Episode Eight – Bonus Content – Sexual Abuse and Jehovah’s Witnesses – David’s Story

Bonus Episode.mp3

[00:00:02] Welcome to the shunned podcast. This episode is actually a bonus episode. This is a little bit different. It’s really pretty much an excerpt from the pre interview that I did with David for his podcast. You’ve pretty much heard his whole story but there was well when I interview anyone. I don’t necessarily know their stories going in. Sometimes I know a little bit about them. Perhaps I’ve seen them on Instagram or Twitter or something maybe they have a little bit of a blog. There might be something I know at times other times I really go in completely blind. So when we were talking before his actual story while I was getting the levels together and just you know threw a little bit of chit chat he started. David started to tell me about this Steve B guy and things got real pretty quick and in that I felt like we had a conversation that was worth sharing that that maybe there were other people out there that might be helped by hearing some of what we shared together so I went ahead and extracted that excerpt from the preinterview. We actually ended up having a much longer conversation than even what you’re going to have here on this episode but I thought it was worth hearing especially for those who have been victims of abuse and you know of course any of us x Jehovah’s Witnesses can relate. So a lot of probably what you’ll hear here so go ahead and leave it to that and I hope you get something out of this. The Bee who was sort of predatorial was late.

[00:02:13] He’s probably in his 50s now but one of his things is he’s very Apostle Paul like taking young like that’s how it started was he was from New York and we were just some you know Minnesota kids and he’s like oh I’ll show you the world fluid out there my you my brother. And then the next time he thought well I want to show you the city more without. Not like Joan was drag but my younger brother just you by yourself. So that was when you’re in the big city is the only present I really know an out and out of of itself and it sucks cause as an adult you know I was 18 I should have been able. Like I felt so stupid and embarrassed and just frozen with fear. I should have been able to stand up for myself or use my voice or say it what what is this. But you know the power of church and trust in somebody who has influence over me you like whether or not you reached some arbitrary age. Adulthood is like I had nothing but boyish naivety and absolute trust in this person. It was unimaginable the scenario I found myself in and I froze and I did every. Even though I knew better. I really really tried to tell myself I was having strange dreams as what it was. You know you disassociated. That’s the psychological term you disassociate internally and and try to distance your brain is trying to distance you from what is happening. So it makes you feel like it’s a dream. It makes you feel it’s a protection.

[00:03:42] It’s like a built in failsafe for when something traumatic is happening and I go crazy because I just can’t like i’m cry a lot during this thing I know. But like just the fire inside. Like your whole body. If you’ve ever read those it you know it just instantly crumbles like I just thought I would absolutely implode like that for every second that stretched on. It could have been 10 minutes it could have been 20 years. I couldn’t I was so I just had nothing could have prepared me for that moment. Like all the prayers and like I just don’t know like it was some talisman over and over. Please stop please make us stop you know like nothing happened. Of course I of the awful outside. I also. Something you said. I just mean I’m not a therapist but you said that you you. You kind of blame yourself for. Or you said you know I was 18 and I should have been able to to stop it or whatever. And you know let me absolve you of that because that’s not that’s not true. The fact that predators groom people and this guy it sounds like is a professional at it. He had you in a situation where you were isolated he did something that you would have never expected. Freezing is a natural human response. We all have the flight or fight response and you don’t get to pick what it is that’s that your body naturally does and your mind naturally does in such a situation. So you know for some people yes they would fight. But that’s just that’s just a natural thing. It doesn’t mean that they chose that either.

[00:06:00] A person who flees even if that fleeing is to disassociate mentally to to leave their body essentially you know mentally that is that is just a natural response. And it’s not something that we have control over. I god I just I wish that it never happened to anybody. And I do fear that this guy I mean the way he invited you up there and all that like every time he’s ever come to Minnesota he usually brings a New Yorker where they’re big city folk and they don’t know the country like rural Minnesota come out in service with us once in these rural territories were every road is gravel and straight for miles. Like I think he travels with people a lot. I just wonder it’s usually like a young male traveling companion you like to meet the Barnabus and all that kind of like Apostle Paul. People like it when you’re in the truth because it feels like the apostle Paul. I’m thinking. Has any of these other guys like Was I an isolated incident like that which is that of itself. I’ve had emails with other people and I’m very clear like I said that’s why aren’t I thank you for your absolving me of it because I’m past that. But I still feel the I’m past it and I know it but knowing it and like is just one of those things and that’s why I don’t know actually intellectually knowing it and you’re emotionally feeling it exactly.

[00:07:33] Exactly because yeah that’s one of the things I always told Missy is you know like the part that sucks is we can sit and watch the Scientology stuff and she’ll talk about someone who is like 087. And I not having been raised in scientology I just get the sense of that comment means all of this was a person high up high ranking. And so I understand that that adds weight to the argument about to be presented. However that doesn’t impress me when a witness so if I hear somebody who went to Bethel or an ex elder there is this emotional like oh that’s the impressive thing because you are familiar with the sacrifices and time commitments it takes to get that far up and then you just feel like it’s when I ever stop being Can it just come like mindless information like as simple as 087 where I won’t be impressed that someone made it that far up or I won’t have those emotional responses to it. That that should be something that registers as simple as reading something I was not familiar with. Yeah I I don’t know if if you’re aware of this and I guess I I don’t know if this is helpful at all or not. It’s so. I know myself as a witness. I was pretty judgmental and as witness as we were taught that’s that everything we did was basically our choice.

[00:09:08] We were kind of conditioned control freaks to think that things that happened to us were things that we we wanted to happen because we made choices that led to those things and there are I used to always wonder I could never grasp why let’s say a battered woman would stay with her husband or there were instances where I’ve heard of people who were raped women let’s say in this case who were raped who then went back to that same man and then like dated that person. And I could never understand that. But what I’ve come to learn is that it’s kind of our brains way of trying to prove to ourselves that we did have control and that we wanted it. People tend to go back to their abuser because they’re trying to their brains subconsciously. It’s not a conscious thing it’s not a conscious choice but their brain is so traumatized it’s trying to set up scenarios whereby they go back to that person so that they can feel like yeah like I have control over that so that they can make it right so that they can maybe flip the script and you know from an outsider’s perspective it looks like you know well maybe you weren’t raped. I mean look at you you’re going back to this person and you know the witnesses would use the dog returning to its vomit or whatever crap script they use for that stuff. But it’s a natural human psychological phenomena. It is not a moral failing. It is it does not make a person a bad person. It makes a person a hurt person that is following a natural course. And that makes a lot of sense. It’s so funny because when I heard your story it just spoke to me so much that I got were like super similar like a lot of ways. But I also really like the heart which you came from. You know it felt like I’ll get into that when we tell the story more or less.

[00:11:22] But the idea that I thought God this is the person who went through what I went through but thought and felt so the humanity side of you like I don’t know if you were taking a personality test the common ENFP you know and like most witnesses you will find fall into that category of where we belong to the idealists whether it’s teacher the healer and stuff like that and sort them into a lie A.J. if I remember oh OK I may be wrong on that. Yeah I think it’s just interesting how like it’s weird because it’s a religion that brings a certain mindset it attracts a certain mindset and then it festers it further and then like whether you’d like you said about the dog returning to its vomit or there’s so many things that we do. Naturalise humans that I feel I know from myself. I was a young wild teen who wanted to push the envelope a lot you know rebellious and read Lord of the Rings and books like that and I listened to heavy metal music and you know I had a lot of that. But for me the funny part was I cared which also made it hurt a lot. Like what people thought did hurt. And you know I tried to think for myself and push the envelope and eventually my very first disfellowshipping. That’s kind of exactly what it was when I said you know what I’m not going to do anything like awful but having to just I’m just going to go out and just get my sense of self disfellowshipped almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[00:12:55] So then I can start over at zero and like all this nonsense that where I am waffling between what my issues are will be clear cut and then it just climb climb the ladder that I wanted to hit that rock bottom so I could climb up. And then if you like until you identify that bottom for me the bottom like my wife you know she thinks like she loves that I was squeaky clean the stuff I did that pushed the envelope you know like for my first disfellowshipping it basically amounted to lose kont inducts which only is to sell shippable if there’s a pattern of it because you’re clearly not quite sure what it was. You know it’s just like you’re so squeaky clean. I’m thinking I know but like this is stuff I hated myself like I to watching my actions in my own hands like do things that you know just it’s put in you. Of course of course that’s how they control you. They make you feel shame that you’re a horrible human being over normal human things and that is how they get their claws in you. And you know once they have you feeling so terrible about yourself you have to turn to them for everything for you know what is right what is wrong because obviously you don’t know you’re a horrible person. So yeah I mean that’s that’s how they control you men. I don’t know I’m just I’m just so sorry. That’s you know you had to go through those things. I’m sorry that all of us had to go through all of these things. It’s part of the reason I guess I’m doing this podcast too.

[00:14:39] And the reason I told my own story was to shed a light on it because there is a good life out there and it’s not to be found in Jehovah’s Witnesses. People need to know that people need to be set free because there are a lot of people walking around feeling terrible about themselves and the implications of this. You know I guess I’m not sure how long you’ve been out but it still has an impact years later on people. I was just in fact I just got a new Facebook friend the other day. It was somebody that that I knew growing up and I don’t man I don’t know how long she’s been out but it’s probably been at least over a decade and she’s just now looking at the stuff and starting to wake up. You know she’s in house and she’s disfellowshipped she’s she’s living a different life. But it’s so hard to look at this stuff because it’s so traumatizing for most people that you know it takes a long time to even get enough distance from it where you can start to look at it. I know I have three brothers IRL two brothers and sisters three siblings still alive. And my brother just got married in October and his wife you know I right now I am finally comfortable enough and secure enough and I’m worthy enough to say no this was or I was wrong. You were in the wrong. You know this was wrong. This is failed by use the B. I was failed by you and I. Come and get me. You want to challenge it. I dare you to. You know you look yourself in the mirror and try to say it with a straight face it didn’t happen like this religion is wrong wrong wrong.

[00:16:35] And like I rail against this organization I told my brother Jonah I’m an apostate and he’s younger than me and he’s been out for over a decade but he’s just happy working. Being a businessman and living his life you choose tobacco and drinks all the time you know he’s a good guy he just has those habits that are you know I don’t want to I still live a clean life. I just am not a witness in my mind. But he like recoiled when I had just said I’m an apostate I’m quite an apostate. And I thought it was like I know I had slapped him because he’s and same thing about a brother Ruben like. These are people who have been out for over a decade and they look at me like when Ruben’s bride I have railed against that to her. I told her like how thankful I was just to be at this wedding because it’s the first wedding of any of my siblings. I was I was acting you know and that was a huge thing for me and I’m crying and I’m saying I’m so glad that I’m here for you guys I think Ruben found a really good mom and she’s like yeah. And we talked a little bit about religion I was like I said in religion I hate that I perpetrated that stuff. Misto real siblings real life going on and she’s like it’s OK. You’re here now. And I just can’t see why anyone would ever want to go back to that which really. Like what.

[00:17:47] So he thinks that he might have mentioned things to her where he still might believe it but these are people who have just grown so comfortable with. I’m going to smoke and drink and live what I want just knowing it’s wrong that I’m doing wrong and that I’m bad and I’m thinking no no no no no. Like you guys please look at stuff I will Baburova you books I will send you thing and I want them to like you just got married to this nice gal in a Lutheran church and she’s not like oh we have to wear church time forcing hers on you. And if you’re even hinting that down the line you want to go back to this. Been out for so long and the changes you’re going to have to make. I see that that’s going to be nothing but divisive and I don’t want them to for this especially you know like. And there will be problems in a marriage. But to bring this in is like you know destruction he. How can he even be thinking that because to me that’s like Ruben this religion has ripped our family to pieces and has done nothing but I don’t know. I think for him there’s a psychology that says until he was married you could never feel like he actually had the grounds to go back on and start over. Like what. I’m living in sin. What’s the what’s the point of going back to meetings but now that he’s got that he might be thinking about it. So when they told me you know apostate it was like I said well what interests me like I have a difference.

[00:19:06] I differ in my belief from that organization and I think it’s you don’t ever feel like you failed them they failed you and you you’re not you’re not living as you want and it’s bad and you’re wrong for it. They’re wrong. That’s the main thing is you need to understand it so I try to drop nuggets as I don’t know but doesn’t know how strong the indoctrination is. It is it is so strong that when you’re in it you never look at it because you’re told essentially not to look at it. Oh yeah. And then when you leave it you’re still not looking at it. And so that those feelings that shame that they implanted in you you still feel like a bad person here just because there are so many people I’ve met over the years that say and I remember we would meet them even when we were out knocking on doors and they would say well you know I studied with Jehovah’s Witnesses and you know mandos people they have the truth. But I just can’t live up to it. I just I just I just like to drink or smoke or whatever. And it’s the same thing it is. I mean you have witnesses active witnesses in good standing. That’s acts that behave in a human way. Whether that is the way they know the way they drink or you know some quote vice that they pick up or whether it’s the way they behave with the opposite sex or the same sex or whatever and they end up leaving because of the behavior but that’s a physical external thing. No one has addressed internally how they feel about it.

[00:20:57] And then here they are a decade later and they still feel internally the exact same way that they felt when they were sitting there in the Kingdom Hall being indoctrinated and it’s just it’s just amazing to look at humanity and how it can be manipulated. It’s really scary how it can be manipulated and I feel it I feel for your brother if that’s because it’s not a happy life. No. And I think he’s smart enough and he will win now and thank god. Honestly thank God like that. But you know my goodness that I am in the position I’m in now with the courage I have. And I know what I know and I own crisis of conscience even though I’m only halfway through it you know and I feel like I have a hard time reading it. It’s like I don’t want to finish. You know. Yes I get to a certain point and I say this is the nail in the coffin and then I look at how many pages are left I’m thinking good god there’s that much more to write about still like oh I can’t handle it right. I wouldn’t doubt it. A month later people have to go at their own pace so I’m not telling you what pace to go. But I will just encourage you a lot of people are kind of surprised that I guess how quickly I’ve been able to change my thoughts and feelings about some things that. Look Like. It’s a. See it was 2000 when I started when I got became suicidal and then it was 20 16 15 2015 when I left. So it took me you know quite a few years to start getting healthy emotionally and mentally.

[00:22:49] And then even then when we officially disassociated and left in September of 2015 I still on some levels thought they had the truth and kind of planned on kind of going out and being almost like an independent witness like just being I mean I wasn’t going to go to Keenum Hall or anything but I kind of still believed in a lot of the things and I’ll tell you I the only way that I know to do anything in my life the only way around is through. And that means for me if I’m going to get past something I have to. I literally immerse myself in it. And so every day when I would come home from work I would be on I hate even using the word apostate websites but I would be on different Web sites for Jehovah’s Witnesses reading and participating and asking questions and just diving in head first. Every day I got a crisis of conscience somebody had on YouTube and I ripped the audio from it and I would listen to it while I was at work. You can’t for me. I could not. The program slowly. Because every time I would get away from the deprogramming I would start thinking oh maybe they’re right. What about this. What about that. Yeah. And I just had to keep pushing until I examined everything so thoroughly that it has completely changed me as far as the way I see all of that stuff. And it’s a grieving process. It’s like anything else.

[00:24:40] I mean there’s going to be appointed time where you’re sad for everything you’ve lost there’s going to be another point in time where you are pissed off. Yes yeah. It’s I’m right there with you. I think my conversion was actually much swifter. It’s just that my life changed so quickly which I’ll get into that when we tell the story but I’m with you. And to me it’s just such a weighty happy book. Listen to a few podcasts which is also part of the interview. It’s just one of those things where the conversion of my mind was just such like even your podcast really really helped me a lot because like rey friends and like you I don’t know if you’ve ever listened to the critical thinker podcast. Yeah. Lady C. NJT 80. I right away knew. Oh. These were good witnesses. And I hate to use that term. Good or bad. But what I felt was the right. I was like Oh my goodness. A Bethyl like that impressed me. Now you’ve got my attention. Plus they just reek of people who aren’t bitter grinding axes railing away like there’s a lot of bitterness out there just for so so. But that wasn’t the message that was speaking to my heart it was. These guys are trying to help people and they have done. I know what research sounds like they’ve done their research and you could tell they are so lakes up sticky and he would and his first few podcasts JT and see what I liked about him whether it was like 10 minutes long. It was like a sort. It was like oh your bible study had such quick. Here’s the topic.

[00:26:18] We’re not going to get off topic and there’s a lot of topic and he just hit the approach shared a few like damning scriptures or things of their own from previous literature. And he thought reanimates that’s quite your list. After a 10 minute presentation of his against something the unwitnessed if you want to call it that. It was like I was left with an impression and then as they got into their longer like hour long podcasts like I thought these guys are they’re right they know what they’ve been through. And this is the guy who when he shares like the behind the scenes stuff happens at Bethyl or assembly halls and they count the money and pay payroll. And you start to realize oh man I know and what I loved about it too is I’m very rural Minnesota like I don’t want to say backwoods everybody else in my area’s backwoods hunting fishing Scandia. Blaze orange. All that I am different from my area which is one of the things that appeals to me about who I am but in my area I’m still not exposed to that. It’s good to hear that BTC and JT Who are you know very urban and have like well Kakuna most of the city folks just like to say it’s the same stuff everywhere and that’s awesome. I never thought about that perspective. But of course that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. Remove it from different perspectives and to see that it wasn’t just you. It was everywhere.

[00:27:39] Yeah and it wasn’t like well maybe if I lived in a hall where like when I went to New York I was like how many people like you have a year’s text and a bazillion languages up here. Be like how many people get in this hall. He goes It’s easy for him to be anonymous. I hate to go against him again. That’s just like grinds of course you could hide New York City just a few blocks over there is another kingdom hall and this would say I met this one now and people are always coming and going and all I used to go to the three o’clock meeting but work the schedule unless you could make an excuse for skipping out on the one o’clock and I just felt like such a tumbleweed. Like traveling around the world as he does and he’s never stayed in one place long enough to be appointed as a ministerial servant there just. I just. My gut tells me there’s others out there you know. I mean I can’t say for certain but I will tell you with 99 percent certainty that that guy what he did to you was crafted was well crafted and you don’t get to that point. I wouldn’t think on your first time that guy has done this before and he will and he may still do it. And that’s that’s a scary thought. Yeah. I don’t know that there’s a weirdness to it that like the analogy I always use is I don’t know which one is better and this is from an e-mail I first sent Steve when I was describing the thing is I think in his own weird way though to that he was partially I think he was gay first of all at nonpracticing gay and then the truth or the organization they make no allowance for that.

[00:29:18] So he was told put those feelings to bed will fix your brain and your system. So maybe he had been keeping it at bay and then he met some cheery eyed like naive boy like me enough where I think there is even though there was a good age difference. I do. It’s part of me says maybe I was this saw pray like because he was in a way in love with me and I was the one like I believe a lot of these guys are creeps to where I was I just don’t really want to say a special case. But like their expert profiles like where they can you can put them make a creep watch a bunch of kids at the playground and somehow they have this innate sense to say that’s the one who won’t tell anybody. You know that’s the loner kid that’s the one who you know just like I don’t know how. I can’t tell if it’s easier to be the one off and then say at least I took all of it. Or if it’s easier to digest by saying I was just another house in the dorms path of a tornado and like unfortunately there’s a lot of us out there. I think I think it’s just different. I don’t I don’t know that one is I mean statistically it’s better if it was only one person that he hurt. You know that’s from a various statistical way of looking at it. But you know in the end I think what matters most is not him but you know I think I just think it yeah. Part of me wants to see it burn to the ground though.

[00:30:57] Like I know I agree on. I because he’s still traveling out there and he has because he’s so likable and travelled so much he could literally quit his job live wherever he wanted and he would have just friends and couches to stay on the rest of his traveling wandering time any time you you mention him in any kingdom all they say oh wait. Can’t wait. He was back and I’m thinking if any of you people like I want to see like it’s one of the few things where I would chase it doggedly like just say you know like I don’t trust that the elders would ever help me anymore. You know they said they would I think it’s me. If I have to track him down and blast him and I could find his nephew on Instagram and just like I’ve told a few people where if if he didn’t know that when he went back to talk to you. It’s nice. I heard this about you were you know like I don’t know if that ever happened but a guy who travels like he does and him and the way he invites people to do things and the charisma and everything. I really don’t see him being a person who only did this to one person. Yeah. The you know the evidence the circumstantial evidence does not look good. I just I just don’t know what to say. I don’t want to chase this guy.

[00:32:24] Yeah that’s where things like that when I told the elders here even like lately as a social person I said well we had an issue come up and I went and talked to them about it and I said it’s the same stuff all over same stuff over because you know there was a situation that happened we got wind of it. We tried to alert them even though that this fellowship person that’s a scary thing where you say this is happening in your hall and they say you’re bitter we’re not going to hear your opinion because they can just broad stroke. It doesn’t matter. And when I went in I heard basically the guy was on the platform. I said he’s up there right now. So I stayed up to the meeting those cats are heroes. It’s the same garbage over and over and over like people you like a slap on the wrist nothing ever happens it’s like CNN and then that’s when they said wait wait wait. What tell us what the what do you mean with that. And so I called them this is what happened they said he never told us that. So right away I kind of said for their sake I was glad that they didn’t know that at least yeah. But then I went back to talk like well we’ll help you try and find him and when we left here we put this out and we can tell you this much we put on his publisher card like a little red flag that said shows an unusual interest in the young men and the congregation you know and a sense of that will follow him where he goes. Is there any way to follow him where he goes to know where he is like what if it doesn’t happen in a congregation.

[00:33:38] What if it’s some non witness kid that’s never going to approach an elder. So you won’t have a second witness like that and they’re like Well as you know good point you know that like. And they said well we will try and help you find them which I’m sure shut me up you know and got me out of their face. But I don’t know that it will ever really be done unless I do it myself and then the question of was it worth it. Where do I put my efforts that I feel. How much time do I want to invest just to get vengeance versus justice kind of thing. Well and I don’t know because it’s not just it’s not even just vengeance versus justice. It’s I’m sure you on some level want to protect the other kids other young people out there as well. You know. So I don’t I don’t know. I mean you’re essentially being put in a place as an investigator and you’re not necessarily equipped to do. I had my chance and I’m told them you’re you go home and I’ll when you as you though even at that I mean even if you went to the elders it would have been your word versus his. And he wasn’t going to cop to it. That’s true. And so even if you had done everything you could have in the in the moment unfortunately there are people out there that are very good doing very evil things ands I’m not saying it shouldn’t be pursued but I’m just saying that sometimes they are good enough at the games they play.

[00:35:37] To where they are ahead of where their victims would naturally be developmentally as far as trying to play that game with them to beat them. And I think that you know you know maybe you can go talk to you know like a real investigator or you know maybe you can go to the local police and talk to an investigator and say look you know how could I. Is there any way that I could because I’m worried that this is continuing to happen. How could this be pursued. Is there any way I could get information from someone or something I could do. I don’t know. I mean that’s a long shot. Sure. No. And that’s the thing that I don’t know. Like for me there’s there’s whether or not I have a form of recourse. I wanted someone to believe me. And then the thing was I went and I told the elders like of course of course when I went in I told the elders they said Oh we we we never had we never told us that David will look back the records because we thought we had talked to you and I said no because I came to the meeting and I said Well did he talk to you. Because I was surprised to still hear him commenting. I figure at least you would have a proof and been able to say he shouldn’t be allowed some privileges. But here he is current thing and I thought like he didn’t tell them anything and then I came to the others and I said What did he tell you in this very careful like elderly like we’re handling it. But he told us there was a closeness that he got misconstrued.

[00:37:13] And I thought OK so like. OK. So that’s what he told them. Got it. And maybe I felt like even that that was something I didn’t it raise a ruckus about. So he gave them at least they had a conversation where I just mean not putting a stop to it mean that it was a closeness misconstrued. I didn’t think so and I have the assertiveness now to say no that’s wrong. But the thing was I felt like no one came to me and I told this to the elders in the recent revisit of this like I was mad that none of you came to me no one whatever. I said where was my side. How come. How was I represented in his confession that shows something that I was OK like whether or not like David. How are you doing with all this. We know you’re disfellowshipped but it sounds like an awful thing that happened but I just felt like these guys and that’s the thing about where I live the kingdom how I’ve been. They literally knew my parents which had issues. So it’s like easy to just write me off as all David’s from that family tree and they’ve known me since I was a baby. And everything I’ve ever done has probably been Dragonair front of these guys the last 25 years Samael there’s I’m pretty sure with a few scenarios up then up and down. But I feel like I’m too easy for them to just write off because they’re familiar with it. And it was like you know just somebody like I don’t know I don’t even know what I wanted.

[00:38:34] I just felt I was ultimately they don’t they. They weren’t interested in pursuing it. No bungled situation after bungled situation after a bungled situation is all I have ever seen from these particular elders. And so it was for me like no and I’m thinking oh you’re telling me Jehovah has the pulse on his fingers and this kind of situation at least his way out of his control. I started to really have doubts that I thought there’s no way that he’s God or something was blocking his holy spirit from these people because this is just aren’t acceptable. There’s this God would be real like oh how appalled at what’s going to be like. Yeah but it’s a lot to take in your rally and like you said you’d go swings you have moments of nothing but heart and then you have moments of bitterness and you just say you know what like outside you I believe you. So I don’t I don’t you know I think those people are above their grade. You know they’re not yeah they’re not. It’s not within them to to to be that person. Jehovah’s Witnesses it seems like something that I’ve noticed is that honestly empathy has been stripped from them. They do not own empathy. They do not know what empathy is. They are so narcissistic and so caught up in their own things that they do not have the ability to take the perspective of anyone else. And which is I mean an easy definition of a narcissist is someone that cannot take the perspective of anyone else. And I mean I know I was like that for a long time.

[00:40:23] I had those tendencies. I was made like that. Honestly I was the product of two narcissists and raised in an environment full of narcissus and the organization strips your feelings that strips your humanity. And that’s why they can’t tolerate they can’t listen to other people’s perspectives. They have to call you an apostate. And they have to make you evil because they can’t listen to what you have to say it threatens the and’s systematically. It appears just this is just my armchair psychological professional opinion. Systematically they strip good human beings and they attract not great human beings who are Narcissus and they strip their empathy and basic humanity from them bit by bit over time. And then when they’re presented with something like what happened to you they can only think of themselves themself. The organization for Jehovah’s name in the reproach it would bring. And they cannot see you as a hurting human being that has come before them and address you as such. Yeah they don’t have the emotional tools. It has been taken from them and it’s a very sad thing that results in a lot of people being hurt. And I know that if I had continued in their religion or culture if I had continued in it as dead as I was inside I wish I could have been that old. Now listen to me now listen to my podcast. I am not that person that is not who I started in this world to be Jehovah’s Witnesses absolutely robbed me of that part of my humanity and it’s only six seven years to get it back. That’s amazing.

[00:42:38] It’s amazing to put it so eloquently like just like it’s what they do. It’s what opened my eyes which I think is why I can present it like that because it’s what I saw it was the thing that woke me up was whoa there isn’t any love here. These people are mean. They’re mean to the people they go to the door and knock on this person’s door and then say nasty hateful things about that person when they leave or want to live in that person’s house because it’s a nice house when Armageddon comes and kills them and their family they can’t even have any feeling for that person that they just talked to at the door. They just want their freaking house. How gross is that. Yeah. And the funny thing is I’ve never like to even hear that. Now I’m instantly appalled. I’ve heard that 10000 times before. You know and it did it upon me that then that is a shocking epiphany to realize that I probably once shared in such banter like ah it just that’s really I don’t know. It feels like someone you don’t know or recognize but like looking at old photos when you had maybe you know what all that hair got. Who is that young guy. Whatever it may be 50 years from now. Something totally unrecognizable. Yeah. It’s terrifying. I mean we clean houses and we clean nice homes. And I couldn’t have been standing on the doorstep of one of those people that we clean for one of these genuine nice people that we’ve gotten to know over all these years.

[00:44:28] And I could have gone up to their door with my little suit on my pretenses of love and presented them with a watchtower and awake magazine and maybe they weren’t interested and maybe they turned maybe they were having a bad day and turned me down kind of curtly or they just you know turned me down period and I could have walked away and wiped the dust off my feet. Gone my way. And you know just you know screw them they don’t want to hear this whatever it ends. Or just you know walked away and said well they’ll feel differently and when Armageddon comes won’t they. No sir. Those horrible things we used to say to ourselves. And those are nice people. And all I could have seen was oh they have a nice house and maybe when Jehovah kills them at Armageddon I can live there what an awful thing to even think. Yeah I hear they actually literally utter it at times walking away from a door. And I mean if that just doesn’t show them what they do to people. I mean to me that’s it. In a nutshell they completely strip you of your ability to see other human beings as human beings. They rob you of your ability to see your own self as a human being. And so you have no empathy for others you don’t have it for yourself either. And then you blame yourself for everything. I want to thank you for listening to David’s story today. Please subscribe so that you can get all of these stories automatically as they’re released. Each time please also show David and other support by going to my Web site.

[00:46:08] It’s shunned podcast dot com and if you go to the episodes page there you can leave a comment for any of the people who are telling their story. They can not only read but they can also respond to your comments. So just go to shunned podcasts dot com and go to the episodes page and you’ll see an individual post for each story and you can reply and comments on those stories. You can also find links to things on there that have helped each person as they were waking up and leaving the cult. If you want to hear my personal story you can listen to a podcast called this J.W. life or go to the Web site. This J.W. life. And that was my personal story. It’s a nine part series. And you can if you’re not familiar with the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses you can really learn a lot there about how they function what they teach. Alongside my personal story one final way to show support is to leave a review on iTunes. Just leaving a five star review leaving your personal comments. You know whatever it is that that impacted you this helps other people to find the podcast so that they can get the help that they might need as well. Now normally I release a new podcast at the beginning of every month. But coming up in March the beginning of the month happens to be my wife and I it’s our 18th anniversary so we will be celebrating that. And I’ve also spent a lot of time working on David’s story. So what I’m going to do is actually I’m going to skip.

[00:48:01] There will not be an episode at the beginning of March. And I know that may may be disappointing for some but I need to get some time. I’ve got a lot of people that want to be interviewed by the way. If you want to see your story go to shun podcast dot com click on the Contact page there fill out that form I’ll get it and we can work on getting your story together as well. But I need to get some interviews done so that I have more content so that I have more episodes to put out there along with the fact that you know my anniversary is coming up. We will be spending some time with that. It’s also just a busy time of year at the beginning of the year with taxes and everything else in our business. So yeah there will be no episode for March. I hate to break the news to you but there will be. We will have episodes again at the beginning of April and that will allow me some time to get some done so that I can maybe even get a little bit ahead. That would be nice. That’s kind of how I started. But other things have come up so I hate to break that news to you but we’ll see you again in April. And as I always end all these episodes love others do no harm and go be happy.