Episodes

David Part 1.mp3

[00:00:01] Welcome to the shunned podcast. Today’s episode is the story of David. Now this episode and the ones that follow are going to be a little different. David had a lot to share. And so this episode is actually going to be or his episode is going to be three parts. There will be two regular episodes and then I’m going to throw in a bonus episode as well. The bonus will consist of some things that we talked about really before we got to David’s story before we really started outlining everything and putting it in order. We had a conversation that I think was pretty important and that some people need to hear and I hope that it helps others. I will warn you that some of the story that we’re about to delve into is intense. It does deal with the matters of sexual abuse. This is a very important topic. The Watchtower organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses has been under fire recently through some documents that showed up on a faith Leak’s site. Through that story being picked up by Newsweek by the Daily Mail through the Australian Royal Commission through the process that were held at war with the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses in New York this is a topic that was not talked about inside of the organization as we were Jehovah’s Witnesses. This is something that for an organization that claims to be led by God was largely ignored and that it has taken outside influences to explain.

[00:01:51] For science as for psychologists for four therapists to get to the root of things like sexual abuse how it affects people how predators really are wired and and how they act. And for some reason the organization led by God supposedly claiming to be led by God did not understand this. However these things have come to light and this is a topic that needs to be discussed. It needs to be brought to light so that people can heal. And so that’s a lot of people can know that they’re not alone. So David was courageous enough to share his story so that he could help others feel less alone. And I want to. David was gracious enough to to do this so that I could share it with you. These episodes are going to be a little different. They’re not the normal way that stories are told on here. They will be more conversational. It will be a conversation between him and I and he’ll hopefully you’ll take away quite a bit from it. I hope that this information or this story that you don’t just come away with it. Let’s not boil it down to just being this one aspect. You know this aspect of sexual abuse and the conversations surrounding it. David lived a lifetime of experiences and just a short time. There is a lot to learn here. David is a beautiful soul for allowing himself to be vulnerable and to express these things and then I mean you just see throughout his story that he’s a pretty awesome person a great human being. And sadly. Well maybe not sadly but it is a lot of the most sincere people in the organization known as Jehovah’s Witnesses that leave.

[00:03:50] There was something that I’ve noticed since getting out and that and learning the stories of people that it is a lot of the people who are the most heartfelt and sincere that end up leaving the organization known as the truth so I want to thank David for sharing his life with me so that I can share it with you. And without further ado let’s go ahead and get to David’s story. My name is David. I’m 33 years old. I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I am shunned. All right so then David how do you come into the religion how how did that how do you find yourself in that situation. Well I was born in. So it’s all I really ever knew. And I remember when I was young like looking in my parents Bibles like my mom had a big big black one with the red on the binding of it and along the pages and I opened the inside cover and had her baptism. And she would always talk about being aloof and before and stuff but I just saw everything happening to them. That’s only a few years before I was born. Did it make sense that someone could not be just born into this and I felt so lucky that so then you got to be born in. How did your parents then say your mom. Think you said she was Lutheran. How did. How did she come into the religion. You know how that all originated and maybe your father too. How that came about. Well the way I understand it is my mom came in the religion because she was raised Luther.

[00:05:32] And when they were living up in northern Minnesota some people came to the door some nice people and I know them and I know their names and I’ve even like on separate occasions went up to them and thank them because of my way to my parents and so I wrote my spiritual grandparents but they came in her original goal was she was going to help these poor confused people so she brought them in it was going to share. No no box them up with her. King James Bible about redeeming their soul basically. And so she started to listen to them though and liked what they were saying. My dad he was a bit more skeptical and I’ve heard stories that like since then like the guy who came with his wife who studied with my mom was terrified of my dad at first because he stood in the doorway the whole time and he was actually taking in the information. He just wasn’t showing an eager spirit because he himself was shortly thereafter converted but he stood under this doorway with his arms crossed and right above it was hanging like his rifle gun. And so I was just terrified thinking oh man this guy just hates what I’m telling his wife and he’s not going to stand for it too long. So it’s funny that he was actually being converted in that doorway. So they both kind of were reached through the ministry work in the heyday of the 70s and before 75 to which is important. I think that they were in that mass spell of expansion. Yeah that makes sense. That was a big time because yes they loved 275 that’s when they were in there.

[00:07:08] So then what did it mean to you back then. You know who were you then. How do you feel about it. What was it to you. What did Jehovah’s Witnesses mean to you. Well when I was young my life had a lot of confusion because my parents eventually got divorced when I was still young and I don’t know this sound terrible that I’d actually don’t know how all that was when it happened. Just being young not wanting it to happen not understanding and there’s a lot of confusion that a young person could digest that. So but I remember my mom was teaching us mostly and my dad was around biodome and I hear the question again. I got Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah no problem. You know just what. Where were you. So you know your parents are witnesses. You are. And you’re what are you. How you know how. What did it mean to you. I mean did it when we can kind of incorporate the next question. What was the world view that the religion gave you. You know what. How did it how did it impact you. You know being a young witness well what it meant to me was that I just felt very lucky because I was born into what I was told was the one and only true religion. And so I thought God this just works out great. I just get all my other friends. They don’t know about Jehovah want to talk about Jehovah. They don’t know that there’s a paradise we can have tigers and they don’t know these things.

[00:08:37] And I remember feeling like how lucky I was. But I was also very scared. My world view could be like there were the people I liked and I felt like they won’t get to be there in my grandparents because my parents came in saw both grandpa and grandma on both sides. You know this is my family. What they don’t get to be there. I couldn’t. It was hard for me to reconcile that people I liked and seemed to be good. Still working to make it. I remember as a young kid in school was like first grade. There’s a boy named Gavin and he really he was just kind of trying to push the envelope more than anything like edgy conversion of morals. He was heavy but he liked that I didn’t say the Pledge of Allegiance. So one day he joined me and he said see it either. And he put his hand out of his heart and he just stood there looking at him. I felt so proud that I ran home and I was like time our oldest Gavin you know at school like I know he’s like school friends and we’re supposed to hang out with him but you don’t understand what he did today. He stood up for Jehovah. He did it. You see the Pledge of Allegiance.

[00:09:45] And then you still I get it now as an adult that he probably was just doing it to be edgy and shock value but to my mom she says it didn’t mean anything to me I just couldn’t make sense of it how I know I should be able to hang out with him now because he’s not young you know what he’s doing is trying to make change it’s just a friend and it wasn’t quite that way and then eventually you know my parents got divorced. Things changed a bit. But. Well then what was your childhood like at home. You know how how were you treated. Because it’s not like you just had parents you had parents who were Jehovah’s Witnesses so you know what was life like at home life was at home. Three I guess when is really young pretty easy. Pretty simple. My dad. Some of my earlier memories were signs of his abuse was starting to come out. And I remember things more as impressions like I remember the impression I got here. This was tied to that effect. And I don’t know years or dates but he was starting to be abusive and you know his temper was getting to where my mom couldn’t handle anymore so they were on the edge of splitsville. I remember the divorce took precedence over everything pretty much and I didn’t know why my dad couldn’t live with us anymore. I remember he came to the house with some pleas to get the rest of his things some time. And as a young person I was just fascinated that men in uniform with your shiny handcuffs and guns on their hip were at my house and then Dad grabbed his box and he left and I’m begging my mom like just give him another chance some time. Now I think it’s sitting in his garden. Part of it was because it was a temper issue and his abuse.

[00:11:36] There was an order for protection so he wasn’t allowed in like 500 feet of us and my mom’s way of acquiescing that was well years ago when your father and I came in truth. I actually went up to that meetings in our park Rapids which is a congregation like 45 minutes north of us. And so because the order of protection he can stay here in my town. And he would go to the meetings here and we would travel by 45 minutes to the Kingdom Hall. So that was my my mom kind of after everything hard happened with the divorce she just went like die hard as hard as I’ve ever seen. And I think that’s what’s her mission in life now. She’s willing to drive 45 minutes one way or an hour and half a drive time. This is back in the 90s when we had Tuesday night meeting Thursday night meeting ceremony service and Sunday mornings. And I just remember thinking like we would bring our book bags and we’d have a backpack full of round them on call around home close our lingo I guess play clothes is better than most of ours and that dress clothes and round home clothes that we’d stay in place with our families other. So I was building friendships and Wadena with my dad going there became more and more of like a distant memory where when I would see people like in the store even elders and guys who ignored me had felt like I should know them. Oh that’s a witness. And I just can’t remember the name.

[00:13:03] And it was very odd for me because I was in a sense going to a kind of half 45 minutes out of where I lived but my mom buried there. And because of her situation everyone was sharing you on you’re going through this poor thing and you got to divorce your husband was abusive and you’re just trying to do the best for your kids. She got that love bond as much as she also got the support of you’re in a new hall where you used to go years ago. And there’s that return to old friendship. You’ve got kids. So there’s that warmth of welcome that love bond as well and I just got all these new faces to elders and elders Gittel new fans. Anyone taking an interest in me and it was great. You know for not just being anonymous speak. Yeah yeah. I mean that makes sense. What happened to your dad. So he goes to the creation you know where you lived. I mean you know if there’s an IPO and things like that. Was he disfellowshipped. No it was actually my mom divorced him because he was abusive which was unscriptural so she and the others I guess tried to make amends like tried to keep them together which we’ll get into the elders qualifications as marriage counselors. Later I’m sure. But you know like two people dealing with serious issues before when I was trying to raise us four remaining kids you know before us even I had an older sister who I had never met. She ran away at 15. I was just a baby I had no memories of her at all. And like that was always she was like this legend of something I knew would never matter.

[00:14:49] Like oh that would be my sister you’re talking of. She ran away because my dad’s abuse she couldn’t take him. She hated him. They had very strong character and butted heads nonstop. She eventually just ran away. No no word from a mom where she was headed or anything. Very hard life for her son. Your dad wasn’t. So was your mom disfellowshipped. No not disfellowshipped. She was just like put it in that light. I don’t know if it was her proof even I haven’t. I’m very. The details were kept for me. I just know that the elders didn’t. They were also friends of my dad so they kind of took his side because she was getting a divorce on UN scriptural grounds even though he was abusive. But they everybody knew him as this great guy. He was a great guy to all of them. They never saw any abuse. They all thought that while she had it coming Malfi daughter we know what she was like and my mom just. My mom was just hell bent on this like idea. I’m not going to let one of these other boys grow up like I lost one daughter to you and your attitude that she’s got these remaining four. She is not going to be with him and even it was kind of like reproof but we’re advising you stay together. My mom said thanks for your advice.

[00:16:06] But no still divorced him and that’s what kind of put her in a way where she didn’t get a lot of sympathy or support from the local elders which I also think it made her made it easy for her to jump ship and go up to that kind of relationship. If it was 45 Maria that makes away yeah go go where nobody really knows you. To that extent or knows the current situation is so much. Yeah. And oddly even the people in the congregation north though didn’t know the extent because that’s kind of the area where they came in to the organization so they knew him and they knew her but they kind of knew enough to they were a little more I guess her side than his side. And they were sympathetic then rather than he was their body necessarily like he would have been at the Park Rapids that was that was I don’t know. It was like her side his side and somehow their bodies took a side. Oh yeah yeah yeah that’s yeah that’s how they work. So then you know you’re now going 45 minutes to this new creation. You know you’re a little kid and and so now you know you’re progressing into your teenage years. You know how how did how did life transpire you know how did how did life go as far as you know at school. You know at the Keenum Hall at home. How is being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses impacting all that. Well eventually along the way my dad. Now the divorce has happened. He always tried to be a part of our life right.

[00:17:40] He won all against the order for protection he was intercepted on the way through school like you some gifts or say you know don’t don’t tell your mom this is this came for me and when you come home with a skateboard she knows you need to go buy a skateboard. I remember this one skateboard he bought me or intercepted me in his car. It’s funny how my dad was such a strong character when I look back at him I can see where he could be stubborn and pigheaded and have a temporary. He is very sure he stopped me in his car like that you know like right in front of me is at the stop sign is they’ve already had the brain of the skateboard and he shows it to me. I just love head like blue and orange wheels. That was awesome. There’s the old Broadlawns but there is this union on the bottom. And I remember telling him that I can’t I can’t have it’s kind of you here. And he looked at me kind of rolled his eyes as they were like OK OK you know he’s being patient to kick out his knife and then starts scraping paint on the bottom right. And this is a little bit of a process. The other car ever starts coming up and they’re like what’s going on. And he just waves them around like he’s not moving his feet. You you go around fitness scratching and yelling and the bottom of the skateboard. And once it meets my standard where it’s not demonic now I bring it home and my mom looks at it and I remember when she like David and you know he can’t be doing this rage. She hated that she had a crush more like that but to her mind that’s what she had to do. Is he broken.

[00:19:10] He can’t be giving gifts like this. And when we first went the park Rachal there was a brother who took an interest in me with a bow and arrow and I was like Native Americans in archery and Robin Hood and just the middle like that kind of stuff. And I got a bowl for you what someone’s got to give me and it’s a Borio. And then you are still working in a house all showing an interest in me Mama. She’s always she’s just happy son was interested in her kids and helping out and she’s going through all that stuff. But then when the guy gets me along because he also knew my dad he says well don’t tell your mother this was from your dad and you want you to have it. He knew it couldn’t get it so he was like using subversive means through people and all contacts to still distort things to us. He was always trying he just wasn’t sure he didn’t have the skill set to be the dad that could have worked things out with my mom and be a dad that way. And eventually he gets remarried. So what happens to my dad is he gets remarried to another gown and because the divorce wasn’t scriptural this is his first you know love outside of the marriage bonds they meet with the wife his new wife that is she gets disfellowshipped when it comes his turn to meet with the elders he goes to the ones here with Dina who are also his buddies. And then he says something to the effect that like King David was sorry he did awful things and they parted him basically he gets no punishment.

[00:20:40] So his new wife gets disfellowshipped because she married someone who is technically not scripturally free to remarry. Yes but he being the guy who knows he’s not scripturally free to remarry skates. Yeah. That’s the thing is he gets in there it goes back to he could just rally against these local elders so much. But they I know them and they talk to me about this situation before and they said well you try to help a guy out. You’re all that comes back to bite because they gave my dad a break there and they admitted that they did it disfellowshipping there. What happens now is bird goes up to the third overseer. He says Wait what. The wife is our husband got to stay because he you guys this decision he wipes that judicial committee out of. None of them are elders anymore. So now they really think my mom and my side of the family is like that. They got axes to grind it away and yeah they lose their position. They kind of just become rank and file again and other people are promoted Hall’s kind of failure for a while. Eventually they do work their way back up where I think for sure. Two of the three I don’t even know if I know ever who the third one was on that meeting. But yeah two of the three are now elders again. They have been elders for years. It was just one of those situations where because so much of all calls by family and they feel like they’ve been on both ends of it receiving go.

[00:22:14] They got removed as it was their decision and they were giving a free pass and then when it came back to bite they like further than like my mom or my family. But now my dad’s remarried he goes to live where her whole is with the new wife and then retroactively he is disfellowshipped because the CEOs wife removed those elders meet with the ones who are disfellowshipped her and do what they say. So he meets with her elders and they say Utu Gairy you disfellowshipped. And now they’re both disfellowshipped living out of Wadena and my mom kind of sees that as an he’s moved down his life and Wadena is now open for us to return again. So we stop going to the park rapids meetings. Then we return back to our home congregation which after all the elder body and now their wives and they’re none too happy I think to see us again. I mean here comes drama you know how you know and then they’ve they’ve been some of them have been removed as elders and the family’s been impacted. Wow I’m sure they were shooting daggers when they saw you all walk in. Yeah pretty much. So then how did go you know for you at the new place. You know I don’t know how old you were at this time. Well this is kind of a part of my life back that gets to my teenage years. Elders who were removed are healthy locals are fine with anyone. I feel like I’m an outsider. Skateboard. I listen to music and I change my wall and they just think of me is weird.

[00:23:53] He’s that kid at every get together he’s outside playing hacky sack rather than shooting with the most elderly senior members of the congregation. So he’s if we’re taking a pause the next one to leave was higher on the radar. And I just knew that day back in the Devils game. I knew there was this person. I’ve always felt there was a perception of me that Blake Well like any other youth who lash out or act out alone. My mom didn’t know what to do. So she had a man in her life for a long time and I would think she was drama just completely anything that came up. I’m calling the elders to the elders dealt with us like we like you know they don’t want to come over and talk to you about your music or you’re really mad at your mom right now and so it’s like they were out there with chop talk to a girl. And the dad knew about and I was feel like I remember them not I not I don’t know if it was any of Ridgway heads. You know that’s that’s who she turned to because I think she went all in on the religion. Yeah. For her situation. And if it wasn’t going to help her in the stressful times. I don’t know. She gave it her. Also she expected her to save her and give that back a chance. Yeah. That was her relationship. It became her relationship that was so cute. Yeah absolutely. And then eventually Don she gets remarried in 98 and now I’m probably 14 going on 15.

[00:25:29] And no I don’t like the guy that never see my mom happy like this before. So you know you’re kind of like it and don’t have any affinity to him or closeness to him. No he he had a lot of issues himself I just never got completely comfortable with him it was more like my mom husband moved in with doesn’t he was he was a roommate of sorts more than a father figure at all. And because of his own issues I often she herself made comments about to take another kid growing up on know little kurumsal stuff like that where you just feel like even when he wasn’t around. My mom’s words and opinion of him really made me think look I don’t have any warm fuzzy toward this guy and if that’s how you will feel at all here and I just he just exists in our house. But that’s not fair. We’re going to put him or you in here. There he was we were he had he had issues that we could do like five podcasts on just him and he wanted back to me. I feel like this is the point where from a spiritual standpoint I didn’t like my hall and thou. I didn’t like my home life. And so I was at a point where I didn’t like what was going on at school I had friends as popular people like me a lot of Skeeter’s so we were all kind of outcasts. You know you find each other. We’re going to have if you’re a loner you at least had to fight. They’re loners. You don’t know let’s all be a group of people who are reviled.

[00:27:05] But yeah he’s looking for a community however they can find community. Yeah. So however there was a guy who moved into our kingdom hall Steve. A I would just call him he was probably the greatest influence in my life. He was the person who I would say kept me in the organization. I saw his example. I saw his. He was the first person who showed me that there is another way of anything. How to be how to act how did you know what a joke how to have fun. He made service fun. And I felt like that was a huge part. Before you can have a lot of the people you’re going to talk to you just have to have fun being now and other he moved to my hall and he went with a few blocks away. And this was in his mid 20s at the time I’m late 20s possibly. And he played guitar. I want to play guitar. He taught me how to play music and I love it. He had a skateboard. He wasn’t as good as me but you know you don’t see anyone else in the congregation who you with. Consider an adult having this type of toy. So he really made an impact on me being that he only lived like five houses away or blocks away I could just go and do I didn’t want to hear how my mom and her new husband. And I’d say hey let’s go over to Steve’s. So we just up and go.

[00:28:25] And that was like a refuge a home away from home big brother who at this time a real pleasantly big brother had been discipleship as well as my older sister so for being as far as kids who were around when my mom was remarried the second time to Kenny was it was mostly myself and my younger brother Donna and my nephew Zach. There’s too much story here. I don’t know where to go I have to go back. I missed a very important point. Okay glad. The reason my nephew Zach lived with us. Yeah it wasn’t that kind of jumped out at me. Yes my sister who obey and not abandon it ran away from home when we were young kids and I never really knew her. She lived a hard life on the streets and in 1994 she got in contact with my mom again from her pattern of life she had picked up HIV and that she was going to harm. I think we reached out because she realized for her it’s probably in line. So she moves back up to me and I saw that I get to meet the sister finally who is just. She was a really great influence on me. She could really help me. He was worldly as all get out but she really helped me. From a standpoint of my what I liked she was into what I was into and she wanted something for me that was what I wanted for me not just like whoa I want you to do this because that’s what I want for you. She kind of was whereas people who liked your spread your wings and that will fulfill you. So it’s really good to have that balance.

[00:30:12] But she moved first and then made way for her husband and two adoptive daughters that were his come up from Houston Texas after I got to meet her and the girls came. Then lastly the husband came and they lived in our little town for a while. And they were in the drugs and some very unsavory characters were always lurking around and eventually it ended in a murder where he killed her and my mom ended up taking in the two daughters who were at his adaptively and they at that point had one kid my nephew Zach wholely. So yeah. You know the three of them are not get the four of us and then three more come on board the two girls eventually a lot of thing came about where they were my mom wasn’t able to give them what they needed. And being is she kind of turned them over to the state because was too much they and all by herself having seven kids and these grandkids now living with you being that Zach was the only one really that was my sisters. At no state are you there. And then my mom got remarried eventually after that. So. Gotcha gotcha. Hear you cut you cut in a little bit cut in and out a little bit. The signal seemed to go or something but. So sure. I think I don’t want to say I like but I’m going to say it. I like that. You know this story has so much to it that you just kind of glossed over the fact that your sister was killed by her husband.

[00:32:02] I mean wow that is you know like like you it’s it’s so so much of a story here that I mean that alone is enough. I mean what I know you know I can’t speak for you but you know what kind of impact did it have on you. You know you know that your sister was killed. I mean it seemed like she she had come back. You know you finally get to meet this person in your life. Yeah. You know she’s having an impact on you a positive impact in this horrific thing happens. You know how was it. How did that impact you the way you felt. How did that. How was that viewed in the congregation you know because I know how witnesses can be about things where they were they comforting and supportive or everything. Well you know she just deserved got what she deserved. It’s a weird situation because when she came back in her life in 94 at first it was just her. And then when you rifled through someone and you know them like the same photos that you have of them and you just look at the same photos. This is my sister this my sister this Mrs. And then they come and they meet you and they smile like your other sister and they’re animate in the flesh in front of you. It’s like the scary thing is though all of that happened. I don’t mean to sound like I had glossed over it but that happened. I met her 94 and she was murdered in 96 when I was 10 to 12. So there was like it’s like more of a memory of a dream. Yeah.

[00:33:46] In my life where someone just kind of came and made a huge impact and slid it on. And I feel like it’s it’s the craziest thing to think about that I could have you know. And you know I would say don’t forget but it seems so brief. You have to remind yourself now because like the two daughters after the situation live with us remember Robert caravan all of us down to when she was beating Kenny. But then when they got married it just struck me that other girls weren’t there because they had kind of gone to foster care homes to the state’s care. My mom just kept my nephew Zach. And oh yeah it’s just it’s just very weird to remember that when this happened. And those memories they never got to be around him when they were actually married together I think that was like my memory is very jumbled in a lot of this. I mean I think since you were so there’s a lot you’re so young. You don’t do birthdays still like timelines are hard to keep. I was very in survival mode. Like I remember I just remember being maybe middle child syndrome or whatever you want to call it that like I always felt like. I remember once telling my mom called my older sister I don’t know and she ran away. So that makes you think Julie my my immediate oldest members remaining sister who I did know is only a girl after Rubin. He is now the oldest to. Will have to wait. He’s like the all male the housemen Jonas the baby and here I am in the middle like it was this you just entertain yourself.

[00:35:21] You feel you fall into yourself and you start finding like I don’t know you know how kids are I guess where they find their own. You make do with what you have and if you feel like your parents up against a lot. I knew my mom was part of the thing. I could do to help her was just not worth it be invisible. But I had a lot of humor and I was the glue that kept her work together. But I also was very good at trying not to ask for help or ask for needing anything. And that was that was part of my what I can do is you know does it make. Yeah I don’t make waves. I help heal and then they receive back and say you know there’s me you make jokes you make people laugh and I hear a conflict. So try and do what I could. But it’s it’s it’s a lot of demographic in any any family or household. Yeah. I mean what you’ve told me already is a lot of story in that there were just there are a lot of characters moving in and out of the story and there are a lot of there’s a lot of transition and there’s a lot of heavy stuff. And I think you know when it’s your life. You know I just kind of normal like I mean I know when I told my own story on my pug podcast there was something about when I actually you know I never really thought about it it was just my life and whatever.

[00:36:58] When I sat down and was actually writing some of it out and I was standing there for hours speaking about it you know just kind of hit me you know if somebody else had told me that story my own story would have probably given them a lot more compassion than I’d ever give in myself for it you know. And you know you have a lot in your story you know to this is a there is a lot of moving parts and you know you could just take this part of it or that part of it and segmented it off and it would have been it would have been tough. And you know when you add it all together. You know of course you were just trying to survive. Of course you were. I think I used the term dissociating earlier. You know I think part of being invisible is just kind of dissociating us and you know there’s a lot going on here and I’m just going to kinda be in my own little world and do my thing. You know occasionally I’ll pop in and try to make people happy or try to lighten you know a heavy mood. And it’s it’s a lot to carry. You know when you think back to a 10 12 year old kid you know that’s that’s a lot. So I’m just saying that you know you know of course you don’t remember all of these things of course you’re not going to remember the Tom lines man you had a lot going on. Yeah. You know that’s a lot. Yeah. It’s I don’t apologize for calling tangental let me come across. I always will.

[00:38:41] No no no apologies no apologies you’re presenting this in a very logical link. I’m about to say like one of those points from the theocratic Ministry School a logical coherent development. Now I have to edit my blood. But yeah like you know what you’re saying you’re telling it a very logical way. Man you just got it’s just you’ve got a lot going on there. And you know I guess what I’m kind of telling you is you know from an outsider’s perspective you have some has some compassion for yourself. You know you went through a lot. This is a lot of stuff for. You know we’re just up to here. You know you’re young adulthood I guess. You know it’s a lot of things for you to have had to deal with so you know don’t don’t be hard on yourself for how it’s presented yourself on the back for even being able to present that this well you know it’s there’s a lot of things here. And you should be commended for being able to create a cohesive story out of it and make something there. Well thank you. I do take I don’t know I take credit for it but I also feel like how can I not have a handle on things that happen to me and you know. So there’s some stuff that is like I know when I talk to my mothers sisters and they fill in things I’m like oh yeah. And so for what it’s worth I think I’m doing good Deshi remember as much as I do. I’m sure all the gaps are filled in I don’t know. It’d be just too much to even utter out loud.

[00:40:33] I just don’t know if someone else was telling me this story. I would look at them and say well you know it’s ridiculous. If this note you take that out take this out take this out and it still sounds like some Hollywood script that’s just too fantastical to ever be real but I went through it. It’s the it’s real. You’re not the only person who’s you know there’s a podcast I like to listen to. I mentioned on my podcast called The Mental Illness Happy Hour. And on it people tell their stories. And you’re not alone man like you know obviously hers has unique qualities we have the Colts of Jehovah’s Witnesses in it. But you’re not alone. There are so many people that go through so much and I don’t know. I just think you know. Good for you for you know being strong enough to make it through all that and whatever you can remember of it of course you can’t remember all of it. Nobody can we all. All of us can go back and get things you know filled in. But you know you should. Don’t. Don’t worry about how this is all coming off. Because I’ll tell you now this is coming off very well at least you know know from an outsider’s perspective. And it’s just it’s just a lot and you know. I know you just mentioned Steve so like I was a I’m sorry the. So so you know you’re just getting to that segment of your life so you know how did how did all that start to you know. I think I derailed you a little bit.

[00:42:24] Oh that’s good though. Oh I do. I do want to ask though you know how did the congregation react about your sister were they do they do what I assume. Well it’s this will leave you may be gutted to know and I don’t know the validity of it’s true or not but I wouldn’t put it past anyone. Once word got out that my sister had returned and she had wild piercings and tattoos and had lived basically just the street life she told her stories about getting to Texas was like I had to jump on a moving semis that I got into because it was obvious this guy is a creep you know like there were stories that were circulating around the hall someone came up to my sister was on some medication it wasn’t yet AIDS but it was HIV and she was taking a medication that was experimental and she would get sick occasionally. And like I know that she would get sick but there were some sisters in the hall who said that oh she was in there and we heard puking and then when we went in and looked there was a massive storm. We had to clean it up and we shouldn’t have to be the ones to clean up HIV over sickness or whatever. This is not a hospital where she is that kind of care she should stay home. They didn’t. It was not welcoming. So again a flip flop happened with my mom and sister we’re going up to Park Rapids with us and this is going to blow your mind because eventually the girls do get there.

[00:43:51] And so now it’s the four kids or five kids and my sister being reunited and then her two girls and there we were crammed in this car. I remember sitting on people’s laps like driving up to 45 minutes late. There was one that was a blizzard and it was so bad my mom was like couldn’t see the road. But my sister Kelly said she was going to just look out the window. She’s a artist I can see. And she was literally like voice guiding my mom like okay I can see the white light with her head out the window in the blizzard Amber thinking like just how happy I was that Kelly was here and she was being so heroic that we were all get home safely. And a 45 minute drive which lasted about an hour and a half and it was just like I remember things like that crammed into people’s laps and it was a new struggle and all that and I felt like now it’s really starting to get into me that the the elders and Dina and the sisters who they made this story up like I know my sister was sick and had her problems. And that would have been a bad thing if it was true. But she was also deeply embarrassed about her condition. Wouldn’t let us wash our clothes in with her load wouldn’t let us use her like toenail clippers and stuff like that. Like just very like she there’s no way she would have left a mess for somewhere else to clean up. Data just there. Yeah. They didn’t want her there. They didn’t like her there.

[00:45:21] They felt like they didn’t like my mom anyway and now they have just this old guard more like can’t we just have a normal day like I think is their approach and we want to park rapids and how much more loving reception rather than the people who have just known me or my family for 30 plus years. Said these guys were welcoming every time and they were happy to have Kelly even if they viewed it as her final days. Not knowing a murder would happen but just because she was sick with this thing ever felt like that made me feel much more spurned against the local connotation and like I did not have any warm fuzzy thinking about Wadena at that time. However that was that was how it went. My sister anyway. I preferred the northern migration just because she was the greatest and they were accepting of her. Did they show up. You know I don’t know if there was a memorial or a funeral or whatever the situation may have been. Did they you know show up and show support for you guys. They did they absolutely did. Once the death happened they came out and I think that has a way of just releasing anything even negative feelings you may feel justified in having her. And I feel like whatever the situation was they did come out in droves from her mom’s support. Good good.

[00:46:43] Yeah that’s that’s one of those instances where you can actually I mean as long as they were just doing it you know to be a good witness which some people do out of a sense of duty you know but that’s a place in life where you can start to see people’s humanity come out again. Yes. Yeah. You know that was really good. It was funny though to like just another tangent you don’t have to keep this up but my sister had such an impact on me simply in the way of life that she wanted me to experience days. And I remember having no agency or no voice as a young little child. I was just kind of part of the rank and file that operate in a household. We used to go to the video store and I would stare and stare and stare at like the Star Wars cover. I thought No Luke on the cover with his lightsaber just looks so awesome that I somehow a 10 year old earned a buck. I got a dollar and I went rented it without anyone’s permission. I just stared so long I couldn’t wait until I saw this movie. And I came home with it. My mom said well that’s that Star Wars. She was brought in at an era when that was popular and they would mention it from the platform. What is this ominous force. You know and so the measure is so she says no way not my house makes me take it back and feel ashamed. I just like the lady at the counter look at me just like you already. And I just remember like wanting to die and cry. I just slid it over and I said No I don’t need anymore. And I would never get my dollar back. I just had to return it. And then my sister had went to bat for me while I was gone.

[00:48:23] You know in this movie she had talked to my mom and said lives you know and you know she ran away and done what she wanted before she went Stockhausen’s and there’s nothing weird about it. There’s no guards there like demons. It’s just it’s just part of the sex fantasy sci fi thing you know. So then my mom softened a little under the. And I just remember like that was like the first time I can really really remember someone going to bat for me and saying you know my sister stood up and somehow they. I think the money just came from one of them now feeling bad but we went. We watched Star Wars and that was like a really off Emmy 10 year old boy. Right. That’s a big of life just watching hours on the left. But that my sister who I just met recently took a special interest in like stood up for me to enjoy this movie and then we loved them. Now we’re like one of my favorite things anyway. Yeah. That’s awesome man. Good for her and I’m sure it felt good for you to. It is really funny to talk about my sister I think about her because like for someone who just he basically came through your life so transiently me and only me had threatened to do these like two or three things that they were things that meant so much to me.

[00:49:39] It’s really like it just speaks to my heart my soul that she she came in touch stroke my face it will have the impact she had and then was gone but it was so like landmark moments in my life that would become like that love of Star Wars and like that laid the groundwork for when I met Steve he’s a star wars fan and he’s got the Lord of the Rings books which I don’t even want to read because there’s this word Lord and. And then slowly though you start to gain will be experienced through him running away and Steve was from New York so he experienced a much more than whatever. And these were the things that spoke to me was that I didn’t have to grow up get a pickup truck and just hunt deer. My whole life you know would be like this would the rural Minnesota if it’s not ice fishing and hunting it’s like where do you fit in. And I didn’t know that spoke to me. But that was the area I lived in and I didn’t know if it was because it who I really am. Or is it just because my dad wasn’t around so I never had that much male influence that says let’s get some guns and go Hunter you know kill stuff and I just felt like I don’t know if I am my more feminine maybe because my mom was always me and so I don’t have the machismo side or is it like. It’s not necessarily a feminist view a distorted view of masculinity that I’m sure you have been a sensitive guy. I didn’t know they could exist yet. My wife yeah. Every guy was supposed to never cry. Oh yeah. You know you have a firm handshake. I totally understand that.

[00:51:23] And there are segments of male society that I do not fit in because I’m not a guy who’s great with you know I’m not a hunter item. I’m in the same boat in a lot of ways you know. So I totally understand. And I think it’s the synchronicity of you know here. Yeah. Your sister floats into your life and has this impact and now you know here you are later in life and you know you need you need another Kelly. And in here Steve you know yeah Stephen A. And he’s there for you. Yeah and they both allowed me to be like listening to my heart and sensitive soul if that’s what was calling to me that was speaking to me for a reason if the star wars it was. See you play guitar. I want to play guitar. You know you had a rule ball kind of where he was a very spiritual. He moved to our congregation to help out. Yeah he had moved out from New York to help in a nearby area. But he felt like on this area things are good but I’m not doing all I want to go where they really need me. So we asked the CEO and the CEO said well after all that’s happened to Wadena you know there’s a bunch of young ones there. There’s a lot of confusion in this little direction there’s no good influences. Go to Wadena. So then he came to Agena and instead of being there is like anyone who would just be there to patch up work and obligatory this is the task I’ve give and so he was really kind.

[00:52:57] I remember hanging over his house and I just loved him and laugh at stuff that I had never heard people laugh at. He was like a sensitive soul. And he was different. He was different kind and nonjudgmental he didn’t know about my family or care about my family’s past like that meant anything about me. But I remember there was a time where someone had called on the phone we were over at his house hanging out. And that was like just get away because we do want to be near my mom and my stepdad Kenny at the time so we just would go Steve’s. And he left for a long time after school. He would come home from work. Oh yeah he was that kind of open door where it was really cool guy. And I remember we were hanging out though and he got off the phone and said I hate you guys this but that was some other people in the congregation that were more his age and he said they had players I forgot about hang out and then I know we were doing this but they have asked that you guys not be there you know. And I remember feeling like Redsox on those people who call and it took our evening away. They suck but more importantly like I was pretty used to it at this point of people thing you know basically scrambling for the kids table you know the adults are going to play now. But I wasn’t used to anyone having that level of compassion like you saw pain. He hated having to tell us that he even though he thought that the nights over there you know you didn’t.

[00:54:26] I just missed this guy cares and that was like a really big thing is to have someone just like to be around you. He like it either. Yeah yeah I’m here. Yeah. So anyway he just he just liked us and that was like the first person you know in this hall a long time that I felt like like to be around us and it just had to do it because all spiritually I can’t judge this person. Well yeah I mean you all have been down off the right word as pariah but do you all know the way your family moved around and you know all the stuff that was surrounding it. I mean it’s unfortunate but Jehovah’s Witnesses can be very hateful. And clicky and you know to go around feeling like you never fit in. As I experienced it as an adult when I was younger I did fit in. I was kind of like the oldest one and I guess I was the ring leader of our group at the hall or whatever. But you know when I was older and left that congregation and moved elsewhere I never fit in. And and it’s a very lonely place too. I think one of the loneliest feelings in the world is not to actually be truly alone but to be in a crowd of people and know that nobody there has your back or any interest in you. And so I understand what you’re saying there it’s very important to feel like you know somebody wants you to instead of. Yeah. And he was at that perfect bridge where he was a cool guy.

[00:56:12] So he was cool enough to get the young ones. Yeah but he was like he like me and he was an adult and he wanted to be around us just like I could go on and on about him and the impact he had but basically really continued the word that my sister had laid into the books I read the music I listened to all the things like universal he just he was a father figure when I hated my stepdad and I didn’t really know my real dad and he with a brother or my other brother was disfellowshipped and he was just everything and I meant a lot at that point my life. Now you did. MARTIN He was leader. He did it. I could go on about him but I should probably just wrap it up because it simply he was the best ever. He did everything for me. Yeah no that’s that’s beautiful that he showed up at that time and it could be that for you. I mean obviously he made a huge impact and I know man that’s just that that’s just a beautiful thing. It’s an it’s a shame that ultimately you know cults come in the way of things but good for him for being that person for you. You know when you needed it. And for for being that’s in it kind of it’s beautiful that he was that person. But doesn’t it also kind of almost in a way condemn everyone else on a level you know here a guy had a move there from somewhere else so that you could find one person you know. Yeah I never thought about it from that angle.

[00:58:01] I just knew that I was lucky to have him here at that point at that point in my life. I felt like George had given me that big brother no father. All those things that were being taken from Jesus by other brother was disfellowshipped and it was just so obvious his hand was in the matter. And even still a lot of good in me. And you missed the what I call mislike for whatever that’s worth. Well I think it’s cool but he put that as such a part of me wanted to be around him more than anything or anyone else in the world at that time. And it was like I was finding my place. The longer I stood near him I was finding my place and fitting more and more into what I call just like those whether he was in a lot of ways the laws that were just written across my heart like bull. This is this is something that’s written in my core. And I love that I can express it. I just didn’t know how I was going to say you know he didn’t he didn’t make you you. He just showed you that it was OK to be you. Yeah yeah. It showed me that there was a different way. It was okay to be yourself and seeing him as my personal miracle like that God put my life as a witness that everything really was probably a touchstone thing. I would say kept me in the organization. Now I had experienced something that I felt was miraculous and I was thankful for. And he was doing it and he was cool as all get out.

[00:59:40] And then when he got married I remember at that time he was you know starting to date this girl and I don’t think they were dating yet even. But it was a very charming story. But anyway long story short she was at our house and so was this Steve be from New York who came out to visit him in his new Minnesota sort of set up. Steve is visiting Steve a who’s already the greatest influence in my life and I get to meet the other person from New York. And then this girl’s coming over she’s visiting and Steve and her you know they just we’re talking like I was kind of cognizant of that you know feeling OK it might be something. Here she was from another Croatian village 60 miles away. But there was a time when she was going to leave and was rather late at night at 10 o’clock or whatever she still had our drive she goes out to her car. We think she’s gone. And then it comes back and says My car won’t start. And Steve just jumps up. All I’ll take you. And is that we are happy in the car. Eve is driving in the front seat with his girl he’s interested now in the middle seat was this guy who was traveling with Steve B at the time and came out from New York as well who were staying with her. There’s a breathalyzer and he was sleeping in the middle seat.

[01:00:59] And then Steve and I were in the back talking and I noticed that Steve had put him in the girl in the front were talking with their heads rather close and I could just see and see Steve and we start talking. There was a score between these two as well. Look at that are this close and have you noticed they’re talking about you and I like having to show it to whisper Steve’s got the music faded to the back so we can’t hear it. They have some up there late in the backseat of the van which was like his work van. You know he was a window washer as well. So that like he gave me the music that I play the books that I read and I became writer of my own music like he did and recorded an hour when he got married. He said Well I’ve got this you when they were currently building up to you or take over. And so I became a window washer as well and like a lot of my life is like just had his fingerprints are over who I am even if it was just him allowing me to be yo and then at that point I saw it as another miracle that here now on the very evening that they were having their long convert conversation that he had been taking her tell her that she had to work the next day so he was going to drive an hour out of the way an hour back just to give this girl a ride.

[01:02:16] And Steve and I were talking the actually all the while you know Weezer music a little too out and it was just like oh I’m not losing Steve I’m gaining this other Steve is now my spiritual Big Brother so I’ve really getting it cemented that Joe was not going to leave me destitute and having this this pattern of always being provided a spiritual Big Brother if you will is starting to really cement my mindset that I want to be a witness and be in this you know witness thing forever. And it was kind of when I went to New York with Steve be the first time with my brother Jonah we were out there and this is 82 and just after 9/11 too. So the city was a little different he said and there was more unity after the attack. Of course people tried to feel neighborly and compassion more so. But I feel like I would look at people and they tell me don’t look at it from the eyes and look at people. That’s just how I was being a Midwestern Minnesota boy. I would not say hello and they would start responding back on the subway. I started talking to this guy next to me and you know I am German in high school and he ended up working at some old German TV station out of New York and we started speaking German. And it was Steve B and his sister who really like saw this and I like these that you can go anywhere and there’s something just innocent and boyish charm about your persona that you can get people to open up. You can just they’re drawn to you. They want to talk to you like you’ve got a gift here where you want a gift of gab or whatever they were like they really were the first people that told me you need the pioneer.

[01:03:58] That was Steve was a pioneer and these people seeing the Minnesotan out of his setting in New York is still like drawing people who are normally closed art and don’t talk to each other on subways like that. Maybe they’re right so I might as well give this pioneering thing a shot. And it was just really kind of cementing me in cementing in that it’s going on so then so you’re on 18. Did you go back to Minnesota and pioneer. No I was baptized at 18 actually. Just like a month before Steve a marriage and then from the marriage Steve he gave the wedding talk. Now like the married couple went off and did their married life began. And from that get go. We had our bags packed. You just go with the baby. My brother and I write to New York. So I had only been about taste about a month but they were quickly shaping my goals for me gives me saying that you know you need to pioneer. Look at this child and something oh yeah I did that first month. But you know why not. You know maybe that is what they wanted. I’ll try it if nothing else. So I got back to Minnesota I was just like a week long visit in New York when I got back to Minnesota. I remember mentioning to my elders they started as they can auxillary did that for a while to make sure I could do it. And they had said Do it for a couple months and see if you still want to be a window washer. I had that like perfect employment where you can make your own hours and go on servers if you wanted.

[01:05:39] I had two roommates who were also oh by this point to my mom and Kenny decided they wanted a fresh start out of Wadena. So they moved away when I was 18 going on 19. Right around this time they. They got out like they went to Sioux Falls South Dakota and in an odd turn of events I stayed back so my family left me 15 rather then I moved out on my own right dating within a that I got I got a good thing got you at the window gave. I’m trying to start my own business in China. Get pioneering and I’m going to help this carrageenan. We just lost Steve a I’m gonna stay here and help out my roommates were like no other guys in the congregation obviously and my mom with her husband my stepdad Kenny my brother Jonah my nephew Zach all went to Sioux Falls South Dakota and I just decided I would stay behind I liked within and had the right goal for me so I was going to see it out rather than go with them. So then where are you where do you go from there. You know you’re not alone in this new Plaisir you’re pioneering living this you know bachelor life washing windows you got roommates and you know where did you go from there. Well my roommates actually the interesting thing was they said I could move in with them because the other roommate who was the original third was off at ministerial training school so he would be gone for three years.

[01:07:18] And so they just said well we’ve got space enough and he still had the room but they let me have like a guitar in the corner in a total full of clothes. Every day I would fall about my stuff and put it off in the corner again. And then all my other clothes were still in the garage because the garage was good enough for storage. I had only ever had one room everything I own fit one room in my house any way previous. So I just put around the garage and I remember like getting dressed for service in those early mornings where in the winter dress shirt was like so-called on your skin when you get the Santa Clause. And I would run out. I eventually learned that I should run out grab my suit out of the garage bring them into the house if they’re in the steamy room of the shower with me like they’ll warm up and then it’s not so bad getting dressed. You know the fact remains we got a place of our own. And the guy from ministerial services school he came back and said also you’re here now. And it just kind of worked out where they are you know they knew I was like a young entering manhood trying to do it through pioneering and so they made a lot of allowances for that. It wasn’t like an established business owner. GOODWYN Nawabshah yet but when you got those types of guys in I think my rant was that 120 POCs or something so I didn’t need a whole lot. I was just going about it Virgin I’ve got from there. Now that I no longer have you know mom breathing over my shoulder your parents are adults.

[01:08:47] When you’re a young person trying to spread my wings a little bit Steve and his wife Steve a they moved about an hour and a half away and I still would make regular visits to go visit them. And I started to take an interest in one of the girls in that congregation. And I remember the elders had warned me about this on this dating thing if you’re going to I was 19 but they were thinking it was too young and that I wasn’t ready yet that she wasn’t ready and they were right. And probably every count. But I was young I was 19 and I was ready to where I want to. And there is no one around to tell me I couldn’t anymore. So I had to place my own I had roommates. I was finding out about adulthood in everything and I started this relationship in the with us being young. We never got in serious trouble. But you know we either I ended up being removed as a pioneer so I never made that actual benchmark of getting the secret book you get for being a pioneer for one year. Yeah which made me dramatically sad because if you like took all my separate attempts to pioneer I would like well over a year consecutively so I figured I still don’t get the book and anyway so not that she distracted me. But I was young trying to find out what I wanted and didn’t really know which leads to you learning the truth. The authorization I should say they all they accepted it because they give you the space to make your mistakes.

[01:10:31] But then as we all know with eye witnesses when the relationship it working again at work. I was you know removed as a pioneer or whatever it is it just wasn’t exemplary. They are all these people who are in their nice you know like what is called passive aggressive like very Minnesotan way to just say well we never liked her we know we told just so like very I’m thinking Well where was all this information when you know. I don’t know if that’s a credit or a disservice to them but it’s one of those things where it’s true that one could save me from it or at least you let me learn it myself. I probably wouldn’t have listened. You never know what the right course is but sure. Anyway I had made some stumbles and falls and got myself removed as a pioneer. I remember the feeling of when I just went back to a pioneer instead of like this is what really touched me from Jennies episode was that simply being oh god fearing loving member of the congregation feels worthless. If you’ve ever been even a step above that you’ve gone out and you’ve come back to just rank and file it is like all you can imagine is you raise your hand to comment and people you think everyone’s just like. What’s wrong with him since the why is he not pioneering. What will he ever get back into it. It’s like you just feel like the pressure of do more do more do more and if you’ve done more of quit than never like Oh thank you so much for your service.

[01:12:01] We really appreciate the sacrifice there just like also at one point you were able to but now you’re not. What can you change to get back to that point. It’s like there’s never a thank you. No no thank you for your service. So then so I’m not trying to rush you but I do have somewhere to be at 2:00. OK. I don’t want to leave anything out from your story. Where where should we go next. You know you start pioneering again. No. Eventually I after being removed as a pioneer and struggling with some things and trying to navigate the waters of like life on my own. You know I had a job I was I also had a part time job at Target Johns and I was trying to build the windows up as it was doing both if I could. Then you just kind of you’re young and you’re just learning. And then I started to you know have pitfalls of elders would come and talk me more and more and you know the blinds would go down and you can’t go back to the situation right now. It was it was never like I was a good kid but I was I was struggling. My my friends were out everywhere else. My mom was somewhere else and everything else. And I was just trying to learn on my own and it wasn’t doings anything horrible I felt. But I just I felt horrible about some of the things I had done and they were largely minuscule.

[01:13:38] But anyway long story short I got to a point where I had said kind of within myself you know I had a couple of like worldly girls where we were kissing and such and I had some contact with other people who give you that. After my first relationship didn’t go well. I just remember getting in trouble being frustrated myself that why what’s wrong with me why can’t I get my act together in our lives. I’m very like girls are all I think about and I never never felt like there is anyone for me necessarily around in my area. Every knew my story from the previous one and there was a couple of good I was friends with a lot of girls too. And in my local corrugation there was one girl. But she was quite young for me at that point and I just felt like know I’m not going to ask anyone to eat for me like I’m. No I just I was a lost young man who in 2000 and 3 my dad died down there and we might have to do part one part two and you can salvage whatever audio is missing. Yes you are going to have Connally’s tourism in 2003 your dad died. How were you then. I was 19. That was like right around the time where after my first relationship ended. Even my ex she was like well I’m sorry about your dad. When she reached out to me at a start he’s don’t be a thing that you want to start up again because you’re showing compassion. It’s going to be this art again off again relationship. I don’t want to go through that with you again. And you know like just that and it was one of things where my mom had always been my life saving grace.

[01:15:25] I just loved it to death I took her side on every single thing in the world. I didn’t want to know my dad. I didn’t. I thought of him as what she thought of him as what I thought of him. I was only taught to I was only told things about him from her and people would see stories from within a Kingdom Hall they would say oh well we know your daddy is not the way your mom makes it sound and I’d be like right away like you guys know I’ve died. Believe me I’m well aware of how you think of my family. You’re on his side. Just discredit anything good they ever had to say about him. And then when he died I just remember sitting at his funeral and I this is so crazy so I’m forgetting so much more than going backwards. He after he was divorced from my mom got remarried wife gets a starship. He doesn’t initially elders who let him off the hook. They all get removed new Elder group meets with him. He is disfellowshipped. He comes back after a long time and when he comes back after a little bit of time he starts to say he’s anointed what really set my mom off that he thinks he’s wife. Yeah. So he starts the season knowing dead and he knew it because like something went with blood sausage when he was a kid and I don’t even know if that’s the real story or just my mom trying to make it seem so frivolous that it had no grounds and so now I see my dad as this like crazy.

[01:16:48] You know I don’t want anything to do with him. And then he dies and I went to the funeral and I was mourning him and I got to meet a lot of uncles and people who I didn’t know and the divorce. First of all kept me from knowing his side of the family and the religion as well kept me from knowing instead families. I’ve got all these people caring about me and telling me about my last that I they look like familiar faces because we share blood but I have no idea. And it’s just awful. The feeling of loss. I remember not crying not crying except for when I looked at my nephew Zach thinking he doesn’t get there nor his grandpa and I was so sad for Zach not an actually that I had lost my dad or that I knew enough to miss something that was now lost but where it really hit me was when his widow called me and said Well your father has a bunch of things he wants you kids to have an remember from where I live out to Jamestown North Dakota. Seemed like a world away and we went to go pick up stuff from the widow. A friend of mine in the creation and die. We drove out there loaded the van and we drove back. It was just like I was so dumbfounded with. She had some good stories about him and he was her husband and I just remember thinking Well first of all you were supposed to be this vile woman that her mom hated and that wasn’t quite so. And now I’m starting to think everything else.

[01:18:09] Maybe maybe the guys who were friends with my dad maybe it wasn’t quite so either. Not that I disbelieve. But I see she comes from a totally different relationship with him than anybody else. Maybe add some Sturton to anyone there. I had been ETN for like a full year. The order for protection was done and he had been reinstated. There was no reason I couldn’t talk to him. I didn’t invite him to my baptism I didn’t write a Kargar or anything to him. Then I just feel like now he’s gone and it hit me like that already. It was two and a half hours away or something. I think the drive and I feel like just like you know that’s not the end of the world. Two and a half hours away when I had that graph and there was nothing to drive an hour and a half there vaccine night three hours. And I really felt like I had failed him as a son and I just don’t you know even if he was a jerk I should have taken the time to investigate and find out for myself why I really really beat myself up for saying I should have proven he was a jerk to me rather than just a doorway and with you and to man on the side. And now I can’t investigate it at all. To even have the investigation. I feel like I was just robbed of having a father. He hated it. You were you were you were robbed that. I would say that the word should is a slippery slope.

[01:19:30] And that you were just a kid and so you didn’t have the tools at the time you know if you were who you were who you are today maybe you would oh yeah you would have reacted differently. Yeah but you can’t. Again I think it comes back to that that thing the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach us that everything is in our control that that that everything comes down to choice and you know you can blame yourself and say well you know why don’t I do things differently. But there’s a there’s a great quote that really helped me with some things that I had regrets about and the quote is something like acceptance is letting go of the hope that it could have been any different and that quote meant a lot to me because in retrospect I can look at things and say oh man you know I could have done this or I should have done that. But accepting it for what it was I was doing my best at that time. You David were doing the best that you could have done at the time as a kid and I understand having some regrets and wishing it was different but it couldn’t have been different because you were a kid and you could have done better. I’ve been through lots of therapy ever since the last couple years especially counselling and I have forgiven myself. Is this still a hard thing to feel like now. You know I just don’t know whether to give myself away. And actually like are at whole or side no I don’t know you’re not like I don’t want to push anything or even preach to you from but from my experience my new found spirituality.

[01:21:33] I actually there’s a psychic who had called my wife landed up for this thing and I went in super skeptical going to you know all that stuff scared the life. Oh heck yeah. Yes. And she was like within a few minutes she’s a Christian psychic who talked to the Archangel Michael protecting me in clearing the area. Any negative energies. And then she starts starting. And my dad’s just like I give pounding on the door to get through to me. And I just it was like it was one of those things where I felt like an all you had to say was goodness. And she didn’t know the situation like it was legit to me just a spiritual experience where some saw had broken through and told her that my my. He was sorry he wasn’t there for me and he was here in this life on this earth. He was messed up he had a lot of issues. He had things he couldn’t control and he hated when he couldn’t control things and she said that all these things you were saying and it was so him and she asked me about like other stuff and I just thought this is a legitimate psychic like this is there’s I mean I’ve always been with those types who knock on the door on whether or not there’s a creator spirit around. But what we would say demons any demon to be uncanny thing that you can’t explain it away. And that just that there’s something higher energy whatever you want to call it the source of life was not a single person sitting and judging people for their sins.

[01:23:02] But I feel like oh my god this was this is what I wanted to hear and it was very healing. And it was so authentic and it was just really really part of and part of the healing process for me. I know my gay counselor she told me it’s not your fault you were a kid and you were equipped and if your mom was you know actively poisoning this person you know you were against this person. What else are you supposed to do. Right. Well it’s. No body is all good or all bad to her. And obviously your dad did have some issues. But that is that does not define him as a totality of his existence. And I’m glad that you got to have that experience. And I mean I think we all want. You know we all want to to end on a better note. And I’m glad that I’m really glad that you’ve been able to you know get into therapy and and process some of this stuff because I mean you’ve been through a lot of heavy stuff and I’m just I’m not I’m happy that you got. I’m glad that you can see that. And again it comes back to that. Intellectually you can see that you you couldn’t have done any better but emotionally you still have emotions about it. You know I mean when my dad died I cried not for the dad that I lost but for the dad that I never had. Yeah. Because my dad wasn’t always great. And I think that’s you know that’s it’s only natural to have those feelings.

[01:24:59] And you know you can always look in hindsight you can always figure out how it could have gone better but you didn’t have the tools. And he was the adult in that situation. You know he could have reached out differently as well. He has some he you could say you just as easily say that he has a responsibility in the way things went. But you know what he probably didn’t have the tools either. No no. You know he was a product of whatever environment he came from or whatever biology or psychology that he naturally had. And you know in the end everybody in those situations was doing the best they could. Your mom was doing her best. You were doing your best. He was doing his best and everybody was working with what they had. And unfortunately sometimes our best still hurts. Yeah. You know that’s very profound. You know that’s that’s just all you can that’s all you can do. You know sometimes you give your best and and you’re still going to end up hurt. I want to thank you for listening to David story today. Part 2 will be released next week in Please subscribe so that you can get it in all of these stories automatically as they’re released. Each time please also show David and other support by going to my Web site. It’s shunned podcast dot com and if you go to the episodes page there you can leave a comment for any of the people who are telling their story. They can not only read but they can also respond to your comments.

[01:26:45] So just go to shunnedpodcast.com and go to the episodes page and you’ll see an individual post for each story and you can reply and comments on those stories. You can also find links to things on there that have helped each person as they were waking up and leaving the cult if you want to hear my personal story. You can listen to a podcast called thisJ.W. life or go to the Web site thisjwlife.com. And that was my personal story. It’s a nine part series. And you can if you’re not familiar with the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses you can really learn a lot there about how they function what they teach. Alongside my personal story one final way to show support is to leave a review on iTunes just leaving a five star review leaving your personal comments whatever it is that impacted you. This helps other people to find the podcast so that they can get the help that they might need as well. So I’ll send this one out the way I send them all out love others do no harm and go be happy.

Caleb Is Shunned By Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:14] Welcome to the shunned podcast. Today we have the story of Caleb who took a stand and left the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses just 18 years of age. He’s a brave young man and he had to make very hard choices. So listen to his story and afterwork keep listening. I want to tell you what this young man is doing and how you can send him a message of support. Also there’s a special announcement after this story. So keep listening. My name is Caleb. I used to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I’m 19 and I am Sean I was born into the religion. I was baptized at 14 my parents my parents. My father was born in the religion as well. My mom got baptized at 16. She was related to some Jehovah’s Witnesses in the congregation. I was part of the Jersey Shore congregation in Pennsylvania. It’s kind of an odd name but for centralP.A. But yes she was related to some Jehovah’s Witnesses got studying and she got baptized A16. My dad was born in. And my grandfather and my grandmother were actually the ones that started kind of in our family. My grandfather he he was part of the Seabees battalion in Vietnam. He got sick he got drafted and then he decided to join. So he wouldn’t get put in as regular army infantry. So he went in as a construction worker and the Seabees battalion as a welder. I think I think he had gotten training before that to be a welder.

[00:02:09] But when he got back he was in California teaching firearms classes to soldiers. And then sometime after that he started working in the private sector I guess you could say. And he. One of his co-workers was a Joves witnesses and they kind of got started studying then it kind of went off to my grandmother it was kind of interesting. He said after that after he knew it was the truth he went out and he was telling other people. He worked with in the past about it. And it’s the truth. You got to get into it. Yeah. So they got they got into it and that kind of started my family to Joves witnesses while being a Joves witness. When you’re born and it’s your entire life. My mom you know as I said she got baptized when she was 16. She’d talk about when before that she went out with guys boys really when she was in middle school and elementary school and she had Christmas and everything. And she gave all that up when she was 16 obviously. But I didn’t know about that. So it really was nothing to me it but I took great pride in being one of Joe’s witnesses. When you are a Jehovah’s Witness it’s it’s kind of a contradiction in that it’s your entire world. But the organization is so small and you know it’s so small but you think they’re everywhere and that the world is is embracing are this giant force in the world. And so I I took great pride in being a Jehovah’s Witness and being a part of that force. And now our family the Tanners my last name is Tanner.

[00:03:53] They were well-known obviously in our congregation and the surrounding congregations but also on the circuit and even in the district we’re just well known as as being spiritual hardworking people we were tradespeople. You know we weren’t we weren’t business people or car dealers or anything on that level. But my grandfather was a welder. My dad is a welder. He teaches welding. So what I’m saying is we were all respected and my we all gave good talks. We were all just spiritual and we knew what we were doing. My grandfather he is an elder now he’s actually in the German congregation in centralP.A. He’s out preaching to Amish and whatnot but he was the service overseer. He was a lot of things probably life but he was the service overseer for a while in our creation. My dad was actually the Kobie the coordinator for quite some time after one of the other elders died. But yeah so they’re both respected elders. And so I was respected and I took great pride in that when I was Joe’s witness. I didn’t view the world as it is. It’s not black and white as I thought it was. It’s very complicated. I thought that every little natural disaster or everything that happened at theU.N. or between nations was due to this being near the end. Right. Every time every time someone got disfellowshipped or I heard about someone who I used to hang out with leaving you know I thought it was it was like a switch you know just OK. I’m not going to hang out with them anymore they’re obviously bad influence.

[00:05:44] And that also transferred to school when I was in elementary school. I actually told my friends at my friends at school that I couldn’t be friends with them because they weren’t going to be true friends like apparently the ones at the congregation were going to be isolated myself in middle school and high school not necessarily in interaction but in having deeper friendships. I didn’t really get to know the people I was around although I was out there with my friends and I’m connected to them now. The ones I had in highschool. But I definitely didn’t form deeper friendships with them. I wasn’t my best friend who’s my roommate now. I never I didn’t go to the movie theater even with him before I left. I wasn’t allowed. I tried to ask my parents but they wouldn’t even let me. I would get to know somebody to a certain point you know one of my peers but that wasn’t an end. That they would be limited to school. My school friend but when I left that area the person my best friend who was a Joves witness. His name is Trent. He was my friend outside of school. He was my best friend period. You know he’s the guy hang hung out with. He’s the guy I went to the movie theaters with or we went to. Kargi Asian football games or whatever he’s the guy I hung at his house by it when I was at school. You know those were kind of my school friends I can kind of push them off from being anything more than that. My childhood wasn’t bad.

[00:07:26] It was well I mean I thought it was normal. I knew it was I knew somewhat that it was different from the rest of the world. But it was a normal Jehovah’s Witness childhood. I thought but it wasn’t bad. I mean I can’t say I had a bad childhood. I had Lego’s. I had Transformers. I had everything I could dream of. Right. That’s all I needed. And if I had asked for one more thing Id be video games when I was a kid. But I mean other than that it was that it was I it was a good childhood. But like I said earlier I isolated myself in school from other kids. And when I was younger I mean I told kids that I couldn’t be friends with them so it wasn’t bad at home you know school I just salute the flag and whatnot at the meetings. I mean I was I had my first Bible reading at 8 age 8 I think and I was progressing you know I was when I left I was probably within the next year going to be a ministerial servant. So I was I was you know rapidly progressing and everybody like me I liked pretty much everybody. I didn’t have I didn’t have Christmas or 4th of July or whatever. And I mean something else. I didn’t. I guess you could say I didn’t know my family. My family was limited to my grandfather my grandmother who I’ve already brought up my mom and dad and my sister and that was pretty much it. I have an aunt who I know more now than I ever have.

[00:09:07] And I have an uncle on my mom’s side my aunts on my dad’s side. I have an uncle on my mom’s side that I know better than I ever have. You know but I didn’t know those sides of the family outside of Jehovah’s Witnesses. We’d go to family reunions. But it was they were like total strangers. And again I isolated myself I didn’t I talked to them but I didn’t you know go any deeper than that. Yeah. Eric never connected on any type of level. So I mean he could you could say that I suppose I suppose my car Ignatian people in my congregation became my family my entire social network. When I got to be about 12 although I was a Joves witness I’m still a normal boy. Right. So I started getting more into girls as I had puberty and I got into you know watching pornography and whatnot. And I felt totally guilty about doing that and eventually I got to start masturbating you know a little later on and that that was kind of the marking. If I look back at anything that was the mark of my teenage years because it’s totally it’s totally looked down upon. I mean anybody can look down on it but it’s like if you do this you’re not going to make it into paradise. You know if you keep doing this forever you’re you’re not going to get into paradise. And so I was always feeling guilty as a teenager because I was doing that I tried to quit. I tried to quit. I tried to quit.

[00:10:52] I even told my dad at one point and you know that helped for a while and then I got to the elders were asking me questions about baptism. And so I had three different sessions with the elders about going over the questions from my baptism and everything. And I was still doing it then you know I had a spurt there right before my baptism where I was doing all right. And after my baptism when I was doing all right. But then you know as soon as I had a relapse it was like overwhelming guilt. And I think that’s the one. Strike on my teenage years that I can really look back on and that would that would kind of play out somewhat before I leave you know up with how I live. My teenage years weren’t bad. I mean I as I got into high school peers other students they started to look at me a little better I could joke with a more. I was no longer picked on I was picked on a lot. In middle school. But yeah I was like the class clown I’m not the class clown in the yearbook but I was I should have claimed that title I mean come on. But definitely high school was a lot better than elementary or middle school. For me it was just a better time. But again overwhelming guilt over what I supposedly been doing wrong. I started to feel like I could never quit after I tried quitting so many times I actually got to the point where in my head I was like well I may not make it into paradise but maybe I can help somebody out in the ministry to get there.

[00:12:38] So yeah I was kind of like sacrificing myself in that way. And I had actually gone to the elders I filled out a regular pioneer application. Once I was well last September not just some tempera we just had the September before that I had filled out a regular pioneer application because that’s the beginning and there’s service here. And I just graduated and I couldn’t in my right mind tell them that I wasn’t having these problems you know. And so I actually told my dad again and you know trying to quit again. But I was almost a regular pioneer before I left. If it weren’t for that so I got my first job at 16. You know I’m like a normal being. There’s a brother there is a brother that we’re eating dinner with. And he said Yeah I’ve had a job all my life since I was 16 you know. Never have I not really had a job since I was 16. I was thinking I had you know I shall I be like him and get a job when I’m 16 and have a job. So I my first job was at 16 and I was working at a restaurant with a bunch other worldly guys. You know I was the only Joves went up there. I could joke the guys at work you know and they swore and they’d make dirty jokes and whatever was funny you know it was is fun to be around them. And it was hard work too. I worked in a restaurant where you moved you know you you did your job or you were gonna get yelled at.

[00:14:16] You don’t know bullshitting around home you know you hustle. And it was hard work. But we all still joke with each other and the only time I’d really gotten work done any kind of real work was at with my grandparents grandfather or with my dad or the Kaimal you know and so I could joke with these world guys and was fine. They didn’t. I didn’t have a significant impact on you know when I lean left or my decision to leave but it definitely changed something on how I viewed worldly people. In the summer of 2015 I was looking to complete for my school from my high school to graduate. At that time I had been a junior and in the fall there I was going to be a senior in high school. And I would have to complete a senior project. And so for my senior project I actually want to do something super easy that I would have to put very little work into. And that would not really affect much of my life. So I wanted to exhort pioneer. And so I filled out you know I did all the information for the school to apply for that. And I sat down with the principal and the vice principal and we talked about me auxillary pioneering how that would have some impact on the community how I could have some relation with the community in doing this because I was really a big focal point was our community interaction. And yes I talk with them and weighed the pros and cons they let me do it.

[00:16:03] And so over that summer I was able to exhibit a pioneer for two months I think it was July in August of 2015. I did that. And I actually Auxilio pioneered in my congregation jersey shore and also the Milton congregation. Miltonp.a And it’s funny cause I exalt pioneered with this this girl I won’t name her because she is out. This girl called Jen I exhilarate pioneered with Jen and we’re hitting it off like it was. It was awesome. We had a great time for those two months really pioneering together. She was done as well and she’d later leave she left to actually Jehovah’s Witnesses before I did. She’s a little younger than I am by 10. But yes I did that and that that’s kind of where I was at that point. I wanted to even in my school work. I wanted to incorporate Joe’s witnesses even on my senior project. I wanted to do that. And so come my senior year. That’s the mindset I was in my last year of high school. I got to figure out where I’m going what I’m going to do. I want to go to Bethel but I have two regular pioneer before I go to Beth. What am I going to do when I’m at Bethel. My my father and my mother. I think my mother still works there I’m sure. But they both work at a college in Williamsport Penn College. And so I could get free college. It wasn’t. It’s not. It was a trade school more than anything they wanted to be called a college. But my dad like I said he’s a welder. He teaches welding there at college.

[00:17:48] And so I wanted to get an associate’s degree in a trade which was not against the rules or even against file even against common thinking you know if you go for a trade if you go for a trade it’s all right. Right. But you go for something like Business Administration. That’s a little different. But if you go for a trade. Yeah that’s all right. So I was going to go for a two year degree in mechatronics which is like mechanical electrical electronic stuff that’s what I was going to do I decided that. And so going into my final year high school that’s kind of where I was headed. I knew what I was going to do and I wanted to get to Bethel. So that’s where I was at. Now there was a girl my at my school was very small. It was K through 12. Like 400 kids on campus at that time I was like 350 our classes are really small my class my graduating class was like 14 kids I think oh yeah I was the valedictorian but you know I didn’t get grades good enough to be a valedictorian in my opinion anyway. There is this girl really really pretty. Her name is Kaylee and she she started flirting with me. Kind of like the second half of the year second half of the school year which was crazy because you know I’m I’m nerdy Caleb over here. And so we started talking we’d snapchat each other and whatnot.

[00:19:21] You know after school and I’d kind of flirt back with her too because like I wasn’t going to have a relationship with her obviously but you know maybe I can I don’t know how as a guy you know out of my mind a Joves what this guy out of my mind you know I’ve kind of fought back a little bit. So we graduate I can skip to that we graduate. I present my senior project goes great I’m valedictorian. I give my speech at graduation. Yeah I can. I like telling people that yowes valedictory to my class. And then I just like to leave it there because my class was 14 kids some kind of leave and they can they can think of how many kids were my class on there. But yeah we we did that. And then my grandparents always want to take myself and my sister out to Wyoming and because that’s where they used to live that’s where my dad was born. He was born in I forget what hospital out there but they always went MIT to take us out there see Yellowstone visit some friends of theirs which I was talking about earlier. I’ll get into that. So we go on vacation was like four weeks we drive out to Wyoming and we see Yellowstone everything and we visit some friends of my grandparents out there a couple that my grandfather knew way back in the day before they were Jehovah’s Witnesses. And he actually got them to convert. And the husband actually doesn’t do anything about Joe’s witnesses anymore but the wife is like a regular pioneer she’s like in and but this entire time I’m talking to Caylee over snapchat. And we’re just talking to each other.

[00:21:03] But I’m a soldier I was 16 and I’m still I’m still you know wanting to do what’s right in their eyes and we get. And we’re out Wyoming and I just tell her if you’re not gonna be one of Joe’s witnesses out that’s why I was trying to do I was trying to convert her because I kind of wanted a relationship with her. And I just told her if you’re not going to be a Joe was nice I can’t keep talking to you anymore. And so we kind of cut things off but we got back from Wyoming and I started auxillary pioneering regularly. I had quit my job because I didn’t like it and I was going out Wyoming for four weeks and I just quit. And so we got back and I didn’t have a job for a few months I was running low on money so I got I went to work for a construction crew of Joves witnesses and I was working with them for a few months. And this is around probably around August. I started classes at Penn College for mechatronics and shoe. It was like residential electric and AC and whatever. It’s pretty fun doing all that but sometime around September October she gets in contact with me again Kaylee and we start talking a little bit more and eventually I come to the point where I’m like I really want to have a relationship with her and I got to figure out if this is the truth or not. So that’s kind of when that was kind of like the turning point I wasn’t going to give up the organization for her by it. I wasn’t.

[00:22:52] If the organization was not the truth I wasn’t going to give her up because of it. So so I decided to do more research. Basically I came to the point where I was like if this is the truth I’m a stick with it. If it’s not I’m going to stick with Caylee. That’s that’s the point I came to and I did my own research. And I remember sitting there late at night and all this is coming back to me now. I was sitting there in my bed. Door closed. I already knew the whole routine from years of looking up stuff I shouldn’t. And I was looking up videos on youtube of people examining the Bible and eventually I started watching religionvs. Evolution Debates and God versus evolution in debates. I had kind of make that made a pact with myself at the beginning that I wasn’t going to look up any apostate information from Joves witnesses. Right. So anything about Jehovah’s Witnesses I wanted to keep it to the Bible so that’s that’s kind of how I started my Exodus. You could say is because of her. And I grant her all that we’re not together anymore. But I kind of give her that in my life. She she turned my whole life around you know unbeknownst to her. I remember texting her some nights and just like freaking out because I’m finding that my entire life was a lie. You know it and just telling her that all this information I’m learning she’s nice. She may have not gotten a whole lot of it because I was just going off and often off and off just these long long ass text.

[00:24:39] But yeah it was just crazy time. And nobody knew. Nobody I knew I was going through this and I didn’t want them to know for a while it was all within a matter of weeks and it might have been fast tracked by Caylee’s influence their arm that I wanted to be with Caylee. It was within weeks actually within probably a week I knew it wasn’t the truth. But in weeks I made my decision that I no longer wanted to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. We were like four or five weeks. And I picked a day December 19th to tell my parents and my grandparents to my best friend Trent that I no longer wanted to be a Jehovah’s Witness. That was kind of the perfect day. College was out. So my parents college had just gotten out. My parents wouldn’t be busy and they could like take the next month and a half to kind of go through their is going to be a Joves witness anymore. Very quickly I decided not be a JOAs witness but those were kind of the early things December 19th rolls around and I’m scared as hell. I had told my grandparents I wanted to talk to them that night. I told my I told my mom early in the morning my plan was I was going to tell my parents. Then my grandparents and my best friend that night we’re gonna go out to see Star Wars Rogue One for the first time which is a great setting you know that you’re going to tell your best friend that you’re leaving the religion but that didn’t really work out.

[00:26:19] My dad was out cutting wood because we burned wood and he got real pissed off and as he does he gets angry a lot. And he came in the house all angry and sighs like Alright I’m not going to I’m not going to talk to you guys until late at night. And because I was going to talk to them that morning in the proper order. And so I figure out what time came around that I was going to go meet Tran. He was out in service is probably around three o’clock or something. I decide to get my grandparents tell my grandparents and go straight to my best friend. So I put bolt I put together this Manila packet full of information. You know everything I’d found right about the pyramids Noah’s Ark contradictions in the Bible. That’s about it. And I was going to give it to my friend Trent and I stuck it under the seat in my car. I told him I want to drive right. I went to night to be on my terms. I picked him up. We went to the movie theater saw Rogue One is pretty good but you know it’s kind of slow in the middle little bit. So you know we were friends right. Right up to the end right up till I told him we were friends and we were joking. Everything I was pretty calm about it but we the movie theater was Williams where we got in the car and he was like I told him at the beginning of the evening I want to tell you something very serious. I had done something like this before.

[00:27:48] You know I told him I want to tell you some don’t make me back out. So you knew what what to do. And so he was like OK what do you want to tell me. I was like How about we drive back up to the hall. His car was up there. And so we did. And I put it in park. The bad thing was which I didn’t really want to happen was he had to work that night so he would he wouldn’t have to go to work. After I told him this I really didn’t want that to happen but I just told him I said and you know this is very serious. I no longer want to be one of Joe’s witnesses and he kind of stopped trying. He’s I think right now he’s like 22 23. He’s a few years older than I am. He’s always been the person I looked up to. He’s always been my role model in life and. And he was asking me questions about it. You know very you start getting emotional. But he was asking me questions about and I pulled out a manila envelope and I said it then I said if you want to take that’s all I found right now if you want to take that take that with you. Look at things. That’s all your choice. And he declined. He wasn’t yet. And he started crying. He sat right there and cried in front of me. That mean I mean that’s fine. You know I tried to cry I’m not a crier but.

[00:29:17] Yeah he I told him all that I didn’t want to be a Jehovah’s Witness anymore. I’d been I’d been doing more research. And that’s just the conclusion I came to. And he cried. He told me Well I hope you get through this. I hope you change your mind. And he got out of the car. I called off work. He went home and he cried for another two hours. He still lived with his parents. And he told his parents everything he was with them for like another two hours crying over you know your best friend we’re brothers basically because every well every other guy in our congregation had left. Every every other boy around our age had left. And it was just us to you know it was very hard. After I pulled out I went to my grandparents and I sat down on my grandparents. We kind of bullshit it for a while and then I told them Well I’ve I’ve come to the conclusion I no longer want to be one of Joe’s witnesses and my grandfather is. I don’t look at it in the same now as I did. But he was like what. And he he just at the start asked me why why why do you feel this way and then he said it’s all it’s all one blur the whole night some blur or whatever conversations I had I had the same conversation pretty much three different times. It’s all a blur and he just said I would never give up my creator over you know whatever you found. And I didn’t. I didn’t present him with the information they’re both 70. I didn’t want to.

[00:30:57] I didn’t want to ruin the perfect life they built for themselves. I just want to say you know I’m out. I’ll tell you why if you want to know but I’m out. And that’s. That night December 19th is the last time my grandfather ever talked to me. And we were tight. We were sure we were. He was the other guy looked up to Trent and then my grandfather and he dropped me like a rock. He would pass me in the congregation. I still want to meetings after that for a little while. I’ll get into that but I had said passing in the Kingdom Hall and he passed right by me when I say a word and so that was really bad. My grandmother my grandmother the very next day or the day after the next day. Yeah. Because I told Mom one day and then the next evening was Tuesday we had our meeting. But she came up and she talked to us and everything. You know my grandfather didn’t. And so I went out to the car drove home. I had one more conversation get through. I told my parents that and we sat up I forget what time it was I know we went out to an early showing me and Trent because I had a lot to do that night. No surprise probably got home around 738 some like that.

[00:32:15] And we sat up till ten thirty probably a night talking about it and I was present my arguments and I pulled out my my envelope I still had and and showed him all the arguments we were looking up scriptures and everything as to as to what I’d found and whatever and they didn’t believe they believe anything I said you know my mom my mom for a good month and a half two months she thought there was something else up. She thought I did something else that may have made me want to leave. I wasn’t I wasn’t leaving because I knew it wasn’t the truth. You know I can leave for doctrinal Propp but um yeah. And so then we went to bed and I I can’t remember what the next day I did. I know I stayed up a little while I know I was up for a while that night but my at my parents were kind of like on their tippy toes you know they were kind of like touchy around me you know they were mad. They were just like you know there’s a problem that I can’t think of a term but they were cautious around me you know try not trying not to upset me or trip me or not. I wasn’t really pissed off or anything I just it was different after that. And so for the next month and a half or not a month and a half maybe the next month every week at least four or five times a week we me and my parents would stay up and I’d tell them I didn’t have a job at this point. I had quit with the construction company full of witnesses I was with because you know I knew I wouldn’t have a job there after I left. Um did I want to have that kind of conflict for them. So I had all the time in the world.

[00:34:04] I wasn’t pioneering anymore because you know that’s all up that’s all out the window. So all I was doing my dad downloaded watched our library which I still have on my laptop and all I did all day was watch debates and look up stuff on watched our library for weeks four weeks I did that and eventually I got into looking more in evolution. I really got into it and really got a better understanding of it so that I could argue and debate with people about it. But like I said earlier my friend Trent he went home and his dad was an elder a big a big wing arrogation and he called my dad. And Larry was his name. My dad’s name is James. Larry called my dad James and they Larry said he’d get another brother in the current station and they’d sit down they talk of me and so basically we picked a date and I went to the Kingdom Hall and we just talked everything I’d come up with you know a little more stuff that I’d come up with since I told everybody because I was doing so much research. Yeah this is this is probably around the end of December. I sat down with Larry and Monty in the congregation during our congregation library and we just talked about everything. I had looked up and there they were going through the normal routine that these two brothers they are not they’re not knowledgeable in evolution and stuff like that. They’re not trying to. Sorry not arguing with me. They were trying to help me come to a better understanding. And we’re looking at different scriptures and whatnot.

[00:35:54] Basically they didn’t convince me of anything. I told my mom I said if they convinced me. You know if they can change my thinking then that’s fine I’ll come back. But right now I’m like No I I don’t think this is the truth. And so I went and I went into those meetings with an open mind. The first meeting they didn’t really convinced me at all they said they’d do their own research and they’d come back and we had a second meeting. And that meeting got pretty heated because I that was probably like two weeks later I had been doing more research. Totally different subjects. Now I was really switch it up on and we had our second meeting and by the end of it they took away my kingdom Auchi which I had a key workingmen’s. They took that away and I bet they would have disfellowshipped me there. That’s how angry they were that we were yelling says you get pretty heated. But both of those meetings were about four hours long. Four and a half hours long. But again I had nothing better to do. This was on my break between semesters and I didn’t have a job. But then come the next semester next semester starts I have new classes and whatever. And I think Larry got in touch with a certain overseer or somebody did. And the circuit overseer he handpicked a brother from the circuit to kind of handle my case. His name’s Fred and he’s he’s pretty smart. He’s younger than the other guys. He’s probably about 55 or something. Somewhere around there a lot more knowledgeable.

[00:37:31] He’s done a lot more research on this kind of stuff. And he always gave great talks. The Sergant assembly but Fred was kind of in charge of my case and he picked another brother and we’re going to have another meeting and we did. And we talked about and love it. And mind you I had looked up by this time no apostate information. I was still working on the Bible. You know why the Bible is wrong. I was looking up you know some Bible stories contradictions between the Matthew Mark Luke and John. You know and Paul is a counselor tons of contradictions in there and historical contradictions between accounts in the Bible and what actually happened. Right six or sevenB.C. that’s bullshit umB.C. but yeah. So basically I went into that meeting and that was right. That was I think that was a Tuesday night. And we basically had to cut it short because or end ended because there was going to be the meeting. That was a good four and a half hours long. And I was basically hitting them with everything. Evolution contradictions in the Bible. Pyramids Noah’s Ark Noah’s flood and all that. And he actually came out of that meeting confused because the brother gave me some videos to watch. They weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses videos. Believe it or not they were actually movies that were made by other religious groups about these kind of subjects and why evolution is wrong. Yeah. On YouTube that I came out of that meeting confused because I thought it explains some other stuff that I had problems with.

[00:39:16] I kinda figured that all of that would clear up once I did more research cause you know I just went home I looked up some of the things that they said and it wasn’t entirely accurate. I watched the videos the brother told me to watch. And it wasn’t really the stuff they said on evolution so long then joked debunked Jaso by then I’d had three meetings all being about four hours long and now at this point I felt comfortable. I said to myself Alright I think I’m going to start looking up stuff on Jehovah’s Witnesses. That’s when shit hit the fan. That’s when I got really pissed off really ticked off at this religion. I wasn’t mad at them I thought I actually told the brothers I still believed if the Bible were correct that this was the best religion to be and I actually told them that and I know I felt the sting of those words later on. But after those three meetings I started looking up you know. Child abuse among Joe’s witnesses blood transfusions. One of the things that really got me is how much they flip flopped on organ transplants blood transfusions blood fractions. The thing that really hit me was beards you know I mean why can’t I have a beard you know. So I started looking all this stuff up and me and Fred we had a conversation over the phone about child abuse and how the organization handles child abuse. This is really what took me off that and probably how many people have died from not having blood transfusions and I think I think our conversation on the phone is probably like an hour and a half about it.

[00:41:10] But I had excerpts from the elders book Shepherd the flock of God book and I knew they were accurate. The ones I had found out the PDAF because my dad was at work and I got I was able to get to his bag and I found a shepherd with a flock of God book and actually looked a Narron and checked it. So I knew they were accurate. I knew I could trust the version I had. And you know the policies their bullshit on and on how Jehovah’s Witnesses treat child abusers and that they actually get away. And I want to be a police officer now. So like that really irks me that cause all my life I had believed that Jehovah’s Witnesses have better morals in the world and they handle situations better than the world. But here here this worldly judicial system that we’re under in the United States handles child abuse better than better than the truth than God’s organization. You know that that really took me off. And by this point or maybe a little later I decided I want to be a police officer. Now I’d always wanted to be a police officer if I wasn’t a JOAs witnesses there. If I wasn’t a Jones witness either that or the Air Force fighter pilot. So we had our conversation on the phone and then talked to my parents and together they kind of orchestrated this idea. And now mind you I’m in college. You know I have my own schoolwork and my parents and Fred came up with the idea of giving me a paper assignment.

[00:42:46] They want me to write a paper on why Jehovah’s Witnesses believe they gain a few topics to cover why they believe what they do on a set of certain topics. Right. And. And they wanted me to reference articles from the Watchtower Library and whatnot and it’s supposed to be however long they wanted a reference page. You know they wanted the whole nine yards. I was like No this is unofficial. I’m not doing any kind of style. I should have my own stop. I’ve got my own work in school to do. But I did do the paper and by this time I was actually talking to a girl in Brooklyn. I was you know being a Jehovah’s Witness and losing your entire social network I had to revert to online dating and know anybody that I was talking to this girl in Brooklyn and very pretty. She is a Seventh Day Adventist but I was kind of sharing with you know could you do your own research. Her name was dorso. Could you do your own research Durso if you wanted to. You’re allowed to go to college they’re encouraged to go to college. They do a lot more humanitarian work for any type of people not just Joves Wences just kind of comparing things. And so what I learned from Torsella I actually put my paper.

[00:44:09] I compared the two religions and it was I think was like a a four page paper or a six page paper and two thirds of it was or a third of it was what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe lie and then the rest of it was why they’re wrong on them which was not which was not what the assignment was and that actually spurred my judicial committee meaning and I actually told him in the judicial committee meeting that this is not to be used as evidence in my meeting because I knew it was going to happen. You know it was bound to happen. I just told him this does not be used as evidence. This is just you know you sign this and I’m giving it to you to how I want it. And he actually actually told me he’s like why would you give this to me if it’s not to be. It’s in your judicial committee meeting which took me back a little but you kept his word he didn’t use it whenever that came around. But that kind of sparked that kind of sparked. Yeah. My judicial meeting sometime in February like mid February mid to end February I can remember the day I remember when I told my parents but I never took note of what day I decide to leave. We had the judicial meeting and I knew there’d be three elders right. I know it’ll be a long meeting. I put together an entire outline of all the things I was dedicated to covering in this meeting because I wanted I just wanted it kind of from my own records what was going on. So I made an outline and I went. I pulled into the driveway and there’s four cars. So there were actually four elders at my judicial meeting. All four elders that were kind of in my case and I went in and the judicial meeting lasted like 4 1/2 hours.

[00:46:15] Play as long as the other ones I think I know it wasn’t four and a half. It was almost four sorry. We talked about everything pretty much. You know we had already covered evolution and all that and that’s kind of the things those are kind of things that Fred really Fred was the leader of the room he really didn’t want to talk about those he wanted to talk about child abuse and why it felt that way. I was I was giving them scenarios like this we’re talking about child abuse a lot and how they handled it. I knew regardless of what they said. I knew what could happen with the current policies. You know they were trying to cumbered up and say you know it’s all good. You know not covering up the like. Soften it. You know it’s all good. You know we handle it appropriately and everything by it. I was given them scenarios like OK what ifs what if a man abused as a child here in this area and it comes out to the elders and because they’re saying how you know the elders will watch him. We’ll keep an eye out for make sure he’s not around any other kids. And but you know the police wouldn’t be notified if that wasn’t the law. And I just told them you know if a bit comes out of the elders that a man around here abused just a joke was when his child. They keep it under wraps day. And if it wasn’t a law around here I think MPW is the law. I’m not sure I looked that up at the time.

[00:47:46] But if wasn’t the law and it wasn’t brought to the police there’s no way you could watch him. He could. What if he moved to West Virginia or anywhere else in the States you know. He’s out of your purview. You could be anybody in the community. He could be could do anything else outside of your watch. And they were silent. Like they had nothing to say to that. I was completely owning the room but of course I was 41. You know they could they could interrupt me and they couldn’t you know literally blast me with all this information and I get to cover one thing they say. So who’s kind of an even in that way but I had an outline of what I want to talk about. And we talked about it and I brought all all the evidence I gathered. I had a giant folder. Man I had a tax record for the organization. I had I had proof that they were they were they had stocks in Boeing and Honeywell and these war machines right. You know I had I had stuff like that that I kind of I didn’t bring that up I don’t think because that’s not that’s kind of like information for me. No elders can take that and be like Oh you’re right. But I had run out of of the ship in the Fluck. They got a ship with the flock guidebook that I brought with me and Larry he’s sitting in there he’s like how do you get these. How do you get these. And I’m like Larry they’re on line there. They’re so easy to get. It’s unreal. Yeah. That they disfellowshipped me.

[00:49:21] They actually asked me to leave the room. It was so long are my judicial meeting. We had a bathroom break out there. Yeah. Now is a roomful older people so you know Blatters gets strained by 65. So you know obviously that would have happened but that’s how long it was. We had a bathroom break and then we came back we talked more and they told me leave. And it was like five minutes it took them five minutes. Like I thought it took them five minutes to make that. And I didn’t know what I was thinking. You know I actually came to the room was like wow five minutes night I thought it through in five minutes Xscape I got disfellowshipped for apostasy. Now what they got me on. They didn’t have anything on me except a Facebook post I posted to my friends and I made it public. Basically the title of the little blurb was I’m sorry again. And I guess I was kind of like an open letter to any girlfriends I had. Basically just telling them sorry for how big of a prick I was and how religious I was to them and whatever. And I didn’t name Jehovah’s Witnesses. And I didn’t name the organization. But I just said you know sometimes those kind of things rule your life. And I’m sorry that I was that way in school. That’s what they got me on. You know he kept his word he didn’t use the paper that I wrote against me because I made him not.

[00:51:01] But yeah they got me all one Facebook post and I got the sash of her posse. They would’ve gotten me on something else had it not been a Facebook post. After I got back after they told me you know what disfellowshipping you and I laughed. I gathered up all my evidence. Put it in a bag. I had to go to work that night because I was working third shift. So that’s how my night when nobody at work knew I made sure nobody at work knew I wasn’t what was previously Jehovah’s Witness for a while because I just went to see how I could interact with them. Without them knowing that and then I told them and you know they were supportive. But yeah I had work that night. After that let’s see I had a job. So I was getting know good income. So in college you know I still had a life that I was trying to build after that I was still living with my parents. My parents were still talking to me. My sister was still talking to me by anybody outside of that house was not wouldn’t talk to me. I found out a little while later after after her my disfellowshipping had kind of spread out among the circuit because I can only imagine it was kind of a shock because it came out of nowhere. You know it wasn’t like I stopped attending meetings. It was like in fact I was still attending meetings up until probably the second meeting I had with the elders. So I was still I was still kind of keeping up the facade.

[00:52:39] Among the people they didn’t know I was still I still my duties like at the time I was in charge like magazines. I wasn’t in charge of literature. I wasn’t I wasn’t in charge of literature. I was Arja territories and stuff like that. That’s right. That’s another fun fact. Before I left. Me and Trent we redid the territory for a congregation and I think even at the tail end like like even when I knew I wasn’t going to be a Jehovah’s Witness anymore I was still working on redoing the territory for the congregation faithfully you know doing them right just for them. Right. And so I still kind of had that I was still doing that even after even after the first meeting with the olders they kind of took that away with me from a pretty quick I couldn’t comment at the meeting or anything. Do any of that you know they said you’re not gonna do that. I paid attention more than ever before. You know at what the Jones what they were saying and I was looking to all of our scriptures than ever before but yeah they announced my disfellowshipping and my mom was like hey do you want to come with us. See it. I was like why would I do that. They’re basically executing me publicly. And I did tie into the meeting and a fun little story a few years before that I’d gotten training on handling sound right. And we had the whole tie in system and everything and you had to enter codes and dial a certain number to set it up and everything. And I was at home because I was you know quote unquote sick.

[00:54:26] And I went to stay home and my mom was with me. I was that young and we we’re going to die in a meeting and I typed in a phone number and then I entered the code for the sound system at the Kingdom Hall and so we were not only tied in the meeting but we were also broadcasting. So throughout the entire meeting anybody else tied in with us while we were at home were we’re hearing what we’re doing and we’re baking cookies. So yeah. So I. So I knew the code for that and everything. And so I tightened from my disfellowshipping using the broadcasting code and I muted myself. I didn’t I couldn’t I didn’t know what the tie in code was for just real listening. I couldn’t remember but I had that memorized and and I got disfellowshipped. It was I was kinda irritated with Larry because Larry announced it and there were like three announcements that night. And you know whatever was before it. And then Larry’s like and Caleb Tanner is no longer want to Jonas witnesses. On a brighter note like that’s how quick or quick it was like I said I’d put it. I got a little pissed off about that and I’m listening in. And that’s when the song comes around and I forget it was before the song or after the song I unmuted myself. And I said well there you have it folks or Shotton Snoddy you know I I wasn’t going to rock it for everybody or I did. I wasn’t going to come back on me.

[00:56:04] I you know wrecked a meeting for anybody tyddyn but that’s kind of like a fun thing for myself I could have done some Yes I just went through life there after that and it was I got back in touch with Austin. He’s my roommate because we really weren’t talking there after we graduated. We’re friends best friends in high school but we really didn’t talk after we graduated. And so we hung out some more. And I think we even went to the movies for like first time ever. I before before I left before I told my parents my grandparents my best friend that I no longer want to be a Joe was when I got back in touch with a girl named Sam and she her family is Joves on Ness’s she’s my age. She’s exactly six months older than me. She. But she went to meetings you know she kind of embraced it there for a while but then she kind of faded out and I stopped talking to her but I got back in touch with her again and so I was talking to her at the time. And I later texted her like we met and I didn’t tell her I didn’t want to be. Jones was a witness anymore. Then I texted her later hey you know I’ve made this decision. She kind of freaked out. It was a cool moment. But so I was I was kind of hanging out with her over the summer and sometime around August. And I we get back together and then Austyn I I kind of like Tolstoy was like hey what do you think about us moving in together.

[00:57:42] And he was up in Wilkes-Barre Scranton area which is like northeast about northeast of the state and he was at college there and he was I wasn’t really an option because you know I’m going to be going to college up there. But then like a week a week and a half later he text me back he’s like Hey call me. And we talked about just about moving in together. And he picked a college out near Pittsburgh for a reason aviation because the school he was out was so expensive and so he liked that and he was like think about it you know about moving out and being roommates. I was like oh wow that’s a big deal you know. But long story short I mean we decide to move out and we’re living our own some things I’ve learned since I left. People are evil people are worldly people are the world is not controlled by the devil you know what the world would be a very different place if it was you know Satan is not the root of the system of things. I was working at Frito-Lay when I left. And they’re so supportive there. I was told I was. I was so annoying. I was telling them all these different plans I had. And then a week later I’d tell them about different plans I’d made because you know I felt differently at that time a week to week. My plans changed and they were so supportive and I’d tell them everybody by the time I left everybody knew I had to leave because you know I moved by it.

[00:59:24] By the time I left everybody knew my shift and everybody was so supportive about it and I basically just found out that people are loving you know I can I can form lasting friendships with someone who’s not a job as witness. And people can have their own beliefs and their own feelings on things and that’s fine. I don’t have to shove my own beliefs down their throat. You know I don’t have to try and convince them I mean I’m open to a TV debate on any subject with anyone at any time but that doesn’t mean I should fight. I just learned that that I can be friends with with people that are not Jehovah’s Witnesses and that the world is a much better place than I thought it was. People are doing good things. You know the world is pretty fucked up by it. It’s not as bad as I thought it was. There’s there’s still hope. You know I’m an atheist. I don’t believe there’s a God if there is that be great. I really hope there’s an afterlife. That would be awesome. But if there isn’t. You know I’m I’m ready for that there’s a lot of things I enjoy about this life being free to talk to anybody I want to without bringing up Bosche Arawak that’s nice that I can pursue what I want to do. So I went to a police officer right. That’s fun. I mean I’m not saying being a police officer is always fun but like that’s fun pursuing something I really wanted to do. I wanted to I wanted to go to trade school in mechatronics degree because I wanted to do something that was kind of interesting when I was at Bethel.

[01:01:16] Yeah I was kind of really rooting for a position as a mechanic at walking for the printing department or or one of those traveling brothers that goes around and helps mean it’s for kingdom halls or being part of a permanent. It’s not called the RBC anymore whatever it is. I came here. I should know that I should know that because I’m under a year out. Right. Right. I don’t. But yeah I enjoy I enjoy the freedoms I have now and I’m actually going to basic training for the army here in January. I’m excited for that. I’m excited to join to get into the army. I kind of always wanted to be in the military. I thought that would be kind of cool. In contrast to my grandfather who you know didn’t want to be a soldier he wanted to be a construction worker worker but different stripes different folks whatever. But I’m just excited for the life ahead and for the friendships I’ll have. I enjoy living on my own relatively I mean I have a roommate that was on our own a whole new area a whole new. A whole new life. I mean don’t get me wrong I’m incredibly lonely. I mean when I’m home alone like I’ve been home alone for the past I don’t know. My roommate went to work at 2:00 for the past couple of hours. You know I had really nothing to do and it’s really lonely. And I expected to be lonely for quite awhile because you know when your whole social network goes down you’re going to be lonely.

[01:03:05] So don’t get me wrong I do get depressed sometimes but I know that’s not going to be that way forever. That’s that’s the other thing I learned. Life isn’t fair you know and nor is it nor is it going to be in the future. I mean that’s I had to grow up quick from who I was relying on my parents. You know I was making when I was working for that construction group I was working with I was only work and one day a week I’ll get like 60 bucks every week. And maybe 60 bucks a paycheck. I can’t even remember. So I was kind of relying on my parents a lot and going from that to telling my parents I don’t want to be a JOAs witness anymore. My mom’s like OK we need to sign your car over your name a little while later and you need to start thinking about after you graduate getting your own apartment. Like they started they started kind of you know get ready for us to push you out. And so you had to grow up quick. And when I say when I say I was at work telling them about a new plan each week I have a new plan every week. Nothing has been stable in my life for the past year. So I’ve had to come up with something new. Pretty much every week or every other week I see. You learn to grow up quick and you learn the minimum of course on my bragging or anything by it. I am not the man I was in early November I asked last Urla last November. I’m not the man I was entirely mad of my childhood.

[01:04:57] I’m not I’m not entirely angry with this entire situation. You know it sucks. You know it’s not right but I wouldn’t want to be anybody different. You know I’ve been through. I’ve you know before before I got out. No I could look at my grandfather. He was in Vietnam OK. And and he he is such a character right. I mean he’s funny he’s kind of funny. He’s kind of a jackass. But he is just his own person and everybody respected him for that. And then my dad he’s kind of his own person. He’s I mean he’s made his own you know made it into his own. But I wasn’t necessarily I was kind of living in their legacy. I was kind of living under them. So once I left I had something you know I mean it’s kind of a crazy something but you know that made me who I am. I mean that’s that’s a pro if anything of this whole situation. I’m I me I have mixed feelings about my family. I have mixed feelings. Well that’s pretty much it. I have no feelings when it comes to those in a creation I was with. They’re fine. They’re finally in their old life. That’s fine. I mean I miss them but I’m kind of angry at my family. I mean of course I mean this this you know early molten stage. You know I just got out by it. So I I can be a little angry but I mean if I could say things to them I don’t know what I’d say to my family.

[01:06:50] I now I’m in contact with my aunt. Her name is Lydia and she basically went through everything I did although in voluntarily she got disfellowshipped for something a long time ago and we actually stopped talking to her. I remember that I was I was younger and I had no understanding that but we actually stopped talking to her and um my grandfather did to my grandfather cut off his own daughter. So to my grandmother. So did my dad who’s her brother. We all just cut her off. My mom has never liked her. So I mean she knows my my aunt knows that too. That’s first thing we talked about was my mom and we got together. But having done that twice my my aunt got disfellowshipped and then she got reinstated and my family talks to her every once in a great while. And I don’t know if I’d say anything to them. I think it’d be really awkward if me and my parents started talking again and I think I just cost my grandfather out if I saw them again because for him to do that to cut off my aunt his own daughter and then bring her back into his life. He told me she has a kid. He’s 11. OK. And my grandfather told me he said the only reason we still talk to Lydia is because of her kid. We’re hoping that maybe something will click with him and he’ll become a Joves witness. That’s the only reason they talked to. And at all it’s despicable. And at the time I was like Yeah that makes sense that that’s how indoctrinated I was.

[01:08:51] You know that’s yeah that makes sense. You know I mean I had always viewed my aunt as some type a rebel you know a rebel that that I don’t know just a person that we only talk to when we had to right. And and now I think back that I told my aunt this that I told my aunt when my grandfather had said that you know she should know now. And I just would cost him out if I ever saw him again. For him to do that and bring her back and then drop me like a rock. After I told him I didn’t want to be a Joe’s witness he didn’t talk to me. Not a single word. I don’t know what his reasoning on that was maybe thought maybe I’d come back to him you know by just just for him to do that just ticks me off. My my grandmother I have a lot more respect for my grandmother than when she first all she actually talked to me afterwards. But she came up to me. I was still going to meetings. She came up to me probably after the first meeting with the lawyers and she she just told me like you know choose the best way you know choose the truth. And then she cried and she hugged me you know and you know I there were times during that whole experience that I felt unsure about myself. That maybe I had gotten it wrong. Maybe they do the truth. You know I was I was second guessing myself.

[01:10:37] And there were there was a time even when I was like Alright my mom for a for like two months after I told them that I wanted to leave my mom cried every other day probably. So there was a time where like my mom’s out in another part of the house crying and my dad kind of doing his own thing and I’m just like maybe I want to come back just to get her to stop crying just to get him to stop feeling that way. The only thing that the only thing that kept me in was that Caylee and I had had sex and I knew that if I came back and if I had if I had just given up all the research I was doing and just accepted that this was the truth I would have to tell the owners that we had sex that would all come out. And I’m going to be honest with that because you know and people can say whatever they want. OK. Well there you go. You left because you would have been disfellowshipped for fornication or whatever but that’s that’s the one thing that kept me from breaking down at that one moment at just to get my mom to stop crying. Now I’m living on my own. I have a job I’m paying my own bills paying my own rent. I’m looking for a career in law enforcement a career in the army you know I’m on my own. You know I have a relationship with my aunt side of the family that I’ve never really had a relationship with. They’re up in New York State and I have a relationship with my uncle on my mom’s side.

[01:12:34] Someone we haven’t talked to each other in person in quite a while but over Facebook and so I’m I mean I’m pretty good. Like I said I’m. I get lonely but I’m not. I’m certainly better than I was when I was a Joves when US and I don’t mean I don’t mean in regards to being happy or something. I mean I was I was happy when I was Johs when as you know ignorance is bliss. But but I’m I feel better about the person I am. And I know more about myself than I ever have. At 19 you know because I’ve been through you know what I’ve been through. I want to be a state trooper or work at the FBI I’d be kind of cool or some other federal like the DEA or ATF. Yes I’m like that unless I really like the military. I’m going in for military police. And by the time I get active duty because I’ll be go on. I’ll be going for training and I’ll come back in the reserves. I’m going to finish up a bachelors degree and then I’m gonna go active duty I’ll be an officer then. So I might just do that for the rest of my life if I like it. I don’t know. But yeah either state trooper or a big city likeL.A. or something like that or you know FBI you know some federal but you know I’m planning to make the most of it make the most of my life and do something that I can be proud of. That’s kind of why I’m joined the military.

[01:14:10] That’s kind of why I want to be a police officer something be proud of something that my kids can look up to me and be proud of me. And you know maybe they can kind of do what I’m doing or do their own thing. You know they’re free to do whatever but do something I can be proud of and respect myself for something that’s involved with my community and helping other people. So the song I picked a little more by machine gun Kelly there’s a line in it that he says it’s my favorite line and all the rap I’ve listened to he says they told me fight night I’m supposed to lose. So from my understanding boxing matches sometimes were fixed. And so this is kind of a callback to that. And that’s that’s my favorite line all rap because they told me that you know without Jehovah’s Witnesses what am I. You know that’s how I felt for a long time. And so you know that line they told me fight night I’m supposed to lose I’m not losing where I’m mad. You know I’m I’m in a better place. So in just a few weeks on January 20 30 Caleb was leaving for basic training. He’s chasing his goals joining the army and without any support from his immediate family. So go to shunnedpodcast.com click on episodes find Caleb’s episode here and you can leave a comment under his episode of encouragement. Now for a special announcement I recently recorded the story of David which will be our episode for February. However it’s going to be a little different. It’s also very involved. It’s quite a heavy story and it’s very raw at times.

[01:16:09] There was a lot to cover and the issues that were covered are very important particularly that sexual abuse with everything that’s going on within Jehovah’s Witnesses today with the two witness rule with the Australian Royal Commission and everything. So this is going to be more than one episode released one week after another in February. It’s also going to be released as a conversation between him and I see this as a very important episode. I encourage you to spread the word to other ex Jehovah’s witnesses or people who are shunned. Anyone that you think might be interested in learning how this how this aspect of things works within the organization. Additionally you know I just think that people need to hear this episode period. And so I encourage you to subscribe. That way you’ll get the next episodes automatically you won’t have to wait for maybe me to release an announcement on some site that you visit to see that is out. Please go ahead and subscribe. That way you’ll get them automatically. And you know I’m not going to make you wait. You know one episode of the beginning of February like I usually do and in one at the beginning of March or something like that I’m going to go ahead and release this story one part at a time I’m not sure how many it’s going to break down into as I edit it I’ll find out but it will be multiple parts and I’ll go ahead and release part one. You know one week in February and part two the next week. So that’s it’s not overwhelming but also so that you don’t have to wait to get the rest of the story.

[01:17:53] So I encourage you to do that. I hope that everyone is having a happy new year. You know we’re all trying to live life in this new world. Those of us who are shunned and I’ll see you in the next episode.

Mike Is Shunned By Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:14] Welcome to shunned the monthly podcast where we expose the religions that use shunning as a method to coerce and control. These are real stories as told by the person that live them telling these stories takes courage and the strength to be vulnerable. After this week’s episode I encourage you to go to shunnedpodcast.com and leave a message for the person that told their story by commenting on their episode. I’ve told mine and it means a lot to hear from people that can relate. Each person will be able to read and respond to your messages of encouragement. Now let’s listen to this month’s real life story of being shown a mike twice over. And I was born and raised Joe’s with us. I’m actually not not not really Shunda because I’m inactive like I wasn’t disfellowshipped and I’ve never dissociated or anything but anyway I was born and raised in that so I never saw the outside world that much kid. My parents were actually both in the Navy and my mom had joined when she was pretty young I think but I think maybe when she left to finish high school so must be been 18 because from the way I was told the story which I’ve only been told the story by a handful of times but she had joined the Navy and I think same thing with my dad pretty much so my mom is like this white girl from like suburban Illinois or suburban Chicago Illinois. My dad is from San Antonio Texas.

[00:01:53] I grew up in the projects having eight brothers and sisters so very different worlds and then they they both join the Navy and our members and my dad told me that he would always check out my mom and that actually like. Like he would go out on a double date with these two other people and I think they end up being married too. And then we’ll actually find the time my dad was dating another girl and then my mom was being another guy. And then they would double date and they end up being together. I actually kind of crisscrossed it so they both kind of trailed off or whatever then my mom got married. My dad like I think early mid 80s they were living and living in Hawaii for I think maybe 3 or 4 years because they were stationed in Pearl Harbor and then my mom was just checking my mail one day and a Jehovah’s Witness just walked up on her and then gave her Be Live Forever book. I think it was and from the way that my mom told me that she read the whole thing in one night and she would look after that and I think I actually remember listening to an episode of years or something else and then that was a common experience that they would get a book and then they would they would read in one night or in a very short period of time and then fucking hooked. Hey hate so so then my mom started studying and my dad wasn’t completely sold on it. But I think after a while he kind of came around to it because part of that they were looking for a church anyway but they had gone to like just typical run of the mill Christian churches.

[00:03:16] And I think they saw that that other Christian churches don’t take it super seriously. But I went to a Jehovah’s Witness like you’re taking it superset it’s like like you aren’t playing around it like it isn’t like the whole week you’re sitting and doing whatever you want and then suddenly you come in say 20 Hail Marys like it’s not. It’s not that cut and dry. So I think that was what my parents on it and then they were like OK this seems like they’re actually playing by the book and then they start studying and they got baptized mid 80s late 80s moved back to Illinois where I am right now to the suburbs again where my mom is from. And then I was born and raised over here so I never I never knew anything outside of it much really. So I don’t remember thinking much of it as a kid because it just because that was the way I was raised like it doesn’t hit me. I remember when people would be like like oh I feel so bad for you because you know you never celebrate Christmas or your birthday blah blah whatever but to me that was just life. And I mean even still to this day like I’ve been out for about eight years now but still to this day I don’t celebrate my birthday. It’s weird for me to even celebrate other people’s birthdays like around the holiday time since it’s pretty much just me and my parents like in this area and my whole family is in Texas. I still will celebrate holidays unless I have a girlfriend and then I celebrate with her family. But like I still don’t celebrate any of these things.

[00:04:41] And it’s not because of any kind of superstition or because of the religion but I’m just not used to it especially birthdays like birthdays to me are still weird because I give so much attention on yourself and you I’m just not used to that because I mean I was never introduced to them as a kid. And I remember knowing that I was different because I was pretty obvious even though my kindergartner was because I’m out like I was saying the pledge during a thing in kindergarten. I think the only kid my class and I mean maybe one of like two or three kids in my entire school. So I mean it was like it wasn’t many of us and seem like we would make a big scene once we did that. So like like I knew I was different but I didn’t really I guess I believed it because I was that age and I just didn’t know what to think. Even here my parents are like pushing it on me every single day. Yeah I like it. Like it didn’t mean much to me but it was just a normal part of life growing up. I think I viewed the world exactly how they told me to and it was just everyone else was wrong. And I still kind of have that like inherent view of the world about me still. Yeah. Like I like everyone else is wrong everyone else’s centers and like like not exactly looking down on other people but just just pretty much that like the rest is wrong.

[00:06:00] And then you’re the one that has the answer your you like your group of people has the answer. Which I don’t think varies too much from other religions. But but it’s it’s just really emphasized in the organization of Jehovah’s Witnesses. We would like to emphasize that you have the truth. Like I’ve even use that term which is which is a funny habit to break going on because like because it goes away after I didn’t even believe a thing about anymore I still call it the truth. But it was just because of conditioning because then else calls it bear as a witness. So I think going along with that point to. I know it’s all look like all the war games they would play and then not even know and live their light like light maybe a ad at a very high level likeC.T. Russell or like Judge Rutherford or something like that had expired using that terminology and then that was what what kind of bright everyone in. But now it’s just like subconscious and everyone just says like the truth as if like they’re 100 percent sure. I’m not sure other religions do that too. But yeah that was that was kind of how I saw it. Back then it was just the truth. Yeah. So I was never afraid of outsiders because I made it apparent that I was more curious because I mean like I was always like a little like class clown like a jokester kind of kid in a school. So like I would always play around with with other kids. I mean I mean me not saying the pledge or having to leave the room for like birthdays and stuff like that like it didn’t make me different.

[00:07:30] But I don’t think that other kids really treat me that poorly as a kid. I remember leaving the room when they would read Harry Potter. Once I was like fourth or fifth grade and I would just like draw and add and then play nowadays I’m a I’m a graphic designer so I guess I kind of built towards that. And I was always doodling in my Watchtower or whatever or just fly on the Ivailo like these you no paper that was taking notes on. So my parents were like relatively lenient lay low. They weren’t really super hard nosed about it like I had some friends growing up that did. I had one friend who his parents thought everything was demonized. They wouldn’t buy stuff from garage sales because they thought that like they would buy an old like a pepper grinder that had Baphomet in it. I’m not sure how that works but. Yeah. Like I never thought the outside world was was that big a threat. I mean if anything I’d want to want to have more friends so Deadman’s me whether they were witnesses or not. Like I know I did have this way of thinking. But even once I met friends as a kid I never try to push my faith on them. I never said that they were wrong but it was just kind of a way that you were taught. I never saw the outside threat or the outside world as a threat. I mean I was just more curious than anything I guess. So I had I had moved until like my third house as a kid maybe when I was about 9 years old.

[00:08:56] And then there was there was two kids who lived right down the street. One was two houses away away and then the other one was houses the way I remember I had went to the to the to the four house away kid. There was Carlos and get a Playstation here a bunch of games everything. And I remember the first thing I did was I went to the games and I was like alright I can play this I can play this I can’t play this I can play this I can’t play this like all mobile video games. And I remember that I think all he asked was like well why. And then I was just like huh yeah you’re right my parents aren’t here. And I mean I guess I did try to have this looming thing that Joe was watching me or something. But I was just like well. But I guess I just started playing playing violent video games. I forgot what the games were back then but I remember that that I play smack down a lot. Back in those days. But yeah me just playing stupid games and everything but that was. That was the point where I was like tainted by the outside world because he also listens like Eminem and like rap back in the day. So that was what got me into that culture too. And then once I learned of that culture than that I mean I like I wasn’t trying to be a witness part well yeah. Yeah. And that’s and that’s what I don’t understand about nowadays. I don’t know how people can still be jobi like.

[00:10:15] Like all you need to do is go to Google and then just google Jehovah’s Witnesses like like like the first link will beJ.W. dot org. But everything else is going to be some kind of criticism or some kind of like exposed video or something like Just go on google. Everyone has a smartphone. Everyone has a laptop or a computer or something or go to the library like research your religion from third party sources because I remember that they would pretty much preach tend not to look outside. And I was like Wait so you’re telling me that there is thousands of peer reviewed scientific journals. There is like there’s all this other evidence and information out there but we’re supposed to only read a handful of books from the last 150 years. No that’s a lie. That makes no sense to me. So yeah I like it but is anyone listening. That hasn’t gotten Google yet but I’m sure they did because they promised you know I remember one of the first times that I ever asked the question about like Africa what it was about. But I remember that I didn’t even get an answer because I think I asked the elder or it was my dad or something and whoever it was they told me and they’re like oh that’s just Satan planting a seed of doubt in your heart. And then what I first heard that I was like 14 or 15 years old and I was like This is bull shit like you’re really begging me to take them. And they’re like you know like sums up the year and I forgot what that question was.

[00:11:41] I wish I could remember but just just their response like this reeks of brainwashing you know my mom had tried to institute like a family study time and everything. I’m like Saturday at 2:00 o’clock. And I used to hate it so much. Like I mean like we hardly even did family dinner like I had a very isolated family and my dad would work he would. He would work third shift he would sleep in in the morning time and then he would just watch TV or just do like yardwork or whatever yesterday my mom would be on her computer. My mom has always been pretty technologically proficient and I got that from her. So both me and her I always use news like computers all the time growing up. My dad used to use a computer now Marty because he’s a he’s retired we don’t have a super close family. I mean we all still love each other and everything but we weren’t overly affectionate about it. Yeah. So they kind of like like they don’t force anything on me at home. I mean they watch what I did and and like my mom was like Okay. So it’s funny because I always tell people about how my mind was and and they kind of flipped shit about like the way my mom would react reaction back in the day because she would set up cameras to shoot set up like listening devices like just like little reporters just to see what I’m doing.

[00:12:59] And like I just always think I’m like if Jehovah is watching me and I’m judging me for what I’m doing then what’s the point of you watching me like if I don’t care what God is thinking of me then like what I care. My mom is reporting me. And like I actually have a thing. I prefer my mom more because she’s actually right there in front of me and she can take my ex by the way. But yes she used to like just watch everything I did and like I like it sounds bad but that was a normal part of life for me too. So even when I tell people like that story I’m just like yeah you know this my life growing up they’re like Are you serious. Your mom I did this live. So that was the only weird thing because I didn’t like like my dad was pretty chill. I’m actually I’m I’m I’m a hundred percent sure that my dad was a stoner when he was a teenager and he would listen to Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin I’m like Hendrix everything. And I actually kind of got that from him to blow up the music so much. But I’m I’m kind of a stoner nowadays. But yeah. So I think that he didn’t care as much what he did care but he just and he’s just a real chill guy. I guess that’s the best way to put it. So yeah. Like I never got it forced on me too much but I deftly. I mean like they always want me. So I do my Watchtower study. I could never miss a meeting. I could never miss going on a field service like I had to fake being sick so much as a kid just to get out of this.

[00:14:20] And so what people don’t understand about witnesses to is that you don’t get their weekend. We can sleep in and watch cartoons and eat cereal because if you have multiple congregations at the Kingdom Hall on Sunday then like you’re like you’re meeting could be at 9:00 in the morning 12:00 in the afternoon 3:00 in the afternoon and then if you have a 9:00a.m. meeting then Saturday morning you’re like waking up for field service and then Sunday morning you have a meeting. So it’s like you have no time to chill cause you go back to school on Monday. And that was like last for a year at a time or sometimes I’ll be meeting with what would be 12 or three and that was like a blessing until football season came around and would miss football. But yeah. So like my parents never missed meeting everyone in my skilled service. I would do my studies obviously like like no violent video games or even just the most innocuous stuff like they would like. They would mention like I remember I want to buy this shirt and this shirt. This is like really ironic thing that is just a major red flag when you look back on it. But I want to buy this shirt and this shirt. It said truth seekers it’s it like it said like something about truth dhikr isn’t that like there was a little paragraph of text you like super small text like Oh we are the ones that look Patru with them like blah blah whatever it was.

[00:15:34] I’m sorry Gerbrandt called academics back in the day you know and it looked like and then it was like a picture of a crane or something on it it was a thing like religious at all. And then I remember my dad was just like you know like you shouldn’t get this because people might get the wrong idea I’m like the wrong idea. Like if anything this like we call ourselves the truth. So this shirt should relate. You know like when LeBron James had that witness shirt. So it’s funny because my parents actually bought those shirts just but you know for the purpose of being a witness. Yeah which is funny. Yes. So I mean my parents are moderate. They were lean yeah except my mom she was a little bit more high strung. But I can understand why and why my mom would be. And it’s because like like your brother growing up and he went to school in Chicago and she got killed out here in the 70s. So I think I think I think her losing him is the reason why she clung to the religion why she was so overbridge overprotective about me. So I mean I can’t I can’t fault them too much because I mean my parents were doing were trying to do the right thing and they would do what they genuinely believed in. And this is just that me and them have different ideas of what’s right what’s wrong. My saving grace at the Kingdom Hall was that I was so like I said for the class clown. I feel like talking to people you know like okay so. So growing up I had had a few speech impediment. I still have my list now.

[00:17:06] But growing up I have like a stutter and that’s kind of why I can trip up on words sometimes I have to say like in between the words deaf the kind and slow myself down. But my saving grace at the hall was that I could talk to people and I actually like giving talks and I gave my first thought when I was five years old. It was just a Bible reading at a time because this was like 1995. So I just went up there and I had so much speech impediments like I would say Jehovah like de Hoba and I would try not stutter. I had my list but everything. So the one good thing about growing up a witness in the hall is that I broke my fear of speaking in front of people even though I had my speech impediments at a super early age. And I think they put my emphasis on my reading and like and like they put emphasis on education but only within the organization you know I mean like like as soon as the meeting was over as soon as we had a witness I was out of witness mode. I was just I mean I would still like kind of keep my composure but I would I would be playing with my friends joking around nothing to like lewd or like like I’ve seen back in the day but that was partly because I was around them too because at school. It was completely different story. My best trait as a witness was like was was was was giving talks. Sometimes I’ll be good out in service by the time we kind of did like it at all.

[00:18:27] I don’t think people thought too negatively or too negatively of me. I don’t think I was ever seen as like a bad influence maybe like. Like a few times because I was kind of making it a little bit more obvious toward my late teens. I was like not really following everything because I mean I just wouldn’t volunteer to hold my ex or rape. Actually I remember early on I actually liked holding of a microphone and then like passing it out because you might not be bored just sit there all day and night and listen to the same thing that we study two days ago with your family. I wasn’t I wasn’t seen as like as like the black sheep of the hall until I was reproved. I think when I was like 16 or 17 and then I got this fellowship when I was 18 and I think so I was never seen as like the black sheep until then. So life Galen Hall was was pretty decent. I mean you know it’s never mind sitting through an hour hour and a half old bible talk. But I mean having your friends afterwards like thankfully there was a bunch of kids and my whole and then that that made so much better I could only imagine going to a hall of like all people. So now you get to sit through like bible talk. But then you have to be the one kid amongst all these old people after that like this. Like that would be fun. So I had fun.

[00:19:41] But I mean at the same time what I look back on it like damn I could’ve been using that time even if it’s just a play to create more memories but I could’ve been you know like tinkering with like electronics or driving more or like building up my skill set or something else that I became interested in later on. I never saw the meetings as super negative but I also did want to be there either my witness life was completely separate from my real personal life or I meet her or how I would be at school or around my friend because like all my close friends knew that I was a witness by never led seep into into anything else I did. Because I mean you know like growing up I felt it was just a part of life. Like I never I never thought that was my entire life. And I remember my mom and I think a lot of witnesses have this term that they say double life like you’re leading a double life hand. Oh actually yeah. Like I remember like circuit Overseer’s I’m like people using that term back then but I used to think that was funny because they said that you were leading a double life where really you were just trying to lead your own life. Like there’s no double life like you acting different here at the hall. But I mean people also different at their jobs for how they do outside too. So yeah I never understood that terminology and that’s why they why they mention that I never saw it as as I Breaking Bad too much.

[00:21:06] But once I was so OK first time I was with the second person and talk about but but I’ll try anyway because because because it’s relevant by member because I have lost my virginity really early on I had like girlfriends when I was younger and everything. And you know I remember the first time I ever said but when I was like 10 years old. And then you think that you’re that you’re about to be smitten feels like feels the words come out of your mouth. But I’m like. But then later on I kept doing worse and worse stuff like I remember when I first had sex like like it did and it didn’t really faze me too much so I mean I knew it was like a big deal as far as your life goes but I never I never saw it as like being anything that Jehovah was just write me down for like like I did kind of feel like I could just go back to the hall and then just keep being good and then it would kind of offset that anyway. So so I was like so I had a girlfriend early on and I remember when like North Korea first started getting theU.S. to that world. This wasn’t the first time but I remember this was like I remember this was once it was it was in the news pretty heavy and around 2006 I met Kim Jong Il was talking about like bomb in theU.S. or whatever. Now like I may not I know better I would never made this mistake. But back then I was kind of just like super paranoid that the end was coming. You know like like 9/11 was five years before that.

[00:22:35] I remember once 9/11 happened like the way that that that this is teacher growing up is that like it that these things will happen and then the end will come. Or how the how the scripture goes I would have my head now but yes so. So once that happened once I heard that Kim Jong Il was like threatening theU.S. and it seemed like we were getting closer to war. I thought we were getting close to him again. And I remember like kind of just being super nervous everyday pressure because I was having sex with my girlfriend all the time. And I thought I was like Armageddon was coming and then I was going to be smitten and then you know I would die forever or whatever and out and I actually just came out to my parents and then I thought about everything I did. They like they had scheduled like meetings with the elders I’d tell them everything and then that was the first time that I was I was reproved. And I remember that left for about like well like not the actual reproves itself but just like my whole life zealousness had came back afterwards. And then like I like I take that serious for about a month after that are like a month after I first went to the elders and then I know I can kind of warm or out of bed or I just didn’t care that much like I did kind of believe it. But like I had this weird relationship with being a witness where I didn’t 100 percent believe it. But that was just kind of how I live my life. So so so that was just normal to me.

[00:24:04] So yeah I mean it was so it was kind of back to square one after that. But then once I was disfellowshipped. So like one of my best friends who I had quite grown up with since I was 9. So life like with my best friend was it was was getting married and he had like an out of date and everything and then I was just Falchion so I was trying really hard to get back so I could go to his wedding and then not be shunned. He like I think he was talking me through someone else like a sister or my mom or something. And then they told me I could go to his wedding if I want to well like wow wow. I was just fellowship. But I had I had chosen not to because I did cause I felt being a witness is a big popularity contest. And then and then if you’re not popular and then you show up around a popular person then them like their rap will take hits. So I don’t want to go to his wedding and make him look bad because to hear this this dispels a person showing up. So I’ve missed him going to going to look like my best friend’s wedding because I was disfellowshipped when I was 18. And yeah that was a really weird time because I was well what I’d switch high schools to like like halfway through so I was at new high school. I was out again shunned by people this was like toward the end of my high school career too. But like I had a girlfriend at the time to then and she wasn’t a witness off fiercely.

[00:25:26] So yeah it was it was it was a really weird time for me because I I was stunned by a lot people I didn’t know a lot of people at high school I was going to. And that kind of made me because I was a lot more outgoing and like I was more of a class clown like middle school. But but once I got to high school and then I change high schools and then I was in the process of being shunned to that kind of change my personality a lot actually because I mean if I still ahead if I still had the same kind of Christian life I did have a kid I’d be a comedian or something now. You know but like I do have that low spurts. But I also but like like I also see the part me come out that was kind of taught to me like midway through my heart. Where do my high school career was that. Just keep to yourself. Because like when you’re being shunned in this one place that you go to three times a week and then to like like you like you’re in high school where you were you don’t know anyone and you kind of have to make a name for yourself. But yeah all those things happened to me right around that time was probably the worst time that it could happen. Like like as far as as far as a like construct of time and like I’m like decisive time in your life where where we’re you we kind of mold your personality through those years. But I mean like I say I mean like I always say that I think I have a really unique perspective.

[00:26:45] I have two parents from completely different places who kind of brought us to the middle of nowhere as far as like where they’re from. And I have no family. I have no I have no like fallback plan. It’s pretty much just me. But even but even in that circumstance I still have had to leave leave the truth in and in the air quotes because I just didn’t. I just didn’t believe it. So even even even even through all that stuff happening at their high school I never felt obligated to stay or that that was my only my only method of making a making a life for myself. I’ve a lot of stuff to say about disfellowshipping like. I think most like I think most witnesses do. But it makes no sense that that your solution to the problem of someone committing like like a deadly center something is to completely shun them. Why shouldn’t I be the person that you’re trying to help the most. Like shit like shit like shunning makes no sense. I wonder why you wouldn’t be trying to offer words of encouragement or advice to someone who is in a position where they obviously stand and you kind of have to bring back to the light. I don’t know why do think that that’s an effective method. And it also to you I mean because Kazami isn’t married. Is there an instance in the Bible where Jesus is like sitting with like some Kassin.

[00:28:06] After I figure forget what he was doing with all my year of going to the Bible over and over and over again and remember anything anyone like I used to I used to be able to like to quote certain scriptures about remember much from the Bible anymore. But yeah I like as far as the shipping goes. I don’t understand why why that’s their solution to everything and also because okay so me myself. So I’m an actor right now. Like I was never disfellowshipped I was never I’d never dissociated myself. But what’s funny is that so I have a friend and his face. There was this fellowship in about five years ago and I remember my mom wasn’t talking to her at the time even though these were family friends. So no one was talking to her in the meanwhile. Like here I’d come along and I think I’d I’d like like I had my ears pierced at the time too. And like here I come along with facial hair ears pierced. Obviously not going to the hall and I can still talk to my witness friends because well not all my witness friends but I had a couple that that I’ll still talk to you and they don’t treat me differently. But like I just don’t talk to them what’s the point. I mean obviously it’s like I was doing this scholarship worthy things at the time and I and I still do. But I never I never took that route. So people didn’t view me as ever in that red area like I was in that gray area where I could still talk to witnesses. But meanwhile let me. But like me I’d like you here.

[00:29:30] Here is this girl who wants to come back who is just fellowship but they will talk to her even though she’s making an active effort to come back to the home. So it makes no sense and I don’t know anyone ever actually thought about objectively and also to like so. So like I get the line of logic that they’re coming to disfellowshipping being an option to lie. I get how they come to that point. But I think what happened was that at first they were like Okay we shouldn’t associate with these people so we shouldn’t be spending extra time with them. By the whole you know like treat them like a normal human being. But I think what happened is that since like being a witness is a big popularity contest like one person is like Okay well I’m not going to hang out with a person outside the home. And the next person is like Okay well that I’ve taught that person and the next person is like Okay well I’m I’m going to look at that person and then that’s pretty much what comes down to it. If there are witnesses like we’ll not even look at you sometimes and what you just gossip like even even so much as exchanging a smile like like kind of like shows or really on that person. So yeah like the whole concept of disfellowshipping just doesn’t make much sense to me. I think that if someone is in these dire straits as far as their faith bill goes then you should be helping to support that and not completely shutting people away. You watch you all and it feels like you’re invisible.

[00:30:54] Because people just look at you like unless maybe the elders would maybe come up to you and I talk to you sometimes if they want to have a talk and see how you’re doing. But that was only like every few weeks or like a month or whatever. I mean I was a fellowship for six or seven months. They say six months. But they rarely let you in right back in six months. It seems like because I remember people who were good it who would get the skill that I remember from that day. I would like I would I would look out six months now why. OK. They should be back around this time but it was always closer to seven eight months that people would would come back. And I mean I made a concerted effort to come back. I just never missed meetings never missed books studies. And like I said it was pretty much just to make my friends wedding which I still did make. And I mean it was. It was to get back on good terms with all these people too because you know I lost all my all my friends from childhood once I got disfellowshipped yeah. Once I came back after seven months it like like it did seem like it just got wiped away that that feeling of animosity. That feeling of invisibility. But yeah. In the meantime it doesn’t feel like you exist. Well you kind of just are just floating through this hole. And then they’ll spread a bump shoulders with you. No one’s even looking in your direction. You feel like a ghost.

[00:32:13] And I’m like not just not just the part where were where people should be helping you pisses me off about this whole thing but just but just how did make you feel like I mean like like no one should ever be made to feel that way even even in the outside world like that supposed to be so big and bad. No one treats you let me back anywhere at night unless you’re a criminal or or something of some sort. But I mean like like I gave into a normal human urge. And then the Bible didn’t agree with that. So therefore I’m assigned to the end is seen by everyone as as as left to begin with. I don’t think it is. It just doesn’t make sense to me. I remember some elders would would come to me maybe every so month just a checkup and then see I’m doing our thing. They would really ask me any questions. Well I mean they would ask me questions but it was like they had like a guide book of questions. I was like oh who is Jehovah to you and then like was kingdom of God like it’s not like the questions they they go over with you for baptism but it kind of ask you how are you doing. And then I mean like I’ve heard that they can’t just observe you and make sure that you make it to the hall that you’re doing your study I guess like a Bible other. I mean they wouldn’t talk to you weekly by any means or at every meeting. And I remember actually to once I had once I had gone to so what I had done is I started going to a nearby hall when I was this fellowship. I don’t know why I did this.

[00:33:43] Actually like if it was just because I got disfellowshipped or what but I went to a nearby hall where I knew a few people but I could more easily sit in the back there and not see everyone I knew so so so like I like I kind of took a back door to that whole experience but I don’t know why I did that. Like getting back out maybe because it was closer to my place. And I mean I think it was part that I didn’t want to see everyone that I knew knew very well. So I went to a new congregation and they had a book study there too. Because I mean I don’t think that I don’t think that that any disfellowshipped people would go to a book study anyone’s house. I mean I’m sure this some kind of like like arbitrary de facto rule about but yes so that was that was my experience. The biggest falls apart never really had elders come to me and then talk to me too much. They would ask me questions here and they’re just doing. I had to write a letter early on to the elders and I was kind of just showing your remorse for what you’ve done and I think you do have to kind of echo those life those same sentiments. And in the second letter that you sent I’ll remember every setting and the other letters besides that. But I remember sending a like Molly reinstatement letter and the first time out kind of like I was I was kind of rejected which was like at exactly six months.

[00:35:07] But then like a month after that they were like OK we’ll let you back in. And I don’t know what that was for like oh no alcohol is just too bad like it. Because I mean I was a good writer growing up too so I could I could imagine that even if I didn’t feel genuinely empathetic about the whole situation about life about about what I was what I had done I wonder how they would even determine that. But yeah I was I was I was rejected the first time the second time I got back. But like I said that was like two weeks after my friend had been married. So by that point I missed the mark but I was just trying to get back in any way so I can just see everyone again and talk to everyone. I don’t think they would come to you. I think even if they saw you coming every week if you didn’t talk to them first like you could be going backwards for three years and they still would let you back in. Like I mean I think that you need to go to them first and then tell them like hey like I want to come back. One thing that I want to mention too is that I would never be in that situation if I wasn’t baptized at 12:00. And the witness is always trying to champion this idea that like oh Catholics baptized their love like their children when they’re babies. But you know like you can think for yourself and then and then like you can get baptized when you want. But like I said a million times it’s a popularity contest.

[00:36:26] So if you’re friends getting baptized at ten or eleven which are different you got baptized like nine or eight like he’s like the golden boy. And I hear you are not baptized not able to be behind the Ligia counter at the hall and then give our magazines to people like you’re just you know you’re like like you’re a little upon the in the in the kingdom whole world. So I never got myself into these extremely emotionally upsetting conditions had never made this or had I never had my parents and everyone else makes the decisions for me when I was way too young to make this decision. And I think that they really need to like I mean if they were to reform the religion because I don’t think they’re Jehovah’s Witness like I should be completely done away with. I think everyone should believe what they want to do but like I think that every religion can needs an overhaul and they need to look back at their values and just take out these extremely archaic ways of dealing with people and yeah like it just doesn’t have any doesn’t have any grounding in the current day reality or with how people should be treating each other. It’s just completely outdated. It’s funny that I did all this work to get back that I mean by doing all this work I mean just going to the hall and being shot every hour or like three times a week. But once I came back was I was maybe 18 and a half or something like it was. It was Wiggily come back. I think my friend I got married in June and I came back before the summer and it was like 2008.

[00:38:11] So yeah. So I didn’t think I was going to go to college when I was in high school. And that’s part of being a witness to is that they tell you that you died that you shouldn’t go to college that you shouldn’t seek higher education because they preach they that you should be out there pretty much evangelizing and going door to door. And you know spreading the Good Word of Jehovah or whatever. So I did find out I would go to college. So for about maybe six months after high school I was working at a factory that would be up at like 4:00 in the morning. Be there at 5:00 work until 5:00 in the wintertime. Like you don’t even see the light of day and you work for minimum wage like criminals at a factory like yeah this is not the life for me. I mean like it was fun. I never had like I have like a bad experience other than I have had to wait for. But I did think that that taught me the value of good hard work back then. But yes I was working a job at a factory and I was like Okay this is not life to me. And I had always like I was always drawing.

[00:39:14] I was always like trying to do my own little illustrations everything so I picked up a little bit of like 8p.m. VSS once I was in high school but I never did anything too much with it other than I edited my Myspace profile page but I figured what I wanted to do was get into some kind of art like graphic design or something Urd or something work on computers. I was always on my on my laptop back in the day and then I had photoshop and I would like this mess around that little bit. Saavik I’m going to be a graphic designer. And I remember what it was like kind of a struggle with my parents to get them to go out to get them to let me go to school special with my mom losing her losing her brother in Chicago as a teenager. So I remember talking with them about moving out of the city and then going to the school out here where I was going to the first day the Art Institute and they were kind of they were kind of has 10 abide first special with loans which they were actually right about. I should’ve never signed away with it for loans. But I mean I’m glad that that that I went to school definitely because I mean that’s what I’ve kind of made it like like made a living out of so far as making websites and I like doing design for people. Yeah that was around the time when I was mentally out at that time. I remember what my thought process was actually though so. I do remember before I moved to the city I was going to this like local college by my house and I took a world religions course. And I remember my teacher was like this like maybe like at the oldest like like like 35 year old guy. And I think one of the first questions that he ever asked in the class was he was like do you take the Bible metaphorically or literally.

[00:41:08] And then my first response was Oh well like literally of course you know it’s the Bible. And then he was like Okay so then you believe that like a guy god like God two of every species of animal. Load them onto a boat and they’re floated out like this huge ocean that engulfed the earth for 40 days and 40 nights. And then I was like Well I mean what you put it that way then you know I guess and the like and I guess that my life that my freight car despite tumbling down from there. And I remember for a little bit because I could I got back and forth with majors a million times in my first year of college. And I remember at one point I want to get in to like something to do with religion like I want to study religion because it’s always been really interesting to me even once I was in high school. I remember thinking that Islam was like was was like super interesting. I just thought how like like like like I mean how hot how submission is one of the basic pillars of of of Islam. And then you need to completely dedicate yourself to the faith. I thought that was kind of relevant my experience. And I remember that once I once had once I had dropped my parents that I wanted to study religion in college. They were really has tell about it and I thought that was weird too because I’m like how this is weird because you know I mean if you guys think that what you have is the truth why are you so scared to look other places you know.

[00:42:30] And I mean and I eventually didn’t go for that but I was the last week courses at my age that I could take my religion I would take. So I think that was one of the first lessons by which really should my faith. I mean now that like not that my faith was strong to begin with but that was kind of just like reaffirming what I had always felt and oh that was on 18 19. And then once I moved to Chicago and I was going to college out here I just completely stopped going. I just never. And I remember once I would come out here with my mom and then we would like to look for places. I remember the kind of cold and cold looking for came how to go to you. And we had like like I drove past a couple. But I mean I still have I moved out here I just stopped going and I never thought twice about it. I never I was never I never felt bad. I never felt like oh like I need to pray or anything but I’ve been praying eight years. I haven’t I haven’t gone to the whole eight years. I’ve read a watchtower. Eight years. Yeah I just completely just left and then I remember lay out lay down remember my parents asked me if I would if I was going to the hall what I first moved out. But I remember when I first got my ears pierced I like Gage my ears a little bit. And I remember what I first curious.

[00:43:49] My theory is I called them late late late at night because of this but I was part of them and I’d seen them every week and at that point I was like I got some news for you guys. And then my dad thought I got someone pregnant at first and that I was like I no not that bad but I pierced my ears. And I think that you know obviously I know it was a big deal but I made my parents have always been a better time of. They’re like Okay well it world like he’s going do what he wants. And there was never that much that much push back on me. I mean we did have a bunch of arguments like him ever in my first few years of being inactive not about me being inactive but just kind of like debating religion and philosophy and stuff. And I made it but it was always hard to talk about that stuff because anyone who believes in God that’s like their trump card is like a because I mean I could say you know there’s no there’s no rock layers that show that there was a great global flood like this. No. Kind of like all archaeological remains that could back this up but they just say the Bible said it and then that’s that’s that’s all they have to say. They only to back up with science or anything else. Gave my ears curious after that was that was like that was like my next stage of kind of being out of it because I knew at that point I couldn’t go back to the hole with my ears pierced you know. And I even like growing facial hair.

[00:45:18] He was such a big thing. But yeah but like like that was what I was completely out was my first year working out which is when I was 20. And so imagine that I had been shunned as a witness and that I was might be kind of like some I’ve shunned again it’s about Bastardo and active. I just moved to a new city. I didn’t have a lot of friends and my second high school class was new there. And then I’m going to college to this college that wasn’t that wasn’t exactly like a college experience it wasn’t my dorm is where you have to associate with people. It was like you would go to class and leave. So I was like really I’m my own out here. I remember my first year. I mean I would just work. I would come home from work and then I would like watch the office and bingeing on and then that with a cream treat Netflix day. So I had a bit of I was like pretty alone back then. I still made the choice to leave the religion because I just knew it like it wasn’t what I wanted to do with my life. And and and I knew that I had to take a step back and then see it from from you know a wide angle lens and then see what I actually thought about in it in context with other religions and actual culture and see if it it kind of reflected what I want to do.

[00:46:32] But and that there was a look at the conclusion that I came to I knew that I did do something else with my life they always frame it like people want to leave the organization just to go like live like debaucheries life and it and it’s not that way. I think it’s just that they see anything outside of being witness as being at the bottom. So I mean my favorite part of being out of the organization is you know yeah just being able to experience life for what it is like being able to get drunk and then not going to sell it because I knew some some some early like well. So I knew a couple older brothers in the congregation back in the day who were actually fathers of my friends and they would they would get disfellowshipped for for getting drunk I cinemagraph think they would do anything other than that. But just what I overheard that sound like it was but yeah I mean yeah. Like I think my favorite part of I also not having to attend to this faith. Three times a week. And then outside add to your own personal study then outside of that go door to door. It just takes up so much time and it makes sense that like there’s lot of witnesses who just like make a living for themselves as like as like cleaners where they go to offices and clean their homes and clean up whatever witnesses just franchise out a business model for home cleaning. They would actually be be like like I’ll be super attractive for them. They’ll be funny like spelled like like low stereotype loafers for the pretty way this is bad. Anyway I think my favorite part.

[00:48:09] I’d say about not being a witness anymore is there also that I’m not a popularity contest anymore. Like I mean I’ve always been I’ve always reacted really adversely to any kind of popularity contest. Whether it was it was at a high school or on the Internet or anything and then that was how being a what this was it was just everyone trying to be holier than thou and like and and then you’re constantly having to keep up with this image of yourself that you have to like look good. Like before Jehovah or before the elders or circuit overseer or are at the assembly earlier conventions or something. So I’m just glad I can live my life the way I want to and not have you. I mean obviously people are going to judge you. I mean being a witness is like is is you’re under the scope 24/7 at being just 24/7 and then just being able to live my life and not have to feel bad for it. That’s the best part. And it sounds like it should be a word. I mean it’s not like this shouldn’t sound like a human right. It is a human right. The whole concept of the pursuit of happiness is a human right. And I mean I just drifted away from you because you have to live by these rules. You have to answer to these people. Education. Make it make a make a hint towards going the other way or else working in a gang to shun you to end and then going to put you out like play off the group. I mean it’s just such a such a like tribal mentality.

[00:49:42] I mean that’s that’s probably like light light light like the route of religion is just like living in these tribes and trying to come up with with a shared understandings of the world amongst everyone else. And then it just becomes a problem once you get your own human rights violated or you get your own humanity violated. And that’s why I feel like what happens with witnesses sometimes even though I think they’re good people I think they’re all like really great people I think they’re well-meaning. I think they’re just misguided. I think that like they just fell down this track. And also to like witnesses you love these tactics that other codes used. And it’s not like it’s as simple as looking up what is called The Bite Model. I think it is the end. And then and then just seeing some some of these tactics that they use on you to keep you in the street without you even knowing why. I mean the first time that I read about love bombing I was like wow this is exactly like like like being a witness is everyone’s just like oh like like we have such love for our fellow brothers and sisters. And then why they preach this whole concept of like a gap a which was a Hebrew word for brotherly love I think. But if you go the wrong way and that if you commit a deadly sentiment and then you just fellowship well all that goes out the window. All that brotherly unconditional love goes out the window. So the unconditional love. Have a condition. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Like there’s a real life. Like a real strong divide of black and white in those terms.

[00:51:17] And I mean. And and as far as unconditional love it should never be that way. Yeah I was. That was kind of how that was just how it was. I mean no one ever saw anything outside of that was just how it was supposed to be my friends who were worldly. I’m still friends with nowadays. And as long as I don’t do anything terrible then will always be my friends I’m assuming you know as far as I’m crossed them or. Or you know yeah. Like life like commit some heinous crime. I wouldn’t expect them to ostracize me from their life. But yeah. But if you don’t believe in like I remember once I got that. That like that like seed of doubt planted in your heart by saying the statement told me when I was younger but I think that my second moment like that was when I was getting shot. So this was my first moment because this was before the previous one. But I remember I was going over the questions for baptism which is also just learning the answers and reciting them later. Like you don’t actually get stupid. Yeah but I remember getting to the question and it was like Do you believe that Jehovah’s kingdom is an actual place or like life or heart condition. And once I read that I was like a heart condition like like having something wrong with your heart. It’s not me. And I was young every time I like 12 and I still knew that and I was confused by that question.

[00:52:51] And I was going over it with my parents and then I think I was going over it with my mom and my mom like so my mom was always pretty like on the edge emotionally like she had depression and my anxiety growing up and why she just felt like crying. What I could answer that question. I always thought that was interesting because the like why the reason why she started crying was because she just like she thought I didn’t know the answer to a question which looks like a pretty basic question for being a witness. I just don’t understand the wording of it. I thought it meant a heart condition. And I remember that they called the elders because the elders were supposed to come and talk to me my three days on there something and then and then they were supposed to go with the questions with me. And then they’ve called them and they were like no he’s not ready blah blah whatever. And it had. And yeah like that put a major seed of doubt in my heart right there I was just like alright like all I have to do is is is is like recite these answers. But meanwhile you’re acting like me not being able to understand how this question is worded is like a deadly sin in itself. The more I think about it it impacts everything about me. I’m like I’m a super skeptical person and I think that was a byproduct of being a witness.

[00:54:20] Not that they teach you to be skeptical but you naturally become skeptical because so like being being a witness isn’t like being Amish or something like You look like you’re still living in a normal world mostly but you’re just being taught these like completely different things so I think that being a witness taught me to be skeptical because also I think what is about to is that it’s a kind of questioning big religion like Catholicism and like all those huge like Sexo Krrish of Christianity. And I think that it taught me to be skeptical. I will say that I got like I feel like always reading the Bible and always reading the watchtower and everything back the day Duffie did help my reading a lot because I remember I was reading from a very early age and I think it was as I think was because my parents always wanted me to follow along with watchtower and everything and then I had my book of bible stories. So I think that everything that I do nowadays is kind of shaped by it because yeah. Like I mean like I mentioned I’m a very skeptical person. I’m a very pessimistic person and I and I think that’s because being witness to because it’s kind of telling you that Satan runs the world and that kind of all hope is lost except for except for this one day that Jehovah should come down after you been being persecuted and the Great Tribulation but not until then are you going to actually like life ever feel true happiness. All this is just passing you know. So that kind of worldview kind of stuck with me. I have a very interesting view of religion. But I will say that I have came around recently and I’m still not religious but I do believe in some kind of higher power.

[00:56:09] I think that because one thing that that this has always point to as their proof of God is just how the universe and how the Earth is designed and how humans are designed and yeah everything is super amazing and we can’t understand it. But I mean we can’t just say how big space is right now. Like I mean if you’re trying to sit down and think about it like it’s ever expanding so you can never grasp how big space is like a like if you see a picture of of the sun next to the earth that you’re like holy crap that is just that is completely just dwarfs it. And then and then the sun as it is is a dwarf star I think too right. So like that’s a tiny light love like it like a tiny celestial body. In the grand scheme of things so I think there’s of things that we can’t understand and we’re not supposed to understand because we’re just humans like we’re like we’re a drop in the bucket as far as all time has gone. And I think that religion tried tries to tries to attribute motives and attribute some some like deeper meaning of things to the universe. By me I think I think that I think that we’re all kind of here by chance and I mean maybe there was some kind of higher power that that affected us and then kind of guided our evolution in the way that we went. But I think just this whole like black and white view of the world where someone just came down and then decided that they wanted to just arbitrarily make humankind and then have to follow his rules doesn’t doesn’t make any sense to me.

[00:57:45] But I think that the way that I look at everything I think I have a pretty like balanced view of everything I know that there’s two sides to every story. And like one thing it changed with me too was that you know I was never political at all like up until a year ago really and now I mean like all i do is listen to like political podcast and then like YouTube and everything. But growing up I never I was never the politics at all because that’s it. Yeah because you could because you’re completely removed maybe because because they’re so so their way of thinking is that why get card in politics of today’s world when we’re kind of just wait for Christ Kingdom you know. So that’s one thing that that kind of change me growing up but without completely broken from that. I don’t know what other things it’s really affected my everyday life. I mean I don’t think about it very often but once I can think about and talk about it I do love talking about it because it’s just it’s such a unique experience and it’s such a. Like I feel like I was kinda kinda like a blank slate when I first moved to Chicago because I was exploring a whole new world of just living the life on my own terms like. I think that that is the way that I look at everything. It is kind of shaped and and influenced by that in some way. I was always at the hip hop and that I know is that people of Chicago have been making blogs and stuff. I think that they were doing it right.

[00:59:18] I think that they were like putting out that that good content. So I so am I kind of have my small business for a few years and I mean now I’m more into the tech world. I do a lab by design and you design graphic design. I get more into that. What I try about my own company. I don’t think that I don’t think that being a witness stifled my like my life will to be an entrepreneur or to be anything else other than someone who goes door to door every morning. So I think I do have a lot of big plans a lot big dreams outside of being a witness. I don’t think that that’s ever going to affect what I do in the future. But I mean at the same time I do recognize that it has shaped me and it has molded me. I do think that I read you want to work in politics of some sort which is extremely ironic because you’re you know growing up I was not in politics at all. And I mean I I thought I was stupid when I was younger too. But I mean I want to get like I want to form some kind of business whether I make my own YouTube or like whether it’s like a new hip hop blog or just some kind of app idea. But I do want to do something that I can call my own the one day and hopefully it becomes hugely successful. And from there I was like I mean I would like to work in politics. I would like to work in my local community.

[01:00:38] And then from there I mean if it goes farther that too. Like working on like a higher office like at a state level that I’ll be okay with that too. I don’t like the way that politics are going nowadays and naive and just because of Trump but just because of how how everyone interacts with each other and I think coming from a religion where I’ve seen people be shunned and seen people kind of be ousted as the black sheep. I can see how that could happen in normal and normal society too. So I would like to do something to kind of kind of the kind of curb that like right now I kind of have to get my old life straightened out because you know also coming from being a witness. If you want to go to college then you can have a do so. All of that on your own terms. So that was why I took out loans because in high school I didn’t care about high school because I didn’t think what you kind of don’t think of that. That school matters that much. Because I mean you’re like cut it anyway you want but being a witness is and it’s like being in a doomsday cult because they’re constantly preaching to you that it’s coming soon and that at an end like we’re in the end times and whatnot. Yeah. Like I never took highschool too seriously and because of that I wasn’t able to do well. I really do super well in college. But I mean I know what my passion is.

[01:01:58] I know that I have a passion for design and I know how to make into a business. So from there I kind of just want to build upon that and then just do my own thing. And I mean it’s it’s kind of ironic that once I look back on it now that you know like I’ve been drawing since I was 5 4 years old and if I had known back then I would have made a living out of it. I would just tell my parents about them like a. But these meetings I’m a. My grandparents house or something. And if you guys want one to want to kick me out like like I just want to drive like work on designing things I want to be creative. And I’m like I’m excited to be a pushy parent and my kid because like I’ll be pushy on them but they’ll think me like like by the time that a teenager is like like like what is playing sports or having some kind of like talent or a hobby or play an instrument like I want to make sure that the time that my parents had me sitting at a meeting listening to like the same Bible talking points regurgitate over and over again I’m going to have them like like learn a skill. Families do as Wolf myself as I believe I can I’m I’m. I’m good. They had a big idea like. Like I can’t just work out like a simple 9 to 5 and then expect to make a big name for myself. I could kind of like work out my little building blocks towards that point.

[01:03:23] I mean I just want to come up with some kind of idea that it could be a home run that’s going to be like like whether it’s a successful app or like a or just any kind of a successful company. That’s just what I’m shooting for eventually. What I believe now I think that the Bible and God is just the metaphor for yourself and then trying to be God like is just trying to reach your highest form. So whether that be getting up and running at 5a.m. every morning or working at the business or working on your art or doing whatever it like. Usually we try to become a god but God and your own sense and then that includes being moral not harming other people but just achieving but just achieving the pinnacle of your happiness and your success should be what being a god is to everyone and you shouldn’t have to look to other people to determine what the terms of being a god are for you. Thank you for listening again. Feel free to leave a comment to today’s guest shunned podcast dot com on the post for this episode. Music is always an important way of marking the journey and often helps us to process feelings that we can’t express at the time. So visit the website to see the songs chosen by each guest to represent their personal journey. Speaking of music all music on this podcast has been performed by Poddington Bear if you appreciate this podcast. Please help others find it while leaving a five star review on iTunes which helps the show rank and get exposure. If you are shunned and want to tell your story email me through the contact form on the Web site or if you just want to say hi.

[01:05:11] Feel free to do the same. If you’d like to know more about me and the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses I encourage you to listen to my nine part series on the cult at thisjwlife.com we’re on the podcast called thisJ.W. life. Remember that those around you may be going through something like this and that you have no knowledge of. So give them the benefit of the doubt love others do no harm and go be happy.

Emily Is Shunned By Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

Jerry The ex-Mennonite – Full Episode.mp3

[00:00:14] Welcome to shunned the monthly podcast where we expose the religions that use shunning as a method to coerce and control. These are real stories as told by the person that lived them telling these stories takes courage and the strength to be vulnerable. After this week’s episode I encourage you to go to shun podcast dot com and leave a message for the person that told their story by commenting on their episode. I’ve told mine and it means a lot to hear from people that can relate. Each person will be able to read and respond to your messages of encouragement. And now let’s listen to this month’s real life story of being shown. My name is Jerry. I’m 38 years old. I was a Holleyman man and I mean I am shom. I was raised in a hole in a church by my parents and I was a toddler. Our church was the only true church. My grandparents on both sides raised Irish and joined the Holman’s when they were adults. It’s interesting to note that they are shunned by the Irish for joining the Mennonites Fishell they are the whole of the church. His Church of God in Christ Mennonite two and a half years ago I and my wife made the decision to take the baby and leave everything familiar that we knew only lie outside. We knew that we would be shunned and misunderstood. Our lives would never be the same but we reached a point where we could no longer stay I’m the oldest of four children two boys and two girls. My earliest memories are in Nigeria Africa when I was 3 years old.

[00:02:07] My parents volunteered to go to the mission in Nigeria. We were there for two years then and then for two more years. When I was we lived in a bush village. My dad’s job was to help with the church plant there. I remember going to church with my dad teaching the natives children songs like This Little Light of Mine running over. Building up the temple. I remember driving through the village in our car and the Native children running alongside the cars shouting my name. My life was very sheltered and I felt cared for and safe. When I was nine years old I noticed what the preacher was preaching for the first time I heard him talk about how and how if we were born again that we would or Sarkin for the time that it made me I was going to hell if I didn’t repent and get born again tell my mom about what I was feeling. She told me that I should pray confess my sins and give my heart. I did what she said but nothing happened. It was just kind of like trying to do it. I felt very painful for several weeks. One day I got so sick of it. I went and prayed really in desperation and it all left. I felt for peace. I knew I was forgiven and that I was saved. I immediately told my parents they were silent all the preachers about it. We were still in Nigeria at that time. Several of them visited with me and asked me what happened so I was happy to tell them all about it.

[00:03:52] I overheard them telling my parents that even though I was so young they could tell it was the real thing. I felt like a celebrity. We went back to the States soon after that it was a real adjustment. Peering back to the states trying to fit in our church Birdsell store. All the other kids were good at softball and had their own jokes and I wasn’t I couldn’t even catch a ball. I felt a shame that the next summer my dad played catch with me almost every evening I got along. Bird softball I was baptized into the church when I was 10 years old. I was very excited and enthused. They take it very serious that since they are the Trucha. They want to be sure that no one is exempt from membership unless they have actually repented and been born again. It wouldn’t do to baptize someone the expert bird just made it up because then that would defile the church. So I had to sit in a visit with a staff of ministers and deacons and tell my story about how I got saved. Once they proved that I had really been saved and that it was genuine time I experience in front of the church for the Brotherhood’s true that was done with my story. The congregation was free to ask me any questions and ask whether I had truly met the law. I remember that it was quite scary but exhilarating experience. After person I was baptized by pouring water on my head and then I was a member for life and right all the ordinances of the church as long as I was faithful.

[00:05:49] By that time my dad had been made a minister so he was the one about ties. I remember he decided soon after peace with God told me that now that I was a Christian it read my Bible every day. Pray when I get up before I go to bed. I try to read my bible couldn’t really get anything out of it. I think I was young enough and simply carried no interest to me. As a 10 year old my main concern was being well liked in school getting my schoolwork done as quickly as possible and having fun with my friends. We never mix with people outside of our denomination. I want to give you a little picture of what my life was like. We had no TV or radio or any recorded music of any Christian or not Christian as the church had decided the General Conference that the recorder would simply read people away from God and not lead to greater depth of Christianity. We didn’t go to public places fairs in parks water parks we didn’t go to the zoo as that was looking for animals that are God’s creation. We were not allowed to take any pictures of anything or our homes addresses and round black head coverings for women to wear pants was considered models might cause the man who lost in sin. We never saw him before but I’m terribly fascinated.

[00:07:25] Whenever we were in a department store or an airplane where a movie was playing I counted my lucky to use musical instruments with pride for not beneficial so they were rah all our singings Rockapella young people are allowed to join the youth group when they turn 15 or 16 in their car car organized youth activities we sing at nursing homes once or twice a month went Christmas caroling at Christmas and played a lot of volleyball whenever we got the chance. Yes the girls played volleyball in their cars white dresses and we considered it very long. Holdeman young people do a lot of travelling around the states to different congregations for words. That is how they get to know a lot of people. Make friends all over the country. The young people were not allowed any courtship were dating before marriage. In fact they called Gorshin Khan a version. It was often talked about how carnal courtship would lead to immorality and so it must be avoided. Deciding who to marry. Very spiritualize. It was one of my mom’s favorite topics when growing a beer during a beer is mandatory for the men as that is how God created you. When a young man wants to get married he should pray and ask God for a wife and then God would start to leave his heart to a particular young lady. I can’t say this is exactly how it is for everybody in that denomination. I was taught that it would be wrong for me to show that girl that I’m interested in her I should be friendly to keep a proper space. When I felt led then I should talk to my sister about it. He would interview me to see if I was living right or not masturbating or looking at porn and then asked his approval. He would give a phone call to the girls Minister if she happened to live in a different congregation.

[00:09:39] Per minister felt that she was in a good place spiritually. He would approach her dad that her dad was okay with it. He would ask her if she would like to marry such and such as he is asking for your hand in marriage. So she did everything right. God was in it she would say yes. And then you would get engaged and live happily ever after. This spiritual way is what the church saw as was so much safer than the worldly way where people just go out and seek whoever they choose and try out different partners to see which one they like. Our education consisted of going to the 8th grade and higher education was discouraged. Any time anyone would want to something out of the ordinary. They would get discouraged and shut down. Phrases like well there may not be anything wrong with it but why would you want to be different than the brother. This has to be from theory made so uncomfortable for you not just by the leadership but by others. It was all just easier to blend in this time that we were told many times that a Christian needs to lose his identity and just be one with the church and the brethren. Where I’m going with this is to show how everything was done to keep us from us. Sinning. Keep us safe and strong being influenced by the wrong we are expected to find jobs with manual labor either in the construction or farming industry. There were some that moved into more techie jobs like housing or computer software programming or manufacture.

[00:11:36] I want to tell you a little bit about how the church deals with Sandy since it was the true church. There was very important to keep keeper free from sin without spot and blameless when a member becomes under concern of the star. The staff would ask for a visit sometimes individually or sometimes as a group. The person would be asked to repent of their behavior. They had a car that was a little too flashy so they would be asked to get rid of the car and read part of the spirit of Christ. Or maybe this kind of started to break my heart. Maybe they were suffering with depression they would be asked to repent of not trusting God or having an independent spirit. They loved to come out with names and spirits that people had and label them that way such as critical spirit Forest Spirit independent spirit lustful spirit. Just a couple of them if that person were a man their ways they would be like a la however if that person wasn’t making any changes they would bring it to the congregation in a close. Members would present the case and how the person has been asked repat but no change has been forthcoming. So they would ask us as a congregation Jisa or formally asking that person to retire we will go in support by raising our hands at that point. That person was in quotation marks honorary tax a sort of uncomfortable place where everybody knew about your problem and you weren’t avoided or shun but you knew you had that coming. You didn’t get your act together. If you managed to have an experience or encounter with God and find repentance.

[00:13:33] Then you visited with the staff again for them to prove whether it was real. If they said it was then you had to get up a members meeting. Kind of like when you were originally baptized. Tell your experience again from the congregation you were subjected to questions from the congregation and they were asked to vote. Raising a class whether they thought you had truly repented. And if we could lift that retained stronger so great. We’re back in full fellowship if you are able to read time. Then eventually they would come to the decision to take you out of the church. Since there didn’t seem to be any way for you to repent in that year. I guess my impression was that sometimes you had sent bad enough that God can forgive you. I must you had been put outside the fold for punishment. Since you were being a defilement to the church then there were scenes that were called death since sins unto death and usually there was any kind of sexual sin like fornication adultery or even a heavy petting or masturbation or looking at harm which was called lasciviousness. These sins warranted immediate excommunication. Other scenes that fit in that category would be premeditated lying or getting drunk. They take that from the scripture in Galatians 5 19. Twenty one word less salt works of the flesh and says that basically in my words they do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. So since the scripture says that you can’t inherit the kingdom of God if you do those things you find yourself doing those things. You’re already lost and going to hell.

[00:15:30] And if you are lost and can’t be in the church that must be Deleware not going to keep the church your but so that you can repent. Many times I remember a members meeting being called on short notice that we would go with heavy hearts and dread. Sure enough someone had done something immoral and was wanting to get right so I confessed it to one of the ministers and it had to be taken out of the church as soon as possible. When the member’s case was brought up her exit communication they were bringing up in a closed members meeting they would say the reason for the case being brought up usually keeping the details to the man. They would tell us again the reasons that the scripture teaches for excommunication to deliver such an one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so as to save their soul. Yes that if we were in agreement that this brother or sister be severed from the fellowship that we should stand to our course we always did. We didn’t dare disagree. It was always a sad somber time with a lot of tears shed right there in church because now life would never be the same for that person. We were not allowed to shame and expelled persons who eat at the same table with we were supposed to still be friendly and you would have them over to our house for a meal if we wanted but just couldn’t shake their hands or eat at the same table.

[00:17:06] If you had them over for a meal the customer would be to set up a card table close to the main table and put the expelled person have that table. It was always very awkward and uncomfortable. This was considered necessary in order for that person to feel the love of the church and be drawn back to the fold. We were told that if we just treat them like normal they will have no motivation to repair logic never made sense to most of those people that I saw expelled would eventually actually come back repent of their evil ways and then go through that whole interview process again first with the state and with their congregations. And then they were reinstated to full fellowship. Everything was back to normal except there was this was considered a very normal way to help people who were struggling to be good Christians. We were told that other churches who don’t practice that are not true churches because they let just anybody into their church and there’s all kinds of immorality going on with no punishment or judgment. Most other Christians are simply just playing church and going to church on Sunday so they can feel better about themselves even though they’re living in San. So back to my store and this is where I get things I’m going to talk about hope that someone can relate to there some details here I’m not I don’t talk about. So back to my story. I was given very little sex education from my parents and as I entered puberty I found myself very curious and interested in girls and sex and wondered a lot about found myself masturbating for which I was very guilty and the shame.

[00:19:05] I knew that as a Christian that had to be wrong for me to do so I would confess it to my dad and he would tell me to tell God about it and repent and God would give me a victory to stop doing that. So that’s what I did. But it never helped. I just recently was telling a friend about it. He said Jerry that’s normal like boys do that. And I said Yeah I thought I was going to hell. Oh he said they put the fear of hell on you. No wonder you were always confessing right. Yeah. So I can’t even tell you the terror I lived in. Most of the time and the shame I knew I was going to hell repent and I’ll never to do that again. I would feel better for a few days or weeks or months that I would find myself at it again even though I knew it was going to send me to hell. I first discovered pornography when I was about 16 years old by finding your magazine Rodion. Of course I confessed to my dad and repented of it but it didn’t help inspire this sin that I couldn’t control. I attempted to keep my life looking very normal on the surface. I threw myself wholeheartedly into the church and participated in everything that I was allowed to when I was 17. I got feeling so bad way about my last problem. I finally opened up again to my dad. I wanted to get back to God know that I was going to have I wanted to stop my behavior. My dad felt they had gotten bad.

[00:20:52] He better talk about it to the other staff biffo that I would need to be expelled in order to repent and to keep it from being a blemish on the church. I felt so awful but I knew it was necessary because I trusted them and if they said it was necessary then it was true. I was so sincere even went to the meeting that they call that was a mistake. I don’t know if I’ll ever forget the burning shame I felt as I sat there and they told the congregation about my problem. I was excommunicated of course and I just wanted to get out of there. It was so awful. I was so desperate to be well thought of and popular the youth group. And here now I was labeled. I had to sit at a separate table now for the rest of my family. It was so mortifying. Fishing was so thick you could cut it with a knife. I remember going along with my parents and younger brother and sisters to people’s places for Sunday lunch after church and then put on a separate table. I was convinced that I was a monster and these horrible evil things that I did. Even though I didn’t want to I sure hope this was going to work because it was sure Kayangel now looking back I just wish so badly I could have had a dad that would have just sat with me and said oh help you work through this Jerry and not given me all that shame. After about three months of desperately praying and surrendering my life to God I felt like I had found peace and was forgiven and I was ready to start life a new man.

[00:22:33] I initiated meeting with the staff and went in so enthused about what I had found so excited to be able to finally get back in the church less actively and then sent me out of the room so they could talk. When they called me back and they told me I needed to find something more here. What I had was good but they weren’t sure I had truly seen my depravity how evil I was brewing pattern. That was a real blow. I don’t want to into all the details but after another month or so I was broken and shamed to the point that it felt like I came crawling back to them with my belly sliding on the ground. And I was accepted because going through the whole interview process. Life is pretty good then for several years I’ve just spent in my youth group work with my dad. Building houses. Well lots of trips to weddings made shrines. When I was 21 I went to Montreal for 6 months for volunteer service and that was a real highlight of my life. I worked at several hospitals soup kitchens and it was a new experience to. Every day with people that weren’t holdings to go in and I would take care down to have discussions with them. I had a volunteer coordinator at the hospital where we were she told me one dairy. One day she said Jerry said What do you mean. She said most of the Holleman boys are here are very good workers. But they’re like they just do what they’re told they’re very good at being doing what they’re told are very compliant she said.

[00:24:33] You think for yourself and you ask me questions and you question the process. She said You watch out you’re not going to stay all of them were for when I got back from Montreal I was 20 and just turned 21 and I’ve been doing a lot of praying about getting married. I was tired of the youth group bands. There was this girl that I had met four times over the years that started to come to my ha and it was Cathy. So I prayed about it and we went through that process like I described earlier I remember being hit with a real. Is this really going I know I’m better pray. I said God I think I want America. But is this really going to work. What is the wrong one. What if it’s just me and very clearly I heard him say. Trust me on this. This is going on we’re and then I had the courage to move forward. And believe it or not she said yes. So getting married with not really even knowing each other was a lot harder than I realized they would be. I had this glorious expectation that it was going to be all fireworks in love. There was actually a lot of confusion here disillusionment because we were just both really very immature broken people we just didn’t know where and a lot of questions or questions and answers. But we both get nervous and make a life together. We had our first child about two years three unmarried and two years later we had our second child and then five years later we had a third. They’re all we’re our girls.

[00:27:03] I participated myself to church in India were became song leader at church which was an honor to be ridging. I was a Sunday school teacher sometimes. I even got Sunday School superintendent which was in charge of every other Sunday morning to have the introduction to the Sunday School before everybody left for their classes I expected to get married would completely fix any signs any hole I would have to pornography or those kind of things and I would be having sex. Shinedown. That wasn’t the case. But three or four years after we were married I found myself looking at porn shorthair about a child like I was back to square one. So like I had to confess it. I told my wife about it and that was a real blow to her. I told her about some of the things I had struggled with as a youth and that was a blow. She was like Why did I know this. Before we got married. I don’t know why nobody ever wrote I struggled with that off and on over the years with finding myself wanting to look at porn again recanting. It started to feel like I was starting to get back into this cycle of looking at porn and tending to reassure her once or quieres and I always believed that when I did that there was something really really wrong with me. And now in 2012 to my wife that I was looking at porn and she got really upset and said I’m tired of this. I had to talk to somebody. So I encourage you to go talk to my daughter who was a virgin.

[00:29:19] So she talked to Gaver know how but just instead Amanda is going to have to mess with me. So talk to them and say you’re going to expel I said No I don’t think so I’m very rude then sorry. I want to be involved with this I don’t think it’s necessary. He full meeting with the other ministers and he said yes it is to care. So Star was very shameful. Barbara Bush was very cool. And after about three months I felt so kind of experience you regret and was re accepted. But I knew in my heart that nothing had changed in three months later I was right back into it. Worse than ever. For the next year. I just live in denial. I’m involved in photography at until finally my wife confronted me again and I admitted that there was stuff going on. She insisted that marriage was going to be over unless I would go talk to her dad about so we did. We met with her mom and dad and I just opened up to them. Her dad is the first person that ever opened up to that didn’t throw me under the bus and he said Jerry you need to get a Christian counselor. He said I’m not going to throw your stuff under the bus you don’t need to necessarily tell and you need to fight because she Kasler by the way is a hole he’s in the hole in church as well. That was the best advice I ever got in my life. I started counseling. Oh I thought I looked online for a local Christian counselor. We found a man that deals with these issues.

[00:31:46] First someone that was. He heard my story and he sent me and commended me for being open to him. And he said I have three questions for you you need to answer through Tsar what is my first free. I saw you and I had no idea. But I start to understand a whole host of things and how I learned about family roles. And most of those I knew that my role in my family abroad was the gold child my mom. I was my Moscow child and I started to see the pressure. I’ve always been ordered to live on to the. I started to see there. I had never really emotionally separated from my mom. And there messily her revolver on her was the way she was between me and my wife. This is 30 years into our marriage. I learned about identity and how it’s important for me to have an identity and that was new because in our church I was always taught that you shouldn’t have an idea of I started to meet with a man screw every Tuesday evening. The counselors are. I didn’t tell anybody. Is that what you got. By the way at this time I had brought it up to all the ministers and I’ve been excommunicated Yeah. So we were living. I was excommunicated and having been through that before with my wife and with my children. We had attempted to normalize and we had attempted to where people would invite us over we would go over.

[00:34:09] And it was so painful confusing for my children and for me to for me to have to sit at a separate table at this time. I was excommunicated we just said no we’re not doing that we’re not going to participate that bullshit. So we spent a year basically alone. And it was it was a years learning and growth for me as I sat in that men’s group of men that were not holding hands. There was a loose thread man there. There was a man that was Greek Orthodox. There was a man that didn’t go to church. There was a Catholic a Catholic guy there Presbyterian guy. And I just sat there and listened to them talk and they would be given opportunity to pray at the end of the meeting. And I remember thinking when I started you know it’s always what I’ve been taught. These people have been Christians but there. Their knowledge is limited. You know they don’t really have the whole knowledge of the truth. Why I do but as I heard them pray their hearts in this hall I started to see that they were real but they had. I don’t know how to explain like I said that I stop looking at myself as better than I had more knowledge. And then I could feel their heart and feel that we were we were brothers. Even if we didn’t go to the same church and that was a real that was a real crack cocaine my belief system visiting with them one night after the meeting. I remember two of them asked me Jerry why are you trying so hard. Because I want to be saved. I want to go to hell. Make sure that I repented.

[00:36:23] And one of them told me Jerry you don’t have to do anything. Jesus Naseri said and it hit me like a lightning bolt right there. How hard I have been working for Amoun salvation all my life. I knew right then there was forgiveness that I was saved. And I started to see God in a completely different way. Fast forward a couple months and one of my friends a hole in the ground reached out to me. He was the only person that reached out to me the whole year and we started to talk and share ideas experiences. He introduced me to a book by John Eldridge called Journey of desire and that was an eye opening book. John talks about how our desires are from God desire Shemar. The Bible does say in Proverbs keep your heart with all diligence proud of it. She’s alive. I’ve always been taught that my heart is evil. Better not trusting because Jeremiah as the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked but John Eldridge talks about how Christ gives you a new heart. That’s in the Bible too. But that’s never talked about. Oh we’re all I ever heard was about my evil heart. There are opened up a lot of desire for me. And a new way of thinking like really mean the desires that God has given me are actually shrunk down. I read a book called by John Mica acoustic called Searching for God talking about how I recommend it to anybody who struggles with pornography surfing for God what if when you’re surfing the Internet looking for pornography what you’re actually looking for is God.

[00:38:36] But your desires are actually good it’s just misdirected. My wife and I talk a lot about this. Gardner started to experience. And we started to question whether I even wanted to reapply for membership in the church I said no I want to give it one more try. I want to give it another chance. I don’t want to be expelled for phonography and then just leave and never come back. We’re going to leave to make a decision to leave. So in June 2002 team reapply for membership and was accepted. In that meeting where I was interviewed this attitude of mine was called out where we refused to participate in the shunning or their voices but just simply isolating ourselves and several people asked about that call me out on felt like they were telling me that I should have I should enjoy being stabbed in the back. There’s a a answer here against having the bad guys smile about it for you’re good and you need to enjoy it. I just simply basically lied and said I’m I support the church the stand with Lloyd Insys what it’s called avoidance. It’s a church and that’s their stand. But. And so I was re accepted and I walked out of church knowing that I was done here I was back in full fellowship knowing I was going to leave. I just didn’t know where. My wife was devastated too and she knew too that we were to leave and she did away. But we had a new house today also we threw ourselves into building a house and that kept us preoccupied.

[00:40:55] That fall later remember coming to the conclusion that we were going to have to leave. And I told God God I can’t leave until you show us where to go. And he said right back. He said no you have to leave first and then I’ll show you where to go. You have to trust me. So I felt like jumping off a cliff. When we did make that formal announcement in January 2015 there was a song that became very very meaningful to us. It’s called This Is The Time of super chicks and the phrase in the song this is the time when you fall you’ll find that you can fly. There’s a lot of hope. So we stepped out of that church not knowing. Knowing very few people I knew a few of the men I men’s group knowing very few people had no idea what life was going to be like that knowing that we were done with our lives just couldn’t handle it. And as I look back now two and a half years later it’s just simply amazing the people that God has brought into our lives. Only one word no where to go next. I’d like to talk about several things that really fall books that are meaningful Open starting to crack crack. The belief system back in 2001 when I had an employee who was 20 years old. He was a wild child. Had no interest in being a Christian. I thought he had no interest in being a hole. Work turned out to be. He was a good worker but he and his parents were older. But I know he slept around with high school girls. Knew Then he was in a bad place.

[00:42:59] And then one night in November got killed in a car accident when a drunk driver rear ended him devastation. Our experiences were so extreme because I knew he was lost going to hell because of his lifestyle. But then some things started to come out about him that I didn’t know and there was some visions that people had that were kind of strange like a complete stranger came up to them and found them later I was there at the at the accident scene and said that he had seen Jesus standing beside the car. Then talking to this friend of mine this employee advising was Chen. Our cousin Chet’s had this vision where he was walking along a road with Chad and he could see that chair was in a good place that he wasn’t and how and his girlfriend dead and gets favorite song was this song by this culture Your love never fails. And actually at the Holderman as your my cousin and his wife sang that song. Your love never fails without instruments they basically down the sea from just your friends and listen to it. Roll it out and sing it out. That song moves me so much because I could tell them Well I actually when I was disobedient to the church and by the sightings and listened to it. And to me this was a rock band evil. And yet there were singing this song that talked about a guy and it just blew my mind like how could how could somebody actually be truly doing God if they’re not holding hands in Gisli mind didn’t know how to process that.

[00:45:10] It started crack going up releases the meter reader and John Eldridge wrote this book Journey of desire a suspension and then I read Wild at Heart which is about a man’s heart. How the church shames a man and keeps him subdued and all the frustration that brings. And I started to see that I was looking to my wife for my validation rather than to other men and to God and to myself. Henry Cloud blog Country Club material as well learned a lot of relationship stuff that I understand. The frustrating thing with all the self-improvement that I was doing a lot of this was over that year when I was expelled was I knew that this was helping me that it would be discouraged by the church. That just brought a lot of frustration and anger. There’s there’s a song that hit me really hard one day when I listened to it called what love really means by a holler talks about being like it’s the reason the song is Hulot me for me I realize that I had no memory of being. Just for me. It’s all like I was loved for what I’ve benefited my mom my dad and love based on my performance I’m feeling a little frustrated by what I would like to be able to do is logically give you all these things like this and this and this is why. We knew we had to leave and this and this and this is all new things that I’ve discovered. I’m finding out that I’m more of a feeling person and don’t much oh why i just had to leave was how could we explain it.

[00:47:42] And me coming along more comfortable was saying I don’t know banjo Gianotti demand certain here’s how we believe that you need to know. And here’s the logic behind it. I find that true spirituality is the answer. And you can be confident being uncertain. I think God is more of a mystery than something that somebody that can actually be put in a box and explain. And yes I see so many people that leave the home and church and want nothing to do with God because they equate the church with God because it basically is a god. What I discovered was that that god of the whole church isn’t God also dead. Right that there is a real god that doesn’t condone that doesn’t Shameen is invested in my healing as a person. That wants a relationship with me. I just kind of a la open mind about who he is and what he is my wife where we are right now. They want to give a shout out to my wife. Sticking with me through all this shit and all the things that we’ve been through incredibly hard I will not be where I am today without her. She has a real good bullshit Dr. and just simply can’t put up with it anymore and that’s got me I want to splurge forever. I gone today SAG’s when it came down to actually pulling the trigger. Lege I don’t know. I actually don’t have the courage to do it without her. When they decided that we’re going to stay. Well just we’ll just put up with it. And she was like Nah if you say I’m leaving anyone’s.

[00:50:39] I was like Leslie’s seems like wow the first year that we left was year in after third year the first year of the year a lot of fear excitement new experiences new people mad lot a whole lot of joy a lot of grief. The second year things just start to settle in the finality of what we had done. We were separated from our families. We didn’t have that many new friends. And I was so different. There was a lotta grief and I said a second year or the year this year is a lot better I suspect. I’m I had we left the church not wanting to be one of those bitter assholes like we have seen. Seems like so many people we see just angry angry Chirgwin all that and talk about all the times how bad it is and how evil it is and how mistreated they were. I was determined not to be one of those people who were going to leave. I had was claim and. Just go out and prove to them that we were going to have this amazing life outside of the church. This year it’s like we had enough space away from the pressure of pressure the performance pressure judgment and the condemnation that a lot of star have just started to come out. A lot of ways. And I started to see more and more of the things that went through how ridiculous they were how cruel some things are. Also people were treated a lot of anger is karma and a lot of bitterness. I’m just sick about myself to feel actually entered into counselling and therapy again for some of the childhood words they mentioned before for my previous cancer.

[00:53:05] I discovered that I was sexually abused as a child and learned how much that affected my thoughts and not to blame on that for my behavior but it helps understand the compulsive behaviors that I had. And going into therapy for some of that to help them work on some of that trauma from my past. So. I’d like to say that was just amazing place for her and it’s difficult. It’s not been easy but it’s been worth it. It’s been so worth being out of here three years now. The farther we get away from it the more we see how the whole thing made the final time I stop reading about where there are so many things in there that is simply that makes sense. Bible and God is like a weapon against me. And so whenever I go to read a I just get all this all speech all these phrases that we use all the time as far as church. I felt like God was going to lead us to another church that was going to be just perfect. And I was really hoping to find a community of people that believed in God like we were to believe in God. And we did find a church soon after we left. We even known about before. We were looking but we found a church that is comprised of a lot of ocean ice. And it felt like such a home. And I think it was really appropriate for that was timely for that time.

[00:55:14] After about a year we we just felt to start going there and follow all the messages that we heard that were so helpful at the beginning were just oh we were still here. We wanted more growth so we stopped going to church there and we tried several other churches for some reason. Whenever there is anything that feels like any kind of control or legalism it’s just a trigger for us who can handle it. So right now we just find ourselves not going to church. We do. I do go occasionally to a local church here. It’s fairly safe. It’s easy Sharina to sit in the back and listen to the music sermons are good at this point. I’m Avari interested in finding people there. There have similar mindsets that we can do life together with like real life not this. Go to church all dressed up Sunday morning life. And little by little we continue to connect with people. One of my favorite things to do. Is there is a local brewery here that makes beer. I never had a conference 36 years old like 10 or a couple and I love going down there on a Saturday night and just getting a beer and sitting at the bar and just striking up a conversation with whoever happened to be sat by. And I think a lot of friends that were just amazing people at a bar day. They’re there to make friends to let their guard down they’ve handed over beers and some of the conversations like people talking about as close as they are and what their what their fears are or what their life what they’re going through. That’s one of my favorite things to do.

[00:57:25] One of the things that I still like really hard is knowing who I am and what I like. I see people that are passionate about water skiing or hunting your fishing gear for ever. That’s one thing that I became aware of just recently is how much shame I carry about. I realize I feel like I’m a loser. Like I don’t have something that I’m really good at. Some hobby and I struggle to say what I like or you know what I like listening to the mental illness Happy Hour podcast sometimes with a guest Paulwell so take turns saying what they fear and then what they lock in so I’m kicking myself Irob or first things I love and I’m starting to come up with things like you know how I’m turning on the music in my bathroom shower hot shower. Now that just is like my favorite part of the day. I love music. I didn’t used to be only listened to. Now I listen to music all the time. But that’s one of my hopes is that I will be able to find things that I enjoy and not feel guilty about enjoying soccer is the new term. My Beauty is how I always live in our rear car. We do feel to your family and I’ve done the best job at it. I’m starting to discover that actually I have to care for myself first so that I can be job for my Hamline and it’s hard like I’ll take awesome reasons and going out with some friends and it’s great but they have to really fight with guilt really my family at home I’m off just having fun. Yeah I’m getting better at it but it’s part of the process.

[00:59:57] So I don’t seem to understand a whole lot. But what I like to think is that even though I said at the beginning that I am shunned Sharon is not my identity. I’m not a victim. Mine are much more powerful rescue. Mean I have a good a ha. I love people I love talking with people about things that are close to their heart Lorio. Rob I’m tired of Thay in Posey polishing her care how wrong it is. I’d rather have that than good rather messy than having everything together. And I still reduce that pressure to make lots of mice to be a good husband to be a good father to be a good person and keep having to take a step back take a deep breath and just say just chill out just relax. You got this. You don’t have to be perfect. I’m very passionate about reaching men because so many of us are disillusioned with life. I struggle with things I wish I had any sort of worth. Wonder why our marriage didn’t turn out like we thought I was going to wonder why life is a turning out. We thought it was going to. And I know that there is there that there is a possibility for a good life for real were living it strengthens me. As I find my way to living in true manhood masculinity are more clearly to others than others. There are starter I’m telling my story because that’s my story and I want to expose things that are secret. The shame that I was raised under I just have to continue to break that shame.

[01:02:34] Thank you for listening again. Feel free to leave a comment to today’s guest. Podcast dot com on the post for this episode. Music is always an important way of marking the journey and often helps us to process feelings that we can’t express at the time. So visit the website to see the songs chosen by each guest to represent their personal journey. Speaking of music all music on this podcast has been performed by Paddington Bear. If you appreciate this podcast please help others to find it. Leaving a five star review on iTunes which helps the show rank and get exposure. If you were shunned and wanted to sell your story email me through the contact form on the Web site or if you just want to say hi. Feel free to do the same. If you’d like to know more about me and the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses I encourage you to listen to my nine part series on the cult. At this J.W. life dot com or on the podcast called this J.W. life. Remember that those around you may be going through something like this and that you have no knowledge of. So give them the benefit of the doubt love others do no harm and go be happy.