Episode Ten – DJ is shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses

DJ Is Shunned By Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:10] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we get to hear stories from people that have been silenced by controlling religion. Today we’re going to hear from D.J a guy that is shunned by Jehovah’s witnesses so that they don’t have to face the truth. Before we get started I wanted to introduce the new format. Some of you probably noticed that things have changed its arms from episode to episode. And honestly that’s because I’m trying to find the right mix here. When I was done doing my other podcast called this JW life where I told my personal story. I was contacted by others and people wanted me to help them tell their story. To be quite honest I wasn’t really ready for it. Telling my story was a big deal. I was kind of overwhelmed by it all to some extent. And so when others wanted me to help them to tell their stories I was doing it. But honestly I wasn’t that comfortable with it. So at first my goal was to keep myself out of the interview. I didn’t want to make this podcast about me. I just did one about me and that level of vulnerability was kind of tiring so I felt like I was thrown into an interviewer’s role but I wasn’t really comfortable with my abilities as an interviewer. It’s not something I’ve ever really done before so as a result I would remove my audio and produce more individual stories. Well over time some of the people that I interviewed asked me to be in the story with them.

[00:01:41] They said it would make them more comfortable but honestly it was making me more uncomfortable. Then came David in these last episodes and his story was so involved that I couldn’t edit it. I had to leave me in it and it kind of pushed me out there as an interviewer. I received some feedback from people that liked having me in it more. And I’ve been asked to be in it more by the people that I’ve interviewed. So now you’re stuck with me. I’m finding my voice as an interviewer I hope and people seem to like it so I’m going to try to go ahead and settle in here. Now I’m feeling more comfortable as an interviewer but I’m trying to stay out of the way as much as possible because I still want the focus to be on the person that I interview. I hope to add my own flavor in my own way. With this episode the podcast will go over 7000 downloads which is amazing to me. ThisJ.W. life my original podcast which covered my story and the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses has now gone over 18000 downloads so it’s exciting to know that these are making some sort of a difference and to hear feedback from people. So let’s go ahead and get into a story and afterword I’m going to give some more information that you’ll want to stick around for. My name’sD.J. I’m 27 years old. I was one of Joves witnesses and I am shen. How did you come to be one of Jehovah’s witnesses you know like what age were you were you born in. Did you come in later. How that how that developed.

[00:03:23] So I was actually born into the Jehovah’s Witness religion. So that was just a lifestyle that I had always known so that that would be making me a third generation member. So my my grandmother met a man in the 60s and she had my dad and I and his sister with a man and they were both worldly at the time so obviously worldly meaning somebody who doesn’t serve or bowed down or get baptized by water immersion to Jehovah or more importantly the Watchtower organization and its interpretation of the Bible. But these these were just two people that met each other had children and they were just they themselves trying to grasp you know the wonders of the world and questioning death. Why do we die. What happens to our dead loved ones. Is there life after death. So to the best of my knowledge and later in my life as I’ve come to find out that that man that she had met it was just a real you know real piece of shit. Basically he he was my dad’s real dad but my real grandfather and my grandma tried to make it made to work with him. But ultimately he wanted nothing to do with her or any any of his children. So later in the 60s she separated from that man and met my step grandfather. And he was he was in the war. And they would they would get to know each other and decide ultimately through friends eventually that they met that that they were gonna become one of Jehovah’s Jehovah’s Witnesses and raise their children. My dad and his his sister in that organization.

[00:05:17] So my dad was born into it you know basically born and raised in it at 2 years old he was introduced to it from his you know his parents. And so yeah he grew up as a Jehovah’s Witness. And that’s basically how I would be later introduced to my dad you know he made it sound growing up that he was never really into it. It was just kind of a formality. My grandma my grandfather was extremely possessive and often times you know physically and emotionally abusive. And he would later become an elder and he would still have courses. That’s just kind of the process the ladder you climb. Yeah. And my my grandma my grandfather was a pretty successful person. He owned his own business and my dad would grow up to work with him. And at a certain point as my dad was getting older both him and his sister started getting you know into trouble with bad association and and he would ultimately be you know his sister before him got baptized and he she was younger than him at the time but I think she was I don’t know 18 or 19 when she got disfellowshipped for having relations with an unbeliever of Jehovah’s Witnesses and she would later get disfellowshipped for her wrongdoing or unrepentant ness and she would never return. So it’s been 30 30 year almost 30 years now that she’s been out and my dad like I said he wasn’t baptized when his sister was and he ultimately made the choice to to leave as well and kind of do his own thing and be worldly and go off and live the life that he thought he was missing out on and it just didn’t.

[00:07:18] You know like I said my dad growing up. He went and he just made it seem like it was nothing he was really really interested into. You know he was just something that he had to do. So once he was out of you know the organization he moved to theL.A. area along the coast and he just spent a couple of years outside the organization Dušan is his own thing and at which point he ended up having my daughter my half sister with a woman and they went to stay together but they would share custody of of her. And then you know a year or two after that he would he would meet my mom outside of the Joves Witness organization and she was worldly and she was she was raised Catholic. So she was raised around religion herself. And when they met each other they would talk about beliefs often. And my dad was trying to tell her exactly how he grew up in the good things about the organization and no doubt you know you can’t blame her for when she found out exactly the ins and outs of the organization and what he was raised in. She she’s like What are you doing. You have the truth. So ultimately she would convince my dad to return and start studying but. Yes. So they were both out when they met. And she. She like I said would convince him to ultimately return and for them both to study so and would take into consideration at this time. Now I keep my mom’s pregnant with me. So I think that that was maybe a determining factor.

[00:09:07] Two of them just worry about evaluating their life situation and you know trying to understand their next move. So I think down the line. Yeah yeah. And I think it is more out of pressure. You know when people get to that point in their life where they have to re-evaluate their situation because they might not be in a good place and I know my dad told me that when he was outside of the organization he got a you know he dabbled in drugs and got into trouble and obviously their lives were the best that they could be and they had to say you know sit down and talk to each other about okay what are we going to do now we’re you know pregnant withD.J me. So they would return. And then like I said my mom was baptized with me and they would go to Vegas actually in a look. So they got married and then shortly after that they got baptized. Yeah. So then. So then were you baptized while she was pregnant. I believe so yeah. I believe yes she was she was still pregnant. They both got baptized together. Maybe there’s some way you could have gone back in an older baptism somehow. Yeah I never I never considered that maybe baptized twice a double dip it was invalid. OK. Yeah. All right so then that’s really interesting I think that there are a lot of people who when they have kids start to re-evaluate things and it’s fascinating that it happens to have been your mom.

[00:10:49] That was never a witness that you know got you guys back into your dad back into it. That’s that’s a unique course. So then so you know your parents are baptized obviously you you come into the world. You know what. What did it mean to you to be a Jehovah’s Witness back then. You know what. What was the world view you were given you know even as a little kid. Well like I said it was just something I always knew was just a way of life. That was the condition. You know into me unbeknownst. So this was typical. I just thought that every family was like this and I would later come to find out that that wasn’t the case when I would start school. So growing up you know before school I remember a lot of arguments a lot of verbal abuse from both ends of my parents just because of them going through this struggle of trying to make it work with a new child in this organization. My dad was starting his own business and. And at the time my mom and dad were both fighting for full custody of my half sister. So before school I remember you know my earliest memory was 2 years old and it was just extreme extreme arguments and verbal abuse and shouting and that’s just my earliest memories of my family before school so. But when I started school you know that’s when the indoctrination really kicked in because Jehovah’s Witnesses right off the bat you know if your parents are really trying they’re going to they’re going to help you understand that you’re one of Joves witnesses in how to stand up for your beliefs.

[00:12:44] So the first day of school I mean weeks before the first day of kindergarten I remember my mom sitting down with me and going over what would be my first demonstration essentially of walking up to my kindergarten teacher and telling him in front of the class and their parents that I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and handing him you know a Jehovah’s Witness publication which I don’t exactly remember which one it was but it was probably life harder to get here by evolution or creation. So then I went straight into that I didn’t salute the flag and the reason why. And and just went into that whole mumbojumbo and standing up for my my faith. So you know my belief system right off the bat wow and you had to do that. Did you say in front of other kids and like their parents. Yeah absolutely. The orientation there’s Tom. Yeah exactly. So the first day you know all the kids are sitting around on the ground and you know you’d be introduced by the teacher and you’d stand up and say your name. And that’s when I had my little my book or whatever it was exactly I don’t I don’t remember but that’s what I would stand up and say you know I’mD.J. I’m one of Joves witnesses and you know I don’t salute the flag and you know in my mind it was just raising controversy right off the bat. Yeah it has a place for a kid that early. Right. And I remember pretty distinctively wondering why it necessarily hadn’t had to do that like that.

[00:14:23] Yeah but I didn’t really understand the ramifications of it to its fullest extent because I was so young but it did raise you know an eyebrow to me like you know why is this absolutely necessary. So it was and it was it was already a daunting enough task to stand up in front of all of those people that I didn’t know. You know that’s that that young. And right off the bat just kind of Varty chevin endowments throats like this is what to be expected from me. That’s yeah that’s you. Welcome to your life right. You mean as early as that you know. WILDER Yeah that’s right that’s right. I have to put on a kid and obviously like you said it didn’t have to be done that way that could have been done in private. That was just making a point and making a spectacle. Right. And I think looking back at it you know my mom always seemed to be that type of person where it was like all or nothing. You want to stand out and you know make a difference and stand up for your beliefs. She was a bit of an extremist and it that was just that it was just one of those things that was ingrained to me even before I started school weeks prior that we were going to sit down and make sure that everything was accordingly so that there was no hiccups and that it seemed like this was something that meant a lot to me that young when in actuality it didn’t. It was just something that was driven into my head. Wow.

[00:15:52] All right so then how did things progress you know at school or even you know like in the Keenum Hall how were how are things going back then. Well it’s so easy it’s with school the you know the introduction to each following school year would continue with the same familiar routine. Taking a stand for my beliefs in front of my new teacher first thing before each and every school year. You know while being in the public school system so this is this it became something that I would start to avoid if at all possible eventually praying that my mom would just forget to prepare me for that first day of school. And you know as a Jehovah’s Witness in school I was obligated to not only share with my school teacher that I don’t celebrate any holidays that you know obviously includes birthdays but explain to my new friends or acquaintances you know how as a Jehovah’s Witness as I was told not to call them friends so this didn’t seem to cause any issue with my teachers or schoolmates as well but I remember distinctively in the second grade that kind of changing for me. So it changed for me in the sense that I became aware that when there was holiday events or it was somebodies birthday I would be given extra work or go color in a different corner than where the activities were taking place or oftentimes being physically segregated from you know the other kids so as not to see the fun that they were having at somebodies birthday. So this is when I really started to wonder why I couldn’t be with my friends and basically having a vacation from the normal school day to you know laugh and play and eat cake.

[00:17:40] So you know as a young kid the only question I have questions that I started thinking about was why can it play with the other kids and more importantly why did they get cake and and why couldn’t I. So these these things I remember my mother trying her best to explain to me as a two year old that ultimately the reason why. Can I have cake is that it would upset God. So you know in my mind thinking back at that it’s like kids that young can’t reason know or have the concept of faith that you know I was a PEMRA. I was only projecting what was driven into my mind. I knew that it made my family happy. The yeah you know there in the Bible where it condemns cake Yeah it is so it’s so silly. So then how did things you know how are you doing. So obviously you know school is it is drama really. I mean it’s not not going to make you happy because you’re you know it’s just a place where you have to confront all of these issues that aren’t even your issue that your parents issues or issues of religion that they took on. What about. So you know you’re going to the Keenum Hall as this young person you know. What’s that like. How is that impacting you. Well I would see that you know the early stages that my parents would my parents would take us to as much meetings as possible. They were never extremely regular you know. Mind you they were in their early 20s.

[00:19:14] You know my mom had me when she was 19 years old so going through the school system I I remember my parents being the youngest people so a lot of kids thought my parents were actually my older brother sister. So going to going to meetings obviously in their 20s it was pretty inconsistent it was hit and miss. But it was almost that they you know preached do as I say not as I do. You know especially when it came to schools like you know take this huge stand for your belief. But you know we would be really hit and miss with meetings. And it really didn’t make sense. But what I realized was that the Kingdom Hall was a place where I actually could have some friends but these were by choice. Naturally they were just kind of almost arranged friendships because these were acceptable kids to associate with outside of you know anything else that you knew. So yeah. So the early days of you know being a kid in that organization that was 0 7 6 and 7 when you know my parents were already making me sit down and do the checkmarks like and yet pay attention in any form that I could like you know put a checkmark by God or Jesus or when we turn to the Bible those things if you know something to just preoccupy a child then I remember distinctively not wanting to you know essentially do that. I’d rather doodle or draw or color. And you know even at six or seven that’s not that that wasn’t acceptable.

[00:20:54] I remember being pulled out yanked by my arm outside and getting spanked because I wasn’t paying attention and apparently paying attention meant that I would have to be like I said when Jesus was announced from the stage Stager Jehovah I’d make checkmarks and that was what I was supposed to be doing not not color so I’d get it. And you know I get Spade’s I get in trouble if I wasn’t doing those things. Isn’t it amazing the the pressure that is put on kids to live up to something it’s kind of like you brought out like you know here you were having to like go to school and confront all of these things and yet your parents weren’t even a regular at the meetings you know you were taking more of a stand as a child than they were and of course your mom never even grew up in it. So she has no idea. Much like same with my parents. They grew up they didn’t grow up in it. So they had no idea what they were sending me to do every day. They had no concept of the stand I was being forced to take for them. And they I don’t know that they would have taken that stand. I don’t know if you know I mean you’d have to put them in that position. But right of course my parents were very regular and very militant. Sure. But you know it is funny just to see the the. No it’s not funny it’s sad to see the pressure put on these these young kids. So your year in the Kingdom Hall you know you’re starting to be indoctrinated really you know by just having to pay attention and you know they’re already kind of showing you you know that it’s works. You know this is a religion of works.

[00:22:45] It’s all about sitting there and making a checkmark when they say a word or something like that it’s not right. It’s not about who you are. It’s more about what you do. So then what was it you know at home you had said that before school year your parents were you know stressed out and fighting and establishing businesses and and you know getting involved in this cult that required a lot out of them. So how did that kind of progress at home. You know as you as you start getting into Year started getting a little older you know around and started going into your teenage years on hand for young adulthood. What was that progression at home like. Well you know it was it was really extremely hectic because my parents were still fighting for full custody. This was a battle that took a long time actually. And it you know on top of them trying to establish my dad my father’s business they were dealing with the court system and they’re also like you said programmed to believe that they were absolutely required to make as many of these meetings as possible be out in the field Ministry as well. This is this is something that is almost like a full time job within itself let alone raising three children because you know my parents ended up having another brother that’s five years younger than me. So now it’s me my brother and my sister living in this house. And it was my my childhood wasn’t extremely horrible by any stretch but it was just maybe it was I don’t know it but it didn’t seem like that.

[00:24:22] Yeah but there was a lot a lot of arguing verbal abuse and it was just being home was it. Oftentimes it was the best thing ever or the worst thing ever. It was never a real medium. It was just up or down and it was dependent on the mood of my parents that day. I understand I feel you there. Neira Yeah. All right. So then you know that was kind of volatile. How how were you progressed. Like were you making any progress. You know as as the years went by in the religion you know how did you you know progressed a baptism or you know what was that process like for you. Well I want to be baptized till I was about 17. So back end up going through the motions as a child my only in my mind did as much as my parents you know. Like I said it was something where it might be a Joerres when his parents can live by do as I say not as I do and my parents like I said we’re never really regular growing up. And it was something in my mind that I said well I’m only going to try as hard as you. So in meetings and stuff like that where were just formalities. For me it was just something that was required of me. So it was never anything that I really took to heart or anything that I really dove deep into wanting to understand because it was just a little too difficult for me to I understand some of the rules and regulations even at the youngest of ages.

[00:26:07] You know I don’t understand why even playing outside let alone kids from school I remember you know. You know about to be in middle school still in elementary school fifth grade having you know friends say Hey can I come over and they would come out with me to parent my parents car. You know as kids do it it just kind of sway their parents decision. And I would have my my buddy by me and I’d be like you know that can so-and-so come over and they would they would say you know my mom would say no. Not todayT.J. not today. And that was always something that was you know I did try over and over again. And you know once I would get home I would ask my mom why. So why can its own so come over. And I was just told yet again that as one of Joe’s witnesses that God did not approve of that type of association being that they were world. So I did it. I didn’t fully understand exactly what it was that made them so unworthy of my friendship. And so I was slightly confused to say the least. But after the following day or the weekend would pass after you know asking if that friend would come over. You know my my buddy would come up and ask you know why can’t I come over or if I can’t come to your house. Do you think you could come over to mine. And I knew in my you know in my mind that if my parents weren’t gonna allow a worldly person to come over to my house that there wasn’t a chance in hell that I’d be able to go to theirs.

[00:27:33] And this would affect my my relationships with kids at school because you know I would just imagine they’re there. Parents were aware of their child wanting to hang out with me or vice versa. And you know just being told me relaying that information to my buddy of why they can explain to them that they were actually his witness and that they didn’t believe me they believe the same things that my my parents did and that was unacceptable. I could just imagine them going back home and telling their parents that and how offended they must have been and probably told their kids like how about you avoid that person. Yeah it’s very arrogant. Yeah it is. And growing up I would just get to see more and more how Jehovah’s Witnesses are very entitled and they feel superior. So that was something that was starting to get ingrained into my mindset was like people just weren’t acceptable you know they were just they were just you know cogs in the world somebody that was there but not really. Absolutely. So then that you as you were growing up did you. It doesn’t sound like your parents were probably the type that they ever like auxillary pioneer or anything. Did you ever get you know drug through those processes. You know that when it happened until my mom would reach her mid 30s I think so. My dad growing up was never the spiritual head. And to this day never has one. Yeah.

[00:29:13] So he was always just somebody who was just so interesting because he was the Jehovah’s Witness before you know my mother you know growing up he knew exactly what it was that you were supposed to do to climb up the ladder. My dad you know from what he said some deep conversations that I had with him as I would start to drift away was that it was never something that he did either but he knew it as the truth. So in his mind that was good enough. And that was not the case with my mom. She always wanted him to be the spiritual head and pushing for you know family study and taking the sound field ministry. And it was it was it was like pulling teeth with my dad as much as it was for the kids to get ready for meeting or service. And my mom is always the driving force that that person that was really the one that got us going. So you know might like I said my mom my mom or dad didn’t really do anything and the truth as far as like extracurricular until my mom was in her mid mid 30s and she would start to auxillary and start going on service more and stuff like that. So then how would you have been then. Were you pushed into that as well or were you old enough to maybe not have to go along with everything. Yes so at this time you know I’ll jump to a role a little a little back again where. Yeah. So this was I don’t know. I had been 13 near 13 or so. But anyways right before I started middle school so my sister became increasingly more and more into boys you know as normal teens grow up you know girls do.

[00:30:58] And I remember on this one specific occasion. My I was just graduating like elementary school going into middle school and my parents said that I could have five of my friends within the organization go to Magic Mountain. They were going to take me to Magic Mountain. So they did a sleepover at my house. All the kids were over and the next morning my dad was coming home with you know our dog he had taken the dog to the vet the day before and he was he said that once he came back from the vet that morning he was going to pick up the dog and once he came back to drop off the dog to be OUTFRONT and ready to go so that he can just kind of pick us up. So I mean my buddies are all outside you know play and skateboarding and just doing whatever out front waiting for my dad to come home and it was like 8:00 in the morning or something like that. And as soon as he pulls up he gets the dog jumps out of the truck and then he left the truck running and we’re all still playing in the front yard. And when my dad was taking the dog inside a guy ran along the side of our house that was just waiting there jumped in my dad’s truck and virtually stole it right in front of us kids and we were like wait we thought it was a joke. I thought maybe it was a neighbor or somebody that my dad knew was just so confused.

[00:32:24] And he ends up going into the cul de sac and realizing it was a dead end and turning and hitting curbs and cars and just messing up the truck and long story short he ends up being chased by one of my neighbors and my dad in a car. And my neighbor was on a dirt bike and they ended up catching the guy and in my mind I was like oh my gosh I was so crazy. My dad’s brand new truck that he had just gotten was totaled. I was like I had my friends there and I was young enough to be like well this sucks. Like I mean it sucks for my parents that they had to do that but for me and my mind I was like well it sucks even more that now I can’t go to a magic minute with my friends and me and my dad my dad is you know cool as he was was like No absolutely not. That’s what insurance is for. Roof handled it with the cops. Yeah. And he ended up taking me to Magic Mountain with all of my friends. Lol that’s nice. Yeah. So it was cool it was a crazy start to the day to say the least. And so when we’re at magic note we’re having a great time and I remember distinctively my dad getting the phone call and he did not look happy. He just looked shocked. He was just like wow. And I was just like well you know he he pulled me sightlines is something about that track or what he’s like.

[00:33:39] We’re going to have to wrap this up soonA.J. And it was maybe like 2:00 or 3:00 in the afternoon and it was you know we still had a couple hours at the theme park in my mind. But now is being cut short but I was just happy that we were we got to go regardless. So. So on the way home I was thinking Oh the kids are gonna come back to my house and my dad’s like now we’re going to we’re going to have to drop them all off. We have something to attend to at home and where I would later find out once we got home is that as my sister was getting more and more the boys apparently while my mom was gone at work she was watching my little brother at home and she had been talking to a boy up the street. And apparently when she and my brother were there that boy that she had liked and had been talking to came over and my mom found out and they didn’t do anything. They were just you know they were young my sister was 16 at the time. And they just he came over and hung out. And my mom found out and boy was that a scene. It was yeah it was clearly evident growing up that my mom treated her different than my sister different than me and my brother and I think that she harbored harsh feelings towards my sister because she was technically not her child and that she helped fight for essentially and Bray’s this this girl was an easy process and my dad treated her differently. Might my sister as well differently but never in a way that made me or my brother Phil jealous. Like she got special treatment or anything but that. That was evident in my mind.

[00:35:18] That was my dad’s only daughter and you can tell how much she just loved her. But I think over the years my mom grew increasingly jealous of this and cannot wait for my sister you know to mess up. So once my mom found out she just lost her mind and she came into the house and was screaming at my sister throwing stuff out or hating her and calling her all kinds of names like you whore you’re gonna end up just like your mom and then that was just like it. And this was it. This wasn’t anything out of the ordinary for me. This was just another time that my mom was upset because this is how she treated us kids that young when she was upset there would be a lot of name calling. There’d be no physical abuse. And so my sister at this point had enough of it. At sixteen years old she realized because growing up to this point and this was just it. This is not how things were handled in my house. My dad was never physically abusive. He I don’t think he’s ever raised a hand to me or any of my siblings. And if he did it’s a race from my mind because it was nothing in comparison to him our mother you know handled disciplinary action. So once my my sister went through this with my mom for the last time she she was fed up and she actually ended up running away and that would be the last time that my sister would live with us.

[00:36:48] You know and I would see her for years because she ultimately went to move back in with her mom and wanted nothing to do with the organization or coming back home. Wow that’s pretty harsh. That’s that’s a hard so hard situation for you to watch. Watch your sister leave. Yeah. I mean it was hard on your parents too I’m sure. Yeah it was definitely hard on the family on multiple levels. But I know for me it was hard because my sister at the time was essentially my best friend you know we were only two years apart. And you know this was somebody I could be 100 percent myself around with my parents her other family was around to hold us to our witness beliefs and standards it was almost it almost seemed like an unspoken bond that we had of sharing mixed emotions about our faith being so young. But you know we just we’re essentially each other’s competence. So for her to just be uprooted that one day it was such an extreme day already on so many levels. And that was like the catalyst. It was just it just stood out in my mind as like it was just extreme circumstances. And it was really sad that that would be her last time you know ever coming back home or me getting home from school and her being there that was that was the end of that. Wow. Yeah that’s that’s hard hard. I’m sure it was really hard you know on her to to leave as well. You know it’s just I mean I’m sure you know in her mind in the moment it was just I’ve got to get away from crazy. Oh absolutely.

[00:38:33] But you know it’s tough. And I think she knew her options too because growing up like I said there was a lot of abuse in the family. And she she saw that my parents were having this in you know to face approach at raising their family in this organization where at home you know like on paper our family look like picture perfect you know to the hall or the organization but as soon as we’re back home you know that’s when the dragon was released. If any of us fell out of line and we didn’t do what we’re told and I think my sister knew her options at that time which was that she had you know her real mom that wasn’t a Jobs witness that was encouraging her to come live with her and get out of that environment. And she really she she took her mom up on that. And I couldn’t blame her. No. You know even to this day I I honestly to this day wished I had the you know the balls or the opportunity to do something like that myself at that age. But I I just remember thinking I wish I could have left to try. But like Good for you. Just keep running. That’s funny. You know I brought up you know for me as as a kid I can remember I always wanted to run away. I had nowhere to go to but man did I want to run away. If I I would sit there and try to make plans where could I go. You know I know where my grandparents live.

[00:40:09] I could go there but that’s not going to go over well. Yeah. And that’s a long law. It was you know like a 20 mile walk right. You know. But as a kid you know you you have no concept of some of that but I wonder how many kids there are out there that you know were born and raised Jehovah’s Witnesses where they just felt so out of control and they just they just wanted a break. They just wanted to get away to go somewhere. And I’m sure that you know those feelings are felt and shared by a lot of people. Yeah. And I think that’s a good point because I mean even at that age I remember distinctively that that’s when he would start in my mind that man I wish I could leave this. I don’t want this either. It’s causing us so much know personal pain. And I just didn’t understand why there was so much hypocrisy or double standards even at even at that age and in my mind that’s when it would start. Like there was that little seed that was planted at that point where in my mind I was like I started questioning more and more and started to do less and less of what my my mother was requiring of me. And that really started in middle school. You know I started to act differently. And you know as jobs when you’re not supposed to dress a certain way. But I was like really into skateboarding so I dressed like a skater and being told that I couldn’t wear you know a certain belt because it had studs on it or you know something as dumb as that.

[00:41:54] So I remember I’m like rolling up my belt and put it in my backpack and once I got to school I’d put it on and like and my sister would do this too. She would take clothes that she would want to wear like a you know a tube top or whatever it was in style and you know the you know the late 90s but we would essentially dress a certain way before school just a change into what we felt more comfortable in. We weren’t supposed to dress that way but I I wanted to make my friends you know I wanted to fit in essentially and I basically started to living somewhat of a double lifestyle at you know 13 13 years old and this would really be the time that I would start questioning my beliefs and justify my actions that went against my family’s beliefs and my mom would soon start to see that pattern and behavior and it was an obvious change and she thought that my dealings with the kids there were worldly. You know it was a worldly influence and it was a bit much. And she was she was right in that sense. It was I was definitely starting to change. And so I would only actually attend a year of middle school before being taken out to finish my education through an independent schooling system. So at this time my mom said like it’s just getting too much and I started becoming really independent and not wanting to do what was asked of me.

[00:43:24] And so she wanted to take me out of school and I was all for it actually because I thought to myself when she approached me with wanting to take me I thought to myself well I can’t I can’t live the lifestyle that I want in school. So it was too hard for me to be in school because you know I wanted to do certain things I wanted to hang out with certain people go to their house do go skateboarding with them. But these things weren’t allowed. I was just like well what’s the point. So yeah I wanted to get out of school because in my mind I was thinking well I’ll just get all my work done and have the rest of the day to do what interests me you know. So yeah. So I did a lot of what interests me skateboarding and a lot of our once you know I’d finish all of my school my schooling for that day. You know my mom would actually catch on to what I was doing which was I’d wake up super early get all of my work for that day. Done super early and then the minute the rest of the day I would just kind of do whatever I wanted to skateboard play video games. And I actually I at I started to actually absolutely love it. And you are live in a country. Yeah. Exactly. I felt like for once in my life I got some semblance of freedom like now. Now I have time my time and you know I and I viewed it that way because my my mom had started to go to work because my dad’s business was starting to fail. And so no one was really home to micromanage me anymore during the day and I absolutely loved it.

[00:44:57] And you know my mom eventually caught on to what I was doing and she thought I had too much free time on my hands. So she then advised me that I needed to make a schedule to go out in the ministry more so that I could quote unquote spend my time more wisely. So there goes the dream. Yes. So that was a pretty short lived. And that’s when I would actually for the first time be introduced to more activities within the organization. So I was about 14 15 when this happened. And. And so she said you know I needed to start making a weekly schedule and asked some kids that I grew up with that we’re at this point doing really well spiritually to ask them if I can go on service with them because they started pioneering and these were kids that I grew up with in the organization and they were the closest thing in my mind to the coolest kids that I knew that I could hang out with. So it wasn’t it wasn’t the end of the world for me to start going on service with them because in my mind I was like oh well we’ll hang out. And these were kids these were two brothers they were a little over a year apart and I believe one was baptized at 13 and the other one was at 14. So when I when I started hanging out with them it you know I was just like a wild there already baptized and in my mind I was like there’s no way I want to do that. And I didn’t really feel like hanging out with them all too much.

[00:46:25] But it seemed because it just seemed like they were a little too gung ho on the truth. You know when kids that are baptized that you know that young typically their parents are holier than thou and their children cannot do those things to appease their parents. And it was very evident to me that that that was the case. And you guys are the really I’m raising my hand right. Yeah. Go ahead. It’s me. That’s me. Yeah. In this wasn’t something that I faulted him for because it was weird how my mind my mindset started to change and it really started to mature as far as the way I process things and I became way more introspective when I started questioning things and looking at other people’s scenarios and not really faulting them form because they were so young that they weren’t even thinking about these things they were just going through the motions to make their parents happy and I could see right through it at the youngest of ages and that they weren’t really doing it for themselves. Even if they said they did but it was completely obvious how much praise and respect that they got from the older ones their parents and how most of the time even other kids for being driven spiritually at such a young age. But these two brothers that I had played with earlier in childhood they were at the time the most interesting kids that I could associate with in the organization. So I would start going out in the ministry with them a couple times during the week after my schooling. Just just so that my mom would stay off my case.

[00:47:59] So then how how do we get from this period of time. So you’re you know what right. You know 14 15 you Alan I think you said you were getting back you got baptized at 17. Right. So how do you go from you know the kid that is that is kind of on the outs that is perceptive enough to see that you know these other kids that got baptized super young and you know weren’t really as sincere as you know it appeared. What was the transition that got you from you know in those next couple of years to the point of being baptized. Well like I said I was home. I was being homeschooled and doing it going out in the field ministry door to door. More more and more often with these kids that were pioneering. So this was something that kind of grew on me because I really did start to enjoy their association. As far as the friendship that we started to cultivate. And it wasn’t necessarily about the truth or enjoying the film ministry that would that would kind of start to happen where I was like oh this isn’t the worst because I’m surrounded by my friends and we’re having a good time. Right. But what would really be the Catalyst’s of me pushing to get baptized. Was they had those two brothers that I mentioned. I would start to associate with into my teen years. They had a cousin and she was my age and she would come to visit all the time and meet her started to have an interest in each other.

[00:49:38] About 16 16 years old and essentially to make a long story short we would start to in so many words. Yeah. Even though we weren’t supposed to talk. And people were kind of privy to the fact that we were we’re texting and stuff like that. So once I got to the point where I I wanted to be able to date this person. She had already been baptized the kids that I was associating with are already baptized and I can see a difference. You know a mindset change in all of the kids that I started to associate with and their parents where at 16 years old you know they’re like well he should. He’s definitely old enough to get baptized. And you’re talking to my daughter but you’re not spiritually strong. So by me getting baptized it was 100 percent because I felt those the ramifications the negative ramifications of being that outskirt guy that did it and that wasn’t baptized. And more importantly I wanted to impress this girl’s parents and let them know like I’m taking this serious. Why are you telling me that some people get baptized not out of a dedication to to the Most High. But just a desire to please other people or because undue influence was you know it was put upon them or a hundred percent. You know I think I think I wonder how many kids that get baptized have any real like I don’t know. You know I guess the dedication that we were told we were supposed to have was kind of romanticized. Right.

[00:51:23] But you know I think most of us did it because we knew at a certain point we had to whether it was to please our parents or to date some boy or girl or to just fit in with our friends or not be looked down upon in the congregation. Yep. Yeah I think that was most of it is. Yeah. And I mean at that age too. You know I was when I was this age you know I was 17 when I got baptized but really I started being pushed at 16 to do it. And I just I didn’t want to I knew in my mind I didn’t want to because I knew how important it was and by important I mean important to everyone else. Yeah but it didn’t make sense to me. And at the time the truth really did it make sense to me because there is a lot of things in my mind that I just can’t get over. I was very privy to the hypocrisy with other families in the carnation. And like I said I just I saw right through. Kids getting baptized at that young of an age. And I was just like they’re not doing it for the right reasons. If I’m going to get baptized I’m going to do it on my own accord because it makes sense to me because that’s what baptism should be. Right. Right. Is your personal dedication to Jehovah. Little did I know that that dedication is actually to watch heart organization God himself. So yeah essentially I got baptized because I wanted to ultimately please my parents make them look good prove to the girl that I was talking to. That I I was serious.

[00:53:05] And her parents and everyone around me that their association would stop and dwindling with me because I wasn’t taking that stand for my faith. Yeah that’s that’s a tough period of life because you’re taking such an inauthentic step that has such huge ramifications later in life. So then how did how did this play out so you get baptized. You know you’ve got this girl. How do things start to how do things change after that. So at this time. So my. My mom my mom and dad were pretty big drinkers growing up and like I said they were they were they were young parents so they still partying a lot. They had their friends and they would go to barbecues and get all sauced up and I would see this all the time you know my parents would get in huge fights because you know someone said this and all the gossip and they’re all you know drinking and getting drunk and arguing about the dumbest things. When are you talking about women’s with these ladies. Yeah yeah. The ones that tell you how to live your life you don’t says right. Yeah. I saw this happening and like I said my parents were pretty heavy drinkers especially by witness standards. And my mom especially and now at this time in my life 16 years old 17 years old my mom had like I said went to work a couple years prior to that and she got into real estate because my dad’s business failed so they ended up getting declaring bankruptcy on that business. My dad was starting up another one.

[00:54:51] And so this was a really stressful time for my family yet again and my mom started doing real estate and she ended up actually becoming really really successful and becoming the breadwinner by far at this point in my life. And but along with that stress for her came even more and more drinking. So at the age of 16. Sixteen years old my mom was just a fool like raging alcoholic to where it was so bad that she ended up going to rehab for almost a year. And at this time I was thinking about my career choice and the friends that those two boys that you know that I was hanging out with at the time their dad had become a firefighter. So I was trying to just busy myself and get away from home as much as possible because it was super hectic. You know I’m you know getting to be 17 years old and I’m just saying that I don’t want to be home because it’s just so broken right now. My moms constantly drinking just not word. No one was in a good place at home and on a stark contrast my friends parents they were they were great people everything seemed happy happy go lucky. And I would just and you know basically force and indoctrination upon myself to busy myself so the ministry became just busy work for me but also because his dad their dad was a firefighter. I was thinking about my career choice and I was like Well he’s he’s a firefighter and he’s he’s a ministerial servant. He can do it. So I ended up with my two friends. His sons becoming a firefighter. Explorers and while my mom was in rehab that’s how I I.

[00:56:41] I just consumed my mind was going into this fire academy with these kids and it was basically like military camp. So I think in the back of my mind it was a sense of structure. It was a sense of discipline and it just kept me preoccupied. So I I did as much busy work as possible just so as not to fill the ramifications of the emotions that I was going through at that time. Got to keep busy so that you can keep distracted from everything going on. Yeah. I’m sorry to hear that about your mom. That’s that’s tough. Yeah. Now you know looking back at it it just it it didn’t surprise me with the way that my mom raised us that she would ultimately break down you know and get to such a low point where you would require intervention and ultimately like I said she was she was gone for a good portion of a year in you know outside of our town in theL.A. area going through rehab and just to find out that after I graduated from that fire academy that while she was in rehab she started smoking. And her mindset changed about the organization and she she didn’t want to come back to live like I said my mom was. I became very successful and so my parents had multiple homes and they had just built like a you know 4000 square foot home. And this was all weighing on my dad. Now who who had his own business. But it wasn’t generating that type of income that my mom was. But they were basically living off of what my mom’s savings had accumulated too.

[00:58:25] And also selling off properties to sustain that lifestyle while she was away. So this was weighing heavily on my dad. My brother was so young at the time he didn’t know what was going on and for me I just I could see right through it that you know when my mom was away her her mindset change she would she would send me letters and I would just toss them I would throw them away because I was just so upset with her. And I didn’t want to talk or I didn’t talk to her the whole time that she was gone. And yeah. And I found out through my dad that she had started smoking cigarettes and that she told my dad that she didn’t want to come back home that she was going to go live go into sober living with some people obviously weren’t Joe’s witnesses. And Ryan by far the worst association if you know you’re Joves witness to consider ex addicts living together. And so my mom getting out of rehab you know my dad was saying you know you got to come back. Yes. She she ended up being you know my dad ended up telling her like you can’t you can’t do this to our family. You have to come back and you know help raise the children and take care of responsibilities and she said she basically gave him an ultimatum saying well if we’re gonna make this work then I don’t want to move back to you know the city that we’re living in. And she wanted to live by the beach.

[00:59:53] So Margaret my mom ended up getting a place out here and where I currently live. And it’s right by the beach and it was a place that we grew up coming to nice kids and ultimately in her mind it may made her happy in this. She just needed a fresh start. So mind you I’m still living in Palmdale. My parents have this huge house and multiple properties in there. They’ve moved out here now and I’m still kind of in the fire academy and doing things out there and I didn’t really want to move. You know this was home to me. Right right. So a lot of the times I just stayed with my friends family that I was going on service with all the time because that to me was a stable environment. You know looking back at it I just I would rather be there instead of deal with all the ups and downs of what my parents were going through and ultimately they would be out here living and I would have that huge house to myself. And it was so lonely that I would just go back to my friends house you know. But after that my parents were forced to sell the home just because they ran out of savings and that would be ultimately the time that I would move out to you know towards the beach area with my parents for you know like two years or so. So I hate that I don’t want to digress too much but I have to ask. I don’t want to take the focus off of you but your mom who after so she starts doubting things right that she believed were the truth because she got away from it.

[01:01:37] His rehab which is which is something that as soon as you said that my ears perked up because that I have found over and over with people that if they can just get away from the indoctrination for some reason for my wife and I it was because we owed a bunch of money in taxes and we had to work all the time to pay off this huge debt that we owed. And so it was that time away where we were like wait a minute this doesn’t all add up. It’s like your brain can finally process this stuff you’ve been brainwashed with. So in this case it was actually an alcohol and drug rehab then that helped her to start waking up. But did she. What was her. Did she continue. Did she go back to quote the truth. Did she go back to the witnesses or did she kind of fade away. See this is where the story gets interesting is because now you know like you said I firmly believe that being my case too is when you take a step back. You’re able to think for yourself. You start to re-evaluate scenarios and doctrine and you’re able to critically think on these topics. And I think what what was happening with my mom while she was in rehab was she’s meeting people from all over with all types of belief systems and ideas and they’re testing hers.

[01:03:05] And I think what she finally felt for the first time was that certain things that she was doing were ultimately not making her happy and that could very well been the case of why she was in the place that she was in perhaps Alesso. So you know after she got out of rehab and my parents you know made amends and came together to live by the beach there would be a period of you know a little over a year where my mom was really stagnant. She was really working on her sobriety. She was you know we’re in a new hall out here by the beach and she was just she didn’t fully throw herself back in but just little tidbits and hit her Miss kind of again. But as regular as possible. But once she realized that she had to get a better grasp on her sobriety. Like most addicts they throw themselves wholeheartedly into something else. And she went straight into full time pioneering after that man. And to this day she’s been a full time pioneer for 11 years I want to say no. Which just goes to show that a lot of religious zealous zealousness zealotry a lot of it is just addiction. I mean there’s. Yeah you can be addicted to a religion or an ideology and throw yourself into that. Just like you can any substance it’s just it’s a great way to escape and Jehovah’s Witnesses have built their own entire other alternate reality to escape into some yeah absolutely. No I believe with I believe that whole heartedly that that that is the case. I mean it’s not it’s not only with Jehovah’s Witnesses that’s with anybody with an addiction. You know you quit alcohol you had to fill that that need that constant want with something else whether that’s cigarettes that’s energy drinks coffee. You know it’s one thing you replace one thing with another.

[01:05:06] Yeah then justify why it’s better than what you were doing. Yeah absolutely. Well I’m sorry to hear that the path she ended up taking. I was hoping there was there was a certain freedom story there. Yeah I wish. Yeah yeah. That poll is pretty strong though back to that you know the indoctrination. Right. And I mean they just have so much to keep you busy and so much so that you don’t have to think well. So then. All right. So then back to your story where did you go from from there. You know you’re living with the other family kind of. Yeah. And you end up moving to the beach with your family again. How do things progress from there. So from there I’m still talking to that original girl you know that my my friends had introduced me to it was their cousin and it was it wasn’t the worst thing for me to move back out here. And she helped me to understand the girl that I was talking to which we would later start to date. And this would be actually the time that we would because she would you know tell me you know maybe it’s not such a bad thing because the beach is great and I was like Yeah that is true and she lived relatively close to where I would be living. It was only maybe a 30 minute drive as opposed to an hour and a half of where she lived when I lived you know in the desert right.

[01:06:28] So when I moved when I moved to the beach it was now a shorter distance to each other. And I was just like Well okay that makes sense. And you know I was still talking to her at the time. I mean I moved in with my parents and you know started to get used to the the current geisha out here and boy was that a change. You know there is a stark contrast difference between the congregation that essentially was born and raised in four 16 years of my life. One congregation which I just came to know you know it had been had like virtually 200 publishers in it. And when we moved out to the beach it was a small carnation that had 64 alive and yes so that was a big change and getting used to the demographic. They were all older individuals. Nobody my age. And so I would try my best you know and be Riegler just as much as my parents were because I was living in their same under the same house as them. But at this time my mom started to see the closeness that I was you know start to have with this this girl and she would later start to like really try to catch me doing something wrong you know cause she knew I was I was texting her and she was always curious about what it was. And we we she would like check my phone and text messages and stuff like that. And I remember specifically this girl ended up sending me. So I guess you can say some somewhat lewd pictures and my mom found them and and she would then convince me that this girl was not somebody I needed to be talking to.

[01:08:16] That it was hurtful essentially. So I I pretty much sabotage sabotage that relationship with that girl essentially because my mom wanted me to have nothing to do with her. And it was just kind of a weird devastating point in my life. Yeah I don’t know what you do with that. Yes that’s that’s tough. You know your first relationship and so many witnessed parents end up being you know they they don’t trust their kids and they end up spying on them with key loggers on their computers or going down their phones or going through their rooms. My mom did a lot of that stuff. It’s really sad the lack of trust that’s there. So you know you’re you’re not only losing your girlfriend here but you’ve got this weird dynamic with your mom too where she’s influencing you in that way and Gorakhpur your stuff. Yeah. It was at a weird age too because you know around 17 years old I have my own job. You know at the time I was working at Target and I I absolutely hated it. But you know in my mind I was like I’m a grown I’m starting to become a grown man and have my own body. You bought a car and had a job and was doing essentially independent things yet still being very micromanaged. And the reason was because I was living under their roof and my mom said as long as you’re living under our roof you will do exactly as you’re told and you know essentially dictating how things we’re going to be to. Oh yeah the theory.

[01:10:03] So I at that point in my head at that point in time when I ended up breaking things off with this girl and I saw how how rigid my mom was on certain things but very lax on others. But this is especially with herself. I really started to think like OK well if I’m being manipulated in this organization then I’m going to start to manipulate the situation and that at that point 17 17 years old I made it like a basically a pact with myself that I was going to start looking out for me and only me and start to do things for myself that were unbeknownst to my parents to make progress to get out from underneath them and do my own thing. So I only worked at Target for a couple of months and then I got introduced to a brother in the local area and I was invited to come to a barbecue. And at that barbecue you know he got to know me where were all sitting in the spine. This this guy’s in as you know he’s maybe 31 years old and he you know we go up to his house and it was a bunch of younger kids in it little you know a little older mix as well but they were all really cool people. You know they were all into surfing and skating all the stuff that I loved him. We were hanging out and we were at his house. And it was a it was a really nice house.

[01:11:35] And I asked him what he did and he said he did pools and he asked me what I did and I said I worked at Target and that you know kind of kind of shied away from you know letting him know what I did because I I wasn’t too proud of it. You know everybody needs a job but in my mind I didn’t want that one. So he’s like well you’re going to do that forever. And I didn’t really know how to take that at first but I said No no I just I gotta I gotta make money somehow and right there on the spot he offered me a job and I took him up on the offer and so I shadowed him for about a month to learn the ins and outs of the industry and being a service tech and basically a month after that he gave me 60 accounts to manage on my own so I went from making virtually minimum wage to you know almost 4000 dollars a month at 17 years old knife. So yeah. So and that that to me. That to me was it just like I said at that age before this had all happened I had made that pact in my mind that I was going to look after myself. I was going to be independent and start making decisions for myself. And when I started making that type of money it really just went straight to my head like I just wanted to get out of my parents house as quickly as possible. So once my mom was privy to the you know the amount of money that I was making at that agent at the time. You know my parents and it need the money. But she would say you know. You’re going to you’re going to start paying rent.

[01:13:11] And in my mind I was thinking like I just started making good money. Like why can’t I just save this. I’m doing everything that you’re asking of me. And maybe that was a little selfish on my end. And you know she was telling me that it’s part of responsibility and I totally understand that. But you know I cannot go to college. I can do this or that. So I just thought Why can’t I just say the civil nest egg or something like that and apply it to my future. But Yanagida sucks to that you know the first time you start to rise above the first time you start to rise up somebody has to be you know standing there with their hand. You know Riseley your own parents to be like hey you’re finally you know you’re stuck you’re starting to get ahead in this game. Whereas mapi. Yes. It’s the I feel good. No it doesn’t and especially not in my parents case. So interiorly is because my parents were still living off of savings from my mom and that was dwindling. And I knew that. So in my mind I just thought well are they just siphoning a little off the top for me because it would help them out. Sure am I upset about that kind kinda because I realize that you know technically I’m still not of age you know and there require me to pay rent because I’m making good money. I didn’t really fully comprehend that or agree with that but I did it regardless. Sure but only for a limited amount of time before I would realize that I had to make a change to get out.

[01:14:38] And the only way that I saw that was by moving out. So I started hanging out with people more and more coming home less and less. And that’s when I would ultimately meet what would become my wife. At like a gathering with some Jehovah’s Witnesses and that’s when that’s when the story even gets more interesting is when I met this woman. I was 18 years old now and almost immediately we started talking and dating. So we dated for 6 months and then we were engaged for 6 months before we got married. So and at that time I was just making those steps to become more and more independent. And I think that the way that the witnesses outlined freedom and how you’re supposed to do as an individual is find a mate. Get married and start living your own life in this organization. And so that’s that’s essentially what I did as she she at the time was spiritual. She was an ancillary pioneering and I thought perfect this all. This is a double whammy. She’s you know she’s gorgeous and she’s very spiritual it’ll make my parents happy because obviously the girl that I was interested in before did it and that kind of drove a wedge between our relationship to the point where I had to stop because it was just too much to bear. You know and deal with. So with this girl it was perfect because you know she was adored by many Yeah. That would definitely help. In contrast to the circumstances with the other girl you know. Yeah.

[01:16:31] I’m sure she was happy that you found this this this other sister who was as you said adored by many Soden. Right. So you guys get married and. And life is happily ever after right. I wish that was the case. Yes so we ended up getting married. It was it was a really beautiful wedding actually and you know a lot of the brothers and sisters came together to help us out on a ranch of some friends of the family that a really nice home. And there ended up being like almost 400 people at our wedding. And it was it was beautiful. It was great. In the end that was the first time I had really seen the unity with in the Jehovah’s Witnesses like they really do come together and now that I come to think of it it was almost more so a reason to come together and party because there were so many elders paying years really faithful people at our wedding that you know looking back at the wedding video they were all completely sassed you know and I was very appreciative that they helped us out in so many ways with getting that you know preparing for the wedding. Right. And essentially it’s like the one and only time. Witnesses can kind of get unruly and out of hand so yes they look forward to it as much as anybody else. Yes. When you only have one thing to celebrate in life which is a wedding I mean there’s what else do witnesses celebrate. There isn’t much. So yeah yeah. So that that’s your time to show out. Right. Yeah.

[01:18:10] And so you know at the wedding I am you know I vowed to dedicate myself to this woman and I absolutely meant it. And I don’t think she fully understood and I wasn’t ready to divulge how I truly felt about things spiritually. And you know I was doing everything by the books you know as well as closely as possible and proving to people that I was a good association. I was doing my best while still maintaining a you know a full time job and more importantly wanting to provide for this woman. I wanted to give her anything that she would ever want because I that’s just what I wanted to do. I wanted to give it to somebody and. But she didn’t fully understand me and I didn’t fully understand her. Like we had basically only known each other for a year and before we decided to dedicate ourselves to each other so and we were so young and so young and naive and. But regardless you know we tried you know the our best to make it work in the first couple of years obviously for any marriage. It’s going to have its highs and lows its ups and downs but we did do our best. And you know there was there was a lot of good times that came out of trying to figure out navigate spirituality with another person. And this was the early days when I would start to just kind of throw tidbits of questions in. What do you think about this the research and this or that. My my wife at the time was somebody who was very reserved with her her beliefs like she would say well this is how I feel. That’s that.

[01:19:47] Like there’s no real sway like even if I don’t understand it it’s just what we do. And to me you know I wouldn’t really speak out about it because I don’t want to offend her or anybody to get an idea that I might be questioning things. So I really internalized everything and kept everything to myself for a good majority of the years that we were married. So yeah it was just it was it was a real interesting time to say the least. Yeah that’s it. That’s a heck of a strain on a marriage when you have this giant thing between you. Now is this religion that is is it just part of your life but is your life and is your identity. And then you know you don’t necessarily fully believe and your partner clearly fully believed. Right. She was all in so even if she didn’t understand which is the case with a lot of witnesses I think a lot of them don’t really even know what they believe. They just know that that’s what they’re supposed to believe absolutely and that was something that I had to come to terms with for myself and I could only imagine that anybody that can think introspectively or is it concerned about their own well-being would eventually come to that conclusion of starting to question things whether it’s good or bad it’s going to eventually lead to you know the process of evaluating or re-evaluating your situation. And what I what I notice even with my wife is that even you know being approached with the slightest of questioning they write it off like well we might not know this but that’s okay because we don’t have to.

[01:21:31] We do see the fundamentals and that’s good enough. And you know I might not be happy or understand it now but we will when the new scrolls come out or in the new system you know everything will be OK. And it’s like that’s not how my mind worked. And it would it would evidently become more and more you know increasingly obvious that those answers weren’t good enough for me. And so like I said I was doing Pooles at the time I was working for somebody else kind of as like a subcontractor now and. And that guy that initially gave me the job. He ended up retiring in his mid mid 30s and moving moving out of state. And he I told him when I had started working for him if there was any. Like if he decided to sell his business to give me first dibs at it. And I don’t know what I was thinking. I didn’t have the money set aside for that. Now he’s married. You know I had responsibilities and priorities. I didn’t have the savings that I could you know hey you get paid for the business or get a loan or whatever I was still really young. But when he decided to retire and move away he took into consideration how hard I worked for him. And he approached me and said that he he would sell me a portion of his business. And I said why would I would love to do that man. But I just I don’t have the funds.

[01:23:01] I’m I’m not going to get a loan like it just doesn’t make sense for me right now and he actually allowed me over time to pay it off. So what I did was I mean I cut him a check every month which was quite substantial for almost two years until I paid I paid it off. Then I owned I owned it outright. So that’s how I ended up acquiring my own business out of his he. Did you right because that could have gone out that could have gone a lot worse. Absolutely. And I still I still think him to this day you know and he really he really did me a favor because I never ended up finishing high school because at 17 years old like I said I was still doing the independent study program and going through the process of school and they kept you know I had transferred three different schools between where I used to live and to the beach and then at the beach at another school and they kept messing up on my credit. And I was making good money at that time. And I just thought to myself These people aren’t even doing their job. And this is time out of my day. I’m working full time. I’m running you know essentially a business in high school. And these people don’t know how to do their job. I’m not going to redo this work. And it was just a waste of my time. So in my mind I thought I don’t need a piece of paper to tell me who I am or who I’m going to become. And I was kind of strong headed about it but I ended up walking away and just diving into my business.

[01:24:29] And in the end it was for the better in my opinion. So I’m sure it would have been easy to be disillusioned when you’re. You seem to be doing better than the people who who are in charge of this education that are struggling to get things you know the basic things straight with your credit. Right. Yeah. It a little difficult for me to understand that you know and maybe that’s just a sign of where the school system’s at. But I saw right through it too and I just was like You know honestly this is you know in my personal opinion at a certain point high school just becomes more social and there is no social aspect of school for me at all. So I was like hey man this makes zero sense for me I just need to focus some itself. So then. So now you’re married and you’ve got this business you’ve got it paid off. And you’ve also got these doubts. So how does this end up progressing. Well the doubts started progressing more and more you know they became increasingly worse and worse over the years. But I still internalized it because I knew how my wife would act. I knew how my parents would approach it. You know I can never have a you know a debate with my father over doctrine because he himself didn’t really ever dive into it to fully understand it. It was just something he did as well. And the times that I would have you know debates are you know talks with my mom about doctrine.

[01:25:59] She was extremely vague and there was a lot that she didn’t know either and which was confusing because somebody who is a full time pioneer and she had been for some years at this time you would think that she’d be able to you know uphold the truth and its doctrine to the slightest amount of scrutiny. And that just wasn’t the case. So I kept getting the runaround and I wasn’t really expressing too much of what I was getting into with other people with my wife because I didn’t want her to worry about it. I didn’t want her to think that my fake faith was wavering in that sense. But I wanted answers I wanted clarification because I got to a point where I was like well the Bible says to make the truth your own. And I never had that opportunity. So I’m kind of doing things in reverse. I’m going back to square one. I want answers. And so after a couple of people I’ve talked to a couple of elders about certain topics my mom my mom Ben referred me to my grandfather. You know my dad’s dad who had been an elder for 30 plus years now at this time and we got into a lot of debates and some heated arguments and it wasn’t on my end it was on the end of my grandfather being upset that I came across information that didn’t coincide with the doctrine or the books or the publications that the organization produces so if anybody does any outside research that’s considered apostate research and it goes directly against the organization.

[01:27:28] And so my grandfather at a certain point said that he would have nothing to do with our discussions because of the fact that I was debating him with apostate research and we were talking about the the littlest things as far as the beginning of their religion. You know I don’t want to talk about that. No I don’t. Although I went I went all the way back to the founder you know talking about Charles Russell and getting into his life before you know all the way back into the late 80s hundreds and asking my grandfather did you know this and that and this and he’s like those things are true and I said well how do you know these and he’s like it we have all that information here. I forget the Big Green Book the Harmers book or the Yeah. One of the Insight yeah the insight book. And I read that thing back to back and I said and I highlighted things and I said it says it right here some of the things that I’m touching on. And he said Yeah they sure you know looking the best they could. But we have to. He’s like keep in keep in mind that this was the infancy of the Christian carnation and you know things have progressed and blah blah blah there’s oh it is a cop out there’s always a cop out. Yeah yeah. And it’s never it’s never an answer it’s always kind of a defense mech mechanism for you to just get exhausted about going round and round to where you just move on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s exactly what I saw with my grandfather and it got to the point where we were talking about what’s his name.

[01:29:03] Robert Rutherford Yeah yeah we’re talking about Rutherford and how you know I ask him about Beths or him. You know this was a place this is a place in San Diego where he thought it would be wise for him to own a mansion while we’re in the we’re in go into the cold war you know or the Depression the Great you had the great depression rather. And he’s live in this extravagant lifestyle in his cop out for doing that you know driving Cadillacs around and having this mansion was that this was a place that the patriarchs or princes would be able to become resurrected and come back and have a place to stay. So we have you know the leader of this organization living this lavish lifestyle off of the precious voluntary donations. I don’t even necessarily call him voluntary donations that people give to this organization to sustain its printing. Yet these these funds are being used illegitimate and for the benefit the benefit of his lifestyle. And it was just a slap in the face of people at that time where they were just people were starving you know. And and this and this is supposed to be God’s God’s. One note only mouthpiece the true organization. It just even from the infancy it was it was just so corrupt on so many levels. I can see now that it just and it makes sense how it progressed and all of the false predictions and you know my my grandfather just started shaking his head and saying that I sure had changed and I’m headed down a real scary path because you as you heard the you know what you were getting involved in.

[01:30:46] So it’s so sad that these people have devoted their entire lives and are so ego weakened and their identity is wrapped up in this thing that they don’t see and they don’t even know what it is. I learned more about the organization devoted my life to four decades and the two years after I left I ever knew when I was in it. Absolutely because you’re looking at it with a critical mind this time and it’s not necessarily that you’re looking for flaws but you’re looking for answers. Yeah. You’re looking for where things don’t absolutely make sense where you can make sense of it and we live in the age of technology it’s 2000 18. You know I think that that organization is like people that live in a town and only read that one newspaper. That’s the publication of The Watchtower Bible Tract Society is they only read those publications as fact and they never take their opportunity or the time to look at outside resources because they are told that that’s apostate literature and that’s not the case and you know the Internet is a place where it’s a cumulative mind a mass census so we’re able to determine what’sB.S. and what’s not based off of the massive Jocketty mindset. And so when you have X amount of people agreeing that this and this isn’t okay and this is correct then that’s just the facts I’m sorry but people don’t allow themselves to open their mind or to do that external research because they’re just so indoctrinated and they know how it’s going to look to others so they don’t do it.

[01:32:23] Oh yeah and they get comfortable with their beliefs you know and you don’t want anyone to question something you’re so comfortable with because it hurts now and you can’t. You can’t tolerate that pain because you you’re comfortable you don’t want to change you’ve been you know you’ve devoted so much of your life it’s sunk cost and you don’t want to change. So yeah. So you know you’re talking to your grandpa you’re you’re having these conversations that clearly aren’t going well. You’ve already been through it with your mom and dad. So where do how does this bill how does it build off this. So so backing up a little bit. So yeah basically it’s around the same time I was I was doing all of this debating with my grandfather and some of the brothers within the organization and a lot of my free time. I would ride dirt bikes like I was born and raised riding their bikes and stuff like that. And I remember going to basically a practice on the track out here in the local area and I ended up injuring my back really bad in compressing three vertebrate fracturing one in an accident. And at the time I was doing all of this you know debates with people and it wasn’t it wasn’t being argumentative and I say that in the slightest of terms as being a conversation of let’s figure this out you know and I have a question can you answer it. Well you know it has to be a debate with Brive. They’re not they can’t have a conversation. Right. There’s no end so yeah.

[01:34:03] So going through that I was going through that and once I got this back injury I had to go to the doctor they highly suggested that I did surgery. I cannot do that because I was the sole proprietor of this business and operator so I couldn’t take any time off. So I had to manage my pain. I was prescribed all of the all of these prescriptions like we’re talking Norco Soma Purkiss that you know Viken like the whole gamut because some of them didn’t work on me some did it then stopped working. And what I saw was they were you know extremely addictive and they definitely made me feel not myself. Like almost out of body kind of in a haze and not focused driven anymore than it was it was evident so at the time I was trying to make a transition where I thought like I was still going to pursue the fire career. Because owning my business I had enough free time to do more studies. So I went to OEM’s EMT school. And during this time in the program I was introduced to one of the instructors and we we got to talking about injuries and this and that pharmaceuticals because we were studying pharmacology and stuff like that. And he said he he said laughingly like oh ho ho ho why would anybody take these prescription drugs. He’s like well they just smoke a joint or something like that to that effect. And that was the first time I ever thought like really considered the use of marijuana or anything like that as a medicinal. I just always was told that it was you know the gateway drug that led you in to any other drug that you can think of.

[01:35:53] Mind you at this time I’m just dosed to the max on all of these prescription drugs. And so going to the school the schooling system you know he said that jokingly but he was kind of serious obviously so I did a lot of research and I looked into it and I realized that there was a lot of medicinal value in cannabis use. So yeah. So I mean people be people can have their view about it just like anything else. But what I saw in the greeting card Dacian was all of these elders wives elders themselves but especially the elders wives you know some of them would come to the Keenum also conked out. It was very evident that they were on prescription medication like pain meds where sometimes they when they were speaking it was you can even understand what they’re saying you know and these are the most spiritual people in the current Dacian people you should be looking up to that are on these prescription drug drugs. And it’s clearly evident. So when I decided for me you know that I wanted to try this. I didn’t tell anybody and this would go on for years. So I dropped all the pain pills and prescription pills and I would start using medicinal marijuana. And I got my my my recruit my license and all of that unbeknownst to my wife unbeknownst to my family no one knew. And I wanted to keep that way that way because I wanted to prove a point. It was yet the point that I wanted to make was it’s clearly evident that these people are using this drug these drugs these prescription drugs alcohol.

[01:37:33] I want to be under the mindset that I want to do something that helps me. And if it helps me great I’ll keep using it and it will end if it becomes evident to others then that is when you might have an issue. Right. So I started using it for years three years. In fact before I would even mention it to my wife because I eventually just felt guilty. You know my conscious just didn’t allow me to keep that from her any longer. But for three years she had no idea that I used it almost on a daily basis. I was running a very functional business that was growing each year. So there were no negative repercussions. We were very regular. And you know the ministry I was reading from the stage you know I had privileges. And once I told her that that’s what I was doing I mean I was shocked shock to her to have felt like I was keeping something from her. And I totally get that because I probably would have had the same feeling like wow that’s that’s kind of a big thing. Why wouldn’t you mention it but to me I wanted to prove something to myself first. Was it wasn’t it. If it was evident to somebody they would know and find out. And then it would be an issue. But I was able to manage it appropriately to where no one was the wiser. You know what I’m saying. Right. And like I said my conscious got the best of me and I felt like I was withholding some pretty important information from my wife to know.

[01:39:00] So once I let her know that that kind of started eating at her and she thought like oh I don’t know. I think I don’t think so and I try to show her all the research that I had found and where in the Bible doesn’t say anything about it. You know if we’re going to base our lives around the Bible then that’s it. Read the good book and see where it says not to. Go ahead. So you know and there’s a scripture in the Bible that said God gave every seed bearing fruit to mankind to enjoy it. So that’s how I justified it. Which was well you know if we’re gonna take the Bible literally this is how I literally perceive it. And I didn’t really care how anybody else did and nor was I you know asking anybody at that point. But my my wife ended up started feeling real guilty that I was hiding this from the conversation and I had privileges and she essentially wanted to go to the elders about two things at this time. She thought that we were we were like grieving God’s Holy Spirit we were lacking God’s Holy Spirit because at this time we started having more and more arguments at just about finances just life itself. It was very evident that you know with the relationship we have ups and downs but her mindset was when we have our downs that’s because we’re spiritually weak. We need to go talk to the brothers. Oh yeah yeah. So she used number one my marijuana usage as a catalyst.

[01:40:23] And number two there was a little bit of fooling around that we had done before we got married and she thought that we were grieving God’s Holy Spirit because we were keeping them from the Christian creation and the brothers. So not only did we get drug in to a judicial committee for what both me and my wife at the time had done prior to us getting married. But also the fact that I was using marijuana so it was just compounded so it wasn’t a good time to do both at once. But in my mind I was like well let’s knock it out of the park and I’m I’m not going to just bow down and say I’m going to stop but I’m going to try to prove a case. So we got our you know at this time we got privately reproves for what we had done prior to us getting married. But in that meeting we also mentioned the marijuana use and it wasn’t really that big of a deal. You know they really didn’t really touch on it. They shared a couple of scriptures and it was very vague and we left thinking like we left there thinking like well they didn’t touch on it too much and my wife was like yeah you know. But I still think that you should stop. So I did that for almost a year which was I just I stopped using it. And I was like well let’s see if things get better and with my with my pain it only got worse. It was basically the reason my used it was to go to sleep and stop tossing and turning. Get some good night’s sleep.

[01:41:59] And what I realized was like my health was starting to suffer suffer because I was only getting four hours of sleep every night. And so I started using again I told my wife after that time of not using it. I said I tried you know I tried to do prescription pills. I tried to stop and I found the best results while doing this. And you have to understand that it just works for me. You know something might work for me but maybe not for others. And I said the way that I look at it these chemical pills that are drive by man are way more harmful than something that’s natural. And they can still be managed appropriately. So once I kind of got on board with that she was OK with it. And that was pretty much it. And then the brother we got called back in to a meeting for the marijuana use. And this was because I still had privileges and at the time you still have privileges even though you run against the primary proof wouldn’t take those away. Yeah you’re right. Yeah I mean I guess that can differ from some some halls. But you know I was still saying there might have been a slight period of time where we didn’t have our commenting by Natomas. Yeah. After. I don’t know maybe five months it almost went back to normal like nothing had happened. Yeah. So you know I was reading the Watchtower saying prayer and stuff like that and helping with my ex and stuff like that. But after we went back to the brothers about them I want to use this is the original Hall that my parents moved us to when we came to the beach.

[01:43:41] So now it’s my family in that hall and me and my new wife in this hall. And we’re dealing with that committee about this marijuana use and virtually at the end of the day they’re like OK well there there are some people that do use it for medicinal purposes. Do not tell anyone about it. And you know everything was fine everything was fine. We left that meeting. They were under the assumption that I would be using it still it wasn’t an issue if I didn’t make it one. And I was happy I was I was ecstatic because it really truly did help me. And I felt like wow. I took a stand for something and you know it’s all working out. Then we start to associate with more friends in another congregation in the same town and they kind of sway us because we we were we were thinking about moving and this is when the circuit overseer came and said If you live here and you live in this this territory and your hall falls in this area you need to go to that hall. So he was basically driving and everybody said like if you live on the other side of town and you’re going to another hall on the other side of town that it’s not okay you need to go to the hall that is within your territory. Right. So we ended up moving to a different area down by the beach.

[01:45:00] We got a house down by the beach and now we were in that territory where all of our friends that we were making were they were our age because like I said that hall that we were in it was a bunch of old people nobody really to associate with. So we moved we moved halls and now I start to double down on my spirituality because things are on the up and up. The business is good. We got a house down by the beach. It was like literally five homes from the sand. And I’m like OK I got free time I start going to service more. We know we’re at this new home trying to you know make an impression and at a certain point that’s all it was. Now that I think about it about making advancements spiritually for me was always an image thing and how generalizations are based on image. Yeah and how people people perceive you you know and it’s often face value in a person. And so you know I was mean on the up and up. We were going to service more and just a couple of months into being at that new hall we decide to around Memorial season pioneer early Godzilla pioneer. And so we’re doing that and it took almost seven months for them to transfer my cards. Mine and my wife’s cards. Like a little less under two miles from one current geishas to the other. Yeah. And so when the cards finally came in there was a note on there of my marijuana use. Oh yeah. So I’m outside. We’re outside after meeting for field service and we’re out in front of the hall just kinda talking to some other friends making arrangements to the two of the others approach me and say you know they pull me aside and they want to talk to me.

[01:46:48] So my wife kind of looks at me funny and like I look at her like I don’t know what we’ll see. And so they pull me aside and they say you knowD.J. so we we got your cards in. That’s a good thing. And I was like wow yeah it is. That took a while. Like yeah we apologize for that. But what we did find when those cards were transferred is that it mentioned something about marijuana use and they said they didn’t ask me. They just said so you’re not doing that anymore. Right. They just assumed that I would have found my way to the right decision in their mind which was not to use it. Right. And I said No I’m still using it like it’s I made it evidently clear in the last you know I had a judicial committee about it and made it very clear in the last carnation that this would be an ongoing thing and everything was fine. And the brother specifically said not in my home. And I remember I remember that being the first thing the first moment from then on forward where I would start to throttle back on my spirituality because I was just you know I don’t get offended at all. It’s it’s it’s virtually impossible to offend me. I don’t even know how to put this or what words would be best fitting but I just couldn’t believe what had come out of this.

[01:48:11] Elders you know Malph because he was the Kobie of the carnation the presiding overseer basically the head honcho in charge and what I saw was these brothers perceive it to be in their hall. You know they’re there the managers of it. They’re the rucking you know they’re the boss hog. And I saw right through what he had said and it just did not sit well with me. And it wasn’t. Let’s get together and talk about it. It was not in my home which was clearly evident. He did not want to talk about it because he had a certain stance on it and he was not willing to waver or debate about it. So after that I told my wife what was going on. And she’s like don’t let it get you down like just only you and Jehovah know what works best for you and if it doesn’t bother you it doesn’t. You know it obviously doesn’t bother me anymore. Just do your thing and that would like I said be really the first thing where I would actively start throttling back on my my spirituality. So that was a big issue that I first started to have. So after that you know I stopped I stopped I mean I still was going to meetings regularly. Don’t get me wrong. It was just. Well I’m not going to do the extracurricular things I’m going to focus on my business. I’m gonna make all my meetings but I’m not going to I’m not going to be searching for any privileges. And I’m also not going to be going out in service more than I asked you to say quote unquote regular.

[01:49:39] So from that point it was just my head down my tail between my legs and I was just doing it as a formality to keep my wife happy and my parents. So yeah sounds like they didn’t offend you they just kind of took the wind out of your sails. Yeah. This kind of motivated you. Yeah because I couldn’t really fully understand how somebody can be so arrogant about such a touchy topic and not want to discuss it and just assume that they know better than they did. They proved that it was merely authoritarian. That’s what it was about. It was absolutely. Here you go. I’m the voice of authority. And I just told you no. And now you’re going to fall in line. Right. And I would definitely like to see. And you know I would see their point of view if there was an evident change in my personality my lifestyle. Sure. My this or that. And that was you know I hid it from everyone for years. So that was clearly evident that it wasn’t an issue. Oh but no one knows. Yeah yeah exactly. And if and if Jehovah knew then why was life going according to plan in my mind. Yes so that was that like I said you know. And from that point on I just kind of stuck to myself and did just the bare minimum to keep you know quote unquote regular and then I really had an issue like I started to have an issue with well what else is a gray area. Because I wanted to have facial hair for the longest time and I never really questioned or debated that as well.

[01:51:12] And I’m totally not the type of person that would do something out of spite of attention or wanting that type of attention. You know what I’m saying. Yeah. Yeah. But now we’re getting to the point where I was starting to miss more and more meetings. And me and my wife were getting along as well because of my perception of what the organization started to become in my mind. So I told her like I just don’t think it’s absolutely necessary that I need to go out in service every weekend or X amount of hours or do extracurricular things. And it started driving a wedge in our relationship at that time. So for me I was just like you know whatever I started growing a little bit of scruff. And I’ve always had really sensitive skin too. But that was 100 percent not the reason why I wanted to grow a beard it’s just for the longest time I always wished I could I just never understood why we couldn’t so because I don’t have another. Right. Right. So because I started going less and less to the hall. You know I started to grow this scruff and you know I come to what we come from work with scruff on my face in work clothes and I get those comments like you know brother scratching my chin like what’s this. It’s like I look down and I’m clearly in my work clothes. And that’s how it started and once I saw how much of a issue was was just like I don’t care I just started growing a beard and this included me just going to meetings with.

[01:52:45] It wasn’t a full full on beer like it is now but it was evident that it was a well. Well trimmed you know and kept the beard and that was an issue. And you know I got pulled aside and say well this this and this can’t happen for you knows that we’re doing that. And I said Well I’m not really reaching out to do those things so it doesn’t really apply to me. Don’t you think. And so I started to get a little bit more sarcastic with the brothers because I didn’t. I started to lose respect for them and the the way that they would approach things like you should know better or I know better. And that’s just that. And that’s not a bad right. You know settle well with me. So getting further along in my I guess my spiritual digression was me eventually I’m going to less and less meetings and telling my wife like there’s just some things. You know I started studying doctrine and mind you I hadn’t started doing any outside research really for that. Other than like you know finding more information about Russell or Rutherford that was about it. That was the gist of what outside resources that I would do on Google. Right. And I still didn’t touch any other information outside I really don’t. Into more of a doctrine. So when my wife would go to meetings I would stay at home in my office and get some work done. And while she was still gone instead of just watching TV which we didn’t have TV the whole time we were married.

[01:54:21] I would just stay in my office and do research within the organizations publications I get old publications from you know that they stopped printing and wanted to fade out because they were some misguided doctrine and they were trying to make sure that the public didn’t see what had been written before and stuff like that. And I was really diving in to what they had produced what they had published and things were just starting to fall apart for me within their own writings. Oh yeah. And that’s how it all started for me to eventually cease all meeting attendance service everything and you know really start growing a little bit of a longer beard. And I saw an immediate drop off with people stopping stopping associating with me. My parents started acting differently towards me. And especially my wife. That was the hardest part was we had multiple conversations about our spirituality and I’m not the man that she had met and I said I apologize about that. You’re absolutely right. You know there’s a lot of things that I was doubting even from the beginning that I should have been upfront and honest with you. But it was just too say this is too sensitive of a subject back then and you know it was just a lot to deal with. But now that I’m a little bit more established I have free time I get to dedicate that free time. However I see fit and I wanted answers and the answers that we’re finding were not sufficient enough for me to dedicate my time or devotion to this organization any longer. To the extent that they want and she lost a lot she lost all if not most all respect for me.

[01:56:06] Once I took that Stampfer just saying I doubt a lot of things I’m not going to meetings anymore with you. She would hold over my head like I stopped doing family study with her and she was like this at the very least that you can do with me and I said you know what if there’s one thing that the organization has taught me as it says to make the truth your own. And I said you should be doing that yourself because I’m doing that. And this is the resolve that I’m finding and it’s not that I don’t support you in what you want and what you would like to be doing but you should see my side of it and do the same for me which is I’m not pushing you down the path that I’m going in nor should you be doing the same to me. And at the end of the day this has no they should have no factor bearing on our relationship. This should be our own personal resolve with our spirituality. But that’s what the relationship is built on when you want to Jehovah’s Witnesses. Yeah. It’s one of the main chords very seriously. And that that that to me was the most devastating part was it was how the organization drives in two married couples lives that Jehovah comes first. And and at the end of the day if that’s what you believe in and you need that you know that driving force to make things make sense to you by all means. But at a certain point I realized that that is absolutely not the truth. Your family comes first.

[01:57:31] And most importantly your mate so in my mind I just thought well she’s not going to be accepting of how I view this religion and my mindset and my stance that I’m taking. So I’m going to go full force into my business. And that’s exactly what I did. I wanted to provide for her more and more. And like show her like look I’m not falling apart just because I have a difference of beliefs. If anything we’re become better and it wasn’t a more open meaning to be a materialistic thing but it was letting her know that you know I’m not falling apart you know I’m driven. I have a mindset and I wanted to prove that to her. Well yeah actually you know what you had said before too in addition to that was that she saw that when things weren’t going well for you guys she saw that as a lack of Holy Spirit. You know if you dive into your business and your business is doing well there’s Jehovah blessing you now. Right. You know it’s funny that you say that because that’s exactly how I perceived it which was if I was being if I was grieving God’s Holy Spirit and I was acting directly against what he commands us then why why why is it within the year the first year of me stop stop going to or attending meetings rather My business grew 50 percent in one year. So this was something that was clearly evident that was not the case because I always lived my life with the assumption that if I’m not doing exactly what I’m told things will just fall apart.

[01:59:07] And that’s not the case what the case was is when you actually use your mind and dedicate yourself to something and you have that driving force and you stick to it. It will always work out you know the better. And people can’t get people in the organization can’t understand that they just they throw caution to the wind and they throw up their hands and say well I’m going to let Jehovah take care of me. And they pray. You know it’s just hop out it is it is and it’s it’s OK it’s just stopped making sense for me. And I wanted to prove that to my wife you know. You know without words which is like well look tell me that I’m doing wrong. Right. And it still was never good enough for her. She you know she just wanted a spiritual head. And I get that and I can’t fault her for something like that because if she if that’s something that she ultimately thought I was then that was my fault. But what I can not get over was the fact that it was the determining factor or the make or break for our relationship because it got to the point where she just didn’t respect me at all. She would say disparaging comments to me about it to other people embarrassing things that were private. And yet. Yeah. And I think in her mind she justified it because she wanted to make me look bad to others even though even if others looking outside in would see that that wasn’t the case I was doing just fine not going but she would throw these little tidbits in to make me look kind of bad in a certain way.

[02:00:44] And you know I think she just did that out of a defense mechanism for her own sanity. But at the end of the day you know it wasn’t fair and you know it got to the point with our relationship where we stopped having any intimate relations with each other. And and it was because she just I can tell that she just never was into it anymore. And I after after about a year and a half of you know very hit and miss intimacy huge gaps in between you start to really question why am i even with this person. And that’s that’s when things started to really fall apart for our our relationship is she. She dove more into it and I drove more out of it. Yeah. And I think it was a bit of stubbornness on both of our parts. And so when she would dove more into it I dove more out of it. We were almost living separate lives at this point because she was just so dated with spiritual things. And I was initiated with you know pursuing other business opportunities and my business that are already in preexisting business and household projects like we were on completely different schedules. We would virtually just eat together. And it got to the point where we just barely saw each other so. And now we’re to the point where I’m questioning like why are we even together like if we could have made this work. You know I’m trying over and over like this.

[02:02:23] I’ll accept you for who you are just accept me for who I am and it just wasn’t ever good enough and I remember distinctively that what was it I think 2000 in 15 I was sitting at a bar waiting for one of my other friends to show up in this friend was a lifelong childhood friend. And he was he was born and raised in the new organization too. But he he started to have doubts like me too. So we would kind of have our own little secret meetings and just yeah and we would we would just talk about doctrine and this or that. What did you hear on this podcast and by and he was kind of like my outlet you know. Yeah. Which was somebody who I can share a mindset with of understanding of how the faith system works. This organization and the doubts that you could possibly have in why you can justify those things. So as I’m waiting for him to come have a beer with me. It was at a local bar in my my neighborhood I’m sitting there waiting for him and I get approached by this woman and she said Do you have a couple of minutes. I’d like to interview for something. And I said I mean what is it. I was kind of weird I was like What is this in regards to you. And she’s like well and she sits down and she has an iPod and she’s like I worked for you know like a commercial agency or this or that. And it only take three minutes of your time and in my mind I was like yeah whatever lady like whatever. But I was just too nice and I was just like sure whatever let’s do this.

[02:04:02] So she asked me all these questions and Bombon at the end she’s like I’m I know that you might think of it this is weird but I’m literally a talent scout. And I think that you would fit this role that we’re looking for. And I was just like OK like whatever so I give her my e-mail address I don’t think much of it. And you know two weeks later I get an e-mail saying that that she passed along that footage because she had a guy with a camera and passed along my footage of the interview to one of her superiors and that they would like me to come to a casting call. So unlike I went from sitting on a bar getting interviewed by this lady thinking she was crazy to and possibly being in some light commercial or something and I’m thinking well this is cool like that. I’m thinking like well why not. Like I have the extra free time you know while my wife still her thing like Why not try to see where this goes. And I remember getting an e-mail and I ended up eventually going to that casting call and it was for a Chevy commercial. And we do basically I get selected we do the shoe and then they air it nationally. And I was so stoked on it because I was just like this is so cool this is so Raddy was so random. I was excited for it and I was like telling my wife about it and she she just wasn’t having it like you could tell that she was just faking the funk. Yeah that’s that’s cool like. Because I was already going down a path that was making me more happy. Yeah.

[02:05:41] Like one thing after the other would be happening where these were opportunities that if I was grieving God’s Holy Spirit then why was everything being handed to me. Because it was just drawn in here. And that exactly and that’s and that’s exactly how my parents and her perceived it which was you know this is how it happens this is what you’re doing and blah blah blah. And so after after her not being like supportive of it I remember just being really bummed like man this was a cool opportunity for me and I was just really stoked on it and I would have hoped that you would have been at least somewhat excited you know with me and I wasn’t getting that from her. And so after that we are. Our relationship is just starting to go further further downhill and you know we’re living more and more separate lives and I ended up needing another girl through. Mind you this is another Jehovah’s Witness through a buddy who was another jobs witness as well down south. And I would go hang out with this buddy every now and then because it was just kind of an outlet like if I wanted to get away while you know my wife was with her super spiritual family in another town I would just go down south and hang out the beach with a buddy that I knew from down there. He was also a witness. I met you know one of his friends which was another sister in the organization. And then we started having more and more contact with each other.

[02:07:18] And at first it just started out with you know just random you know social media like laughing sending stuff and then it turned into more of a conversation. And I got I started getting to know this person and I looking back on it I think I was just trying to fill the void that I didn’t have any more with my wife where I was just like Yeah this this happened this was cool and you know I’m looking forward to doing this and that and you know just just random stuff. And then over time you know we started to develop I guess more and more of a relationship and I stopped and I thought to myself well this isn’t this isn’t right. Obviously like there was a real turning point where it turned into wow this person just kind of like filling my void of conversation that I don’t have with another woman which would have been my wife. And now this other girls giving me this attention and really interested in what I’m saying and vice versa. We’re in where we have a lot in common. Yeah. And then somewhere in between it turns you know somewhat romantic to where she’s wanting to like hang out and stuff like that I might not like that. This is not going to happen baba. And for a while I just wrote it off like there’s no way like I’m just go hang out with her. But mind you this is at a time in my relationship where me and my wife are virtually not talking. We were we were roommates at best. I was sleeping in my office for three months before it got to this point with this other lady.

[02:09:02] And it got to the point where I sat down my wife and I told her listen our intimacy has to change your view of where my spirituality has to change and you just have to understand that that’s just not where I want to be. But that does that should not affect our relationship together I want to make this work. This and that and she would she would say that she wanted to but she would never take the necessary actions to change. And I got to a point in my mind where I was just like I I can’t do this anymore you know. And I decided too that I was going to leave. I was going to leave her and then I wasn’t even necessarily thinking about this other girl that I was talking. I just was like well how am I going to do this. You know jobs when they’re told like once you’re married. The only way that you can remarry is if there is infidelity. And I thought well I was so upset with the organization at this point because of all of the judicial meetings and the vague understandings and there are vague answers rather in the way that my wife was starting to treat me because of my lack of spirituality not my lack of taking care of her. I was really upset how it just threw my life into a downward spiral mentally. And so I was just like well if if that’s how they want to play the game then that’s Harmon go out and so with this girl that I had been talking to. We ended up sleeping together and started a relationship.

[02:10:38] And I know my wife ended up finding out it told her what had been happening and she wanted to make it work. And mind you this relationship with this girl wasn’t even to the extent where I was just like oh I’m going to be with this girl for the rest of my life. It was the conversation had gotten to the point where me and her were under the understanding that we didn’t want to be Jehovah’s Witnesses anymore. And that’s a really weird place to be with somebody who is a Jehovah’s witness in the organization and you’re speaking to another one with kind of the same mindset of how can we get out of this. And I told her Well if I if I sleep with another person that in my mind was me doing my wife a favorite because number one it got me out immediately. It was just like the nail in the coffin and it allowed her squirt scriptural freedom to remarry. Yeah because a lot of people don’t start with jobs when he says that is the only way that scripturally a spouse can remarry and live another life with a happy life in that social construct or religion or that organization of they can never have another relationship for the rest of their lives. Right. You have a sexual relationship with someone else and it is admitted if you can get that if you keep that on the down low for the rest of your life and no one ever knows that your wife would have been stuck for eternity. Well yeah. However long life is you know not being able to ever marry again simply because of that. Yeah.

[02:12:17] And this was something that was not just a heat of the moment like passionate no idea or action. This was very very very methodical on my part. Now we’re talking about two years of a period where I tried everything that I could do with making it work with my wife maybe not spiritually but everything else under the sun. And just because of the sheer fact that I wasn’t the spiritual head that she wanted my whole my whole life went in a downward spiral as far as our relationship is concerned and I added get to the point where I was like well why are we together. I have different pursuits and goals and aspirations and so do you. And I got to this place that like I said it was very methodical on my part I thought well I’m not going to go through the process of separation or the divorce. And then having to one day call up her or my wife and say yep I had sex with somebody. Now you’re free like I couldn’t imagine doing that to her. So I thought I would rip off the bandaid and just get it done with. And that’s exactly what I did with that girl. That was that right. Yes. And so that you know me and my wife were married for seven years. Two of them two of the last year were really really hard to where I ultimately come to that decision. And what got interesting was it wasn’t what you wanted either. Absolutely not. No. I would have I don’t think people understand exactly what I was thinking because they never had the opportunity to have that conversation with me.

[02:13:51] It was when I got this fellowship with jobs when as soon as you’re disfellowshipped everybody has to write you off. You were shunned. They don’t talk to you. They don’t know your side of the story and what had happened. Because behind closed doors they didn’t know the in and out of my relationship with my wife. They just sawD.J. that it go to a meeting and he’s the reason but they don’t care about the truth they just care about appearances. Absolutely. And I was done with living that lifestyle which was I never felt myself when I looked in the mirror. I pictured somebody else and I was never that person. And it wasn’t that I made such drastic changes were completely changed and I wasn’t the same person. There was just little changes that I needed to do to make me happy. And that did not include getting more spiritual. So that meant getting more closer to my wife. That meant furthering our careers and getting to a happier medium that we didn’t have to be on the same page necessarily as far as spirituality was concerned in my mind because if that makes you happy go do it and I try to say that to her so many times like I don’t fault you for your belief systems. I will never judge you for it.

[02:14:57] But then it got to the point where she’s like Well I’m not going to I’m not going to raise you know if we have children I’m going to raise them in a divided household where you know their dad is in a Jehovah’s Witness and this or that was like in my mind I my I had to deal with the hand that was given me you know. And that’s the way I had to go out was obviously this relationship’s not working. I don’t want to be Jehovah’s Witness anymore. And I would have rather lived under a freeway overpass and go back. And that’s how strongly I felt was I could lose everything that I worked so hard for. And I would still be fine with the free mindset and independent thinking and the ability to have that independent thinking outside that organization and not the ties of a strained relationship anymore because it was just so mentally exhausting. Yeah. Once you’re done with that like there’s just no other way to be than just absolutely done like right. You will do anything to get away from it whatever the consequences are fine like you said if you have to go live under a bridge or whatever it just is what it is. And there is no choice. Once you know that that’s not what you want in your life it’s not like it’s something where you can you know kind of be I don’t know if kind of an all in thing. It’s very difficult to not. There are a lot of people out there and I’m sure maybe who were even listening to this who are physically in but mentally out you know most the album. All right. You know I think that if that’s if that’s what you want to do and you can do that like that takes a great deal of strength on its on its own front. You know it’s very difficult to live that right.

[02:16:52] And obviously some people can do it or choose to do it for family or whatever. And you know that’s awesome. If they can do it. But some people aren’t wired that way. There’s just no way. I don’t think there’s anything you know just for my personality type that could have kept me once I knew better. I just I had to be out but I’m just kind of an all or nothing person in certain ways you know. And we all have different personalities. So yeah I agree on the same type of person all or nothing and I think that that’s that might be something that people that have enough you know finding out from other people you know when I was out I didn’t know anybody. You know I was essentially a babe to the world and I didn’t have any friends. You know we’re not allowed to associate with quote unquote worldly people those that weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses so I’m in I’m somebody now 26 years old has no friends or ideas of just how to function without that social construct because it’s all uprooted from you. So there is a good portion of a year where I got I was just heavily drinking you know because this is ultimately not what I wanted. I wanted my family. I wanted the things that I still had. Minus that scriptural you know mindset or that perception of religion. And it really did a devastating factor on my mind. But what I found was through talking to other people that I had to. I started meeting was how much courage it actually takes to do what you ultimately have to do to be happy.

[02:18:28] And I think that that’s that’s one thing that witnesses that end up ultimately just throwing up their hands saying I’m done. I’m out. It takes an extreme amount of courage and you do and you definitely have to be an all or nothing person to jump ship. You know you do. You know it takes a lot of effort to jump from you know a ship that’s already sailing to jump into the freezing water to swim back to shore to build a boat just to get back out in the water again. It takes a lot more effort than just to ride that ship. Oh yeah absolutely it takes it takes a lot of effort to do that and then you know I know for myself I was just very fortunate that my wife came along and jumped off the ship with me just right. You know things just worked that way. But it’s it’s still like it doesn’t matter. Like that’s how it’s like one of the ways you know it’s called when there is literally no easy way to leave right. You know it doesn’t matter if you if your spouse leaves with you if your spouse stays behind. If your if you have children who stay behind like or if you stay in physically but mentally you’re out like there’s just no real way. To leave the cold without it negatively impacting you in a very harsh way. Well absolutely. And that’s where that’s where it gets interesting too is that I had never been to scholarship before. You know I had only been privately reproves so I had never really understood the negative ramifications of being disfellowshipped.

[02:20:06] Now while I was still in the organization disfellowshipping was something that I always just did it really comprehend. But I think as a jobs witness we just put it to the back of our minds and think this is just what has to be done and you just write it off but once you’re actually disfellowshipped you get to understand exactly how mental mentally manipulating it is to shun somebody to where it’s almost built by design that the organization wants you to fail. And they’ll say up and down that they swear that that is not what they intend. But when you rip somebody’s social structure their friends and family the only things that they are able to know because of the rigid rules and regulations. Once all of those things are gone and you are tossed into this big vast world you can easily get lost. And like I said a year after we filed for divorce and I was I got a place on my own. I didn’t know anybody. What was I supposed to do after I was done working. All I did was drink because I numbed myself from all of the emotions that I was going through. And I had no outlet. As far as the social structure was concerned to talk to anybody. So I was just you know I’m my own worst enemy in my own head. And they you know they want you to fail and come crawling back.

[02:21:26] And I had it at a certain point make a re-evaluation of my circumstances and say I have to better myself for myself and prove everybody wrong and then make an example for other people that are considering it saying his life didn’t turn to shambles you know it turned into Jim’s. And I think more people have to have that mindset because the organization wants you to come groveling back and crawling on your knees and being battered so that you can understand what a loving organization is and they’re always going to be there with their arms wide open. But they don’t understand how negatively it affects one’s mental cognitive functions. Sure. The best revenge is a life well lived. So right. You know go out live a good life and show them that they’re wrong. I mean if that’s all you can do and I mean absolutely. You know this is the only life that we know we have as human beings. You know whatever a person believes other than that that’s fine. But you know the only thing that we can literally prove that we have is this life. And every every day that we get as a gift. And so you know what else is there to do but to make it the best you can. Why why would you choose to do anything else. So yeah so go have you know you have to go have a good life and and hopefully you know sometimes that that is a good example for others who who want to leave to you know way. You know I watched this personally even and their life didn’t fall apart. Well maybe there is something to this maybe there is something to leave in this organization. Right. And I think we’re definitely headed down that path.

[02:23:07] I think there’s a trend that’s happening where more people more and more people are leaving in their understanding that they have to get you know for the longest time the society didn’t necessarily say like don’t go seek professional help as far as therapy was concerned but pretty much so in so many words. Did you say that you know to avoid that thing because now being outside the organization I think it’s becoming more and more of a trend with people that have left that they understand that it can be so mentally devastating that they do have to bandage those wounds before that they can continue. Whether that’s joining a community of abuse or getting a hobby something to better themselves and not to mull over the past because it can be so destructive. And if you don’t treat it that way and that’s something that I had at you know spend some time learning and being out. But once you find a good source of people to surround yourself with that you know understand what it could have been like to be raised and are open to religious conversations. It does wonders for your mind. And that’s that’s all I can say for anybody who might be considering it inside their religion because I know there’s three stages for me. When I was inside doubting on the fence and then outside there all three different perspectives. And if you have the opportunity to go through those you really do have to you know possibly seek professional help or you get a group of people that are supportive and not just do it on your own. Yeah. You’re not going to be able to do it successfully all alone. It’s too it’s too big. Absolutely.

[02:24:52] It’s just too big. Yeah. So then. So you’ve been out now for what a couple of years. So approaching two years. OK. Ann’s have you. So then you know you know just because you’re disfellowshipped although shunning is the policy of Jehovah’s Witnesses at times not everyone’s family lives up to that policies. Have you ever heard from your family again or is that it. You know it’s funny that you mention that you know because it’s you know is taking care of some taxes it’s tax season over here and I was filling out this form. And I remember the last real conversation I had with my mother was right before I was announced. And she helped me with a tax form. And as you know that is such a weird thing to think about is the last conversation that you had with your parents. Like a real conversation was about you know business or finances not like how are you doing. You know the family see you. Yeah yeah. It’s just some business formalities that she was eating me with. And you know there has been times where I’ve seen them at family functions. But what such a trip and I do not understand this and I don’t think I ever will is that because me and my wife are no longer together. They still treat her as family. So if I’m going to a world family function like my mom’s grandparents like anniversary for instance which happened a couple months back. They showed up with another witness family that’s not related to our worldly family. And they brought my my ex-wife.

[02:26:42] So they are going on vacation with her. They’re traveling with her they’re bring her to family functions that normally we would have went together with but we’re not together anymore. And they’re treating her as like a replacement. And I don’t understand that. I think that I think that they feel I’ve seen this before. I think that they feel guilt that is that they didn’t do something right in raising you that made you the faithful witness husband that she should have had. And I think that they are trying to atone for it by essentially adopting her as your replacement. If it is so fucked up. It really is. It is. It’s so strange. I’ve seen it before. It’s really weird. It’s so weird that when worldly people I mean who’s going to use the world world just like because now that I’m outside everybody who I associated associate with outside the organization is quote unquote worldly to people inside the organization. But when I mention that and they see it and I show them pictures they’re just like what the hell are you that is so it doesn’t even make sense on so many levels that it’s just even weird to somebody who doesn’t really understand that you know if one is disfellowshipped and the spouse stays in that they can still maintain some relationship with the person. But they literally replaced me with her and she does absolutely everything with them still as if I had died. Well there you go.

[02:28:15] So witnesses believe that essentially your parents believe that you will die at Armageddon and they will lay on into this panda paradise and they think that I have literally seen people write this on line of experiences or heard it where their parents are pretty much of the mindset that well so you know job in the Bible he had all these kids and and God allowed Satan to destroy his children. But hey God gave Joe a whole nother bunch of children in later life. So okay so it’s ok. I mean sure he he lost Johnny and Suzy but he Yeend Mike in jail whatever you know don’t say it’s like. So it’s this is this really messed up thing. And there are a lot of witness parents out there who not only after their son or daughter leaves the organization will replace them like they’ve kind of done here with your ex-wife but they honestly somewhere in their deranged minds at this point think that well others in the new system just have replacement kids for the ones I lost. And I don’t even miss them any more. I mean it’s the most messed up detached narcissistic thing. And that is like dad is somehow like at the core of this this faith that they have that they can do that. It’s something I’ll never understand. You know it’s messed up. You can’t understand it because you got your humanity back. They still have their strip from them you know. And I don’t know it’s just mind blowing. Yeah. And you know at the end of the day it’s so interesting because I had a conversation with my now being outside you know I’m rekindling these relationships. Take for instance my sister. Take for instance my sister who you know ran away at 16.

[02:30:20] There was a huge gap in years where we barely talked or saw each other and she now has five boys I have five nephews and yeah it’s crazy. And it took me over a year to reach out to her to say I apologize for not contacting you when I was an adult. And I could easily came and saw my nephews and you know I contacted my aunt my my dad’s sister who was disfellowshipped when she was 19 and has been out for almost 30 years. I’m Wrekin only rekindling these relationships and it was strenuous at first because I have to admit and apologize for being a grown ass man not talking to somebody because they didn’t believe the same thing that I did and my family did but they probably understand they did. And they welcomed me back with open arms and they said there’s absolutely no need to apologize and they couldn’t be more supportive. And I you know I just talked to one of my aunts the other day and she was just like you know one thing I don’t understand is how your parents could even even if it was that you just had had an affair with your wife. You know my mom did that to my dad as well when they were married. The only difference was they they stuck it out and stayed Jehovah’s Witnesses. But now now because I don’t believe the same thing and I did the same thing. But it’s for completely different reasons. My mom and father shunning me because of something that they had went through. It doesn’t make any sense at all. No it doesn’t. It does.

[02:31:55] And the difference is is I chose not to stay with my wife because ultimately I knew it would be better for the both of us. I wanted to ruin her life and ruin mine. It was no one I couldn’t do that be spiritual anymore. Be a part of that organization. And I wanted to let her be free. And there were certain steps that have to be taken within that organization that you’re going to be you’re going to be the problem you’re going to be the reason why everything failed is because you took that media out and you didn’t want to make it work. And that’s just not the case and people will ever understand that. And that’s why I love you know what you’re doing is because you’re giving people that have left a voice to tell their side of the story so that if anybody should come stumbling across this that still might be in and might know that person they’re gonna be like oh wow there is a second side of the story you know. Yes I did think about it that way. But yes I don’t know the other side because you know I’ve always thought about you know doing this as a way to give a voice back to the voiceless because shunning is a way to shut people up. Yeah. And yes it absolutely is. You know here’s the other side of the story here’s the side that you’re not allowed to hear that you’re not allowed to think about. And there are a lot of other stories out there of people who who have never been heard. And it feels good to be heard and validated.

[02:33:24] And and I don’t know it’s just so it’s so gross what they do and trying to. They’re like little kids sticking their fingers in their ears and going la la la. You like it. You know it’s so immature and it really is and I’m so honored that you know people want to tell their stories with me. You know doing this right. And and put out that other side. It’s I don’t know it’s a really cool thing to be able to do. Absolutely and that’s that’s the way that I viewed it was I got so low and you know I you know on paper when I was married and part of that organization people outside looking in our life was perfect. And and you know I don’t blame them for the way that things looked at face value. But that absolutely wasn’t the case. And now being shown you know I essentially lost everything that I worked hard for. But what I still have left that the organization can’t take away from me is my voice and my side of the story. So I was like if anybody were to question theirs and you know whether there’s somebody who might know me or not. I want to give that person an outlet that I found to when I was wavering in my beliefs was listening to podcasts about religion and people how they left their faith. It’s not easy but what people have to understand is that you have to be methodical about it. If you’re being manipulated manipulate the situation back because you need to come out on top to sustain your sanity. And yeah.

[02:35:02] So things like this where people are telling their side of the story and how they navigated around those things. I think you know we’ll do wonders for increasing the amount of people that gain that courage to jump ship and swim back to shore and start start over fresh like they deserve to that’s very well said. So what would you like people to know. Like who have never been Jehovah’s Witnesses to know about the religion like if you could tell somebody out there who has never been a witness you know other than your story. Like is there anything that you think that they should know about this this cult. No. I mean you just said it perfectly. I think that the only thing that I would say is that it absolutely is a call and that took me some time even outside of the religion to come to the conclusion of believing and you know. You know Joves witnesses will say oh we don’t we don’t define ourselves as a call or accept that type of terminology but if anybody outside is looking at jobs witnesses like they’re just a fun loving group of well-dressed well-spoken people they’d be absolutely correct. But it’s not by choice. They’re robots that is just conditioned to parrot and project what they’re what they’re taught through the publications that they’re only allowed to read so that to me would define a call at its finest which is this is what you get to take in.

[02:36:26] And this is what you do and if you waver you were you are shunned and you know I was just talking to somebody the other day and I said Jehovah’s Witnesses are like the Hitler regime of our time which is you know essentially ethnically cleansing the Earth which is you don’t you don’t believe or support this war. We have nothing to do with you and this is the last time Jesus is you know coming to your door. I mean their greatest hope in life is that Jehovah God instituted the great war of Armageddon to kill billions of people and whilom off the face of the earth. Just so this band of eight million people so their lives can be made a little easier. Right. Well thick you know dystopia they think you know that that your only hope in life that the only thing you can look forward to is the destruction of literally everyone and everything around you so that you can go hug a panda on a paradise. Yeah yeah absolutely. And honestly that was one of the first things that went through my mind as far as really understanding what I was a part of when if people just had the people in the organization just had the ability to go from the very beginning the furthest back all the way to Adam and Eve and the great sand. You know they you know they were instructed not to do something. They did it and we all had to suffer. And we we are basically chess pawns in Gods game of proving his you know is saying the devil wrong. And along the line look at how many people have died because of this game and it’s just getting to the point where you know they’re saying oh we’re living in the times of the end.

[02:38:15] No we’ve always said that the only difference that is change is that we live in the age of technology and the availability to share information is becoming increasingly more and more available to people to where they’re able to see the ins and outs the good and bad of what’s going on. And of course the battle is going to be highlighted because it’s the most interesting. But you know take for instance you live in in gaining a second time like that was the end of the world. You know what I’m saying. Right. Wouldn’t you rather live today or show up in the Roman Coliseum. Yeah exactly. And people people don’t like to look at it like that. That to them was the end of the world they were they would probably rather die than live. And now we’re you know thrown are ugg boots on and walking to Starbucks and you know meter is going to come down from the sky. But apostates are talking badly about their religion. What a horrible time to live. It’s ridiculous. I just really wish that people would take a deeper look and re-evaluate their situation even at the smallest level. Like going like I said all the way back to the beginning and Adam and Eve and how it’s just all just a game between. If there is a God you know somebody who’s dominating his power. So the assertion of power now that you you are out. Is there anything that you’ve learned since being out that has really helped you grow.

[02:39:41] Is there anything that any books any podcasts videos anything that that has helped you grow as just a human being or just helped you kind of clear your mind of you know the past or understand it. Yeah you know what I what I learned about myself first of all being outside was I didn’t realize how much stress and anxiety that I had within the organization that it caused me. And people tend not to understand that while they’re in it’s that. Do you ever look at what you’re a part of as being the cause or the root of whatever suffering you may be going through. People don’t want to believe that that might be the case. But in mine absolutely was because after I went to Yeah after I went to that period after leaving there was a good year where I didn’t want to deal with my emotions and I just was heavily drinking and just numbing myself. But once I really started to take a stand and meet the right people that motivated me to just like to just do your thing start living for yourself and stop thinking about the past because you know it’ll just repeat itself. And once I started to re-evaluate what I wanted out of life whether it was doing this hobby or dedicating this time to that you really start at once you start living for yourself it’s like the illustration of you know in an airplane incident where if you know you’re supposed to put the mask on your face first before you can even help a child sitting next to you. So once you understand that you really ultimately have to take care of your well-being before you can be beneficial to anybody else that that’s when you start growing and for me I started to become more of a kind hearted understanding individual.

[02:41:27] That was a really humbled by the experience. And a lot of the help that I had along the way was you know listening to Joe Rogan and some of the scholars that he has on and then going diving deeper into those scholars. You know Lloyd Evans wrote you know in his book The Reluctant apostate where he goes he jumps in You know he used to be an elder I’m sure you’re familiar with him in. Oh yeah. Yeah. You get a you get a understanding you know if there’s any Jehovah’s Witnesses that might be listening to this they’re still in the faith like this is taking from a perspective of somebody who if you didn’t tell you that he wasn’t a jobs witness and you just heard his voice you would think that he still was because he debates in the utmost respect and uses only their publications. Oh the debate is very good and that’s yeah. And that’s what I love the most. When I was just kind it put dip in my foot into you know quote unquote apostate material was that he didn’t use any outside resources other than really diving into their own publications and pointing out key points. Well this is how can be perceived and that’s how they perceive it. But this is how it should be perceived. Don’t you agree. And maybe you don’t but in a lot of cases I did. So his book and his YouTube channel was very instrumental of me starting to dive deeper into the publications themselves within the organization.

[02:42:55] And then also Ray friends you know crisis of conscious conscious and you know things like that these are these are the catalysts things that I would recommend anybody that might be wavering or may be outside looking for a sense of purpose. It really does give you a good outlet to justify the feelings that you have. And there’s nothing better than you know just feeling good about how you feel about a search situation especially when everything everything’s stacked against you all the people that you know or knew think that you’re in the wrong. Even though in your mind you feel that you’re not. So you’ve obviously learned a lot you know gotten some new and fresh perspectives. What do you what do you enjoy about your new life. You know since you’ve been out. What I love about my new life is the fact that you know I work so much and I’m busy. I work six days a week and a lot of that had to do with just filling time that I had. Now a lot of it was a lot of free time. Now that would typically go towards you know dedication to my spirituality in meeting attendance. And once you have those that free time you can really dive into what you enjoy. You know there was a recent broadcast thatJ.W. put out that that I watched that was talking about the unnecessary things of life you know and they’re filling a bucket with rocks and there’s big rocks about like personal study Bible reading field ministry and all the little Roxanne’s all the bullshit that you’d rather do. And you know it’s like take out all these little rocks of the big rocks could fit in because they matter most. And then sprinkle in some what you want to do.

[02:44:41] But in actuality if you’re not doing what you want to do then you’re truly never going to be happy and you’re never you’re never in a progressive life you’re just going to be stagnant. And I think that that’s the worst place to fall into. Yeah. Agree. It’s the cause of a lot of depression anxiety and misery in life when you’re living an authentic life. It’s not what you really want to do right. It doesn’t have to be extreme and that’s how my parents are my my ex-wife would say is like what. What is so beneficial to you now that you justify not coming back. And it’s like you don’t understand it. It’s so many things on so many different levels that you’ll never understand because you’re not questioning the finer things and until you do that you will understand if I was just thinking about how they just they can never. You said they could never understand. There’s a there’s a moment when you wake up and you’re finally free. There’s a feeling of relief that comes with that. That yeah. You know we all want for our loved ones to feel someday. Absolutely. And it’s something that I would say sadly maybe for myself at least I felt like I think there’s there’s almost a high that comes with that that you can’t you can’t get again in life without. I guess going back to some other torture is prison. Right. And you know riding out the other side.

[02:46:22] But there’s a piece that you get when you can just wake up each day and realize that this is your life and what you do today is your decision and you’re not looking to somebody else to tell you what you should do how you should think how you should feel. I really wish you know I hope you know for your sake and for the sake of those that you love that that you know as witnesses we would always if we had friends or family who were disfellowshipped or whatever we would say well you know as long as there’s time in a system there’s time for them to come back. Right. Well I’ll flip that and say you know as long as there’s time in those people’s lives you know there’s there is time where you know who knows maybe statistically you know at least one more person from our past comes out and maybe someday we get to reunite with them. And so I try to hold out hope even even though you know it’s a total crap shoot. There’s no guarantees. You know who knows maybe someday we get to talk to some of those people again. Yeah absolutely. And you know I look forward to hopefully that time being sooner than later. There’s so many issues you know in the news that the organization is being criticized for. And it’s just becoming more and more prevalent not to people you know outside the organization obviously but to people inside to that there’s a lot of things that the organization is covering up and not making public for a reason.

[02:47:58] You know once once people start to wake up it’s going to be because of the scrutiny and the criticism that the organizations are under and it’s going to start lighting a small fire for people to really look at the inner workings of the governing body and the things that they’ve been involved with the past. A lot of people don’t know that you know the investments that they’ve made in military and you know been part of theU.N. even though we’re not supposed to be a part of this world. It’s just it’s one thing after the other. If people just did the slightest amount of research not not. And that’s the problem with the organization is every day they want to just drive in New information new white like you’re so over inundated with new information you never have a chance to take a step back. And it’s funny being outside of the organization. You would think that oh somebody would you know they would crawl back or find their way. And that being outside would make them feel like they need to study and learn. But in fact I thought that that would happen to me. In fact it’s driven further because I’ve had that time to be more introspective and look into these things. And it’s it’s making me more and more disgusted for even being ever associated with an organization that can call themselves the quote unquote truth and hold those people to those high expectations. It’s hard to look back and believe believe that you once were involved in this. You know this cult you kind of already touched on it a little bit. But I just wanted to ask you know if if you had a moment and you could say anything you wanted to your friends or family that show you what would you say is there anything that you’d like to tell them.

[02:49:43] I would just I would tell them to really sit down and think about what your intuition is telling you not what is what is expected of you because you can let that get carried away and it can become your life in your mindset. But once you start to really evaluate here your intuition and what you’re internalizing and let that speak to you it will it will guide you to what you should be doing. And I doubt that it’s what what what they think it is you know they just don’t allow themselves to to just tease the idea of questioning. And once you know I think that God gave us free will for a reason if you know God does exist. And if there’s one thing that the organization taught me it’s to fight for what I believe in and now it’s not that. Yeah I was I was founded a little curious that they would you know harp on the freewill we had but yet they would essentially take that freewill away through their policies and procedures. Yeah as an organization it’s very hypocritical. It is yeah very very much so. JR There’s your past life I guess. How does your past life affect you today. You know you’re a couple of years out. Not really that long when you compare it to the length of time that you spent in church and clearly you know I think all of us doing this podcast or listening to this podcast today or in some way still in a process of recovery that that it will probably last a lifetime.

[02:51:24] But is there any specific way anything right now that you kind of struggle with from it that I see honestly just coming to terms you know the fact that when I’m in the you know for whatever reason I don’t know why but when I meet new people inevitably religion in my past will come up you know just because that’s all I had known so long. And so when they come to find out that I was a part of that they say to me not because I live in this super crazy lifestyle that it is not in accord with the Bible they just straight up tell me you do not strike me as somebody who would ever be a Jehovah’s Witness. And I take that as a compliment now is because to be associated with such a like mindedness is not a good feeling once you’re outside of it when you realize how indoctrinated these people are. It’s almost like you are a robot. And so what I’ve learned being outside of it is to really think for yourself and apply critical thinking and reason with everything not just in you religious or spiritual spirituality it’s everything in life and that’s how you make good decisions in life is when you really criticize every aspect you question everything and come to a firm understanding that way it is just it’s priceless. I like that you said you. You’re not afraid or ashamed to make your story known because that’s been a big deal for myself and my wife and it’s just it’s one of those things that if you’re vulnerable and allow yourself to be vulnerable people respect that and you know they will have a greater understanding of.

[02:53:21] I mean let’s face it I think all of us that leave the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses are any cult that has people isolated we fit in but only to an extent. Right. You know there are a lot of social things that I don’t get. There are a lot of cultural references that maybe I don’t get I didn’t watch a lot of the popular movies and things like that and I may not get certain references. But when you are open enough to tell people your story they they gain a better understanding of you. And then it’s easier to make friends but you have to be willing to put yourself out there. And it’s the. It’s not easy to do. It’s definitely not easy to be in such a vulnerable vulnerable position. But what I understand is that I have nothing to lose and I’m not ashamed of my past I’m ashamed of what I had to do to get to where I’m at now especially being married and having to do it I had to do to her that Yeah that is something that will always haunt me because there’s a big stigma about that. There’s a big label about men or women that you know cheat on their spouse. But what I want people to understand is that that that you’re sometimes your hand is forced in a decision. And ultimately you have to make something that goes innately against your standards or morals because they put those things in place not because you want to just ruin somebodies life.

[02:54:51] And that’s what I think is most important for people exiting is to tell their story their side of the story that it’s not all that somebody just lost their mind and they lost their way and that they just don’t know what they want. It’s not the case you know and what you know people tend to forget is you know we’re not the same people over time and if you get married super young inevitably you guys are going to change you guys are going to grow together you’re going to grow apart. You know I mean even science says that all of the cells in our body replace themselves. You know something like 10 years. So technically you’re a completely new person. And unless you have somebody by your side who’s willing to stick through thick and thin and understand you guys don’t have to agree upon everything. But if you guys want to make it work you have to be a little wavering in what you might like or not like just for the sake of you know working it out with your spouse. Yeah you’re not Jehovah’s Witnesses put a an unnecessary burden on married couples that essentially they are to be carbon copies of one another. You know that they are to have this there to be unified in the cold essentially believes and and it’s so unfair because that’s just not a couple is typically two people who although they may have some similar interests. I like this. There is a quote I heard one time minutes if the two of you are exactly alike then one of you is not necessary. Right. And I really like that you know you want to be in a relationship with someone who brings something different to the party.

[02:56:39] You know you don’t want carbon copies but we were raised in an environment where you did want carbon copies you wanted other people to think like you and feel like you it everything. And it’s such an unfair unrealistic expectation. Yeah. And it really negatively impacts a lot of relationships. Absolutely and I know it might sound cliche but one of the quotes that really got me back to those struggling years was Kurt Cobain saying I’d rather people hate me for who I am than love me for who I’m not. And I thought that that was so fitting within that organization is that sometimes you find yourself just living a life that is not you and you come to that understanding and you’re just like I can’t do this anymore. And I would rather those people hate me for that than you know love me for who I was just perceiving myself to be in front of them. It’s the weirdest thing to explain. Absolutely. So now you’re you’ve got this new perspective now you appear to be you. What do you have any dreams for your new life. Is there anything in you got any plans in the works or anything that you’re hoping to achieve other than just has it. Yeah yeah. I mean other than just being happy everyday. Now I’ve done a lot of traveling which has been great. It’s been getting my mind off of a lot of things and seeing you know experiencing new places and that’s been really great. I’m getting into real estate so I’m going to be holding on to the business that I already have in just getting into something that I think that I would enjoy. And I never got to that availability.

[02:58:13] You know I was kind of thrust into the workforce just for the sake of being independent but I never really questioned exactly what I would rather be doing. Right. And I think with that line of job as far as pursuing real estate you would allow me to you know have a little bit more of a flexible schedule than I do now as well as you know. You know different amount of income to where it would allow that I could have more time off to do more extensive traveling and that’s essentially what I’m aiming for is leaving for you know months at a time if at all possible to different places to really take in different cultures and understand the world even more than I’m starting to you know know it as it is now. I love I love that that sounds awesome man that I cut you off. I don’t know if I cut you off. Oh no no no. Have you any other dreams you want to throw out there but I think that that’s that’s awesome. I’ve never been able to go out and experience different cultures. But in our business we work around people at towns who have been able to and just the lessons that they’ve told us that they’ve learned from doing so and the beautiful people and things they’ve been able to see in their travels. I mean in the end life is about experiences and you know to be able to have those experiences and have that shape a mold who you are. That’s one of the more beautiful things you can hope for in life. Absolutely. I couldn’t agree any more.

[02:59:52] I want to thankD.J for being so vulnerable and for telling his story. I also wanted to add something here to clarify something for people that might not be familiar with the policy of Jehovah’s Witnesses regarding divorce. WhatD.J says here is true and I know it sounds crazy but Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that the only real grounds for what they call quote scriptural divorce divorce that gives you scriptural grounds to remarry is adultery. That’s it. So you can get divorced for other reasons though honestly they frown on that. But maybe now let’s say that you were you were being abused or something like that that you were in physical danger. Of course there are always going to push you back toward the abuser as many times as they can but they will sometimes allow divorce for that. But when you get divorced whether you want to or not or whether they allow it or not but you’re not scripturally free to remarry as they see it unless it is due to adultery. If you do remarry you must prove that your former spouse has moved on sexually to someone else or you might face discipline within the congregation. You could be disfellowshipped or approved. And yes I’m serious about this. This is this is real life. A woman might get divorced because her husband beats her but her sexuality is forever linked to the abuser. And so he takes it elsewhere and admits to it or you know maybe remarries himself or something like that which would obviously show that he has moved on so you can hear howD.J doing what he did was uncomfortable for him. You can hear how he has regrets.

[03:01:36] Hopefully you can imagine the ridiculous pressure put on him by this cult pressure that neither served him nor his wife nor anyone involved. This whole issue of divorce in the court is super messy and dysfunctional but they see him as God’s law and he knows best. So surely that these rules that are clearly not fair and that don’t work and are very dysfunctional they must be best because they’re from God as they see it. If you want to leave a comment forD.J you can do so. Shunnedpodcast.com. Again shunnedpodcast.com just click on the episodes page and you’ll see historie there you can leave comments there. You can also see more information and links to resources there. will have the opportunity to respond to you too. So you know it’s encouraging when people interact after somebody has been so vulnerable to try to help others with their story. Now next month we have a story of an amazing woman named Brenda that escaped the LDS cult. For those who are unfamiliar FLDS stands for the Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints. So it’s kind of like a fundamentalist Mormon denomination. Their leader Warren Jeffs is in prison as a convicted child molester and is currently serving a sentence of life plus 20 years. He still controls the group even from prison. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen the show on Hulu called The Handmaid’s Tale but if you are then you’re familiar with the concept of a group that sees women as objects in just about every aspect of life.

[03:03:14] And in a world where women are reaching more and more for their rights and hashtags like me too are trending you know this is an interview that I think women will be really attracted to hearing. There are still places even in the United States where the culture of oppression of women dominates. Of course you know the interesting thing is that many women in this culture think they’re happy. And let’s not forget that you know it’s not healthy for the men either. This is the impacts of this group on their members of whether they be men or women. It’s fascinating but it’s also really frightening a look into a world that many of us cannot fathom but that is so real and hurting real people out there. So look for Brenda’s episode the first week of May if you haven’t already now would be a great time to subscribe so that you won’t miss it when it comes out. Now I’ve had people reach out to me asking if I have any ways to support the show financially. You can always support the show by leaving a positive review on iTunes that really helps because it helps get the word out so that you know more people can find it and maybe they can get help themselves. But I’ve also gone ahead and started a Patreon page where you can donate to the show now if you like. I do have ongoing costs. Every month that I put out there to keep this going you know don’t worry I’m not going to discontinue the show. I’m not going to be one of those people who threatens you. You know you know I can’t continue this show if you don’t donate.

[03:04:53] I’m not going to do that I hate that I’m going to do this show whether anyone pitches in or not because this is important to me. It’s important to the people that get to tell their stories and you know hopefully it’s important to you to as you listen. With that said there are ongoing costs and I’m taking a course in search engine optimization right now to try to help get this message out even more. Part of the SBO efforts could be having transcripts produced to help produce more contents on the site but it’s looking like that could costs anywhere between 30 and 50 dollars per episode to get that done. Depending on the length of the episode and that’s for a computer generated transcript that’s done with the program that’s not an actual human doing this. So you know that’s even a cheap way to get this done. I also pay for hosting for the audio of this podcast and also Jay stateJ.W. your life for the hosting of the Web sites. Spend time managing plugins responding to emails cutting out spam interviewing people producing audio of purchase microphones audio recorders I even purchased a new laptop because my old one was old and underpowered. So you know I’m all in on this. I will continue to be. This is not going anywhere. But if you choose to donate you don’t think I’m getting rich off this or anything. If you want to help defray the costs you can go to Patrie on dot com slash fund. Again that’s Patreon.com/shunned and you can sign up to become a donor if you like. I don’t have any rewards for you.

[03:06:36] There are options to set up rewards for people for donating. This podcast itself will have to be the reward for now it’s enough for me to keep up with already I don’t have time to create anything special on top of that. But you know if if you do choose to donate I really appreciate it and it does help defray the costs. I also had some t shirts made for this J.W. life that I wore on a visit to Brooklyn. That’s why I posted some pictures of myself from my wife wearing those shirts and there were people who liked it more like you know where can I get this shirt. I didn’t know that was really my story so I kind of felt weird selling shirts that other people would advertise just just my story on it. So I’m thinking about making some t shirts for shunned and you know if anyone has interest let me know I’m going to get some aid from my wife and see how they look first and then you know I’ll let you know that there could be another way to maybe support the show if I make a few dollars on a on a T-shirt sale. You know go to some measure of defraying costs but you know all that aside you know. Thank you so much for listening for supporting what I do here for the reviews on iTunes for the beautiful e-mails that I get from people for the comments that you give to people that I interview. That’s encouraging to me to see people get involved and support one another. Really just just for everything.

[03:08:12] I had no idea what power doing something like this could have in my own life and on the lives of those that get involved the lives of people who tell their story and then seem like they’re so much freer emotionally from from you know kind of walking up and unloading their baggage on some level this isn’t this isn’t just an audio program. It’s people’s real lives a slice of life that you know was silenced by these religious groups. And I’m glad that we can all come together and give this voice back to the voiceless so as always love others do no harm and go be happy.