Episodes

Brenda Is Shunned By The FLDS.mp3

[00:00:12] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we get to hear stories from people that have been silenced by controlling religious today we’re going to hear from Brenda a woman that is shunned by the FLDS or if you’re unfamiliar the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints the FLDS are a fundamentalist group of religion that are more often known as the Mormons. They’re just a subset of that. They came to be early in the 20th century as a split from the Mormons occurred and they are known for their practice of polygamy which is one of the biggest reasons they split off originally the headquarters was located in Short Creek in Arizona. You’re going to hear many references to short Korek by Brenda. That’s the area she was from short Cricks Short Creek in doing some research and it appears that they have little colonies spread out in different areas of Arizona Utah North Dakota South Dakota Colorado Texas and even British Columbia. According to Wikipedia it is estimated that there are between six and 10000 members and they may even be developing colonies in Oklahoma California and the Mexican state of Sonora. I was a little bit familiar with who the LDS were. I’d seen shows on TV about them at times most notably about their leader Warren Jeffs. Warren Jeffs is their leader even today from prison as he’s serving a sentence of life plus 20 years for felony sexual assault.

[00:01:46] I couldn’t help but be reminded of the show on Hulu called The Handmaid’s Tale as I was listening to Brenda tell her story and apparently this struck a chord with Brenda during the interview so I’m sure there are a lot of things there and she will address during the interview that that are reminiscent you know sadly there are still places in this world even in the developed world where women are still treated this way. This story is amazing. I know that a lot of my listeners are former Jehovah’s Witnesses because you know that’s my background and this all kind of sprang from that. I know that what you’re about to hear is more extreme than what we lived as Jehovah’s Witnesses. But if you look back you know behind it all all the methods and manipulations are very familiar. There’s a lot of crossover that the extremity might be different but the tools and techniques used are often the same. For others this might just be a look in the lives that maybe they led as former members of theF.L. to ask themselves or you know maybe you’ve never been affiliated with any of this and it’s just opening your eyes and and shedding a light on something that that other people are going through and that you will be able to see in the future and have compassion for. So let’s go ahead and get into the interview. Let’s meet Brenda My name is Brendan Nicholson. I am 45 years old. I was an F LDS member. And now I am shamed. All right so then how was it that you came to be in the LDS my parents were actually members of the mainstream LDS church before I was born. And then my father met a man through his job in Southern California.

[00:03:45] He was working at the Boeing plant who was a member of theF.L. the S and through that he found out about the fundamentalist polygamist group there in southern Utah. And I can’t explain how they decided that but somehow he convinced my mother and they decided to convert to that and they moved us to from California to Utah. When I was a baby and so I wasn’t born into it but that’s I mean I didn’t remember anything before that that’s the only life I ever knew. Yeah. So yeah that is quite a quite a feat to I wonder how many people are converted into LDS. Is that something that that happens very often. So about the same year that my family converted another family converted out of Southern California. Also we had no connection with them. It was the Nicholson family and they had also been members of the LDS church. Only John Nicholson the father had somehow this is another story of an Monch Charlie sure how they worked that out. He had taken on a second wife that he met while they were still members of the LDS church so they got excommunicated and then he found out about the fundamentalists. And they also moved from California and joined the LDS and there were a couple other families that I knew of growing up that had converted around the same time. But as far as I know there were very few if any who converted beyond that time. So that was in the early 70s. They aren’t extremely welcoming of new people. You know they aren’t they don’t have a lot of trust for people.

[00:05:52] And the reality is when you if you lay out to people what they’re going to be required to give up there’s not a whole lot of people that are interested. There aren’t a lot of men that are looking for a second or third wife but they’re not really anxious to give up everything to get out. You know there’s other groups to join in a ways to go about that. So there’s not a lot of people that work. Got you. All right so then what was your growing up in this. What was the world view that this LDS religion gave you. I mean I know a little bit about it you know from some research I’ve done online you know Wikipedia and things like that but you know how did it make you see the world. Well basically we were taught that you know the few thousand members of the. At that point when I was growing up we just called it the work or the priesthood work. It didn’t become theF.L. and that stands for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. But we didn’t call it that until I was a little bit older. I think like in the 80s. But basically we were taught that the people who were members of our religion were the most favored of all God’s children. We had been brought there and preserved the entire foundation of the United States was put in place by God to provide a place where we could live our religion in freedom.

[00:07:32] You know a lot of people benefited from that but we were the focus of every historical event led was either inconsequential or on purpose to provide the way for us to live polygamy and follow God’s laws anyone who was not a member of our little group were either gentiles which was people who were never part of the group or didn’t ever believe or apostates and apostates or people who used to believe and leave and they were the absolute worst people in existence. They were considered traitors to God. And the worst people you could spend time around but even the Gentile world we were told they were out to get us. They were all under the control of the devil and the devil would use them in any way he could to stop the work of God to come after us the laws that were put in place were through the inspiration of the devil even laws like underage marriage child labor. That was the devil trying to keep us from being able to teach our kids to work you know and put them in the factories and whatever. So I had a very basically a lot of fear. Everything was there. Everyone was out to get us. The government wanted to come in and tear apart our families and throw our fathers in jail. And we were just had to hold on until the great distractions can wipe half awake. Wow. It’s so it’s so fascinating you know. You know I’m an ex Jehovah’s Witness and a lot of my audience were former members of that faith and so much of this rings true because you know we went through a lot of the same things that you know you had this evil world out there that you were to be in fear of you know fear ruled everything.

[00:09:31] And you know the same definitions you know I am an apostate according to Jehovah’s Witnesses the exact same things. You know we were to be in submission to the rules and laws and dictates of the world governments. But as long as it didn’t go against what they said was God’s law which was cause was Jehovah’s Witnesses law. Yes. Of course their own brand of it. So it’s it’s really fascinating to hear the similarities and just the way that these different so-called spin control and manipulate people through the exact same tactics. So you know there may be differences within the courts. Yeah but when I was in high school Warren Jeffs I remember Warren Jeffs tale telling us how there’s all these different false religions out there. And every one of them thinks they have the truth but how lucky and fortunate and blessed we were to really be the only ones with the truth. And I remember that little doubt popping up in my mind thinking that they all are saying the same thing. So how do I know. But you know everything you know all of the people you know are in this group so you might as well stick with it because what other choice do you have right. Now for you you were even coming into the room. Obviously you were a baby. But how did that impact you you know growing up you know it’s not you’re new into this group. So how do they view you or did you have a hard time kind of getting fitting in. Well when I was younger I mean my mother homeschooled us. We were extremely poor. You know for years my mother didn’t even have a driver’s license.

[00:11:38] And so being outsiders we grew up in Salt Lake. We just lived in a house in a normal neighborhood among the Gentiles. But we weren’t supposed to associate with the Gentiles so we didn’t fit into the world that we lived in. But I also came to understand that we didn’t really fit in to the world of the religion because when I started school at 12 I went to seventh grade. I found out that most of the people the people they already had their groups they had their their little and what it was is these girls that were my age. The people they played with were their own sisters you know they had sisters their same age from other mothers or they were friends with their aunts or their nieces because you have these huge families and you’re all having babies at the same time. And so they all had their family groups they had their friends they had the people they did with that their parents trusted. And there really was no place for an outsider to fit into that world. So that was hard. Also I did make some friends there were a few other families that were smaller families couples that only also had one mother our house only had one mother. They had fewer children and weren’t as integrated in these huge elite names that I did make friends with. But it was quite eye opening to me when I started school. I got put into a grade of a classroom was 24 students.

[00:13:20] There are 12 girls and boys and I was so excited I was going to have 11 best friends because we were all saints and we all grown up the same way and you know the whole religion teaches love and acceptance and we’re all equals. And it didn’t take me very long to realize that basically there is a wide gap between the principles of the gospel that we’re taught and what people were actually living and that was a real wakeup call for me. I had spent my life up to that point just hearing the stories going to church and listening to what was said and believing that this was really how it was because I had nothing to compare it with. So it was a lonely childhood I guess. I mean we had a large family ourselves. But it was. It was hard. I know my mother was always under a lot of stress and I honestly grew up not believing that my parents loved me. I mean I knew they they cared about me but I didn’t feel like they truly loved me and I and I spent a lot of time looking forward to the day when I’d get married because then somebody would love me because God would tell them they had to love me and that is interesting. You know first of all you see that in these cults it seems like there’s always cults within the cults really you know almost all of them are very klick ish and they they all I mean it’s human nature anyway to kind of segment off into groups is just what humans do as part of communities but you just see how it really gets down to the micro level in these cults when you know families become their own calls and Jehovah’s Witnesses had the same thing.

[00:15:19] We didn’t we didn’t have it nearly like what you’re talking about. I mean you’re happier you have an extreme version of that but it yes big families tended to dominate inside the organization. And it was very hard you know as an outsider to to make friends ever feel like you really fit in. And then you have even things like you know inside your own family like you said you felt this lack of love yeah. Well in another part of human nature is that I think we all tend to gravitate towards certain people. And so the more children you have. I mean my father had some definite favorites and it wasn’t me you know. Yeah. And so even you have that. And then you go out to the bigger world where you’re not a favorite and you don’t settle. And when you’re your life and your very salvation depends on being accepted and included. It’s really devastating to feel like you. You don’t know how to change enough or what you need to do to finally break into that inner circle. And it’s so hard because you have these inner circles and really everyone like you is that even with your parents. This disconnect you felt with the ultimately their love their highest love is for the church it’s for them. It’s not. It can’t be for you because you have already given that to something else. Jehovah’s Witnesses. And I’m probably going to butcher this but they had a principle of a gap a love. It was a word you’d think it was in the Greek scriptures and it was to be this it was a love based on principle.

[00:17:22] And when you think about a love based on principle it’s kind of like this. It’s kind of an unfeeling love it’s kind of utilitarian it’s like well you know I gave birth to you therefore I must love you right. It’s very scripted. There’s no real emotion wrong or humanity to it. This is the rule you must love me right now that’s not true love. Right it’s a very dead love. It’s and it’s very unfortunate so no I don’t have to ask your parents do you. Do you have any ideas. Like what. What do you think. If you had to speculate and if you don’t have an answer that’s fine too. But what do you think may have been behind them seeking this out. In other words like a lot of people will seek out very controlling religions because they feel out of control in their life and they’re looking for some sort of a structure that they think maybe will fix their problems. Was there was there something going on. Was there trauma maybe in your parent’s past or something that you think kind of attracted them to as far as I know. I don’t know of anything along those lines. My father was raised very much in the LDS church. Most of that side of the family still are to some degree or another still LDS. My mother was actually raised tend to think I think they were Lutheran but they never really I mean like in name only. She doesn’t remember when I told her she didn’t remember going to church or whatever. She married my father.

[00:19:09] Two weeks after she turned 18 she told me that her parents were not in favor of her marrying my father and so they just waited till after she was 18 and they couldn’t stop her and she also confided in me at one point when I was in high school a really long story but it came down to that she told me that her father had molested her when she was a child that she had at some point told her mother and her mother denied it and basically she was in trouble for having even made such accusations. Looking back on it now I think that that has shaped and coloured her life to a great degree. I mean I’ve learned a lot about the effects that being subjected to sexual abuse have on a child’s mind and on your entire life. Beyond that I when I was younger I thought well my parents were so amazingly faithful. I don’t know if I could have done that. You know having the freedom of of being a gentile and choosing to subject myself to this kind of life especially for my mother. But as time went on and then like it was after I got married my father was finally given his first plural wife. And she is like a year older than me and I remember how weird that was that my father was married to and sleeping with a girl because of caution on my eye and in my eyes she’s just this other girl that I went to school with his younger daughter. I’m the second oldest. My sisters four years older than me. And it was just so weird.

[00:20:57] And that was the closest I had been to seeing polygamy in real life I’d never been close to anyone when they got a new wife. I knew families that had two or three mothers but it’s been that way forever. And after watching him and the way he conducted himself the way he treated his younger wives and what he did to my mother. I have a hard time not thinking that he was all in it for the idea of I can sleep with a bunch of women and say God. And you know growing up in the LDS faith they already had the concept that polygamy was part of their religion and would be lived in the next life so why would it be wrong to go ahead and jump start that now. Yeah and don’t they do the wise you didn’t it’s how old was the first wife or second wife that he had gone well then when he married her. I’m trying to think she must have been in her early 20s in the AFL. There were like these waves they would go where they girls were getting married earlier and earlier and earlier when I was I don’t know maybe 11 or 12. I remember there was a girl that I became aware of that she had gotten married when she was 13 and I remember thinking oh that would be so nice. I’d only have a few more years and I’d be out of my father’s house.

[00:22:27] And then you’d have all these this rash of marriages and they seemed like they’ve got younger and younger girls and then something would happen and the leaders would decide well we’re not doing that and then they’d wait in the next group of girls didn’t start getting married until they were 19 20 21. You know they had been looked at as extreme old maid at one point and then it would go through the cycle again. So after I was married so my younger sisters didn’t get married until they were 20 21 and then it started working its way back down. You know by the time I left I heard about these young girls were getting married at 12 or 18 and it wasn’t something that had never happened before. So it wasn’t like a huge shock to me. At the same time by then I had a daughter who was that age and it terrified me to think of her being taken and given to some old man in a marriage and to be completely honest I kept thinking Yeah I know that they’re marrying these little children. That’s really what they were. But I’m sure that they’re not consummating the marriage. They’re just trying to get these girls into these faithful good girls into a good man’s home. So when everything comes apart and the government comes in to destroy us they’ll be protected I had no idea. Yeah. Yeah. Well you know because it’s it’s hard to. It really is hard to wrap your mind around. Just in doing research you know a little bit before I got on the call I was on your blog maybe which I’ll link to in the show notes but I think there was in one of your recent shows some images of a think she was 12 or 13 year old. Yeah. Yes. She had just turned 12. Yeah.

[00:24:34] And that’s just it’s just. Well it’s a child. Yeah. Yeah. It’s so disturbing. Just. And when you’re when you’re in that and you feel like here and you know that your entire salvation and the salvation of our children and everything in your life depends on you being faithful. You just can’t let your mind go to imagining these men that stand up before you in church and that you trust would do that to a child. You look at your own child and think oh no these are good men. They would never do that. They just put it in them from that. You can’t even comprehend that you just don’t let yourself think. No no no no. You know I think anyone in a court has a lot of cognitive dissonance and you know something like that you would it would be very hard to wrap your brain around your emotions around the fact that that was going on. Because it’s so natural Yeah. It’s a survival tactic really. Yeah can’t allow yourself to think that because it’s so contrary to you know it throws up all kinds of red flags. You and you get to think about it. So you just try not to think about it.

[00:25:46] What I read in maybe maybe this is an all of the because from what I guess from what I read the LDS Church has communities in lots of different cities not just in one particular area but that they were so so obviously because there are you know there’s a 50/50 chance of having a boy or a girl there’s going to be a point at which there’s not enough girls to go around for all of the men that would be in the organization. So they they go the boys at some points in the competition they do of course they never they never put it that way of course. You know we love these boys we would never send my way. But they choose to not follow the rules and we can’t let them be her to corrupt our innocent children whatever you like throwing a football or watching television or something like that. Clearly things just don’t kick them out. Absolutely yeah. You know it’s the boys that just get accused of that. The Lord revealed to the prophet that you had an immoral thought about a girl. Boom. Out you go. Oh wow. And you know there’s no way for you to to argue against that. Because what you’ve been taught your whole life is that’s God telling his prophet that you did that. So instead you internalize it and try to rack your brain. When did I do that. Was it this. And you start becoming your own worst critic and you just yourself implode. You can’t think you can’t function. It’s true. You know I’ve done some research and the whole world over within one percentage point. Birth rates are about 50 50 50. Right. So Mormon fundamentalism. You know Joseph Smith taught a man had to have a quorum of at least three wives to be an apostle I believe there are some different positions in the priesthood hierarchy that you have to have at least be a polygamist or have three wives or more.

[00:27:58] And to get to the highest degree of the celestial kingdom in the next life you have to have at least three wives and you think OK well that’s their beliefs but you have to then step back a minute and think okay that means that two thirds of the males born into these closed societies will not have a girl available for them to even have one wife. They’re all being taken right. And then you know I know one man who has 27 wives. I know my father had three. Warren Jeffs ended up with something like 80. And somewhere I wrote about that too where I listed how many of the wives when he married them they were under 18 you know and by age you’d have Hower. I think there are 20 23 of them under age marrying girls off they’re not old enough to vote. They can’t even have any say in their life in the politics that surround them. Not that we were allowed to do that anyway. How many of them they thought he married before they were old enough to drive you have to kind of put it in perspective in your mind. These girls were so trapped not just mentally and spiritually by the religion they were brought up in but by the laws because society as a whole does not see people as at that age as responsible enough to take on adult responsibilities or they are being married off to men three or four times their age. And they don’t have any rights when it comes down. Yeah that’s horrible. And then even when so I know Warren Jeffs is in prison. Yes.

[00:29:45] I don’t know was for 30 something years or something like that. And I don’t know how old he is. So he’s getting close to 60 I believe and they arrested him in August of 2006. So. And the other thing to mention here is that at least by the time I had left and I think it’s still the same no more marriages have been performed. He wouldn’t allow anyone else to do that. Oh it’s been 11 years. You’ve got members out there. These girls that are in their 30s with no no hope of ever being able to you know for them. They believe that being married and having children is their only value of ever having that happen. You’re not allowed to flirt with anybody you’re not allowed to have feelings. And these are grown women and men who are trapped in this environment and so on the one hand I’ve thought well that’s good. No more underage girls are getting married off. But they’ve torn people apart so much in the way the whole thing is organized or however you want to put it I have a very hard time believing that there isn’t huge amounts of abuse going on. You don’t have to have a spiritual marriage or anything to abuse people who you know or some pretty horrific rumors I can’t I can’t prove it’s true. But it fits.

[00:31:26] I mean with everything that I saw the stories I’ve heard the things I know that were going on that men were doing with you know you’ve got these men that have a handful of wives and they’re still molesting their daughters when they’re told they can’t have sex with their wives anymore they’re not going to because they know that that wife is also going to report. She understands that if they try the wife will tell on them now but you are going to create this hyper sexualized culture than for the men yes. And’s the men no longer are having sex with their wives because they’re their wives belong to Warren Jeffs now or he said Now sex so if you if you don’t qualify if you don’t follow the rules well enough then you get kicked out. I mean there’s been so many men that were sent away to repent and maybe you go and some by some miracle you figure stuff out enough that they allow you to come back but as soon as you get sent away then you’ve lost priesthood. And if you don’t have priesthood you have no right to hold onto your wives or children or your baptism or anything else that the church. You know that’s an ordinance right. So you know it back years ago they were really reorganizing families you know they’d kick a man out and then divide his wives and children up and marry them to other men. Now they don’t shortages. So they have caretakers and you’ll have some men. Sometimes it’s some young boy because you know at 12 you can get the priesthood and you now have more authority than any female so you’ll have your twelve year old boy put in charge of this household of women and children and women. So we left in March of 2012. And my husband and I had been found unworthy. So that meant that he no longer had the priesthood.

[00:33:37] Our marriage was no longer valid or baptisms we we weren’t members of the church and we were told by Lyle Jeffs in our meeting that now that we were no longer for anyone unworthy more than a handshake with your husband or wife or anyone would be adultery that would classify as adultery. And before long they qualified it even further and he said the handshake had last no more than three seconds. So you’ve got these men who have grown accustomed to having a group of women at their beck and call who are all desperate for some love and attention. They do you know each one of them is totally honed in on him and what he wants and what they can do when favor all of a sudden that’s all stripped away. And he’s not supposed to be doing anything right. So everyone’s desperate to gain their salvation. He knows he can’t go to his wives even if they’re all still living in the same house. They’re no longer allowed to do anything. If he does something with that wife he’s a huge risk even suggesting of her reporting in her letters that she has to send in that he was trying to be immoral because she’s got to confess or she could be sent out. He’s now in trouble. He understands that his wives know what is and isn’t OK. So instead they turned to these children who have been raised with no education. They don’t know how their own bodies work. They don’t know that they have any rights and they can easily because they’ve been taught to revere men and priesthood tell them the Lord told me this is what we’re supposed to.

[00:35:27] This is a preparation for the day when you’re when we’re allowed to have marriages again. All that kind of stuff I’ve actually heard stories of men doing these things meant yes. And these children don’t have a clue. They don’t feel like it’s right. But it got to a point where nothing happened in our lives felt right. Anymore you couldn’t use that as a determination. Do you know if you don’t yeah they take away or you trust in your own your own thoughts and feelings. That was something that we were taught to not trust our own hearts because the hardest treacherous who can know it. And so you know when you when you can strip a person from their own their own internal conscience essentially you can insert your influence to become their conscience. So it sounds like that’s what’s happened here. Absolutely yeah. Oh there’s a lot of stories I could tell but even if I didn’t give names if the people involved heard they’d know I was talking about and that they would not go well for me. It’s it’s sickening. It really is. And it was hard enough when I was part of it. But after I stepped away. So when I left I actually honestly believed that Warren Jeffs was still the most paramount on earth because they told they drilled into us everyday that he had perfected himself sitting there in prison and that we the people were the ones at fault for him still being held there because we were supposed to you know once we became worthy of God’s blessings.

[00:37:15] He would deliver a Warren from prison and we’d been told that each one of us held a key and we all had to be able to be worthy to unlock the prison that would let him free. And it was really hard for me because once I realized that there were no marriages with him in prison I had the realization that as long as he has in prison I didn’t have to fear that my husband was going to walk through the door with some young girl as a plural wife. And it’s really really hard to truly exert all the fervency of your soul when you feel like you’re praying against your own best interest. If he was there I was safe did I really want him out yet right. I wanted one more day of knowing that I was the only person in my husband’s life that I didn’t have to watch him revolve in love with some other woman or girl wrote and about it. But it does something to your psyche to feel like I I’m so weak that I’m not willing to live my own religion that I claim I believe in and my unwillingness to suffer a little bit or sacrifice is keeping our prophet trapped in prison. And it’s horrible the guilt that you feel. Isn’t that amazing how these people or groups these people who have victimized so many people somehow flip it all around so where they are the poor abused victim. It’s absolutely it’s mindblowing. So how. Let’s look at how how this kind of like develops so like you’re a kid and you’re in this organization this cult.

[00:39:12] How is it that they are drilling this into your head you know like what was your life like at home at school when you did eventually go to school or in the church like how did it how did all of that kind of coalesce to to strip you of all of that how did it indoctrinate you. What was that indoctrination process. Well you first of all any time you get involved in a culture or even some of the way a lot of the religions work they work hard to make sure that your religious dogma surrounds you in every area of your life. So like I say we didn’t do much with other people. When I was growing up you know until I was twelve or so. So we had our own. We were supposed to have our own Sunday schools. My father would read Bible stories or Book of Mormon stories and they drill into you know this is what happens to the wicked and this is how God feels about those who don’t follow his rules. And we you know they use fear. Absolutely. You know that we’d been told that the end of the world as we knew it was going to come on or before the year 2000. So you have that at home. And then you go to church and you hear that a whole lot more. And then I started school. They make they have their own private schools. They leave. Fill them with their teachers and our curriculum was 100 percent had to be approved and run through Warren Jeffs and his father Rulon Jeffs who was the prophet at that time.

[00:41:00] You know I had our books had pictures cut out of them or they buy one book and alter the pictures and black things out and then run off copies so that you didn’t see pictures of kids in short sleeves or girls doing things girls weren’t supposed to do. You know girls don’t have jobs they didn’t have careers. You were supposed to be a mother. The only and greatest aspiration a girl had was to become a worthy mother in Zion. That was it. And in school they had a shoot. I can’t remember I think it was like half hour 45 minute class our morning devotional that started we opened the school day with Warren Jeffs was the principal and he taught most high school classes. And so you’d have that well back up a little bit. We had been told they printed sermons of Leroy Johnson. He was the prophet before Rulon Jeffs whose prophet when I was a child and we had been told that every man should own a set of those and that they should have classes every morning and every night and read a sermon to their families and you’d just keep going through the books so you’d start your day. You’re supposed to have your personal prayers then you’d go have family prayer and listen to a sermon you had prayers at your meals you’d go to school. It opened with prayer. You sat through 45 minutes or however long of Warren Jeffs reading sermons. We were assigned to read two chapters of the book of mormon every night write out a lesson and then we discuss it and more in class the next day. You know you had prayer for lunch you had prayer for to end the school day. You had prayer when you got home.

[00:42:49] And everywhere you turned there were men in suits generally telling you the same story. Turning your heart to the prophet your wicked if you look at the boys or the boys look at the girls you’re supposed to treat each other like snakes dangerous snakes because they had arranged marriages they couldn’t have you liking a boy your own age. Some old men might want you and that would mess the whole system up. No Robert he isn’t who he really was. I remember yeah and I remember as I got older seeing things on the news or whatever where people were saying that the winner and the FLC asked for just chat and I was so offended. How dare they. How dare they say that. I had my choice and I chose to obey. And now I look at it and like you know that’s how blind Schley making them. They make you convinced to fight against your own survival and that you’re happy about it. You know it’s it’s amazing the similarities between all the. Is it so amazing that they that they can strip you’re your basic desires and humanity away from you like that. And then at the same time make you feel like you have your basic desires and matter. Exactly. It’s amazing because we did this thing being I mean I used to get offended when people would say people use it’s all Jehovah’s Witnesses. They would tell me that you’re brainwashed and brainwashed. I can I can leave the day if I can do anything I want. And it’s you know exactly. It’s so crazy.

[00:44:30] And look I go wow I so brainwashing you an old rain. I was a broken watch. And it’s it really is incredible the amount of power they have. It is the further it the more generations I’ve been doing some study about generational trauma and basically well it’s hard because for me I grew up in the Gentile world to some degree. There was our little family there the 13 houses on the street. I grew up in was my world. And we were surrounded by gentiles and we had things almost everyday to reassure us that the things we were being taught was true. We had some families on our street that refused to let their children talk to us because we were those gross polygamists. There was World was wicked. They were shunning us when we were really the righteous ones. So growing up. So then you didn’t. I guess I always thought that the Avoda as essentially had many campaigns that would you want to call it and that everyone lived kind of within those walls then that’s not true. No. When I was growing up we had of course the short creek we always call it short Creek. It’s the twin towns down on the border of southern Utah and northern Arizona. It’s actually the Tulsidas Hilldale Arizona side as Colorado City and it was a community. The church owned all the property. Every place every home built there every building everything was consecrated was church property which meant the church had the right to kick you out if they felt like you weren’t following the rules even if you built your own house.

[00:46:19] You turned it over to the church and they could take it. Everybody was okay with that because for years and years that was understood we all agreed with it but it never happened. You just grow up in your house and it was kind of like a formality. Yeah that’s Thurbert nothing’s ever gonna happen with it. So because the church owned all the property they also controlled who lived there so it was only people who were members of the church there weren’t walls around it. Not physical walls but those psychological walls are far more powerful. Oh yeah yeah. You said there were gentiles on your screen gentiles were outsiders right. Yes but I grew up in the Salt Lake Valley I didn’t grow up in community so there is the short Creek group. There was the salt lake group which there are fewer of us but we’re just scattered throughout the valley. Rulon Jeffs had a big piece of property there at the mouth of Little Cottonwood Canyon. We used his home for the school. That’s where we had our meetings. It had a big wall around it and of course we always looked at it as being somewhat symbolic of the protection that that the church and God gave us that kept the bad people out we were safe there. And then there’s also a community in just over the border up north in Canada and they had more of their own community as well. But for those of us who grew up in Salt Lake we did grow up you know surrounded by the outside world.

[00:47:58] We went to the store with all the gentiles we know but in a way that actually was worse because you were in contact with it. It made it where you. You didn’t trust the people because you were taught to never trust them while they were your next door neighbors. I absolutely agree. Jehovah’s Witnesses are allowed to be in. You know we had normal quote normal lives. You know we went to public schools at times or we you know works in the world or whatever and you know we even went to you know football games or basketball games or to the park or whatever you know around other people. Yeah. But you were taught to see things in such a way that it always reinforced your beliefs you would see some kid acting out and oh well there you go see those world kids are not being disciplined they’re not being taught right that. And so yeah it really it really does create that prison of your own your own mind and your own emotions. Yeah. Well when I was a teenager we moved to a different house in a new neighborhood in Salt Lake and I and my younger sister went through the experience of having the old man. I mean I say old he had a son my age he is probably as early forties I have no idea maybe of 30s that we had in my window at night in the summer and that man would go in his room sometimes in his bedroom and flip on the light and be in there totally naked. You knew we were there and it terrified me. He would I mean that was the first time I’d ever seen a naked man especially in that condition. But it was just another reinforcement.

[00:49:54] Oh my word there right. That’s the kind of evil men that live in the world and the devil knew that we were these good girls and so he inspired that man to expose himself to us. And it just it just makes you isolate yourself even further. And there’s been a lot of talk lately about how we need to decriminalize polygamy because it being illegal is why people are isolated. You know these people would love to report abuse but they don’t dare because if they report abuse their dad will go to prison for being a polygamist. But all I can say having grown up in it I have never yet spoken to another person or woman whatever who ever voiced to me that they lived in fear of being prosecuted for polygamy. Never. Not one because it just doesn’t happen anymore. At this point I have had my own feelings. I’ve seen other people where the fear was that we can’t let this be be known what’s going on in our communities because then the world would say that that’s what we are and we’ve got to protect the image of the church and our prophet above all nuns. Oh it is. And I can remember as a Donald when I was living in short Creek later and watching the things going on and and hearing that rhetoric and thinking well what do you mean the world will think that’s who we are. That is who we are. And you think to change it. We’re just seeing it right.

[00:51:35] And the reality is it’s like I was trying to explain to someone so what you’re telling me is that people know that abuse is happening. They won’t report it because they don’t want Uncle whoever or dad to go to prison because they’re polygamists. Otherwise they would report the abuse. Do they not understand that if they report the abuse the guy is going to prison or should go to prison for sexually abusing children. It’s not about that they fear prosecution or persecution for polygamy. Polygamy is unsustainable especially in today’s world it is impossible for one man to support the other one man. I know men like my father even. And that’s a pretty small number. He had three wives. Right. Twenty three children. One man can’t make it can’t work a job that provides that many people with the necessities of life. And that’s you know and that’s looking at the financial end of it that while he’s trying to provide the financial end of life for that many people he’s not there to provide IMO Oceanus support. He’s not connected to those wives and children and a lot of men it’s like you know what when they go home. It’s this nonstop whining. This Wife wants that that wife wants that these kids are a problem and they just don’t know how to deal with it also. They’re happy to be off working. Yes. Yet you isolate yourself for several reasons. One they want to have their own private schools. They don’t want they will never have their children out and free in your world because that would put in their mind the idea that you know things like It’s OK to date it’s OK to wear pants for girls.

[00:53:34] It’s ok all of those things the world the ideas is what they’re protecting their children from. So even if polygamy was legal that’s not going to change. They’re not going to start sending their kids to public school. Warren Jeffs and men like him are not going to march there twelve year old up to the city hall and get a marriage license. None of that is going to change the welfare fraud is going to keep happening. Yes and the mist and the brains of each other aren’t in it. So isn’t it from what I read. So then the husband has one legal wife. Yes. Was in all of the I guess the sister wives then are essentially single mothers. And so then they apply for government assistance and get that and then I guess they all pull it together and yet support the household Exactly. So like you’ll have a man owns a business it’s a very profitable business. He makes a lot of money. That’s how he maintains his house and his fancy truck and all the cars in the House and whatever. He has one legal wife and sometimes they’ll even like send a bunch of young boys to work in one of their companies pull all their hours together and they’re not old enough to work there so they will cut a check in the name of the legal wife even though she never really sets foot in the building. But that way. That’s how they pay for it. It keeps the money out of the hands of these young boys. They’re told that they should do that to help support their father’s family and be good Priester people.

[00:55:14] And so the on his legal wife can show this income they rip. They file their taxes whatever. Then he has all these other wives and they’re groups of children who are being supported by him as far as they’re living in the house he pays for. He pays for their utilities. He makes sure they have a car. He provides their clothing and all of that but they don’t report any of that. They go and they as far as the government looks at it. They’re on equal footing with Mary who is truly a single mother who has to try to take care of her kids her house all those things but they show no income. They claim themselves as single mothers they they don’t report who the father is. Otherwise the father should be good being gone after for child support and that sort of thing. So then you have a house where the man’s bringing in the money you’ve got boys out very often working under age that brings in some more money and then the rest of the family is all on getting the maximum benefits they can as single mothers and children of single mothers who have no income. You mean they don’t have any other name that they don’t have a car. Yeah they all have a bunch of kids. Well I don’t even have a car. Look I have nothing in my name.

[00:56:40] And so they can get cash assistance sometimes and it’s it’s unfair it’s but they feel good about it because all these stupid laws you know that make it so kids can’t go to work we can’t put our kids in a coal mine when they’re 10. Those reps hired by the devil. So it’s OK if you as long as you don’t get caught if you can play the system because the Lord wants us to have the best of everything and the system is evil and ran by the devil anyways so taking them that you know how how can that be bad. Are you taking from the devil systems. Now. I’ve known men who you know they’ve got three wives and they’re not connected financially you know there as far as so you’ll have the man and his legal wife will rack up all the debt they can buy everything they want. File Bankruptcy. During that time the other wives have credit cards and they’re buying things so they still have credit and they’ll go on a cycle where between the three of them and they can each file bankruptcy every seven years. They’re just spending as much money as they can with no intent of paying it back and then filing bankruptcy. So you have a new set of you know you could file bankruptcy as a fan as whoever is bringing in all the credit every two or three years each one of you only doing it every seven. I mean I I remember talking to a man who showing people at the company this fancy new camera he bought. And people like how you can afford that. He’s like well the Lord wants us to have nice things. We’re following his laws and this is what I do. And he didn’t even feel guilty or any kind of shame in telling us all this is what I do. And people say oh wow that’s cool.

[00:58:40] And basically it’s just in so many areas. Every facet of it is unhealthy. Yeah that’s what I was going to say. I mean it seems honestly like I guess I would ask if you were to look back on that life was there are good times. Were there times where were there benefits to in any way were there. Well it was a habit that you look at it differently. Yeah when you’re in the middle of it you see everything from the lens of what you know. I remember as a child thinking Man I wish that we had a whole bunch of mothers because in my mind I’m picturing you know many copies of my mother who didn’t put together in my mind the fact that each of those mothers would then come with that eventually their own group of kids killed my mother was overwhelmed. You know she is trying to solve all of our clothes from scraps and pieces of fabric the outside gentile family members would send she is trying to figure out how to feed us all on next to nothing. She is trying to figure out what bills to pay to try to keep something from being cut off. I know several times we had our power cut off or our water cut off because we couldn’t afford the bill. She would be so tied up and so stressed out and I would think Man Too bad we don’t have more mothers because then I could just go to another mother to help me.

[01:00:18] And you have this idyllic picture in your mind of what polygamy is and you have all these mothers who love you and who will take care of you. So says one great big happy family and besides how awesome would it be to have like sisters that were your best friend that were your own age kids. I grew up lonely I didn’t have anybody my age I didn’t have friends. And so when I started to see the realities of what most if not all the polygamous homes were like. It was shocking to me. You’ve got always simmering under the surface at least under the surface sometimes it breaks into these big fights but that jealousy that competition between youths between mothers and you’ve got you know the man will pick a wife is his favorite. He treats her better the children of the other wives see that their mother is hurt and they hate the kids of that mother that is favored or the mother that gets it has a job and goes and buys her children all new shoes. But father says there’s no money for any of the other children to have shoes. And that causes rivalries and feelings between the wives. And when some other woman comes along and you felt like had a pretty good relationship with your husband and now he favors her and her kids get everything and your kids have been cast aside I’ve watched so many times as women take out their frustrations that they didn’t dare take out on their sister wife on that woman’s children. You treat them and you get popsicles and you only give to your kids. They’re her kids she got stuff before and it creates this hostile environment is very stressful.

[01:02:07] And you’re thinking about the notes in their bedrooms because they can’t deal with each other and the stress and each other’s children. So then you’ve got these hoards of children who really don’t you know they’ve got three four or five mothers but nobody who’s really engaged with them and helping them figure out and navigate life. You’ve got older siblings required to raise their younger siblings and there gets to be some resentment involved. They want to go do something fun instead they’re raising their sister. Why are there other mothers kids for her. You know a lot of people say oh I loved it. We grew up with this huge family. And so yeah there was that I didn’t grow up in a huge family. My mother ended up having ten children which is a pretty big family. You know we are all year. You know I didn’t have anybody my age. My older sister four years older. My next sister was three years younger. And you know there’s a lot of people will say it’s awesome. You know if I want to go on a trip with my husband if he wants to take me somewhere I don’t have to find a babysitter or worry about anything because I just leave my kids home with their other mothers. They don’t have to have their schedule interrupted. Everything is wonderful. But the reality that I witnessed was Yeah husband takes wife number two. He goes out yet the other wives all are jealous. They feel bad.

[01:03:42] They would love to go on a trip but they’re left on and a lot of times they take their frustration and their anger out on the children of that other wife that’s off having a party. And they’ll treat those children poorly or you know I don’t I won’t say that it can’t work and that there that is impossible. But from everything I’ve ever witnessed read all the people I’ve ever talked to I’ve never seen a case where it truly did work. I can’t see how it could. I assume that you know some situations are better than others and absolute. Maybe some people are just better equipped for better or more laid back or whatever. I don’t know. But the power dynamics there are just I mean there’s so many ways for that to go horribly wrong for everyone. And it’s all coming through this misogynistic patriarchal system that has already put women down about as far as they can go. Yeah. It’s just it’s I don’t know. Have you ever seen the. There’s a show called The Handmaids too. Yes I actually just finished watching that I had to watch it. And he said yes Família. I could imagine I had to move my wife was interested in watching it. She had a wisdom tooth surgery and she was like hey let’s you know this show has been clean let’s try to binge watch this while I’m down you know with my surgery. And I could I had to I could watch one episode and then I needed you know like I can binge this over the course of the Loban I’ve got to take a break because it is it is a heavy thing and I can’t and it hasn’t lived. You know it was you know of course it was so extreme.

[01:05:41] No I’m not saying that it was that extreme but so many of the elements of it. Yes. You know you’re left with you realize you haven’t breathed for a while you realize that you feel those anxiety coming back you feel those icy fear that grips your heart and you’re all of your insides turned into knots and it’s like I’ve been on the other side of that facial expression you know I’ve gone along through life. Well we women interacted with each other. All of us with our fake keep sweet smile pasted on our face that never quite makes it to your eyes. You know you got the smile on your lips but you look into each other’s eyes and there’s that pain and you have that understanding and acknowledgement that we’re all hurting that we’re smiling and this is our choice and they brought up and it was. Yeah I watched it it was really hard. And then there’s an episode I can’t remember ever. I actually just looked it up a few days ago and we watched the part but they were going to put these handmaids on display in front of the dignitaries from these other countries to show them they were happy. And they start calling off the Serena. Joy comes in and tells them to get rid of the damaged ones to send the damaged ones away. And I just because we were damaged you know they have physical damage. The rest of us it was psychological emotional damage. You didn’t smile enough. We can’t let people see you. You go back in the House. Kind of a thing. You know we’re going to put on display the women that can smile.

[01:07:26] No matter what. But then they started calling you know it was really striking to me when it first sunk in that like the main character is of a friend of Fred. She belongs to. You no longer have your own identity. You’re his property. But in the other scene they start calling out these names and they had of Warren of Lyle of John of Tim the woman in charge of these of these handmaid is Aunt Lydia and we were required to call women and we were Ben’s property and Aunt Lydia in the AFL this was a amazing woman who was the midwife who delivered all these babies. But it was just such a you know she wasn’t an evil person but it was like why did they have to call her Aunt Lydia and then you’ve got the you know the whole the connections of stuff it was just it was hard to get through. I cried a lot imagine you exude can’t imagine having lived something like that. And then you know what they say. The truth is stranger than fiction. You know I mean there’s so much at absolute you. This is heartbreaking. So did you even look at the similarities with the women you know the wives they had these strict rules and you were required to be there as part of this ordinance. You know that read the Bible verse amounts to try to impregnate the handmaid and she’s under all these strict requirements everybody is watching she has to follow the rules.

[01:09:09] And the men are sneaking around having a separate relationship not with the hand wives that handmaidens but they’re going to these parties where there’s drinking and drugs and I thought that’s so true on the outside there’s this this fake front of these righteous pure men and they try to make us all understand they’re the real victims. Have you ever tried dealing with the emotions of a bunch of women. I need a break you know to be able to have my prime rib dinner that my family can never have a bite of. And those type of things. It was it was the closest thing I’ve ever seen to any the cult culture and life and consequences being portrayed on film. So then you how did you do things progressed for you. You’ve been indoctrinated in this way and then you know you’re just a child but you know because you came in kind of differently. You’re lonely you don’t have this family with people of your own age. There’s you some separation there as you go through your teen years than you know. Are you anticipating you know like I know I know you talked about looking forward to getting married because then you would have have a love and it would just be for you it would be maybe the love that your parents didn’t give you. Yeah. When you when you’re you know going through your middle a mental age here mid teen years your middle teenage years and starting to approach you know that that I guess marriageable age at least at that time in the calls. You know what’s going through your head. How are you. How are you feeling as you get closer to that are you. Are you excited are you. You know how’s that feel.

[01:11:11] What is that like. Well I have to say I had extremely mixed feelings on it depending on the day or what my where my mind was. My older sister had gotten married and she married Rulon Jeffs son and that gave me a whole different window in to what it was actually be like to get married you know before it’s like this fairytale imagination of what I was going to do what my life be like. And then he was around and I didn’t I felt uncomfortable with how flirty and forward he acted toward me. And I had as at that point I had started noticing that married men were that way. Quite often you’d get the feeling that they were looking you over and sizing you up you know seeing where you might fit into their collection kind of that’s the feeling I would get. And it was uncomfortable. And yeah if a boy dared an unmarried boy dared look your way. There were severe consequences. You know you get sent away you could get corrected. It was like once you got married then your morals could all go out the window and it was OK. And so I would imagine that most girls had the same type of a thing and I know you didn’t very often dare voice it to anyone but you start building this mental blacklist of people you knew you weren’t allowed you. You hope to marry anyone or to set your heart on anyone. But I felt like it was OK.

[01:12:52] As I looked around I was making this mental list of who I hoped I would not be told to marry you know creepy uncle whoever that absolutely freak you out. You’re like how dare you be looking at me in that way. I know you’ve got two wives at home and if you married me I’d just be the next one in the collection while you’re out looking all the other girls right. And there are a lot of cases where sisters. Same person. And I did not want to marry my brother in law. He was like I didn’t want to. And so you have that the anticipation hoping you have on the one hand it could be good you could marry a nice guy. You might not be one of 30 wives so that you actually have an individual meaning to this man. And you know wrecking the family you know coming along as the new wife. And at the same time there was this whole list of things that you saw around you that go wrong. What if you married a guy that didn’t like you. What if you married a guy whose wives hated you and treated you bad. What if you got told to marry the father of a boy that you had a crush on in high school. How is that supposed to work. You know. So it became a lot more complex as I grew up and got older and you start to have a little bit better comprehension of what you’re actually facing and what your possibilities are. When I was younger I didn’t know anybody in the group I’d go to church look around and see all these very nice people and girls and their beautiful dresses.

[01:14:26] And it was just it almost felt like this you know you were part of this big community this big family. And that is the one thing that I miss is that you did feel like there’s always somebody that had your back or the church was always there. Anything really bad happened you have some backup or at least you believed you did. Then I watched things happen where that those things did happen and the church was like huh. You must have sinned go your way and figure it out. But it just the whole thing shifted in my mind. I started to see the world from a different lens. And I no longer believed that getting married was going to be the answer to all my problems. That is automatically God telling some man he had to love me and that he would right. There was a really scary scenarios out there that you didn’t know if you could be part of. And a lot of men you’d never seen in your life and never met you could be told you’re getting married to some guy and Shark Creek or Canada and they track you off. You meet the guy get married and all a sudden you’re sleeping with him and trying to fit into his family. No you you’re absolutely terrifying. I mean I can’t imagine this mostly at that age you know being you’re being pushed in that way. You know your life is clearly not your own. It belong to the church it belongs to the men and women whom you can be dropped off to some other man so you know that’s just there’s no stability.

[01:16:00] You don’t you know you want to believe there’s all these rules set out. And I for me I reached a point where it was just it was all too much when I was a teenager. At one point I got quite depressed. I actually attempted suicide. And when you get to that point in your life there’s no words to describe how disappointed you feel in yourself when you wake up the next morning you realize you can’t kill yourself right. You didn’t even succeed at that. But it did give me a new I thought OK. OK. I prayed so hard all my life. Apparently Heavenly Father protected me and didn’t allow my efforts to be successful so this must mean that he’s giving me another chance. I have to make this work. There’s no easy out for me. And so I double down and I thought Okay the one thing that’s awesome about the gospel is that there’s all these promises and they’re set in stone and we’re told that God does not lie. And he says if this then that. So all I have to do is make sure I the best of my ability to do all that if I’m going to be obedient. I’m going to submit myself to the priesthood I’m going to raise my kids right. I’m going to sacrifice everything. Anything that comes along I’m going to show God I’m going to make up for the mistakes the past I’m going to do this and that’s how I lived. You know you have to try to push the thoughts the doubts out of your mind. No you just I believe in God. Yes people you know.

[01:17:45] And that’s another thing I hear a lot from people who are in different religions. Well God is perfect on the church’s right. People have their weaknesses. So you can’t judge God based on what Brother so-and-so does. Yeah he gets up in front of the church and says he’s telling you what God wants but if he’s molesting his girls in the background that’s not God’s fault. It doesn’t change what he told you was true. I was really a mess. Yeah. Oh is it really messes with your mind. And there’s you can’t trust yourself. You just have to almost mechanically keep plugging along. What are the rules. What have I been told. Yes. I think about that. I just have to keep plowing straight ahead and ignore all the red flags that are jumping up. Those are the devil trying to internist out that doubling down thing is something that a lot of Jehovah’s Witnesses do at different times usually when they’re there dissonance kicks in and they’re starting to see that this isn’t what it was portrayed as. And it’s like we try we always tried to force ourselves to believe whatever it was. And yet you know if only I double down then then that will make everything OK. It’s essentially just escapism it’s escaping into into the activities of the church to try to distract your own mind from the realities. But you know with you you know you double down you know how does that progress then as as you know you eventually aid a little bit to the point where you do meet you know your eventual husband.

[01:19:24] Well when I was I’d say around I think I was better than I was about 12. My father was working at a company that where a lot of other men in the church worked. And so through that he met other people and the guys would have these evenings where they’d go to a park and the guys all get together and play baseball. And he couldn’t we never left the house. But if he went sometimes he would bring us and then your mother could sit and watch the guys play baseball some of the other men Brolsma their families and that gave us an opportunity to get out and see other people. And then we started going to some different gathering’s. There’s a man in the church who likes to put together things he would rent a roller skating rink. And we can all go. And it was just our people and we’d play music that was appropriate you know and course there are always adults and parents there to watch make sure boys and girls weren’t intermingling too closely or anything like that. But these gatherings we all went to a park. You know everybody brought their own picnic lunch or whatever on a weekend. And there is this huge gathering of people in the Salt Lake area and my parents got introduced to the Nicholson family. And it was they both of them mothers and a couple of their older girls taught at Alta Academy and so through getting to know their family they convinced my parents that they really should put us into school. And I think part of their motivation was that they saw that my mother was just totally overwhelmed.

[01:21:09] You know every time she is pregnant she got severe morning sickness the whole time as she is trying to do everything and be everything. And so not only did she would it be great for her to have that one burden removed but give us. I’m sure that they saw all of us extremely backward awkward children. Oh those poor things we need to socialize them somehow. So then we started going to school when I was in seventh grade and we became really good friends with the Nicholsons and so you know by the time from the time I was like twelve and their son David was 14 we interacted a lot our families together. And huge long story but then we both ended up working at the same machine shop together and we liked each other and we had to be really careful if you like someone you have to be sure that you’re willing to do whatever the Lord requires you to do. And my father became aware that we liked each other and it was a huge deal to him and in the end I went and talked to Uncle Rulon and poured my heart out to him about how I felt and why and that I really truly did want to do whatever God required of me and the hard time I’ve had growing up isolated and going to school and never having any friends and that life had been tough. And I wasn’t wanting to do anything wrong but I felt like I just no matter how hard I tried. I was always on the wrong end of things my dad was always upset with me and he was accusing me of every evil you could imagine.

[01:23:03] At one point I remember him telling me that he knew that I was no longer clean and pure he’d do that I was no longer a virgin. He didn’t know how many men I’d been with or how far I’d gone or who I’d been with. But he was just extremely disappointed in me and wanted me totally. I had to confess so that he could help me. I had never even held hands with a boy and it didn’t matter how many times I told him I haven’t done anything he would hang his head and shake his head at me and say things like I don’t understand. On top of all that you’ve done why you would lie about it. And that’s what actually brought me to the point of being suicidal because I felt like I had I couldn’t defend myself. It be one thing if I’d done something wrong. Yeah yeah. You can’t win and I felt like I couldn’t win. And you know I’d spent by that point five years in school having it drilled into my head that our fathers confidence in us was life that the prophet trusted our good fathers and us. And your father needed to have confidence in you. And when he went before the prophet said I have confidence in this son or daughter than the prophet would automatically have confidence in you and you know your life would be on the right track. And I couldn’t get my father to believe me. He was my priesthood head and he thought I was a whore and no matter how many times I told him I hadn’t done anything he wouldn’t believe it.

[01:24:42] And so it it ended up when I went to talk to Uncle rule and I finally I finally it took a long time to convince him to take me and he told me. When I asked him he said no he wouldn’t take me because Uncle Rulon didn’t want people like me in his home and that cut me so deep because I thought you don’t even know what kind of a person I am. I’ve I haven’t done anything wrong I’ve lived my whole life trying to do the right things and be a good priesthood girl. So then when we got there at the appointment he parks the car and said Now before we go in I want you to understand that when we get in there you need. And they mother Marilyn calls you back from my appointment. You need to stay in the living room where they would have you wait until I ask Uncle real and he says I didn’t dare tell him that I was bringing you and I need to ask him if it’s OK that you’re here and all I could think was Are you kidding me. If you truly believe that do you think it’s better that you brought me into his house and then ask forgiveness instead of asking him ahead of time. But it was so hurtful because I thought I’ve done nothing wrong. So at that point because I’d already been through it so many times with him he’d come down in my room and he’d make all these accusations and I’d plead my case and tell them I hadn’t done anything and he’d shake his head at me and that was all I could see in my mind.

[01:26:24] And so I thought this is not just my salvation or not just my life but my salvation on the line. I believed I was going to step in and speak to a man who communed with God and I needed to be able to be open and tell him everything I wanted. This whole burden off my chest. I wanted to know if I was wicked and what I needed to do to fix it or if I was okay. And I at that point couldn’t imagine how I could sit and pour my heart out with my father sitting there shaking his head at me lying got quiet. And so I mustered up all the bravery that I could find. And I said when we go in there I want to talk to him alone. And my father was so angry. He said that’s not right. And Uncle Roland’s not going to like it. And I was I felt like I was just at the end of my rope. I had nothing else to lose. Lesson will you at least just ask. So we went in and he got called back and he went back a few minutes later he walked out and said Uncle Ruland said to send you in. This isn’t right. And I remember thinking uncle ruling’s said How are you judging him and saying were right. You know who is the bad one. So overwhelmed. I felt like here I am 19 years old. I feel like my whole life was going in the toilet and I had to speak up.

[01:27:57] I couldn’t just let him accuse me of these things I had to to be able to have a chance to say my piece and I wanted to know from God if I was truly wicked and if I’d seen some way that I was unaware of. So I went in and I sat across the desk and poured out my heart told him all the sins I could ever think of that I’d ever committed. All the things I’d done wrong all about how David and I had been talking about how sometimes that night when I was overwhelmed I’d climb out my bedroom window and go for walks in my neighborhood. And David didn’t live too far away and one day he came driving by and saw me and we stood out on the street and talked in the middle of the night and how evil that was. I know and I apologized and I repented. And when it all came down to the end he told me that I hadn’t done anything wrong and that he understood how I felt and that in his position he had to ask girls when they came and said they were ready to be married which I had done like three months before this. He was he had asked us Do you have anyone in mind. He says I need I don’t need you to lie. It’s not about saying that the answer needs to always be No. He says sometimes girls are allowed by God to have some idea of where they’re going to go because maybe it makes it easier for them to accept where they’re headed. So I ask that yes. And then you need to tell me if you had anybody in mind or any of these kind of feelings or ideas.

[01:29:33] So then I can take it to God. And if you write wonderful we’re on the path we send you off where you need to go and if you’re wrong then you understand that it’s something you need to be able to get past. If you’re willing to accept Godswill and it was like the weight of the world was taken off my shoulders. God said I was OK. And in that moment it didn’t matter what my father thought or anybody else thought but the result of that was that that was on a Tuesday I believe I got married. David My were married a couple days later uncle Rulon said he took it to the Lord and he felt very good that that was where I belonged. And the problem with that was when I was ready to leave Ruland Jeffs office that day he said to me I don’t want you to tell your father what we talked about in here. He says I’ll take care of it. Don’t tell him this is none of his business which was like holy cow because he’s my priest head. But at the same time when I was like he wasn’t doing me any favors I just wanted to be taken care of. So I was like OK you know I was good with that. I didn’t really want to tell Father that I had told Uncle ruin everything or have him questioned me.

[01:31:06] But I don’t know if Uncle really never said anything I have no idea anything from that point on other than I found out just a few years ago that my father from that time on has told everyone that David and I had to get married because we had had sex and then asked to marry David and I was a virgin on my wedding night and I didn’t even know he was telling people that I was one of my younger sisters told me maybe a year or so ago. She’s like I just wonder what really happened with you and David because father always told us this and it was like someone stabbed me to the heart. Horrible. And I was like why. But that was another one of his favorite things that he would tell us anytime we were disobedient as little girls. He’d tell us that he needed us to be obedient otherwise how could he protect us when the mobs came and went. When the war started if we hadn’t been obedient he wouldn’t be allowed to. He wouldn’t have the power to protect us when men would drag us into the streets and rape us. That was his favorite thing to threaten us with. And as a child that’s what I grew up hearing all the time and then it came back to mind when I was older and had my own children I thought What on earth constant so even though it may have his mind go that way much less use it as a threat. Against us but so that’s how I ended up getting married. And it was not by any means the common experience of people in the Felty us.

[01:32:53] So you know not only that we actually liked each other before we got married but that you knew him you know and the fact that he got to be a first wife and on and on and on so life was actually good. You know when I first got married he did love me. And it was very comforting for me to know that it wasn’t just that the prophet told some poor guy to take me on as his wife. I knew that he would have chosen me by his own free will. And so I had so little self-confidence so little worth in my own eyes that that was it helped me immensely. To not feel you know I didn’t have to doubt that he wished he’d married somebody else or any of that kind of thing. Yeah that’s that’s got to be huge in the I mean for a person who has been devalued their whole life to finally feel like you have some value in the eyes of someone has to be huge. There’s not even a word. And it was it was a pivoting point in my life. But once again it was not. It also was not the fix all of my fears and problems because then once I was married and we and I came to understand the power of having an intimate relationship and how close you can become to someone how much it matters to you that they love you and that you mean something to them. I never even comprehended what it would be like to be married at least not at that level. And to think of him bringing other women or girls into his life and in his bed and knowing that he was having that relationship with anyone else it was just torture. And I just said I just can’t think about.

[01:34:50] I have to not look at it because this is my religion. This is what I signed up for. How can I say I believe it and then fight against it in my heart. And so it’s a good thing that generally men aren’t given a second wife too soon because I’ve got a lot of work to do on myself to be ready to truly be able to accept that. So in a life carried on we were plagues we had started having children. You were a mother. You thought you were. That’s what plagues shirt for polygamists but yell at us. Okay. You go into buying your legs anyway. Basically we’re living pretty normal lives as fundamentalist Mormons in in Gentile Salt Lake we had started having babies and you know they became my life. Men are so tied down you know they start having projects on Saturdays and he started getting involved in doing the sound room for meetings and my children were the one constant. And I also felt like it was a safe place for me to retreat to if I lived for my children and focus my life on them. No one that was my my job in life you know that was the measuring stick by which God would look if I was a good person and worthy to be protected when the distractions came if I was raising up a royal priesthood you know and righteous children. But also I felt like I had to start building some kind of a wall around my heart with the anticipation that time is going on it’s going to happen someday that David’s going to come home with another wife. And it was too painful too to think about.

[01:36:56] And so I started very much kind of isolating myself from it. I tried really hard not to enjoy our relationship too much because that would make her hurt too much. You know there’s kind of two two trains of thought that could apply to that and I had done one for a while. It was like I’m going to get the most out of my life with him as I can before it’s all ripped right and then I start to realize that that was going to hurt too bad. So I had to cut back I had to start guarding my heart. I had to make it where it didn’t matter to me so much whether or not he was around. And I had to have meaning in my life beyond our relationship. And by that point I mean all my children were getting older I was busted you homeschool selling all their clothes canning all the stuff that good women did. So that kind of made it an easy way to shift that direction. Just gonna stay busy and think about it. Exactly. You don’t think. And whatever happens it’s coming your way. You’re grateful for it but you don’t put any hope on seeing it again in the future. So so then you you basically drove into motherhood. So then how many kids did you in the end I ended up with six live births. I had my first three were each 20 months apart. And then I and I had some miscarriages in between.

[01:38:37] I had a really serious miscarriage that I lost 18 weeks and ended up going in and getting a D and C and at that time I was convinced that the doctors messed something up because I went. It took almost six years between my third child and my fourth child. I just didn’t get pregnant. Nothing was working. And that was really hard because that’s your that’s your worth. That’s your purpose. And I you and I had one of my sisters asked me one day what I thought I had done that the Lord wasn’t allowing me to have babies anymore and fulfill my purpose. And it was so hard because it wasn’t that I didn’t want them you know how in the Bible the Lord closed up people’s wounds all the time. I don’t know. As far as I knew I hadn’t done anything you know looking back now I’m pretty sure that most likely had a lot more to do with the stress that was in my life. There’s everything else but it was a really difficult period to get through. And then I had three more. So I have my oldest is a girl and then I have five boys which was kind of funny cause my mother had tan. She had nine girls and one boy and even that the makeup of my group of children was a source of mixed feelings because on the one hand I was going to someday have to give my daughter away to be the possession and belonging to some other man’s family. I no longer would have a connection you know it got to the point where Warren Jeffs was saying once you girls are married you don’t you shouldn’t be talking to your mothers anymore. And I really that was gonna hard you know.

[01:40:35] And so my five boys they would get married they’d end up with how many wives and all these kids they would always be part of my kingdom as long as my husband and I were together. That was our little kingdom growing and so I could hold onto them but at the same time boys were getting kicked out leaving all the time and is as much as I want to convince myself you had to face the reality that I don’t know how many of them will stick with it. How many of them I’m going to have to or I’ll be told to shun because their past is hazed and so it’s one of those things where you enjoy watching your kids grow up but you wish they didn’t. Because as long as there’s little you can protect them and keep them safe and they want to pass the time when there’s five you know who knows what digging up and I watched it happen I watched boys disappear. I heard stories of people who took their 13 14 15 year old boys and drove down to St George or Las Vegas and dropped him off at a gas station. They said they’re no longer there. They do just leave them no longer. I don’t try to contact me. There you go. And I knew I couldn’t do that even if my child decided to leave or got kicked out. There was no way I could. They had they had become my life. They were what I lived for. And so as time went on the rules started getting more strict Rulon Jeffs died and Warren took over entirely and started sending men away.

[01:42:12] You know we always been told that the wicked needed be weeded out from among us. We could Perfecta people but we never imagined basically that her stuff. I always pictured what’s going to happen in the resurrection after you die God sorts us out. I never pictured the church taking a man’s family away and sending him off to repent and that was terrifying to me when they sent someone off to repent. What does that mean. Is that their way is saying we kicked them out and basically drove them to Las Vegas and dropped them off and gas station. Well that’s what they do with young people I mean everything they do with the adult happening with adults. Okay so in April of 2000 five my father in law got sent away and his second wife had already left the church and moved away. His third wife was told to go live back at her father’s house. She took her few children with her. His first wife was my mother in law and we were moved into a bigger house and she was moved in with us and my husband. Her son became her caretaker and her priest had had mutton and the father in law where did he go. Does he just go out of the world. Much of things you know for some of them they had construction jobs and they just had they tell you. Tell him Go later they start time go far away. My father in law moved to Kanab which is like 20 miles maybe south of Colorado City.

[01:44:02] And he had a friend that let him use like a camper trailer and parked in an RV park. And that’s where he lived and got him a job at the dollar store. And my husband had been told to still go and try to be an encouragement to him. He was supposed to have no contact whatsoever with his former wives. Basically my husband David was the one family contact who was allowed to stay in his life and if he needed things that make sure he was taken care of. And he talked to him and his father told them he says I have no idea what I’ve done. They didn’t tell me you know in my mind I pictured they’d say you did this thing go even higher. But they said you have sinned some grievous sin you go repent and they say well what have I done. And they told you know what you’ve done or if you don’t know what you’ve done you go pray about it until the Lord reveals it and then you’re supposed to confess the sin and repent of it. And it brought to mind my father saying I know you’ve done these things when I hadn’t. What do you do you say never. Yes. The right sin. And it came to a point where later I found out what would happen is one person would talk about it happening or report something everything. This went on and I had a hard time with that and they’d mention someone else’s name and Lehrers you’d be like oh well he shouldn’t have done that and you might not have even been aware that you did it or that you hurt somebody feelings or whatever it was anything essentially to get you out.

[01:45:45] Basically yes. And he was a rare case. He was gone for a year and then he was allowed to come back and he was given back his two wives and their children. And shortly after that that Warren was arrested and there were no marriages on stuff. And then sadly he passed away from. Well he had gotten cancer. They had that pretty well taken care of but then he got mersa that gave him pneumonia and he passed away from that I to this day I guarantee you I watched his health deteriorate while he was you know 68 69 years old suddenly having everything he lived for torn from them and living in a cold drafty trailer working in a dollar store trying to figure out what he’d done wrong and the devastation that that causes. And I guarantee you when he came back he was much less likely to ask questions about anything he was told. Oh sure. And you know that was an example to all of us. It could happen to you. Boy you better not think the wrong thought got gotta tell me out of your ass you know. So a lot of people went a long ways away. There are people that you know they went wherever we didn’t know where they went. And you’d be gone long and all of a sudden someone would disappear and by you know by the 2005 and beyond that there were special places that were being set up and they were redeeming Zion and so sometimes you’d see someone else and disappear. Weber doesn’t work at the company anymore. And we all.

[01:47:26] Well for me I chose to think well I hope they went to a better place. I hope they got called Zion because you didn’t want to think that maybe they got kicked out and sent away. And it was extremely stressful and toxic environment when a man would be sent away know like from my father in law. He was told to go and repent and try to come back. Other men were told that their sins were so bad that they were now Sons of Perdition they had no hope. They couldn’t come back. But interestingly enough though they were told these people are not your family anymore you have no rights you should never touch them. The family was told to throw away any pictures or memories they had of their father. But the man was still informed that since they were used to be his family he should go out and work hard as he could and send as much money as he could back then take care of his well that some good. Then why did he do that. But they already eddying read that about you are you know. And if people watch septet great and we found out during the time that my mother in law lived with us there was a few times when David would get an envelope from Lyle Jeffs who was the bishop at the time with some money in it that had come from his father that he had sent money to give to his wives.

[01:48:55] And it wasn’t you know for a lot of people I’d never find this out but once he was then back in the fold and they could talk about it you know he was working hard living on next to nothing so he could send as much as he could not just to take care of his family but to prove that he still believed you know show them that he was still devoted and he wanted back. And you know they start comparing numbers and find out that he was sending back a lot of money and very little of it was making it to his family. The church was keeping most of it and some of it never made it to them at all. So the whole situation but if you’re on the inside if you’re deep in there and you’re dug in you don’t know those things. And if anybody tries to tell you that while you’ve been listening to the devil or the evil apostates the evil. And you know Warren Jeffs trained us very carefully to believe and understand that apostates are liars from the beginning and they can not tell the truth. They might tell you just like the devil they might tell you 99 truths to slip in that one sneaky lie so you can’t talk to them at all because they might really good. So again you know and it’s it’s horrible. The you get in this trap in your mind. It goes round round and round because the other thing they taught us was God and the prophet always and only do right. And when they started sending men away they gave us this big long sermon about not being guilty of the sin of sympathy against authority.

[01:50:39] If your father or some man that you held in high regard and you thought he was awesome guy all of a sudden get sent away and kicked out. Don’t you dare think. But he was a nice guy. Is there a mistake because you’re questioning God. You have to accept it. Never express any sympathy for what the Lord has done. And you know watch your own self that you’re not making mistakes that is going to get you tossed out next. And it reached a point where the only thing we felt like we could safely talk about was like the weather. Well it’s been really cold this week. Because everybody start you know people being told things in secret especially once there is the separation of the United Order and the non United Order. You couldn’t say anything even about the gospel because you might be saying something that person hadn’t heard about and everything had to come through proper authority and you could be severely punished sent away if you revealed even if it’s the truth. It was what God told you if you revealed that someone else instead of it going through the proper channels. So you just couldn’t talk about it. There’s something to really think about like going back to the Handmaid’s Tale. You know you see the handmaids go off and all they discuss is like you say you know pretty much the weather or something like that because everything else is too dangerous to talk about. And you’re not sure if that other person is joining like you or if you say the wrong thing if they’re going to go running and report you you’re just right. You have to walk that fine line. So apparently there was a there was some sort of a split that happened.

[01:52:26] Yes so in about 2010 it was announced that like Brigham Young stay we were going to have this Restoril process. They call it confirmations. Every person must write a confession letter and turn it in. And at first I said only our prophet read these and then it was like only R and the bishop probably needs while he was in prison by then. You know it was it just kind of started it started to fall apart to where it was like you had no idea who all was going to read this. But basically you’re supposed to write this long black list of every bad thing you’ve ever done in your life. Didn’t matter if you’d repented of it. They wanted you know you could say you felt like you repented of whatever but you had to tell it all. And I struggled with it because I felt like I’d never done anything terribly wrong and up to the point when I got married I already had god tell me all of that was OK. So do I right. You better come out with something. Well exactly and I better write it because I can’t pretend like I’m perfect. Before then we all know we’re not perfect. And I remember I struggled with it so hard because I had spent the last couple of years praying so fervently and pleading with heavenly father to give me that testimony that I was everything I was okay in his eyes. And I thought you know in my heart and in my soul I know that me and got are good and I’ve prayed about it.

[01:54:09] I’ve I’ve made mistakes but I feel I’ve I have confessed them to God I’ve repented of them. And the other thing we were taught that you know the Lord knows it’s not just Buhweju it’s the intent of your heart. You might do all the right things but you’re doing it because you want glory and that undoes all the good you did. And so in my mind I was thinking well I’ve worked really hard. Me and gotter did. And it’s not just that I’ve already confessed and worked through this. But he knows my heart he knows why I did those things. He knows how bad I was hurting and you want me just vomited out on a paper for who knows what men to read and know the intricate struggles I’ve been in my life. But you don’t want to know the good I’ve done for losing the burden that it is. And so I felt like OK. I’m confident that I am in the right place. I’m just going to trust in God and I’m going to write out my letter. And once you wrote out your letter if you know if you can festive anything terrible and you didn’t need repent didn’t get kicked out for it then they’d let you know when they come and do a reconfirmation you got rebaptized they reconfirmed all your blessings on your head and all of this you were you know the slate at that point was wiped clean.

[01:55:33] That was in preparation because the distractions were coming we needed to be pure enough to be lifted up and protected and get our profit out of prison and all that stuff but it really came down to was they now had a blacklist they could use to kick people out and hold over their heads and you never detected that that’s what it was but that’s what it was. And the next step was that they said you know the United Order is something they’ve been teaching it’s something Brigham Young taught her that Joe Smith taught Brigham Young actually tried to implement it in different communities. And now’s the time God says we have to do it and. And that means everything you own every penny that comes into your possession gets turned into the church and then the store house will give you back what you need. And we didn’t have much by then but we went through that and you had to fill out questionnaires you had to answer questions and then you had to go through and be judged interviewed and judged by men that were called to do that. And one of them was my father. And then Lyle Jeffs as the bishop. And then JohnM. Barlow when I went and if you had not been judged worthy by midnight on December 11th of 2000 eleven you were no longer a member of the church. So whether whether it was that you didn’t make it through the process or that you were found unworthy. That was it. And I was never the member smooth judging other judges. But by that point he’s seen I’ve raised these good children. He lived in my home in Vegas for a couple of years and he saw that we were good saints and that my children were these sweet obedient you know I he whatever feelings he may have had against me before he.

[01:57:29] I’m glad he lived with me because now he sees that we’re good people and so I actually didn’t feel worried because of that point I also didn’t know that he’d been telling everyone that David and I had to get married. So it was. Ignorance is bliss to some degree. And so that was a whole new process she had to go through. Our family got called on the last day on December 3 first. We went through it was I’ll never forget the experience. It felt so dark going in the office and answering the questions but still I felt 100 percent confident. I had prayed and I got that burning testimony that God said I was good and my husband had done the same thing. We had spent months agonizing over and praying and talking and it was a scary time but we both felt like we were good and then we were judged unworthy and my one son was judged unworthy. My two oldest children were worthy and my nine year old was worthy. My other two boys were or eight yet. And if you are eight that means you weren’t at the age of accountability you weren’t baptized as members and so you weren’t judged you were you know any sense you commit before then are on Jesus so or your parents. So as of midnight everything changed. My husband and I were no longer married. I understood when they started talking about I like that if we’re not members that means us our our marriage that does David want to have priesthood which means he can’t be our priest. It had that connection is gone. All of those things are baptisms.

[01:59:16] Everything is wiped out overnight becomes null and void and I was also I was I took comfort in feeling like I knew that we were going to be OK. And then we weren’t. And three of my children were. And by that point I had very little faith and trust in many of the men who were leaders and they wanted me to send my 18 year old daughter my 16 year old disabled son and my nine year old to meetings where I knew they would be told they weren’t allowed to tell me anything that happened or what was said. And it terrified me especially for my daughter. There were men and I you know looking back on it now I’m like It’s so crazy. I looked around I was like I wouldn’t trust that man along with my daughter. And yet he was found worthy and so what was I believing in did I believe in God or not. How did he let that slip through. Right. I touched my daughter and I told her that after she went they went that night and got rebaptized and another ordnances got ushered into the United Order and everything. And the next day before she went her meeting I talked to her and I told her I says Now I’m guessing that your meetings and whatever last night they probably told you that part of the requirements is to keep sacred things secret. And she is like yeah how did you know. I’m like I know how this works. So this and us your parents not being worthy. I’m sure that you’ve been told You can’t tell us anything that happens. She’s like yeah exactly.

[02:01:03] Nessa’s I need you to understand something. SS I need you whenever you go to a meeting or anything to be so prayerful and so alert and paying attention I says. And if you do that and there’s anything that gets said If any man tells you that you’re supposed to do something whatever it is if you feel uncomfortable with that then see sacred things should feel whole you should get that testimony that yes this is what God wants. If you don’t feel that that’s not sacred you can walk out. If you have to get up and walk out of a building and come home and you can tell me about that because you only have sacred things secret and she struggled with she like no I’m not supposed tell you I’m like I promise you this is how it works. Even though I knew that they would disagree with that but I was desperate and in my life that was really how God should work. And yet these men would disagree with it because they’ve got their ulterior motives. But I was telling her God’s truth. You know this is how it was and within a few weeks well start tearing our family apart. They all of a sudden had assignments that I couldn’t know about. They had meetings to go to the I couldn’t know what was said. They had reading assignments. And all this stuff and it got to a point where it was frustrating as a mother to be to go to my daughter who already struggled with not necessarily wanting to do everything she was told. You know how kids are.

[02:02:40] And I’d say anyone can help me do the dishes. Oh I can’t mother because Uncle Lyle gave us this assignment I have to do that. And all of a sudden you’re living in a house where you no longer have jurisdiction over the children that are living there reach. That’s insane. It was insane it at the stress levels went through the roof. David will still working in Los Vegas. They had moved our family back to short Creek but he still worked in Las Vegas which at that point was nice because after being married for 20 years it’s really hard to share space in a house without going for the automatic hug each other. When you see each other how we can’t handshake three seconds more than you would be it was adultry and we were desperately trying to work this out so I made it easier that he wasn’t in the same city with me all week. It just it was so hard and things started falling apart. And I my children would go to their meetings and come home and I could tell something was wrong but they wouldn’t tell me. And I knew them too well. You know I was like This is supposed to be higher laws and greater light. Why is it bothering my children. What are they saying to my kids. And one day it had been even worse and I finally cornered my daughter Amanda and I said what is going on.

[02:04:06] And she finally after making me promise I wouldn’t tell anyone told me that Lyle Jeffs had announced in their meeting the message that had been sent through Warren from God that God would no longer allow the unworthy to live among the worthy and risk them contaminating the pure. He had to make that more of a separation to protect the purity of the worthy and what that meant they were going to take my children from me. And I already had concerns about my father that he would try and one of David’s sisters had been creepily. Anyway things were going on that left me with no confidence that my children were safe. And they announced the same thing the next week in the meeting that I went to. And once I heard that heart all these struggles all the stuff that I had been working so hard you know as like you said you have to try to make yourself believe in you. You get the next thing thrown at you and instead of looking at it at face value and going that is crap. How do I rearrange things in my brain to make this piece fit. And you pray for a testimony of what they just told you because it doesn’t feel good. It doesn’t seem right. It doesn’t even fit with what you’ve been told your whole life but somehow for your own salvation you have to make that peace make sense. You have to believe that you have to accept it. And I’ve been doing that for all of this time. But that was it that crossed a line. It was a line I wasn’t willing to cross. And in my mind I was like Nobody takes my kids from me nobody. You can’t tell me that God doesn’t think I’m worthy. You mean who raised these kids to be good enough to be worthy.

[02:06:06] It was her right to continue. And I’ve seen families that were those guys were were found worthy and unlike those are some of the most dishonest rotten people I know. But I you my kids my end up living with them because they’re worthy by some strange measure. So you’re not alone. You were stoo in the religion though deemed unworthy. You were just like a third class something. Yes. And they started separated meetings. So they Worthy’s still went to the meeting. The big meeting hall at the same two o’clock time slot in the day their meetings sometimes go six or eight hours. Oh it was insane. The money would go to the Restoril meetings that were at 11:00 o’clock on Sunday mornings at a school that was just right across the street from where we were living and they were gone just start back over at the beginning. Teach us the articles of faith and we read the letter. And obviously we were just unclear on the basic concepts of our religion or they were going to you know you had to go to those meetings to show you were still trying and you had to write confession letters every week and all this stuff. So even though we weren’t members of the church we still had our meetings. They still wanted your tithing and your donation of course. Oh that was that you still really believe and there were hundreds and hundreds. You know I thought I’m not worthy. It’s going to be so humiliating to go walking over to meeting me and this handful of other people while everybody’s looking out the window.

[02:07:43] Oh sure enough I knew Brinda Nixon wasn’t going to make it. You know and he said there were. I went to a meeting I thought did anybody make it. Because most people I know were here at the Restoril meeting. So but by the time the next week. So I had gone to my eleven o’clock meeting that Sunday my children went to their two o’clock meeting. That went really long and that night my daughter told me what had been said. So I knew that they were going to announce it a week from then which made me at least think they’re not going to start Teran people apart for that week. I have to figure out what I’m going to do. I didn’t know for sure how my husband felt. I mean obviously he was shocked but I didn’t know who he was. You can’t really bring that up. So what do you think. Should we do it. You know because he could be totally on board even though he thought it was horrible and then he’s like you know go to the bishop I don’t know what to do my wife is questioning it and boom I’d be out there. So you had to be very careful he went to work for the week and through that week I decided that’s it. I we have to get out of here. Living there in town was utter hell as it was that the child abuse that I witnessed the animal torture the cruelty and the whole town was just falling apart.

[02:09:08] Now that so many men had been sent out and people were reassigned the women were so overwhelmed that nobody was really watching the children it was just it was a madhouse. And my children had been witnesses of some pretty awful stuff they’d been bullied or treated bad and I was like I have to get out. I cannot live here and I’m not going to stay and let someone take my children from me. But then I had to figure out so how do I do that. And of course I wanted for David and I and all of our children to leave together but that was a really touchy thing you had to delicately work your way through until you knew you’re on the same page. And you know we were and we spent hours every night during the week when he was gone we hardly got any sleep we’d be on the phone and I’d hide in a corner while we were living in a duplex. I had to make sure the people next door couldn’t hear what I was saying. But we had to talk about it. We decided we had to leave. And you know we were living in you EPRI and house on his property. That’s what they called the organization that held all the church’s property was united. My husband was working for a church owned and run business and we had seen we understood soon as people were aware that we were in opposition they would find a way to get rid of him at his job. They will try to kick us out of our house. And so we had to have things lined up so that we could survive.

[02:10:45] We kept our tax return that year and used it to put a deposit on a house to rent. My husband he had never had to fill out a resumé or go to a job interview because you just get told you work over here. You worked for this guy and do this job and so on top of being absolutely torn apart that we were leaving everything we knew and even though we felt like it was the right thing to do. That didn’t mean it didn’t hurt. It didn’t mean we didn’t have questions. Are we sure were doing the right thing. And so it took us several weeks to find a house that would work for him to find a job and get things lined up. And at one point in our meeting they talked about how they’re doing the second round now of judging and how great this was my father was telling us this. He is running the meeting how awesome this was because there are many here in this meeting who’ve been through that second judging and who’ve been found worthy we just haven’t had the time yet to let you know. Basically there is hope. Everybody come back. Let’s go back through this next judging process keep repenting keep you know they keep holding that carried out you know in front of you. Yeah. My husband says one day after he says I don’t know do we’ve got it. He says Do you think we need to stay and go through the next round of judging and see maybe we’ll get in and then we’ll at least be with our kids. But by that point everything together. I was just done.

[02:12:25] I told him that in my opinion what we had already done was plenty to prove to Heavenly Father that we believed and that we wanted to do the right thing and that I wasn’t going to subject myself to that again but that if he really felt like he needed to then you know of course go ahead. But that I really wished and hoped that we could live together. I didn’t know how to make it in the Gentile world on my own. And he told me that he just needed to know that he was doing the right thing. And I was like Absolutely you do. But that in my mind I thought he’s he’s got that doubt. And if he decides to go and if he if they convince him to stay I’m going to have to do this on my own and I can’t tell him my thought process. I can’t tell him that I’m looking at our bank account and our credit card balance and trying to figure out how far I could get on a tank of gas and where I would head if I have to do this alone. I couldn’t sell him so that I couldn’t give him any indication that I would be willing to do that because if he made that choice I was going to need to wait till he headed to work in Las Vegas and then we had a big 15 passenger van I would load my kids and whatever I could in that and we would just go and it was terrifying at that point. I knew I had a lot of relatives that were Gentile’s.

[02:13:54] I had no way to contact them I didn’t know where anybody lived and I was trying to think what direction would I even go and you know once I get a tank of gas away if they realized he could cut off all access to the cards how far can I go and what would I do once I get there. Who do I talk to. I had no idea. I knew I had to leave. I had to protect my children from what I saw was happening and I ended up because my daughter had told me and then my son was unworthy. I needed his help. My oldest son has three palsy and he’s disabled and he operated on a much younger level and the one thing you could not trust him to do was keep his mouth shut. He couldn’t run doing them as my son and I would. We weren’t allowed to use the Internet at that point. David Abraham an air card that we could use for internet. We had to keep that secret from our kids and everybody and we’re looking at houses for rent and my son and I would go drive around we’d say Oh we’re gonna go to Walmart we went to Wal-Mart a lot in those days and you want to make sure nobody was still following you you’d watch for the people that had you know although the gods what they had positioned in the parking lot in a hurricane and whatever and do it you could to try to look as innocent as possible.

[02:15:23] You know maybe go ahead and stop at Walmart and then come out and go to the gas station and then try to in a roundabout way drive past the house and hopefully you know watch that nobody’s following you so they wouldn’t know what you’re doing. And so my daughter and my one son knew what we were going to do the rest of them did not. And there is so much stress and I had to try to I’d had a an old trailer where they’d put moving boxes because they had crews and when you know you’d be there one day and the crew would show up at the door and say Hi Uncle Carlisle says you’re moving somewhere else and here’s these van loads of girls and box you know the boys show up and drop off boxes and tape and bubble wrap. The girls that show up go through impact your entire house in no time flat and disappear. The boys true would come back haul your stuff wherever you were going next and the girls would come back in and clean and then they’d bring the next family and move it home. So they had a trailer of boxes that were like the community boxes and to try and not be too suspicious I’d go by and get a box or two because you do that you know if you had some you need to store tape to the store house and I was slowly packing everything I didn’t need and stacking it and where people couldn’t see it through the open windows trying to get ready.

[02:16:46] I was having to go look at houses I was trying to still interact in the community at a level that looked normal without letting anybody know what I was doing and my 9 year old was so clingy and I need to go on Warren and I were going to go my son to go look at houses and he’d hang on me and cry and I’m like I’ll promise I’ll be right back you gotta stay here. And it took me a couple of weeks before it finally hit me. But at 9 years old he had sat in that meeting and heard that he was going to be taken from us because we weren’t worthy. And at nine years old he had never said a word about it but he knew what was happening and he was desperately trying to get as much time and hugs from me as he could before they took him away. And I just hadn’t even comprehended what he was going through or that he understood it at that level. And I thought if he could keep that secret from me and you know then it starts coming back you start realizing how hurt he’s acted how clean he is that he’s suffering and you didn’t even recognize it. I was so tied up in my own worries. And I thought if he could keep that from me and hurt that bad and not tell me I can trust him to keep this secret. And I took him up in my room and talked to him and I said Morgan I know that in church they told you that they’re going to take you away and give you two or three parents and the tears started welling up in his eyes. And I said I want you to know that we’re going to move that’s not and I says we are finding a house. We’re packing up. We are we are going to move we aren’t going to stay here anymore. Tom you can’t tell anybody this.

[02:18:57] And he started crying and he says but mother I don’t want to end the fear that went through me. I never imagined you know he’d kept us silent. I never really thought that I was going to have to convince my 9 year old it was okay to stay with me. And I just I felt this desperation. I didn’t know what to do. And finally over. OK. I don’t know what I’ve got. I’ve got to work through this with him otherwise I can’t let him out of the house because he’s going to tell on us. And so I said I said Morgan what do you not want to do. And I came down to say he thought I was saying that we were packing up and leaving without them that somebody was going to take them away and we were ditched in town and leaving him in that. I just I started crying and I pulled him over and wrapped him up in my arms. I told him I would never let that happen. I will never let anyone take you from me. And he just we both sat there and cried our eyes out. But at that point I was like This is it. We have to get out of this hell hole. I don’t go jury. This was unreal. And if my child is suffering like that how many other children are going through that there have already been taken from their mothers and plot over here. And what that does to them psychologically and be told your parents aren’t worthy of you.

[02:20:32] So many of the children turned it around like what did I do wrong that I can’t be. Especially the ones that were unworthy and their mothers were oh you know to always blame themselves any way they do. You know so it was amazing to watch the transformation in him once he understood that he went back almost like with a snap of your fingers to being the happy bubbly little boy that I’d always known and that helped that contrast that instant contrast helped me realize how far he had sunk over the months that slow you know he was just sinking under the weight of why he was being told the church that God expected and I was like there was no going back for me I was like I don’t care what anybody says or does. I am taking my kids and we are out of here. And then the new fear came before we got out that I was going to get that phone call or have the crew show up at the door. You know that. Well the bishop called David and he’s sent away and we’re here because they do this often. We’re here to move you guys all out that way if he came back he couldn’t talk to me. They take your cell phone. They would move you and he’d come back to get his stuff they’d leave his stuff in the house. You can bet get his stuff and he didn’t know where you are so he couldn’t try to convince you to leave with him when he got kicked out. And I thought we have to get out. I just have to get out before they do that to us.

[02:22:05] We have to get out before that call comes because it could come any day. It was happening to people you never thought it would happen to you. And and then one day I was just desperate and I’m packing like crazy trying to figure it out. And the thought came to me that not everybody was this lucky. But for me David and I were on the same page. No one on the planet had a legal right to our children but us and as much as I believe that Warren Jeffs spoke for God the cops wouldn’t care. I programmed the Washington County Utah Sheriff’s office phone number into my phone and the Mojave County sheriff’s office phone number into my phone so that if it came to that I could call them because you know you can’t call the town cops. They work for the church and they would do everything they could to keep you there. And then it was like it was like the clouds parted and this light shone. I was like the Church only has as much power as I give them. They can’t force me to leave my husband. They can’t force my husband to leave me and go out into the world. We have a legal marriage. We legally are the parents and caretakers and everything of our own children. And I could look that man in the face and say no and there’s nothing he could do because before I was like What if they tried to force me. It was just like I had never thought that in my life that I could just say no. And the reason me you and I was like Oh my word.

[02:23:57] And all of a sudden I mean that was a huge lessening of the immediate concern that I had because I had those numbers at the ready. I told my children you had a track phone that was at home. I told them never answer the door. I don’t care if it’s on the line. I don’t care who it is. You don’t answer the door you stay in the house you keep locked and you’re even that they were also in this feeling of relief we were on our way out. We know they weren’t going to have to do these terrible things anymore. And yet what a horrible life to be living that they feel terrified of the people that are supposed to be their religious leaders that that someone might come and try to steal you away from your parents. And it wasn’t a a it was a valid concern and a real threat. That the hardest part was when you when you know you’re going to go and you’re rushing around secretly making preparations. And to try to hide it all. You’re acting like nothing’s happening. And so I would go to my father’s house. And I would talk to my mother like nothing had changed and I wanted so bad to grab hold of her and hold her in my arms and just as I understood how Morgan felt. I wanted to absorb every bit of her that I could because I knew that as soon as I walked away from that I would probably never see her or talk to her again in her lifetime or mine. But I couldn’t I couldn’t let on that anything was up.

[02:25:40] I had to pretend like I was going to see her tomorrow and the next day and the day after that for the rest of forever. And I couldn’t hug her I couldn’t tell her. It would just be it would raise red flags if I was to sit down out of the blue and tell her how much I loved her and how much I appreciated to watch. And for me you know I wanted to I wanted to just and moral. And I had to just smile and pretend like Yeah thanks for the Exar whatever you know knowing that I was going to be gone. And I and knowing as much as I knew I was doing the right thing. How bad that was going to hurt her. She would see it that I was lost while those apostates. She’d already had four of her children leave before that. And I knew how much it hurt her. My father always made sure she understood that it was her fault that her children hadn’t stayed faithful and therefore they had nothing to do with it. Oh no no no. Jeffs taught to show me a rebellious child and I’ll show you a rebellious mother. It was always the women’s fault. Men had no responsibility men weren’t the spiritual head of the whole thing. Well they were but it’s just like the prophet and the other you know Arnold you’re down in the hierarchy. They tell you what God what they can teach you but it’s your own fault if you don’t follow. Men men are there to teach women are there. That’s that.

[02:27:14] I mean that was our only purpose in life was to make sure that our children grew up right so if they didn’t certainly wasn’t the father’s fault he was way too busy to actually raise his 30 kids. That’s the mother’s job. But it was so painful that raking his day. Sometimes I just have to try not to think about her because there’s days when I look back and it’s hard to even comprehend that that was my life. It almost seems like a bad dream but I have no other memory of the childhood that was my life. I just have to take a deep breath OK. I can’t think about any more. It hurts all the pain comes back. But then the realization comes again. My mother is still in that absolute living hell. That stuff I broke away from. She’s still in it and it only got worse. I have four of my sisters. Her children you know my immediate sisters out there. My father’s second wife has 10 children and she got kicked out my father ended up kicked out later his second wife got kicked out and they left the second wife. Ten children with my mother to raise so they don’t have either of their biological parents. And my mother is tied down raising the children of the woman that came in and stole her husband and made her life miserable. But my mother is the absolute definition of a saint because she truly loved all of my father’s children as her own. She has raised them taking care of them. And I think that’s part I always hope that she’ll break free.

[02:29:02] But I know that that’s part of what’s holding her there. There’s no way she would abandon those children. Right. You know it’s kind of kind of missing the word Synchronicity is kind of synchronous with you know you weren’t going to abandon your children it’s the same thing you also had. Why blame her. Yeah yeah. You can’t you know they’re her flesh and blood. But she was she played the role of mother in their life more than anyone else. And how could she abandon them now. You know but that’s what makes it so frustrating. You know you get people that are like to see these people chose to do that. Look we talked to this woman. She said it’s what she wants. I’m like yeah I was on the other side of that face for years. I put on a smile. I would have told the entire world that this was my choice and that I was happy and to some degree. I wasn’t lying. I didn’t know what happiness felt like. Yeah you don’t you don’t have any experience with anything else so. Exactly. But just do just like you people in North Korea. I’m sure that they think they’re happy. They have no idea what life outside of North Korea is like Yeah they have no idea what they’re missing what they don’t know what they know the lens they’re looking through. No I’m doing good and I’m happy. But you know it was a couple I think is about a year and I’ve talked to a lot of people that’s pretty much that.

[02:30:34] It takes about a year before you start feel like you’re getting your feet under you after you leave. It took me a year before I dared wear pants. I just kept were in dresses or skirts because I needed to know that I was not going against God. And when I left I thought Warren Jeffs was still a good guy but here he was tucked away in prison. And of course nobody in their letters writes Lyle is treating your people really bad and life is miserable. You’re supposed to be encouraging the so I hadn’t ever said anything about how I felt. But on our way out my husband I I our two kids that were able wrote long letter saying this is what’s happening. Lyle is doing this to your people. It’s hell here. But it wasn’t until after I’d been out for a few months that I finally got hold of information the records and stuff and found out that Lyle was only carrying on what Warren had been doing for years. And he on top of everything else I can’t even describe the feeling of betrayal that that was. To realize that the man that I thought was God basically that I had trusted with everything was nothing more than a filthy perverted vile cruel man who had lied to me my whole life for his own benefit. And then to to you know it took time. It absolutely destroyed my world from under me. And it took time for me to work through that and comprehend what I was really facing and what my life had been and what he had done and what other men were around me all my life.

[02:32:14] And then you realize that here you are on the outside now you know the truth and you understand a whole new level. Why they require you to shun people who leave. My mother would not talk to me my sisters. You know I’ve I counted up one day. I started to realize I couldn’t remember the names of my nieces and nephews. I didn’t even try with like sister wives and their kids. But my own sisters my blood sisters. I couldn’t remember the names of their children. I was starting to forget. I sat down. I can’t keep. I can’t do this. I have to remember their names. Otherwise they become they become faceless even in my own memory. I can’t remember them and they’re in their living this hellish life. And so I list them out and I’ve got close to 50 direct nieces and Duret nephews each so almost a hundred people out there. Not to mention my sisters and my husband’s sisters and my mother and my friends and the entire community we looked at each other as a family. And you realize that all those people that you love and care about are still mental about and you can’t help them and you can’t tell them and you try and you write a blog and you make a documentary video and make comments all over the Facebook can you try to help people understand that when they say oh leave these poor good faithful devoted religious people alone that it’s a lie. Those women aren’t happy and they don’t know. You know it took after I’d been out for about a year. One day I went at our house.

[02:34:01] The mail came that put it in a box that was like down at the entrance to the neighborhood. You moved to Apple Valley which is six miles north of Short Creek so out my window I could watch my family drive past on the highway and there I was. I can talk to him. I’d go to the same stores they did and when they’d see me they run and hide. And it hurt. But I also understood I didn’t blame them because that was me. A few months ago you’ve seen a posse and they were poison to you. You had to get away. I went walking down to get the mail and it was the first time I had dared step outside my house in a short sleeved shirt. I didn’t wear my long underwear Imar and it had quite wide neck and then I was I was still wearing a skirt but it was more of a straight skirt. I went about my knees and split up the back. I mean this was like very evil clothing in my past. You stepped out and I was walking down to the male and the sun was out and that was there is kind of a cool fresh breeze and the sun and the and the breeze touched my skin skin. I had never seen the sun before. And I realized that I was. We were free. We had done it. My children were OK. Nobody had come and attacked us. We’d made it for a year we were kind of had our feet under us. David’s job was going okay.

[02:35:33] My children were adjusting and it was almost like the sun on my skin I don’t know how to even describe it but I thought Oh my word. This is what happy feels like. And it was like oh my skin tingled and I got goose bumps. And there was this feeling in my heart that just wellness like my word. This is happiness. And I’ve never experienced this before all those times I thought I was happy. You were totally over showered overshadowed by the fear and the dark and the anticipation of what the next thing was going to be. For the first time I felt pure happiness and I just started crying happy tears and thought everybody should have the chance to feel this. Everybody should experience this. Everybody should be able to make choices and you know it was a scary thing. When we first left we’re like David settle where do we want to go. And it absolutely stunned me because all my life you either live in short Creek Salt Lake or Canada you know immigrating to Canada Canada was not an easy thing that wasn’t really a choice unless you got married to someone there. But that was it. That’s where the saints lived. Now Salt Lake had been made off limits so the thought that you could just we could actually choose and decide and move anywhere we wanted was just like holy cow you go. And of course we ended up six miles outside of Short Creek because that’s all we could afford it. We couldn’t haul our stuff any further than that. That was our first big Liebe but you start to understand that not there’s huge freedom in making your own choices.

[02:37:32] But the flip side of that was that there’s a huge responsibility. Yeah I could choose to do this. And that’s my choice. That’s awesome. What if it doesn’t work. What if we made a mistake and we find out the church was true and now we’ve condemned our children to hell. What if all of this and before it was like Oh the church said you’re going to live here you’re going to work there you’re going to do these things and you obeyed. You didn’t have any choice but you obeyed. If it all worked out you knew that the Lord bless you for your obedience. If it didn’t work out you did what was right. The Lord must’ve thought you needed a test or a trial. Now it was on you. If you moved somewhere and things went to hell in a handbasket it was your fault. You made the wrong decision and it was like holy cow. What are we. How did you decide. We haven’t been taught how to reason things out or or you know it is like it took time before you could venture beyond what was still familiar and make choices that didn’t prematch fit within the confines of what you were used to. But once Rex passed that the world is the most incredible place and there are thousands and thousands of the most incredible and kind and compassionate and amazing and loving people and their Gentiles and their apostates and you start to realize that the people that you trusted the most were the most harmful to you and the least loving least kind.

[02:39:18] They looked at you as a tool and as a piece of property but you don’t have to be happy forever. Isn’t it amazing how all the things that they proclaims about people of the world were actually just projections of who they were it is and you know it as you start to recognize that you’re like oh sure enough here it is the devil is twisting things you know the world is called the righteous good things bad and bad things good and and I’m in that I’ve given myself to the devil and then all of a sudden you know this is actually the truth. Oh my word you I lied to my entire life. And those guys are still at it. And I got my little voice over here going guised you can do it you can’t get out and then you got all the big powerful leaders and religious leaders everywhere. And the women who are still trapped by their arms mind that get up and say Oh those are those evil wicked and bitter ex-wives. How can you trust them to tell the truth about what we’re living. I’m happy here. And you know the part they’re not saying yeah I don’t have a clue or 90 cents. My children are because they’ve taken them from me. My husband got kicked out. I get moved around but look at me. See this little smile on my lips. I’m happy. And this is my choice and you guys should leave us alone. And I’m like I’ve been on the other side of that. Their you will be burned and one they’ve never seen the other side. Amish they too because it’s awesome. I know.

[02:40:56] I know. Funny though they will say well you know how can you tell me how I feel on this side. But yet they’ve only had one experience out and they somehow devalue your experience as a person who has lived both sides know that you’re under the control the devil and you’re just speaking right now. But it just shows the power that men can have and the depths of depravity they can go to if they choose to use that power for evil. And you know I it’s hard sometimes get people to comprehend and understand why I’m against polygamy entirely especially religious polygamy and you get these people who are like yeah they that was what they wanted. I mean for some of these young girls that’s like the highest honor to get to marry that man. You know there was a higher up in the authority or whatnot. So I was speaking to a press conference up at the Capitol building about a year ago. I went to a press conference. They were going to debate House Bill 99 which would keep polygamy illegal instead of out anyway. I was there to say it needs to stay illegal to be on that side of it. And so I had a room full of you know reporters and whatnot. There wasn’t a lot of people but they one me get up and have my turn to speak. And so this is you know a lot of times you get that from people but not for some of these girls that was an honor or that’s what they wanted. And who are you to say that they can’t marry who they want.

[02:42:52] What if they did want to marry that man. And you know where but they say that they have a choice and they chose. And I said Look what I’d like all of you to do is take a minute and if you can picture a twelve year old girl or 13 14 15 you know young younger that you know maybe it’s your daughter maybe it’s your sister your niece your granddaughter whatever. Or just imagine the age group of sixth or seventh grader in your school. If one day you got the news from someone that hey did you hear Sue’s little Susie decided she wanted to be the fifth wife of Brother whoever who’s 60 you know 45. Isn’t that great. What is your gut reaction. Would you honestly be able to say well I guess that’s what Susie wanted. I’m sure there was no coercion in. I’m sure Susie didn’t want to finish school or get a driver’s license or maybe marry somebody her own age and it was amazing to watch the expression on the faces of the people in the room change as they actually pictured that because I think we all have somebody we can think of who I guess a lot of people say things like polygamous women are no different than us. They they aren’t trapped. They want to have choices. They whatever. And this is what they choose. Who do you think you are to go against that. And I like to say you’re right. And too often we look at you know you get so many people that say things like well I would never live it.

[02:44:46] I would never let my daughter live it. But if those guys want to arm who am I to stand in the way that’s their beliefs. So why wouldn’t you live it. Why don’t you let your daughter live it. The graph also includes can they see the grass. They never let you again. So they they have no idea what undue influence does to a person were. Those girls don’t want anything. They’re just doing what is. They’re just following a script there. There’s no one in them. Well there is. Well the reality is they’ve they’ve been told to want anything is evil. You have no desires or thoughts or feelings of your own. You do what you’re told to prescription. You. And so that you know as you know for all a lot of people a lot of women have been through the experience of having been cheated on or where you felt like you were cheated on you know for people that grew up in the Gentile world and dated maybe you were dating someone or there someone that you really liked and you found out they were Mesner Outhred or whatever was some other girl and that pain you feel like you were betrayed or. Many women have found out their husband was cheating on them. Plaintiveness women are no different. They have those same responses. Those are natural human reactions to that feeling of betrayal. But there is a benefit to being a polygamist and that is that you don’t have to you know how much time do you spend worrying and thinking Is my husband cheating on me as my boyfriend Shiomi.

[02:46:31] You don’t have to worry. You don’t even have to wonder because you invite them in to your living room and you can hear them in the bedroom down the hall. There’s no wonderment anymore. You get to be have a front row seat to what feels like your husband cheating on you. But at least you know where he is at and. They don’t feel any different. They do feel betrayed. And as you know that was very sarcastically put. It’s not a benefit. I’ve heard from many women as they were trying to work through it and accept it as I talk about how much it hurts to lay in bed alone at night and hear your husband having sex with someone else across the hall. Or to be wishing for some attention and some time and watch him only have time for the new wife or feel like you wish you could have a break from home and go on a trip. But it’s not your turn yet or he can’t afford to go to Hawaii five times and so whoever was lucky to go with him the one time the rest of you’re out of luck. It’s damaging and it’s extremely demoralizing. As a woman to not feel like there’s any kind of reciprocation or hope that you are required to give your everything all of your heart all of your devotion to your husband and he as he chooses will give you a little peace back but only if you’re good and only if you don’t piss him off and only if you’re not bitchy today because if you do any of those things then he will hold it over your head.

[02:48:19] And I’ve talked to women before that we’re just desperate for their husbands love and they’ve been told well if you know they’re like Well you always take marriage everywhere and you always want to sleep with her and I will well if you want me to treat you more like Mary maybe you should act more like Mary and you’re like can’t I be me and have you love me. And then if you go and go OK I’m going to act like Mary and he’s like that was a really low blow you shouldn’t just copy everything she does and don’t think is enough. There’s no way to win this yeah. You know and this is the reality of it. I’m not making this up. I in my mind I can travel back to so many conversations I’ve had with reasonable you can see how that happens. It’s not that you’re like well that makes sense that way. And you have to realize that growing up in polygamy though it does desensitize you to a point that you never allowed yourself to think about what your life could be like outside of that or for a lot of these girls you know they will brag about I’m the sixth generation of polygamists and my family line which is what that translates into is that in every area of their life from the time they were born they were surrounded by their accounts their older sisters their mothers their grandmothers all lived in this. They witnessed the truth of it that their mothers were sad that all those emotions were going on.

[02:49:54] They were the subject of the bitter reaction of the sister wife when they wanted something and they the sister wife took it out on me because my mom pissed her off you know. And they think that’s normal. They don’t know anything else. That’s just the way it is. They don’t know that there’s happiness beyond that. They don’t know that there’s anything beyond that. And I actually was talking with some people once because I thought I was shocked that there are people there are girls who will break free from a polygamist cult or at least not be in the arranged marriage strictness that will still when they you feel like they had a choice. They still went for polygamy and I’m like why. Why would any woman allow her husband to take on another wife much less that girl choose you know. And so I had thought about it a lot because I thought maybe there are people that that it that are happy in it and I don’t want to stop people if that’s truly what they’re happy with other then you still can’t control the harm it has for all the children that come into it. But I finally realized that I think I’ve got it figured out. When you grow up as part of the herd there is no bond really between you and your mother. There’s no bond real bond between you and your father. The children bond in their little groups so you have this young girl that grew up watching her mother’s all of you married the same man whatever. And her entire bond really was with her group of sisters they all grew up together they shared a room they went to school together. Everything they did they did as this grew.

[02:51:45] They’ve never in their lives. Been a witness to what a normal romantic intimate relationship can be between a man and a wife. That’s all hidden away to begin with. You know that’s not something you do publicly in front of the whole family. But also there’s a lot to be said you know you can’t be too affectionate to wife number two or the other five are going to really be on your case right. Not to mention that there’s just not time for you to develop a deep bond with one wife when you’re supposed to be taking care of multiple wives. So what happens is these girls grow up. They get married. They don’t know what to do in a house with two people. They miss that group of sisters that they bonded with. They’re going to have a hard time bonding with their husband because you don’t ever make a bond with men. They’re supposed to be off being good priest good guys and working and it’s the women and children that form the family unit and you pick and choose who you bond with there they don’t know how they don’t know how to have a healthy marriage relationship between two people. So they’re looking for that sister to come in and then like you know it’s fine you go off and do your thing husband because we’re going to have tea parties while you’re gone because that’s what our mothers did to deal with the fact that you were here and they don’t. It’s kind of like for me having that sudden realization that I was happy I they don’t know what they’re missing. They don’t know what it could be.

[02:53:27] I sat in a in a presentation at Sunstone a couple of years back where one of Winston Whitemark wives talked and he has had twenty seven wives. He has almost 150 children and she said how one day he came and was hanging out with her and said something along the lines of he just can’t imagine what his life would be like if he was stuck with just one of those women because they each you know played a part. They each provided something different that he wanted whatever. And she’s you know this was possibly kind of a funny story. She says she told him right back. She couldn’t imagine what she’d do if she was stuck with him all the time instead of you know one night out of a one night every 13 times a year or whatever it multiplies out to and I and people kind of laughed and I thought that is so sad. You’re in a you’ve been in this marriage for 20 years you have all these children together. And you can’t imagine being stuck with the guy more than a little bit you get. That’s not a relationship you’re missing out on the best of what marriage is supposed to be. The relationship seems to be I think what you driving is the relationship is with the sister wives. Yeah that’s the relationship there is no no real marriage. They’re just imitating this whole sister wife relationship that they have grown up with their entire lives. And that’s what it is. They don’t know how to have a relationship. They know how what a relationship should be with a man.

[02:55:14] And you know I’ve also heard plenty of stories that actually read the book that the Sister Wives family the Kody Brown family put out a couple months go read it and I was like oh here it is in black and white. They’re the ones that chose to put this book out here. But if you read it none of them are happy. You know they talked about how the best times they had together as Sister Wives and I read it many times I’ve heard it from many women. They get along just fine as long as he’s not in the picture. You know he goes on vacation or he’s gone on a job for a week the women all can band together and so together and cook and enjoy each other. But then he comes along and there’s no equality and then they’re against each other and they feel left out because he’s paying attention to her and I want to be the one he pays attention to. And that was something that I came to realize for myself in looking at the you know the future of living in polygamy was that I saw men had favorites. That was all there was to and they’d kick their few favorite children they had like this little nuclear family they created out of the many many people around them and it killed me to think of what was going to happen to me like what I watched happened to my mother.

[02:56:36] If when my husband got another wife and she became his favorite Am I got put out to pasture so to speak and I was just there and my good thing I did for him that he was so grateful that he had me for was that I did all the dishes and all the laundry and the yard work and took care of the kids and and did the cooking and the cleaning and that freed him up to spend time with his other wife or whatever and I thought it would kill me to watch him set me aside and someone else be his favorite. But the other side of it was I didn’t want him. I didn’t want to be the favorite either. I didn’t want to see some other soul go through life without having what she wanted. And I couldn’t see a way for all of us to have what we truly wanted and needed. I think you know there’s a reason why we use phrases like finding your soulmate or we’ll call our husband or wife our better half. We didn’t say Well she’s my she’s my better 30th you know you’re required to give 100 percent to him. He gives you a piece of the pie. And then there’s supposed to be divided among all the children and all of the. There is no man that has enough time or energy to truly nurture and raise that size with family even if you were independently wealthy and didn’t have to work. No. I sat through that Sunstone speech and I pulled out you know I was have my notebook and pen and I sat down did some quick math. So with 27 wives I think it worked out that you would get an if you were our rotation equal all things fair 13 times in a year I’d be here at night to sleep with your husband 13 times.

[02:58:33] Or whatever the number was it wasn’t very many and then I thought OK. He’s got 47 kids. I think I rounded it down a hundred and forty five hundred forty five kids. If he’d devoted a solid ten minutes to each one of those children so that they knew that hit they were heard and he connected with them. No potty breaks no meals no nothing end to end. Ten minutes of time for each of his children. It was like Oh were we’re like twenty five hours straight. And you know he can’t do that. He’s addressing them in groups. In fact with him it was interesting. I’m really not trying to pick on him but he’s a good example of some of these things. And that is that he is having so many children that he started naming them by the year they were born and all the babies born and let’s say that polio would’ve been like 90 for all these babies born in whatever year all get a name that starts be all in. So you had all these B names and then the next year it’s all the names or whatever name they choose. And it is like that’s it takes away your humanity you become part of a piece of that instead of your own person on your own two feet. You do take in this whole thing sounds like I mean you know there’s a lot of people marooned. But it’s pure in the good. Yeah it’s neglectful because you can’t be a parent to that many kids you can’t be a husband to that many wives. You nobody is getting what they want.

[03:00:25] I assume are are the men. I assume they’re unhappy. Well to see that’s the thing. There are I mean a lot of men will tell you why they have nothing to complain about. I’m the one they all come to. You know I need money for this. I need money for that. I want your attention. I want your love and I’m supposed to try to make everybody happy and it’s impossible and my life sucks. You women have it easy. You’re just worrying about yourself and your kids I have everybody to work worry about. And I there is absolutely merit to that. But I would have more sympathy for that if there are men that do. If he was honestly putting an effort into making sure everything was fair and equal and even that doesn’t work because different people have different needs at different times. So if you want to just cut and dry here’s the wall calendar we’re going go on this rotation you know for me. There was times in my life when I was going through a miscarriage or I was whatever was going on and I just felt like I needed my husband to see me and hear me and I wanted to to feel like he loved me and I was the only wife. So you’re going through the. Well let’s see your turn comes in another five days. Go find your sister what’s for comfort right. You know what I mean. But if. But then you also get the needy people who the husbands like. Well I’m trying to make sure everybody is OK.

[03:01:57] And this wife has super emotional so I’m going spend the next three days with her and everybody else is like well yes she’s emotional. But what about me that was supposed to be mine. That was you know there’s just no way to without somebody like her. Yeah. I mean men like to have actual relationships with women too so like they. There’s no way you can have any real relationship with any of the wives. I mean maybe he can have a. I mean he can have a favorite but even then with that many people he’s not going to be able to actually have you know intimate relations is more than just having sex with someone he can’t really have an intimate relationship with anybody. Yeah. And that’s true. And you know it’sa. So I read Carolyn Jessup’s book and she came up with. There’s a lot of good points she made in there too. And I watched an interview that she did. But she is talking about how her husband Meryl Jessep had his favorite wife and he also had certain of his children that for whatever reason he clicked with and that’s how we are as humans. You know people date a bunch of people and I’m like no that wasn’t a good match. That wasn’t you need to find somebody. The problem is that that happens in polygamy and everybody else by the luck of the draw you’re out. You didn’t click. You weren’t the one he connected with and it’s not your fault. We just don’t know. But you’re still stuck in your head and body you get a divorce. You can’t find somebody that’s a better fit.

[03:03:40] That’s that’s your lot. And we were also told that we should rejoice instead of having jealousy when our husband was with a sister wife. We were supposed to rejoice that they were being blessed and be so happy. And if your husband likes a different wife more than you wants to spend more time with her that’s not your business. You should be happy that he’s doing whatever he needs to make himself happy as long as he’s happy. Your concerned what you want is wicked. If it contradicts that and you out you don’t matter his happiness matters. So I think that the reality is if you could get men to be honest they do they connect with a certain wife and could be the first wife it might be the tenth wife whatever it is they find someone that they have that connection with and they it’s the same with a handful of children. I really think that we all can only handle so many people close to us. And they create you know they favor that that few kids they favor that one wife. And it seems out when I mean it’s like in Caroline’s book she talks about how Barbara was Meryl’s favorite wife. She always traveled with him and even though she had the lion’s share of his time she would about lose it probably because she’d she’d lose it when he was going to sleep with another one of his wives because she wanted to have a baby. You know it wasn’t that he loved her or that he wanted to spend time with her. That was his function in her life was to sire children.

[03:05:15] And he would go do that duty and then go back and that’s so hurtful for ever. I mean who wasn’t there. What happens to the women who are unable to bear children. No one making it does happen. It absolutely does happen. For one thing even if people aren’t outwardly doing it you know that society looks at you as oh I wonder what she did that law that the law won’t let her have children. But you know a lot of these big families end up with someone like that and you pray either you get a job since you don’t have children so as an adult. I mean this sounds really crass but it’s the reality of it. You don’t have a job. I mean you don’t have children. It’s going to be really hard for you to get any kind of welfare. So you’re an excellent candidate to get a job because then you can bring in money to help the family. You know if this other woman does then that’s really going to cut down on what food stamps she can get because now she’s employed instead of a single mother to be born. Yeah. You mean to be productive one way or the other if you can’t raise children then bring in money because also the things that matter. I look at my mother she I don’t know any other way to say other than she became the live in slave. My father no longer slept with her. It wasn’t about having sex and I remember thinking that too. Because to me is like great. So I’m beyond childbearing years.

[03:06:53] You don’t and you no longer have that duty took to procreate with me. I’m still your wife. You know do I mean nothing else. Many times it wasn’t about you you didn’t have to get to that you weren’t having sex you want that. That like you said the intimate relationship is far more. I mean it includes that. But it’s so much more than that. I want to have a chance to lay in the bed next to my husband and tell each other about our day. I feel that closeness and mother didn’t even get that. Well you’re beyond childbearing years. Never share your bed again. You just go sleep with these other women. And she was mean by the time I left she was teaching all of their children school and some of her grandchildren. A couple of my sisters sent her kids over there to get taught. She was making most if not all the meals doing the cleanup. She would round the kids up and clean the yard she’d catch up the laundry. And you know she became this robotic person she had to find her purpose in serving the family. And she had to in my opinion she has walled off her heart to not feel anymore. She’s walled off her mind to not think anymore. She’s just following directions and she will accept whatever good feelings. I can’t think of a word I want but you know that’s what she gets. That’s her life and she’s looking forward to the next life when she’ll get her reward. You can be happy then she’ll be happy. This is supposed to suck. Yeah.

[03:08:45] It’s a time of testing and trials and. And you just can’t complain about it. But this is what it’s supposed to be. If it was if it was easy you must be floating down downriver instead of fighting up the stream and so your dad is out though. Yes he got sent away. I don’t know how long ago. And I I haven’t talked to him for a long time I haven’t really wanted to. My mother as far as I can tell is still living in the Southern Utah area and still has her sister wives kids. So it’s pretty much as you David and your kids though are. Are you all out. Yes. We all left together and Nardy went back through anything once much back at this point. My five boys still live with us. My daughter started dating. We moved to Salt Lake about a year and a half after we left Fairfield. Yes. She started dating and she’s now engaged she’s going to get married in June. Congratulations. It’s very exciting yes. And she stayed in a Salt Lake with him. And in August of this year the rest of us moved to Washington state. David got a job transfer and we felt like it would be good just kind of a whole new environment. But since start over you know I have a whole new outlook on life because we grew up in Salt Lake and you know the worst year of my life were spent in short Creek and it’s been amazing to be here.

[03:10:33] So but you know it’s one of those things was like we’re doing good and you’ll have. I can’t believe we’ve made it this far and it’s almost two years and then you watch a movie and you go wow look at those people and a great big family get together in a union for Christmas or more like you know we moved here. David wanted to for him and I to go stay overnight out at the ocean that’s like two hour drive from here now is amazing. And I thought oh this is so great. I mean I love this. And then I start thinking but I’m leaving all my kids home. And I don’t know anybody. I don’t have a phone number. I can give them of who to call if they get in trouble. You know I can’t ask my sisters or my mom or my neighbors or even my daughter now check up on and make sure they’re doing OK. I mean they’re grown. I mean my youngest 10. I have my 23 year old that’s disabled a 21 year old still lives here with me. He also has his own life. There are 15 12 and 10. So it’s not like they’re little kids that are helpless. But you never know what could happen. And you start to realize how incredibly alone you are in the world because your entire society is gone and you’re doing OK as a family but you don’t have those outside connections I don’t have somebody up the street or across town that I can count on and say hey if my kids need something can you help them out. And that’s the thing I miss the most is you did have that do you.

[03:12:22] You lost your community you lost you tribe have you. Have you had any success. Like I mean you say you just moved I think in August so it hasn’t been that long. Have you I don’t know how you develop any kind of strategy for trying to develop friends I mean because it is difficult. The letter you get in life to start over like that it is harsh. You could struggle with it you know because we grew up in such a different world. How do you start eating everybody else’s dating people I went to high school with. Right. You don’t know anybody but I made some really good friends when I lived in Salt Lake. There were people that I worked with that are still there will always be very near and dear to my heart and good friends but you know they’re still Salt Lake. Work is a great college. And yeah I met some really good people I’ve become close friends of some of my professors. And that’s really awesome. Once again they’re all still back in Salt Lake. I just need to my husband has made acquaintances and some friends and stuff through his job. And my son is at that point now too. When we got up here in August I enrolled my three youngest in public school for the first time in their lives. And that was a hard one for me because you grew up here. I mean it wasn’t like I believed the church anymore but it’s still not easy to put your kids out there. You are amazed at how guilty I felt.

[03:14:01] Even though it didn’t make sense in my mind I felt guilty that I was handing over that part of their lives to someone else instead of me doing it. That was possibly my job. But I’m ashamed to say I was supposed to me by a job and I didn’t do very good damage damaged both mood and that’s what matters right. I did but it was you know when when my kids were younger the oldest ones I did really good with. And then they told us I was homeschooling them and then they told us to put them in the church school and it was a disaster. My kids picked up ideas and action. You know attitudes and stuff they’d never dealt with before. And then they shut other schools down we were supposed to go back to homeschooling but we had no money. We were living in Las Vegas. We couldn’t even afford to get a printer and the paper to print the curriculum out and we were stuck in the house 24/7. And my whole life I felt like I was doing laundry sewing cooking and all that stuff and just trying to keep them from going stir crazy. They didn’t want to do school. I didn’t wanted to school. And at that point I consoled myself with the thought that the distractions are turning any day now and math and science all that stuff. Who knows if our kids even need to learn. And the Lord could put that in their brain. They could have an instant knowledge. We have stories. You know God just gave people knowledge. That’s the easy part. God can fix that.

[03:15:36] My focus needs to be on raising them to be good faithful obedient sweet passionate. And I would focus on that. The rest we could fill in later. And then we moved then we left the church and just trying to keep our heads above water. I can think about how we didn’t do school but I was trying to help them adjust to a life of just us. You know we used to have a community and now it was us run was it and then we moved Salt Lake and I had to get in and I got a job outside of the home for the first time in 20 years. And I didn’t have the time and I didn’t feel like I could put them in public school. They were already bullied by the mainstream LDS kids there they’re. We were going to hell because we didn’t go to church. We were struggling with so much already. I couldn’t bring myself to do that. And so that was the next step. And I found the I was like I have I kept thinking well maybe what we’ll do is we’ll move up there and I’ll take a year and work with them all really hard and try and get them a little more up to grade level. So it’s not so hard. And then I’ll put them in school. Who are you kidding. You’re you’re you’re not going to do it right it’s not. They need someone besides me. I’ve been the person their entire life. Doing everything teach them everything. I felt like a be good for them to have that come from an outside source.

[03:17:05] And it would take some pressure off and give me more freedom to just be their mom and help us all work through this. I’d be at home making sure they’re okay I can communicate with the schools and we’re going to figure this out. And it was incredibly hard. My youngest didn’t he knew his letters but he didn’t know how to read yet. And it broke my heart. One day when he came to me he was looking for a video or something and wants me to read to him what this says and he said will you use your magical powers of reading. And I thought they really are magical powers and I have failed you by not teaching you should be able to read by now and though in my mind I could read I could lay out the whole thing of why we got where we are and that I had done the best I could. That didn’t change the fact that my child can’t read and I don’t have I’d failed him. You know my son that in a freshman in high school this year never even made all the way officially through second grade work and I dropped him in the 9th grade in high school. And it was overwhelming to me how I have failed these kids. This is cruel of me to do. And here I have not taught them I haven’t prepared them for the real world and all the excuses I know you don’t have to tell me.

[03:18:32] But I still fail them and I’ve up but I can’t I can’t fail him another year as hard as this is I have to let be this be the point where I say obviously I’m not succeeding here. It’s okay to let someone else help them go. And it was so hard. And I went and I met with a high school ended up horribly embarrassed as I end up in tears. I was so determined I wasn’t gonna cry. I did it anyway. Talking to the enrollment people and I’m like I am so sorry. I am asking you to take on more than you should ever have to take on. He’s 15 and he is so far behind and I don’t know what you’ll do. But in a time I it meant the world to me. If they’d be willing to take that on and if they could help them and I was so sorry I hadn’t done it and then I replayed that I’ve got one in high school one in middle school and one in elementary. I emailed all the teachers and said wrote a big old letter. So this is where we came from and I’m sorry that I haven’t done better. I’m sorry they are not up to speed. I feel like they’re bright. They want to learn and I know that’s important but just so that you’ve got it in the back of your mind if they’re backward if they’re awkward if they don’t know what they’re doing they really don’t. And they’ve never interacted with people outside of our family really their own age that never been in this setting. So if you could just keep that in mind.

[03:20:22] And I met with all of the teachers later a few months into the year they had like a parent teacher thing and with each one of them I told myself I am so sorry. And none of them felt like it was my fault. You know they have all been incredible people. You just gave them the best gift you could you gave them kids that really need to be taught. I mean they’re teachers. That’s what they do. That’s what they live for. And that’s what they told me. And like I say it’s one of those things where I can convince my mind you but are you just so much more stubborn. Shall I know this guilt. But I told them I says you know I so appreciate your patience with them and that you’re working with them. And I says you know if you ever get frustrated with them because they whatever is like please don’t take them. It’s my fault. You know touch me and I’ll do anything. And they were all just like what is wrong with this woman. We all feel that way at all. There you go. You think you just have to point out that what you’re what you’re saying right now and these are these feelings that are coming out of you are exactly how you were raised. It was all women’s fault. It was all the woman’s responsibility and it was all the women’s fault if not everything went perfect. So I mean of course you’re still going to feel that way even though you can intellectualize it. You know your emotions were built upon a system and formed in your formative years that you know you’re not going to be able to just shake based on some intellectual understanding Yeah basically.

[03:22:11] And it’s like I can make sense of it. But it didn’t change how I felt. And I just felt I had to apologize and it wasn’t just like it wasn’t just that I was trying to convince these people I was trying to convince myself. And I felt like I had failed. I’m looking at my kids and like I failed you and I failed you. And I am so sorry I did the best I could with what I had. And it wasn’t enough but I’m going to go to bat for you now. Don’t you worry I’m going to talk to your teachers. And you know we had a rumors anyway that my son’s high school that there were some kids going to come back with guns on Tuesday and the school emailed me that was all taken care of. And I’m like That’s great. And that’s wonderful. And that’s all lovely and I still kept all my kids home even though I knew that the very day was probably not the most dangerous day. CORSAN wait for things to die down if anyone is going to do anything but I couldn’t do it. And I called the schools and I’m like I’m sorry my child isn’t at school. And I kept him home because I’m freaked out. Sure I know you know I’m sure I was actually my son told me that in whatever class you know he wasn’t there on Tuesday but that he found out that only six people were. Obviously I wasn’t alone. That’s right. And you know you may have failed your kids.

[03:23:43] You know as you say and you couldn’t provide that education for them. But I hope that you can at least I hope that you can look at yourself and give yourself credit. And I know that’s hard to do. Probably coming from where you did because of my wife and I have been through a lot of the same things coming from where we came from. But give yourself credit for getting your kids out of a cult. I mean you maybe you didn’t teach them algebra but you gave them the most awesome gift in getting them out of that situation that you could have done. I mean the strength that it takes to question everything you’ve ever believed in and to take the steps to leave something that is so powerful. I mean the indoctrination of that call so toxic and so strong and to be able to to take that stands and to get yourself and your kids out an answer to create a new life when you don’t know how the world works. It’s terrifying. And you had kids we didn’t have kids. It’s terrifying. And you know I hope you can feel good about that even though not everything has worked out. You know maybe as as you would hope you know. Well I I do. Like I say I know I mean I’m not laboring under feelings of shame. I’ve been able to come to the point where I can accept that I really did do the best that I could.

[03:25:33] And yeah maybe I could have shot up for MAFF but but the other thing that has helped a lot is that the people here are so incredibly amazing and kind and wonderful and then I’ve been totally and completely blown away and I am more proud of my kids than I can even put into words. But I mean my son my youngest. He can read and he’ll read stuff to me and it’s amazing and he loves it and he’s getting quickly caught up. You know they just went ahead and put him in the right grade and they got people that are coming and helping him. And you know I owe those people huge debt of gratitude. My middle schooler I went to a thing a couple weeks ago because he’s on the honor roll. He had a six point three point six seven grade point average and in seventh grade and then he he’s come home with a couple of awards for citizenship because he’s doing all the right things as a person not just scholastically my 15 year old who just got dropped into ninth grade with less than a second grade no formal second grade education is doing amazing. He loves school and he has on his own. And this is the thing like I was like at his age I wouldn’t have been this brave or bold. He has gone and talked to all his teachers and he worked so hard. I kept telling you know you’re doing amazing. You know don’t beat yourself up if you’re not getting if you’re getting C’s. That’s incredible considering where you came from. But that wasn’t good enough for him.

[03:27:16] And he has gone and talked to all his teachers he went and stayed after did extra credit work redid some assignments and worked hard so that by the end of his first grade period I think I don’t know if it’s a thing it’s the semester they are do it different. I don’t know. He has all A’s and B’s and it’s just I’m like okay I didn’t mess you up you’re still okay and you’re going to be you know if they even if they were getting D I’d be like well this is what more can I expect. But they haven’t been able to do that. I mean it was like you don’t know eighth grade. That’s huge. You know it was huge. And I told David I like course on the other hand I’m start to think. Do they teach anybody in school. Because I thought we were going to be the teachers have made have been incredible. And I’ve been in contact communication with them. But the thing that matters. I mean the grades are awesome but the thing that matters the most is that I’m watching my kids become real people want to know that sounds weird but it doesn’t. You know we went through we went through it a degree of that when we first left you know the first time I went to the thrift store and I brought Homer a old VHS player and some 50 Cent Disney cartoons and I sat and watched their faces as they watched that stuff for the first time in their lives. And it was healing to me. They were happy. They’d laugh. They loved so you know they’d pick a favorite movie and we watched a hundred times and that was fine.

[03:29:00] And then as they started choosing what kind of music they liked not because I told them this is good music or this is what you should do. They listened to all kinds of stuff like you know I like this one right. And to discover that they had things they liked and they were allowed to like and they could choose who they were and what they wanted and the best part is so far they’ve all chosen to be amazing incredible good people and that’s what matters. And they’re happy when they’re made. And it’s like I’m like they have they have an opportunity that I could only dream of. Yes specially those three youngest they’re going to grow up. They already have but now they’re going to grow up in a much more normal quote unquote world. They don’t live in fear. You know you can give them everything that you’d ever heard as like I’m sorry. I just I love it. If you know tell me all about what you did in school today because I didn’t get to do that. I walked through the high school when I was getting my son signed up and the administrator lady there was so so sweet and she was like OK I was like you know this is the first time I’ve come inside. I mean I had gone to some college classes but this first time I’ve been in a public just like a regular old public school setting. Like well let’s take you for a tour and she walked me through the entire building showed me all of what they had available where he would be going what kind of classes. And it set me at ease. What are they. OK. He’s going to be OK.

[03:30:38] It’s all going to be OK. And at the same time I was like Oh my word to have the opportunity to do this stuff when I was a kid. And I was so thrilled to see them do it and make their choices you know and talk about what they want to be when they grow up. And the fact that they can do that they can choose it’s not well you just need to do whatever and whatever the prophet tells you that’s what you’re going to be. And if he decides to change his mind later you’ll do that too. They actually they have a life and it’s like I don’t going to live vicariously through you and someday when I know you’re all settled and there are some things I want to go back and do but it’s just incredible to watch them have a life on the ground like you. You must feel the. I think it’s beautiful because I’m just I’m watching you watch your children and you’re getting to take this immense joy and have gratitude for even the smallest thing that a lot of people you have. Well normal lives take for granted. You know you get to rejoice in all these little details. And I think that’s you know me you obviously missed out on a lot. I’m not saying this makes up for anything but yeah it’s an opportunity to have this beauty that most other people will never get to experience. There’s always a yin and yang to things. Yeah for sure.

[03:32:13] And you know now that we’ve gone through the really exciting parts I look back I learned a lot and it made me who I am what I go through again probably not and I’m not going to put myself or my kids in a position to be subjected to that kind of thing. But you know you asked me earlier was there good parts you couldn’t make good out of. But as far as if anybody was to ask me if I had any power in the world I would have to say no the good didn’t outweigh the bad. I made it okay. There are way too many that don’t know anyway despite the ban. Exactly. I didn’t become this because of what I went through. I came Ivan this in spite of it and a lot of people aren’t able to make that switch. They’re not able to make those connections. They never. Some people never get out. Oh you and others get out. You know I’ve seen so many young people that get out because they didn’t want to live it. They they wanted to watch movies they wanted to date girls and they get out but only physically them. They still believe and they honestly think they are apostates. They think they’re going to hell and that you can’t have real joy that way either. Yeah there’s at least there they’re out there making choices. But there’s always that cloud hanging over them that they think they’re wicked for doing it. That’s the saddest thing I’ve heard from people who have heard this podcast or did thisJ.W. like it was my story. And I heard from people who have been out of Jehovah’s Witnesses for decades who have never never looked at the mental side of it.

[03:34:11] They just wanted to have sex or whatever the case was they they didn’t want to live it behaviorally but mentally they were still in there that there’s a term that in the community we would call them p’o physically out mentally in. Yeah there are a lot of people who stay mentally in even years after leaving and it’s it’s just the saddest thing because they feel they still feel just like you said like their apostates. They feel shame they feel feel bad even though their they’re out. And I think that’s maybe one of the worst things to me. Well let me speak either way you’re not living to the full potential you could be. You’re not enjoying life. You’re not. You’re you’re the prisoner of someone else’s idea of what you should be. And even if you choose to do something you enjoy there’s guilt associated anger like. Well you know there is a price to pay for that. I it was really fun to go to that party and where I went to look gay and I wore pants but I don’t pay for that. It was fun but I’m going to pay for that. So let me ask you then. So you are out. You’re physically out mentally out cash. You’re Pomo. So you’ve got this you’ve got this new life your kids are starting to to. Dare I say flourish you know for you know being able to pull themselves up like this in this new scenario. So so you know you and David and the kids what are your what are your dreams what are you all.

[03:35:59] What are you individually or what do you want for your family what do you hope what are you hoping for your new life. Oh there’s so many things you know. Absolutely no one top of the list is for all my kids to be happy whatever that looks like. You know as far as temporal things I I’m hoping that we’ll be able to. Right now we’re renting and we’re looking toward buying. We didn’t know the area we didn’t dare just buy a house and be stuck in something. But we’re hoping to find a nice house preferably with like an acre or something where I can feel like we can actually put down roots. I spent so much of my life living in houses that I didn’t feel like were mine and you could be uprooted at any time I want to. I mean literally put down roots. I love to grow things and there’s been so many plants that I bought because I love that plant. I kept it in the pot because when we moved I was taken out with me and then they die and it would have been better if I’d put it in the ground at least let it out alive. You know I imagine my home being you know I’d love to have a guest room or to have my home be a place where it’s peaceful and tranquil and where people can come and visit and where my kids will always want to come back. And visit even as they go out and make their own lives in the world. And I recently I’ve been doing a lot of research on stuff.

[03:37:49] I’ve got so much going on but I just I feel this desperate push to do what I can to try to help other people. You know I have this incredible life. I’m happier than I’ve ever been in my life. But it’s hard to feel completely happy when you know the people you love and care about are trapped in hell. And so I’m trying to do research and put together for one thing like psychologic. There’s a lot of psychology about that wasn’t necessarily the studies weren’t done in space specifically to polygamy but they apply. This situation is why it makes it hard. Over here in polygamy I’m trying to pull together a bunch of that information to try to help people understand why they’re still struggling. You know they might be out physically and not mentally. They might be out physically and mentally but they’ve got all that baggage and all that noise in their head telling them that it was that they were wicked. It’s not that you were wicked. This is the way our brains work. This is what being in that situation did to you and if you can acknowledge that you can work through it and at least comprehend that it’s not the devil telling you you did wrong. You went through a hard experience. It really is. And then there are a lot of resources I’ve found just ways to try to help yourself work through it. You know whether it’s writing down how you feel and some of that stuff. My hope is to put together some in some semblance of order something that I can give to people or work with people and help them work make it through that path.

[03:39:32] You know I’m six years out. It took me a long time to reach out work to get here if I could help other people get through that transition quicker and get on to losing their lives. I would love that. And then there’s different news interviews and stories. There’s some interviews that were done by the Canadian authorities when they were deciding whether or not to legalize polygamy. And there’s some valuable testimony and stuff in there but it’s like all these long videos and I would like to put together a short a series of short documentaries where I address one issue at a time and hear all these people what they said about this issue and then tie it in with why that psychologically affects you and how it was applied and whatnot. Because I think you get it’s easier to get a lot of people’s attention if you can watch a video than reading off a page. And I don’t know about anybody else but I get on YouTube and you might start with a five minute video and before you know it you’ve watched all of them it’s been days and you learned something you know you know would you. I’m sure you don’t it’s just me. And then the other thing I’m working on is writing a book. I found it was part of what saved my life literally before I left. I turned to writing down how I felt because I couldn’t tell anyone. I it would be proof that the devil was controlling my mind and you know that I was having questions but I couldn’t deal with it anymore. It was so I couldn’t think straight. I couldn’t see straight.

[03:41:23] I had to sort it out and make sense of how I was feeling what I was thinking. So I’d write it down and I burn it. So you’d find it and have proof that I was wicked. And it helped me get control of my thoughts and make sense and it helped me reach a point where like OK I’m not actually crazy. These things make sense but then it was also scary because they made sense but they they told me that what was going on wasn’t right you know in the church. Right but kind of like I was talking about writing down the names of my nieces and nephews. I’ve gone through times when at first I was like I’m just going to forget my life from before because it hurts too much. I can think about it. I can’t think about my family. I’m going to focus on my future and on my kids and on now. And that worked for a while. But then you start to realize that there is a lot of valuable information to be gleaned and that if we forget history we’re going to be bound to repeat it. And so as things came to my mind I started just writing it out for that I won’t forget. So I can make sense of it so that someday in the future if I end up with a grandchild or someone I know one you know I found this cool cold and I’m thinking about joining I I’m like oh wait I have some stories to help you change your mind. You know I felt like I was losing it.

[03:42:47] I was forgetting and that’s what I was trying to do but I couldn’t let it happen and so I’m trying to remember and it ends up that by the time I’d written out some of the stuff and trying to make sense of it and remember things. I’ve got like over 200000 thousand words down in my computer about my story. And so I thought you know like I made my documentary and published it. I’ve done my blog and I post things on Facebook and I’ve had a lot of people react positively some negatively. There’s been a lot of comments where people are like thank you for doing this or you put into words exactly how I felt and it was. And basically I was helping people work through their own emotions to have somebody be able to put it into words what they were feeling. And then there are a lot of people that private messaged me and say thank you for posting what you did. That’s exactly how I feel. I wanted to reach out. Thank you. But I don’t even like your comment because my family will see that I liked that and it will cause a problem. But I want you to know and I figured for all the people that are brave enough to do that how many more read it feel the same but don’t speak out. How many more. Read it and disagree but it planted that thought. That’s going to keep going in the back of their mind and there will be parallels in their life that doesn’t make them look out a different way.

[03:44:16] And so I thought if I could make a book or two because it’s huge amounts of information it would be a. You know I spent a lot time trying to explain things to people and I feel like I spent hours as you can tell now trying to explain that if I could put it in a concise way in a book it could reach so many more people and maybe help more people. And then I could use that as a foundation if you could read that and that resonated with you. If you have questions I want to help you with the next steps. I would like to do more. It’s like I think everybody should feel that happiness and I feel like there’s a path to doing that. And it’s not through religion in my opinion. It’s not through the AFL. Yes for sure. It’s through your own the power of your own thoughts in mind and you have to be able to get past that indoctrination and believe in yourself and love yourself and then you can start to have that that happiness. So that’s a I don’t have a job right now. Rock my ankle the end of 2015 and so the jobs that I used to do. I can no longer do. One of my dear friends in Utah told me that that was the universe hit me with a two by four because I was ignoring it and not doing what I should have been with my life. And it has definitely helped. And I was like yeah I can kind of see that. I kept thinking you know I’m doing these jobs but I felt this poll that I should be writing and trying to do stuff but money mattered.

[03:46:02] I had to help taking you know you mentally and losing you. Well no it was more of a. And I didn’t know I didn’t see it that way. It turned into being. I mean I agreed with the idea this the universe trying to kind of poke and say you should go into this kind of the whole gut feeling. And I’m like yeah I should. But I got to keep making money I got to take care of that. You know I got to help and there’s like you really should have something come up. I think I wish I could but I got to do this and once I broke my ankle there were no more debates. I was out of the scene. And it changed. It’s changed a lot of things in my life in my circumstances that have been immensely helpful even changing how I interact with my family. The person I was the person that had done everything and now I was the one that couldn’t do anything and everybody stepped up and that didn’t go away. You know my husband does a lot of dishes now. He he did all the cooking the meals and that didn’t stop. Now there’s more of a of a balance and it wasn’t his fault but he wasn’t doing it is just none of us ever thought of it any different now. It kind of hit a reset button but it also made it where I couldn’t do much else. And so I started doing more on trying to remember and write.

[03:47:34] You know I’m laying in bed I can’t get up because my ankles and a Casten or in a splint and so on the one hand I don’t have a job. But I feel like my life is almost an engrossed in what I feel like as more of my mission. I want to help people. I want to. I would love to believe down in my heart that something that I wrote or said or did was a catalyst to help someone else somewhere have that aha moment. This is what happiness feels like love more than anything. Yes that is beautiful. I would tell you that if you continue to put your story out there you will definitely help people whether they ever tell you or not. I mean I I’m just a guy sitting in his basement with a microphone who likes listening to podcasts. And so I thought people kept telling me I should write a book and I’m more of an auditory learner so I thought well I’ll create a podcast and I’ll tell my story. So I created the podcast. I told my story and I know for a fact that at least two people have left the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses because of that and. Yes. Yes. It feels so amazing. And so and those are again it’s like what you said which I thought was kind of a a beautiful insight that I guess I hadn’t really thought about which is that for every person that tells you it’s the whatever it was that you said or did help them or that they liked something that you had written. There are other people who may not hit that like button or may not ever tell you that it’s made an impact on.

[03:49:29] And they may not even make an impact today. It might be 10 years down the road something hit them suddenly and they say oh you know what that guy told me about that 10 years ago on some blog. You just then my know who it was or where they heard it but it stuck in their mind and it might be that it was a combination of what you said and five other things that happened over the next year and you’ll never know and they may never realize it and that’s not the part that matters to them is that I want to be part of the you know the resistance be part of the other side that’s helping people find their freedom. You can’t force it on people but when they’re ready they need the tools that can help them. Turn that crank in their mind and switch to flip the switch. Yeah well you can’t just think in a different light and you don’t know there are so many parallels and crossovers between all these different cults. So in fact I think the last interview I just did and released David had mentioned that it was Leah Remini his program on Scientology that really kind of struck him and made him realize that oh I’m in a cult because Jehovah’s Witnesses may not have exactly the same beliefs as Scientology but they have the same mechanisms. And I mean I’m just listening to your story here and I think that it helps to have someone from a different community in a different voice say the same basic thing in a different way than it does.

[03:51:16] And I’ll say I know that because shortly after we left I got on YouTube and it started with I’d always been fascinated with the Holocaust. Warren Jeffs taught us a sliver of it. And I then found out that most what he told us was pretty twisted Macbeth’s. I started watching some interviews of that and that led in to these interviews these people talking about a cult. And it’s so much easier. It’s safer I guess for your psychology for your psyche to watch something. You know I could watch something about a Jehovah’s Witness telling their story and I’m like okay. We already know they’re the bad guys. You know they’re crazy. We know there are. And so as you listen to it you’re going. How could anybody believe that this is insane and it’s so easy to condemn what they’re doing and then if you stick with it long enough at some point that little light comes out and you’re like wait a minute. That’s really no different than what I was doing. You know if a Jehovah’s Witness was to watch my testimony they’d be like Oh what an idiot she is and we’re holy cow we’re doing the same thing. We’ve got a different guy at the top but the process the thought control. There’s really no no big difference as it’s all the same. And so if you can find someone who’s not from where you came from you may have better success at breaking through that protection and you know crack through that protection you put around your thoughts because it’s OK to think that about Jehovah’s Witnesses. This is like a person who has been abused who would never stand up for themselves.

[03:53:08] But the move is someone else being abused and suddenly the impact of that really hits them they can be righteous or angry for that other person more than they can be for themselves. Yeah. And I even experienced something similar to that. There was a program I went through up in Salt Lake called the woww program women of worth. And so a bunch of women who all had been through hell some of them where they had struggled with addiction or whatever it was basically we all came through the door the first day broken some having been through our experiences and we would meet and you know we talk about things and the whole program was immensely helpful to me. But at one meeting we had where we all were supposed to share can you remember the basis of it. But when it came around the room to my turn it had struck me as like you know the one thing I’ve noticed and it’s the same thing that I am going to tell you about myself is that every one of us allowed to whatever degree you wild use that word allowed ourselves to be in horrible situations. We were being harmed in whatever way and we allowed that to go on. And the thing that finally made us act and change something was when we saw it affecting our children. We could deal with that. You all treat me like crap. I deserve that. You start treating my child like crap and Alderson’s like how dare you as a sew in in what we saw as being spurred into action to save our children.

[03:55:00] Our children saved us from what we were part of because we left for them and that saved our own sanity our own lives. You know you from one end of the spectrum to the other whatever bad thing you were part of because you left for your children you saved yourself also and you didn’t you know you’re like No it was my fault. When you are being bullied that when you watch your child being bullied it gives you a whole different perspective. And it’s you know that was with our children but it works the same with other people you know it’s just like you said you allow things in your own life or you won’t stand up for yourself. But when you see it happening to someone else see you it gives you a different perspective. For one thing. But being someone who has endured and you know how hurt that person feels being treated like that gives you the strength to be like How dare you do that to a person to stand up for that. Now also like a course I want stand up for myself. But then it helps kickstart that thought process in your mind. I don’t deserve that. There was one thing that they told us in that wild program that hit me really really hard because you know I’ve never had a lot of self confidence I have you know I hate cameras. On and on and on. I don’t like myself. I didn’t like you know I was always been fat always been ugly all you know the whole list of things.

[03:56:43] And one of the exercises we did was they said I think we had to write down things that we think of ourselves and it seems. It’s embarrassing if saying anything positive. I mean how vain could you be. And so the easier ones are the ones you’ve heard all your life is all the negatives. I’m ugly I’m fat. I’ve never been any good. I’m not smart. And you write it all down and then they tell us to imagine that you’re talking. Imagine your five the five year old version of yourself and imagine you’re talking to that 5 year old version of yourself. And what would you say to yourself at 5. Would you read off that list of things. And the reality is I start thinking about and like that’s the things I heard everyday. And there are it was killing me inside. And then you end up like I told David I said I would go think I’m ugly crying. I mean this is not that cute know little sniffle here wipe out at the corner of your eyes with your tissues is all out. Sobbing in a room full of people. When you finally go it’s okay to feel bad. It’s OK. That that hurt. And that’s ok. To finally realize that all those horrible things people said Hugh that they never should have said that and who what were they thinking to say that a five year old child and the whole point of it was that you need to be as gentle with yourself now as if you’re talking to that 5 year old child. Look at the things you do get caught if you got your favorite child. You did awesome on that.

[03:58:26] And to you know that was an extremely difficult process. You know the other thing response do is go up and look ourselves in the eyes in the mirror and say all these things good things you know tell yourself you’re beautiful and you’re a mate. I could not do it. I set a bathroom and I cried and I couldn’t do I felt like a liar. How could I not. That’s one thing. I was determined that I was not a liar. I would never lie. How could I lie to myself. And I sat there and cried because I wasn’t beautiful and I wasn’t amazing and I wasn’t any of those things. And I admit I’m still not quite where I feel like I can do that and feel entirely honest but I’ve made a lot of us. But to me it just went to show how damaging the things that we say are now even if we realize that you you like it when they make a mistake. Well that was stupid. You’re an idiot and you may not have meant that you were upset. It sticks and it matters to them. Oh you you did. When you grew up in a society where that is the attitude of the entire society especially towards girls then you know all I could think is I’m looking at myself I’m discovering all these things I’m realizing why I act the way I do I realizing why I struggle with these things. And so I got my associates degree in psychology. Myerson shut up last August right before we moved.

[04:00:07] I chose classes that I felt like applied to what I felt like I had to understand how this works. Why does this happen. I took abnormal psychology I took personality theory and through that I was like It’s not that I’m crazy. That’s what these things do. And if these circumstances made me this way can pretty well be sure that every other woman child that I knew in that religion is damaged in the same way that we can fix it if we can recognize it and make some changes. And it was. It was almost funny. I was in my psychology class you know here I am old enough to be the mother of everybody else in my class. And when she starts talking about learning about anxiety she starts to read down the list of the symptoms. And here I am 44 years old out of the church for like five years or four years whatever and I’m sitting in class and I start crying. I really don’t cry as much as I make as I make it sound just like all those years when I was in the church and I thought there was something wrong with me. I thought I was having a heart attack. I thought there was something physically wrong and I didn’t want to find out because I didn’t want to know if I dropped dead that was fine. In fact maybe it would release me from this torture sooner than those young men and anxiety attack real. And I hadn’t thought about it for years. But as she started describing it I remember that I basically lived in a state of anxiety attack for so long but then also I realized I haven’t done that for a while.

[04:02:16] And how nice that is. But even even that that little bit of knowledge and understanding that no you’re not about to have a heart attack. This is your body’s natural reaction to stress. You were having an anxiety attack and it’s not because you’re weak it is not because the devil whispering to you it’s all you trying to protect you from a danger that it can sense that it knows is harmful to you whether you can comprehend it in your mind or not. Yeah. No it’s I think that anyone who leaves code should be either taking a class in psychology or exposing themselves to it in some way because they will learn a lot about themselves and release themselves of a lot of pain associated with normal human behavior. And it is like oh you’re telling me this is normal. I was doing it was working right. You know it wasn’t wrong. And it really is it’s just another layer of peeling away that harm and those false narratives to understand. Now I wasn’t wrong for having an anxiety attack. It made sense with what I was living through. My mom was working. This is OK. And you know to to be armed with some knowledge it just helps you in every way to get through life. Yeah. As opposed to being isolated in a cold and having very little knowledge your book. Well exactly. You know I think I mentioned that Warren Jeffs had started saying that once you girls are married you shouldn’t be talking to your mothers.

[04:04:04] You know you absolutely shouldn’t be telling your husbands secrets or his family secrets to your mother if you have issues you go to your husband he’s your head. All that and even as a grown married woman I was like Well I mean I believe we need to do that. But my mother’s only real friend they have you know and I and I hated the thought of handing my daughter off and then thinking she couldn’t touch me if she needed to. But after I got out at all the pieces start falling into place and it made sense. I found out the stuff Warren Jeffs was doing and I thought I can imagine my daughter being in that position coming around coming back to me because I’m someone she trusts as her mother saying mother I know that these things that my husband is doing to me and having me do is righteous and that I need to be obedient. But I’m so uncomfortable with it and I feel bad because that must mean I’m wicked and her mother has her mother be like he’s doing what. Because I know. But she doesn’t know she doesn’t know how our own body works because we’re not supposed to teach there. Warren Jeffs was telling these very young girls that he was abusing that having an orgasm. Was that fullness of the Spirit of God that was the burning within and they could only get it in connection with him and they didn’t have a clue. You know view is was a physical follows exactly that is the way it works. He was having them do all kinds of unspeakable things. And I’ve been told I haven’t seen the letters but I have no reason to doubt it.

[04:05:57] I’ve been told that everybody had to keep writing their confession letters and here’s these little girls being directed to do things that their soul told them was wrong but their husband who is actually the prophet of God tells them this is right and righteous and they were writing confessional letters pleading for forgiveness because of how uncomfortable they felt doing the things he told them to do and they knew that it was what God wanted. And he was making a fight against their soul that was telling him this isn’t right you shouldn’t have to do this and he would just then drag him down even further and tell you you’re you have to shut out your own soul. You can’t have that anymore. And anyway the damage done by cults I don’t think we could even imagine or measure it in the research I’ve done I’ve seen where I can remember who it was. But there is a psychologist that said that if we could eliminate childhood trauma especially sexual trauma. But you know the different abuse neglect if you can eliminate childhood trauma the DSM manual which is now like about 700 pages of mouse tape. I got a copy from taking classes would become a pamphlet. I want to thank Brenda for making herself available to tell her story and for being so open and real about it all. I know it wasn’t likely easy to talk about all that if you’d like to continue the conversation. You can go to the link in the description for this episode from my site where you can leave comments for every person that is interviewed. They will see the comments and they can reply and you can spark a conversation with them.

[04:07:49] If for some reason the links don’t show up in your particular podcast app you can go to shun podcasts dot com and on the episodes page you’ll see each one with the link for commenting. You’ll also have links for the songs that each person chose to represent their journey which unfortunately I can’t play on here due to copyright issues. You also see links to different resources that are mentioned by each guest. Ways that you can support the show. Anything you might want or need is there on that page. Speaking of resources Brenda actually has a documentary out on the YouTube’s called if this is heaven. Give me hell. It’s another look into her story and you’ll see some photos and such in it if you’d like to learn more. It’s a 20 minute short documentary and it’s well worth the watch. So again it’s called if this is heaven. Give me hell. And it’s on YouTube and I’ll go ahead and place a link in the notes for this episode as well. For that she also has a blog that I’ve linked to if you’d like to keep up with some of the developments in the the cult of the LDS and you can learn more there as well and you know of course by now we all know the hashtag meta that’s trended throughout the world. But there is another hashtag hashtag me 3 written out Emmi H R E that refers to polygamy. And so if you want to support that you can maybe learn something from that. Or you know maybe that that’s you know I don’t know who’s listening.

[04:09:28] So maybe that’s part of your life as well. And that hashtag me 3 can help bring some awareness to what polygamists go through. If you’d like to learn more about my story and the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses you can listen to my podcast series called ThisJ.W. life or you can find more out at thisjwlife.com if you’d like to support this podcast. You can do so in a few ways. First I love seeing comments and conversations on the shud podcast dot com site because it supports those who are being so open and vulnerable and telling their stories you know before before every interview. People are nervous to sell their stories before even after they’ve done the interview before the week before when I tell them that their episode is going to come out. Usually people are nervous. You know it’s it’s scary to put yourself out there on some level. It’s very freeing but it’s also a little nerve wracking and you never know how it’s going to be received. So it really helps to see that that people can reflect your stories back to you that they’ve lived some of that as well to find that common ground and to just be encouraged by others so first and foremost that’s one of the ways to support the show. Second I love seeing five star reviews pop up on iTunes with great comments. It really helps lend credibility to what we’re doing here. It’s encouraging to me personally and it may help others define the show and get help that they might need as well.

[04:11:00] And finally you can support the show’s ongoing monthly cost financially by becoming a patron at patreon.com/shunned. If you want to help out that way there’s also a link on the Web site to the patriarch for this particular show. All musical support for the show is from Poddington Bear and next month we’ve got our first international interview as I interview a former member of Jehovah’s Witnesses from the United Kingdom. His name is Mark not just a great guy but he is also some of those who listen. If you’re familiar with the forum jehovahs-witness.com if you’re a member of that forum then you know Mark as pale imper on there. So join us again in June. Learn more about him his journey and even some things that recently happened as a surprise at the end. So as always love others do no harm and go be happy.

DJ Is Shunned By Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:10] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we get to hear stories from people that have been silenced by controlling religion. Today we’re going to hear from D.J a guy that is shunned by Jehovah’s witnesses so that they don’t have to face the truth. Before we get started I wanted to introduce the new format. Some of you probably noticed that things have changed its arms from episode to episode. And honestly that’s because I’m trying to find the right mix here. When I was done doing my other podcast called this JW life where I told my personal story. I was contacted by others and people wanted me to help them tell their story. To be quite honest I wasn’t really ready for it. Telling my story was a big deal. I was kind of overwhelmed by it all to some extent. And so when others wanted me to help them to tell their stories I was doing it. But honestly I wasn’t that comfortable with it. So at first my goal was to keep myself out of the interview. I didn’t want to make this podcast about me. I just did one about me and that level of vulnerability was kind of tiring so I felt like I was thrown into an interviewer’s role but I wasn’t really comfortable with my abilities as an interviewer. It’s not something I’ve ever really done before so as a result I would remove my audio and produce more individual stories. Well over time some of the people that I interviewed asked me to be in the story with them.

[00:01:41] They said it would make them more comfortable but honestly it was making me more uncomfortable. Then came David in these last episodes and his story was so involved that I couldn’t edit it. I had to leave me in it and it kind of pushed me out there as an interviewer. I received some feedback from people that liked having me in it more. And I’ve been asked to be in it more by the people that I’ve interviewed. So now you’re stuck with me. I’m finding my voice as an interviewer I hope and people seem to like it so I’m going to try to go ahead and settle in here. Now I’m feeling more comfortable as an interviewer but I’m trying to stay out of the way as much as possible because I still want the focus to be on the person that I interview. I hope to add my own flavor in my own way. With this episode the podcast will go over 7000 downloads which is amazing to me. ThisJ.W. life my original podcast which covered my story and the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses has now gone over 18000 downloads so it’s exciting to know that these are making some sort of a difference and to hear feedback from people. So let’s go ahead and get into a story and afterword I’m going to give some more information that you’ll want to stick around for. My name’sD.J. I’m 27 years old. I was one of Joves witnesses and I am shen. How did you come to be one of Jehovah’s witnesses you know like what age were you were you born in. Did you come in later. How that how that developed.

[00:03:23] So I was actually born into the Jehovah’s Witness religion. So that was just a lifestyle that I had always known so that that would be making me a third generation member. So my my grandmother met a man in the 60s and she had my dad and I and his sister with a man and they were both worldly at the time so obviously worldly meaning somebody who doesn’t serve or bowed down or get baptized by water immersion to Jehovah or more importantly the Watchtower organization and its interpretation of the Bible. But these these were just two people that met each other had children and they were just they themselves trying to grasp you know the wonders of the world and questioning death. Why do we die. What happens to our dead loved ones. Is there life after death. So to the best of my knowledge and later in my life as I’ve come to find out that that man that she had met it was just a real you know real piece of shit. Basically he he was my dad’s real dad but my real grandfather and my grandma tried to make it made to work with him. But ultimately he wanted nothing to do with her or any any of his children. So later in the 60s she separated from that man and met my step grandfather. And he was he was in the war. And they would they would get to know each other and decide ultimately through friends eventually that they met that that they were gonna become one of Jehovah’s Jehovah’s Witnesses and raise their children. My dad and his his sister in that organization.

[00:05:17] So my dad was born into it you know basically born and raised in it at 2 years old he was introduced to it from his you know his parents. And so yeah he grew up as a Jehovah’s Witness. And that’s basically how I would be later introduced to my dad you know he made it sound growing up that he was never really into it. It was just kind of a formality. My grandma my grandfather was extremely possessive and often times you know physically and emotionally abusive. And he would later become an elder and he would still have courses. That’s just kind of the process the ladder you climb. Yeah. And my my grandma my grandfather was a pretty successful person. He owned his own business and my dad would grow up to work with him. And at a certain point as my dad was getting older both him and his sister started getting you know into trouble with bad association and and he would ultimately be you know his sister before him got baptized and he she was younger than him at the time but I think she was I don’t know 18 or 19 when she got disfellowshipped for having relations with an unbeliever of Jehovah’s Witnesses and she would later get disfellowshipped for her wrongdoing or unrepentant ness and she would never return. So it’s been 30 30 year almost 30 years now that she’s been out and my dad like I said he wasn’t baptized when his sister was and he ultimately made the choice to to leave as well and kind of do his own thing and be worldly and go off and live the life that he thought he was missing out on and it just didn’t.

[00:07:18] You know like I said my dad growing up. He went and he just made it seem like it was nothing he was really really interested into. You know he was just something that he had to do. So once he was out of you know the organization he moved to theL.A. area along the coast and he just spent a couple of years outside the organization Dušan is his own thing and at which point he ended up having my daughter my half sister with a woman and they went to stay together but they would share custody of of her. And then you know a year or two after that he would he would meet my mom outside of the Joves Witness organization and she was worldly and she was she was raised Catholic. So she was raised around religion herself. And when they met each other they would talk about beliefs often. And my dad was trying to tell her exactly how he grew up in the good things about the organization and no doubt you know you can’t blame her for when she found out exactly the ins and outs of the organization and what he was raised in. She she’s like What are you doing. You have the truth. So ultimately she would convince my dad to return and start studying but. Yes. So they were both out when they met. And she. She like I said would convince him to ultimately return and for them both to study so and would take into consideration at this time. Now I keep my mom’s pregnant with me. So I think that that was maybe a determining factor.

[00:09:07] Two of them just worry about evaluating their life situation and you know trying to understand their next move. So I think down the line. Yeah yeah. And I think it is more out of pressure. You know when people get to that point in their life where they have to re-evaluate their situation because they might not be in a good place and I know my dad told me that when he was outside of the organization he got a you know he dabbled in drugs and got into trouble and obviously their lives were the best that they could be and they had to say you know sit down and talk to each other about okay what are we going to do now we’re you know pregnant withD.J me. So they would return. And then like I said my mom was baptized with me and they would go to Vegas actually in a look. So they got married and then shortly after that they got baptized. Yeah. So then. So then were you baptized while she was pregnant. I believe so yeah. I believe yes she was she was still pregnant. They both got baptized together. Maybe there’s some way you could have gone back in an older baptism somehow. Yeah I never I never considered that maybe baptized twice a double dip it was invalid. OK. Yeah. All right so then that’s really interesting I think that there are a lot of people who when they have kids start to re-evaluate things and it’s fascinating that it happens to have been your mom.

[00:10:49] That was never a witness that you know got you guys back into your dad back into it. That’s that’s a unique course. So then so you know your parents are baptized obviously you you come into the world. You know what. What did it mean to you to be a Jehovah’s Witness back then. You know what. What was the world view you were given you know even as a little kid. Well like I said it was just something I always knew was just a way of life. That was the condition. You know into me unbeknownst. So this was typical. I just thought that every family was like this and I would later come to find out that that wasn’t the case when I would start school. So growing up you know before school I remember a lot of arguments a lot of verbal abuse from both ends of my parents just because of them going through this struggle of trying to make it work with a new child in this organization. My dad was starting his own business and. And at the time my mom and dad were both fighting for full custody of my half sister. So before school I remember you know my earliest memory was 2 years old and it was just extreme extreme arguments and verbal abuse and shouting and that’s just my earliest memories of my family before school so. But when I started school you know that’s when the indoctrination really kicked in because Jehovah’s Witnesses right off the bat you know if your parents are really trying they’re going to they’re going to help you understand that you’re one of Joves witnesses in how to stand up for your beliefs.

[00:12:44] So the first day of school I mean weeks before the first day of kindergarten I remember my mom sitting down with me and going over what would be my first demonstration essentially of walking up to my kindergarten teacher and telling him in front of the class and their parents that I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and handing him you know a Jehovah’s Witness publication which I don’t exactly remember which one it was but it was probably life harder to get here by evolution or creation. So then I went straight into that I didn’t salute the flag and the reason why. And and just went into that whole mumbojumbo and standing up for my my faith. So you know my belief system right off the bat wow and you had to do that. Did you say in front of other kids and like their parents. Yeah absolutely. The orientation there’s Tom. Yeah exactly. So the first day you know all the kids are sitting around on the ground and you know you’d be introduced by the teacher and you’d stand up and say your name. And that’s when I had my little my book or whatever it was exactly I don’t I don’t remember but that’s what I would stand up and say you know I’mD.J. I’m one of Joves witnesses and you know I don’t salute the flag and you know in my mind it was just raising controversy right off the bat. Yeah it has a place for a kid that early. Right. And I remember pretty distinctively wondering why it necessarily hadn’t had to do that like that.

[00:14:23] Yeah but I didn’t really understand the ramifications of it to its fullest extent because I was so young but it did raise you know an eyebrow to me like you know why is this absolutely necessary. So it was and it was it was already a daunting enough task to stand up in front of all of those people that I didn’t know. You know that’s that that young. And right off the bat just kind of Varty chevin endowments throats like this is what to be expected from me. That’s yeah that’s you. Welcome to your life right. You mean as early as that you know. WILDER Yeah that’s right that’s right. I have to put on a kid and obviously like you said it didn’t have to be done that way that could have been done in private. That was just making a point and making a spectacle. Right. And I think looking back at it you know my mom always seemed to be that type of person where it was like all or nothing. You want to stand out and you know make a difference and stand up for your beliefs. She was a bit of an extremist and it that was just that it was just one of those things that was ingrained to me even before I started school weeks prior that we were going to sit down and make sure that everything was accordingly so that there was no hiccups and that it seemed like this was something that meant a lot to me that young when in actuality it didn’t. It was just something that was driven into my head. Wow.

[00:15:52] All right so then how did things progress you know at school or even you know like in the Keenum Hall how were how are things going back then. Well it’s so easy it’s with school the you know the introduction to each following school year would continue with the same familiar routine. Taking a stand for my beliefs in front of my new teacher first thing before each and every school year. You know while being in the public school system so this is this it became something that I would start to avoid if at all possible eventually praying that my mom would just forget to prepare me for that first day of school. And you know as a Jehovah’s Witness in school I was obligated to not only share with my school teacher that I don’t celebrate any holidays that you know obviously includes birthdays but explain to my new friends or acquaintances you know how as a Jehovah’s Witness as I was told not to call them friends so this didn’t seem to cause any issue with my teachers or schoolmates as well but I remember distinctively in the second grade that kind of changing for me. So it changed for me in the sense that I became aware that when there was holiday events or it was somebodies birthday I would be given extra work or go color in a different corner than where the activities were taking place or oftentimes being physically segregated from you know the other kids so as not to see the fun that they were having at somebodies birthday. So this is when I really started to wonder why I couldn’t be with my friends and basically having a vacation from the normal school day to you know laugh and play and eat cake.

[00:17:40] So you know as a young kid the only question I have questions that I started thinking about was why can it play with the other kids and more importantly why did they get cake and and why couldn’t I. So these these things I remember my mother trying her best to explain to me as a two year old that ultimately the reason why. Can I have cake is that it would upset God. So you know in my mind thinking back at that it’s like kids that young can’t reason know or have the concept of faith that you know I was a PEMRA. I was only projecting what was driven into my mind. I knew that it made my family happy. The yeah you know there in the Bible where it condemns cake Yeah it is so it’s so silly. So then how did things you know how are you doing. So obviously you know school is it is drama really. I mean it’s not not going to make you happy because you’re you know it’s just a place where you have to confront all of these issues that aren’t even your issue that your parents issues or issues of religion that they took on. What about. So you know you’re going to the Keenum Hall as this young person you know. What’s that like. How is that impacting you. Well I would see that you know the early stages that my parents would my parents would take us to as much meetings as possible. They were never extremely regular you know. Mind you they were in their early 20s.

[00:19:14] You know my mom had me when she was 19 years old so going through the school system I I remember my parents being the youngest people so a lot of kids thought my parents were actually my older brother sister. So going to going to meetings obviously in their 20s it was pretty inconsistent it was hit and miss. But it was almost that they you know preached do as I say not as I do. You know especially when it came to schools like you know take this huge stand for your belief. But you know we would be really hit and miss with meetings. And it really didn’t make sense. But what I realized was that the Kingdom Hall was a place where I actually could have some friends but these were by choice. Naturally they were just kind of almost arranged friendships because these were acceptable kids to associate with outside of you know anything else that you knew. So yeah. So the early days of you know being a kid in that organization that was 0 7 6 and 7 when you know my parents were already making me sit down and do the checkmarks like and yet pay attention in any form that I could like you know put a checkmark by God or Jesus or when we turn to the Bible those things if you know something to just preoccupy a child then I remember distinctively not wanting to you know essentially do that. I’d rather doodle or draw or color. And you know even at six or seven that’s not that that wasn’t acceptable.

[00:20:54] I remember being pulled out yanked by my arm outside and getting spanked because I wasn’t paying attention and apparently paying attention meant that I would have to be like I said when Jesus was announced from the stage Stager Jehovah I’d make checkmarks and that was what I was supposed to be doing not not color so I’d get it. And you know I get Spade’s I get in trouble if I wasn’t doing those things. Isn’t it amazing the the pressure that is put on kids to live up to something it’s kind of like you brought out like you know here you were having to like go to school and confront all of these things and yet your parents weren’t even a regular at the meetings you know you were taking more of a stand as a child than they were and of course your mom never even grew up in it. So she has no idea. Much like same with my parents. They grew up they didn’t grow up in it. So they had no idea what they were sending me to do every day. They had no concept of the stand I was being forced to take for them. And they I don’t know that they would have taken that stand. I don’t know if you know I mean you’d have to put them in that position. But right of course my parents were very regular and very militant. Sure. But you know it is funny just to see the the. No it’s not funny it’s sad to see the pressure put on these these young kids. So your year in the Kingdom Hall you know you’re starting to be indoctrinated really you know by just having to pay attention and you know they’re already kind of showing you you know that it’s works. You know this is a religion of works.

[00:22:45] It’s all about sitting there and making a checkmark when they say a word or something like that it’s not right. It’s not about who you are. It’s more about what you do. So then what was it you know at home you had said that before school year your parents were you know stressed out and fighting and establishing businesses and and you know getting involved in this cult that required a lot out of them. So how did that kind of progress at home. You know as you as you start getting into Year started getting a little older you know around and started going into your teenage years on hand for young adulthood. What was that progression at home like. Well you know it was it was really extremely hectic because my parents were still fighting for full custody. This was a battle that took a long time actually. And it you know on top of them trying to establish my dad my father’s business they were dealing with the court system and they’re also like you said programmed to believe that they were absolutely required to make as many of these meetings as possible be out in the field Ministry as well. This is this is something that is almost like a full time job within itself let alone raising three children because you know my parents ended up having another brother that’s five years younger than me. So now it’s me my brother and my sister living in this house. And it was my my childhood wasn’t extremely horrible by any stretch but it was just maybe it was I don’t know it but it didn’t seem like that.

[00:24:22] Yeah but there was a lot a lot of arguing verbal abuse and it was just being home was it. Oftentimes it was the best thing ever or the worst thing ever. It was never a real medium. It was just up or down and it was dependent on the mood of my parents that day. I understand I feel you there. Neira Yeah. All right. So then you know that was kind of volatile. How how were you progressed. Like were you making any progress. You know as as the years went by in the religion you know how did you you know progressed a baptism or you know what was that process like for you. Well I want to be baptized till I was about 17. So back end up going through the motions as a child my only in my mind did as much as my parents you know. Like I said it was something where it might be a Joerres when his parents can live by do as I say not as I do and my parents like I said we’re never really regular growing up. And it was something in my mind that I said well I’m only going to try as hard as you. So in meetings and stuff like that where were just formalities. For me it was just something that was required of me. So it was never anything that I really took to heart or anything that I really dove deep into wanting to understand because it was just a little too difficult for me to I understand some of the rules and regulations even at the youngest of ages.

[00:26:07] You know I don’t understand why even playing outside let alone kids from school I remember you know. You know about to be in middle school still in elementary school fifth grade having you know friends say Hey can I come over and they would come out with me to parent my parents car. You know as kids do it it just kind of sway their parents decision. And I would have my my buddy by me and I’d be like you know that can so-and-so come over and they would they would say you know my mom would say no. Not todayT.J. not today. And that was always something that was you know I did try over and over again. And you know once I would get home I would ask my mom why. So why can its own so come over. And I was just told yet again that as one of Joe’s witnesses that God did not approve of that type of association being that they were world. So I did it. I didn’t fully understand exactly what it was that made them so unworthy of my friendship. And so I was slightly confused to say the least. But after the following day or the weekend would pass after you know asking if that friend would come over. You know my my buddy would come up and ask you know why can’t I come over or if I can’t come to your house. Do you think you could come over to mine. And I knew in my you know in my mind that if my parents weren’t gonna allow a worldly person to come over to my house that there wasn’t a chance in hell that I’d be able to go to theirs.

[00:27:33] And this would affect my my relationships with kids at school because you know I would just imagine they’re there. Parents were aware of their child wanting to hang out with me or vice versa. And you know just being told me relaying that information to my buddy of why they can explain to them that they were actually his witness and that they didn’t believe me they believe the same things that my my parents did and that was unacceptable. I could just imagine them going back home and telling their parents that and how offended they must have been and probably told their kids like how about you avoid that person. Yeah it’s very arrogant. Yeah it is. And growing up I would just get to see more and more how Jehovah’s Witnesses are very entitled and they feel superior. So that was something that was starting to get ingrained into my mindset was like people just weren’t acceptable you know they were just they were just you know cogs in the world somebody that was there but not really. Absolutely. So then that you as you were growing up did you. It doesn’t sound like your parents were probably the type that they ever like auxillary pioneer or anything. Did you ever get you know drug through those processes. You know that when it happened until my mom would reach her mid 30s I think so. My dad growing up was never the spiritual head. And to this day never has one. Yeah.

[00:29:13] So he was always just somebody who was just so interesting because he was the Jehovah’s Witness before you know my mother you know growing up he knew exactly what it was that you were supposed to do to climb up the ladder. My dad you know from what he said some deep conversations that I had with him as I would start to drift away was that it was never something that he did either but he knew it as the truth. So in his mind that was good enough. And that was not the case with my mom. She always wanted him to be the spiritual head and pushing for you know family study and taking the sound field ministry. And it was it was it was like pulling teeth with my dad as much as it was for the kids to get ready for meeting or service. And my mom is always the driving force that that person that was really the one that got us going. So you know might like I said my mom my mom or dad didn’t really do anything and the truth as far as like extracurricular until my mom was in her mid mid 30s and she would start to auxillary and start going on service more and stuff like that. So then how would you have been then. Were you pushed into that as well or were you old enough to maybe not have to go along with everything. Yes so at this time you know I’ll jump to a role a little a little back again where. Yeah. So this was I don’t know. I had been 13 near 13 or so. But anyways right before I started middle school so my sister became increasingly more and more into boys you know as normal teens grow up you know girls do.

[00:30:58] And I remember on this one specific occasion. My I was just graduating like elementary school going into middle school and my parents said that I could have five of my friends within the organization go to Magic Mountain. They were going to take me to Magic Mountain. So they did a sleepover at my house. All the kids were over and the next morning my dad was coming home with you know our dog he had taken the dog to the vet the day before and he was he said that once he came back from the vet that morning he was going to pick up the dog and once he came back to drop off the dog to be OUTFRONT and ready to go so that he can just kind of pick us up. So I mean my buddies are all outside you know play and skateboarding and just doing whatever out front waiting for my dad to come home and it was like 8:00 in the morning or something like that. And as soon as he pulls up he gets the dog jumps out of the truck and then he left the truck running and we’re all still playing in the front yard. And when my dad was taking the dog inside a guy ran along the side of our house that was just waiting there jumped in my dad’s truck and virtually stole it right in front of us kids and we were like wait we thought it was a joke. I thought maybe it was a neighbor or somebody that my dad knew was just so confused.

[00:32:24] And he ends up going into the cul de sac and realizing it was a dead end and turning and hitting curbs and cars and just messing up the truck and long story short he ends up being chased by one of my neighbors and my dad in a car. And my neighbor was on a dirt bike and they ended up catching the guy and in my mind I was like oh my gosh I was so crazy. My dad’s brand new truck that he had just gotten was totaled. I was like I had my friends there and I was young enough to be like well this sucks. Like I mean it sucks for my parents that they had to do that but for me and my mind I was like well it sucks even more that now I can’t go to a magic minute with my friends and me and my dad my dad is you know cool as he was was like No absolutely not. That’s what insurance is for. Roof handled it with the cops. Yeah. And he ended up taking me to Magic Mountain with all of my friends. Lol that’s nice. Yeah. So it was cool it was a crazy start to the day to say the least. And so when we’re at magic note we’re having a great time and I remember distinctively my dad getting the phone call and he did not look happy. He just looked shocked. He was just like wow. And I was just like well you know he he pulled me sightlines is something about that track or what he’s like.

[00:33:39] We’re going to have to wrap this up soonA.J. And it was maybe like 2:00 or 3:00 in the afternoon and it was you know we still had a couple hours at the theme park in my mind. But now is being cut short but I was just happy that we were we got to go regardless. So. So on the way home I was thinking Oh the kids are gonna come back to my house and my dad’s like now we’re going to we’re going to have to drop them all off. We have something to attend to at home and where I would later find out once we got home is that as my sister was getting more and more the boys apparently while my mom was gone at work she was watching my little brother at home and she had been talking to a boy up the street. And apparently when she and my brother were there that boy that she had liked and had been talking to came over and my mom found out and they didn’t do anything. They were just you know they were young my sister was 16 at the time. And they just he came over and hung out. And my mom found out and boy was that a scene. It was yeah it was clearly evident growing up that my mom treated her different than my sister different than me and my brother and I think that she harbored harsh feelings towards my sister because she was technically not her child and that she helped fight for essentially and Bray’s this this girl was an easy process and my dad treated her differently. Might my sister as well differently but never in a way that made me or my brother Phil jealous. Like she got special treatment or anything but that. That was evident in my mind.

[00:35:18] That was my dad’s only daughter and you can tell how much she just loved her. But I think over the years my mom grew increasingly jealous of this and cannot wait for my sister you know to mess up. So once my mom found out she just lost her mind and she came into the house and was screaming at my sister throwing stuff out or hating her and calling her all kinds of names like you whore you’re gonna end up just like your mom and then that was just like it. And this was it. This wasn’t anything out of the ordinary for me. This was just another time that my mom was upset because this is how she treated us kids that young when she was upset there would be a lot of name calling. There’d be no physical abuse. And so my sister at this point had enough of it. At sixteen years old she realized because growing up to this point and this was just it. This is not how things were handled in my house. My dad was never physically abusive. He I don’t think he’s ever raised a hand to me or any of my siblings. And if he did it’s a race from my mind because it was nothing in comparison to him our mother you know handled disciplinary action. So once my my sister went through this with my mom for the last time she she was fed up and she actually ended up running away and that would be the last time that my sister would live with us.

[00:36:48] You know and I would see her for years because she ultimately went to move back in with her mom and wanted nothing to do with the organization or coming back home. Wow that’s pretty harsh. That’s that’s a hard so hard situation for you to watch. Watch your sister leave. Yeah. I mean it was hard on your parents too I’m sure. Yeah it was definitely hard on the family on multiple levels. But I know for me it was hard because my sister at the time was essentially my best friend you know we were only two years apart. And you know this was somebody I could be 100 percent myself around with my parents her other family was around to hold us to our witness beliefs and standards it was almost it almost seemed like an unspoken bond that we had of sharing mixed emotions about our faith being so young. But you know we just we’re essentially each other’s competence. So for her to just be uprooted that one day it was such an extreme day already on so many levels. And that was like the catalyst. It was just it just stood out in my mind as like it was just extreme circumstances. And it was really sad that that would be her last time you know ever coming back home or me getting home from school and her being there that was that was the end of that. Wow. Yeah that’s that’s hard hard. I’m sure it was really hard you know on her to to leave as well. You know it’s just I mean I’m sure you know in her mind in the moment it was just I’ve got to get away from crazy. Oh absolutely.

[00:38:33] But you know it’s tough. And I think she knew her options too because growing up like I said there was a lot of abuse in the family. And she she saw that my parents were having this in you know to face approach at raising their family in this organization where at home you know like on paper our family look like picture perfect you know to the hall or the organization but as soon as we’re back home you know that’s when the dragon was released. If any of us fell out of line and we didn’t do what we’re told and I think my sister knew her options at that time which was that she had you know her real mom that wasn’t a Jobs witness that was encouraging her to come live with her and get out of that environment. And she really she she took her mom up on that. And I couldn’t blame her. No. You know even to this day I I honestly to this day wished I had the you know the balls or the opportunity to do something like that myself at that age. But I I just remember thinking I wish I could have left to try. But like Good for you. Just keep running. That’s funny. You know I brought up you know for me as as a kid I can remember I always wanted to run away. I had nowhere to go to but man did I want to run away. If I I would sit there and try to make plans where could I go. You know I know where my grandparents live.

[00:40:09] I could go there but that’s not going to go over well. Yeah. And that’s a long law. It was you know like a 20 mile walk right. You know. But as a kid you know you you have no concept of some of that but I wonder how many kids there are out there that you know were born and raised Jehovah’s Witnesses where they just felt so out of control and they just they just wanted a break. They just wanted to get away to go somewhere. And I’m sure that you know those feelings are felt and shared by a lot of people. Yeah. And I think that’s a good point because I mean even at that age I remember distinctively that that’s when he would start in my mind that man I wish I could leave this. I don’t want this either. It’s causing us so much know personal pain. And I just didn’t understand why there was so much hypocrisy or double standards even at even at that age and in my mind that’s when it would start. Like there was that little seed that was planted at that point where in my mind I was like I started questioning more and more and started to do less and less of what my my mother was requiring of me. And that really started in middle school. You know I started to act differently. And you know as jobs when you’re not supposed to dress a certain way. But I was like really into skateboarding so I dressed like a skater and being told that I couldn’t wear you know a certain belt because it had studs on it or you know something as dumb as that.

[00:41:54] So I remember I’m like rolling up my belt and put it in my backpack and once I got to school I’d put it on and like and my sister would do this too. She would take clothes that she would want to wear like a you know a tube top or whatever it was in style and you know the you know the late 90s but we would essentially dress a certain way before school just a change into what we felt more comfortable in. We weren’t supposed to dress that way but I I wanted to make my friends you know I wanted to fit in essentially and I basically started to living somewhat of a double lifestyle at you know 13 13 years old and this would really be the time that I would start questioning my beliefs and justify my actions that went against my family’s beliefs and my mom would soon start to see that pattern and behavior and it was an obvious change and she thought that my dealings with the kids there were worldly. You know it was a worldly influence and it was a bit much. And she was she was right in that sense. It was I was definitely starting to change. And so I would only actually attend a year of middle school before being taken out to finish my education through an independent schooling system. So at this time my mom said like it’s just getting too much and I started becoming really independent and not wanting to do what was asked of me.

[00:43:24] And so she wanted to take me out of school and I was all for it actually because I thought to myself when she approached me with wanting to take me I thought to myself well I can’t I can’t live the lifestyle that I want in school. So it was too hard for me to be in school because you know I wanted to do certain things I wanted to hang out with certain people go to their house do go skateboarding with them. But these things weren’t allowed. I was just like well what’s the point. So yeah I wanted to get out of school because in my mind I was thinking well I’ll just get all my work done and have the rest of the day to do what interests me you know. So yeah. So I did a lot of what interests me skateboarding and a lot of our once you know I’d finish all of my school my schooling for that day. You know my mom would actually catch on to what I was doing which was I’d wake up super early get all of my work for that day. Done super early and then the minute the rest of the day I would just kind of do whatever I wanted to skateboard play video games. And I actually I at I started to actually absolutely love it. And you are live in a country. Yeah. Exactly. I felt like for once in my life I got some semblance of freedom like now. Now I have time my time and you know I and I viewed it that way because my my mom had started to go to work because my dad’s business was starting to fail. And so no one was really home to micromanage me anymore during the day and I absolutely loved it.

[00:44:57] And you know my mom eventually caught on to what I was doing and she thought I had too much free time on my hands. So she then advised me that I needed to make a schedule to go out in the ministry more so that I could quote unquote spend my time more wisely. So there goes the dream. Yes. So that was a pretty short lived. And that’s when I would actually for the first time be introduced to more activities within the organization. So I was about 14 15 when this happened. And. And so she said you know I needed to start making a weekly schedule and asked some kids that I grew up with that we’re at this point doing really well spiritually to ask them if I can go on service with them because they started pioneering and these were kids that I grew up with in the organization and they were the closest thing in my mind to the coolest kids that I knew that I could hang out with. So it wasn’t it wasn’t the end of the world for me to start going on service with them because in my mind I was like oh well we’ll hang out. And these were kids these were two brothers they were a little over a year apart and I believe one was baptized at 13 and the other one was at 14. So when I when I started hanging out with them it you know I was just like a wild there already baptized and in my mind I was like there’s no way I want to do that. And I didn’t really feel like hanging out with them all too much.

[00:46:25] But it seemed because it just seemed like they were a little too gung ho on the truth. You know when kids that are baptized that you know that young typically their parents are holier than thou and their children cannot do those things to appease their parents. And it was very evident to me that that that was the case. And you guys are the really I’m raising my hand right. Yeah. Go ahead. It’s me. That’s me. Yeah. In this wasn’t something that I faulted him for because it was weird how my mind my mindset started to change and it really started to mature as far as the way I process things and I became way more introspective when I started questioning things and looking at other people’s scenarios and not really faulting them form because they were so young that they weren’t even thinking about these things they were just going through the motions to make their parents happy and I could see right through it at the youngest of ages and that they weren’t really doing it for themselves. Even if they said they did but it was completely obvious how much praise and respect that they got from the older ones their parents and how most of the time even other kids for being driven spiritually at such a young age. But these two brothers that I had played with earlier in childhood they were at the time the most interesting kids that I could associate with in the organization. So I would start going out in the ministry with them a couple times during the week after my schooling. Just just so that my mom would stay off my case.

[00:47:59] So then how how do we get from this period of time. So you’re you know what right. You know 14 15 you Alan I think you said you were getting back you got baptized at 17. Right. So how do you go from you know the kid that is that is kind of on the outs that is perceptive enough to see that you know these other kids that got baptized super young and you know weren’t really as sincere as you know it appeared. What was the transition that got you from you know in those next couple of years to the point of being baptized. Well like I said I was home. I was being homeschooled and doing it going out in the field ministry door to door. More more and more often with these kids that were pioneering. So this was something that kind of grew on me because I really did start to enjoy their association. As far as the friendship that we started to cultivate. And it wasn’t necessarily about the truth or enjoying the film ministry that would that would kind of start to happen where I was like oh this isn’t the worst because I’m surrounded by my friends and we’re having a good time. Right. But what would really be the Catalyst’s of me pushing to get baptized. Was they had those two brothers that I mentioned. I would start to associate with into my teen years. They had a cousin and she was my age and she would come to visit all the time and meet her started to have an interest in each other.

[00:49:38] About 16 16 years old and essentially to make a long story short we would start to in so many words. Yeah. Even though we weren’t supposed to talk. And people were kind of privy to the fact that we were we’re texting and stuff like that. So once I got to the point where I I wanted to be able to date this person. She had already been baptized the kids that I was associating with are already baptized and I can see a difference. You know a mindset change in all of the kids that I started to associate with and their parents where at 16 years old you know they’re like well he should. He’s definitely old enough to get baptized. And you’re talking to my daughter but you’re not spiritually strong. So by me getting baptized it was 100 percent because I felt those the ramifications the negative ramifications of being that outskirt guy that did it and that wasn’t baptized. And more importantly I wanted to impress this girl’s parents and let them know like I’m taking this serious. Why are you telling me that some people get baptized not out of a dedication to to the Most High. But just a desire to please other people or because undue influence was you know it was put upon them or a hundred percent. You know I think I think I wonder how many kids that get baptized have any real like I don’t know. You know I guess the dedication that we were told we were supposed to have was kind of romanticized. Right.

[00:51:23] But you know I think most of us did it because we knew at a certain point we had to whether it was to please our parents or to date some boy or girl or to just fit in with our friends or not be looked down upon in the congregation. Yep. Yeah I think that was most of it is. Yeah. And I mean at that age too. You know I was when I was this age you know I was 17 when I got baptized but really I started being pushed at 16 to do it. And I just I didn’t want to I knew in my mind I didn’t want to because I knew how important it was and by important I mean important to everyone else. Yeah but it didn’t make sense to me. And at the time the truth really did it make sense to me because there is a lot of things in my mind that I just can’t get over. I was very privy to the hypocrisy with other families in the carnation. And like I said I just I saw right through. Kids getting baptized at that young of an age. And I was just like they’re not doing it for the right reasons. If I’m going to get baptized I’m going to do it on my own accord because it makes sense to me because that’s what baptism should be. Right. Right. Is your personal dedication to Jehovah. Little did I know that that dedication is actually to watch heart organization God himself. So yeah essentially I got baptized because I wanted to ultimately please my parents make them look good prove to the girl that I was talking to. That I I was serious.

[00:53:05] And her parents and everyone around me that their association would stop and dwindling with me because I wasn’t taking that stand for my faith. Yeah that’s that’s a tough period of life because you’re taking such an inauthentic step that has such huge ramifications later in life. So then how did how did this play out so you get baptized. You know you’ve got this girl. How do things start to how do things change after that. So at this time. So my. My mom my mom and dad were pretty big drinkers growing up and like I said they were they were they were young parents so they still partying a lot. They had their friends and they would go to barbecues and get all sauced up and I would see this all the time you know my parents would get in huge fights because you know someone said this and all the gossip and they’re all you know drinking and getting drunk and arguing about the dumbest things. When are you talking about women’s with these ladies. Yeah yeah. The ones that tell you how to live your life you don’t says right. Yeah. I saw this happening and like I said my parents were pretty heavy drinkers especially by witness standards. And my mom especially and now at this time in my life 16 years old 17 years old my mom had like I said went to work a couple years prior to that and she got into real estate because my dad’s business failed so they ended up getting declaring bankruptcy on that business. My dad was starting up another one.

[00:54:51] And so this was a really stressful time for my family yet again and my mom started doing real estate and she ended up actually becoming really really successful and becoming the breadwinner by far at this point in my life. And but along with that stress for her came even more and more drinking. So at the age of 16. Sixteen years old my mom was just a fool like raging alcoholic to where it was so bad that she ended up going to rehab for almost a year. And at this time I was thinking about my career choice and the friends that those two boys that you know that I was hanging out with at the time their dad had become a firefighter. So I was trying to just busy myself and get away from home as much as possible because it was super hectic. You know I’m you know getting to be 17 years old and I’m just saying that I don’t want to be home because it’s just so broken right now. My moms constantly drinking just not word. No one was in a good place at home and on a stark contrast my friends parents they were they were great people everything seemed happy happy go lucky. And I would just and you know basically force and indoctrination upon myself to busy myself so the ministry became just busy work for me but also because his dad their dad was a firefighter. I was thinking about my career choice and I was like Well he’s he’s a firefighter and he’s he’s a ministerial servant. He can do it. So I ended up with my two friends. His sons becoming a firefighter. Explorers and while my mom was in rehab that’s how I I.

[00:56:41] I just consumed my mind was going into this fire academy with these kids and it was basically like military camp. So I think in the back of my mind it was a sense of structure. It was a sense of discipline and it just kept me preoccupied. So I I did as much busy work as possible just so as not to fill the ramifications of the emotions that I was going through at that time. Got to keep busy so that you can keep distracted from everything going on. Yeah. I’m sorry to hear that about your mom. That’s that’s tough. Yeah. Now you know looking back at it it just it it didn’t surprise me with the way that my mom raised us that she would ultimately break down you know and get to such a low point where you would require intervention and ultimately like I said she was she was gone for a good portion of a year in you know outside of our town in theL.A. area going through rehab and just to find out that after I graduated from that fire academy that while she was in rehab she started smoking. And her mindset changed about the organization and she she didn’t want to come back to live like I said my mom was. I became very successful and so my parents had multiple homes and they had just built like a you know 4000 square foot home. And this was all weighing on my dad. Now who who had his own business. But it wasn’t generating that type of income that my mom was. But they were basically living off of what my mom’s savings had accumulated too.

[00:58:25] And also selling off properties to sustain that lifestyle while she was away. So this was weighing heavily on my dad. My brother was so young at the time he didn’t know what was going on and for me I just I could see right through it that you know when my mom was away her her mindset change she would she would send me letters and I would just toss them I would throw them away because I was just so upset with her. And I didn’t want to talk or I didn’t talk to her the whole time that she was gone. And yeah. And I found out through my dad that she had started smoking cigarettes and that she told my dad that she didn’t want to come back home that she was going to go live go into sober living with some people obviously weren’t Joe’s witnesses. And Ryan by far the worst association if you know you’re Joves witness to consider ex addicts living together. And so my mom getting out of rehab you know my dad was saying you know you got to come back. Yes. She she ended up being you know my dad ended up telling her like you can’t you can’t do this to our family. You have to come back and you know help raise the children and take care of responsibilities and she said she basically gave him an ultimatum saying well if we’re gonna make this work then I don’t want to move back to you know the city that we’re living in. And she wanted to live by the beach.

[00:59:53] So Margaret my mom ended up getting a place out here and where I currently live. And it’s right by the beach and it was a place that we grew up coming to nice kids and ultimately in her mind it may made her happy in this. She just needed a fresh start. So mind you I’m still living in Palmdale. My parents have this huge house and multiple properties in there. They’ve moved out here now and I’m still kind of in the fire academy and doing things out there and I didn’t really want to move. You know this was home to me. Right right. So a lot of the times I just stayed with my friends family that I was going on service with all the time because that to me was a stable environment. You know looking back at it I just I would rather be there instead of deal with all the ups and downs of what my parents were going through and ultimately they would be out here living and I would have that huge house to myself. And it was so lonely that I would just go back to my friends house you know. But after that my parents were forced to sell the home just because they ran out of savings and that would be ultimately the time that I would move out to you know towards the beach area with my parents for you know like two years or so. So I hate that I don’t want to digress too much but I have to ask. I don’t want to take the focus off of you but your mom who after so she starts doubting things right that she believed were the truth because she got away from it.

[01:01:37] His rehab which is which is something that as soon as you said that my ears perked up because that I have found over and over with people that if they can just get away from the indoctrination for some reason for my wife and I it was because we owed a bunch of money in taxes and we had to work all the time to pay off this huge debt that we owed. And so it was that time away where we were like wait a minute this doesn’t all add up. It’s like your brain can finally process this stuff you’ve been brainwashed with. So in this case it was actually an alcohol and drug rehab then that helped her to start waking up. But did she. What was her. Did she continue. Did she go back to quote the truth. Did she go back to the witnesses or did she kind of fade away. See this is where the story gets interesting is because now you know like you said I firmly believe that being my case too is when you take a step back. You’re able to think for yourself. You start to re-evaluate scenarios and doctrine and you’re able to critically think on these topics. And I think what what was happening with my mom while she was in rehab was she’s meeting people from all over with all types of belief systems and ideas and they’re testing hers.

[01:03:05] And I think what she finally felt for the first time was that certain things that she was doing were ultimately not making her happy and that could very well been the case of why she was in the place that she was in perhaps Alesso. So you know after she got out of rehab and my parents you know made amends and came together to live by the beach there would be a period of you know a little over a year where my mom was really stagnant. She was really working on her sobriety. She was you know we’re in a new hall out here by the beach and she was just she didn’t fully throw herself back in but just little tidbits and hit her Miss kind of again. But as regular as possible. But once she realized that she had to get a better grasp on her sobriety. Like most addicts they throw themselves wholeheartedly into something else. And she went straight into full time pioneering after that man. And to this day she’s been a full time pioneer for 11 years I want to say no. Which just goes to show that a lot of religious zealous zealousness zealotry a lot of it is just addiction. I mean there’s. Yeah you can be addicted to a religion or an ideology and throw yourself into that. Just like you can any substance it’s just it’s a great way to escape and Jehovah’s Witnesses have built their own entire other alternate reality to escape into some yeah absolutely. No I believe with I believe that whole heartedly that that that is the case. I mean it’s not it’s not only with Jehovah’s Witnesses that’s with anybody with an addiction. You know you quit alcohol you had to fill that that need that constant want with something else whether that’s cigarettes that’s energy drinks coffee. You know it’s one thing you replace one thing with another.

[01:05:06] Yeah then justify why it’s better than what you were doing. Yeah absolutely. Well I’m sorry to hear that the path she ended up taking. I was hoping there was there was a certain freedom story there. Yeah I wish. Yeah yeah. That poll is pretty strong though back to that you know the indoctrination. Right. And I mean they just have so much to keep you busy and so much so that you don’t have to think well. So then. All right. So then back to your story where did you go from from there. You know you’re living with the other family kind of. Yeah. And you end up moving to the beach with your family again. How do things progress from there. So from there I’m still talking to that original girl you know that my my friends had introduced me to it was their cousin and it was it wasn’t the worst thing for me to move back out here. And she helped me to understand the girl that I was talking to which we would later start to date. And this would be actually the time that we would because she would you know tell me you know maybe it’s not such a bad thing because the beach is great and I was like Yeah that is true and she lived relatively close to where I would be living. It was only maybe a 30 minute drive as opposed to an hour and a half of where she lived when I lived you know in the desert right.

[01:06:28] So when I moved when I moved to the beach it was now a shorter distance to each other. And I was just like Well okay that makes sense. And you know I was still talking to her at the time. I mean I moved in with my parents and you know started to get used to the the current geisha out here and boy was that a change. You know there is a stark contrast difference between the congregation that essentially was born and raised in four 16 years of my life. One congregation which I just came to know you know it had been had like virtually 200 publishers in it. And when we moved out to the beach it was a small carnation that had 64 alive and yes so that was a big change and getting used to the demographic. They were all older individuals. Nobody my age. And so I would try my best you know and be Riegler just as much as my parents were because I was living in their same under the same house as them. But at this time my mom started to see the closeness that I was you know start to have with this this girl and she would later start to like really try to catch me doing something wrong you know cause she knew I was I was texting her and she was always curious about what it was. And we we she would like check my phone and text messages and stuff like that. And I remember specifically this girl ended up sending me. So I guess you can say some somewhat lewd pictures and my mom found them and and she would then convince me that this girl was not somebody I needed to be talking to.

[01:08:16] That it was hurtful essentially. So I I pretty much sabotage sabotage that relationship with that girl essentially because my mom wanted me to have nothing to do with her. And it was just kind of a weird devastating point in my life. Yeah I don’t know what you do with that. Yes that’s that’s tough. You know your first relationship and so many witnessed parents end up being you know they they don’t trust their kids and they end up spying on them with key loggers on their computers or going down their phones or going through their rooms. My mom did a lot of that stuff. It’s really sad the lack of trust that’s there. So you know you’re you’re not only losing your girlfriend here but you’ve got this weird dynamic with your mom too where she’s influencing you in that way and Gorakhpur your stuff. Yeah. It was at a weird age too because you know around 17 years old I have my own job. You know at the time I was working at Target and I I absolutely hated it. But you know in my mind I was like I’m a grown I’m starting to become a grown man and have my own body. You bought a car and had a job and was doing essentially independent things yet still being very micromanaged. And the reason was because I was living under their roof and my mom said as long as you’re living under our roof you will do exactly as you’re told and you know essentially dictating how things we’re going to be to. Oh yeah the theory.

[01:10:03] So I at that point in my head at that point in time when I ended up breaking things off with this girl and I saw how how rigid my mom was on certain things but very lax on others. But this is especially with herself. I really started to think like OK well if I’m being manipulated in this organization then I’m going to start to manipulate the situation and that at that point 17 17 years old I made it like a basically a pact with myself that I was going to start looking out for me and only me and start to do things for myself that were unbeknownst to my parents to make progress to get out from underneath them and do my own thing. So I only worked at Target for a couple of months and then I got introduced to a brother in the local area and I was invited to come to a barbecue. And at that barbecue you know he got to know me where were all sitting in the spine. This this guy’s in as you know he’s maybe 31 years old and he you know we go up to his house and it was a bunch of younger kids in it little you know a little older mix as well but they were all really cool people. You know they were all into surfing and skating all the stuff that I loved him. We were hanging out and we were at his house. And it was a it was a really nice house.

[01:11:35] And I asked him what he did and he said he did pools and he asked me what I did and I said I worked at Target and that you know kind of kind of shied away from you know letting him know what I did because I I wasn’t too proud of it. You know everybody needs a job but in my mind I didn’t want that one. So he’s like well you’re going to do that forever. And I didn’t really know how to take that at first but I said No no I just I gotta I gotta make money somehow and right there on the spot he offered me a job and I took him up on the offer and so I shadowed him for about a month to learn the ins and outs of the industry and being a service tech and basically a month after that he gave me 60 accounts to manage on my own so I went from making virtually minimum wage to you know almost 4000 dollars a month at 17 years old knife. So yeah. So and that that to me. That to me was it just like I said at that age before this had all happened I had made that pact in my mind that I was going to look after myself. I was going to be independent and start making decisions for myself. And when I started making that type of money it really just went straight to my head like I just wanted to get out of my parents house as quickly as possible. So once my mom was privy to the you know the amount of money that I was making at that agent at the time. You know my parents and it need the money. But she would say you know. You’re going to you’re going to start paying rent.

[01:13:11] And in my mind I was thinking like I just started making good money. Like why can’t I just save this. I’m doing everything that you’re asking of me. And maybe that was a little selfish on my end. And you know she was telling me that it’s part of responsibility and I totally understand that. But you know I cannot go to college. I can do this or that. So I just thought Why can’t I just say the civil nest egg or something like that and apply it to my future. But Yanagida sucks to that you know the first time you start to rise above the first time you start to rise up somebody has to be you know standing there with their hand. You know Riseley your own parents to be like hey you’re finally you know you’re stuck you’re starting to get ahead in this game. Whereas mapi. Yes. It’s the I feel good. No it doesn’t and especially not in my parents case. So interiorly is because my parents were still living off of savings from my mom and that was dwindling. And I knew that. So in my mind I just thought well are they just siphoning a little off the top for me because it would help them out. Sure am I upset about that kind kinda because I realize that you know technically I’m still not of age you know and there require me to pay rent because I’m making good money. I didn’t really fully comprehend that or agree with that but I did it regardless. Sure but only for a limited amount of time before I would realize that I had to make a change to get out.

[01:14:38] And the only way that I saw that was by moving out. So I started hanging out with people more and more coming home less and less. And that’s when I would ultimately meet what would become my wife. At like a gathering with some Jehovah’s Witnesses and that’s when that’s when the story even gets more interesting is when I met this woman. I was 18 years old now and almost immediately we started talking and dating. So we dated for 6 months and then we were engaged for 6 months before we got married. So and at that time I was just making those steps to become more and more independent. And I think that the way that the witnesses outlined freedom and how you’re supposed to do as an individual is find a mate. Get married and start living your own life in this organization. And so that’s that’s essentially what I did as she she at the time was spiritual. She was an ancillary pioneering and I thought perfect this all. This is a double whammy. She’s you know she’s gorgeous and she’s very spiritual it’ll make my parents happy because obviously the girl that I was interested in before did it and that kind of drove a wedge between our relationship to the point where I had to stop because it was just too much to bear. You know and deal with. So with this girl it was perfect because you know she was adored by many Yeah. That would definitely help. In contrast to the circumstances with the other girl you know. Yeah.

[01:16:31] I’m sure she was happy that you found this this this other sister who was as you said adored by many Soden. Right. So you guys get married and. And life is happily ever after right. I wish that was the case. Yes so we ended up getting married. It was it was a really beautiful wedding actually and you know a lot of the brothers and sisters came together to help us out on a ranch of some friends of the family that a really nice home. And there ended up being like almost 400 people at our wedding. And it was it was beautiful. It was great. In the end that was the first time I had really seen the unity with in the Jehovah’s Witnesses like they really do come together and now that I come to think of it it was almost more so a reason to come together and party because there were so many elders paying years really faithful people at our wedding that you know looking back at the wedding video they were all completely sassed you know and I was very appreciative that they helped us out in so many ways with getting that you know preparing for the wedding. Right. And essentially it’s like the one and only time. Witnesses can kind of get unruly and out of hand so yes they look forward to it as much as anybody else. Yes. When you only have one thing to celebrate in life which is a wedding I mean there’s what else do witnesses celebrate. There isn’t much. So yeah yeah. So that that’s your time to show out. Right. Yeah.

[01:18:10] And so you know at the wedding I am you know I vowed to dedicate myself to this woman and I absolutely meant it. And I don’t think she fully understood and I wasn’t ready to divulge how I truly felt about things spiritually. And you know I was doing everything by the books you know as well as closely as possible and proving to people that I was a good association. I was doing my best while still maintaining a you know a full time job and more importantly wanting to provide for this woman. I wanted to give her anything that she would ever want because I that’s just what I wanted to do. I wanted to give it to somebody and. But she didn’t fully understand me and I didn’t fully understand her. Like we had basically only known each other for a year and before we decided to dedicate ourselves to each other so and we were so young and so young and naive and. But regardless you know we tried you know the our best to make it work in the first couple of years obviously for any marriage. It’s going to have its highs and lows its ups and downs but we did do our best. And you know there was there was a lot of good times that came out of trying to figure out navigate spirituality with another person. And this was the early days when I would start to just kind of throw tidbits of questions in. What do you think about this the research and this or that. My my wife at the time was somebody who was very reserved with her her beliefs like she would say well this is how I feel. That’s that.

[01:19:47] Like there’s no real sway like even if I don’t understand it it’s just what we do. And to me you know I wouldn’t really speak out about it because I don’t want to offend her or anybody to get an idea that I might be questioning things. So I really internalized everything and kept everything to myself for a good majority of the years that we were married. So yeah it was just it was it was a real interesting time to say the least. Yeah that’s it. That’s a heck of a strain on a marriage when you have this giant thing between you. Now is this religion that is is it just part of your life but is your life and is your identity. And then you know you don’t necessarily fully believe and your partner clearly fully believed. Right. She was all in so even if she didn’t understand which is the case with a lot of witnesses I think a lot of them don’t really even know what they believe. They just know that that’s what they’re supposed to believe absolutely and that was something that I had to come to terms with for myself and I could only imagine that anybody that can think introspectively or is it concerned about their own well-being would eventually come to that conclusion of starting to question things whether it’s good or bad it’s going to eventually lead to you know the process of evaluating or re-evaluating your situation. And what I what I notice even with my wife is that even you know being approached with the slightest of questioning they write it off like well we might not know this but that’s okay because we don’t have to.

[01:21:31] We do see the fundamentals and that’s good enough. And you know I might not be happy or understand it now but we will when the new scrolls come out or in the new system you know everything will be OK. And it’s like that’s not how my mind worked. And it would it would evidently become more and more you know increasingly obvious that those answers weren’t good enough for me. And so like I said I was doing Pooles at the time I was working for somebody else kind of as like a subcontractor now and. And that guy that initially gave me the job. He ended up retiring in his mid mid 30s and moving moving out of state. And he I told him when I had started working for him if there was any. Like if he decided to sell his business to give me first dibs at it. And I don’t know what I was thinking. I didn’t have the money set aside for that. Now he’s married. You know I had responsibilities and priorities. I didn’t have the savings that I could you know hey you get paid for the business or get a loan or whatever I was still really young. But when he decided to retire and move away he took into consideration how hard I worked for him. And he approached me and said that he he would sell me a portion of his business. And I said why would I would love to do that man. But I just I don’t have the funds.

[01:23:01] I’m I’m not going to get a loan like it just doesn’t make sense for me right now and he actually allowed me over time to pay it off. So what I did was I mean I cut him a check every month which was quite substantial for almost two years until I paid I paid it off. Then I owned I owned it outright. So that’s how I ended up acquiring my own business out of his he. Did you right because that could have gone out that could have gone a lot worse. Absolutely. And I still I still think him to this day you know and he really he really did me a favor because I never ended up finishing high school because at 17 years old like I said I was still doing the independent study program and going through the process of school and they kept you know I had transferred three different schools between where I used to live and to the beach and then at the beach at another school and they kept messing up on my credit. And I was making good money at that time. And I just thought to myself These people aren’t even doing their job. And this is time out of my day. I’m working full time. I’m running you know essentially a business in high school. And these people don’t know how to do their job. I’m not going to redo this work. And it was just a waste of my time. So in my mind I thought I don’t need a piece of paper to tell me who I am or who I’m going to become. And I was kind of strong headed about it but I ended up walking away and just diving into my business.

[01:24:29] And in the end it was for the better in my opinion. So I’m sure it would have been easy to be disillusioned when you’re. You seem to be doing better than the people who who are in charge of this education that are struggling to get things you know the basic things straight with your credit. Right. Yeah. It a little difficult for me to understand that you know and maybe that’s just a sign of where the school system’s at. But I saw right through it too and I just was like You know honestly this is you know in my personal opinion at a certain point high school just becomes more social and there is no social aspect of school for me at all. So I was like hey man this makes zero sense for me I just need to focus some itself. So then. So now you’re married and you’ve got this business you’ve got it paid off. And you’ve also got these doubts. So how does this end up progressing. Well the doubts started progressing more and more you know they became increasingly worse and worse over the years. But I still internalized it because I knew how my wife would act. I knew how my parents would approach it. You know I can never have a you know a debate with my father over doctrine because he himself didn’t really ever dive into it to fully understand it. It was just something he did as well. And the times that I would have you know debates are you know talks with my mom about doctrine.

[01:25:59] She was extremely vague and there was a lot that she didn’t know either and which was confusing because somebody who is a full time pioneer and she had been for some years at this time you would think that she’d be able to you know uphold the truth and its doctrine to the slightest amount of scrutiny. And that just wasn’t the case. So I kept getting the runaround and I wasn’t really expressing too much of what I was getting into with other people with my wife because I didn’t want her to worry about it. I didn’t want her to think that my fake faith was wavering in that sense. But I wanted answers I wanted clarification because I got to a point where I was like well the Bible says to make the truth your own. And I never had that opportunity. So I’m kind of doing things in reverse. I’m going back to square one. I want answers. And so after a couple of people I’ve talked to a couple of elders about certain topics my mom my mom Ben referred me to my grandfather. You know my dad’s dad who had been an elder for 30 plus years now at this time and we got into a lot of debates and some heated arguments and it wasn’t on my end it was on the end of my grandfather being upset that I came across information that didn’t coincide with the doctrine or the books or the publications that the organization produces so if anybody does any outside research that’s considered apostate research and it goes directly against the organization.

[01:27:28] And so my grandfather at a certain point said that he would have nothing to do with our discussions because of the fact that I was debating him with apostate research and we were talking about the the littlest things as far as the beginning of their religion. You know I don’t want to talk about that. No I don’t. Although I went I went all the way back to the founder you know talking about Charles Russell and getting into his life before you know all the way back into the late 80s hundreds and asking my grandfather did you know this and that and this and he’s like those things are true and I said well how do you know these and he’s like it we have all that information here. I forget the Big Green Book the Harmers book or the Yeah. One of the Insight yeah the insight book. And I read that thing back to back and I said and I highlighted things and I said it says it right here some of the things that I’m touching on. And he said Yeah they sure you know looking the best they could. But we have to. He’s like keep in keep in mind that this was the infancy of the Christian carnation and you know things have progressed and blah blah blah there’s oh it is a cop out there’s always a cop out. Yeah yeah. And it’s never it’s never an answer it’s always kind of a defense mech mechanism for you to just get exhausted about going round and round to where you just move on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s exactly what I saw with my grandfather and it got to the point where we were talking about what’s his name.

[01:29:03] Robert Rutherford Yeah yeah we’re talking about Rutherford and how you know I ask him about Beths or him. You know this was a place this is a place in San Diego where he thought it would be wise for him to own a mansion while we’re in the we’re in go into the cold war you know or the Depression the Great you had the great depression rather. And he’s live in this extravagant lifestyle in his cop out for doing that you know driving Cadillacs around and having this mansion was that this was a place that the patriarchs or princes would be able to become resurrected and come back and have a place to stay. So we have you know the leader of this organization living this lavish lifestyle off of the precious voluntary donations. I don’t even necessarily call him voluntary donations that people give to this organization to sustain its printing. Yet these these funds are being used illegitimate and for the benefit the benefit of his lifestyle. And it was just a slap in the face of people at that time where they were just people were starving you know. And and this and this is supposed to be God’s God’s. One note only mouthpiece the true organization. It just even from the infancy it was it was just so corrupt on so many levels. I can see now that it just and it makes sense how it progressed and all of the false predictions and you know my my grandfather just started shaking his head and saying that I sure had changed and I’m headed down a real scary path because you as you heard the you know what you were getting involved in.

[01:30:46] So it’s so sad that these people have devoted their entire lives and are so ego weakened and their identity is wrapped up in this thing that they don’t see and they don’t even know what it is. I learned more about the organization devoted my life to four decades and the two years after I left I ever knew when I was in it. Absolutely because you’re looking at it with a critical mind this time and it’s not necessarily that you’re looking for flaws but you’re looking for answers. Yeah. You’re looking for where things don’t absolutely make sense where you can make sense of it and we live in the age of technology it’s 2000 18. You know I think that that organization is like people that live in a town and only read that one newspaper. That’s the publication of The Watchtower Bible Tract Society is they only read those publications as fact and they never take their opportunity or the time to look at outside resources because they are told that that’s apostate literature and that’s not the case and you know the Internet is a place where it’s a cumulative mind a mass census so we’re able to determine what’sB.S. and what’s not based off of the massive Jocketty mindset. And so when you have X amount of people agreeing that this and this isn’t okay and this is correct then that’s just the facts I’m sorry but people don’t allow themselves to open their mind or to do that external research because they’re just so indoctrinated and they know how it’s going to look to others so they don’t do it.

[01:32:23] Oh yeah and they get comfortable with their beliefs you know and you don’t want anyone to question something you’re so comfortable with because it hurts now and you can’t. You can’t tolerate that pain because you you’re comfortable you don’t want to change you’ve been you know you’ve devoted so much of your life it’s sunk cost and you don’t want to change. So yeah. So you know you’re talking to your grandpa you’re you’re having these conversations that clearly aren’t going well. You’ve already been through it with your mom and dad. So where do how does this bill how does it build off this. So so backing up a little bit. So yeah basically it’s around the same time I was I was doing all of this debating with my grandfather and some of the brothers within the organization and a lot of my free time. I would ride dirt bikes like I was born and raised riding their bikes and stuff like that. And I remember going to basically a practice on the track out here in the local area and I ended up injuring my back really bad in compressing three vertebrate fracturing one in an accident. And at the time I was doing all of this you know debates with people and it wasn’t it wasn’t being argumentative and I say that in the slightest of terms as being a conversation of let’s figure this out you know and I have a question can you answer it. Well you know it has to be a debate with Brive. They’re not they can’t have a conversation. Right. There’s no end so yeah.

[01:34:03] So going through that I was going through that and once I got this back injury I had to go to the doctor they highly suggested that I did surgery. I cannot do that because I was the sole proprietor of this business and operator so I couldn’t take any time off. So I had to manage my pain. I was prescribed all of the all of these prescriptions like we’re talking Norco Soma Purkiss that you know Viken like the whole gamut because some of them didn’t work on me some did it then stopped working. And what I saw was they were you know extremely addictive and they definitely made me feel not myself. Like almost out of body kind of in a haze and not focused driven anymore than it was it was evident so at the time I was trying to make a transition where I thought like I was still going to pursue the fire career. Because owning my business I had enough free time to do more studies. So I went to OEM’s EMT school. And during this time in the program I was introduced to one of the instructors and we we got to talking about injuries and this and that pharmaceuticals because we were studying pharmacology and stuff like that. And he said he he said laughingly like oh ho ho ho why would anybody take these prescription drugs. He’s like well they just smoke a joint or something like that to that effect. And that was the first time I ever thought like really considered the use of marijuana or anything like that as a medicinal. I just always was told that it was you know the gateway drug that led you in to any other drug that you can think of.

[01:35:53] Mind you at this time I’m just dosed to the max on all of these prescription drugs. And so going to the school the schooling system you know he said that jokingly but he was kind of serious obviously so I did a lot of research and I looked into it and I realized that there was a lot of medicinal value in cannabis use. So yeah. So I mean people be people can have their view about it just like anything else. But what I saw in the greeting card Dacian was all of these elders wives elders themselves but especially the elders wives you know some of them would come to the Keenum also conked out. It was very evident that they were on prescription medication like pain meds where sometimes they when they were speaking it was you can even understand what they’re saying you know and these are the most spiritual people in the current Dacian people you should be looking up to that are on these prescription drug drugs. And it’s clearly evident. So when I decided for me you know that I wanted to try this. I didn’t tell anybody and this would go on for years. So I dropped all the pain pills and prescription pills and I would start using medicinal marijuana. And I got my my my recruit my license and all of that unbeknownst to my wife unbeknownst to my family no one knew. And I wanted to keep that way that way because I wanted to prove a point. It was yet the point that I wanted to make was it’s clearly evident that these people are using this drug these drugs these prescription drugs alcohol.

[01:37:33] I want to be under the mindset that I want to do something that helps me. And if it helps me great I’ll keep using it and it will end if it becomes evident to others then that is when you might have an issue. Right. So I started using it for years three years. In fact before I would even mention it to my wife because I eventually just felt guilty. You know my conscious just didn’t allow me to keep that from her any longer. But for three years she had no idea that I used it almost on a daily basis. I was running a very functional business that was growing each year. So there were no negative repercussions. We were very regular. And you know the ministry I was reading from the stage you know I had privileges. And once I told her that that’s what I was doing I mean I was shocked shock to her to have felt like I was keeping something from her. And I totally get that because I probably would have had the same feeling like wow that’s that’s kind of a big thing. Why wouldn’t you mention it but to me I wanted to prove something to myself first. Was it wasn’t it. If it was evident to somebody they would know and find out. And then it would be an issue. But I was able to manage it appropriately to where no one was the wiser. You know what I’m saying. Right. And like I said my conscious got the best of me and I felt like I was withholding some pretty important information from my wife to know.

[01:39:00] So once I let her know that that kind of started eating at her and she thought like oh I don’t know. I think I don’t think so and I try to show her all the research that I had found and where in the Bible doesn’t say anything about it. You know if we’re going to base our lives around the Bible then that’s it. Read the good book and see where it says not to. Go ahead. So you know and there’s a scripture in the Bible that said God gave every seed bearing fruit to mankind to enjoy it. So that’s how I justified it. Which was well you know if we’re gonna take the Bible literally this is how I literally perceive it. And I didn’t really care how anybody else did and nor was I you know asking anybody at that point. But my my wife ended up started feeling real guilty that I was hiding this from the conversation and I had privileges and she essentially wanted to go to the elders about two things at this time. She thought that we were we were like grieving God’s Holy Spirit we were lacking God’s Holy Spirit because at this time we started having more and more arguments at just about finances just life itself. It was very evident that you know with the relationship we have ups and downs but her mindset was when we have our downs that’s because we’re spiritually weak. We need to go talk to the brothers. Oh yeah yeah. So she used number one my marijuana usage as a catalyst.

[01:40:23] And number two there was a little bit of fooling around that we had done before we got married and she thought that we were grieving God’s Holy Spirit because we were keeping them from the Christian creation and the brothers. So not only did we get drug in to a judicial committee for what both me and my wife at the time had done prior to us getting married. But also the fact that I was using marijuana so it was just compounded so it wasn’t a good time to do both at once. But in my mind I was like well let’s knock it out of the park and I’m I’m not going to just bow down and say I’m going to stop but I’m going to try to prove a case. So we got our you know at this time we got privately reproves for what we had done prior to us getting married. But in that meeting we also mentioned the marijuana use and it wasn’t really that big of a deal. You know they really didn’t really touch on it. They shared a couple of scriptures and it was very vague and we left thinking like we left there thinking like well they didn’t touch on it too much and my wife was like yeah you know. But I still think that you should stop. So I did that for almost a year which was I just I stopped using it. And I was like well let’s see if things get better and with my with my pain it only got worse. It was basically the reason my used it was to go to sleep and stop tossing and turning. Get some good night’s sleep.

[01:41:59] And what I realized was like my health was starting to suffer suffer because I was only getting four hours of sleep every night. And so I started using again I told my wife after that time of not using it. I said I tried you know I tried to do prescription pills. I tried to stop and I found the best results while doing this. And you have to understand that it just works for me. You know something might work for me but maybe not for others. And I said the way that I look at it these chemical pills that are drive by man are way more harmful than something that’s natural. And they can still be managed appropriately. So once I kind of got on board with that she was OK with it. And that was pretty much it. And then the brother we got called back in to a meeting for the marijuana use. And this was because I still had privileges and at the time you still have privileges even though you run against the primary proof wouldn’t take those away. Yeah you’re right. Yeah I mean I guess that can differ from some some halls. But you know I was still saying there might have been a slight period of time where we didn’t have our commenting by Natomas. Yeah. After. I don’t know maybe five months it almost went back to normal like nothing had happened. Yeah. So you know I was reading the Watchtower saying prayer and stuff like that and helping with my ex and stuff like that. But after we went back to the brothers about them I want to use this is the original Hall that my parents moved us to when we came to the beach.

[01:43:41] So now it’s my family in that hall and me and my new wife in this hall. And we’re dealing with that committee about this marijuana use and virtually at the end of the day they’re like OK well there there are some people that do use it for medicinal purposes. Do not tell anyone about it. And you know everything was fine everything was fine. We left that meeting. They were under the assumption that I would be using it still it wasn’t an issue if I didn’t make it one. And I was happy I was I was ecstatic because it really truly did help me. And I felt like wow. I took a stand for something and you know it’s all working out. Then we start to associate with more friends in another congregation in the same town and they kind of sway us because we we were we were thinking about moving and this is when the circuit overseer came and said If you live here and you live in this this territory and your hall falls in this area you need to go to that hall. So he was basically driving and everybody said like if you live on the other side of town and you’re going to another hall on the other side of town that it’s not okay you need to go to the hall that is within your territory. Right. So we ended up moving to a different area down by the beach.

[01:45:00] We got a house down by the beach and now we were in that territory where all of our friends that we were making were they were our age because like I said that hall that we were in it was a bunch of old people nobody really to associate with. So we moved we moved halls and now I start to double down on my spirituality because things are on the up and up. The business is good. We got a house down by the beach. It was like literally five homes from the sand. And I’m like OK I got free time I start going to service more. We know we’re at this new home trying to you know make an impression and at a certain point that’s all it was. Now that I think about it about making advancements spiritually for me was always an image thing and how generalizations are based on image. Yeah and how people people perceive you you know and it’s often face value in a person. And so you know I was mean on the up and up. We were going to service more and just a couple of months into being at that new hall we decide to around Memorial season pioneer early Godzilla pioneer. And so we’re doing that and it took almost seven months for them to transfer my cards. Mine and my wife’s cards. Like a little less under two miles from one current geishas to the other. Yeah. And so when the cards finally came in there was a note on there of my marijuana use. Oh yeah. So I’m outside. We’re outside after meeting for field service and we’re out in front of the hall just kinda talking to some other friends making arrangements to the two of the others approach me and say you know they pull me aside and they want to talk to me.

[01:46:48] So my wife kind of looks at me funny and like I look at her like I don’t know what we’ll see. And so they pull me aside and they say you knowD.J. so we we got your cards in. That’s a good thing. And I was like wow yeah it is. That took a while. Like yeah we apologize for that. But what we did find when those cards were transferred is that it mentioned something about marijuana use and they said they didn’t ask me. They just said so you’re not doing that anymore. Right. They just assumed that I would have found my way to the right decision in their mind which was not to use it. Right. And I said No I’m still using it like it’s I made it evidently clear in the last you know I had a judicial committee about it and made it very clear in the last carnation that this would be an ongoing thing and everything was fine. And the brother specifically said not in my home. And I remember I remember that being the first thing the first moment from then on forward where I would start to throttle back on my spirituality because I was just you know I don’t get offended at all. It’s it’s it’s virtually impossible to offend me. I don’t even know how to put this or what words would be best fitting but I just couldn’t believe what had come out of this.

[01:48:11] Elders you know Malph because he was the Kobie of the carnation the presiding overseer basically the head honcho in charge and what I saw was these brothers perceive it to be in their hall. You know they’re there the managers of it. They’re the rucking you know they’re the boss hog. And I saw right through what he had said and it just did not sit well with me. And it wasn’t. Let’s get together and talk about it. It was not in my home which was clearly evident. He did not want to talk about it because he had a certain stance on it and he was not willing to waver or debate about it. So after that I told my wife what was going on. And she’s like don’t let it get you down like just only you and Jehovah know what works best for you and if it doesn’t bother you it doesn’t. You know it obviously doesn’t bother me anymore. Just do your thing and that would like I said be really the first thing where I would actively start throttling back on my my spirituality. So that was a big issue that I first started to have. So after that you know I stopped I stopped I mean I still was going to meetings regularly. Don’t get me wrong. It was just. Well I’m not going to do the extracurricular things I’m going to focus on my business. I’m gonna make all my meetings but I’m not going to I’m not going to be searching for any privileges. And I’m also not going to be going out in service more than I asked you to say quote unquote regular.

[01:49:39] So from that point it was just my head down my tail between my legs and I was just doing it as a formality to keep my wife happy and my parents. So yeah sounds like they didn’t offend you they just kind of took the wind out of your sails. Yeah. This kind of motivated you. Yeah because I couldn’t really fully understand how somebody can be so arrogant about such a touchy topic and not want to discuss it and just assume that they know better than they did. They proved that it was merely authoritarian. That’s what it was about. It was absolutely. Here you go. I’m the voice of authority. And I just told you no. And now you’re going to fall in line. Right. And I would definitely like to see. And you know I would see their point of view if there was an evident change in my personality my lifestyle. Sure. My this or that. And that was you know I hid it from everyone for years. So that was clearly evident that it wasn’t an issue. Oh but no one knows. Yeah yeah exactly. And if and if Jehovah knew then why was life going according to plan in my mind. Yes so that was that like I said you know. And from that point on I just kind of stuck to myself and did just the bare minimum to keep you know quote unquote regular and then I really had an issue like I started to have an issue with well what else is a gray area. Because I wanted to have facial hair for the longest time and I never really questioned or debated that as well.

[01:51:12] And I’m totally not the type of person that would do something out of spite of attention or wanting that type of attention. You know what I’m saying. Yeah. Yeah. But now we’re getting to the point where I was starting to miss more and more meetings. And me and my wife were getting along as well because of my perception of what the organization started to become in my mind. So I told her like I just don’t think it’s absolutely necessary that I need to go out in service every weekend or X amount of hours or do extracurricular things. And it started driving a wedge in our relationship at that time. So for me I was just like you know whatever I started growing a little bit of scruff. And I’ve always had really sensitive skin too. But that was 100 percent not the reason why I wanted to grow a beard it’s just for the longest time I always wished I could I just never understood why we couldn’t so because I don’t have another. Right. Right. So because I started going less and less to the hall. You know I started to grow this scruff and you know I come to what we come from work with scruff on my face in work clothes and I get those comments like you know brother scratching my chin like what’s this. It’s like I look down and I’m clearly in my work clothes. And that’s how it started and once I saw how much of a issue was was just like I don’t care I just started growing a beard and this included me just going to meetings with.

[01:52:45] It wasn’t a full full on beer like it is now but it was evident that it was a well. Well trimmed you know and kept the beard and that was an issue. And you know I got pulled aside and say well this this and this can’t happen for you knows that we’re doing that. And I said Well I’m not really reaching out to do those things so it doesn’t really apply to me. Don’t you think. And so I started to get a little bit more sarcastic with the brothers because I didn’t. I started to lose respect for them and the the way that they would approach things like you should know better or I know better. And that’s just that. And that’s not a bad right. You know settle well with me. So getting further along in my I guess my spiritual digression was me eventually I’m going to less and less meetings and telling my wife like there’s just some things. You know I started studying doctrine and mind you I hadn’t started doing any outside research really for that. Other than like you know finding more information about Russell or Rutherford that was about it. That was the gist of what outside resources that I would do on Google. Right. And I still didn’t touch any other information outside I really don’t. Into more of a doctrine. So when my wife would go to meetings I would stay at home in my office and get some work done. And while she was still gone instead of just watching TV which we didn’t have TV the whole time we were married.

[01:54:21] I would just stay in my office and do research within the organizations publications I get old publications from you know that they stopped printing and wanted to fade out because they were some misguided doctrine and they were trying to make sure that the public didn’t see what had been written before and stuff like that. And I was really diving in to what they had produced what they had published and things were just starting to fall apart for me within their own writings. Oh yeah. And that’s how it all started for me to eventually cease all meeting attendance service everything and you know really start growing a little bit of a longer beard. And I saw an immediate drop off with people stopping stopping associating with me. My parents started acting differently towards me. And especially my wife. That was the hardest part was we had multiple conversations about our spirituality and I’m not the man that she had met and I said I apologize about that. You’re absolutely right. You know there’s a lot of things that I was doubting even from the beginning that I should have been upfront and honest with you. But it was just too say this is too sensitive of a subject back then and you know it was just a lot to deal with. But now that I’m a little bit more established I have free time I get to dedicate that free time. However I see fit and I wanted answers and the answers that we’re finding were not sufficient enough for me to dedicate my time or devotion to this organization any longer. To the extent that they want and she lost a lot she lost all if not most all respect for me.

[01:56:06] Once I took that Stampfer just saying I doubt a lot of things I’m not going to meetings anymore with you. She would hold over my head like I stopped doing family study with her and she was like this at the very least that you can do with me and I said you know what if there’s one thing that the organization has taught me as it says to make the truth your own. And I said you should be doing that yourself because I’m doing that. And this is the resolve that I’m finding and it’s not that I don’t support you in what you want and what you would like to be doing but you should see my side of it and do the same for me which is I’m not pushing you down the path that I’m going in nor should you be doing the same to me. And at the end of the day this has no they should have no factor bearing on our relationship. This should be our own personal resolve with our spirituality. But that’s what the relationship is built on when you want to Jehovah’s Witnesses. Yeah. It’s one of the main chords very seriously. And that that that to me was the most devastating part was it was how the organization drives in two married couples lives that Jehovah comes first. And and at the end of the day if that’s what you believe in and you need that you know that driving force to make things make sense to you by all means. But at a certain point I realized that that is absolutely not the truth. Your family comes first.

[01:57:31] And most importantly your mate so in my mind I just thought well she’s not going to be accepting of how I view this religion and my mindset and my stance that I’m taking. So I’m going to go full force into my business. And that’s exactly what I did. I wanted to provide for her more and more. And like show her like look I’m not falling apart just because I have a difference of beliefs. If anything we’re become better and it wasn’t a more open meaning to be a materialistic thing but it was letting her know that you know I’m not falling apart you know I’m driven. I have a mindset and I wanted to prove that to her. Well yeah actually you know what you had said before too in addition to that was that she saw that when things weren’t going well for you guys she saw that as a lack of Holy Spirit. You know if you dive into your business and your business is doing well there’s Jehovah blessing you now. Right. You know it’s funny that you say that because that’s exactly how I perceived it which was if I was being if I was grieving God’s Holy Spirit and I was acting directly against what he commands us then why why why is it within the year the first year of me stop stop going to or attending meetings rather My business grew 50 percent in one year. So this was something that was clearly evident that was not the case because I always lived my life with the assumption that if I’m not doing exactly what I’m told things will just fall apart.

[01:59:07] And that’s not the case what the case was is when you actually use your mind and dedicate yourself to something and you have that driving force and you stick to it. It will always work out you know the better. And people can’t get people in the organization can’t understand that they just they throw caution to the wind and they throw up their hands and say well I’m going to let Jehovah take care of me. And they pray. You know it’s just hop out it is it is and it’s it’s OK it’s just stopped making sense for me. And I wanted to prove that to my wife you know. You know without words which is like well look tell me that I’m doing wrong. Right. And it still was never good enough for her. She you know she just wanted a spiritual head. And I get that and I can’t fault her for something like that because if she if that’s something that she ultimately thought I was then that was my fault. But what I can not get over was the fact that it was the determining factor or the make or break for our relationship because it got to the point where she just didn’t respect me at all. She would say disparaging comments to me about it to other people embarrassing things that were private. And yet. Yeah. And I think in her mind she justified it because she wanted to make me look bad to others even though even if others looking outside in would see that that wasn’t the case I was doing just fine not going but she would throw these little tidbits in to make me look kind of bad in a certain way.

[02:00:44] And you know I think she just did that out of a defense mechanism for her own sanity. But at the end of the day you know it wasn’t fair and you know it got to the point with our relationship where we stopped having any intimate relations with each other. And and it was because she just I can tell that she just never was into it anymore. And I after after about a year and a half of you know very hit and miss intimacy huge gaps in between you start to really question why am i even with this person. And that’s that’s when things started to really fall apart for our our relationship is she. She dove more into it and I drove more out of it. Yeah. And I think it was a bit of stubbornness on both of our parts. And so when she would dove more into it I dove more out of it. We were almost living separate lives at this point because she was just so dated with spiritual things. And I was initiated with you know pursuing other business opportunities and my business that are already in preexisting business and household projects like we were on completely different schedules. We would virtually just eat together. And it got to the point where we just barely saw each other so. And now we’re to the point where I’m questioning like why are we even together like if we could have made this work. You know I’m trying over and over like this.

[02:02:23] I’ll accept you for who you are just accept me for who I am and it just wasn’t ever good enough and I remember distinctively that what was it I think 2000 in 15 I was sitting at a bar waiting for one of my other friends to show up in this friend was a lifelong childhood friend. And he was he was born and raised in the new organization too. But he he started to have doubts like me too. So we would kind of have our own little secret meetings and just yeah and we would we would just talk about doctrine and this or that. What did you hear on this podcast and by and he was kind of like my outlet you know. Yeah. Which was somebody who I can share a mindset with of understanding of how the faith system works. This organization and the doubts that you could possibly have in why you can justify those things. So as I’m waiting for him to come have a beer with me. It was at a local bar in my my neighborhood I’m sitting there waiting for him and I get approached by this woman and she said Do you have a couple of minutes. I’d like to interview for something. And I said I mean what is it. I was kind of weird I was like What is this in regards to you. And she’s like well and she sits down and she has an iPod and she’s like I worked for you know like a commercial agency or this or that. And it only take three minutes of your time and in my mind I was like yeah whatever lady like whatever. But I was just too nice and I was just like sure whatever let’s do this.

[02:04:02] So she asked me all these questions and Bombon at the end she’s like I’m I know that you might think of it this is weird but I’m literally a talent scout. And I think that you would fit this role that we’re looking for. And I was just like OK like whatever so I give her my e-mail address I don’t think much of it. And you know two weeks later I get an e-mail saying that that she passed along that footage because she had a guy with a camera and passed along my footage of the interview to one of her superiors and that they would like me to come to a casting call. So unlike I went from sitting on a bar getting interviewed by this lady thinking she was crazy to and possibly being in some light commercial or something and I’m thinking well this is cool like that. I’m thinking like well why not. Like I have the extra free time you know while my wife still her thing like Why not try to see where this goes. And I remember getting an e-mail and I ended up eventually going to that casting call and it was for a Chevy commercial. And we do basically I get selected we do the shoe and then they air it nationally. And I was so stoked on it because I was just like this is so cool this is so Raddy was so random. I was excited for it and I was like telling my wife about it and she she just wasn’t having it like you could tell that she was just faking the funk. Yeah that’s that’s cool like. Because I was already going down a path that was making me more happy. Yeah.

[02:05:41] Like one thing after the other would be happening where these were opportunities that if I was grieving God’s Holy Spirit then why was everything being handed to me. Because it was just drawn in here. And that exactly and that’s and that’s exactly how my parents and her perceived it which was you know this is how it happens this is what you’re doing and blah blah blah. And so after after her not being like supportive of it I remember just being really bummed like man this was a cool opportunity for me and I was just really stoked on it and I would have hoped that you would have been at least somewhat excited you know with me and I wasn’t getting that from her. And so after that we are. Our relationship is just starting to go further further downhill and you know we’re living more and more separate lives and I ended up needing another girl through. Mind you this is another Jehovah’s Witness through a buddy who was another jobs witness as well down south. And I would go hang out with this buddy every now and then because it was just kind of an outlet like if I wanted to get away while you know my wife was with her super spiritual family in another town I would just go down south and hang out the beach with a buddy that I knew from down there. He was also a witness. I met you know one of his friends which was another sister in the organization. And then we started having more and more contact with each other.

[02:07:18] And at first it just started out with you know just random you know social media like laughing sending stuff and then it turned into more of a conversation. And I got I started getting to know this person and I looking back on it I think I was just trying to fill the void that I didn’t have any more with my wife where I was just like Yeah this this happened this was cool and you know I’m looking forward to doing this and that and you know just just random stuff. And then over time you know we started to develop I guess more and more of a relationship and I stopped and I thought to myself well this isn’t this isn’t right. Obviously like there was a real turning point where it turned into wow this person just kind of like filling my void of conversation that I don’t have with another woman which would have been my wife. And now this other girls giving me this attention and really interested in what I’m saying and vice versa. We’re in where we have a lot in common. Yeah. And then somewhere in between it turns you know somewhat romantic to where she’s wanting to like hang out and stuff like that I might not like that. This is not going to happen baba. And for a while I just wrote it off like there’s no way like I’m just go hang out with her. But mind you this is at a time in my relationship where me and my wife are virtually not talking. We were we were roommates at best. I was sleeping in my office for three months before it got to this point with this other lady.

[02:09:02] And it got to the point where I sat down my wife and I told her listen our intimacy has to change your view of where my spirituality has to change and you just have to understand that that’s just not where I want to be. But that does that should not affect our relationship together I want to make this work. This and that and she would she would say that she wanted to but she would never take the necessary actions to change. And I got to a point in my mind where I was just like I I can’t do this anymore you know. And I decided too that I was going to leave. I was going to leave her and then I wasn’t even necessarily thinking about this other girl that I was talking. I just was like well how am I going to do this. You know jobs when they’re told like once you’re married. The only way that you can remarry is if there is infidelity. And I thought well I was so upset with the organization at this point because of all of the judicial meetings and the vague understandings and there are vague answers rather in the way that my wife was starting to treat me because of my lack of spirituality not my lack of taking care of her. I was really upset how it just threw my life into a downward spiral mentally. And so I was just like well if if that’s how they want to play the game then that’s Harmon go out and so with this girl that I had been talking to. We ended up sleeping together and started a relationship.

[02:10:38] And I know my wife ended up finding out it told her what had been happening and she wanted to make it work. And mind you this relationship with this girl wasn’t even to the extent where I was just like oh I’m going to be with this girl for the rest of my life. It was the conversation had gotten to the point where me and her were under the understanding that we didn’t want to be Jehovah’s Witnesses anymore. And that’s a really weird place to be with somebody who is a Jehovah’s witness in the organization and you’re speaking to another one with kind of the same mindset of how can we get out of this. And I told her Well if I if I sleep with another person that in my mind was me doing my wife a favorite because number one it got me out immediately. It was just like the nail in the coffin and it allowed her squirt scriptural freedom to remarry. Yeah because a lot of people don’t start with jobs when he says that is the only way that scripturally a spouse can remarry and live another life with a happy life in that social construct or religion or that organization of they can never have another relationship for the rest of their lives. Right. You have a sexual relationship with someone else and it is admitted if you can get that if you keep that on the down low for the rest of your life and no one ever knows that your wife would have been stuck for eternity. Well yeah. However long life is you know not being able to ever marry again simply because of that. Yeah.

[02:12:17] And this was something that was not just a heat of the moment like passionate no idea or action. This was very very very methodical on my part. Now we’re talking about two years of a period where I tried everything that I could do with making it work with my wife maybe not spiritually but everything else under the sun. And just because of the sheer fact that I wasn’t the spiritual head that she wanted my whole my whole life went in a downward spiral as far as our relationship is concerned and I added get to the point where I was like well why are we together. I have different pursuits and goals and aspirations and so do you. And I got to this place that like I said it was very methodical on my part I thought well I’m not going to go through the process of separation or the divorce. And then having to one day call up her or my wife and say yep I had sex with somebody. Now you’re free like I couldn’t imagine doing that to her. So I thought I would rip off the bandaid and just get it done with. And that’s exactly what I did with that girl. That was that right. Yes. And so that you know me and my wife were married for seven years. Two of them two of the last year were really really hard to where I ultimately come to that decision. And what got interesting was it wasn’t what you wanted either. Absolutely not. No. I would have I don’t think people understand exactly what I was thinking because they never had the opportunity to have that conversation with me.

[02:13:51] It was when I got this fellowship with jobs when as soon as you’re disfellowshipped everybody has to write you off. You were shunned. They don’t talk to you. They don’t know your side of the story and what had happened. Because behind closed doors they didn’t know the in and out of my relationship with my wife. They just sawD.J. that it go to a meeting and he’s the reason but they don’t care about the truth they just care about appearances. Absolutely. And I was done with living that lifestyle which was I never felt myself when I looked in the mirror. I pictured somebody else and I was never that person. And it wasn’t that I made such drastic changes were completely changed and I wasn’t the same person. There was just little changes that I needed to do to make me happy. And that did not include getting more spiritual. So that meant getting more closer to my wife. That meant furthering our careers and getting to a happier medium that we didn’t have to be on the same page necessarily as far as spirituality was concerned in my mind because if that makes you happy go do it and I try to say that to her so many times like I don’t fault you for your belief systems. I will never judge you for it.

[02:14:57] But then it got to the point where she’s like Well I’m not going to I’m not going to raise you know if we have children I’m going to raise them in a divided household where you know their dad is in a Jehovah’s Witness and this or that was like in my mind I my I had to deal with the hand that was given me you know. And that’s the way I had to go out was obviously this relationship’s not working. I don’t want to be Jehovah’s Witness anymore. And I would have rather lived under a freeway overpass and go back. And that’s how strongly I felt was I could lose everything that I worked so hard for. And I would still be fine with the free mindset and independent thinking and the ability to have that independent thinking outside that organization and not the ties of a strained relationship anymore because it was just so mentally exhausting. Yeah. Once you’re done with that like there’s just no other way to be than just absolutely done like right. You will do anything to get away from it whatever the consequences are fine like you said if you have to go live under a bridge or whatever it just is what it is. And there is no choice. Once you know that that’s not what you want in your life it’s not like it’s something where you can you know kind of be I don’t know if kind of an all in thing. It’s very difficult to not. There are a lot of people out there and I’m sure maybe who were even listening to this who are physically in but mentally out you know most the album. All right. You know I think that if that’s if that’s what you want to do and you can do that like that takes a great deal of strength on its on its own front. You know it’s very difficult to live that right.

[02:16:52] And obviously some people can do it or choose to do it for family or whatever. And you know that’s awesome. If they can do it. But some people aren’t wired that way. There’s just no way. I don’t think there’s anything you know just for my personality type that could have kept me once I knew better. I just I had to be out but I’m just kind of an all or nothing person in certain ways you know. And we all have different personalities. So yeah I agree on the same type of person all or nothing and I think that that’s that might be something that people that have enough you know finding out from other people you know when I was out I didn’t know anybody. You know I was essentially a babe to the world and I didn’t have any friends. You know we’re not allowed to associate with quote unquote worldly people those that weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses so I’m in I’m somebody now 26 years old has no friends or ideas of just how to function without that social construct because it’s all uprooted from you. So there is a good portion of a year where I got I was just heavily drinking you know because this is ultimately not what I wanted. I wanted my family. I wanted the things that I still had. Minus that scriptural you know mindset or that perception of religion. And it really did a devastating factor on my mind. But what I found was through talking to other people that I had to. I started meeting was how much courage it actually takes to do what you ultimately have to do to be happy.

[02:18:28] And I think that that’s that’s one thing that witnesses that end up ultimately just throwing up their hands saying I’m done. I’m out. It takes an extreme amount of courage and you do and you definitely have to be an all or nothing person to jump ship. You know you do. You know it takes a lot of effort to jump from you know a ship that’s already sailing to jump into the freezing water to swim back to shore to build a boat just to get back out in the water again. It takes a lot more effort than just to ride that ship. Oh yeah absolutely it takes it takes a lot of effort to do that and then you know I know for myself I was just very fortunate that my wife came along and jumped off the ship with me just right. You know things just worked that way. But it’s it’s still like it doesn’t matter. Like that’s how it’s like one of the ways you know it’s called when there is literally no easy way to leave right. You know it doesn’t matter if you if your spouse leaves with you if your spouse stays behind. If your if you have children who stay behind like or if you stay in physically but mentally you’re out like there’s just no real way. To leave the cold without it negatively impacting you in a very harsh way. Well absolutely. And that’s where that’s where it gets interesting too is that I had never been to scholarship before. You know I had only been privately reproves so I had never really understood the negative ramifications of being disfellowshipped.

[02:20:06] Now while I was still in the organization disfellowshipping was something that I always just did it really comprehend. But I think as a jobs witness we just put it to the back of our minds and think this is just what has to be done and you just write it off but once you’re actually disfellowshipped you get to understand exactly how mental mentally manipulating it is to shun somebody to where it’s almost built by design that the organization wants you to fail. And they’ll say up and down that they swear that that is not what they intend. But when you rip somebody’s social structure their friends and family the only things that they are able to know because of the rigid rules and regulations. Once all of those things are gone and you are tossed into this big vast world you can easily get lost. And like I said a year after we filed for divorce and I was I got a place on my own. I didn’t know anybody. What was I supposed to do after I was done working. All I did was drink because I numbed myself from all of the emotions that I was going through. And I had no outlet. As far as the social structure was concerned to talk to anybody. So I was just you know I’m my own worst enemy in my own head. And they you know they want you to fail and come crawling back.

[02:21:26] And I had it at a certain point make a re-evaluation of my circumstances and say I have to better myself for myself and prove everybody wrong and then make an example for other people that are considering it saying his life didn’t turn to shambles you know it turned into Jim’s. And I think more people have to have that mindset because the organization wants you to come groveling back and crawling on your knees and being battered so that you can understand what a loving organization is and they’re always going to be there with their arms wide open. But they don’t understand how negatively it affects one’s mental cognitive functions. Sure. The best revenge is a life well lived. So right. You know go out live a good life and show them that they’re wrong. I mean if that’s all you can do and I mean absolutely. You know this is the only life that we know we have as human beings. You know whatever a person believes other than that that’s fine. But you know the only thing that we can literally prove that we have is this life. And every every day that we get as a gift. And so you know what else is there to do but to make it the best you can. Why why would you choose to do anything else. So yeah so go have you know you have to go have a good life and and hopefully you know sometimes that that is a good example for others who who want to leave to you know way. You know I watched this personally even and their life didn’t fall apart. Well maybe there is something to this maybe there is something to leave in this organization. Right. And I think we’re definitely headed down that path.

[02:23:07] I think there’s a trend that’s happening where more people more and more people are leaving in their understanding that they have to get you know for the longest time the society didn’t necessarily say like don’t go seek professional help as far as therapy was concerned but pretty much so in so many words. Did you say that you know to avoid that thing because now being outside the organization I think it’s becoming more and more of a trend with people that have left that they understand that it can be so mentally devastating that they do have to bandage those wounds before that they can continue. Whether that’s joining a community of abuse or getting a hobby something to better themselves and not to mull over the past because it can be so destructive. And if you don’t treat it that way and that’s something that I had at you know spend some time learning and being out. But once you find a good source of people to surround yourself with that you know understand what it could have been like to be raised and are open to religious conversations. It does wonders for your mind. And that’s that’s all I can say for anybody who might be considering it inside their religion because I know there’s three stages for me. When I was inside doubting on the fence and then outside there all three different perspectives. And if you have the opportunity to go through those you really do have to you know possibly seek professional help or you get a group of people that are supportive and not just do it on your own. Yeah. You’re not going to be able to do it successfully all alone. It’s too it’s too big. Absolutely.

[02:24:52] It’s just too big. Yeah. So then. So you’ve been out now for what a couple of years. So approaching two years. OK. Ann’s have you. So then you know you know just because you’re disfellowshipped although shunning is the policy of Jehovah’s Witnesses at times not everyone’s family lives up to that policies. Have you ever heard from your family again or is that it. You know it’s funny that you mention that you know because it’s you know is taking care of some taxes it’s tax season over here and I was filling out this form. And I remember the last real conversation I had with my mother was right before I was announced. And she helped me with a tax form. And as you know that is such a weird thing to think about is the last conversation that you had with your parents. Like a real conversation was about you know business or finances not like how are you doing. You know the family see you. Yeah yeah. It’s just some business formalities that she was eating me with. And you know there has been times where I’ve seen them at family functions. But what such a trip and I do not understand this and I don’t think I ever will is that because me and my wife are no longer together. They still treat her as family. So if I’m going to a world family function like my mom’s grandparents like anniversary for instance which happened a couple months back. They showed up with another witness family that’s not related to our worldly family. And they brought my my ex-wife.

[02:26:42] So they are going on vacation with her. They’re traveling with her they’re bring her to family functions that normally we would have went together with but we’re not together anymore. And they’re treating her as like a replacement. And I don’t understand that. I think that I think that they feel I’ve seen this before. I think that they feel guilt that is that they didn’t do something right in raising you that made you the faithful witness husband that she should have had. And I think that they are trying to atone for it by essentially adopting her as your replacement. If it is so fucked up. It really is. It is. It’s so strange. I’ve seen it before. It’s really weird. It’s so weird that when worldly people I mean who’s going to use the world world just like because now that I’m outside everybody who I associated associate with outside the organization is quote unquote worldly to people inside the organization. But when I mention that and they see it and I show them pictures they’re just like what the hell are you that is so it doesn’t even make sense on so many levels that it’s just even weird to somebody who doesn’t really understand that you know if one is disfellowshipped and the spouse stays in that they can still maintain some relationship with the person. But they literally replaced me with her and she does absolutely everything with them still as if I had died. Well there you go.

[02:28:15] So witnesses believe that essentially your parents believe that you will die at Armageddon and they will lay on into this panda paradise and they think that I have literally seen people write this on line of experiences or heard it where their parents are pretty much of the mindset that well so you know job in the Bible he had all these kids and and God allowed Satan to destroy his children. But hey God gave Joe a whole nother bunch of children in later life. So okay so it’s ok. I mean sure he he lost Johnny and Suzy but he Yeend Mike in jail whatever you know don’t say it’s like. So it’s this is this really messed up thing. And there are a lot of witness parents out there who not only after their son or daughter leaves the organization will replace them like they’ve kind of done here with your ex-wife but they honestly somewhere in their deranged minds at this point think that well others in the new system just have replacement kids for the ones I lost. And I don’t even miss them any more. I mean it’s the most messed up detached narcissistic thing. And that is like dad is somehow like at the core of this this faith that they have that they can do that. It’s something I’ll never understand. You know it’s messed up. You can’t understand it because you got your humanity back. They still have their strip from them you know. And I don’t know it’s just mind blowing. Yeah. And you know at the end of the day it’s so interesting because I had a conversation with my now being outside you know I’m rekindling these relationships. Take for instance my sister. Take for instance my sister who you know ran away at 16.

[02:30:20] There was a huge gap in years where we barely talked or saw each other and she now has five boys I have five nephews and yeah it’s crazy. And it took me over a year to reach out to her to say I apologize for not contacting you when I was an adult. And I could easily came and saw my nephews and you know I contacted my aunt my my dad’s sister who was disfellowshipped when she was 19 and has been out for almost 30 years. I’m Wrekin only rekindling these relationships and it was strenuous at first because I have to admit and apologize for being a grown ass man not talking to somebody because they didn’t believe the same thing that I did and my family did but they probably understand they did. And they welcomed me back with open arms and they said there’s absolutely no need to apologize and they couldn’t be more supportive. And I you know I just talked to one of my aunts the other day and she was just like you know one thing I don’t understand is how your parents could even even if it was that you just had had an affair with your wife. You know my mom did that to my dad as well when they were married. The only difference was they they stuck it out and stayed Jehovah’s Witnesses. But now now because I don’t believe the same thing and I did the same thing. But it’s for completely different reasons. My mom and father shunning me because of something that they had went through. It doesn’t make any sense at all. No it doesn’t. It does.

[02:31:55] And the difference is is I chose not to stay with my wife because ultimately I knew it would be better for the both of us. I wanted to ruin her life and ruin mine. It was no one I couldn’t do that be spiritual anymore. Be a part of that organization. And I wanted to let her be free. And there were certain steps that have to be taken within that organization that you’re going to be you’re going to be the problem you’re going to be the reason why everything failed is because you took that media out and you didn’t want to make it work. And that’s just not the case and people will ever understand that. And that’s why I love you know what you’re doing is because you’re giving people that have left a voice to tell their side of the story so that if anybody should come stumbling across this that still might be in and might know that person they’re gonna be like oh wow there is a second side of the story you know. Yes I did think about it that way. But yes I don’t know the other side because you know I’ve always thought about you know doing this as a way to give a voice back to the voiceless because shunning is a way to shut people up. Yeah. And yes it absolutely is. You know here’s the other side of the story here’s the side that you’re not allowed to hear that you’re not allowed to think about. And there are a lot of other stories out there of people who who have never been heard. And it feels good to be heard and validated.

[02:33:24] And and I don’t know it’s just so it’s so gross what they do and trying to. They’re like little kids sticking their fingers in their ears and going la la la. You like it. You know it’s so immature and it really is and I’m so honored that you know people want to tell their stories with me. You know doing this right. And and put out that other side. It’s I don’t know it’s a really cool thing to be able to do. Absolutely and that’s that’s the way that I viewed it was I got so low and you know I you know on paper when I was married and part of that organization people outside looking in our life was perfect. And and you know I don’t blame them for the way that things looked at face value. But that absolutely wasn’t the case. And now being shown you know I essentially lost everything that I worked hard for. But what I still have left that the organization can’t take away from me is my voice and my side of the story. So I was like if anybody were to question theirs and you know whether there’s somebody who might know me or not. I want to give that person an outlet that I found to when I was wavering in my beliefs was listening to podcasts about religion and people how they left their faith. It’s not easy but what people have to understand is that you have to be methodical about it. If you’re being manipulated manipulate the situation back because you need to come out on top to sustain your sanity. And yeah.

[02:35:02] So things like this where people are telling their side of the story and how they navigated around those things. I think you know we’ll do wonders for increasing the amount of people that gain that courage to jump ship and swim back to shore and start start over fresh like they deserve to that’s very well said. So what would you like people to know. Like who have never been Jehovah’s Witnesses to know about the religion like if you could tell somebody out there who has never been a witness you know other than your story. Like is there anything that you think that they should know about this this cult. No. I mean you just said it perfectly. I think that the only thing that I would say is that it absolutely is a call and that took me some time even outside of the religion to come to the conclusion of believing and you know. You know Joves witnesses will say oh we don’t we don’t define ourselves as a call or accept that type of terminology but if anybody outside is looking at jobs witnesses like they’re just a fun loving group of well-dressed well-spoken people they’d be absolutely correct. But it’s not by choice. They’re robots that is just conditioned to parrot and project what they’re what they’re taught through the publications that they’re only allowed to read so that to me would define a call at its finest which is this is what you get to take in.

[02:36:26] And this is what you do and if you waver you were you are shunned and you know I was just talking to somebody the other day and I said Jehovah’s Witnesses are like the Hitler regime of our time which is you know essentially ethnically cleansing the Earth which is you don’t you don’t believe or support this war. We have nothing to do with you and this is the last time Jesus is you know coming to your door. I mean their greatest hope in life is that Jehovah God instituted the great war of Armageddon to kill billions of people and whilom off the face of the earth. Just so this band of eight million people so their lives can be made a little easier. Right. Well thick you know dystopia they think you know that that your only hope in life that the only thing you can look forward to is the destruction of literally everyone and everything around you so that you can go hug a panda on a paradise. Yeah yeah absolutely. And honestly that was one of the first things that went through my mind as far as really understanding what I was a part of when if people just had the people in the organization just had the ability to go from the very beginning the furthest back all the way to Adam and Eve and the great sand. You know they you know they were instructed not to do something. They did it and we all had to suffer. And we we are basically chess pawns in Gods game of proving his you know is saying the devil wrong. And along the line look at how many people have died because of this game and it’s just getting to the point where you know they’re saying oh we’re living in the times of the end.

[02:38:15] No we’ve always said that the only difference that is change is that we live in the age of technology and the availability to share information is becoming increasingly more and more available to people to where they’re able to see the ins and outs the good and bad of what’s going on. And of course the battle is going to be highlighted because it’s the most interesting. But you know take for instance you live in in gaining a second time like that was the end of the world. You know what I’m saying. Right. Wouldn’t you rather live today or show up in the Roman Coliseum. Yeah exactly. And people people don’t like to look at it like that. That to them was the end of the world they were they would probably rather die than live. And now we’re you know thrown are ugg boots on and walking to Starbucks and you know meter is going to come down from the sky. But apostates are talking badly about their religion. What a horrible time to live. It’s ridiculous. I just really wish that people would take a deeper look and re-evaluate their situation even at the smallest level. Like going like I said all the way back to the beginning and Adam and Eve and how it’s just all just a game between. If there is a God you know somebody who’s dominating his power. So the assertion of power now that you you are out. Is there anything that you’ve learned since being out that has really helped you grow.

[02:39:41] Is there anything that any books any podcasts videos anything that that has helped you grow as just a human being or just helped you kind of clear your mind of you know the past or understand it. Yeah you know what I what I learned about myself first of all being outside was I didn’t realize how much stress and anxiety that I had within the organization that it caused me. And people tend not to understand that while they’re in it’s that. Do you ever look at what you’re a part of as being the cause or the root of whatever suffering you may be going through. People don’t want to believe that that might be the case. But in mine absolutely was because after I went to Yeah after I went to that period after leaving there was a good year where I didn’t want to deal with my emotions and I just was heavily drinking and just numbing myself. But once I really started to take a stand and meet the right people that motivated me to just like to just do your thing start living for yourself and stop thinking about the past because you know it’ll just repeat itself. And once I started to re-evaluate what I wanted out of life whether it was doing this hobby or dedicating this time to that you really start at once you start living for yourself it’s like the illustration of you know in an airplane incident where if you know you’re supposed to put the mask on your face first before you can even help a child sitting next to you. So once you understand that you really ultimately have to take care of your well-being before you can be beneficial to anybody else that that’s when you start growing and for me I started to become more of a kind hearted understanding individual.

[02:41:27] That was a really humbled by the experience. And a lot of the help that I had along the way was you know listening to Joe Rogan and some of the scholars that he has on and then going diving deeper into those scholars. You know Lloyd Evans wrote you know in his book The Reluctant apostate where he goes he jumps in You know he used to be an elder I’m sure you’re familiar with him in. Oh yeah. Yeah. You get a you get a understanding you know if there’s any Jehovah’s Witnesses that might be listening to this they’re still in the faith like this is taking from a perspective of somebody who if you didn’t tell you that he wasn’t a jobs witness and you just heard his voice you would think that he still was because he debates in the utmost respect and uses only their publications. Oh the debate is very good and that’s yeah. And that’s what I love the most. When I was just kind it put dip in my foot into you know quote unquote apostate material was that he didn’t use any outside resources other than really diving into their own publications and pointing out key points. Well this is how can be perceived and that’s how they perceive it. But this is how it should be perceived. Don’t you agree. And maybe you don’t but in a lot of cases I did. So his book and his YouTube channel was very instrumental of me starting to dive deeper into the publications themselves within the organization.

[02:42:55] And then also Ray friends you know crisis of conscious conscious and you know things like that these are these are the catalysts things that I would recommend anybody that might be wavering or may be outside looking for a sense of purpose. It really does give you a good outlet to justify the feelings that you have. And there’s nothing better than you know just feeling good about how you feel about a search situation especially when everything everything’s stacked against you all the people that you know or knew think that you’re in the wrong. Even though in your mind you feel that you’re not. So you’ve obviously learned a lot you know gotten some new and fresh perspectives. What do you what do you enjoy about your new life. You know since you’ve been out. What I love about my new life is the fact that you know I work so much and I’m busy. I work six days a week and a lot of that had to do with just filling time that I had. Now a lot of it was a lot of free time. Now that would typically go towards you know dedication to my spirituality in meeting attendance. And once you have those that free time you can really dive into what you enjoy. You know there was a recent broadcast thatJ.W. put out that that I watched that was talking about the unnecessary things of life you know and they’re filling a bucket with rocks and there’s big rocks about like personal study Bible reading field ministry and all the little Roxanne’s all the bullshit that you’d rather do. And you know it’s like take out all these little rocks of the big rocks could fit in because they matter most. And then sprinkle in some what you want to do.

[02:44:41] But in actuality if you’re not doing what you want to do then you’re truly never going to be happy and you’re never you’re never in a progressive life you’re just going to be stagnant. And I think that that’s the worst place to fall into. Yeah. Agree. It’s the cause of a lot of depression anxiety and misery in life when you’re living an authentic life. It’s not what you really want to do right. It doesn’t have to be extreme and that’s how my parents are my my ex-wife would say is like what. What is so beneficial to you now that you justify not coming back. And it’s like you don’t understand it. It’s so many things on so many different levels that you’ll never understand because you’re not questioning the finer things and until you do that you will understand if I was just thinking about how they just they can never. You said they could never understand. There’s a there’s a moment when you wake up and you’re finally free. There’s a feeling of relief that comes with that. That yeah. You know we all want for our loved ones to feel someday. Absolutely. And it’s something that I would say sadly maybe for myself at least I felt like I think there’s there’s almost a high that comes with that that you can’t you can’t get again in life without. I guess going back to some other torture is prison. Right. And you know riding out the other side.

[02:46:22] But there’s a piece that you get when you can just wake up each day and realize that this is your life and what you do today is your decision and you’re not looking to somebody else to tell you what you should do how you should think how you should feel. I really wish you know I hope you know for your sake and for the sake of those that you love that that you know as witnesses we would always if we had friends or family who were disfellowshipped or whatever we would say well you know as long as there’s time in a system there’s time for them to come back. Right. Well I’ll flip that and say you know as long as there’s time in those people’s lives you know there’s there is time where you know who knows maybe statistically you know at least one more person from our past comes out and maybe someday we get to reunite with them. And so I try to hold out hope even even though you know it’s a total crap shoot. There’s no guarantees. You know who knows maybe someday we get to talk to some of those people again. Yeah absolutely. And you know I look forward to hopefully that time being sooner than later. There’s so many issues you know in the news that the organization is being criticized for. And it’s just becoming more and more prevalent not to people you know outside the organization obviously but to people inside to that there’s a lot of things that the organization is covering up and not making public for a reason.

[02:47:58] You know once once people start to wake up it’s going to be because of the scrutiny and the criticism that the organizations are under and it’s going to start lighting a small fire for people to really look at the inner workings of the governing body and the things that they’ve been involved with the past. A lot of people don’t know that you know the investments that they’ve made in military and you know been part of theU.N. even though we’re not supposed to be a part of this world. It’s just it’s one thing after the other. If people just did the slightest amount of research not not. And that’s the problem with the organization is every day they want to just drive in New information new white like you’re so over inundated with new information you never have a chance to take a step back. And it’s funny being outside of the organization. You would think that oh somebody would you know they would crawl back or find their way. And that being outside would make them feel like they need to study and learn. But in fact I thought that that would happen to me. In fact it’s driven further because I’ve had that time to be more introspective and look into these things. And it’s it’s making me more and more disgusted for even being ever associated with an organization that can call themselves the quote unquote truth and hold those people to those high expectations. It’s hard to look back and believe believe that you once were involved in this. You know this cult you kind of already touched on it a little bit. But I just wanted to ask you know if if you had a moment and you could say anything you wanted to your friends or family that show you what would you say is there anything that you’d like to tell them.

[02:49:43] I would just I would tell them to really sit down and think about what your intuition is telling you not what is what is expected of you because you can let that get carried away and it can become your life in your mindset. But once you start to really evaluate here your intuition and what you’re internalizing and let that speak to you it will it will guide you to what you should be doing. And I doubt that it’s what what what they think it is you know they just don’t allow themselves to to just tease the idea of questioning. And once you know I think that God gave us free will for a reason if you know God does exist. And if there’s one thing that the organization taught me it’s to fight for what I believe in and now it’s not that. Yeah I was I was founded a little curious that they would you know harp on the freewill we had but yet they would essentially take that freewill away through their policies and procedures. Yeah as an organization it’s very hypocritical. It is yeah very very much so. JR There’s your past life I guess. How does your past life affect you today. You know you’re a couple of years out. Not really that long when you compare it to the length of time that you spent in church and clearly you know I think all of us doing this podcast or listening to this podcast today or in some way still in a process of recovery that that it will probably last a lifetime.

[02:51:24] But is there any specific way anything right now that you kind of struggle with from it that I see honestly just coming to terms you know the fact that when I’m in the you know for whatever reason I don’t know why but when I meet new people inevitably religion in my past will come up you know just because that’s all I had known so long. And so when they come to find out that I was a part of that they say to me not because I live in this super crazy lifestyle that it is not in accord with the Bible they just straight up tell me you do not strike me as somebody who would ever be a Jehovah’s Witness. And I take that as a compliment now is because to be associated with such a like mindedness is not a good feeling once you’re outside of it when you realize how indoctrinated these people are. It’s almost like you are a robot. And so what I’ve learned being outside of it is to really think for yourself and apply critical thinking and reason with everything not just in you religious or spiritual spirituality it’s everything in life and that’s how you make good decisions in life is when you really criticize every aspect you question everything and come to a firm understanding that way it is just it’s priceless. I like that you said you. You’re not afraid or ashamed to make your story known because that’s been a big deal for myself and my wife and it’s just it’s one of those things that if you’re vulnerable and allow yourself to be vulnerable people respect that and you know they will have a greater understanding of.

[02:53:21] I mean let’s face it I think all of us that leave the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses are any cult that has people isolated we fit in but only to an extent. Right. You know there are a lot of social things that I don’t get. There are a lot of cultural references that maybe I don’t get I didn’t watch a lot of the popular movies and things like that and I may not get certain references. But when you are open enough to tell people your story they they gain a better understanding of you. And then it’s easier to make friends but you have to be willing to put yourself out there. And it’s the. It’s not easy to do. It’s definitely not easy to be in such a vulnerable vulnerable position. But what I understand is that I have nothing to lose and I’m not ashamed of my past I’m ashamed of what I had to do to get to where I’m at now especially being married and having to do it I had to do to her that Yeah that is something that will always haunt me because there’s a big stigma about that. There’s a big label about men or women that you know cheat on their spouse. But what I want people to understand is that that that you’re sometimes your hand is forced in a decision. And ultimately you have to make something that goes innately against your standards or morals because they put those things in place not because you want to just ruin somebodies life.

[02:54:51] And that’s what I think is most important for people exiting is to tell their story their side of the story that it’s not all that somebody just lost their mind and they lost their way and that they just don’t know what they want. It’s not the case you know and what you know people tend to forget is you know we’re not the same people over time and if you get married super young inevitably you guys are going to change you guys are going to grow together you’re going to grow apart. You know I mean even science says that all of the cells in our body replace themselves. You know something like 10 years. So technically you’re a completely new person. And unless you have somebody by your side who’s willing to stick through thick and thin and understand you guys don’t have to agree upon everything. But if you guys want to make it work you have to be a little wavering in what you might like or not like just for the sake of you know working it out with your spouse. Yeah you’re not Jehovah’s Witnesses put a an unnecessary burden on married couples that essentially they are to be carbon copies of one another. You know that they are to have this there to be unified in the cold essentially believes and and it’s so unfair because that’s just not a couple is typically two people who although they may have some similar interests. I like this. There is a quote I heard one time minutes if the two of you are exactly alike then one of you is not necessary. Right. And I really like that you know you want to be in a relationship with someone who brings something different to the party.

[02:56:39] You know you don’t want carbon copies but we were raised in an environment where you did want carbon copies you wanted other people to think like you and feel like you it everything. And it’s such an unfair unrealistic expectation. Yeah. And it really negatively impacts a lot of relationships. Absolutely and I know it might sound cliche but one of the quotes that really got me back to those struggling years was Kurt Cobain saying I’d rather people hate me for who I am than love me for who I’m not. And I thought that that was so fitting within that organization is that sometimes you find yourself just living a life that is not you and you come to that understanding and you’re just like I can’t do this anymore. And I would rather those people hate me for that than you know love me for who I was just perceiving myself to be in front of them. It’s the weirdest thing to explain. Absolutely. So now you’re you’ve got this new perspective now you appear to be you. What do you have any dreams for your new life. Is there anything in you got any plans in the works or anything that you’re hoping to achieve other than just has it. Yeah yeah. I mean other than just being happy everyday. Now I’ve done a lot of traveling which has been great. It’s been getting my mind off of a lot of things and seeing you know experiencing new places and that’s been really great. I’m getting into real estate so I’m going to be holding on to the business that I already have in just getting into something that I think that I would enjoy. And I never got to that availability.

[02:58:13] You know I was kind of thrust into the workforce just for the sake of being independent but I never really questioned exactly what I would rather be doing. Right. And I think with that line of job as far as pursuing real estate you would allow me to you know have a little bit more of a flexible schedule than I do now as well as you know. You know different amount of income to where it would allow that I could have more time off to do more extensive traveling and that’s essentially what I’m aiming for is leaving for you know months at a time if at all possible to different places to really take in different cultures and understand the world even more than I’m starting to you know know it as it is now. I love I love that that sounds awesome man that I cut you off. I don’t know if I cut you off. Oh no no no. Have you any other dreams you want to throw out there but I think that that’s that’s awesome. I’ve never been able to go out and experience different cultures. But in our business we work around people at towns who have been able to and just the lessons that they’ve told us that they’ve learned from doing so and the beautiful people and things they’ve been able to see in their travels. I mean in the end life is about experiences and you know to be able to have those experiences and have that shape a mold who you are. That’s one of the more beautiful things you can hope for in life. Absolutely. I couldn’t agree any more.

[02:59:52] I want to thankD.J for being so vulnerable and for telling his story. I also wanted to add something here to clarify something for people that might not be familiar with the policy of Jehovah’s Witnesses regarding divorce. WhatD.J says here is true and I know it sounds crazy but Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that the only real grounds for what they call quote scriptural divorce divorce that gives you scriptural grounds to remarry is adultery. That’s it. So you can get divorced for other reasons though honestly they frown on that. But maybe now let’s say that you were you were being abused or something like that that you were in physical danger. Of course there are always going to push you back toward the abuser as many times as they can but they will sometimes allow divorce for that. But when you get divorced whether you want to or not or whether they allow it or not but you’re not scripturally free to remarry as they see it unless it is due to adultery. If you do remarry you must prove that your former spouse has moved on sexually to someone else or you might face discipline within the congregation. You could be disfellowshipped or approved. And yes I’m serious about this. This is this is real life. A woman might get divorced because her husband beats her but her sexuality is forever linked to the abuser. And so he takes it elsewhere and admits to it or you know maybe remarries himself or something like that which would obviously show that he has moved on so you can hear howD.J doing what he did was uncomfortable for him. You can hear how he has regrets.

[03:01:36] Hopefully you can imagine the ridiculous pressure put on him by this cult pressure that neither served him nor his wife nor anyone involved. This whole issue of divorce in the court is super messy and dysfunctional but they see him as God’s law and he knows best. So surely that these rules that are clearly not fair and that don’t work and are very dysfunctional they must be best because they’re from God as they see it. If you want to leave a comment forD.J you can do so. Shunnedpodcast.com. Again shunnedpodcast.com just click on the episodes page and you’ll see historie there you can leave comments there. You can also see more information and links to resources there. will have the opportunity to respond to you too. So you know it’s encouraging when people interact after somebody has been so vulnerable to try to help others with their story. Now next month we have a story of an amazing woman named Brenda that escaped the LDS cult. For those who are unfamiliar FLDS stands for the Fundamentalist Latter-Day Saints. So it’s kind of like a fundamentalist Mormon denomination. Their leader Warren Jeffs is in prison as a convicted child molester and is currently serving a sentence of life plus 20 years. He still controls the group even from prison. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen the show on Hulu called The Handmaid’s Tale but if you are then you’re familiar with the concept of a group that sees women as objects in just about every aspect of life.

[03:03:14] And in a world where women are reaching more and more for their rights and hashtags like me too are trending you know this is an interview that I think women will be really attracted to hearing. There are still places even in the United States where the culture of oppression of women dominates. Of course you know the interesting thing is that many women in this culture think they’re happy. And let’s not forget that you know it’s not healthy for the men either. This is the impacts of this group on their members of whether they be men or women. It’s fascinating but it’s also really frightening a look into a world that many of us cannot fathom but that is so real and hurting real people out there. So look for Brenda’s episode the first week of May if you haven’t already now would be a great time to subscribe so that you won’t miss it when it comes out. Now I’ve had people reach out to me asking if I have any ways to support the show financially. You can always support the show by leaving a positive review on iTunes that really helps because it helps get the word out so that you know more people can find it and maybe they can get help themselves. But I’ve also gone ahead and started a Patreon page where you can donate to the show now if you like. I do have ongoing costs. Every month that I put out there to keep this going you know don’t worry I’m not going to discontinue the show. I’m not going to be one of those people who threatens you. You know you know I can’t continue this show if you don’t donate.

[03:04:53] I’m not going to do that I hate that I’m going to do this show whether anyone pitches in or not because this is important to me. It’s important to the people that get to tell their stories and you know hopefully it’s important to you to as you listen. With that said there are ongoing costs and I’m taking a course in search engine optimization right now to try to help get this message out even more. Part of the SBO efforts could be having transcripts produced to help produce more contents on the site but it’s looking like that could costs anywhere between 30 and 50 dollars per episode to get that done. Depending on the length of the episode and that’s for a computer generated transcript that’s done with the program that’s not an actual human doing this. So you know that’s even a cheap way to get this done. I also pay for hosting for the audio of this podcast and also Jay stateJ.W. your life for the hosting of the Web sites. Spend time managing plugins responding to emails cutting out spam interviewing people producing audio of purchase microphones audio recorders I even purchased a new laptop because my old one was old and underpowered. So you know I’m all in on this. I will continue to be. This is not going anywhere. But if you choose to donate you don’t think I’m getting rich off this or anything. If you want to help defray the costs you can go to Patrie on dot com slash fund. Again that’s Patreon.com/shunned and you can sign up to become a donor if you like. I don’t have any rewards for you.

[03:06:36] There are options to set up rewards for people for donating. This podcast itself will have to be the reward for now it’s enough for me to keep up with already I don’t have time to create anything special on top of that. But you know if if you do choose to donate I really appreciate it and it does help defray the costs. I also had some t shirts made for this J.W. life that I wore on a visit to Brooklyn. That’s why I posted some pictures of myself from my wife wearing those shirts and there were people who liked it more like you know where can I get this shirt. I didn’t know that was really my story so I kind of felt weird selling shirts that other people would advertise just just my story on it. So I’m thinking about making some t shirts for shunned and you know if anyone has interest let me know I’m going to get some aid from my wife and see how they look first and then you know I’ll let you know that there could be another way to maybe support the show if I make a few dollars on a on a T-shirt sale. You know go to some measure of defraying costs but you know all that aside you know. Thank you so much for listening for supporting what I do here for the reviews on iTunes for the beautiful e-mails that I get from people for the comments that you give to people that I interview. That’s encouraging to me to see people get involved and support one another. Really just just for everything.

[03:08:12] I had no idea what power doing something like this could have in my own life and on the lives of those that get involved the lives of people who tell their story and then seem like they’re so much freer emotionally from from you know kind of walking up and unloading their baggage on some level this isn’t this isn’t just an audio program. It’s people’s real lives a slice of life that you know was silenced by these religious groups. And I’m glad that we can all come together and give this voice back to the voiceless so as always love others do no harm and go be happy.

Bonus Episode.mp3

[00:00:02] Welcome to the shunned podcast. This episode is actually a bonus episode. This is a little bit different. It’s really pretty much an excerpt from the pre interview that I did with David for his podcast. You’ve pretty much heard his whole story but there was well when I interview anyone. I don’t necessarily know their stories going in. Sometimes I know a little bit about them. Perhaps I’ve seen them on Instagram or Twitter or something maybe they have a little bit of a blog. There might be something I know at times other times I really go in completely blind. So when we were talking before his actual story while I was getting the levels together and just you know threw a little bit of chit chat he started. David started to tell me about this Steve B guy and things got real pretty quick and in that I felt like we had a conversation that was worth sharing that that maybe there were other people out there that might be helped by hearing some of what we shared together so I went ahead and extracted that excerpt from the preinterview. We actually ended up having a much longer conversation than even what you’re going to have here on this episode but I thought it was worth hearing especially for those who have been victims of abuse and you know of course any of us x Jehovah’s Witnesses can relate. So a lot of probably what you’ll hear here so go ahead and leave it to that and I hope you get something out of this. The Bee who was sort of predatorial was late.

[00:02:13] He’s probably in his 50s now but one of his things is he’s very Apostle Paul like taking young like that’s how it started was he was from New York and we were just some you know Minnesota kids and he’s like oh I’ll show you the world fluid out there my you my brother. And then the next time he thought well I want to show you the city more without. Not like Joan was drag but my younger brother just you by yourself. So that was when you’re in the big city is the only present I really know an out and out of of itself and it sucks cause as an adult you know I was 18 I should have been able. Like I felt so stupid and embarrassed and just frozen with fear. I should have been able to stand up for myself or use my voice or say it what what is this. But you know the power of church and trust in somebody who has influence over me you like whether or not you reached some arbitrary age. Adulthood is like I had nothing but boyish naivety and absolute trust in this person. It was unimaginable the scenario I found myself in and I froze and I did every. Even though I knew better. I really really tried to tell myself I was having strange dreams as what it was. You know you disassociated. That’s the psychological term you disassociate internally and and try to distance your brain is trying to distance you from what is happening. So it makes you feel like it’s a dream. It makes you feel it’s a protection.

[00:03:42] It’s like a built in failsafe for when something traumatic is happening and I go crazy because I just can’t like i’m cry a lot during this thing I know. But like just the fire inside. Like your whole body. If you’ve ever read those it you know it just instantly crumbles like I just thought I would absolutely implode like that for every second that stretched on. It could have been 10 minutes it could have been 20 years. I couldn’t I was so I just had nothing could have prepared me for that moment. Like all the prayers and like I just don’t know like it was some talisman over and over. Please stop please make us stop you know like nothing happened. Of course I of the awful outside. I also. Something you said. I just mean I’m not a therapist but you said that you you. You kind of blame yourself for. Or you said you know I was 18 and I should have been able to to stop it or whatever. And you know let me absolve you of that because that’s not that’s not true. The fact that predators groom people and this guy it sounds like is a professional at it. He had you in a situation where you were isolated he did something that you would have never expected. Freezing is a natural human response. We all have the flight or fight response and you don’t get to pick what it is that’s that your body naturally does and your mind naturally does in such a situation. So you know for some people yes they would fight. But that’s just that’s just a natural thing. It doesn’t mean that they chose that either.

[00:06:00] A person who flees even if that fleeing is to disassociate mentally to to leave their body essentially you know mentally that is that is just a natural response. And it’s not something that we have control over. I god I just I wish that it never happened to anybody. And I do fear that this guy I mean the way he invited you up there and all that like every time he’s ever come to Minnesota he usually brings a New Yorker where they’re big city folk and they don’t know the country like rural Minnesota come out in service with us once in these rural territories were every road is gravel and straight for miles. Like I think he travels with people a lot. I just wonder it’s usually like a young male traveling companion you like to meet the Barnabus and all that kind of like Apostle Paul. People like it when you’re in the truth because it feels like the apostle Paul. I’m thinking. Has any of these other guys like Was I an isolated incident like that which is that of itself. I’ve had emails with other people and I’m very clear like I said that’s why aren’t I thank you for your absolving me of it because I’m past that. But I still feel the I’m past it and I know it but knowing it and like is just one of those things and that’s why I don’t know actually intellectually knowing it and you’re emotionally feeling it exactly.

[00:07:33] Exactly because yeah that’s one of the things I always told Missy is you know like the part that sucks is we can sit and watch the Scientology stuff and she’ll talk about someone who is like 087. And I not having been raised in scientology I just get the sense of that comment means all of this was a person high up high ranking. And so I understand that that adds weight to the argument about to be presented. However that doesn’t impress me when a witness so if I hear somebody who went to Bethel or an ex elder there is this emotional like oh that’s the impressive thing because you are familiar with the sacrifices and time commitments it takes to get that far up and then you just feel like it’s when I ever stop being Can it just come like mindless information like as simple as 087 where I won’t be impressed that someone made it that far up or I won’t have those emotional responses to it. That that should be something that registers as simple as reading something I was not familiar with. Yeah I I don’t know if if you’re aware of this and I guess I I don’t know if this is helpful at all or not. It’s so. I know myself as a witness. I was pretty judgmental and as witness as we were taught that’s that everything we did was basically our choice.

[00:09:08] We were kind of conditioned control freaks to think that things that happened to us were things that we we wanted to happen because we made choices that led to those things and there are I used to always wonder I could never grasp why let’s say a battered woman would stay with her husband or there were instances where I’ve heard of people who were raped women let’s say in this case who were raped who then went back to that same man and then like dated that person. And I could never understand that. But what I’ve come to learn is that it’s kind of our brains way of trying to prove to ourselves that we did have control and that we wanted it. People tend to go back to their abuser because they’re trying to their brains subconsciously. It’s not a conscious thing it’s not a conscious choice but their brain is so traumatized it’s trying to set up scenarios whereby they go back to that person so that they can feel like yeah like I have control over that so that they can make it right so that they can maybe flip the script and you know from an outsider’s perspective it looks like you know well maybe you weren’t raped. I mean look at you you’re going back to this person and you know the witnesses would use the dog returning to its vomit or whatever crap script they use for that stuff. But it’s a natural human psychological phenomena. It is not a moral failing. It is it does not make a person a bad person. It makes a person a hurt person that is following a natural course. And that makes a lot of sense. It’s so funny because when I heard your story it just spoke to me so much that I got were like super similar like a lot of ways. But I also really like the heart which you came from. You know it felt like I’ll get into that when we tell the story more or less.

[00:11:22] But the idea that I thought God this is the person who went through what I went through but thought and felt so the humanity side of you like I don’t know if you were taking a personality test the common ENFP you know and like most witnesses you will find fall into that category of where we belong to the idealists whether it’s teacher the healer and stuff like that and sort them into a lie A.J. if I remember oh OK I may be wrong on that. Yeah I think it’s just interesting how like it’s weird because it’s a religion that brings a certain mindset it attracts a certain mindset and then it festers it further and then like whether you’d like you said about the dog returning to its vomit or there’s so many things that we do. Naturalise humans that I feel I know from myself. I was a young wild teen who wanted to push the envelope a lot you know rebellious and read Lord of the Rings and books like that and I listened to heavy metal music and you know I had a lot of that. But for me the funny part was I cared which also made it hurt a lot. Like what people thought did hurt. And you know I tried to think for myself and push the envelope and eventually my very first disfellowshipping. That’s kind of exactly what it was when I said you know what I’m not going to do anything like awful but having to just I’m just going to go out and just get my sense of self disfellowshipped almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[00:12:55] So then I can start over at zero and like all this nonsense that where I am waffling between what my issues are will be clear cut and then it just climb climb the ladder that I wanted to hit that rock bottom so I could climb up. And then if you like until you identify that bottom for me the bottom like my wife you know she thinks like she loves that I was squeaky clean the stuff I did that pushed the envelope you know like for my first disfellowshipping it basically amounted to lose kont inducts which only is to sell shippable if there’s a pattern of it because you’re clearly not quite sure what it was. You know it’s just like you’re so squeaky clean. I’m thinking I know but like this is stuff I hated myself like I to watching my actions in my own hands like do things that you know just it’s put in you. Of course of course that’s how they control you. They make you feel shame that you’re a horrible human being over normal human things and that is how they get their claws in you. And you know once they have you feeling so terrible about yourself you have to turn to them for everything for you know what is right what is wrong because obviously you don’t know you’re a horrible person. So yeah I mean that’s that’s how they control you men. I don’t know I’m just I’m just so sorry. That’s you know you had to go through those things. I’m sorry that all of us had to go through all of these things. It’s part of the reason I guess I’m doing this podcast too.

[00:14:39] And the reason I told my own story was to shed a light on it because there is a good life out there and it’s not to be found in Jehovah’s Witnesses. People need to know that people need to be set free because there are a lot of people walking around feeling terrible about themselves and the implications of this. You know I guess I’m not sure how long you’ve been out but it still has an impact years later on people. I was just in fact I just got a new Facebook friend the other day. It was somebody that that I knew growing up and I don’t man I don’t know how long she’s been out but it’s probably been at least over a decade and she’s just now looking at the stuff and starting to wake up. You know she’s in house and she’s disfellowshipped she’s she’s living a different life. But it’s so hard to look at this stuff because it’s so traumatizing for most people that you know it takes a long time to even get enough distance from it where you can start to look at it. I know I have three brothers IRL two brothers and sisters three siblings still alive. And my brother just got married in October and his wife you know I right now I am finally comfortable enough and secure enough and I’m worthy enough to say no this was or I was wrong. You were in the wrong. You know this was wrong. This is failed by use the B. I was failed by you and I. Come and get me. You want to challenge it. I dare you to. You know you look yourself in the mirror and try to say it with a straight face it didn’t happen like this religion is wrong wrong wrong.

[00:16:35] And like I rail against this organization I told my brother Jonah I’m an apostate and he’s younger than me and he’s been out for over a decade but he’s just happy working. Being a businessman and living his life you choose tobacco and drinks all the time you know he’s a good guy he just has those habits that are you know I don’t want to I still live a clean life. I just am not a witness in my mind. But he like recoiled when I had just said I’m an apostate I’m quite an apostate. And I thought it was like I know I had slapped him because he’s and same thing about a brother Ruben like. These are people who have been out for over a decade and they look at me like when Ruben’s bride I have railed against that to her. I told her like how thankful I was just to be at this wedding because it’s the first wedding of any of my siblings. I was I was acting you know and that was a huge thing for me and I’m crying and I’m saying I’m so glad that I’m here for you guys I think Ruben found a really good mom and she’s like yeah. And we talked a little bit about religion I was like I said in religion I hate that I perpetrated that stuff. Misto real siblings real life going on and she’s like it’s OK. You’re here now. And I just can’t see why anyone would ever want to go back to that which really. Like what.

[00:17:47] So he thinks that he might have mentioned things to her where he still might believe it but these are people who have just grown so comfortable with. I’m going to smoke and drink and live what I want just knowing it’s wrong that I’m doing wrong and that I’m bad and I’m thinking no no no no no. Like you guys please look at stuff I will Baburova you books I will send you thing and I want them to like you just got married to this nice gal in a Lutheran church and she’s not like oh we have to wear church time forcing hers on you. And if you’re even hinting that down the line you want to go back to this. Been out for so long and the changes you’re going to have to make. I see that that’s going to be nothing but divisive and I don’t want them to for this especially you know like. And there will be problems in a marriage. But to bring this in is like you know destruction he. How can he even be thinking that because to me that’s like Ruben this religion has ripped our family to pieces and has done nothing but I don’t know. I think for him there’s a psychology that says until he was married you could never feel like he actually had the grounds to go back on and start over. Like what. I’m living in sin. What’s the what’s the point of going back to meetings but now that he’s got that he might be thinking about it. So when they told me you know apostate it was like I said well what interests me like I have a difference.

[00:19:06] I differ in my belief from that organization and I think it’s you don’t ever feel like you failed them they failed you and you you’re not you’re not living as you want and it’s bad and you’re wrong for it. They’re wrong. That’s the main thing is you need to understand it so I try to drop nuggets as I don’t know but doesn’t know how strong the indoctrination is. It is it is so strong that when you’re in it you never look at it because you’re told essentially not to look at it. Oh yeah. And then when you leave it you’re still not looking at it. And so that those feelings that shame that they implanted in you you still feel like a bad person here just because there are so many people I’ve met over the years that say and I remember we would meet them even when we were out knocking on doors and they would say well you know I studied with Jehovah’s Witnesses and you know mandos people they have the truth. But I just can’t live up to it. I just I just I just like to drink or smoke or whatever. And it’s the same thing it is. I mean you have witnesses active witnesses in good standing. That’s acts that behave in a human way. Whether that is the way they know the way they drink or you know some quote vice that they pick up or whether it’s the way they behave with the opposite sex or the same sex or whatever and they end up leaving because of the behavior but that’s a physical external thing. No one has addressed internally how they feel about it.

[00:20:57] And then here they are a decade later and they still feel internally the exact same way that they felt when they were sitting there in the Kingdom Hall being indoctrinated and it’s just it’s just amazing to look at humanity and how it can be manipulated. It’s really scary how it can be manipulated and I feel it I feel for your brother if that’s because it’s not a happy life. No. And I think he’s smart enough and he will win now and thank god. Honestly thank God like that. But you know my goodness that I am in the position I’m in now with the courage I have. And I know what I know and I own crisis of conscience even though I’m only halfway through it you know and I feel like I have a hard time reading it. It’s like I don’t want to finish. You know. Yes I get to a certain point and I say this is the nail in the coffin and then I look at how many pages are left I’m thinking good god there’s that much more to write about still like oh I can’t handle it right. I wouldn’t doubt it. A month later people have to go at their own pace so I’m not telling you what pace to go. But I will just encourage you a lot of people are kind of surprised that I guess how quickly I’ve been able to change my thoughts and feelings about some things that. Look Like. It’s a. See it was 2000 when I started when I got became suicidal and then it was 20 16 15 2015 when I left. So it took me you know quite a few years to start getting healthy emotionally and mentally.

[00:22:49] And then even then when we officially disassociated and left in September of 2015 I still on some levels thought they had the truth and kind of planned on kind of going out and being almost like an independent witness like just being I mean I wasn’t going to go to Keenum Hall or anything but I kind of still believed in a lot of the things and I’ll tell you I the only way that I know to do anything in my life the only way around is through. And that means for me if I’m going to get past something I have to. I literally immerse myself in it. And so every day when I would come home from work I would be on I hate even using the word apostate websites but I would be on different Web sites for Jehovah’s Witnesses reading and participating and asking questions and just diving in head first. Every day I got a crisis of conscience somebody had on YouTube and I ripped the audio from it and I would listen to it while I was at work. You can’t for me. I could not. The program slowly. Because every time I would get away from the deprogramming I would start thinking oh maybe they’re right. What about this. What about that. Yeah. And I just had to keep pushing until I examined everything so thoroughly that it has completely changed me as far as the way I see all of that stuff. And it’s a grieving process. It’s like anything else.

[00:24:40] I mean there’s going to be appointed time where you’re sad for everything you’ve lost there’s going to be another point in time where you are pissed off. Yes yeah. It’s I’m right there with you. I think my conversion was actually much swifter. It’s just that my life changed so quickly which I’ll get into that when we tell the story but I’m with you. And to me it’s just such a weighty happy book. Listen to a few podcasts which is also part of the interview. It’s just one of those things where the conversion of my mind was just such like even your podcast really really helped me a lot because like rey friends and like you I don’t know if you’ve ever listened to the critical thinker podcast. Yeah. Lady C. NJT 80. I right away knew. Oh. These were good witnesses. And I hate to use that term. Good or bad. But what I felt was the right. I was like Oh my goodness. A Bethyl like that impressed me. Now you’ve got my attention. Plus they just reek of people who aren’t bitter grinding axes railing away like there’s a lot of bitterness out there just for so so. But that wasn’t the message that was speaking to my heart it was. These guys are trying to help people and they have done. I know what research sounds like they’ve done their research and you could tell they are so lakes up sticky and he would and his first few podcasts JT and see what I liked about him whether it was like 10 minutes long. It was like a sort. It was like oh your bible study had such quick. Here’s the topic.

[00:26:18] We’re not going to get off topic and there’s a lot of topic and he just hit the approach shared a few like damning scriptures or things of their own from previous literature. And he thought reanimates that’s quite your list. After a 10 minute presentation of his against something the unwitnessed if you want to call it that. It was like I was left with an impression and then as they got into their longer like hour long podcasts like I thought these guys are they’re right they know what they’ve been through. And this is the guy who when he shares like the behind the scenes stuff happens at Bethyl or assembly halls and they count the money and pay payroll. And you start to realize oh man I know and what I loved about it too is I’m very rural Minnesota like I don’t want to say backwoods everybody else in my area’s backwoods hunting fishing Scandia. Blaze orange. All that I am different from my area which is one of the things that appeals to me about who I am but in my area I’m still not exposed to that. It’s good to hear that BTC and JT Who are you know very urban and have like well Kakuna most of the city folks just like to say it’s the same stuff everywhere and that’s awesome. I never thought about that perspective. But of course that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. Remove it from different perspectives and to see that it wasn’t just you. It was everywhere.

[00:27:39] Yeah and it wasn’t like well maybe if I lived in a hall where like when I went to New York I was like how many people like you have a year’s text and a bazillion languages up here. Be like how many people get in this hall. He goes It’s easy for him to be anonymous. I hate to go against him again. That’s just like grinds of course you could hide New York City just a few blocks over there is another kingdom hall and this would say I met this one now and people are always coming and going and all I used to go to the three o’clock meeting but work the schedule unless you could make an excuse for skipping out on the one o’clock and I just felt like such a tumbleweed. Like traveling around the world as he does and he’s never stayed in one place long enough to be appointed as a ministerial servant there just. I just. My gut tells me there’s others out there you know. I mean I can’t say for certain but I will tell you with 99 percent certainty that that guy what he did to you was crafted was well crafted and you don’t get to that point. I wouldn’t think on your first time that guy has done this before and he will and he may still do it. And that’s that’s a scary thought. Yeah. I don’t know that there’s a weirdness to it that like the analogy I always use is I don’t know which one is better and this is from an e-mail I first sent Steve when I was describing the thing is I think in his own weird way though to that he was partially I think he was gay first of all at nonpracticing gay and then the truth or the organization they make no allowance for that.

[00:29:18] So he was told put those feelings to bed will fix your brain and your system. So maybe he had been keeping it at bay and then he met some cheery eyed like naive boy like me enough where I think there is even though there was a good age difference. I do. It’s part of me says maybe I was this saw pray like because he was in a way in love with me and I was the one like I believe a lot of these guys are creeps to where I was I just don’t really want to say a special case. But like their expert profiles like where they can you can put them make a creep watch a bunch of kids at the playground and somehow they have this innate sense to say that’s the one who won’t tell anybody. You know that’s the loner kid that’s the one who you know just like I don’t know how. I can’t tell if it’s easier to be the one off and then say at least I took all of it. Or if it’s easier to digest by saying I was just another house in the dorms path of a tornado and like unfortunately there’s a lot of us out there. I think I think it’s just different. I don’t I don’t know that one is I mean statistically it’s better if it was only one person that he hurt. You know that’s from a various statistical way of looking at it. But you know in the end I think what matters most is not him but you know I think I just think it yeah. Part of me wants to see it burn to the ground though.

[00:30:57] Like I know I agree on. I because he’s still traveling out there and he has because he’s so likable and travelled so much he could literally quit his job live wherever he wanted and he would have just friends and couches to stay on the rest of his traveling wandering time any time you you mention him in any kingdom all they say oh wait. Can’t wait. He was back and I’m thinking if any of you people like I want to see like it’s one of the few things where I would chase it doggedly like just say you know like I don’t trust that the elders would ever help me anymore. You know they said they would I think it’s me. If I have to track him down and blast him and I could find his nephew on Instagram and just like I’ve told a few people where if if he didn’t know that when he went back to talk to you. It’s nice. I heard this about you were you know like I don’t know if that ever happened but a guy who travels like he does and him and the way he invites people to do things and the charisma and everything. I really don’t see him being a person who only did this to one person. Yeah. The you know the evidence the circumstantial evidence does not look good. I just I just don’t know what to say. I don’t want to chase this guy.

[00:32:24] Yeah that’s where things like that when I told the elders here even like lately as a social person I said well we had an issue come up and I went and talked to them about it and I said it’s the same stuff all over same stuff over because you know there was a situation that happened we got wind of it. We tried to alert them even though that this fellowship person that’s a scary thing where you say this is happening in your hall and they say you’re bitter we’re not going to hear your opinion because they can just broad stroke. It doesn’t matter. And when I went in I heard basically the guy was on the platform. I said he’s up there right now. So I stayed up to the meeting those cats are heroes. It’s the same garbage over and over and over like people you like a slap on the wrist nothing ever happens it’s like CNN and then that’s when they said wait wait wait. What tell us what the what do you mean with that. And so I called them this is what happened they said he never told us that. So right away I kind of said for their sake I was glad that they didn’t know that at least yeah. But then I went back to talk like well we’ll help you try and find him and when we left here we put this out and we can tell you this much we put on his publisher card like a little red flag that said shows an unusual interest in the young men and the congregation you know and a sense of that will follow him where he goes. Is there any way to follow him where he goes to know where he is like what if it doesn’t happen in a congregation.

[00:33:38] What if it’s some non witness kid that’s never going to approach an elder. So you won’t have a second witness like that and they’re like Well as you know good point you know that like. And they said well we will try and help you find them which I’m sure shut me up you know and got me out of their face. But I don’t know that it will ever really be done unless I do it myself and then the question of was it worth it. Where do I put my efforts that I feel. How much time do I want to invest just to get vengeance versus justice kind of thing. Well and I don’t know because it’s not just it’s not even just vengeance versus justice. It’s I’m sure you on some level want to protect the other kids other young people out there as well. You know. So I don’t I don’t know. I mean you’re essentially being put in a place as an investigator and you’re not necessarily equipped to do. I had my chance and I’m told them you’re you go home and I’ll when you as you though even at that I mean even if you went to the elders it would have been your word versus his. And he wasn’t going to cop to it. That’s true. And so even if you had done everything you could have in the in the moment unfortunately there are people out there that are very good doing very evil things ands I’m not saying it shouldn’t be pursued but I’m just saying that sometimes they are good enough at the games they play.

[00:35:37] To where they are ahead of where their victims would naturally be developmentally as far as trying to play that game with them to beat them. And I think that you know you know maybe you can go talk to you know like a real investigator or you know maybe you can go to the local police and talk to an investigator and say look you know how could I. Is there any way that I could because I’m worried that this is continuing to happen. How could this be pursued. Is there any way I could get information from someone or something I could do. I don’t know. I mean that’s a long shot. Sure. No. And that’s the thing that I don’t know. Like for me there’s there’s whether or not I have a form of recourse. I wanted someone to believe me. And then the thing was I went and I told the elders like of course of course when I went in I told the elders they said Oh we we we never had we never told us that David will look back the records because we thought we had talked to you and I said no because I came to the meeting and I said Well did he talk to you. Because I was surprised to still hear him commenting. I figure at least you would have a proof and been able to say he shouldn’t be allowed some privileges. But here he is current thing and I thought like he didn’t tell them anything and then I came to the others and I said What did he tell you in this very careful like elderly like we’re handling it. But he told us there was a closeness that he got misconstrued.

[00:37:13] And I thought OK so like. OK. So that’s what he told them. Got it. And maybe I felt like even that that was something I didn’t it raise a ruckus about. So he gave them at least they had a conversation where I just mean not putting a stop to it mean that it was a closeness misconstrued. I didn’t think so and I have the assertiveness now to say no that’s wrong. But the thing was I felt like no one came to me and I told this to the elders in the recent revisit of this like I was mad that none of you came to me no one whatever. I said where was my side. How come. How was I represented in his confession that shows something that I was OK like whether or not like David. How are you doing with all this. We know you’re disfellowshipped but it sounds like an awful thing that happened but I just felt like these guys and that’s the thing about where I live the kingdom how I’ve been. They literally knew my parents which had issues. So it’s like easy to just write me off as all David’s from that family tree and they’ve known me since I was a baby. And everything I’ve ever done has probably been Dragonair front of these guys the last 25 years Samael there’s I’m pretty sure with a few scenarios up then up and down. But I feel like I’m too easy for them to just write off because they’re familiar with it. And it was like you know just somebody like I don’t know I don’t even know what I wanted.

[00:38:34] I just felt I was ultimately they don’t they. They weren’t interested in pursuing it. No bungled situation after bungled situation after a bungled situation is all I have ever seen from these particular elders. And so it was for me like no and I’m thinking oh you’re telling me Jehovah has the pulse on his fingers and this kind of situation at least his way out of his control. I started to really have doubts that I thought there’s no way that he’s God or something was blocking his holy spirit from these people because this is just aren’t acceptable. There’s this God would be real like oh how appalled at what’s going to be like. Yeah but it’s a lot to take in your rally and like you said you’d go swings you have moments of nothing but heart and then you have moments of bitterness and you just say you know what like outside you I believe you. So I don’t I don’t you know I think those people are above their grade. You know they’re not yeah they’re not. It’s not within them to to to be that person. Jehovah’s Witnesses it seems like something that I’ve noticed is that honestly empathy has been stripped from them. They do not own empathy. They do not know what empathy is. They are so narcissistic and so caught up in their own things that they do not have the ability to take the perspective of anyone else. And which is I mean an easy definition of a narcissist is someone that cannot take the perspective of anyone else. And I mean I know I was like that for a long time.

[00:40:23] I had those tendencies. I was made like that. Honestly I was the product of two narcissists and raised in an environment full of narcissus and the organization strips your feelings that strips your humanity. And that’s why they can’t tolerate they can’t listen to other people’s perspectives. They have to call you an apostate. And they have to make you evil because they can’t listen to what you have to say it threatens the and’s systematically. It appears just this is just my armchair psychological professional opinion. Systematically they strip good human beings and they attract not great human beings who are Narcissus and they strip their empathy and basic humanity from them bit by bit over time. And then when they’re presented with something like what happened to you they can only think of themselves themself. The organization for Jehovah’s name in the reproach it would bring. And they cannot see you as a hurting human being that has come before them and address you as such. Yeah they don’t have the emotional tools. It has been taken from them and it’s a very sad thing that results in a lot of people being hurt. And I know that if I had continued in their religion or culture if I had continued in it as dead as I was inside I wish I could have been that old. Now listen to me now listen to my podcast. I am not that person that is not who I started in this world to be Jehovah’s Witnesses absolutely robbed me of that part of my humanity and it’s only six seven years to get it back. That’s amazing.

[00:42:38] It’s amazing to put it so eloquently like just like it’s what they do. It’s what opened my eyes which I think is why I can present it like that because it’s what I saw it was the thing that woke me up was whoa there isn’t any love here. These people are mean. They’re mean to the people they go to the door and knock on this person’s door and then say nasty hateful things about that person when they leave or want to live in that person’s house because it’s a nice house when Armageddon comes and kills them and their family they can’t even have any feeling for that person that they just talked to at the door. They just want their freaking house. How gross is that. Yeah. And the funny thing is I’ve never like to even hear that. Now I’m instantly appalled. I’ve heard that 10000 times before. You know and it did it upon me that then that is a shocking epiphany to realize that I probably once shared in such banter like ah it just that’s really I don’t know. It feels like someone you don’t know or recognize but like looking at old photos when you had maybe you know what all that hair got. Who is that young guy. Whatever it may be 50 years from now. Something totally unrecognizable. Yeah. It’s terrifying. I mean we clean houses and we clean nice homes. And I couldn’t have been standing on the doorstep of one of those people that we clean for one of these genuine nice people that we’ve gotten to know over all these years.

[00:44:28] And I could have gone up to their door with my little suit on my pretenses of love and presented them with a watchtower and awake magazine and maybe they weren’t interested and maybe they turned maybe they were having a bad day and turned me down kind of curtly or they just you know turned me down period and I could have walked away and wiped the dust off my feet. Gone my way. And you know just you know screw them they don’t want to hear this whatever it ends. Or just you know walked away and said well they’ll feel differently and when Armageddon comes won’t they. No sir. Those horrible things we used to say to ourselves. And those are nice people. And all I could have seen was oh they have a nice house and maybe when Jehovah kills them at Armageddon I can live there what an awful thing to even think. Yeah I hear they actually literally utter it at times walking away from a door. And I mean if that just doesn’t show them what they do to people. I mean to me that’s it. In a nutshell they completely strip you of your ability to see other human beings as human beings. They rob you of your ability to see your own self as a human being. And so you have no empathy for others you don’t have it for yourself either. And then you blame yourself for everything. I want to thank you for listening to David’s story today. Please subscribe so that you can get all of these stories automatically as they’re released. Each time please also show David and other support by going to my Web site.

[00:46:08] It’s shunned podcast dot com and if you go to the episodes page there you can leave a comment for any of the people who are telling their story. They can not only read but they can also respond to your comments. So just go to shunned podcasts dot com and go to the episodes page and you’ll see an individual post for each story and you can reply and comments on those stories. You can also find links to things on there that have helped each person as they were waking up and leaving the cult. If you want to hear my personal story you can listen to a podcast called this J.W. life or go to the Web site. This J.W. life. And that was my personal story. It’s a nine part series. And you can if you’re not familiar with the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses you can really learn a lot there about how they function what they teach. Alongside my personal story one final way to show support is to leave a review on iTunes. Just leaving a five star review leaving your personal comments. You know whatever it is that that impacted you this helps other people to find the podcast so that they can get the help that they might need as well. Now normally I release a new podcast at the beginning of every month. But coming up in March the beginning of the month happens to be my wife and I it’s our 18th anniversary so we will be celebrating that. And I’ve also spent a lot of time working on David’s story. So what I’m going to do is actually I’m going to skip.

[00:48:01] There will not be an episode at the beginning of March. And I know that may may be disappointing for some but I need to get some time. I’ve got a lot of people that want to be interviewed by the way. If you want to see your story go to shun podcast dot com click on the Contact page there fill out that form I’ll get it and we can work on getting your story together as well. But I need to get some interviews done so that I have more content so that I have more episodes to put out there along with the fact that you know my anniversary is coming up. We will be spending some time with that. It’s also just a busy time of year at the beginning of the year with taxes and everything else in our business. So yeah there will be no episode for March. I hate to break the news to you but there will be. We will have episodes again at the beginning of April and that will allow me some time to get some done so that I can maybe even get a little bit ahead. That would be nice. That’s kind of how I started. But other things have come up so I hate to break that news to you but we’ll see you again in April. And as I always end all these episodes love others do no harm and go be happy.

David Part 2.mp3

[00:00:01] Welcome to the shunned podcast. Today’s episode is the story of David. Now this episode and the ones that follow are going to be a little different. David had a lot to share. And so this episode is actually going to be his episode is going to be three parts. There will be two regular episodes and then I’m going to throw in a bonus episode as well. The bonus will consist of some things that we talked about really before we got to David’s story before we really started outlining everything and putting it in order. We had a conversation that I think was pretty important and that some people need to hear and I hope that it helps others. I will warn you that some of the story that we’re about to delve into is intense. It does deal with the matters of sexual abuse this is a very important topic. The Watchtower organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses has been under fire recently through some documents that showed up on a faith leak site. Through that story being picked up by Newsweek by the Daily Mail through the Australian Royal Commission through the process that were held at war with the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses in New York this is a topic that was not talked about inside of the organization as we were Jehovah’s Witnesses. This is something that for an organization that claims to be led by God was largely ignored and that it has taken outside influences to explain.

[00:01:51] For science as for psychologists for four therapists to get to the root of things like sexual abuse how it affects people how predators really are wired and and how they act. And for some reason the organization led by God supposedly claiming to be led by God did not understand this. However these things have come to light and this is a topic that needs to be discussed. It needs to be brought to light so that people can heal. And so that’s a lot of people can know that they’re not alone. So David was courageous enough to share his story so that he could help others feel less alone. And I want to. David was gracious enough to to do this so that I could share it with you. These episodes are going to be a little different. They’re not the normal way that stories are told on here. They will be more conversational. It will be a conversation between him and I and he’ll hopefully you’ll take away quite a bit from it. I hope that this information or this story that you don’t just come away with it let’s not boil it down to just being this one aspect you know aspect of sexual abuse and the conversations surrounding it. David lived a lifetime of experiences in just a short time. There is a lot to learn here David is a beautiful soul for allowing himself to be vulnerable and to express these things and then I mean you just see throughout his story that he’s a pretty awesome person a great human being. And sadly well maybe not sadly but there is a lot of the most sincere people in the organization known as Jehovah’s Witnesses that leave.

[00:03:49] There was something that I’ve noticed since getting out and that and learning the stories of people that it is a lot of the people who are the most heartfelt and sincere that end up leaving the organization known as the truth so I want to thank David for sharing his life with me so that I can share it with you. And without further ado let’s go ahead and get to David’s story. I’m not a high school. My family in 2002 moves away. The years of 2002 2003 and 2004 is like my introduction into young manhood if you will. And it’s also like it’s hard for me to put any of these pieces together because they’re all like a chessboard moving at the same time. But I just see that the whole thing a turbulent time a turbulent in terms of who am I. Where is my place in this. What am I doing. You know and then my family moved. I felt good because I was out from my mom’s watchful eye and I could be a young man. Hey I got a place of my own with some roommates and that was all very good. And some said material. Simultaneously happy happening was in 2003. That was when my dad died and I was living with the same roommates and that would have been October 30th 2003. Yeah and Lamber the elde I was getting ready for service and the elder had come by and there was during the CEO visit actually so he was there to do and they came up and told me that my dad had passed like eight thirty or something right before service. I just remember making my plans. Things are different today.

[00:05:40] I had calls with family and they were very sympathetic. But you know he was working on a car and that Jack slipped out and it killed him. And I just remember feeling like oh my dad’s gone. But there was this weirdness to it because I didn’t really know who I was supposed to be missing at that time. But I knew something of great magnitude had happened. And I remember also at the same time my girlfriend at the time was just he was on again off again uptown and it was such a crazy world for me because I was 19. And to be dating this girl I had never had a girlfriend before. I had no business dating. I didn’t know enough about who I was to actually pick a good partner. But here’s the funny thing. Like the witnesses put such stock in titles you know wear off. Her dad doesn’t like me. He doesn’t think I’m ready or mature enough say that to my Pioneer face. And then all of a sudden he has to say you know as dumb as that sounds. I was 19. He should have sat us down and said you’re an adult and you’re an adult. I can’t stop this. I don’t have to like it but there was like this I have to take a backseat because he’s spiritually ranks higher than me or something like some stupidity like that where these people had lived so much life they should have just said I don’t care. I know you’re an adult and I know you’ve got this title attached to your name. But spiritual qualifications do not make you a good partner for such as such.

[00:07:12] This isn’t you like I would probably rebell and get through it anyway but I just think that that was so crazy that I basically was able to tell people I was mature enough to be at 19 because I was a pioneer a questioner question you can’t question my immaturity of Jehovah approved me to this standing when in reality now I look back and I think you know the brothers in New York probably just got a letter recommended from my elders that says David wants to give use 60 or 70 hours of his time voluntarily I’m sure they said it’s great. Pat him on the head tell him yes he Jehovah approves. Like oh what else are they going to say. If there’s no privilege to it they’re just like he wants to give us his time yet you know placate him and think they prayed over your individual and Joe is like a holy spirit down upon your application so that you you were confirmed as a pioneer. Yeah. Makes you wonder if anyone’s ever been turned down and wants to give them that much time. Was their hideout. Many have yeah. Anyway so I’ve got that going on. And it was on again off again and I’m starting to get fed up with the whole dating this girl I’m mad. And I remember when my dad had passed away she got wind of it naturally is where it always spreads. It started sending me text about how sympathetic she was and she was so from class.

[00:08:39] And I remember at that time feeling like Please do not be using this as a springboard to get us back into each other where I can’t I’m volleyball right now because of this. And I would wish your well wishes. But like if this is something that’s going to just get us texting and talking again where I let my guard down and I get back into that mess that I just know is not what we need there. And what I need specifically that was like a turbulent time where I couldn’t tell what everything had an angle and I didn’t know of like what was going on in it. I missed you know I missed out on ever really getting to know my dad and he had thought he was anointed and I had heard like ran up to his death when we went to the funeral. It was like sitting there and they never talked about him being anointed and then you find out that like I guess they weren’t even taking his comments at the time of his death in his kingdom hall where he raised his hand they would just pass over him. I remember thinking what a nice witness you know where all his worldly brothers and sisters were there and they got to hear what you know Gary’s hope for the future was and how he viewed the world and God and spirituality and his path and his chosen life. And I felt like this the perfect thing what a good witness for all these family that I don’t really know. Their faces look the same.

[00:09:52] Their eyes look like my dad when they smile I can see that we’re family but I don’t know them like my mom and dad got divorced when I was young and they weren’t witnesses and they were his side which I live with her. So why would I. There was very little contact with them ever. But I still felt like I wanted to help them. And then now I realize if any of those people had like really known probably how my guy was you know his hope for the future and how the people viewed him up until his death it was kind of like I don’t know. I just cannot sit with me. Well that was portrayed as this thing at a funeral and like behind the scenes machinations that the hall was will move pretend like it doesn’t exist because we can’t trust his comments anymore. He’s too off the wall you know. Oh yeah. And I just felt so there’s a lot yeah I feel I just felt like between my Dad my girlfriend and everything else that was going crazy. My family had moved away. Steve A my greatest role model influence at that time. He lives about an hour and a half away. I still make pretty regular trips to visit him. And the good thing was that the girl I was dating was going to his hall so when I was visiting him. That’s how we kind of got close. The girl. But one that fell apart. Steve was still there and he’s like Ardy I’m sorry. We saw this happening but you know we thought we’d give you your jaw the length of leash to be your own man and learning who goes by. I wish you would have asked me what we could have thought about.

[00:11:18] He was an elder at her hall at the time in I just remember feeling that they had friends and store supported our this 2003 period also was the first time I went out to New York by myself. The very first time with Stevie was right after Stevie’s wedding and from the wedding the two of us went out there together and knowing without incident it ever happened. But then Steve said you know I’d like to bring it back where it’s just you know you and I and I can show you more the city and a longer thing. And when I went out there the second time everything went just normally as planned. You know we went out in service we met people we went to you know visited Bethel and all that. And then I remember this was the first incident where he had molested me. Was the night before the flight back home. We were in New York. I don’t remember the time or the days exactly but it was either July or August and it was just unbearably hot. We were sleeping on the floor of the apartment because I over the wood was cool but no sweat soaked into wood. So I was laying in my own sweat. And the fan was isolating and I had fallen asleep some time. I mean he was kind of up on the futon couch that put fold out nearby. But we were in this one room where we’re still just really really high and sometime in the middle in a war. I awoke I became awake and I was aware that his hand had slipped in like an open fly boxers like just like you’d slide it into your pocket I guess it was on my private parts.

[00:13:02] And I remember like just wanting to freak out and die but feeling like I got no answer I got nothing for this right now. Whatever is happening. Is beyond me and am I dreaming is this real. Is this like the heat nightmares or something. And I was so hot inside you like I was tingling No I really wanted to just implode like disappear. And I couldn’t I couldn’t even make sense of it. And I remember thinking has this been 10 seconds or 20 minutes. I have no idea I just kind of came to it it’s happening and it was like the most crazy thing you could think that someone I trusted in a in a year and like the big city is right outside I’m far from home. I’m here all alone. And this is the person I really like. You almost feel guilty for even thinking that this is real and happening to you. How could I say that about my friend Jane and naturalistic thing. But you feel it and you just thought go back to sleep go back to sleep go back to sleep. And I couldn’t move. And I couldn’t say no I couldn’t speak up. And I was afraid that he was going to hear like or just notice I was awake maybe my breathing was faster my heart was pounding so loud I thought for sure he could hear you can hear you know I’m up. He knows I’m awake. I’m going to be found out. If I can lay here pretend I’m asleep. You can just go on like it never happened or something.

[00:14:34] Remember that going to cut myself. No no no I understand. I remember the day like it kind of started to drift in the apartment I after I had rolled over I had kind of to my mind if I pulled it out that I mustered enough courage to just act like I had rolled over my mostly and kind of got to my stomach where it’s over it’s not happening anymore and I had just rolled over. I was out of the reach and I was everything else. But there isn’t like I didn’t go back to sleep and just lay there thinking I remember slowly becoming aware that like there was an awful leading feeling because of the heat and it was white but it wasn’t like visible I can just hear it for hours. And it started to take shape. And then other things in the rooms that take shape and then light blue light coming in then you can see everything. And I remember we went to the airport. He walked me down the terminal like he had paid for the ticket and got me out there and everything so I felt you know very I don’t know I felt very like I had to be grateful and gracious. But something had changed. And so I stand by and I walked away went to the plane. And then he called myself shortly thereafter and said what was with that. Yes we weird. You know they’re weird today and you leave and say goodbye. Give me a hug you just left me there at the one where like people without a ticket are allowed past the point and it’s called by Assad.

[00:16:07] I remember apologizing for acting weird and tried to pat Russia off as I’m like yeah I should have said goodbye like I was jilted what I should. I had every right to say Euroleague anything I would’ve wanted to do well within my rights to say or not say at that point. But I remember just giving him the easy Oh I just had a bad dream last night and I’m just going a bit off you know which. That was the point. I think that dream excuse entered my brain because that’s what I had passed off sure according to it. And I tried to convince myself for a long time that they were dreams and that it was just this maybe I was weird maybe there was something wrong with me. I don’t know if I’m gay or not. I don’t. I was aroused but I came to in that state. I don’t know how it was. Did you think I enjoyed it like this is like so messed up on a million levels and I don’t know. Nothing could have prepared me for what to do or how to feel or even that in my imagination. That would be a thing. And then are going to internalize it and it’s easier to think that if it’s you that you must do something then it is time to really give credence to the fact of how out of control that situation was and that someone else could do that to you. Yeah. And the thing is I like Kim too like you as a friend. You know what to think about someone you like. You think I must be wrong.

[00:17:40] They make me do good. There there. Personally I enjoy in every other moment of my life except for that. Well it’s a big one. You know that’s how a predator would groom someone. I remember thinking about it where nothing happened for a long long time and then my brother was getting baptized. I can remember the year but we were at a convention where we all know baptisms Jehovah’s Witnesses we bundle up together to share share beds and Jonah and his friend Ryan and also to our congregation were in one of the beds. We had a double clean young single guys called conventional splitting costs. And again Steve and I were in the same bed. And I remember like and remember this time it had been so long that I had really gotten good at convincing myself what had happened in New York was some sort of maybe dream right. You would surely have happened again since then. So at this point I was not afraid of that even being a possibility it was like a one off. And then that night the night before Jonas baptism started happening again in that bed. And I remember just again thinking freeze if I can find a convenient way to roll over at the sleep cars sluggishly just like make it stop make it stop and I’m praying to Jawaher that you know how someone pulled the fire alarm even if it’s a prank or have something an emergency.

[00:19:14] If I had any voice I would scream out in Ryan and John Boehner were in the bed next to me and we would cause a scene or maybe the most unlikely thing have a fire truck try to the building or a meteor or something. Make this stop and it’s happening again. And now that was the first moment the real dread of it confirmed the first one. Yeah and really reminded me that no this was the real thing. It’s real and it’s happening again. It was to get a conviction. And I remember at that point it was easy to move on. There was about Jonah he was getting baptized and so the attention was off of me. And I just wanted that I wanted invisibility of having the attention off of me. So all this was going on in my personal life and then I didn’t have a bad relationship. I must have all this right start. There’s worldly girls and I’m very curious and to be honest not produce sexually charged person I have a high drive and years ago the first time I looked through the baptism questions you the elders the third series they had asked me Was there anything that would prevent you from going back to getting baptized. Can you think of anything he said. Well I confessed to him that I had masturbated and had a problem with that and I remember that was terribly humiliating but also feeling like very proud that I had those words left my lips. I did the right thing and then he thanked me. He told me while that that’s something I nobody can ever know that that’s only you. That’s between you it’s a private matter and I would have had nothing to.

[00:21:05] So you’re coming forward as that shows me you’ve got a good heart and you’re honest beyond belief that you can go with free of getting caught like on your own. Confess something that personal. We’re going to do all we can to help you and we’re going to get you through this letter and I’ll talk to everybody else so we’ll see where your baptism stands this moment. I remember like a little bit later I got a call from him in my step dad took an they had turned to me and he said well he says that at this time you won’t be getting baptized David because of the issue of masturbation but he said because of your honesty you will go far in this organization and they want to help you get past it. And I always felt like that I hung on to that like all foreigners organization. The elders really like I did do the right thing. And I remember like this as a side tangent backwards. But the late are they can help me. Good. I’m going to be done with this. I’m sick of having a good period of seven days and then relapse and then you get it you know you feel like you’re making progress and it’s real accidents relapse and then it’s Oh you mean like every brother in the organization. Yes. And I would imagine to me I felt like I had the worst case in the world and there was another that not allowed to talk about it because you know everyone had aimed for it. Yes in my private life. This is going to sound awful but being completely honest like there were conventions where I was in that place for eight hours a day the convention bathroom. I didn’t care.

[00:22:41] I was very sexually charged as a young man and they can give them all that’s not off limits. They’re like we we we laugh about it. There will be a lot of witnesses if they hear this though just think oh I know right. Kind of what witness he was that bad witness who gave you that if you would even Sacko it. But my struggle was a real thing and I hated every time it was happening. Like I needed it and I wanted them to help me. And what they do they Xerox some garbage out of like a watchtower article 4B and then told me to beat the young people ass book. And I thought we I thought they were going to meet with me and we’ll pray over me or tell me about their personal experiences or something that would really help you know for days. There’s your answer. This is not a good friend. I could have printed off something like this at home. That’s their help. I remember very let down by that. And so like in my mind I thought Paul thanks everybody for all that help you like God loves a Xeroxed and stapled together five sheets of pages. Like I just felt like there was no one really cared to help me. They just wanted to say please don’t come back and tell us you still have this issue because we want about Tyce. That’s what they were hoping just put it behind you. Yeah let’s go forward. Not that I actually was struggling with something and the emotions hurt or anything.

[00:24:06] You know heaven forbid they they let you know that you’re not alone you know that those men could have on on a on a real level and let you know that it was something that they struggled with or whatever but instead they left you on an island and gave you a sterile article from Jehovah’s Witness propaganda. And the funny thing was though for who I was at that time as upset down there was I decided I was going to take it to heart and read the young people last book which to make matters worse starts off with this the Apostle Paul has an affliction in his flesh does what he doesn’t want it to do. He uses it was to do this but his flesh is weak and keeps doing that. And that was like mantra and I remember when one of the elders had asked me about that and I had said well the Apostle Paul he had a problem we don’t know what it was but his flesh was weak and he said that and the guy’s honest to god reaction was he laughed like chortle like a quick snort like I’m sure it was masturbation just not life. I mean I mean I’ve made this like I’ve taken your crummy article to heart here and that was part of it. That meant something to me was that even the Apostle Paul had a weakness in his flesh and me for having this weakness. Like I can take. I identify with something. And going like. I just felt I wasn’t taken serious and there was not the heart and tenderness that I felt should have been shown by a shepherd. Oh and for whatever that’s worth.

[00:25:38] Fast forward years later I pushed the boundaries. I was very good at not committing adultery or fornication because I did value my virginity but I was very into girls of course and that I let things happen were loose conduct and some kissing you know heavy petting that got out hand. I of course went and turned myself in to the elders about it and I remember feeling like this will be it for me. I finally get to learn my lesson and I told them everything. I hit rock bottom and they sent me out of the room Metcher judicial meeting and they asked me about it and they said everyone. I remember when they sent me out of the room. I went upstairs and the rest of the hall was dark because it was late at night. Lights were off they were using the hall meeting hall. They were just using the one room and I sat on the stairs just crying and eating everything and laid back like you know sitting on the stairs and laid back on the floor. I started looking up and in my mind I have a very like analog Anna analogy’s and visual mind and like interpreting things I remember seeing the exit sign lit up in bright red and then the speaker and the voice comes out of it in the Kingdom Hall and an air vent that moves the temperature of everything and I don’t like to air it is like Jehovah’s voice spearow the speaker is like his voice and you know all this is moving these elders right now and he’s using their voice and his Holy Spirit to guide this decision. And here’s the exit sign.

[00:27:12] I’m on my way out. They’re going to establish it. Me and I just do it in case of a. I went down and Millais summoned me back to the room and I just knew it. And then even though it wasn’t fornication or adultery. They told me it was loose contact that there was a pattern of and it wasn’t turning around or the conversion of it like I was. Instead of running from bad things the way Joseph did I was pushing the envelope getting as close as I could without crossing a line and such a pattern shows that you know I should be disfellowshipped and so I felt like I finally got what I deserve. But it was the it was the reset button I needed. It was the start over I had needed and I was I can learn. Now I can really feel like I can. I know Orlick instead of floundering in this middle ground I’ve bottomed out and I could start climbing back up rebuilding my life. It was just a crazy time because now this all Shippen everyone knew I was pretty popular in my house.

[00:28:16] A lot of the younger ones in the crowd and people don’t know there was weird things took as my best friend at one of the things that I find hard to as we had before I was disfellowshipped like he he and I had tried pot with one of the neighbor guys in a neighboring apartment complex once and I don’t like drugs or alcohol I’m very anti substance but you’re curious about these things and my buddy had told me that he had tried several things in the past like whippets and other likeT.G. experience stuff and I’m okay well if you do and I’ll go along I can learn. I remember doing it the first time I tried pot and I remember feeling this like I’m not a smoker. I don’t know how to inhale. So I did it wrong because this feeling this can’t be will all the rage is about. This is the dumbest thing ever and there is no joy there’s no joy in this. This is. This is not what everyone thinks is so funny and they all talk about it. So then later I talk and he is like whoa. Go try together make sure you in. We tried it again and it was the same thing and I was like that was when it really hit me like oh yeah this is just what it is. It sucks it’s like not it’s not for me. Drugs are not for me that’s just super relaxed thing like I don’t need the ultimate I have a good time. I felt better before all this and it’s new. There’s nothing about this that is worth pursuing or paying any extra money than being the normal non-smoker filled air I was breathing 20 minutes ago and that was when I made that decision. I remember I just fell shit also feeling like I never told him. You know I never felt like my soul ship was also paying for the state. He gets a fresh start here because now I’ve taken it and and you know that secrets goes with me and someone’s paid for my actions and it’s me and everyone gets a fresh start. Everyone gets a fresh slate.

[00:30:10] It’s crazy as that sounds. That’s how I felt like it was the absolute best thing for me that I could be disfellowshipped and just start over. Get back and like Paul everything’s forgiven everything’s back to square one. The reality of how my whole shipment went. There wasn’t much different. I eventually had a worldly girlfriend but it was never sexual again. But my virginity did still mean something to me and I remember trying to convert her all the time and talking about glitter and beatings and I also had a pretty full time job where I would show up to a lot of the meetings in my work uniform and have to go right back to it and the elders eventually you know they watch my pattern for like a year and a half and during that year and a half like I’m very into music and there’s a lot of songs that meant a lot to me and like you lose all your friends. Like I think my whole having that girlfriend at all was just you need a dope conversation someone to talk to you to go and see was more than anything because it wasn’t a sexual relationship. From what I remember just like there’s a song by Belle and Sebastian called the boy done again and that’s a brilliant listen it’s sad as heck. There’s a writer who says hang your head in shame and cry your life away and I can’t even tell you how many times. Like I would sit in my apartment singing that loudly just bawling and pounding my chest feeling like it was just anthemic.

[00:31:42] It was an anthem for me to feel like the boy didn’t run again. Hang my head in shame and cry my life away. And I just wanted it to be better. I wanted it to be better. I thought that what I was doing was going to pay for every war. But then I see them around town and they’ve all known me and they see me as well the girlfriend and I know that they assume that it’s a full relationship as if anyone else would have in the world. And I was thinking you know I see the pain in their faces and some of them have the courage to smile at me because they think encouraging me will keep me coming down the right path and some just give me that Teflon glass that slides past you and it never locks on at all. And then I feel like all this shunning and I’m hurting a lot of them are best friends and they’re hurting me they’re hurt I’m hurting them and this is the only time alive I was ever seriously they were ever pondered suicide. Was that first disfellowshipping. Because also in the apartment I lived in now Steve B lived in the apartment behind me. He had moved to Widener. He had contracted leukemia and like Minnesota has a lot of good health benefits and so he had made his home in New York. Now to Minnesota and lived in the apartment complex behind me and there was another incidence. I’ve already gone into a lot of detail on those incidents. So the third one largely the same but it happened in my apartment and raped.

[00:33:09] I was disfellowshipped but one day after he had left a note on my door or something and I went and I talked to him and I told him I brought it up. I said I’m going to bring this up so third time when this is when you are disfellowshipped This is what I am disfellowshipped. Well what happened was after you. Well there’s a weirdness to it too because the story goes it’s not the story of how it was. I was in my apartment and I left one day and I noticed these headlights behind me. Right. And so I would have no big deal. I went down to the gas station and I bought a porno mag and I was going to you know masturbate continue on my debauched ways and feel guilty and hate myself as was my partner. Sure. And that night I got a knock on the door and I had like a 13 inch TV with the VCR combo and the whole headphone jack right there. I had my headphones plugged in so I knew he being still a witness and a friend of mine and you want them to think I was just falling off the map was you wanting to hear of course that I was what I was watching and the knock on my door. I went and I answered it. He tells me. I don’t know what’s going on. It has got us like really bad headache and I’m not feeling well I think you’d be OK. Can I just sleep here. I’m not alone at all. And I hid behind my disfellowshipping watch and maybe I shouldn’t I should have had more courage. But at least I said no.

[00:34:42] I said no like I’m disfellowshipped you need to go back to your apartment. At least it came in handy for maybe the first time. Yes. You know and this was only the three incidents before that but more importantly I just thought well I went back to my bedroom remember thinking how did he know that I had any of this like he was like the next day he left and letters. I was trying to help you like typed up pomodoro like just use spurned me and turn me away when I went in with help that he was going to redeem me or save my soul from the pornography. So he must have followed me to the gas station. I started to realize Zami at that magazine I’ll buy it and then go. And now to my head that he was following me around and so like a couple nights later I decide to test it and see what limits he has or how far do you take this so I’d start driving around late at night. And then I start noticing there. Sure enough the headlights are following me and they’re legging back like they never get right behind me. They like turn after I’m about at the next block and I decide Well there’s a town like 45 minutes away. I’m in a really make him think What is he up to. Where’s he going you know so I started heading towards that town but the thrill of that chase and the fun of that game grew off about 20 minutes away.

[00:35:56] Those that are a circle back in a smaller county in between the two where he was stuck at a stoplight and as I circled back I gave him a very big recognizing wave that I knew it was his vehicle and then I started going back home. When I got home there was already a message on my phone from him long weepy and apologetic and saying it over across the bounds of our friendship and he was just worried and he was so out of line to follow me and he just worries he’s a stalker. Oh yeah. You mean that’s a thing. That’s why it’s like I’d struggle with knowing or not. When I was an isolated incident he was in love with me in some way. To have this level of its power all of was power. So you know what is the difference between the power of what he did to you when you were asleep and then of course he exercised his power over you when he was at the airport and he made you apologize and then he exercise his power. When he left a note on your door and tried to make you feel bad and then he exercised his power by stalking you and following you. Yeah that’s a terrifying person. It is not and I felt very good to the thought I had that could take voicemail was this cordless like little thing that he actually gave to me. He said Are you using this anymore. Do you like a landline phone.

[00:37:24] I said sure and my mom back and forth at the time would say hello hello like two or three guys before she’d call me and he was a computer programmer he like built computers and did hard drives and stuff and I’m not sure if this is possible or not but she says there would be times where I would hang up and she would hear a second hang up or like like the second pick up or maybe breathing that wasn’t me. As I was talking she thought she thought she could hear something Armande but I always assumed it was background noise on my end maybe and only later when she left. I thought I wonder if he had it where anytime I got a phone call. He was privy to it by pointing it up on his computer or something I had no idea. I mean heck this guy moved in to the apartment right behind you. It’s like that itself is a power move. That guy is. I’ve never even thought of it that way. He didn’t have to ask was he visibly sick. I mean not exactly he means he would think would have maybe I’m wrong I’m certainly no medical doctor but you would think he would have some sort of physical manifestations of not only the illness but the treatment. So was he. Well he was going to a guy and he knew the doctor’s name which you know I’m not I can’t confirm or deny but I believe he was sick he was seeing a specialist in Fergus Falls for like an hour away for doctor appointments and I do know that he like loved tennis and loved biking and he would go and play tennis with some of the other brothers out in the hall. And then he started to say once that was all he can do. I’m too tired to sleep all the next day he was just wiped out I guess.

[00:39:11] And so he was less and less. He was always sleeping it seemed like he started to be if not visibly like falling apart sick. He started to be less than what we knew him as so I’ve never questioned I guess his sickness. And eventually it went into full remission and the first thing he did was got out of Minnesota. When I went to Colorado and Washington and just how much he traveled I just always wondered was it some sick like love he had for me and being a witness makes no allowance for being gay. So he I don’t know. I felt like let’s let’s go ahead and establish he was sick. But what I know is that I fully consider Irma’s like you predator. Everywhere he moves where there are people going through what I had gone through unfortunately I was just like one of the houses in the tornado’s path so to speak. Why would why would he stop after you. I don’t know. I don’t know. I just felt like and I hate to say I was a special case because I know that sounds so messed up but I felt like all of this showed that he was maybe in love with me or had thought that more. I don’t know. I just feel like Zirus I don’t know. I don’t know. I have no idea I guess it’s hard for me to understand it you I as you. It’s not like you can ask him.

[00:40:28] You know that’s that’s part of the whole that’s part of the whole play you know is to leave you so leave your mind so blown that you can’t figure out what it is. God I hate him I hate him for he. And it’s hard for me to say that because I don’t want to see anyone because that in itself is I hope they have a power over me that makes me hate them. And I remember like I’m kind of close the book on him so I have to keep going back to. But I’ll come back to when I was disfellowshipped to my apartment and I was like suicidal for the first time in my life. I’m hurting my mom. My roommate sees me and I come to the meeting no one wants to look at that roommate but my neighbor apartment neighbor Steve Irwin sees me at all doing is hurting all of that and maybe I should just like just go down and lay on the railroad tracks in the middle of the night or something like hurt them all in one fell swoop. Get it over with and then they can just move on with their lives. I’ll be gone from him. Stop hurting them every time they see me you know I’ll at Wal-Mart or whatever the situation. I needed that I was hurting them with my disfellowshipping and it was like I wanted it to stop. I remember telling him this was like the last conversation we had when we were associates. I went over and talked to him and told him that I had had all these dreams and God being disfellowshipped is a mess in itself but having this guy behind me. And when he wrote that no I said he’s done with me.

[00:42:11] Who’s going to help me in the nearby cries and apologetically crossed the bounds and all that stuff. I said what I’m going to go do the olive branch day and now and I had it. We had a conversation about I don’t remember what everything else was but we were kind of doing a closure on our relationship and I thought well before that causes I have to bring up these dreams I’ve had you know. And I told him about these dreams I had had where he had been touching me. And I felt weird about them and for years I’ve thought there is something wrong with me having dreams of such a vile nature about my friends and confidants and someone I like and trust. And he told me at that time you have to have him put your mind at ease. They weren’t dreams. I really messed up and I crossed a line and were bawling and he’s telling me how sorry he is in these weeping on my shoulder and I’m holding in I’m saying it’s okay it’s okay. And this is what one of the sickest parts of my life right now is I call him the words just call in the elders tell them what you’ve done and all be forgiven and all be OK. Now I’m in mean I’d pay. I know what what he tells the elders doesn’t he’s in the situation I’m in now. It’s all gonna be better. Like you can’t hit rock bottom and not feel tremendous guilt over what you’ve done and that you’re trying to repair their relationship with Jehovah he tells me.

[00:43:27] He will if he’s so sorry he’s going to go to the elders and fix this and make it right and do do what was right in their shoes a little bit about my mental attitude to it even years they could this fellowship guy I’m thinking well if he just tells them these are the markets and over there they’re going to handle it correctly of course. And then I go to the next meeting and were sitting at the watchtower and the guy from the stage says brothers TV and I look over like war. And he raises his hand a microphone comes he gives his answer gives the mike back. And I remember like wanting to stand up and scream that guy shouldn’t be allowed to carve it like a war like I had no idea. It’s it’s weird now that I did it still does. But afterwards I grabbed the couple elders and said hey come Steve told me there was a thing that happened between you. Did he come to you. Like I see him commenting today. And did you. Did he come to you and tell you anything cause no one asked me like everybody’s guilty like no one asked me anything. First of all I just want a Furby came to you and they said I’m like very secretive elder language like terms like well we know it’s confidential but he did tell us there was a closeness that was misconstrued and and we’re handling it. And so I walked away satisfied with that answer. We’re now being awake makes me angry with myself angry with them and visibly sick that I should have said no. How about let’s go get him now and we can torture let’s just talk this out again because no one asked me.

[00:45:06] First of all how I was doing so. Now I look back and I know he didn’t tell me anything he didn’t tell them anything because they would have come to me even as a disfellowshipped person they would have wanted to confirm his confession and say this is what he told us. Is that true. And even if I was the lost sheep I felt like very hurt that my opinion didn’t matter. I was disfellowshipped. They got the faithful person to say. That’s the more important word. Even if they asked me they were never going to come to me so I kind of expected it like well because they didn’t ask me. Now I look back and see how flawed that is. They definitely should have asked me they should have come and said Lordship or not. How are you. Are you OK. Is that me at this lake DTV. We are like God like we had no idea like this was going on in your life and you know you’re usually scared. They did it. They wanted to handle the matter. That’s all that matters. And they took one side of it never confirming it with me which I now obviously know he mentioned nothing that would have equated to Paula. He maybe just confessed feelings and they celebrate with him shared a scripture and said You’re doing the best you can and then patted them on the head sent him his merry way and he’s allowed the comment at the next meeting.

[00:46:18] That’s the sickness of this lake now that I’m on the outside of it and I look at what I myself to do I like beside myself that this is the thing that happens and is allowed to happen and that I don’t know who it was because was this fellowship or just even a confession told one way if they said it’s satisfactory because you told us something so we’re going to assume that was everything you know is ludicrous to me. There’s no cross-examination or any investigation or asking anyone else. So all the details he chose to give up were the only ones that you guys have to act on. And that was the first note that I really was. Just so shipped but there’s no way it had. God has his fingers on the pulse of this organization like these elders like my mom and dad’s divorced my dad like docking the starship. They all got removed. These are some of them the same brothers are their older body and its bungled situation after a bungled situation after a bungled situation. This is a God’s organization. This is not God’s organization. However my heart was so wrapped up in it all I want to do is get reinstated. I never did I never I never could. You know the night I was feeling like I want to hurt them all at once but then get the hurt over rather than continually hurting them on called Steve a. And he was an elder in 84 correlation. His wife answered very nicely. He put humanity before. Procedure of day. Talk to you. You know I’m the linchpin that is my firmness tells Dave the error of his ways. He’ll stay. He knew that. Dave don’t do that. You’re not hurting anyone.

[00:48:04] That’s a selfish thing. However you’re feeling now it will pass. Just remember Jehovah knows you overseas and he can talk. Be off the ledge metaphorically in that sense it wasn’t an actual wedge but from my mind state of this is the worst thing I’ve ever experienced. I’m a very people person and I have no people and I’m hurting all the people I do care about. I can’t make myself better. I care. Eventually I kind of decided that if the witness is right or wrong you know they don’t get involved in wars they don’t gamble money away or you know hopefully you like the idea I had a can but they don’t get their fries and drink you know although we know that that’s not true either. Like the beer that your child abusers. So they’re good people to be around. How I thought so whatever I felt about this local elder body and maybe this is just something beyond them. This is the situation I do elsewhere. I want to be surrounded by these whether or not they have the right answers to eternal salvation. They’re good people and I should go back so I went back I got reinstated. Can I ask you before we get to your reinstatement. Can I ask you a couple questions please keep me on track as much as possible. It’s so hard. These are just a couple of things that I just wondered about. This is actually going to backtrack a little bit but. So you’re disfellowshipped and the elders like you went to them about the abuse.

[00:49:40] You had mentioned that I think you were out for at least a year and a half. Yes. During that time that year and a half to the elders ever did they meet with you. Did they try to encourage you. Did they do. Did you have interactions with the elders as part of your spiritual rehabilitation. No I had no I had to act first like they would. One of them would smile and nod at me because he knew it was good to encourage me and keep me coming you’ll give me that you know pat on the head. And so I remember that they would talk to me like at the back of the hall if I had a question or needed a book or when I had brought my girlfriend to a couple meetings they were like oh how are you. Great great. And they just lowballed Obama of course. To show that whatever David’s situation is we don’t want that to elevate you from attaining everlasting life. So there are those moments like that but I remember she fell. She went online read some things right away. And I wanted nothing to do with it. Like I thought no no no no you who are you trust me who live went through it I’m going through it right now or stuff you heard online. You have no idea about. And I can tell you what those sites say bitter apostates are just going to have their Gitter. Of course they’re meant to organization. They left the organization and their feelings are not their stories not mine. And I felt like I did what I could do with it.

[00:51:11] And so what the mind will do though. I mean those are just bitter apostates. But here I am a person who has been abused has been ignored I’m being shunned and no one of these supposed spiritual shepherds who the elders are supposed to be caring. And yet you have to initiate all of the conversation with them. In other words like because you’re not the first person to ask this question. And what I’m finding is that once you’re disfellowshipped the elders watch you but they don’t try to help you at all do they. They don’t know when I say hey like how are you doing. We care. We want to see you back and we want to help you they just leave you to your own vices don’t they. They leave you alone. They largely do. And the funny thing about it is like if I didn’t initiate like saying to them oh I’ll think about writing my letter what do I need to do. Oh I’m so glad you asked here in order to do Jumo as well Brooke. There’s the process that you go through to do that David. And how you to do this. That’s what a of us. You know it’s just like I wrote my letter. So then they talked to me a little bit more and the longer the back of the hall that I couldn’t they wrote this letter just reinvigorated by this. This is the one this is the letter that gets me back you know I was like that. And then what happened was I wrote him that letter.

[00:52:48] And at this time I was still working at top honors for a lot of it. And on Sunday that was my day to do the open to cause Sunday it is open until noon. But to get food ready and hot before noon I had to get to work at like 10 get all the hot table going you know neat beans. She saw us all that Taco Johns he stuff. And then I would puzzle after the Kingdom Hall like had to get that on before 10:00 o’clock. So the heating up couldn’t stay and hot and then it just heats up slowly where it’s ready to serve by you know at noon when I have that tend to new and it was leave temperature and lock it up go to the Kingdom Hall in my truck which aren’t uniform often unshaved and then right afterwards but back out and then it works 12 to. That was my open door closed. They you know it’s like a 14 hour day anyway. And in my letter they had said well we’d like you to come more with the appropriate attire. And sometimes you’re not sure if it’s a whole of it. And they even told me this is a test. We think you’re doing good and you’ve been here at all of that. So they recognize the effort that it must be taking from me to even get access to up in my work clothes like Guy your Boston to be here. And we appreciate that. However we want to see how bad you want it. That was basically the message. And they said keep coming a little bit more and try to write a letter get it like three months more.

[00:54:13] After working on a few things we told you to work out. So I went back and worked on most things and I wore a suit and I tried to shave as often as I could. Eventually we got reinstated. Much to my delight at that time. Wow. Well I appreciate you answering. And then I also just wanted to point out because it’s something you said I think you also alluded to the fact that you you may see it differently now and that even Steven A helps you to see it differently. But it needs it needs to be said that you weren’t hurting those people. So you’re disfellowshipped you weren’t hurting those people who were seeing you. You weren’t hurting anyone they were being hurt because they were buying into something that was hurting them. Well it wasn’t about you. It was all about them and their misplaced ideologies. And I know that now. But man like when your friends from childhood and you just see pain in their faces. It kills you. Yeah. And you take it all upon yourself because that’s what we were taught to do. It was all about us. Everything was our responsibility. And you were just horrible and that we’re hurting these people none of whom were actually trying to help you. Please you guys even like I felt very like like I was even covering over the scene. My friend was like I don’t to read about him. I’m taking. That’s my right now because I’m sure it has worked. So the fact that I was a sheriff is works but I’m paying for them. They’re being Matosi.

[00:55:57] I mean look at what you were taking on. You were taking on the things that you just mention the sins by you know being there with them. You were also taking on this shining thing and all the weight of the feelings of every person that saw you you were taking on complete solitude. You were taking on trying to make a living and still make these meetings and do all that and in all of this and you were taking on you’d already taken on this abuse by Stevie. So you’re just a dumping ground for everybody else’s stuff. Here you are disfellowshipped. You have these people that are supposed to be shepherds in the congregation the elders. And shame on those assholes for not ever reaching out to people who are hurt. I mean there is no organization that shoots their wounded like Jehovah’s Witnesses. They completely take people that are already broken and that are hurting and then they dump everything on them tell them that it’s all their fault. Blame the victim and then do absolutely nothing to help that person to get spiritually well as they see it like they don’t even though I guess honestly by leaving you alone that’s technically the healthiest thing if you were to just get out and be free of those Nazis. So it could actually work to your favor. But they’ve got you so programmed and you’re so devastated and you you’re so living in shame that you’re such a horrible person and these loving spiritual brothers can’t even lift a finger to reach out and say hey man like. All right. So here you are. Now you’re on the outside.

[00:57:58] Let’s help rehabilitate you. Let’s help see what we can do to help you overcome your problems to make you a better person. You know it’s like going to a doctor who looks at you and goes you know you got stage 4 cancer. Good luck to you. You know like that never tries to help you that never brings the medicine or the cure. They just leave you to sit in it and feel terrible. And then of course you know a person like you. And often it’s the people who are the most sincere and the most beautiful people are the people who are hurt the most because they truly do care and they take it all on and they feel horrible. And then there’s no one there to help them. You were sincere. You were trying to do all the right things. And they used every bit of your sincerity against you. And if that doesn’t show that Jehovah’s Witnesses are not the true religion they are not the truth. They are not. What did they say that Jesus said. By their love you will know them. They claim love as their identifying mark of true Christianity. I’m 35. Fuck them they have no love. They would not know love. All they know is narcissism they know control and control is the exact opposite of love. Control is not about the other person. Control is about what you want and imposing it on that other person. And it’s completely abusive and that is who Jehovah’s Witnesses are. So that’s my little soapbox. It’s one of the things that woke me up.

[00:59:40] That was one of the biggest things is when I looked around and I realized there is no love in this organization. It is all about them. They take and they take and they take and they never give you anything in return. And so there is no true love there. That’s the crazy thing is like recently. Like I like a lot of partners and like well writing things I play with words quite a bit. Yeah. Giraffe’s lately like since our first session recording I’ve taken to calling it Jehovah’s narcissist’s and I sing the old melody of a song and it makes me smile. But the thing is I realize now like to mix the people you know who are believers with what the organization is. It’s like how you said all of that and said there’s no love there’s no this new organization. If you stripped that they’ve given me a lot of reading material over the years that would be the extent of my friends who are believers. They have shown love in a lot of conditional and you can feel that real love exists with the people I knew inside the congregation. However when you look at the policies in place just for how the organization is run. That’s like saying I want to talk which arms my employees and my current like co-workers I should say actually cared about me. Do you think Taco John’s international knew anything of how many tacos I sold or what I was doing. No it’s the same way. It’s like they just well at least you are hogging the machine.

[01:01:22] Yeah yeah and at least good Taco Johns gave you money that you could use to do whatever you wanted with the Watchtower. Yeah they gave you reading material but what was that reading material. It was narcissistic propaganda. That’s all it was. Yeah. So even if read the material they gave you all about them. It’s crazy too because like all the reading material like years and years of it is little more than a recital of the same things they had me read at 8 years old. Of Cornell up to 225. Hey we’re going to recite this again. Oh yeah you’re still a terrible sinner you’re still a horrible person and they have to let you know that at every turn. What you’re saying. Nature is because that way you need them. If they can keep you down long enough you need them. And what is you know I love the actual story of Narcissus and you know where narcissism comes from you know and how this narcissist is so enamored with him. Enough him or her will say him nurses make it was him was so in love with his own reflection in the water he could do nothing but stare into it and so what did he do. That seems like fall in and drown or something and I think somehow he dies this horrible death because he can’t break away from admiring his own beauty and that is of his witnesses you know if you look even when Jehovah’s Witnesses talk amongst themselves sure oh brother isn’t this such a wonderful organization. How great are we. Like they could not pat themselves on the back more and do less.

[01:03:00] I was always bugged by the watchtowers because like I mentioned earlier where I liked the new light I liked the media stuff I liked something that my brain had to get creative in reasoning and have an agile mind to learn to grasp this new light rather than a whole hum recitals that we have heard over and like one of the things that made me the maddest was when they would waste a whole Watchtower article that was like this week we’ll be discussing or all the good we’ve done in this country and it was like literally paragraphs in a paragraph about patting themselves on the back for how they spread this work here and so and so yeah his calmness for an A B and C question that only three questions like this guy’s story. We understood it was a feel good story put it like the back page up in a way. Don’t waste my Watchtower stuff that I have to study with just feel good things you want to pat yourself on the back for me for that they can’t do that because part of any good colt is infantilizing people and dumbing things down and being so mind numbing that you literally are trained to turn your brain off. That is what they do. It is a way of manipulating people to do dumb things down so much to be so boring that people literally turn their brains off. That’s why you remember there was quote new lie and there was some new thing. It was like oh my god I finally feel awake and alive.

[01:04:30] There’s something to emulate me instead of being so bored that you’re just mindless automatons little robots that follow this cult and do what ever they say because god forbid you turn your brain on. They don’t. So that’s why it was so boring that that is all by design. That is all by design. It keeps you in a state of NARM so that you can’t feel and you can’t look around you and really ever find your way out. You’re just in the fog and can’t see anything else. Yeah well I’ve derailed that. No but I wanted to get back to your. You know I wanted to ask those questions and really herbes me that elders don’t do anything. I mean I guess I’m I’m glad in one way that they’re not really helping anyone so that maybe people will leave but it’s also sad because unfortunately some people do leave and they leave. Because they do commit suicide. And that’s that’s so sad. And that is one of those things where they say they disfellowshipped you because you weren’t repentant you weren’t sorry for what you did but then you see people literally kill themselves over it. Now how could they know. How could they say that you’re not sorry over it. When you then turn around and kill yourself. You know that is the ultimate I’m sorry. And I’ll say it again though like I like honestly like the last bit I’ll say I’m my disfellowshipping is that I was taking a personality test and I’m into that sort of part about the brain nature versus nurture and I was ENFP which is the champion and very hyper champion of causes that type a champion like Victor.

[01:06:32] But the champion stuff they get all and they go all year on something and they can get brazenly people to follow them on to their their cause. You can start and I love I could I start. I love the I love the passion. It was infectious people around me would get caught up in it and I was in the ENFP is extrovert and I took the test before my disfellowshipping. That part that determines you have all the questions it’s like. So it’s the only one that has a 20. It’s like a 20 questionnaire. And remember it was like 19 to 1 Etah Ayfer introvert. After my disfellowshipping and reinstatement I got into reading a lot more. And all of a sudden I don’t know if it’s just because age balances you out or the experience I went through said get used to being alone. And I was much more like eleven to maybe eight. And in that you know twelve eleven maybe eight or nine. You know I was much more I wasn’t an introvert because I get my charge off people but now I had a lot of introvert tendencies. I was okay being alone. I liked a book is a good time to be alone. I can be content by myself now. Disfellowshipping taught me that before I needed to be around people I needed to be around people I needed to be around people. And when I wasn’t. That is the singular only time in my life I have ever been even close to what I would call suicidal and I wasn’t like I don’t want to say I was I was depressed. And that was the thing.

[01:08:08] You know you’re curious about it that call to the void and it just I was mulling it more than it ever did. But it wasn’t like suicide or the sense of you know I want to try it but I was if it had made sense in my mind for the first time only during that period in my life of being disfellowshipped that first time now I understand. It’s scary that something like that can literally impact your personality so much. Yeah a push to the brink. Totally against my nature. That’s not who I am or what I would think. But I was driven there and it was a real place my mind had filed. And I just can’t believe that I look back now and a marvel that you know like they push you that far Jehovah’s loving organization pushed you that far. I don’t mean to laugh but yeah the absurdity of it can cause is exactly what gallows humor. Yeah it’s wow. It’s just it’s so sad. So so then. All right. So now back to your reinstatement so you get reinstated then. How did your life transform from there. The next part was rather quickly and I will try to do it as quickly as possible. I get reinstated and there’s a few friends you know people moved away. People my age got their own lives and spread apart as everyone does of any age when you reach that. But some had been disfellowshipped and left the organization some had stayed behind and the young kids that were my immediate young crew they were gone and like you know off doing stuff.

[01:09:48] But now there’s a slightly younger generation just coming up and I and brilliance that way I can be there stede a I can be a good example the fun young guy who takes an interest in younger ones. You know I’ll do that. So I started hanging out with people you know a good number of years younger than me and some of their previous friends were still there. One of whom was a girl who became my wife eventually. And I remember the night I got reinstated they said hey you know Dave let’s got a dry ice too. They were like best is Miranda and Jessica and I thought I couldn’t believe it. Like this quick they hang out actually spend time with me not just you know pat me on the back. What we’re glad to have you back look at the back of the kingdom holler. This is going to bubble out outside the walls of the hall. I get to hang out with my old friends again in the real world again. And we just got in a car ride talking music and caught up in what’s changed. You know we’ve missed a day of Garber’s will have your back and all that stuff. And that was when I realized like some of them weren’t there. But some of them were and that I had in my heart made up the decision I have to go back to my own self. None of the friends will ever be there still. If they hadn’t moved on or just want nothing to do with me that’s not why I’m coming back for them.

[01:11:10] But when they actually did I was shocked and surprised because I was convinced that everyone else had just written me off. I’d be this kind of anonymous member of the congregation who kind of comes and goes and I can say hi now at least. But the fact that it was it was by a certain circle of friends very open eyes. Glad to have you back. And the one girl she was a little on the young side when I had left or gotten disfellowshipped the first time she was being a couple years younger than me but she had confessed you know feelings for me before and you know I said I like to wait for you I don’t know and she’s that why I just hated that whole. We had to watch on the sidelines. You go to that first relationship just up and down and on again off again and I just felt so bad for you and in all your in all of your experiences she felt for me and you know had a big crush on me and I was attracted to her and I and in a state of mind that I was coming back. I didn’t think anyone would want to be around me. And here was someone who I had had before and am willing to have again. And now she’s actually old enough where she wants to hang around here tell her parents. I’d like to date him. She can do that as a responsible adult. So things progressed rather quickly and we were married within. I was reinstated the first time November 30th and our anniversary the following year was November 17th. So within under a year of being back I had gone through the dating engagement and marriage process recently disfellowshipped.

[01:12:42] People didn’t like that. And you know how sure are you about this. He’s only been back a little bit of time or after. So I got married relatively quickly. Looking at it now. It was it was what I wanted at the time what I wanted at the time though was it was part of the love bomb to about getting back you know rolling on back. Now all this love hits you everyone even the people I thought who would write me after I welcome back. But you know I’ll never be the same. When I saw that that was a worry of mine dissolved between certain ones I said oh great but then at the same time Miranda and the other one who was Jessica’s best friend at the time started to decide that she was just going to leave just walking away going inactive and we had tried like multiple times to reach out to her and save her and she was leaving to go with this man. We were like heartbroken that we were lost. Losing a friend of this sort. And there was like other friends of our circle had already left me and they picked up. So it’s really dwindling down the pool of ours. Our group people and now we lose this last one was kind of the glue that kept it together. But I think she even felt like I was a little bit that way. Well Newell you guys are probably going to start dating so I can kind of see that now so I can do what I want finally because you’ll have Dave you know. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:14:08] So she’s letting go and kind of passing the baton off of who’s going to be good friends and also sort of through that that really expurgated what our our friendship becoming an actual courtship because now we’re like the only you know three or so left from that original core. And one of them is leaving. So it really brought the two of us together and it was natural that we formed a closeness over the last at this friend and now we felt like it was just us. I went to there was a couple younger than us that we still hang out with but other than like it was like they were just going to come together in a few short years change such drought so drastically that we got really cross over all that you know we had that in common that we lost all the same friends and now I was back so things would steady out and she was a young girl and I was a young boy and we started dating and got married and they I felt like I had something to prove to everybody to cause like I want to let the record show when I was associate. Yes I had that role but it wasn’t a sexual relationship. Like don’t think I went out and lived as the barge life and now she’s giving herself to someone who’s not worth anything because it’s really too in myself. I had felt like everyone’s going to view me that way and I’m not going to be worth anything to myself if I’m not worth anything to their eyes. And so you feel this who is going to want me.

[01:15:28] I’ve been disfellowshipped and I know what I’ve done. They don’t know what I’ve done. I’m so soiled and I’ve lived in the world that if they knew that I had tried pot twice and you know they’re just going to like and I hated it. You know you feel those things and I have a word too often and they probably assume the worst. No one’s going to want me any more ever again. They will always I will always have an asterix of welcome him because he’s your brother again. Don’t ever trust him because he’s a person who did stuff that he’s untrustable right. And so the fact that I had friends left is someone well used to you you like me you would want to date me. It was like this I’m acting I’m going act now and it’s just us two left and we seem to do the last two Sindane people in the congregation of the similar age let’s get together and it was looking back now as it was I’m out of that relationship of course but there was such a bad choice for so many reasons. I should have taken a lot of time to not just be so glad that I had some friends who still did. Were willing to like me and be you know friends me first I should like when you’re expecting no one to ever take you again no one to look at you and view you as an honest person because you’ve been through that. Yeah. You take what you can get.

[01:16:45] You take what you kind of take what you can get and undo the pool of people who are dwindling but you know like when you look at like what someone is in a marriage partner like what your qualifications are. She was a young man who thought she had a lot more she’s different now and don’t want to make this why her and I were about a couple but just the one thing you know about the truth. I will say is that it shows the organization the cast I’m saying is they don’t. JT and Lady C say it a lot like they don’t teach you anything about how to evaluate a person. They ask you if you’re interested in dating someone another. How many hours in service do they do. OK so they move a lot of product. How spiritual someone is or how many hours in service or if it is in ministry. Is your pioneer you know or if not then you shouldn’t even consider such a print. It’s like you. Oh they don’t teach you how to talk about was his temper like or he can be obedient and show up at meetings on time and go out in service he can be places on time is not a qualification. Is this person really good marriage. Sure he does. The only thing you look for your spiritual I’m spiritual. You grew up in this. Ha I grew up in this how your family knows my family. We know as we know for two people. Each Other is probably well as anyone can know each other when you’ve got all this intertwined history and common friends and the history of losing those common friends you’re bonded and you feel it was like that makes sense.

[01:18:14] And then you’re attracted to one another and you’re young and you feel like all I need is to this will be the thing that Couture’s me. This will be what fixes me and makes me completely happy once I have this marriage in me. And she’s willing to forgive that I had all that disfellowshipped life. You know I’m just over the moon that anyone would still want me around and it’s not that you guys are compatible. No not at all. Believe me. I mean honestly after we left the conversation my wife and I had to have you know which is you know why are we in this relationship for real. Because you know we got married because you know we get married obviously we did care about each other genuinely but when you’re in the Colts the the reasons are the qualifications I guess that you are given to look for in a marriage may are not at all. What makes a good marriage. And you know what. The divorce rate is in Jehovah’s Witnesses but it has to be higher than even the national average because I have seen we’ve seen so many people like almost all the young people that we had grown up with. They got married. We get divorced. And oh yeah they were they were just getting married to have sex of course they were. That’s the only way you could have sex and they were normal young people with feelings. And I just remember you know even after we left we had to reexamine you know why are we in this relationship is this. Is this really what we want.

[01:19:52] Because I mean we broke down everything else in our lives so I mean we had a look at that too and you know this truly was what we want is what we want. But we had to consciously make that choice again because we realized that so much of what every aspect of our life was based on was if it wasn’t a lie it was just not a good and healthy foundation for whatever. And so we had a look at our own relationship and really examine that and have you know tough discussions because really I mean I guess every marriage probably goes through that anyway because you’re different at 20 or 30 than you are at 60. Like everybody changes like exact when it’s best. That’s that’s one of those things no one talks about anyway. It’s just the expectations of the different seasons of life and how people change throughout those. But you know that’s part of having a mature relationship a mature marriage. But you know we had to re-evaluate. And you know good for us. You know luckily for us you know we are where we wanted to be but I totally understand that a lot of people are not and it’s because the foundation that Jehovah’s witnesses give their members for a relationship. Yes so dysfunctional and it doesn’t. People really are so I mean no wonder you know I feel for you because you had that at the and for her really because it’s not fair to you. Oh my god yes. Because it was also it was set up on such a shaky foundation that was neither of yours fault wasn’t the fault of either of you that you were born into this Colts. Yes.

[01:21:38] That has such dysfunctional ways of being glad you said that too. Because like for me like I just feel as much as I’d love to say oh it’s all her. She had changed that wasn’t what I wanted at the time she was what I wanted. But what I eventually wanted change what she wants changed and everything changed. And the reality of it was it was changing further and further apart. Yeah. And when I got reinstated I do not many brothers left in the hall. And so I quickly like they give me privileges rather I was good readers. You can start reading at the Watchtower. You can start me or you can pray at the meetings over everything. And they kind of even well her dad was also the presiding overseer and he was here. There’s a long history there of course with any elder Neckar issuers don’t need was. But they are they basically told me Well you know you can’t be a ministerial servant until you know five years. I remember hearing that I thought well what did you mean five years like I’ve been raised. I can read I can do this. And I guess there’s an that’s the elders direction is there some arbitrary number that says five years until he could be in good standing because someone is really from the Bible is a five year you know five years you know there’s a five year waiting period mentioned in the Bible. I thought it was like seven and I could be released on the Jubilee Year or some other major bull. Yeah.

[01:23:15] They had to give me an earring and I could get rid of it when I wasn’t a slave after this. I don’t know. No seriously I shouldn’t make jokes because you and I it’s funny. But to someone listening has no idea like they make up a lie and there’s arbitrary rule isn’t a culture of it where I remember feeling like I’m more spiritual now and have a bit of my life like this is the idea I’m ready. This is the scene you’re looking at a ministerial circle wants to serve the congregation and that fact that they may be wait I felt like her you know because I know I knew I was never at the time I got reinstated. I was I literally pictured like the world Armageddon had to be around the corner and we were in like George Bush years. And I thought like oh man things are going to happen things are going to happen. Like yeah. Bush and Clinton and Bush again before that and then you know like it is just too much happening in to have your country be in the hands of two singular families for almost 26 years. This is this is at the boiling point right. And you think I got on the train and the doors closed and it cut my coat tails like I was the last person to see it. You know that was my mentality when I got reinstated was that I just got it. Thank goodness I got my act together in time just to beat those doors. You know.

[01:24:34] But I knew like in my mind I was that convinced the end was on its way and I was like I was a spiritual as I’ve ever been in my life. So there’s anyway. Fast forwarding through the marriage problems as most young people have stated that she is a kind of become different. And I remember having doubts and still I had told myself through my whole life this masturbation issue will cure itself once I’m married because then you’ll have a marriage me and you won’t need it right. Yeah. People you know. But anyway. So yes that’s why I’m hanging my hat on this marriage thing going that way. You you just blew me you nothing nothing I can’t handle. But we get into the marriage and it’s not what I had a lot of levels. And then we have conversations. And then the conversations come blow ups where then you want to avoid blow ups. So you start bringing topics up and your communication becomes signals. Body language is slamming doors and sending messages through non actual communication. And you feel like how did we get here. This is lame and this is not what I wanted. This is not how I wanted to spend my years as a married man. Well if I had a kid that would be that you know we’re going to keep. I always wanted kids you know and we have a baby. And that was about three years in the marriage. But I remember holding that innocent little child and that was another moment that kind of dawned on me from my awakening as there’s things I can’t say now. My then wife I just know you can never tell her you have a doubt here or there about this organization.

[01:26:14] She more habit she is third generation born in Die Hard. And we blast all these friends and she just seemed flummoxed that anyone would ever leave of their own. Don’t tell her any of these doubts whether it’s leaving the organization or meeting her or what the marriage is. But I remember looking at that little baby’s face and thinking this is a gift from God that will keep me engaged in this. I want to raise him right. Amina really a modern day keep me engaged in that kind of occasion and do the right thing for my kid. This may sound delicious it’s not exactly what I wanted but that’s OK because now I’ve got this precious thing to care for. And he will be the glue that keeps us together and I can draw myself into being a parent more than worrying about what the husband or wife connection itself is. And they’re also like when you have a kid something changes and you completely wear I remember holding that kid can’t remember it the delivery is happening. You’re scared. She needs a blood transfusion during this thing. Or what if the baby comes out. He’s not healthy. And I was like instantly I kind of knew I couldn’t voice certain doubts but in my mind I has I had learned about a scary amount of love in myself. I think I’ve got too much to love to ever say no.

[01:27:32] If this kid’s playing in the street and eventually needs like a blood transfusion because he get to buy a car I would have to say what everyone else in the hospital room being her dad was the presiding overseer and she would be saying this and then I know I would go order like the doctor in the hallway. So yeah I had to see that back there. I’ll tell you now save the life whatever you do and later that all Biyani they can get mad at me. I’ll be the one who violated God’s law but mind you it will at least be able to survive and his want to be his sent you know that would be mine and they can all be mad at me but I want him to live. And I’m kind of like you had that ability in you where you realize now like just a kid makes you different. You think like there’s nothing you wouldn’t do for him good or bad. And you know you realize that I think in my mind I’m still a die hard witness too. I have doubts but I also know that this kid has changed things. When they round us up for the concentration camps that they had told us was going to happen or had fearmonger into us. I thought I’m gonna go down in a hail of gunfire because I’m not going to be able to watch them put a gun to his head. I’m going to jump or try to grab someone near me or fight back like I’m going to watch my kid do that. I know if they separate us and please take me instead. Does doesn’t work. It’s definitely my option and I felt like that because I thought I can’t do this.

[01:28:54] I’ve got a kid and I knew this concentration camp thing I was just praying it would not happen in theU.S. because I knew I was too weak. I couldn’t do it. And so I started to realize his weaknesses and Hacketts voiced them. I can’t say this to my then wife like I don’t have the strength to look like I might renounce my faith if they give me a paper that says himin I think or live like you she would have left me right then and there. Just for saying something against the organization like that. But when you have a kid you start realizing your limits and say I can’t sign off. I would sign off on a blood transfusion. I would do anything I would sign renounce my faith. There’s nothing you can hold over me that would say choose this ideology over this physical being of help. Now that doesn’t go away. That was like part of my own cracks in the foundation realizing that they just it became. When you start having all of those things you can’t speak to your mate about a lot of things especially something as big as your religion you’re going you’re you’re you’re you’re doing nothing but furthering on like first of all it’s unfair to make myself think that this kid was going to keep my marriage together like that somehow his job to fix things between us. Yeah that rarely works. But you think you think of all this stuff and you just start realizing through your own thoughts now that you’re faced with your own. Like who am I as a parent. Who am I as a Jehovah’s Witness. Who am I as something bigger than yourself you have to think outside of. Yeah. And that was like Really.

[01:30:28] I mean I guess cracks in the foundation are starting to appear in my relationship with her. And I’ve just got stuff that I know I have to bite my tongue to pass. Like most people get pushed out the back of their mind and convince themselves that OK well don’t worry about that now don’t worry about that. Now when if he wants to go for football that’s not an implied that you can’t play football like god like how she’s going to say no and I’m gonna say maybe that would have a shot like show me the Bible. Like when he asked me Dad why can’t we in the Bible do it. I don’t have that good answer because I don’t think it exists. Like birthdays or something you could say was pagan. Maybe I could convince him. But this like you know he just wants to play sports. That’s it. You know why can’t I have you know this haircut or that third jeans or shirt with this logo on it. I’m thinking you no I don’t have good answers for a lot of the stuff. Maybe I wasn’t cut out to be a parent. But right now little kids little issues will just get through this. We’re what big star wars gets the vigil. Now you just want cut out to be a Jehovah’s Witness. That’s of was you’re actually being a good parent. And so there’s a lot of that going on. And then we had a second kid and a lot of the same stuff I just had to realize I was a very active dad like at assemblies.

[01:31:46] I really love the fact that I didn’t have to sit in there for the sessions and she not be a communicator very well but being good at getting a message to you whether it’s through silent treatment or just like huffing and they can’t off this kid. So it’s very good when you can do that and then like whether it’s grandparents or even random people at the convention sitting next to you like Ticknor or you want me to tip them. Should I take your kid for you and say I just hated asking for help. I was out day. How do you if she’s there even if it’s a language people speak and they learn as a survivor’s guilt if I just make a fuss about this I don’t have to handle it anymore. Someone will come in and save it. And that’s the dad I was was I was a very let’s do it let’s do it and I got to be walking down the halls every session like walking down the halls and seeing all the other dads and parents that use their salaries when you’re like hey we’re in the parents club we’re all out here you know in especially in cyber. We got child rearing and we’re trying to make it so those inside are distracted by our loud kids. That mothers could actually take notes because they don’t have arms full of babies and so I’m facilitating a good thing. Plus I get to walk in the halls I’m not enjoying the sunshine so much. Me and my kid are having a fun time. Let’s go upstairs and check in at that level you know.

[01:33:00] Let’s ride the elevator and you start to feel like you just don’t know. We became really fun for me to be that dad with the kid and we were one of the places we had assemblies was also a local a state baseball Hall of Fame. And so we grew up look at Buffalo baseballs and read names and what towns they were from. And I’m jealous we never had anything like that. And you just you know you’d grow it you’d get your arm. You get people who don’t talk to you and they’ve got their kid and they’re waiting out in the hallways at assemblies intervention because they got that year piece aired and they’re just not at you. But that’s like the not as a hello and a dismissal. And they know don’t linger around and talk you know. But then you get the ones who love you’re out here with your kid to you just go and you go and talk until you start to hear music and you’re like oh yeah I get into the song as it’s going to be lunch. But it’s so funny because when you had two kids. Now what if we could always take shifts before things really changed our relationship. Well we had two kids because it’s one of us is always going to have one or even worse both. You know we’re outnumbered now it’s even teens at least. And that’s got to be a strain on our relationship because I still was like in the doing a lot of that like I had a handle thing and I had to handle everything. She was a note taker and I wasn’t. So let me take notes. Would you take.

[01:34:25] I mean I got to go out in the hallways and do that stuff as well. But I also got very into bicycling and like cycling riding around miles and miles on my bike at this time in like 2009 or whatever and then bringing up children and so all the good races in bicycling are on Saturday or Sunday. So when you get to go out for like out of the sessions are take the kids with time or room time or room you can just check up dates on your phone. Who’s winning what race weekend after weekend there’s a good race going on. So it really I was kind of weak spiritually not giving it. I was thinking I was rather spend time with my kids in a time out room just doing my own thing and listening to all that stuff and is what helped her out. But after enough of that it just became expected. So I was always doing it and feeling like well no. It’s exhausting being a parent especially when you start to realize some of the beliefs a whole do. Some of them I don’t this part of this organization raise me but I stomach it because I’ve got all these other things and it was just a really confusing time in my life. Think young children. You know that’s interesting because I’ve heard people who I recently talked to somebody who was interested in this girl so he started it he wanted her. She was worldly and he was a witness and he wanted to have this relationship with her.

[01:35:58] So he started examining the teachings of Jehovah’s witnesses because of course you know he was trying to push her to become one and he wanted to make sure he did everything right as he was going to teach her. And it was the examination of his own beliefs that led him out. And then you know here you are you have kids and it’s the same thing now you’re like OK now I’m going to teach my kids this stuff. Now I have to think about this and now I have to examine these beliefs. Does this really add up. Being a witness was far. I was the only one that had to deal with my decision. And there a lot better for your kids and you start to look at everything you think God this is just like why not football why not even like the knowledgeable team you know like I just thought like because it’s a team and it’s a school like to me like I just mean like there’s too much here I kind of want better for my kids. But I a mate that won’t ever go along with that. Yeah. And I can’t even voice these things but they’re starting they’re just festering in me. And I did like you do with any doubts though and put them in the back of your mind and you just figured that’s just my struggle. And know I don’t worry about it now anyway. So it’s fine with us. You know like you assume the fire alarm is going to work because you’ve had a battery in it forever and you haven’t used it excessive. That’s not always the case. So then how did it progressed from there. Well child is awesome.

[01:37:29] So many things are awesome I have doubts. But like any good Christian I put them aside. What happens though that really turns my life around. It was I met a woman at a coffee shop in my local town and we were talking and I got to know a little bit about her story and I just felt like I didn’t know I was drawn to her. I was drawn to her out of the laugh and making her laugh was probably the it just bubbled out of her and it was the best reward you ever got for any joke you’ve ever said that someone laughed at this one. Hate it. Better than any payment of laughs. It was just it was the exact me. This is why I called Chalk’s keep telling here again here again here again. We became good friends and we started we realized we took our kids to the same day care. I creepily looked up like her last name from her kid’s name on the daycare roster and I found oh this is her and then I found her online and we started messaging like on Instagram and just I just she just was the lonely gal who had these kids was doing the best she could as a single mom. And I felt for that situation growing up with my mom as a single mom. And I was just like she just needs a friend and her husband cheated on her and had like is really messed up life right. It’s I want to show her that there’s good men out there. I know because I am one and that is not all that way and you’re in your 30s.

[01:38:57] But there’s a good life for you and you just needed a friend and someone to talk to. And I thought I could be that some juggling all this just being her friend and I like talking to her. She seemed to get me and she even asked me at one point like whoa what how you feel about flirting I know you’re in a relationship and everything and that’s why we proudly showed it to you. You’ve been down this road with your husband. Would you have been okay with that. Oh you’re right. And so we had like very mature conversations over and over. But yes we. There might be attraction to one another but we can’t go down that road it’s a road filled with regret and that’s not my purpose in being your friend. You know that we can we can never fulfill each other in that way. That doesn’t mean we can’t have conversations in good times and you know you share a coffee in the mornings and it was just like we grew close. Eventually my phone being and I’d get a message we’re starting to get mad every time it wasn’t her kid. That sounds awful but you do realize you’re falling in love. This can’t be happening. This can’t be happening. How did this happen to me. But whether it was my. Did you check the emotional qualifications first. No. No. In the back of my mind I was hoping she would come in and maybe find a good witness me and somebody because there are others like me of course. And I thought I could help.

[01:40:18] If nothing else she would see my example and maybe meet someone who would be like me because he was in the same. You know just all those crazy things helping someone is so funny because the way we view helping them is let us change everything about you. And then you’ll be worthy of our time is like no it’s you. This was the person not to who I got to be around and talk around. And I had maybe a hope because I wanted to fulfill but I didn’t care. Shira became a witness that was like the first time world. I didn’t want. I liked her as she was for who she was and it didn’t matter. If I thought her forever eternal happiness or the place to find a good man was amongst the witnesses I felt like they’re out there and I just want to be that friend to show you. Then we start adding more and more conversations about why it never happened how we know it can never happen. And eventually I put myself in a compromising situation. And again like is my pattern. I didn’t cross the line then and there. We went over to talk about it at that time was kind of like ultimatum like I can’t talk to you anymore because this is going too far too fast. We tried forever it seemed like to put the brakes on but then there is this. Well I still want to know if there is a magic between us and we shared a kiss and neck kiss was like just electric.

[01:41:46] The electricity in the touch it was everything I had ever wanted rather than the steel relationship I had had. And I fell. I went home and I just felt awful. I didn’t sleep much that night and I would get a message and I was hurt and can’t sleep. You know I had a cry. If you are about what we did we had it you know we shared that kiss. I know it’s on our mind too. And I said I’m not going to be some philanderer who just jumps between beds. I can’t play. Do you think we can have a future together. That’s I’m only interested in this if there’s a future and it was like Well yeah I would give you my all. All I ask you is I think compassion and that’s when I started to realize I’m me that I had. First of all the little guy was a baby still and he was starting the first downstairs. And I was still messaging and I was very relieved because I remember I get to go downstairs now to sleep with him in his room. There’s a food in there and I get to sleep with the baby which will put him at ease but. I just felt awful. I don’t want to share that bed. I don’t want to share their roofs. Having this conversation with someone else and knowing that I’m a person lately who anytime a message pings or goes off even if it’s my then wife I’m mad if it’s not this person and it’s like I’m all in with my heart. And now I’m starting to get my mind over and I haven’t yet given my body over.

[01:43:11] We shared the kiss but I’m starting to realize you’re fighting this and something’s just driving you and calling you and ultimately I’m I realized when they want to predict that march that I had to make a decision it wasn’t fair to either party. And the best thing I could do was be true to myself and say what I wanted but then have the strength and courage of my convictions. To do that and say like I can’t be with you and I’m going here. And one say it was a very swift. Every one of the witnesses was just shocked because it was literally like a train jumping tracks and pulled the lever. And I got off on this one. There was never any period of other communication like I wasn’t Flandry between beds that they couldn’t respected myself between then I would have hated who I was. I hated who I was what I was doing anyway. But I realized I needed a change and I really thought it recognized this is where I’m happy. Guy it’s going to hurt it’s gonna hurt and I want that happiness. But reaching out and taking it is going to hurt her hurt hurt hurt and it’s gonna hurt everyone in Iraq and I understand but I have to do this because it was for me for once. When I can have what I like. What I wanted and I wasn’t. After eight years of marriage and like this Roumi existence. We share a roof and we share bills and weeds.

[01:44:41] You sit on your phone over three feet away and I sit on my phone and we’re as separate as two people who are supposed to be together can ever be and I’m not happy with this. And about a month away from giving my first public talk as mysteriously as well like there’s a lot of pressure and a lot of life going on and I decided that I was changing my life up radically when I left that pretty much that night and the next the next day. And I never stayed in the old house again. I went over to my now wife Missy that was her place one of the meses and she was sure to fall asleep so nobody answered the door. And I went to my car slept in the parking lot behind the coffee shop where we had met and I didn’t get much sleep but that was really good that I didn’t have to just go between houses either I had a night in my car to just cry and think and pray and do all those things about what does this beat about who I am that I am doing this. What does this mean about who I am as my dad. Like am I just handing on the Sundheim thing or you’re another dad who isn’t going to be around for your kids you know and like nothing ever could have removed me from their lives before. And now I just it was it was the most conflicting. I can’t even describe it. If you were to tell me my own words like a time recording from now back then I would still think I was crazy and as I was going through it I thought it was crazy. I just knew it because my heart beat my only compass was pointing me that direction.

[01:46:22] And for the first time your heart was pointing you in a direction because if you think about it the relationship you had previous that wasn’t based on your heart what Jehovah’s Witnesses set up for relationships. It’s an intellectualising of it. It’s not about your heart. You’re not supposed to follow your heart. The hardest treacherous. You’re supposed to look at their spiritual qualifications their numbers and whether or not you know they’re going out in service for X amount of hours or how they’re meeting attendance is or whether or not they comment. You’re not your heart’s not involved nearly as much as your head is. And so yeah for the first time you were actually following your heart and and doing what you wanted to do instead of the default that was provided to you by an organization that does not have your best interests. And I won’t let myself completely off the hook and that in fact it was some arranged marriage. But this is my heart. That first marriage at the time. Sure. But I like the way you said nearly as much as your head. It’s an. But it’s you know there’s a table of emotions and spirituality and head at heart and everybody comes together and they meet and then they decide a decision. It’s like they don’t know. There’s a lot going on ever understanding yourself is a confusing thing ever. Sure. At any point. But you know when you’re young and you’re going through what I went through. Fresh off of a reinstatement. And then just as young as it was I probably wasn’t mature to fully know what I wanted.

[01:47:53] I never gave myself the time. Even when I was disfellowshipped a lot of people thought well that was your time to decide and you made the right decision. I was all guilt all the time because I felt like I’d never thought I was going to spend the rest of my life making it up to these friends and these people that I had hurt that if any one of them would still have me. I will give you my all just making it up to you. So I did. You know and it’s like it’s all guilt. There’s very little of it that’s genuine. Like you say in your podcast that no guilt being I did something wrong to shame being I am something wrong or I’m a bad person. I just do a bad thing. I am a bad thing. And I felt that was just my nature. I wasn’t happy that I was doing it. And here I was doing it again. But knowing this is actually my road to happiness. It’s gone. All I can do is rip the bandage off as quick as possible and get it over with. Like with everybody just sorry. This is it. We will work it out later on. My relationship with my children established and all this will happen. But thank God that I had missed you through it all. Because there were moments of like just grief my mom. Nobody understood and everybody always said I wanted to talk and my disfellowshipped brothers and sisters more talk to me and I didn’t trust them. I didn’t trust anyone.

[01:49:08] I felt like that was all David’s life just took a quick upheaval. Let’s tune in and get the juicy details. And I didn’t feel like anybody who sincerely wanted to help me. They just were happy to have you back in the club of this fellowship. People join the ranks of us imperfect ones rather than being David the golden child who stayed in that mind your mom’s favorite or any of that. And I felt like I can’t trust them I can’t trust. Elder I can’t trust any former experience I had. I could not trust. It seemed like I was just trusting my heart and I was so happy. And I instantly knew this and I hardly knew each other but there was like I was starting to feel confused and things like I felt were soulmates. This was the only way it makes sense because I couldn’t know someone better if I’d been friends with them for. You know like I’ve been married eight years. I hardly had any idea who the person was as what makes them tick. I just kind of knew how the process was going to take and predict it like weather patterns but I didn’t understand currents and air movements behind those very much at all. Sure. Missy and I if we had been friends for 20 years we couldn’t know each other better and it was just instant. And I felt its happiness laced with guilt. But it’s what I needed because ultimately the guilt will fade and the happiness will stay. And I am I’m all in on this. Like I love this person.

[01:50:30] We weren’t saying it at that time but I had known it and I had thought we were soul mates and she had told me she had talked to a psychic about me and certain details like he had. I was tall and I had no tattoos and dark hair and light eyes and that was all correct. Okay weird. And then he mentioned that you know you had the guy I was looking for that was a possible future had a ring. But he’s not married because it’s on his other hand and I routinely wore my wedding ring from the first marriage on my right hand. So when I play music like bass or wherever it doesn’t click. I’m a good guitar neck on the threats and so like little things like that where that’s crazy because that’s a it wasn’t like I was taking off my wedding ring to hide that I was married that. It was just I don’t like the sound it makes from my instruments and little details like that felt like that’s a decision I made were out of control of anyone and I’m starting to believe that we were drawn together and the universe has a plan for us. And I don’t know why I had to do it this way but some higher power made it happen and it was literally like miracles and things that we would hope for. It was wrapping itself around bending it to our will. Just to keep our happiness going. And that was the first time I realized that you know what miracles are is it’s literally love it it’s like positive vibes and good energy things happen for you when you start being happy you know. And like when you’re witness and things are going well.

[01:52:00] I always had this like complex where I thought I’m not fulfilling Jesus commandment. They said he would persecuted to you know like if they persecuted if they hate me they’ll hate you other things are going great for me. What am I doing wrong that I’m not being persecuted. I want some persecution. It’s a sick way of thinking that when stuff going well for you you know you just follow right. You just talked about what we were talking about you know back when we first started this conversation which is you didn’t try to control things you leave things just be. And you found happiness by doing so. Yeah. It’s the same thing. And I won’t go into too much of my marital life and relationship because she is worthy of a podcast all her own. It’s just she’s the best and the happiness I have in my life. I just want do a series on relationships. I would model every good thing after my messy and I’m completely happy about it. However the panic that was happening at a time like when people thought well what do you do. My mom thought I was on drugs and I was being accused of such crazy things that witnesses do not understand and they thought like I was doing this to make some plan to hurt my then wife Jessica like further and at that. Are you insane. I just want to be happy I don’t want to hurt you think I derive any pleasure forever. Do we miss that noise. It hurts. It hurts my boys. I’m feeling everybody in the hall. Everybody is don’t.

[01:53:30] There was a kid I felt that struck me about this like I had insane courage to actually do this but you guys want to make it like this evil thing and. If you think I’m not sorry about it because I’m going through things because I’ve met with the elders and they said well you don’t have to have this. We had a judicial meeting and they said you don’t have to have this you don’t you know there’s room for you can save this. I know that they keep wanting me to say wait scratch that I’ll go back to this dreary situation because then you guys more disciplined me. I wasn’t going to say it. I said no it doesn’t. It’s not for that I said I acted like I’m a cancer and everything I touch I just destroy. And I’m no good for anyone except for right now. I’m good at moving this one person and that’s what I want to do for the rest of my life. And they said all right well they inform me they were disfellowshipped me and they said David we see your business up about this. We see that you’re sorry about this but you know it doesn’t have to end this way and they won’t like stop trying to offer me that. And I said no and they said well we have to dispose of you. I said Fine you have no other bar you have seven days to appeal our decision in written form. It’s a crime wave that let’s just made. As I say your announcement and I don’t want to like on this is my decision.

[01:54:46] And they like this third like talking to each other as opposed to s he’s wanting to make a decision. What do we do. They’re like no on the policy says that we have to give you seven days even though we respect that you agree with our decision not to just waive that right for a viewing. We are we’re going to still give you the seven days and then you say well enough I come to the hall. I’m still a believer in my life. I just need to be with this person. I can be a witness coming to meetings and be with this person. So I’m asking a few questions like Well when I come to the meetings that my kids see me and they want to sit with me even Norby just how can I help them. Can they come over to me and my not allowed to know. That’s a good question. We’ll have to do some research. I’m feeling just like all these people who thought it didn’t hurt because I didn’t see it. I didn’t eat for days. I bawled Missy ball with me. She hated to see that. You think she felt good about the position she was in being this side of it and watching me just beat myself up. She would have to remind me to have a drink in the water that was just bags under my eyes. I’m sure I had cried every ounce of water out of me. It was awful. It was awful.

[01:56:04] But for the first time I was happy on my own terms and I was living on purpose like not an accident like I was born in this religion and accidentally happened. That was my happiness. I was doing it on my own terms. But I still want to do it. If that made sense I just was changing. Democrats salutes me my wife and I. You know I don’t know what the story is that goes around in the circles about why we left but it’s not like it was an easy decision as to disassociate everything that we knew behind. It’s not like it was something we just woke up one day and decide it’s just like it’s not like you woke up one day and we’re like hey you know what I want to leave my kids over here and go be with this person over here. And you know it’s just a whim. No it was a decision that was made over time. And there was a long back story there. It wasn’t even just about you and Missy. I mean you’re living with a wife where you can’t be who you are there either because you can’t discuss your doubts because you have this call that has interjected itself and woven itself into every fiber of your being. And so it takes time to break all that down. There’s so much backstory to any one that leaves or makes a decision like this voluntarily and then people look at you and judge you as though. Well you know look at all the people he’s hurting like you like you didn’t take that into account when you made that decision. You know the fact is don’t you. Go ahead. Go ahead.

[01:57:47] I’m just going say the fact that you are willing to endure all that pain and to take all that on shows exactly how much it meant to you that it was this. This was a huge deal that you were making. You were willing to risk it all for something that meant so much to you which you would think that you like them would applaud because they believe that they you know they gave up their relationships with their quote worldly relatives and family and they left. Fathers and mothers and brothers and sisters so that they could gain something in their cult. You’re doing the same thing on the way out. And yet she has some sort of respect for that. No they don’t. Nobody gets. I think that’s fine because I don’t need them to get it. I was more worried about this. I’m not going to be my dad. I’m not in my life. You know I need to still have a relationship with my boys and explain to them Mom loves you and I love you but we are not together anymore and that’s not anything to do with you and I were just really like pick up the pieces start building my life but letting them know that I’m with Missy and this is what makes me happy. This is a person who is more me than I am at times and it’s just fun to be with someone who gives every breath you draw energy rather than saps your energy and you just feel like this is joyous It’s joyous. It’s not what I wanted it’s not what I had planned. When I started but I do believe something guided us together we’re in a better place.

[01:59:24] And ultimately the fact that it led to my freedom from the cult. I really believe that. But the funny thing happened is it’s all the dichotomy of what it is to pick up those pieces and work out with the ex how you’re going to see your boys and finances and who gets what and going into a divorce. Imagine all that stress rates and I’m still a believing witness. I’m not going to meetings just because I don’t feel I’m good enough to be in the hall at a time so I go to a few odd ones here and there. And never show up wanting to know again. And I remember there was this one time where our I was over dropping the boys back off at their moms house and we had mentioned something happened. I remember I forget what the world event was but I want her know I get that you hate me but don’t think I’m ever out like against you guys. And being that witnesses truly pound their leg. Concentration camps could happen and you guys might be rounded up the Jehovah’s Witnesses will be persecuted. That was legit fear and I remember offering to her like you guys ever have to go into hiding like you can hide with us. Like I want you to know like I will let anyone hide my boys or hurt you like you guys could. And she laughed in my face. Obviously she knew her side might be different. They were my boys would say.

[02:00:48] But I remember thinking like I had I was I don’t derive pleasure from your situation but if if they start rounding up witnesses and I know my boys are part Asian like I’m going to want to reach out and help shield you from the local authorities or whoever will be chasing you. And she laughed and that was just the normal witness conversation as far as I was concerned. It just didn’t have the result I had hoped that she would recognize it. For that I still cared about the well-being of these individuals. Even if I didn’t want to personally say I I’ve known go endure your presence forever because that was not what I wanted. I just don’t want to see people in concentration camps no matter who they are. It gets so much less my boys. And she laughed. I felt hurt. I remember I came home and I told Misty and Misty was like that was the first y’all I realized now I’m talking to not win her seat. She looking at me like I’m I’m insane. And I just thought I had told her where you use your clothes. You can laugh like that. Now that we are like Don’t laugh this is going to happen. And when it does I told her that she did. You know they could hide out at you know whatever I’d help in any way I could. And that kind of was the moment where Misty said I laughed at David and then he was like Don’t laugh because he really believes this. Which means they really believe that. Which means he offered it to that woman who hates him which means it’s a very plausible thing to him right now. I’m going to start doing research and that’s when it all really began.

[02:02:25] After telling Misty about the concentration camp thing and the possibility of us being persecuted where they have to go into hiding as she thought I’m going to look online and see what these witnesses AKAs the stuff he’s telling me is just the you know hunky dory paradise. Everybody gets a panda and you get to eat oversized grapes and all that stuff. So she starts looking into it. And as you can imagine I am like first of all took a lot of strength just to make a decision on my own life. But then the person I’m weird makes me so happy I’m overlooking the fact that she’s got like paranormal ghost like movies the seasons of the episodes and she talks slightly and others others other stuff and I’m thinking army and like this goes against every fiber of my spiritual being that these things are in the house I’m in but I love you and you’re not asking me forcing me to watch them. She was understanding and patient about everything. The same mentality came in here when she starts work researching witnesses. She starts to ask was this true lesson. Oh because sometimes the apostates put it in a way that is true but it’s so brushed off the broad stroke on the negative side. So it does. It’s false on its face as well. Sure. It’s like. So I’d start saying no that’s not true and she’s telling me she’s looking at different sites or reading a book and she starts reading this article book by Anthony James called Knock knock who’s there the truth about Jehovah’s Witnesses. And she took a picture of it.

[02:03:54] And at this time everyone is so curious about her simply for that like I hate even use the term but that other woman factor that she’s getting creeper is from the Kingdom Hall who went Who is she. Well I’m I’ll find out on Facebook or if you’re blocked I’ll look it up and so everyone’s looking it up and she’s kind of a you want to you’ll let it leave us alone like stop driving by the House and trying to figure out you know they just leave us alone like I want to be happy and yet one only thing about me fired. So she asked she wanted to post a picture like this is what I’m listening to this entire Jehovah’s Witness book. Before she even put it up she asked me Would you be comfortable if I posted this picture and I said no. I decide I’m sorry please don’t. And she’s like Well do you want to read the book. I say no because he’s a bitter apostate who just his story is not mine and he’s just going to have nothing but bash. I know what’s on that book. And so I don’t need to listen to it. You can listen to it. I love you and I always like we have us and we don’t need to have a religion between us. But I don’t want it to be divisive between us either. Can we have that kind of agreement and you listen to the book. And she came back at me again and listen to it and really understand what it’s like language in me like great Crowden of friends.

[02:05:12] They’re always like terms that witnesses use that as a person know with no frame of reference here is it it sounds like you know that reading about is an oil business economics that you don’t have a business economics degree you like. This book is awful it just goes over my head. But she’s still respected that she didn’t post a picture when she was listening to the book and I like that she really respected my faith she always even as she is doing research and finding things out about my own faith that I don’t know yet. Instead of saying you need to see this or really like shoving its spoon feeding it down my throat she’s giving you all this leg space to operate in just be me and she knows I’m confused hurt and grieving and there’s a lot going on and she’s just that patient kind loving person who says OK. And I’m not ready for it. And then she asks the question now what does this mean in the book you said that. No. Will they just say that. Well yes but that’s the extreme version of it. He’s trying to dispel some of these things right. And then I’m getting more and more upset with my own like local creationists as it is. I don’t remember when it came about but we Sturr watchings the Leah Remini Scientology series and under Ciccolo. I’ve said it before I’ll say it again. She is like the Rosa Parks of this cult movement. Like if they all come toppling down and she is a large esposa and everything like this is the spark that’s going to start a spectrum fire.

[02:06:44] I don’t think she gets enough credit because the brilliance of that series was I’m okay with making fun of Scientology because they’re crazy you know. So I give myself license to sit and watch this program on faith when I want to give this book she had about my own faith. The same license now however and this is the brilliance of that shock is it. I would never let an apostate in my ruber on my phone or through alterable device. I didn’t want to hear it. I didn’t want to hear it. I knew what it was about and I was scared of apostates and I didn’t want to hear it. Star watching the Leah Remini. Well yeah. That’s like inviting them in your living room. Come on in. Tell us about your faith you know. And so now she’s in the homes throughout the nation of a lot of people who would never let someone else of their own faith coming to their home. Talk about bad on it. And as we’re sitting there and that first statement rolls up on the screen about the Church of Scientology has this claim that might render Leah Remini are bitter apostates who left a lot of circumstances and were never really that good of members anyway. I’m thinking that could you could basically pick after Scientology on the bottom for what to do about contracts society. I would have indiscernible who would wrote that statement. It could have been typed up by anyone at Bethel as like oh my god. OK. Well I’m watching now anyway I’m watching.

[02:08:06] So we’ll see what happens when hear the stories of this crazy cause I want to hear about the guy leaving the planet and others you know stuff and the funny things of it. But as she’s talking about the people in her story and the stories I’m sitting there and I know Misty is more educated on my own faith in me probably with this book already and I’m starting to have those feelings again about I’m feeling things I can’t communicate to my me. I don’t want to know how much this is making my skin crawl because it’s familiar like I don’t ever want her to know that. Like when we look together and say yeah that’s crazy. Can you believe this what we’re seeing right now. And then I look back at a screen saying Good God she just even had no idea what I was. I kind of live that you know. And I tried to act normal just act like this is crazy to you not that it’s very familiar. And as it starts to really release us it will be another episode or another episode. Doors are Biskit are starting to really Krakow’s this disconnect disfellowshipped arm clearing the planet is a sweet term. You know when you’re helping the planet go clear and cytology that’s the same as like marauded language. Witnesses use the truth in the way or a low light in all that I’m just like many like you two twins. This is ridiculous to me. This is so similar. This is exactly something I went through the theology behind his name. But the processional like Don’t read anything from us former members. Okay. That’s exactly what I would say you know.

[02:09:32] This matches up almost 4 legs so eerie it was really eerie where then ever after enough of learning what a real Kalt was and being convinced Scientology was and then it had really really Hunzo uncanny similarities and things in common with my own faith. Well I’m out working one day I’ll give that book a listen. So I give the new James book a listen. And the first part is like memoir where he’s just telling his story. And even as he’s telling his story and very thinking’s Oh yeah well you’re a bad witness. You know you knew you were going into this and you’re going what do you expect. You know yeah your story stinks. You know by that feel for you and it’s clear for me to just say that you were a bad witness. You were never that strong. It’s no shock during the predicament you’re in. You know that’s what my judgment on witness mind was still saying through the memoir part I’m the victim. Yes. Then he gets to the part where he starts dismantling the beliefs. And I’m like oh OK exchange. Remember I remember how she hit me because I washed windows to work like any good Jehovah’s Witness. You know you pick something and you can do your own hours. Absolutely. And I was washing windows and I remember like getting to that part in the book. All right. I can’t work and listen anymore like this is sit in your car and kind of just take a few minutes and he got through all wives just a flawed system. And so my mind had already been like OK it’s it’s not the truth. It’s lies.

[02:11:06] It’s lies. OK I got that. It’s lies. I understand that it’s lies. And I hate that XYZ and thereafter go back to thank goodness but it’s imperfect men running off flawed system. And I accepted that. And then the very next chapter is now that we’ve dismantled the beliefs in and of themselves. Here’s the darker side. And he starts going into like what cults are with the bite model and I’m realizing I’m a guy now. I was ready to quit. It was a flawed belief system. I could handle that. These are imperfect men. You know they say as much right all themselves. But the fact that it was a cult and it had exerted control over me through theB.I tea and I just. It’s true it’s true it’s absolutely true and I think it was the last thing I wanted to admit. I could walk away from a faith realizing it’s not what it claims but the fact that they actually have a high moral agenda behind their group crushed me. I never wanted to say it was a cult. I wanted to say it was a perfect and I want to say it was flawed but there wasn’t that darker side of it. And that book really I remember just quitting work that day it’s a make of hours. And I came home crying and Misty was like I was raised in a cult. I have to admit that now I don’t. Last thing I ever want to admit there’s no joy you get from giving up that last vestige of that last ghost Ward.

[02:12:36] Yes it’s a perfect but it’s not a cult. It’s also it’s also a little bit of an ego hit to realize that somebody essentially pranked you that you were manipulated that somebody owns you in that way. It’s it took me a while before I could use a term called. Now I have no problem with that. But yeah it took me a little while before I could say the word cult because you know living in a cult is what those crazy bastards on TV. Did you see that that’s not me. That can’t be me. And then when you. But once I realized the manipulation and the things that were behind it the dark side like you said yeah I have no problem calling it a call now but it’s still those first times that I did. I mean it just like a gut punch just lies saying man like I gave decades on deck my life I wasted in someone else’s sick game. And and it’s something you can never get back. Which honestly is part of the reason I’m doing things like this podcast is because it’s I guess it’s just on some level my way of making something good out of it because otherwise it’s hard for me to accept that you know what else did I get out of that. Like it just took for me for all those years. Yes. Like I’ve gotta make something of this because otherwise I have a hard time processing processing it especially you know where I am now and seeing this is you know this is the only life that at least I have evidence of their being for me that I wasted what half of it in that.

[02:14:37] You know it’s it’s it’s a tough it’s a tough thing to come to terms with it is and I remember too like he is going through the book. Are you familiar with the book at all that the new James book. No I’ve never heard of this one. It’s own audible it’s good. Knock knock Who’s there. The truth about those witnesses is very good. And then he has a part in there where as he’s going through his dismantling of a bit like there’s some things that don’t resonate as strongly as that’s forgivable. Okay so the society did this. That’s forgivable. When he gets into the fact that like they were part of the United Nations. I was beside myself that they were registered members because I was raised with that book being some of my favorite pitchers in the world. The revelation book. I knew theU.N. was bad. I knew and then I’m thinking wait what. You know like I can if you didn’t understand a scripture. That’s one thing. Your mind wasn’t fully enlightened. The light Adiga. This is a deliberate action a political move and it disgusted me. And then you hear about the 1975 staff which like that they were buying they weren’t selling. They were like we always have heard 1975 be talked about in terms of the people who don’t like it were those who got greedy and sold. They’re both trying to get rich think they’re Bartletts. Then we heard about the ones who bought boats and bought the big houses thinking they all never have to pay off those loans because the end’s coming.

[02:16:02] That’s who was always portrayed to me were the better ones right. One his book said there were people who said what happened selling them. Selling my house. To give it to the society. Going give that money to the branch gonna send it to New York because I’m gonna finish the system pioneering good people who actually gave what they had and then when they became disillusioned that the society say sorry we were wrong here’s your house and boat back. Use all your materials. Heck no. They know they kept it all and I’m thinking now we’re talking rank and file good hearted people who are trying to do what was right not just misinterpreting the scripture like you had the power to release those funds back to them where you were wrong. Instead you shame them and you picked a few cherry picked examples of like someone maybe did sell their house or bought a bigger house thinking they want to have to pay it off and that person has right to be bitter but again they were only ever in that situation because of what you said. Like really killed me they didn’t really say those things. I know you know what’s crazy is actually as much as I’ve been on this like my family and everybody else and I recently had a discussion with my mom. My mom didn’t talk to me for her much through all this.

[02:17:15] I was on drugs and she want nothing to do with me and she said such things about she said them things about missing out really hurt and I just like actually your podcast this GW life helped me a lot when you would mention to your sister in law that your mom tried to smooth things over and her response was something like Why would I. You won’t talk to your son. Why would I want to have a relationship so I don’t either. That is exactly how it is like. And it’s not even about me leaving the faith that she wants to say that’s the reason she’s shunning me but like why would I want to do anything with you. If you are the greatest woman I’ve ever known. And now I’m married to is this way. Then why would I miss you to be your friend. Like I’m the greatest man she claims to have ever known and that you won’t talk to me please like so it became a very easy thing. However just recently my mom which is such a mess that situation because my family my sister got reinstated would be my mom really happy because now out of all the kids she’s raised. What you are the one was murdered of course but she’ll be in the paradise. And then my older brother is disfellowshipped so until he gets his act together he wanted my younger brothers to fellowship and until he gets his act together he probably won’t but my sister is back now and I’m in a ministerial servant about to give talks. So all this is her mindset. You know everything is good for her. Yes. However before before I do all of this. Even my sister kind.

[02:18:42] My mom comes down like cancer in 2014 I believe and we did like one of the last times we were all together as siblings was at this meeting where we think maybe mom’s going and she tells us all this stuff and I remember being a witness and treating them like it was fun sitting with them but also very condescending to how I sat around and talked to them and I thought they were all just like lost people and my sister and I wrote down together and she took it hard. Then she came back with me and the next trip she went down and I think the stress just got to her something but she had caved in on the ride one of these trips down dealing with her mom’s like stuff without me and she stopped about smokes so she starts smoking again. Right. The elders the local elders here show her mercy and say that she just needs to get her head right. They go to her house. They make calls on her to this day still saying well what can we do to get you to come back. Are you interested in this or that. It’s such a weird thing when I think of it. Now everything’s coming back to me ever once. I was out in service and I had no idea where my sister lived and I was at the door and my sister answers it and I called you know I roll my eyes. You are behind this door all day. I find you in service and instead of saying anything I just say hey for finished you work it no longer here. I have this book. She’d like to read it. Here you go. I kind of thrust the letter and then I start walking down the stairs.

[02:20:12] The guy I was with was he moved in after my glasses. And he won. He immediately started really happy about my and things and he was asked that I would say if you want to read it I tell him my dissociates sister. Then also she’s back home to. And it kind of became this thing where once she finally got back and then she just kind of started smoking again. Faded the elders know she smokes. They know a lot about her and they go over and they talk to her try to encourage her and I had already reengaged in the shunning. I hate to admit that but I started she’s living a life that’s not witness enough you or they have a slacker. You know Don label on her that says you’re disfellowshipped. I was taking the personal step and saying I’m not going to have much outside of this to do with her guy here I really hate saying that but anyway my mom still talking to her. Everyone’s talking to her because they view her as redeemable. They just got to get her to quit smoking and get coming to the Kingdom Hall again it should be fun. So they’re going through all the steps and then my life uproots right. I do all I do and I’m right away. A different case where I’m on drugs I’m evil. I did the unthinkable left the relationship and my mom walked up to me and then she still talking to my sister who’s living and I’m actually living a clean life you know the divorce Aguada as paper goes to the courts.

[02:21:47] My life was uprooted more suddenly than but you got divorced got remarried you’re living with someone I’m only married to you the only woman in my life and I don’t smoke or drink or gamble like Miles slaving away. I’m good clean person. And yet my mom won’t talk to me and my sister. She’s kind of in the middle of issues. I tell mom all time she’s being terrible do you do that like all of a sudden you are this evil person who Shonda and you’re just like dad. She won’t talk to you and then I go down to visit her as she lets me have cigarette breaks on her back porch. I come back in and she resumes talking to me just fine. And I’m thinking you know so there’s that family part of it that’s really confusing to me. I’m thinking far right. I don’t. You’re never going to be close to me and miss you anyway. But the double standard if you can talk to Julie cause she doesn’t have that label on her is ridiculous to me and enduring think that’s ridiculous. All of the siblings think it’s ridiculous that my mom would talk to her because she had faded even though clearly doing things against the witness way. But I was off the table as far as having communications and it’s like really really bizarre but we just she needed a ride somewhere recently so we had helped out. We got talking and I asked my mom you know we kind of mended some fences actually where we might not ever agree on a religion but we can maybe have a relationship with each other if she wants to do it and that’s the only cure for it.

[02:23:09] Like know who I am as a person and not like who you think I can be as a fixer upper if I just get back into religion. That’s off the table. Do you think my wife wants to be a she joins the religion that’s off the table just if you want to know who we are. That would be the basis of the relationship. But in this mending fences conversation where we kind of hash it out talk about Dad we talk about the elders. She tells me where she’s not happy with her current husband. She tells me all this other stuff and then I asked her Well what do you think happened in 1975 and she came in right around 1972 she was baptized but she says well we knew it was ending and this is the person who this is. This blows my mind. I’ve been thinking about this for like the last four days. She told me I went to Canada and I think I was right around 1973 74 or maybe and she goes and I heard a talk from brother Noor and Nathan HRN president of the society at the time in Canada at a convention she says he chastised people. We all knew the end was coming and he said what are you doing starting painting your house at this day and age and in this time in history like would you brag you know polished brass in the sinking Titanic or whatever. We shouldn’t be thinking about long terms like this. Your kids will never go to school. He gave some talk where they said all this stuff because 1975 was for sure the end.

[02:24:35] And she just told me this like 40 years ago and I was like what the president of the society at the time said that clearly. And she’s like yeah. And then she goes and I remember your dad and I were a little upset because shortly thereafter they started posting pictures and they sent pictures of like the Stanley Theatre being remodeled and the Kingdom half way. We were going to you know they told us not to paint houses because the end was coming in there and get this huge construction you know remodel going on like was it didn’t sit well with her that they were going to take on this huge expense in this giant endeavor of redoing this property. Not long after when they were the ones condemning the rank and file for beginning a long term project. And I was just dumb. I still am dumbfounded that you could hear a talk from the president say something in such clear terms. And she would. Mind you this is a fully indoctrinated woman to this day who still believes like every like she won’t. And I don’t get how she was able to put that to the back of her mind. But even at all these years later that kid that would never go to school has now been murdered and dead for almost 20 years. And her baby has gone through school and excuse me.

[02:25:51] It’s just to me that so long ago and you heard it in no uncertain terms and now you even know it like you heard it in no uncertain terms and you believe these people because while they’re imperfect she says in the Bible look at what they did give you an Korris God’s name and you have a lot of important things right. And I’m just like I can’t even I can’t imagine someone hearing that much. It’s mind blowing isn’t it. It just it just goes to show. Jehovah’s Witnesses could do any thing and still keep their members. Now they’ll lose some. There’s always going to be some attrition through these things but at some point I have a feeling they’re going to have to get rid of the year 1914 and I have a feeling that they’re going to do so they’ll do it quietly because you know time will go on and people continue to die and they will find ways around their doctrines and people will still believe it. Because again it gets down to what your mom said well look what they did give us or who else who else taught us Jehovah’s name. And it’s like Jehovah is not even an accurate translation of the word of the letters. It’s it’s all made up and it doesn’t matter to them because they’re on some level it fits some need that these people have and they are willing at this point I think it sunk cost. They’ve already put so much in it. They can’t afford to leave. Yeah that’s part of it. They think I can’t leave this because look I’ve already given so much to this. I mean it takes a lot of courage and it’s very hard to leave something like that to admit to yourself and to everyone else that you lived a lie and this. Yeah.

[02:27:55] And the thing is my mom she retreated deeper into the truth through all the trauma she went through in her life with losing her daughter and the husband. So she knew they really really went anywhere even knowing they got dissociative break or something that has that effect. She. They were there for her during those times. They were that’s what got her through those times. So it’s it’s her back now even if she’s unhappy with it and can see bigotry and can see double standards. I don’t think she ever will awake in that sense. But it’s funny because the thing is to like the saddest part is my mom is a lot like me in that she blames herself for everything and the society like has this thing about everybody else in our kingdom hall all his kids stating the truth. All their kids did and the truth stayed together. I got divorces and I got all these kids now on the fellowship and one who’s not. But basically she’s living a worldly life of sorts. No she’s not pretending to be a witness in any way and that doesn’t mean anything. What the good people are the people you raised but yet a witness mom sees herself as a failure. I failed as a parent because I couldn’t make my children ascribe to my belief system. And that is so sad.

[02:29:07] And then you get children like me and like anyone else with things I feel my mom because I couldn’t just buy any longer and it’s like you think a system that measures a parent’s success or failure solely based off of whether or not they join their religion they were born into a stay forever is like right there would be like if you were an accountant you know and you say if I can’t you know you might I couldn’t raise my kid to be an accountant I failed as a parent. Like this just ludicrous to me. There you know that you would expect that to be the same generationally. You’re correct. Well I mean I’m a good narcissist wants to churn out copies of himself and that’s what the organization teaches people to do. There’s a scripture in think proverbs An’s in the New World Translation that Jehovah’s Witnesses use it says train up a boy in the way in which he should go and he will not turn aside from it. Well I once heard in other translations. Instead of saying train up a boy. And the way in which he should go. Or maybe it’s in the way in which he should what it says in other translations it says train up a boy in the way in which he is bent. In other words. The difference is Jehovah’s Witnesses say train up a boy and the way in which he should go. Here is a prescribed way. This is the path and train up this boy to follow this path. Exactly. But there are other translations say train up a boy in the way in which he is bent. Or in other words in the way in which in that child’s strengths in the way that that child is used is instead of a prescribed path. It says OK look at that kid who is this child. What are his capabilities what are his strengths and weaknesses.

[02:31:05] Now let’s let’s hope this boy find the path that fits who he is instead of going along a one size fits all prescribe path. And that’s the difference between Jehovah’s Witnesses and a lot of other religions. Jehovah’s Witnesses have this one path and they believe that their children are to follow that path exactly and be little copies of themselves little mini me’s. And if they are not. If they fail to be able to live up to and be exactly what I am as the parent or as the organization then they are failures and I am a failure for not being able to get them to go exactly down that one specific path. And it’s very sad that the organization has even recently come out. I believe it was everyone’s favorite governing body member tight pants Tony Anthony Mora’s who came out and actually basically said that if your children fail to go down that prescribed path then you need to look at yourself and blame yourself and see what it was that you did wrong as a parent. That is disgusting. And it is the way that I mean if that’s not a cult. What is God you’ve been hearing it makes me so upset because you never want to wish evil on someone but something minor like I get some shampoo in your eyes. MORRIS You think you’re much more caring than I am I wish. But I really wish evil upon him. Now I understand. It’s it’s it’s so disgusting and it’s so twisted. And they watch that. Yeah I’ll watch that. Yeah. When it came out and I can’t remember it was in the last.

[02:33:04] I want to say in the last year too when when is this talk or this part was given. I just remember there was a lot of outrage in the Jehovah’s Witness community about you know just what a horrible thing that is to say to the parents of these ones and how it’s honestly kind of like using them as Jehovah’s Witnesses once again to get at their parents to say no to guilt their parents and to guilt these Jehovah’s Witnesses for leaving. Because look at what it’s going to do to their parents. Because we’ve now made them think that they’re horrible people because you turned out like you did. It’s just it’s so insidious and it’s so. It’s just it’s evil. It is truly evil. And that is it really is. I remember too when we stirred the governing body became more and more visible that we get to start seeing wow this is look they’re they’re so personable and they will mingle with the loans and you get to see them and I got to meet Geoffrey Jackson at one of the assembly that I was so proud of. You know I remember when we we get to be privy to what goes on at the annual meeting. And then when he got up there and did his you know tight pants around feeling like I kind of like the hipster Métro look actually I feel like that’s OK. But I’ll never forget afterwards. The like. My then wife Jessica and her sister in law at the time they were all talking like no.

[02:34:35] But they’re such comfortable pants should we should we not wear the yoga pants anymore and they’re already thinking about making life changes and I remember telling them like girls don’t be ridiculous like the dude you see his haircut. If I tried on stage with that haircut it was like wild off the back like like you tell that man to get a haircut before he’s going to tell you what to wear. Just like they do. They looked at me like I had no blasphemed. Basically by this remember thinking Don’t change your pattern no matter what you like. You know what. Discretion is where what you’re comfortable and you’re not going to the hall in that it’s like I felt like he was overstepping its bounds and had no freedom of speech to say such just looking how he himself looked on the platform that day. I thought yeah you know this is you just was really into that guy and see that guy. Is I’m not trying to use the word. I mean it’s a serious time not trying to use it as an insult. That guy is mentally ill. Well he is one of the most disconnected from reality. I think there is right think has problems and it’s obvious in all of these governing body members that have come out from behind the curtain. If you look at them I mean it’s Wizard of Oz you know pay no man pay no attention to the man behind the curtain because he’s just this little nothing. And that’s what they are. They have come out from behind the curtain and they have put their crazy on full display. And thankfully it’s woken some people up.

[02:36:11] But unfortunately so many people buy it which again shows that they’re not going to change and they can get their members to do whatever they want. They will buy into whatever next round of crazy they put out there. Yeah. So is that then woke you up. I mean ultimately this book ultimately I became fully awake by that book. But then I started listening like you’re a podcast you actually helped me a lot come not just from the fact that it’s one thing to say it’s a bad faith and it’s no longer for me. But then it’s another when you’re fully awake and you realize I want to pull the fire alarm and get everyone out that I can like that. When that happens it’s not just no longer not for me like that was because of podcasts like Um jt and Lady C they helped me a lot. I questioned the timing the critical thinkers stuff because right away these are probably two people who feel they wasted their lives because he was all the way up in Bethel and that he had given himself to really go on up in the organization and I hope that he never feels that way because what he was doing was actually building the credentials that I can listen to a podcast and say This isn’t some fake person just acting like a Jehovah’s Witness that wants to save their own message. Which do you believe any apostate could be a liar and all that this guys he knows the truth speak. He’s he’s got the language I was raised speaking.

[02:37:37] This is a legit person who’s legit experience and you can tell he’s research like I can hear it in his words that this person he had to do that path to build those credentials where someone like me who doesn’t want to hear necessarily just the bitterness but like crisis of conscience has a lot of heart. John Cedar’s has a lot of heart. Your podcast has a lot of heart. It’s not just rail against and bashing with. You’re just lookin for pitchforks and torches that mob mentality where the heart of people who were hurt and they did care and they just can’t unlearn the things they learned. That’s what spoke to me and I felt like GTM ADC. They come from. He raised raising Canada but maybe Michigan or DC now so I forget where they’re from but anywhere they live in a big city and I remember feeling like for me in my whole little town where all the elders knew me and hearing them from an urban area with a bigger congregations and lots of shifting moving parts in the city. I felt like very relieved that all this is not. It’s not just my local elders are a botched job like the organization the world over. It’s the same in the rural as it is in the city. This is how the organization is run and it was very nice to see that in an urban area they got the same problems they got the same. It’s not just a click because I live in an area where Renaults are aware that it’s all over. That’s that’s the witnesses as universal as they claim their love is their flaws are just as universal not lately. And that was really good for I heard that podcast and he’s so researched I would hear him break a point down.

[02:39:17] And you JT knows this stuff. You can just feel it through the words and then yours. Help me a lot from a personal journey because I had naturally like all of them even the little things like I had put on weight and my unhappy marriage. No surprise there. And now I’m keeping it off. And believe it or not masturbation is not a problem for me. It literally just dissolved once my mind was happy. It was like some anxious habit I was doing through all those years of unhappiness and I have a wife now who I respect as a person an individual and even when I was a witness I hated the way they treated women. I had known readers who were like awful I’m thinking get this guy off stage there are ten sisters in here who can read better than him you know and I’ve felt like what do you guys get this idea that women can’t speak up or you know even in the Bible that if they have a baby girl they’re unclean for twice as long instead of just like seven days. If it’s a boy 14 if it’s a girl. The Bible is a book that’s just horrid to women. You know. I started to feel really like it’s not a timeless book it’s not a book that has a lot of truth for me and I’m becoming fully awake and then I hear your story. Your podcast help me and I start to realize my own experiences tell me that there’s a spirituality by firmly believe it’s an individual pursuit. It was never ever ever meant to be institutionalized.

[02:40:40] You can talk to someone about your experiences and spiritual beliefs but like it’s your relationship with the creator. That’s all it ever is and it’s not meant to be chargit. You know I’m gonna let ever trusted again to any institution be it. Lutherans or Buddhists or Daoism kind of appeals to me but that’s more just a philosophy than a religion. And I feel like there’s a lot of just you know your yes your mantra that you say you know love others do no harm and go be happy like that’s just how I feel. And then I heard you talking about. You put on weight and you ask that through my fitness pal which I had to go through. And now the weight stays off. Now my bad habits I was never liked my anxious things have stayed off and I’m happily married and you get to realize what a happy marriage is and my life is infinitely better except for my kids are still being raised in this religion. However I’m so glad that they have me in their life because I think through through me and Mesi and exposing not like letting them see for themselves that my way of life is probably just not attractive enough on its own. Yes they’ll grow up and they should be wiser than I was and I don’t want them. I just sent an e-mail to their mom not long ago like basically saying I don’t want them baptized until they’re 18 if we can work that out. She didn’t respond but I thought there’s too much history of holding a young child to this forever. When they make their decision making at that point is ridiculous.

[02:42:10] There’s no way they can grasp that they won’t think the same later than they do now and then Gina respond. I thought like if they do you can believe what you believe but don’t shun them. You know what I don’t want them to ever feel like their no kids should know the pain of being treated like their dad when they’re still alive. Isn’t that that interesting. I was actually thinking about just that when you were talking earlier about how you know you had this first baby and you were holding this baby. This kid of yours and you were just thinking about you know how much you loved this new than a life that you know and I was thinking you know can you imagine then turning around and shunning them because no what think what you want with me. That was another thought. I always knew that we kind of made fun of my ex-wife and I just forgot the time when I was in that organization made fun of my mom because we knew she was talking to my disfellowshipped brothers and sisters. But every time she talked to us she was like oh I don’t really have any unnecessary communication with them but she always like that throw those disclaimers out you know like your overcompensation for how little you talk to them. Makes me believe that every time you talk like I was disfellowshipped once Mom I know that you have you in your own way. You hobnob and you justify all the excuses to do it. And then my then wife Jessica was very hard on the idea like yeah that’s not right.

[02:43:36] You know and I was like you know you revisit your families all in the organization. Well Sue Smith my son ever decides he’s going to do some. Well then we’ll see how you act. But in my back or mind I could never voice it. But I knew I don’t. I’m going for as much as we laugh about her trying to cover up that she’s talking. I’m probably going to be the same guy and just talk to him all the time because hobnobbing or whatever it is like because you lost support. Yes. I mean you haven’t yet had you. They didn’t do a successful job of rooting out your humanity in the cold. They didn’t. They didn’t destroy your. They didn’t deaden your feelings. They didn’t destroy who you were. And you know that’s something they do to most people. So I would say honestly including myself they had destroyed a large part of yes my sensitivity and made me very hard and dark so their god it’s funny when you hear it now because now I feel so free like I feel like you know when a plane crash goes down and everything burns up and all the bodies are you know everyone dead right. Yet they recover that little black box and can tell you what happens. Some part of me that humanity that little black box was recovered and I rebuilt myself and there’s a new clean around. And it’s just the best feeling to feel like God. The crash and burn hurt but now that you’re you again I mean for the first time in my life.

[02:45:09] It’s exactly like October I went to my brother my brother’s wedding and this is the first time he’s been married and I’ve missed every sibling’s wedding. This is the first time a Brabin Earthlings wedding because I was too high and mighty to not oh I heard through the grapevine mom that you know things that happened to my one brother was married and I never said Congratulations when’s your anniversary I’m glad to hear it for your heart. I hope you’re happy. I was just like oh good. Just one more call that Satan has in you that keeps you in his world. You know there was such condensation about it and to go there. I was beside myself with giddy joy and just tears all the time and apologizing. And even though these are ex witnesses so they get the game. My brother Ruben couldn’t be better. He was like dude don’t I get it. I’ve been stuck. That is the part is that we’re here to be happy with you that way. Thanks for having me here today. And you know there is that touch of hurt where there is no doubt in my mind. And I hate to say this like it matters it doesn’t. But I always knew growing up I was going to be the best man ever that Rubin’s wedding music gave me the best man. Right. And then our lives derailed. We fell out of contact. And I was just happy to be in attendance. You know yeah was ever something that weighed in the balance when it occurred to me as a child. Yes. So then.

[02:46:40] So you mentioned your children then are currently I guess they are with their mom the majority of the time. And maybe yeah we got the weekends and like extra time they have off from school and like somewhere I can get them for longer spurts if I wish. But I’m on basically the alternating weekend schedule. Gotcha. And so. So then they are are they primarily being raised then as witnesses currently. Well not here not here. They are over there. But my ex has actually gotten married too. So they’re struggling they live in a bigger city now and they miss their old home. They’re adjusting to a new man. Like you know one is for and he’s going to be for February. He’s pretty easy to well just because he’s so young still. No one who remembers everything now he’s 7 but he’s starting to exhibit some so he’s got some behavioral stuff that he’s an angry 7 year old. My parents got divorced. You’re young confused who the world does make sense and your mom tells you dad is not going to make it into paradise and you love your dad and you hate that that’s a thing. It’s she shouldn’t have to worry about that. So we tried to make very clear boundaries of like can I ask. Has that literally happened that has. That’s a true thing. Yeah. You. His mom has really told him that you want to be in paradise. Well someone has because they came they came to my house one time one visit and he was having a moment where I sat him down and talk we’ll go out with as well. What’s why are you acting this way.

[02:48:11] And he was you know crying until her dad. Are you going to be in the paradise. You know I say what. No I don’t. Misty was there as she cast that and thankfully because she’s got a really good way with that as well. Some people call her. Some people call it heaven. Some people you know make an eternal reward and I doubt whether his grandparents or his mom or whoever said it that even if it was just inferred that anyone who doesn’t go to them that’s why do you think that he says you don’t go to the meetings and I say right. You know that this the Bible say you have to go to meetings to make it in producer doesn’t say that God judges your heart. And I asked them what do you think of my heart my good man or a wicked man. And he’s a good man. Yeah. And only God can see that right. So he gets to make a decision. So whoever said I wasn’t going to they don’t get to make that decision. Only God knows my heart. And I think you know my heart when you smile and laugh that we were just like. It’s a messed up seem to think. To see those pictures that kids see and think oh my dad that could be him that could be them you know he’s not alcohol and I just feel for them. However the great thing is now we’ve established I are very good at like we’ve got a lot of counseling the two of us. And I want my kids to go to counseling.

[02:49:27] I want people to talk about their feelings and we will talk more and be open communication. There’s a lot and we’ve already got him where he’s excited about. We don’t tell him you have to talk about Christmas you’re celebrating Christmas with us but when he’s here. Like any kid it’s just normal. He jumps any wants to make Christmas tree crafts he wants to be which presents have my name on them and he knows that he’s to get birthday parties at me. And I asked him how that went. His mom said she’s not mad at me if I want to do it. She said OK I mean you’re obviously mad at me but I think that’s good because know if you want your kid first of all the onus is on her if she wants to enforce all those things especially the gray area stuff that witnesses teach like not just interpretations of the Bible but like the birthday stuff is like to why he can’t be a football you explain to him why he can’t have a beard if he wants one like you explain to him why. Yes it’s a suit but the cuffs around the ankles are too tight like honestly like. If you want that the onus is on you to explain it which hopefully will spur her to really do more research. And anyone who does enough research enough questions are raised and you start to realize much like I was realizing I don’t have a good answer for why I went to a blood transfusion or that I could ever shown him. I don’t have that answer. You know they don’t. It doesn’t. My heart says a different answer.

[02:50:48] And I just feel that is the tough questions are raised to a person that they have to think about maybe they can think about them and whether or not they ever wake up. I believe my boys through our household and I’ve fought and fought for some of their rights like at school he can do a gingerbread house. Coming up this season and we sat down I was doing at the conference as to their father away. But as the teachers asked us well what fast can they sing what can we do here. I actually got I won this argument out where I got them to say I want him to have a choice if he says he’s not comfortable singing a Christmas song Don’t make him do it but don’t just remove him from the classroom and he has to feel that you know he’s already dealing with a lot just moving there and everything in his life but that ostracism and now I’m not normal. It’s like giving him the choice and realizing he can use his voice and has the power of his own voice should give him a sense of I’m worthy. I’m important my voice matters and I will tell him there’s no there’s no harm in singing a song. It was a Christmas song. What’s a winter song is Jingle Bells say anything about Santa Baby Jesus or is it just wintery. Like like I want him to be able to use his mind and encourage critical thinking skills where eventually it’s going to poke holes through flimsy arguments rather quickly but I fear. I think that he’s there showing it.

[02:52:12] You know it’s easy to throw a kid wants candy and cake right but I want him not to feel like it’s just a reward if he says hi or happy birthday to a kid on his birthday. It’s classroom. I said the schools are separation of church and state anyway. They’re not going to be like our religious institution where beeg thought he had the bully removed. And then I kind of e-mail the teacher and teachers start this thing and I could hear on the other line you know she was just hating every second of it but kind of knew she was on the ropes so she had to agree she’s like. OK. He has a choice. If she if he has a choice or he doesn’t let him sing a Christmas song. Well we’re not on the same page. How do you feel and she would say but then she kind of had to say if he has the choice it’s just it’s not a religious institution that can’t be that damaging to anyone’s face. And so at least he’s big at the freedoms that I never had. You know the nation and either different. Yeah. Yeah. And I’m showing it to them in a way that like most witnesses when you leave want your life to fall in shambles you know and the fact that I have a good clean life attractive and things are going well. And it has nothing to do with blessings from Jehovah. I think that they’ll be really smart enough to just see that it speaks for itself or even if they decide they want to be witnesses. I hope that they decide it.

[02:53:37] If that’s what they want and then if they get themselves disfellowshipped and say oh geez Marcia treated me differently then dad who is the exact same he takes my fourth car he tells me he loves me and I could be whatever I wanted and he’s happy to just say spread your wings son you’re my son. And I just wanted to have kids to watch them grow. You know it becomes something more than what they were. That’s all I’m in this for you know. So what about you. What you have any dreams for your new life. I mean any goals for the future something that you and Missy or just you or looking forward to. Well goals. I just want to be happy I want to see the world I want to travel. I’ve got a dog now and we just got this puppy and I take our walks all the time. And I used to have a dog and it was a bad honor. I was terrible dog owner. He stayed outside. Is he going to be in the house because the allergies of like my in-laws when they would visit so he was outside all the time. I never walked him because it was literally go windows all day or go on. I did a bike ride I had to do things and then you come home and you’re something Craddock stealing your time. You know I was a bad business owner because it’s work work work all day and age being like I’ll leave this job half done and then come back and finish and like I get to be a good dog owner. I get to be a good business owner.

[02:55:01] I get to be better at the things I’m already doing in wanting to do because I can more fully invest myself and not feel like it’s a guilt you know how much time did do. Doing this activity like I’ve been taught to Bob bicycling as much as I have. They said wow you know how much this is by are you going to be a the. What’s the point and say Oh well then why why why why train as many hours as you need to. Well don’t you think those hours in the ministry would be better than you know like hours on a bicycle and stuff. And I just do I get to live and I can go to a movie and not worry if it’s like where radar has it’s like I’m an adult. And if it has nudity or whatever it may have I think I can handle it. You know I will walk out the same person that walked in and just say yes that was excessive our former opinion about or whatever. But when you if you just get to if you don’t want to just you you get to be me. I get to learn who I am. I’m a real dog hunter this time not just somebody who wanted a pet but never had the time to do it the right way before. Because it’s a responsibility. It’s a task and I had already felt over responsibility and task in her well that’s beautiful man.

[02:56:19] I mean ultimately it sounds like you found happiness and yet so you know you know like I think it’s an amazing place to be when you don’t have to have you know these future goals that you know you’re hoping like this will bring me happiness or some dream or something because you live in the dream you do your being who you want to be and you’re doing what you want to do. And you know that’s all any of us can hope for. And that’s exactly what Jehovah’s Witnesses steal from people so you have taken it all back. And I think I wish you the best and I think that that’s that’s a beautiful thing and you know just like I say at the end of every podcast I guess love others do no harm and go be happy. It sounds like your. Is the dream Oh I always had a hard time to like even going on vacations you know how when you go on vacations or there’s a kind of holiness towers stop. And my ex-wife. She was always somehow she has this balance but she’s die diehard at the same time where they have no problem not going to a meeting. But I would always have a guide we should be going it’s Sunday. You know we should be going you know we should we should do this and say well all vacation and it’s like you have a disconnect. Where does that come from. I wish I had that. And yet she’s someone who would never ever probably leave the organization and yet me as a person who felt guilty. Any time we traveled somewhere I should be at a meeting hour. Are we going to bring a suit just in case. And it’s and it’s like that’s my life now is I get to travel anywhere.

[02:58:00] I don’t care about me. It’s nice to not worry. Am I going to get my time in on this part of the month. That’s it’s just I’m living my life and on my own terms not on the mere accident. I was born into a faith that my mom decided she liked I want to thank you for listening to David story today. The final part of this story a bonus episode will be released next week in Please subscribe so that you can get it in all of these stories automatically as they’re released. Each time please also show David and other support by going to my Web site shunnedpodcast.com and if you go to the episodes page there you can leave a comment for any of the people who are telling their story. They can not only read but they can also respond to your comments. So just go to shun the podcast dot com and go to the episodes page and you’ll see an individual post for each story and you can reply and comments on those stories. You can also find links to things on there that have helped each person as they were waking up and leaving the cult if you want to hear my personal story. You can listen to a podcast called this JW life or go to the Web site thisjwlife.com. And that was my personal story. It’s a nine part series. And you can if you’re not familiar with the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses you can really learn a lot there about how they function what they teach.

[02:59:44] Alongside my personal story one find a way to show support is to leave a review on iTunes just leaving a five star review leaving your personal comments whatever it is that impacted you. This helps other people to find the podcast so that they can get the help that they might need as well. So I’ll send this one out the way I send them all out love others do no harm and go be happy.

David Part 1.mp3

[00:00:01] Welcome to the shunned podcast. Today’s episode is the story of David. Now this episode and the ones that follow are going to be a little different. David had a lot to share. And so this episode is actually going to be or his episode is going to be three parts. There will be two regular episodes and then I’m going to throw in a bonus episode as well. The bonus will consist of some things that we talked about really before we got to David’s story before we really started outlining everything and putting it in order. We had a conversation that I think was pretty important and that some people need to hear and I hope that it helps others. I will warn you that some of the story that we’re about to delve into is intense. It does deal with the matters of sexual abuse. This is a very important topic. The Watchtower organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses has been under fire recently through some documents that showed up on a faith Leak’s site. Through that story being picked up by Newsweek by the Daily Mail through the Australian Royal Commission through the process that were held at war with the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses in New York this is a topic that was not talked about inside of the organization as we were Jehovah’s Witnesses. This is something that for an organization that claims to be led by God was largely ignored and that it has taken outside influences to explain.

[00:01:51] For science as for psychologists for four therapists to get to the root of things like sexual abuse how it affects people how predators really are wired and and how they act. And for some reason the organization led by God supposedly claiming to be led by God did not understand this. However these things have come to light and this is a topic that needs to be discussed. It needs to be brought to light so that people can heal. And so that’s a lot of people can know that they’re not alone. So David was courageous enough to share his story so that he could help others feel less alone. And I want to. David was gracious enough to to do this so that I could share it with you. These episodes are going to be a little different. They’re not the normal way that stories are told on here. They will be more conversational. It will be a conversation between him and I and he’ll hopefully you’ll take away quite a bit from it. I hope that this information or this story that you don’t just come away with it. Let’s not boil it down to just being this one aspect. You know this aspect of sexual abuse and the conversations surrounding it. David lived a lifetime of experiences and just a short time. There is a lot to learn here. David is a beautiful soul for allowing himself to be vulnerable and to express these things and then I mean you just see throughout his story that he’s a pretty awesome person a great human being. And sadly. Well maybe not sadly but it is a lot of the most sincere people in the organization known as Jehovah’s Witnesses that leave.

[00:03:50] There was something that I’ve noticed since getting out and that and learning the stories of people that it is a lot of the people who are the most heartfelt and sincere that end up leaving the organization known as the truth so I want to thank David for sharing his life with me so that I can share it with you. And without further ado let’s go ahead and get to David’s story. My name is David. I’m 33 years old. I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I am shunned. All right so then David how do you come into the religion how how did that how do you find yourself in that situation. Well I was born in. So it’s all I really ever knew. And I remember when I was young like looking in my parents Bibles like my mom had a big big black one with the red on the binding of it and along the pages and I opened the inside cover and had her baptism. And she would always talk about being aloof and before and stuff but I just saw everything happening to them. That’s only a few years before I was born. Did it make sense that someone could not be just born into this and I felt so lucky that so then you got to be born in. How did your parents then say your mom. Think you said she was Lutheran. How did. How did she come into the religion. You know how that all originated and maybe your father too. How that came about. Well the way I understand it is my mom came in the religion because she was raised Luther.

[00:05:32] And when they were living up in northern Minnesota some people came to the door some nice people and I know them and I know their names and I’ve even like on separate occasions went up to them and thank them because of my way to my parents and so I wrote my spiritual grandparents but they came in her original goal was she was going to help these poor confused people so she brought them in it was going to share. No no box them up with her. King James Bible about redeeming their soul basically. And so she started to listen to them though and liked what they were saying. My dad he was a bit more skeptical and I’ve heard stories that like since then like the guy who came with his wife who studied with my mom was terrified of my dad at first because he stood in the doorway the whole time and he was actually taking in the information. He just wasn’t showing an eager spirit because he himself was shortly thereafter converted but he stood under this doorway with his arms crossed and right above it was hanging like his rifle gun. And so I was just terrified thinking oh man this guy just hates what I’m telling his wife and he’s not going to stand for it too long. So it’s funny that he was actually being converted in that doorway. So they both kind of were reached through the ministry work in the heyday of the 70s and before 75 to which is important. I think that they were in that mass spell of expansion. Yeah that makes sense. That was a big time because yes they loved 275 that’s when they were in there.

[00:07:08] So then what did it mean to you back then. You know who were you then. How do you feel about it. What was it to you. What did Jehovah’s Witnesses mean to you. Well when I was young my life had a lot of confusion because my parents eventually got divorced when I was still young and I don’t know this sound terrible that I’d actually don’t know how all that was when it happened. Just being young not wanting it to happen not understanding and there’s a lot of confusion that a young person could digest that. So but I remember my mom was teaching us mostly and my dad was around biodome and I hear the question again. I got Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah no problem. You know just what. Where were you. So you know your parents are witnesses. You are. And you’re what are you. How you know how. What did it mean to you. I mean did it when we can kind of incorporate the next question. What was the world view that the religion gave you. You know what. How did it how did it impact you. You know being a young witness well what it meant to me was that I just felt very lucky because I was born into what I was told was the one and only true religion. And so I thought God this just works out great. I just get all my other friends. They don’t know about Jehovah want to talk about Jehovah. They don’t know that there’s a paradise we can have tigers and they don’t know these things.

[00:08:37] And I remember feeling like how lucky I was. But I was also very scared. My world view could be like there were the people I liked and I felt like they won’t get to be there in my grandparents because my parents came in saw both grandpa and grandma on both sides. You know this is my family. What they don’t get to be there. I couldn’t. It was hard for me to reconcile that people I liked and seemed to be good. Still working to make it. I remember as a young kid in school was like first grade. There’s a boy named Gavin and he really he was just kind of trying to push the envelope more than anything like edgy conversion of morals. He was heavy but he liked that I didn’t say the Pledge of Allegiance. So one day he joined me and he said see it either. And he put his hand out of his heart and he just stood there looking at him. I felt so proud that I ran home and I was like time our oldest Gavin you know at school like I know he’s like school friends and we’re supposed to hang out with him but you don’t understand what he did today. He stood up for Jehovah. He did it. You see the Pledge of Allegiance.

[00:09:45] And then you still I get it now as an adult that he probably was just doing it to be edgy and shock value but to my mom she says it didn’t mean anything to me I just couldn’t make sense of it how I know I should be able to hang out with him now because he’s not young you know what he’s doing is trying to make change it’s just a friend and it wasn’t quite that way and then eventually you know my parents got divorced. Things changed a bit. But. Well then what was your childhood like at home. You know how how were you treated. Because it’s not like you just had parents you had parents who were Jehovah’s Witnesses so you know what was life like at home life was at home. Three I guess when is really young pretty easy. Pretty simple. My dad. Some of my earlier memories were signs of his abuse was starting to come out. And I remember things more as impressions like I remember the impression I got here. This was tied to that effect. And I don’t know years or dates but he was starting to be abusive and you know his temper was getting to where my mom couldn’t handle anymore so they were on the edge of splitsville. I remember the divorce took precedence over everything pretty much and I didn’t know why my dad couldn’t live with us anymore. I remember he came to the house with some pleas to get the rest of his things some time. And as a young person I was just fascinated that men in uniform with your shiny handcuffs and guns on their hip were at my house and then Dad grabbed his box and he left and I’m begging my mom like just give him another chance some time. Now I think it’s sitting in his garden. Part of it was because it was a temper issue and his abuse.

[00:11:36] There was an order for protection so he wasn’t allowed in like 500 feet of us and my mom’s way of acquiescing that was well years ago when your father and I came in truth. I actually went up to that meetings in our park Rapids which is a congregation like 45 minutes north of us. And so because the order of protection he can stay here in my town. And he would go to the meetings here and we would travel by 45 minutes to the Kingdom Hall. So that was my my mom kind of after everything hard happened with the divorce she just went like die hard as hard as I’ve ever seen. And I think that’s what’s her mission in life now. She’s willing to drive 45 minutes one way or an hour and half a drive time. This is back in the 90s when we had Tuesday night meeting Thursday night meeting ceremony service and Sunday mornings. And I just remember thinking like we would bring our book bags and we’d have a backpack full of round them on call around home close our lingo I guess play clothes is better than most of ours and that dress clothes and round home clothes that we’d stay in place with our families other. So I was building friendships and Wadena with my dad going there became more and more of like a distant memory where when I would see people like in the store even elders and guys who ignored me had felt like I should know them. Oh that’s a witness. And I just can’t remember the name.

[00:13:03] And it was very odd for me because I was in a sense going to a kind of half 45 minutes out of where I lived but my mom buried there. And because of her situation everyone was sharing you on you’re going through this poor thing and you got to divorce your husband was abusive and you’re just trying to do the best for your kids. She got that love bond as much as she also got the support of you’re in a new hall where you used to go years ago. And there’s that return to old friendship. You’ve got kids. So there’s that warmth of welcome that love bond as well and I just got all these new faces to elders and elders Gittel new fans. Anyone taking an interest in me and it was great. You know for not just being anonymous speak. Yeah yeah. I mean that makes sense. What happened to your dad. So he goes to the creation you know where you lived. I mean you know if there’s an IPO and things like that. Was he disfellowshipped. No it was actually my mom divorced him because he was abusive which was unscriptural so she and the others I guess tried to make amends like tried to keep them together which we’ll get into the elders qualifications as marriage counselors. Later I’m sure. But you know like two people dealing with serious issues before when I was trying to raise us four remaining kids you know before us even I had an older sister who I had never met. She ran away at 15. I was just a baby I had no memories of her at all. And like that was always she was like this legend of something I knew would never matter.

[00:14:49] Like oh that would be my sister you’re talking of. She ran away because my dad’s abuse she couldn’t take him. She hated him. They had very strong character and butted heads nonstop. She eventually just ran away. No no word from a mom where she was headed or anything. Very hard life for her son. Your dad wasn’t. So was your mom disfellowshipped. No not disfellowshipped. She was just like put it in that light. I don’t know if it was her proof even I haven’t. I’m very. The details were kept for me. I just know that the elders didn’t. They were also friends of my dad so they kind of took his side because she was getting a divorce on UN scriptural grounds even though he was abusive. But they everybody knew him as this great guy. He was a great guy to all of them. They never saw any abuse. They all thought that while she had it coming Malfi daughter we know what she was like and my mom just. My mom was just hell bent on this like idea. I’m not going to let one of these other boys grow up like I lost one daughter to you and your attitude that she’s got these remaining four. She is not going to be with him and even it was kind of like reproof but we’re advising you stay together. My mom said thanks for your advice.

[00:16:06] But no still divorced him and that’s what kind of put her in a way where she didn’t get a lot of sympathy or support from the local elders which I also think it made her made it easy for her to jump ship and go up to that kind of relationship. If it was 45 Maria that makes away yeah go go where nobody really knows you. To that extent or knows the current situation is so much. Yeah. And oddly even the people in the congregation north though didn’t know the extent because that’s kind of the area where they came in to the organization so they knew him and they knew her but they kind of knew enough to they were a little more I guess her side than his side. And they were sympathetic then rather than he was their body necessarily like he would have been at the Park Rapids that was that was I don’t know. It was like her side his side and somehow their bodies took a side. Oh yeah yeah yeah that’s yeah that’s how they work. So then you know you’re now going 45 minutes to this new creation. You know you’re a little kid and and so now you know you’re progressing into your teenage years. You know how how did how did life transpire you know how did how did life go as far as you know at school. You know at the Keenum Hall at home. How is being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses impacting all that. Well eventually along the way my dad. Now the divorce has happened. He always tried to be a part of our life right.

[00:17:40] He won all against the order for protection he was intercepted on the way through school like you some gifts or say you know don’t don’t tell your mom this is this came for me and when you come home with a skateboard she knows you need to go buy a skateboard. I remember this one skateboard he bought me or intercepted me in his car. It’s funny how my dad was such a strong character when I look back at him I can see where he could be stubborn and pigheaded and have a temporary. He is very sure he stopped me in his car like that you know like right in front of me is at the stop sign is they’ve already had the brain of the skateboard and he shows it to me. I just love head like blue and orange wheels. That was awesome. There’s the old Broadlawns but there is this union on the bottom. And I remember telling him that I can’t I can’t have it’s kind of you here. And he looked at me kind of rolled his eyes as they were like OK OK you know he’s being patient to kick out his knife and then starts scraping paint on the bottom right. And this is a little bit of a process. The other car ever starts coming up and they’re like what’s going on. And he just waves them around like he’s not moving his feet. You you go around fitness scratching and yelling and the bottom of the skateboard. And once it meets my standard where it’s not demonic now I bring it home and my mom looks at it and I remember when she like David and you know he can’t be doing this rage. She hated that she had a crush more like that but to her mind that’s what she had to do. Is he broken.

[00:19:10] He can’t be giving gifts like this. And when we first went the park Rachal there was a brother who took an interest in me with a bow and arrow and I was like Native Americans in archery and Robin Hood and just the middle like that kind of stuff. And I got a bowl for you what someone’s got to give me and it’s a Borio. And then you are still working in a house all showing an interest in me Mama. She’s always she’s just happy son was interested in her kids and helping out and she’s going through all that stuff. But then when the guy gets me along because he also knew my dad he says well don’t tell your mother this was from your dad and you want you to have it. He knew it couldn’t get it so he was like using subversive means through people and all contacts to still distort things to us. He was always trying he just wasn’t sure he didn’t have the skill set to be the dad that could have worked things out with my mom and be a dad that way. And eventually he gets remarried. So what happens to my dad is he gets remarried to another gown and because the divorce wasn’t scriptural this is his first you know love outside of the marriage bonds they meet with the wife his new wife that is she gets disfellowshipped when it comes his turn to meet with the elders he goes to the ones here with Dina who are also his buddies. And then he says something to the effect that like King David was sorry he did awful things and they parted him basically he gets no punishment.

[00:20:40] So his new wife gets disfellowshipped because she married someone who is technically not scripturally free to remarry. Yes but he being the guy who knows he’s not scripturally free to remarry skates. Yeah. That’s the thing is he gets in there it goes back to he could just rally against these local elders so much. But they I know them and they talk to me about this situation before and they said well you try to help a guy out. You’re all that comes back to bite because they gave my dad a break there and they admitted that they did it disfellowshipping there. What happens now is bird goes up to the third overseer. He says Wait what. The wife is our husband got to stay because he you guys this decision he wipes that judicial committee out of. None of them are elders anymore. So now they really think my mom and my side of the family is like that. They got axes to grind it away and yeah they lose their position. They kind of just become rank and file again and other people are promoted Hall’s kind of failure for a while. Eventually they do work their way back up where I think for sure. Two of the three I don’t even know if I know ever who the third one was on that meeting. But yeah two of the three are now elders again. They have been elders for years. It was just one of those situations where because so much of all calls by family and they feel like they’ve been on both ends of it receiving go.

[00:22:14] They got removed as it was their decision and they were giving a free pass and then when it came back to bite they like further than like my mom or my family. But now my dad’s remarried he goes to live where her whole is with the new wife and then retroactively he is disfellowshipped because the CEOs wife removed those elders meet with the ones who are disfellowshipped her and do what they say. So he meets with her elders and they say Utu Gairy you disfellowshipped. And now they’re both disfellowshipped living out of Wadena and my mom kind of sees that as an he’s moved down his life and Wadena is now open for us to return again. So we stop going to the park rapids meetings. Then we return back to our home congregation which after all the elder body and now their wives and they’re none too happy I think to see us again. I mean here comes drama you know how you know and then they’ve they’ve been some of them have been removed as elders and the family’s been impacted. Wow I’m sure they were shooting daggers when they saw you all walk in. Yeah pretty much. So then how did go you know for you at the new place. You know I don’t know how old you were at this time. Well this is kind of a part of my life back that gets to my teenage years. Elders who were removed are healthy locals are fine with anyone. I feel like I’m an outsider. Skateboard. I listen to music and I change my wall and they just think of me is weird.

[00:23:53] He’s that kid at every get together he’s outside playing hacky sack rather than shooting with the most elderly senior members of the congregation. So he’s if we’re taking a pause the next one to leave was higher on the radar. And I just knew that day back in the Devils game. I knew there was this person. I’ve always felt there was a perception of me that Blake Well like any other youth who lash out or act out alone. My mom didn’t know what to do. So she had a man in her life for a long time and I would think she was drama just completely anything that came up. I’m calling the elders to the elders dealt with us like we like you know they don’t want to come over and talk to you about your music or you’re really mad at your mom right now and so it’s like they were out there with chop talk to a girl. And the dad knew about and I was feel like I remember them not I not I don’t know if it was any of Ridgway heads. You know that’s that’s who she turned to because I think she went all in on the religion. Yeah. For her situation. And if it wasn’t going to help her in the stressful times. I don’t know. She gave it her. Also she expected her to save her and give that back a chance. Yeah. That was her relationship. It became her relationship that was so cute. Yeah absolutely. And then eventually Don she gets remarried in 98 and now I’m probably 14 going on 15.

[00:25:29] And no I don’t like the guy that never see my mom happy like this before. So you know you’re kind of like it and don’t have any affinity to him or closeness to him. No he he had a lot of issues himself I just never got completely comfortable with him it was more like my mom husband moved in with doesn’t he was he was a roommate of sorts more than a father figure at all. And because of his own issues I often she herself made comments about to take another kid growing up on know little kurumsal stuff like that where you just feel like even when he wasn’t around. My mom’s words and opinion of him really made me think look I don’t have any warm fuzzy toward this guy and if that’s how you will feel at all here and I just he just exists in our house. But that’s not fair. We’re going to put him or you in here. There he was we were he had he had issues that we could do like five podcasts on just him and he wanted back to me. I feel like this is the point where from a spiritual standpoint I didn’t like my hall and thou. I didn’t like my home life. And so I was at a point where I didn’t like what was going on at school I had friends as popular people like me a lot of Skeeter’s so we were all kind of outcasts. You know you find each other. We’re going to have if you’re a loner you at least had to fight. They’re loners. You don’t know let’s all be a group of people who are reviled.

[00:27:05] But yeah he’s looking for a community however they can find community. Yeah. So however there was a guy who moved into our kingdom hall Steve. A I would just call him he was probably the greatest influence in my life. He was the person who I would say kept me in the organization. I saw his example. I saw his. He was the first person who showed me that there is another way of anything. How to be how to act how did you know what a joke how to have fun. He made service fun. And I felt like that was a huge part. Before you can have a lot of the people you’re going to talk to you just have to have fun being now and other he moved to my hall and he went with a few blocks away. And this was in his mid 20s at the time I’m late 20s possibly. And he played guitar. I want to play guitar. He taught me how to play music and I love it. He had a skateboard. He wasn’t as good as me but you know you don’t see anyone else in the congregation who you with. Consider an adult having this type of toy. So he really made an impact on me being that he only lived like five houses away or blocks away I could just go and do I didn’t want to hear how my mom and her new husband. And I’d say hey let’s go over to Steve’s. So we just up and go.

[00:28:25] And that was like a refuge a home away from home big brother who at this time a real pleasantly big brother had been discipleship as well as my older sister so for being as far as kids who were around when my mom was remarried the second time to Kenny was it was mostly myself and my younger brother Donna and my nephew Zach. There’s too much story here. I don’t know where to go I have to go back. I missed a very important point. Okay glad. The reason my nephew Zach lived with us. Yeah it wasn’t that kind of jumped out at me. Yes my sister who obey and not abandon it ran away from home when we were young kids and I never really knew her. She lived a hard life on the streets and in 1994 she got in contact with my mom again from her pattern of life she had picked up HIV and that she was going to harm. I think we reached out because she realized for her it’s probably in line. So she moves back up to me and I saw that I get to meet the sister finally who is just. She was a really great influence on me. She could really help me. He was worldly as all get out but she really helped me. From a standpoint of my what I liked she was into what I was into and she wanted something for me that was what I wanted for me not just like whoa I want you to do this because that’s what I want for you. She kind of was whereas people who liked your spread your wings and that will fulfill you. So it’s really good to have that balance.

[00:30:12] But she moved first and then made way for her husband and two adoptive daughters that were his come up from Houston Texas after I got to meet her and the girls came. Then lastly the husband came and they lived in our little town for a while. And they were in the drugs and some very unsavory characters were always lurking around and eventually it ended in a murder where he killed her and my mom ended up taking in the two daughters who were at his adaptively and they at that point had one kid my nephew Zach wholely. So yeah. You know the three of them are not get the four of us and then three more come on board the two girls eventually a lot of thing came about where they were my mom wasn’t able to give them what they needed. And being is she kind of turned them over to the state because was too much they and all by herself having seven kids and these grandkids now living with you being that Zach was the only one really that was my sisters. At no state are you there. And then my mom got remarried eventually after that. So. Gotcha gotcha. Hear you cut you cut in a little bit cut in and out a little bit. The signal seemed to go or something but. So sure. I think I don’t want to say I like but I’m going to say it. I like that. You know this story has so much to it that you just kind of glossed over the fact that your sister was killed by her husband.

[00:32:02] I mean wow that is you know like like you it’s it’s so so much of a story here that I mean that alone is enough. I mean what I know you know I can’t speak for you but you know what kind of impact did it have on you. You know you know that your sister was killed. I mean it seemed like she she had come back. You know you finally get to meet this person in your life. Yeah. You know she’s having an impact on you a positive impact in this horrific thing happens. You know how was it. How did that impact you the way you felt. How did that. How was that viewed in the congregation you know because I know how witnesses can be about things where they were they comforting and supportive or everything. Well you know she just deserved got what she deserved. It’s a weird situation because when she came back in her life in 94 at first it was just her. And then when you rifled through someone and you know them like the same photos that you have of them and you just look at the same photos. This is my sister this my sister this Mrs. And then they come and they meet you and they smile like your other sister and they’re animate in the flesh in front of you. It’s like the scary thing is though all of that happened. I don’t mean to sound like I had glossed over it but that happened. I met her 94 and she was murdered in 96 when I was 10 to 12. So there was like it’s like more of a memory of a dream. Yeah.

[00:33:46] In my life where someone just kind of came and made a huge impact and slid it on. And I feel like it’s it’s the craziest thing to think about that I could have you know. And you know I would say don’t forget but it seems so brief. You have to remind yourself now because like the two daughters after the situation live with us remember Robert caravan all of us down to when she was beating Kenny. But then when they got married it just struck me that other girls weren’t there because they had kind of gone to foster care homes to the state’s care. My mom just kept my nephew Zach. And oh yeah it’s just it’s just very weird to remember that when this happened. And those memories they never got to be around him when they were actually married together I think that was like my memory is very jumbled in a lot of this. I mean I think since you were so there’s a lot you’re so young. You don’t do birthdays still like timelines are hard to keep. I was very in survival mode. Like I remember I just remember being maybe middle child syndrome or whatever you want to call it that like I always felt like. I remember once telling my mom called my older sister I don’t know and she ran away. So that makes you think Julie my my immediate oldest members remaining sister who I did know is only a girl after Rubin. He is now the oldest to. Will have to wait. He’s like the all male the housemen Jonas the baby and here I am in the middle like it was this you just entertain yourself.

[00:35:21] You feel you fall into yourself and you start finding like I don’t know you know how kids are I guess where they find their own. You make do with what you have and if you feel like your parents up against a lot. I knew my mom was part of the thing. I could do to help her was just not worth it be invisible. But I had a lot of humor and I was the glue that kept her work together. But I also was very good at trying not to ask for help or ask for needing anything. And that was that was part of my what I can do is you know does it make. Yeah I don’t make waves. I help heal and then they receive back and say you know there’s me you make jokes you make people laugh and I hear a conflict. So try and do what I could. But it’s it’s it’s a lot of demographic in any any family or household. Yeah. I mean what you’ve told me already is a lot of story in that there were just there are a lot of characters moving in and out of the story and there are a lot of there’s a lot of transition and there’s a lot of heavy stuff. And I think you know when it’s your life. You know I just kind of normal like I mean I know when I told my own story on my pug podcast there was something about when I actually you know I never really thought about it it was just my life and whatever.

[00:36:58] When I sat down and was actually writing some of it out and I was standing there for hours speaking about it you know just kind of hit me you know if somebody else had told me that story my own story would have probably given them a lot more compassion than I’d ever give in myself for it you know. And you know you have a lot in your story you know to this is a there is a lot of moving parts and you know you could just take this part of it or that part of it and segmented it off and it would have been it would have been tough. And you know when you add it all together. You know of course you were just trying to survive. Of course you were. I think I used the term dissociating earlier. You know I think part of being invisible is just kind of dissociating us and you know there’s a lot going on here and I’m just going to kinda be in my own little world and do my thing. You know occasionally I’ll pop in and try to make people happy or try to lighten you know a heavy mood. And it’s it’s a lot to carry. You know when you think back to a 10 12 year old kid you know that’s that’s a lot. So I’m just saying that you know you know of course you don’t remember all of these things of course you’re not going to remember the Tom lines man you had a lot going on. Yeah. You know that’s a lot. Yeah. It’s I don’t apologize for calling tangental let me come across. I always will.

[00:38:41] No no no apologies no apologies you’re presenting this in a very logical link. I’m about to say like one of those points from the theocratic Ministry School a logical coherent development. Now I have to edit my blood. But yeah like you know what you’re saying you’re telling it a very logical way. Man you just got it’s just you’ve got a lot going on there. And you know I guess what I’m kind of telling you is you know from an outsider’s perspective you have some has some compassion for yourself. You know you went through a lot. This is a lot of stuff for. You know we’re just up to here. You know you’re young adulthood I guess. You know it’s a lot of things for you to have had to deal with so you know don’t don’t be hard on yourself for how it’s presented yourself on the back for even being able to present that this well you know it’s there’s a lot of things here. And you should be commended for being able to create a cohesive story out of it and make something there. Well thank you. I do take I don’t know I take credit for it but I also feel like how can I not have a handle on things that happen to me and you know. So there’s some stuff that is like I know when I talk to my mothers sisters and they fill in things I’m like oh yeah. And so for what it’s worth I think I’m doing good Deshi remember as much as I do. I’m sure all the gaps are filled in I don’t know. It’d be just too much to even utter out loud.

[00:40:33] I just don’t know if someone else was telling me this story. I would look at them and say well you know it’s ridiculous. If this note you take that out take this out take this out and it still sounds like some Hollywood script that’s just too fantastical to ever be real but I went through it. It’s the it’s real. You’re not the only person who’s you know there’s a podcast I like to listen to. I mentioned on my podcast called The Mental Illness Happy Hour. And on it people tell their stories. And you’re not alone man like you know obviously hers has unique qualities we have the Colts of Jehovah’s Witnesses in it. But you’re not alone. There are so many people that go through so much and I don’t know. I just think you know. Good for you for you know being strong enough to make it through all that and whatever you can remember of it of course you can’t remember all of it. Nobody can we all. All of us can go back and get things you know filled in. But you know you should. Don’t. Don’t worry about how this is all coming off. Because I’ll tell you now this is coming off very well at least you know know from an outsider’s perspective. And it’s just it’s just a lot and you know. I know you just mentioned Steve so like I was a I’m sorry the. So so you know you’re just getting to that segment of your life so you know how did how did all that start to you know. I think I derailed you a little bit.

[00:42:24] Oh that’s good though. Oh I do. I do want to ask though you know how did the congregation react about your sister were they do they do what I assume. Well it’s this will leave you may be gutted to know and I don’t know the validity of it’s true or not but I wouldn’t put it past anyone. Once word got out that my sister had returned and she had wild piercings and tattoos and had lived basically just the street life she told her stories about getting to Texas was like I had to jump on a moving semis that I got into because it was obvious this guy is a creep you know like there were stories that were circulating around the hall someone came up to my sister was on some medication it wasn’t yet AIDS but it was HIV and she was taking a medication that was experimental and she would get sick occasionally. And like I know that she would get sick but there were some sisters in the hall who said that oh she was in there and we heard puking and then when we went in and looked there was a massive storm. We had to clean it up and we shouldn’t have to be the ones to clean up HIV over sickness or whatever. This is not a hospital where she is that kind of care she should stay home. They didn’t. It was not welcoming. So again a flip flop happened with my mom and sister we’re going up to Park Rapids with us and this is going to blow your mind because eventually the girls do get there.

[00:43:51] And so now it’s the four kids or five kids and my sister being reunited and then her two girls and there we were crammed in this car. I remember sitting on people’s laps like driving up to 45 minutes late. There was one that was a blizzard and it was so bad my mom was like couldn’t see the road. But my sister Kelly said she was going to just look out the window. She’s a artist I can see. And she was literally like voice guiding my mom like okay I can see the white light with her head out the window in the blizzard Amber thinking like just how happy I was that Kelly was here and she was being so heroic that we were all get home safely. And a 45 minute drive which lasted about an hour and a half and it was just like I remember things like that crammed into people’s laps and it was a new struggle and all that and I felt like now it’s really starting to get into me that the the elders and Dina and the sisters who they made this story up like I know my sister was sick and had her problems. And that would have been a bad thing if it was true. But she was also deeply embarrassed about her condition. Wouldn’t let us wash our clothes in with her load wouldn’t let us use her like toenail clippers and stuff like that. Like just very like she there’s no way she would have left a mess for somewhere else to clean up. Data just there. Yeah. They didn’t want her there. They didn’t like her there.

[00:45:21] They felt like they didn’t like my mom anyway and now they have just this old guard more like can’t we just have a normal day like I think is their approach and we want to park rapids and how much more loving reception rather than the people who have just known me or my family for 30 plus years. Said these guys were welcoming every time and they were happy to have Kelly even if they viewed it as her final days. Not knowing a murder would happen but just because she was sick with this thing ever felt like that made me feel much more spurned against the local connotation and like I did not have any warm fuzzy thinking about Wadena at that time. However that was that was how it went. My sister anyway. I preferred the northern migration just because she was the greatest and they were accepting of her. Did they show up. You know I don’t know if there was a memorial or a funeral or whatever the situation may have been. Did they you know show up and show support for you guys. They did they absolutely did. Once the death happened they came out and I think that has a way of just releasing anything even negative feelings you may feel justified in having her. And I feel like whatever the situation was they did come out in droves from her mom’s support. Good good.

[00:46:43] Yeah that’s that’s one of those instances where you can actually I mean as long as they were just doing it you know to be a good witness which some people do out of a sense of duty you know but that’s a place in life where you can start to see people’s humanity come out again. Yes. Yeah. You know that was really good. It was funny though to like just another tangent you don’t have to keep this up but my sister had such an impact on me simply in the way of life that she wanted me to experience days. And I remember having no agency or no voice as a young little child. I was just kind of part of the rank and file that operate in a household. We used to go to the video store and I would stare and stare and stare at like the Star Wars cover. I thought No Luke on the cover with his lightsaber just looks so awesome that I somehow a 10 year old earned a buck. I got a dollar and I went rented it without anyone’s permission. I just stared so long I couldn’t wait until I saw this movie. And I came home with it. My mom said well that’s that Star Wars. She was brought in at an era when that was popular and they would mention it from the platform. What is this ominous force. You know and so the measure is so she says no way not my house makes me take it back and feel ashamed. I just like the lady at the counter look at me just like you already. And I just remember like wanting to die and cry. I just slid it over and I said No I don’t need anymore. And I would never get my dollar back. I just had to return it. And then my sister had went to bat for me while I was gone.

[00:48:23] You know in this movie she had talked to my mom and said lives you know and you know she ran away and done what she wanted before she went Stockhausen’s and there’s nothing weird about it. There’s no guards there like demons. It’s just it’s just part of the sex fantasy sci fi thing you know. So then my mom softened a little under the. And I just remember like that was like the first time I can really really remember someone going to bat for me and saying you know my sister stood up and somehow they. I think the money just came from one of them now feeling bad but we went. We watched Star Wars and that was like a really off Emmy 10 year old boy. Right. That’s a big of life just watching hours on the left. But that my sister who I just met recently took a special interest in like stood up for me to enjoy this movie and then we loved them. Now we’re like one of my favorite things anyway. Yeah. That’s awesome man. Good for her and I’m sure it felt good for you to. It is really funny to talk about my sister I think about her because like for someone who just he basically came through your life so transiently me and only me had threatened to do these like two or three things that they were things that meant so much to me.

[00:49:39] It’s really like it just speaks to my heart my soul that she she came in touch stroke my face it will have the impact she had and then was gone but it was so like landmark moments in my life that would become like that love of Star Wars and like that laid the groundwork for when I met Steve he’s a star wars fan and he’s got the Lord of the Rings books which I don’t even want to read because there’s this word Lord and. And then slowly though you start to gain will be experienced through him running away and Steve was from New York so he experienced a much more than whatever. And these were the things that spoke to me was that I didn’t have to grow up get a pickup truck and just hunt deer. My whole life you know would be like this would the rural Minnesota if it’s not ice fishing and hunting it’s like where do you fit in. And I didn’t know that spoke to me. But that was the area I lived in and I didn’t know if it was because it who I really am. Or is it just because my dad wasn’t around so I never had that much male influence that says let’s get some guns and go Hunter you know kill stuff and I just felt like I don’t know if I am my more feminine maybe because my mom was always me and so I don’t have the machismo side or is it like. It’s not necessarily a feminist view a distorted view of masculinity that I’m sure you have been a sensitive guy. I didn’t know they could exist yet. My wife yeah. Every guy was supposed to never cry. Oh yeah. You know you have a firm handshake. I totally understand that.

[00:51:23] And there are segments of male society that I do not fit in because I’m not a guy who’s great with you know I’m not a hunter item. I’m in the same boat in a lot of ways you know. So I totally understand. And I think it’s the synchronicity of you know here. Yeah. Your sister floats into your life and has this impact and now you know here you are later in life and you know you need you need another Kelly. And in here Steve you know yeah Stephen A. And he’s there for you. Yeah and they both allowed me to be like listening to my heart and sensitive soul if that’s what was calling to me that was speaking to me for a reason if the star wars it was. See you play guitar. I want to play guitar. You know you had a rule ball kind of where he was a very spiritual. He moved to our congregation to help out. Yeah he had moved out from New York to help in a nearby area. But he felt like on this area things are good but I’m not doing all I want to go where they really need me. So we asked the CEO and the CEO said well after all that’s happened to Wadena you know there’s a bunch of young ones there. There’s a lot of confusion in this little direction there’s no good influences. Go to Wadena. So then he came to Agena and instead of being there is like anyone who would just be there to patch up work and obligatory this is the task I’ve give and so he was really kind.

[00:52:57] I remember hanging over his house and I just loved him and laugh at stuff that I had never heard people laugh at. He was like a sensitive soul. And he was different. He was different kind and nonjudgmental he didn’t know about my family or care about my family’s past like that meant anything about me. But I remember there was a time where someone had called on the phone we were over at his house hanging out. And that was like just get away because we do want to be near my mom and my stepdad Kenny at the time so we just would go Steve’s. And he left for a long time after school. He would come home from work. Oh yeah he was that kind of open door where it was really cool guy. And I remember we were hanging out though and he got off the phone and said I hate you guys this but that was some other people in the congregation that were more his age and he said they had players I forgot about hang out and then I know we were doing this but they have asked that you guys not be there you know. And I remember feeling like Redsox on those people who call and it took our evening away. They suck but more importantly like I was pretty used to it at this point of people thing you know basically scrambling for the kids table you know the adults are going to play now. But I wasn’t used to anyone having that level of compassion like you saw pain. He hated having to tell us that he even though he thought that the nights over there you know you didn’t.

[00:54:26] I just missed this guy cares and that was like a really big thing is to have someone just like to be around you. He like it either. Yeah yeah I’m here. Yeah. So anyway he just he just liked us and that was like the first person you know in this hall a long time that I felt like like to be around us and it just had to do it because all spiritually I can’t judge this person. Well yeah I mean you all have been down off the right word as pariah but do you all know the way your family moved around and you know all the stuff that was surrounding it. I mean it’s unfortunate but Jehovah’s Witnesses can be very hateful. And clicky and you know to go around feeling like you never fit in. As I experienced it as an adult when I was younger I did fit in. I was kind of like the oldest one and I guess I was the ring leader of our group at the hall or whatever. But you know when I was older and left that congregation and moved elsewhere I never fit in. And and it’s a very lonely place too. I think one of the loneliest feelings in the world is not to actually be truly alone but to be in a crowd of people and know that nobody there has your back or any interest in you. And so I understand what you’re saying there it’s very important to feel like you know somebody wants you to instead of. Yeah. And he was at that perfect bridge where he was a cool guy.

[00:56:12] So he was cool enough to get the young ones. Yeah but he was like he like me and he was an adult and he wanted to be around us just like I could go on and on about him and the impact he had but basically really continued the word that my sister had laid into the books I read the music I listened to all the things like universal he just he was a father figure when I hated my stepdad and I didn’t really know my real dad and he with a brother or my other brother was disfellowshipped and he was just everything and I meant a lot at that point my life. Now you did. MARTIN He was leader. He did it. I could go on about him but I should probably just wrap it up because it simply he was the best ever. He did everything for me. Yeah no that’s that’s beautiful that he showed up at that time and it could be that for you. I mean obviously he made a huge impact and I know man that’s just that that’s just a beautiful thing. It’s an it’s a shame that ultimately you know cults come in the way of things but good for him for being that person for you. You know when you needed it. And for for being that’s in it kind of it’s beautiful that he was that person. But doesn’t it also kind of almost in a way condemn everyone else on a level you know here a guy had a move there from somewhere else so that you could find one person you know. Yeah I never thought about it from that angle.

[00:58:01] I just knew that I was lucky to have him here at that point at that point in my life. I felt like George had given me that big brother no father. All those things that were being taken from Jesus by other brother was disfellowshipped and it was just so obvious his hand was in the matter. And even still a lot of good in me. And you missed the what I call mislike for whatever that’s worth. Well I think it’s cool but he put that as such a part of me wanted to be around him more than anything or anyone else in the world at that time. And it was like I was finding my place. The longer I stood near him I was finding my place and fitting more and more into what I call just like those whether he was in a lot of ways the laws that were just written across my heart like bull. This is this is something that’s written in my core. And I love that I can express it. I just didn’t know how I was going to say you know he didn’t he didn’t make you you. He just showed you that it was OK to be you. Yeah yeah. It showed me that there was a different way. It was okay to be yourself and seeing him as my personal miracle like that God put my life as a witness that everything really was probably a touchstone thing. I would say kept me in the organization. Now I had experienced something that I felt was miraculous and I was thankful for. And he was doing it and he was cool as all get out.

[00:59:40] And then when he got married I remember at that time he was you know starting to date this girl and I don’t think they were dating yet even. But it was a very charming story. But anyway long story short she was at our house and so was this Steve be from New York who came out to visit him in his new Minnesota sort of set up. Steve is visiting Steve a who’s already the greatest influence in my life and I get to meet the other person from New York. And then this girl’s coming over she’s visiting and Steve and her you know they just we’re talking like I was kind of cognizant of that you know feeling OK it might be something. Here she was from another Croatian village 60 miles away. But there was a time when she was going to leave and was rather late at night at 10 o’clock or whatever she still had our drive she goes out to her car. We think she’s gone. And then it comes back and says My car won’t start. And Steve just jumps up. All I’ll take you. And is that we are happy in the car. Eve is driving in the front seat with his girl he’s interested now in the middle seat was this guy who was traveling with Steve B at the time and came out from New York as well who were staying with her. There’s a breathalyzer and he was sleeping in the middle seat.

[01:00:59] And then Steve and I were in the back talking and I noticed that Steve had put him in the girl in the front were talking with their heads rather close and I could just see and see Steve and we start talking. There was a score between these two as well. Look at that are this close and have you noticed they’re talking about you and I like having to show it to whisper Steve’s got the music faded to the back so we can’t hear it. They have some up there late in the backseat of the van which was like his work van. You know he was a window washer as well. So that like he gave me the music that I play the books that I read and I became writer of my own music like he did and recorded an hour when he got married. He said Well I’ve got this you when they were currently building up to you or take over. And so I became a window washer as well and like a lot of my life is like just had his fingerprints are over who I am even if it was just him allowing me to be yo and then at that point I saw it as another miracle that here now on the very evening that they were having their long convert conversation that he had been taking her tell her that she had to work the next day so he was going to drive an hour out of the way an hour back just to give this girl a ride.

[01:02:16] And Steve and I were talking the actually all the while you know Weezer music a little too out and it was just like oh I’m not losing Steve I’m gaining this other Steve is now my spiritual Big Brother so I’ve really getting it cemented that Joe was not going to leave me destitute and having this this pattern of always being provided a spiritual Big Brother if you will is starting to really cement my mindset that I want to be a witness and be in this you know witness thing forever. And it was kind of when I went to New York with Steve be the first time with my brother Jonah we were out there and this is 82 and just after 9/11 too. So the city was a little different he said and there was more unity after the attack. Of course people tried to feel neighborly and compassion more so. But I feel like I would look at people and they tell me don’t look at it from the eyes and look at people. That’s just how I was being a Midwestern Minnesota boy. I would not say hello and they would start responding back on the subway. I started talking to this guy next to me and you know I am German in high school and he ended up working at some old German TV station out of New York and we started speaking German. And it was Steve B and his sister who really like saw this and I like these that you can go anywhere and there’s something just innocent and boyish charm about your persona that you can get people to open up. You can just they’re drawn to you. They want to talk to you like you’ve got a gift here where you want a gift of gab or whatever they were like they really were the first people that told me you need the pioneer.

[01:03:58] That was Steve was a pioneer and these people seeing the Minnesotan out of his setting in New York is still like drawing people who are normally closed art and don’t talk to each other on subways like that. Maybe they’re right so I might as well give this pioneering thing a shot. And it was just really kind of cementing me in cementing in that it’s going on so then so you’re on 18. Did you go back to Minnesota and pioneer. No I was baptized at 18 actually. Just like a month before Steve a marriage and then from the marriage Steve he gave the wedding talk. Now like the married couple went off and did their married life began. And from that get go. We had our bags packed. You just go with the baby. My brother and I write to New York. So I had only been about taste about a month but they were quickly shaping my goals for me gives me saying that you know you need to pioneer. Look at this child and something oh yeah I did that first month. But you know why not. You know maybe that is what they wanted. I’ll try it if nothing else. So I got back to Minnesota I was just like a week long visit in New York when I got back to Minnesota. I remember mentioning to my elders they started as they can auxillary did that for a while to make sure I could do it. And they had said Do it for a couple months and see if you still want to be a window washer. I had that like perfect employment where you can make your own hours and go on servers if you wanted.

[01:05:39] I had two roommates who were also oh by this point to my mom and Kenny decided they wanted a fresh start out of Wadena. So they moved away when I was 18 going on 19. Right around this time they. They got out like they went to Sioux Falls South Dakota and in an odd turn of events I stayed back so my family left me 15 rather then I moved out on my own right dating within a that I got I got a good thing got you at the window gave. I’m trying to start my own business in China. Get pioneering and I’m going to help this carrageenan. We just lost Steve a I’m gonna stay here and help out my roommates were like no other guys in the congregation obviously and my mom with her husband my stepdad Kenny my brother Jonah my nephew Zach all went to Sioux Falls South Dakota and I just decided I would stay behind I liked within and had the right goal for me so I was going to see it out rather than go with them. So then where are you where do you go from there. You know you’re not alone in this new Plaisir you’re pioneering living this you know bachelor life washing windows you got roommates and you know where did you go from there. Well my roommates actually the interesting thing was they said I could move in with them because the other roommate who was the original third was off at ministerial training school so he would be gone for three years.

[01:07:18] And so they just said well we’ve got space enough and he still had the room but they let me have like a guitar in the corner in a total full of clothes. Every day I would fall about my stuff and put it off in the corner again. And then all my other clothes were still in the garage because the garage was good enough for storage. I had only ever had one room everything I own fit one room in my house any way previous. So I just put around the garage and I remember like getting dressed for service in those early mornings where in the winter dress shirt was like so-called on your skin when you get the Santa Clause. And I would run out. I eventually learned that I should run out grab my suit out of the garage bring them into the house if they’re in the steamy room of the shower with me like they’ll warm up and then it’s not so bad getting dressed. You know the fact remains we got a place of our own. And the guy from ministerial services school he came back and said also you’re here now. And it just kind of worked out where they are you know they knew I was like a young entering manhood trying to do it through pioneering and so they made a lot of allowances for that. It wasn’t like an established business owner. GOODWYN Nawabshah yet but when you got those types of guys in I think my rant was that 120 POCs or something so I didn’t need a whole lot. I was just going about it Virgin I’ve got from there. Now that I no longer have you know mom breathing over my shoulder your parents are adults.

[01:08:47] When you’re a young person trying to spread my wings a little bit Steve and his wife Steve a they moved about an hour and a half away and I still would make regular visits to go visit them. And I started to take an interest in one of the girls in that congregation. And I remember the elders had warned me about this on this dating thing if you’re going to I was 19 but they were thinking it was too young and that I wasn’t ready yet that she wasn’t ready and they were right. And probably every count. But I was young I was 19 and I was ready to where I want to. And there is no one around to tell me I couldn’t anymore. So I had to place my own I had roommates. I was finding out about adulthood in everything and I started this relationship in the with us being young. We never got in serious trouble. But you know we either I ended up being removed as a pioneer so I never made that actual benchmark of getting the secret book you get for being a pioneer for one year. Yeah which made me dramatically sad because if you like took all my separate attempts to pioneer I would like well over a year consecutively so I figured I still don’t get the book and anyway so not that she distracted me. But I was young trying to find out what I wanted and didn’t really know which leads to you learning the truth. The authorization I should say they all they accepted it because they give you the space to make your mistakes.

[01:10:31] But then as we all know with eye witnesses when the relationship it working again at work. I was you know removed as a pioneer or whatever it is it just wasn’t exemplary. They are all these people who are in their nice you know like what is called passive aggressive like very Minnesotan way to just say well we never liked her we know we told just so like very I’m thinking Well where was all this information when you know. I don’t know if that’s a credit or a disservice to them but it’s one of those things where it’s true that one could save me from it or at least you let me learn it myself. I probably wouldn’t have listened. You never know what the right course is but sure. Anyway I had made some stumbles and falls and got myself removed as a pioneer. I remember the feeling of when I just went back to a pioneer instead of like this is what really touched me from Jennies episode was that simply being oh god fearing loving member of the congregation feels worthless. If you’ve ever been even a step above that you’ve gone out and you’ve come back to just rank and file it is like all you can imagine is you raise your hand to comment and people you think everyone’s just like. What’s wrong with him since the why is he not pioneering. What will he ever get back into it. It’s like you just feel like the pressure of do more do more do more and if you’ve done more of quit than never like Oh thank you so much for your service.

[01:12:01] We really appreciate the sacrifice there just like also at one point you were able to but now you’re not. What can you change to get back to that point. It’s like there’s never a thank you. No no thank you for your service. So then so I’m not trying to rush you but I do have somewhere to be at 2:00. OK. I don’t want to leave anything out from your story. Where where should we go next. You know you start pioneering again. No. Eventually I after being removed as a pioneer and struggling with some things and trying to navigate the waters of like life on my own. You know I had a job I was I also had a part time job at Target Johns and I was trying to build the windows up as it was doing both if I could. Then you just kind of you’re young and you’re just learning. And then I started to you know have pitfalls of elders would come and talk me more and more and you know the blinds would go down and you can’t go back to the situation right now. It was it was never like I was a good kid but I was I was struggling. My my friends were out everywhere else. My mom was somewhere else and everything else. And I was just trying to learn on my own and it wasn’t doings anything horrible I felt. But I just I felt horrible about some of the things I had done and they were largely minuscule.

[01:13:38] But anyway long story short I got to a point where I had said kind of within myself you know I had a couple of like worldly girls where we were kissing and such and I had some contact with other people who give you that. After my first relationship didn’t go well. I just remember getting in trouble being frustrated myself that why what’s wrong with me why can’t I get my act together in our lives. I’m very like girls are all I think about and I never never felt like there is anyone for me necessarily around in my area. Every knew my story from the previous one and there was a couple of good I was friends with a lot of girls too. And in my local corrugation there was one girl. But she was quite young for me at that point and I just felt like know I’m not going to ask anyone to eat for me like I’m. No I just I was a lost young man who in 2000 and 3 my dad died down there and we might have to do part one part two and you can salvage whatever audio is missing. Yes you are going to have Connally’s tourism in 2003 your dad died. How were you then. I was 19. That was like right around the time where after my first relationship ended. Even my ex she was like well I’m sorry about your dad. When she reached out to me at a start he’s don’t be a thing that you want to start up again because you’re showing compassion. It’s going to be this art again off again relationship. I don’t want to go through that with you again. And you know like just that and it was one of things where my mom had always been my life saving grace.

[01:15:25] I just loved it to death I took her side on every single thing in the world. I didn’t want to know my dad. I didn’t. I thought of him as what she thought of him as what I thought of him. I was only taught to I was only told things about him from her and people would see stories from within a Kingdom Hall they would say oh well we know your daddy is not the way your mom makes it sound and I’d be like right away like you guys know I’ve died. Believe me I’m well aware of how you think of my family. You’re on his side. Just discredit anything good they ever had to say about him. And then when he died I just remember sitting at his funeral and I this is so crazy so I’m forgetting so much more than going backwards. He after he was divorced from my mom got remarried wife gets a starship. He doesn’t initially elders who let him off the hook. They all get removed new Elder group meets with him. He is disfellowshipped. He comes back after a long time and when he comes back after a little bit of time he starts to say he’s anointed what really set my mom off that he thinks he’s wife. Yeah. So he starts the season knowing dead and he knew it because like something went with blood sausage when he was a kid and I don’t even know if that’s the real story or just my mom trying to make it seem so frivolous that it had no grounds and so now I see my dad as this like crazy.

[01:16:48] You know I don’t want anything to do with him. And then he dies and I went to the funeral and I was mourning him and I got to meet a lot of uncles and people who I didn’t know and the divorce. First of all kept me from knowing his side of the family and the religion as well kept me from knowing instead families. I’ve got all these people caring about me and telling me about my last that I they look like familiar faces because we share blood but I have no idea. And it’s just awful. The feeling of loss. I remember not crying not crying except for when I looked at my nephew Zach thinking he doesn’t get there nor his grandpa and I was so sad for Zach not an actually that I had lost my dad or that I knew enough to miss something that was now lost but where it really hit me was when his widow called me and said Well your father has a bunch of things he wants you kids to have an remember from where I live out to Jamestown North Dakota. Seemed like a world away and we went to go pick up stuff from the widow. A friend of mine in the creation and die. We drove out there loaded the van and we drove back. It was just like I was so dumbfounded with. She had some good stories about him and he was her husband and I just remember thinking Well first of all you were supposed to be this vile woman that her mom hated and that wasn’t quite so. And now I’m starting to think everything else.

[01:18:09] Maybe maybe the guys who were friends with my dad maybe it wasn’t quite so either. Not that I disbelieve. But I see she comes from a totally different relationship with him than anybody else. Maybe add some Sturton to anyone there. I had been ETN for like a full year. The order for protection was done and he had been reinstated. There was no reason I couldn’t talk to him. I didn’t invite him to my baptism I didn’t write a Kargar or anything to him. Then I just feel like now he’s gone and it hit me like that already. It was two and a half hours away or something. I think the drive and I feel like just like you know that’s not the end of the world. Two and a half hours away when I had that graph and there was nothing to drive an hour and a half there vaccine night three hours. And I really felt like I had failed him as a son and I just don’t you know even if he was a jerk I should have taken the time to investigate and find out for myself why I really really beat myself up for saying I should have proven he was a jerk to me rather than just a doorway and with you and to man on the side. And now I can’t investigate it at all. To even have the investigation. I feel like I was just robbed of having a father. He hated it. You were you were you were robbed that. I would say that the word should is a slippery slope.

[01:19:30] And that you were just a kid and so you didn’t have the tools at the time you know if you were who you were who you are today maybe you would oh yeah you would have reacted differently. Yeah but you can’t. Again I think it comes back to that that thing the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach us that everything is in our control that that that everything comes down to choice and you know you can blame yourself and say well you know why don’t I do things differently. But there’s a there’s a great quote that really helped me with some things that I had regrets about and the quote is something like acceptance is letting go of the hope that it could have been any different and that quote meant a lot to me because in retrospect I can look at things and say oh man you know I could have done this or I should have done that. But accepting it for what it was I was doing my best at that time. You David were doing the best that you could have done at the time as a kid and I understand having some regrets and wishing it was different but it couldn’t have been different because you were a kid and you could have done better. I’ve been through lots of therapy ever since the last couple years especially counselling and I have forgiven myself. Is this still a hard thing to feel like now. You know I just don’t know whether to give myself away. And actually like are at whole or side no I don’t know you’re not like I don’t want to push anything or even preach to you from but from my experience my new found spirituality.

[01:21:33] I actually there’s a psychic who had called my wife landed up for this thing and I went in super skeptical going to you know all that stuff scared the life. Oh heck yeah. Yes. And she was like within a few minutes she’s a Christian psychic who talked to the Archangel Michael protecting me in clearing the area. Any negative energies. And then she starts starting. And my dad’s just like I give pounding on the door to get through to me. And I just it was like it was one of those things where I felt like an all you had to say was goodness. And she didn’t know the situation like it was legit to me just a spiritual experience where some saw had broken through and told her that my my. He was sorry he wasn’t there for me and he was here in this life on this earth. He was messed up he had a lot of issues. He had things he couldn’t control and he hated when he couldn’t control things and she said that all these things you were saying and it was so him and she asked me about like other stuff and I just thought this is a legitimate psychic like this is there’s I mean I’ve always been with those types who knock on the door on whether or not there’s a creator spirit around. But what we would say demons any demon to be uncanny thing that you can’t explain it away. And that just that there’s something higher energy whatever you want to call it the source of life was not a single person sitting and judging people for their sins.

[01:23:02] But I feel like oh my god this was this is what I wanted to hear and it was very healing. And it was so authentic and it was just really really part of and part of the healing process for me. I know my gay counselor she told me it’s not your fault you were a kid and you were equipped and if your mom was you know actively poisoning this person you know you were against this person. What else are you supposed to do. Right. Well it’s. No body is all good or all bad to her. And obviously your dad did have some issues. But that is that does not define him as a totality of his existence. And I’m glad that you got to have that experience. And I mean I think we all want. You know we all want to to end on a better note. And I’m glad that I’m really glad that you’ve been able to you know get into therapy and and process some of this stuff because I mean you’ve been through a lot of heavy stuff and I’m just I’m not I’m happy that you got. I’m glad that you can see that. And again it comes back to that. Intellectually you can see that you you couldn’t have done any better but emotionally you still have emotions about it. You know I mean when my dad died I cried not for the dad that I lost but for the dad that I never had. Yeah. Because my dad wasn’t always great. And I think that’s you know that’s it’s only natural to have those feelings.

[01:24:59] And you know you can always look in hindsight you can always figure out how it could have gone better but you didn’t have the tools. And he was the adult in that situation. You know he could have reached out differently as well. He has some he you could say you just as easily say that he has a responsibility in the way things went. But you know what he probably didn’t have the tools either. No no. You know he was a product of whatever environment he came from or whatever biology or psychology that he naturally had. And you know in the end everybody in those situations was doing the best they could. Your mom was doing her best. You were doing your best. He was doing his best and everybody was working with what they had. And unfortunately sometimes our best still hurts. Yeah. You know that’s very profound. You know that’s that’s just all you can that’s all you can do. You know sometimes you give your best and and you’re still going to end up hurt. I want to thank you for listening to David story today. Part 2 will be released next week in Please subscribe so that you can get it in all of these stories automatically as they’re released. Each time please also show David and other support by going to my Web site. It’s shunned podcast dot com and if you go to the episodes page there you can leave a comment for any of the people who are telling their story. They can not only read but they can also respond to your comments.

[01:26:45] So just go to shunnedpodcast.com and go to the episodes page and you’ll see an individual post for each story and you can reply and comments on those stories. You can also find links to things on there that have helped each person as they were waking up and leaving the cult if you want to hear my personal story. You can listen to a podcast called thisJ.W. life or go to the Web site thisjwlife.com. And that was my personal story. It’s a nine part series. And you can if you’re not familiar with the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses you can really learn a lot there about how they function what they teach. Alongside my personal story one final way to show support is to leave a review on iTunes just leaving a five star review leaving your personal comments whatever it is that impacted you. This helps other people to find the podcast so that they can get the help that they might need as well. So I’ll send this one out the way I send them all out love others do no harm and go be happy.

Caleb Is Shunned By Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:14] Welcome to the shunned podcast. Today we have the story of Caleb who took a stand and left the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses just 18 years of age. He’s a brave young man and he had to make very hard choices. So listen to his story and afterwork keep listening. I want to tell you what this young man is doing and how you can send him a message of support. Also there’s a special announcement after this story. So keep listening. My name is Caleb. I used to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I’m 19 and I am Sean I was born into the religion. I was baptized at 14 my parents my parents. My father was born in the religion as well. My mom got baptized at 16. She was related to some Jehovah’s Witnesses in the congregation. I was part of the Jersey Shore congregation in Pennsylvania. It’s kind of an odd name but for centralP.A. But yes she was related to some Jehovah’s Witnesses got studying and she got baptized A16. My dad was born in. And my grandfather and my grandmother were actually the ones that started kind of in our family. My grandfather he he was part of the Seabees battalion in Vietnam. He got sick he got drafted and then he decided to join. So he wouldn’t get put in as regular army infantry. So he went in as a construction worker and the Seabees battalion as a welder. I think I think he had gotten training before that to be a welder.

[00:02:09] But when he got back he was in California teaching firearms classes to soldiers. And then sometime after that he started working in the private sector I guess you could say. And he. One of his co-workers was a Joves witnesses and they kind of got started studying then it kind of went off to my grandmother it was kind of interesting. He said after that after he knew it was the truth he went out and he was telling other people. He worked with in the past about it. And it’s the truth. You got to get into it. Yeah. So they got they got into it and that kind of started my family to Joves witnesses while being a Joves witness. When you’re born and it’s your entire life. My mom you know as I said she got baptized when she was 16. She’d talk about when before that she went out with guys boys really when she was in middle school and elementary school and she had Christmas and everything. And she gave all that up when she was 16 obviously. But I didn’t know about that. So it really was nothing to me it but I took great pride in being one of Joe’s witnesses. When you are a Jehovah’s Witness it’s it’s kind of a contradiction in that it’s your entire world. But the organization is so small and you know it’s so small but you think they’re everywhere and that the world is is embracing are this giant force in the world. And so I I took great pride in being a Jehovah’s Witness and being a part of that force. And now our family the Tanners my last name is Tanner.

[00:03:53] They were well-known obviously in our congregation and the surrounding congregations but also on the circuit and even in the district we’re just well known as as being spiritual hardworking people we were tradespeople. You know we weren’t we weren’t business people or car dealers or anything on that level. But my grandfather was a welder. My dad is a welder. He teaches welding. So what I’m saying is we were all respected and my we all gave good talks. We were all just spiritual and we knew what we were doing. My grandfather he is an elder now he’s actually in the German congregation in centralP.A. He’s out preaching to Amish and whatnot but he was the service overseer. He was a lot of things probably life but he was the service overseer for a while in our creation. My dad was actually the Kobie the coordinator for quite some time after one of the other elders died. But yeah so they’re both respected elders. And so I was respected and I took great pride in that when I was Joe’s witness. I didn’t view the world as it is. It’s not black and white as I thought it was. It’s very complicated. I thought that every little natural disaster or everything that happened at theU.N. or between nations was due to this being near the end. Right. Every time every time someone got disfellowshipped or I heard about someone who I used to hang out with leaving you know I thought it was it was like a switch you know just OK. I’m not going to hang out with them anymore they’re obviously bad influence.

[00:05:44] And that also transferred to school when I was in elementary school. I actually told my friends at my friends at school that I couldn’t be friends with them because they weren’t going to be true friends like apparently the ones at the congregation were going to be isolated myself in middle school and high school not necessarily in interaction but in having deeper friendships. I didn’t really get to know the people I was around although I was out there with my friends and I’m connected to them now. The ones I had in highschool. But I definitely didn’t form deeper friendships with them. I wasn’t my best friend who’s my roommate now. I never I didn’t go to the movie theater even with him before I left. I wasn’t allowed. I tried to ask my parents but they wouldn’t even let me. I would get to know somebody to a certain point you know one of my peers but that wasn’t an end. That they would be limited to school. My school friend but when I left that area the person my best friend who was a Joves witness. His name is Trent. He was my friend outside of school. He was my best friend period. You know he’s the guy hang hung out with. He’s the guy I went to the movie theaters with or we went to. Kargi Asian football games or whatever he’s the guy I hung at his house by it when I was at school. You know those were kind of my school friends I can kind of push them off from being anything more than that. My childhood wasn’t bad.

[00:07:26] It was well I mean I thought it was normal. I knew it was I knew somewhat that it was different from the rest of the world. But it was a normal Jehovah’s Witness childhood. I thought but it wasn’t bad. I mean I can’t say I had a bad childhood. I had Lego’s. I had Transformers. I had everything I could dream of. Right. That’s all I needed. And if I had asked for one more thing Id be video games when I was a kid. But I mean other than that it was that it was I it was a good childhood. But like I said earlier I isolated myself in school from other kids. And when I was younger I mean I told kids that I couldn’t be friends with them so it wasn’t bad at home you know school I just salute the flag and whatnot at the meetings. I mean I was I had my first Bible reading at 8 age 8 I think and I was progressing you know I was when I left I was probably within the next year going to be a ministerial servant. So I was I was you know rapidly progressing and everybody like me I liked pretty much everybody. I didn’t have I didn’t have Christmas or 4th of July or whatever. And I mean something else. I didn’t. I guess you could say I didn’t know my family. My family was limited to my grandfather my grandmother who I’ve already brought up my mom and dad and my sister and that was pretty much it. I have an aunt who I know more now than I ever have.

[00:09:07] And I have an uncle on my mom’s side my aunts on my dad’s side. I have an uncle on my mom’s side that I know better than I ever have. You know but I didn’t know those sides of the family outside of Jehovah’s Witnesses. We’d go to family reunions. But it was they were like total strangers. And again I isolated myself I didn’t I talked to them but I didn’t you know go any deeper than that. Yeah. Eric never connected on any type of level. So I mean he could you could say that I suppose I suppose my car Ignatian people in my congregation became my family my entire social network. When I got to be about 12 although I was a Joves witness I’m still a normal boy. Right. So I started getting more into girls as I had puberty and I got into you know watching pornography and whatnot. And I felt totally guilty about doing that and eventually I got to start masturbating you know a little later on and that that was kind of the marking. If I look back at anything that was the mark of my teenage years because it’s totally it’s totally looked down upon. I mean anybody can look down on it but it’s like if you do this you’re not going to make it into paradise. You know if you keep doing this forever you’re you’re not going to get into paradise. And so I was always feeling guilty as a teenager because I was doing that I tried to quit. I tried to quit. I tried to quit.

[00:10:52] I even told my dad at one point and you know that helped for a while and then I got to the elders were asking me questions about baptism. And so I had three different sessions with the elders about going over the questions from my baptism and everything. And I was still doing it then you know I had a spurt there right before my baptism where I was doing all right. And after my baptism when I was doing all right. But then you know as soon as I had a relapse it was like overwhelming guilt. And I think that’s the one. Strike on my teenage years that I can really look back on and that would that would kind of play out somewhat before I leave you know up with how I live. My teenage years weren’t bad. I mean I as I got into high school peers other students they started to look at me a little better I could joke with a more. I was no longer picked on I was picked on a lot. In middle school. But yeah I was like the class clown I’m not the class clown in the yearbook but I was I should have claimed that title I mean come on. But definitely high school was a lot better than elementary or middle school. For me it was just a better time. But again overwhelming guilt over what I supposedly been doing wrong. I started to feel like I could never quit after I tried quitting so many times I actually got to the point where in my head I was like well I may not make it into paradise but maybe I can help somebody out in the ministry to get there.

[00:12:38] So yeah I was kind of like sacrificing myself in that way. And I had actually gone to the elders I filled out a regular pioneer application. Once I was well last September not just some tempera we just had the September before that I had filled out a regular pioneer application because that’s the beginning and there’s service here. And I just graduated and I couldn’t in my right mind tell them that I wasn’t having these problems you know. And so I actually told my dad again and you know trying to quit again. But I was almost a regular pioneer before I left. If it weren’t for that so I got my first job at 16. You know I’m like a normal being. There’s a brother there is a brother that we’re eating dinner with. And he said Yeah I’ve had a job all my life since I was 16 you know. Never have I not really had a job since I was 16. I was thinking I had you know I shall I be like him and get a job when I’m 16 and have a job. So I my first job was at 16 and I was working at a restaurant with a bunch other worldly guys. You know I was the only Joves went up there. I could joke the guys at work you know and they swore and they’d make dirty jokes and whatever was funny you know it was is fun to be around them. And it was hard work too. I worked in a restaurant where you moved you know you you did your job or you were gonna get yelled at.

[00:14:16] You don’t know bullshitting around home you know you hustle. And it was hard work. But we all still joke with each other and the only time I’d really gotten work done any kind of real work was at with my grandparents grandfather or with my dad or the Kaimal you know and so I could joke with these world guys and was fine. They didn’t. I didn’t have a significant impact on you know when I lean left or my decision to leave but it definitely changed something on how I viewed worldly people. In the summer of 2015 I was looking to complete for my school from my high school to graduate. At that time I had been a junior and in the fall there I was going to be a senior in high school. And I would have to complete a senior project. And so for my senior project I actually want to do something super easy that I would have to put very little work into. And that would not really affect much of my life. So I wanted to exhort pioneer. And so I filled out you know I did all the information for the school to apply for that. And I sat down with the principal and the vice principal and we talked about me auxillary pioneering how that would have some impact on the community how I could have some relation with the community in doing this because I was really a big focal point was our community interaction. And yes I talk with them and weighed the pros and cons they let me do it.

[00:16:03] And so over that summer I was able to exhibit a pioneer for two months I think it was July in August of 2015. I did that. And I actually Auxilio pioneered in my congregation jersey shore and also the Milton congregation. Miltonp.a And it’s funny cause I exalt pioneered with this this girl I won’t name her because she is out. This girl called Jen I exhilarate pioneered with Jen and we’re hitting it off like it was. It was awesome. We had a great time for those two months really pioneering together. She was done as well and she’d later leave she left to actually Jehovah’s Witnesses before I did. She’s a little younger than I am by 10. But yes I did that and that that’s kind of where I was at that point. I wanted to even in my school work. I wanted to incorporate Joe’s witnesses even on my senior project. I wanted to do that. And so come my senior year. That’s the mindset I was in my last year of high school. I got to figure out where I’m going what I’m going to do. I want to go to Bethel but I have two regular pioneer before I go to Beth. What am I going to do when I’m at Bethel. My my father and my mother. I think my mother still works there I’m sure. But they both work at a college in Williamsport Penn College. And so I could get free college. It wasn’t. It’s not. It was a trade school more than anything they wanted to be called a college. But my dad like I said he’s a welder. He teaches welding there at college.

[00:17:48] And so I wanted to get an associate’s degree in a trade which was not against the rules or even against file even against common thinking you know if you go for a trade if you go for a trade it’s all right. Right. But you go for something like Business Administration. That’s a little different. But if you go for a trade. Yeah that’s all right. So I was going to go for a two year degree in mechatronics which is like mechanical electrical electronic stuff that’s what I was going to do I decided that. And so going into my final year high school that’s kind of where I was headed. I knew what I was going to do and I wanted to get to Bethel. So that’s where I was at. Now there was a girl my at my school was very small. It was K through 12. Like 400 kids on campus at that time I was like 350 our classes are really small my class my graduating class was like 14 kids I think oh yeah I was the valedictorian but you know I didn’t get grades good enough to be a valedictorian in my opinion anyway. There is this girl really really pretty. Her name is Kaylee and she she started flirting with me. Kind of like the second half of the year second half of the school year which was crazy because you know I’m I’m nerdy Caleb over here. And so we started talking we’d snapchat each other and whatnot.

[00:19:21] You know after school and I’d kind of flirt back with her too because like I wasn’t going to have a relationship with her obviously but you know maybe I can I don’t know how as a guy you know out of my mind a Joves what this guy out of my mind you know I’ve kind of fought back a little bit. So we graduate I can skip to that we graduate. I present my senior project goes great I’m valedictorian. I give my speech at graduation. Yeah I can. I like telling people that yowes valedictory to my class. And then I just like to leave it there because my class was 14 kids some kind of leave and they can they can think of how many kids were my class on there. But yeah we we did that. And then my grandparents always want to take myself and my sister out to Wyoming and because that’s where they used to live that’s where my dad was born. He was born in I forget what hospital out there but they always went MIT to take us out there see Yellowstone visit some friends of theirs which I was talking about earlier. I’ll get into that. So we go on vacation was like four weeks we drive out to Wyoming and we see Yellowstone everything and we visit some friends of my grandparents out there a couple that my grandfather knew way back in the day before they were Jehovah’s Witnesses. And he actually got them to convert. And the husband actually doesn’t do anything about Joe’s witnesses anymore but the wife is like a regular pioneer she’s like in and but this entire time I’m talking to Caylee over snapchat. And we’re just talking to each other.

[00:21:03] But I’m a soldier I was 16 and I’m still I’m still you know wanting to do what’s right in their eyes and we get. And we’re out Wyoming and I just tell her if you’re not gonna be one of Joe’s witnesses out that’s why I was trying to do I was trying to convert her because I kind of wanted a relationship with her. And I just told her if you’re not going to be a Joe was nice I can’t keep talking to you anymore. And so we kind of cut things off but we got back from Wyoming and I started auxillary pioneering regularly. I had quit my job because I didn’t like it and I was going out Wyoming for four weeks and I just quit. And so we got back and I didn’t have a job for a few months I was running low on money so I got I went to work for a construction crew of Joves witnesses and I was working with them for a few months. And this is around probably around August. I started classes at Penn College for mechatronics and shoe. It was like residential electric and AC and whatever. It’s pretty fun doing all that but sometime around September October she gets in contact with me again Kaylee and we start talking a little bit more and eventually I come to the point where I’m like I really want to have a relationship with her and I got to figure out if this is the truth or not. So that’s kind of when that was kind of like the turning point I wasn’t going to give up the organization for her by it. I wasn’t.

[00:22:52] If the organization was not the truth I wasn’t going to give her up because of it. So so I decided to do more research. Basically I came to the point where I was like if this is the truth I’m a stick with it. If it’s not I’m going to stick with Caylee. That’s that’s the point I came to and I did my own research. And I remember sitting there late at night and all this is coming back to me now. I was sitting there in my bed. Door closed. I already knew the whole routine from years of looking up stuff I shouldn’t. And I was looking up videos on youtube of people examining the Bible and eventually I started watching religionvs. Evolution Debates and God versus evolution in debates. I had kind of make that made a pact with myself at the beginning that I wasn’t going to look up any apostate information from Joves witnesses. Right. So anything about Jehovah’s Witnesses I wanted to keep it to the Bible so that’s that’s kind of how I started my Exodus. You could say is because of her. And I grant her all that we’re not together anymore. But I kind of give her that in my life. She she turned my whole life around you know unbeknownst to her. I remember texting her some nights and just like freaking out because I’m finding that my entire life was a lie. You know it and just telling her that all this information I’m learning she’s nice. She may have not gotten a whole lot of it because I was just going off and often off and off just these long long ass text.

[00:24:39] But yeah it was just crazy time. And nobody knew. Nobody I knew I was going through this and I didn’t want them to know for a while it was all within a matter of weeks and it might have been fast tracked by Caylee’s influence their arm that I wanted to be with Caylee. It was within weeks actually within probably a week I knew it wasn’t the truth. But in weeks I made my decision that I no longer wanted to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. We were like four or five weeks. And I picked a day December 19th to tell my parents and my grandparents to my best friend Trent that I no longer wanted to be a Jehovah’s Witness. That was kind of the perfect day. College was out. So my parents college had just gotten out. My parents wouldn’t be busy and they could like take the next month and a half to kind of go through their is going to be a Joves witness anymore. Very quickly I decided not be a JOAs witness but those were kind of the early things December 19th rolls around and I’m scared as hell. I had told my grandparents I wanted to talk to them that night. I told my I told my mom early in the morning my plan was I was going to tell my parents. Then my grandparents and my best friend that night we’re gonna go out to see Star Wars Rogue One for the first time which is a great setting you know that you’re going to tell your best friend that you’re leaving the religion but that didn’t really work out.

[00:26:19] My dad was out cutting wood because we burned wood and he got real pissed off and as he does he gets angry a lot. And he came in the house all angry and sighs like Alright I’m not going to I’m not going to talk to you guys until late at night. And because I was going to talk to them that morning in the proper order. And so I figure out what time came around that I was going to go meet Tran. He was out in service is probably around three o’clock or something. I decide to get my grandparents tell my grandparents and go straight to my best friend. So I put bolt I put together this Manila packet full of information. You know everything I’d found right about the pyramids Noah’s Ark contradictions in the Bible. That’s about it. And I was going to give it to my friend Trent and I stuck it under the seat in my car. I told him I want to drive right. I went to night to be on my terms. I picked him up. We went to the movie theater saw Rogue One is pretty good but you know it’s kind of slow in the middle little bit. So you know we were friends right. Right up to the end right up till I told him we were friends and we were joking. Everything I was pretty calm about it but we the movie theater was Williams where we got in the car and he was like I told him at the beginning of the evening I want to tell you something very serious. I had done something like this before.

[00:27:48] You know I told him I want to tell you some don’t make me back out. So you knew what what to do. And so he was like OK what do you want to tell me. I was like How about we drive back up to the hall. His car was up there. And so we did. And I put it in park. The bad thing was which I didn’t really want to happen was he had to work that night so he would he wouldn’t have to go to work. After I told him this I really didn’t want that to happen but I just told him I said and you know this is very serious. I no longer want to be one of Joe’s witnesses and he kind of stopped trying. He’s I think right now he’s like 22 23. He’s a few years older than I am. He’s always been the person I looked up to. He’s always been my role model in life and. And he was asking me questions about it. You know very you start getting emotional. But he was asking me questions about and I pulled out a manila envelope and I said it then I said if you want to take that’s all I found right now if you want to take that take that with you. Look at things. That’s all your choice. And he declined. He wasn’t yet. And he started crying. He sat right there and cried in front of me. That mean I mean that’s fine. You know I tried to cry I’m not a crier but.

[00:29:17] Yeah he I told him all that I didn’t want to be a Jehovah’s Witness anymore. I’d been I’d been doing more research. And that’s just the conclusion I came to. And he cried. He told me Well I hope you get through this. I hope you change your mind. And he got out of the car. I called off work. He went home and he cried for another two hours. He still lived with his parents. And he told his parents everything he was with them for like another two hours crying over you know your best friend we’re brothers basically because every well every other guy in our congregation had left. Every every other boy around our age had left. And it was just us to you know it was very hard. After I pulled out I went to my grandparents and I sat down on my grandparents. We kind of bullshit it for a while and then I told them Well I’ve I’ve come to the conclusion I no longer want to be one of Joe’s witnesses and my grandfather is. I don’t look at it in the same now as I did. But he was like what. And he he just at the start asked me why why why do you feel this way and then he said it’s all it’s all one blur the whole night some blur or whatever conversations I had I had the same conversation pretty much three different times. It’s all a blur and he just said I would never give up my creator over you know whatever you found. And I didn’t. I didn’t present him with the information they’re both 70. I didn’t want to.

[00:30:57] I didn’t want to ruin the perfect life they built for themselves. I just want to say you know I’m out. I’ll tell you why if you want to know but I’m out. And that’s. That night December 19th is the last time my grandfather ever talked to me. And we were tight. We were sure we were. He was the other guy looked up to Trent and then my grandfather and he dropped me like a rock. He would pass me in the congregation. I still want to meetings after that for a little while. I’ll get into that but I had said passing in the Kingdom Hall and he passed right by me when I say a word and so that was really bad. My grandmother my grandmother the very next day or the day after the next day. Yeah. Because I told Mom one day and then the next evening was Tuesday we had our meeting. But she came up and she talked to us and everything. You know my grandfather didn’t. And so I went out to the car drove home. I had one more conversation get through. I told my parents that and we sat up I forget what time it was I know we went out to an early showing me and Trent because I had a lot to do that night. No surprise probably got home around 738 some like that.

[00:32:15] And we sat up till ten thirty probably a night talking about it and I was present my arguments and I pulled out my my envelope I still had and and showed him all the arguments we were looking up scriptures and everything as to as to what I’d found and whatever and they didn’t believe they believe anything I said you know my mom my mom for a good month and a half two months she thought there was something else up. She thought I did something else that may have made me want to leave. I wasn’t I wasn’t leaving because I knew it wasn’t the truth. You know I can leave for doctrinal Propp but um yeah. And so then we went to bed and I I can’t remember what the next day I did. I know I stayed up a little while I know I was up for a while that night but my at my parents were kind of like on their tippy toes you know they were kind of like touchy around me you know they were mad. They were just like you know there’s a problem that I can’t think of a term but they were cautious around me you know try not trying not to upset me or trip me or not. I wasn’t really pissed off or anything I just it was different after that. And so for the next month and a half or not a month and a half maybe the next month every week at least four or five times a week we me and my parents would stay up and I’d tell them I didn’t have a job at this point. I had quit with the construction company full of witnesses I was with because you know I knew I wouldn’t have a job there after I left. Um did I want to have that kind of conflict for them. So I had all the time in the world.

[00:34:04] I wasn’t pioneering anymore because you know that’s all up that’s all out the window. So all I was doing my dad downloaded watched our library which I still have on my laptop and all I did all day was watch debates and look up stuff on watched our library for weeks four weeks I did that and eventually I got into looking more in evolution. I really got into it and really got a better understanding of it so that I could argue and debate with people about it. But like I said earlier my friend Trent he went home and his dad was an elder a big a big wing arrogation and he called my dad. And Larry was his name. My dad’s name is James. Larry called my dad James and they Larry said he’d get another brother in the current station and they’d sit down they talk of me and so basically we picked a date and I went to the Kingdom Hall and we just talked everything I’d come up with you know a little more stuff that I’d come up with since I told everybody because I was doing so much research. Yeah this is this is probably around the end of December. I sat down with Larry and Monty in the congregation during our congregation library and we just talked about everything. I had looked up and there they were going through the normal routine that these two brothers they are not they’re not knowledgeable in evolution and stuff like that. They’re not trying to. Sorry not arguing with me. They were trying to help me come to a better understanding. And we’re looking at different scriptures and whatnot.

[00:35:54] Basically they didn’t convince me of anything. I told my mom I said if they convinced me. You know if they can change my thinking then that’s fine I’ll come back. But right now I’m like No I I don’t think this is the truth. And so I went and I went into those meetings with an open mind. The first meeting they didn’t really convinced me at all they said they’d do their own research and they’d come back and we had a second meeting. And that meeting got pretty heated because I that was probably like two weeks later I had been doing more research. Totally different subjects. Now I was really switch it up on and we had our second meeting and by the end of it they took away my kingdom Auchi which I had a key workingmen’s. They took that away and I bet they would have disfellowshipped me there. That’s how angry they were that we were yelling says you get pretty heated. But both of those meetings were about four hours long. Four and a half hours long. But again I had nothing better to do. This was on my break between semesters and I didn’t have a job. But then come the next semester next semester starts I have new classes and whatever. And I think Larry got in touch with a certain overseer or somebody did. And the circuit overseer he handpicked a brother from the circuit to kind of handle my case. His name’s Fred and he’s he’s pretty smart. He’s younger than the other guys. He’s probably about 55 or something. Somewhere around there a lot more knowledgeable.

[00:37:31] He’s done a lot more research on this kind of stuff. And he always gave great talks. The Sergant assembly but Fred was kind of in charge of my case and he picked another brother and we’re going to have another meeting and we did. And we talked about and love it. And mind you I had looked up by this time no apostate information. I was still working on the Bible. You know why the Bible is wrong. I was looking up you know some Bible stories contradictions between the Matthew Mark Luke and John. You know and Paul is a counselor tons of contradictions in there and historical contradictions between accounts in the Bible and what actually happened. Right six or sevenB.C. that’s bullshit umB.C. but yeah. So basically I went into that meeting and that was right. That was I think that was a Tuesday night. And we basically had to cut it short because or end ended because there was going to be the meeting. That was a good four and a half hours long. And I was basically hitting them with everything. Evolution contradictions in the Bible. Pyramids Noah’s Ark Noah’s flood and all that. And he actually came out of that meeting confused because the brother gave me some videos to watch. They weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses videos. Believe it or not they were actually movies that were made by other religious groups about these kind of subjects and why evolution is wrong. Yeah. On YouTube that I came out of that meeting confused because I thought it explains some other stuff that I had problems with.

[00:39:16] I kinda figured that all of that would clear up once I did more research cause you know I just went home I looked up some of the things that they said and it wasn’t entirely accurate. I watched the videos the brother told me to watch. And it wasn’t really the stuff they said on evolution so long then joked debunked Jaso by then I’d had three meetings all being about four hours long and now at this point I felt comfortable. I said to myself Alright I think I’m going to start looking up stuff on Jehovah’s Witnesses. That’s when shit hit the fan. That’s when I got really pissed off really ticked off at this religion. I wasn’t mad at them I thought I actually told the brothers I still believed if the Bible were correct that this was the best religion to be and I actually told them that and I know I felt the sting of those words later on. But after those three meetings I started looking up you know. Child abuse among Joe’s witnesses blood transfusions. One of the things that really got me is how much they flip flopped on organ transplants blood transfusions blood fractions. The thing that really hit me was beards you know I mean why can’t I have a beard you know. So I started looking all this stuff up and me and Fred we had a conversation over the phone about child abuse and how the organization handles child abuse. This is really what took me off that and probably how many people have died from not having blood transfusions and I think I think our conversation on the phone is probably like an hour and a half about it.

[00:41:10] But I had excerpts from the elders book Shepherd the flock of God book and I knew they were accurate. The ones I had found out the PDAF because my dad was at work and I got I was able to get to his bag and I found a shepherd with a flock of God book and actually looked a Narron and checked it. So I knew they were accurate. I knew I could trust the version I had. And you know the policies their bullshit on and on how Jehovah’s Witnesses treat child abusers and that they actually get away. And I want to be a police officer now. So like that really irks me that cause all my life I had believed that Jehovah’s Witnesses have better morals in the world and they handle situations better than the world. But here here this worldly judicial system that we’re under in the United States handles child abuse better than better than the truth than God’s organization. You know that that really took me off. And by this point or maybe a little later I decided I want to be a police officer. Now I’d always wanted to be a police officer if I wasn’t a JOAs witnesses there. If I wasn’t a Jones witness either that or the Air Force fighter pilot. So we had our conversation on the phone and then talked to my parents and together they kind of orchestrated this idea. And now mind you I’m in college. You know I have my own schoolwork and my parents and Fred came up with the idea of giving me a paper assignment.

[00:42:46] They want me to write a paper on why Jehovah’s Witnesses believe they gain a few topics to cover why they believe what they do on a set of certain topics. Right. And. And they wanted me to reference articles from the Watchtower Library and whatnot and it’s supposed to be however long they wanted a reference page. You know they wanted the whole nine yards. I was like No this is unofficial. I’m not doing any kind of style. I should have my own stop. I’ve got my own work in school to do. But I did do the paper and by this time I was actually talking to a girl in Brooklyn. I was you know being a Jehovah’s Witness and losing your entire social network I had to revert to online dating and know anybody that I was talking to this girl in Brooklyn and very pretty. She is a Seventh Day Adventist but I was kind of sharing with you know could you do your own research. Her name was dorso. Could you do your own research Durso if you wanted to. You’re allowed to go to college they’re encouraged to go to college. They do a lot more humanitarian work for any type of people not just Joves Wences just kind of comparing things. And so what I learned from Torsella I actually put my paper.

[00:44:09] I compared the two religions and it was I think was like a a four page paper or a six page paper and two thirds of it was or a third of it was what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe lie and then the rest of it was why they’re wrong on them which was not which was not what the assignment was and that actually spurred my judicial committee meaning and I actually told him in the judicial committee meeting that this is not to be used as evidence in my meeting because I knew it was going to happen. You know it was bound to happen. I just told him this does not be used as evidence. This is just you know you sign this and I’m giving it to you to how I want it. And he actually actually told me he’s like why would you give this to me if it’s not to be. It’s in your judicial committee meeting which took me back a little but you kept his word he didn’t use it whenever that came around. But that kind of sparked that kind of sparked. Yeah. My judicial meeting sometime in February like mid February mid to end February I can remember the day I remember when I told my parents but I never took note of what day I decide to leave. We had the judicial meeting and I knew there’d be three elders right. I know it’ll be a long meeting. I put together an entire outline of all the things I was dedicated to covering in this meeting because I wanted I just wanted it kind of from my own records what was going on. So I made an outline and I went. I pulled into the driveway and there’s four cars. So there were actually four elders at my judicial meeting. All four elders that were kind of in my case and I went in and the judicial meeting lasted like 4 1/2 hours.

[00:46:15] Play as long as the other ones I think I know it wasn’t four and a half. It was almost four sorry. We talked about everything pretty much. You know we had already covered evolution and all that and that’s kind of the things those are kind of things that Fred really Fred was the leader of the room he really didn’t want to talk about those he wanted to talk about child abuse and why it felt that way. I was I was giving them scenarios like this we’re talking about child abuse a lot and how they handled it. I knew regardless of what they said. I knew what could happen with the current policies. You know they were trying to cumbered up and say you know it’s all good. You know not covering up the like. Soften it. You know it’s all good. You know we handle it appropriately and everything by it. I was given them scenarios like OK what ifs what if a man abused as a child here in this area and it comes out to the elders and because they’re saying how you know the elders will watch him. We’ll keep an eye out for make sure he’s not around any other kids. And but you know the police wouldn’t be notified if that wasn’t the law. And I just told them you know if a bit comes out of the elders that a man around here abused just a joke was when his child. They keep it under wraps day. And if it wasn’t a law around here I think MPW is the law. I’m not sure I looked that up at the time.

[00:47:46] But if wasn’t the law and it wasn’t brought to the police there’s no way you could watch him. He could. What if he moved to West Virginia or anywhere else in the States you know. He’s out of your purview. You could be anybody in the community. He could be could do anything else outside of your watch. And they were silent. Like they had nothing to say to that. I was completely owning the room but of course I was 41. You know they could they could interrupt me and they couldn’t you know literally blast me with all this information and I get to cover one thing they say. So who’s kind of an even in that way but I had an outline of what I want to talk about. And we talked about it and I brought all all the evidence I gathered. I had a giant folder. Man I had a tax record for the organization. I had I had proof that they were they were they had stocks in Boeing and Honeywell and these war machines right. You know I had I had stuff like that that I kind of I didn’t bring that up I don’t think because that’s not that’s kind of like information for me. No elders can take that and be like Oh you’re right. But I had run out of of the ship in the Fluck. They got a ship with the flock guidebook that I brought with me and Larry he’s sitting in there he’s like how do you get these. How do you get these. And I’m like Larry they’re on line there. They’re so easy to get. It’s unreal. Yeah. That they disfellowshipped me.

[00:49:21] They actually asked me to leave the room. It was so long are my judicial meeting. We had a bathroom break out there. Yeah. Now is a roomful older people so you know Blatters gets strained by 65. So you know obviously that would have happened but that’s how long it was. We had a bathroom break and then we came back we talked more and they told me leave. And it was like five minutes it took them five minutes. Like I thought it took them five minutes to make that. And I didn’t know what I was thinking. You know I actually came to the room was like wow five minutes night I thought it through in five minutes Xscape I got disfellowshipped for apostasy. Now what they got me on. They didn’t have anything on me except a Facebook post I posted to my friends and I made it public. Basically the title of the little blurb was I’m sorry again. And I guess I was kind of like an open letter to any girlfriends I had. Basically just telling them sorry for how big of a prick I was and how religious I was to them and whatever. And I didn’t name Jehovah’s Witnesses. And I didn’t name the organization. But I just said you know sometimes those kind of things rule your life. And I’m sorry that I was that way in school. That’s what they got me on. You know he kept his word he didn’t use the paper that I wrote against me because I made him not.

[00:51:01] But yeah they got me all one Facebook post and I got the sash of her posse. They would’ve gotten me on something else had it not been a Facebook post. After I got back after they told me you know what disfellowshipping you and I laughed. I gathered up all my evidence. Put it in a bag. I had to go to work that night because I was working third shift. So that’s how my night when nobody at work knew I made sure nobody at work knew I wasn’t what was previously Jehovah’s Witness for a while because I just went to see how I could interact with them. Without them knowing that and then I told them and you know they were supportive. But yeah I had work that night. After that let’s see I had a job. So I was getting know good income. So in college you know I still had a life that I was trying to build after that I was still living with my parents. My parents were still talking to me. My sister was still talking to me by anybody outside of that house was not wouldn’t talk to me. I found out a little while later after after her my disfellowshipping had kind of spread out among the circuit because I can only imagine it was kind of a shock because it came out of nowhere. You know it wasn’t like I stopped attending meetings. It was like in fact I was still attending meetings up until probably the second meeting I had with the elders. So I was still I was still kind of keeping up the facade.

[00:52:39] Among the people they didn’t know I was still I still my duties like at the time I was in charge like magazines. I wasn’t in charge of literature. I wasn’t I wasn’t in charge of literature. I was Arja territories and stuff like that. That’s right. That’s another fun fact. Before I left. Me and Trent we redid the territory for a congregation and I think even at the tail end like like even when I knew I wasn’t going to be a Jehovah’s Witness anymore I was still working on redoing the territory for the congregation faithfully you know doing them right just for them. Right. And so I still kind of had that I was still doing that even after even after the first meeting with the olders they kind of took that away with me from a pretty quick I couldn’t comment at the meeting or anything. Do any of that you know they said you’re not gonna do that. I paid attention more than ever before. You know at what the Jones what they were saying and I was looking to all of our scriptures than ever before but yeah they announced my disfellowshipping and my mom was like hey do you want to come with us. See it. I was like why would I do that. They’re basically executing me publicly. And I did tie into the meeting and a fun little story a few years before that I’d gotten training on handling sound right. And we had the whole tie in system and everything and you had to enter codes and dial a certain number to set it up and everything. And I was at home because I was you know quote unquote sick.

[00:54:26] And I went to stay home and my mom was with me. I was that young and we we’re going to die in a meeting and I typed in a phone number and then I entered the code for the sound system at the Kingdom Hall and so we were not only tied in the meeting but we were also broadcasting. So throughout the entire meeting anybody else tied in with us while we were at home were we’re hearing what we’re doing and we’re baking cookies. So yeah. So I. So I knew the code for that and everything. And so I tightened from my disfellowshipping using the broadcasting code and I muted myself. I didn’t I couldn’t I didn’t know what the tie in code was for just real listening. I couldn’t remember but I had that memorized and and I got disfellowshipped. It was I was kinda irritated with Larry because Larry announced it and there were like three announcements that night. And you know whatever was before it. And then Larry’s like and Caleb Tanner is no longer want to Jonas witnesses. On a brighter note like that’s how quick or quick it was like I said I’d put it. I got a little pissed off about that and I’m listening in. And that’s when the song comes around and I forget it was before the song or after the song I unmuted myself. And I said well there you have it folks or Shotton Snoddy you know I I wasn’t going to rock it for everybody or I did. I wasn’t going to come back on me.

[00:56:04] I you know wrecked a meeting for anybody tyddyn but that’s kind of like a fun thing for myself I could have done some Yes I just went through life there after that and it was I got back in touch with Austin. He’s my roommate because we really weren’t talking there after we graduated. We’re friends best friends in high school but we really didn’t talk after we graduated. And so we hung out some more. And I think we even went to the movies for like first time ever. I before before I left before I told my parents my grandparents my best friend that I no longer want to be a Joe was when I got back in touch with a girl named Sam and she her family is Joves on Ness’s she’s my age. She’s exactly six months older than me. She. But she went to meetings you know she kind of embraced it there for a while but then she kind of faded out and I stopped talking to her but I got back in touch with her again and so I was talking to her at the time. And I later texted her like we met and I didn’t tell her I didn’t want to be. Jones was a witness anymore. Then I texted her later hey you know I’ve made this decision. She kind of freaked out. It was a cool moment. But so I was I was kind of hanging out with her over the summer and sometime around August. And I we get back together and then Austyn I I kind of like Tolstoy was like hey what do you think about us moving in together.

[00:57:42] And he was up in Wilkes-Barre Scranton area which is like northeast about northeast of the state and he was at college there and he was I wasn’t really an option because you know I’m going to be going to college up there. But then like a week a week and a half later he text me back he’s like Hey call me. And we talked about just about moving in together. And he picked a college out near Pittsburgh for a reason aviation because the school he was out was so expensive and so he liked that and he was like think about it you know about moving out and being roommates. I was like oh wow that’s a big deal you know. But long story short I mean we decide to move out and we’re living our own some things I’ve learned since I left. People are evil people are worldly people are the world is not controlled by the devil you know what the world would be a very different place if it was you know Satan is not the root of the system of things. I was working at Frito-Lay when I left. And they’re so supportive there. I was told I was. I was so annoying. I was telling them all these different plans I had. And then a week later I’d tell them about different plans I’d made because you know I felt differently at that time a week to week. My plans changed and they were so supportive and I’d tell them everybody by the time I left everybody knew I had to leave because you know I moved by it.

[00:59:24] By the time I left everybody knew my shift and everybody was so supportive about it and I basically just found out that people are loving you know I can I can form lasting friendships with someone who’s not a job as witness. And people can have their own beliefs and their own feelings on things and that’s fine. I don’t have to shove my own beliefs down their throat. You know I don’t have to try and convince them I mean I’m open to a TV debate on any subject with anyone at any time but that doesn’t mean I should fight. I just learned that that I can be friends with with people that are not Jehovah’s Witnesses and that the world is a much better place than I thought it was. People are doing good things. You know the world is pretty fucked up by it. It’s not as bad as I thought it was. There’s there’s still hope. You know I’m an atheist. I don’t believe there’s a God if there is that be great. I really hope there’s an afterlife. That would be awesome. But if there isn’t. You know I’m I’m ready for that there’s a lot of things I enjoy about this life being free to talk to anybody I want to without bringing up Bosche Arawak that’s nice that I can pursue what I want to do. So I went to a police officer right. That’s fun. I mean I’m not saying being a police officer is always fun but like that’s fun pursuing something I really wanted to do. I wanted to I wanted to go to trade school in mechatronics degree because I wanted to do something that was kind of interesting when I was at Bethel.

[01:01:16] Yeah I was kind of really rooting for a position as a mechanic at walking for the printing department or or one of those traveling brothers that goes around and helps mean it’s for kingdom halls or being part of a permanent. It’s not called the RBC anymore whatever it is. I came here. I should know that I should know that because I’m under a year out. Right. Right. I don’t. But yeah I enjoy I enjoy the freedoms I have now and I’m actually going to basic training for the army here in January. I’m excited for that. I’m excited to join to get into the army. I kind of always wanted to be in the military. I thought that would be kind of cool. In contrast to my grandfather who you know didn’t want to be a soldier he wanted to be a construction worker worker but different stripes different folks whatever. But I’m just excited for the life ahead and for the friendships I’ll have. I enjoy living on my own relatively I mean I have a roommate that was on our own a whole new area a whole new. A whole new life. I mean don’t get me wrong I’m incredibly lonely. I mean when I’m home alone like I’ve been home alone for the past I don’t know. My roommate went to work at 2:00 for the past couple of hours. You know I had really nothing to do and it’s really lonely. And I expected to be lonely for quite awhile because you know when your whole social network goes down you’re going to be lonely.

[01:03:05] So don’t get me wrong I do get depressed sometimes but I know that’s not going to be that way forever. That’s that’s the other thing I learned. Life isn’t fair you know and nor is it nor is it going to be in the future. I mean that’s I had to grow up quick from who I was relying on my parents. You know I was making when I was working for that construction group I was working with I was only work and one day a week I’ll get like 60 bucks every week. And maybe 60 bucks a paycheck. I can’t even remember. So I was kind of relying on my parents a lot and going from that to telling my parents I don’t want to be a JOAs witness anymore. My mom’s like OK we need to sign your car over your name a little while later and you need to start thinking about after you graduate getting your own apartment. Like they started they started kind of you know get ready for us to push you out. And so you had to grow up quick. And when I say when I say I was at work telling them about a new plan each week I have a new plan every week. Nothing has been stable in my life for the past year. So I’ve had to come up with something new. Pretty much every week or every other week I see. You learn to grow up quick and you learn the minimum of course on my bragging or anything by it. I am not the man I was in early November I asked last Urla last November. I’m not the man I was entirely mad of my childhood.

[01:04:57] I’m not I’m not entirely angry with this entire situation. You know it sucks. You know it’s not right but I wouldn’t want to be anybody different. You know I’ve been through. I’ve you know before before I got out. No I could look at my grandfather. He was in Vietnam OK. And and he he is such a character right. I mean he’s funny he’s kind of funny. He’s kind of a jackass. But he is just his own person and everybody respected him for that. And then my dad he’s kind of his own person. He’s I mean he’s made his own you know made it into his own. But I wasn’t necessarily I was kind of living in their legacy. I was kind of living under them. So once I left I had something you know I mean it’s kind of a crazy something but you know that made me who I am. I mean that’s that’s a pro if anything of this whole situation. I’m I me I have mixed feelings about my family. I have mixed feelings. Well that’s pretty much it. I have no feelings when it comes to those in a creation I was with. They’re fine. They’re finally in their old life. That’s fine. I mean I miss them but I’m kind of angry at my family. I mean of course I mean this this you know early molten stage. You know I just got out by it. So I I can be a little angry but I mean if I could say things to them I don’t know what I’d say to my family.

[01:06:50] I now I’m in contact with my aunt. Her name is Lydia and she basically went through everything I did although in voluntarily she got disfellowshipped for something a long time ago and we actually stopped talking to her. I remember that I was I was younger and I had no understanding that but we actually stopped talking to her and um my grandfather did to my grandfather cut off his own daughter. So to my grandmother. So did my dad who’s her brother. We all just cut her off. My mom has never liked her. So I mean she knows my my aunt knows that too. That’s first thing we talked about was my mom and we got together. But having done that twice my my aunt got disfellowshipped and then she got reinstated and my family talks to her every once in a great while. And I don’t know if I’d say anything to them. I think it’d be really awkward if me and my parents started talking again and I think I just cost my grandfather out if I saw them again because for him to do that to cut off my aunt his own daughter and then bring her back into his life. He told me she has a kid. He’s 11. OK. And my grandfather told me he said the only reason we still talk to Lydia is because of her kid. We’re hoping that maybe something will click with him and he’ll become a Joves witness. That’s the only reason they talked to. And at all it’s despicable. And at the time I was like Yeah that makes sense that that’s how indoctrinated I was.

[01:08:51] You know that’s yeah that makes sense. You know I mean I had always viewed my aunt as some type a rebel you know a rebel that that I don’t know just a person that we only talk to when we had to right. And and now I think back that I told my aunt this that I told my aunt when my grandfather had said that you know she should know now. And I just would cost him out if I ever saw him again. For him to do that and bring her back and then drop me like a rock. After I told him I didn’t want to be a Joe’s witness he didn’t talk to me. Not a single word. I don’t know what his reasoning on that was maybe thought maybe I’d come back to him you know by just just for him to do that just ticks me off. My my grandmother I have a lot more respect for my grandmother than when she first all she actually talked to me afterwards. But she came up to me. I was still going to meetings. She came up to me probably after the first meeting with the lawyers and she she just told me like you know choose the best way you know choose the truth. And then she cried and she hugged me you know and you know I there were times during that whole experience that I felt unsure about myself. That maybe I had gotten it wrong. Maybe they do the truth. You know I was I was second guessing myself.

[01:10:37] And there were there was a time even when I was like Alright my mom for a for like two months after I told them that I wanted to leave my mom cried every other day probably. So there was a time where like my mom’s out in another part of the house crying and my dad kind of doing his own thing and I’m just like maybe I want to come back just to get her to stop crying just to get him to stop feeling that way. The only thing that the only thing that kept me in was that Caylee and I had had sex and I knew that if I came back and if I had if I had just given up all the research I was doing and just accepted that this was the truth I would have to tell the owners that we had sex that would all come out. And I’m going to be honest with that because you know and people can say whatever they want. OK. Well there you go. You left because you would have been disfellowshipped for fornication or whatever but that’s that’s the one thing that kept me from breaking down at that one moment at just to get my mom to stop crying. Now I’m living on my own. I have a job I’m paying my own bills paying my own rent. I’m looking for a career in law enforcement a career in the army you know I’m on my own. You know I have a relationship with my aunt side of the family that I’ve never really had a relationship with. They’re up in New York State and I have a relationship with my uncle on my mom’s side.

[01:12:34] Someone we haven’t talked to each other in person in quite a while but over Facebook and so I’m I mean I’m pretty good. Like I said I’m. I get lonely but I’m not. I’m certainly better than I was when I was a Joves when US and I don’t mean I don’t mean in regards to being happy or something. I mean I was I was happy when I was Johs when as you know ignorance is bliss. But but I’m I feel better about the person I am. And I know more about myself than I ever have. At 19 you know because I’ve been through you know what I’ve been through. I want to be a state trooper or work at the FBI I’d be kind of cool or some other federal like the DEA or ATF. Yes I’m like that unless I really like the military. I’m going in for military police. And by the time I get active duty because I’ll be go on. I’ll be going for training and I’ll come back in the reserves. I’m going to finish up a bachelors degree and then I’m gonna go active duty I’ll be an officer then. So I might just do that for the rest of my life if I like it. I don’t know. But yeah either state trooper or a big city likeL.A. or something like that or you know FBI you know some federal but you know I’m planning to make the most of it make the most of my life and do something that I can be proud of. That’s kind of why I’m joined the military.

[01:14:10] That’s kind of why I want to be a police officer something be proud of something that my kids can look up to me and be proud of me. And you know maybe they can kind of do what I’m doing or do their own thing. You know they’re free to do whatever but do something I can be proud of and respect myself for something that’s involved with my community and helping other people. So the song I picked a little more by machine gun Kelly there’s a line in it that he says it’s my favorite line and all the rap I’ve listened to he says they told me fight night I’m supposed to lose. So from my understanding boxing matches sometimes were fixed. And so this is kind of a callback to that. And that’s that’s my favorite line all rap because they told me that you know without Jehovah’s Witnesses what am I. You know that’s how I felt for a long time. And so you know that line they told me fight night I’m supposed to lose I’m not losing where I’m mad. You know I’m I’m in a better place. So in just a few weeks on January 20 30 Caleb was leaving for basic training. He’s chasing his goals joining the army and without any support from his immediate family. So go to shunnedpodcast.com click on episodes find Caleb’s episode here and you can leave a comment under his episode of encouragement. Now for a special announcement I recently recorded the story of David which will be our episode for February. However it’s going to be a little different. It’s also very involved. It’s quite a heavy story and it’s very raw at times.

[01:16:09] There was a lot to cover and the issues that were covered are very important particularly that sexual abuse with everything that’s going on within Jehovah’s Witnesses today with the two witness rule with the Australian Royal Commission and everything. So this is going to be more than one episode released one week after another in February. It’s also going to be released as a conversation between him and I see this as a very important episode. I encourage you to spread the word to other ex Jehovah’s witnesses or people who are shunned. Anyone that you think might be interested in learning how this how this aspect of things works within the organization. Additionally you know I just think that people need to hear this episode period. And so I encourage you to subscribe. That way you’ll get the next episodes automatically you won’t have to wait for maybe me to release an announcement on some site that you visit to see that is out. Please go ahead and subscribe. That way you’ll get them automatically. And you know I’m not going to make you wait. You know one episode of the beginning of February like I usually do and in one at the beginning of March or something like that I’m going to go ahead and release this story one part at a time I’m not sure how many it’s going to break down into as I edit it I’ll find out but it will be multiple parts and I’ll go ahead and release part one. You know one week in February and part two the next week. So that’s it’s not overwhelming but also so that you don’t have to wait to get the rest of the story.

[01:17:53] So I encourage you to do that. I hope that everyone is having a happy new year. You know we’re all trying to live life in this new world. Those of us who are shunned and I’ll see you in the next episode.

Mike Is Shunned By Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:14] Welcome to shunned the monthly podcast where we expose the religions that use shunning as a method to coerce and control. These are real stories as told by the person that live them telling these stories takes courage and the strength to be vulnerable. After this week’s episode I encourage you to go to shunnedpodcast.com and leave a message for the person that told their story by commenting on their episode. I’ve told mine and it means a lot to hear from people that can relate. Each person will be able to read and respond to your messages of encouragement. Now let’s listen to this month’s real life story of being shown a mike twice over. And I was born and raised Joe’s with us. I’m actually not not not really Shunda because I’m inactive like I wasn’t disfellowshipped and I’ve never dissociated or anything but anyway I was born and raised in that so I never saw the outside world that much kid. My parents were actually both in the Navy and my mom had joined when she was pretty young I think but I think maybe when she left to finish high school so must be been 18 because from the way I was told the story which I’ve only been told the story by a handful of times but she had joined the Navy and I think same thing with my dad pretty much so my mom is like this white girl from like suburban Illinois or suburban Chicago Illinois. My dad is from San Antonio Texas.

[00:01:53] I grew up in the projects having eight brothers and sisters so very different worlds and then they they both join the Navy and our members and my dad told me that he would always check out my mom and that actually like. Like he would go out on a double date with these two other people and I think they end up being married too. And then we’ll actually find the time my dad was dating another girl and then my mom was being another guy. And then they would double date and they end up being together. I actually kind of crisscrossed it so they both kind of trailed off or whatever then my mom got married. My dad like I think early mid 80s they were living and living in Hawaii for I think maybe 3 or 4 years because they were stationed in Pearl Harbor and then my mom was just checking my mail one day and a Jehovah’s Witness just walked up on her and then gave her Be Live Forever book. I think it was and from the way that my mom told me that she read the whole thing in one night and she would look after that and I think I actually remember listening to an episode of years or something else and then that was a common experience that they would get a book and then they would they would read in one night or in a very short period of time and then fucking hooked. Hey hate so so then my mom started studying and my dad wasn’t completely sold on it. But I think after a while he kind of came around to it because part of that they were looking for a church anyway but they had gone to like just typical run of the mill Christian churches.

[00:03:16] And I think they saw that that other Christian churches don’t take it super seriously. But I went to a Jehovah’s Witness like you’re taking it superset it’s like like you aren’t playing around it like it isn’t like the whole week you’re sitting and doing whatever you want and then suddenly you come in say 20 Hail Marys like it’s not. It’s not that cut and dry. So I think that was what my parents on it and then they were like OK this seems like they’re actually playing by the book and then they start studying and they got baptized mid 80s late 80s moved back to Illinois where I am right now to the suburbs again where my mom is from. And then I was born and raised over here so I never I never knew anything outside of it much really. So I don’t remember thinking much of it as a kid because it just because that was the way I was raised like it doesn’t hit me. I remember when people would be like like oh I feel so bad for you because you know you never celebrate Christmas or your birthday blah blah whatever but to me that was just life. And I mean even still to this day like I’ve been out for about eight years now but still to this day I don’t celebrate my birthday. It’s weird for me to even celebrate other people’s birthdays like around the holiday time since it’s pretty much just me and my parents like in this area and my whole family is in Texas. I still will celebrate holidays unless I have a girlfriend and then I celebrate with her family. But like I still don’t celebrate any of these things.

[00:04:41] And it’s not because of any kind of superstition or because of the religion but I’m just not used to it especially birthdays like birthdays to me are still weird because I give so much attention on yourself and you I’m just not used to that because I mean I was never introduced to them as a kid. And I remember knowing that I was different because I was pretty obvious even though my kindergartner was because I’m out like I was saying the pledge during a thing in kindergarten. I think the only kid my class and I mean maybe one of like two or three kids in my entire school. So I mean it was like it wasn’t many of us and seem like we would make a big scene once we did that. So like like I knew I was different but I didn’t really I guess I believed it because I was that age and I just didn’t know what to think. Even here my parents are like pushing it on me every single day. Yeah I like it. Like it didn’t mean much to me but it was just a normal part of life growing up. I think I viewed the world exactly how they told me to and it was just everyone else was wrong. And I still kind of have that like inherent view of the world about me still. Yeah. Like I like everyone else is wrong everyone else’s centers and like like not exactly looking down on other people but just just pretty much that like the rest is wrong.

[00:06:00] And then you’re the one that has the answer your you like your group of people has the answer. Which I don’t think varies too much from other religions. But but it’s it’s just really emphasized in the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. We would like to emphasize that you have the truth. Like I’ve even use that term which is which is a funny habit to break going on because like because it goes away after I didn’t even believe a thing about anymore I still call it the truth. But it was just because of conditioning because then else calls it bear as a witness. So I think going along with that point to. I know it’s all look like all the war games they would play and then not even know and live their light like light maybe a ad at a very high level likeC.T. Russell or like Judge Rutherford or something like that had expired using that terminology and then that was what what kind of bright everyone in. But now it’s just like subconscious and everyone just says like the truth as if like they’re 100 percent sure. I’m not sure other religions do that too. But yeah that was that was kind of how I saw it. Back then it was just the truth. Yeah. So I was never afraid of outsiders because I made it apparent that I was more curious because I mean like I was always like a little like class clown like a jokester kind of kid in a school. So like I would always play around with with other kids. I mean I mean me not saying the pledge or having to leave the room for like birthdays and stuff like that like it didn’t make me different.

[00:07:30] But I don’t think that other kids really treat me that poorly as a kid. I remember leaving the room when they would read Harry Potter. Once I was like fourth or fifth grade and I would just like draw and add and then play nowadays I’m a I’m a graphic designer so I guess I kind of built towards that. And I was always doodling in my Watchtower or whatever or just fly on the Ivailo like these you no paper that was taking notes on. So my parents were like relatively lenient lay low. They weren’t really super hard nosed about it like I had some friends growing up that did. I had one friend who his parents thought everything was demonized. They wouldn’t buy stuff from garage sales because they thought that like they would buy an old like a pepper grinder that had Baphomet in it. I’m not sure how that works but. Yeah. Like I never thought the outside world was was that big a threat. I mean if anything I’d want to want to have more friends so Deadman’s me whether they were witnesses or not. Like I know I did have this way of thinking. But even once I met friends as a kid I never try to push my faith on them. I never said that they were wrong but it was just kind of a way that you were taught. I never saw the outside threat or the outside world as a threat. I mean I was just more curious than anything I guess. So I had I had moved until like my third house as a kid maybe when I was about 9 years old.

[00:08:56] And then there was there was two kids who lived right down the street. One was two houses away away and then the other one was houses the way I remember I had went to the to the to the four house away kid. There was Carlos and get a Playstation here a bunch of games everything. And I remember the first thing I did was I went to the games and I was like alright I can play this I can play this I can’t play this I can play this I can’t play this like all mobile video games. And I remember that I think all he asked was like well why. And then I was just like huh yeah you’re right my parents aren’t here. And I mean I guess I did try to have this looming thing that Joe was watching me or something. But I was just like well. But I guess I just started playing playing violent video games. I forgot what the games were back then but I remember that that I play smack down a lot. Back in those days. But yeah me just playing stupid games and everything but that was. That was the point where I was like tainted by the outside world because he also listens like Eminem and like rap back in the day. So that was what got me into that culture too. And then once I learned of that culture than that I mean I like I wasn’t trying to be a witness part well yeah. Yeah. And that’s and that’s what I don’t understand about nowadays. I don’t know how people can still be jobi like.

[00:10:15] Like all you need to do is go to Google and then just google Jehovah’s Witnesses like like like the first link will beJ.W. dot org. But everything else is going to be some kind of criticism or some kind of like exposed video or something like Just go on google. Everyone has a smartphone. Everyone has a laptop or a computer or something or go to the library like research your religion from third party sources because I remember that they would pretty much preach tend not to look outside. And I was like Wait so you’re telling me that there is thousands of peer reviewed scientific journals. There is like there’s all this other evidence and information out there but we’re supposed to only read a handful of books from the last 150 years. No that’s a lie. That makes no sense to me. So yeah I like it but is anyone listening. That hasn’t gotten Google yet but I’m sure they did because they promised you know I remember one of the first times that I ever asked the question about like Africa what it was about. But I remember that I didn’t even get an answer because I think I asked the elder or it was my dad or something and whoever it was they told me and they’re like oh that’s just Satan planting a seed of doubt in your heart. And then what I first heard that I was like 14 or 15 years old and I was like This is bull shit like you’re really begging me to take them. And they’re like you know like sums up the year and I forgot what that question was.

[00:11:41] I wish I could remember but just just their response like this reeks of brainwashing you know my mom had tried to institute like a family study time and everything. I’m like Saturday at 2:00 o’clock. And I used to hate it so much. Like I mean like we hardly even did family dinner like I had a very isolated family and my dad would work he would. He would work third shift he would sleep in in the morning time and then he would just watch TV or just do like yardwork or whatever yesterday my mom would be on her computer. My mom has always been pretty technologically proficient and I got that from her. So both me and her I always use news like computers all the time growing up. My dad used to use a computer now Marty because he’s a he’s retired we don’t have a super close family. I mean we all still love each other and everything but we weren’t overly affectionate about it. Yeah. So they kind of like like they don’t force anything on me at home. I mean they watch what I did and and like my mom was like Okay. So it’s funny because I always tell people about how my mind was and and they kind of flipped shit about like the way my mom would react reaction back in the day because she would set up cameras to shoot set up like listening devices like just like little reporters just to see what I’m doing.

[00:12:59] And like I just always think I’m like if Jehovah is watching me and I’m judging me for what I’m doing then what’s the point of you watching me like if I don’t care what God is thinking of me then like what I care. My mom is reporting me. And like I actually have a thing. I prefer my mom more because she’s actually right there in front of me and she can take my ex by the way. But yes she used to like just watch everything I did and like I like it sounds bad but that was a normal part of life for me too. So even when I tell people like that story I’m just like yeah you know this my life growing up they’re like Are you serious. Your mom I did this live. So that was the only weird thing because I didn’t like like my dad was pretty chill. I’m actually I’m I’m I’m a hundred percent sure that my dad was a stoner when he was a teenager and he would listen to Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin I’m like Hendrix everything. And I actually kind of got that from him to blow up the music so much. But I’m I’m kind of a stoner nowadays. But yeah. So I think that he didn’t care as much what he did care but he just and he’s just a real chill guy. I guess that’s the best way to put it. So yeah. Like I never got it forced on me too much but I deftly. I mean like they always want me. So I do my Watchtower study. I could never miss a meeting. I could never miss going on a field service like I had to fake being sick so much as a kid just to get out of this.

[00:14:20] And so what people don’t understand about witnesses to is that you don’t get their weekend. We can sleep in and watch cartoons and eat cereal because if you have multiple congregations at the Kingdom Hall on Sunday then like you’re like you’re meeting could be at 9:00 in the morning 12:00 in the afternoon 3:00 in the afternoon and then if you have a 9:00a.m. meeting then Saturday morning you’re like waking up for field service and then Sunday morning you have a meeting. So it’s like you have no time to chill cause you go back to school on Monday. And that was like last for a year at a time or sometimes I’ll be meeting with what would be 12 or three and that was like a blessing until football season came around and would miss football. But yeah. So like my parents never missed meeting everyone in my skilled service. I would do my studies obviously like like no violent video games or even just the most innocuous stuff like they would like. They would mention like I remember I want to buy this shirt and this shirt. This is like really ironic thing that is just a major red flag when you look back on it. But I want to buy this shirt and this shirt. It said truth seekers it’s it like it said like something about truth dhikr isn’t that like there was a little paragraph of text you like super small text like Oh we are the ones that look Patru with them like blah blah whatever it was.

[00:15:34] I’m sorry Gerbrandt called academics back in the day you know and it looked like and then it was like a picture of a crane or something on it it was a thing like religious at all. And then I remember my dad was just like you know like you shouldn’t get this because people might get the wrong idea I’m like the wrong idea. Like if anything this like we call ourselves the truth. So this shirt should relate. You know like when LeBron James had that witness shirt. So it’s funny because my parents actually bought those shirts just but you know for the purpose of being a witness. Yeah which is funny. Yes. So I mean my parents are moderate. They were lean yeah except my mom she was a little bit more high strung. But I can understand why and why my mom would be. And it’s because like like your brother growing up and he went to school in Chicago and she got killed out here in the 70s. So I think I think I think her losing him is the reason why she clung to the religion why she was so overbridge overprotective about me. So I mean I can’t I can’t fault them too much because I mean my parents were doing were trying to do the right thing and they would do what they genuinely believed in. And this is just that me and them have different ideas of what’s right what’s wrong. My saving grace at the Kingdom Hall was that I was so like I said for the class clown. I feel like talking to people you know like okay so. So growing up I had had a few speech impediment. I still have my list now.

[00:17:06] But growing up I have like a stutter and that’s kind of why I can trip up on words sometimes I have to say like in between the words deaf the kind and slow myself down. But my saving grace at the hall was that I could talk to people and I actually like giving talks and I gave my first thought when I was five years old. It was just a Bible reading at a time because this was like 1995. So I just went up there and I had so much speech impediments like I would say Jehovah like de Hoba and I would try not stutter. I had my list but everything. So the one good thing about growing up a witness in the hall is that I broke my fear of speaking in front of people even though I had my speech impediments at a super early age. And I think they put my emphasis on my reading and like and like they put emphasis on education but only within the organization you know I mean like like as soon as the meeting was over as soon as we had a witness I was out of witness mode. I was just I mean I would still like kind of keep my composure but I would I would be playing with my friends joking around nothing to like lewd or like like I’ve seen back in the day but that was partly because I was around them too because at school. It was completely different story. My best trait as a witness was like was was was was giving talks. Sometimes I’ll be good out in service by the time we kind of did like it at all.

[00:18:27] I don’t think people thought too negatively or too negatively of me. I don’t think I was ever seen as like a bad influence maybe like. Like a few times because I was kind of making it a little bit more obvious toward my late teens. I was like not really following everything because I mean I just wouldn’t volunteer to hold my ex or rape. Actually I remember early on I actually liked holding of a microphone and then like passing it out because you might not be bored just sit there all day and night and listen to the same thing that we study two days ago with your family. I wasn’t I wasn’t seen as like as like the black sheep of the hall until I was reproved. I think when I was like 16 or 17 and then I got this fellowship when I was 18 and I think so I was never seen as like the black sheep until then. So life Galen Hall was was pretty decent. I mean you know it’s never mind sitting through an hour hour and a half old bible talk. But I mean having your friends afterwards like thankfully there was a bunch of kids and my whole and then that that made so much better I could only imagine going to a hall of like all people. So now you get to sit through like bible talk. But then you have to be the one kid amongst all these old people after that like this. Like that would be fun. So I had fun.

[00:19:41] But I mean at the same time what I look back on it like damn I could’ve been using that time even if it’s just a play to create more memories but I could’ve been you know like tinkering with like electronics or driving more or like building up my skill set or something else that I became interested in later on. I never saw the meetings as super negative but I also did want to be there either my witness life was completely separate from my real personal life or I meet her or how I would be at school or around my friend because like all my close friends knew that I was a witness by never led seep into into anything else I did. Because I mean you know like growing up I felt it was just a part of life. Like I never I never thought that was my entire life. And I remember my mom and I think a lot of witnesses have this term that they say double life like you’re leading a double life hand. Oh actually yeah. Like I remember like circuit Overseer’s I’m like people using that term back then but I used to think that was funny because they said that you were leading a double life where really you were just trying to lead your own life. Like there’s no double life like you acting different here at the hall. But I mean people also different at their jobs for how they do outside too. So yeah I never understood that terminology and that’s why they why they mention that I never saw it as as I Breaking Bad too much.

[00:21:06] But once I was so OK first time I was with the second person and talk about but but I’ll try anyway because because because it’s relevant by member because I have lost my virginity really early on I had like girlfriends when I was younger and everything. And you know I remember the first time I ever said but when I was like 10 years old. And then you think that you’re that you’re about to be smitten feels like feels the words come out of your mouth. But I’m like. But then later on I kept doing worse and worse stuff like I remember when I first had sex like like it did and it didn’t really faze me too much so I mean I knew it was like a big deal as far as your life goes but I never I never saw it as like being anything that Jehovah was just write me down for like like I did kind of feel like I could just go back to the hall and then just keep being good and then it would kind of offset that anyway. So so I was like so I had a girlfriend early on and I remember when like North Korea first started getting theU.S. to that world. This wasn’t the first time but I remember this was like I remember this was once it was it was in the news pretty heavy and around 2006 I met Kim Jong Il was talking about like bomb in theU.S. or whatever. Now like I may not I know better I would never made this mistake. But back then I was kind of just like super paranoid that the end was coming. You know like like 9/11 was five years before that.

[00:22:35] I remember once 9/11 happened like the way that that that this is teacher growing up is that like it that these things will happen and then the end will come. Or how the how the scripture goes I would have my head now but yes so. So once that happened once I heard that Kim Jong Il was like threatening theU.S. and it seemed like we were getting closer to war. I thought we were getting close to him again. And I remember like kind of just being super nervous everyday pressure because I was having sex with my girlfriend all the time. And I thought I was like Armageddon was coming and then I was going to be smitten and then you know I would die forever or whatever and out and I actually just came out to my parents and then I thought about everything I did. They like they had scheduled like meetings with the elders I’d tell them everything and then that was the first time that I was I was reproved. And I remember that left for about like well like not the actual reproves itself but just like my whole life zealousness had came back afterwards. And then like I like I take that serious for about a month after that are like a month after I first went to the elders and then I know I can kind of warm or out of bed or I just didn’t care that much like I did kind of believe it. But like I had this weird relationship with being a witness where I didn’t 100 percent believe it. But that was just kind of how I live my life. So so so that was just normal to me.

[00:24:04] So yeah I mean it was so it was kind of back to square one after that. But then once I was disfellowshipped. So like one of my best friends who I had quite grown up with since I was 9. So life like with my best friend was it was was getting married and he had like an out of date and everything and then I was just Falchion so I was trying really hard to get back so I could go to his wedding and then not be shunned. He like I think he was talking me through someone else like a sister or my mom or something. And then they told me I could go to his wedding if I want to well like wow wow. I was just fellowship. But I had I had chosen not to because I did cause I felt being a witness is a big popularity contest. And then and then if you’re not popular and then you show up around a popular person then them like their rap will take hits. So I don’t want to go to his wedding and make him look bad because to hear this this dispels a person showing up. So I’ve missed him going to going to look like my best friend’s wedding because I was disfellowshipped when I was 18. And yeah that was a really weird time because I was well what I’d switch high schools to like like halfway through so I was at new high school. I was out again shunned by people this was like toward the end of my high school career too. But like I had a girlfriend at the time to then and she wasn’t a witness off fiercely.

[00:25:26] So yeah it was it was it was a really weird time for me because I I was stunned by a lot people I didn’t know a lot of people at high school I was going to. And that kind of made me because I was a lot more outgoing and like I was more of a class clown like middle school. But but once I got to high school and then I change high schools and then I was in the process of being shunned to that kind of change my personality a lot actually because I mean if I still ahead if I still had the same kind of Christian life I did have a kid I’d be a comedian or something now. You know but like I do have that low spurts. But I also but like like I also see the part me come out that was kind of taught to me like midway through my heart. Where do my high school career was that. Just keep to yourself. Because like when you’re being shunned in this one place that you go to three times a week and then to like like you like you’re in high school where you were you don’t know anyone and you kind of have to make a name for yourself. But yeah all those things happened to me right around that time was probably the worst time that it could happen. Like like as far as as far as a like construct of time and like I’m like decisive time in your life where where we’re you we kind of mold your personality through those years. But I mean like I say I mean like I always say that I think I have a really unique perspective.

[00:26:45] I have two parents from completely different places who kind of brought us to the middle of nowhere as far as like where they’re from. And I have no family. I have no I have no like fallback plan. It’s pretty much just me. But even but even in that circumstance I still have had to leave leave the truth in and in the air quotes because I just didn’t. I just didn’t believe it. So even even even even through all that stuff happening at their high school I never felt obligated to stay or that that was my only my only method of making a making a life for myself. I’ve a lot of stuff to say about disfellowshipping like. I think most like I think most witnesses do. But it makes no sense that that your solution to the problem of someone committing like like a deadly center something is to completely shun them. Why shouldn’t I be the person that you’re trying to help the most. Like shit like shit like shunning makes no sense. I wonder why you wouldn’t be trying to offer words of encouragement or advice to someone who is in a position where they obviously stand and you kind of have to bring back to the light. I don’t know why do think that that’s an effective method. And it also to you I mean because Kazami isn’t married. Is there an instance in the Bible where Jesus is like sitting with like some Kassin.

[00:28:06] After I figure forget what he was doing with all my year of going to the Bible over and over and over again and remember anything anyone like I used to I used to be able to like to quote certain scriptures about remember much from the Bible anymore. But yeah I like as far as the shipping goes. I don’t understand why why that’s their solution to everything and also because okay so me myself. So I’m an actor right now. Like I was never disfellowshipped I was never I’d never dissociated myself. But what’s funny is that so I have a friend and his face. There was this fellowship in about five years ago and I remember my mom wasn’t talking to her at the time even though these were family friends. So no one was talking to her in the meanwhile. Like here I’d come along and I think I’d I’d like like I had my ears pierced at the time too. And like here I come along with facial hair ears pierced. Obviously not going to the hall and I can still talk to my witness friends because well not all my witness friends but I had a couple that that I’ll still talk to you and they don’t treat me differently. But like I just don’t talk to them what’s the point. I mean obviously it’s like I was doing this scholarship worthy things at the time and I and I still do. But I never I never took that route. So people didn’t view me as ever in that red area like I was in that gray area where I could still talk to witnesses. But meanwhile let me. But like me I’d like you here.

[00:29:30] Here is this girl who wants to come back who is just fellowship but they will talk to her even though she’s making an active effort to come back to the home. So it makes no sense and I don’t know anyone ever actually thought about objectively and also to like so. So like I get the line of logic that they’re coming to disfellowshipping being an option to lie. I get how they come to that point. But I think what happened was that at first they were like Okay we shouldn’t associate with these people so we shouldn’t be spending extra time with them. By the whole you know like treat them like a normal human being. But I think what happened is that since like being a witness is a big popularity contest like one person is like Okay well I’m not going to hang out with a person outside the home. And the next person is like Okay well that I’ve taught that person and the next person is like Okay well I’m I’m going to look at that person and then that’s pretty much what comes down to it. If there are witnesses like we’ll not even look at you sometimes and what you just gossip like even even so much as exchanging a smile like like kind of like shows or really on that person. So yeah like the whole concept of disfellowshipping just doesn’t make much sense to me. I think that if someone is in these dire straits as far as their faith bill goes then you should be helping to support that and not completely shutting people away. You watch you all and it feels like you’re invisible.

[00:30:54] Because people just look at you like unless maybe the elders would maybe come up to you and I talk to you sometimes if they want to have a talk and see how you’re doing. But that was only like every few weeks or like a month or whatever. I mean I was a fellowship for six or seven months. They say six months. But they rarely let you in right back in six months. It seems like because I remember people who were good it who would get the skill that I remember from that day. I would like I would I would look out six months now why. OK. They should be back around this time but it was always closer to seven eight months that people would would come back. And I mean I made a concerted effort to come back. I just never missed meetings never missed books studies. And like I said it was pretty much just to make my friends wedding which I still did make. And I mean it was. It was to get back on good terms with all these people too because you know I lost all my all my friends from childhood once I got disfellowshipped yeah. Once I came back after seven months it like like it did seem like it just got wiped away that that feeling of animosity. That feeling of invisibility. But yeah. In the meantime it doesn’t feel like you exist. Well you kind of just are just floating through this hole. And then they’ll spread a bump shoulders with you. No one’s even looking in your direction. You feel like a ghost.

[00:32:13] And I’m like not just not just the part where were where people should be helping you pisses me off about this whole thing but just but just how did make you feel like I mean like like no one should ever be made to feel that way even even in the outside world like that supposed to be so big and bad. No one treats you let me back anywhere at night unless you’re a criminal or or something of some sort. But I mean like like I gave into a normal human urge. And then the Bible didn’t agree with that. So therefore I’m assigned to the end is seen by everyone as as as left to begin with. I don’t think it is. It just doesn’t make sense to me. I remember some elders would would come to me maybe every so month just a checkup and then see I’m doing our thing. They would really ask me any questions. Well I mean they would ask me questions but it was like they had like a guide book of questions. I was like oh who is Jehovah to you and then like was kingdom of God like it’s not like the questions they they go over with you for baptism but it kind of ask you how are you doing. And then I mean like I’ve heard that they can’t just observe you and make sure that you make it to the hall that you’re doing your study I guess like a Bible other. I mean they wouldn’t talk to you weekly by any means or at every meeting. And I remember actually to once I had once I had gone to so what I had done is I started going to a nearby hall when I was this fellowship. I don’t know why I did this.

[00:33:43] Actually like if it was just because I got disfellowshipped or what but I went to a nearby hall where I knew a few people but I could more easily sit in the back there and not see everyone I knew so so so like I like I kind of took a back door to that whole experience but I don’t know why I did that. Like getting back out maybe because it was closer to my place. And I mean I think it was part that I didn’t want to see everyone that I knew knew very well. So I went to a new congregation and they had a book study there too. Because I mean I don’t think that I don’t think that that any disfellowshipped people would go to a book study anyone’s house. I mean I’m sure this some kind of like like arbitrary de facto rule about but yes so that was that was my experience. The biggest falls apart never really had elders come to me and then talk to me too much. They would ask me questions here and they’re just doing. I had to write a letter early on to the elders and I was kind of just showing your remorse for what you’ve done and I think you do have to kind of echo those life those same sentiments. And in the second letter that you sent I’ll remember every setting and the other letters besides that. But I remember sending a like Molly reinstatement letter and the first time out kind of like I was I was kind of rejected which was like at exactly six months.

[00:35:07] But then like a month after that they were like OK we’ll let you back in. And I don’t know what that was for like oh no alcohol is just too bad like it. Because I mean I was a good writer growing up too so I could I could imagine that even if I didn’t feel genuinely empathetic about the whole situation about life about about what I was what I had done I wonder how they would even determine that. But yeah I was I was I was rejected the first time the second time I got back. But like I said that was like two weeks after my friend had been married. So by that point I missed the mark but I was just trying to get back in any way so I can just see everyone again and talk to everyone. I don’t think they would come to you. I think even if they saw you coming every week if you didn’t talk to them first like you could be going backwards for three years and they still would let you back in. Like I mean I think that you need to go to them first and then tell them like hey like I want to come back. One thing that I want to mention too is that I would never be in that situation if I wasn’t baptized at 12:00. And the witness is always trying to champion this idea that like oh Catholics baptized their love like their children when they’re babies. But you know like you can think for yourself and then and then like you can get baptized when you want. But like I said a million times it’s a popularity contest.

[00:36:26] So if you’re friends getting baptized at ten or eleven which are different you got baptized like nine or eight like he’s like the golden boy. And I hear you are not baptized not able to be behind the Ligia counter at the hall and then give our magazines to people like you’re just you know you’re like like you’re a little upon the in the in the kingdom whole world. So I never got myself into these extremely emotionally upsetting conditions had never made this or had I never had my parents and everyone else makes the decisions for me when I was way too young to make this decision. And I think that they really need to like I mean if they were to reform the religion because I don’t think they’re Jehovah’s Witness like I should be completely done away with. I think everyone should believe what they want to do but like I think that every religion can needs an overhaul and they need to look back at their values and just take out these extremely archaic ways of dealing with people and yeah like it just doesn’t have any doesn’t have any grounding in the current day reality or with how people should be treating each other. It’s just completely outdated. It’s funny that I did all this work to get back that I mean by doing all this work I mean just going to the hall and being shot every hour or like three times a week. But once I came back was I was maybe 18 and a half or something like it was. It was Wiggily come back. I think my friend I got married in June and I came back before the summer and it was like 2008.

[00:38:11] So yeah. So I didn’t think I was going to go to college when I was in high school. And that’s part of being a witness to is that they tell you that you died that you shouldn’t go to college that you shouldn’t seek higher education because they preach they that you should be out there pretty much evangelizing and going door to door. And you know spreading the Good Word of Jehovah or whatever. So I did find out I would go to college. So for about maybe six months after high school I was working at a factory that would be up at like 4:00 in the morning. Be there at 5:00 work until 5:00 in the wintertime. Like you don’t even see the light of day and you work for minimum wage like criminals at a factory like yeah this is not the life for me. I mean like it was fun. I never had like I have like a bad experience other than I have had to wait for. But I did think that that taught me the value of good hard work back then. But yes I was working a job at a factory and I was like Okay this is not life to me. And I had always like I was always drawing.

[00:39:14] I was always like trying to do my own little illustrations everything so I picked up a little bit of like 8p.m. VSS once I was in high school but I never did anything too much with it other than I edited my Myspace profile page but I figured what I wanted to do was get into some kind of art like graphic design or something Urd or something work on computers. I was always on my on my laptop back in the day and then I had photoshop and I would like this mess around that little bit. Saavik I’m going to be a graphic designer. And I remember what it was like kind of a struggle with my parents to get them to go out to get them to let me go to school special with my mom losing her losing her brother in Chicago as a teenager. So I remember talking with them about moving out of the city and then going to the school out here where I was going to the first day the Art Institute and they were kind of they were kind of has 10 abide first special with loans which they were actually right about. I should’ve never signed away with it for loans. But I mean I’m glad that that that I went to school definitely because I mean that’s what I’ve kind of made it like like made a living out of so far as making websites and I like doing design for people. Yeah that was around the time when I was mentally out at that time. I remember what my thought process was actually though so. I do remember before I moved to the city I was going to this like local college by my house and I took a world religions course. And I remember my teacher was like this like maybe like at the oldest like like like 35 year old guy. And I think one of the first questions that he ever asked in the class was he was like do you take the Bible metaphorically or literally.

[00:41:08] And then my first response was Oh well like literally of course you know it’s the Bible. And then he was like Okay so then you believe that like a guy god like God two of every species of animal. Load them onto a boat and they’re floated out like this huge ocean that engulfed the earth for 40 days and 40 nights. And then I was like Well I mean what you put it that way then you know I guess and the like and I guess that my life that my freight car despite tumbling down from there. And I remember for a little bit because I could I got back and forth with majors a million times in my first year of college. And I remember at one point I want to get in to like something to do with religion like I want to study religion because it’s always been really interesting to me even once I was in high school. I remember thinking that Islam was like was was like super interesting. I just thought how like like like like I mean how hot how submission is one of the basic pillars of of of Islam. And then you need to completely dedicate yourself to the faith. I thought that was kind of relevant my experience. And I remember that once I once had once I had dropped my parents that I wanted to study religion in college. They were really has tell about it and I thought that was weird too because I’m like how this is weird because you know I mean if you guys think that what you have is the truth why are you so scared to look other places you know.

[00:42:30] And I mean and I eventually didn’t go for that but I was the last week courses at my age that I could take my religion I would take. So I think that was one of the first lessons by which really should my faith. I mean now that like not that my faith was strong to begin with but that was kind of just like reaffirming what I had always felt and oh that was on 18 19. And then once I moved to Chicago and I was going to college out here I just completely stopped going. I just never. And I remember once I would come out here with my mom and then we would like to look for places. I remember the kind of cold and cold looking for came how to go to you. And we had like like I drove past a couple. But I mean I still have I moved out here I just stopped going and I never thought twice about it. I never I was never I never felt bad. I never felt like oh like I need to pray or anything but I’ve been praying eight years. I haven’t I haven’t gone to the whole eight years. I’ve read a watchtower. Eight years. Yeah I just completely just left and then I remember lay out lay down remember my parents asked me if I would if I was going to the hall what I first moved out. But I remember when I first got my ears pierced I like Gage my ears a little bit. And I remember what I first curious.

[00:43:49] My theory is I called them late late late at night because of this but I was part of them and I’d seen them every week and at that point I was like I got some news for you guys. And then my dad thought I got someone pregnant at first and that I was like I no not that bad but I pierced my ears. And I think that you know obviously I know it was a big deal but I made my parents have always been a better time of. They’re like Okay well it world like he’s going do what he wants. And there was never that much that much push back on me. I mean we did have a bunch of arguments like him ever in my first few years of being inactive not about me being inactive but just kind of like debating religion and philosophy and stuff. And I made it but it was always hard to talk about that stuff because anyone who believes in God that’s like their trump card is like a because I mean I could say you know there’s no there’s no rock layers that show that there was a great global flood like this. No. Kind of like all archaeological remains that could back this up but they just say the Bible said it and then that’s that’s that’s all they have to say. They only to back up with science or anything else. Gave my ears curious after that was that was like that was like my next stage of kind of being out of it because I knew at that point I couldn’t go back to the hole with my ears pierced you know. And I even like growing facial hair.

[00:45:18] He was such a big thing. But yeah but like like that was what I was completely out was my first year working out which is when I was 20. And so imagine that I had been shunned as a witness and that I was might be kind of like some I’ve shunned again it’s about Bastardo and active. I just moved to a new city. I didn’t have a lot of friends and my second high school class was new there. And then I’m going to college to this college that wasn’t that wasn’t exactly like a college experience it wasn’t my dorm is where you have to associate with people. It was like you would go to class and leave. So I was like really I’m my own out here. I remember my first year. I mean I would just work. I would come home from work and then I would like watch the office and bingeing on and then that with a cream treat Netflix day. So I had a bit of I was like pretty alone back then. I still made the choice to leave the religion because I just knew it like it wasn’t what I wanted to do with my life. And and and I knew that I had to take a step back and then see it from from you know a wide angle lens and then see what I actually thought about in it in context with other religions and actual culture and see if it it kind of reflected what I want to do.

[00:46:32] But and that there was a look at the conclusion that I came to I knew that I did do something else with my life they always frame it like people want to leave the organization just to go like live like debaucheries life and it and it’s not that way. I think it’s just that they see anything outside of being witness as being at the bottom. So I mean my favorite part of being out of the organization is you know yeah just being able to experience life for what it is like being able to get drunk and then not going to sell it because I knew some some some early like well. So I knew a couple older brothers in the congregation back in the day who were actually fathers of my friends and they would they would get disfellowshipped for for getting drunk I cinemagraph think they would do anything other than that. But just what I overheard that sound like it was but yeah I mean yeah. Like I think my favorite part of I also not having to attend to this faith. Three times a week. And then outside add to your own personal study then outside of that go door to door. It just takes up so much time and it makes sense that like there’s lot of witnesses who just like make a living for themselves as like as like cleaners where they go to offices and clean their homes and clean up whatever witnesses just franchise out a business model for home cleaning. They would actually be be like like I’ll be super attractive for them. They’ll be funny like spelled like like low stereotype loafers for the pretty way this is bad. Anyway I think my favorite part.

[00:48:09] I’d say about not being a witness anymore is there also that I’m not a popularity contest anymore. Like I mean I’ve always been I’ve always reacted really adversely to any kind of popularity contest. Whether it was it was at a high school or on the Internet or anything and then that was how being a what this was it was just everyone trying to be holier than thou and like and and then you’re constantly having to keep up with this image of yourself that you have to like look good. Like before Jehovah or before the elders or circuit overseer or are at the assembly earlier conventions or something. So I’m just glad I can live my life the way I want to and not have you. I mean obviously people are going to judge you. I mean being a witness is like is is you’re under the scope 24/7 at being just 24/7 and then just being able to live my life and not have to feel bad for it. That’s the best part. And it sounds like it should be a word. I mean it’s not like this shouldn’t sound like a human right. It is a human right. The whole concept of the pursuit of happiness is a human right. And I mean I just drifted away from you because you have to live by these rules. You have to answer to these people. Education. Make it make a make a hint towards going the other way or else working in a gang to shun you to end and then going to put you out like play off the group. I mean it’s just such a such a like tribal mentality.

[00:49:42] I mean that’s that’s probably like light light light like the route of religion is just like living in these tribes and trying to come up with with a shared understandings of the world amongst everyone else. And then it just becomes a problem once you get your own human rights violated or you get your own humanity violated. And that’s why I feel like what happens with witnesses sometimes even though I think they’re good people I think they’re all like really great people I think they’re well-meaning. I think they’re just misguided. I think that like they just fell down this track. And also to like witnesses you love these tactics that other codes used. And it’s not like it’s as simple as looking up what is called The Bite Model. I think it is the end. And then and then just seeing some some of these tactics that they use on you to keep you in the street without you even knowing why. I mean the first time that I read about love bombing I was like wow this is exactly like like like being a witness is everyone’s just like oh like like we have such love for our fellow brothers and sisters. And then why they preach this whole concept of like a gap a which was a Hebrew word for brotherly love I think. But if you go the wrong way and that if you commit a deadly sentiment and then you just fellowship well all that goes out the window. All that brotherly unconditional love goes out the window. So the unconditional love. Have a condition. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Like there’s a real life. Like a real strong divide of black and white in those terms.

[00:51:17] And I mean. And and as far as unconditional love it should never be that way. Yeah I was. That was kind of how that was just how it was. I mean no one ever saw anything outside of that was just how it was supposed to be my friends who were worldly. I’m still friends with nowadays. And as long as I don’t do anything terrible then will always be my friends I’m assuming you know as far as I’m crossed them or. Or you know yeah. Like life like commit some heinous crime. I wouldn’t expect them to ostracize me from their life. But yeah. But if you don’t believe in like I remember once I got that. That like that like seed of doubt planted in your heart by saying the statement told me when I was younger but I think that my second moment like that was when I was getting shot. So this was my first moment because this was before the previous one. But I remember I was going over the questions for baptism which is also just learning the answers and reciting them later. Like you don’t actually get stupid. Yeah but I remember getting to the question and it was like Do you believe that Jehovah’s kingdom is an actual place or like life or heart condition. And once I read that I was like a heart condition like like having something wrong with your heart. It’s not me. And I was young every time I like 12 and I still knew that and I was confused by that question.

[00:52:51] And I was going over it with my parents and then I think I was going over it with my mom and my mom like so my mom was always pretty like on the edge emotionally like she had depression and my anxiety growing up and why she just felt like crying. What I could answer that question. I always thought that was interesting because the like why the reason why she started crying was because she just like she thought I didn’t know the answer to a question which looks like a pretty basic question for being a witness. I just don’t understand the wording of it. I thought it meant a heart condition. And I remember that they called the elders because the elders were supposed to come and talk to me my three days on there something and then and then they were supposed to go with the questions with me. And then they’ve called them and they were like no he’s not ready blah blah whatever. And it had. And yeah like that put a major seed of doubt in my heart right there I was just like alright like all I have to do is is is is like recite these answers. But meanwhile you’re acting like me not being able to understand how this question is worded is like a deadly sin in itself. The more I think about it it impacts everything about me. I’m like I’m a super skeptical person and I think that was a byproduct of being a witness.

[00:54:20] Not that they teach you to be skeptical but you naturally become skeptical because so like being being a witness isn’t like being Amish or something like You look like you’re still living in a normal world mostly but you’re just being taught these like completely different things so I think that being a witness taught me to be skeptical because also I think what is about to is that it’s a kind of questioning big religion like Catholicism and like all those huge like Sexo Krrish of Christianity. And I think that it taught me to be skeptical. I will say that I got like I feel like always reading the Bible and always reading the watchtower and everything back the day Duffie did help my reading a lot because I remember I was reading from a very early age and I think it was as I think was because my parents always wanted me to follow along with watchtower and everything and then I had my book of bible stories. So I think that everything that I do nowadays is kind of shaped by it because yeah. Like I mean like I mentioned I’m a very skeptical person. I’m a very pessimistic person and I and I think that’s because being witness to because it’s kind of telling you that Satan runs the world and that kind of all hope is lost except for except for this one day that Jehovah should come down after you been being persecuted and the Great Tribulation but not until then are you going to actually like life ever feel true happiness. All this is just passing you know. So that kind of worldview kind of stuck with me. I have a very interesting view of religion. But I will say that I have came around recently and I’m still not religious but I do believe in some kind of higher power.

[00:56:09] I think that because one thing that that this has always point to as their proof of God is just how the universe and how the Earth is designed and how humans are designed and yeah everything is super amazing and we can’t understand it. But I mean we can’t just say how big space is right now. Like I mean if you’re trying to sit down and think about it like it’s ever expanding so you can never grasp how big space is like a like if you see a picture of of the sun next to the earth that you’re like holy crap that is just that is completely just dwarfs it. And then and then the sun as it is is a dwarf star I think too right. So like that’s a tiny light love like it like a tiny celestial body. In the grand scheme of things so I think there’s of things that we can’t understand and we’re not supposed to understand because we’re just humans like we’re like we’re a drop in the bucket as far as all time has gone. And I think that religion tried tries to tries to attribute motives and attribute some some like deeper meaning of things to the universe. By me I think I think that I think that we’re all kind of here by chance and I mean maybe there was some kind of higher power that that affected us and then kind of guided our evolution in the way that we went. But I think just this whole like black and white view of the world where someone just came down and then decided that they wanted to just arbitrarily make humankind and then have to follow his rules doesn’t doesn’t make any sense to me.

[00:57:45] But I think that the way that I look at everything I think I have a pretty like balanced view of everything I know that there’s two sides to every story. And like one thing it changed with me too was that you know I was never political at all like up until a year ago really and now I mean like all i do is listen to like political podcast and then like YouTube and everything. But growing up I never I was never the politics at all because that’s it. Yeah because you could because you’re completely removed maybe because because they’re so so their way of thinking is that why get card in politics of today’s world when we’re kind of just wait for Christ Kingdom you know. So that’s one thing that that kind of change me growing up but without completely broken from that. I don’t know what other things it’s really affected my everyday life. I mean I don’t think about it very often but once I can think about and talk about it I do love talking about it because it’s just it’s such a unique experience and it’s such a. Like I feel like I was kinda kinda like a blank slate when I first moved to Chicago because I was exploring a whole new world of just living the life on my own terms like. I think that that is the way that I look at everything. It is kind of shaped and and influenced by that in some way. I was always at the hip hop and that I know is that people of Chicago have been making blogs and stuff. I think that they were doing it right.

[00:59:18] I think that they were like putting out that that good content. So I so am I kind of have my small business for a few years and I mean now I’m more into the tech world. I do a lab by design and you design graphic design. I get more into that. What I try about my own company. I don’t think that I don’t think that being a witness stifled my like my life will to be an entrepreneur or to be anything else other than someone who goes door to door every morning. So I think I do have a lot of big plans a lot big dreams outside of being a witness. I don’t think that that’s ever going to affect what I do in the future. But I mean at the same time I do recognize that it has shaped me and it has molded me. I do think that I read you want to work in politics of some sort which is extremely ironic because you’re you know growing up I was not in politics at all. And I mean I I thought I was stupid when I was younger too. But I mean I want to get like I want to form some kind of business whether I make my own YouTube or like whether it’s like a new hip hop blog or just some kind of app idea. But I do want to do something that I can call my own the one day and hopefully it becomes hugely successful. And from there I was like I mean I would like to work in politics. I would like to work in my local community.

[01:00:38] And then from there I mean if it goes farther that too. Like working on like a higher office like at a state level that I’ll be okay with that too. I don’t like the way that politics are going nowadays and naive and just because of Trump but just because of how how everyone interacts with each other and I think coming from a religion where I’ve seen people be shunned and seen people kind of be ousted as the black sheep. I can see how that could happen in normal and normal society too. So I would like to do something to kind of kind of the kind of curb that like right now I kind of have to get my old life straightened out because you know also coming from being a witness. If you want to go to college then you can have a do so. All of that on your own terms. So that was why I took out loans because in high school I didn’t care about high school because I didn’t think what you kind of don’t think of that. That school matters that much. Because I mean you’re like cut it anyway you want but being a witness is and it’s like being in a doomsday cult because they’re constantly preaching to you that it’s coming soon and that at an end like we’re in the end times and whatnot. Yeah. Like I never took highschool too seriously and because of that I wasn’t able to do well. I really do super well in college. But I mean I know what my passion is.

[01:01:58] I know that I have a passion for design and I know how to make into a business. So from there I kind of just want to build upon that and then just do my own thing. And I mean it’s it’s kind of ironic that once I look back on it now that you know like I’ve been drawing since I was 5 4 years old and if I had known back then I would have made a living out of it. I would just tell my parents about them like a. But these meetings I’m a. My grandparents house or something. And if you guys want one to want to kick me out like like I just want to drive like work on designing things I want to be creative. And I’m like I’m excited to be a pushy parent and my kid because like I’ll be pushy on them but they’ll think me like like by the time that a teenager is like like like what is playing sports or having some kind of like talent or a hobby or play an instrument like I want to make sure that the time that my parents had me sitting at a meeting listening to like the same Bible talking points regurgitate over and over again I’m going to have them like like learn a skill. Families do as Wolf myself as I believe I can I’m I’m. I’m good. They had a big idea like. Like I can’t just work out like a simple 9 to 5 and then expect to make a big name for myself. I could kind of like work out my little building blocks towards that point.

[01:03:23] I mean I just want to come up with some kind of idea that it could be a home run that’s going to be like like whether it’s a successful app or like a or just any kind of a successful company. That’s just what I’m shooting for eventually. What I believe now I think that the Bible and God is just the metaphor for yourself and then trying to be God like is just trying to reach your highest form. So whether that be getting up and running at 5a.m. every morning or working at the business or working on your art or doing whatever it like. Usually we try to become a god but God and your own sense and then that includes being moral not harming other people but just achieving but just achieving the pinnacle of your happiness and your success should be what being a god is to everyone and you shouldn’t have to look to other people to determine what the terms of being a god are for you. Thank you for listening again. Feel free to leave a comment to today’s guest shunned podcast dot com on the post for this episode. Music is always an important way of marking the journey and often helps us to process feelings that we can’t express at the time. So visit the website to see the songs chosen by each guest to represent their personal journey. Speaking of music all music on this podcast has been performed by Poddington Bear if you appreciate this podcast. Please help others find it while leaving a five star review on iTunes which helps the show rank and get exposure. If you are shunned and want to tell your story email me through the contact form on the Web site or if you just want to say hi.

[01:05:11] Feel free to do the same. If you’d like to know more about me and the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses I encourage you to listen to my nine part series on the cult at thisjwlife.com we’re on the podcast called thisJ.W. life. Remember that those around you may be going through something like this and that you have no knowledge of. So give them the benefit of the doubt love others do no harm and go be happy.

Emily Is Shunned By Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:14] Welcome to shunned the monthly podcast where we expose the religions that use shunning as a method to coerce and control. These are real stories as told by the person that live them telling these stories takes courage and the strength to be vulnerable. After this week’s episode I encourage you to go to shunnedpodcast.com and leave a message for the person that told their story by commenting on their episodes. I’ve told mine and it means a lot to hear from people that can relate. Each person will be able to read and respond to your messages of encouragement. Now let’s listen to this month’s real life story of being shown. My name is Emily. I’m 33 years old. I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I’m Shantou. I was born in error as far as I can think back I would be in Syria fourth generation on my mother’s side. My father came into the religion as a teenager so there were no generations on his side. So my mom it made me farther than that but I can’t talk any of them to find out. It was just our whole way of life as a child. I didn’t know anything different. Just from very early on that we went to the Keenum ha and our friendships were all within our family and within the congregation. So that’s all right now for a really long time. Now when I first went to school I remember I don’t remember anybody actively telling me at that time to be an afraid people outside the truth I guess. But I remember being a very late mass vs. them mentality.

[00:02:30] They were different than me and we had something that they didn’t. And you know when I was in elementary school one of my one of my earliest memories is you know of course that’s when you’re first exposed to holidays and you know standing up for the Pledge of Allegiance. I remember kindergarten I was told by my mother to not stay at so I did. And one of the kindergarten age was very offended that I didn’t stand and I remember her coming and grabbing me by the arm and lifting me up to stand and you know as a five year old I was so upset because I didn’t understand what I had done wrong. I thought dad that’s what I was supposed to do and so that from a very early age you feel different. You feel those eyes on you. And I was always really uncomfortable when that I never felt like I was doing the right thing. I always felt like I was doing the wrong thing. One of the other things I remember you know was when everybody was painting Easter eggs I wasn’t allowed to maintain easter eggs so I had to paint a lamp which was still kindness really and that I had a big reason that I brought home and I just remember feeling bad like why can I make an egg you know like it just didn’t make any sense to me. But it was just obviously you know I was the only one in my class.

[00:04:07] I do have siblings but of course they’re different ages so I was the only one in my class that had to make different pictures and different sculptures and things like that and I never liked that my dad was raised in a Catholic home. And he was one of five children and his his parents divorced and he came from a broken home. And when he even experimented with drugs and he was just looking for something and when he was 17 he worked at a mechanic shop and there was a Jehovah’s Witness that worked there. And that’s how he got introduced you know and you know he actually studied with him became a witness that my mom there after and the rest is history. But as a result of that with my father having come into it later in life and he actually was disfellowshipped later on in life and I think the tone was always it’s kind of hard to explain. My mom was like hardcore in it to get brainwashed my dad was a little bit more real. So I had this struggle growing up between like my dad encouraged me to go to college encouraged me to play you know in the band encouraged me to do extracurricular activities whereas my mom was so close to. So I was always very confused. Daniel’s like my general in childhood wasn’t used that I felt like I had to choose which one was cracked and you know I don’t think I knew him when he was into it hardcore. I think by the time we came along there was already a lot of problems that he had with that religion. So my mom you know was one of them was my dad. I think all he would have wanted out of her was her to say you know listen you’re mine.

[00:06:09] My husband and I we’re going to get through this but it was very much like the minute he started to stray she was not having any you know what does that mean. Now is a married woman I can see how hard that would be. So there was a lot of my shit. I don’t feel like I had a bad childhood. I mean my dad took care of us. He worked very hard. I don’t feel like we ever really wanted for anything but that unemotional spiritual connections were so la that it affected me throughout my life. You know I did all this things and I remember going to serve us as a child and hate it and was always uncomfortable. I always felt like we were kind of used because you can say no to a child. You know so I’ll always I’m uncomfortable going on service. But as far as you know to go back I was with my dad and his struggles we switched congregations three times as a child because my dad was always thinking well maybe it’s the elders that are the problem. So it’s like big friendships were very hard to come back. As a result I never I mean I had someone a friends but we never hung out outside of the Kingdom Hall you know. So as a result of that my desire was always to be friends with people in school because I actually saw them from them you know so my grandfather my mother’s dad he was an elder. You know so we were very involved when it comes to that.

[00:07:53] And you know going to the meetings it was you know my dad was disfellowshipped when I was 11. So I actually don’t remember much prior to that. I don’t have it for that blood get out. I don’t remember a lot prior to that I do know though that was our line. I mean that’s what we did. We didn’t do things outside of that because my dad like I said he was always kind of on the edge. And like I said some humor would be maybe a little bit more appropriate than it should have been. So like I always felt like I was begging when I was around these people like I had to pretend like I was super godly and deep down inside I wanted to laugh at things that weren’t supposed to be veining. You know so I into the. That’s why I’m like I don’t know that it was necessarily them it was me. And I didn’t you know I never really know Kadak dad. There any awkward silences when the kids in the creation it it was for me my silence me because I’m always like hey what can I say next. What should I say next. How can I. I’m like I’m not listening to music that I probably shouldn’t be. You know I was I was vague I don’t feel like I’m down with the religion itself much later in life. I felt like I was in Maine you know because that’s kind of the way I was. You know I never never can say to my mom.

[00:09:30] Now I feel like I just hijacked that with these people because she would have had a gap you know so it was like I constantly felt like I was wrong. There was something wrong with me. You know whether it was Satan or whatever it was it was me. These people were all doing the right things and because I didn’t fit in there was something wrong with me. My dad was this notion that that he and I remember that night because my mom would not allow us to get to the king of Homs the night that he was announced and my dad did go to the king and mom. Like most people don’t know and when he announced it he stood up and had some choice words and then he hugged he found himself out of there. So I think my mom nil. There was going to be a scene and so we weren’t allowed to go. I just remember feeling so sad and then this had happened to him an and that was I didn’t know which way to go. I didn’t know where to put these emotions and so it was like I kind of reached towards my mom’s side and really pursued being baptized which is ridiculous when I think of it now because I was so young but I was just over twelve years old when I got baptized so very soon after that happened I kind of jumped into it and you know it’s one of the things I regret the most which is I’ll say bad now is it. And I I think about it now and I’m never actually really asked my dad because I kind of wonder what he was thinking in that moment. And if I had to guess he probably was not very happy.

[00:11:26] But he’s also one of those people that he lets you choose what you want to do. He doesn’t stand in your way. I did try some pioneering. You know when I first was to baptize then you know that kind of stuff. But you know I don’t know. Now I did try super hard you know and that kind of stuff I didn’t do it again because it was what was expected of me. And I got to say my mom. We live in Maryland and my mom moved to New Jersey which was about six hours away when I was a senior in high school long lived out. My dad made me dance with her family and that we had known in the end the carnation that had sent me Deb over to New Jersey. So I remember kneeling. I was only a senior. My brother was a sophomore in high school and I remember feeling sad. Of course you know then that my mom was leaving but there was this intense relief when she laughed because I finally felt like I can be you I want to be because my dad at this time was and was still this knowledge. So I began dating I had a boyfriend for the first time that I mean I had like boys all along but they were completely hidden you know never discussed and I felt like I was the queen of a double life for really grilling long time and I hate them because I wish that I could have stood up and just then this is I am and these are the people that I like but I did not have the combatants.

[00:13:17] I was not equipped to have the confidence to be that way. And so yeah I mean I got a boyfriend for the first time and you know my mom was like our conversations became news weather and sports. That was all we talked about we did not you know not now nine nine nine. You did not. Now the people that I hang out with on a daily basis she did not know the person that I was. So I would say from the day she made doubt that when the initial first time I stopped being a witness noticed me. But I it’s funny because I feel like at the time I thought I had discovered this amazing they’re all just wanting to a made in a way I wouldn’t get just on the shelf and I could still have my family. But I didn’t have to be a witness. And that worked for a really long time. And I thought it was the greatest thing ever. I still at 11 anymore I went. So I dated that you know was like my first boyfriend I dated him through the remainder of my senior year all through my college years which was I did two years of college. And then we broke up and it was a devastating time in my life. And at this point my mom had become privy to the fact that I had this worldly boyfriend and we broke up because she had a swigged in there and she asked me to get right by Jehovah and to live with her. And she had me right at the right time. And I thought what else do I have to lose. And then I die in my head.

[00:15:05] I’ve never actually given it a real shot. Maybe now’s the time. You know so and it was almost like see what the world has done to you. You know how upset you are. And you know it you it’s because you left Jehovah. This is why the way these things are happening to you when you’re 19 20 years old you’ve just experienced the first heartbreak of your life. It’s in me. Has you been doing wrong you’ve been sitting all this time. And so I thought no. So I had three jobs at the time I quit. Every single one of them that I’ve had that I’m six hours away in with my mother. And we can’t call these two years the period of trying because I really tried and I started a NASCAR nation. And let me tell you I don’t know I guess you probably have them first like you did show meeting that I had was because as a result you now had been pretty much out of the religion. Not this fellowship just out for the last 18 years. They wanted to now everything. Down let me tell you how uncomfortable it is for a 19 year old girl to sit in a room with three old men trying to ask you exactly what sexual things you have done in the past two years in detail. I remember my mom telling me you know to me you know I thought it was coming yeah I’ll start now nobody has to know anything my mom you know she will tell them anything. Well that was obviously wrong because she must have told them that I had a boyfriend.

[00:16:51] She of course didn’t know details of she. I mean that’s probably the gist of her knowledge was that I had one though I was told You know these three elders they want to meet with you and that don’t worry you’re not going to get disfellowshipped. And you know what she said that it was almost like that had hadn’t even crossed my mind that that might have been on the line every day. And she and I’m like well what do they want to talk about. She’s like well they just you know they just want to come to you about anything that’s been happening while they are gone and I didn’t agree with that. But I didn’t know at the time I didn’t have enough strength to say I’m not guilty. So I did. And I’m sitting there. Now granted I actually know a few of these people like I said my mom moved up there with a manly friend. So I had known some of these people and I’m sitting with one of them bothers me and I’m looking at him and he’s asking me now have you ever had sex with me on. When I had and I lied because I was terrified telling them that. So I’m like Okay this is what I’m going to do. They’re not going to believe me if I say we didn’t do anything so I’m going to just tell them their minimums then you know slide on by because that’s the thing like I wasn’t trying to be deceptive I was scared.

[00:18:20] You know they’re telling my mom throwing out the disfellowshipped word and I’m like well that’s what’s going to happen if I tell them that so I’m scared. So I dug a hole there asking Was there any penetration I’m looking at them like none of your business absolutely 100 percent none of your business. I’m like yeah. You know. Very uncomfortable extremely uncomfortable. That’s all they cared about. The only thing they asked me about this relationship with this boyfriend and how far we went. That’s the only thing they want to discuss. At the very end of then they inform me that you know by the grace of God they’re not going to publicly reprove me but they’ll just privately refrain in thinking to myself like seriously you guys honestly feel like there was a possibility that I’m going to show up in this nation. And the first thing that we’re getting here about me is that I’m publicly reproved or does fellowship. They said I felt like they were like they were near me a solid yet and we’re just going to try to leave Marina so that for me that meant I couldn’t go out in service which I didn’t care about. I did want to do that anyway. And I couldn’t answer and the meaning also was fine. And like thinking you know wipe it off the IPO Brown my you know I I did there’s I mean there’s still that part of me in the back of my head that was like you weren’t completely honest you probably deserved DVDs knowledge you get out. So there’s always that. You know that’s from a very young age that feeling. I’ve never really been true to who I am.

[00:20:17] Never felt comfortable to me that way as a result of the fear that they instilled in me from a very young age. You know I was sidebar and you know it’s funny because I came home from that judicial meeting and there was an elder in there particularly that I said to my mom this is one of the first times I remember Blake really opening up to her and I said you now I said I can’t put my finger on it but one of them I said I was just I had a bad feeling about her. She said What do you mean she gets defensive. This guy was you know him and his wife were a friend of hers. And I’m like well I said I don’t know. I don’t know. I said there’s just something about him that says Gail. And she got very angry at me and was like you know he is an outstanding brother and elder and I’m like I’m just telling you my gut tells me something about him isn’t right. Two years later he was removed as an elder for cheating on his wife. And I remember I wanted to say something to her so bad but I was like I’m going to let it down because I didn’t know that that’s what it was.

[00:21:29] But I just felt like you know when somebody I don’t know how to even describe it to this day when he the way he was and loving me the way he was saying I’m not like he is not any better than I am so you know that happens to me and you know I’m thinking I got you know I got a name you know I’ve skirted on by here and you know I began making friends and then I will say for the first time in a way this the friendship that I created when I lived in New Jersey were the most real. There were so many more people available to me there in the little town I grew up in. And I did genuinely have so much in line with these people. I felt like they were more diverse. There was more. I want to use the word leniency like you know every congregation is different which is funny but I’m now more able to be myself than I. But you know what I find funny is one of the people that ended up becoming one of my absolute best friends we met as we became closer we discovered that me and her weren’t all that different. And she’s been a scholarship three times to that. So it’s just it’s and you know it’s sad because we actually don’t speak anymore. Has kept giving. She kept getting Roback. I mean even when she would get disfellowshipped them I’ve talked to her like nothing ever happened. You know she would say you know I do I do love Jehovah and I would think in my head. Do I right. I just never felt that it was just you. I always felt like this image of Jehovah was not a loving God it was someone to me. Right. It was someone that was condemning me. I always felt guilty. I never felt like I couldn’t say I love Jehovah and.

[00:23:29] So what she would say that to me I’d be like we heard you telling her first not to like but yet you now but yet you have that and I don’t know. That would make me yell again like now then that I just said did anybody really and that me now. The 33 year old he had 21 years old he was. What’s wrong with Maine yet again yet again. What’s wrong with meaning even though I was still there when all the things I would say the only thing. Back in those two years of my life that I think about the friendship that I created with these people and the religion stuff in the background. I was not there my period of trying. You know it was Daryl not dare I say one of the things that was the catalyst for when I started that day I can’t do this anymore was you know remember you know my dad who lives in Maryland. He’s still a fellowship at the time and I of course still had a relationship with my daddy and I’m daddy’s girl and now they’ll have that I had an elder approach me at the meeting with some articles. Then he starts to stand up to me and I don’t look at him and then he starts to say about how you know when I lived in the home with my dad having a relationship was understandable because he lived in Long Island now that I don’t. Should I still have a relationship with my father. And I stopped them and I started to have been outed when I put my hand up and that I don’t need any of that. He had looked at me and I said because there is nothing you can say it’s going to make me stop talking to my dad.

[00:25:18] I laughed away feeling so empowered to a certain degree but so man no man. Then somebody had the balls to come to me and tell me to not have a relationship with my father. I mean and that’s why I say Langhi even if the child an intelligent person would come in the hall with the little girl he’d do the sitting in the chairs waving at them. I did not understand. And I don’t think I mean it could be heading in intellectually described why I felt that way it was just something deep inside of me that said how can you do that to somebody. How can you in any way. Yeah I know it’s funny because that outer never once said another word to me about a song what surprises me but I was land. I remember sitting in an assembly one Cong’s with an older lady and she said I heard they’re going to make marrying outside of the truth. Disfellowshipping offense and I just looked at her. I was like 15 at the time this was right before my mom moved and I remember thinking no one. How do you just make something in advance all of a sudden out of nowhere. No till I’ve felt so scared being had I knew even then the chances of me marrying a witness were slender at I was never as this day have never officially been dissolved. I’m probably should have been by their standards for sure. Speaking out on this you know it’s kind of funny because I’ve always said you know I’ve never really you know I’m married now and I’m not doing anything that I should be scholarship for.

[00:27:01] And then it’s like it dawned on me what a posting is like now. Well I didn’t think about Nana now but now like I just I felt like I always kind of heard it. And so that’s why I say that you know from when I left New Jersey and Ohio I was never a scholarship but I didn’t. I never went I never walked back into Kandahar I think I tried to go to a memorial every once in a while but like I was really just to please my mom that was you know I I never stepped back in so I was never really officially shunned at that point. My sister and I have an older sister who is four years older than me and you know my whole life. She got married at 19 to another witness. And so that’s her story. My brother is a year and a half younger than me who’s never been baptized. This is where the interesting Libo crazy is that my brother as a result of never having been baptized is free to all of my family’s love but I’m not and he is certainly not on anything by their standards. My brother actually lives with. It’s frustrating to me because there is this level. It’s totally unfair. I mean he is held to such a different standard because I feel like I guess in their world they still have a chance with him because he was never baptized they could still aim for that goal somehow. I love my brother obviously but my brother has had addiction problems as far as I know. He’s still currently does.

[00:28:52] And you know all of these he is into music so he performs in bars every night you know working towards a music career that he you know he has a girlfriend who of course is worldly and she’s invited into their home and the only difference is that he wasn’t dunked underwater. And the other only difference is and I feel like any sense my anger and his urine I tried you know and that’s where a lot of my frustration lies that you like I so tried to do the right thing. Well what they think is the right thing. And I have done nothing but punished for an end. So hard to know. I mean I feel like I love my mother. I deal. But the respect I have. I mean at this point in our lives I have almost zero respect her teenage son. Fast forward a little bit here like you know and this is you know of course my mom lives six hours away I’m home I’m living with my dad. My brother was still living around here at the time. And I ended up of course then I get into a relationship that becomes pretty serious. We we’ve moved in together and we end up having my first child. Let me tell you how common it was. I actually not even the one that broke the news to my mom because I was like so scared. But when I found out I was pregnant when there was there was that terrifying feelings. There’s no way I could pretend I don’t have a boyfriend anymore.

[00:30:35] He obviously had that feeling of relief that Okay now they’re gone and now I don’t have to answer his phone call if I happened to be visiting with them. I don’t have to talk about everything by him because it’s going to be so clear that I have a white Brandt’s. There was this feeling of relief till you know my dad actually was the one who told my mom and she called me and I was I would say I was pleasantly surprised she called me. She was crying and she was you know she wouldn’t say she was like a very sad and over into the conversation but she wasn’t shaming me for and which was very surprising. You know I was surprised but I thought hey you know and the same goes and you know with my sister it was kind of the same kind of thing. You know she already had some kids well but you know there was really no shaming more. And so I have my child both my sister and my mom came and were in the room with me for my first pregnancy and birth and everything and it was just weird because like I said I still have all these underlying resentments to my mother. Well you know she was caught. It was uncomfortable but she was there. Well you know I take that back. But a year later me and my oldest child’s mother split up. This was a very hard time for me because although we weren’t ever married you know living together and having a child with someone I felt very much like again. So at this point my brother has now since moved in with my mom in New Jersey.

[00:32:20] We are up and she says you can come stay with us. I think I’ll try them. I take my son. I go to New Jersey. I’m there. I’m not like I was treated so sudden LA when I got there my mom not once asked me how I was feeling. You know like I said this is a pretty devastating time for me in my life. I feel like I’m going through this divorce I have one year old who’s nine with his father right now in this tiny two bedroom condo and I’m on the couch. You know the room I was getting was on the couch just like I said I don’t know what I expected. I shouldn’t have expected anything but I guess I just kind of felt like the second class citizen that they took. And I got into a fine physical fight with my brother which is not something that I’m proud of. Not a person that I have and I have become a person that I never expected it as a result of all these feelings. And they they put on me I got my mom I remember my brother and I we we’re like any other states I’ve flushed him down here to the ground and my mom screamed and told me she was going to call the cops on me. And I was just like I just lost it. I mean I took all the pictures that she had of me in the house and throwing them on the ground acting extremely mad. I laughed at like 5:00 in the morning. I drove home with them when I went to get my side. She said Don’t you think he’s better off here with me.

[00:34:01] And I just was like I mean all the words are flying like mad mad on top of everything. Now I’m not a competent father. So I’m leaving. Like I said this is a six hour drive I leave it like 5:00 in the morning. She never once called me I’d say six months passed before I ever heard from her again. See if I was okay to see it. We made it home to apologize to anything dead dead Simons Mama any time. Our relationship has gone through these little cycles. The first person to reach out has always been me and Dedman than you now. I’m done reaching out to somebody that is totally fine with not talking to me or seeing my child or any of the above. It’s sad because when I had gone home you know my child’s grandmother you know she was like talking to me on his dad’s side. Yeah she’s like I just don’t understand she never even called even just to make sure that the baby was okay. I’m like now it’s not how she works. You know that’s how normal people work. You know I remember around this period of time of my life. It’s so sad to think about but I remember I asked my father and was like this mom. Did she love me when I was a child. And he just kind of looked at me he was like your mom’s changed a lot. You know it was like I couldn’t fathom I’m holding my little baby in my arms. And I’m thinking I can imagine ever doing this again.

[00:35:49] So I was like that unconditional love does not exist you know with my dad through all of his struggles and the choices that he’s made that I may not agree with or you know that have affected me in some way. I feel like I need to be in the in a ditch somewhere and call him and he would say Where are you. I’ll get you know it’s like. But my mom these basic name. Now it’s funny I think about things as we go. I remember when I wanted to go to prom my senior year of high school. This was my junior year. My dad took me to buy my dress my dad took me to get my hair done and the night of prom. My mom threw a Bible Lamming. She died maybe like some kind of osmosis would you. So rebidding in our lives I look back on these like I look at these women have relationships with their mother and I’m like I have never in my life have that. And it sucks because I felt like I said I knew like it affects me so deeply. It affects the way I’m parent it affects the way I’m a wife. You know this idea of conditional love it changes Eli Lake it makes you feel like you know somebody they could leave you in the drop of a hat because your mother doesn’t love you. Who’s going to cause problems.

[00:37:15] You know it’s been a struggles in my marriage and my husband God bless them on how he’s cut through the ringer sometimes because my insecurities have so deep all Greg from that and they’re still happy been it’s not even like you know I can say with your old in some way it’s still a year left. How did you ever say you try to deal with that. You know you try to accept the tide of reason now but there’s no reasoning out the insanity yet how I don’t think I ever really I would I don’t think I would have called it being shunned back then. I just thought I was there. Now my mother’s hatred towards me. I. You never really know because is why I say like it wasn’t until recently that I really started to kind of I mean I knew I didn’t want to be a part of the religion. There were things I absolutely didn’t agree with. But I still had that fundamental feeling that it was me that I just don’t fit into it and I’m doing something wrong it was like I would often say you now I think that what they just trail I just can’t deal with. You know I would say that a lot I. I wasn’t any religion. I didn’t I wasn’t seeking for anything else because I thought that was the true idea. It was yeah it was a struggle you know I remember that way when I had in high school I remember he invited me to go to his church. He was a Pentecostal church. I don’t know much about them but their real Holy Rollers know tons. And he invited you to come with him on Christmas and I walked in there and I’m like a lightning bolt was going to hit me. I was so uncomfortable get not they.

[00:39:11] I mean like the Kingdom Halls have no windows there says Guffey there. You know you raise your hand to speak. You know like mine was like what on earth did it. This is horrible. I thought it was horrible. And again we think it almost reconfirmed to me that the truth was the truth because it was so weird and so different. I don’t feel like that now but I’m course in the time you know it was such it was so strange to me that concept of people on me and speaking in tongues any types that they felt in any other religion I was I was just I was just living my life feeling like a failure that really Halan nouns. And now like I you know my own mother is ashamed of me you know just the kind of Mollet you know not only was it my mother my mum my maternal grandparents you know and my sister. You know we all had the same kind of relationship very strained to a certain degree. We could talk about things like me and my sister Guettel would get along fairly well as long as we weren’t talking about anything serious. I was always just you know we could laugh about these jokes about things but we didn’t really discuss the religion whatsoever and that how we were able to be sisters we couldn’t talk in depth about other things but not that you know she might say in passing oh you know I can have one service today and I’m feeling okay and it would just be like you know we did talk about it but of course I knew she was still there.

[00:40:49] Fast forward into my life I end up with you know my now husband but we got pregnant before we were married and I’m like yea I am again I’m here and I call my mom like I know one thing and my dad were abandoning my mom all this time no mom she never called me my entire pregnancy. I had the baby and he was about 6 months old and I sent her a message and said Don’t you want to know your grandson. And she wrote back. Of course I Dale how she she’s waiting for me. Mixed messages to me. You know it’s like you’ve literally just not spoken to me for about 18 months of my life. I’ve had I had a child in that amount of time. And not only that I have another child who was on this board and I have you haven’t spoken to or asked about in the last 18 months. You claim to have loved so much. You know like shun me they shun you now and so there’s that anger inside of me like how dare you do this to me. But how dare you do this. And then it got more intense for me the older and then I had children because I couldn’t understand it it became more of what you know what am I doing wrong. I was able to say what is she doing wrong like what is wrong with her. You know in these neighborhoods to kind of get in there.

[00:42:22] So you know we slowly started this little bit of you know she comes to visit she brings the presence she’s the Grammy everybody loves Grammy and I’m just like dagger eyes you know like I now feel that way when I’m around you haven’t had it like yet again. Had I not reached out would she have said anything like that really. Probably not. Yes. So I get married to which my grandparents on my mother’s side. They call me one day and they ask me who was marrying us. And I told them that it was the pastor from my husband’s church that we weren’t getting married in a church. I decided to get married in an outside location because I thought they can come to that right. My grandparents told me that they could not come if a pastor was marrying his high bring down. I mean like Loston again another dramatic huge loss then I call my mother. And I’m telling her like how do you believe they’re not coming. My mom says why haven’t made up my mind yet if I’m coming. What’s even worse. I don’t think I’ve ever screamed as loud into a fan as I did that day like I was holding it in front of me screaming into it so angry and then it was like. In the end my mom and my sister actually asked me in my wedding and she turned me down so fine but she did come in came and my mom did come and it was like all that did was show me that you have choices in this where I’m with my grandparents. They weren’t told that they could not attend. They chose not and my mom’s explanation you know like any other thing with the witnesses it’s Bowlby like she just said something about the cotton gin gang.

[00:44:22] You know so you know I say she’s shown up for that. Yes. Yes she did. She might as well not have. You know it’s like when you have those moments beforehand where she had to think about it and come out. So mom worked for me and so you know like I said we’re still alive along with this you know late relationship. I hold my mind and my get pregnant then with now my third child now this time I’m way less than unmarried I can do things like Intel or my foundation redeem myself you know I would like that feeling of guilt that I never called and Poder myself so I was like I’ve got a new idea. And you know she was happy. It was like and I finally have arrived. It might not be a witness. I’m not living in sin. I’m a good person. You know I’m not I don’t do drugs I don’t smoke I don’t drink. I have a good job I have a I’m feeling like she should be so proud of me. She’s 19 you know. So I come and find out I have my I have my daughter. She’s not able to come till about like a week later she comes and it was the worst visit we’ve ever had. My mom barely spoke to me. She barely paid attention to my daughter. She sat on the couch. There was just so weird and so uncomfortable. And that was the last time I spoke to her.

[00:45:56] She left my house that day and I’ve never heard from her said she’s not seen a single as far as I now as Marcy now goes I have Facebook and Instagram and you know how it works. You don’t have any friends anymore and they can still see things. So I assume she’s probably seen pictures of my children but there has been zero conversation said she walked out that day. You know outside of this dynamic would you do a pretty big dynamic it’s a huge part of who I am. But outside of that I live a happy life you know and that I’m hard headed like I need to stop focusing so hard on what they’ve done to me. I am happily married I have three new normal children and I have a job and you know it’s like I take those things for granted because I feel like I’m so flawed in so many ways emotionally and spiritually I feel like I am so far behind. But I was tired of feeling like that you know and so it like I’ve tried so hard to work on myself and to let that go. But you know like I said earlier it is hard to do that when it’s happening it’s like you know it’s like a sense of there’s not really closure. I get worried every day I’m going to get a call that one of my grandparents passed away that my mom has passed away that something had happened then I will be able to make things right. But I guess I’ve decided it’s like you know I’m here I’m here. If they want to talk to me I’m a glutton for punishment.

[00:47:35] You know I always let them back you know not you know my daughter trying to explain this to people that haven’t lived it is so funny because they just can’t fathom and you know I’ve tried to fathom it in my mind where I’ve said okay and now say this is like you believe you believe this to your whore and you believe that your children are going to die in Armageddon and they’re not going to come back. And you know so I’m thinking and I’m trying to put myself in my mom’s position and I’m thinking OK you think the only thing you can do is cut yourself off completely and hope and pray that they come back. And then it’s like oh hey hey kind and kind of see and then I’m like none of us have died. Now with everything you know we don’t know 100 percent what happened to us when we die all we know is that right now that’s where I can’t get past. Now you know ondan Mary three years and my husband has a very strong Christian leaning slightly you know integrated my way like into his church. And yet you would probably understand how hard at first for me. But I have I feel like I’ve gone there and you know the way I’m treated today in that church is Miles about the way I live and it’s like how can they say that I mean none of us know 100 percent. I get that. But how can they claim to have the truth. When I truly like these people do love me.

[00:49:27] They do accept me they don’t know nor do they care about what I’ve done since that’s not between me and them you know and so it’s it’s really changed the way that I you know I would’ve never guessed that I could have said I’m a member of another church when I was young you know and all those years I wasn’t seeing anything like that but I really wasn’t feeling it when it happened it just kind of fell into my lap. I went with them because I thought what else do I have to lose. Now at this point I personally do not want my children raised with a faith with a belief and you know they don’t even understand like you know my youngest has no idea who her grandparents are but I’m on my mom’s side and my little one I don’t think that either and my oldest one it’s like we never really knew her that well anyway. So it’s sad because the questions are going to come one day and I don’t know quite how to answer it yet. Thankfully they’re still young because I couldn’t bring it out you know and it’s just a shame they have left me with little tools to navigate this world and I feel angry for that. Now begun to try to heal as a result of not having any conversations with dad. I wish that it was. But I’m not the time you know how I have a conversation with one of them. It was a reminder that normal. Like I said I found it very interesting when I saw that video running. I was like How did they not know that they did what is supposed to be the truth doesn’t have new life.

[00:51:27] I don’t I just want to raise my family and I want them to know how much they are loved no matter who they are they are afraid however they want to be it to me that the beautiful thing because I would never give up. You know me and my husband are working hard to be able to take vacations. You know you just want to live life to the fullest. I want to live my life not afraid of everything that’s going to happen now. And I wish that my family could be a part of that. And you know maybe they will be one day but if they are expecting me to be so miserable that I come back that’s not what’s happening here. You know so yeah I’m I’m getting to a good place you know as a result of many years of contemplating what has happened which is good I would have never expected that years ago. Thank you for listening again. Feel free to leave a comment to today’s guest shun podcast dot com on the post for this episode. Music is always an important way of marking the journey and often helps us to process feelings that we can’t express at the time. So visit the website to see the songs chosen by each guest to represent their personal journey. Speaking of music all music on this podcast has been performed by Paddington Bear. If you appreciate this podcast please help others to it by leaving a five star review on iTunes which helps the show rank and get exposure. If you were shunned and wanted to sell your story email me through the contact form on the Web site or if you just want to say hi.

[00:53:28] Feel free to do the same if you’d like to know more about me and the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses I encourage you to listen to my nine part series on the cult. At this J.W. life dot com we’re on the podcast called this J.W. life. Remember that those around you may be going through something like this and that you have no knowledge of. So give them the benefit of the doubt love others do no harm and go be happy.

Jerry The ex-Mennonite – Full Episode.mp3

[00:00:14] Welcome to shunned the monthly podcast where we expose the religions that use shunning as a method to coerce and control. These are real stories as told by the person that lived them telling these stories takes courage and the strength to be vulnerable. After this week’s episode I encourage you to go to shun podcast dot com and leave a message for the person that told their story by commenting on their episode. I’ve told mine and it means a lot to hear from people that can relate. Each person will be able to read and respond to your messages of encouragement. And now let’s listen to this month’s real life story of being shown. My name is Jerry. I’m 38 years old. I was a Holleyman man and I mean I am shom. I was raised in a hole in a church by my parents and I was a toddler. Our church was the only true church. My grandparents on both sides raised Irish and joined the Holman’s when they were adults. It’s interesting to note that they are shunned by the Irish for joining the Mennonites Fishell they are the whole of the church. His Church of God in Christ Mennonite two and a half years ago I and my wife made the decision to take the baby and leave everything familiar that we knew only lie outside. We knew that we would be shunned and misunderstood. Our lives would never be the same but we reached a point where we could no longer stay I’m the oldest of four children two boys and two girls. My earliest memories are in Nigeria Africa when I was 3 years old.

[00:02:07] My parents volunteered to go to the mission in Nigeria. We were there for two years then and then for two more years. When I was we lived in a bush village. My dad’s job was to help with the church plant there. I remember going to church with my dad teaching the natives children songs like This Little Light of Mine running over. Building up the temple. I remember driving through the village in our car and the Native children running alongside the cars shouting my name. My life was very sheltered and I felt cared for and safe. When I was nine years old I noticed what the preacher was preaching for the first time I heard him talk about how and how if we were born again that we would or Sarkin for the time that it made me I was going to hell if I didn’t repent and get born again tell my mom about what I was feeling. She told me that I should pray confess my sins and give my heart. I did what she said but nothing happened. It was just kind of like trying to do it. I felt very painful for several weeks. One day I got so sick of it. I went and prayed really in desperation and it all left. I felt for peace. I knew I was forgiven and that I was saved. I immediately told my parents they were silent all the preachers about it. We were still in Nigeria at that time. Several of them visited with me and asked me what happened so I was happy to tell them all about it.

[00:03:52] I overheard them telling my parents that even though I was so young they could tell it was the real thing. I felt like a celebrity. We went back to the States soon after that it was a real adjustment. Peering back to the states trying to fit in our church Birdsell store. All the other kids were good at softball and had their own jokes and I wasn’t I couldn’t even catch a ball. I felt a shame that the next summer my dad played catch with me almost every evening I got along. Bird softball I was baptized into the church when I was 10 years old. I was very excited and enthused. They take it very serious that since they are the Trucha. They want to be sure that no one is exempt from membership unless they have actually repented and been born again. It wouldn’t do to baptize someone the expert bird just made it up because then that would defile the church. So I had to sit in a visit with a staff of ministers and deacons and tell my story about how I got saved. Once they proved that I had really been saved and that it was genuine time I experience in front of the church for the Brotherhood’s true that was done with my story. The congregation was free to ask me any questions and ask whether I had truly met the law. I remember that it was quite scary but exhilarating experience. After person I was baptized by pouring water on my head and then I was a member for life and right all the ordinances of the church as long as I was faithful.

[00:05:49] By that time my dad had been made a minister so he was the one about ties. I remember he decided soon after peace with God told me that now that I was a Christian it read my Bible every day. Pray when I get up before I go to bed. I try to read my bible couldn’t really get anything out of it. I think I was young enough and simply carried no interest to me. As a 10 year old my main concern was being well liked in school getting my schoolwork done as quickly as possible and having fun with my friends. We never mix with people outside of our denomination. I want to give you a little picture of what my life was like. We had no TV or radio or any recorded music of any Christian or not Christian as the church had decided the General Conference that the recorder would simply read people away from God and not lead to greater depth of Christianity. We didn’t go to public places fairs in parks water parks we didn’t go to the zoo as that was looking for animals that are God’s creation. We were not allowed to take any pictures of anything or our homes addresses and round black head coverings for women to wear pants was considered models might cause the man who lost in sin. We never saw him before but I’m terribly fascinated.

[00:07:25] Whenever we were in a department store or an airplane where a movie was playing I counted my lucky to use musical instruments with pride for not beneficial so they were rah all our singings Rockapella young people are allowed to join the youth group when they turn 15 or 16 in their car car organized youth activities we sing at nursing homes once or twice a month went Christmas caroling at Christmas and played a lot of volleyball whenever we got the chance. Yes the girls played volleyball in their cars white dresses and we considered it very long. Holdeman young people do a lot of travelling around the states to different congregations for words. That is how they get to know a lot of people. Make friends all over the country. The young people were not allowed any courtship were dating before marriage. In fact they called Gorshin Khan a version. It was often talked about how carnal courtship would lead to immorality and so it must be avoided. Deciding who to marry. Very spiritualize. It was one of my mom’s favorite topics when growing a beer during a beer is mandatory for the men as that is how God created you. When a young man wants to get married he should pray and ask God for a wife and then God would start to leave his heart to a particular young lady. I can’t say this is exactly how it is for everybody in that denomination. I was taught that it would be wrong for me to show that girl that I’m interested in her I should be friendly to keep a proper space. When I felt led then I should talk to my sister about it. He would interview me to see if I was living right or not masturbating or looking at porn and then asked his approval. He would give a phone call to the girls Minister if she happened to live in a different congregation.

[00:09:39] Per minister felt that she was in a good place spiritually. He would approach her dad that her dad was okay with it. He would ask her if she would like to marry such and such as he is asking for your hand in marriage. So she did everything right. God was in it she would say yes. And then you would get engaged and live happily ever after. This spiritual way is what the church saw as was so much safer than the worldly way where people just go out and seek whoever they choose and try out different partners to see which one they like. Our education consisted of going to the 8th grade and higher education was discouraged. Any time anyone would want to something out of the ordinary. They would get discouraged and shut down. Phrases like well there may not be anything wrong with it but why would you want to be different than the brother. This has to be from theory made so uncomfortable for you not just by the leadership but by others. It was all just easier to blend in this time that we were told many times that a Christian needs to lose his identity and just be one with the church and the brethren. Where I’m going with this is to show how everything was done to keep us from us. Sinning. Keep us safe and strong being influenced by the wrong we are expected to find jobs with manual labor either in the construction or farming industry. There were some that moved into more techie jobs like housing or computer software programming or manufacture.

[00:11:36] I want to tell you a little bit about how the church deals with Sandy since it was the true church. There was very important to keep keeper free from sin without spot and blameless when a member becomes under concern of the star. The staff would ask for a visit sometimes individually or sometimes as a group. The person would be asked to repent of their behavior. They had a car that was a little too flashy so they would be asked to get rid of the car and read part of the spirit of Christ. Or maybe this kind of started to break my heart. Maybe they were suffering with depression they would be asked to repent of not trusting God or having an independent spirit. They loved to come out with names and spirits that people had and label them that way such as critical spirit Forest Spirit independent spirit lustful spirit. Just a couple of them if that person were a man their ways they would be like a la however if that person wasn’t making any changes they would bring it to the congregation in a close. Members would present the case and how the person has been asked repat but no change has been forthcoming. So they would ask us as a congregation Jisa or formally asking that person to retire we will go in support by raising our hands at that point. That person was in quotation marks honorary tax a sort of uncomfortable place where everybody knew about your problem and you weren’t avoided or shun but you knew you had that coming. You didn’t get your act together. If you managed to have an experience or encounter with God and find repentance.

[00:13:33] Then you visited with the staff again for them to prove whether it was real. If they said it was then you had to get up a members meeting. Kind of like when you were originally baptized. Tell your experience again from the congregation you were subjected to questions from the congregation and they were asked to vote. Raising a class whether they thought you had truly repented. And if we could lift that retained stronger so great. We’re back in full fellowship if you are able to read time. Then eventually they would come to the decision to take you out of the church. Since there didn’t seem to be any way for you to repent in that year. I guess my impression was that sometimes you had sent bad enough that God can forgive you. I must you had been put outside the fold for punishment. Since you were being a defilement to the church then there were scenes that were called death since sins unto death and usually there was any kind of sexual sin like fornication adultery or even a heavy petting or masturbation or looking at harm which was called lasciviousness. These sins warranted immediate excommunication. Other scenes that fit in that category would be premeditated lying or getting drunk. They take that from the scripture in Galatians 5 19. Twenty one word less salt works of the flesh and says that basically in my words they do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. So since the scripture says that you can’t inherit the kingdom of God if you do those things you find yourself doing those things. You’re already lost and going to hell.

[00:15:30] And if you are lost and can’t be in the church that must be Deleware not going to keep the church your but so that you can repent. Many times I remember a members meeting being called on short notice that we would go with heavy hearts and dread. Sure enough someone had done something immoral and was wanting to get right so I confessed it to one of the ministers and it had to be taken out of the church as soon as possible. When the member’s case was brought up her exit communication they were bringing up in a closed members meeting they would say the reason for the case being brought up usually keeping the details to the man. They would tell us again the reasons that the scripture teaches for excommunication to deliver such an one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so as to save their soul. Yes that if we were in agreement that this brother or sister be severed from the fellowship that we should stand to our course we always did. We didn’t dare disagree. It was always a sad somber time with a lot of tears shed right there in church because now life would never be the same for that person. We were not allowed to shame and expelled persons who eat at the same table with we were supposed to still be friendly and you would have them over to our house for a meal if we wanted but just couldn’t shake their hands or eat at the same table.

[00:17:06] If you had them over for a meal the customer would be to set up a card table close to the main table and put the expelled person have that table. It was always very awkward and uncomfortable. This was considered necessary in order for that person to feel the love of the church and be drawn back to the fold. We were told that if we just treat them like normal they will have no motivation to repair logic never made sense to most of those people that I saw expelled would eventually actually come back repent of their evil ways and then go through that whole interview process again first with the state and with their congregations. And then they were reinstated to full fellowship. Everything was back to normal except there was this was considered a very normal way to help people who were struggling to be good Christians. We were told that other churches who don’t practice that are not true churches because they let just anybody into their church and there’s all kinds of immorality going on with no punishment or judgment. Most other Christians are simply just playing church and going to church on Sunday so they can feel better about themselves even though they’re living in San. So back to my store and this is where I get things I’m going to talk about hope that someone can relate to there some details here I’m not I don’t talk about. So back to my story. I was given very little sex education from my parents and as I entered puberty I found myself very curious and interested in girls and sex and wondered a lot about found myself masturbating for which I was very guilty and the shame.

[00:19:05] I knew that as a Christian that had to be wrong for me to do so I would confess it to my dad and he would tell me to tell God about it and repent and God would give me a victory to stop doing that. So that’s what I did. But it never helped. I just recently was telling a friend about it. He said Jerry that’s normal like boys do that. And I said Yeah I thought I was going to hell. Oh he said they put the fear of hell on you. No wonder you were always confessing right. Yeah. So I can’t even tell you the terror I lived in. Most of the time and the shame I knew I was going to hell repent and I’ll never to do that again. I would feel better for a few days or weeks or months that I would find myself at it again even though I knew it was going to send me to hell. I first discovered pornography when I was about 16 years old by finding your magazine Rodion. Of course I confessed to my dad and repented of it but it didn’t help inspire this sin that I couldn’t control. I attempted to keep my life looking very normal on the surface. I threw myself wholeheartedly into the church and participated in everything that I was allowed to when I was 17. I got feeling so bad way about my last problem. I finally opened up again to my dad. I wanted to get back to God know that I was going to have I wanted to stop my behavior. My dad felt they had gotten bad.

[00:20:52] He better talk about it to the other staff biffo that I would need to be expelled in order to repent and to keep it from being a blemish on the church. I felt so awful but I knew it was necessary because I trusted them and if they said it was necessary then it was true. I was so sincere even went to the meeting that they call that was a mistake. I don’t know if I’ll ever forget the burning shame I felt as I sat there and they told the congregation about my problem. I was excommunicated of course and I just wanted to get out of there. It was so awful. I was so desperate to be well thought of and popular the youth group. And here now I was labeled. I had to sit at a separate table now for the rest of my family. It was so mortifying. Fishing was so thick you could cut it with a knife. I remember going along with my parents and younger brother and sisters to people’s places for Sunday lunch after church and then put on a separate table. I was convinced that I was a monster and these horrible evil things that I did. Even though I didn’t want to I sure hope this was going to work because it was sure Kayangel now looking back I just wish so badly I could have had a dad that would have just sat with me and said oh help you work through this Jerry and not given me all that shame. After about three months of desperately praying and surrendering my life to God I felt like I had found peace and was forgiven and I was ready to start life a new man.

[00:22:33] I initiated meeting with the staff and went in so enthused about what I had found so excited to be able to finally get back in the church less actively and then sent me out of the room so they could talk. When they called me back and they told me I needed to find something more here. What I had was good but they weren’t sure I had truly seen my depravity how evil I was brewing pattern. That was a real blow. I don’t want to into all the details but after another month or so I was broken and shamed to the point that it felt like I came crawling back to them with my belly sliding on the ground. And I was accepted because going through the whole interview process. Life is pretty good then for several years I’ve just spent in my youth group work with my dad. Building houses. Well lots of trips to weddings made shrines. When I was 21 I went to Montreal for 6 months for volunteer service and that was a real highlight of my life. I worked at several hospitals soup kitchens and it was a new experience to. Every day with people that weren’t holdings to go in and I would take care down to have discussions with them. I had a volunteer coordinator at the hospital where we were she told me one dairy. One day she said Jerry said What do you mean. She said most of the Holleman boys are here are very good workers. But they’re like they just do what they’re told they’re very good at being doing what they’re told are very compliant she said.

[00:24:33] You think for yourself and you ask me questions and you question the process. She said You watch out you’re not going to stay all of them were for when I got back from Montreal I was 20 and just turned 21 and I’ve been doing a lot of praying about getting married. I was tired of the youth group bands. There was this girl that I had met four times over the years that started to come to my ha and it was Cathy. So I prayed about it and we went through that process like I described earlier I remember being hit with a real. Is this really going I know I’m better pray. I said God I think I want America. But is this really going to work. What is the wrong one. What if it’s just me and very clearly I heard him say. Trust me on this. This is going on we’re and then I had the courage to move forward. And believe it or not she said yes. So getting married with not really even knowing each other was a lot harder than I realized they would be. I had this glorious expectation that it was going to be all fireworks in love. There was actually a lot of confusion here disillusionment because we were just both really very immature broken people we just didn’t know where and a lot of questions or questions and answers. But we both get nervous and make a life together. We had our first child about two years three unmarried and two years later we had our second child and then five years later we had a third. They’re all we’re our girls.

[00:27:03] I participated myself to church in India were became song leader at church which was an honor to be ridging. I was a Sunday school teacher sometimes. I even got Sunday School superintendent which was in charge of every other Sunday morning to have the introduction to the Sunday School before everybody left for their classes I expected to get married would completely fix any signs any hole I would have to pornography or those kind of things and I would be having sex. Shinedown. That wasn’t the case. But three or four years after we were married I found myself looking at porn shorthair about a child like I was back to square one. So like I had to confess it. I told my wife about it and that was a real blow to her. I told her about some of the things I had struggled with as a youth and that was a blow. She was like Why did I know this. Before we got married. I don’t know why nobody ever wrote I struggled with that off and on over the years with finding myself wanting to look at porn again recanting. It started to feel like I was starting to get back into this cycle of looking at porn and tending to reassure her once or quieres and I always believed that when I did that there was something really really wrong with me. And now in 2012 to my wife that I was looking at porn and she got really upset and said I’m tired of this. I had to talk to somebody. So I encourage you to go talk to my daughter who was a virgin.

[00:29:19] So she talked to Gaver know how but just instead Amanda is going to have to mess with me. So talk to them and say you’re going to expel I said No I don’t think so I’m very rude then sorry. I want to be involved with this I don’t think it’s necessary. He full meeting with the other ministers and he said yes it is to care. So Star was very shameful. Barbara Bush was very cool. And after about three months I felt so kind of experience you regret and was re accepted. But I knew in my heart that nothing had changed in three months later I was right back into it. Worse than ever. For the next year. I just live in denial. I’m involved in photography at until finally my wife confronted me again and I admitted that there was stuff going on. She insisted that marriage was going to be over unless I would go talk to her dad about so we did. We met with her mom and dad and I just opened up to them. Her dad is the first person that ever opened up to that didn’t throw me under the bus and he said Jerry you need to get a Christian counselor. He said I’m not going to throw your stuff under the bus you don’t need to necessarily tell and you need to fight because she Kasler by the way is a hole he’s in the hole in church as well. That was the best advice I ever got in my life. I started counseling. Oh I thought I looked online for a local Christian counselor. We found a man that deals with these issues.

[00:31:46] First someone that was. He heard my story and he sent me and commended me for being open to him. And he said I have three questions for you you need to answer through Tsar what is my first free. I saw you and I had no idea. But I start to understand a whole host of things and how I learned about family roles. And most of those I knew that my role in my family abroad was the gold child my mom. I was my Moscow child and I started to see the pressure. I’ve always been ordered to live on to the. I started to see there. I had never really emotionally separated from my mom. And there messily her revolver on her was the way she was between me and my wife. This is 30 years into our marriage. I learned about identity and how it’s important for me to have an identity and that was new because in our church I was always taught that you shouldn’t have an idea of I started to meet with a man screw every Tuesday evening. The counselors are. I didn’t tell anybody. Is that what you got. By the way at this time I had brought it up to all the ministers and I’ve been excommunicated Yeah. So we were living. I was excommunicated and having been through that before with my wife and with my children. We had attempted to normalize and we had attempted to where people would invite us over we would go over.

[00:34:09] And it was so painful confusing for my children and for me to for me to have to sit at a separate table at this time. I was excommunicated we just said no we’re not doing that we’re not going to participate that bullshit. So we spent a year basically alone. And it was it was a years learning and growth for me as I sat in that men’s group of men that were not holding hands. There was a loose thread man there. There was a man that was Greek Orthodox. There was a man that didn’t go to church. There was a Catholic a Catholic guy there Presbyterian guy. And I just sat there and listened to them talk and they would be given opportunity to pray at the end of the meeting. And I remember thinking when I started you know it’s always what I’ve been taught. These people have been Christians but there. Their knowledge is limited. You know they don’t really have the whole knowledge of the truth. Why I do but as I heard them pray their hearts in this hall I started to see that they were real but they had. I don’t know how to explain like I said that I stop looking at myself as better than I had more knowledge. And then I could feel their heart and feel that we were we were brothers. Even if we didn’t go to the same church and that was a real that was a real crack cocaine my belief system visiting with them one night after the meeting. I remember two of them asked me Jerry why are you trying so hard. Because I want to be saved. I want to go to hell. Make sure that I repented.

[00:36:23] And one of them told me Jerry you don’t have to do anything. Jesus Naseri said and it hit me like a lightning bolt right there. How hard I have been working for Amoun salvation all my life. I knew right then there was forgiveness that I was saved. And I started to see God in a completely different way. Fast forward a couple months and one of my friends a hole in the ground reached out to me. He was the only person that reached out to me the whole year and we started to talk and share ideas experiences. He introduced me to a book by John Eldridge called Journey of desire and that was an eye opening book. John talks about how our desires are from God desire Shemar. The Bible does say in Proverbs keep your heart with all diligence proud of it. She’s alive. I’ve always been taught that my heart is evil. Better not trusting because Jeremiah as the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked but John Eldridge talks about how Christ gives you a new heart. That’s in the Bible too. But that’s never talked about. Oh we’re all I ever heard was about my evil heart. There are opened up a lot of desire for me. And a new way of thinking like really mean the desires that God has given me are actually shrunk down. I read a book called by John Mica acoustic called Searching for God talking about how I recommend it to anybody who struggles with pornography surfing for God what if when you’re surfing the Internet looking for pornography what you’re actually looking for is God.

[00:38:36] But your desires are actually good it’s just misdirected. My wife and I talk a lot about this. Gardner started to experience. And we started to question whether I even wanted to reapply for membership in the church I said no I want to give it one more try. I want to give it another chance. I don’t want to be expelled for phonography and then just leave and never come back. We’re going to leave to make a decision to leave. So in June 2002 team reapply for membership and was accepted. In that meeting where I was interviewed this attitude of mine was called out where we refused to participate in the shunning or their voices but just simply isolating ourselves and several people asked about that call me out on felt like they were telling me that I should have I should enjoy being stabbed in the back. There’s a a answer here against having the bad guys smile about it for you’re good and you need to enjoy it. I just simply basically lied and said I’m I support the church the stand with Lloyd Insys what it’s called avoidance. It’s a church and that’s their stand. But. And so I was re accepted and I walked out of church knowing that I was done here I was back in full fellowship knowing I was going to leave. I just didn’t know where. My wife was devastated too and she knew too that we were to leave and she did away. But we had a new house today also we threw ourselves into building a house and that kept us preoccupied.

[00:40:55] That fall later remember coming to the conclusion that we were going to have to leave. And I told God God I can’t leave until you show us where to go. And he said right back. He said no you have to leave first and then I’ll show you where to go. You have to trust me. So I felt like jumping off a cliff. When we did make that formal announcement in January 2015 there was a song that became very very meaningful to us. It’s called This Is The Time of super chicks and the phrase in the song this is the time when you fall you’ll find that you can fly. There’s a lot of hope. So we stepped out of that church not knowing. Knowing very few people I knew a few of the men I men’s group knowing very few people had no idea what life was going to be like that knowing that we were done with our lives just couldn’t handle it. And as I look back now two and a half years later it’s just simply amazing the people that God has brought into our lives. Only one word no where to go next. I’d like to talk about several things that really fall books that are meaningful Open starting to crack crack. The belief system back in 2001 when I had an employee who was 20 years old. He was a wild child. Had no interest in being a Christian. I thought he had no interest in being a hole. Work turned out to be. He was a good worker but he and his parents were older. But I know he slept around with high school girls. Knew Then he was in a bad place.

[00:42:59] And then one night in November got killed in a car accident when a drunk driver rear ended him devastation. Our experiences were so extreme because I knew he was lost going to hell because of his lifestyle. But then some things started to come out about him that I didn’t know and there was some visions that people had that were kind of strange like a complete stranger came up to them and found them later I was there at the at the accident scene and said that he had seen Jesus standing beside the car. Then talking to this friend of mine this employee advising was Chen. Our cousin Chet’s had this vision where he was walking along a road with Chad and he could see that chair was in a good place that he wasn’t and how and his girlfriend dead and gets favorite song was this song by this culture Your love never fails. And actually at the Holderman as your my cousin and his wife sang that song. Your love never fails without instruments they basically down the sea from just your friends and listen to it. Roll it out and sing it out. That song moves me so much because I could tell them Well I actually when I was disobedient to the church and by the sightings and listened to it. And to me this was a rock band evil. And yet there were singing this song that talked about a guy and it just blew my mind like how could how could somebody actually be truly doing God if they’re not holding hands in Gisli mind didn’t know how to process that.

[00:45:10] It started crack going up releases the meter reader and John Eldridge wrote this book Journey of desire a suspension and then I read Wild at Heart which is about a man’s heart. How the church shames a man and keeps him subdued and all the frustration that brings. And I started to see that I was looking to my wife for my validation rather than to other men and to God and to myself. Henry Cloud blog Country Club material as well learned a lot of relationship stuff that I understand. The frustrating thing with all the self-improvement that I was doing a lot of this was over that year when I was expelled was I knew that this was helping me that it would be discouraged by the church. That just brought a lot of frustration and anger. There’s there’s a song that hit me really hard one day when I listened to it called what love really means by a holler talks about being like it’s the reason the song is Hulot me for me I realize that I had no memory of being. Just for me. It’s all like I was loved for what I’ve benefited my mom my dad and love based on my performance I’m feeling a little frustrated by what I would like to be able to do is logically give you all these things like this and this and this is why. We knew we had to leave and this and this and this is all new things that I’ve discovered. I’m finding out that I’m more of a feeling person and don’t much oh why i just had to leave was how could we explain it.

[00:47:42] And me coming along more comfortable was saying I don’t know banjo Gianotti demand certain here’s how we believe that you need to know. And here’s the logic behind it. I find that true spirituality is the answer. And you can be confident being uncertain. I think God is more of a mystery than something that somebody that can actually be put in a box and explain. And yes I see so many people that leave the home and church and want nothing to do with God because they equate the church with God because it basically is a god. What I discovered was that that god of the whole church isn’t God also dead. Right that there is a real god that doesn’t condone that doesn’t Shameen is invested in my healing as a person. That wants a relationship with me. I just kind of a la open mind about who he is and what he is my wife where we are right now. They want to give a shout out to my wife. Sticking with me through all this shit and all the things that we’ve been through incredibly hard I will not be where I am today without her. She has a real good bullshit Dr. and just simply can’t put up with it anymore and that’s got me I want to splurge forever. I gone today SAG’s when it came down to actually pulling the trigger. Lege I don’t know. I actually don’t have the courage to do it without her. When they decided that we’re going to stay. Well just we’ll just put up with it. And she was like Nah if you say I’m leaving anyone’s.

[00:50:39] I was like Leslie’s seems like wow the first year that we left was year in after third year the first year of the year a lot of fear excitement new experiences new people mad lot a whole lot of joy a lot of grief. The second year things just start to settle in the finality of what we had done. We were separated from our families. We didn’t have that many new friends. And I was so different. There was a lotta grief and I said a second year or the year this year is a lot better I suspect. I’m I had we left the church not wanting to be one of those bitter assholes like we have seen. Seems like so many people we see just angry angry Chirgwin all that and talk about all the times how bad it is and how evil it is and how mistreated they were. I was determined not to be one of those people who were going to leave. I had was claim and. Just go out and prove to them that we were going to have this amazing life outside of the church. This year it’s like we had enough space away from the pressure of pressure the performance pressure judgment and the condemnation that a lot of star have just started to come out. A lot of ways. And I started to see more and more of the things that went through how ridiculous they were how cruel some things are. Also people were treated a lot of anger is karma and a lot of bitterness. I’m just sick about myself to feel actually entered into counselling and therapy again for some of the childhood words they mentioned before for my previous cancer.

[00:53:05] I discovered that I was sexually abused as a child and learned how much that affected my thoughts and not to blame on that for my behavior but it helps understand the compulsive behaviors that I had. And going into therapy for some of that to help them work on some of that trauma from my past. So. I’d like to say that was just amazing place for her and it’s difficult. It’s not been easy but it’s been worth it. It’s been so worth being out of here three years now. The farther we get away from it the more we see how the whole thing made the final time I stop reading about where there are so many things in there that is simply that makes sense. Bible and God is like a weapon against me. And so whenever I go to read a I just get all this all speech all these phrases that we use all the time as far as church. I felt like God was going to lead us to another church that was going to be just perfect. And I was really hoping to find a community of people that believed in God like we were to believe in God. And we did find a church soon after we left. We even known about before. We were looking but we found a church that is comprised of a lot of ocean ice. And it felt like such a home. And I think it was really appropriate for that was timely for that time.

[00:55:14] After about a year we we just felt to start going there and follow all the messages that we heard that were so helpful at the beginning were just oh we were still here. We wanted more growth so we stopped going to church there and we tried several other churches for some reason. Whenever there is anything that feels like any kind of control or legalism it’s just a trigger for us who can handle it. So right now we just find ourselves not going to church. We do. I do go occasionally to a local church here. It’s fairly safe. It’s easy Sharina to sit in the back and listen to the music sermons are good at this point. I’m Avari interested in finding people there. There have similar mindsets that we can do life together with like real life not this. Go to church all dressed up Sunday morning life. And little by little we continue to connect with people. One of my favorite things to do. Is there is a local brewery here that makes beer. I never had a conference 36 years old like 10 or a couple and I love going down there on a Saturday night and just getting a beer and sitting at the bar and just striking up a conversation with whoever happened to be sat by. And I think a lot of friends that were just amazing people at a bar day. They’re there to make friends to let their guard down they’ve handed over beers and some of the conversations like people talking about as close as they are and what their what their fears are or what their life what they’re going through. That’s one of my favorite things to do.

[00:57:25] One of the things that I still like really hard is knowing who I am and what I like. I see people that are passionate about water skiing or hunting your fishing gear for ever. That’s one thing that I became aware of just recently is how much shame I carry about. I realize I feel like I’m a loser. Like I don’t have something that I’m really good at. Some hobby and I struggle to say what I like or you know what I like listening to the mental illness Happy Hour podcast sometimes with a guest Paulwell so take turns saying what they fear and then what they lock in so I’m kicking myself Irob or first things I love and I’m starting to come up with things like you know how I’m turning on the music in my bathroom shower hot shower. Now that just is like my favorite part of the day. I love music. I didn’t used to be only listened to. Now I listen to music all the time. But that’s one of my hopes is that I will be able to find things that I enjoy and not feel guilty about enjoying soccer is the new term. My Beauty is how I always live in our rear car. We do feel to your family and I’ve done the best job at it. I’m starting to discover that actually I have to care for myself first so that I can be job for my Hamline and it’s hard like I’ll take awesome reasons and going out with some friends and it’s great but they have to really fight with guilt really my family at home I’m off just having fun. Yeah I’m getting better at it but it’s part of the process.

[00:59:57] So I don’t seem to understand a whole lot. But what I like to think is that even though I said at the beginning that I am shunned Sharon is not my identity. I’m not a victim. Mine are much more powerful rescue. Mean I have a good a ha. I love people I love talking with people about things that are close to their heart Lorio. Rob I’m tired of Thay in Posey polishing her care how wrong it is. I’d rather have that than good rather messy than having everything together. And I still reduce that pressure to make lots of mice to be a good husband to be a good father to be a good person and keep having to take a step back take a deep breath and just say just chill out just relax. You got this. You don’t have to be perfect. I’m very passionate about reaching men because so many of us are disillusioned with life. I struggle with things I wish I had any sort of worth. Wonder why our marriage didn’t turn out like we thought I was going to wonder why life is a turning out. We thought it was going to. And I know that there is there that there is a possibility for a good life for real were living it strengthens me. As I find my way to living in true manhood masculinity are more clearly to others than others. There are starter I’m telling my story because that’s my story and I want to expose things that are secret. The shame that I was raised under I just have to continue to break that shame.

[01:02:34] Thank you for listening again. Feel free to leave a comment to today’s guest. Podcast dot com on the post for this episode. Music is always an important way of marking the journey and often helps us to process feelings that we can’t express at the time. So visit the website to see the songs chosen by each guest to represent their personal journey. Speaking of music all music on this podcast has been performed by Paddington Bear. If you appreciate this podcast please help others to find it. Leaving a five star review on iTunes which helps the show rank and get exposure. If you were shunned and wanted to sell your story email me through the contact form on the Web site or if you just want to say hi. Feel free to do the same. If you’d like to know more about me and the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses I encourage you to listen to my nine part series on the cult. At this J.W. life dot com or on the podcast called this J.W. life. Remember that those around you may be going through something like this and that you have no knowledge of. So give them the benefit of the doubt love others do no harm and go be happy.