt. And I know that if I had continued in their religion or culture if I had continued in it as dead as I was inside I wish I could have been that old. Now listen to me now listen to my podcast. I am not that person that is not who I started in this world to be Jehovah’s Witnesses absolutely robbed me of that part of my humanity and it’s only six seven years to get it back. That’s amazing.

[00:42:38] It’s amazing to put it so eloquently like just like it’s what they do. It’s what opened my eyes which I think is why I can present it like that because it’s what I saw it was the thing that woke me up was whoa there isn’t any love here. These people are mean. They’re mean to the people they go to the door and knock on this person’s door and then say nasty hateful things about that person when they leave or want to live in that person’s house because it’s a nice house when Armageddon comes and kills them and their family they can’t even have any feeling for that person that they just talked to at the door. They just want their freaking house. How gross is that. Yeah. And the funny thing is I’ve never like to even hear that. Now I’m instantly appalled. I’ve heard that 10000 times before. You know and it did it upon me that then that is a shocking epiphany to realize that I probably once shared in such banter like ah it just that’s really I don’t know. It feels like someone you don’t know or recognize but like looking at old photos when you had maybe you know what all that hair got. Who is that young guy. Whatever it may be 50 years from now. Something totally unrecognizable. Yeah. It’s terrifying. I mean we clean houses and we clean nice homes. And I couldn’t have been standing on the doorstep of one of those people that we clean for one of these genuine nice people that we’ve gotten to know over all these years.

[00:44:28] And I could have gone up to their door with my little suit on my pretenses of love and presented them with a watchtower and awake magazine and maybe they weren’t interested and maybe they turned maybe they were having a bad day and turned me down kind of curtly or they just you know turned me down period and I could have walked away and wiped the dust off my feet. Gone my way. And you know just you know screw them they don’t want to hear this whatever it ends. Or just you know walked away and said well they’ll feel differently and when Armageddon comes won’t they. No sir. Those horrible things we used to say to ourselves. And those are nice people. And all I could have seen was oh they have a nice house and maybe when Jehovah kills them at Armageddon I can live there what an awful thing to even think. Yeah I hear they actually literally utter it at times walking away from a door. And I mean if that just doesn’t show them what they do to people. I mean to me that’s it. In a nutshell they completely strip you of your ability to see other human beings as human beings. They rob you of your ability to see your own self as a human being. And so you have no empathy for others you don’t have it for yourself either. And then you blame yourself for everything. I want to thank you for listening to David’s story today. Please subscribe so that you can get all of these stories automatically as they’re released. Each time please also show David and other support by going to my Web site.

[00:46:08] It’s shunned podcast dot com and if you go to the episodes page there you can leave a comment for any of the people who are telling their story. They can not only read but they can also respond to your comments. So just go to shunned podcasts dot com and go to the episodes page and you’ll see an individual post for each story and you can reply and comments on those stories. You can also find links to things on there that have helped each person as they were waking up and leaving the cult. If you want to hear my personal story you can listen to a podcast called this J.W. life or go to the Web site. This J.W. life. And that was my personal story. It’s a nine part series. And you can if you’re not familiar with the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses you can really learn a lot there about how they function what they teach. Alongside my personal story one final way to show support is to leave a review on iTunes. Just leaving a five star review leaving your personal comments. You know whatever it is that that impacted you this helps other people to find the podcast so that they can get the help that they might need as well. Now normally I release a new podcast at the beginning of every month. But coming up in March the beginning of the month happens to be my wife and I it’s our 18th anniversary so we will be celebrating that. And I’ve also spent a lot of time working on David’s story. So what I’m going to do is actually I’m going to skip.

[00:48:01] There will not be an episode at the beginning of March. And I know that may may be disappointing for some but I need to get some time. I’ve got a lot of people that want to be interviewed by the way. If you want to see your story go to shun podcast dot com click on the Contact page there fill out that form I’ll get it and we can work on getting your story together as well. But I need to get some interviews done so that I have more content so that I have more episodes to put out there along with the fact that you know my anniversary is coming up. We will be spending some time with that. It’s also just a busy time of year at the beginning of the year with taxes and everything else in our business. So yeah there will be no episode for March. I hate to break the news to you but there will be. We will have episodes again at the beginning of April and that will allow me some time to get some done so that I can maybe even get a little bit ahead. That would be nice. That’s kind of how I started. But other things have come up so I hate to break that news to you but we’ll see you again in April. And as I always end all these episodes love others do no harm and go be happy.

David Part 2.mp3

[00:00:01] Welcome to the shunned podcast. Today’s episode is the story of David. Now this episode and the ones that follow are going to be a little different. David had a lot to share. And so this episode is actually going to be his episode is going to be three parts. There will be two regular episodes and then I’m going to throw in a bonus episode as well. The bonus will consist of some things that we talked about really before we got to David’s story before we really started outlining everything and putting it in order. We had a conversation that I think was pretty important and that some people need to hear and I hope that it helps others. I will warn you that some of the story that we’re about to delve into is intense. It does deal with the matters of sexual abuse this is a very important topic. The Watchtower organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses has been under fire recently through some documents that showed up on a faith leak site. Through that story being picked up by Newsweek by the Daily Mail through the Australian Royal Commission through the process that were held at war with the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses in New York this is a topic that was not talked about inside of the organization as we were Jehovah’s Witnesses. This is something that for an organization that claims to be led by God was largely ignored and that it has taken outside influences to explain.

[00:01:51] For science as for psychologists for four therapists to get to the root of things like sexual abuse how it affects people how predators really are wired and and how they act. And for some reason the organization led by God supposedly claiming to be led by God did not understand this. However these things have come to light and this is a topic that needs to be discussed. It needs to be brought to light so that people can heal. And so that’s a lot of people can know that they’re not alone. So David was courageous enough to share his story so that he could help others feel less alone. And I want to. David was gracious enough to to do this so that I could share it with you. These episodes are going to be a little different. They’re not the normal way that stories are told on here. They will be more conversational. It will be a conversation between him and I and he’ll hopefully you’ll take away quite a bit from it. I hope that this information or this story that you don’t just come away with it let’s not boil it down to just being this one aspect you know aspect of sexual abuse and the conversations surrounding it. David lived a lifetime of experiences in just a short time. There is a lot to learn here David is a beautiful soul for allowing himself to be vulnerable and to express these things and then I mean you just see throughout his story that he’s a pretty awesome person a great human being. And sadly well maybe not sadly but there is a lot of the most sincere people in the organization known as Jehovah’s Witnesses that leave.

[00:03:49] There was something that I’ve noticed since getting out and that and learning the stories of people that it is a lot of the people who are the most heartfelt and sincere that end up leaving the organization known as the truth so I want to thank David for sharing his life with me so that I can share it with you. And without further ado let’s go ahead and get to David’s story. I’m not a high school. My family in 2002 moves away. The years of 2002 2003 and 2004 is like my introduction into young manhood if you will. And it’s also like it’s hard for me to put any of these pieces together because they’re all like a chessboard moving at the same time. But I just see that the whole thing a turbulent time a turbulent in terms of who am I. Where is my place in this. What am I doing. You know and then my family moved. I felt good because I was out from my mom’s watchful eye and I could be a young man. Hey I got a place of my own with some roommates and that was all very good. And some said material. Simultaneously happy happening was in 2003. That was when my dad died and I was living with the same roommates and that would have been October 30th 2003. Yeah and Lamber the elde I was getting ready for service and the elder had come by and there was during the CEO visit actually so he was there to do and they came up and told me that my dad had passed like eight thirty or something right before service. I just remember making my plans. Things are different today.

[00:05:40] I had calls with family and they were very sympathetic. But you know he was working on a car and that Jack slipped out and it killed him. And I just remember feeling like oh my dad’s gone. But there was this weirdness to it because I didn’t really know who I was supposed to be missing at that time. But I knew something of great magnitude had happened. And I remember also at the same time my girlfriend at the time was just he was on again off again uptown and it was such a crazy world for me because I was 19. And to be dating this girl I had never had a girlfriend before. I had no business dating. I didn’t know enough about who I was to actually pick a good partner. But here’s the funny thing. Like the witnesses put such stock in titles you know wear off. Her dad doesn’t like me. He doesn’t think I’m ready or mature enough say that to my Pioneer face. And then all of a sudden he has to say you know as dumb as that sounds. I was 19. He should have sat us down and said you’re an adult and you’re an adult. I can’t stop this. I don’t have to like it but there was like this I have to take a backseat because he’s spiritually ranks higher than me or something like some stupidity like that where these people had lived so much life they should have just said I don’t care. I know you’re an adult and I know you’ve got this title attached to your name. But spiritual qualifications do not make you a good partner for such as such.

[00:07:12] This isn’t you like I would probably rebell and get through it anyway but I just think that that was so crazy that I basically was able to tell people I was mature enough to be at 19 because I was a pioneer a questioner question you can’t question my immaturity of Jehovah approved me to this standing when in reality now I look back and I think you know the brothers in New York probably just got a letter recommended from my elders that says David wants to give use 60 or 70 hours of his time voluntarily I’m sure they said it’s great. Pat him on the head tell him yes he Jehovah approves. Like oh what else are they going to say. If there’s no privilege to it they’re just like he wants to give us his time yet you know placate him and think they prayed over your individual and Joe is like a holy spirit down upon your application so that you you were confirmed as a pioneer. Yeah. Makes you wonder if anyone’s ever been turned down and wants to give them that much time. Was their hideout. Many have yeah. Anyway so I’ve got that going on. And it was on again off again and I’m starting to get fed up with the whole dating this girl I’m mad. And I remember when my dad had passed away she got wind of it naturally is where it always spreads. It started sending me text about how sympathetic she was and she was so from class.

[00:08:39] And I remember at that time feeling like Please do not be using this as a springboard to get us back into each other where I can’t I’m volleyball right now because of this. And I would wish your well wishes. But like if this is something that’s going to just get us texting and talking again where I let my guard down and I get back into that mess that I just know is not what we need there. And what I need specifically that was like a turbulent time where I couldn’t tell what everything had an angle and I didn’t know of like what was going on in it. I missed you know I missed out on ever really getting to know my dad and he had thought he was anointed and I had heard like ran up to his death when we went to the funeral. It was like sitting there and they never talked about him being anointed and then you find out that like I guess they weren’t even taking his comments at the time of his death in his kingdom hall where he raised his hand they would just pass over him. I remember thinking what a nice witness you know where all his worldly brothers and sisters were there and they got to hear what you know Gary’s hope for the future was and how he viewed the world and God and spirituality and his path and his chosen life. And I felt like this the perfect thing what a good witness for all these family that I don’t really know. Their faces look the same.

[00:09:52] Their eyes look like my dad when they smile I can see that we’re family but I don’t know them like my mom and dad got divorced when I was young and they weren’t witnesses and they were his side which I live with her. So why would I. There was very little contact with them ever. But I still felt like I wanted to help them. And then now I realize if any of those people had like really known probably how my guy was you know his hope for the future and how the people viewed him up until his death it was kind of like I don’t know. I just cannot sit with me. Well that was portrayed as this thing at a funeral and like behind the scenes machinations that the hall was will move pretend like it doesn’t exist because we can’t trust his comments anymore. He’s too off the wall you know. Oh yeah. And I just felt so there’s a lot yeah I feel I just felt like between my Dad my girlfriend and everything else that was going crazy. My family had moved away. Steve A my greatest role model influence at that time. He lives about an hour and a half away. I still make pretty regular trips to visit him. And the good thing was that the girl I was dating was going to his hall so when I was visiting him. That’s how we kind of got close. The girl. But one that fell apart. Steve was still there and he’s like Ardy I’m sorry. We saw this happening but you know we thought we’d give you your jaw the length of leash to be your own man and learning who goes by. I wish you would have asked me what we could have thought about.

[00:11:18] He was an elder at her hall at the time in I just remember feeling that they had friends and store supported our this 2003 period also was the first time I went out to New York by myself. The very first time with Stevie was right after Stevie’s wedding and from the wedding the two of us went out there together and knowing without incident it ever happened. But then Steve said you know I’d like to bring it back where it’s just you know you and I and I can show you more the city and a longer thing. And when I went out there the second time everything went just normally as planned. You know we went out in service we met people we went to you know visited Bethel and all that. And then I remember this was the first incident where he had molested me. Was the night before the flight back home. We were in New York. I don’t remember the time or the days exactly but it was either July or August and it was just unbearably hot. We were sleeping on the floor of the apartment because I over the wood was cool but no sweat soaked into wood. So I was laying in my own sweat. And the fan was isolating and I had fallen asleep some time. I mean he was kind of up on the futon couch that put fold out nearby. But we were in this one room where we’re still just really really high and sometime in the middle in a war. I awoke I became awake and I was aware that his hand had slipped in like an open fly boxers like just like you’d slide it into your pocket I guess it was on my private parts.

[00:13:02] And I remember like just wanting to freak out and die but feeling like I got no answer I got nothing for this right now. Whatever is happening. Is beyond me and am I dreaming is this real. Is this like the heat nightmares or something. And I was so hot inside you like I was tingling No I really wanted to just implode like disappear. And I couldn’t I couldn’t even make sense of it. And I remember thinking has this been 10 seconds or 20 minutes. I have no idea I just kind of came to it it’s happening and it was like the most crazy thing you could think that someone I trusted in a in a year and like the big city is right outside I’m far from home. I’m here all alone. And this is the person I really like. You almost feel guilty for even thinking that this is real and happening to you. How could I say that about my friend Jane and naturalistic thing. But you feel it and you just thought go back to sleep go back to sleep go back to sleep. And I couldn’t move. And I couldn’t say no I couldn’t speak up. And I was afraid that he was going to hear like or just notice I was awake maybe my breathing was faster my heart was pounding so loud I thought for sure he could hear you can hear you know I’m up. He knows I’m awake. I’m going to be found out. If I can lay here pretend I’m asleep. You can just go on like it never happened or something.

[00:14:34] Remember that going to cut myself. No no no I understand. I remember the day like it kind of started to drift in the apartment I after I had rolled over I had kind of to my mind if I pulled it out that I mustered enough courage to just act like I had rolled over my mostly and kind of got to my stomach where it’s over it’s not happening anymore and I had just rolled over. I was out of the reach and I was everything else. But there isn’t like I didn’t go back to sleep and just lay there thinking I remember slowly becoming aware that like there was an awful leading feeling because of the heat and it was white but it wasn’t like visible I can just hear it for hours. And it started to take shape. And then other things in the rooms that take shape and then light blue light coming in then you can see everything. And I remember we went to the airport. He walked me down the terminal like he had paid for the ticket and got me out there and everything so I felt you know very I don’t know I felt very like I had to be grateful and gracious. But something had changed. And so I stand by and I walked away went to the plane. And then he called myself shortly thereafter and said what was with that. Yes we weird. You know they’re weird today and you leave and say goodbye. Give me a hug you just left me there at the one where like people without a ticket are allowed past the point and it’s called by Assad.

[00:16:07] I remember apologizing for acting weird and tried to pat Russia off as I’m like yeah I should have said goodbye like I was jilted what I should. I had every right to say Euroleague anything I would’ve wanted to do well within my rights to say or not say at that point. But I remember just giving him the easy Oh I just had a bad dream last night and I’m just going a bit off you know which. That was the point. I think that dream excuse entered my brain because that’s what I had passed off sure according to it. And I tried to convince myself for a long time that they were dreams and that it was just this maybe I was weird maybe there was something wrong with me. I don’t know if I’m gay or not. I don’t. I was aroused but I came to in that state. I don’t know how it was. Did you think I enjoyed it like this is like so messed up on a million levels and I don’t know. Nothing could have prepared me for what to do or how to feel or even that in my imagination. That would be a thing. And then are going to internalize it and it’s easier to think that if it’s you that you must do something then it is time to really give credence to the fact of how out of control that situation was and that someone else could do that to you. Yeah. And the thing is I like Kim too like you as a friend. You know what to think about someone you like. You think I must be wrong.

[00:17:40] They make me do good. There there. Personally I enjoy in every other moment of my life except for that. Well it’s a big one. You know that’s how a predator would groom someone. I remember thinking about it where nothing happened for a long long time and then my brother was getting baptized. I can remember the year but we were at a convention where we all know baptisms Jehovah’s Witnesses we bundle up together to share share beds and Jonah and his friend Ryan and also to our congregation were in one of the beds. We had a double clean young single guys called conventional splitting costs. And again Steve and I were in the same bed. And I remember like and remember this time it had been so long that I had really gotten good at convincing myself what had happened in New York was some sort of maybe dream right. You would surely have happened again since then. So at this point I was not afraid of that even being a possibility it was like a one off. And then that night the night before Jonas baptism started happening again in that bed. And I remember just again thinking freeze if I can find a convenient way to roll over at the sleep cars sluggishly just like make it stop make it stop and I’m praying to Jawaher that you know how someone pulled the fire alarm even if it’s a prank or have something an emergency.

[00:19:14] If I had any voice I would scream out in Ryan and John Boehner were in the bed next to me and we would cause a scene or maybe the most unlikely thing have a fire truck try to the building or a meteor or something. Make this stop and it’s happening again. And now that was the first moment the real dread of it confirmed the first one. Yeah and really reminded me that no this was the real thing. It’s real and it’s happening again. It was to get a conviction. And I remember at that point it was easy to move on. There was about Jonah he was getting baptized and so the attention was off of me. And I just wanted that I wanted invisibility of having the attention off of me. So all this was going on in my personal life and then I didn’t have a bad relationship. I must have all this right start. There’s worldly girls and I’m very curious and to be honest not produce sexually charged person I have a high drive and years ago the first time I looked through the baptism questions you the elders the third series they had asked me Was there anything that would prevent you from going back to getting baptized. Can you think of anything he said. Well I confessed to him that I had masturbated and had a problem with that and I remember that was terribly humiliating but also feeling like very proud that I had those words left my lips. I did the right thing and then he thanked me. He told me while that that’s something I nobody can ever know that that’s only you. That’s between you it’s a private matter and I would have had nothing to.

[00:21:05] So you’re coming forward as that shows me you’ve got a good heart and you’re honest beyond belief that you can go with free of getting caught like on your own. Confess something that personal. We’re going to do all we can to help you and we’re going to get you through this letter and I’ll talk to everybody else so we’ll see where your baptism stands this moment. I remember like a little bit later I got a call from him in my step dad took an they had turned to me and he said well he says that at this time you won’t be getting baptized David because of the issue of masturbation but he said because of your honesty you will go far in this organization and they want to help you get past it. And I always felt like that I hung on to that like all foreigners organization. The elders really like I did do the right thing. And I remember like this as a side tangent backwards. But the late are they can help me. Good. I’m going to be done with this. I’m sick of having a good period of seven days and then relapse and then you get it you know you feel like you’re making progress and it’s real accidents relapse and then it’s Oh you mean like every brother in the organization. Yes. And I would imagine to me I felt like I had the worst case in the world and there was another that not allowed to talk about it because you know everyone had aimed for it. Yes in my private life. This is going to sound awful but being completely honest like there were conventions where I was in that place for eight hours a day the convention bathroom. I didn’t care.

[00:22:41] I was very sexually charged as a young man and they can give them all that’s not off limits. They’re like we we we laugh about it. There will be a lot of witnesses if they hear this though just think oh I know right. Kind of what witness he was that bad witness who gave you that if you would even Sacko it. But my struggle was a real thing and I hated every time it was happening. Like I needed it and I wanted them to help me. And what they do they Xerox some garbage out of like a watchtower article 4B and then told me to beat the young people ass book. And I thought we I thought they were going to meet with me and we’ll pray over me or tell me about their personal experiences or something that would really help you know for days. There’s your answer. This is not a good friend. I could have printed off something like this at home. That’s their help. I remember very let down by that. And so like in my mind I thought Paul thanks everybody for all that help you like God loves a Xeroxed and stapled together five sheets of pages. Like I just felt like there was no one really cared to help me. They just wanted to say please don’t come back and tell us you still have this issue because we want about Tyce. That’s what they were hoping just put it behind you. Yeah let’s go forward. Not that I actually was struggling with something and the emotions hurt or anything.

[00:24:06] You know heaven forbid they they let you know that you’re not alone you know that those men could have on on a on a real level and let you know that it was something that they struggled with or whatever but instead they left you on an island and gave you a sterile article from Jehovah’s Witness propaganda. And the funny thing was though for who I was at that time as upset down there was I decided I was going to take it to heart and read the young people last book which to make matters worse starts off with this the Apostle Paul has an affliction in his flesh does what he doesn’t want it to do. He uses it was to do this but his flesh is weak and keeps doing that. And that was like mantra and I remember when one of the elders had asked me about that and I had said well the Apostle Paul he had a problem we don’t know what it was but his flesh was weak and he said that and the guy’s honest to god reaction was he laughed like chortle like a quick snort like I’m sure it was masturbation just not life. I mean I mean I’ve made this like I’ve taken your crummy article to heart here and that was part of it. That meant something to me was that even the Apostle Paul had a weakness in his flesh and me for having this weakness. Like I can take. I identify with something. And going like. I just felt I wasn’t taken serious and there was not the heart and tenderness that I felt should have been shown by a shepherd. Oh and for whatever that’s worth.

[00:25:38] Fast forward years later I pushed the boundaries. I was very good at not committing adultery or fornication because I did value my virginity but I was very into girls of course and that I let things happen were loose conduct and some kissing you know heavy petting that got out hand. I of course went and turned myself in to the elders about it and I remember feeling like this will be it for me. I finally get to learn my lesson and I told them everything. I hit rock bottom and they sent me out of the room Metcher judicial meeting and they asked me about it and they said everyone. I remember when they sent me out of the room. I went upstairs and the rest of the hall was dark because it was late at night. Lights were off they were using the hall meeting hall. They were just using the one room and I sat on the stairs just crying and eating everything and laid back like you know sitting on the stairs and laid back on the floor. I started looking up and in my mind I have a very like analog Anna analogy’s and visual mind and like interpreting things I remember seeing the exit sign lit up in bright red and then the speaker and the voice comes out of it in the Kingdom Hall and an air vent that moves the temperature of everything and I don’t like to air it is like Jehovah’s voice spearow the speaker is like his voice and you know all this is moving these elders right now and he’s using their voice and his Holy Spirit to guide this decision. And here’s the exit sign.

[00:27:12] I’m on my way out. They’re going to establish it. Me and I just do it in case of a. I went down and Millais summoned me back to the room and I just knew it. And then even though it wasn’t fornication or adultery. They told me it was loose contact that there was a pattern of and it wasn’t turning around or the conversion of it like I was. Instead of running from bad things the way Joseph did I was pushing the envelope getting as close as I could without crossing a line and such a pattern shows that you know I should be disfellowshipped and so I felt like I finally got what I deserve. But it was the it was the reset button I needed. It was the start over I had needed and I was I can learn. Now I can really feel like I can. I know Orlick instead of floundering in this middle ground I’ve bottomed out and I could start climbing back up rebuilding my life. It was just a crazy time because now this all Shippen everyone knew I was pretty popular in my house.

[00:28:16] A lot of the younger ones in the crowd and people don’t know there was weird things took as my best friend at one of the things that I find hard to as we had before I was disfellowshipped like he he and I had tried pot with one of the neighbor guys in a neighboring apartment complex once and I don’t like drugs or alcohol I’m very anti substance but you’re curious about these things and my buddy had told me that he had tried several things in the past like whippets and other likeT.G. experience stuff and I’m okay well if you do and I’ll go along I can learn. I remember doing it the first time I tried pot and I remember feeling this like I’m not a smoker. I don’t know how to inhale. So I did it wrong because this feeling this can’t be will all the rage is about. This is the dumbest thing ever and there is no joy there’s no joy in this. This is. This is not what everyone thinks is so funny and they all talk about it. So then later I talk and he is like whoa. Go try together make sure you in. We tried it again and it was the same thing and I was like that was when it really hit me like oh yeah this is just what it is. It sucks it’s like not it’s not for me. Drugs are not for me that’s just super relaxed thing like I don’t need the ultimate I have a good time. I felt better before all this and it’s new. There’s nothing about this that is worth pursuing or paying any extra money than being the normal non-smoker filled air I was breathing 20 minutes ago and that was when I made that decision. I remember I just fell shit also feeling like I never told him. You know I never felt like my soul ship was also paying for the state. He gets a fresh start here because now I’ve taken it and and you know that secrets goes with me and someone’s paid for my actions and it’s me and everyone gets a fresh start. Everyone gets a fresh slate.

[00:30:10] It’s crazy as that sounds. That’s how I felt like it was the absolute best thing for me that I could be disfellowshipped and just start over. Get back and like Paul everything’s forgiven everything’s back to square one. The reality of how my whole shipment went. There wasn’t much different. I eventually had a worldly girlfriend but it was never sexual again. But my virginity did still mean something to me and I remember trying to convert her all the time and talking about glitter and beatings and I also had a pretty full time job where I would show up to a lot of the meetings in my work uniform and have to go right back to it and the elders eventually you know they watch my pattern for like a year and a half and during that year and a half like I’m very into music and there’s a lot of songs that meant a lot to me and like you lose all your friends. Like I think my whole having that girlfriend at all was just you need a dope conversation someone to talk to you to go and see was more than anything because it wasn’t a sexual relationship. From what I remember just like there’s a song by Belle and Sebastian called the boy done again and that’s a brilliant listen it’s sad as heck. There’s a writer who says hang your head in shame and cry your life away and I can’t even tell you how many times. Like I would sit in my apartment singing that loudly just bawling and pounding my chest feeling like it was just anthemic.

[00:31:42] It was an anthem for me to feel like the boy didn’t run again. Hang my head in shame and cry my life away. And I just wanted it to be better. I wanted it to be better. I thought that what I was doing was going to pay for every war. But then I see them around town and they’ve all known me and they see me as well the girlfriend and I know that they assume that it’s a full relationship as if anyone else would have in the world. And I was thinking you know I see the pain in their faces and some of them have the courage to smile at me because they think encouraging me will keep me coming down the right path and some just give me that Teflon glass that slides past you and it never locks on at all. And then I feel like all this shunning and I’m hurting a lot of them are best friends and they’re hurting me they’re hurt I’m hurting them and this is the only time alive I was ever seriously they were ever pondered suicide. Was that first disfellowshipping. Because also in the apartment I lived in now Steve B lived in the apartment behind me. He had moved to Widener. He had contracted leukemia and like Minnesota has a lot of good health benefits and so he had made his home in New York. Now to Minnesota and lived in the apartment complex behind me and there was another incidence. I’ve already gone into a lot of detail on those incidents. So the third one largely the same but it happened in my apartment and raped.

[00:33:09] I was disfellowshipped but one day after he had left a note on my door or something and I went and I talked to him and I told him I brought it up. I said I’m going to bring this up so third time when this is when you are disfellowshipped This is what I am disfellowshipped. Well what happened was after you. Well there’s a weirdness to it too because the story goes it’s not the story of how it was. I was in my apartment and I left one day and I noticed these headlights behind me. Right. And so I would have no big deal. I went down to the gas station and I bought a porno mag and I was going to you know masturbate continue on my debauched ways and feel guilty and hate myself as was my partner. Sure. And that night I got a knock on the door and I had like a 13 inch TV with the VCR combo and the whole headphone jack right there. I had my headphones plugged in so I knew he being still a witness and a friend of mine and you want them to think I was just falling off the map was you wanting to hear of course that I was what I was watching and the knock on my door. I went and I answered it. He tells me. I don’t know what’s going on. It has got us like really bad headache and I’m not feeling well I think you’d be OK. Can I just sleep here. I’m not alone at all. And I hid behind my disfellowshipping watch and maybe I shouldn’t I should have had more courage. But at least I said no.

[00:34:42] I said no like I’m disfellowshipped you need to go back to your apartment. At least it came in handy for maybe the first time. Yes. You know and this was only the three incidents before that but more importantly I just thought well I went back to my bedroom remember thinking how did he know that I had any of this like he was like the next day he left and letters. I was trying to help you like typed up pomodoro like just use spurned me and turn me away when I went in with help that he was going to redeem me or save my soul from the pornography. So he must have followed me to the gas station. I started to realize Zami at that magazine I’ll buy it and then go. And now to my head that he was following me around and so like a couple nights later I decide to test it and see what limits he has or how far do you take this so I’d start driving around late at night. And then I start noticing there. Sure enough the headlights are following me and they’re legging back like they never get right behind me. They like turn after I’m about at the next block and I decide Well there’s a town like 45 minutes away. I’m in a really make him think What is he up to. Where’s he going you know so I started heading towards that town but the thrill of that chase and the fun of that game grew off about 20 minutes away.

[00:35:56] Those that are a circle back in a smaller county in between the two where he was stuck at a stoplight and as I circled back I gave him a very big recognizing wave that I knew it was his vehicle and then I started going back home. When I got home there was already a message on my phone from him long weepy and apologetic and saying it over across the bounds of our friendship and he was just worried and he was so out of line to follow me and he just worries he’s a stalker. Oh yeah. You mean that’s a thing. That’s why it’s like I’d struggle with knowing or not. When I was an isolated incident he was in love with me in some way. To have this level of its power all of was power. So you know what is the difference between the power of what he did to you when you were asleep and then of course he exercised his power over you when he was at the airport and he made you apologize and then he exercise his power. When he left a note on your door and tried to make you feel bad and then he exercised his power by stalking you and following you. Yeah that’s a terrifying person. It is not and I felt very good to the thought I had that could take voicemail was this cordless like little thing that he actually gave to me. He said Are you using this anymore. Do you like a landline phone.

[00:37:24] I said sure and my mom back and forth at the time would say hello hello like two or three guys before she’d call me and he was a computer programmer he like built computers and did hard drives and stuff and I’m not sure if this is possible or not but she says there would be times where I would hang up and she would hear a second hang up or like like the second pick up or maybe breathing that wasn’t me. As I was talking she thought she thought she could hear something Armande but I always assumed it was background noise on my end maybe and only later when she left. I thought I wonder if he had it where anytime I got a phone call. He was privy to it by pointing it up on his computer or something I had no idea. I mean heck this guy moved in to the apartment right behind you. It’s like that itself is a power move. That guy is. I’ve never even thought of it that way. He didn’t have to ask was he visibly sick. I mean not exactly he means he would think would have maybe I’m wrong I’m certainly no medical doctor but you would think he would have some sort of physical manifestations of not only the illness but the treatment. So was he. Well he was going to a guy and he knew the doctor’s name which you know I’m not I can’t confirm or deny but I believe he was sick he was seeing a specialist in Fergus Falls for like an hour away for doctor appointments and I do know that he like loved tennis and loved biking and he would go and play tennis with some of the other brothers out in the hall. And then he started to say once that was all he can do. I’m too tired to sleep all the next day he was just wiped out I guess.

[00:39:11] And so he was less and less. He was always sleeping it seemed like he started to be if not visibly like falling apart sick. He started to be less than what we knew him as so I’ve never questioned I guess his sickness. And eventually it went into full remission and the first thing he did was got out of Minnesota. When I went to Colorado and Washington and just how much he traveled I just always wondered was it some sick like love he had for me and being a witness makes no allowance for being gay. So he I don’t know. I felt like let’s let’s go ahead and establish he was sick. But what I know is that I fully consider Irma’s like you predator. Everywhere he moves where there are people going through what I had gone through unfortunately I was just like one of the houses in the tornado’s path so to speak. Why would why would he stop after you. I don’t know. I don’t know. I just felt like and I hate to say I was a special case because I know that sounds so messed up but I felt like all of this showed that he was maybe in love with me or had thought that more. I don’t know. I just feel like Zirus I don’t know. I don’t know. I have no idea I guess it’s hard for me to understand it you I as you. It’s not like you can ask him.

[00:40:28] You know that’s that’s part of the whole that’s part of the whole play you know is to leave you so leave your mind so blown that you can’t figure out what it is. God I hate him I hate him for he. And it’s hard for me to say that because I don’t want to see anyone because that in itself is I hope they have a power over me that makes me hate them. And I remember like I’m kind of close the book on him so I have to keep going back to. But I’ll come back to when I was disfellowshipped to my apartment and I was like suicidal for the first time in my life. I’m hurting my mom. My roommate sees me and I come to the meeting no one wants to look at that roommate but my neighbor apartment neighbor Steve Irwin sees me at all doing is hurting all of that and maybe I should just like just go down and lay on the railroad tracks in the middle of the night or something like hurt them all in one fell swoop. Get it over with and then they can just move on with their lives. I’ll be gone from him. Stop hurting them every time they see me you know I’ll at Wal-Mart or whatever the situation. I needed that I was hurting them with my disfellowshipping and it was like I wanted it to stop. I remember telling him this was like the last conversation we had when we were associates. I went over and talked to him and told him that I had had all these dreams and God being disfellowshipped is a mess in itself but having this guy behind me. And when he wrote that no I said he’s done with me.

[00:42:11] Who’s going to help me in the nearby cries and apologetically crossed the bounds and all that stuff. I said what I’m going to go do the olive branch day and now and I had it. We had a conversation about I don’t remember what everything else was but we were kind of doing a closure on our relationship and I thought well before that causes I have to bring up these dreams I’ve had you know. And I told him about these dreams I had had where he had been touching me. And I felt weird about them and for years I’ve thought there is something wrong with me having dreams of such a vile nature about my friends and confidants and someone I like and trust. And he told me at that time you have to have him put your mind at ease. They weren’t dreams. I really messed up and I crossed a line and were bawling and he’s telling me how sorry he is in these weeping on my shoulder and I’m holding in I’m saying it’s okay it’s okay. And this is what one of the sickest parts of my life right now is I call him the words just call in the elders tell them what you’ve done and all be forgiven and all be OK. Now I’m in mean I’d pay. I know what what he tells the elders doesn’t he’s in the situation I’m in now. It’s all gonna be better. Like you can’t hit rock bottom and not feel tremendous guilt over what you’ve done and that you’re trying to repair their relationship with Jehovah he tells me.

[00:43:27] He will if he’s so sorry he’s going to go to the elders and fix this and make it right and do do what was right in their shoes a little bit about my mental attitude to it even years they could this fellowship guy I’m thinking well if he just tells them these are the markets and over there they’re going to handle it correctly of course. And then I go to the next meeting and were sitting at the watchtower and the guy from the stage says brothers TV and I look over like war. And he raises his hand a microphone comes he gives his answer gives the mike back. And I remember like wanting to stand up and scream that guy shouldn’t be allowed to carve it like a war like I had no idea. It’s it’s weird now that I did it still does. But afterwards I grabbed the couple elders and said hey come Steve told me there was a thing that happened between you. Did he come to you. Like I see him commenting today. And did you. Did he come to you and tell you anything cause no one asked me like everybody’s guilty like no one asked me anything. First of all I just want a Furby came to you and they said I’m like very secretive elder language like terms like well we know it’s confidential but he did tell us there was a closeness that was misconstrued and and we’re handling it. And so I walked away satisfied with that answer. We’re now being awake makes me angry with myself angry with them and visibly sick that I should have said no. How about let’s go get him now and we can torture let’s just talk this out again because no one asked me.

[00:45:06] First of all how I was doing so. Now I look back and I know he didn’t tell me anything he didn’t tell them anything because they would have come to me even as a disfellowshipped person they would have wanted to confirm his confession and say this is what he told us. Is that true. And even if I was the lost sheep I felt like very hurt that my opinion didn’t matter. I was disfellowshipped. They got the faithful person to say. That’s the more important word. Even if they asked me they were never going to come to me so I kind of expected it like well because they didn’t ask me. Now I look back and see how flawed that is. They definitely should have asked me they should have come and said Lordship or not. How are you. Are you OK. Is that me at this lake DTV. We are like God like we had no idea like this was going on in your life and you know you’re usually scared. They did it. They wanted to handle the matter. That’s all that matters. And they took one side of it never confirming it with me which I now obviously know he mentioned nothing that would have equated to Paula. He maybe just confessed feelings and they celebrate with him shared a scripture and said You’re doing the best you can and then patted them on the head sent him his merry way and he’s allowed the comment at the next meeting.

[00:46:18] That’s the sickness of this lake now that I’m on the outside of it and I look at what I myself to do I like beside myself that this is the thing that happens and is allowed to happen and that I don’t know who it was because was this fellowship or just even a confession told one way if they said it’s satisfactory because you told us something so we’re going to assume that was everything you know is ludicrous to me. There’s no cross-examination or any investigation or asking anyone else. So all the details he chose to give up were the only ones that you guys have to act on. And that was the first note that I really was. Just so shipped but there’s no way it had. God has his fingers on the pulse of this organization like these elders like my mom and dad’s divorced my dad like docking the starship. They all got removed. These are some of them the same brothers are their older body and its bungled situation after a bungled situation after a bungled situation. This is a God’s organization. This is not God’s organization. However my heart was so wrapped up in it all I want to do is get reinstated. I never did I never I never could. You know the night I was feeling like I want to hurt them all at once but then get the hurt over rather than continually hurting them on called Steve a. And he was an elder in 84 correlation. His wife answered very nicely. He put humanity before. Procedure of day. Talk to you. You know I’m the linchpin that is my firmness tells Dave the error of his ways. He’ll stay. He knew that. Dave don’t do that. You’re not hurting anyone.

[00:48:04] That’s a selfish thing. However you’re feeling now it will pass. Just remember Jehovah knows you overseas and he can talk. Be off the ledge metaphorically in that sense it wasn’t an actual wedge but from my mind state of this is the worst thing I’ve ever experienced. I’m a very people person and I have no people and I’m hurting all the people I do care about. I can’t make myself better. I care. Eventually I kind of decided that if the witness is right or wrong you know they don’t get involved in wars they don’t gamble money away or you know hopefully you like the idea I had a can but they don’t get their fries and drink you know although we know that that’s not true either. Like the beer that your child abusers. So they’re good people to be around. How I thought so whatever I felt about this local elder body and maybe this is just something beyond them. This is the situation I do elsewhere. I want to be surrounded by these whether or not they have the right answers to eternal salvation. They’re good people and I should go back so I went back I got reinstated. Can I ask you before we get to your reinstatement. Can I ask you a couple questions please keep me on track as much as possible. It’s so hard. These are just a couple of things that I just wondered about. This is actually going to backtrack a little bit but. So you’re disfellowshipped and the elders like you went to them about the abuse.

[00:49:40] You had mentioned that I think you were out for at least a year and a half. Yes. During that time that year and a half to the elders ever did they meet with you. Did they try to encourage you. Did they do. Did you have interactions with the elders as part of your spiritual rehabilitation. No I had no I had to act first like they would. One of them would smile and nod at me because he knew it was good to encourage me and keep me coming you’ll give me that you know pat on the head. And so I remember that they would talk to me like at the back of the hall if I had a question or needed a book or when I had brought my girlfriend to a couple meetings they were like oh how are you. Great great. And they just lowballed Obama of course. To show that whatever David’s situation is we don’t want that to elevate you from attaining everlasting life. So there are those moments like that but I remember she fell. She went online read some things right away. And I wanted nothing to do with it. Like I thought no no no no you who are you trust me who live went through it I’m going through it right now or stuff you heard online. You have no idea about. And I can tell you what those sites say bitter apostates are just going to have their Gitter. Of course they’re meant to organization. They left the organization and their feelings are not their stories not mine. And I felt like I did what I could do with it.

[00:51:11] And so what the mind will do though. I mean those are just bitter apostates. But here I am a person who has been abused has been ignored I’m being shunned and no one of these supposed spiritual shepherds who the elders are supposed to be caring. And yet you have to initiate all of the conversation with them. In other words like because you’re not the first person to ask this question. And what I’m finding is that once you’re disfellowshipped the elders watch you but they don’t try to help you at all do they. They don’t know when I say hey like how are you doing. We care. We want to see you back and we want to help you they just leave you to your own vices don’t they. They leave you alone. They largely do. And the funny thing about it is like if I didn’t initiate like saying to them oh I’ll think about writing my letter what do I need to do. Oh I’m so glad you asked here in order to do Jumo as well Brooke. There’s the process that you go through to do that David. And how you to do this. That’s what a of us. You know it’s just like I wrote my letter. So then they talked to me a little bit more and the longer the back of the hall that I couldn’t they wrote this letter just reinvigorated by this. This is the one this is the letter that gets me back you know I was like that. And then what happened was I wrote him that letter.

[00:52:48] And at this time I was still working at top honors for a lot of it. And on Sunday that was my day to do the open to cause Sunday it is open until noon. But to get food ready and hot before noon I had to get to work at like 10 get all the hot table going you know neat beans. She saw us all that Taco Johns he stuff. And then I would puzzle after the Kingdom Hall like had to get that on before 10:00 o’clock. So the heating up couldn’t stay and hot and then it just heats up slowly where it’s ready to serve by you know at noon when I have that tend to new and it was leave temperature and lock it up go to the Kingdom Hall in my truck which aren’t uniform often unshaved and then right afterwards but back out and then it works 12 to. That was my open door closed. They you know it’s like a 14 hour day anyway. And in my letter they had said well we’d like you to come more with the appropriate attire. And sometimes you’re not sure if it’s a whole of it. And they even told me this is a test. We think you’re doing good and you’ve been here at all of that. So they recognize the effort that it must be taking from me to even get access to up in my work clothes like Guy your Boston to be here. And we appreciate that. However we want to see how bad you want it. That was basically the message. And they said keep coming a little bit more and try to write a letter get it like three months more.

[00:54:13] After working on a few things we told you to work out. So I went back and worked on most things and I wore a suit and I tried to shave as often as I could. Eventually we got reinstated. Much to my delight at that time. Wow. Well I appreciate you answering. And then I also just wanted to point out because it’s something you said I think you also alluded to the fact that you you may see it differently now and that even Steven A helps you to see it differently. But it needs it needs to be said that you weren’t hurting those people. So you’re disfellowshipped you weren’t hurting those people who were seeing you. You weren’t hurting anyone they were being hurt because they were buying into something that was hurting them. Well it wasn’t about you. It was all about them and their misplaced ideologies. And I know that now. But man like when your friends from childhood and you just see pain in their faces. It kills you. Yeah. And you take it all upon yourself because that’s what we were taught to do. It was all about us. Everything was our responsibility. And you were just horrible and that we’re hurting these people none of whom were actually trying to help you. Please you guys even like I felt very like like I was even covering over the scene. My friend was like I don’t to read about him. I’m taking. That’s my right now because I’m sure it has worked. So the fact that I was a sheriff is works but I’m paying for them. They’re being Matosi.

[00:55:57] I mean look at what you were taking on. You were taking on the things that you just mention the sins by you know being there with them. You were also taking on this shining thing and all the weight of the feelings of every person that saw you you were taking on complete solitude. You were taking on trying to make a living and still make these meetings and do all that and in all of this and you were taking on you’d already taken on this abuse by Stevie. So you’re just a dumping ground for everybody else’s stuff. Here you are disfellowshipped. You have these people that are supposed to be shepherds in the congregation the elders. And shame on those assholes for not ever reaching out to people who are hurt. I mean there is no organization that shoots their wounded like Jehovah’s Witnesses. They completely take people that are already broken and that are hurting and then they dump everything on them tell them that it’s all their fault. Blame the victim and then do absolutely nothing to help that person to get spiritually well as they see it like they don’t even though I guess honestly by leaving you alone that’s technically the healthiest thing if you were to just get out and be free of those Nazis. So it could actually work to your favor. But they’ve got you so programmed and you’re so devastated and you you’re so living in shame that you’re such a horrible person and these loving spiritual brothers can’t even lift a finger to reach out and say hey man like. All right. So here you are. Now you’re on the outside.

[00:57:58] Let’s help rehabilitate you. Let’s help see what we can do to help you overcome your problems to make you a better person. You know it’s like going to a doctor who looks at you and goes you know you got stage 4 cancer. Good luck to you. You know like that never tries to help you that never brings the medicine or the cure. They just leave you to sit in it and feel terrible. And then of course you know a person like you. And often it’s the people who are the most sincere and the most beautiful people are the people who are hurt the most because they truly do care and they take it all on and they feel horrible. And then there’s no one there to help them. You were sincere. You were trying to do all the right things. And they used every bit of your sincerity against you. And if that doesn’t show that Jehovah’s Witnesses are not the true religion they are not the truth. They are not. What did they say that Jesus said. By their love you will know them. They claim love as their identifying mark of true Christianity. I’m 35. Fuck them they have no love. They would not know love. All they know is narcissism they know control and control is the exact opposite of love. Control is not about the other person. Control is about what you want and imposing it on that other person. And it’s completely abusive and that is who Jehovah’s Witnesses are. So that’s my little soapbox. It’s one of the things that woke me up.

[00:59:40] That was one of the biggest things is when I looked around and I realized there is no love in this organization. It is all about them. They take and they take and they take and they never give you anything in return. And so there is no true love there. That’s the crazy thing is like recently. Like I like a lot of partners and like well writing things I play with words quite a bit. Yeah. Giraffe’s lately like since our first session recording I’ve taken to calling it Jehovah’s narcissist’s and I sing the old melody of a song and it makes me smile. But the thing is I realize now like to mix the people you know who are believers with what the organization is. It’s like how you said all of that and said there’s no love there’s no this new organization. If you stripped that they’ve given me a lot of reading material over the years that would be the extent of my friends who are believers. They have shown love in a lot of conditional and you can feel that real love exists with the people I knew inside the congregation. However when you look at the policies in place just for how the organization is run. That’s like saying I want to talk which arms my employees and my current like co-workers I should say actually cared about me. Do you think Taco John’s international knew anything of how many tacos I sold or what I was doing. No it’s the same way. It’s like they just well at least you are hogging the machine.

[01:01:22] Yeah yeah and at least good Taco Johns gave you money that you could use to do whatever you wanted with the Watchtower. Yeah they gave you reading material but what was that reading material. It was narcissistic propaganda. That’s all it was. Yeah. So even if read the material they gave you all about them. It’s crazy too because like all the reading material like years and years of it is little more than a recital of the same things they had me read at 8 years old. Of Cornell up to 225. Hey we’re going to recite this again. Oh yeah you’re still a terrible sinner you’re still a horrible person and they have to let you know that at every turn. What you’re saying. Nature is because that way you need them. If they can keep you down long enough you need them. And what is you know I love the actual story of Narcissus and you know where narcissism comes from you know and how this narcissist is so enamored with him. Enough him or her will say him nurses make it was him was so in love with his own reflection in the water he could do nothing but stare into it and so what did he do. That seems like fall in and drown or something and I think somehow he dies this horrible death because he can’t break away from admiring his own beauty and that is of his witnesses you know if you look even when Jehovah’s Witnesses talk amongst themselves sure oh brother isn’t this such a wonderful organization. How great are we. Like they could not pat themselves on the back more and do less.

[01:03:00] I was always bugged by the watchtowers because like I mentioned earlier where I liked the new light I liked the media stuff I liked something that my brain had to get creative in reasoning and have an agile mind to learn to grasp this new light rather than a whole hum recitals that we have heard over and like one of the things that made me the maddest was when they would waste a whole Watchtower article that was like this week we’ll be discussing or all the good we’ve done in this country and it was like literally paragraphs in a paragraph about patting themselves on the back for how they spread this work here and so and so yeah his calmness for an A B and C question that only three questions like this guy’s story. We understood it was a feel good story put it like the back page up in a way. Don’t waste my Watchtower stuff that I have to study with just feel good things you want to pat yourself on the back for me for that they can’t do that because part of any good colt is infantilizing people and dumbing things down and being so mind numbing that you literally are trained to turn your brain off. That is what they do. It is a way of manipulating people to do dumb things down so much to be so boring that people literally turn their brains off. That’s why you remember there was quote new lie and there was some new thing. It was like oh my god I finally feel awake and alive.

[01:04:30] There’s something to emulate me instead of being so bored that you’re just mindless automatons little robots that follow this cult and do what ever they say because god forbid you turn your brain on. They don’t. So that’s why it was so boring that that is all by design. That is all by design. It keeps you in a state of NARM so that you can’t feel and you can’t look around you and really ever find your way out. You’re just in the fog and can’t see anything else. Yeah well I’ve derailed that. No but I wanted to get back to your. You know I wanted to ask those questions and really herbes me that elders don’t do anything. I mean I guess I’m I’m glad in one way that they’re not really helping anyone so that maybe people will leave but it’s also sad because unfortunately some people do leave and they leave. Because they do commit suicide. And that’s that’s so sad. And that is one of those things where they say they disfellowshipped you because you weren’t repentant you weren’t sorry for what you did but then you see people literally kill themselves over it. Now how could they know. How could they say that you’re not sorry over it. When you then turn around and kill yourself. You know that is the ultimate I’m sorry. And I’ll say it again though like I like honestly like the last bit I’ll say I’m my disfellowshipping is that I was taking a personality test and I’m into that sort of part about the brain nature versus nurture and I was ENFP which is the champion and very hyper champion of causes that type a champion like Victor.

[01:06:32] But the champion stuff they get all and they go all year on something and they can get brazenly people to follow them on to their their cause. You can start and I love I could I start. I love the I love the passion. It was infectious people around me would get caught up in it and I was in the ENFP is extrovert and I took the test before my disfellowshipping. That part that determines you have all the questions it’s like. So it’s the only one that has a 20. It’s like a 20 questionnaire. And remember it was like 19 to 1 Etah Ayfer introvert. After my disfellowshipping and reinstatement I got into reading a lot more. And all of a sudden I don’t know if it’s just because age balances you out or the experience I went through said get used to being alone. And I was much more like eleven to maybe eight. And in that you know twelve eleven maybe eight or nine. You know I was much more I wasn’t an introvert because I get my charge off people but now I had a lot of introvert tendencies. I was okay being alone. I liked a book is a good time to be alone. I can be content by myself now. Disfellowshipping taught me that before I needed to be around people I needed to be around people I needed to be around people. And when I wasn’t. That is the singular only time in my life I have ever been even close to what I would call suicidal and I wasn’t like I don’t want to say I was I was depressed. And that was the thing.

[01:08:08] You know you’re curious about it that call to the void and it just I was mulling it more than it ever did. But it wasn’t like suicide or the sense of you know I want to try it but I was if it had made sense in my mind for the first time only during that period in my life of being disfellowshipped that first time now I understand. It’s scary that something like that can literally impact your personality so much. Yeah a push to the brink. Totally against my nature. That’s not who I am or what I would think. But I was driven there and it was a real place my mind had filed. And I just can’t believe that I look back now and a marvel that you know like they push you that far Jehovah’s loving organization pushed you that far. I don’t mean to laugh but yeah the absurdity of it can cause is exactly what gallows humor. Yeah it’s wow. It’s just it’s so sad. So so then. All right. So now back to your reinstatement so you get reinstated then. How did your life transform from there. The next part was rather quickly and I will try to do it as quickly as possible. I get reinstated and there’s a few friends you know people moved away. People my age got their own lives and spread apart as everyone does of any age when you reach that. But some had been disfellowshipped and left the organization some had stayed behind and the young kids that were my immediate young crew they were gone and like you know off doing stuff.

[01:09:48] But now there’s a slightly younger generation just coming up and I and brilliance that way I can be there stede a I can be a good example the fun young guy who takes an interest in younger ones. You know I’ll do that. So I started hanging out with people you know a good number of years younger than me and some of their previous friends were still there. One of whom was a girl who became my wife eventually. And I remember the night I got reinstated they said hey you know Dave let’s got a dry ice too. They were like best is Miranda and Jessica and I thought I couldn’t believe it. Like this quick they hang out actually spend time with me not just you know pat me on the back. What we’re glad to have you back look at the back of the kingdom holler. This is going to bubble out outside the walls of the hall. I get to hang out with my old friends again in the real world again. And we just got in a car ride talking music and caught up in what’s changed. You know we’ve missed a day of Garber’s will have your back and all that stuff. And that was when I realized like some of them weren’t there. But some of them were and that I had in my heart made up the decision I have to go back to my own self. None of the friends will ever be there still. If they hadn’t moved on or just want nothing to do with me that’s not why I’m coming back for them.

[01:11:10] But when they actually did I was shocked and surprised because I was convinced that everyone else had just written me off. I’d be this kind of anonymous member of the congregation who kind of comes and goes and I can say hi now at least. But the fact that it was it was by a certain circle of friends very open eyes. Glad to have you back. And the one girl she was a little on the young side when I had left or gotten disfellowshipped the first time she was being a couple years younger than me but she had confessed you know feelings for me before and you know I said I like to wait for you I don’t know and she’s that why I just hated that whole. We had to watch on the sidelines. You go to that first relationship just up and down and on again off again and I just felt so bad for you and in all your in all of your experiences she felt for me and you know had a big crush on me and I was attracted to her and I and in a state of mind that I was coming back. I didn’t think anyone would want to be around me. And here was someone who I had had before and am willing to have again. And now she’s actually old enough where she wants to hang around here tell her parents. I’d like to date him. She can do that as a responsible adult. So things progressed rather quickly and we were married within. I was reinstated the first time November 30th and our anniversary the following year was November 17th. So within under a year of being back I had gone through the dating engagement and marriage process recently disfellowshipped.

[01:12:42] People didn’t like that. And you know how sure are you about this. He’s only been back a little bit of time or after. So I got married relatively quickly. Looking at it now. It was it was what I wanted at the time what I wanted at the time though was it was part of the love bomb to about getting back you know rolling on back. Now all this love hits you everyone even the people I thought who would write me after I welcome back. But you know I’ll never be the same. When I saw that that was a worry of mine dissolved between certain ones I said oh great but then at the same time Miranda and the other one who was Jessica’s best friend at the time started to decide that she was just going to leave just walking away going inactive and we had tried like multiple times to reach out to her and save her and she was leaving to go with this man. We were like heartbroken that we were lost. Losing a friend of this sort. And there was like other friends of our circle had already left me and they picked up. So it’s really dwindling down the pool of ours. Our group people and now we lose this last one was kind of the glue that kept it together. But I think she even felt like I was a little bit that way. Well Newell you guys are probably going to start dating so I can kind of see that now so I can do what I want finally because you’ll have Dave you know. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:14:08] So she’s letting go and kind of passing the baton off of who’s going to be good friends and also sort of through that that really expurgated what our our friendship becoming an actual courtship because now we’re like the only you know three or so left from that original core. And one of them is leaving. So it really brought the two of us together and it was natural that we formed a closeness over the last at this friend and now we felt like it was just us. I went to there was a couple younger than us that we still hang out with but other than like it was like they were just going to come together in a few short years change such drought so drastically that we got really cross over all that you know we had that in common that we lost all the same friends and now I was back so things would steady out and she was a young girl and I was a young boy and we started dating and got married and they I felt like I had something to prove to everybody to cause like I want to let the record show when I was associate. Yes I had that role but it wasn’t a sexual relationship. Like don’t think I went out and lived as the barge life and now she’s giving herself to someone who’s not worth anything because it’s really too in myself. I had felt like everyone’s going to view me that way and I’m not going to be worth anything to myself if I’m not worth anything to their eyes. And so you feel this who is going to want me.

[01:15:28] I’ve been disfellowshipped and I know what I’ve done. They don’t know what I’ve done. I’m so soiled and I’ve lived in the world that if they knew that I had tried pot twice and you know they’re just going to like and I hated it. You know you feel those things and I have a word too often and they probably assume the worst. No one’s going to want me any more ever again. They will always I will always have an asterix of welcome him because he’s your brother again. Don’t ever trust him because he’s a person who did stuff that he’s untrustable right. And so the fact that I had friends left is someone well used to you you like me you would want to date me. It was like this I’m acting I’m going act now and it’s just us two left and we seem to do the last two Sindane people in the congregation of the similar age let’s get together and it was looking back now as it was I’m out of that relationship of course but there was such a bad choice for so many reasons. I should have taken a lot of time to not just be so glad that I had some friends who still did. Were willing to like me and be you know friends me first I should like when you’re expecting no one to ever take you again no one to look at you and view you as an honest person because you’ve been through that. Yeah. You take what you can get.

[01:16:45] You take what you kind of take what you can get and undo the pool of people who are dwindling but you know like when you look at like what someone is in a marriage partner like what your qualifications are. She was a young man who thought she had a lot more she’s different now and don’t want to make this why her and I were about a couple but just the one thing you know about the truth. I will say is that it shows the organization the cast I’m saying is they don’t. JT and Lady C say it a lot like they don’t teach you anything about how to evaluate a person. They ask you if you’re interested in dating someone another. How many hours in service do they do. OK so they move a lot of product. How spiritual someone is or how many hours in service or if it is in ministry. Is your pioneer you know or if not then you shouldn’t even consider such a print. It’s like you. Oh they don’t teach you how to talk about was his temper like or he can be obedient and show up at meetings on time and go out in service he can be places on time is not a qualification. Is this person really good marriage. Sure he does. The only thing you look for your spiritual I’m spiritual. You grew up in this. Ha I grew up in this how your family knows my family. We know as we know for two people. Each Other is probably well as anyone can know each other when you’ve got all this intertwined history and common friends and the history of losing those common friends you’re bonded and you feel it was like that makes sense.

[01:18:14] And then you’re attracted to one another and you’re young and you feel like all I need is to this will be the thing that Couture’s me. This will be what fixes me and makes me completely happy once I have this marriage in me. And she’s willing to forgive that I had all that disfellowshipped life. You know I’m just over the moon that anyone would still want me around and it’s not that you guys are compatible. No not at all. Believe me. I mean honestly after we left the conversation my wife and I had to have you know which is you know why are we in this relationship for real. Because you know we got married because you know we get married obviously we did care about each other genuinely but when you’re in the Colts the the reasons are the qualifications I guess that you are given to look for in a marriage may are not at all. What makes a good marriage. And you know what. The divorce rate is in Jehovah’s Witnesses but it has to be higher than even the national average because I have seen we’ve seen so many people like almost all the young people that we had grown up with. They got married. We get divorced. And oh yeah they were they were just getting married to have sex of course they were. That’s the only way you could have sex and they were normal young people with feelings. And I just remember you know even after we left we had to reexamine you know why are we in this relationship is this. Is this really what we want.

[01:19:52] Because I mean we broke down everything else in our lives so I mean we had a look at that too and you know this truly was what we want is what we want. But we had to consciously make that choice again because we realized that so much of what every aspect of our life was based on was if it wasn’t a lie it was just not a good and healthy foundation for whatever. And so we had a look at our own relationship and really examine that and have you know tough discussions because really I mean I guess every marriage probably goes through that anyway because you’re different at 20 or 30 than you are at 60. Like everybody changes like exact when it’s best. That’s that’s one of those things no one talks about anyway. It’s just the expectations of the different seasons of life and how people change throughout those. But you know that’s part of having a mature relationship a mature marriage. But you know we had to re-evaluate. And you know good for us. You know luckily for us you know we are where we wanted to be but I totally understand that a lot of people are not and it’s because the foundation that Jehovah’s witnesses give their members for a relationship. Yes so dysfunctional and it doesn’t. People really are so I mean no wonder you know I feel for you because you had that at the and for her really because it’s not fair to you. Oh my god yes. Because it was also it was set up on such a shaky foundation that was neither of yours fault wasn’t the fault of either of you that you were born into this Colts. Yes.

[01:21:38] That has such dysfunctional ways of being glad you said that too. Because like for me like I just feel as much as I’d love to say oh it’s all her. She had changed that wasn’t what I wanted at the time she was what I wanted. But what I eventually wanted change what she wants changed and everything changed. And the reality of it was it was changing further and further apart. Yeah. And when I got reinstated I do not many brothers left in the hall. And so I quickly like they give me privileges rather I was good readers. You can start reading at the Watchtower. You can start me or you can pray at the meetings over everything. And they kind of even well her dad was also the presiding overseer and he was here. There’s a long history there of course with any elder Neckar issuers don’t need was. But they are they basically told me Well you know you can’t be a ministerial servant until you know five years. I remember hearing that I thought well what did you mean five years like I’ve been raised. I can read I can do this. And I guess there’s an that’s the elders direction is there some arbitrary number that says five years until he could be in good standing because someone is really from the Bible is a five year you know five years you know there’s a five year waiting period mentioned in the Bible. I thought it was like seven and I could be released on the Jubilee Year or some other major bull. Yeah.

[01:23:15] They had to give me an earring and I could get rid of it when I wasn’t a slave after this. I don’t know. No seriously I shouldn’t make jokes because you and I it’s funny. But to someone listening has no idea like they make up a lie and there’s arbitrary rule isn’t a culture of it where I remember feeling like I’m more spiritual now and have a bit of my life like this is the idea I’m ready. This is the scene you’re looking at a ministerial circle wants to serve the congregation and that fact that they may be wait I felt like her you know because I know I knew I was never at the time I got reinstated. I was I literally pictured like the world Armageddon had to be around the corner and we were in like George Bush years. And I thought like oh man things are going to happen things are going to happen. Like yeah. Bush and Clinton and Bush again before that and then you know like it is just too much happening in to have your country be in the hands of two singular families for almost 26 years. This is this is at the boiling point right. And you think I got on the train and the doors closed and it cut my coat tails like I was the last person to see it. You know that was my mentality when I got reinstated was that I just got it. Thank goodness I got my act together in time just to beat those doors. You know.

[01:24:34] But I knew like in my mind I was that convinced the end was on its way and I was like I was a spiritual as I’ve ever been in my life. So there’s anyway. Fast forwarding through the marriage problems as most young people have stated that she is a kind of become different. And I remember having doubts and still I had told myself through my whole life this masturbation issue will cure itself once I’m married because then you’ll have a marriage me and you won’t need it right. Yeah. People you know. But anyway. So yes that’s why I’m hanging my hat on this marriage thing going that way. You you just blew me you nothing nothing I can’t handle. But we get into the marriage and it’s not what I had a lot of levels. And then we have conversations. And then the conversations come blow ups where then you want to avoid blow ups. So you start bringing topics up and your communication becomes signals. Body language is slamming doors and sending messages through non actual communication. And you feel like how did we get here. This is lame and this is not what I wanted. This is not how I wanted to spend my years as a married man. Well if I had a kid that would be that you know we’re going to keep. I always wanted kids you know and we have a baby. And that was about three years in the marriage. But I remember holding that innocent little child and that was another moment that kind of dawned on me from my awakening as there’s things I can’t say now. My then wife I just know you can never tell her you have a doubt here or there about this organization.

[01:26:14] She more habit she is third generation born in Die Hard. And we blast all these friends and she just seemed flummoxed that anyone would ever leave of their own. Don’t tell her any of these doubts whether it’s leaving the organization or meeting her or what the marriage is. But I remember looking at that little baby’s face and thinking this is a gift from God that will keep me engaged in this. I want to raise him right. Amina really a modern day keep me engaged in that kind of occasion and do the right thing for my kid. This may sound delicious it’s not exactly what I wanted but that’s OK because now I’ve got this precious thing to care for. And he will be the glue that keeps us together and I can draw myself into being a parent more than worrying about what the husband or wife connection itself is. And they’re also like when you have a kid something changes and you completely wear I remember holding that kid can’t remember it the delivery is happening. You’re scared. She needs a blood transfusion during this thing. Or what if the baby comes out. He’s not healthy. And I was like instantly I kind of knew I couldn’t voice certain doubts but in my mind I has I had learned about a scary amount of love in myself. I think I’ve got too much to love to ever say no.

[01:27:32] If this kid’s playing in the street and eventually needs like a blood transfusion because he get to buy a car I would have to say what everyone else in the hospital room being her dad was the presiding overseer and she would be saying this and then I know I would go order like the doctor in the hallway. So yeah I had to see that back there. I’ll tell you now save the life whatever you do and later that all Biyani they can get mad at me. I’ll be the one who violated God’s law but mind you it will at least be able to survive and his want to be his sent you know that would be mine and they can all be mad at me but I want him to live. And I’m kind of like you had that ability in you where you realize now like just a kid makes you different. You think like there’s nothing you wouldn’t do for him good or bad. And you know you realize that I think in my mind I’m still a die hard witness too. I have doubts but I also know that this kid has changed things. When they round us up for the concentration camps that they had told us was going to happen or had fearmonger into us. I thought I’m gonna go down in a hail of gunfire because I’m not going to be able to watch them put a gun to his head. I’m going to jump or try to grab someone near me or fight back like I’m going to watch my kid do that. I know if they separate us and please take me instead. Does doesn’t work. It’s definitely my option and I felt like that because I thought I can’t do this.

[01:28:54] I’ve got a kid and I knew this concentration camp thing I was just praying it would not happen in theU.S. because I knew I was too weak. I couldn’t do it. And so I started to realize his weaknesses and Hacketts voiced them. I can’t say this to my then wife like I don’t have the strength to look like I might renounce my faith if they give me a paper that says himin I think or live like you she would have left me right then and there. Just for saying something against the organization like that. But when you have a kid you start realizing your limits and say I can’t sign off. I would sign off on a blood transfusion. I would do anything I would sign renounce my faith. There’s nothing you can hold over me that would say choose this ideology over this physical being of help. Now that doesn’t go away. That was like part of my own cracks in the foundation realizing that they just it became. When you start having all of those things you can’t speak to your mate about a lot of things especially something as big as your religion you’re going you’re you’re you’re you’re doing nothing but furthering on like first of all it’s unfair to make myself think that this kid was going to keep my marriage together like that somehow his job to fix things between us. Yeah that rarely works. But you think you think of all this stuff and you just start realizing through your own thoughts now that you’re faced with your own. Like who am I as a parent. Who am I as a Jehovah’s Witness. Who am I as something bigger than yourself you have to think outside of. Yeah. And that was like Really.

[01:30:28] I mean I guess cracks in the foundation are starting to appear in my relationship with her. And I’ve just got stuff that I know I have to bite my tongue to pass. Like most people get pushed out the back of their mind and convince themselves that OK well don’t worry about that now don’t worry about that. Now when if he wants to go for football that’s not an implied that you can’t play football like god like how she’s going to say no and I’m gonna say maybe that would have a shot like show me the Bible. Like when he asked me Dad why can’t we in the Bible do it. I don’t have that good answer because I don’t think it exists. Like birthdays or something you could say was pagan. Maybe I could convince him. But this like you know he just wants to play sports. That’s it. You know why can’t I have you know this haircut or that third jeans or shirt with this logo on it. I’m thinking you no I don’t have good answers for a lot of the stuff. Maybe I wasn’t cut out to be a parent. But right now little kids little issues will just get through this. We’re what big star wars gets the vigil. Now you just want cut out to be a Jehovah’s Witness. That’s of was you’re actually being a good parent. And so there’s a lot of that going on. And then we had a second kid and a lot of the same stuff I just had to realize I was a very active dad like at assemblies.

[01:31:46] I really love the fact that I didn’t have to sit in there for the sessions and she not be a communicator very well but being good at getting a message to you whether it’s through silent treatment or just like huffing and they can’t off this kid. So it’s very good when you can do that and then like whether it’s grandparents or even random people at the convention sitting next to you like Ticknor or you want me to tip them. Should I take your kid for you and say I just hated asking for help. I was out day. How do you if she’s there even if it’s a language people speak and they learn as a survivor’s guilt if I just make a fuss about this I don’t have to handle it anymore. Someone will come in and save it. And that’s the dad I was was I was a very let’s do it let’s do it and I got to be walking down the halls every session like walking down the halls and seeing all the other dads and parents that use their salaries when you’re like hey we’re in the parents club we’re all out here you know in especially in cyber. We got child rearing and we’re trying to make it so those inside are distracted by our loud kids. That mothers could actually take notes because they don’t have arms full of babies and so I’m facilitating a good thing. Plus I get to walk in the halls I’m not enjoying the sunshine so much. Me and my kid are having a fun time. Let’s go upstairs and check in at that level you know.

[01:33:00] Let’s ride the elevator and you start to feel like you just don’t know. We became really fun for me to be that dad with the kid and we were one of the places we had assemblies was also a local a state baseball Hall of Fame. And so we grew up look at Buffalo baseballs and read names and what towns they were from. And I’m jealous we never had anything like that. And you just you know you’d grow it you’d get your arm. You get people who don’t talk to you and they’ve got their kid and they’re waiting out in the hallways at assemblies intervention because they got that year piece aired and they’re just not at you. But that’s like the not as a hello and a dismissal. And they know don’t linger around and talk you know. But then you get the ones who love you’re out here with your kid to you just go and you go and talk until you start to hear music and you’re like oh yeah I get into the song as it’s going to be lunch. But it’s so funny because when you had two kids. Now what if we could always take shifts before things really changed our relationship. Well we had two kids because it’s one of us is always going to have one or even worse both. You know we’re outnumbered now it’s even teens at least. And that’s got to be a strain on our relationship because I still was like in the doing a lot of that like I had a handle thing and I had to handle everything. She was a note taker and I wasn’t. So let me take notes. Would you take.

[01:34:25] I mean I got to go out in the hallways and do that stuff as well. But I also got very into bicycling and like cycling riding around miles and miles on my bike at this time in like 2009 or whatever and then bringing up children and so all the good races in bicycling are on Saturday or Sunday. So when you get to go out for like out of the sessions are take the kids with time or room time or room you can just check up dates on your phone. Who’s winning what race weekend after weekend there’s a good race going on. So it really I was kind of weak spiritually not giving it. I was thinking I was rather spend time with my kids in a time out room just doing my own thing and listening to all that stuff and is what helped her out. But after enough of that it just became expected. So I was always doing it and feeling like well no. It’s exhausting being a parent especially when you start to realize some of the beliefs a whole do. Some of them I don’t this part of this organization raise me but I stomach it because I’ve got all these other things and it was just a really confusing time in my life. Think young children. You know that’s interesting because I’ve heard people who I recently talked to somebody who was interested in this girl so he started it he wanted her. She was worldly and he was a witness and he wanted to have this relationship with her.

[01:35:58] So he started examining the teachings of Jehovah’s witnesses because of course you know he was trying to push her to become one and he wanted to make sure he did everything right as he was going to teach her. And it was the examination of his own beliefs that led him out. And then you know here you are you have kids and it’s the same thing now you’re like OK now I’m going to teach my kids this stuff. Now I have to think about this and now I have to examine these beliefs. Does this really add up. Being a witness was far. I was the only one that had to deal with my decision. And there a lot better for your kids and you start to look at everything you think God this is just like why not football why not even like the knowledgeable team you know like I just thought like because it’s a team and it’s a school like to me like I just mean like there’s too much here I kind of want better for my kids. But I a mate that won’t ever go along with that. Yeah. And I can’t even voice these things but they’re starting they’re just festering in me. And I did like you do with any doubts though and put them in the back of your mind and you just figured that’s just my struggle. And know I don’t worry about it now anyway. So it’s fine with us. You know like you assume the fire alarm is going to work because you’ve had a battery in it forever and you haven’t used it excessive. That’s not always the case. So then how did it progressed from there. Well child is awesome.

[01:37:29] So many things are awesome I have doubts. But like any good Christian I put them aside. What happens though that really turns my life around. It was I met a woman at a coffee shop in my local town and we were talking and I got to know a little bit about her story and I just felt like I didn’t know I was drawn to her. I was drawn to her out of the laugh and making her laugh was probably the it just bubbled out of her and it was the best reward you ever got for any joke you’ve ever said that someone laughed at this one. Hate it. Better than any payment of laughs. It was just it was the exact me. This is why I called Chalk’s keep telling here again here again here again. We became good friends and we started we realized we took our kids to the same day care. I creepily looked up like her last name from her kid’s name on the daycare roster and I found oh this is her and then I found her online and we started messaging like on Instagram and just I just she just was the lonely gal who had these kids was doing the best she could as a single mom. And I felt for that situation growing up with my mom as a single mom. And I was just like she just needs a friend and her husband cheated on her and had like is really messed up life right. It’s I want to show her that there’s good men out there. I know because I am one and that is not all that way and you’re in your 30s.

[01:38:57] But there’s a good life for you and you just needed a friend and someone to talk to. And I thought I could be that some juggling all this just being her friend and I like talking to her. She seemed to get me and she even asked me at one point like whoa what how you feel about flirting I know you’re in a relationship and everything and that’s why we proudly showed it to you. You’ve been down this road with your husband. Would you have been okay with that. Oh you’re right. And so we had like very mature conversations over and over. But yes we. There might be attraction to one another but we can’t go down that road it’s a road filled with regret and that’s not my purpose in being your friend. You know that we can we can never fulfill each other in that way. That doesn’t mean we can’t have conversations in good times and you know you share a coffee in the mornings and it was just like we grew close. Eventually my phone being and I’d get a message we’re starting to get mad every time it wasn’t her kid. That sounds awful but you do realize you’re falling in love. This can’t be happening. This can’t be happening. How did this happen to me. But whether it was my. Did you check the emotional qualifications first. No. No. In the back of my mind I was hoping she would come in and maybe find a good witness me and somebody because there are others like me of course. And I thought I could help.

[01:40:18] If nothing else she would see my example and maybe meet someone who would be like me because he was in the same. You know just all those crazy things helping someone is so funny because the way we view helping them is let us change everything about you. And then you’ll be worthy of our time is like no it’s you. This was the person not to who I got to be around and talk around. And I had maybe a hope because I wanted to fulfill but I didn’t care. Shira became a witness that was like the first time world. I didn’t want. I liked her as she was for who she was and it didn’t matter. If I thought her forever eternal happiness or the place to find a good man was amongst the witnesses I felt like they’re out there and I just want to be that friend to show you. Then we start adding more and more conversations about why it never happened how we know it can never happen. And eventually I put myself in a compromising situation. And again like is my pattern. I didn’t cross the line then and there. We went over to talk about it at that time was kind of like ultimatum like I can’t talk to you anymore because this is going too far too fast. We tried forever it seemed like to put the brakes on but then there is this. Well I still want to know if there is a magic between us and we shared a kiss and neck kiss was like just electric.

[01:41:46] The electricity in the touch it was everything I had ever wanted rather than the steel relationship I had had. And I fell. I went home and I just felt awful. I didn’t sleep much that night and I would get a message and I was hurt and can’t sleep. You know I had a cry. If you are about what we did we had it you know we shared that kiss. I know it’s on our mind too. And I said I’m not going to be some philanderer who just jumps between beds. I can’t play. Do you think we can have a future together. That’s I’m only interested in this if there’s a future and it was like Well yeah I would give you my all. All I ask you is I think compassion and that’s when I started to realize I’m me that I had. First of all the little guy was a baby still and he was starting the first downstairs. And I was still messaging and I was very relieved because I remember I get to go downstairs now to sleep with him in his room. There’s a food in there and I get to sleep with the baby which will put him at ease but. I just felt awful. I don’t want to share that bed. I don’t want to share their roofs. Having this conversation with someone else and knowing that I’m a person lately who anytime a message pings or goes off even if it’s my then wife I’m mad if it’s not this person and it’s like I’m all in with my heart. And now I’m starting to get my mind over and I haven’t yet given my body over.

[01:43:11] We shared the kiss but I’m starting to realize you’re fighting this and something’s just driving you and calling you and ultimately I’m I realized when they want to predict that march that I had to make a decision it wasn’t fair to either party. And the best thing I could do was be true to myself and say what I wanted but then have the strength and courage of my convictions. To do that and say like I can’t be with you and I’m going here. And one say it was a very swift. Every one of the witnesses was just shocked because it was literally like a train jumping tracks and pulled the lever. And I got off on this one. There was never any period of other communication like I wasn’t Flandry between beds that they couldn’t respected myself between then I would have hated who I was. I hated who I was what I was doing anyway. But I realized I needed a change and I really thought it recognized this is where I’m happy. Guy it’s going to hurt it’s gonna hurt and I want that happiness. But reaching out and taking it is going to hurt her hurt hurt hurt and it’s gonna hurt everyone in Iraq and I understand but I have to do this because it was for me for once. When I can have what I like. What I wanted and I wasn’t. After eight years of marriage and like this Roumi existence. We share a roof and we share bills and weeds.

[01:44:41] You sit on your phone over three feet away and I sit on my phone and we’re as separate as two people who are supposed to be together can ever be and I’m not happy with this. And about a month away from giving my first public talk as mysteriously as well like there’s a lot of pressure and a lot of life going on and I decided that I was changing my life up radically when I left that pretty much that night and the next the next day. And I never stayed in the old house again. I went over to my now wife Missy that was her place one of the meses and she was sure to fall asleep so nobody answered the door. And I went to my car slept in the parking lot behind the coffee shop where we had met and I didn’t get much sleep but that was really good that I didn’t have to just go between houses either I had a night in my car to just cry and think and pray and do all those things about what does this beat about who I am that I am doing this. What does this mean about who I am as my dad. Like am I just handing on the Sundheim thing or you’re another dad who isn’t going to be around for your kids you know and like nothing ever could have removed me from their lives before. And now I just it was it was the most conflicting. I can’t even describe it. If you were to tell me my own words like a time recording from now back then I would still think I was crazy and as I was going through it I thought it was crazy. I just knew it because my heart beat my only compass was pointing me that direction.

[01:46:22] And for the first time your heart was pointing you in a direction because if you think about it the relationship you had previous that wasn’t based on your heart what Jehovah’s Witnesses set up for relationships. It’s an intellectualising of it. It’s not about your heart. You’re not supposed to follow your heart. The hardest treacherous. You’re supposed to look at their spiritual qualifications their numbers and whether or not you know they’re going out in service for X amount of hours or how they’re meeting attendance is or whether or not they comment. You’re not your heart’s not involved nearly as much as your head is. And so yeah for the first time you were actually following your heart and and doing what you wanted to do instead of the default that was provided to you by an organization that does not have your best interests. And I won’t let myself completely off the hook and that in fact it was some arranged marriage. But this is my heart. That first marriage at the time. Sure. But I like the way you said nearly as much as your head. It’s an. But it’s you know there’s a table of emotions and spirituality and head at heart and everybody comes together and they meet and then they decide a decision. It’s like they don’t know. There’s a lot going on ever understanding yourself is a confusing thing ever. Sure. At any point. But you know when you’re young and you’re going through what I went through. Fresh off of a reinstatement. And then just as young as it was I probably wasn’t mature to fully know what I wanted.

[01:47:53] I never gave myself the time. Even when I was disfellowshipped a lot of people thought well that was your time to decide and you made the right decision. I was all guilt all the time because I felt like I’d never thought I was going to spend the rest of my life making it up to these friends and these people that I had hurt that if any one of them would still have me. I will give you my all just making it up to you. So I did. You know and it’s like it’s all guilt. There’s very little of it that’s genuine. Like you say in your podcast that no guilt being I did something wrong to shame being I am something wrong or I’m a bad person. I just do a bad thing. I am a bad thing. And I felt that was just my nature. I wasn’t happy that I was doing it. And here I was doing it again. But knowing this is actually my road to happiness. It’s gone. All I can do is rip the bandage off as quick as possible and get it over with. Like with everybody just sorry. This is it. We will work it out later on. My relationship with my children established and all this will happen. But thank God that I had missed you through it all. Because there were moments of like just grief my mom. Nobody understood and everybody always said I wanted to talk and my disfellowshipped brothers and sisters more talk to me and I didn’t trust them. I didn’t trust anyone.

[01:49:08] I felt like that was all David’s life just took a quick upheaval. Let’s tune in and get the juicy details. And I didn’t feel like anybody who sincerely wanted to help me. They just were happy to have you back in the club of this fellowship. People join the ranks of us imperfect ones rather than being David the golden child who stayed in that mind your mom’s favorite or any of that. And I felt like I can’t trust them I can’t trust. Elder I can’t trust any former experience I had. I could not trust. It seemed like I was just trusting my heart and I was so happy. And I instantly knew this and I hardly knew each other but there was like I was starting to feel confused and things like I felt were soulmates. This was the only way it makes sense because I couldn’t know someone better if I’d been friends with them for. You know like I’ve been married eight years. I hardly had any idea who the person was as what makes them tick. I just kind of knew how the process was going to take and predict it like weather patterns but I didn’t understand currents and air movements behind those very much at all. Sure. Missy and I if we had been friends for 20 years we couldn’t know each other better and it was just instant. And I felt its happiness laced with guilt. But it’s what I needed because ultimately the guilt will fade and the happiness will stay. And I am I’m all in on this. Like I love this person.

[01:50:30] We weren’t saying it at that time but I had known it and I had thought we were soul mates and she had told me she had talked to a psychic about me and certain details like he had. I was tall and I had no tattoos and dark hair and light eyes and that was all correct. Okay weird. And then he mentioned that you know you had the guy I was looking for that was a possible future had a ring. But he’s not married because it’s on his other hand and I routinely wore my wedding ring from the first marriage on my right hand. So when I play music like bass or wherever it doesn’t click. I’m a good guitar neck on the threats and so like little things like that where that’s crazy because that’s a it wasn’t like I was taking off my wedding ring to hide that I was married that. It was just I don’t like the sound it makes from my instruments and little details like that felt like that’s a decision I made were out of control of anyone and I’m starting to believe that we were drawn together and the universe has a plan for us. And I don’t know why I had to do it this way but some higher power made it happen and it was literally like miracles and things that we would hope for. It was wrapping itself around bending it to our will. Just to keep our happiness going. And that was the first time I realized that you know what miracles are is it’s literally love it it’s like positive vibes and good energy things happen for you when you start being happy you know. And like when you’re witness and things are going well.

[01:52:00] I always had this like complex where I thought I’m not fulfilling Jesus commandment. They said he would persecuted to you know like if they persecuted if they hate me they’ll hate you other things are going great for me. What am I doing wrong that I’m not being persecuted. I want some persecution. It’s a sick way of thinking that when stuff going well for you you know you just follow right. You just talked about what we were talking about you know back when we first started this conversation which is you didn’t try to control things you leave things just be. And you found happiness by doing so. Yeah. It’s the same thing. And I won’t go into too much of my marital life and relationship because she is worthy of a podcast all her own. It’s just she’s the best and the happiness I have in my life. I just want do a series on relationships. I would model every good thing after my messy and I’m completely happy about it. However the panic that was happening at a time like when people thought well what do you do. My mom thought I was on drugs and I was being accused of such crazy things that witnesses do not understand and they thought like I was doing this to make some plan to hurt my then wife Jessica like further and at that. Are you insane. I just want to be happy I don’t want to hurt you think I derive any pleasure forever. Do we miss that noise. It hurts. It hurts my boys. I’m feeling everybody in the hall. Everybody is don’t.

[01:53:30] There was a kid I felt that struck me about this like I had insane courage to actually do this but you guys want to make it like this evil thing and. If you think I’m not sorry about it because I’m going through things because I’ve met with the elders and they said well you don’t have to have this. We had a judicial meeting and they said you don’t have to have this you don’t you know there’s room for you can save this. I know that they keep wanting me to say wait scratch that I’ll go back to this dreary situation because then you guys more disciplined me. I wasn’t going to say it. I said no it doesn’t. It’s not for that I said I acted like I’m a cancer and everything I touch I just destroy. And I’m no good for anyone except for right now. I’m good at moving this one person and that’s what I want to do for the rest of my life. And they said all right well they inform me they were disfellowshipped me and they said David we see your business up about this. We see that you’re sorry about this but you know it doesn’t have to end this way and they won’t like stop trying to offer me that. And I said no and they said well we have to dispose of you. I said Fine you have no other bar you have seven days to appeal our decision in written form. It’s a crime wave that let’s just made. As I say your announcement and I don’t want to like on this is my decision.

[01:54:46] And they like this third like talking to each other as opposed to s he’s wanting to make a decision. What do we do. They’re like no on the policy says that we have to give you seven days even though we respect that you agree with our decision not to just waive that right for a viewing. We are we’re going to still give you the seven days and then you say well enough I come to the hall. I’m still a believer in my life. I just need to be with this person. I can be a witness coming to meetings and be with this person. So I’m asking a few questions like Well when I come to the meetings that my kids see me and they want to sit with me even Norby just how can I help them. Can they come over to me and my not allowed to know. That’s a good question. We’ll have to do some research. I’m feeling just like all these people who thought it didn’t hurt because I didn’t see it. I didn’t eat for days. I bawled Missy ball with me. She hated to see that. You think she felt good about the position she was in being this side of it and watching me just beat myself up. She would have to remind me to have a drink in the water that was just bags under my eyes. I’m sure I had cried every ounce of water out of me. It was awful. It was awful.

[01:56:04] But for the first time I was happy on my own terms and I was living on purpose like not an accident like I was born in this religion and accidentally happened. That was my happiness. I was doing it on my own terms. But I still want to do it. If that made sense I just was changing. Democrats salutes me my wife and I. You know I don’t know what the story is that goes around in the circles about why we left but it’s not like it was an easy decision as to disassociate everything that we knew behind. It’s not like it was something we just woke up one day and decide it’s just like it’s not like you woke up one day and we’re like hey you know what I want to leave my kids over here and go be with this person over here. And you know it’s just a whim. No it was a decision that was made over time. And there was a long back story there. It wasn’t even just about you and Missy. I mean you’re living with a wife where you can’t be who you are there either because you can’t discuss your doubts because you have this call that has interjected itself and woven itself into every fiber of your being. And so it takes time to break all that down. There’s so much backstory to any one that leaves or makes a decision like this voluntarily and then people look at you and judge you as though. Well you know look at all the people he’s hurting like you like you didn’t take that into account when you made that decision. You know the fact is don’t you. Go ahead. Go ahead.

[01:57:47] I’m just going say the fact that you are willing to endure all that pain and to take all that on shows exactly how much it meant to you that it was this. This was a huge deal that you were making. You were willing to risk it all for something that meant so much to you which you would think that you like them would applaud because they believe that they you know they gave up their relationships with their quote worldly relatives and family and they left. Fathers and mothers and brothers and sisters so that they could gain something in their cult. You’re doing the same thing on the way out. And yet she has some sort of respect for that. No they don’t. Nobody gets. I think that’s fine because I don’t need them to get it. I was more worried about this. I’m not going to be my dad. I’m not in my life. You know I need to still have a relationship with my boys and explain to them Mom loves you and I love you but we are not together anymore and that’s not anything to do with you and I were just really like pick up the pieces start building my life but letting them know that I’m with Missy and this is what makes me happy. This is a person who is more me than I am at times and it’s just fun to be with someone who gives every breath you draw energy rather than saps your energy and you just feel like this is joyous It’s joyous. It’s not what I wanted it’s not what I had planned. When I started but I do believe something guided us together we’re in a better place.

[01:59:24] And ultimately the fact that it led to my freedom from the cult. I really believe that. But the funny thing happened is it’s all the dichotomy of what it is to pick up those pieces and work out with the ex how you’re going to see your boys and finances and who gets what and going into a divorce. Imagine all that stress rates and I’m still a believing witness. I’m not going to meetings just because I don’t feel I’m good enough to be in the hall at a time so I go to a few odd ones here and there. And never show up wanting to know again. And I remember there was this one time where our I was over dropping the boys back off at their moms house and we had mentioned something happened. I remember I forget what the world event was but I want her know I get that you hate me but don’t think I’m ever out like against you guys. And being that witnesses truly pound their leg. Concentration camps could happen and you guys might be rounded up the Jehovah’s Witnesses will be persecuted. That was legit fear and I remember offering to her like you guys ever have to go into hiding like you can hide with us. Like I want you to know like I will let anyone hide my boys or hurt you like you guys could. And she laughed in my face. Obviously she knew her side might be different. They were my boys would say.

[02:00:48] But I remember thinking like I had I was I don’t derive pleasure from your situation but if if they start rounding up witnesses and I know my boys are part Asian like I’m going to want to reach out and help shield you from the local authorities or whoever will be chasing you. And she laughed and that was just the normal witness conversation as far as I was concerned. It just didn’t have the result I had hoped that she would recognize it. For that I still cared about the well-being of these individuals. Even if I didn’t want to personally say I I’ve known go endure your presence forever because that was not what I wanted. I just don’t want to see people in concentration camps no matter who they are. It gets so much less my boys. And she laughed. I felt hurt. I remember I came home and I told Misty and Misty was like that was the first y’all I realized now I’m talking to not win her seat. She looking at me like I’m I’m insane. And I just thought I had told her where you use your clothes. You can laugh like that. Now that we are like Don’t laugh this is going to happen. And when it does I told her that she did. You know they could hide out at you know whatever I’d help in any way I could. And that kind of was the moment where Misty said I laughed at David and then he was like Don’t laugh because he really believes this. Which means they really believe that. Which means he offered it to that woman who hates him which means it’s a very plausible thing to him right now. I’m going to start doing research and that’s when it all really began.

[02:02:25] After telling Misty about the concentration camp thing and the possibility of us being persecuted where they have to go into hiding as she thought I’m going to look online and see what these witnesses AKAs the stuff he’s telling me is just the you know hunky dory paradise. Everybody gets a panda and you get to eat oversized grapes and all that stuff. So she starts looking into it. And as you can imagine I am like first of all took a lot of strength just to make a decision on my own life. But then the person I’m weird makes me so happy I’m overlooking the fact that she’s got like paranormal ghost like movies the seasons of the episodes and she talks slightly and others others other stuff and I’m thinking army and like this goes against every fiber of my spiritual being that these things are in the house I’m in but I love you and you’re not asking me forcing me to watch them. She was understanding and patient about everything. The same mentality came in here when she starts work researching witnesses. She starts to ask was this true lesson. Oh because sometimes the apostates put it in a way that is true but it’s so brushed off the broad stroke on the negative side. So it does. It’s false on its face as well. Sure. It’s like. So I’d start saying no that’s not true and she’s telling me she’s looking at different sites or reading a book and she starts reading this article book by Anthony James called Knock knock who’s there the truth about Jehovah’s Witnesses. And she took a picture of it.

[02:03:54] And at this time everyone is so curious about her simply for that like I hate even use the term but that other woman factor that she’s getting creeper is from the Kingdom Hall who went Who is she. Well I’m I’ll find out on Facebook or if you’re blocked I’ll look it up and so everyone’s looking it up and she’s kind of a you want to you’ll let it leave us alone like stop driving by the House and trying to figure out you know they just leave us alone like I want to be happy and yet one only thing about me fired. So she asked she wanted to post a picture like this is what I’m listening to this entire Jehovah’s Witness book. Before she even put it up she asked me Would you be comfortable if I posted this picture and I said no. I decide I’m sorry please don’t. And she’s like Well do you want to read the book. I say no because he’s a bitter apostate who just his story is not mine and he’s just going to have nothing but bash. I know what’s on that book. And so I don’t need to listen to it. You can listen to it. I love you and I always like we have us and we don’t need to have a religion between us. But I don’t want it to be divisive between us either. Can we have that kind of agreement and you listen to the book. And she came back at me again and listen to it and really understand what it’s like language in me like great Crowden of friends.

[02:05:12] They’re always like terms that witnesses use that as a person know with no frame of reference here is it it sounds like you know that reading about is an oil business economics that you don’t have a business economics degree you like. This book is awful it just goes over my head. But she’s still respected that she didn’t post a picture when she was listening to the book and I like that she really respected my faith she always even as she is doing research and finding things out about my own faith that I don’t know yet. Instead of saying you need to see this or really like shoving its spoon feeding it down my throat she’s giving you all this leg space to operate in just be me and she knows I’m confused hurt and grieving and there’s a lot going on and she’s just that patient kind loving person who says OK. And I’m not ready for it. And then she asks the question now what does this mean in the book you said that. No. Will they just say that. Well yes but that’s the extreme version of it. He’s trying to dispel some of these things right. And then I’m getting more and more upset with my own like local creationists as it is. I don’t remember when it came about but we Sturr watchings the Leah Remini Scientology series and under Ciccolo. I’ve said it before I’ll say it again. She is like the Rosa Parks of this cult movement. Like if they all come toppling down and she is a large esposa and everything like this is the spark that’s going to start a spectrum fire.

[02:06:44] I don’t think she gets enough credit because the brilliance of that series was I’m okay with making fun of Scientology because they’re crazy you know. So I give myself license to sit and watch this program on faith when I want to give this book she had about my own faith. The same license now however and this is the brilliance of that shock is it. I would never let an apostate in my ruber on my phone or through alterable device. I didn’t want to hear it. I didn’t want to hear it. I knew what it was about and I was scared of apostates and I didn’t want to hear it. Star watching the Leah Remini. Well yeah. That’s like inviting them in your living room. Come on in. Tell us about your faith you know. And so now she’s in the homes throughout the nation of a lot of people who would never let someone else of their own faith coming to their home. Talk about bad on it. And as we’re sitting there and that first statement rolls up on the screen about the Church of Scientology has this claim that might render Leah Remini are bitter apostates who left a lot of circumstances and were never really that good of members anyway. I’m thinking that could you could basically pick after Scientology on the bottom for what to do about contracts society. I would have indiscernible who would wrote that statement. It could have been typed up by anyone at Bethel as like oh my god. OK. Well I’m watching now anyway I’m watching.

[02:08:06] So we’ll see what happens when hear the stories of this crazy cause I want to hear about the guy leaving the planet and others you know stuff and the funny things of it. But as she’s talking about the people in her story and the stories I’m sitting there and I know Misty is more educated on my own faith in me probably with this book already and I’m starting to have those feelings again about I’m feeling things I can’t communicate to my me. I don’t want to know how much this is making my skin crawl because it’s familiar like I don’t ever want her to know that. Like when we look together and say yeah that’s crazy. Can you believe this what we’re seeing right now. And then I look back at a screen saying Good God she just even had no idea what I was. I kind of live that you know. And I tried to act normal just act like this is crazy to you not that it’s very familiar. And as it starts to really release us it will be another episode or another episode. Doors are Biskit are starting to really Krakow’s this disconnect disfellowshipped arm clearing the planet is a sweet term. You know when you’re helping the planet go clear and cytology that’s the same as like marauded language. Witnesses use the truth in the way or a low light in all that I’m just like many like you two twins. This is ridiculous to me. This is so similar. This is exactly something I went through the theology behind his name. But the processional like Don’t read anything from us former members. Okay. That’s exactly what I would say you know.

[02:09:32] This matches up almost 4 legs so eerie it was really eerie where then ever after enough of learning what a real Kalt was and being convinced Scientology was and then it had really really Hunzo uncanny similarities and things in common with my own faith. Well I’m out working one day I’ll give that book a listen. So I give the new James book a listen. And the first part is like memoir where he’s just telling his story. And even as he’s telling his story and very thinking’s Oh yeah well you’re a bad witness. You know you knew you were going into this and you’re going what do you expect. You know yeah your story stinks. You know by that feel for you and it’s clear for me to just say that you were a bad witness. You were never that strong. It’s no shock during the predicament you’re in. You know that’s what my judgment on witness mind was still saying through the memoir part I’m the victim. Yes. Then he gets to the part where he starts dismantling the beliefs. And I’m like oh OK exchange. Remember I remember how she hit me because I washed windows to work like any good Jehovah’s Witness. You know you pick something and you can do your own hours. Absolutely. And I was washing windows and I remember like getting to that part in the book. All right. I can’t work and listen anymore like this is sit in your car and kind of just take a few minutes and he got through all wives just a flawed system. And so my mind had already been like OK it’s it’s not the truth. It’s lies.

[02:11:06] It’s lies. OK I got that. It’s lies. I understand that it’s lies. And I hate that XYZ and thereafter go back to thank goodness but it’s imperfect men running off flawed system. And I accepted that. And then the very next chapter is now that we’ve dismantled the beliefs in and of themselves. Here’s the darker side. And he starts going into like what cults are with the bite model and I’m realizing I’m a guy now. I was ready to quit. It was a flawed belief system. I could handle that. These are imperfect men. You know they say as much right all themselves. But the fact that it was a cult and it had exerted control over me through theB.I tea and I just. It’s true it’s true it’s absolutely true and I think it was the last thing I wanted to admit. I could walk away from a faith realizing it’s not what it claims but the fact that they actually have a high moral agenda behind their group crushed me. I never wanted to say it was a cult. I wanted to say it was a perfect and I want to say it was flawed but there wasn’t that darker side of it. And that book really I remember just quitting work that day it’s a make of hours. And I came home crying and Misty was like I was raised in a cult. I have to admit that now I don’t. Last thing I ever want to admit there’s no joy you get from giving up that last vestige of that last ghost Ward.

[02:12:36] Yes it’s a perfect but it’s not a cult. It’s also it’s also a little bit of an ego hit to realize that somebody essentially pranked you that you were manipulated that somebody owns you in that way. It’s it took me a while before I could use a term called. Now I have no problem with that. But yeah it took me a little while before I could say the word cult because you know living in a cult is what those crazy bastards on TV. Did you see that that’s not me. That can’t be me. And then when you. But once I realized the manipulation and the things that were behind it the dark side like you said yeah I have no problem calling it a call now but it’s still those first times that I did. I mean it just like a gut punch just lies saying man like I gave decades on deck my life I wasted in someone else’s sick game. And and it’s something you can never get back. Which honestly is part of the reason I’m doing things like this podcast is because it’s I guess it’s just on some level my way of making something good out of it because otherwise it’s hard for me to accept that you know what else did I get out of that. Like it just took for me for all those years. Yes. Like I’ve gotta make something of this because otherwise I have a hard time processing processing it especially you know where I am now and seeing this is you know this is the only life that at least I have evidence of their being for me that I wasted what half of it in that.

[02:14:37] You know it’s it’s it’s a tough it’s a tough thing to come to terms with it is and I remember too like he is going through the book. Are you familiar with the book at all that the new James book. No I’ve never heard of this one. It’s own audible it’s good. Knock knock Who’s there. The truth about those witnesses is very good. And then he has a part in there where as he’s going through his dismantling of a bit like there’s some things that don’t resonate as strongly as that’s forgivable. Okay so the society did this. That’s forgivable. When he gets into the fact that like they were part of the United Nations. I was beside myself that they were registered members because I was raised with that book being some of my favorite pitchers in the world. The revelation book. I knew theU.N. was bad. I knew and then I’m thinking wait what. You know like I can if you didn’t understand a scripture. That’s one thing. Your mind wasn’t fully enlightened. The light Adiga. This is a deliberate action a political move and it disgusted me. And then you hear about the 1975 staff which like that they were buying they weren’t selling. They were like we always have heard 1975 be talked about in terms of the people who don’t like it were those who got greedy and sold. They’re both trying to get rich think they’re Bartletts. Then we heard about the ones who bought boats and bought the big houses thinking they all never have to pay off those loans because the end’s coming.

[02:16:02] That’s who was always portrayed to me were the better ones right. One his book said there were people who said what happened selling them. Selling my house. To give it to the society. Going give that money to the branch gonna send it to New York because I’m gonna finish the system pioneering good people who actually gave what they had and then when they became disillusioned that the society say sorry we were wrong here’s your house and boat back. Use all your materials. Heck no. They know they kept it all and I’m thinking now we’re talking rank and file good hearted people who are trying to do what was right not just misinterpreting the scripture like you had the power to release those funds back to them where you were wrong. Instead you shame them and you picked a few cherry picked examples of like someone maybe did sell their house or bought a bigger house thinking they want to have to pay it off and that person has right to be bitter but again they were only ever in that situation because of what you said. Like really killed me they didn’t really say those things. I know you know what’s crazy is actually as much as I’ve been on this like my family and everybody else and I recently had a discussion with my mom. My mom didn’t talk to me for her much through all this.

[02:17:15] I was on drugs and she want nothing to do with me and she said such things about she said them things about missing out really hurt and I just like actually your podcast this GW life helped me a lot when you would mention to your sister in law that your mom tried to smooth things over and her response was something like Why would I. You won’t talk to your son. Why would I want to have a relationship so I don’t either. That is exactly how it is like. And it’s not even about me leaving the faith that she wants to say that’s the reason she’s shunning me but like why would I want to do anything with you. If you are the greatest woman I’ve ever known. And now I’m married to is this way. Then why would I miss you to be your friend. Like I’m the greatest man she claims to have ever known and that you won’t talk to me please like so it became a very easy thing. However just recently my mom which is such a mess that situation because my family my sister got reinstated would be my mom really happy because now out of all the kids she’s raised. What you are the one was murdered of course but she’ll be in the paradise. And then my older brother is disfellowshipped so until he gets his act together he wanted my younger brothers to fellowship and until he gets his act together he probably won’t but my sister is back now and I’m in a ministerial servant about to give talks. So all this is her mindset. You know everything is good for her. Yes. However before before I do all of this. Even my sister kind.

[02:18:42] My mom comes down like cancer in 2014 I believe and we did like one of the last times we were all together as siblings was at this meeting where we think maybe mom’s going and she tells us all this stuff and I remember being a witness and treating them like it was fun sitting with them but also very condescending to how I sat around and talked to them and I thought they were all just like lost people and my sister and I wrote down together and she took it hard. Then she came back with me and the next trip she went down and I think the stress just got to her something but she had caved in on the ride one of these trips down dealing with her mom’s like stuff without me and she stopped about smokes so she starts smoking again. Right. The elders the local elders here show her mercy and say that she just needs to get her head right. They go to her house. They make calls on her to this day still saying well what can we do to get you to come back. Are you interested in this or that. It’s such a weird thing when I think of it. Now everything’s coming back to me ever once. I was out in service and I had no idea where my sister lived and I was at the door and my sister answers it and I called you know I roll my eyes. You are behind this door all day. I find you in service and instead of saying anything I just say hey for finished you work it no longer here. I have this book. She’d like to read it. Here you go. I kind of thrust the letter and then I start walking down the stairs.

[02:20:12] The guy I was with was he moved in after my glasses. And he won. He immediately started really happy about my and things and he was asked that I would say if you want to read it I tell him my dissociates sister. Then also she’s back home to. And it kind of became this thing where once she finally got back and then she just kind of started smoking again. Faded the elders know she smokes. They know a lot about her and they go over and they talk to her try to encourage her and I had already reengaged in the shunning. I hate to admit that but I started she’s living a life that’s not witness enough you or they have a slacker. You know Don label on her that says you’re disfellowshipped. I was taking the personal step and saying I’m not going to have much outside of this to do with her guy here I really hate saying that but anyway my mom still talking to her. Everyone’s talking to her because they view her as redeemable. They just got to get her to quit smoking and get coming to the Kingdom Hall again it should be fun. So they’re going through all the steps and then my life uproots right. I do all I do and I’m right away. A different case where I’m on drugs I’m evil. I did the unthinkable left the relationship and my mom walked up to me and then she still talking to my sister who’s living and I’m actually living a clean life you know the divorce Aguada as paper goes to the courts.

[02:21:47] My life was uprooted more suddenly than but you got divorced got remarried you’re living with someone I’m only married to you the only woman in my life and I don’t smoke or drink or gamble like Miles slaving away. I’m good clean person. And yet my mom won’t talk to me and my sister. She’s kind of in the middle of issues. I tell mom all time she’s being terrible do you do that like all of a sudden you are this evil person who Shonda and you’re just like dad. She won’t talk to you and then I go down to visit her as she lets me have cigarette breaks on her back porch. I come back in and she resumes talking to me just fine. And I’m thinking you know so there’s that family part of it that’s really confusing to me. I’m thinking far right. I don’t. You’re never going to be close to me and miss you anyway. But the double standard if you can talk to Julie cause she doesn’t have that label on her is ridiculous to me and enduring think that’s ridiculous. All of the siblings think it’s ridiculous that my mom would talk to her because she had faded even though clearly doing things against the witness way. But I was off the table as far as having communications and it’s like really really bizarre but we just she needed a ride somewhere recently so we had helped out. We got talking and I asked my mom you know we kind of mended some fences actually where we might not ever agree on a religion but we can maybe have a relationship with each other if she wants to do it and that’s the only cure for it.

[02:23:09] Like know who I am as a person and not like who you think I can be as a fixer upper if I just get back into religion. That’s off the table. Do you think my wife wants to be a she joins the religion that’s off the table just if you want to know who we are. That would be the basis of the relationship. But in this mending fences conversation where we kind of hash it out talk about Dad we talk about the elders. She tells me where she’s not happy with her current husband. She tells me all this other stuff and then I asked her Well what do you think happened in 1975 and she came in right around 1972 she was baptized but she says well we knew it was ending and this is the person who this is. This blows my mind. I’ve been thinking about this for like the last four days. She told me I went to Canada and I think I was right around 1973 74 or maybe and she goes and I heard a talk from brother Noor and Nathan HRN president of the society at the time in Canada at a convention she says he chastised people. We all knew the end was coming and he said what are you doing starting painting your house at this day and age and in this time in history like would you brag you know polished brass in the sinking Titanic or whatever. We shouldn’t be thinking about long terms like this. Your kids will never go to school. He gave some talk where they said all this stuff because 1975 was for sure the end.

[02:24:35] And she just told me this like 40 years ago and I was like what the president of the society at the time said that clearly. And she’s like yeah. And then she goes and I remember your dad and I were a little upset because shortly thereafter they started posting pictures and they sent pictures of like the Stanley Theatre being remodeled and the Kingdom half way. We were going to you know they told us not to paint houses because the end was coming in there and get this huge construction you know remodel going on like was it didn’t sit well with her that they were going to take on this huge expense in this giant endeavor of redoing this property. Not long after when they were the ones condemning the rank and file for beginning a long term project. And I was just dumb. I still am dumbfounded that you could hear a talk from the president say something in such clear terms. And she would. Mind you this is a fully indoctrinated woman to this day who still believes like every like she won’t. And I don’t get how she was able to put that to the back of her mind. But even at all these years later that kid that would never go to school has now been murdered and dead for almost 20 years. And her baby has gone through school and excuse me.

[02:25:51] It’s just to me that so long ago and you heard it in no uncertain terms and now you even know it like you heard it in no uncertain terms and you believe these people because while they’re imperfect she says in the Bible look at what they did give you an Korris God’s name and you have a lot of important things right. And I’m just like I can’t even I can’t imagine someone hearing that much. It’s mind blowing isn’t it. It just it just goes to show. Jehovah’s Witnesses could do any thing and still keep their members. Now they’ll lose some. There’s always going to be some attrition through these things but at some point I have a feeling they’re going to have to get rid of the year 1914 and I have a feeling that they’re going to do so they’ll do it quietly because you know time will go on and people continue to die and they will find ways around their doctrines and people will still believe it. Because again it gets down to what your mom said well look what they did give us or who else who else taught us Jehovah’s name. And it’s like Jehovah is not even an accurate translation of the word of the letters. It’s it’s all made up and it doesn’t matter to them because they’re on some level it fits some need that these people have and they are willing at this point I think it sunk cost. They’ve already put so much in it. They can’t afford to leave. Yeah that’s part of it. They think I can’t leave this because look I’ve already given so much to this. I mean it takes a lot of courage and it’s very hard to leave something like that to admit to yourself and to everyone else that you lived a lie and this. Yeah.

[02:27:55] And the thing is my mom she retreated deeper into the truth through all the trauma she went through in her life with losing her daughter and the husband. So she knew they really really went anywhere even knowing they got dissociative break or something that has that effect. She. They were there for her during those times. They were that’s what got her through those times. So it’s it’s her back now even if she’s unhappy with it and can see bigotry and can see double standards. I don’t think she ever will awake in that sense. But it’s funny because the thing is to like the saddest part is my mom is a lot like me in that she blames herself for everything and the society like has this thing about everybody else in our kingdom hall all his kids stating the truth. All their kids did and the truth stayed together. I got divorces and I got all these kids now on the fellowship and one who’s not. But basically she’s living a worldly life of sorts. No she’s not pretending to be a witness in any way and that doesn’t mean anything. What the good people are the people you raised but yet a witness mom sees herself as a failure. I failed as a parent because I couldn’t make my children ascribe to my belief system. And that is so sad.

[02:29:07] And then you get children like me and like anyone else with things I feel my mom because I couldn’t just buy any longer and it’s like you think a system that measures a parent’s success or failure solely based off of whether or not they join their religion they were born into a stay forever is like right there would be like if you were an accountant you know and you say if I can’t you know you might I couldn’t raise my kid to be an accountant I failed as a parent. Like this just ludicrous to me. There you know that you would expect that to be the same generationally. You’re correct. Well I mean I’m a good narcissist wants to churn out copies of himself and that’s what the organization teaches people to do. There’s a scripture in think proverbs An’s in the New World Translation that Jehovah’s Witnesses use it says train up a boy in the way in which he should go and he will not turn aside from it. Well I once heard in other translations. Instead of saying train up a boy. And the way in which he should go. Or maybe it’s in the way in which he should what it says in other translations it says train up a boy in the way in which he is bent. In other words. The difference is Jehovah’s Witnesses say train up a boy and the way in which he should go. Here is a prescribed way. This is the path and train up this boy to follow this path. Exactly. But there are other translations say train up a boy in the way in which he is bent. Or in other words in the way in which in that child’s strengths in the way that that child is used is instead of a prescribed path. It says OK look at that kid who is this child. What are his capabilities what are his strengths and weaknesses.

[02:31:05] Now let’s let’s hope this boy find the path that fits who he is instead of going along a one size fits all prescribe path. And that’s the difference between Jehovah’s Witnesses and a lot of other religions. Jehovah’s Witnesses have this one path and they believe that their children are to follow that path exactly and be little copies of themselves little mini me’s. And if they are not. If they fail to be able to live up to and be exactly what I am as the parent or as the organization then they are failures and I am a failure for not being able to get them to go exactly down that one specific path. And it’s very sad that the organization has even recently come out. I believe it was everyone’s favorite governing body member tight pants Tony Anthony Mora’s who came out and actually basically said that if your children fail to go down that prescribed path then you need to look at yourself and blame yourself and see what it was that you did wrong as a parent. That is disgusting. And it is the way that I mean if that’s not a cult. What is God you’ve been hearing it makes me so upset because you never want to wish evil on someone but something minor like I get some shampoo in your eyes. MORRIS You think you’re much more caring than I am I wish. But I really wish evil upon him. Now I understand. It’s it’s it’s so disgusting and it’s so twisted. And they watch that. Yeah I’ll watch that. Yeah. When it came out and I can’t remember it was in the last.

[02:33:04] I want to say in the last year too when when is this talk or this part was given. I just remember there was a lot of outrage in the Jehovah’s Witness community about you know just what a horrible thing that is to say to the parents of these ones and how it’s honestly kind of like using them as Jehovah’s Witnesses once again to get at their parents to say no to guilt their parents and to guilt these Jehovah’s Witnesses for leaving. Because look at what it’s going to do to their parents. Because we’ve now made them think that they’re horrible people because you turned out like you did. It’s just it’s so insidious and it’s so. It’s just it’s evil. It is truly evil. And that is it really is. I remember too when we stirred the governing body became more and more visible that we get to start seeing wow this is look they’re they’re so personable and they will mingle with the loans and you get to see them and I got to meet Geoffrey Jackson at one of the assembly that I was so proud of. You know I remember when we we get to be privy to what goes on at the annual meeting. And then when he got up there and did his you know tight pants around feeling like I kind of like the hipster Métro look actually I feel like that’s OK. But I’ll never forget afterwards. The like. My then wife Jessica and her sister in law at the time they were all talking like no.

[02:34:35] But they’re such comfortable pants should we should we not wear the yoga pants anymore and they’re already thinking about making life changes and I remember telling them like girls don’t be ridiculous like the dude you see his haircut. If I tried on stage with that haircut it was like wild off the back like like you tell that man to get a haircut before he’s going to tell you what to wear. Just like they do. They looked at me like I had no blasphemed. Basically by this remember thinking Don’t change your pattern no matter what you like. You know what. Discretion is where what you’re comfortable and you’re not going to the hall in that it’s like I felt like he was overstepping its bounds and had no freedom of speech to say such just looking how he himself looked on the platform that day. I thought yeah you know this is you just was really into that guy and see that guy. Is I’m not trying to use the word. I mean it’s a serious time not trying to use it as an insult. That guy is mentally ill. Well he is one of the most disconnected from reality. I think there is right think has problems and it’s obvious in all of these governing body members that have come out from behind the curtain. If you look at them I mean it’s Wizard of Oz you know pay no man pay no attention to the man behind the curtain because he’s just this little nothing. And that’s what they are. They have come out from behind the curtain and they have put their crazy on full display. And thankfully it’s woken some people up.

[02:36:11] But unfortunately so many people buy it which again shows that they’re not going to change and they can get their members to do whatever they want. They will buy into whatever next round of crazy they put out there. Yeah. So is that then woke you up. I mean ultimately this book ultimately I became fully awake by that book. But then I started listening like you’re a podcast you actually helped me a lot come not just from the fact that it’s one thing to say it’s a bad faith and it’s no longer for me. But then it’s another when you’re fully awake and you realize I want to pull the fire alarm and get everyone out that I can like that. When that happens it’s not just no longer not for me like that was because of podcasts like Um jt and Lady C they helped me a lot. I questioned the timing the critical thinkers stuff because right away these are probably two people who feel they wasted their lives because he was all the way up in Bethel and that he had given himself to really go on up in the organization and I hope that he never feels that way because what he was doing was actually building the credentials that I can listen to a podcast and say This isn’t some fake person just acting like a Jehovah’s Witness that wants to save their own message. Which do you believe any apostate could be a liar and all that this guys he knows the truth speak. He’s he’s got the language I was raised speaking.

[02:37:37] This is a legit person who’s legit experience and you can tell he’s research like I can hear it in his words that this person he had to do that path to build those credentials where someone like me who doesn’t want to hear necessarily just the bitterness but like crisis of conscience has a lot of heart. John Cedar’s has a lot of heart. Your podcast has a lot of heart. It’s not just rail against and bashing with. You’re just lookin for pitchforks and torches that mob mentality where the heart of people who were hurt and they did care and they just can’t unlearn the things they learned. That’s what spoke to me and I felt like GTM ADC. They come from. He raised raising Canada but maybe Michigan or DC now so I forget where they’re from but anywhere they live in a big city and I remember feeling like for me in my whole little town where all the elders knew me and hearing them from an urban area with a bigger congregations and lots of shifting moving parts in the city. I felt like very relieved that all this is not. It’s not just my local elders are a botched job like the organization the world over. It’s the same in the rural as it is in the city. This is how the organization is run and it was very nice to see that in an urban area they got the same problems they got the same. It’s not just a click because I live in an area where Renaults are aware that it’s all over. That’s that’s the witnesses as universal as they claim their love is their flaws are just as universal not lately. And that was really good for I heard that podcast and he’s so researched I would hear him break a point down.

[02:39:17] And you JT knows this stuff. You can just feel it through the words and then yours. Help me a lot from a personal journey because I had naturally like all of them even the little things like I had put on weight and my unhappy marriage. No surprise there. And now I’m keeping it off. And believe it or not masturbation is not a problem for me. It literally just dissolved once my mind was happy. It was like some anxious habit I was doing through all those years of unhappiness and I have a wife now who I respect as a person an individual and even when I was a witness I hated the way they treated women. I had known readers who were like awful I’m thinking get this guy off stage there are ten sisters in here who can read better than him you know and I’ve felt like what do you guys get this idea that women can’t speak up or you know even in the Bible that if they have a baby girl they’re unclean for twice as long instead of just like seven days. If it’s a boy 14 if it’s a girl. The Bible is a book that’s just horrid to women. You know. I started to feel really like it’s not a timeless book it’s not a book that has a lot of truth for me and I’m becoming fully awake and then I hear your story. Your podcast help me and I start to realize my own experiences tell me that there’s a spirituality by firmly believe it’s an individual pursuit. It was never ever ever meant to be institutionalized.

[02:40:40] You can talk to someone about your experiences and spiritual beliefs but like it’s your relationship with the creator. That’s all it ever is and it’s not meant to be chargit. You know I’m gonna let ever trusted again to any institution be it. Lutherans or Buddhists or Daoism kind of appeals to me but that’s more just a philosophy than a religion. And I feel like there’s a lot of just you know your yes your mantra that you say you know love others do no harm and go be happy like that’s just how I feel. And then I heard you talking about. You put on weight and you ask that through my fitness pal which I had to go through. And now the weight stays off. Now my bad habits I was never liked my anxious things have stayed off and I’m happily married and you get to realize what a happy marriage is and my life is infinitely better except for my kids are still being raised in this religion. However I’m so glad that they have me in their life because I think through through me and Mesi and exposing not like letting them see for themselves that my way of life is probably just not attractive enough on its own. Yes they’ll grow up and they should be wiser than I was and I don’t want them. I just sent an e-mail to their mom not long ago like basically saying I don’t want them baptized until they’re 18 if we can work that out. She didn’t respond but I thought there’s too much history of holding a young child to this forever. When they make their decision making at that point is ridiculous.

[02:42:10] There’s no way they can grasp that they won’t think the same later than they do now and then Gina respond. I thought like if they do you can believe what you believe but don’t shun them. You know what I don’t want them to ever feel like their no kids should know the pain of being treated like their dad when they’re still alive. Isn’t that that interesting. I was actually thinking about just that when you were talking earlier about how you know you had this first baby and you were holding this baby. This kid of yours and you were just thinking about you know how much you loved this new than a life that you know and I was thinking you know can you imagine then turning around and shunning them because no what think what you want with me. That was another thought. I always knew that we kind of made fun of my ex-wife and I just forgot the time when I was in that organization made fun of my mom because we knew she was talking to my disfellowshipped brothers and sisters. But every time she talked to us she was like oh I don’t really have any unnecessary communication with them but she always like that throw those disclaimers out you know like your overcompensation for how little you talk to them. Makes me believe that every time you talk like I was disfellowshipped once Mom I know that you have you in your own way. You hobnob and you justify all the excuses to do it. And then my then wife Jessica was very hard on the idea like yeah that’s not right.

[02:43:36] You know and I was like you know you revisit your families all in the organization. Well Sue Smith my son ever decides he’s going to do some. Well then we’ll see how you act. But in my back or mind I could never voice it. But I knew I don’t. I’m going for as much as we laugh about her trying to cover up that she’s talking. I’m probably going to be the same guy and just talk to him all the time because hobnobbing or whatever it is like because you lost support. Yes. I mean you haven’t yet had you. They didn’t do a successful job of rooting out your humanity in the cold. They didn’t. They didn’t destroy your. They didn’t deaden your feelings. They didn’t destroy who you were. And you know that’s something they do to most people. So I would say honestly including myself they had destroyed a large part of yes my sensitivity and made me very hard and dark so their god it’s funny when you hear it now because now I feel so free like I feel like you know when a plane crash goes down and everything burns up and all the bodies are you know everyone dead right. Yet they recover that little black box and can tell you what happens. Some part of me that humanity that little black box was recovered and I rebuilt myself and there’s a new clean around. And it’s just the best feeling to feel like God. The crash and burn hurt but now that you’re you again I mean for the first time in my life.

[02:45:09] It’s exactly like October I went to my brother my brother’s wedding and this is the first time he’s been married and I’ve missed every sibling’s wedding. This is the first time a Brabin Earthlings wedding because I was too high and mighty to not oh I heard through the grapevine mom that you know things that happened to my one brother was married and I never said Congratulations when’s your anniversary I’m glad to hear it for your heart. I hope you’re happy. I was just like oh good. Just one more call that Satan has in you that keeps you in his world. You know there was such condensation about it and to go there. I was beside myself with giddy joy and just tears all the time and apologizing. And even though these are ex witnesses so they get the game. My brother Ruben couldn’t be better. He was like dude don’t I get it. I’ve been stuck. That is the part is that we’re here to be happy with you that way. Thanks for having me here today. And you know there is that touch of hurt where there is no doubt in my mind. And I hate to say this like it matters it doesn’t. But I always knew growing up I was going to be the best man ever that Rubin’s wedding music gave me the best man. Right. And then our lives derailed. We fell out of contact. And I was just happy to be in attendance. You know yeah was ever something that weighed in the balance when it occurred to me as a child. Yes. So then.

[02:46:40] So you mentioned your children then are currently I guess they are with their mom the majority of the time. And maybe yeah we got the weekends and like extra time they have off from school and like somewhere I can get them for longer spurts if I wish. But I’m on basically the alternating weekend schedule. Gotcha. And so. So then they are are they primarily being raised then as witnesses currently. Well not here not here. They are over there. But my ex has actually gotten married too. So they’re struggling they live in a bigger city now and they miss their old home. They’re adjusting to a new man. Like you know one is for and he’s going to be for February. He’s pretty easy to well just because he’s so young still. No one who remembers everything now he’s 7 but he’s starting to exhibit some so he’s got some behavioral stuff that he’s an angry 7 year old. My parents got divorced. You’re young confused who the world does make sense and your mom tells you dad is not going to make it into paradise and you love your dad and you hate that that’s a thing. It’s she shouldn’t have to worry about that. So we tried to make very clear boundaries of like can I ask. Has that literally happened that has. That’s a true thing. Yeah. You. His mom has really told him that you want to be in paradise. Well someone has because they came they came to my house one time one visit and he was having a moment where I sat him down and talk we’ll go out with as well. What’s why are you acting this way.

[02:48:11] And he was you know crying until her dad. Are you going to be in the paradise. You know I say what. No I don’t. Misty was there as she cast that and thankfully because she’s got a really good way with that as well. Some people call her. Some people call it heaven. Some people you know make an eternal reward and I doubt whether his grandparents or his mom or whoever said it that even if it was just inferred that anyone who doesn’t go to them that’s why do you think that he says you don’t go to the meetings and I say right. You know that this the Bible say you have to go to meetings to make it in producer doesn’t say that God judges your heart. And I asked them what do you think of my heart my good man or a wicked man. And he’s a good man. Yeah. And only God can see that right. So he gets to make a decision. So whoever said I wasn’t going to they don’t get to make that decision. Only God knows my heart. And I think you know my heart when you smile and laugh that we were just like. It’s a messed up seem to think. To see those pictures that kids see and think oh my dad that could be him that could be them you know he’s not alcohol and I just feel for them. However the great thing is now we’ve established I are very good at like we’ve got a lot of counseling the two of us. And I want my kids to go to counseling.

[02:49:27] I want people to talk about their feelings and we will talk more and be open communication. There’s a lot and we’ve already got him where he’s excited about. We don’t tell him you have to talk about Christmas you’re celebrating Christmas with us but when he’s here. Like any kid it’s just normal. He jumps any wants to make Christmas tree crafts he wants to be which presents have my name on them and he knows that he’s to get birthday parties at me. And I asked him how that went. His mom said she’s not mad at me if I want to do it. She said OK I mean you’re obviously mad at me but I think that’s good because know if you want your kid first of all the onus is on her if she wants to enforce all those things especially the gray area stuff that witnesses teach like not just interpretations of the Bible but like the birthday stuff is like to why he can’t be a football you explain to him why he can’t have a beard if he wants one like you explain to him why. Yes it’s a suit but the cuffs around the ankles are too tight like honestly like. If you want that the onus is on you to explain it which hopefully will spur her to really do more research. And anyone who does enough research enough questions are raised and you start to realize much like I was realizing I don’t have a good answer for why I went to a blood transfusion or that I could ever shown him. I don’t have that answer. You know they don’t. It doesn’t. My heart says a different answer.

[02:50:48] And I just feel that is the tough questions are raised to a person that they have to think about maybe they can think about them and whether or not they ever wake up. I believe my boys through our household and I’ve fought and fought for some of their rights like at school he can do a gingerbread house. Coming up this season and we sat down I was doing at the conference as to their father away. But as the teachers asked us well what fast can they sing what can we do here. I actually got I won this argument out where I got them to say I want him to have a choice if he says he’s not comfortable singing a Christmas song Don’t make him do it but don’t just remove him from the classroom and he has to feel that you know he’s already dealing with a lot just moving there and everything in his life but that ostracism and now I’m not normal. It’s like giving him the choice and realizing he can use his voice and has the power of his own voice should give him a sense of I’m worthy. I’m important my voice matters and I will tell him there’s no there’s no harm in singing a song. It was a Christmas song. What’s a winter song is Jingle Bells say anything about Santa Baby Jesus or is it just wintery. Like like I want him to be able to use his mind and encourage critical thinking skills where eventually it’s going to poke holes through flimsy arguments rather quickly but I fear. I think that he’s there showing it.

[02:52:12] You know it’s easy to throw a kid wants candy and cake right but I want him not to feel like it’s just a reward if he says hi or happy birthday to a kid on his birthday. It’s classroom. I said the schools are separation of church and state anyway. They’re not going to be like our religious institution where beeg thought he had the bully removed. And then I kind of e-mail the teacher and teachers start this thing and I could hear on the other line you know she was just hating every second of it but kind of knew she was on the ropes so she had to agree she’s like. OK. He has a choice. If she if he has a choice or he doesn’t let him sing a Christmas song. Well we’re not on the same page. How do you feel and she would say but then she kind of had to say if he has the choice it’s just it’s not a religious institution that can’t be that damaging to anyone’s face. And so at least he’s big at the freedoms that I never had. You know the nation and either different. Yeah. Yeah. And I’m showing it to them in a way that like most witnesses when you leave want your life to fall in shambles you know and the fact that I have a good clean life attractive and things are going well. And it has nothing to do with blessings from Jehovah. I think that they’ll be really smart enough to just see that it speaks for itself or even if they decide they want to be witnesses. I hope that they decide it.

[02:53:37] If that’s what they want and then if they get themselves disfellowshipped and say oh geez Marcia treated me differently then dad who is the exact same he takes my fourth car he tells me he loves me and I could be whatever I wanted and he’s happy to just say spread your wings son you’re my son. And I just wanted to have kids to watch them grow. You know it becomes something more than what they were. That’s all I’m in this for you know. So what about you. What you have any dreams for your new life. I mean any goals for the future something that you and Missy or just you or looking forward to. Well goals. I just want to be happy I want to see the world I want to travel. I’ve got a dog now and we just got this puppy and I take our walks all the time. And I used to have a dog and it was a bad honor. I was terrible dog owner. He stayed outside. Is he going to be in the house because the allergies of like my in-laws when they would visit so he was outside all the time. I never walked him because it was literally go windows all day or go on. I did a bike ride I had to do things and then you come home and you’re something Craddock stealing your time. You know I was a bad business owner because it’s work work work all day and age being like I’ll leave this job half done and then come back and finish and like I get to be a good dog owner. I get to be a good business owner.

[02:55:01] I get to be better at the things I’m already doing in wanting to do because I can more fully invest myself and not feel like it’s a guilt you know how much time did do. Doing this activity like I’ve been taught to Bob bicycling as much as I have. They said wow you know how much this is by are you going to be a the. What’s the point and say Oh well then why why why why train as many hours as you need to. Well don’t you think those hours in the ministry would be better than you know like hours on a bicycle and stuff. And I just do I get to live and I can go to a movie and not worry if it’s like where radar has it’s like I’m an adult. And if it has nudity or whatever it may have I think I can handle it. You know I will walk out the same person that walked in and just say yes that was excessive our former opinion about or whatever. But when you if you just get to if you don’t want to just you you get to be me. I get to learn who I am. I’m a real dog hunter this time not just somebody who wanted a pet but never had the time to do it the right way before. Because it’s a responsibility. It’s a task and I had already felt over responsibility and task in her well that’s beautiful man.

[02:56:19] I mean ultimately it sounds like you found happiness and yet so you know you know like I think it’s an amazing place to be when you don’t have to have you know these future goals that you know you’re hoping like this will bring me happiness or some dream or something because you live in the dream you do your being who you want to be and you’re doing what you want to do. And you know that’s all any of us can hope for. And that’s exactly what Jehovah’s Witnesses steal from people so you have taken it all back. And I think I wish you the best and I think that that’s that’s a beautiful thing and you know just like I say at the end of every podcast I guess love others do no harm and go be happy. It sounds like your. Is the dream Oh I always had a hard time to like even going on vacations you know how when you go on vacations or there’s a kind of holiness towers stop. And my ex-wife. She was always somehow she has this balance but she’s die diehard at the same time where they have no problem not going to a meeting. But I would always have a guide we should be going it’s Sunday. You know we should be going you know we should we should do this and say well all vacation and it’s like you have a disconnect. Where does that come from. I wish I had that. And yet she’s someone who would never ever probably leave the organization and yet me as a person who felt guilty. Any time we traveled somewhere I should be at a meeting hour. Are we going to bring a suit just in case. And it’s and it’s like that’s my life now is I get to travel anywhere.

[02:58:00] I don’t care about me. It’s nice to not worry. Am I going to get my time in on this part of the month. That’s it’s just I’m living my life and on my own terms not on the mere accident. I was born into a faith that my mom decided she liked I want to thank you for listening to David story today. The final part of this story a bonus episode will be released next week in Please subscribe so that you can get it in all of these stories automatically as they’re released. Each time please also show David and other support by going to my Web site shunnedpodcast.com and if you go to the episodes page there you can leave a comment for any of the people who are telling their story. They can not only read but they can also respond to your comments. So just go to shun the podcast dot com and go to the episodes page and you’ll see an individual post for each story and you can reply and comments on those stories. You can also find links to things on there that have helped each person as they were waking up and leaving the cult if you want to hear my personal story. You can listen to a podcast called this JW life or go to the Web site thisjwlife.com. And that was my personal story. It’s a nine part series. And you can if you’re not familiar with the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses you can really learn a lot there about how they function what they teach.

[02:59:44] Alongside my personal story one find a way to show support is to leave a review on iTunes just leaving a five star review leaving your personal comments whatever it is that impacted you. This helps other people to find the podcast so that they can get the help that they might need as well. So I’ll send this one out the way I send them all out love others do no harm and go be happy.