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Welcome to the show and podcast where we expose religions that you shining as a tool to control people today we have a really cool live recording from my living room this episode little different than most listener to the show from Australia name Sherry actually came to the United States on a trip with her auntie Bev and they took time out of their trip to come visit my wife Jenny and I Sherry is a pretty freshly out X Jehovah’s Witness and Beverly was actually never one of the witnesses but she was very close to her family and she always gonna hope that you know maybe one day she can see them leave the cult behind so I had to Mike’s and we pass them around the living room and you hear Sherry and Beverly and myself and I’m a wife Jenny jumps into so stick around after the interview you’re going to hear how the podcast is doing what next month’s episode will be about and I’m also going to give you some highlights from the sun podcast Facebook group and what’s going on in their in fact I have a surprise audio from somebody in the group that I’m to share with you that I think you want to stick around and here it’s one of the coolest first Christmas stories that I’ve ever heard but some actually going to go ahead and announce something that you the listener can purchase a patent on the show in the future so be sure to listen all the way through it you might miss something that you might actually want to be a part of so this whole episode from start to finish has some unique aspects and I hope you really enjoy it so without further ado let’s meet Sherry and auntie Bev my name is Sherry I’m 43 years of age and I’m stunned all right and you were one of Jehovah’s Witnesses write correct all right and so how did you become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the first place how were you reborn in their morning so not much choice and okay so am and I know that’s the case with many what’s was the history there and what how many generations back does ago say on my father’s side he was taken generations that made me sit and my mouth I she’s the only one in his sinuses family he was a witness size second-generation on his site okay if you don’t mind me asking do you have any inkling as to what it was always fascinated by why people join so do you have any idea what it was maybe that attracted your mom to it yesterday and mom had a fairly traumatic childhood she would stay youngest to full and his father still quite ill when she was a little go on had brought on one of his older brothers seems to statistically close to was quite well mentally and he committed suicide at a young age and that deeply impacted on mom and pop from a myriad of other things that happened in his childhood say she was priest God from that and and quite vulnerable as a result you say very show to to say it when she spent 19 a belief when she was working day was someone who was studying Jehovah’s Witnesses and it was just waiting there with you bombshell recently has with Hanalei was recently out and this is what colleague of Hayes was studying that book and I think they were commenting on things that are happening in the world time the Cuban missile crisis send in a typical all the wills and mom was making the same comments Wendy’s what colleague it was studying told him about what she was learning with Jehovah’s Witnesses mom’s curiosity was piqued and she was given in trace book she rated him one night and from that was convinced that she had found answers one of the biggest things that impacted on had was the resurrection-the opportunity of seeing his brother again and that that remained for many many years today it is huge motivation for head on to be a witness and it’ll say seated his personality she’s quiet and it she’s a determined when she’s made a decision on something and she’s very definite say she can tend to tip a black or white should be quite decisive bunches made in a decision and that very much feasted very well into their ideology of and the culture of the religion I think that happens with a lot of people because if you think about it and how he sums that we hear stories of somebody I think my mom was similar and that she got a book and she read it one night and stayed up all night reading this book and just boom like she was sold that all she needed and I think you know when you have people were victims of trauma and products of that environments they’re looking for something some sort of certainty something that that they can look forward to to fix that problem and you know your mom had the hope of a resurrection right there you know boom in black and white and the known to the Scriptures they use in the narrative that they form is something that most people never heard so it was of these to talk about tickling the ears of people that exactly what they do they sell them what they want and then boom there sold and the ready to go so now we have a special guest on the podcast today we have anti-valve and I know that you got to see this change happened from afar so how did it feel so you you see her mom going down this path what did you think of it as you are watching it well I was very concerned is my baby sister is a Jehovah’s Witness I didn’t even know about witnesses it will have and she’s going to get married in the kingdom whole I want to know if it is legally married in the kingdom was a nice day she got married in a chair she married in a path goal the ladies always got the church and down she said yes was less than I can I find we went to the waiting that’s in I was also concerned because this – 25th could give a gift and has shifted to compile and cut me off I didn’t say them for a long time and then after. Of time I should have the children and I detected come down to see me at an angle point which was lovely but I still didn’t think of Jehovah’s Witnesses I didn’t realize that I didn’t really support Christmas at 20 not that because I hadn’t seen them that I came down and had to be Christmas time the Christmas tree Sherry said to me as a little go and if you’re not you got a Christmas tree so I set and Sherry and Donna down his sister and just how it is I have a different religion to here and she’s got isn’t this not a problem I’m not a bad lighting in just little things that that I didn’t really get to live too much and then father Christmas was coming along in the war, the bank subtle by skill sets and look father Christmas is coming not even thinking of getting wrong thing and the next thing Lana came out 10 past age available to me inside and then I realize it made a big mistake with children and the knock on the top of my husband because I did voting tells and I sat was catch 22 anyways I should’ve when I am and I still didn’t set them for a while after that that damn I then did get it to the kingdom whole was all and data was studying like it I would sit there and I went down singing hymns and I guess visible – it could not stay bullshit on and how anybody could actually believe in the shape dictated the truth I could not stand but so squashed so much love control I just couldn’t understand I am and then I went with Sherry to the kingdom home and I went to different meetings a lot but a few but I never caused any problems I went because I was going the same and what church I was at that manner where it is and and that then I went with Donna went to his as well one thing that really on before I get to that I would essays I was in Mexico and inputs and beautiful Black Onyx ornaments and again until Allah she came straight back I see what’s wrong gods I didn’t even matter what God’s tonight with just a little black ornament sarcastic at the time that upset me bit and then another time I bought tickets for together and say Jesus Christ SEPA stuck in your blood and he would like that that she didn’t get to see that this got the ticket or somebody I did was wrong but that all speaks to the fact that when these changes happen it impacts the family who is not only becoming Jehovah’s Witnesses and I have to ask you said that about how black-and-white it was that it seems like it was of a very sudden change that wasn’t what were you warned at any point or was it as simple as you you the birthday happens and boom that is exactly what happened I was born I didn’t have any ideas on that she was a Jehovah’s Witness she’s getting married and you didn’t do anything he could info etc. is such a fast change it’s like I’m sometimes you’ll see in the world at large a woman will get involved in them with a man and all the sudden was the first thing she does starts cutting off her family and things are changing as a system a sign of domestic violence and you know it it’s abuse and know in the situation as well here you go right away boom cut off the family is black-and-white it so fast and so harsh and it’s it’s sad that so many outside people get affected by that person’s decision so Sherry what was so we’ve heard from your and what was it like for you growing up in its what was the worldview that you had from growing up as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses what it means you thinking long and had a question to try and say distinctly it’s not an easy thing to try to describe concisely sure and I and naturally an optimistic person to it that like to speak to negatively on so even when I look back at my childhood I recognize the problems we did I recognize that the tremoring the damage I’m not that mom and dad to the base they could with the circumstances they had but overall I would have to say that he was was very straight very rule driven and now I recognize as an adult that they wasn’t’s freedom of expression for child you would not free to express to you where you weren’t even able to explore road to find you way that was to find for you you had to pay what you were told today children are told to be obedient to the parents and that everything mom and dad says is easy and to me I was a very serious minded child and not being taught I was the oldest side I had to set the example for my youngest sister and I felt that very keenly I tried when I was at school wherever I was not I a I felt that my role was already defined what I was supposed to pay and I’m the question was how well was I going to fulfill that role I didn’t even think that it was any tendency to that so if you were told at the meetings not to sing the national anthem you not to salute the flag will Justina? You just title line indeed that and if you mom and dad say you need to do something you just do it side now I look back and I realize that probably wasn’t really healthy but I don’t blame him and dad for that because I recognize that was to be for example many was raised as a witness as well and in a pretty harsh environment to mom was site keen to place anxious to place that I could say she fit into that very easily in St. wasn’t without some struggle side the tills might think that will buy young they were traumatized from they use as well trying to do the best they could not knowing not realizing that the central Mr. the pain inflicted on the link that’s case without being inflicted on the children to so how did you feel in that situation you just described very well you what you had to do as a kid did you feel that you were stifled in any way or did worry you kind of as I know for myself there were times where I thought really stifled and in the were also times where I think to get around the feelings of being stifled I kind of almost became arrogance where I was like well him just doesn’t feel right but I’ve got the truth you know and and so how did how did it impact you how did you feel as a kid going through it pressured pressure that’s a good word really really prescient day level of conformity that he had had not just conformity but that you need to be exemplary you need to show everyone the way of how you’re being loyal to Jehoiada and what you doing city was just enormous amount of pressure and I know the rest of the family felt that to is a small example after each district convention that they were not to much these days can the day new releases and with the new releases I particularly meant that from the ages of 910 11 mom would help me work out a little demonstration were a little presentation rather that I could take to the teachers at school so that I could place the book and I remember feeling the pressure of doing that mom put a lot of effort into helping me work out what to say and then I remember the days going to school afterwards since going to delete I have to do this. Have to place a book with his teacher and there was no the witnessing school was just me and was really that’s not that’s not what a nine-year-old feels like doing is in in essence even at that age I felt uncomfortable with taking a religious piece of material to a teacher in place in Iraq teaches which is being really kind to me all day so my nervousness and they just took the book and yes I went Heimlich cited I placed the book and then I could write it on my report card and handed it but that if you ask for a feeling that haps is my childhood I would pressure I think is probably the best way to come up with the other that’s a very good term that the we all felt a lot of pressure so you felt so much pressure as a kid how did that out of that manifest us a home what was life like at home as as a child growing up as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses what that feel like you was there a lot of joy did you get to go out and do a lot of fun things or was it more you quote theocratic activities or it was based on the activities cited the average wage ways meeting attendance field service your assemblies and conventions everything kind of revolved around that there were other issues in the family as well that made made life challenging and I space my disclaimer here is that I want to be able to speak openly about my childhood sure that I had no desire to ascend to upset guys that have been closest to me so I a and I’m grateful for what mom and dad did to raise the kids I know I take it the best they could sure and this is not about blame night we all we all have our own truth and it’s based on our experience doesn’t make it untrue just because somebody else might see in a different way my eye I space you like to struggle with not wanting to misrepresent them that sure at the same time not wanting to misrepresent myself sure say little life wasn’t easy and there was a lot of friction and it was a lot of arguing within the family and as an adult now I can look back and I can say what they contributing factors to with an eye I understand more clearly that at the child’s I felt fear and hide day was the in the threats of violence at it wasn’t necessarily violent they were occasions where was but it was just rated it so I amended feelings see full claim of what could happen next and and I just pressure weight because I recognize that I was you wanting precious child my parents had the feeling cell because they being pushed to conform to this ideology and the culture of being witnessed and united trying to provide for family dealing with health issues and family issues and say it wasn’t actually at all and I I remember some occasions way as a family we enjoyed one another’s company I I have to be honest and admit that they were few and far between buying large it was it was a difficult’s environment and I’ve recognized now as an adult that going to school was an escape because coming hi I felt anxious all their you see you saying that bring that up for me I remember I hated to go home from school I might take the long way home were to something just to not have to go home because it was there was so much stress there and the I know my wife is sitting here shaking her head the same thing she was out of a sow oneself everyone’s heard that story but now does that that stress is definitely there and you bring up a good point as hard as it was on us and we are the ones telling our stories and in and that needs to be validated in our families were under a lot of pressure and it’s very hard to try to hold all that together I really can’t I mean I know myself it was just the two of us trying to be loyal faithful witnesses and make a living we have any kids I can imagine what it’s like to try to do that with kids and and all the pressures that puts on you and I think people break in certain ways and violence might be one of those ways you know that the people, break and I agree that again with the hindsight adults would I recognize that with my my mom and dad they got married quite young when they still had unresolved issues that had not spent any time working on themselves sure seat to work out who they way and what made him teach and why it was that certain situations made them felt upset and anxious so when you’re young like that and you haven’t sorted those issues out and then you add children into it in a cult you gotta have fixed the home you’re never gonna have time to sort that night that’s right and only then this added pressure cooker situation it’s it’s just going to close also to problems say yeah there were there were significant issues within the family as a result that it wasn’t looking back now I I realized it wasn’t happy childhood as much as I’m an optimist and attractive look. Writes it wasn’t happy childhood sure but now you did say that school was an escape for you so how was it being a young witnesses school for you well some meisters my school life I was the sole witness certainly from kindergarten you money to that receipt from three to seek switch in a straight is your primary school well the East Coast and West Coast as this a different system again I was still the only witness and in use Ray yesterday I remember vividly I was nine and that ye had a really big impression on me again on that’s GDS very conscientious student wanting to do well having that reinforced at meetings that you unite gotta give you best and you told the manual serves to drive you going to the best said again that pressure always striving to perform is different and the kids didn’t know what to do with me a didn’t celebrate birthdays have to be excluded from that I wasn’t part of religious education Scripture class now I was taken to the library for that and everybody else was Christian site I pretty much the only one taken away from that Christmas of course and I went to my most vivid memories of that year was two things actually one was being given in an assignment to do on what we wanted to do when we grew up and united the boys in school of policemen and firemen and some of the bills may be nested well nine-year-old Sherry took this question very seriously and fillable what do I want to do when I grow up and around the same time it is simply I’m not circuit assembly while I’ve got this question mulling around my head to the pioneers we interviewed regular piney and I’m listening today interview and one of them says that the greatest joy she’s ever experienced is bringing other people into the truth and Mason nine Euros and that and I think that some of my school friends and I think could making witnesses to see what you think my school assignment was on what I wanted to do when I grew up I decided that I would do my assignment stats I wanted to be a regular piney when I grew up hashtag best life ever has to take you and I I got this pale blue what and I took the is the enjoy life stress and pressure that was to dismiss his 1983 while I already said my age psyche Dennis where that doing the math and I cut the pressure up the peaches step on the board explain what God’s kingdom was and then as part of this assignment you had to present it to the class you had to stand up in front of the plastic you cardboard and explain to the class and I get that the Jakarta time and if I want to do that I probably should I didn’t have my time but I got a merit award for a while and that that got told some house to at the circuit I had a second I see call me to do an experience which was very nervous about that I did this experience on these projects that I didn’t so that’s that’s Mason nine-year-olds I’ve been given recognition and everybody commends me this wonderful goal of being a regular piney so now my life course to set out the full me because that’s it I get this award and then at the end of the ye backing E3 they were seeks the ones that would be giving out for the whole year based on how you perform during ye and straighten culture we have a total puppy issue issue and a strategy you can’t speak too highly of yourself and that’s that’s a very Australian thing as well as a witnessing to on my name got called out for one of these merit awards I was one of the seats and I smiled I was happy I was dumb well the kids in the class were not so impressed so I got bullied from then on because I was doing well in school and I was different and I remember for the remainder of that year being ostracized from all the kids in school and walking around State quadrangle there and I had not a friend I sat having lunch by myself except what I did was I self talk that I had all of the angels on my site and I would sit day having my lunch with my friends and think and I pray to Jehovah and think Hale might not have any physical frenzy that I have all these Angels he pay you are my friends that’s how I got through heat three while you know it’s it’s amazing if you think about it though what there’d unwittingly what the doctrine does and what was done to you there is you just isolated yourself further so so the amount talk about the keen wall because then you’re going to the Gina was a kid and that’s where your true friends are supposed to be so they’ve they’ve made you do things the kind of pushes away all the other kids that that so that then when you go to the king of all those to be more desperate to have those people be your friend right so what was life like growing up at the quinoa for you know going out the ministry how did you come to fit in giving talks and doing all the things that are a young witness does as a kid say again as in nine-year-olds I started in this credit history school at that age as well start getting my fist talks think if my memory serves me really was the my book Bible stories that are going through that I remember doing some talks from Bible stories the gratitude that is it went any kids my age say I just I made friends wherever I could but didn’t really have close friends and because of that the dynamic family had we went necessarily always invited out with other families sometimes we were and and I always enjoyed that but it was small and often not the case so I that wasn’t what we just unite you went to meetings begin pressure that went comes back because it was expected that we answered up in the watchtower at least once side arm in Bay in their Sunday meetings China I need to get paragraph 21 yeah the pressure to get her into the unit and and you’d feel the eyes dads eyes looking at you you haven’t answered yet site yet that that was kind of meaning still say this well that’s in the days where there was a morning tea breaks a field since you outfield service for at least three hours solid sometimes longer and it was a foot slope and not not easy but I didn’t know any defy I didn’t know what else to compare it to that was that was the retain that was so normal life yeah it’s it’s hard to know what else you we don’t have any exposure to anything else which I believe is the definition of undue influence so all right so now how did things progress as you went into your teen years I don’t know exactly when you got baptized how to do that kind of progress for you before I get to the teen years and one thing that I would like to mention when I got you seeks my youngest sister came into school she was dating E3 when I was in the seeks and that was a really interesting dynamic and I hate realize now that the cult had a lot to do with why my sister and I didn’t get on because I was so busy trying to be the model child trying to do everything correctly my sister was trying to find heroine freedom of expression and I think she knew she didn’t want to be me she wanted to pay itself and as I saw it coming to use Ray she was doing things that I would never have dreamed of black she was active it was hilarious actually she got involved in their the concert at end of year what is that coatings training to get what they need to interview performance and keeps get up and dance and do whatever they want to suck little like recycled yeah let something like that will have the courage to get up and dance and do-it-yourself and she she did to video killed the radio star and I remember sitting there in the audience just that my sister had enough courage to do that but not only that she she bent the rules a bit she had a boyfriend when she was in high is not… That just means holding hands maybe and nothing else just Disraeli having friend is boy more than anything that I have dreamed of doing or anything like that site there was conflict between the two of us because I was doing everything that he was supposed today Don was pushing rules and I think kind of important storyline to sort of mention that because Herr and I had a lot of conflict between us as children I realize now a lot of it was because of that pressure to conform I was conforming she wasn’t that close conflict say anyway you seeks I need into high school then and that’s where things that interesting because that’s was 13 Dania seven and at that point in time the pressure began to get too much from him dad and they started to miss a lot of meetings send meeting attendance dropped off of the family completely on so much so that I remember one night we went to go to the meeting that was the second of seized is it in the not to being changed around and pretend that there was no one they are not thrown completely shown over the green revival actually exactly. Tightly messed up that that’s where we were at that point of time say we would be what you Tim spiritually wake at that time a field since was happening I remember XM and going to a meeting at that age and stairs said since he came up to me to tell me that I was now an irregular publisher because I hadn’t putting report and was horrified I didn’t really understand what he was telling me I didn’t recognize what it meant all and you was I was having to tell me something that wasn’t good sorry that’s where at that point at the same time at school there was an interfaith Christian fellowship group and again I’m still the only witness and it was my music teacher that Randy’s interfaith great and she started to show interesting me and asked me questions about my beliefs and I started to answer those questions she started to gain invite me to come along today meetings with one of the better way the gatherings that I would have lunch time without the kids my age and at first I resisted because hundred and nine Apple on great done anything to do it but after a while they seems like good people and they were reading the Bible and I thought what’s the humming going so I went that this wasn’t just any interfaith fellowship group actually speaking in tongues for a while say and it was it was an interesting experience in a sustaining euro because I was watching them I felt nestled time because I think I was thinking I should be but I recognized on you more about the Bible they did I had more knowledge with scriptures where they’d remember some equipment where was I went straight to it it was a very interesting experience ran the same time thy mom and dad decide we can move from Sydney and moved test to the outside country and my first thought I’m now not long before 14 on the missile lease friends right by me Bible as a going away gift I had no Mike’s eyes just got really quiet that that’s an easy way to get out of Sinai on looking at the Bible thinking can if I take the I cannot take Bible but it was white (gold adds to had pictures unit and I think with the new internationalization and I recognize that was a costly thing for them to get together and I thought this is a really nice gesture but I can possibly take place this this is can the close so anyway face I it’s kind of explained it to dictates that she can when you get there and you feel it take a brought me leader was to move the letter never got St. sure but anyway I neither side is just another example of how the Jehovah’s Witnesses you expect everyone else to bend to them and and even something nice like that yeah the lovely gesture you can’t just take a nice gift from somebody it’s a Bible of all things but not the New World translation and you will translation say you can’t go anywhere in your pajamas one of the door have their own Bible not that’s right say we moved to Paris and that was a huge transition that was just monstrous in many ways but I’m I mention the story of the interfaith great because to Mason impressionable young teenager that that made it very big impact on me because I felt like I had now tested the religion again something else it wasn’t like I been raised in religion and you know different I took that experience of six months getting to know the people in another faith as knowledge and experience for me to be able to pay the truth Jehovah’s Witness doctor again something else so when we went to Dick convention at the end of 1988 and I think if my memory since it was an international and it was the divine justice convention something happened during that convention that just really really impacted me and that was and they do it every international I now realize is you have candidates from other countries, and this particular convention a big deal was made about this international candidates it was a Saturday and Sunday I want to say this Sunday but it doesn’t really matter that invited the candidates to walk in front of the stadium and waved at the stadium and United residents get the emotions whipped up well my emotions were whipped up and I just thought now no other religion Dusty’s no other religion has is to grave unity we’ll talk the same thing doesn’t matter what race we this is nothing like that interfaith Christian fellowship group on bed squirming next to me on my for that it was at that point that I as a young impressionable teenager when this must be the truth sure and a few months later I made the decision that I wanted to get baptized and but I didn’t tell mom and dad that I went confided in a cistern coronation state when mom get found that there were none too happy that I hadn’t spoken to them-fest and I really know why I did that I just did they just say anyway the end of 1989 November 11 remembrance day I was baptized not just shy of turning 15 is a pretty big deal so were you the type that got baptized and instantly jumped into your sister so there’s not much I like and if I read that you are you the type who jumped into auxiliary pioneering or something like that you know maybe when you’re in school or in school holidays yesterday and was determined to leave school eating which I’d eat and I went straight into exhilarating pioneering for six months and I started regular pioneering in 1991 so how were you then 16 660 so then how things play out because you’re approaching young adulthood I don’t know how it is in Australia but here in America in 18 are seen as an adult and the that’s kind of what a big time in one’s life where things are changing usually graduated high school and now you can you have options go to college or not your witness but you can do whatever you you know that that’s where people start to individuate from their families and maybe you know move out on their own or you often these adventures as “adults I don’t know-fest the same in Australia but how did that kind of play out as you got toward that age well when I got baptized that made it very clear that as far as they can send from a spiritual point of view of the metal thing because whatever I did from that point on I stood in front of for say it was that no pressure exactly pressure say but causing a still child living in the time when I started pioneering after he left school I was looking for work and take that actually started working at McDonald’s that was my first job before I finish school I was doing that contribute pain board and try to contribute to my expenses in the household after I’d left school and had a bit more time of the site what it more McDonald’s and was of say field service a lot more started saving towards getting, because my goal was at the end of that first year I would be going to Piney school and I would need to drive in order to get Piney school sorry I had to have a car and had to have my license sorry that took my ficus really during that first G and I have to say I was enjoying it like I did enjoy it you got a true believer I really believed I was doing the right thing we were in a corrugation that had I was the 12th Piney it was nothing yet is a lot of activity it was there was a lot going on of the youngest Piney and I was made of lulls because it’s that I had all of these experienced pie knees that I could spend time with once he then went on sick wear afterwards missionary service like it was a happening corrugation so I look back at that time happy actually and content with how I spent my time and the ones that I got to spend my time with that you have a lot of friends will be safe the peer peer friends are gay I had a few had a few but there was more to come so I had a few that that I was close to on an ice testing on it at that age when you get your license starting to get a little bit of independence send I was enjoying time with my life that started to enjoy it a lot more when I got to 19 and made the decision to leave time and that happened because when I turned 19 useless goal but I wanted to go to Bethel as a single system living in Paris got a chance but I still wanted to go to Bethel so the money not 1019 and that assembly actually convention I went running up to the district and see by the way is now left the organization and is an atheist how often saying that often anyhow I went running up to him and told him 19 now I can apply and he said very nice T-shirt but what are you going to do in between now and Bethel because I’ve been pioneering three now and I just glibly went to what other options on the first single sister also needs greater and I said it rather glibly that he took it seriously went despite my father and told him and said off just had to concession Sherry she said she wants to save with an 80s is a need in these coronation Scott and is not pie knees she should talk about a book that took that seriously could district I’ve seen it going to talk to him sure I get from that assembly to find a stainless conversation and and that’s actually behind it he thinks it’s a great ID and mom was a bit cautious of it but she got behind it as well and all of a sudden let Michael watch as you now I can leave in high well to you just curious to know you’ve talked a lot about what you’ve been doing at this time where your parents you said that your parents had stopped going to meetings pretty much altogether with how was there meeting attendance during this period of time thanks for bringing that up because I missed that part of the story the minutes from Sydney to Paris was because they recognized the spiritual condition was poor and they felt that the lifestyle in Sydney because of the higher cost of living they would not make it possible for them to make ends meet financially and have all of the commitments in the religion site I felt best thing to do was simplify cell what heading Sydney (that way that up simplify in fact because of the properties they sold him in Sydney to buy out right in Paris and not have a mortgage and I get the sense that that so when we moved to Paris and we did that mom didn’t have to do it full-time dad didn’t even have to it full-time dad she started regular pioneering side he regular Piney for three years my first year of regular pioneering eyes locked the keys last year pioneering he would of pain 4C at the time and in his last year pioneering he was appointed an elder and was also diagnosed with diabetes type II when he was diagnosed with diabetes he felt the demands of being an elder regular pioneering working times too much so he dropped regular pioneering and focused on work and his role as an elder in the end he was noted for just 20s site a that worked out it didn’t got back to what it was in Sydney side probably the best way that I can describe that and I’m not sure it’s it’s it’s a interesting hypothetical to play out what would’ve happened if we didn’t make if we’d stayed in Sydney I have no idea where we would be if you hadn’t made that move so then they made the move and then so did you ultimately end up going to where the knee was greater as it may discover that so let me ask so asked Beverly so you’re not just a passive bystander and also you you you actually go to meetings with them at times and things like that what is you think when you saw Sherry you know what that critical point of time she’s not going to college and she’s about to come and go deeper in an and go do this the did you have any thoughts on that or were you around enough to see that line use it she was really interested in going to be and I need it she was a pioneer in the very ranges the mouth of the one to getting and I I actually went the weekend Sherry that’s another thing I type yet and that a lot of the past five to Sherry and is I am glad I’m glad to actually raise that because before I left time I was 18 said raping regular Piney cheese bites I mom and dad made it possible for me to travel back to the East Coast for holiday for three weeks we spent the first time that I was going on a holiday without mom and dad on my and I was going to be in Sydney and Brisbane we had dad has two sisters and one of his sisters is in Brisbane with my two cousins so I would get to stay with him for a bit and the proviso for me to stay in Sydney that he personally had to do with the babe was that she would have to take me to Bethel and he finally lifted that it was all right for me to stay with worldly relative sire and that ended up paying was the first time that I had seen any babes since we moved to Paris from 13 says a long time since I’ve seen hay and a lot has happened to me as an individual between 13 and 18 course sure so now I was going either day I was so excited to Bethel I was thrilled that I was happy to take me and we caught up with a complement to Carolyn and Llewellyn and Nana came yet that’s right host of the phytase and then it came as well but it was on the car ride back time afterwards was that 2 Hour Dr. back from Bethel down to way I chassis and because we just been to Bethel we had a great conversation and any babes shared with me has side of the story of what happened when mom became witness little bit of what she’s already said earlier now and I realized and recognize that the right thing had been done by any she had had things explained to head promptly and I the same time realized that in the early 1970s the religion itself was more fire and brimstone it was more black-and-white and it wasn’t really consider it anybody outside not that it’s really consider it now but is a little bit more attention given to trying to reason or explain things a bit more there are always lots you to cover up a really know how to look on and I remember that trip back being very impressionable of me for saying that I need to write a K she’s not a witness that she still deserves being treated with respect to and having it explained hair why we don’t celebrate Christmas Christmas super basil Mother’s Day or what else what it readies and not just a flat not and that that made a big impression on the associates from a different point of view is probably the first time that I had seen things from a different point of view you are seeing it anywhere as a person with their own feelings and questions about this instead of just out of just cutting somebody off just the whole yes and no thing that is so harsh and if you just explain yourself to a person even if they disagree they feel like they’ve been seen and heard to and everybody wants that nobody wants to just be cut out close to the site today was at the more you acknowledge the more you realize that it will be person is a good person yes you start had another conflict happening with the which is how can they be destroyed and Armageddon how can these people who are good halo and not causing any harm who are being respectful by taking me to Bethel and doing something completely nice you have to do that but she very willingly took me to Bethel site that’s being respectful showing dignity how can that be worthy of destruction site already and that those thoughts were happening course so pushed away at that time but it was a really interesting trip when I went-that was in 93 so where do you go from there so I guess I am glad that I just want to say something when they to Bethel yeah showed us around the place very interesting and now I’m squatting to see what they did and then we had lunch it was really nice because I had the guys had watch its neckties and safety regarding the meal was machinima Mrs. utopian society terrifically completely except had to get up and dentist prior overtime Leggat initiates a scene everybody have their limits so that ensure you go for a so then this was before you left to serve where the need is greater so now how does seems like a pretty tall order to ask a 19-year-old girl to go to another variation away from home pretty much really are first time out on her own and you’re supposed to you know be the only pioneer in this example and everything again pressure so what was that like for you going on that I was in an adventure or was it just filled with pressure of the boat that was incredibly it was I mean it wasn’t any possible for me to do a completely online weight had been sent out that this particular corrugation had one Piney and she was leaving set that would have nothing so it wasn’t just me fortunately they were not tied to pieties that had also been approached in fact the weighted gone out so that when when I moved into the corrugation eight ended up coming and one was announced every week for eight weeks while say it was exciting it was really really exciting site before I moved I got to meet is going to move in with three others two of which were Piney’s and we had a little meeting to get it aware Canada K we would relieve how would we make things work and say I think we handled it pretty well we we H decided would cook one night of the week for the whole four of us my night was the Thursday night and Friday Saturday Sunday night was a thin phase self or will going at socially said doesn’t really matter we assigned cleaning duties and tasks we had it all pretty organized we had a little jar full findings to define bill Chris that was before my ball finds everybody it did was actually a time before there was anyone fucking in the unit and we had a little Johnny said if we use the finally put coins into the wind bill came could handle it when the electricity or gas bill came in which divided it by four so you all live together really like a little hobby was the apartment in a three-bedroom unit really sire I seeing all were nine night and I had nothing was not taking little was in a block of eight units, and we were in one unit and yet had three bedrooms I shared the master bedroom with another bill, she was 17 and while I gotta say we had fun there we had fun it was a hot slope because you had new pie knees and none of us had any we can have very little ministries and no return visits we had nice studies we had nothing we need to build up from scratch site and I was first few weeks and months will join eight hours a day door-to-door it was a foot slug and a half it was tiring but that we had each other site citing getting to know each other for the first time there was a real buzz day a hole where it had any just been built the quick build and I think we do anything in creation six weeks but had its dedication and its dedication talk was done by the same district I see he had told me and for needing to that corrugation anyhow I look back at that time as joyous night and it was exciting as was my first time Anaheim and all of a sudden I had to make my decisions I didn’t have mom and dad to tell me anymore what was right and what was wrong and some of those decisions were challenged by what the others were deciding especially in the areas of entertainment and music mom and dad had been very strict tonight I don’t think strictest itself Jenny we did have a TV but I know but there were things that would definitely like dirty dancing and did not what’s that delivered things that and I was shocked to learn that my new Piney buddies not only had what state dancing but they enjoyed it and I was singing songs and I found this very confronting because I think they it was challenging your course it was you your seeing your people that you respect who are also pioneers who were chosen for this role and they have different standards that are held up as high as yours and as a pioneer you’re supposed to be the person setting the standards for the congregation so you were to be more upright and blameless than anybody you so minute sounds I can only imagine how hard it was because you didn’t have the return visits in the Bible studies that the scum of the easy time you are doing hard time knocking on doors eight hours a day trying to build that up just so that you could have some easy wins in their so now you’re late 19 right so how does that what’s the next milestone after that out is that progress as I go for you I in the corrugation for about three and half keys and thoroughly enjoyed my time but had had a lot of life’s lessons during that time and won one of the big things for me was I had noticed you have any corrugation to a group of friends to TEL clicky with her and I recognized in that time that I want to be the one left behind i.e. needed to be needed to be independent and I needed to be resilient and I had to protect myself side after a while I thought I think it would be healthy to move on you need to stop feeling of the territories and I decided to move back to New South Wales as a result so any bad vintage into the picture again he because I couldn’t move back to Sydney I didn’t know anyone in Sydney and Sydney seemed like a big bad CD to me that was very expensive so I looked again at what the needs list was and lo and behold the corrugation that covers the territories on the beds area was on the needs list and had to Piney’s in it large territory and I thought we could do sire I gave honey bitter cold and asked to see if it would be okay if I could board with her and I think maybe I should pass on the mic see you can tell that story received a call from Sherry design honey I’m coming at you New South Wales and a wonderful downwind began to live will point out okay coming in shortly okay so I spiked him has been Raymond and he said that’s all right she can stay down there with her grandmother the submittal flow we Kate said guests friends and shaken stadium right I kinda was terrific sire where she can manner I do not and I went to pick up at the April to Remember now I I remember happy because we had my car we packed that up with a lot of my possessions and put a train because I wasn’t in a drive train has to kilometers to get to Sydney on my own never say put that on a train and then I flew Isaiah on the midnight horror the slaves at midnight in Paris and it arrives 630 in the morning Sydney it’s a horrible flight but anyway I needed was to meet me at the airport yet with Nana and we then had to drive to Villa Wood to pick up my car and then isolate on if I’m in my car and Nana was she was passenger in my car to keep me away plane flying the whole night and I was tired and I didn’t sleep at Oak is also excited so here we drive down the three hours from Sydney down to Greenpoint to get Tammy and I really was always pushing myself completely out of my Constantine I I didn’t know what was going to be like in a country corrugation I didn’t have work I had since but this time I was working in the banking industry and I sent letters to all of the different banks in the area all of them had come back one by one thanks but no thanks to position sire and that made me feel any secrets I didn’t have any employment I wasn’t sure how the corrugation would receive because I knew no one at all sire I was really just pushing myself and testing what I was capable of yeah yeah you got me and honestly you don’t buy that aid you’ve Artie made a couple pretty big trips so you’re staying with Eddie about your in this new corrugation how did you assimilate into that did you did you fit in pretty well well as I said the country corrugation’s at least my city ways pretty quick on and I didn’t realize how CT fight I was sire I learned I needed to just dress differently I need to approach people differently I needed to relax a lot and just chill speak more slowly and not rush to get to my point and that applied just as much in the corrugation as it did to the ministry as well so I found a really interesting transition just trying to get to know people for who they were and I did really enjoy my time and now I had a great time it was also a real challenge because they weren’t as many Piney’s and stared Piney is that where around our schedules conflicted so far as to going to meet my 90 hour requirement others can have to do some alone time and that also challenged me and push me I did that that was very hard and I need to know not easy but I I worked out ways to to manage it and I enjoyed it IM I had a really good time work was hard for the first four months I was unemployed and when I first arrived to the corrugation the elders told me straightaway you need to go against interlink and get unemployment benefits and I found that hugely confronting because I didn’t want to do that on will always the one that wants to work for my money but they will write I didn’t know I was 24 months before I got wet side I went did that I was very proactive that trying to find work I made up flyers trying to sell what was that whatever I could do which was very much but was willing to do whatever then someone we been there little Township that I was leaving managed at Caravan Park and she offered me what cleaning caravan sauce yes salt do it thank you so much she was fantastic to me she was so good to me because very quickly she was then getting the opportunities to learn how the park ran and she offered me a full-time position to teach me how to manage the park I was only 22 and I realized this was a really big opportunity but attended down because on the Piney and that wasn’t spout of my life playing sure you are not alone there so right so you’re 22 and up to this point having anyone listening can see that you are quite sincere about what you are doing you were by all intents and purposes the model witness and now you’re sitting on a couch had we get you so so how does how does one go from this person who’s kind of driven by the pressure who’s performing who’s doing what seems like all the right things even has standards higher than the other pioneers how do you go from that person you are so many Jehovah’s Witnesses out there right now who are that person and you know I whack I was that person I was very sincere and I did the same thing so how does it all change for you what are the progressions that that go through your adulthood that that take you to where you are today said this point have to bring my husband yeah we got as far should I got had such an end that that story goes back little we first met Lynn when I was 19 and sat before and needs to scupper just in the months before hand actually and so I let it we thought anything of each other fist I do think that Sasha was one same price that I was leaving Hyman going on this whole new adventure and he knew some of the other Piney’s that identity just now met silicon in the same social circle and am towards this is not a 93 getting towards the latter end of 9993 psi 94 getting towards the end of 94 Sasha had he was also regular pioneering and he applied to do construction Bethel’s a suspect to Sydney well Bethel sent back saying no not to construction but he’s an application for the family and I knew as soon as he got that they wanted team in Bethel said he filled in the form and sure enough he gets accepted for a year not the three months construction that he was originally wanting but for at least a year and it was just the next few weeks before he was leaving that he approached me and told me he was interested in me from a different point of view now and I turned down because I thought you copy going to basil and be focusing on in your life today and still be tied to someone back time I just I didn’t feel it was right for him I didn’t think it was Faye so I said night and it upset both of us but I felt that was the right thing to do the next year 95 which had passed and Sidney were doing these the air flights there a line was doing special deal that you should go to Sydney for 24 hours he can database flights the midnight horror one midnight to six AMC contrivance in its exam and holiday in Sydney and then at 9 PM that I’m not crazy about you hundred dollar return tickets which is just upset sorry a group of us pioneers like me with a good free day from and share you in Bethel UK sunlight all really and that will am sure that you do we do that we always say there were three of us that went and I’d had to reach Sasha beforehand to tell you that we will can come over and could heal I said to her for said that we could see Bethel and lunch she had to be sponsored by someone had lunch they will Sasha organize himself to be the till guide and we were he’s gets to the lunch anyway by the end of that day as we went back to the airport something obviously was going on between Sasha and I and we agreed to start a long-distance relationship which long-distance relationships to hide for anyone who witnesses pressure is incredible that relationship and he lasted eight months because Sasha was brimming with at the flight he was what’s the expression single for the Lord single for the house they called it actually hey was an and bachelor in fact he wore a wedding ring to put single sisters a half why yes that was Sasha’s roommates Alan and Sasha didn’t feel entirely comfortable with this particular person but in this this brother basically said to Sasha you serious about the sister will not is this really what you want anyway London sure that he talks Sasha relationship and say Sasha then called me and break up the relationship send now when I tell you that I moved back to New South Wales we been broken up for about 18 months and my mother to the meeting back had nothing to do with Sasha was sometimes concerned I had nearly steak on the East Coast I was born that when I move back within six weeks Sasha cold and he gave and said that he knew I was Kenny asked if he could talk to me and I remember an event coming up to me with the sign in hand and saying stuff is fine you and I answered it and told him he had a hiding calling me after that we didn’t do but anyway that was some very interesting coursing dating as you would buy snow oh yes at Long story short we got married on 7 August 1999 hang on getting on said while Sherry Stein he with me is a knock on the door and she was nine meeting Monday night session and see Sherry Marshall class at all aborting inquisitor when the ship I don’t want to see my can see my as I said Sherry you Sasha come in place and lift them on if you are a matchmaker you have to been leading going on so you got married in August of you said 9999 nine and so how things go from there because you obviously he was a Bethel so that you go to nice I he was in Bethel for five years at that point I and ironically I’d apply to Bethel for he’s running I really wanted to get a Bethel but in others to do it kindly sent me and I stopped applying then actually as I can sounds really need help actually enjoyed being Piney site and I can see that our what any pavers just mentioning here is that while I did that caravan cleaning for little while my uncle bibs husband decided that this really wasn’t acceptable and he spake tiny bit about it told him basically find something else to they had a company where they were manufacturing and exporting underground coal mining equipment and on a bet offered me a job in the office today which was fantastic I got to work with them for 18 months had an absolute ball it was I learned so much it was a really great time and its height you guys you do the manual labor of cleaning and hats off to you I know how hot it is it’s hard work so I was thrilled and grateful to have an office job where I wasn’t physically pushed as much I understand you now as it was a great time on Peggy Sasha was in Bethel and ironically we didn’t have the opportunity of going into Bethel as a married couple straight off to marriage and Sasha and I get really serious thought with both a little unsure whether it would be the wisest decision for us and I went and spoke to assist a took her into my confidence to so to get their opinion because she had gone into Bethel Stratus married a wife as well for eight years she painting Bethel and so I asked him what advice you could give me and she made a really good comment to me she told me that what she’d had to do was she gave out the corrugation she gave up administration gave up her work she gave up all of her friends and basically was assimilated into her husband’s life and took on his friends his work his employment and she found that really challenging she said it was hard to define who she was and what her identity was through that. You know something I never even considered and thought about that and say Sasha and I talked about that together we decided nights probably best that giant going to Bethel for stuff we decided that we been describing that is that that we decided that we stay in regular Piney where Syed waiting we had we had a branch committee member Mary us and we had nine full-time students and it was was what we could form it was a simple wedding that it was what we could manage I think I think that each one of our attendees would be very surprised and somewhat dismayed to say we Sasha my heart right now but yes the 18 months of the marriage we managed to regular Piney but it was really really hot was it was tough when Sasha left Bethel he didn’t have many skills and he’s built because had pretty much gone from completing schooling I think maybe Annie did one year of pioneering maybe a little bit more before he went straight into Bethel said he didn’t have a trade to draw Ronald for back on so why humans window cleaning lack of regular fire is to say a humans window cleaning and I was doing three days week office work for an occupational health company still trying to do 90 hours a month it was hard I remember being so tired all the time just constantly drained it was it was really challenging and after about a month’s I think session owed by the point that there now but we’ll both struggling to make ends meet financially the window cleaning wasn’t always reliable very weather dependent so soon as it’s wet is no Windows getting cleaned which means this money coming in April it was just was really tough side we made the decision that we would have to stop pioneering because it was just will it was too difficult we were struggling too much and it wasn’t any assistance from anyone so what about Jehovah how well you know we prayed long and hard and was forthcoming yeah I haven’t do a lot of people I was there too and I pioneered you side that you do get that right you go yeah just just wait until I trust on Jehovah God Jehovah Bama bill that’s right details of feeding you nothings happening right with to make this happen somehow say it was it was tough so and that I found really hard stop pioneering after 10 years it was it was such a blow to my identity and so I was yes it was crushing to stop and the corrugation didn’t necessarily help because I also noticed that when you stop your no longer viewed the same way shall we say you you kind of put on it little bit of the pedestal when you pioneering you looked up to in the corrugation you stop and your status drops and drops below the others yes in the average publisher now sees you is lower you couldn’t cut it yet and there must something wrong with you there must be some reason and the yeah it can be a pretty rough time yet they you really yes you are none of the other publishers are paying for your food either night right say session I ate down the best that we cordon we wait time to get the best that we could manage but things started to change for us probably 2012 is a lot that happens when you know that you’ve been married a year or two less than them only has an eye on it back and I’m still trying toconduct a bit of an autopsy on the destruction of my faith and so to see the little landmark since way things happened and they were a number of them in 2004 session I had endured something that indicate that I like going to the detail of but what we had gone through I expected the elders today that hiding place from the storm makes went not only were purchased anywhere to be seen and it absolutely crushed me that he we wear in a situation that they knew about and they went offering any support whatsoever and that was one of the first I think the products into my faith because had to work out okay why my doing this when I came to a little IK I’m not he for Maine I’m here for Jehovah that you start reasoning things away you start T to tell use of things like that but then most things happen more incidences of head chip away and eight and it does little foundations try to support it back up with a start crumbling as well so it gets to 2012 2013 by this time I have given up on having a ministry just making ends meet is hot enough and just session I focusing on our marriage is enough getting to meetings that’s enough I’m not going to push myself to do more than that and if people don’t like it too bad it becomes my attitude and it gets supplemented by some the right word but I space supported by the fact that I’m now working full-time and on waking at a cancer practice and I feel I’m doing good work on helping people and that I suppose gave me what I felt I was missing from pioneering because when I was pioneering I felt like I was helping people and now I felt like I was helping people again and so is my meeting attendance was not scratch all my ministry wasn’t as good as what it used to be I wasn’t perturbed by that because I found satisfaction and joy in the work that I was doing and that in 2012 was when I agreed to do a university course to to use to help my position at work so that I was more educated to do the GD said that I was expected to but of course this will not university education is not to be done and I’d spoken Sasha bad at first we great together that IK on Adidas course Sasha was concerned that I’d still be able to meet my responsibilities to meeting attendance and field service on the weekends I Shorty my court week we hired a young weakness in the corrugation to help me with bookkeeping say that I would have time to focus on my studies but also still have time to focus on the credit activity and we kept it quiet that I was doing this course when I first started it Sasha wasn’t really interested in the course at all and I consult on and thought will I want to do it I need to do it I enjoy my job to get this done at either the next GE Sasha’s attitude towards it changed and quite drastically by 2013 he started showing interest in what I was learning and started to ask me questions and at the same time assesses interest changes my meeting attendance drops off more because what try to pull off was virtually impossible to try to I’m trying to pull off working full-time during university course and being a Jehovah’s Witness and a housewife and life that many irons in the fire the AAA results and what was what was crumbling faced and because I wasn’t really wasn’t interested in giving it the same attention anymore with my faith but I realized is what had to happen in order for me to say be able to open my eyes and realize the truth about the tree it was not going to happen with me at their level I was at four I would not even look at you have to have a little distance that’s why they want you even when you go on vacation or something to you take your meeting closed take your books find a kingdom hall and where are you going on vacation and they want you to do that because they know that if you break the chain and you get a little space from it your gonna start your brain can finally start processing everything that’s being drilled into your head and you’ll start looking at it with fresh eyes and a they know it can’t withstand that so they have to keep you tethered to it as much as possible so that you will stay in business control is just absolute control and in every aspect of your life so so now you’ve gotten yourself a little space little window of opportunity that’s right so how did that how did that impact your faith you having that little space there that allow you to start processing things are thinking about things differently it needs but have to say again it was in the session that was helping me more than anything else I had that bit of breathing space tonight I began to be quite troubled about 90 days and my mother-in-law who are bus witnesses and I was spending more time with them and recognizing that the good people and it began to bother me that I would be destroyed at Armageddon but again I was putting Band-Aids over so I audited the mantra I told myself at that point was no 92-will judge them I could not say they’re not going to survive that’s not Michael I trust that you will look after them and that’s as far as I can take it at that point couldn’t question past that but it was it was irritating there was something else that happened a major thing that happened in the corrugation with the family that we knew quite well and it involves one of the children and the way we saw the corrugation respond to that was absolutely appalling that disturbed by Sasha and I enormously and although it was discouraged we continued to still support that family and say that family even though they faith been completely destroyed by what happened we remained friends with them and we do to the state safety with the things that was starting to okay and there are things that we could not excuse we couldn’t just we still keep going to meetings with this thesis has everyone who has made it out knows this is not a knife and I processed these takes ye’s to break down before you can do takes years to break you down to get you in box that’s easier faster process because you’ve already got the baggage the trauma whatever it is but if you’re a kid growing up in that it still takes years to indoctrinate you as a child and is not an overnight process to get out of it and a lot of people think you know was that one thing that got you out as my usually one thing a lot of times and sometimes it can be one very dramatic huge event for a lot of us it’s just a little cut here little cut there and and eventually your for the culmination of things is one of those major culminating things was on particular concerning my husband with what happened Sasha he was a very dedicated ministerial seven and very conscientious and diligent about his duties was always the first at the whole I and while my meeting attendance had claimed he would still go anyway and he never put pressure on me and that I just can’t tell you how much I appreciated that having had so much pressure on my life to have him say in on a Tuesday night when I’m busy at work things, patient I don’t how many get back to the meeting on get back time in order to get the meeting on time and he does get very you doing the best you can that’s fine I’ll see you afterwards he he made it possible he created an environment for me to be me without judgment he just accepted it that he would always tell me on you it was going to put him in an awkward position when he got to the whole he tell me how he handled that at first it was difficult for him because he get you are sure he thought he should not well that assumption because I missed the meeting because you left legs for an awful something is going on this catastrophic people are nosy and they want to write exactly site Sasha would tell me that that was being said that he worked out a way around that he flipped the script and he would say to them you know she’s she’s busy at work tonight I’m so proud of his she’s doing such a good job you should helping people with cancer where they can send that he changed the the negativity put it into a positive and it became to be a source of irritation to seem that he would get his questioning from the corrugation so I knew that was happening but we communicated really well together but yes my my meeting attendance was waiting Sasha was then starting to get criticized by the elders because I wasn’t doing as much Sasha but I was not the exemplary life can to get your wife in line right which worsened considerably when they found out that I was doing universal course in which which I put eBay feels very badly about these I night but she can bank in all innocence and all in his do you want to tell the story I can’t we invited had been this evening with friends and then we sat down on making pizzas the children is to make pages of a very nicely when Jordan is talking and laughing sitting in I was so excited because Sherry is going to receive the Bob emeritus Memorial award for the work she was doing and I said is a wonderful she can to get this award what he said file is talking and looking looking at Sherry and his university cost we could really Be a with a knife adding 10 minutes we left. And M and really how silly is it that you should do feel bad or that anyone would look on someone getting an award for doing something good in a negative light in oh yeah? Cited anybody you should have been excited and they should have been excited to they were good friends but that’s my homework I I say session and got reprimanded he was spoken to by the elders told he had to get his wife in line and I have to keep the meeting me doing university course and by then the cost is all done and dusted I finished it but yeah and the pressure began to build taking because one of the elders had tried to do the mentor thing pull Timothy King and was wanting to get him to be appointed in elder and had told him on a number of cases we can get today but Sasha was not interested at in that the slightest by this time he was fully awake he was just hanging in to work out how to take me away, so that’s why he was just sort of enduring situation but he was wanting the tension from the elders to be an elder and he I think was finding more and more difficult to see how callously they were dealing with ones in the corrugation and Helen inclined where we so once he was struggling he will also dealing with the same pressure we were dealing with to a finding it hard to get to meetings finding it hard to answer up finding it hard to get more than two hours on the report card and the elders would just have to ship out team and judgmental and looking at the useless they can’t get this on the knock you again and Sasha was kinda becoming an advocate and speaking up and send me you don’t know what’s going on in their lives what you going to see him and just genuinely ask how they are judging right here yet well ascertained that right side the stain the elders didn’t like that Sasha was questioning them the more pressure was building the elders were not liking this you could start to see in meeting pots or in answers that he would get in the watchtower and where the fuse yields in particular that Sasha just had to please hand up and you could see the bristle system plants were growing and it all rested in January 2015 with sick… Visit and cut a long story short basically see I hold him into the back room with another elder present and by this time Sasha was out of patience with the whole thing and his just look what you then push me into this meeting what she said that if he can ever make me what are you doing just get it done more quickly that was his attitude which did not go down very well with them and the end result was of course he was eight a Sasha step down and he was removed whatever he was no longer seven and the attitude change again to get the attitude change when you stop being regular piney and attitude change again became no longer being a servant is drastic you feel like you out on the ledge and now all of a sudden you’re not in the clique and you’re not invited to social events anymore and you either looked for things it’s the fast forward a few months to June 2015 and that’s when the cat well and truly came at the bank because the young witness we had working for us had Fossett to round on the work computer and had seen that Sasha was on a forum for ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses and that was it as soon as she saw it she went straight to the elders and told them and the elders had an emergency meeting the next morning and they told they didn’t call us that entellus anything how we found out was that Saturday afternoon following day the employee a employ a close up and said that she was calling to let us know that she can work with us anymore and we were perplexed we didn’t know why and she just said you know why to Sasha Sasha was didn’t know what to make of that I certainly didn’t know what to make of that and she got off the fine prima straight after said she had gotten hung up and left swill like what was Sasha try calling her back she wouldn’t respond eventually he got onto his father who was one of the elders and he enlightened us as to what had happened and it did the whole universal trauma to them of course he was doing that always so upset was so distressed you just Melissa told us that you’ve been looking at these websites and then Sasha had to tell me after he got upset fine coal he then had to tell me what the Zelda had said and I learned that my husband had been on apostate websites and I was horrified because even though I was weak spiritually that was huge that was just enormous is a huge amount because for most people yet and I was stunned now that’s part of the stories well because the day we found this out we were going into the city to spend time we a bed and a work colleague of mine will going to see the ice hockey and we had this fun coal on the way into that event sub of the time we got in such robust traumatized and united the is not hiding these this is not something you just double talk about it later next to Scott have good night it was no possibility is that so I went in to say on event in Donner and I had to again until the book something really big happened and we try to get our heads around it and it just spoilt the whole weekend the following day on the Sunday when Sasha and I returned back time after same hockey we had the most agonizing day to I had to find out and I was terrified to find out how far to disguise wanting to look on on websites but I need to understand how far he’s questioning weight and I’m trying asking and I could see at the same time while and asking him such as being open to my questions he’s wanting to be truthful but he’s just as terrified as to how I’m going to respond to his answers it was an excruciatingly painful day and Sasha was being as honest as he could with me he was he was just heartbroken he was devastated he was distraught and I was so distressed to see him like that because he’s such a strong confident man into the type of person you can always go to with problems and to listen to you and then help you work out a way to fix it right and to see him sell and sure was just got wrenching I deal with points where he was collapsed on the floor sobbing was just heartbreaking to say it was really tough but we managed to get through it together we go through that night we there was no we can attack each other at any point we just listen to one another and try to understand where we’re both coming from Monday proved to be really hard for me because I then had to go into the office and the same girl who had just resigned was also working at the practice and I had to face her and that was really hard because I wanted to say a few things that I couldn’t because to that to and then next weekend we go to the meeting on Tuesday night neither of us could but on the Sunday I thought I felt we should I think Sasha was just happy to go with whatever I felt we needed today’s site we went to the meeting and that was the last meeting we ever attended because the reaction from the corrugation was and how you’re supposed to put up with that kind of behavior they you could tell in every looking every glance in all the body language they knew what was going on the gossip mill had worked itself over time earlier this was GC this was sensational that I thought that a huge scandal yet and they were all over and he was just site you could feel it and then you had this elder that hung around from the moment we arrived until the meeting started then he went sat with his family and then he was back straight after he was like a police dog making sure that Sasha had no interaction with anybody else in the corrugation that same elder had tried calling me during the break at work trying to get information from me on Sasha which I do not feel comfortable with and I told Sasha about it seems I time it was just it was such a hard time after that diet session I kind of mutually agreed we didn’t like that and the weeks to start by reading guarded meetings Sundays Sasha conveniently made something else more enjoyable let’s go for a drive let’s let’s go again do some shopping he does have a root canal that would be a lot more comfortable you just anything else and time started to guide by and while as time started to go by the silence from the corrugation became louder and I started to think he it’s one thing you knew what was going on Sasha but no inspection may hear it all rights how important I am now what is you do I hadn’t done anything is true being a woman is a good thing and in the organization but Italy if there truly shepherds they should be concerned about their see who now they think is married to a wolf I mean they should they should have been all over you trying to help you out but like you said it feels like there were nowhere to be found in the typical night and I I knew that the only way to get any of their attention was to walking talking to people I would have to make this means there is not going to be anyone making this means to me I had to do it and I just thought not I’m not interested in doing I just had I’m not going to put up with that kind of behavior that’s just to get so we can get back to meetings out while that was the case I I can still honestly say that I still believed I was a huge difference between not going to meetings because craps happened and then realizing that the religion you’ve been raised in was a complete line shame that had happened to me yet and Sasha Blake’s cotton socks he let me discover that for myself thinking you that you’ve got to be in control of that you have to you’ve got to work through that yourself you can’t have someone else showing you you have to have the courage to do it yourself I didn’t have that courage so this is now 20 and 2015 meet the district regional convention comes along and session I had some little discussion about whether we detain we both went not really wanting to so we just didn’t and then the next big test was Mott at March 20 16th the memorial and we both discussed that to integrate and the weeks prior I had a few conflicting thoughts and feelings about it but again I just thought you didn’t want to go I’ll actually think of any more uncomfortable going than being uncomfortable not going so we didn’t go but I still believed it wasn’t until November 2016 30 November 2016 that it all just fell apart for me and that was when the findings report from the strain will commission that it was released on 28 November and I was down in Melbourne on the 30th for web conference just a one day thing is at the airport and melted after this conference and it was scraping early flights and then I was going to work straight afterwards but the flight was delayed by that now and so I texted Sasha distilling night flights delayed and he that it takes to guess how well you could rate the ISC report to pass the time and I take seam document that would just piecemeal and down he just replied something funny I can’t even what it the safest right I’m sitting that I’ve got an outline now of time my letter and I just have a look at it solidified my Google lease train will commission in put tribes weaknesses and set in and I started reading and it literally was like time stood still everything just stood still it was and was just incredible I was in a crowded terminal and I felt my heart raced right out of me it was to watched it was just a shocking rating reading the testimonies of PCP and DCJ I was horrified absolutely horrified that the manner in which they wrote the report it was so clinical it was so emotionally detached it was it was legalese it was just presenting fat which made it so credible it was just undeniable what happened and as I read every word I knew what I was reading was true that have a testimony in there as well from the brother and so was the whole thing it was the hall was 110 pages and had everything I it wasn’t a transcript it wasn’t the transcript a look at what it was was the fight the conclusion the conclusions of of of what they had found cheering case study 29 so it didn’t go into all listed graphic detail when into enough yeah yeah but it summarized all of the findings and it went through what the recommendations were the end what they conclusions where the course the gross negligence of the organization the failure to understand what child takes a BCs date ignorance and arrogance everything was that it was worded brilliantly at just I could not stop reading it I sat there in that crowded terminal this find is stuck in my head I could not thinking I couldn’t stop reading and I remember finally the boarding call came for the flight and I waited till just about the last passenger I still had this finding front of me I read it as I boarded the plane I read it to take off through the flight through landing I read it why stood at the baggage terminal waiting for my bag I read it when I got the taxi to work and by the time to work I was in so much turmoil I did actually helical through the work day and I got Sasha and he didn’t know I’d break the purple until I got time and when I got hired I to say to them it’s not the truth it’s not the truth cannot they it’s just not and he just he was also support I needed and I’m so lucky I realize how lucky I am because so many witnesses that wake up tight habitat yeah that’s a terrifying position to be in to be that want to pay bio cells coming to that knowledge to I cannot I can’t fathom what I was just so lucky to have the support that I did he was just tremendous but even he didn’t us and he realizes not to treat an entity everything he still withheld knowledge he still was patient with me and said he let me just go through all of the horror that I needed to that weekend I watched all of the videos that the ISC back to back so Jeff rejection Jackson’s hideous attempt to testimony and what what brought it home to me even more was you these people I knew that Jackson had met Terry O’Brien I had met Robbie speaks admit until several times I knew a lot of these people who are giving up cooling testimonies Doug Jackson I knew really well because way back when Austin Scott Bryce that young little piney he was the first second FC hand his wife had spent three years the three years that I was in Scott back and we were close and he said those despicable things that testimony he write that letter when he said that Bill Neil could be re-appointed as an elder want to do don’t die down the depth of my heart I could not articulate it was just hideous and then I realized that I’d met Bill Neil and that I need the family and the I had probably met at some point I bumped into base AB which just made it even more horrific it just dumb changed my life reading that report you alluded earlier to a situation that you are aware of any variation where you are Sasha supported the family and was there it sounds like you just what you you have talked about that a little bit off Michael was the fact that you knew that situation and now you’re watching the a the Australian Royal commission on child abuse and you’re seeing way it wasn’t just that family and it wasn’t just that one time in a congregation of some sort of anomaly now you’re saying this systematically this is been a thing and that the people that are entrusted at the top it all the the people who are working at the branch in such a giving such garbage answers and skirting the questions I would have to imagine that it was your being able to call back to that time and that family was that something that really helped you to see you again not absolutely it was definitely link out with that when we got to know that family quite intimately and still do guess we were putting all the dots together and it wasn’t that family you when you was another case as well – yes we we where saying Pandora’s box I’ve been here and realizing the horror of the situation and for me I think these issues child sex abuse issue was always going to be the trigger because I can remember when I first started pioneering this was 91 is just when they lead was being lifted off the Catholic Church and the horror of what we had been of priestess being moved from one parish to another city they could and everyone’s horrified public and was horrified that for a 16-year-old piney and going from door to door speaking to people who had said not lost my faith I used to be Catholic I can’t stand religion anymore because of these and I had to come back because hey I can’t blame you for that but I’d walk away from that door and think Satan you horrible person you turn these people away from Jehovah and I also turned from the still stinking that will never happen with Jehovah’s Witnesses because we have the truth citizens of the trial that I felt and that I can’t even begin to scratch the surface of the trial that actual survivors don’t write I feel enormously fitting I just my heart comes out to them that they had to interview such atrocities to not be believed test I I take it as a source of pride now that that is the line that I can know I’d a.k.a. Howard with my life before what pride I took in being witness you don’t get to excuse that you just start you’ve got a look at the that kind of ugliness in the face because those victims the symbolizes need to be heard and they need to be understood and they need to know that it’s not acceptable and so my collected enemies it’s not acceptable and I want to accept it and I believe religion are direct I don’t care what costs are you can show me you can do whatever you want to me you can call me names you can say lies about me I don’t care what you do to me that the sake of those victims and the survivors I leave whatever eddies so in the organization Jehovah’s Witnesses they like to talk about how essentially it’s been so long since I’ve read the Scriptures but so essentially if you don’t call out a person for their send in your sharer in there said yes and you have 8 million Jehovah’s Witnesses that know these things now and now maybe not every individual bots are they tacitly condoning this and supporting it by continuing to support the organization and by making excuses for the organization you know what we just didn’t know what it was what was like back then will you know what you claim to be God led him so why is God always behind why why what what in God warn you about this before instead of you know at all afterward now you after the world at large finds out that you on these sexual predators there’s so much more to them why is it that it takes the world at large to figure this out if you are led by God wanting God tell you why did God let all these kids be hearts at an end you know you can’t claim that you’ve got so God can prophesy of the fall of Babylon the great or he can have prophecies for all these things but he can’t protect children and and if you read in the Bible something that that really bothered me about this whole’s circulars situation and am though hold everything that happens to these kids if you look in the Scriptures there are commands and scriptures about beast reality there are you you shouldn’t commit beast reality you should know man should lie with man you shouldn’t have sex out of marriage but where is the Scripture that says that you can’t sexually abuse children there’s nothing in the Bible that protects the most vulnerable human beings on the planet it is never mentioned and it goes as far as to specifically mentioned animals and things like that just ridiculous things in the Mosaic law as far as where city can be spelled in the eyes of the horrible things but nothing about kids and ill so I think that these situations when they arrived it’s easy for Jehovah’s Witnesses to try to write it off as we didn’t know or make all these excuses but there condoning something that if they knew that her brother sister in the car radiation was doing such a thing or was cheating on their spouse or whatever and they didn’t speak up and tell the elders than they would be seen as blood guilty and their be seen as a share in the sin and yet they are all watching these kids be abused and no one is doing anything and they’re coming up with excuse after poor excuse and yet claiming to have the one and only truth to be the only true Christians on earth and that you don’t Jehovah God is supporting them and if he is in his hands pretty sure does not know he can’t really reach very far is because he’s a pretty powerless God so did did this so obviously this shook you regarding the organization did it shake you regarding your faith. That and God of the Bible or did it start you down the path of just wondering you know where that led as far as taking the beliefs apart upset the first gender break to come in to make it all toppled right later on I think that was his eighth November and December we were actually going up on a trip to Hamilton Island without a bed and it was it was it was actually quite the timing was perfect because I started to assess her a few more questions and he started to share with me in a way that I felt safe he showed me JW fax and he just left me with it to just rate it and I started to come across a few things on JW fax that really started to make a big impact already great article on misleading quotes and lies that one right I weld a few degrees because especially having piney it’s a long where I just relied on everything that came out of watchtower as being true and accurate and then I found out I have just been using clicks in a way to make it look like the point of trying to get across when you actually can pay the quite back to you find that it does not no intention of being applied the way the watchtower applied it at just and now lies that were put into material and the way pull write that article he just get back to that comparison is no interpretation of it it was night she wasn’t trying to build a case of United lying in it make any accusations just laid out the evidence and the evidence speaks for itself that that really me and I that either the months to come so she would to show me all maybe you might like to statically might like that article be left me to sort of find it out myself and I suppose I say in a week since I had the joy of waking it out for myself that’s not really the right word the horror of finding out myself and the things that rocked my world was of course the beak 106 I set up a file finding out that that was not that was not to date that Jerusalem was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar in fact one I had to go to New South Wales state library over and I drank some strong leaders in right as soon as he was was a great little experiment I was already clear in the index because you’re searching in the index for anything on success seven and right crickets, back in is nothing coming back please search for destruction of Jerusalem to the kidney thought and 587 keeps, the other was to be found nothing remarkable happened in 607 Bay CA lead line Jerusalem being destroyed it’s there’s nothing they just the 1914 in folds under that one everything was just falling potluck has saccades and at the same time is that because I was now turning either the stones at every little cherished beliefs that I’d had how could I not they’d have the courage to neither the big ones the Bible God Christ I had to look under diocese well and now I was looking at it from a different point of view I wasn’t looking at it as the belief of the police without question I was now looking at it as the skeptic as the well I’ve had some really big beliefs shaken and I’ve seen the not true so now proved to me that true and I couldn’t find evidence of those looking at the Bible as you just said why why are they not things to protect children and I began to realize that the Bible was written by mean with the best of knowledge that they had time there wasn’t anything divine about it because it was divine when I expect that I expect to poke to not condone slavery expected books that traits humans better particularly women and children that would be nice you and I I began to realize I started to listen to a different podcast because trying to eek you can get lost in this will wind when you start uncovering it becomes obsessive and like it doesn’t it doesn’t feel good inside because everything gets turned upside down and I was I was angry I was really angry I was upset I was distressed because I felt like and I had a not been like to I and I felt used and manipulated and I felt foolish because you did to live believe these things sincerely and and now who am I and what do I believe and yet but it takes a while to sort that out right go to work that out the soulful over again and what do I believe and what is my identity because if you’d asked me when I was 19 who was I surfacing I tell you is unwanted chives witnesses that was who I was that was my identity now that’s not me anymore so who am I and I felt like I literally had to go back to the drawing board pick up the pieces of the jingle puzzle again and try to rebuild it somehow that there’s a book by Eckert Tollway called a new earth and in it he talks about the ego and I remember the when we were reading it before we were actually out I remember in their talks about the ego identifies with certain things so the ego identifies with being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses but you one thing that we all have after we leave you were all trying to find ourselves right but there is a core self that was there before all these labels were put on it before all these expectations are these experiences were put on it there is us at the core and that has never changed other things of been added to it but we can still be this were still the same person at our base and that it has been something I’ve tried to remember because I’ve always been there you know it was just covered up with the layers of garbage that were piled on top of it once you clear all that away you’re still there and it’s a freer and lighter place to be when you don’t have all that stuff laid on top of you you’re not caring that around all the time and the but it just goes to show how ego driven something like being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses is it’s your identity it’s who you are it’s how you think it’s how you act and it’s all about appearances and things like that and all those things really have no substance when could you can strip all that away and you’re still there so you know what a waste to put all that on and the know it does it’s not fun to look back and see that you carried all that for all those years and years and you’re not alone we have talked about feeling prank as well as bikes I played a trick on you for decades incident it’s easy to reason away from it in the say while obviously I was up against something bigger than me or I was raised in an all that but emotionally you still have to deal with it and it takes a while for your emotions to catch up to your head and having that something that ever that’s the struggle everybody goes through when they leave is even once they start learning things intellectually trying to get your feelings to match up when they’ve been driven a certain way your whole life that’s the hard part you feel such a enormous sense of loss yes absolutely that because just as all of that crumbles away begin to realize that the other beliefs are true as well such as the resurrection height yes say you guys to every grieving process or perhaps perhaps more appropriately to say you grave for the first time yes because you want able to graze if you’d lost someone not in the way that had a human should be able to do an healthy way now because you have to show everybody else you have the hope right that’s right sorry yeah you you you grave either the resurrection height you grave of the ones you’ve lost you grave I thought I’m not going to live forever now I am not going has this utopia and you actually look at the utopia from different point of view and realize sexually this type you wasn’t actually a healthy thing anyways say you analyze all of that and then you realize hey on 42 and I’ve lost so much of my life in this religion I’ve lost so many opportunities and you’ve got to get your head around that as well and again as a salmon optimist style I was able to sort out set around and go okay all right you’ve lost some time but you still have a lot of time hitting to make as much difference as you can and to not longer be defined by that I did go and seek counseling because I just had so many emotions trying to deal with that I had about six sessions with hair and she asked me a question in the second session that I really grappled with she asked me to find something positive about the racist witness and at that time I was so full of anger I could not think of anything positive that she tried, subtly positive step will you and you where raised have a moral code and I would say right and that moral code teaches people hate transsexuals and to be prejudiced about anyone he’s not a Jehovah’s Witness and that they should die in Armageddon you that moral codes really healthy if sarcasm was a very useful and then she’d will you were a full-time volunteer helping other people yes you can only do that as volunteer work and when you look at his volunteer work that so that you can teach other people about your full selection you’re not allowed to do any useful kinds of volunteering because why would you invest yourself into a world that’s dying you not going to do that so I that is not a healthy thing a every time she made while the wicked added to me that 12 month to try to find something positive about being racist witness and I have to say that if I had not had the experience I wouldn’t be who I am today and I would be able to have the opportunity I hope you have the opportunity to help as many people as I can if I can help others be supported in concepts in a listening ear for them I don’t think I have the capacity to do that if I had not been raised in religion like that you mentioned earlier the word empathy is major and empathetic person in the eye thing that if you live a life where your kept away from problems you can’t see how other people have it but once you’ve had something like this happen you can see you can start to look at other people and say well everybody thought I was fine I wonder what’s behind the mask of this person will be we all were mass so you start seeing things deeper which and I completely agree that that is one thing here to deal with myself to be able to to develop that empathy I would say that that’s I’m glad you actually brought that up funny timing of them in a coaching program and the I was asked what is something that would be positive and I’ve had I have not been able to come up with anything and I do think that just going through’s unfortunately sometimes it takes going through something awful to help us to be able to see what other people might be going through to see that there might be more beneath the surface and the it’s really beautiful point that you made that I helped me to so that I helped Mike that I’m sure you’ll help a lot of lot of people with the minute I think that this is a really interesting to of labor have to I’m so pleased that Sherry session system will time in 40 we can have Christmas to get out this year I didn’t for the body by the time I got mine my interview and Sherry’s cousin is going to join us as well sell on through to the `that’s beautiful that’s beautiful love it just on that and you use it to you related to an earlier week I realize when we in this religion what we are costing our family a eights it has proactive and I close it together and now having my moms now working up as well last day 46 uses the business and you know she’s now celebrating her birthday that the fence we had Mother’s Day together for the first time this year not buying her Christmas presents and we getting to sharing these things that we never had to be full but the impact it has on a family that whenever witnesses had to sit on the sidelines and watch that’s what has been involved I don’t think we realize that when not the only victims here to the victimhood it’s is a domino effect yet so many people are impacted by not listening and I could neither into the doorstep of the kingdom hall and gain I was in town with my niece and she wanted to listen on the Sunday morning to what ecologists want to dolling to the meeting I see you and I probably don’t going on and assess patient got up and said if you rearrange the words of Santa it’s his sanction I absolutely blew my talk because to me I still believe in Santa Christmas had a wonderful time can pull anything off and I cannot listen to it again thank you very much yeah they they really like to be judgmental in the things they say and and they have no problem taking apart it’s funny they have no problems taking apart the beliefs or the joy or whatever of someone else that they days they sit in judgment of the entire world but don’t dare ever criticized them as its it’s the epitome of a narcissist that sits on on high and tells everybody else how horrible they are the second that you shine a mirror on valvular satellite on them all the sudden they’re being attacked and you’re a horrible person for attacking them and their poor persecuted them at and use you see it’s like the embodiments of that one quality in an entire organization how and not to see all could you I think what I would do that I wish may put it on YouTube are so so ultimately then what was the stand that you took are you did you disassociate I really wanted to disassociate of because I know that’s real and I went when I finished reading the ASA report I wanted to literally disassociate sure from the organization I did not want to be seen to condone it at all and I I wanted to have no affiliation with that organization at all at the time value family circumstances were different and and Sasha made some really good points respecting the data and he said died play the game they words that they use and it’s Dave rules you don’t have to play by them you are disassociated by the fact that you don’t go any more you don’t have to put in a letter to be honest I still struggle with that is a part of me that still wants to do that that wants it to be formal and legitimized that I want them to know the level of horror I feel and that I want nothing to do with them I hadn’t done it yet maybe time will change maybe off I made you still will at the time when I first thought about it I was so care of my father and he is he remains a devoted believing witness that he was quite sick I was the one living closest to him I had a jeering guardianship and power of attorney and took control of his doctors appointments etc. so I knew that if I disassociated I would be making that impossible to caffeine so I I didn’t do it at that stage things that have changed as far as my relationship with my father is concerned Elliott this year in September my husband and I had an interview with Lloyd Evans and just before that Kazaa can say what impact would be if that dad. It say in the weeks leading up my language started to change a bit with data started to he would make comments about I know one day come back he was hopeful that one day I would return he thought I was just disillusioned and discouraged because of what the organization had done his first child abuse was considered to Hydro fix it in time was he so sure yet that I started to say to him dad I’m not coming back you can’t know the things I know and come back it’s not possible you can’t un-see what I’ve researched and I’ve researched a lot and either those weeks we started to have a few more conversations and I i.e. delicately as gently as I could started to explain to dad where I stood that I no longer believe in the Bible and that I don’t believe there is a God and this was horrific things for him to he I know I understand that I had turned my and you are the next but I needed to be honest with him and I discussed it to my.want to I want to be deceitful to you I don’t want to be betraying myself in a way that gives you hype the recent hype on not returning that I’m still your daughter and I’m still happy to look after you he couldn’t do it he couldn’t do it he write me a card I actually just before the card happened we got the same on a Sunday I guess we bought him an iPad so that he could watched IW broadcasting and said a lot for him showing how to use it the iPad needed an update he had no ID had to do it it needed a Wi-Fi connection yada yada yada we sorted that out we brought it back to them on the Sunday and on that Sunday dad asked to some questions he wanted to understand a bit more where I stood and he wanted to know we Sasha stood the conversation went well it was hard for he and he act up a few things that should listen to the points where he loosely had cognitive dissonance you it just wasn’t adding up to him he was finding it very hard Sasha are quite gentle and how he explained team except is funny what the trick is a when he asked about the flood and he asked us if we believe that it happened and Sasha said nine there is evidence actually got really upset can’t handle that he could not handle that we did not believe in the flood while I one of the easiest things to destroy that you know what he used his next play ice caps ice caps aware of the watery’s from the flat batch evidence that it was a flat side I look anyway another worthy of you can find one thing that you could conceivably somehow set them into proof than that’s all you need to is all you need even though I’m have been proven that all the water on earth including the others have come when I cover the dance and uneducated me I’m not saying you stupid is not stupid he tries and he needs his beliefs exec and that’s that’s actually the court that he needs to believe that what added to the conversation that day was the much touted big studies on Sunday and it was about a card with the title of it now but it was basically that loyalty to Jehovah and there was a paragraph that he handed me two great basically the paragraph was on what type of associates you choose as a Associates that help you to build your relationship with Jehovah and if they’re not associates that do that should she be spending time with them hey use that paragraph and said to me I have to consider my relationship with you and Sasha said to him he made it very clear to he said if you cut Sherry off all their support stops because I want say Sherry abused and that’s it I know I know that would happen he says I just need to give it some thought so we left that day knowing himself into a corner with that kind of reasoning watchtower puts out I couldn’t say how he could perform the mental gymnastics to somehow keep a relationship with his now atheist daughter and the wake had passed before I received a card from him saying he would have to cut the relationship with me because he felt that having a relationship with his daughter would be an act of disloyalty to Jehovah be the end of course what the weather conflating is Jehovah with the organization right unit so because the honest truth is you you’re an atheist but if you weren’t an atheist and you still believed in God even call them Jehovah everywhere one of Jehovah’s Witnesses the answer still the same really has nothing to do with believe in and even in God its belief in that specific organization and that’s it you keep the iPad of course yes well believe me we did hot when they first got the card we were kind of that they were taking everything back into an emotive response for sure and I and I understand that but it’s a pretty big betrayal on his part even though you can excuse the way with the the reasoning behind why he would be that way but emotionally it still feels like a pretty big betrayal so you’re going to react that way so we went sulking the week after I had worked out what I needed to do full the legal side of things because as their detainee and the Guardian I can’t change the documents that has to come from he legally I went sought legal advice to find out what if anything I could do and the Lord did not he has to change that he no longer wants you as power of attorney and injuring Guardian he’s can change that and because I was the one made of stockings happen in the first place I knew what the likelihood was of human I can see what can happen here if I don’t do something illegal happened to land up in hospital and I’ll still be dragged into it to sign I then asked the label if I write letters to each of the entities and explained that his wishes changed and I asked them to remove my contact details until such time as he gives you instructions with that be appropriate and he said yes so that’s what I did I took a day off work and I took before I was to do the right of these letters and I wrote one letter to dad outlining everything I had done and basically giving him a handover of way everything was up to where his appointments were up to where he stills were up to where the legal matters were up to the ones that I couldn’t change instructions with that he needs to follow up on I explained everything you’re nicer than me that I may decide that you and III wanted to conduct myself in a way that I could headband and say you’ll do nasty apostate just yet the stereotypical nasty Peter I wanted to conduct myself in a way that was still honorable know and I I understand that but they’re gonna say that anyway.you had an interesting twist really yes because the day before we were going to make humanized ISS to do: I thought I’m not contacting now you see semi-a card like that so I Sasha can you: telling will come Friday afternoon at 2 o’clock and and denigrates it was fine that he call back a few hours later and say can we make it three and Sasha called me and told me know and they’ll be no debate know it will be an elder that there is no reason seem to change the time we doubt that happening and sure enough there was an elderly but it actually backfired on dad because the elder that dad asked to come also happen to be dense landlord so I’ve had a bit to do with team in discharging my responsibilities as power of attorney and anyway when I turned up and I saw… I didn’t know you basically he was horrified he said the father tell you baby did not he said I told him to call you until you set actually feel teaming on the story as to why he was actually day Don didn’t know what he was about to say so anyway I was Sasha I would be able to dad and on and on I said to dad will of God everything ready for you with where had to get this done and that’s it all I know I’ve been getting calls all morning I had realized this as I get all these letters and I sent them that morning he was getting phone calls from each of the doctors in each of the institutions to say we’ve just been advised that Sherry’s no longer to be your contact is that correct said he knew I was taking seriously I was not just Canadian I keep doing things for him this was happening so he wasn’t exactly thrilled don’t just watch TJ 15 you what his role was things got heated very quickly because dad started today get very upset with me Sasha was a can have a bar that why would he be upset he asked for this night that he is the God of well yeah entities he said Sherry can make it really how to me and I said I I know it will I know it will design a how much work is been involved in supporting you but I’m honoring your wishes your card made it very clear that you no longer want to have anything to do with me so I’m just doing what you’ve asked for it didn’t have to go this way it it got it got really really ugly really ugly to the point of dad ordering stuff around the house and interestingly when Sasha took his leave the elder didn’t fire the he wanted to get out of there I think is quickly left me behind with dad and and I was able to say things that’s as a daughter I needed to say I started this interview by saying that the pain couples as a child and it wasn’t the easiest childhood and I I think I’m very happy with how I conducted myself in a final meeting with dad whether I had to get straight to me get on a tight night that I hold my head high and you I did me to and when he got really gnarly towards the end and he made it sound like he was the mosque and it was happening here he was you know that you said you got a new the Bible and I stopped him and I said no you don’t get to do that you don’t get to put words in my mouth I have never said those words never said that please don’t misrepresent me and then like a vision on you how things would get a guy I said to him and know it can happen from this point on you can step in the back you going to make me sound like the worst person ever even a hate me out to be the villain and he was shocked he said why do you say that lasted 43 years of knowing you I’ve seen you do it to so many others you gonna talk to me to he was incensed he said getting an asset to my case that’s final guy I just have one final thing to say I know what buttons to push Eisai watched him I just said to them Gary have a nice life and because I said Gary I used his first name that was like a well that just blew him up you and given the proper respect as a writer yeah on the of the authoritarian right he blew up had day you call me by your first name and I said to my final words said you don’t deserve the intimacy of father and I walked out the door and now my final words good for you I felt it was a frankly my dear I cannot give a damn minute yeah how is my go that was my moment but interestingly when I look outside the elder was still there was Sasha and the elder was just completely perplexed but he’s not what you know that had been written while he had it they showed he read and he said well this night misinterpreting that he’s made it very clearly and in the elder said something that was dislike you’ve got to be kidding me he said I don’t understand why you found this cutting you off it’s fine if you have family weaknesses we’ve got to disfellowshipped family and our family that we still say and I’m thinking about you keep that one quiet you don’t bring that up in the meetings now Miro that how he I was really quite shocked to hear what he did tell me this elder was not seeing since the bad guys he was actually quite supportive which shocked me is also worried about the rent to you not wrong I would yeah yeah the sound like your dad can have his back together most likely I know he pointing somebody else do you so so are so clearly you’re out now do you know if there is a narrative among those that knew you as to why you left do you know if there’s anything that I I know I’m not painted with the same brush Sasha I think I’m saying is collateral damage I was all been blamed on how you not long after the interview with Lloyd I worked up the carnage somehow to walk up to the cot in a local area that was there with two sisters and a brother day and on using the trades them and when Sasha purchased the car he gets completely shunned totally ostracize like I try not to engage with you at all so I wanted to see what the response would be for me and I will cut that first one is she could get a double take sort of recognized meeting all old and they didn’t know what to do to hello to talk to a duet what to do the other sister was an elder’s wife and she just came straight up hi Sherry how are you with me saying you and I acknowledge take nice to see Jill and when she still we miss seeing you at the meetings I said to hell thank you for saying that’s nice to hear you wouldn’t know it by as it’s been three years and not one person has knocked on my door to find me to ask how I am I just looked at her and to get it I know it’s going on I know it’s been said I understand anyway I didn’t say 12 is going when Connie get some coffee would you like some coffee nine I that will find I’m shaking like a leaf on do it it wasn’t easy to walk up to them so nervous and I was also really dismayed at my reaction is being so upset that he went went got coffee comes of Dan came back around to pass the beginning and she again made a comment about we miss seeing you at the meetings and would love to have you back and I said to Jill I went into becoming that might be happening on much better off now I’m really happy I’m doing well if I had my time is it was a comment I should’ve made you we wasting to hindsight because her husband is an elder and he was the and he made not one effort to come either to me so it all is this we miss you we miss you but I would love to have said was if you really miss me why is your husband ill today he was the one he’s in a position to provide assistance and support not even acknowledging the fact that I’m standing he it would seem to date that this missing his whole life you but I just want to tell me that’s best answer your question is that I can still be spoken to you somehow so I don’t think they know not yet how far it’s gone for me so what would if you had something you could say to those people if you say anything that you wanted to the people that maybe let’s say don’t shun you yet but may eventually or may eventually be put in the position where you have to or whatever what would you say to them I wouldn’t think of ambush of the just you knew who I was what type of witness which you have described me as how would you describe me what you think could possibly happen that would change that once you think about it thinking that you need me to know that this is not just a passing fancy this is based on evidence this is based on fact and IAG to look at it to and if you need someone to support you through it all baby I’ll be there to help you that look at me look at my life look he knew me today and realized it had to be something of significance to make me want nothing to do with now and that funny the contrast between that is a wonderful point and it makes me think of the like they had a brochure and satellite return to Jehovah or something and in it they give the reasons people leave the reasons they want people to believe that people leave 8010 miss something as simple as I get all hurt feelings in the congregation discouragement or something like that you think these people who have devoted their entire life to a thing to leave just because some brother sister look at them sideways making them all has nothing to do with that it got to be a huge deal I have asked if I think you discouragement a price we all had fun we kept going and we kept telling say it’s not right right so I think that’s a wonderful thing to leave them with so now you have a new life I ask you first what you like about the new life that you currently have a way to.it’s wonderful it’s it’s really really wonderful and it’s exciting it’s some I’m learning new things I feel like a sponge later again psyching things out I’m trying to break free from what I was as a piney particularly I was judgmental and arrogant and dogmatic I knew the traits I have absolute in those opinions now I try very hard to the opposite I don’t want to beat up medical yes I Come to some conclusions but I’m trying to be flexible if that’s the right word with that sci-fi can use an example let’s talk that one of the big ones got right now for me to believe that me to believe extraordinary claim he needs to be extraordinary evidence I don’t say that extraordinary evidence is that extraordinary evidence comes about then I will be happy to reevaluate my opinions and my thoughts on that in but for me right now I don’t say and so that’s why I’m trying not to be dogmatic and say anything in an absolute safe sure sure I can’t say there is no God obviously things change in life yet yes things to change but right now that’s where I sit I am hungry about learning more and I’m hungry about pushing my brain to understand more so I’m reading a lot listening a lot and listening to podcasts and I find so exciting learning new things and just exploring what I once knew because I should learning about evolution and understandable trying to understand think I do understand all of it I’m trying to learn I’m so excited that that’s just fantastic getting to meet new people learning to create relationships with other people without judging them with just hearing them and seeing them for who they are I find that so incredibly exciting and more rewarding than any of the relationships I’ve had before I’m so excited about that I think that’s wonderful it’s brought a new dynamic to my life that I didn’t realize I didn’t have I’m enjoying work more the relationship that Sasha has now is on a completely different level we see ourselves each other as equals we discussed things we have great conversations now and when not mirror copies of each other we had we can have different points of view on subjects and it’s not an argument it’s not I know you must believe these it’s an interesting point of view why do you think that the IK only baby things about it’s just I’m really excited about where I am on this wonderful trading in the US with my fantastic were having a bull of the time meeting always wonderful people is much to be excited about so I’m I’ve used that would how many times now I’m really I’m loving life and loving life I know Annie has a short time on this S and I am okay with that and I don’t know why way he I think it needs to be an answer to why we he just baby and enjoy it and make the most of it makes and make the biggest impact you can on other human beings to make their lives better so speaking to that are there any dreams you have for your new life anything that you want to do any bucket list items or is there anything that your and is there anything that you want to is there an impact that you may want to make is there is what are your dreams for the new life going forward well I think on this trip on the in a few bucket items off Neil Huxley Niagara Falls that you guys that was on the bucket list but I podcast it at least I just been having a fantastic time opening up doors that fantastic what do I want to do this a lot I think I can do I’m not sure where that’s been a guy for me to everybody has a clear sense of the and it’s very hard to think for us coming out to have a clear sense of what we dream to be because we were never allowed the dream that’s the but I think that if you just put yourself out there and start doing new things the new opportunities arise and those might spark some dreams thing else over time do one thing I want to damaged enough kind of mentioned it already is I want to be up to help others I just don’t know what form that’s going to take I do want to become more than activists I do want to shout from the rooftops that what watchtower does is wrong and it needs to change I’m not an activist today want to shut them all down because I think that that is imposing on the human rights of others if they want to believe all is that that’s the choice they free to believe what they want the way those beliefs and impose on other people’s human rights that is wrong and that needs to change what my role is in that yet I don’t know but I do know of one had a part of it so justI’mkeepingmyoptionsopenandI’mjustlookingforwaysthatIcanbeavoicesomewayIjustdon’tknowwhatformatscantakeitthat’sbeautifulandIthinkthatweshouldsendthisoutbyaskingBeverlyaquestionsoBeverlywhatisitthat’sourhowdoyoufeelaboutSherryleavingthecallsandSashahowdoyoufeelaboutthembeingoutofthecallandwhatyouhopeforthemyouaregoingforwardasfarasI’mconcernednowtheleadingleavingalotthatshouldbegettingallthetimeIgetintoalotofdramatraumathattheycomingoutverynicelyortheyarewakingwakingwakingupwakingupandI’msohappyanyplaceanddownI’msuremymotherwouldhavebeenmorethanhappyandalsomyhusbandhadbeenthrilledbecauseonedayatworktellingwhatisfunnystorytofinishonsitemyunclewasaveryintelligentmanreallyintendintelligentasanengineerverycreativecoulddesignthingshewasanatheistnotonethatyoucouldreallytalkaboutreligioustopicswehadnotimeforreligionatallbuthewasrespectfulsorryitwasoneparticulardayIwaslookingverypale&womenonceamonthcanbeinclinedtolookatandthisdidn’tgounnoticedbyuncleRayhetookonelookatmeaningwhenSherrylookverypaleyouneedabloodtransfusionandthenchestisthewayit’sgoingtoMatthewrealizewhathesaidandtowhomhehadsaiditandthislookofhorrorwentovertheeffectsandheranoutofthatroomhadthoughtsthatIthinkthatifIwastoseehimnowandtellhimheyuncleRayIgotnoproblemwithabloodtransfusionnowisnoissuewithsavingmylifebyamedicalprocedureifthedoctorsdeemitnecessaryIwouldlovetohavebeeneverhadthatconversationwithhimandmanyothersaboutcreationandevolutionhewastherehewasawonderfulmanIthat’sabeautifulwaythentheauditonthatnoteandappreciatetogetherenoughyou’rewelcomeIwanttothankbothSherryandBeverlyforbeingsoopenabouttheirlivesandallthattheywentthroughyouknowit’sit’sreallyinterestingtoforgettohaveBeverlypresentfortheinterviewbecauseyouaswetalkedaboutthiswholecoltexperiencesreachesfarbeyondjustthoseofuswhoweredirectlyexposedtoitallyouknowwehadpeoplethatcaredaboutusthathadtositbackandwatchallthisgodownandtheywereimpactedtosomywifeJennyandIwehadsuchagreattimewiththosetwoitwasjustanawesomeexperiencetoactuallyjusttohavethemagreetotaketimeoutofthisamazingtripthattheywereontovisitustheothergoingtoplaceslikeNewYorkCityandNiagaraFallsandbeautifulskislopesinColoradoandSanFranciscotoHawaiiandthentheystoppedintheLouisvilleKentuckyareatoseesooneofthesethingsisnotliketheothersthoseisreallycoolthattheytheymaytimesatthecomeseeusandthenweactuallygottodothisinterviewandjustasanasideyoujustsayingforsomeofyouslackerssaythatyouwanttobeinterviewbutIdon’tseeyoumakingthetriphereenoughyouwanttogetonandwanttogetfast-trackflyingthousandsofmilestomydoormightbeonewaytogetontheshowyouunderstandsoI’lljustkeepthatinmindifyouactuallyliketosendamessageofsupporttoSherryorBeverlyareyouoneorbothofthemyoucandosobygoingtoSeanpodcast.comwhereyoucanleaveacommentforthemyoucanalsofindtheresourcesthatwerementionedintheepisodetherethevideoforthesongthatshechosetorepresentherjourneySherryactuallychosethesongbackdownbyBobMosestorepresentherjourneyofthesongtalksaboutmakingastandforabrighterfuturenevergoingbackandIthinkthat’ssomethingallofuscanfindourselvesrelatingtoonthesideofthecultthat’snottheonlyplacethatyoucancommentontheepisodewealsohaveaFacebookgroupcalledJeanpodcastwherewehavepeoplediscussingepisodesintheirownlivesandItrytodothingstoencouragememberstofindgoodthingsinlifeandthegrowthasIstatedearlierIwasgoingtogiveyousomehighlightsofthepastfewweeksandgiveyousomeideawhat’sgoingonintheireveryWednesdaywepostthingsthatwerehappyaboutinlifethisweekeveryweekandwepostthingsthatweredoingforourselvesaspartofself-caresomethingthatwewereneverreallytalkedtodoaswitnessesorinanyofthesecultsthatwedealwithhimatourfirstshowuntilSundaywherepeoplepostthepicturesandtalkedaboutsomeofthethingsthattheyhadthatwerecoolerthanmeantsomethingtothemyouknowbeingshunnedwedon’twillhavepeoplewithusanymorethatmaybeweusedtosharethatcoolgadgetwegotwithorthatsentimentalitemnumberyourmaterialthingswhilenotbeingmaterialisticmaterialthingsdohavemeaningtousandinthemalotoftimesthat’swhywewefindthesethingsthatrepresentsomethingaboutusandwithnoweusedtomaybesharethosethingswithourfamiliesandwecan’tanymoresoitalltakenoutalittletimethatyouhearandtherewillsharesomeofthosethingsinthegroupandkindofyougettoknoweachotherthroughthethismonthwe’vehadaleastonepersondisassociateleavethecultbehindandthatisawesomewealsocelebratedChristmastogetherandNewYear’ssothingsarehappeningintheirmygoalstokeepmoreaboutusasindividualsinourstoriesandsupportingeachotherpersonallythanjustyourkeepingupwiththelatestdateofstuffandsoIalsotoldyouthatIhadspecialaudiofromthegroupthatsharesomeeggwhensurethatnowoneofthemembershadawhatisdefinitelyatleastoneofthebestifnotthebestfirstChristmasstoryI’veeverheardyoupostedandinthegroupsoIhadhimuseanewfeaturemywebsitewhichI’lltellyouaboutgiveyouachancetouseaftertheaudiosothathecouldsellhisstoryinhisownvoicesohereyougothisisNico’sfirstChristmasmynameisNicoandIamcurrentlyshunnedasanextrahosewitnessandthisisthestoryofmyveryfirstChristmasIwasalittlebitreluctanttogotoaChristmaspartybutonceIrealizedthatthereluctancewasjustalittlebitofJehovah’sWitnessleftinmeIdecidedtojustgoforbarrenmindIhaven’tcelebratedChristmassinceIwasveryverymyfamilyspendthecallsinceIwasaboutsevensobasicallythisismyfirstChristmaswhenIgottothepartyeveryonegreetedmewithhugsandsaidhowhappytheywerethatIgottoshareChristmaswiththemandsomeofthemknewmypreviousreligiousbackgroundsotheywereevenmoreexcitedtoseemethepartywasjustamazingnothingflashyorover-the-topjustgoodfoodgooddrinksandevenbetterpeopletheicingonthecakewasaround5:30PMoneofthemothersofthechildrencameuptomeandaskedmeifIwouldliketobeSantaClaustopresentgiftstoallthelittlekidswhostillthinksthatIsraelkeepinmindinHawaiiwedon’treallyhaveaSantaClausmeetandgreetatthelocalmalllikeonthemainlandapparentlySanta’sreindeerdon’tfancysandandsunbutitwasanawesomefirstexperiencewhenIwasaloneIgotintomycostumeandnoonesawmethenallthekidssingasongtosomeincentivesotospeakasIwalkedinthedoorwithmybigfakejellybellyandmysackfullofpresenceandshakingjinglebellsthankgoodnessIhadafigbeerbecauseIwasjustsmilinglikeandoverjoyedforisarecenttomysackandcallthekidsnameIcouldseetheanticipationbuildingandtheotherkidswhowereeagertoheartheearningscallnextastheycametocollectthegiftstheysatwithmeandtookapicturewithSantaitwastrulyamazingthenextthingthathappenedreallycaughtmeoffguardandalmostreducedmetotearsandI’mnotaveryemotionalpersonatleastnotontheoutsideafterSantahadleftandIhadreturnedtheadultsstartedhandingoutpresenttoeachotherknowthisismyfamilyinfactIhavezerofamilymembersinHawaiiwithmesoIwasn’treallyexpectinganythingIjustthoughtI’dgotheremeetpeopleeatanddrinkandenjoythisholidayspiriteveryoneseemstobesofondofthenthegirloryoungwomanIshouldsaywhodressedupasentencehelpertohelpmewiththenamesofkidsIdidn’tknowcameuptomeandhandedmeawrappedpresentIdidn’tevenknowwhattosayIstruggletomusterupthewordsthankyouasthiswastotallyunexpectedtherewereonlyabout30peoplethereattheChristmaspartyandI’llknewBrianwhoinvitedmeinwhomIworkwithaswellashismomanddadasIsatbackandgatheredmyselfemotionallyIbegantoreflectonwhatwasactuallyhappeningthesetotalandcompletestrangersshowedsomuchloveandkindnesstoaguythatmorethan90%hadneverknownpriortoyesterdayIwasjusttotallydumbfoundedthattheseworldlypeopleIwastaughtweresobadshowedmemorelovethananyJehovah’sWitnessI’veevermetitwasthenthatIrealizedImadetherightcallbyleavingthecallbehindforgoodofcourseitstillhurtsthatIcouldn’tcelebratewithmyfleshlyfamilybutcelebratingwithmycoworkersfamilyandbyextensionallofyouIhavelearnedwhattrueloveandthejoyoftheHolySpiritistothankyouallforbeingawesomeandthankyouMikeforcreatingthisgroupwehaveasixplacetogrowandshareexperienceshopeyouallhadaMerryChristmasandevenbetteryearIjustwanttogiveashoutouttomycousinRhiannamyfriendReneeandmymomCoreywhohelpedmethroughthewholeawakeningprocessandJustinsupersupportiveandIknowwillbelisteningtothispodcastsospecialthanksthemandofcoursetoyouaswellforfeaturingthisonthepodcasttakecarethatstoryamazingtheirpeoplearetrulygoodnotallpeopleobviouslybutifyouputyourselfoutthereyoutoocanhavesomeamazingexperiencessohowisNicoabletotellthestorywhileIhaveanewFuturamawebsiteSeanpodcast.comwhereyoucanclickontherightsideofthepageIthinkanyofthepagesactuallyonthesiteandleavemeavoicemailthatIcanthendownloadanduseonthepodcasttherecordstraightforthemicrophoneonwhateverdeviceyou’reusingweatheredyourphoneyourlaptopcomputerwhateverwhereveryouhaveamicrophoneandyoucouldeventestitfirsttoseehowitsoundsmakesureitsoundsgoodsoI’mgoingtobeaskingsomequestionsinfutureepisodesthatmightproduceanswersthatarguesonthepodcastepisodesinfactIhaveaquestionrightnowwehaveanewyearuponus2019outI’dliketoknowwhatwouldyouliketoseeimproveinyourlifethisyeartheycouldbecaughtrelatedcultfalloutrelatedjustpersonalstuffwhateveryoucanletmeknowyournameifyouwantitusedorjusttellmewhatyou’restrugglingwiththemlifeandwhereyou’dliketoseeimprovementI’llcompilethemandmayusetheminanepisodetohelpothersseethattheyarealoneinsomeofthestruggleswe’veallbeenthroughalotwerealljustpeoplesoyourstruggleswillbefeltbyothersintheknowthatthey’renotalonesogotoSeanpodcast.comclickonthetimeofthetabontherightandletmeknowwhattroublesyou’rehavinggoingintonet2019awaredoyouneedhelpifyouhaven’tbeentothesitelatelyyoualsoseethatIevenhavesomeshunswaguptherenowIhavemergedthisbuddyformetobytheofyouIneverthoughtthatyou’rethebikeasagirllikethisandtheotherpeoplewanttosupportlikethisbutIsourcedsomeniceT-shirtsandaandahoodiewithashuntlogoonthemthatlookreallycoolIactuallywentaheadandandthetrialorderaboutthesethingsmyselfsothatIcouldtrythemwaytomakesurethoughtheyweregood-qualityandthattheylookprettycoolsoifyou’reinterestedthisisonewayofsupportingtheshowyougetaprettycoolcharterhoodieoutofitandIhaveideasforsomeotherthatallI’llputupwithasIgettimeyoucanalsofindthepodcastonYouTubeunderthechannelcallSeanpodcastonewordonisthegrandmashownpodcastonewordandontwittersomehowpodcastagainonewordifyou’dliketohearmystoryandgreatinsightintohowthecultofJehovah’sWitnessesworksyoucandosoatthepodcastcalledthisJWlifealsofoundthisJWlife.comnowwehadn’thadanynewpatriarchsupportersforafewmonthsbutthismustpeoplereallysteppeduptotheplateandIwanttobesuretothankthemallbynamefirstnamesonlyofcourseIdon’tknoweverybodysituationssoIwanttothankMariaBobbyJoeJosephEllenKathyandDianaforsteppinguptheisthemostsupportIreceivedinaone-monthspinsoyoumaybeofsomeofitwasbeforemylatestwebcastwhereIexplainedsomeofthebigthingsI’mworkingonfortheshowfromaFacebookgroupforthenonprofitthatIamatleasttalkingaboutstartingandLLandyouaredoingsomepreliminaryworkonandthecoachingandsupportgroupsthatIwanttostartsoyoumaybesomeofthatwasthatwasbeforeImadethatannouncementmaybesomeofitwasaftertheannouncementhaveinpeoplewereinspiredtocontributethenbutIjustreallywanttotakethetimetothankeverybodythatthatreallyhelpsmemaketheshowpossiblebysupportingitfinanciallyit’snotjusttheshowyoutheshowtakesalotofworkalotoftimetherecostsinvolvedingettingthingsdonebutalsoIspentagreatdealoftimehelpingpeoplethroughemailstomyFacebookgroupthereothersocialmediatargetpeoplewhoareaskingmequestionspeoplewhoknewmytimeandIenjoyhelpinghimbutatyourhavingthesupportallowsmetohelpevenmoreit’sallowedmetotakemoretimeandasyouknowfromthatvidcastI’veactuallyArtiesteppedsomestepbackfromsomycleaningworksothatIcanmakemoretimeforsomeofthesethingssoyoursupporthelpsmebeabletodothisandIcan’tthankyouenoughbecauseyou’renotonlyallowingmetohelpotherpeoplebutyourallowingmetodosomethingthatIlovethatthatI’mreallyenjoyingdoingaudiosummeditittakesformetoemotionallyandmentallyattimesbutintheendit’ssoencouragingtoseepeoplethatwanttosupportwhatI’mdoinghereandandtoseepeoplegethelpsoifyouwanttocontributeinthatwayyoucandoso@patriotic.com/shunned and the you for as little as a dollar a month it really is encouraging to me and helps me to do more of this another great way to support both the shunned podcast and this GW life if you’re so inclined it doesn’t cost a penny just head over to iTunes leave a five-star review that helps both podcast to get found in the search is on there so that more people can find it now next month I’m pretty excited about this one as well we’ve got a really cool story is a former member of Jehovah’s Witnesses name Silvers and just a really unique aspects of his story homeless at 13 married at 16 everything from the blood issue to physical and sexual abuse Silvers experienced the whole awful buffet of cult toxicity but he’s here to tell a story which is a huge step in and of itself it takes a a lot for somebody to do that I’m not to spoil it all here but this guy has been through so much and I even have a really really heartfelt and amazing update of sorts that I’ll share after the interview that this just really beautiful so I work in a Glenn close this episode out with the song know how yet but fair voyeur you can find a link to her song to the patriot on page to the show to resources that were mentioned in more not just on the website but if you’re listening on a podcast up you can probably get it all and out by looking at the description says we in all episodes love others do no harm and go be happy and

V Practiced Shunning In Her Racist Family Cult.mp3

[00:00:40] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we expose religions that use shunning as a tool to control people. We have a fascinating interview with someone that was raised in a racist family cult was very small cult just 14 people or so in actuality. But the teachings of the leader were found online and they attracted a lot of alt-right and neo-Nazi supporters that were drawn to it. This is a look into the literal lifecycle of a cult. You’re going to see how a cult begins. How this one in particular eventually came to an end. But how even the beliefs still linger which is the power of a cult. Those those beliefs are still there last month’s episode really shined a light on the narcissism present in Jehovah’s Witnesses. But this episode is going to show how one narcissist it only takes one one narcissist can impact so many people’s lives. And it shows how narcissism breeds narcissism among a group we’re not going to be using this guest’s name. She picked a letter to go by so we’ll call her V. I will also not be releasing the name of the cult or the Web site that was used. We live in a world right now that is more concerned with hunting people down based on what a person said years ago than they are looking at who a person is now. My guest has been impacted in this current climate where employment can be impacted simply based on affiliation with a thing at one point in a person’s life simply because they were raised in it. Or maybe that’s just the way they were raised or they didn’t know better or whatever. I think as the Bible says let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I’m not down with outrage culture and I’m not here to promote it or to cause problems for people. This person is being very brave and telling their story and they should be rewarded for it not penalized stick around after the interview and you’re going to hear how the podcast is doing what next month’s episode will be about. And I’m going to give you some highlights from the shun Podcast Facebook group and what’s going on there. So without further ado let’s meet Vy My name is V.

[00:02:54] I’m twenty six years old. I was born into a small family cult and I have shunned people I love all right.

[00:03:03] So then how did you come to be in the family courts in the first place.

[00:03:09] Well it goes back quite a ways. I was born into it. I’m the youngest SEC fifth. I’m sick of six kids and my mom and her sister. Were very close and my sister met the man who would eventually become the cult leader and they got married and he had always been an extremely polarizing person very narcissistic and set in his ways which was attractive to my aunt who lived with mental illness and anxiety and panic and his very strong can do everything I can fix everything. Attitude was comforting. I think to her and a few years before I was born my parents marriage really started unraveling and my mom’s long held fear and anxiety around religion and safety really kind of hit her pretty hard. And my uncle was promising that he had this new way of believing and he understood the gospel in the way no one else did and he could make sure her kids were saved and he knew all the ways. And looking back it’s pretty clear that none of those claims were things that he could follow through on. But for my mom who is in a marriage that wasn’t particularly easy and who had a lot of unprocessed trauma from her childhood. Those claims seem so comforting. And originally she accepted the blues through a little while. My dad did not. And then they were actually shunned by my uncle and my aunt for about two years over some money and other disputes. My uncle really enjoyed the power of cutting people out of his life and he used it often. But after that time my mom just felt so lost. She started going alone to the meetings and it was just just the three of them. But at that rapidly grew and when I was 4 my dad was excommunicated. There were a lot of reasons why he was excommunicated. All the men in my family were excommunicated and I think that that’s what the leader used to kind of control and also people who spoke up against him got kicked out. But after I was four that’s when the cult really started shutting down. We got kicked out of our last traditional church by my uncle standing up and calling up the pastor in a very awful looking back at it. He would literally stand up in sermons and tell the pastor he was wrong and he was preaching evil things and so obviously we didn’t make it through churches but as a 6 year old we moved away from the little country house that we had we had acreage where the pool was wonderful but it was just too much for my mom and really moving into town. Having my dad be no longer a part of our lives except for through court ordered visitation. Really started closing everything down especially because when my dad. Was excommunicated he sued my mom for custody of us kids and every single person that she knew sided with my dad because they knew my uncle and they knew how oppressive he was and they were worried about us. And so my mom lost all of her friends and her husband and her church and everything that I was outside of the cold and that was when we really like closed down for all of us and a pretty intense way.

[00:07:09] So when you say it closed down what does that mean.

[00:07:13] So that means we were taught like for example we had to go to visitation with my dad but we were taught we couldn’t say I love you to him trust him for anything he was evil.

[00:07:25] So you did not win custody then he did not win custody.

[00:07:29] No. My mom won custody and he won visitation rights every other weekend with the three youngest kids. Which was another complicated factor because the three oldest chose not to go with him. And that kind of caused a chasm in the family a little bit but it closed down in that like we were instead of going to church and then like maybe having a cult meeting we started having cult meetings on Sunday and Thursday. Our beliefs got more crazy and we were taught. It’s interesting because I grew up in a neighborhood with lots of kids. I was not isolated physically but spiritually and like emotionally we were taught that we are responsible for other people’s choices and we had to like there are all these rules around friendship and around trusting people. And we were taught that the quote unquote real Christian Church are like the mainstream Christian church was evil and was Calvinism was the biggest issue because we believed in conditional salvation. Anything with unconditional salvation meant they were evil. So when I say closed down I just mean that as a young person I was taught to not trust anyone except for the 14 people in the cult with me which as you can imagine is very isolating. Yeah.

[00:08:50] Good.

[00:08:51] No it’s OK.

[00:08:51] No no I just wanted to say this is this is really fascinating because what you have here is the nexus of the cult. It’s it’s it’s a look in to how it all starts and you’ve got Syria.

[00:09:08] And it’s it’s amazing how that kind of ruled by fear naturally or anxiety. You seem to find these people who are the total polar opposite who are narcissistic and who are completely sure of themselves in a way that they doubt nothing about themselves. Exactly. Yeah. And then you then you just see how the narcissist gains power because he unfortunately a lot of times it is a he seems to attract people who are scared and then what he does is he rules through fear. Fear is tool.

[00:09:52] It absolutely was and I had an interesting talk with my mom recently too who said looking back at her life she can see that she acted primarily due to fear for most of her life. And it makes sense she had a pretty unstable childhood and then this man comes into her life and she was faced with the option of either she follows him and listens to him or she loses her sister and her mother who were they were pretty inseparable. My aunt was very sick from very early on and my grandmother was very close to her because of that and because of my aunt’s mental illness. So my mom even before there was a proper cult she was faced she faced shunning and loss. And for someone who is scared and and needs direction it makes perfect sense why we ended up there.

[00:10:45] Oh I mean absolutely. And you know one of the things I’ve noticed. Well first of all you know you have the power of shunning that was even there.

[00:10:55] You know right from the beginning because your mom immediately and then you have just the attraction of people who are hurt to the people that supposedly have all the sense. Yeah. Yeah exactly right.

[00:11:13] It’s it’s so sad because you know these are people who need help the most that you know I even in my own family from what I understand there may have been some trauma that attracted my parents in doing these interviews over and over again you find that there’s trauma somewhere in there that has made the mom or the dad vulnerable and have gone toward this thing. And then once you’re in it it’s so hard to ever get out of. It’s just a vortex that just kid is sucked in.

[00:11:44] Well I’m just really sorry for your mom that she you know had all the thing too was that she married a man who while I love him dearly he was raised. He’s the youngest of three and a very wealthy California family. He’s never had to work. He’s never had to really like fight for things. Yeah. And so when my mom joined the Colts he didn’t know how to fight for us and how to help us. And he knew we’re in a cult but he didn’t know what to do. And so when he got excommunicated it was obviously just completely devastating for him. But. As the person that he was I don’t think he was ever equipped to save us out of that kind of situation. And I know some of my siblings have felt really angry with him. And I’ve had moments of it for not doing more to save us but I don’t know what he could have done. He was completely excommunicated. We were all taught from. I mean my little brother was 2 when he got excommunicated. So we were taught almost from birth that he was evil and bad. And it’s just crazy how the personalities of people and the things in their past can really affect affect them for so long. We have such a long period of time. And the other thing too about my dad is that his parents were just blissfully married. They had a wonderful relationship and he went into marriage thinking that it would be like that. And it was not with my mom. They just were not. It was not a good fit from what I’ve heard. And obviously I was very little when they. Divorced. And so I don’t have a lot of clear memories of what their marriage was like. But from hearing from both of them there was just always is about imbalance that was just magnified when my mom went to the cult leader her brother in law and started listening to him exclusively.

[00:13:42] Oh I can only imagine how much that must have driven a wedge in there. I mean that’s Yeah. Yeah very strange. Yeah. And I feel I feel for your dad because you know I would assume he probably lives with a lot of regret. Yeah. And you know he was put he was simply just put in a position he was not equipped for. And then like you said you’re you’re taught from the time your to to think that he’s evil there. Yeah. There’s like even if he could have fought for you all. And even if he could have gotten custody he couldn’t necessarily change your mind.

[00:14:19] No he could have an end. It’s interesting looking back a lot of my siblings still have really complicated feelings about him. But within the last year I’ve been able to come back because we were out of contact for years and years after visitation ended. But I reached out to him and I was like I can only imagine what it would be like to have this family that you love. Six kids a wife and then all of a sudden they’re gone. And that was how it was for my dad is that he lost his whole family within a small period of time and it was partially due to his own mental illness. He went through a severe depressive episode had some suicidal ideation an attempt and he was cut out partly due to that and knowing that his own mental illness was was not only treated with disgust but it was also given a moral weight and that on its own is devastating. But then to realize you lose everything you love and this dream that he’s had since he was a tiny kid of having a loving marriage and like all of these things he lost so much and it I understand how he reacted the way that he did and why he kind of curled up in on himself as opposed to trying to keep fighting for us because it was a losing battle. I mean it really was. Yes I think she did the absolute best he could have done in the circumstances. And you know it’s just sucks it does it does it.

[00:15:49] You know it’s not something you’re you’re trained on how to deal with you know in any normal life and then you know it’s just so it is complicated because I can understand you know you’re also where your siblings have that complication because on one hand they’re hurt. Yeah they are.

[00:16:12] No unfortunately our emotions and our feelings and then are our mind our intellect don’t always sync up and so yeah it’s easy to feel hurt. On one hand but at the same time you can rationalize having compassion for this person because clearly he was just overwhelmed and overmatched. Yes. And you know he probably was doing the best that he could. But I mean it sounds like he had his own issues and we often forget that that adults have problems too.

[00:16:47] They absolutely do. And I think it’s been interesting for me getting back in touch with him and realizing that I mean his side of the story is so incredibly different from the site I was told.

[00:16:58] I mean I know that we were taught to think black and white. So it’s hard for me still to remember that like his perspective is his perspective. And that doesn’t make it wrong just because it doesn’t line up with my mom’s at all right.

[00:17:13] And that’s been really interesting too is learning like where he was coming from and we were really taught to fear him for a lot of really unfair reasons. Like he had some intrusive thoughts involving self harm and potentially harming my mom and he took care of it. I mean it was a mental thing it was an intrusive thoughts and you can’t control. But we were taught that he was violent and hurt my mom. And none of that happened. So it’s been really interesting like approaching my dad with like an open heart. As far as like what was your experience and I think it’s been especially difficult for my siblings because he’s still really gun shy about all of us which I don’t blame him for.

[00:17:58] And so I’m the only one talking to him at the moment. He’s not comfortable moving forward with other siblings yet and that’s been pretty painful for them. And I I feel for them and it’s been really hard. One of them asked me to stop talking to him because basically to shun him like just within the last few months because he’s talking to me and everyone else and I understood the impulse. But at the same time like I want to give him a place to finally kind of maybe get some of his family back and that’s not going to happen if I bring all these rules and laws to it.

[00:18:32] So I’m getting really off track as I think I know this is great. OK back to the child and there really I think this is important though you know because it Yeah it does show.

[00:18:47] Well you know it’s context.

[00:18:49] Yeah it’s context is that Piers that that perspective as well you know needs to be looked at you know taken in the context and this is all really a part of how how the brainwashing of a cult you know makes you see things the black and white ways and and discount the others experiences and things like that.

[00:19:12] So then. Yeah. So. OK. What was the your family has split up.

[00:19:22] You know you’re with your mom now and your. Is it all sisters or did you have brothers as well.

[00:19:28] So I have two brothers one on each end and there’s four girls in the middle. I’m the youngest of four. My oldest brother left the court when I was 12 and committed suicide when I was 18 which is an incredibly difficult thing to go into.

[00:19:44] I’m learning to come to terms with it. But his suicide was used as yet another fear tactic to keep us in the cult because the old verse the wages of sin are death was applied to him. And like if you leave you’re going to die too. Over and over and over and it was just really awful because we were never allowed to grieve our brother.

[00:20:06] I mean he was my big brother and I loved him so much and he had he was dead to us basically and he had to be and it was awful.

[00:20:17] And so but as far as the makeup of the call after my dad left the cult leaders brother joined shortly thereafter and he had he has two daughters and a son. So the main body of the cult was that family. So there’s five of them. And then my family and there were seven of us. And then the cult leader and his wife. And then my grandmother on my mom’s side. My mom also had obviously a father and a brother but the father was estranged. Even before the cult happened he was fairly abusive emotionally and physically and caused a lot of trauma to my aunt and my grandmother and my mom and then my mom had a brother who by all accounts now is just was an amazing man and exactly the kind of dad that I would have wanted to have had or like a person in my life. But they were ex communicated because they questioned the belief system right. They made the mistake of saying that what he was teaching wasn’t biblical because it wasn’t. And so we were taught to be afraid of them and that they were evil and that they were like Wicked Calvinists. And so we were really restricted to this very small group of people and we had to think all the same way and believe all the same stuff. And it was just a very phobic environments.

[00:21:46] So then what was the world view that you were given by the cold.

[00:21:51] Well it’s funny because there were two different things. I mean the aid specifically would say one thing and then act another way. But I grew up believing I was a Christian and that I was practicing Christianity in the way that we were taught back in like the New Testament where everyone’s at home churches. I had a whole speech about people because people would often ask me if I was in a cult. When I mentioned what I did for religion so much so that I had a complete spiel about how we’re not a cult. We’re home church. Like the Bible it’s wonderful. We want to come like blah blah blah blah. But the basic world view was salvation is conditional and love is conditional. If you make any mistake you have to repent or you’re going to hell. It was kind of like if the Big Book of Life that’s talked about in Revelation if there was an eraser around the end of your name would be written and then you make a mistake like argue with your sister and you’re out of the book of life. And it because of that I remember constantly feeling like there was a like a big cliff behind me and I was running away from it but it was following me and if I stopped for even a second I would fall in. Go to hell and never be saved. And that was just that in itself was pretty a lot of insecurity. And then couple that with the strong strong disgust and distrust that the cult leader had towards all other Christians the idea was that we were the only Christians that had this unique truth. We understood the whole truth which was conditional salvation the idea that we’re not. It’s not once saved always saved. It’s a continual choice that was very much wrapped up in some incredibly anti-Semitic beliefs regarding Israel which basically he went back to the idea that God made a covenant with Israel. They were kicked out of Palestine for their disobedience. And then when they came back in 1948 that was against conditional the conditions of the Covenant. That’s why they’re evil that’s why there’s problems in the Middle East. And it was always couched of course and like but we love the Jews and we don’t blame everybody. But that kind of really intense anti-Semitism does not get tangled from hate even if you’re trying to say that you have a loving mission towards them it was really like everything was blamed on the Jews. It’s really awful looking back but they didn’t believe that the Holocaust was what happened. And on the same token as you would imagine was also extremely homophobic and racist. My uncle would go spend the meetings that we had were anywhere from two to five hours twice a week. So we were sitting there just listening to all of his opinions. And one of his opinions that was really strong was that I think it’s Daniel there’s a prophecy about how the different races or different kinds of material. It’s very complicated and I don’t know how much of it’s actually biblical. But basically the idea that because of the way Abraham sons sinned. Black people are being punished forever and they’re like the lowest of the low. And then interestingly enough Jews are the highest. We are the true Jews because we are we’ve accepted Jesus like it was this very complicated convoluted thing that basically led to black people all their faults are because they’re black they’re evil. We should never muddy the races by getting married to them just like all this really insidious stuff and the cool eater had a pretty a huge Internet following but he had an Internet following and they were almost all of the like neo-Nazi ultra right people that appreciated this idea of like white men is best. Do not muddy the races like all of this incredibly. Problematic stuff that we’re seeing so much of in our culture today and how much it really does separate and divide us and being taught that from a young age and to feel any guilt feel so much guilt if you like have a friend who is black or a friend who’s gay or you know have God forbid you have a crush on someone who’s black probably just having a kind thought about someone of another race or sexuality was actuality we’re sure. Yeah the thing was is that there were things it was very contradictory because we did have a black man who joined the group for a while. Was eventually yeah he was eventually kicked out because he had the audacity of wanting to date and marry one of my sisters. But it was weird because there was so much double speak. I don’t know if you’ve read 1984 by George Orwell amazing book.

[00:26:53] Anyone listening. Let me read 1984.

[00:26:58] It’s honestly one of my favorite books because a lot of the tactics described were used like the idea of saying one thing and doing another doublespeak and the idea of like having two ideas that are completely contradicting each other. But like I can I can be friends of this black person but at the same time I believe they’re the lowest of the low. Like it was a very weird uncomfortable unstable way to think.

[00:27:24] Well yeah I’m in this black man joins this yeah that thinks that he is evil so I mean just think about the mother double speak but the cognitive dissonance that one would have to have exactly to to join something that is self hating.

[00:27:46] You know it’s pretty crazy to think about especially to think about. I have always been a very. I make friends really easily I’m I’m very introverted but I’m really good at pretending to be extroverted.

[00:28:00] I brought many people to the court meetings and there were a few times where I brought someone who one girl that I brought was bisexual and the poor thing just ended up getting yelled at by an hour for an hour and a half by the people there about how wrong that was and evil and like she never came back and I’m really glad she didn’t.

[00:28:24] I feel endlessly guilty about how did but how she was bisexual. It came up somehow I don’t remember I don’t remember how it happened I mean it seems like a pretty intimidating environment.

[00:28:35] Well it was the public. Public reproof sessions basically just public. You’re an evil person you should die. Sessions were really common. And if I remember right what happened with that was just that she she was very clearly not a conservative Christian. Yeah and so they started calling her out for that. And then she I think stood up for herself and for what she believed in and then they just got more and more awful. That was about a decade ago but it was really interesting to see how on one hand we’re like practice like Faith Faith we’ll save you and give grace to others and on the other hand we’re taught that if you hear a friend or see a friend or. Do anything slightly wrong like for example a friend had a tattoo you got a tattoo as a Christian. I’m perfectly fine with now by the way let’s see. She ended up getting excommunicated by us for that because the idea was that if you saw someone doing something wrong and you didn’t call them out for it that you would be culpable if they went to hell. And that comes from a very misinterpreted chapter in a sequel that talks about the watchers on the wall that you’re responsible to call out and like in the city. If there are. Marauders coming or whatever and if you don’t then it’s your fault.

[00:30:04] So I understand that there there’s a whole lot of that kind of stuff in the Bible.

[00:30:09] There is and the problem is when that’s taken and twisted and applied to every every little area and I think a really good example of this is when I was six. We had just moved into the new house in the neighborhood the neighborhood was great. There were like thirty five kids under the age of 15. So we had a lot of people around us and the first girl I met was my next door neighbor and she was four and we became really close friends but that was around the same time that the Cook got really intense. So I was sitting in court meetings being taught that for example Halloween’s really evil all modern day church pastors are bad and they’re preaching the wrong thing. Like all these really intense beliefs while being told that I need to tell people that so my poor little neighbor were over hanging out. I think it’s October just talking about Halloween. She’s really excited. So I go off on her about how Halloween is of the devil. Her pastor is bad and her mom got remarried so that means she’s able to and I left thinking wow like I help that little girl I saved her life. Like all these things because I’m a 7 year old and I was precocious and that’s what I thought I should do. And her dad came over and was just of course livid because this poor little girl gets told that all these things that are important to her evil. Yes. And so the dad who I loved you. He’s a policeman and he was just like the coolest man and he I looked up to him and he just like got so mad and my mom was really mad at me and I was really confused because I’m like I did exactly what I was taught right. Right. And my mother ended up getting publicly approved. The next day in the court meeting because the court leader said that what I did was perfectly right. And my mom shouldn’t be afraid of man and all this stuff but that that little incident in my childhood really shaped how I moved forward. It also was some of the first time I had doubts. I mean I was little and I was like this does not seem to me this does not seem right. Like I am just trying to help my friend and I’m getting yelled at for it. And then my mom’s getting yelled at and it was just this idea that we were meant to be like. Judging other people based on very very superficial ideas was really pervasive and caused a lot of problems throughout my life.

[00:32:39] Well sure. You know I mean a narcissist is the perfect judge jury and executioner you know. And then and then basically all he’s doing is teaching you to be a narcissist.

[00:32:50] You know you do the same but only at his specific way.

[00:32:56] I mean come on we have to have standards to set them up. He hears from God. Well yes. Yes.

[00:33:06] No it’s another piece of it was this idea that the Holy Spirit speaks directly to us. Granted he was the only one that really hurt him.

[00:33:14] But that idea that like the Holy Spirit and God are going to guide us and direct us through like basically verbal ideas especially one of the most detrimental beliefs that really I mean because in the name of that you can’t be racist and you can be all these other things and you can cause all sorts of pain because the Holy Spirit led you and it’s just for your gut.

[00:33:41] Yeah. And I mean look let’s face it. Usually when people hear voices that’s a sign of mental illness it’s not a sign of God speaking to anyone. Yes. We help those people we don’t put them up on a pedestal typically in a secular society and I know we don’t know anything but people do.

[00:34:06] What was childhood like. I mean because I mean obviously you had these two meetings a week and they were very long harsh it sounds almost rants from this this narcissist. What was childhood like at home. Did you have to like did you have to study a lot for these meetings. I mean it sounds like it was kind of winged but I mean were there.

[00:34:33] We had to do so kind of we were we were homeschooled so we were home all the time. Yes. Yes. And throughout the week there wasn’t there weren’t huge expectations of us. It got more intense around the holidays. We were required to give testimonies every year and that was always really hard because there were like five because it was Easter Thanksgiving. So I guess through Christmas I feel like there are more but that was really when we had to like study.

[00:35:05] But and then also there were a few times where we did offshoot cult meetings like there was a youth meeting for a while and that was much more intense. We had to like study and be prepared for that. But childhood mostly for me was just I mean I remember a lot of really wonderful moments. And I think that comes from I started to read when I was three and I never really stopped and I kind of grew up in books in a way that really protected me a lot from a lot of the more difficult experiences that my siblings may not have had the same protection from. I.

[00:35:42] Have a very vivid imagination and I’ve always been an artist and been creative. And so a lot of my childhood I think back on those moments and how even during some of them worst cult meetings where I was unknowingly self harming or doing other tools to get through it. I was often able to escape into my own world and that protected me so much and also helped me kind of like stand on my own two feet especially for example against the racist idea. I never stood for that like that that just never felt correct to me. I was really able to hold on to a few of my own ideas. I think largely because I did have my own safe world like I even had like an imagined room that I could go to that was safe and like all these tools that I use. I didn’t know where tools like them but they were what protected me I think in a large way an escape. It was very much of an escape. And it was an escape. No one could dictate. I mean my mother could dictate the kind of books I got. So could the cult leader. Right. But.

[00:36:50] I could still escape and I mean there are lots of things looking back that I did have a very happy childhood. I had people who loved me. I always had playmates especially for my little brother and I we played Legos constantly and we were in a neighborhood so we could run out and play tag with kids. It just got more complicated as I got older and was expected to like be more of an advocate for the cult. And when my brother left when I was 12 everything really changed. Then as you can imagine I remember that day I was doing what I usually did which was in lieu of taking notes like everyone else did.

[00:37:33] I was drawing in my notebook because I always helped me I was always drawing something still. Still to this day always during something. My brother there was a huge confrontation but I wasn’t really paying attention because it seemed like just another public reproof. But at the end of it my brother walked out and we never saw him again. And that for me kicked off a pretty intensive period of not understanding why we had to suffer so much. Not understanding why God would call us to do this. My mom would cry every day and I couldn’t understand why she had to go through this and why I couldn’t love my brother anymore. So I think before twelve even with visitation and all the other stuff it was pretty idyllic and in some ways. But after that that’s when I got my eating. It got real on my eating disorder began and a lot of the early signs of my OCD and anxiety and depression started and I almost left around that time period. Well I almost got kicked out. Yeah. So I was 14 and I had been just struggling for the last couple of years and I knew that if I left I would be shunned and I’d be exhumed. But it was starting to feel like a possibility and I went to my first ever summer camp. I met a boy. And I started seeing what life could be like outside the cult. And I just still didn’t understand why Christians have why we had to fear other Christians so much and so I basically told my mom that like I don’t understand why we’re living this life. I don’t think it’s worth it. And that called for a huge Bible study where they spent like five hours yelling at me and freaking out on me for a very normal teenage statement. I think it was the cult leader. Finally like made me pray the specific prayer and I was supposed to be all better but in the morning I woke up and I remember just I can look back on what that was depression. But just as very dark heavy sadness because nothing was different. And I felt the same way and so I went told my mom and of course that to her. She’s like oh no you’re being self-willed. This is evil. I’m going to send you to your dad’s house. And she literally sent me downstairs to pack up my room to move to my dad’s house. And you have to remember that my dad was someone that we were taught to be afraid of and be scared of that he was violent. And my brother of course had had similar narratives pushed on him after he left. So I mean leaving would have meant losing everything. Everything I knew. And becoming like my dad which we were taught. He was this selfish evil awful person and that if you leave that’s what happens to you. And I remember I that I had this little rag rug in my basement and I was sitting on it and I was crying and crying and crying and I was about ready to pack up. I was like Okay I’m going to do this. And then the fear of everything hit me so hard. No it felt like waking up and finding a gun in your hand pointed towards your head like it was like I can’t do this I can’t go through what it means to to be shunned and I often look back at that especially since my brother died and I could have potentially had some years with him before he died and I regret being scared away. But at the same time I was 14. I was very young and I had this is all I know my whole life. And I told that story for years as it was my Christian salvation story because that’s what it was to me at the time as long as I choose Jesus instead of my dad basically right which is a choice no one should ever have to make in my opinion.

[00:41:42] Right. You’re a big spend that was and forced you into. They really did.

[00:41:49] And for four weeks after that I was mocked and I was like told that I wasn’t behaving the way that no one could trust me again. Mike the cult leader called me up front of everyone and was like you put on such a good show. How do we not know you’re pretending now. And I just remember feeling this like deep seated piece about it. And I think that’s because I gave up my doubts that day. I really really did. I was like OK it’s this way or it’s out and I can’t be out. So I’ve got to be all in and obviously there were a lot of times when I questioned it later. But I closed the door so hard I’m leaving and then just a couple years later when my brother committed suicide it was used as a way to like backup that choice like for you if you’d left you’d be dead too. So basically my childhood was very pretty split in my mind. Like before start my brother left and after my brother left right. And also just. And that decision to really changed things.

[00:42:59] There’s much is so much here that I want to say. Got it.

[00:43:07] There’s just so many parallels. It’s fascinating to me how many parallels there are you know in this small family called and then what you see in larger cults. I mean yes you know what you talked about as far as like having an eating disorder anxiety ocd. You know all those things are about Carol. Yep. And when you grow up in a situation where you have no control over anything. Yes. Where your thoughts are controlled your feelings are controlled everything is controlled by fear and you start to seek control in any way that you can get it. Yes. And you don’t even know you’re doing it you know. No you don’t. It’s amazing. You know what the human psyche will do to try to right the messed up circumstances that people can live in.

[00:44:01] And you know I’ve battled my own I’ve got anxiety that I’ve dealt with a lot of anxiety myself I have a little OCD tendencies Yeah.

[00:44:15] And you know there are things like that that are experienced by people who are in these cults and they don’t understand that you know one of the reasons they’re experiencing it the cult that they’re in and you know it’s just very sad and it hurts so many people. And it really does. Yeah. And then it really makes me sick. How your brother’s suicide was used to cement you know things because I know with Jehovah’s witnesses what they want.

[00:44:56] They want us. If we’re going to leave they were. They’re not going to help us. They want us to suffer and to have the worst life imaginable so that we can come back. Also they can say See we were right. Yep yep.

[00:45:11] You know it’s they are willing to do anything to watch you fail.

[00:45:20] You know whether that’s not teaching you basic life skills. Yes. Yes. Because you know when you leave you don’t know how to just pay your rent or get a job or anything.

[00:45:37] So that’s a big thing that we. I’ve realized since coming out is how ill equipped we were. I mean because we were taught there was a huge age hierarchy first of all my little brother and I were at the very bottom of the power structure.

[00:45:53] And so not only with that so everything we did was dictated to us by others. We were taught that you can’t trust yourself. Your heart’s evil your heart is wicked. If you trust your own choices that’s wrong. I once bought a pair of pants I really liked. They were cargo pants. I remember thinking I was really cute but I was told that was evil and wrong because they look too masculine. We were allowed to wear jeans. They just had to be a specific kind. But it was like that kind of thing like literally every choice was dictated by someone else. So when my younger brother I love him so much but when he was kicked out at 17 he had no skills no way to like you know manage money. He didn’t know how to pay bills. He didn’t know anything. And so of course he kind of crashed and burned and used some really negative coping skills because they were literally. He had no idea how to fend for himself and think for himself.

[00:46:46] And we’re taught was how to well in your case it may have been the hate others or in our case that I mean it was it was essentially that it was to hate their behavior. And honestly as much as we were taught you know kind of the love the sinner hate the sin type thing. The honest truth is we were judging other people very adversely for their for their cause. So that we can feel better about ourselves. That’s really what it was. So it was hating on me even if it wasn’t true hatred of. So you know we were hating on other people all the time so that we can feel better about ourselves and that like that’s all we had. And so now you leave and now you need to what are you going to rely on these people that you’ve judged adversely and hated for so long.

[00:47:34] You know that’s that’s such a mind warp.

[00:47:38] And that was one of the really interesting things coming back into contact with my brother and getting close with him again was hearing how much the cult beliefs impacted him like he had to rely on other people that he would talk about them in a way that was very much from the cult or he would feel really like. And obviously I can’t speak from his story by that there was just always this like the deep ingrained patterns in our brain to distrust everyone except for 14 people who really caused us a lot of problems.

[00:48:09] I don’t come by trust easy. No not at all. I don’t know that how you can. I don’t either not after something like that it is very difficult to do so.

[00:48:23] It really is.

[00:48:24] Which then makes it difficult to have you know truly great relationships with people because you have a heart. Yeah. Letting go. Yeah we’re all. Most of us who leave cults have issues with control and feeling out of control. Yeah.

[00:48:38] So yeah it is it is difficult but yeah it’s just I hate that they that you know your brother was used in that way and I know you know Jehovah’s Witnesses kind of have like this self-fulfilling prophecy where though they’ll tell people that you know here is what worldly people are on the outside. There are these people that essentially just basically have sex with anything that moves.

[00:49:02] Yeah. Will will kill and murder will murder or steal or do anything for themselves they’re all selfish. So then people who leave often fulfill that prophecy I know that they they become that because they think they need to in order to fit in. Yeah. And then life turns to garbage and then they come back to the cult and then the cult uses them as an experience example. Yeah. Like look how bad it is out there and that’s the same thing they did with your brother.

[00:49:31] Is just is so horrible that the way you see even in this small family called essentially it’s one narcissist teaching other people to be narcissists. Yeah.

[00:49:43] You see how they they manipulate everything to make themselves look good. Yes.

[00:49:53] And it’s so it’s so petty and you know even like your mom who you know had so much fear was probably I. I assume you know at the beginning maybe even a very humble person because often people with a lot of fear kind of can be at first and then and then once they start internalizing that narcissistic stuff then it all becomes about defensiveness and ego. And that humility is gone.

[00:50:25] And you know it’s just sad to see to see you know good people who are hurt.

[00:50:32] Yeah. End up internalizing and becoming so much of what you know this this narcissist happens to preach and that I imagine that that would have bled through. So you said you were homeschooled. Did it bleed through just in your relationship I assume with each other I mean you kind of look like you had to tell on each other and there was a huge tattletale culture.

[00:51:03] Yeah. And that caused a lot of issues. We also were never like we were taught that emotions were bad so that caused a lot of problems as you can imagine especially I am fairly stereotypical of like the creative personality. So I feel things really deeply. Yeah I I have a lot of emotions and I was never given the words or the ability to tell them so they often came out in destructive ways like you were saying like with the control thing with the eating disorder with self harm with other maladaptive behaviors that were just used as coping skills.

[00:51:40] Yeah. I that whole teaching about the heart being treacherous and who can know it and yet not trusting your own heart.

[00:51:46] I think that is that is just that.

[00:51:50] Well maybe it’s not the most but it has to be at least one of the most insidious and harmful things that is taught by a lot of these religions and cults.

[00:52:03] I honestly think it’s the most crippling and it’s the one that is the best for them for the coal leaders because it gives you a population of people who can’t trust themselves and who can’t make their own decisions and who are terrified of any internal feelings or beliefs or anything they might have because the heart is wicked and will lead you astray. And after I came out that was one of the most difficult things I had to face into I could face into a lot of the other things like OK I really hurt a lot of people. So I reached out and I apologized that I like I was able to face up to that before I was able to realize it like oh I can’t trust myself that has I’m still not there.

[00:52:50] And I think it will take a while because when you teach someone from the smallest of age that they’re they’re prone to wickedness and they’re evil at their core and everything their heart says.

[00:53:02] Like for example I really loved rock climbing and I got really into it and this was an as an adult in the cult and I was told I was told that I was only doing it because I was prideful and that I was wrong and I like got reamed out for something that I loved as a human like as a human. I found it really really satisfying. It’s like a puzzle you have to solve with your body like rock climbing is wonderful because of this idea that we can’t trust ourselves and things that we like probably aren’t right like that got taken away from me and that was that’s just one example of many of the way that not being able to listen to your own wishes and what’s really used against us. And similarly I imagine the concept of death to self this idea that like yourself is bad.

[00:53:53] And so you need to give it up was used especially in the context of like disagreements or anything like the idea was that you needed to let go of anything you want it so that the other person could get what they wanted.

[00:54:07] Oh yes.

[00:54:09] And so that was a really problematic idea especially when used by the cult leader because he could get us to do whatever he wanted. You know he got my mom to take a second mortgage out on her house to support him because he never worked through this idea. Right. And he you know just got that concept was constantly being told especially if we had any doubts or any concerns like Daddy yourself Daddy yourself used to say you should be lower than the dog dish like on the floor. Yeah. That was like a phrase that we use for how we should think of ourselves. Is that like even more humble than a dog dish. And I think that. That again was a problematic idea because then if you have any pride in yourself like oh I painted a cool painting or wow that business I started really worked or anything like that.

[00:55:00] That was being prideful you’re being evil. I once as a 13 year old learned to bake pie and I was really proud of myself for it. I taught myself. I got called out by the most gentle quiet person in the whole cult. The one who like never yelled at people but she wrote all these Bible verses down and told me I was being evil and that pride goes before a fall. All because I was proud of the fact that I could bake peach pie basically blindfolded.

[00:55:26] And you see that it’s not even like it’s not really even pride it’s just joy.

[00:55:34] That’s the thing. Looking back and my husband’s really helped me see this. He’s like are just being like you. So much of the characteristics of of me as a young person or called too much and too loud and evil and bad when it was really just I was a very exuberant very happy very full of life precocious little person. I mean I was reading I was painting and I was like doing all these things. And whenever I expressed any like happiness in it or like look what I can do like any little kid that got really beat out of me because if you’re if you have joy you don’t need them they are miserable so that you have to look to them. Well I remember almost to the day like when I looked around me and saw that my three older sisters and my mom were just always panicked and always anxious and always like worrying. And I realized that that was my problem. It wasn’t anything else it was that I wasn’t being scared enough so my anxiety really came really strong. I remember being anxious as a kid but once I realized that it was an essential way to survive it became like the main thing I leaned on because I’m anxious and I’m feeling guilty and I’m feeling scared then I can’t be going to hell because I’m aware that I’m sinning. So this idea that like you have to just feel this huge weight of guilt and sadness all the time is really assiduous and problematic because then anytime anytime I felt happy or comfortable I got terrified because of Oh no I forgot I’m probably sinning because of this idea that we could sin at any time and we had this really weird definition of sin sin must also be like conscious moral rebellion against God as opposed to like sending him thought word and deed like the evil Calvinists look through the thing. But the problem with that was that was so up to interpretation. So the cult leader I once got yelled at because I was helping my aunt fix a faucet and she wanted me to stop. And I’m like there’s water spraying all over the kitchen. I’m going to keep going on this. And I got called out as being evil and bossy and bad because I didn’t immediately listen to her. So and so I wasn’t consciously doing anything evil. I didn’t know right. But because they had higher authority they could tell me that I was and so that was just another level of like anxiety and insecurity that we lived under because you could be told at any moment that you did something evil. Another good example of this was when I was like 13.

[00:58:13] There were primarily women in the cult like I know that I was really I wanted to ask you about that because that stood out to me and is usually a recipe for abuse.

[00:58:24] Oh it was very much so. All the men in my family got excommunicated by the like my brother was 17 my older brother was in his twenties and my dad. So they were all excommunicated and then the only men in the cult were the cool brother. Obviously the coal into himself. It her son who as a human is a very like. He is. He’s wonderful. He’s one of my favorite people but he’s very passive and he’s not going to kick up a fuss unlike my brothers who both kicked up fusses and then the only other one was a young man who joined from the outside world who did so because he had a really difficult growing up and he also was someone who was really drawn to this like Prophet living the world with this belief that only a few people know like it was a very attractive hero narrative for him. Oh so so those are the only men in the group. Later there was another my stepfather joined similar very soft spoken very quiet. He he. And then my sister’s now ex-husband joined knowing it was a cult actually. And he joined because he was so in love with my sister and wanted to save her. And that didn’t end up happening. But it was really interesting that the only people who really lasted who were male were people who were either related to the cult leader or were very quiet easily led type type B personality. Do I do I am I correct in assuming that the males that were there even the passive ones were.

[01:00:16] Higher in the authority structure than any women or actually no.

[01:00:22] That was a really weird thing. So there’s a lot of things about our cult that are pretty obvious and normal.

[01:00:29] But then there are some really weird things. And this is one of them. It’s my oldest sister was second highest in the cold third before my aunt died but she really was incredibly passionate and really bought into everything. I mean she the cult closed down around her when she was about 13 which is kind of a perfect age for hero worship and like really wanting to become a certain way and so she was. She actually took over the cult although she had she can’t admit it. So but she took over the cult after the cult leader left. But it was really interesting looking at like the structure and how things were set up there was there wasn’t any map another man that was as high up as the cult leader. I think his brother was probably like force but he was constantly the cult leader with constantly shaming and like deriding the other adults in the group to bring them down and like have people have less respect for them. Whereas he would raise the younger people and I think that was because they were easier to manipulate. Yeah that makes my sister especially was really easy to manipulate and she really had a rough go of it because of that system. But yeah I know it was very untraditional in some other ways too like you think of cults lots of people think with long Jean skirts and no makeup and like all these things and we. Weren’t the best way to understand it is that all of my uncle’s personal opinions became our are our laws and so he believed that women were supposed to look a certain way so that they glorify God. That we were supposed to always wear makeup and even if we were jeans they had to be a certain kind and we had to look a certain way but it wasn’t your typical all right conservative look.

[01:02:31] So what was he getting out of it. Was it just power for him or because let’s face it a lot of people who do this do this for money or for sex for power. Like what was it for whom in particular.

[01:02:49] I think it’s a number of things. First off he had this idea of himself as like a tortured prophet who had these ideas and he during this whole time was producing movies writing numerous articles a week that were getting published. He was going on radio programs so he had an amount of influence that was really spoke to him as like a power hungry person.

[01:03:13] He also had a lot about why I do this podcast. I’m not going to be concerned until you start doing it with David Duke. OK.

[01:03:25] So there was that power. He also was able to really dictate other people’s lives which I think was important. He got a lot of money out of it and he was able to have us do what he wanted. There wasn’t sexual abuse thankfully. I’m really thankful for that. Yeah very funny. Yeah. Because that is a very that often goes hand in hand. It was primarily a pretty intense spiritual and emotional abuse.

[01:03:50] But fortunately that did not factor into it. I think he just got this narrative that he wanted himself to be of this like fighting profit. That’s what he really got.

[01:04:05] He just kind of had like an internal life that he created externally. You know what. Something was in his head. He he kind of made it happen.

[01:04:15] He could make it happen. Yeah. And in so many ways I mean we grew up cleaning his house for him and I gave him my a lot of my money.

[01:04:25] And I would buy him art supplies and I would model for him and all these different things. He was just very much treated as like the center of our universe and.

[01:04:37] We were talking about it later after he after the call ended and things and one of the things that he really used was this whole hero narrative this idea that it was us against the world that he was this persecuted person who got the truth and then shared it with us and the world just wasn’t ready for him and it’s a very attractive idea because it gives your life purpose. You think that you are part of this group were you you are supporting a prophet and you are helping truth happen and maybe you’re saving lives. Like it’s really attractive and hence he made it that of course. So he got a huge ego boost out of it. In addition to power he had all these people following that narrative. Like just basically worshipping him and a lot of ways and a pretty attractive thing for a narcissist.

[01:05:29] He became God. I mean you know everybody was at his whim and his dictate.

[01:05:35] And.

[01:05:36] Well yeah.

[01:05:37] And we thought of him as being like God’s mouthpiece basically and his brother would end almost all cult meetings talking about how we were nourished by the meat of this meeting today. And aren’t we so glad we’re not normal Christians who only get milk and all this.

[01:05:55] It’s so like it is. Yeah.

[01:05:57] Amazing how these similarities run. I know I know. I mean it’s just I think that Charles pays Russell who started Jehovah’s Witnesses in the eighteen hundreds. He said that he was God’s mouthpiece. He himself declared that. And you know you just see these people they just they’re getting something out of it even if it isn’t always as nefarious as some sort of you know horrific sexual abuse or whatever. Yeah it can be as simple as power as being able to end an ego boost. Yeah yeah yeah absolutely. So I’m going to go ahead.

[01:06:34] I was just going to say people who I’ve talked to since coming out who knew him in the past like my uncle who was excommunicated my mom’s brother. It’s really interesting to hear them describe him because he was the kind of person that’s just incredibly caustic and self-absorbed and he took like so many people just hate him as a human. But the people who were fragile or had trauma in their past or needed like a cause in their life those are the ones that got entrapped by him. That’s why my aunt married him. I mean he was this handsome well-spoken very competent man who was like I am you know who is like this prophet and this hero and there is this this mystic mystical aura about him that a lot of people who are more sensible were like what the actual belief. You know like this is not normal. But those of us who are either grown up in it. So we didn’t know anything else or came to it out of a place of trauma. He was so elevated and it makes perfect sense to me why he would want that is because he got to fulfill the idea of himself. He had his head which is something we rarely get as human in my opinion.

[01:07:49] Oh yeah for sure. I mean because we do have to live among the collective among the community it’s not all about us.

[01:07:55] Well it’s interesting because he seemed to have this idea of himself from very young. And so I like to think about like well when I was young I wanted to be a mother of 100 an artist a veterinarian. Like all these things like right.

[01:08:08] But I obviously that’s a possibility or a life I would want now. But he seemed to never be able to look at himself as this ideal human. And honestly his childhood was also full of a lot of trauma. His parents were extremely active politically. They would march against the gay movement. There was a lot of really and like anti-communist like some stuff that was sure ok whatever that’s your beliefs. That’s fine. But he really took on this idea that he was this lone hero. And it caused an incredible amount of problems for an incredible amount of people.

[01:08:47] And it’s amazing because you know you see this stuff and it’s just amazing how one person can take on something like that. And like you said it hurt so many people and it’s very sad. I mean even you can still have some measure of compassion for the person for you know just to realize that like yeah you know they were set on a path but for some reason that person bought into that path and didn’t wake up.

[01:09:15] Well I think that’s something really important to realize is that we as humans are fallible and we are very very flawed and so often there are things in our past that push us on a path we may not have been on otherwise. And wow I have incredible there’s a lot of hurt in that area. I’m I’m never I don’t I mean thought that I’m still like I haven’t forgiven him or whatever. Like I have but at the same time there’s so much hurt in that relationship. I mean I don’t think it will ever be resolved but I still can look at it kind of objectively and think like no.

[01:09:56] This happened. You have stuff in your past. I don’t know about and that’s what you did. And for example his brother has been the most difficult because my sister married the coal brother’s son.

[01:10:07] OK so two women from two different generations married into this other family from two different generations. We’re not related but we’re. So my sister since my sister married his son though the coal eater still lives in her basement. They live on the same property as her in-laws and the coal eaters brother. Still convinced that everything his brother taught was right and that’s largely due to the fact in my opinion that he based his whole life around. Supporting his brother and doing everything his brother wanted. And if he believe now at the age of 70 plus that his brother was wrong his whole life comes down like there’s everything that he worked for and fought for and did only exist within this framework. This idea that his brother is a prophet and unique and saving the world. And so I say that to say that like I feel very lucky that I was as young as I was when I came out because I was able to rebuild my life and a lot of ways. And so if I’m I still am.

[01:11:12] Let’s talk about how you got to that point. So you had mentioned that you know you had this kind of like you know these two areas of your life. There was a warrior. Your brother left and then your older brother and then after he left. Yes. So then you know as you were a teenager or whatever you know how did you progress to this point where you did eventually leave.

[01:11:34] So I had a lot of doubts even though I gave up most of them but I still you know it was difficult I graduated high school when I was 15. Yeah well I’m very willing. It was a it was a snail mail college or high school. I got a diploma. I really wish I could have had gone to regular high school because I could have done like Advanced Placement things. But anyway so at 16 I started going to college and that sort of helped me start getting out there. But at the same time a lot of my friends were what I thought were fellow Christians. But there were people I couldn’t trust and I couldn’t like I wanted to go to church with them but I couldn’t. It was very complicated. I made some deep friendships that I had to excommunicate people from. So my teenagers were pretty fraught as far as I would find people that I loved and wanted to be with and then they’d leave because of the cult. And that was really difficult because you like them. Yes. So that would be really painful. People will either leave and kind of like never talk to me again because they’re like well this girl’s crazy or they would love like I would like my best friend of years I ended up having to shun her based on she was pro-Israel and we were anti-Semitic. And that was really painful. And that was one of the decisions along with in the same time period having to shun my younger brother who’d been my best friend. My closest person the whole time were the things that really started kind of pulling off the boards on the windows of my life in a way like really letting light get in and let me really start doubting this idea it was those really painful moments that helped me understand then right around this time my brother commit suicide and then a couple years later my grandmother who was a really important part of the cult and part of my life she died at the age of 94 which much less sad than my brother but still like it was a big change. Yeah. And then my aunt cleaner’s wife committed suicide shortly thereafter. Oh no. Really. Yeah. And that was an incredibly painful thing. She’d been sick for a really long time. She had a brain tumor when I was 14 which just exacerbated all of her mental issues. She devolved from this meticulous housekeeper that just her whole home was beautiful she dressed impeccably. She was going to be a concert pianist and really descended into madness. And by the end she was keeping bits of candy wrappers because of the color she was writing nonsense on her walls. She really descended into an intense madness that the coal eater blamed on the demons because the work he was doing on the internet was so important that Satan had to personally attack them. And there’s no way it’s just normal mental illness. No it has to be the demons. And so when she committed suicide he called her a martyr. He said that Satan himself threw her off the bridge and it was treated just completely differently than my brother’s suicide. Of course no of course. Wow. And my my aunt committed suicide because she wrote this really long letter because she said that she has to you will still be on this earth and her presence was causing God pain and she had to die in order to glorify him. And that was really difficult. It was difficult a lot of ways in some ways it was like she was she had suffered so much throughout her life. She was one of the most tortured humans I’ve ever met. She married my uncle after having an intense depressive episode where she attempted to commit suicide. I’ve had all these other issues and he I found out later especially he was incredibly abusive to her and always without a husband can be really oppressed her. She was anorexic and he encouraged that. He told her that when she gained any weight she was ugly and seemed to lose more weight. It was just an incredibly toxic awful relationship. And it was the one that I idolized growing up thinking that’s what an ideal marriages. So right now was really painful too but it was after that that my uncle descended deeper into. His really intense belief because my aunt as sick as she was was. It’s hard because she was also a fanatic. I mean she was his original fanatic a lot right. Right. But she was she had just a touch more compassion and kindness and she was a zealot. But more so for like the biblical Jesus in some ways. And so she kind of helped him from going off the rails. I mean he was off the rails but she helped him from going way way way out a little bit.

[01:16:53] Yeah just a little bit.

[01:16:55] Yeah it’s hard to stop a runaway train but we didn’t know how much until she was gone and that’s when he really went off the rails and became more and more racist and more anti-Semitic around this time period. I went on a couple mission trips with my best friend to join the cult as a grown up because of it she was an abusive family situation. How it always goes. But he went on a couple mission trips to Haiti when I was first time I think I was 21 and then I was twenty three like young adults. And but around this time was when my uncle got more and more racist. And so while we were okay to go to Haiti there was a lot of talk about how it’s you know the Haitians people’s fault because they believe in voodoo and that’s why all these bad things have happened and like there was a lot of racist belief that went unchecked.

[01:17:52] The thing that hurts aren’t the Haitian people largely black.

[01:17:57] Yeah that’s yeah. But he I mean somebody had to fund this.

[01:18:04] Was the mission trip trip through your calls or was it. No no no. It was through a different mission. No one was outside of it.

[01:18:13] We did separate fund. It was my sister my best friend is a nurse and it was a nursing thing. So she went by herself. And that was that was OK. But it was definitely not through.

[01:18:27] Yeah I was trying to figure out how this races through sending you to help you.

[01:18:35] We had permission to go which is still one of the most surprising. Yeah that is very surprising. But I think one of the reasons was was that there was this like. Double thought of like black people are evil but we should help them.

[01:18:49] They need us. Yeah. They need us.

[01:18:51] The white knight become come in which is crazy because when I went there I mean I learned a lot more from them than I learnt than they me. I know. Of course I did. And I. It’s still one of the most wonderful experiences of my life and I think it did help me in coming out and just realizing how big the world is and how much people can suffer. And yet they can still be wonderful amazing kind people the people I met in Haiti were. It’s just hard to explain how amazing and loving an opening they were. If even like across the language barrier.

[01:19:33] And yes I really credit that with helping me kind of find a way out but I was around this time that my uncle was writing a lot more. He was on a lot of political pop pot wasn’t pot guess it was radio stations. I should mention we were taught from a young age that politics was like really important. So I started I mean I think my first memory of picketing is when I was like three. We did pro-life picketing but we also did free speech and stuff against Israel. And I mean I grew up have distinct memory that would be called the.

[01:20:16] We would call the senators and vote against bills. We were told to do and I have distinct memories of like sitting doing my chores in the kitchen while being on the phone and like. My name is the dozens that would make up names a lot of the time so we could call more. I’m from Boston so and I vote against this bill. And so my uncle had always been very like politics are like we have to change politics. He got more and more intense and he was talking with more outright people and then he decided that he had solved the age old question of free well. And he came up with the idea that Jesus sinned by letting freewill into the world. That’s why he had to die Jesus was. Yeah I know. So fortunately all of us who still believed we were Christians and we’re biblical Christians this did not strike this did not work for us. It was the one idea that he came up with that was too far and it sparked a six week battle in the cult where my mother and my sister who edited all of his articles and typed everything up for him were like you cannot publish this. This is not right and we all fought against him. Well especially my family the other family was quieter but he just kept saying no this is right I’m right. And finally at the end of the six weeks he goes Well I have an announcement that after much thought the Holy Spirit has told me that this is not a biblical idea. And he basically. Agreed with all the points we’d made but claimed that the Holy Spirit told him instead of six weeks of us. Yes yes. And then quite out of the blue just a week later he sent an email to everyone saying he could no longer be leader of this congregation that we were too unruly and evil and he was quitting.

[01:22:12] I have to stop on that for a minute.

[01:22:14] I love that I love these people these cult leaders are so fragile.

[01:22:23] I know at the same time that they’re so narcissistic and they’re just bullies is all they all get and they get punched in the nose one time and they won and take their ball and go home.

[01:22:36] And the best part about this is that he had told us our whole lives because we did proofs. He said if I ever do anything wrong I just want you to tell me. Like my whole life. Like every every month at least we hear this. Right. And then we finally have an issue that’s worth going to the mat on and that we need to call him. On and he acts like the biggest baby in the world and he loses it and he’s just like he. Quits. No I mean let’s face it.

[01:23:10] Look and I’m not trying to make this political.

[01:23:15] I am not a person to be quite honest I’m not a Democrat nor a Republican. They have me. I’m just me and I have my own ideas and I don’t need to pick a side because they’re so polarized and everything. But you know let’s you know we have in office right now a man who thinks it’s those qualities that does the Vatican that you you say anything about him you punch him in the nose a little bit. He goes off on ones like a baby. Yeah. It’s it’s amazing. You know when you see someone who is a narcissist and has that big of an ego. Yeah. They cannot take any criticism at all. No not at all. And it’s the it’s honestly it’s almost as sad on a level. Oh it is because what you see almost as a small child that has never fully grown up and matured. Yeah. You know my dad was that way. Somewhat. You the type who I mean as soon as you questioned him on anything you know. Oh everybody’s persecuting him and everybody’s ganging up on him. When where you know the things that he would literally do to us all the time. Well of course you know and it’s it’s amazing to see how fragile these cults are. And it just makes you wonder you know years was a small family called. And so yeah the numbers were different. But I’ve always wondered you know enough people were to stand up against a larger cult no less. Let’s take Jehovah’s Witnesses for example.

[01:24:53] If enough people because I know there are a lot of people who are n who physically n but mentally they’re out there.

[01:25:03] They have to physically be and because you know they know that if they left they would lose their family and stuff. Yeah. But you just have to wonder if there were ever enough people that could get together at the same time and just say no I’m not doing this anymore. I’m not playing this game. And if all those people who had doubts and if all of those people who knew for sure that it was wrong would just at one time stand up and voice themselves a very public way. What would happen you know would the leaders at the top who are just bullies would they crumble would they cave. We’ve seen even in Jehovah’s Witnesses in the organization there have been policy changes at times. It’s usually because of outside governmental pressures. Yeah but they they do have the ability to make changes. And I just wonder you know at what point would it all come crumbling down or at what point would they at least have to make changes even if they said that the Holy Spirit revealed it to them to save face on some level so that they could keep their power. You just have to wonder what would happen and it’s just so it’s so petty and silly to watch somebody like your uncle just tap out because one time you all stood up.

[01:26:32] You know honestly I think that’s why I’ve been so drawn to dystopian literature throughout my teenage years. You see that happened in those books often not the best of them are the minority makes it a majority and finally like stands up to this tiny amount of people that are hurting everyone right. You know that’s like basically the plot of Divergent series is the idea that people finally realize that what they’re living in is wrong. And I think that we do have an immense amount of power. But as a culture it’s really hard to stand up and it all come together and unite against them but because we are such a small cult we were able to do that in a way that I don’t think is possible when you have ten times the numbers that we did. I mean we were so small that one voice was enough and it’s interesting looking back to my sister my oldest sister who was higher up in the cult was the most impacted I think by the cult leader whereas I who was way way down like at the bottom. I was more impacted by her and by my mother because the cult leader some of the doubts that I had were when he would get all butt hurt. Over nothing like he he he would spend hours yelling at my mother who to me was just like the most amazing woman. That’s all I knew that I or my sister. These people who I thought were like holy and wonderful and and good. He’s telling them they’re going to hell or that he’s comparing them to Miriam in the Bible who gets leprosy for standing up to Moses like all these things. And so for me seeing that really caused me to doubt him as a person in a way that I don’t think would have happened if he hadn’t been so petty.

[01:28:24] Yes that makes sense. It is funny how sad how you know it ends up you know one of the things I’ve talked about with my wife and I think I may have mentioned on a podcast before is just that have the greater colts.

[01:28:45] Yeah. And then you often have Colts within the Colts and often they are family systems. Yeah. No. My dad was very authoritarian my my wife’s dad was very authoritarian. Yeah.

[01:28:58] And yes you see the cult within the cult and it’s just this family and so just like you you know the way you looked up to your your mom and your sister. You know we looked up to our our parents you know whether it was my dad or my mom depending on the situation or same with my wife and this is interesting how those power structures are then made into these tiny powers within the cult.

[01:29:29] It really is interesting. It is.

[01:29:31] And that’s something that we noticed more once we came out is how much our family structure the unit with my mom. And as for girls and my little brother really got so I mean I think a lot of issues that would have just come from being a family and having lots of women got just magnified and twisted because of the belief system and because my sister suddenly like took kind of the like cult leader role in our family and she would individually like tell us what we couldn’t couldn’t do and she would give us proof from her place that like it was like a secondary cult in my family in a way that it wasn’t quite the same for the other family. Partly I think because the cleaner’s brother was his older brother and while he idealized everything his brother did he still there were some aspects where he was able to be like oh that’s just my brother. He’s being a little absurd in a way that we who believed him absolutely you just couldn’t do right.

[01:30:33] He had he had a tiny bit more perspective. He grew up with them. You know he’s seen his brother you know you know act out in different ways.

[01:30:44] However it’s been a power dynamic.

[01:30:46] Yeah yeah.

[01:30:48] Whereas for us he was and a lot of ways. Yeah. So.

[01:30:54] So then how did you go on this this trip. This mission trip you come back and then you know this issue comes up within the cold and your uncle takes it very badly and basically says I’m out you know. Was that it was that the the end of the cold. Or how did things go after that.

[01:31:15] No it was a very long process. Collier left and it was really shocking. He left by email. He didn’t even like come and tell us. He just sent a mass email. And it caused a lot of issues in my family because my mom and my sister were so vocal and were such a key part in them. I mean him quitting. There was a lot of like pain there and sadness and like hurt but didn’t know you’re in a cult. You thought we were Christians. We thought that what we did was unusual but it wasn’t problematic. I have recently found a letter that my sister wrote me when I was 14 my older sister. And it starts out with. I’m sorry I wasn’t kinder to you about your fears that we were in a cult and I didn’t take you seriously.

[01:32:11] And then it goes on to say well technically according to Webster’s dictionary we are in a cult. But that doesn’t matter because we have the right set of beliefs and so they come up against this over and over I mean people would hear you’re in the small home church about oh cool. And so when he left. It wasn’t like really oh we’re waking up. We were still so indoctrinated with this idea that we must the truth. The beliefs were so solid and my sister I’m pretty sure she doesn’t understand how this happened and she really took over and she she led what happened next. She would dictate how the meetings went. For a while there we were like each given a week of the year to do a presentation and she would be really harsh and critical. For example I at twenty four her twenty three I gave my little speech for the cult meeting and it wasn’t good enough.

[01:33:13] To do it again and like re research and so it was a very weird nebulous time period where we were starting to like come into our own but we were still very crippled by this idea that we were perfect and we had this idea. I mean because you grew up way been one way in the cold and then having to present this united perfect family front to the world it was really complicated.

[01:33:43] You can take the person out of the cold but you can’t take the cold out of the person. Not well known. Right right right. Anyway you know just because you leave doesn’t mean that it’s over. Well absolutely not. Because he left. Yeah.

[01:33:59] Since we felt that what we were doing was still valuable right. Obviously it was about two years of that and in the middle of those two years my sister decided to suspend the because we weren’t allowed to date. I was twenty three and I we were never supposed to date or anything it was all this controlled the cult leader literally picked husbands for people.

[01:34:26] There was almost an arranged marriage sort of thing especially for one sister.

[01:34:31] She did have an arranged marriage basically that be difficult in such an insular cult. Because there aren’t many.

[01:34:36] No there wasn’t anyone and there was this idea that God would just bring your person which just doesn’t happen especially if you’re crazy.

[01:34:46] And because we know a lot of us worked at the same place because what we did for a living was dictated what like I went to college but I was encouraged to not go to college for anything that I couldn’t do at home with children. So things that I want to do like nursing or was I’m a bit of a geology buff and I really want to do that but you can’t do that and have kids and like all these things were still really like dictated but for me what changes when my sister decided that a single girl should be allowed to date was very exciting because there were a lot of us there. There was my my one sister married the only guy in the cult that was available and then my other sister married a guy that she’d known that that film the cult leaders book independently and like that meant he loved her husband and he picked that person for her but the rest of us had no opportunity.

[01:35:51] There just wasn’t a chance and we would occasionally meet people in the outside world bring them back. I had one that lasted as long as a year and half but he eventually left after realizing we were a cult. He was brave enough as a young young person to give a list. He wrote down a long letter about his issues with the cult and it’s something that I didn’t know till later and I’m still impressed with him about that.

[01:36:15] But when my sister decided we could start dating that was really when my world started opening up. I got on eHarmony and within three days met my husband Ron which was very problematic for my family because they thought we were just going to start dating around and I found someone I could be serious with almost immediately. And for me talking to him who he was a pastor’s kid from the Midwest he’s very grounded and logical and trying to explain my quote unquote Christian beliefs to him helped me kind of see the chasm there and that we were so different especially when I started talking about excommunication. I think that was the biggest thing that he was just like you did what. Especially around my little brother and my best friends and realizing that those weren’t things I could stand behind and maybe I didn’t have to.

[01:37:07] And it was that idea that really helped me start recognizing how problematic our belief systems had been and that maybe we weren’t what we thought we were right. And so it was that discussion like as he was he was I don’t know why he stuck around. My family was really awful to him. They even though I was an adult they put intense rules on us like we could only talk to hours at a time twice a week maybe we weren’t supposed to text each other or email each other and we were in two different cities 200 miles apart. And so it’s not like we could just hang out all the time either and it was through that period and seeing my mom especially really go crazy because before the cult leader had been kind of above her and so she couldn’t go as nuts as she went with us. And she just kind of treated me like I was 15 and dating an evil person and it was just a really awful situation. But it was through that that I was able to see that oh my family’s not infallible. And our belief systems are whack. For me that’s what really helps. My oldest sister around the same time started talking more seriously with her ex-husband that they were married at one point they’re divorced now but he was the one who joined the cult knowing that it was a cult. Oh yes. He joined to help get her out but it was from her perspective an arranged marriage because she never shouldn’t have the same feelings and the cult leader kind of made it happen. But he really helped her and me because I was pretty close with him. Still am helped. Like I started slowly pointing out things that the cult did that were really wrong and really unbelievable. And so it was like a slow progression for my family that kind of all like realize that what we believed was incorrect. And my family I think was a little more ready to believe that because my sister was so intense in that belief and she’d always been the leader for our family since my dad left. And so we are able to follow her whereas the other family in the cult which was the cult eaters brothers family much much slower to follow because of course he still believed that what his brother did was right and he actually excommunicated all of us for a while. Specifically my older sister but kind of cut us all off for a couple months and then realized that I wouldn’t really work since his son married one of us. And so if he cut us off he’d lose like everything so.

[01:39:58] So how are you. How was the shunning then.

[01:40:01] You know you said earlier it sounds like the fact that you shunned that you excommunicated I think was a term that used you know your brother your best friend like that was kind of a pivotal moment when you were talking with your now husband about that. It’s kind of one of the things that I guess opens your eyes to the fact that this wasn’t a good way to be.

[01:40:30] It really did. I had always struggled with that. I remember like a lot of my doubts after my brother left were like why do we have to live this way. Other people don’t lose people from their lives. Other people don’t. I mean have hired a lot of extended family that we were completely cut off from. And we had to shun and I thought OK well that’s what we have to do but it never sat well with me. So when my husband basically sat there on Skype kind of like we are now told me like I don’t understand why that why you did that. I was able to start thinking about it and start realizing that maybe I didn’t have to do it that way. And I was the first among my family to really shun the idea of shunning life. And I reached out to so many people that I had shunned or had gotten shunned by the church that I was in the cult. For example I reached out to my little brother first and got him back in the family. I reached out to my best friend who she became a missionary and was out of the country but we were still able to like resolve. I was still like within the last couple weeks I remembered someone that I may have really hurt and I reached out to them. So that’s been a big part of my coming out of the Colts is reaching out to those people that I shut out of my life trying to explain kind of where I was coming from but also own the fact that I did that because I think one of the biggest part of this and one of the things that really separate a lot of us in this situation are being able to own what you did versus just saying that all happened to you. And that’s been a lot of problems in my personal family my life you know with my sisters. Some of them can still have a hard time owning the fact that they made choices in the Colts because we were so young and we weren’t doing our best. I recognize that. But for me it’s been really important to me to own what happened and to say I’m for it. I had quite a few friends that I got into the Colts who left or who got excommunicated and reaching out to those people and saying you know I had no idea. I’m really sorry. Whatever I did that hurt you I apologize has been really important for me as a human and also to feel like I have some level of control and almost everyone I think there’s only been one or two but almost everyone has responded with intense kindness and grace and love and especially my best friend who I unfortunately communicated her right before her mother died of brain cancer and I lost. She had a she. She was my first long distance friend only like an hour away but I lost that entire community. So I got pretty close with them but she who I think had more reason to be angry than most. I was just so gracious and so kind and so loving about it and I have another friend who she actually told me she’s like I knew you guys were in a cult and I knew that my only hope of helping you because I knew you had a good heart was to not get excommunicated. So she did everything she could. She stopped coming to the cult meetings because she knew her at meetings but she did everything she could to stay in my life and be there for me. And she’s been one of the most helpful people coming out of it and it’s been amazing coming out and realizing that these people that we were taught were evil and bad and all these things are so much more kind and loving and gracious than we thought we were the cream of the crop ever were. And it’s really helped me as especially to realize that grace comes in many forms and that grace and love it. That’s the thing I can really believe in is giving grace to others and giving love to them. And I don’t know. Obviously religion is still really painful and fraught for me. But that idea that like you can forgive and you get Grace and you can give love was so foreign because we were taught that you couldn’t do that unless you agreed 100 percent with the other person’s attitude and lifestyle. Recognizing that I can no give unconditional love has just been the most amazing experience of my life.

[01:45:07] Oh absolutely. Oh that’s beautiful. It reminds me of you. I hope I don’t get this wrong. I’ve never been in a 12 step program but I know I know that one of the steps is to make amends you know and and you have to think about it you know that person who’s making amends. Many times they’re making amends for things that they did while they were drunk or high or in their disease as they say.

[01:45:33] You know while those things contributed to it they don’t excuse all of it you know. Yes. And so there has to be some understanding for it which you know you’re experiencing through making your own amends. There’s an understanding on these other people’s parts.

[01:45:48] But hopes to see that the person is taking their own accountability and responsibility for what they did. And you’re doing that you know by by apologizing. Well I think that that’s been one of the biggest things for me that has helped me is just being really transparent about. I’m just doing my best and I know that I.

[01:46:15] Up I don’t if I could say that real word but my therapist said I should start swearing because we weren’t allowed to. So it. Was fact though you can say it was that it was a really fucked up situation. Really really shitty. And being able to like own that and move forward I think has been the most important part of my recovery and being able to say. I still don’t know. There was a moment I was in residential treatment for an eating disorder a few months ago still working on that but in residential is really interesting because we shared so much about our stories and everyone had so much trauma and sadness but they were all so gracious to me particularly around since I was raised to be so homophobic. I am learning how to interact with people that know how to like gay people and how to like what I should say and what I shouldn’t say. I made some a few mistakes but everyone was just so kind and like we know your heart’s in the right place. We know that you’re trying. There should be. It’s just so wonderful to experience Grace and this love from people. I was taught a work capable of it b weren’t worth it and you know get to see this from people that I wasn’t I was never allowed to be friends with. And it’s been really a wonderful blessing to. Know to own what happens and own the mistakes I made and just receive love.

[01:47:52] Well you know you have to think about you’re kind of doing right now like the opposite of shunning you’re going back. You know even among people I don’t know if you would ever would you have in the family court would you have said that you shunned gays or black people or.

[01:48:13] Yeah. OK. So you called it shining then. OK. Well we call the excommunication OK but it’s the same idea. OK so the same. So you’re learning how to now accept those people.

[01:48:27] Yeah and and may I ask is it is it still hard though the guilt is the difficult thing because we were difficult thing.

[01:48:37] That’s the thing. It’s not I.

[01:48:40] Sound like you didn’t buy it 100 percent anyway so that probably helps. But the problem was that we were taught that if someone especially if they claim to be a Christian and were gay or were living with their.

[01:48:55] Or were for example like an interracial couple that was really wrong that we couldn’t be friends with them. There’s a passage somewhere in the. New Testament that talks about you shouldn’t even eat with a center that says Yes constantly. And that was the most difficult thing was I was really excited to be able to have friends of different persuasions and be able to just give love to them and I still do that. But the guilt hasn’t is still there. There’s still so much like you haven’t reprove them you haven’t told them it’s bad that they’re sleeping with their boyfriend therefore you’re evil and you’re going to hell. It’s like that narrative is still very strong in my head. The more that I act against it and the more that I. Make rational choices to have gay friends and have friends of different beliefs and.

[01:49:50] All of this the better it is and it’s the volume is just really slowly turning down on the cultists and the guilt.

[01:49:59] It’s very slow but it is going away on a Jehovah’s Witnesses while they were always super. You know there’s one thing I’ve got to give Jehovah’s Witnesses is they were always very accepting of all people as far as as far as race or ethnicity goes. Yeah. They were very progressive in that way though. I honestly. Have to wonder whether or not some of that at the beginning wasn’t just an easy way to get members. Yeah you know because the other religions that wouldn’t have been allowed. But if they accepted you know black members then that helped grow their numbers up. You know maybe I’m being a little too critical there. I don’t know. Maybe they did have a good heart. And if that’s the case you know that’s a beautiful thing and yeah they’ve always been very accepting in that way. Jehovah’s Witnesses are absolutely. Absolutely look the Bible has has has verses that. It takes some apologetics to make it sound like the Bible is OK with homosexuality. No kidding. Really it’s a difficult thing to get around. And you know you can describe it to you know it was that place and time or you can look up certain words and and try to make it means something a little bit different. But you know whether in the Hebrew or the Greek but it’s it’s not really easy to get around that. And the fact is that Jehovah’s Witnesses you know are kind of bible literal literalists. I mean they really take a lot of it fundamentally. And so they do actively preach against homosexuality. Yeah. And so happened in my cult. Right. So it’s very we’ll say some people will say Jehovah’s Witnesses are not homophobic because they’re not like again. It’s coming back to you know loving the San hater hating the San loving the center and trying to separate those two out. But it is very difficult at the same time when you have been taught you look down upon those people and to look at them a certain way to look at them as being worthy of eternal judgment by your god it is very difficult to separate that those two things out and they really talk about Jehovah’s Witnesses especially. It’s really ramped up as as gay culture has been more and more widely accepted which is a beautiful thing. I’ll never forget the song by Macklemore won love. I think it is that song when it came out really hit me hard because I didn’t want to hate gay people like I had kind of roundabout been thought to do that.

[01:53:17] That song really impacted me I love that song and just remember though you know I think there are so many people though that while they may claim Well we’re not homeless homophobic it’s just you know the Bible’s happens to say this thing. Yes you are absolutely homophobic.

[01:53:36] You know there are lots of ways to couch your beliefs so that they don’t sound as bad as they are. Yes. And I think in systems like the call and it sounds like a Jehovah’s Witness. You’re taught all of that. Yes.

[01:53:48] Yes absolutely there’s so many tricks we had to perform on our own mind to get around loving to judge people.

[01:53:55] And don’t forget that you’re being loving and if you don’t judge them you’re not loving them.

[01:53:59] Yes we were talking shunning was loving it loving because you’ll make them feel bad and they’ll come back to the only one true path you have to tell them the truth the whole truth and if they don’t like it that’s their fault.

[01:54:10] But right. Maybe they’ll look back in the future and oh like yeah they were right. Right. And that’s you saying that’s right.

[01:54:18] And these and Green’s thoughts and feelings of people you know they they don’t die easily. Now I know it’s tough for people and I just think it’s something that needs to be said is that you know we when we see somebody that is is trying to do the right thing when they’re when they’re trying to get over this stuff. Yeah we do have to be patient with them because these things they’re ingrained from the time that people sometimes you know from their formative years in a town that they’re children and yet it’s not easy just to you can change the way you think. But the way you feel. A lot of times lags behind.

[01:54:58] That’s the really big thing that I’ve noticed is the real disconnect between mental belief and then the rest of it because there’s a lot of things that logically I can look at and think OK that was wrong. I’m not there anymore. Say for example I have pretty severe PTSD from the entire experience and logically I can look and think OK I shouldn’t be freaked out when someone just mentions the word thin but emotionally and like all those pathways in my brain there’s so many things that can trigger even a smell like you have a flashback and it’s just like logically I understand this isn’t the way that I feel and logically I know I am a grown woman who lives in my own house who’s in a different state from everyone else who’s in the Colts first person not to be excommunicated who moved away like. I recognize that but there’s still this huge part of me that little girl that was taught that you know you’re constantly at risk for sinning and if you send a note repent in time you’re going to go to hell and you have like all these rules and laws and things to follow that becomes like literal pathways in our brain that take a really long time to fix. I think that’s an understanding that no it’s not. It takes a while.

[01:56:25] Has been helpful. For sure. For sure. And I think that society at large needs to understand that. I think that we have. We have a culture now that is super focused on certain things that are hurtful things but culture has come a long way.

[01:56:45] Yeah and sometimes it’s it’s easy to focus on how far we have to go and not to appreciate how far we’ve come.

[01:56:53] That’s been a big thing for me too. It’s like it’s hard to not feel especially because you know healing is linear. You can have moments that feel like in the beginning but it’s been helpful to remember that like I am a lot farther along than I used to be. But I think this idea in our culture that like mental health is not same as physical health. And it’s your fault in some ways. I really got pretty injured when I was first coming out. I just got married I just moved away from the state where the cult was and I went to a doctor. I’m really depressed. I’m suicidal. I’m really scared and she put me right on some really addictive meds and told me that as soon as I just if I just journal my story and went to therapy for a month or two I’d be fine which is not even slightly been my experience.

[01:57:46] And she set me up to think that like I’m broken if I don’t get better fast enough and that is just I think comes down to not understanding mental health and how living in one experience for years and years and years really impacts your future. I mean I like to liken it to since we were so legalistic and so intense that like it’s kind of like and in finding nemo when the fish are in the fish tank. They’re in a tank. They have walls. They know every inch of that tank. And yes they’re very very shut off and closed but it’s safe. And it’s known and you know the dangers and you know the risks. And then you get out and you’re in the open ocean and you have never been there before and you don’t know what you’re doing. And it’s hard to not miss the safety of the rules. The fish tank you know. And so that for me coming out was really difficult. And suddenly not having everyone in my family tell me what to do especially because I was the youngest girl and I was constantly told what to do by other people how to be what color to paint my nails.

[01:58:52] Now you have responsibility for yourself. And it’s kind of horrifying.

[01:58:59] It’s like it’s like you only eat one meal for your whole life and then all of a sudden you’re in front of a buffet and you don’t know what to do. And it’s it’s scary. And then you have guilt because there’s parts of you that do miss your negative coping skills and miss the laws of the Colts and miss the way things were ordered as abusive and wrong as it was. You knew it like I knew. I knew it. And that’s all I’d ever known. And so coming out and I can drink alcohol now and I can kiss my boyfriend if I want and all of this stuff was just really overwhelming.

[01:59:38] And it’s taken a long time to process and I still have a lot to go but I think that that’s an important thing when dealing with people who either are shunned or are coming out and maybe shining is just recognizing that it takes a really long time to fix those broken places in your brain and just give as much grace as you can because you don’t know everyone’s story. You know you don’t know what happened to them.

[02:00:09] I really do believe that that old quote that be kind for everyone you meet is fighting their own battle is very accurate.

[02:00:16] Very true very true. So see where did everybody end up.

[02:00:30] You know you don’t have to address individuals. We don’t we don’t have to know where each individual ended up. But I mean it sounds like the court kind of dissolved is that it.

[02:00:42] It did dissolve in a lot of ways. Everyone in my family who’s still living is either in the same town or within a couple hours. I’m the furthest away and we’re planning to move farther. So location wise that’s what happened but I think in a lot of ways it’s really interesting looking at how people have progressed belief wise because the three of us. My best friend and my what my single sister and me we kind of came out quicker because we had partners or people in our life that we could trust that were outside of the cold whereas the older girls and my mother my mother remarried and he was he became a Christian in the cult. So he like she didn’t have any perspective. And similarly with my my sisters who both married people who were in the cult and I think that that was a really big divide and still is in. Like I feel incredibly blessed to have my husband who’s been really patient and loving and supportive and helped me see things in a different light. And so that was a really big chasm for a while and there were some really awful moments where after the Colts was quote unquote ended and after you were in a cold they still acted the same way. Specifically to me like threatening me with execution for moving away even when we were supposedly not practicing excommunication anymore and just it took a long time for us to realize for everyone to realize how damaging the way that we talk to each other the way we interacted the way we told on each other and there was a telephone game always being played.

[02:02:28] So my family has really struggled especially because for so long we were forced to be really really close to people. You know if you have only 14 people in the world you can trust you get close. But then when you realize that you have a whole world of people out there that you can trust and that you love live differently and you can move away and still love your family. It’s been really complicated and I and a lot of ways I mean I was one of the first people to start reaching out and unchanging people. I moved away. I was the first one to get therapy specific for the cold.

[02:03:09] I have done residential treatment like I was kind of in the front. And that caused a lot of problems in my family because as one of the youngest for me to be going ahead it was pretty normal.

[02:03:28] No problem. This. The family rules the family. Yes.

[02:03:32] Yes. And there was one moment specifically where towards after we decided that we were in a cult more trying to come out of that I tried to act like we weren’t in a cult. My entire family sided against me and told me I was able to my I going to hell. That was horrifying because I thought that we were all on the same page and we really worked. It was a really awful thing because it was my oldest sister just not being able to come to terms with the fact that we weren’t the court anymore and there wasn’t a power structure and all this stuff. But that for me was a really important turning point because I began to realize that I could be autonomous. My family wasn’t always right and I had the ability to make choices on my own and make pretty damn good choices well good for you.

[02:04:24] Yeah.

[02:04:25] And it was an awful way to get there and it really kicked off my PTSD and a lot of issues I have with my family. And there are a lot of things I don’t know if I’m ever gonna be able to really talk out especially with my two older sisters.

[02:04:37] I don’t know if I’m ever gonna be able to be like you really fucked me up and I get that you are a kid the cult too but I have acknowledged what I’ve done and I need that from you. I don’t think that’s ever going to happen. But that’s what. No send letters or for. Is you know right now send letters.

[02:04:55] Yeah I know what you’re talking about where you write something out. It’s more it’s really for you you’re writing to the other person but it’s a way of getting things out.

[02:05:05] Yeah well it’s a way of getting things out hopefully because at this point me going to my sister’s and being like you messed me up. I don’t think that would be helpful for them or their recovery.

[02:05:14] And you know for me you can’t get water out of a dry well you know if that person doesn’t have it to offer right now. If they’re not in that space you’re not gonna be able to get it.

[02:05:23] Well the thing is too is that we’re all in different places. I mean my one sister still the cult leader lives in her basement.

[02:05:30] I mean he’s literally in her basement and he still has the same beliefs himself and what he is.

[02:05:36] He basically has shunned everyone so he lives as a like a recluse except for his brother. So he doesn’t ever talk to my sister even though they share a house still run the website and such.

[02:05:46] So he he never learned how to do any of that stuff. We did it all so you can’t do anything which is actually kind of awesome if you think about it.

[02:05:54] So basically his poison is now contained to a basement which is wonderful.

[02:06:01] Yes. The only times it threatens to get out is when he has some weird new scheme. He thinks he’s an amazing artist. He’s really. Anyway he is when his brother decides to like see if maybe they can get his work out there. But fortunately my sister’s husband which is the cult leader’s nephew he is kind of starting to take over the role of his dad like running the family business and doing other things and so he’s kind of able to keep a really good lid on the cult leader that lives in his basement.

[02:06:36] So how old is the cult leader now.

[02:06:39] Let’s see he’s going to be 70 this year. So yeah just a couple months. So yeah. So it’s just a very interesting situation. And it’s been really complicated and there’s been a lot of hurt feelings and a lot of a lot of stuff that’s had to come out and put back. And we I think are all slowly starting to be able to really give each other Grace but that took a really long time and then because we believed that moving away from the city where the cult was was evil there was a lot of feelings about that especially because I not only moved away from the city but from the state. So that caused a lot of problems. And then we’re planning to move even farther away which is still problematic for people. It’s been a really interesting thing watching people slowly catch up like one sister especially we were really anti alcohol and anti I know all the fun stuff. And it was really interesting watching her be really judgmental of those of us who decide to drink. And now just being like I love it. It’s great. Like not too problematic but like I can have a you know a grapefruit shandy if I want or whatever. And it’s been really interesting watching people come out and slowly like find their place and the need to is that we a lot of my family found a Christian church that they could go to but they were almost all in different churches. And I really appreciated that because it meant that we were finally at a place where we could make her own decisions right now in the biggest moments. And that was a while ago. Just looking and like OK one sister doesn’t want to go to church that’s great. This sister goes to this church and the sister goes to that church and my mom goes to another church. And.

[02:08:33] So watching people slowly find their own beliefs has been pretty wonderful. And especially once everyone’s gotten therapy that made a difference.

[02:08:47] So literally then. Or is everyone in therapy.

[02:08:50] Yes the one whose name is my little brother but he is starting to go soon which is wonderful. He I think had the roughest go of it being the youngest the lowest on the totem pole being medicated at 17. I mean such a young kid for it. I mean really looking back he shouldn’t have been shunned. He was just being a 17 year old like literally that’s all he did to get kicked out and so and he too. He wasn’t there for the last five years and the last five years the cult leader got so crazy that I think especially for me it was easier to realize that what we did was wrong. But for him he was on the outside looking in and he still for years and years afterwards believe that we did right by him that kicking him out was good for him like the poor guy.

[02:09:44] Either. There are witnesses who leave who are excommunicated or shunned disfellowshipped for you know usually a behavioral issue. And yet you know decades will go by and they still believe that the witnesses have the truth and they’ve never really looked at the doctrines or anything and it just feel like they’re terrible people. Yes. And you know they carry the shame with them and I’m so glad that your brother is going to get some therapy because it’s not it was never his fault. What was messed up situation. And you know I feel for anybody who carries that burden around for so long because it’s just not a it’s it’s such a harmful place to be and it’s so not fair to themselves so harmful.

[02:10:36] He was never equipped to be on his own.

[02:10:40] It’s been interesting though since we were really close and we were and basically we have a lot of the same memories and because of the cold beliefs one person’s totally right Winters is totally wrong. We both were told a lot growing up that our memories were made up or didn’t happen that I especially was told that I was an exaggerator and a liar and all these things that my little brother really internalized that I did too. But he especially because he got kicked out for that and then he he was living away from the family. It’s taken him a really long time to realize like that differentiate the cult voices in his head and by voices I don’t mean like schizophrenic words you mean like the thoughts and the in the impulses the programming from who he is.

[02:11:28] And it’s it’s only just been recently especially because pretty much all of us have either been suicidal attempted suicide or committed suicide.

[02:11:35] All my siblings and be cut and that the beliefs that we have about ourselves and about that you know the world will be better off without us and we’re self-willed and all things has been so detrimental. So seeing him finally come from that place to like being willing to get help has been just wonderful. I’m really hoping he finds a therapist that really helps him because I have been fortunate to find some really good people.

[02:12:05] You have to go into it knowing that not every therapist is going to be good for you. Oh yeah. It doesn’t necessarily even mean they’re terrible. You know there are just not a good fit so you can’t put too much pressure on the fit of each therapist if they don’t fit. That’s fine you’re paying them. So just pay somebody else move on.

[02:12:25] That’s not the funniest thing about my family is my mom. She’s like I don’t feel like I’m learning anything from my therapist. She’s not giving me all this good input. I was like Mom you’re not getting another cult leader.

[02:12:37] That’s not the point of a therapist. That’s an amazing thing.

[02:12:42] She she expects it. And I think a lot of us add to it that like OK people we had to refill the slots so that’s why my sister stepped in. And then like a therapist stepped in and I know for us to because of that mental illness we also had these rules about like my mom because she’d been so hurt her whole life and lost so many people. She like if people weren’t say you had a friend and you had to text them first a couple times if it was over three times they didn’t care about you and say you should just cut them off.

[02:13:14] So like these crazy rules that just came out of fear impact it impacted so much. Like from a therapist and deciding you hate your therapist and then not going to therapy ever again or like trying meds and the meds don’t work so you shun meds and there’s just so many ways that this like all or nothing idea really impacts and devastates people.

[02:13:41] So then we you know we’ve talked about a lot of the negative impacts.

[02:13:46] What what are you looking forward to in your new life. WATTERS I mean I know you’ve got this move that’s coming up and you’re happily married. How long have you been out like kind of officially officially.

[02:14:00] I’ve been out for two years. OK. Well I can’t.

[02:14:04] Yeah. So then you know what. What have you. What are the happy moments so far. You know what has already changed that you’re you’re excited about and then you know kind of paint a picture for us. Where do you want to go in the future.

[02:14:18] There’s a lot of things I want to do. Some of the really simple things that have made me the most happy we’re being able to read and watch things that I wasn’t before. Like for example the first time I read Harry Potter changed my life because I wasn’t allowed to read it growing up. Yes. And I identify so much with especially Neville Luna and Darby as who I like who I am and Dobby was one of the people that I was able to use.

[02:14:46] If you’re familiar with the story no to movies. Hello.

[02:14:51] Yes I know who he is end up having to they basically punish themselves if they speak anything bad against their family. So throughout the story we see Dobby. He hits his head against the wall when he says something bad evil family. And I just was like that is exactly how I was.

[02:15:08] And recognize that a lot of my behaviors were punishment urges and seeing that Darby really helped. So that like simple if like I read Harry Potter and now I can be a pothead.

[02:15:21] That’s just amazing for me. It’s also been really cool to recognize that the world is open to me. I don’t have to do. I don’t have to have a mission or do anything big. I can just be a human. I can I can be here and I am looking forward to.

[02:15:39] We want to get some land and have a little bit of a homestead and that’s possible because we can move away from the really expensive area that we live in. Before we couldn’t and I if I had stayed in the city I was born in I would I don’t think I’d ever be able to buy anything because it’s a very expensive place to live. So that just like little things like that. Like realizing I have freedom and I also one of the earliest times I realized I did was my family really disliked my now husband when we were dating largely because he knew what he believed and he wouldn’t listen to them and he was kind but firm as far as like you guys are crazy.

[02:16:22] And one of the first things I ever did to really define my family was I didn’t break up with him when they told me to. They tried to get me to break up with them three times and once by text message and I just remember thinking I cannot lose another person I cannot shun another person unless I have a really good reason and that choice was the beginning of me being able to make choices on my own and that’s been one of the best things about being out is if I want to wear a certain dress I can wear it if I want to have blue toenails I can do it like I don’t have people telling me what to do and where to go what job to take and obviously you know I am married so I don’t. It’s not like I’m like. Screw you I’m going to do everything on my own but it’s still there’s just so much freedom and being able to make your own choices and to decide that what’s best for your new family is to move across the country or you know. So that’s just wonderful. And then the other thing I have loved art my whole life and it really got poisoned for me in the cult because the cult leader only admired things that were like him and my style of art was not like his much more. It’s called an intuitive painting an abstract art. I really enjoy that or I’m kind of cartoony and I’ve always been that way and I stopped doing art for years and years because he would laugh at me and call me out in front of everybody and say how awful my art was. Which is really painful when you’re a teenager and it’s like no thing. Yeah yeah. So one of the best things that I did for myself after I realized that my uncle wasn’t the kind wonderful person I thought he was about. I pulled out my paints and I started painting and I haven’t stopped since I have an Etsy shop now and I’m just I just paint to paint and it’s really a huge gift to realize that I can write my story and tell my story and paint my story.

[02:18:17] I don’t have to worry about putting people in my life in a certain light or doing it in a certain style and just that freedom that has come has been so wonderful and so you know I look forward to the future as I continue to heal and continue to get better from you know processing trauma and going to therapy and finding the meds that work for my OCD and stuff and I really look forward to a life that I can create. And my husband and I can create together that works for us and that isn’t doesn’t have to fit a certain mold. And you know if I want to go back to school and get a degree I can do that. And if I want to you know write a book which I do I can do that too and it doesn’t have to be exactly what everyone thinks it should be. And that’s been I think one of the the wonderful pieces of this whole business has been realizing that I have a ton to me and I have choice. And while that’s terrifying.

[02:19:24] It’s also really exhilarating. A lot of ways I think.

[02:19:31] I think that is the perfect way to end your story. That is beautiful.

[02:19:36] All right. Yeah.

[02:19:38] I want to thank V for being so honest and open about our life and the family court that she was in. Sometimes out of something ugly can something beautiful come and it seems like V has found the beauty in herself in life and in others as well.

[02:19:53] You’d like to send a message of support to me. You can do so by going to shunnedpodcast.com where you can leave a comment for you can also find the resources that were mentioned in the episode there and the video for the song that she chose to represent her journey. V chose the song that come thou fount to represent her journey in the email where she told me that she wanted to pick the song she said and I quote the song that was picked was Come Thou Fount we used we used to change the words to make them fit our doctrine of conditional salvation.

[02:20:25] We took the most issue with the verse bind my wandering heart to the one I was dating my husband we had a long argument about it it was one of the first things that got me to see that what we believed wasn’t biblical and the first time I sang that full song in a roomful of Christians who believe in grace and love and acceptance was one of the most poignant moments in my life such a privilege to love without conditions and give grace and to recognize that we wander and mess up.

[02:20:56] I think that’s a that’s something we can all learn from we can all learn from that sentiment right. So that’s not only the only place that you can leave a comment for her on the episode as I said before we also have a Facebook group called Shunned Podcast where we have people discussing episodes and their own lives. And I try to do things to encourage members to find good things in their life and to grow. As I stated earlier I want to give you some highlights of the past month just to give you an idea of the supportive group that’s forming Wednesday we post things that we’re happy about in life this week. Things that are going good on Wednesday. Every weekend we post things that we’re doing for ourselves as part of self care something that we were never really taught to do in these cults. This month we’ve had a couple that were serve papers to attend judicial hearings to be disfellowshipped we also had someone disassociate. We celebrated with him had a watch party for the Leah Remini special on Jehovah’s Witnesses. I don’t know if you got to see that or not but if you have not seen these special Leah Remini and Scientology where they cover Jehovah’s Witnesses is a must watch. Whether you were one of Jehovah’s Witnesses or not that special was so well done and relatable for just about anyone to learn more. We also celebrated Thanksgiving together a little bit. We kind of talked about what we were doing there. We’re showing off our Christmas decor and I even started a Secret Santa gift exchange for the group things are happening in there. My goal is to keep it more about us as individuals. Our stories supporting one another not just keeping up with the latest jazzed up stuff or maims or whatever but this is about us and it’s a place for us to heal to explore the things that have happened to us or how they might be impacting us even today and to encourage one another to live better lives. You can also find the podcast on YouTube under the Channel shunnedpodcast. One word on Instagram shunnedpodcast one word and on Twitter at shunnedpodcast.

[02:23:05] Also one word if you’d like to hear my story and great insight into how the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses works you can do so at the podcast called this jw life.

[02:23:16] Also found at thisjwlife.com Haven’t had any new Patreon supporters for a few months but I want to take the time to thank the people that really helped me to make this show possible by helping to support it financially. Seriously this show takes not just work and time but there are costs involved in getting the audio hosted the Web site and doing transcripts and keeping the equipment going you can support the show for as little as a dollar a month and it means the world to me to know that there are others in this with me. It’s encouraging to see people who want to support what I’m doing here. You can do so at Patreon.com/shunned If you’re so inclined Oh and another great way to support both shunned podcast and This JW Life is to head over to iTunes and leave a five star review for them. It helps them to get found in the searches on there. And if people can find them then more people can find the help they need next month we’ve got another former member of Jehovah’s Witnesses named Jenny. We’re going to talk about how a congregation reacts to sexual assault. Mental illness in the cult. The fallout from a rough life in the cult and leaving it behind.

[02:24:25] And so much more we’re in a close this episode out with the song no hell yet by fair voyeur.

[02:24:32] You can find a link to her song to the Patreon page for the show. Two resources that were mentioned and more not just on the Web site shunnedpodcast.com. But if you’re listening on a podcast app you can probably get all the information in the app by looking at the description. So as we end all episodes love others do no harm and go be happy.

Episode Twenty – Tamara is shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:40] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we expose religions that you shunning is a tool to control people we have a great look into the narcissism displayed by many of Jehovah’s Witnesses. The tone deaf way in which they react to others around them while they’re while they sit around admiring their own beauty. You know I don’t know if you know the myth of Narcissus but it’s about a man named Narcissus that’s so beautiful. He’s followed by admirers different admirers depending on the version of the story you get essentially Narcissus ends up being very rude to those that admire him and his beauty. So he is taken to a lake where he sees his reflection and he is coerced to sit there admiring himself in that reflection unable to pull away and unable to have the object of his desire. He ultimately either melted away into the flower that now bears the name Narcissus or he committed suicide Narcissus can’t really take the perspective of others they can’t see outside of themselves. It’s my assertion that Jehovah’s Witnesses both attract and create narcissists they view people as objects not people with their own feelings and perspectives only their thoughts and feelings matter and everything is about being right. And of course they’re always the horns in the right at best. Others are a problem to be fixed or dealt with. If you think about it the God Jehovah that they worship according to their doctrine is going to come and kill roughly 8 billion people in a mass genocide just so Jehovah’s Witnesses can live on earth in peace and harmony. It’s a literally wipe out the mass of humanity so that you can live as you wish without others around all bothering you is the epitome of narcissism through this story you’re going to meet to mirror a young girl showing up through all of this and and who came out as a strong woman not just strong enough to make it through but strong enough to tell her story. And this is a fresh story too. This is something that happened just earlier this year and something that she told to me just months after it all happened. Stay ahead of these interviews by several months. So I actually recorded this months many months ago. So stick around after the interview. You’re going to hear how the podcast is doing what next month’s episode is going to be about. I’ve decided I’m going to start giving you some highlights from the show and podcast group that I have on Facebook and what’s going on there. So without further ado let’s meet Tamara mirror my name’s Tamara.

[00:03:21] I’m 27 years old. I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and I am shunned right.

[00:03:29] So then how did you become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the first place.

[00:03:33] Were you born in.

[00:03:34] Or did you come in later was born and raised Jehovah’s Witnesses gotcha.

[00:03:43] How many generations does that go back.

[00:03:48] 5 goes back five generations.

[00:03:51] Wow. Yeah. So. So you have deep roots then.

[00:03:56] Yes they do.

[00:03:58] So then I guess you know that means. So obviously your parents were born in as well.

[00:04:03] No. Mom. She. She was raised in it from the age of 3.

[00:04:13] And my dad didn’t come into it until he was later in his life around the age of 21.

[00:04:21] So then how did that come about. Do you know the story at all.

[00:04:26] With my mom and my grandmother had always been exposed to it but she didn’t get baptized until she was 19 and my mom was around three at that time with my dad. He and his parents started studying Jehovah’s Witnesses and he was living a life of extreme drugs and alcohol and he was looking for something more than that so he started studying with his parents.

[00:04:54] Gotcha. I think a lot of times people have issues in life and then they you know kind of find find Jehovah’s Witnesses and turn to that you can be just as addicted to a religion or an ideology as you can to drugs and alcohol they can kind of take over your life. Then so then you know being born and raised a Witness yourself. What was the world view that it gave you as a as a child growing up.

[00:05:30] Well I lived a very isolated life. I even lived in an isolated community. I was raised in this tiny little town that had one street on it is called Main Street. I went and had a grocery store and the other end had a home hardware. And so the school had like 300 kids and and my congregation at the Kingdom Hall only had 15 people in it.

[00:05:59] Wow that’s a book study for most people.

[00:06:03] Exactly. It was it was tiny. So in the beginning years I didn’t mind know going to school and being different because I got so much attention for it it was so praised and it was. It was a good thing. So I didn’t I didn’t start changing me. My view on how I seen the world until I got into my teens and actually realized that I was different.

[00:06:36] Gotcha. So then you say that you were praised for it. That’s kind of the I guess the opposite of a lot of people’s experiences. Why in school were you praised for what did what did people kind of admire them about. Was it that you were just being praised by your family and you know the witnesses in this small kingdom hall or were you actually getting praise at school or from your classmates or teachers. It was.

[00:07:07] It was definitely a little of both. And I was always a strong minded kid and I was just like my classmates. There was only you know a small number of us and so they. They were always.

[00:07:25] Good to me and my teachers were always you know praising me for standing up for myself and being strong minded and and stuff like that. So they were always very accommodating because like every other Jehovah’s Witness you know you don’t stand for the anthem and you don’t participate in any of the holiday celebrations. And so they were always extremely accommodating to me.

[00:07:51] Well that’s nice.

[00:07:53] Yeah and you can kind of see to Jehovah’s witnesses give their kids the I guess the opportunity to be strong and to take stands for things. I mean you kind of have to. Yeah it’s not really so optional but yeah. I guess if you’re you’re looking for qualities that the religion can give people that is you know the ability to stand out to be different. Obviously again it’s it’s not really necessarily always by choice but you know that is a positive and then of course you know later in life if a person takes a stand and uses those same qualities against the religion it’s a whole nother ballgame.

[00:08:44] Yeah. That’s what happened to me.

[00:08:46] Sure of course. So then. So it sounds like school was was pretty good.

[00:08:54] What was it like at home for you growing up in the religion was boring.

[00:09:07] It was very boring. But when I at the age that I started school would have been around 5 years old.

[00:09:14] My dad got very sick with chronic migraines which rendered him bedridden for the majority of my life at home. So we had that to deal with and and Mom had her depression to deal with. So we weren’t the family that at that period of time we weren’t always the family that made it to all the meetings or went in service my mom followed the rules to the letter of course. So our TV was in. I was raised on Little House On The Prairie and animal documentaries. Our music was you know old school music there was never any. We were never exposed to any swearing or any kind of insinuate in insinuating material of any kind. It was. It was very strict. My life revolved around just being at home school is kind of the only escape from that so it sounds like you were.

[00:10:33] I mean I can only imagine how isolating that is. You know to be isolated in a small community and then to even be isolated at school and then it sounds like at home. I mean you had very little contact with the outside world.

[00:10:48] Very little. Yes. Because there were other kids in our hall as well there was three other kids. But they were a lot younger than me too. So we didn’t get out and do things. We were always just a home. And you know the highlight of our year was when our aunts came to visit because they would take us to a movie or a sleigh ride whatever time of the year they come. They plan an adventure for us. And that was our one time De.

[00:11:19] Get out and see the world.

[00:11:21] And was it just you. As far as the children goes. Or did you. Did you have any siblings.

[00:11:27] Yeah I had a I had a younger sister. She was four years younger than me. She just passed last year.

[00:11:35] Okay. I’m sorry to hear that.

[00:11:39] That’s that’s too young.

[00:11:43] How were you treated then. So you don’t really want to just gloss all over your past that but I know that’s part of your story. So how did you know you’re at home. You’re isolated like this. It sounds like so what about at the Kingdom Hall. It sounds like you said that you weren’t super regular. Was such a small congregation. I would assume that everyone takes on maybe bigger roles when they are there for you. What did that. What did that look like.

[00:12:21] Well after after a couple years we did we did get regular at the meetings and in pretty involved in the congregation their responsibilities were a lot heavier at that point I mean you were given a talk or I was given a talk at least every second to third week and then a demonstration for every meeting. So there is a lot but there was a lot of disconnect in the congregation nobody really cared.

[00:12:53] Really. Yeah I know.

[00:12:56] How can you. That’s hard to grasp because you know it’s such a small congregation it’s like you would think that everybody cares tremendously because you know it.

[00:13:10] You would think. But all it did was generate a lot of drama because you’re so close to these people all the time when they do want to get involved in your life. It’s it’s because they want to counsel you and your shoes being too tall or being too low or your makeup or whatever it was always. They always involve themselves in the things that didn’t really matter. And then they didn’t pay attention to anything else. Like for an example my dad didn’t go to the meetings at all. He never got out of bed. But every single meeting at that point we had three meetings a week and every single meeting they’d say Oh your father’s not here. He must be sick. Well yes he has been for the last ten years. And every single meeting it was the same thing over and over again. Nobody paid attention.

[00:14:11] That is so fascinating. I think that you really summed up a lot of what it is to live in the cult just in the statement that they pay attention to the things that don’t really matter. You know like your shoes or your the length of your dress or whatever. Exactly. Yeah. But when it comes to caring about actual human beings that’s not that’s not really there because I don’t know if it were me and I knew this guy that seems to not get out of bed for 10 years and isn’t at the meeting I would be trying to help that guy you know find out what’s right. You know what can we do to help him. You would you would think that these loving quote shepherds or whatever would be out there trying to help him or in some way or help helping you or your mom or your sister because that’s just a hard situation.

[00:15:17] Well their way of helping is inviting you in service.

[00:15:21] Yes. Because that’s all that really matters.

[00:15:24] They fix everything in their heads. That’s how they were we’re helping we’ll get the kids out a house we’ll invite them in service. And that was just the extent of it. Wow.

[00:15:38] Wow. And it is interesting that even in such a small congregation people were still reflective of what you see in the larger congregation. I mean there’s a larger kingdom halls there.

[00:15:49] Clicks I guess you couldn’t have too many clicks out of 15 people but they’re quite often division. Yeah. It’s an issue that come up it would kind of divide at half every time I was usually the center of the TV.

[00:16:06] You were the only I think didn’t you say that you’re pretty much the oldest of the young people. Yes. So there you go. Yeah.

[00:16:12] You’re you’re going to be the center of everyone’s attention you’re the next the next big hope for them is that they can get you to be whatever it is you know they’re trying to mold you into. Yeah. That’s that’s a lot of pressure how did then how did things kind of. It. Let’s talk about how did you feel you know what were what were your feelings as you were going through all this. You know you kind of said that in school you kind of felt I guess maybe a little praised for things but you know otherwise you know you said that you’re kind of the center of this sometimes negative attention. How were you feeling at home and how are you feeling at school or at the Kingdom Hall.

[00:17:00] When I get into grades five six that’s when my view on everything started to change. So I I got curious about know what all the other kids were doing in the music they were listening to the sports they got to play and I wanted to experience things like all the other kids but it created a division. You know I got angry because I couldn’t do it.

[00:17:28] So my family and the congregation viewed me as rebellious. So they see you starting to go one way and they just load the pressure and expectations on you to keep you distracted.

[00:17:44] That didn’t work. I got pulled out of school. Oh really. Yeah. You say. When was this. You got pulled out. I was halfway through grade nine. Wow.

[00:17:56] And were you then. If you want to get into that yet. Is that when you when did you get baptized. How did that progress as far as you know. Because you know you’re starting to be this quote rebellious kid who wants to have a little fun.

[00:18:17] Yeah you know harmless fun and yet you know eventually you I’m sure did end up getting baptized. How did all how did that go as you went through your teenage years.

[00:18:29] Well I had no choice to get baptized. And how that word was there was an elder in our congregation at the time. And because you’re I mean it’s such a small car. You work with the same people every day in service. And so we quite often got left in the car by ourselves.

[00:18:51] Well somebody went to do a study. So I’d be stuck in the car for about an hour with this elder and he would pull out the book and he would ask me the questions and he would drill me on all the questions I’d have to answer them. And then at the end of it he would say see you know all the answers so when do you want to book the meeting to start going over the questions. And finally it just got too much and I said OK well we’ll do it. You know when do you want to do it. How old were you then 16.

[00:19:28] That’s such a good a hard line way to go about it. I mean you were truly a captive mean captive in a car getting grilled by an elder. There’s there’s not much you can do. Get away from that. You’re stuck. Yeah. That’s so. Did you feel. I don’t know I’m just trying to put myself in your shoes. I think I might have felt not only lonely but just trapped maybe even early in a car.

[00:20:03] And I’ve always been a pleaser. Yeah you know I always wanted to make people happy. Yeah.

[00:20:10] Though when people put expectations on me it was a lot of pressure because they just wanted to make them happy. So that was that was the majority of my life in. In the Kingdom Hall is just just meeting expectations all the time yeah you’re almost like a little performer.

[00:20:31] Yes. Yeah. Here’s your stage here’s your roll. Now go do it. You know that’s that’s your life. Yeah. When you were taken out of school I would imagine that must have been a huge change for you because that was your one escape. That was your one outlet. Yes.

[00:20:51] It was the kids at school they would they would bring me a change of clothes everyday.

[00:20:58] So when I got to school I could wear more modern things like everybody else saying stick out is different so much and they would bring me magazines so I could you know keep up on the celebrity drama like everybody else.

[00:21:11] So they did that for me and you know I was I was told that they were no they were going to die. And you know they were you know influenced by Satan. And I truly believed that they were good people they were good people I still I still talk to them did you know they were friendships that lasted you know up until now and you just get stuck in the middle.

[00:21:38] Yeah. I mean that’s that’s honestly a really sweet and beautiful thing that those kids were doing. That’s that’s really that’s amazing.

[00:21:49] Yeah I mean you know usually kids see another kid who’s different and they seize upon that opportunity to bully them or whatever to make themselves feel better. But here these kids were actually trying to help you. Yes. That’s why I’ve never never heard that. That’s that’s an amazing piece of the story.

[00:22:14] I was lucky to have that. Yeah but it it got taken away once once my parents found out.

[00:22:23] Yeah. So then you said that was in like the 9th grade.

[00:22:25] Yeah. Halfway through grade nine.

[00:22:28] So how old are you then like 14 ish I guess. Yeah 14. Yeah.

[00:22:37] So then you start this homeschool program. Can you tell us anything about the type of homeschool that you did.

[00:22:48] This type of home schooling should not be allowed but it was called new system school. So in order to get enrolled in this program you have to have letters signed by elders stating that you are an active part of the congregation before you can even get the curriculum.

[00:23:11] Then and then once you get it health class is the young people ask book your history class is either the Proclaimers book or the revelation book your science class is the evolution book it goes on and on.

[00:23:33] I think you mean the creation bug. Yeah. I’m just teasing. Because of course it’s not really about evolution.

[00:23:41] No that’s that’s. That would give a person a very distorted outlook of the world if that’s all that they read.

[00:23:49] Yeah. So the only class that didn’t involve the publications that were given was their math class was it.

[00:24:04] And is that just basically. Probably like a remedial math.

[00:24:08] I would assume that it’s not the high of any flexing multiplication. Yeah just basic basics.

[00:24:17] Yeah I am really surprised that that is that mutates criteria I wonder I kind of wonder how they get around that ala new I know.

[00:24:35] Yeah. It’s intense because your service time counts for credits and you’re meeting times spent at the meetings and your meeting preparation count for credits as well so your life is Jehovah’s Witness bubble.

[00:24:55] Does your ex those two that you learn about. That’s all you study. That’s all you live.

[00:25:02] I would imagine that you must have felt pretty desperate to get away from it at times because that’s just a lot of Jehovah’s Witness indoctrination. That’s just a lot.

[00:25:11] It’s a lot. But you know after two years of that just gave in to it. Yeah my only way out was to to progress to the things that you’re allowed to like. Pioneering and foreign language and that is the path they took so then did you do.

[00:25:40] Did you just pioneer. Or did you actually learn a foreign language.

[00:25:44] Yes I did. I regular pioneered and went to pioneer school. And after that I joined the Chinese congregation at the same time I was part of the sign language and Spanish courses as well.

[00:26:03] You’re a young go getter.

[00:26:06] Yeah but it was the only thing that I was allowed to excel at. Sure it was the only thing I was allowed to do that allowed me to move forward in any direction.

[00:26:18] Did you did you have to move away. I mean I would. I don’t know. I’m just picturing this little Main Street town. Like were the people with these foreign languages. Did you have to move away.

[00:26:31] Yes I did. I traveled back and forth for a while Halifax and then I just moved to Halifax and how far away did that get you from.

[00:26:46] You know where you had grown up.

[00:26:48] Now in half Yeah that’s nice.

[00:26:52] You know a little a little breathing room at least a buffer zone.

[00:26:57] Yes but that was that was the beginning of my way out.

[00:27:01] Yeah. I was working at home too so I was home schooled and pioneering and and I managed a call center from home that night.

[00:27:13] A little workaholic. Really. That’s a lot on your plate.

[00:27:18] It was but it didn’t allow me out of the bubble.

[00:27:22] Yeah you get to work outside of the home or these was this call center was it somehow witnesses. It was mostly most of the workers were witnesses.

[00:27:36] Really. Yeah. A lot of the workers or witnesses.

[00:27:40] Wow. And so I guess they all worked from home and maybe had contracts to do like phone customer service representation or something like that.

[00:27:49] Yes wow.

[00:27:52] I did not know that that existed. That’s a new one on me. Interesting. I can see the need for it. I can see why they would like that. That type of work. Yeah. So then how did things you know go from there.

[00:28:11] I when I was a small town girl and moved to tell the facts which was like the big city to me and that was that was the beginning of of my way out. At that point I met people in the congregation that you know were on their way out too and they just got involved with them and I wanted to see the world and experience things and and so I did it.

[00:28:46] So yeah you kind of like Sawyer you know a crack wall and went for it.

[00:28:53] Yes. You were in that prison cell and there was a crack and you were using a spoon to dig it out.

[00:29:02] He said How did that play out.

[00:29:06] You know I mean that that’s a pretty big events in your life. How were you influenced to do that or how did that work. You know who are these people and how they work out for you.

[00:29:19] It was.

[00:29:20] How did you even find these people. How did you even know it’s it’s hard to know how far to push it even on your own and then did you just see people who were kind of on the fringe and kind of follow them actually actually it was it was an accident.

[00:29:38] Actually was kind of a traumatic experience it was. It was an accident but I had gotten a roommate at that point another another young girl in the congregation and she liked this this young man in the hall and so of course the rules are you never go there by yourself. He invited her over for a movie night so she brought me along and he ended up drugging our drinks and. Pretty much rendered unconscious. We woke up with cigarette burns on parts of our bodies that we should not have had them. And so what we did was we kept quiet for a little while about it but then we found out that it was happening to two other girls in other congregations by the same person.

[00:30:34] So we took took pictures. I mean they I mean the burns were bad enough we ended up in the hospital and so we had taken pictures you know very discrete pictures we went for an elders meeting and they told us that the pictures weren’t enough evidence. You know it could be anybody. So they needed us to show them the physical evidence which neither one of us would do. So nothing was done. He was promptly flown out to live in. I think he went to Las Vegas actually his family flown him to Las Vegas and he’s he’s never come back.

[00:31:19] So they literally so they literally had no Jehovah’s Witnesses like to like to go by this two witness rule where there has to be two witnesses to any of these types of events two. Yes give them any validity. Right. They literally have two witnesses and photographic evidence. And they just kind of tell you to piss off. Yeah that is horrifying.

[00:31:53] Yeah it was awful. I am so sorry that you had to go through that. That that is sickening.

[00:32:02] It’s not only violating enough this monster did but then to sit in a room full of three monsters.

[00:32:13] Yes. Yes definitely. And it was a touchy subject. Yeah.

[00:32:18] And so you have someone saying well just show us what he did. Well we can’t. Like we’re not going to do that for you. Like here’s the pictures.

[00:32:27] Yeah. Is that the fact that they would even ask you to do that. That is is quite frankly rather predatory behavior itself. That’s horrific. I my mind is blown. That is awful. I mean I know.

[00:32:46] You know I hear stories but I’ve never.

[00:32:51] I don’t think I’ve ever had them ask you to you know show that kind of evidence. Yeah that’s might be a new one on me I’m sure.

[00:33:01] I’m sure there’s somebody who is going to listen. He was like Oh yeah. That happens all the time and probably knows a lot of examples.

[00:33:07] But they call themselves Jehovah’s organization and they’re directed by God. What. That’s that’s horrifying. So then how did how did you go on from that. I mean that’s where did that take you.

[00:33:25] You know after something like that Welsh very shortly after that happened we had another friend a very close friend and he was quite obviously gay. But he had never acted on it but it was bothering him.

[00:33:45] We know of course the rules are you know if something is wrong then you go to the elders and tell the elders and they’ll help you he went to the elders in and told them that you know he believed that he was gay. Yeah. And acted on it. But you know this is who he was. And they immediately disfellowshipped him really.

[00:34:08] Yeah.

[00:34:09] Just for the thought and not the action.

[00:34:13] Yes

[00:34:14] I’m the elders in the congregation at that time didn’t understand. And there were after that had happened. He wasn’t reinstated but there were a lot of elders meetings on the island teaching them how to better deal with those situations.

[00:34:33] But

[00:34:33] it didn’t help him any. It didn’t help him any and so he tried to commit suicide after he was disfellowshipped. So we found him and we we took him in and he lived with us.

[00:34:48] But

[00:34:48] he was disfellowshipped so we we got the scholarship to because we weren’t going to back down at that point we had already been no nobody was there to help us.

[00:35:08] We were you know pretty much slapped in the face with our elders meeting you know not long before that. And then this young man was treated so unfairly that we just put our foot down and we’re like No so.

[00:35:22] So the guy who’s drugging and raping women all right.

[00:35:29] Yeah you know that. We’re going to let him roam free in the organization.

[00:35:33] The guy that has homosexual thoughts. We’re going to this fellowship him then the two girls who were violated by this first guy who are kind hearted sweet gentle people and take in this guy who has tried to commit suicide to help him. You know these these shepherds the undermining your efforts and fellow shipping you so you’ll be shunned to and then all the while you know it’s really you all where the shepherds you all were the ones who were caring for someone or something that’s it’s just it’s really you know when you get to the the core of what the organization is and the power that is wielded by these men in these positions. It’s it’s really frightening and it’s and it’s really just a disgusting display of what humans can do when they’re given too much power.

[00:36:42] Yes. Yes I am I am.

[00:36:47] I am sorry that that’s though the way it went for everyone involved there. That’s just terrible so may I ask whatever happened to this guy. If you can say I mean I know it’s not his story but yeah I believe that he did get reinstated.

[00:37:06] And if I’m correct it it happened a couple of times.

[00:37:10] I’m he said he suffered from some mental illness and his family was everything. He was very very close with his family it was everything to him so when he lost it he couldn’t deal with it or so he he keeps going back and keeps going back.

[00:37:31] Yeah I imagine that’s much of that mental illness is brought on by the fact that he’s being so inauthentic he’s not if he’s gay then great you know be that. But he’s trying to suppress who he is and he’s trying to be somebody he’s not. Yes to keep family and that will cause mental illness. Yeah. Wow.

[00:37:52] Well you know. Back to you. You know and I guess you know this. There was this other girl as well. How did you all how did life progressed for you all. You know from there.

[00:38:04] Well I haven’t I haven’t been in contact with her since then though I have I have creature Facebook and she had been dating somebody and during that time and they’ve gotten married and and her her life looks good. She she’s living a good life the way that she wanted to.

[00:38:25] She’s still a witness do you think or.

[00:38:26] No she’s not. You go into her parents at an assembly a couple years ago two years ago in I’m glad she found freedom and an authentic life.

[00:38:38] So then that leaves you. So where did you go from there.

[00:38:44] Disfellowshipped and my parents gave me. I believe it was something like a week to find a place to live. And I answered to a newspaper an article somebody had posted that they were looking for a roommate. Ended up in a very bad situation it turned out to be a crack house.

[00:39:10] So I know I have no outside world experience whatsoever but what I’m dealing with so I I took off I grabbed a bus and I ended up in Halifax back in Halifax as the first bus that was leaving that’s where it took me and I called my dad.

[00:39:36] At that point and and I told him you know I’m I’m sitting in front of McDonald’s where I am I slept on the sidewalk beside McDonald’s for a couple of days because they gave out free coffee in the morning so yeah I called him and.

[00:39:54] I know I’m crying.

[00:39:56] And I tell him you know where I am and what’s happened and I said I just I need to come home. I need somewhere safe to sleep I need to get back on my feet I’ll do anything you know with this going on bag and you know I’ll go to all the meetings and you know I’ll I’ll do it all. And his response to me was You can’t come home until the elders tell me that you can come home so you need to call them.

[00:40:22] And he gave me a list of phone numbers well I called them unlike you you have to tell him that I can come home.

[00:40:35] I’ll go to the meetings I’ll do whatever and they say no you’re just in a desperate situation and you’re just saying what you need to do you’re not really sorry. I’m like yes obviously I mean you should go home.

[00:40:50] But no no. That didn’t work.

[00:40:54] Was your dad an Elder.

[00:40:56] Yes. So he was worried about his position.

[00:41:00] He had gotten better at that point just as I had gotten disfellowshipped. Have my dad had a boat for years. Well where he had a break from his migraines. So he quickly became an Elder and pioneered and got extremely extremely faithful so he left me there.

[00:41:29] It’s really hard to hear the. I mean I’m sure it’s even harder to live the abandonment you know by these these people that you know you think are your your loved ones are supposed shepherds in the congregation who are supposed to love you and care for you. And you know it’s just time after time when you’ve needed any of these people. They just abandoned you and that’s that’s just that’s horror horrifying. So you know your guess at this point your Where does that leave you. You’re just homeless in Halifax.

[00:42:11] Is that it. Well I found I found a boyfriend I guess and I found a guy that I liked and he.

[00:42:21] He immediately offered for me to move in with him.

[00:42:24] And I’m not a smart idea but that’s what I did. And he’s the father of my children. And and I stayed with him for for a number of for a number of years.

[00:42:40] What was that like. I mean you said it was not a smart idea. Was it a bad relationship or.

[00:42:46] Yeah I was in it. It was an extremely abusive relationship.

[00:42:54] But I was the the way Jehovah’s Witnesses raise you as you make it work. You figure out how to make it work. You just don’t give up on relationships. You fix it. So I tried to fix it.

[00:43:16] It didn’t it didn’t work.

[00:43:19] Yeah you know they teach you they give these examples many of which are probably fake of you know people their spouse over without a word through their conduct their fine conduct especially as a woman. Yes that’s how it’s portrayed. Essentially if your husband’s beating you just be a fine example of a Christian. Jehovah’s Witness wife and you know magically you know 20 years later he might change. It’s really such a bleak outlook. And I think that you know a point you made it touches on just the fact you know Jehovah’s Witnesses teach you just kind of to grin and bear it. And I think that that’s what you were doing your whole life. And what most of us probably did as young witnesses we didn’t have a choice. We were just grinning and bearing it. We were doing what was expected of us and doing what we could to survive.

[00:44:24] So so that pattern just plays out there was there was a period of time where you know of course I missed my family.

[00:44:35] So this this man that I was with he he started his death actually started studying and we we went to the meetings just so that because when they see me making an effort they would have minimal amount of contact with me.

[00:44:51] Of course the contact was usually just two to lecture me on how I could be a better housewife but still contact. I mean it didn’t last very long.

[00:45:04] It lasted a couple of months but we did.

[00:45:09] We did do that for a little while and of course then everybody had hope. You know it’s going to convert him and and everything was going to be great. They were going to help fix them and. Then they knew what was happening in the home. But you know Jehovah was gonna fix that once once again.

[00:45:32] It’s not like they were going to call an outside organization and say come help this person or her children who are living in an abusive environment.

[00:45:45] No at average at every chance Jehovah’s Witnesses have they fail to actually help a human being. Yeah it’s it’s so mindblowing how they how they do that.

[00:46:03] So this was all this was all before I had the girls too. I left him. I left him just a couple months after I had my first daughter.

[00:46:13] Oh OK. I got reinstated at that point. Really. Yes.

[00:46:24] How. What was that process like. As far as you know going through the reinstatement process. Did you just you know tell them you were sorry. Like the prodigal son and they accepted you back immediately.

[00:46:37] Yeah. You fake it till you make it.

[00:46:40] Right. Well I I had a young I had a baby girl and I was pregnant with it with another one and I had left. This man and he was the only person I had in my life and I didn’t have my family I had him and that was it. There was nobody else I. He didn’t allow me to to leave that bubble either. Yeah I left him there was nobody. And I was like well I need my family. So I went to my doctor my doctor is like well what do you what do you need. What do you need me to do. And I said I need my family. So he actually wrote a prescription to the elders that I needed family contact for my mental health he did do that for me good for whom he got pretty good at it and it worked.

[00:47:33] Wow really day by day they did that. Yeah.

[00:47:40] I mean they I mean I couldn’t go out and go for supper with my family and whatnot but my mom could come over and help me out and stuff like that. So the reinstatement process was really just faking it.

[00:47:56] I have sent in my letter for reinstatement after three months and did the the interview that they do where they ask you a million questions that don’t need to like. I suffered from a serious drug addiction during those years and it was in later years where you were with this man or during the years after him.

[00:48:26] Yes I know that the years I was with him. OK. And then when I got pregnant with my daughter I I got I got clean at that point.

[00:48:33] So then you have you. You were kind of escaping probably through that.

[00:48:39] Yes. That was just it just you didn’t think about it. You were just numb.

[00:48:43] Oh yeah of course. I mean you know you’ve been trapped your whole life you know you do anything you can to get out.

[00:48:51] So they ask you questions like drugs. Did you do. And how much of it did you do. Well don’t know.

[00:49:03] I just took whatever was available like how many partners did you have in the trust. All these questions. This just make no sense. And so I just I just kept telling them like I don’t know the answers to your questions.

[00:49:23] There’s no one answer.

[00:49:26] It’s not like you were keeping a log you know just in case the elders need this later. I’m going to keep a log. Everything that I do so that they can have control complete control over me later.

[00:49:41] So I mean I guess I mean they were satisfied enough with with the efforts that I had made in the three month period and they they said they would reinstate me but they lost my records. So it took an additional three months to reinstate me.

[00:50:04] Well that’s interesting. I wonder if they really lost your records. I know because I’ve never heard of anybody getting things that I was thinking the same thing. Yeah I’ve never heard of anybody getting reinstated after just three months. I mean usually it’s a minimum six month process.

[00:50:21] Well I was trying. I was trying to get in before I had the baby so that my family could help me out. I’m actually one of the elders meetings I had I was in labor the elders meeting one of the last ones I had. Why.

[00:50:41] Well I was in labor. I delivered a baby about three hours after that elders meeting I don’t even know what to say to that.

[00:50:51] I was like you better reinstate me because this is some serious effort that’s right here.

[00:50:57] I can only imagine the stress that you were under too. Yeah probably what induced it really. Noses.

[00:51:04] Yeah that could absolutely be an so when did you get reinstated.

[00:51:12] Was it after the baby was born.

[00:51:14] Yes. Just after my dad. After the elders meeting my dad drove me to the hospital drop me off at the doors. Have a nice night.

[00:51:26] I’ll see you in the morning I went in there by myself.

[00:51:34] It felt really bad. Yes I do too. That’s horrible.

[00:51:39] I mean they’re just so they’re so inhuman. It’s awful. Yeah it makes me think of I’m blanking. Was itD.J. some somebody that I interviewed who wanted to get reinstated essentially because he had a friend who his best friend was getting married. And of course I don’t think that that worked out. It’s like they they know that there’s some event coming up and somehow you never quite get reinstated and it’s now ever. Now they have to punish you that one last time. They have to stick it to you in some way so they can get their power trip. So then you’re here. You give birth to your second child. You said you were reinstated not long after that.

[00:52:45] So maybe a month a week.

[00:52:48] So then where where did that take you in life after that. Where did Where do you go.

[00:52:55] I was reinstated probably a period of two months before I left again. Directly after my reinstatement which wasn’t that long ago my mom and sister were diagnosed in the same week with two different very aggressive cancers so they needed to.

[00:53:26] They needed to move to be closer to their treatments. And I didn’t have a car. No. Doesn’t even sell diapers like we’re a small community here. So I needed to move somewhere where I’d have help and I couldn’t move with them because that’s where my children’s father lives and he doesn’t. He doesn’t know where I am. They couldn’t risk and finding out. So my my family moved. I moved.

[00:54:00] Forty five minutes away from them.

[00:54:04] All right. And so then you move into this new place.

[00:54:08] And I stopped going to meetings. Nice reading.

[00:54:11] Gotcha. So you were kind of fading or trying to get my chance to get out.

[00:54:17] Yeah. This is my chance.

[00:54:20] Sure. So then how did things progress with the fade or with your you know your family.

[00:54:26] I mean that’s. This seems like the hits just keep coming. You know now your sister and your mom are diagnosed with cancer. How how did all this progressed I mean your search for freedom in this new place and then yet you have this family that you love that is going through these hard times.

[00:54:47] They were too distracted to be too bothered my change in my choice on how to raise my children and live my life and what was that what was that change or what was you know what if they were paying attention I mean what were you what was the change what were you doing differently you know in this new place I am.

[00:55:15] I severed all contact with any any Jehovah’s Witnesses and I started looking into childcare I wanted to get a job and go to school and I got in trouble with that with my father a little later on. After things settled but I started celebrating holidays for the first time this has been my first year actually. Actually really celebrating any holidays and awesome. Congratulations. Yeah it’s been exciting. Yeah yeah. So the only thing they realized or noticed was that I wasn’t going to the meetings but um they were so distracted with what was going on that they just let it go for a little while until things got to the end for them with the hospital stays and stuff.

[00:56:10] And that’s when I was obviously pretty disconnected from the family. But they kind of put their foot down with me. Tyler had it for a little while but.

[00:56:25] They. So first of all I have to go back to something that’s sticking in my mind so your dad got on you later on for him for wanting to go to school and get a job and such like. How were you supposed to support these kids. I mean what what else were you supposed to do.

[00:56:46] What was the alternative. I’m supposed to go to meetings and find a brother to to support me.

[00:56:54] OK. Right.

[00:56:56] Yeah. That’s what I’m supposed to do.

[00:56:59] Well I mean that’s not even that’s not immediate. You have to support yourself somehow. You gotta eat. That’s that’s no. It just has such an unrealistic view of life. So then you said you know getting back to your family. So you said that they kind of shut you out or whatever. What did they do they you know kind of see your face and start shunning you. Or did they just limit contact or you know what happened. Because I mean you weren’t disfellowshipped. Yeah it was a little.

[00:57:37] With Mom it was obvious.

[00:57:41] You know my dad when I was in the hospital my sister was third there.

[00:57:52] It’s easier with my sister. She was the first to pass. She she passed last May. So I stayed at the hospital with her and nobody offered me a drive.

[00:58:07] You know I lived an hour away. Nobody out asked me where the kids were if I needed help with the kids. When it came to nighttime nobody offered me a bed to sleep in at the hospital to find somewhere else to go.

[00:58:25] And pretty much look after myself.

[00:58:31] And again you’re not disfellowshipped. No I mean not that even being this fellowship is an excuse for you know that kind of type of behavior and treatment of another human being especially in such a time of grief and no concern. There is no excuse for that but um but you know even Jehovah’s Witnesses who might do that.

[00:58:56] If someone was disfellowshipped you’re not disfellowshipped and they are using your new life or whatever to treat you so badly.

[00:59:09] And this time one of my one of my older friends I’m she was one of the girls in our congregation that I grew up. She’s a few years younger than me and she lived close to the hospital so she offered for me to be able to stay with her since nobody would let me stay at the hospital. OK.

[00:59:30] So after a night her family convinced her that you know I was worldly and I got kicked out on the street in the middle of the night.

[00:59:39] I believe it was around eleven thirty at night just threw you out. They just threw me out. Where where were your kids during all this. Actually my cousin. I have them. OK. Yeah. OK.

[00:59:56] My cousin had them for taking care of them for the week that I was there and I had to call you know I didn’t really know this person really well at this point.

[01:00:09] I had met her a couple of times and I called her up in the middle of the night and I told her what had happened and she said Give me 15 minutes and you’re gonna stay with me. And I hadn’t eaten nobody was offering me any food. I had no money. She took me out and got me a hot meal and took me in for the last couple of days of all of that good for her for being here.

[01:00:37] Yeah. Yeah.

[01:00:41] So then this was it. You said the last couple of days was. Was this the wine down of your sisters battle with cancer.

[01:00:49] Yes. Yes. She stayed there until until she passed. There was an overwhelming amount of people I have never witnessed such a level of disrespect. My life as was demonstrated. All those Jehovah’s Witnesses at the time we were on the palliative care unit. So there’s like a kitchen and there’s two family rooms and you know there’s about 10 other rooms with people and their families that they’re passing when my sister was up there there was at least 30 to 40 people at any given time. They just took over the whole floor you know all the other families had nowhere to sit. They know where to put their food in the kitchen. They had their kids running everywhere. Just this massive amount of noise and melodies being sung all of the time.

[01:01:54] Oh my God.

[01:01:58] It was of course I’m the worldly one and my aunt who is there with me she she was an inactive witness either.

[01:02:11] So we spent the majority of our time you know down the hallway there’s there’s so jealous what is there so tone deaf to other human beings to social norms.

[01:02:26] They’re so narcissistic they just think they can’t them that other people wouldn’t like them taking over a whole floor and saying Jehovah’s praises Three Kingdoms songs you know while other human beings are dying with their family trying to have their last moments their way.

[01:02:50] Yeah that’s it as it was it was a sad thing too to be witness to you know I spent a good majority of my time apologizing to their families you know because I am you know finding a little corner to sit in down the hallway because there’s no room for me either you know I’m just you know this is my sister that’s in there and I feel like I I need to apologize for them for this.

[01:03:22] Yeah no I understand that. Just as an aside I remember when I when I was a witness for a lot of my life. We didn’t have to travel to conventions because they were held in our city. But at a point we we started having to travel and I actually stopped staying at any of the approved hotels that were on the lists because I couldn’t stand the behavior of Jehovah’s Witnesses the hotels.

[01:03:49] I was so sickened by it that I would just go get my own hotel somewhere else and not be around any of them. They just they have no idea you know how they pump themselves up in their assemblies and conventions as to how you know how everyone wishes basically they could be like that. This isn’t their behavior but it’s not true. It’s it’s it’s completely fabricated. Their behavior is is deplorable. So yeah I I can only imagine you know here I am talking about my experience at a convention. I can only imagine I’m just so sorry that you know in this time I have to apologize for the behavior of these people during such a serious and no one time moment and everybody is there because they’re nosy.

[01:04:46] Of course there is no. It’s the place to be sitting around joking laughing and it’s happy go lucky.

[01:04:56] They’re so respectful. It is. It is.

[01:05:00] And they have to put on the facade that look. Jehovah’s people are so happy. Even the face in the face of such tragedy. Because you know we have this hope. Please tell me that they weren’t preaching to the other people who were there.

[01:05:23] Not that I noticed. OK. I just I can just I mean they’re just so tone deaf.

[01:05:29] I mean I know that they they look up like certificate you know like they’ll see like obituaries and and they’ll send people stuff it’s just so horrifying. I just I just hope that they weren’t doing anything like that they’re in the palliative care unit. I mean I’m sorry I’m so sorry that it put DVDs and just about every family room and kitchen where they did it. Oh. So then how did things.

[01:06:06] How did things go. You know I mean obviously you know we we know how this story ends. Yes. For your sister. But how how does that you know transpire how we’re you know it seems like you weren’t treated very well leading up to it. How were you treated as that was going down or is as you know afterward.

[01:06:27] How did they treat you so fake like after my sister passed they cared for all about 15 minutes. Maybe not even that. I went in to say goodbye to my sister because it was it was time the nurses said but I didn’t make it back down the hallway in time. She had passed by the time I walked into the room so I was in shock and I come out of the room and I just kind of laid down on the floor. I just couldn’t breathe. So everybody is is pulling on me. I’m not the type person that likes to be touched. I don’t do physical contact and they’re all choking me they’re pulling on my clothes and you know. Are you OK. They’re asking me over and over again and they reach up to this crowd of people and I grab onto my aunt’s hand and that’s when she knew it was time to step in. My aunt is the most easygoing person you will ever meet in your life. Just go with the flow. Quiet chilled out person. She went into full on Hulk mode. Witnesses fly in every direction down the hallway and then they didn’t care. I never heard from another one again. Not a message. Not a not a visit not a phone call not nothing.

[01:07:59] You see them at the memorial or whatever.

[01:08:03] I didn’t. I had completely stopped everything. You know Bubba. Two months before she passed. So I never I never was in a situation to encounter them again at the elders.

[01:08:17] Up

[01:08:17] until that point we’re trying to call on me visit me but I never seen or heard of them again after my sister.

[01:08:31] When

[01:08:31] I said memorial I didn’t mean the memorial that they all energies I’m so I’m at the memorial of your sister. Oh

[01:08:38] my goodness. That was that was that was wild. Yeah I seen them. At the service. I I waited outside until just before it started and there was zero emotional connection whatsoever. I mean they use it. They use the service not to remember the person but to recruit people. It’s a sales pitch. Who is the big recruitment right did it. Everybody was high as kites self medicated on whatever it was. It was a mess. Although all the witnesses were high on their prescriptions and just making a scene.

[01:09:29] It was.

[01:09:31] There is a lot of prescription abuse.

[01:09:35] Oh

[01:09:36] it was.

[01:09:37] It

[01:09:37] was a scene I mean what kind of scene what do you know where they just.

[01:09:44] Well

[01:09:44] besides the over overdramatic grieving very loud and you know they’re walking around talking to people and they’re just no one. One lady came up to my aunt and she’s so high and she’s like touching her hair and she’s like Oh your hair is so soft and like she’s walking around doing this to everybody.

[01:10:15] Hi I’m if we couldn’t get out of there fast enough.

[01:10:20] So.

[01:10:21] So you did at least OK so it was not what you would have wanted. No but you at least got to say goodbye I guess.

[01:10:35] Yes I did get to attend my sister’s burial. OK. I got cut off more with mom. As things progressed with me. I was I was cut off a lot more with my sister. I did have a little more leeway.

[01:10:56] OK. All right. So then how did how long after you because your mom and your sister were diagnosed at roughly the same time correct.

[01:11:08] Yeah. You were diagnosed just three days apart.

[01:11:11] OK. So then how did things how did things transpire after this went down with your sister.

[01:11:24] Well my sister passed and me and my mom passed in January and this is of what year last year May of last year May of last year and then January of this year.

[01:11:38] Yes. Wow this is so fresh. Yes. OK.

[01:11:45] So after my sister passed my mom the same depression she did when when we were kids just living for paradise.

[01:12:00] Spiral she lived on repeat again.

[01:12:05] When. When dad was sick. My mom everyday would say we just have to make it to tomorrow. Cause the Paradise might be here tomorrow right. And that’s how she lived her life that’s how we all.

[01:12:19] That’s how we all lived it. And so when my sister passed she she went back to that again where she just didn’t care about anything else on the outside world. You just have to make it to tomorrow. Because Will the paradise.

[01:12:37] We’ll be here. He was hoping that for herself as well. You know with her candidate.

[01:12:43] Yeah yeah.

[01:12:46] But then she. Then there was a lot of pressure on me.

[01:12:51] Of course you know when my sister was passing and I went into to see her the last day. You know she.

[01:12:58] She grabs my hand and she says you know promise me you’ll be in the new system. Promise me you’ll be there too.

[01:13:07] Because she knows that I am not participating.

[01:13:11] So mom grabbed on to that there is a lot there’s quite a bit of pressure for a little while until she got distracted again.

[01:13:26] Senior elders at one point after that after my sister passed I made some friends in the community here which was big for me I’d never had friends before. And after she passed I mean I hadn’t paid my bills I had done my taxes I had and I just dropped everything and do any of the things they needed to. So one friend stopped in and helped me get that done and another friend showed up with a carload full of groceries and to help me out. And well they are here. The elders knock on my door and and not to ask me if I’m okay or if I need anything but to simply ask me if they’re able to reach me on my cell phone.

[01:14:11] How else could they get a hold of me if there was ever you know a natural disaster or something. Where would I go and what phone numbers could they use to track me down.

[01:14:24] This was not the time and shut it down.

[01:14:26] But that’s when I really realized I had made the right decision.

[01:14:39] Yeah I mean you’re you’re in a house with people Carrie what about you for the first time. Yes.

[01:14:48] Yeah. Who truly care yes. I think I know I’ve I’ve had many of those moments since leaving as well. The stuff we were told about the people on the outside is just not necessarily true at all.

[01:15:03] And I’m I mean it’s amazing to see the difference.

[01:15:11] What real love looks like and the conditional fake for a parent’s love that we grew up with.

[01:15:24] So then how did things go from there.

[01:15:29] I mean you’ve got these friends who are helping you now but your mom is still sick and yet probably expecting you to be this witness.

[01:15:47] They were distracted. They they got extremely faithful because know and I would never I never wanted to take that away from them because this hope of paradises is what got them through. It’s what made Mom not scared. It made her OK. Sure. So that’s one. One good thing it I didn’t share that that hope or belief but it made her OK. But they got so distracted in their own life and the they were tired of seeing the decisions that I was making.

[01:16:29] So you know they they would come in and visit the kids sometimes or we would talk a little bit but they knew what was going on.

[01:16:42] They didn’t ask questions there isn’t a whole lot to talk about. It was. It was tricky.

[01:16:47] It was a tricky situation. I think I think mostly the elders maybe they left me alone because they didn’t want to disfellowshipped me. Well my mom was alive.

[01:17:03] OK.

[01:17:06] It was obvious you know people accidentally tag you and things on Facebook. So yeah it’s hard at all party hall over Facebook you know.

[01:17:18] Yeah somebody on tag me quick so they they seem based they seen what was going on. Dad didn’t really put his foot down with me until mom was in the hospital. When my sister passed I had decided I had so much regret.

[01:17:47] For not standing up for my right to be part of the family. This is my sister. This is my time to grieve. I have rights and I didn’t stand up for them. I let them all be taken away. I had a lot of regret over that no I should’ve just stood up and told people to go home. But I didn’t. Because I felt you know small guy had you know my life choice maybe less than I guess I viewed myself at that point.

[01:18:21] And then they make you feel small your whole life. Yeah you’re not supposed to even fight. You don’t follow your heart don’t lean on your own understanding. Yeah it’s a group think type thing. So you had no chance and when there.

[01:18:35] Yeah. When there’s 35 and 40 of them and just one to me I just didn’t stand up from you and you knew that you’re you know had you stood up and told them that.

[01:18:47] Let’s say you did solemn to leave.

[01:18:48] I mean you’re your sister and your mom and your dad would have disagreed with you. So you know you were voiceless and powerless in that situation.

[01:18:58] Yeah.

[01:18:59] Yeah during that time I got more determined and more confident in my choices. And I told myself that not this time not this time.

[01:19:15] Well I guess I just walked over this. This is my right now I’m gonna stand up for myself and and I did real good for about three days. Treatment was even worse this time.

[01:19:32] You know they I didn’t allow so many people to be there so there was a group of about people you know they all brought in food and eat it in front of you and you know you were allowed to eat any of it and when the doctors came out to give they would take me aside and give me updates because I was a little more emotionally stable at that point for them to give me more information. Sure.

[01:20:01] They came to me quite a bit so I would come over to update people and they would put their hand up and say No I’m sorry I don’t want to speak to you I’ll wait for your father to update us. Yeah. I was traveling back and forth every day on the bus on Metro Transit because I had come back to look after my girls because my cousin they had a job to work in the morning so somebody had to be with the kids in the early morning hours.

[01:20:27] And then when they got back I’d catch the bus back in no of course nobody’s going to offer to pick you up from the bus station and you can nobody’s going to offer to you know where your kids and nobody cared of course there is no bed yet again for me to sleep in so my aunts they kindly arranged for me to stay in a hotel because I stayed two nights two nights. I didn’t have to travel back. So they put me up because nobody gave me a bed to sleep in a bottle.

[01:21:02] So because I was talking to the doctors. Like when I would see them come out I would go and find them and say OK update me. And so they started reading me scriptures about being obedient to your parents they felt I was overstepping my father I’m not letting him take the lead.

[01:21:30] How did you not stab. Oh I want him. That’s my eyes did I. My answers. Yeah. Shooting daggers. Oh my God. It is here it is. It’s overcast so insane.

[01:21:48] It was bad and nobody would let me be in the room alone with mom oh somebody would always follow me and nobody would leave me alone with her.

[01:21:56] What were you going to do like convince her to leave. Quote The truth at the end or something. I mean they’re so weak.

[01:22:07] Well I don’t know. But no they wouldn’t.

[01:22:11] One of the one of the regular pioneers actually that was there that wouldn’t leave because she self entitled herself is my mother’s best friend which my mom told me everything. I knew that that was true but. I wrote my mother song. Like my mom went into the hospital she because it was her wish to be medicated and unaware of what was going on. She was in a state of unconscious fruit for the whole time. But this regular pioneer sister wrote her a song. She does. She can’t sing and she also is not musically inclined but she wrote my mom a song can you. Can you guess what what song is you. She wrote it to she stripped the lyrics and put her own lyrics on this on this song. Oh I.

[01:23:07] I could.

[01:23:09] I have no idea.

[01:23:12] Use the National Anthem. What. I’m not lying.

[01:23:17] She used and this is the Canadian national anthem correct.

[01:23:21] Yeah so. Oh Canada. Yes. She she wrote my mom.

[01:23:33] There could be a way.

[01:23:37] I’ve never experience anything. So obviously at this point I’m obviously upset with how I’m being treated. You know I’m left you can’t be alone mom. And then I’m left to sit in a room by myself until it’s time to go home. It is just people are reading me scriptures and my dad obviously sees my irritation and so he takes me aside. What’s your problem. So I tell him No I’m fed up with this. You know people are are blatantly you know disrespecting me in this situation. And then I go on to explain the things that have incited diamond. He just looked me right in the face and he said you know that you’re treated this way because you are worldly.

[01:24:44] And if I was to ask anybody to go home it would be you I just broke down and that’s when I gave up my fight to stand up for my rights. For that that split second I gave up sure what we’re fighting for at that point I was I was fighting.

[01:25:12] You know look I promised myself that I was going to stand up and be strong and stick up for myself. And I did that with Mom. Up until that point you know go ahead and read me your scriptures. But you know I’m not No I didn’t stand down if I want to go in and see my mom when I want to see my mom I’m gonna do it. And you know I I was I fought for my rights.

[01:25:38] When my dad said that gave up more of course. I mean what’s left.

[01:25:47] You know I think that there is nothing. There is nothing left.

[01:25:52] Yeah. He just took the air out of the room there. I mean there’s are you going to take in your own.

[01:25:59] Yeah in a vacuum.

[01:26:01] As God it broke me that that one sends you know I just I couldn’t wrap my brain around it to justify this level of cruelty because I’ve been labeled as as worldly just no.

[01:26:25] You know maybe in your eyes I am but I’m still her daughter I’m still a child and you’re still his daughter. Yeah you know. Yeah.

[01:26:41] Either I don’t even know what to say to that that’s just there. They’re just it’s just mind blowing how the basic humanity you know even animals no talk about you know you talk about being like a mama bear or something like you know.

[01:27:03] You know ladies we’ll talk about that you know.

[01:27:08] Certainly there are animals who eat their young. You can’t say all animals are great parents. I’m not going to anthropomorphize them but certainly.

[01:27:21] Yeah.

[01:27:22] You expect more from human parents. Yeah. And. Have a right to expect more.

[01:27:34] That level of I just don’t see it coming. I didn’t know if you don’t want to really talk to me. No that’s okay.

[01:27:45] But to just me to go home so dehumanizing.

[01:27:51] Yeah then then then mom passed away the next night now we’re you there for that or had you know just that when you when you say you gave up you just you just left.

[01:28:04] I went home and I turned my phone off.

[01:28:09] Oh no.

[01:28:12] The doctor said that they would call me if I needed to come during the night and of course my cousin if I woke them up at 2 o’clock in the morning and said Take me. I mean they would have done it.

[01:28:22] Sure. I went home and turned my phone off and I can’t say I can’t say I blame you.

[01:28:32] I mean that so my dad decided to talk to me.

[01:28:38] After that he called me the next morning after mom passed he said and get her stuff I’m going to give it away and of course how long.

[01:28:56] How old is he now at the door with their hands out right.

[01:29:00] Yeah. So how long.

[01:29:02] Well after was this 16 hours.

[01:29:08] He’s ready to get rid of all her stuff and the witnesses are there with their hands out.

[01:29:13] That’s what happened with my sister when she passed her husband was ready the next morning. We packed up her stuff really brought it all back to my house.

[01:29:23] Every bit of it I mean I’m after mom passed I mean I’m dealing with people’s toothbrushes and underwear.

[01:29:30] They packed it all up and put it in my living room they can treat me this way.

[01:29:41] But when they need me to marry strong one into me to get stuff done and just give it to her.

[01:29:48] So he called me up the next morning and said come get it. So I drove in there and packed it all up and brought it here. I didn’t live here stay with my cousin for a week. Because there is no room for me to live here.

[01:30:07] Until I could get it stored away and sorted and worded and all that Jehovah’s Witness is a really good at contacting you when they need you for something. If you’re a person who can get anything done at all. Yeah they they they see you. That’s the one time in life they see you they see who is that guy or that girl can get stuff done they have money or they have a business and they can hire or whatever and like a true narcissist it’s all about them and what they need.

[01:30:47] And so boom they’re drawn to you like a magnet.

[01:30:50] Yes wow.

[01:30:54] So what did you do from there. I mean how did things go with your relationship with your dad and I mean it was that just a header.

[01:31:05] Well couple weeks after I called up my dad and nobody else was answering their phone and so I was excited because the daycare has or the child care had gone through for me to actually start going to work in six months time everything’s set up it’s ready to go I’m going to. So I was excited. Nice. I am considering all the crap that’s happened. You know I finally had a happy moment. And so I called my dad and I was like you know things are good and they just I just wanted to tell you that things. Things are good. And I got a huge lecture on how I’m killing his grandchildren and I need to go to the meetings because a brother will marry me. Take care of me and that’s what’s most important. Had very little contact after that.

[01:32:13] With my own family. There was kind of a.

[01:32:20] A car driving by my own family.

[01:32:29] There was this where there really wasn’t much to say anymore than it was before my wife and I had ever disassociated. It was even before. I think we had seen my disfellowshipped brother and made that choice and took that stand. I think that could kind of tell that we just weren’t really into it anymore we weren’t into the whole Witness thing. We were we were pulling away and they just there was just nothing to talk about anymore like it. That’s all they have. So they don’t care about anyone or anything beyond that beyond what they’re doing at the Kingdom Hall or whatever. So there’s just there’s just nothing to say it’s just done it died became so obsessed.

[01:33:30] Yeah because of his hope he’s going to see them again.

[01:33:35] So he needs to be faithful as you know he needs to follow the rules right to the letter and just be there.

[01:33:48] It just gave nothing else to talk about like you said so then what have you done that would have been mean.

[01:33:57] So you set goals. Yeah a couple months ago. Wow. So what has transpired in these last few months. How is Ben.

[01:34:13] Well there’s been a lot of therapy involved.

[01:34:15] Good for you. Therapy is very important.

[01:34:19] Yeah it has been it has been but I recently found out that dad buried mom a couple of weeks ago.

[01:34:33] Never told me now yeah I guess I didn’t even think about that.

[01:34:39] So did you. That’s horrific. Did you go to a memorial for it.

[01:34:45] Or were you even told about it or anything.

[01:34:47] I went to the service you dig into the service for your mom. I did go to the service. Oh yeah. And I’m golf more as. It was the same thing very impersonal with my sister. The burial was was very personal. Because it was just the family there and it.

[01:35:08] I don’t know. Symbolic in some way I guess it was just quiet. Was it a recruitment scene. Nosy people it wasn’t there was just awesome. And so I was just waiting to have that with mom and he just went ahead and buried earned in Tony I’m sorry.

[01:35:31] That’s horrible. Yeah it’s um it’s you know I’ve thought of every possible.

[01:35:40] Because he’s just he thinks he’s going to see her again really soon.

[01:35:44] Right. The burial wasn’t important to him. It did. He didn’t need to be there. He wasn’t there himself. No he wasn’t even that wow. He wasn’t even there. No he just gave the OK for my grandfather to bury her. I mean he could have just texted me and told me the time. Yeah. Do you even know where she was buried with my sister. OK.

[01:36:17] Yes so you can. You can visit I guess.

[01:36:22] But it’s just when you have your your mind set on how it’s going to be.

[01:36:27] I was like this is like I could picture it like this. This because I hadn’t cried or grieved or you know this was going to be my time to just let it go. Yeah. He took he took that from me and never said another word to me.

[01:36:48] A word um aunt had told me she’s worked up about half in me all near death so she just spit it out.

[01:37:04] Oh by the way she.

[01:37:07] Oh man I’d like. I’ve heard of this. I’ve heard I’ve actually read on forums where I guess maybe even beyond this they were people didn’t even know that a parent died and they just. Yeah yeah. And then I just find out later there’s someone else because nobody tells them I.

[01:37:35] I can’t. I don’t even know.

[01:37:37] I don’t I had never heard of anything like that before.

[01:37:44] Yeah I was. My dad died two and a half something like that two and a quarter years ago something like that and I was stunned at the time and I was able to go to my mom let me come to hospice to see him. But one last time but as soon as I left hospice that was it. Like I wasn’t I wasn’t going to be invited to the memorial or anything like that. I mean I didn’t know that at the time but you know that’s just how it was going to be. So no they don’t. Jehovah’s Witnesses. Rob you of the ability to grieve properly. Yeah. I remember when my. I’m honestly I’m kind of weird around death. I don’t. It’s something I still yes processing myself you know when you grow up in the coal you don’t think you’re ever going to die. It’s like somebody told me at 38 years old that I’m going to die you know someday like that.

[01:38:55] Oh that’s so weird. For anyone listening who was never a witness. But when you buy into that.

[01:39:02] Like I never even thought about death as a possibility. We weren’t supposed to die. The world was going to end and we were going to walk into a little paradise and it feel like Adam and Eve or you know back in the day. But some no one of the things that my I have one person that I cared about died when I was a kid and that was my grandfather and he was never a witness. He was just a good dude. And remember you know going to the viewing and things like that and how emotional it was I remember afterward being able to go back to my grandparents house with family around and we sat around and we you know we told stories and we laughed and we cried and there’s a there’s a catharsis in that and there’s a catharsis in being able to you know I would go back to my grandmother’s house and my grandpa wasn’t there and somehow I think that helps you. I was just a kid but it helps me you know kind of grass what had truly happened and when you’re shunned you get none of that. We never got to go back and see my dad’s chair empty. I never ever got to talk to a family member again and reminisce about the good times or even the bad times. You know they just that possibility doesn’t exist and it’s just the most Jehovah’s Witnesses. Are pretty inhuman already and then they they just take away that last aspect of dignity and humanity in the most personal of situations. And it’s just. There just really aren’t words to describe that and I’m sorry for. I’m sorry that so much was taken from you.

[01:41:13] And that just seems hollow.

[01:41:19] And they are they strip you they strip you of all your rights. You know you’re no longer a family member you’re.

[01:41:29] Somebody described it as being a ghost and yeah you’re ghosted. You just they just disappear one day and think that on some level we’re used to that. Maybe. I don’t know. I can’t speak for you. You had such a small cluster of people around you as as a witness growing up. You know I grew up in a large congregation and I was used to just you know people come and people go like me. I had so many friends who got disfellowshipped and just disappeared and I didn’t know what happened so on and so I guess for me death was kind of the same. They just disappeared. I’m just used to that. But not normal.

[01:42:22] No. No it’s not normal at all. And I’m I’m so glad that you have a therapist who I guess knows what normal is around this stuff.

[01:42:35] Yeah you know. Yeah.

[01:42:37] And it was good for my kids too because I reached out to a lot of people and I was four years old. So she’s my oldest and she she understood what happened to some degree I needed to have that conversation with her and of course there’s a a room full of people all telling their children that you know my mom is just sleeping. She’s gone to sleep. She’ll be back in paradise. That’s what they’re telling all these kids.

[01:43:11] And so I had reached out to two specialists on how to deal with this properly.

[01:43:20] And so she she was there visiting me at the at the hospital and mom and my mom and she comes out to talk to me and she said and I’m asking her you know what do I. What do I say. And she says Just promise me that you won’t tell your children that she’s sleeping.

[01:43:39] Wow.

[01:43:42] Because every time your child goes to sleep they’re going to think that they’re not going to wake up.

[01:43:48] Oh my gosh I never thought about that.

[01:43:52] Yeah neither had I. So you have to really I really had to to rewire that witness thinking at that point to handle things properly with the kids.

[01:44:08] And that’s why the burial list was so devastating to me too. It’s. It’s good for kids at that age too. I understand there. They’re gone. Yeah they can. They can see it. And then they understand it. Yes. And then that was taken away from my kids to my kids.

[01:44:33] I’m not going to say that I did anything wrong but in their eyes I did do something wrong and hence I was cut out of the picture. But my children didn’t do anything right. It is pretty pretty and unfair to them. But I hadn’t I hadn’t realized until you know I was talking to these people with these these Jehovah’s Witness children they’re told and how detrimental it can be I never even thought about some of those aspects.

[01:45:14] So then you know like officially out or what is your and they haven’t disfellowshipped me.

[01:45:30] I am viewed as such. I there’s no there’s no contact or you. My dad my dad treats me as such an he made quite obvious over the last month.

[01:45:45] But the I am now that everything’s done and settled you know I finally feel free.

[01:45:56] Yeah. Now I’m going to do do what I want to do.

[01:46:04] Going to raise my kids the way I want to raise my kids and not feel guilty or pressured for it.

[01:46:11] An is there anything you know what are you and I know I gave you a list of questions and I know you’ve worked pretty hard on some of the answers. Yes. Is there anything you know I’d like to talk to you now about. You know where you want to go going forward. But yes. But you know is there anything that that I that you want to touch on like why others would think you left or what you’d like people to know about the religion or anything. I mean this is also fresh.

[01:46:51] There’s some of these questions you know I don’t know if you’ve had enough distance to to process some of this stuff no.

[01:47:05] No. Mostly the point that I had wanted to make from all this is is either people that are leaving or have left or right. No witnesses is just as to stand up for yourself don’t let them know you back down from one second and they will take everything no date despite what they say. We still have rights. We can. You can fight it.

[01:47:39] That’s so true. They just the things I remember there was a point where I realized that pretty much what you said they’ll take everything they just Jehovah’s Witnesses just take and take and take and so you have nothing left and they never give you anything in return.

[01:48:00] They make you feel guilty for it. You know I’ve been constantly tiptoeing around my dad’s feelings. I should have stood up and asked him where Mom was because they didn’t bury her right away. I should have called up and and demanded the answers that I deserved an. And then I would have been there if I had stood up for myself but instead I just took the shunning and kept quiet so that I didn’t didn’t hurt his feelings. That make me uncomfortable and because of that I lost my rights because I didn’t stand up. There was no fixing that now I know I’ll move forward from that.

[01:48:44] Other people haven’t been there yet. Know I hope that nobody does. But can you can fight for it. Yeah.

[01:48:55] Do you think that’s you think that your dad would have told you I think.

[01:49:03] Yeah. If I had. If I hadn’t confronted him and said you know where is mom and asked him direct questions he would have answered them.

[01:49:11] OK. OK. All right. Yeah.

[01:49:14] I just I just wondered how he probably would have. He probably would have answered them but he wasn’t going to initiate any kind of conversation with me and so I just let it go. I just trusted that with something of that gravity that he would tell me when it was time.

[01:49:32] Oh well of course. Yes of course you would.

[01:49:35] I didn’t expect the shunning to go to that extent. Right. Right. I had never heard of it before. I know I didn’t know that that it had happened to anybody else so I didn’t see it coming in. Sure. Well let’s just let it happen.

[01:49:52] This is this is this is a great warning to other people. Yes. Now they can they can know that you know. Yes. This is as far as it can go. You know they they can I’m sure there’s some way you can even go farther.

[01:50:08] Like I said some people never even take it from you. They will. Yeah yeah yeah that’s true.

[01:50:13] They’ll take it all. Yeah.

[01:50:16] Well I’m so sorry that so much was taken from you. You know it’s not fair. And there’s really no there’s just give you a hug if I was there. There’s just not words that can really even touch you know the breadth of this experience. But you do have this new freedom like you said you are finally set free. I will say that you know for all of us as long as you have family that’s in there is always like this.

[01:50:59] This tie it’s it’s hard to ever I guess truly be set free. I mean I guess nobody’s ever free from anything in life 100 percent.

[01:51:10] But the freedom that you get is just so it’s just so so amazing. When you realize that your life is finally yours Yeah there’s no expectations.

[01:51:27] Yeah. Well you put on you were.

[01:51:30] Yeah you know that’s gone and it’s pretty great.

[01:51:35] Yeah. So where are you now and what’s what do you want out of your life now.

[01:51:44] Want to figure out who I am and what I like. You know now that I know that I’m allowed to do that I’ve given myself the freedom to do that. You know what. I walked into my therapy one day and started off.

[01:51:59] And she said you know tell me who you are and what you like and let’s start there and I just look at her and I got nothing to say and I just think for a minute and I said well I love my children I know that and that’s all I could come up with.

[01:52:21] I didn’t know what I like to do or you know who I was I never got to just explore that in. So that’s that’s what I want and I want to give that freedom to my children. I want to get to that place and and share that with them. It’s it’s it’s not easy for the first little while you know I felt so guilty for a long time that it was so bad that during the day I had to take pictures of everything I did in the day and my children. Everything I did I took a picture of it so that at the end of the day I could look back and say Oh yeah well I did this good. And that was good. And I realized that I did something good in the day because when you’re not living the witness lifestyle you’ve you feel like you’re not you know those expectations are being met so you can feel less than or like you’re not accomplishing what you’re supposed to. Need to change that. And realize that I can do good.

[01:53:29] Outside of that absolutely.

[01:53:36] I mean I’ve been out now for two and a half years I can say that I still feel somewhat like what you’re saying.

[01:53:45] You know trying to figure out who you are and what you want what you like what you don’t like. You know there’s there’s this whole world to explore out there and it’s exciting. It’s scary at times but know you just as you go through this process and you discover these things. I mean it’s just just amazing. You know what actually is in this world and what we can experience. And high as we can get out of life. That we’re just never there was just never around in the environments that we grew up in. There was just no there was never any true joy.

[01:54:32] No. And you can have that now. And and this is so amazing. Any time I hear of somebody who gets out and they have kids and they can give their kids you know that more from the beginning of life.

[01:54:48] Yeah man that’s just to give them that leg up.

[01:54:52] It’s funny too because it’s so exciting for me to like my my daughter just we just celebrated her her birthday and she’s she’s four now but this is the first time actually you know celebrating it. And it was the most exciting thing. It was just so much fun that my my friends stages they kept laughing at me for one I had no idea how to do a birthday party. I never done Oh thing. I never experienced one so what am I doing here. They thought it was hilarious and then the excitement that comes from it. They just they thought it was almost comical to watch me try these things for the first time. But beautiful. It’s fun. Yeah yeah yeah.

[01:55:37] It’s beautiful to be able to No. Even it you say you. Twenty five I think. Twenty seven. Twenty seven. You know to be able to even at twenty seven whether you’re twenty seven or. I think my wife was thirty six when she had her first birthday. Like those things are just there’s so much fun. It’s a memory and I kind of think it’s cool because when you’re an adult you get to remember it like my wife.

[01:56:09] You remember her first birthday. You know how many can say that. Yeah.

[01:56:16] I know. So you’ll get to do that too. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:56:23] You know it is awkward at first. Try to figure out how to do this stuff. But the cool thing is you don’t get it. You can do it how you want. You don’t have to. You don’t have like a family tradition that you need to stick to or some not. It’s yours. Do what you wanted.

[01:56:43] The problem is I would overthink it so much. Like with the birthday situation I would know. Then I was feeling bad for all the other kids because all the other kids aren’t getting a present too. Oh yeah yeah. So I’m like well this doesn’t exactly seem fair. You know I’m just overthinking every aspect of a birthday. My friends thought it was absolutely hilarious.

[01:57:05] Oh sure it is from the outside. Yeah.

[01:57:10] I just don’t get it. Yes absolutely. Absolutely.

[01:57:15] I agree with you. You know that whole like. Well wait a minute. What about the other kids. They’re not getting a gift.

[01:57:25] No.

[01:57:26] At my wife’s first birthday party I had gift. We invited a bunch of people mostly people that we cleaned for and some new friends. We amazed that we had been out and we rented a place and we invited all these people and like we had like 70 people show up.

[01:57:50] You know they had kids and I’m like you know this is my wife’s first birthday. They’re going to you know these kids are going to see my wife opening presents and stuff that that people got her so I had little gift bags made for all the kids so that all the kids would have something because I don’t know how this works and you know I mean it’s cool that kids kids don’t always expect something in life but you know you don’t you don’t know that. And I wanted them to have fun and walk away with something to know. And so here it is my wife’s birthday party and I spent all kinds of money you know do you know.

[01:58:30] Yeah I almost did the same thing. You know I wanted to have a little something for everybody and make friends there.

[01:58:35] You know they step in you know thankful for them and they’re like No they’re getting cake that is their president. They get cake. They will be happy.

[01:58:44] Yes. Now I totally get it. I totally get it. And every time that somebody is birthday I want to buy them something and it’s like you know what I can’t afford to buy everybody. It’s you know it’s it is an interesting foray into the real world to see how things work.

[01:59:04] And it’s definitely a learning experience.

[01:59:09] It is. It is. But there’s so much good that comes from it.

[01:59:14] Not all good. I mean I’m sure you know there’s been things that you have to learn that are a little you know you might have anxiety around just because you don’t know what you don’t know yet. At least that’s me because I have a lot of anxiety naturally anyway.

[01:59:30] I’m an over thinker but yeah it’s just there’s just so much that you’re going to get to experience and and you’re gonna get to experience so much through your kids. I’m just really excited for you. I think that it’s it’s great that you have this opportunity finally you know to to be able to be you and to live your own life it’s pretty great.

[01:59:59] I want to thank Tamara for being brave enough to put her story out there so soon for being open to sharing some really tough things. And honestly I couldn’t be happier that she’s finally found freedom from such a bleak and somewhat oppressive in ways you know outlook you’d like to send messages of support to Tamara. You can do so by going to my Web site that shunned podcast dot com and you can leave a comment for there on the episodes page. You can also find the resources that were mentioned in the episode there and the video for the song that she chose to represent her journey facts. You should be able to on your podcast out. You can probably find those same resources if you look there right now. That’s not the only place that you can comment on the episode. We also have a Facebook group called shunned podcast where we have people discussing episodes and their own lives and I try to do things to encourage members to find good things in life and to grow. As I stated earlier I want to give you some highlights of the past month in there just to kind of give you an idea of the supportive group that’s forming Wednesday we post things that we’re happy about in life this week and every weekend we post things that we’re doing for ourselves as part of self care something that we were never really taught to do in these calls. This month we’ve shared our Halloween costumes a lot a lot of really cool things in there. Pumpkins that we carved I made an announcement in there of a new project that I’m working on as well for the SJW community. We’ve also had one of our own that was just disfellowshipped. And unfortunately he’s now been officially shunned as well. And we rallied around him. So things are happening in there. And my goal is to keep it more about us as individuals and our stories and supporting one another than just you know kind of keeping it the latest Jacob stuff. There are plenty of groups for that if that’s if that’s what you want but this is kind of about us as human beings if that sounds like something that you’d be interested in. Head to Facebook. Look up the group called shun the podcast. You’ll see the logo there and just apply to join and I’ll approve you. You can also find the podcast on YouTube under the Channel called shunnedpodcast one word. And also on Instagram at shun podcast. Again one word. And on Twitter at shun podcast. Again one way you’d like to hear my story and a great insight into how the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses works. You can do so at the podcast called this SJW life. Also found at thisjwlife.com we haven’t really had any new Patriot supporters for the past couple of months. But I want to take the time to seriously think that people that really helped me make this show possible by supporting it financially Schoen takes not just work and time but there are also costs involved in getting the audio hosted on the website and getting transcripts keeping the equipment working all that kind of stuff you can show support for the show for as little as a dollar a month. And it means the world to me to know that others are in this with me. It’s encouraging to see people that want to support what I’m doing here. You can do so at Patriot and dot com slash shunned if you’re so inclined. And another great way to support the show. Both the shun podcast and also thisJ.W. life. Both can use it. Just go over to iTunes and leave a five star review for them. It helps them get found in the searches on there so that more people can find it and the more people that find it the more people that can be helped by these five cars next month I’m going to have a fascinating interview. I’m pretty excited about this one as well. It’s with someone that will be kept anonymous as long as she wishes to be kept that way. This person grew up in a small racist cult that was essentially a family cult. You might say it was kind of a white supremacist call and doctrine but it wasn’t you know it wasn’t with the intense hatred and and the violence that sometimes is attributed to those groups. But you know the doctrine itself you know was kind of in that realm. But what what you really going to see in there along with that is just how a cult forms how it starts. I was just amazed when I was doing the interview. It’s it’s a look into the seed of a cult how it can grow from one person to one person’s ideas. And it’s really fascinating. And I think this is an important episode not just because that but also because behind it is a woman that has been through so much and that is a beautiful person that shines through all the ugliness in her past we’re going to close out this episode with the song no hell yet by fair voyeur. And you can find a link to her song to the page on Page for the show to resources that were mentioned and more not just on the Web site but if you’re listening on a podcast app you can probably get it all in the app by looking at the description as well as we end all episodes love others do no harm. And go be happy. Go.

Episode Nineteen – Lyndi is shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:41] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we expose the religions that use shunning as a tool to control people. Today I have an interview that I did with Lyndi. She’s a truly amazing woman that has a lot of insight into a lot of things. And I’m sure those are hard won lessons. You know kind of living a trying life. You’re going to hear a story about a young marriage in the witnesses a story that unfortunately echoes many others. You also hear a mother’s struggles after becoming a mom and suffering postpartum depression and then the spiral that led to her waking up and leaving the court behind. You’re also going to hear what it’s like to have your own daughter show on you and you’re going to learn what she’s done to try to reach her daughter someday.

[00:01:26] So let’s go ahead and get to know Lyndi. My name is Lindy.

[00:01:32] I was I am forty three years old. I was a Jehovah’s Witness. And now I am shunned.

[00:01:39] All right Lyndi so then how did you come to be a Jehovah’s witness in the first place. What age did that happen.

[00:01:46] Well it happened when I was 10 years old. I’ve kind of thought back to this of what attracted my mom to the religion. And one factor was she had grown up in the same town for most of her life. And then she met my stepdad and he did land leasing and sold right away to land so he moved around like every six months to two years. And so immediately after they were married we moved to a different area where she didn’t have her family around. And also when she was young she was like 19. Her 15 year old sister. Died in a car accident. And I remember her saying everybody told her well God needed an angel and that never really made sense to her. So I think that she was drawn to it just for the teaching of the resurrection and that made a lot more sense than what she was taught. So we moved to this new area and I was in school with fourth grade with a boy named Jason and my little sister was in first grade with his sister and my mom approached their mother and asked if she wanted to help her with a Christmas party. And that mother said well I can’t because I’m a Jehovah’s Witness. Would you like to know more about that. My mom said sure. So she started studying with her. And I would say within a year my mom was baptized. She rushed into the baptism because she was pregnant with my youngest sister her fourth child. And she had the arch negative blood factor. And there was a good chance the baby would need a blood transfusion. So she went ahead and got baptized so she could refuse it on the grounds of being a Jehovah’s Witness and she had a home birth. So it wouldn’t be forced upon her.

[00:03:42] And she was like Yeah it really sinks in on how how much mind control was there already for her to be willing to let her the baby die in generalities that. I know why she would in full force. So. So that that’s my baby sister was OK. Luckily that seemed like you know Jehovah protecting her.

[00:04:04] That’s kind of what the thought was. So that kind of strengthened it and from my perspective the family the mother and the two kids would come over and study with me and my sister would do the Bible story Balkan. The

[00:04:19] 10 year old boy Jason was the nicest boy I had ever met in my life because he’d study with me and you know say so you know who created out of an even I would say Jehovah Niego. Good job. You know it was like wow I never had a boy so nice you know and encouraging everybody at the meetings were so nice. Then the whole thing with the Paradise was like extremely enticing to a 10 year old. And. And. And I thought I mean I was wholeheartedly immediately as well like it just sounded so good and they felt lucky to know it.

[00:04:55] And and we were just yeah immediately and yeah.

[00:05:00] Sounds like it. I mean you know obviously your mom went in full force but you even had a peer who you know to to help you along. That’s that’s a very hard thing to resist. Yes. So then what did it mean to you back then. You know you’re studying with this this other boy and you know the the Paradise sounds so nice. Did. How did that change your life. Because you know you’re 10 years old and you were in the quote world and now you’re going this new direction.

[00:05:36] Well like I remember finding out you know we couldn’t celebrate holidays and that was like really disappointing.

[00:05:43] But my mom said like she never liked the holidays anyway there were so much stress and pressure. And you’re just giving gifts for no good reason. And now we all have you know plenty of other times that we get GEF. So it’s like well okay I can I can deal with that. And then when I found out you know I made Jova sad and upset if we did holidays I was like OK I’m done with holidays and my real father picked up me and my sister.

[00:06:14] I think it was like her seventh birthday and he took us to his sisters house to have a surprise party. And I locked her and I in the bathroom crying hysterically and would not come out because I did not want to make Jehovah angry and him like kill us. So it was like that immediate to that I was willing to give up everything because I would you know because the promise of paradise. And I remember right from the get go it was coming soon like I was coming so yeah. Yes. So it was like it didn’t even seem like a big sacrifice really to me at that time because you know I we were just lucky that we found out about it. Like just in time in the end was coming and you know having the elephant and the dolphin and the lion were going to definitely make up for missing the holiday. But but immediately to my grandparents when they heard about this they told my mom like this is a cult.

[00:07:14] And I remember them coming to visit one holiday which really made my mom mad because they were like coming just to try to you know basically like satan trying to stumbler and she was very mad and offended that they called it a cult. And. My grandparents tried to get us to celebrate me and my sister wouldn’t. But my step dad and little brother did so like dad an immediate divide on the family you know like right from the get go.

[00:07:43] And all my relatives I started to see as bad and you know tried to trick us and stuff like that.

[00:07:49] So it was very quickly up very quickly my whole entire universe changed and everything good about my own personality or what I thought were my you know good things like loving animals and loving babies and being just myself wasn’t good enough anymore and all the goals that we had you know put on us by the religion really took hold and I really went for those things to please everybody.

[00:08:17] Wow that’s a really interesting point you make there. And you know what a healthy outlook it is to accept yourself as you are and to love yourself for the good qualities that you have in him suddenly to be thrust into an environment where Oh yeah none of that matters. All that matters is that you perform these certain steps or do these certain things or be what we want you to be and then all the sudden you’re no longer okay you’re not good enough that that’s an interesting point you know to to experience that even as a 10 year old you know.

[00:08:56] Yeah yeah it is. And also the whole thing of our family dynamic being wrong like it’s already hard having stepfamilies and all that but to have immediately the separation of my stepdad from my mom my mom got a lot of extra attention because she was with an unbelieving mate and she would you know get a lot of commendation for going to the assemblies with us and not him and like I could see she got a lot of good and I know what the word is good feedback reinforcement like you know just what she needed to do to make yourself feel better about moving around. You know immediate recognition for her sacrifices and how hard it was. And things like that. So are our whole family really changed in a huge way and just got like really I feel like so dysfunctional and I would always envy the families that were all in the truth. You know they seem to have a great time at assemblies and we were miserable at assemblies and all that kind of thing. So I definitely had the goal of. That’s the kind of family I wanted in the future is like everybody in the religion and the truth and that would just be so fabulous. Like I always imagine that just as the perfect family life with everybody goes the assembly happy and you know that facade that they put on. That’s what I wanted.

[00:10:22] That you know that makes sense. Now how did you how did your stepdad handle it you know because this is a huge change very quickly. So I mean you know you were just kids you may not be privy to what that was like for him. But you know any insights there as to how I mean because that’s got to be insane to watch your wife you know just suddenly flip a switch and change so much and then you’re you know your daughter’s following along you know. Yeah weekly your stepdaughter.

[00:10:55] Yeah. At first he would he he wouldn’t go or anything so my little brother and sister they got to have birthdays and Christmas and he would spoil them like in a huge way.

[00:11:05] So that made a lot of tension for me and my other sister. You know he would be on my mom’s side and they would be on that side. But eventually you’d go to some meetings and you know he thought the idea of women being submissive and you know her trying to win him over without a word.

[00:11:25] You know he would kind of like aren’t you supposed to be doing this or she kind of got irritated when he started like learning more about how she’s supposed to behave but like we moved around a lot so different places would have different vibes. But a lot of times somebody would come and study with them. And you know he never ended up getting baptized.

[00:11:48] He always got to do like basically whatever he wanted to do with everybody soul treating him really really nice plus he had a decent job with decent money.

[00:11:57] So he was able to do more for people you know and he ended up he hired a lot of Jehovah’s Witnesses so I feel like he was almost treated better than any Jehovah’s Witness was. He got away with a lot. You know what I mean.

[00:12:13] Yeah he got a lot of fans he got to ride your sides of the fence I guess major fence right.

[00:12:18] Yes. And that and toward toward the time that I was waking up I would find things out.

[00:12:27] And I thought you know he could really help our family you know like come back together. This could be really good. So I would tell them things I learned and he was the type of person that would defend them to the death even though he had no idea what he was talking about. He would say what I was saying wasn’t true. That’s not what they say. I could send them links to show them. That’s exactly what they say and they’ll be like nope.

[00:12:49] So and then ended up like he was really brainwashed by it but he still never committed to it. So it’s really bizarre.

[00:12:57] Some of the most dangerous people out there are the people who never fully committed. So they don’t know what it was really like. So use adamin comments often under you know news articles that criticize Jehovah’s Witnesses or youtube videos or whatever. You’ll see these people who they they were they weren’t good Jehovah’s Witnesses. I mean there’s just all there was to it. They were Jehovah’s Witnesses wouldn’t claim them. But yes if it came time for you know to defend Jehovah’s witnesses they would step up and defend them with these stories that aren’t accurate that simply are not an accurate portrayal of life as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses because they weren’t fully committed.

[00:13:41] Exactly. They never had the same pressure and they never had the same expectations and they always got love bomb there. So right right. Yeah. It was a frustrating situation. And my sisters my all my siblings never got fully in. So for a long time they were kind of fence writers too like they just thought they weren’t good enough to be in it you know in their own minds. They’re like I know it’s the truth. But I just don’t feel like I can live up to it. But eventually as they got older and I spoke to them and they did some of their own research they kind of realized like oh well there’s a whole bunch of things that aren’t right. And I had to do with their own experiences and their own journeys to. But they still every Jehovah’s Witness though you know we grew up knowing as a family still talk to them and not me. So of course yes. So that’s the way it goes. You confided in them. Yeah exactly. Fourteen year old then.

[00:14:39] So how did things progressed from that time you know you’re 10 years old you’re starting to study. You get baptized at 14. You know what was kind of the trajectory there as far as you know life went.

[00:14:53] Because I mean it seems like you bought the world view very quickly that the witnesses gave you because you were seeing your your family and outsiders as you know these scary people who were trying to rip you away from the truth. What about you know at school or at the meetings you know how was life going for you and this interim time where you’re building up and progressing toward baptism.

[00:15:18] Well so like with my relatives since we started moving around a lot we didn’t really have a chance to see them a lot.

[00:15:24] So that was kind of you know not a huge issue we weren’t around to do much with anybody. So we just knew like I just knew in my head they would try to like trick me up with questions or you know I just wasn’t close to them. That was the bottom line. It was like they didn’t really count as family.

[00:15:41] Now we had this new family and as we moved around it was nice to go somewhere and have an instant family like within a week of moving somewhere new. We would have like a sleepover with friends you know. So that part seemed pretty lucky. And I was home schooled and part of that was like the only entertainment I had it was going out in service.

[00:16:06] Basically it was either home doing things taking care of the kids I remember your wife’s interview she was similar where she took care of my younger sister was 10 years younger so I took care of her a lot studied with her. I always had a nice sister in the hall that would come and study with me. So I like having that.

[00:16:23] So like you know for our lifestyle moving around a lot it did bring a lot of comfort to have this you know attention from people and friends immediately.

[00:16:35] So so I felt very committed and then all the people you know that go out in service all the time they’re role into it and that would be my outlet is going on service a few times a week. So I try to. I don’t remember if it was called Ishola pioneer when you were before you were baptized but I would try to do that and then when I was baptized I would auxillary pioneer and just that was my social life too. So I didn’t have any other viewpoints really from school or anything like that.

[00:17:03] Yeah. Oh something you touched on with homeschooling really struck me and I’ve always seen homeschooling you know parents who talk about doing it as a way to protect their children. But what I never really realized is so as that child because they have essentially a major life that much more closed off now when you go to things like the meetings or out in field service to knock on doors like those things now carry even more. What. No wait.

[00:17:37] They’re more special because that’s the only place you’re going to get any socializing. Yes I guess I hadn’t really thought about it from that perspective. Not only are they isolating you but in doing so they are propping up or making bigger these other aspects of life that they want you to see because those are the only things that have any you know provide any stimulus to your life.

[00:18:04] Yes. And then. And then another odd part of it is my stepdad who he wasn’t really all the way and so he wouldn’t let me go out in service every day I would have gone everyday if I thought of just you know to get out the house. Yeah but he would only let me go like twice a week. So of course with a kid that makes you want to do it more you know like Oh when I’m older I’m gonna pioneer you know because now I’m not allowed to but when I’m allowed to go out all the time. So so funny what they say no to a kid makes them want to do it.

[00:18:36] Oh yeah yeah. And usually you know usually when that spoken that’s spoken in talk context you know don’t tell your daughter not to date that guy because of course she’s going to want to date that guy right. You know that bad boy or whatever.

[00:18:50] Once it hits it’s field service failed. With my. That was my exciting time.

[00:18:56] Also during that time like I was trying to get well that was like at 14 I got baptized and we lived in Massachusetts and I really had the goal in mind of marrying this 10 year old that I had met Jason.

[00:19:11] I his family was all in. They seemed so nice and they had it all together and I knew I had to be very spiritual to you know be able to marry him. So that was one of the things at the forefront of my mind at all times is like I have to be good enough to win. You know Jehovah’s Witness boy with an older dad and all this.

[00:19:33] So you know you had to really keep your standards up because there were a lot of spiritual girls that would be in this path. And I had to be on that level. Yes.

[00:19:44] And and I would pray all the time like you know I wasn’t really seeing my real dad Marge because you know he wasn’t a Jehovah’s Witness. You tried to get us to celebrate holidays.

[00:19:55] You know the nerve of him he would still send us presents like Christmas presents doesn’t he know we don’t celebrate. You know of course I’d be happy to get presents but also like you know I have to have that attitude of like he’s just not respecting me. But having and then having a step dad that wasn’t my first Jehova was like my real dad to me you know. So I would I would sometimes pray like all day just like almost like you know your own little phone call to someone who will listen. And I can’t even imagine like the stuff I used to say could reflect his teenage rantings fires while I’m doing laundry. Please help me to be loving to my family and not mind you know doing this I want to be a good daughter and I mean it was just a constant thing.

[00:20:43] So being lonely and homeschooled and all that made me really you know make Jehovah something different in my mind than even what the average Jehovah’s Witness does. Right.

[00:20:56] But also you were you were super sincere. You can see through all of this that you you really believe this. This was it for you. Yes absolutely. And you were making plans. You know early on to get married and you know all these things that have this this cohesive family where everybody was a witness and. Yes. Yeah. So then how did things progressed as you went through your teenage years into young adulthood. How did things go well.

[00:21:26] So I ended up moving to Ohio where Jason lived.

[00:21:31] And I became a nanny for a family that went to fall lived with them and I started like officially dating Jason I think we were 17 very very young.

[00:21:42] We got engaged when he was still in school which is kind of hilarious. I think we dated a year and then we got married. I think we were 19. It’s so hard to remember ages. It’s it’s bizarre trying to think back and I don’t remember the exact year but I’m pretty sure we were both just 19 when we got married. So you know I I set my goals and I attain them.

[00:22:09] And I was so excited to finally have this you know wonderful family life and everything that I thought it was going to be as a Jehovah’s Witness and people would always call him little Jesus like he was always so nice to everybody.

[00:22:23] Yes yes yes he was that in the creation of a small hall so you know all of our friends around our age were really close. It was a fun group we really liked hanging out together that was like what I would say is the fun times my youth you know I had more freedom than I’d ever had being a nanny and had a car and got to go to Jason’s family on the weekends and stuff like that. So that that time period seemed like like I don’t know like life was going good it was going where I should go. And then after we got married of course we stopped hanging out with people like when you don’t need a chaperone everywhere you go. You don’t have as many friends being out and everybody else is doing their own thing with getting married and stuff like that. Like I think within two years almost every young person in our age was married at that kingdom hall. And I started seeing like the things that weren’t so good. Like we go to the meeting and I had.

[00:23:25] Step by myself most of the time because he had you know the sound to do or the books or the territories or you know whatever responsibilities it have.

[00:23:35] And sometimes I would look around for him and I couldn’t even find him. And I found out he would like hide in the bathroom stall like he was so he had so much pressure on him all his life to be this perfect that he he was really stressed out. And I did not see that after assemblies like during the whole assembly he would get really down on himself and feel like we weren’t doing enough. We weren’t doing enough personal study we weren’t doing enough service and you know it was you it was a reason not to. Yes. Yes. It was not what I had envisioned and we were very poor because he worked for his family and you know there just a lot of the brothers work for them and there wasn’t a lot of money. So he actually was able to get a job with my stepdad doing the oil and gas. At that time most cell phones with cell phone land leasing.

[00:24:30] So we moved from Ohio to Texas which was like a shock to everybody.

[00:24:36] You know Jason was a ministerial servant and moving up the ladder there and it’s very upsetting for his mother.

[00:24:42] And you know just it was a big upset and I think people really thought he made a big mistake with me because you know otherwise he wouldn’t have done this.

[00:24:53] You know I was we were definitely felt very judged at that time.

[00:24:57] But you’re taking little Jesus away.

[00:25:00] Now know a lot of nerve and he has a lot of family there around that area. So you know there was a lot of people. So we ended up moving and going to a new hall and that was the first time in his life he’d ever gone to a new hall. And it was a big hall in Texas with a few congregations there and you know instead of like I think our hall in Ohio like 70 people and this one had probably like 230. And you know we weren’t love bombed you know we were already in it. And people weren’t that friendly and it was really bizarre to him I had seen that already with moving around that not all halls are the same and same love and stuff but I think it really affected them and not being a ministerial servant like he he had a hard time just sitting there at the meetings like hello. That’s what I’ve been doing all my life it’s not so fun listening to the same thing over and over. But but but it really was a struggle for him. So we ended up settling in Oklahoma. He my dad had some work there and then we ended up he quit working for my dad and started a business with another brother so we could just stay put.

[00:26:13] And he did quickly you know make him a sterile servant again there and you know started working toward that goal again and felt better about himself. But still the constant you know depression and pressure of not feeling good enough. And I also felt like we never really could communicate because.

[00:26:32] I’m a very open person and you know you marry someone they’re supposed to be your best friend. So I would like confessed to him things like from when I was a kid things that I would do like sometimes. Me and my sisters would just yell crosswords at each other just for fun. Like yeah I buy and.

[00:26:52] And you would just be like like look at me like oh my gosh I was like did you ever do I mean really. No. No. And then like.

[00:27:03] All situations would come up and I try to talk to him and he’d get out the bound volumes to you know give me counsel and oh it would be so annoying to me because it’s not being real. Like like our life it was either silence or mock assembly part. It seemed like like I was supposed to be like Oh well thank you. Chilling me this dear husband you know. And so it felt like very not real. So that was a struggle but you know the end is coming. It really doesn’t matter who you marry soon you’re going to look like Adam and Eve and be perfect so you just hang in there and soon everything will be fine. You know that was kind of what I was betting on at that time just hanging in there.

[00:27:49] Yeah I can’t say I kind of feel for him because it seems like he was never allowed to be himself. I mean now. OK. None of us were in the cold. Yeah. All of us to varying degrees had to stifle who we were. But it really sounds like his life kind of was you know like an assembly part and that he just you know did the Watchtower thing always with death you know like you were saying you know you wanted to be real. And it almost sounds like you didn’t have anything else. He was just like a little robot which is very sad. It is. Yeah. I can identify with some of that myself a little bit still. I always struggled with. I would always beat myself up for cussing. That was a big thing that I struggle with as a kid. But I knew better than to do it around my parents or at the meetings. But you know I always struggle with that. But you see it seems like he just he just bodied on a level that was yeah. Just just very very sad. I hope I don’t know what the situation is right now but I hope someday he finds who he is.

[00:29:08] Because if I do to have and we’ll go and do it more as the story goes on because you know we had a child together so you know I still do know what his life is like and you know yeah. And it’s definitely just stifling emotionally and every other way having that pressure on you at all times and I’ve found it is.

[00:29:31] And I found like so much was just fake like one time we went to the meeting and it was all icy and staffin and I had my heels on and stuff but he jumped out of the car and I got out and I was like whoa. And he ran to help other sisters. Because. When he. Supposedly I flipped and I was so irritated you know. But it was like I don’t know who he was knifed as nice to me as he was to everybody else. And even when we were divorced still you know somewhat nice to me like he couldn’t really. He was never real but it did always seem like he was exactly though exactly what the cult told him to be like. Some people said well you guys were extreme like I was extreme also when I was in but I did not take anything further than what they told us to do. You know. Yeah. He was the perfect good Jehovah’s Witness. And he wasn’t taking things too far as far as what we were told to do.

[00:30:30] He just did what he got to do. You know got him hiding in a bathroom because he’s under so much pressure he’s freaking out depressed and yet there’s hardly any time to do anything.

[00:30:41] You go to work come home eat dinner or work. And then he’d have to like prepare for the meeting and then after the meeting come home and count the money and do that. I mean he always had all his life was consumed by stuff they were having him do and he would always say yes. So it was it was very consuming. But he loved he loved it because you know like I remember you said in your story and me saying like that’s where you got all your self-esteem. Yeah. So without that he did not even know how to be.

[00:31:17] Do you only exist in the eyes of others. Yeah in the eyes of the cold. So you can’t you can’t risk having cursing fights with no siblings because if you were to get caught and you were home to get in trouble then you could lose your entire identity. And that’s terrifying.

[00:31:39] It is. And one other story that was just hilarious like me and my little sister she was very like me just roll like boisterous and to me to me funny some people don’t find us funny but we do. But one time we were talking and we were like What is the worst thing somebody ever called you and like you know Kobe like the B word or something like that. And Jason was like one time when I was 13 my mom called me a little jerk and we just started. Like who. Like that’s.

[00:32:18] A bad thing.

[00:32:19] And he was like almost in tears and so so because of this you know what he viewed marriage to be and how I would treat him and respect him and all that. And I was more like real. I think I was a very big disappointment to him. And I made him cry a few times just by being myself being funny not taking things so serious. But yeah on the like. The bottom line is I really do feel for him. I really do hope that someday he finds the kind of freedom in life to be himself.

[00:32:52] I do know that dude needs a hug. Yes this is something real. That’s that’s yes that’s very very very sad. So how did things you know progressed.

[00:33:05] You know I’m gay. Well this is where it gets interesting.

[00:33:09] So it actually had a couple miscarriages and you know been being in the call all the meetings and all that. It was very lonely and boring. And he was always you know at the sound booth or stuff I didn’t even have him to sit by with the meeting. So I thought you know I would be so nice have a baby and when when I was younger and my little sister was a baby I used to walk around the conventions and I used to pretend people would think she was my kid which you know would be ridiculous because I was eleven but it was fun to have that kind of attention and the little baby to hang out with. So I finally got pregnant and Oklahoma with my daughter. And I was so excited.

[00:33:52] I was worried about Miss caring but this one went along fine and my mom and had home births and my sister at home births and we we didn’t have insurance and felt like a home birth would be a good way to go. So we found a midwife in the phone Volcan started going to her and she was a little odd which is pretty normal for you know some midwives to be a little Bentley holistic or you know just a little bit weird. She had like six kids. And you know what. She was just our midwife so we went with her and we told her about being Jehovah’s Witnesses and how we would take blood if that became an issue and she said that was fine and everything and everything was going along okay.

[00:34:35] And I was like seven months. I went to our office and she was feeling my abdomen and she said you know the baby’s not head down yet and we kind of expect that.

[00:34:45] But I can feel her head over on the side and let me see oh your baby doesn’t have a skull like what. And she she was like Yeah I don’t feel schol but don’t worry they can live a few hours. They’re not that ugly. Let me show you in this book. And I was just like oh yeah what it’s like I was immediately like just totally freaked out crying. I laughed at my mom followed me. She was with me at that appointment. We got in the car she said let’s just go and get an ultrasound and figure something out.

[00:35:22] She called around and got an ultrasound place to open that night and just meet us there. I was you know hysterical and a mess. And we went to the ultrasound. Found out having a girl and she was fine and her head was down. So it was very bizarre that you would even say that. So yeah just weird. So I was like I’m not going back to her. She emailed a few times and I told her no I not going back she goes You won’t get your money back I don’t care. We’re not coming back to you. And she’d also an odd thing is she would tell me like because I was smiling like we might have to induce which was really weird because you don’t do so with a home birth. You don’t you know that’s dangerous. So my mom always thought that was weird so so I ended up having to try to find another midwife and I did. And we told her the story of what happened and she goes oh well she is that lady we’re going to she’s a Wiccan she’s a witch. And that sent shivers up my spine like I still I don’t know for a fact but I feel like she was going to try to take the baby. I feel like she she had something about us being Jehovah’s Witnesses and was thinking she would because she had mentioned she couldn’t get pregnant. She really wanted more babies. I don’t know. It was very strange. I still don’t know the real answer or if that was going to happen but that’s how it made me feel like regardless of whether she was a Wiccan or not.

[00:36:51] There was something wrong there.

[00:36:53] Yeah there is something there every year. Yeah. And I have nothing against Wicken or you know different types of spirituality. But at that time it’s just like you know it seems like the opposite of Jehovah’s Witnesses would be that. And and it did seem like something was off. So so that was very stressful and I ended up finding the new midwife. But but the day I went into labor her assistant came in I never met her and she’s the one who like was there when she was first checking so it just everything was very stressful because it was uncomfortable and my Labor ended up being over 24 hours. Her head was turned the wrong way so it was back Labor. I did not sleep. It was basically it was traumatic. And no drugs. You know I had her at home.

[00:37:41] So when she finally you know when she finally came out and they put her on my lap I was I don’t even I can’t even explain like how I feel. I was I was like out of my mind at that point. And I was just like what do I do with it. I didn’t even have that. Like oh my gosh my baby I was just so like I was like just get it out.

[00:38:02] You know it was very very traumatic. And then she ended up being a very stressed out baby probably from everything that I had gone through. Oh an important fact is during that time it was an 89 98 sorry 98 that is when they had a little snippet in the Watchtower about well it appears that the generation of 1914 that would know by no means pass away. We have new light on that and new understanding. We can’t say that that’s the generation that won’t pass away and that people living then will still be alive.

[00:38:39] You know they had a little part and I remember sitting at the meeting and asking Jason like does this mean like you know people like my great grandma will still be alive. Is that what they’re saying. Yeah yeah. And almost like went over everybody’s head I felt. But I thought what. You know that was what I was taught from the get go I was worried the whole time I was pregnant that Armageddon would come and I would have to hike up mountains.

[00:39:02] Being pregnant you know what I mean like that with Saddam there to pretty slightly dead. They really did.

[00:39:10] And that’s the thing we’ve always used as a prophecy to pinpoint when the end is going to come.

[00:39:19] Mary how can you really say that we’re not saying that why.

[00:39:23] But that hit me I think really hard and I didn’t even know it so. So after the traumatic birth and everything. She also had Kaleck from 7 to 11 every night she would scream the pressure right from the get go bring her to a convention a week later which I did. She needs to be out in service from the get go you know Bible Training. There’s not too soon a time to start that. And it was I felt so much pressure. And I also did not want to take her own service. And I started worrying that you know like she was so little and fragile like she could die. Anything could happen you know babies you know they can just fall and die. And like I was I didn’t want to take her out in the car and and I just felt very stressed out and I wasn’t sleeping at all because she was you know high strung and crying a lot. And I started this was postpartum depression which I did not know. I started feeling like something was wrong with me. I was not good enough for some reason I just did not feel like being a Jehovah’s Witness anymore. I did not feel like having this pressure on me anymore. I could not handle it. But she would be better off without me because having a mother like that like that that is just terrible for her to have a mother like that you know to have someone who doesn’t want to commit to Jehovah and do everything they’re supposed to do. So I mean thinking back to that time like it was just I was I was crazy I would say I just lost it like I was not myself. I could not sit still and watch a movie. I could not read a book. My mind was racing all the time. And now I realize like I was going through like a manic episode.

[00:41:17] Oh is potentially ignorant question coming out. I have to admit I don’t know a lot about postpartum depression. And obviously people can can experience that who were never Jehovah’s Witnesses.

[00:41:35] But yes I think that I just wanted to ask do you think that because you keep mentioning this pressure to to be this good witness do you think that it was at least partially brought on by the fact that you were one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and had this this huge weight of you know bringing a life into this world that is going to end any day now and having to you know essentially not literally but baptize this little baby into this. This thing that was so big it required so much you know do you think that that added pressure maybe was what triggered it. Or is that not how it works.

[00:42:28] Well from what I understand now like a lot of times traumatic births what pushed somebody into it and it’s it’s really a lot about hormones a lot of her. Oh yeah a lot of people go through it for various reasons but for sure the whole stress of being a perfect Jehovah’s Witness to be a perfect mom was always there. And that’s what led me to make the bad decisions that I made from that point on. So so that postpartum depression happened just because that can happen. But also I did not get help because I didn’t address the postpartum depression. It was I internalized it all as just being a bad witness. Like not being good enough and I hadn’t done anything bad but because I felt in my own heart and mind something was different that that is what I attribute it everything to. Not. Not that you know that I was going through something medically you know.

[00:43:31] Yes yes. Yeah. Oh yeah. Back to being a witness because that dominates everything in her entire life you know.

[00:43:38] Yes yes so.

[00:43:42] So I was going through that and I fell out of my mind. And I knew Jason and my daughter they would be better off without me. Like I almost was suicidal but I didn’t feel right about that. And I just felt like I couldn’t be a Jehovah’s Witness again. And because I knew the rules like I’m such a rule follower that I did it to a T. I knew that you would have to commit adultery to be able to be free from your marriage. So I did that which is embarrassing and shameful to admit. But it was seriously for the purpose of like I wasn’t trying to find a boyfriend or anything but I started talking to someone on the evil wicked computer internet in hell back then it was like such warnings. You know and I remember just getting a little ping at night and like talking to someone telling me you know my struggle and them being compassionate. And so it was not easy to find somebody to you know just basically get me out of the situation and so would be free to remarry. And yeah.

[00:44:54] So I will live it. Let me acknowledge that. If you’ve already you know I know you say you’re embarrassed and you feel ashamed to say this but what was it that you found online when you talk to that person was that you found someone new. Yes you did break a rule. But you found someone who actually listened to you and gave you some emotional support in a situation. You know postpartum depression is is overwhelming for any woman who experiences it. But when you experience it in a culture where there is very little emotional health. You know I mean it sounds like you know your husband probably wasn’t able to give you much. Not at all. It doesn’t sound like he sounded like he was a desert emotionally and you know you’re in a an organization that you didn’t ask you. How they handled you know. I know I’ve heard stories let’s just say of women I mean my mom even had a miscarriage or two in the organization. And the way that some people in the congregation address that is just horrific. Like you know what should you be sad. You know you’ve got the hope in all this stuff. So they’re really emotionally invalidating you. So you know I can only imagine in that in that circumstance you know what you did was a very human thing to do. It’s not something to destroy yourself over because it’s it’s an awful place. You didn’t ask to be put in that position. You didn’t ask to have postpartum depression. You didn’t ask you know for this traumatic birth you know these are just things that happened. And you know sometimes things in life happen and don’t have to be. Unfortunately we came from a society where everything was moralized. Yes everything was you’re a bad person which is what shame is you know shame guilt as I did a bad thing. Shame is I’m a bad person. And you know what you did. You know obviously you get to feel how you feel. You know if you don’t feel good about it that’s fine. But you know for yourself. But I just I just wanted to put it out there that you know what you did was a very human thing you know. And one of the things that I had to learn you know when I left was to be able to have compassion for myself for being a human being. And you know not always making the 100 percent perfect decision according to their rules from the environment that we grew up in. So yes I just I was I hope you can hear that.

[00:47:42] I do. I really really do.

[00:47:44] And I really I look back and I don’t A. I don’t blame myself but I do take accountability. You know what. Yeah right. Yeah yeah but the ability for what you do. Right yeah. Yes.

[00:47:54] Yeah that’s right.

[00:47:55] But like I’ve told you some of my friends about this and they’re they’re cracked up like yours that Gerald Ford you had to get out the way they said.

[00:48:05] True for all of us like the self-fulfilling prophecies the self-fulfilling self-destruction like all of that we do to ourselves because that’s what they said. They said you would meet somebody on the internet if you spend time on the big bad internet.

[00:48:20] And that’s how most people cheat on their spouse. So I had a handbook of how to do it.

[00:48:26] You know what I mean I know that’s going to happen because they know they produce human beings without any emotional intelligence or support or celebrity or anything like that. They know what they produce and they know what the outcomes are going to be. You know that’s why they tell you not to read apostate literature because they know that they’re full of it and if you read it that you would see it. So yes you know it’s it’s they do set those things out very well.

[00:48:56] Yes. Yes. And immediately like immediately I told my husband well I cheated on you. So now you’re free to remarry. And you know he was he was upset and like that day. You know like I just being really mattered. And I just thought you know I I just thought well good now you know you’re free. I did it. I took I took the bullet on this one. So find somebody good and marry them. You know I really just felt like that gets me out of the picture so that you guys can be OK. And I remember I even asked my mother to adopt my daughter. She was only 8 months old.

[00:49:39] Like you know it was just like thinking back this is insanity.

[00:49:44] Like I would never behave like that under normal circumstances. But but yeah all the pressure of that. So then so then I moved out and I was still getting my daughter.

[00:49:55] Like when he went to work but very quickly that changed and he started taking her to other witnesses who were told not to let me see her. So immediately she was taken from me my mom was totally supportive and that my mom thought I needed to talk to a therapist.

[00:50:11] But of course a Jehovah’s Witness therapist. So this was in Oklahoma. She lived in Arizona and she flew me out to Loflin Nevada which is near where she lived and had this Jehovah’s Witness therapist meet with me. Now she wouldn’t talk to me because I was bad at that point. And she like dropped me off at this hotel stay with me you’re my mom.

[00:50:35] Oh ok yeah. So she was Sherman. She was helping already. Okay.

[00:50:40] So during this time like I’m stuck at a hotel a gambling hotel casino and Loflin Nevada.

[00:50:48] And these are things I’d never seen before.

[00:50:51] So I did a little gambling you know I did like all these I’m bad now right. So I might as well do bad things then. And I got a little tattoo of sun moon and stars because overall even with all this craziness I felt freedom for the first time in my life like the sun moon and stars had all been handed to me like it did have a meaning to me. Even that soon I still felt so guilty so bad and so worthy of destruction and death. But but there was something about it that just felt so right to so.

[00:51:30] So I talked to the therapist basically he saw that I had a lot of issues with my mother because she was always very you know controlling and she was the one that I tried to please all my life but I could never please her. There she was. She’s that type of mom and. And.

[00:51:48] My ex came with the baby or my husband at the time came with the baby and he actually said to me like I showed him my tattoo. Like I’m very transparent GOP. I showed him my tattoo and he actually said. Well I’m going to kiss you there someday when you come back to Jehovah. And I said nope nope I’m not like. That wasn’t even an option I didn’t want him to have hope. It was it was such a bizarre place to be mentally like I felt like I was fighting for my own life. You know like I found a taste of freedom and that’s what I wanted. And. I was it was very strange. So I told my mom wait nope I’m not going back. Why she thought this would happen. I would just go back and it would just be sex just like that. And so what she did was left to me in Loflin Nevada by myself wife. No I had like I don’t even know if I had 20 Bob. I don’t even know she went home to Arizona. I had to fly out and Vegas an hour and a half away to get back to Oklahoma where I had a job and she abandoned me there. She did not care what happened to me. If I died I died. I mean it was like such awful feeling like I felt truly abandoned and unloved and uncared about in the biggest way. So I ended up calling a cab company and I told them pretty much what happened and I’m stock and I only have 20 dollars and they ended up getting somebody off duty to come pick me up which was really scary because it was a man and I felt like he was going to rape me.

[00:53:30] You know what I mean you just think those bad things are always happening.

[00:53:34] Like I was you know it’s right from our ground zero holds a fear of the outsiders.

[00:53:42] So yes I I be raised and murdered. Of course. Yeah. And he picked me up early so we had like two hours in Vegas and like I had to go the car with him and go in a casino. I was really scared. And I I didn’t even hardly talk I was just like kind of hovering in the corner of his car. I’m sure he could tell I something’s wrong. And he did not do anything to me. You know he did take me back to the airport and I did make it. But that always will hurt when I think about it like that my mom really did not care what happened to me.

[00:54:17] I was abandoned in Loflin Nevada with nothing would that would hurt anybody that’s awful. Yeah that and that sets the tone pretty much for how you’re treated once you’re shot and you know you’re just thrown away like common trash. Yeah you and I I wrote a disassociation letter I confessed everything that I did.

[00:54:38] And turned it on. And a few times the elders came and tried to talk to me and I just wouldn’t talk to them. I knew that they would ask no personal questions and stuff then. Now I know how bad it really is when they do that. But I just felt like I don’t want to be one so I’m not going to talk to them.

[00:54:54] They’re probably just been further traumatizing.

[00:54:57] Yes I can see that now. I didn’t. I definitely had good instincts to avoid that whole year. So. So I of course everything went downhill like I had immature roommates that this. This boy this guy that I had slept with like knew like they were all I was 24 and they were all like 1920. Like recently out of high school and like this group and like they I was almost like I was very interesting to them because I was 24 with a child.

[00:55:30] And getting divorced yet I was so immature as far as just experience goes or knowing anything like like I mean I was I was very they loved like asking me things basically like laughing at me because I was so unaware of things. But you know as a little bit it was like two months of high school that I never got. Right there. That’s what I hope like I was in that fell apart. You know the roommates weren’t responsible and all this stuff and I ended up calling my real dad and asking him if I could move in with him and he said yes so I moved to Kansas which wasn’t too far. And Jason ended up filing for divorce. And just full custody and I didn’t find anything. I just went and signed it like I had no fight for myself. You know I knew I was unworthy and that’s it. And I’m just getting what I deserve. So I signed her over to Hamen. That was it. And he ended up moving back to Ohio with his family. So. So. The. Reality like my whole manic. Part kind of started dwindling like reality was. And I I only can think of how I felt like I was in a movie like I felt like everything was not real. Like nothing I counted. Nothing was real. Nothing mattered because we’re all going to die.

[00:57:00] And I felt like I knew we were all going to be killed any day now. But I couldn’t even help these people anymore. I couldn’t explain it to them. Like what am I supposed to say like you should be a Jehovah’s Witness. But I’m not being a Jehovah’s Witness. But we’re all gonna die. And I was driving to work one day and I heard.

[00:57:16] Ad on the radio for a place that was called Charter as a charter mental hospital and they said you know you can come here and you know if you need help we’re here for you and I just drove straight there and I went in the waiting room and I heard them talking on the phone to someone like yes we have her here. We’ll hold her here. I thought they were talking to my dad about me immediately like they could just see I was crazy but it wasn’t that. So I met with somebody. I told them everything I did like. I felt so much guilt. That’s not even funny. I’m a whore I’m a harlot I’m I’m following Satan. I just like everything I was told I was. That’s what I believed. You know and I’m as good as dead.

[00:58:01] And they referred me to another therapist that I went to an you know therapist don’t usually have a good hold on. You know leaving a religion like that. So I felt like she gave me some good advice. But you know not not exactly what I needed but I don’t know that anybody could like it’s a journey that you have to go on and I think that’s why this ex Jehovah’s Witness community is so important because this is what I needed. You know having people like us talking you through and telling you it’s going to be OK and you’re not crazy but. But that therapist did talk to Jason and said I think what’s wrong with her. She is mourning for her daughter like she needs to see her daughter at that point he hadn’t let me see. So. So he agreed and I was able to get her and she was 2 at the time and just it was just so nice.

[00:59:00] Like she was awesome. I felt really bonded you know at that at that time like I was over all the depression and all that and I just I just could not see living without her anymore.

[00:59:14] You know I was just I was just so like see like it’s almost like waking up and finding Oh I just did all this and here I am you know and I had a boyfriend at the time that was like you know not the best choice because when you’re in that kind of position you’re not you’re not really able to make good choices.

[00:59:37] But you know a decent person you know just a typical boyfriend and I had her for a couple weeks and she went back and then six months later I went to see her in Ohio and I actually called my ex and I said OK I’m willing to come back. I don’t believe it. I don’t believe but I’m going to. I would come back be a drover’s witness and just you know Mario again. So I can have my daughter. And he said I wish you’d told me this before because now I’m engaged. And it’s like it was a year and a half later he was already engaged. And I said to who and he said this girl she was 17. I was like Are you kidding me. You haven’t learned. And there are things that he had told me like. Finally at the end trying to like open up finally that that I was just like it was just too late for me at that time and I said Does she know that. Yes she knows everything about me. Like I just felt just like I don’t I don’t I can’t even explain exactly how I felt like a relief on the one hand because at least I was willing to go back you know like it was in his hands now. But also that. OK. Now there’s no hope in that part. Just Don an so and so he did Mary that girl and she became my daughter step mom right then. Right. You know. So. So as time went on I I got her whenever I could.

[01:01:18] And I still felt bad I was starting to like realize like this life is real and trying to like live life like you need to live to be successful and stuff but it’s very hard when you have no education and no way to get like decent jobs or anything. And.

[01:01:35] I ended up living in Texas with another ex Jehovah’s Witness friend of mine.

[01:01:40] She let me move in with her and her family. And she had been and she had a really rough time of it too. So we were both like this mess thought these messed up extro was one this is it still felt guilty though it wasn’t. We really couldn’t help each other through it at that time. But you know she she did help me out a lot at that time to to move to Texas and then. I ended up meeting my husband now. And I was like I would tell on like my story and stuff. And he could tell from the way I talk like I was still a Jehovah’s Witness you’d be like you’re still Jehovah’s Witness. I’m like No I’m not like I am just Fallah so I’m certain. Yeah I was like I am anything but Jehovah’s Witness. Like trust me. Like that’s why nobody will talk to me.

[01:02:28] And he thought like my anxiety like if a fighter jets would go over I would be like oh my gosh it’s Armageddon.

[01:02:38] It’s starting like I would really feel like that at any time. I still felt like the end was coming any day now. And I ended up we got married and I got pregnant with my second daughter and I was really happy.

[01:02:54] But of course that makes you think about you know what if they’re right. And now I’m bringing another life into this. And my mother ended up coming to visit when she was like four weeks old and I was so excited like like I told my husband like you know she won’t come. She’ll never talk to me. She won’t see her. But she did. And I was like oh my gosh my mom’s coming.

[01:03:18] I couldn’t wait to see here and I cooked for her and painted her toenails like I really catered to her. That’s what I always did and she said to me was holding my baby trying to feed her. She said you know you better come back to Jehovah or you and your baby and your husband are gonna die. And I’m going to be in the paradise with your other daughter. And I just started bawling. I was hysterical you know as it was so it was such an awful thing to say to somebody you know like the whole both sides of it like rubbing it in that she’s going to live forever with my other kid and we’re all going to be dead.

[01:04:00] And like that’s so heartless that is have no boundaries.

[01:04:04] No. And she or she had also told me she would have stoned me to death if we were in Bible times. So those kinds of things coming from your mom are very damaging.

[01:04:14] So did you know that there was actually a watchtower article I think and I don’t remember what decade it was from but they were lamenting in there that they couldn’t kill people more.

[01:04:29] Oh my God you know. Well you know we can show them. But if if this was barbel times we could have stoned to death man. The good old days. If only we could go back and be barbaric. You know what.

[01:04:43] I cannot believe your mom said that about stoning. That is. Wow.

[01:04:48] It’s hurtful. You know I still believe it. It really cuts Joe the core even more because you are still you’re physically out mentally in.

[01:04:58] Yes. I didn’t know that term but that’s exactly what I was. So so my husband came home from work about me crying in the bathroom and he he luckily had enough like he was raised I think like lucerne or Methodist Methodist I believe like not too extreme but his first wife was an extreme Baptist. And so for a while in his life he was like going to church all the time teaching Bible studies until he saw the hypocrisy in that particular church you know and he backed away. But he knew enough about the Bible that he told my mom you know you can’t say that to her like what the bible says love love is the greatest thing and you need to guard your hearts and doesn’t. And my mom screamed at him no way. And I mean it was just it was insane. And he made her leave. And that was the last time that I really was around my mother. That was the last time. So she left a few magazine stuff and I told my husband. I said well we’re going to have to be Jehovah’s Witnesses. And he said OK let’s study then let’s do some research. Which was the best thing he could have done. You know he knew there was no way you were ever being Jehovah’s Witnesses but he knew that I had to see it. So I started Ahmadabad. Yes. Smart man. So I start off with the magazines or the publications she laughed like the weirdest thing happened. Like when I read it it was like like a tune in my head. You know the way they talk and the way they write it’s different than anything else even Vitus even typing the type of the type of print is different.

[01:06:45] So you might write that nobody talks like that.

[01:06:50] You know here’s my mom as a kid I was like How are kids supposed to identify with this like nobody talks like this. No one would speak to another human being like this. They have their own style yes. And that tune in your head. Wow. So it makes must’ve made you feel at home to kind of get to it.

[01:07:08] Exactly it was like almost like a snake tamer you know playing the flute like I just I mean it really made me feel almost like in a weird way like it was very strange like I recognize that and myself immediately. And he’s like my husband was like why don’t we just use the bible because the Bible is what you need to you know show me and not these publications. Why do you need that. And I thought well how are we going to understand without the you know like the whole thing. Javas want us to say you’re not someone to show me like I’m too dumb to understand. So he said let’s just do the bible on us. OK. I was like Well one thing clearly that the Bible talks about is the dead are conscious of nothing at all and everybody else believes you know that everybody goes to heaven or hell and he is OK where does it say that. And I. Found it and then he’s like okay read around it and it was amazing that. That whole scripture the whole thing is talking about everything under the sun is vanity and it’s really about what it would be like if there was no God and the person who wrote it was like in a depression. It also said money is everything and wine makes the heart Mary and it was really like Oh so that’s not really what it’s talking about and that was eye opening you know that that little part was interesting to me and then I remember there were a few other things I said well the Bible says this and he says where and I.

[01:08:38] Locked

[01:08:39] and locked and locked and locked.

[01:08:42] And

[01:08:43] it didn’t say it anywhere. Yet it was something that we were taught as fact. You

[01:08:48] know what I mean. Oh I know what you mean. Yes.

[01:08:51] The whole technique being you know they would always Jehovah’s Witnesses would always make fun of other religions and say well you know if they just read the context around these verses then they’d see that their teachings are false and they say yes you know it’s them who you know they have their own narrative and they are skewing verses and skewing contacts to fit the story that they wanted so you knowM. trickers I mean.

[01:09:19] Yes. So though that kind of got me started. So then I thought oh my gosh I don’t even know what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe which was really bizarre to me because I felt like I knew everything you know. So so I actually got on the evil Internet again and I looked up what do Jehovah’s Witnesses believe which was kind of we I thought this is weird I should know what they believe but then I started reading like the whole thing about believing that Jesus is the mediator only for the 144 thousand and where the Bible clearly says Jesus is the mediator for all mankind. And like I said this I was on my own and I was reading stuff and then reading why it was wrong and there were different websites that I think other like Christian religions put out at that time.

[01:10:07] There wasn’t a big extra hole was when this community at that time so it was really with people trying to help Jehovah’s Witnesses which was really nice and I was able to just find things out and like the whole thing about.

[01:10:20] I thought if Jesus was God I should just say it plainly in the Bible and then finding out that is what the Bible says. They just change it to a god like so many things and that like I remember one day it was like a light bulb went off on my head and I would say I literally felt the brainwashing leave that I don’t believe it. Oh my gosh. I don’t believe it anymore. I don’t believe it. And it was from then on that I was able to start healing you know. Then I. Was able to. It was an obsession for probably six months of research and research and research and research and research. And then I found like JTB fact Starcom which was awesome because I still didn’t want to read anything from bad people that had you know. Dead against Jehovah’s Witnesses apostates hippo like that kind of thing. So that was a great tool to have just stuff that they said from their own mouths.

[01:11:20] Because you benefactor’s all their own publications.

[01:11:24] Yes. So awesome resource. So actually my total naivete called my mom and I said Mom you’re not going to believe this like you’re not going to believe what I found you know I said Who is your mediator who is your mediator.

[01:11:38] And she said Jesus is my name. I said don’t. You see God. She said. You don’t come up with this on your own which you know she didn’t come up with the Jehovah’s Witness stuff on her own but you know what does that mean.

[01:11:52] That is but I’m fulfilling. Well you just got that from an apostate.

[01:11:57] So it doesn’t count if you go at it on your own then it would count right if you were a child. It’s not exactly.

[01:12:04] And she she ended up hanging up on me and I was like wow and then that’s when I tried to get my stepdad dad you know come in and help and he saw he was really tricked too. So that was out. But from that point on I was able to help my daughter by carefully planting seeds. Like I told her one time. And she was definitely taught you know like one time she said Mom you’re like Phaethon. And I said No I’m not like Satan. Like it’s a little too you know you’re a little too young to understand but somebody explain play I’m not like think me as you are. You know those things were put in her head she was taught to still respect me because I was her mother but definitely to write off anything I said because I’m like feet. You know it’s a really sad way to see your child view you and everything you say doesn’t have any real merit because you’re not saying what everybody around her is saying. But I was able to.

[01:13:06] Like I said you know what the Bible says like take life’s water free. Like what does that mean. Like what if I told you you can have a free popsicle. But then I told you you have to run around the house 20 times to get it. Would that still be free. No. You know I all those real basic things but I was hoping it would plant seeds in her head. And we had a very close great relationship like she always felt like she’s just like me and all the little crazy that a little wild and you know funny and just just really we are bonded and we had text almost every day and I feel like it was probably on my mind almost every hour of the day of how to help her to wake up you know like I couldn’t say anything outwardly against them because I would worry that she wouldn’t see me again. But I try to instill critical thinking like I had her Holper little sister with a school assignment of like let’s say you look at this Web site for a product on the market that you see all these ads for. And everybody says we love it it’s great it’s the best thing ever. You know it’s so worth the money but then if you look at another Web site with balanced views and people who use them bought it then you can see while it broke. After three days or the batteries run out or you know just like you can see all the coffee.

[01:14:35] Exactly. I try to do it in a subtle way.

[01:14:39] When I ask her like What if when you grow up you find out like everybody around you kept saying the sky is red. That’s what it’s called is called Red. But then you find out everybody else thinks it’s blue. You want to know or would you just want to keep thinking it’s red. And she said I’d want to know. So I was like You know I had like hopeful moments that you know hopefully she’s getting this in her brain. But as she got closer to 18 I used to tell everybody like she’s going to have to stop talking to me and they said no no no she wasn’t like you guys are so close. I can’t see that happening. Everybody everybody said that and it would really frustrate me because I know you know. You know I know that you know she was baptized at 11:00.

[01:15:23] So like I I knew she was you know she’s raised and I’m very very good Jehovah’s Witness family where so my ex ended up moving in with his wife’s family and a very very small house with just one bathroom. They are like an addition in the garage. And he worked. And pioneered so they don’t have much at all. And my daughter was like a office off the kitchen that didn’t even have real drywall. So they grew up in she grew up with a lot of sacrifices in this life for the next life. You know that’s their view. That’s the new systems coming in. And it was worth it. And I know they like her that mom talked about my grandparents had a trailer with the fake rock around the bottom you know and she said Oh I love that look like someday I’m going to have a house with all that rock around and I thought I know what she’s talking about she’s talking about her mansion in the new system. You know what I mean. Like that’s how they think of things. They’re they’re planning their future like we planned it by trying to save money and you know plan on what we can do as we retire and get older. They plan on their whole life being perfect in the future because Armageddon is coming.

[01:16:39] So I definitely knew how she was being raised and how it looked and she seeing her dad treat her like they do on assembly parts like she doesn’t like any kind of conflict or yelling she likes things to be very calm. But you know that’s how she grew up. OK. Honey let’s sit down and read this Bible verse so you know who is going to soon take care of all the bad people including your mother on the road. Joe have a good job. That’s what she grew up with and felt comfortable you know. And she has a lot of anxiety problems and stuff just like typical witnesses do. So yes we we all did with that. So and her first step mom has a lot of that too. So like I could see her like following along like you know everybody second it because everybody stressed out because having that weight on your shoulder any day now it’s Armageddon is coming in if you slip up at all. You’re going to be destroyed too. You can see the weight. It really takes some people you know sitting back and just wishing you could tell them you know you just want to help them.

[01:17:48] It’s hard to live life with the guillotine hanging over your head you know knowing that at any moment it might fall and chop your head off. You know there’s a horrible way to kind of unpleasant.

[01:17:59] Yeah yeah yeah. So.

[01:18:01] So the last time I had her like I was getting desperate. I was just like I can’t lose heart like I can imagine.

[01:18:10] Yeah I I I did not ever want to live my life without her. And I knew her sister too would suffer. And we have I have two step daughters that they wouldn’t get to see her. You know I knew how this would be so like I had my sister saying just go back just go back. And you know it’s easy like just go back and you know it’s not easy but you know I thought I will do anything for her. If I can just get it changed a name like I’m not doing anything bad my life is very immoral just a simple happy family life. So. I thought you know what the heck.

[01:18:47] And I’ll just get that label changed and then all I can fade out of it you know so. So I called the elders in this town and had them come over and met my husband and my daughter and my husband. You know it was definitely a. It wasn’t legitimate which I felt bad about. But then again this is for my daughter. I’m willing to do anything. So yeah why feel bad.

[01:19:14] They’re the ones holding your daughter hostage.

[01:19:17] Right. But in their view like I do worry about putting this out there because oh you tried to trick me.

[01:19:23] You know what I mean that they record eight million people around the world.

[01:19:28] Yeah that’s why I know if if this is heard by my daughter or her family right they will be you know free to listen to it. So I hope that means that they will understand what I’m saying.

[01:19:41] So they came over and they were very pleasant and my husband said like he didn’t want me bringing my daughter to the meetings. He said she said you guys would Shawn her. Nobody would talk to her. Is that true. Yes. Yes. Well we have to take our time and see if your wife is clean. I just thought oh my gosh I wish he could just punch them now because. Of saying that to a man that. They’re going to judge your wife if she’s Kaleem like oh my gosh. So they said though probably a couple of months and I heard differently but I thought well that’s not too bad. So I started going to meetings and it was so hard like like I mean even knowing what I was doing it was just listening to it and the way that they talk about other people and how everybody is clueless but that is just like oh my gosh it was so difficult but. But I did it. And I found out later like I was really too confident to myself like I should have been crying to them and you know begging them to forget.

[01:20:50] I should have acted we. But it was almost like I couldn’t be that and authentic. So I was like a confident woman I would sit in the front because the back seats were all taken so I would go in and sit in the front. Like I have nothing to hide. I should have done that shit is that in the back.

[01:21:06] But people came up to me and introduce themselves and say I’m disfellowshipped and they turn around and walk away like it was just like a very awkward situation like like it is for anybody trying to go back and I’m glad I knew that. You know this. This wasn’t really me because being treated like that is so hurtful by a bunch of strangers.

[01:21:30] So I did that for a couple months and then they were going to have a meeting with me on a Sunday. And I was like Okay this is it. And I hadn’t gone to every meeting because on some Thursday as my husband at school and I couldn’t bring my daughter she was too little will be alone.

[01:21:46] So I’d call in. One brother gave me the number to call in. And so I sat with three brothers and two were the ones that had visited me and then there was the bad cop you know the one brother that was like the bad cop. And they were questioning me and I mean trying to see how sincere I was like I was I didn’t really know the point of the questions. But the one brother said like you haven’t been to every meeting Thursday and I said Well you know some of the meetings I listen to at home and he’s like that number is not for you and he was pointing in my face.

[01:22:21] That is for Prue publishers only not for you. And I was like OK. He’s like not for you. I mean it’s just like you gave me a number. No. But like OK. Please. Yes. And they locked the door which is really uncomfortable. Three Men and Me and a locked room like is just like.

[01:22:41] And what they were okay so let me go out and that and the other room and then when I came back and they told me you know Jehovah may forgive you but sometimes it takes the brothers longer so we’re going to give you a few more months and then we’ll meet back. And at that time I was like. I mean I took everything I had to walk out calmly my lesson as I saw my husband as I. Lay dying. I tried I tried and I could not do it anymore so he did like leave a message with one of the guys and said you know you guys said it would be like two months like that. That’s a lie. And to treat somebody like that is is not correct. Like I will not she will not be coming back. I’m not going to allow her to you know.

[01:23:27] So I’d just like to say that you know let’s say that your daughter were to hear this and let’s say that your daughter is still one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and go and let’s say she stumbled upon this what love would it take.

[01:23:44] For her to go to a Baptist meeting for four months and pretend to be a Baptist or a Lutheran or a Catholic or a whatever you know that she would view as as not being correct. Well Sue to get a person back. I mean what you did. Is extraordinary to be able to suck it up and go into that environment when it’s not what you believe. And face the bullying abuse of those brothers all out of love for your daughter. I mean I tip my cap to you that that is. I just I don’t think I don’t know that I could step back into a kingdom hall for any thing man and let it take me.

[01:24:47] It took you back like I hadn’t been in like 20 years and it felt like yesterday. Like the same talks the same information the same repeat stuff except there was a lot of new lies. So all the truth had changed. Right. But it was still taught like the same boring self-righteous misinformation beamed out and you know what.

[01:25:13] That’s what it’s going to be. And yet you put yourself in that position because you love your daughter and you wanted to have the freedom to see and speak to her. And I mean just thinking about that just just how an organization can can keep that from you can force a young girl to to go against what might even be her own and I imagine is her own individual feelings deep down if she were to actually think about it underneath the indoctrination underneath the rules. And I was a good rule follower myself. But underneath the rules were my brother was disfellowshipped I still knew this. Not talking to him thing is not right. This hurts. It feels wrong. Emotionally it feels wrong. I’m only doing it to follow a rule and if it feels wrong you know that’s oftentimes your conscience your body’s way of telling you this isn’t the right thing to do and that’s why so many people in the organization are so full of anxiety and depression because emotionally underneath the indoctrination they know this isn’t right. This hurts. And if it hurts why is this the right thing to do. We all knew better. On some level our humanity are basic instinct was that this wasn’t right but we did it because we were following rules established by an organization that had their best interest at heart not necessarily ours. And so I just I I feel for you I mean to be able to go into that situation. I mean that’s kind of how the year you know those that have to be able to to sacrifice that much to be able to go into that you are willing to sacrifice who you were.

[01:27:22] Just to get back and you know I found you cannot do that. Like. Like you have to be yourself. So like all extro was witnesses who think of doing the same like you know maybe somewhat more success and I’ve heard of the moms going back to save their kids you know to get them out and some have been successful. But but even if I had gone back now like I think about how it would be like when she came to visit. I would have to pretend all the time like the way that they talk all the time like when she knew I wasn’t a witness. I didn’t have to pretend to be a witness so. So now would be like talking to my other daughter like oh look how beautiful this tree that your home made was like. It would just be so and authentic and like trying to push my other daughter to go to meetings and I would still have to go to keep up appearances like that. The bottom line is it would not work but I did still feel like I just had to try it because because if I didn’t I felt like I would regret it. I was just really grasping for straws. I was like this is becoming desperate.

[01:28:28] Yeah. Again it speaks to your sincerity. I mean you were doing something insincerely you know ingoing trying to go back as far as you know being a witness but you were so sincere in your feelings for your daughter that you were willing to try something that goes against the very grain of who you are. You know just for her.

[01:28:53] And then you think to heck they let child molesters back. Of course they’re not doing it for the right reasons they’re doing it to get their claws into more children. But that doesn’t prevent them.

[01:29:05] So it was like you know like for you know like me you know for all you know one of those elders who was like Jehovah may forgive but but we humans sometimes have a hard time it’s unforgiving. For all you know one of those elders who is sitting there in that room with you had molested a child. Yes point or had done any number of awful things and come back.

[01:29:30] But now he can lord that over you. Yes. You know and an interesting thing because.

[01:29:38] I was talking to her about this stuff when when I was going through it and I told her I did tell her what happened like this brother was very unkind like he was saying this and you know I was doing what I could do listening to me means she said well he probably just had a bad day like the brothers are imperfect.

[01:29:56] And then my ex husband said something about I wouldn’t worry too much about the brothers like they do what Jehovah wants them to do because I’ll tell you what I’ve been in a position where I really felt like I knew the right decision and then by golly Jehovah directed me another way and I thought well why is that what I think but Jehovah directed me and I thought that sure takes a lot I don’t even know the word for.

[01:30:27] But to think that Jehovah is really in your head directing you. Yeah I mean that is just so surreal to me.

[01:30:35] Well how can you tell me. Yes exactly. God speaks Dante. Yeah. Yeah yeah that’s that’s where he’s out right now.

[01:30:45] Yeah. That level of believing that he is a Jehovah’s hand is right on him.

[01:30:50] And it’s funny how it is yeah funny whatever. But yeah it’s ironic how Jehovah’s Witnesses love to point out the imperfections of other religions as the reasons that they’re not the truth. But yet when anything goes wrong in Jehovah’s Witnesses organization there oh well we’re just imperfect. Right. Wait a minute I thought imperfection was an excuse. Now all of a sudden it’s an excuse for the organization. It’s not an excuse for Lindy and why she slept with this person but or whatever you know. Right. Well it’s an excuse for them to cover up and do all kinds of horrific things that hurt so many more people than you as an individual ever hurt or you know anyone as an individual has Jehovah’s Witnesses have no problem using that label of imperfection to cover over so many sins that exist within the organization as just a cover up and different rules it really hurts them and everybody everybody who is not a Jehovah’s Witness.

[01:32:03] Absolutely yeah.

[01:32:06] So one good thing during this time she did come to visit me like we went to a meeting together which you know she saw me Sean first hand which you know is just she’s got a good thing for your kid to see I’m like you know. But. But that was the time where the Australian Royal Commission was going on.

[01:32:23] So my husband came home from work and he said hey I saw your you guys as religion in the news something about a royal commission. So I was like Oh really. So I looked it up and I said oh oh this is interesting. And I handed her the I’ve had like checked out and she like read over and you could tell was like uncomfortable immediately for her because it said you know over a thousand abusers and not one reported the police and she’s like oh and then handed it back and that was it. And then I also said you know you know dad her step dad has a membership to the Y and I wasn’t sure if I should go or not but I was doing some research and I found out Jehovah’s Witnesses were actually part of the United Nations so they could use the library for a while so it seems like they could do that I could go to the Y for the pool and she’s like No no no no no.

[01:33:22] They would never do that and it would never do that I said Well let me call your dad and ask. So I called him and I was like.

[01:33:29] Hi you know I was just looking up something I thought oh they were part of the United Nations for like 10 years and he’s like oh ho ho oh they’re.

[01:33:38] Yes well yeah. They thought well they need a membership to the research library and then they kind of thought oh well maybe this is such a good idea oh so they stopped being like Aha yeah.

[01:33:52] That they start being it like a week after they are formality expose them and then the last ten years.

[01:34:00] Yes so. So I told Sheila I’d like my daughter I told her. Well.

[01:34:06] Yeah your dad said that did happen and she you could tell it just like she was. What. So the thing is during that time I was able to show her things that normally I would not have been able to show her. So the like pretending to go back yeah. As far as that goes because once you start seeing cracks it’s impossible to not see them like how long it takes for those cracks to grow. I have no idea. But yeah at least she thought that so. So she went home after that trip. And I had a feeling this is the last time I’ll see her like I was in the summer and her birthday turning 18 was the following May but I had planned one more big trip that I was really going to just show her more because I was like now I have nothing to lose but she actually called me like a month before she turned 18 and just said she is crying like. Hey.

[01:35:01] Babe what’s up and she said Oh that’s like what’s wrong what’s wrong. I thought our cat died or something and I could talk to you anymore and I was like wait a minute wait a minute you know you’re not 18 yet you can still talk to me like we’re going on this one trip and you’re still going to do that.

[01:35:20] Like I was kind of like no no no no no no no like this can’t happen.

[01:35:25] And she was like No Bob you talk bad about the governing body and you can’t do that. And I said you know I I understand this and I knew this would happen because I know you don’t have a choice. Yes I do. It’s my choice.

[01:35:40] This is my choice not to talk to you anymore and I said well I’m going to call your dad because you’re still under 18. So he stopped to respect me and I’ll call you right back. And I called him and he like this. I felt like he really showed his true colors because before that I had called me I I’d talked him before and apologized for what I put him through. And for the way I went about things like explained about like I really had postpartum depression I just really Sari’s and I’m sorry to like I wasn’t perfect and I’m sorry too and you know it seemed like pretty good.

[01:36:12] And I thought well maybe he has a heart and he knows like this would be devastating to our child to lose her mother. Like devastating to a kid with Auriti anxiety problems and already issues they’re going through. That needs a mom you know and he said you had this coming. Lindi this is all on you. And I was like. And I said you know Jesus would never shine on anybody. And he said you need to dig a little deeper.

[01:36:42] And it was just it was just nasty. So says Lake it. And I lost it like hysterically crying. Shaking. I mean it was the worst day of my life. I put a post on Facebook like this day the day I dreaded it finally happened. Like she’ll never talk to me and her step grandma wrote me on Facebook messaged me and said.

[01:37:12] How awful I was. I don’t deserve Jehovah I deserved to be destroyed. How I’m trying to make this all about me and it’s about Chailly. I mean it was just out to a private message of course and I ended up writing her back calmly. Three days later when I calmed down and just said you know I understand she had no choice.

[01:37:35] This is the way she was taught to believe and she thinks she’s doing the right thing and she thinks it’s out of love for me. And I understand that and I hate that she’s going to. I kind of like a show like basically kindness and then she wrote back like you should really come back like it was a first.

[01:37:51] You’re not deserving. You should be killed. That’s like all you should come back. Like it was just so they’re so crazy what they’re thinking.

[01:37:59] Yes phrasing Absolutely.

[01:38:01] So it’s all about them and how they feel in the moment.

[01:38:05] Yes yes so much. I mean and how proud she was of her daughter and my ex and like. And it’s like in the real world like a man living with his in-laws and a little garage you know it’s not exactly something to be proud of. But in that world it is because they’ve given everything up for this cult. You know so I went through a lot of mental anguish.

[01:38:35] I actually talked to a few tears I think he’s an expert witness therapists like I talk to him a few weeks up to this call that trying to prepare and then the day it happened I call them and think there’s nothing you can say. That’s the hard part like there’s nobody that can really help you deal with this. It’s just awful and. I went through like weeks of just shaking like I didn’t even know how to process.

[01:39:05] It was just like this is the worst thing ever and I can’t believe I can’t just call her and say look this is wrong. Because this way here’s the fact. Like it’s so mind blowing that we can’t help people we love that day. I mean it’s hard to even comprehend. Really. It really is.

[01:39:23] It’s a little job of manipulating the entire situation by the colds. I mean they’ve they’ve got it set out to where doing it. They’ve got you coming and going. There’s no way to really be able to have these honest conversations because they just shut down.

[01:39:40] Yes shut down really and so many time. Yeah exactly. Get furious or shut down. So so I kept thinking all these things I wish I could tell her like the things that I was going to tell her. And I ended up doing YouTube videos for her and that was so therapeutic because without that like to think oh I should tell her this why were she knew this. I wish she knew that and knowing that I will never know the right time for her to know these things. But if I put it on YouTube then at. Her like maybe some night she’ll be alone in bed and thinking of me and she’ll know these videos are out there and she’ll look at them. Who knows. But. I figure I can help other people because I’ve been silent for so long. Keeping my mouth shut about everything because I didn’t want it to get back you know I didn’t want to be viewed as an apostate term which I already knew wasB.S. Anyway I already knew it wasn’t anything bad but. But I didn’t want her to hear that word for me because I knew how she viewed it. But I I did a lot of research for each video and organize them and I hate being on camera about I did it. Hopefully someday she’ll see them I managed to be very calm very you know fact factum you know we’ll see what happens down the road with that. But like now I I felt this other level freedom opened up where I wasn’t Oh I wasn’t faking part of my life you know like for her like not saying certain things that felt really freeing and good I was able to reconnect with my real dad because I think up to that point I was so consumed with my daughter and wanting to help her. I didn’t have time to put in things that I needed. So my step dad had passed away and my mom was out of the picture so I have a real dad and I allowed myself to have that again. And that’s been very healing and good to have an. Eye. I just hold out hope for my daughter to some day. Call me you know but I hear a little things like she doesn’t talk much to your sister anymore which is devastating.

[01:41:52] You know my my youngest daughter Megan she’s she is so just amazing like she’s heard all this stuff for so long that when we we went to Ohio to visit my grandparents and that’s where my daughter is and she met Megan for launch and she made sure I was not going to be there I was not going to come in.

[01:42:15] And that was like yes I know I’m not coming in but my grandparents went to a different restaurant with me and I dropped off Megan for her sister. When Maggie came out is like so what did you guys talk about. And she was like well I brought up like the blonde like the Bible says I want mercy not sacrifice. And and she said well blood transfusions kill people too. And. I brought up the child abuse and she said well that’s only in one country and the media is just lying about it all. And she brought up you she brought up like fagging subject. Right. I didn’t even know she real. She had a handle on all of us but she did. And her sister kept saying well dying and you’re too young to understand and she said like what’s wrong with mom like you were fine to talk to her before. Now you can’t like she just loves you. I mean she just went to bat.

[01:43:10] For me and her sister like she knows she’s tricked. She doesn’t take it personal. Like I’ve explained to her from the times she’s very little. Because this is a part of our family.

[01:43:22] You know it’s part of our life. So she she has she she doesn’t internalize it or think it’s her fault but she wants to help her sister so much so that was amazing. And then I’ve had my my sister now has opened her eyes and off to like talk to her about it and say like you know I’m not living that a lifestyle and you talk to me. You talk to your cousins who are like you know quote unquote bad but you don’t talk to your mom who is like living like the cleaners moral lifestyle of us all like that does it make sense you hang out with other relatives that are witnesses and aren’t aren’t even good association like known to do drugs and get drunk all the time. Like it’s just amazing how disfellowshipping or shunning it’s just to keep information from them period.

[01:44:13] It is not about your association or like. Can you imagine a mom being bad association like hey you should go do some drugs honey. You know that’s ridiculous. Right. It’s really all about the control.

[01:44:26] And you know like you said it’s about information you know withholding information from these people it’s not about it’s not about anything more than that they’re really now and now and actually getting married I found out that like she’s not even one witness.

[01:44:46] Right. We all know there’s price to me.

[01:44:48] It’s funny. No surprise me about like my family I said well she’s probably married right. Right. But now. Now and then huh.

[01:44:56] Wow that’s Yeah. You know I it’s funny how. Every.

[01:45:00] Sunday they all believe me that I know what I’m talking about you know abiding by it. Yes. So every time I hear stuff like that as though the knife just twists like like I heard Brenda talk about you’re never free from it because as long as you are people you love. I feel like they’re chained inside the prison and I won’t leave the prison walls because I will always be there in case she ever needs to come out. You know as soon as she’s ready I am there. So you can’t ever go far.

[01:45:30] Yeah. No you’re absolutely correct.

[01:45:33] I mean I think any of us that still have family and we’ll always be connected to Jehovah’s Witnesses or LDS or Mennonites or whatever Cullity religion you know there is because we have to be. They’ve they’ve got people in there and if we love them then you know we want to still be around to help them if they need or whatever. Which you know is such a it’s such a contrast. You know Jehovah’s Witnesses proclaim to you they profess that they they have no true love they know what love is but yet their love is so short short handed. You know they they’re quick to dismiss a person to throw them away like trash. You know whatever happened to the scripture in Corinthians about love believing all things hoping all things never failing. You know their love is so easy to fail. If you if you just say you know one of the questions the elders often want to ask anyone who’s leaving is do you still believe in the faithful and discreet slave and the governing body. You know are those people like if you answer no to that their love is gone. It was just that that conditional. And yet you know here we are people who are being shunned who are being treated like crap by those that we cared for but yet we would all welcome them back. You know with open arms they don’t have to even change who they are. You know right. They just have to be open. That’s it.

[01:47:23] Yeah. My my niece once said like I think she would talk to you if you just don’t talk about their religion. I said I absolutely would not talk about religion if that was the case. Yeah but it’s not and that’s the point. That’s why I’m talking about the religion. There is no way for me to have her in my life as long as she’s in it. There’s no way.

[01:47:44] No it does not matter right. No. Toward the end I know with my own family toward the end of when we would we would hang out.

[01:47:56] You know they knew not to discuss their religion any more. Around me I hadn’t at that point. I still believed in it all. I just had a lot of bones to pick her and I usually I would try not to even say anything but they knew that if they brought up something like let’s just say hating on the gays as my like to say you know you would say something about the gays and I would say well like you know you know I would just say that they’re not choosing that anymore than you’re choosing to be heterosexual. You know I wish I had started to gain perspective on things. So they knew to shut that conversation down. So they just wouldn’t talk about anything anymore and we could still hang out you know but the sad thing is my wife and I noticed and we would talk about it after we left that the conversations were one sided it was just us. Because aside from being one of Jehovah’s witnesses they have nothing else to talk about. And that’s so true. And we also said we would go over there and my wife and we we would leave and we like it’s just not the same anymore. There’s there’s nothing to talk about because that’s all they have. You know we would talk about other things we were getting NS2 or things that are interesting in life and they just really didn’t have anything except for either talking about their beliefs or talking about the brothers and sisters in the Keenum Hall. Yes the gossip. Yeah yeah. Other than that they don’t have anything else. Their life is completely one dimensional. And it’s so sad that you know that’s all they have. So you know like with you and your daughter if you were around her it’s going to end up being about the religion because your daughter would have to bring that up at some point because that’s just sadly what they have.

[01:49:59] And yet it’s that’s their whole world their whole self-esteem. Like everything that it was for us when we were in it it is for them. And they they’re not allowed any other aspect. So it’s it is very sad and very limiting. And then one day like I’ve noticed a lot of people really miss the fellowship you know that feeling of having a community and it’s hard when you leave to not have that but it’s so important to realize that. Like like my husband brought up to me because I said I miss that like I miss that and he’s like that’s not normal. Like what you experience there that’s not normal. And you can see it’s not because it can be gone in the drop of a hat like having a couple friends a couple good friends. That’s what’s normal.

[01:50:46] So having a million worldwide brotherhood of friends that can drop you in a hot second or having two good friends like what would you rather like the normal thing is just a couple good friends that will stick by you and you know really care about you won’t leave your faith your family. You know just having your spouse that loves you unconditionally better than a million people loving you conditionally. So that’s something like I feel like it’s important for us all this extra help as witnesses to remember. Like yeah.

[01:51:18] Yeah. D Is it me I’ll be honest. Because you know I’ve even told my wife I I’m the kind of person I’ve always been the kind of person.

[01:51:30] When I was a witness I knew everybody and a lot of people knew who I was.

[01:51:36] I had a few close friends too. It’s kind of a kind of strange at least when I was young I had some close friends and then as I got older I had no close friends but I knew everybody all Yeah yeah I knew everybody and everybody knew me. But you know as an ex Jehovah’s Witness like I’m finding myself like I have a lot of friends. I don’t have a lot of super close friends and honestly I’m not 100 percent sure that I know how to how to have super close friendships because in the organization you just don’t. You don’t have that many super close friends. Everything is conditional and having any real intimacy I don’t know if that’s the right word for a friendship but any real closeness that’s that’s not something you have that often in the organization because everything is very shallow it’s shallow. You could get moved congregations at any time.

[01:52:40] And you always knew like you if they moved you to a certain other congregation to help out or something like you’d never see those people you were friends with before again. So true. So it really does have an impact on even the way you see the world and life socially. That is very hard to shake because those are the foundations that you were you were built upon her. So that’s an excellent point.

[01:53:06] I love it when someone like yourselfer have had other guests on the show who maybe were married to someone who wasn’t a witness or in a relationship and that person can see things in the witnesses like this. You know with relationships with friendships and you and I being from have a hard time seeing because it’s just the only lens we’ve ever had.

[01:53:35] Yeah and it’s normal to have a few buddies that maybe you met through work to go golfing with but you don’t know everything. Like they used to say at the meetings I used to know the wallpaper and the brothers and sisters kitchens you remember that like you know everybody that well that you know what wallpaper they have in their kitchen. I like it when I hear things. Yeah but you were work Colo. No. And when you look at somebody you knew Valy BAM gone. Yeah.

[01:54:04] Like so and you were always bishes to them too because bad association wasn’t just outside in the world at large right that associates could be right found right in the in the Keenum Hall with you so you had to be so cautious around everybody and always kind of looking with that side of drugged out what they were really out to.

[01:54:26] Yeah so so just. But but it is normal in life just to have friends that you enjoy hanging out with. You don’t have to be like no everything they read because it’s exactly what you believe. Like there wasn’t much mystery there with being a Jehovah’s Witness with exactly what they believe. They know exactly what you do or they wouldn’t be there.

[01:54:46] It was automatic but it was very shallow. Yeah relationships are very yes.

[01:54:51] Very much so. So yeah. The stuff that we’re experiencing today if you have like one person that loves you unconditionally. You are. You know you are on top of your game and if you have a few friends to hang out with like that’s pretty much normal and we just have to realize that yes it’s fulfilling though it really is like you know it doesn’t leave you longing for things like with my second daughter Meghan. I always felt so bad. She doesn’t have a grandma but she has a mom and a dad that loves her unconditionally and she’s happy as can be and she missed that she doesn’t miss having a grandma that would love her conditionally. So it’s really eye opening to see that somebody who hasn’t been and that doesn’t even miss it because it’s not normal.

[01:55:35] Very true very true yeah. Well are there any ways you know that you’re speaking about you specifically. You know we’re talking about the friendship and relationship aspect but are there any other ways that you find it you know your past life as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses kind of still impacts you.

[01:55:56] Oh there are all kinds of weird things that come up like I like my stepdaughter was watching a TV show a very popular TV show about the dead that are walking. And she was like 15 and I was like I don’t think she should be watching that because like what will that lead to. You know she watches that when she’s 15. What’s she going to be. Is she going to be eating people by the time she’s 17. And I thought wait a minute like I don’t really believe this like it.

[01:56:27] It’s funny the things that your mind kind of reverts back to. But it’s fun to discover. Me. I’m. Not. That judgmental. You know that. That doesn’t lead to that. That’s you know it’s just like taking things a lot lighter is so important. And I love not judging people. I love that. I think that’s that’s who I am on the inside. And like I’ve I’ve always hated like we’re not supposed to judge in the religion but you do Yeah judge everybody. Yes. Yes. So not having that is just just incredibly freeing and not having the guilt for every little thing that you do that is so nice. So and I think by now I’ve pretty much been able to. A lot most of it go. But like the whole thing with Trump saying peace and security I. Had.

[01:57:19] To refresh my memory on why that doesn’t mean it’s been declared peace and security now then coming home like some still got me and it shocks me when it happens like you know like goodness we have all the extra witnesses to turn to that. Oh have been that a million times haha. Oh yeah.

[01:57:37] Oh yeah. Those who are listening who aren’t affiliated with the witnesses. There’s a scripture that says something about there would be a cry of peace and security and then sudden destruction has to be instantly upon you.

[01:57:50] And so Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that that verse to mean that there’s gonna be some sort of a cry now this cry can either be We want peace and security because things are so awful or that was originally what they said. But then to hedge their bets. They all said that it could be well it could just be a cry that hey we’ve achieved peace and security and then Armageddon will start. So so whether things look good or whether they’ve got it covered as long as the word peace and security is in there then that is when sudden destruction has to be instantly upon us as humankind. Now of course 1986 was the International Year of Peace and Security. And somehow we’re still here in 2018.

[01:58:41] I’m ahead much more of a crime than a than the International Year of Peace and Security where commemorative coins were made for it. But now any time any world leader says the words peace or security suddenly witnesses get freaked out thinking that Armageddon is about to come. And so I mean I I’ve seen on some of the forums and sites sometimes ex witnesses you know like yourself others you know even just hearing that because we were taught that that was a trigger for Armageddon. Yes. You know it’s just so embedded in our psyche that we hear something like that and it’s like oh crap what if they were right.

[01:59:20] Yes.

[01:59:21] They did that because they do want it on your brain. All that’s right. Anything could be the start again. There is right one funny thing that happened when I was a kid. I think I was like 13 and I was babysitting. A bunch a little kid and how House Los Vegas and I heard this big boom like this huge boom and I thought this is Armageddon. And I try to stay very calm with the children. But my mind was like oh my gosh it’s starting and it was it was blow up at the marshmallow factory so it’s not Armageddon but it just out.

[01:59:54] It’s on your mind all the time.

[01:59:56] Yes. And you second. Well I would say that a world without marshmallows might be as good as Armageddon. Yeah it’s even worse than I thought. Yeah.

[02:00:09] So you know it is funny though how those little things you know and I still find them too little things that creep up or just even know from me.

[02:00:20] I have a hard time even watching things that are like very violence or you know because I just I wasn’t around it so. So I’m very sensitive to that stuff.

[02:00:34] But you know that again I know a lot of my friends who watch all kinds of things that you know that go you know very violence or whatever. And I’m happy for them because I wish I could get get beyond some of that stuff. You know that’s what I think we’ve all got are our things.

[02:00:55] And you know it’s OK to be like that’s another thing like war and all the same stuff. Yeah. You know Alinsky handle it for some don’t enjoy that for stress and anxiety of that so. So it’s OK it’s OK if you enjoy it it’s OK if you don’t like it.

[02:01:08] That’s the lovely thing about being free and being yourself and you can figure that out you know. Yeah. That’s right.

[02:01:20] If you could say anything to your family and friends that shown you. Is there anything that you would say. I mean maybe. Is there anything you would say specifically to your daughter or to anyone else.

[02:01:32] What I would say to my daughter is I love you so much and I’m here for you no matter what. Like there will never be a time that I am done with you that I feel like it’s crossed the line. Like if you ever come to me I am here with open arms no matter what your situation is.

[02:01:52] And that is what unconditional love is and that’s the kind of love I’ve always had for you and always well and I hope that someday you understand like all the things that happened and why because they had nothing to do with my love for you even though it hurts to have your mom leave. And it hurts to feel like you weren’t good enough to come back to a religion for what it had nothing to do with that. And I will always love you and I always think if I pass away or something happens and she gets out and regrets it. I want her to know that I always know she loves me even if she can’t show it. So that’s what I would tell her.

[02:02:35] Oh that’s beautiful.

[02:02:39] I just miss her so much. Like I don’t cry motto try not to cry much but there are times that I just cry all day because there is not a day that goes by that I don’t miss her. You know.

[02:02:52] Yeah I mean I think one of the worst things about shining is that that person isn’t dead. They’re just treated that way. They’re like oh so hard and so I mean I guess I’m one sided. You can still hold out some hope but you know hope well.

[02:03:14] Oh wow I guess I’m going to quote scripture that they hope deferred makes the heart sick. You know it’s true. Oh I hate that I said that there are some good guys. But it’s untrue. You know when a hope is deferred it hurts.

[02:03:34] And you know obviously you know you’re going to miss her until that day comes. And you know I think what you said was beautiful you know that deep down she loves you. She says she’s currently a victim of circumstance. And you know hopefully someday hopefully something that will change. That’s the hope that we used to always hold out for. You know when we were witnesses I used to hold out that hope for my brother who was this fellowship that yeah maybe someday he would come back.

[02:04:02] Now look at now it’s me that’s all I know is that you know we’re so weird that think that they were like yeah we hope you come back to our little bubble com bubble instead of us going to where the real world.

[02:04:16] That’s just so funny to have both perspective. Yeah we really are. We were the ones using to shun them. They never changed but we’re hoping something different. So great docilely. Yeah really is.

[02:04:31] Is there anything you’ve learned since leaving the cult that has impacted your life for the better.

[02:04:40] I mean just everything you know you know off. Yes. The Freedom feeling authentic and real being a law without restrictions are not guilt for nothing. That one day I enjoy it.

[02:04:57] It’s weird like when you’re a witness you always want paradise paradise paradise like that’s what you’re hoping for. And now I look out the window like.

[02:05:05] Paradise like going to the beach and spending the day on the ocean and finding shells. I mean just little simple things that you don’t have much time for as a Jehovah’s Witness that I enjoy it so much you know just those those kinds of things and just learning to be to really think critically about everything is me me just a better person like I really honed in on those skills and.

[02:05:33] And able to think things through and trust my own gut like that is something so important because like when I first left and anybody who first leaves will have issues with that. Because you’re taught a higher life you can not lean upon your own understanding or you have you know your heart is treacherous and and you know you have to have somebody telling you what to do but we are born with these natural instincts that will help us along the way and learning to trust that has been really really just a great feeling and confidence in yourself like that’s okay. Just just so much.

[02:06:08] I mean is there anything that you know appreciate it how you brought out that you know even like the little things like going to the beach and collecting shells like your life now is more precious because this the life you have not that this promised paradise in the future or whatever but this is what you have. And so you know it’s Carpe Adium situation. Or is there anything else that you that you really enjoy anything you’ve been able to do or are there any dreams even that you have for your new life you know since like I felt like I was held down for a long time until my daughter actually left and you know going through that process.

[02:06:55] I think right now my focus is a lot on being the mom to my 12 year old like it’s so nice. Oh I do love raising her knowing there’s no Kalt.

[02:07:05] You know there’s no she. She can be herself and seeing her blossom in that and seeing what a wonderful human she is. It’s made me feel like OK I am a good mom because that was something that I was scared to even have another child like I might leave that child to you know that I might do the same thing but it’s been a totally different experience.

[02:07:25] And having woke up right when she was born it was wonderful you know to be able to come out of that and her be able to see me confident and she admires you know what I do and supports me you know getting the story out there.

[02:07:40] She’s she’s really an incredible little person. So that’s a that’s that’s my thing right now is just raising her and being a good good family person like that song Three Doors Down. If I could be like that I would hear it. And it said just so warm house on a quiet little street like that’s all I wanted.

[02:08:03] I wanted to find that because it was so hard being a witness thinking Armageddon is going to come kill some of your relatives that you love. You know you’re going to be in paradise but aren’t you going to miss them. No. Who is going to make you forget them. All that was a constant stress and then leaving was a very stressful time and I just would listen to that song over and over and then last year on my birthday it came on the radio. As we left the restaurant and I just started bawling. I have that you know. Yeah that’s that’s my life.

[02:08:32] So so my focus has kind of been like you know getting late being free to talk and using that outlet and trying to help people. And suddenly they think maybe I would like to be some kind of counselor or therapist for other people exiting cults because I think there needs to be more help for that cause it’s like it takes an average of seven years I’ve read to really figure things out and that was about the link for me.

[02:09:01] So I would love to just explore more of that.

[02:09:05] Once my daughter’s older you know that’s a beautiful goal to have thought about that myself.

[02:09:13] Yes. And you’re doing a wonderful job what you’re doing is that so. I mean yeah you are. It’s awesome.

[02:09:20] Well I I’m in all of your story. I think that it’s just so impactful you know what you went through and I think one of the things that shines through in all of it is your sincerity and I just think that’s that’s a beautiful quality. You know that as long as you can be a sincere person and stay away from the wrong influences then you know you can turn that into anything. So you know I think that I know myself that’s that’s something that I’m working on too. You know once you leave a call you have to take all of that energy and all that sincerity and channel somewhere you know figure out where to put that. And I think it’s beautiful that you’re you know you’ve got that cozy little home now and you know you’ve got family and you’ve got your friends and I just think that’s so great. And I hope that you know who knows maybe someday your daughter can even come in and join in the fun.

[02:10:26] I really hope so that would be a day. I mean people ask me on my YouTube channel like have you heard anything like it.

[02:10:33] No but her asked me the day it happens it will be an hour like I will shout it out. You know if I if it ever happens and I have that reality that it may not like. Sure. That is the fact. And that is like that’s a hard thing to face. And every single parent or every single person who’s lost their parent I mean all of us all of us who’ve left these controlling religions know that is a big possibility and to say like oh just don’t give up or that’s not really fair to us because there’s a big possibility that it won’t happen and that happens to a lot of people. So what I think is important is we have to go it go ahead and give yourself permission to take care of yourself and to live the happiest best life you can because if they ever do come we want to be like not devastated not torn down not ruined like you in my life I’ve lived 20 years without you do you know what this has done to me. I haven’t been able to be a mom to the other kid. I’ve been you know neglecting my husband like no we have to be strong and be there for them. So that’s one thing that kept me going is like OK I’m going to do the best I can to be happy and healthy myself so that when she comes to me it can be helping her. You know that’s yeah that’s something we all. And it takes permission to do that because we always want to put others like theirs. There is a thing of like self martyrdom that we all grew up with too that we don’t want to let that influence us today. We’re worth it. It’s OK. It’s ok to be happy in and do the best thing for ourselves. That’s that’s what we’re here for. You know this everyday life this is each day you have is the one you’re guaranteed so make the most of that.

[02:12:19] You know as always I want to thank Lyndi for being so open about her life the ups and downs the good the bad and I’m so glad that she’s been able to carve out a good life for herself and her family. And I hope that maybe someday her daughter that still in can open her eyes and maybe see what she’s missing out on. You know I know it won’t be easy for her either if that time comes. You know once a life has touched rather cold there’s not really a lot of easy choices but there’s always hope and freedom is a beautiful thing. So we hope that she finds that to if you’d like to leave a nice message for Lindi you can do so in a couple of ways. You can go to shun podcasts dot com and you can find our episode on the episodes page and leave a comment of support there. You can also join in. Over a hundred of us our own little congregation of sorts at the new Facebook group called shun podcast. It’s a private group and we do some fun things in there. We share quotes that we like to talk about self care share music try to make it a positive place for those of us to land after leaving these controlling groups. Lindy’s actually in there too and you can leave a comment on the post that all make for the episode so you’ll know that she sees it. You can also find the podcast on YouTube under the channel called shunnedpodcast. One word you can also find us on Instagram at shunnedpodcast. Also one word and on Twitter shunnedpodcast. Yes. It’s one word. If you’d like to hear my story and a great insight into how the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses works you can do so at the podcast called This JW Life. Also found at thisjwlife.com we don’t have any new supporters for the show this month but you can always go to patreon.com/shunned and support the show there for as little as a dollar a month. I’ve been getting all the transcripts done enough for the episodes so those are all on the Web site now speaking of episodes I’m back at the regular schedule now. Over the past few months I’ve done some extra episodes released. I think it was five episodes instead of my normal one a month. So it’s been kind of crazy. It’s been fun at the same time I’ve done a lot of interviews as well and I’m kind of looking forward to getting back to the regular schedule for now I know the great way that you can support both the show on podcast and this Jadavpur life is to head over to iTunes and leave a five star review for them. It helps them to get found in the searches over there so that more people can find it you know I actually just got an e-mail this week from a guy that is currently on Episode four of thisJ.W. life and he’s dealing with complex PTSD after leaving the cult. And you know the shining and everything that comes along with it. And he said he’s being helped by the podcast so you know as he makes his way through I’m sure at some point I’ll get an e-mail from him. Hopefully he’ll join us on shunned as he eventually gets around to this maybe even this episode. And I’m sure I’ll probably get an e-mail saying hey that’s me. So yes we’re talking about you and we hope that you know you feel better over time and we’re glad that the podcast can help. So you know any little thing you can do whether it’s supporting financially or with a review or just telling a friend you never know whose life it might help. I’ve been bad about remembering to include the songs that people chose to represent their journeys at the end here. So Linda chose the song If I could be like that by three doors down. It’s a great choice if I do say so myself. Go to the Web site you’ll see things that impacted her listed on her episode post. You also see a link to the song. And actually if you’re on a podcast you can probably see all of the relevant information in the description on your app as well. The song that opens and closes every episode of shown now is no hell yet by fair voyeur and I’ve been getting some good comments about the song must be kind of an earworm seems it kind of sticks in your head a bit. The artist is actually an ex witness herself and we relate some of the comments to her and she was absolutely thrilled to hear them so feel free if you like the song. Feel free to. You can say so in the Facebook group you can shoot me a private message on Facebook if you’re a friend send me an email. Podcast theG.M. dot com whatever whatever floats your boat. But you know she likes hearing that people are enjoying her music as well. And so for those on to her. So until next month. Love others do no harm and go be happy.

Torah Bontrager – Growing Up Amish.mp3

[00:00:42] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we expose religions that you shunning as a tool to control people. I know that the show typically focuses on the lives of Jehovah’s Witnesses because that’s my community. But you know the reality is that as we’ve already seen through a few episodes with other groups other religions other cults you know shunning isn’t something that’s only used by Jehovah’s Witnesses. My goal from day one has been to expose groups that you shunning as a tool to control people. And I didn’t want people to feel alone not only in their own group. You know us as Jehovah’s Witnesses but I’ve always wanted to show that there are other groups out there that you know participate in some of the same things. There are a lot of similarities between all of these groups. So you know the group of shun Jehovah’s Witnesses we’re not alone. There are other groups out there that are doing the same thing.

[00:01:40] And I hope that the show is available to kind of highlight the similarities that we all have.

[00:01:48] I was fortunate enough recently I had someone by the name of Toora Bontrager reach out to me she’s a speaker the founder of the Amish Heritage Foundation. She’s been on MTV True Life that Tim Ferriss blog Forbes.com the Huffington Post and she contacted me and now you know I’m going to share her story on the Shunned podcast which is pretty cool. So you know I learned a lot through this interview. Torah has a Amish conference that is going to be coming up pretty soon. And you know part of the goal of that conference is for the Amish to take back their own stories so that they can sell it themselves. Not everything that you hear is necessarily accurate from a secular perspective. They have things like I didn’t know the Amish have their own language their language isn’t Swiss It’s not German it’s not necessarily Dutch or whatever it’s Amish. They have their own language that they’ve developed over time. There are things that are misconceptions that we have in a secular world that they want to correct. And so in this interview you’re going to learn about the Amish pray learn some new things. I know I did. You’re also going to learn about Torah. Because you know my podcast is about people telling their own stories their own personal stories. So I wasn’t just interested to learn more about the Amish. I wanted to learn about Torah. I wanted to meet Torah and to see what she’s been through in life and what her journey has been. So without further ado let’s go ahead to meet Sara My name’s Tor Bontrager.

[00:03:37] I was raised in the Amish church. I literally escaped in the middle of the night and I’m shunned by my family community people I grew up with.

[00:03:48] All right. So I normally ask people you know how did you come into the religion. Were you born into this. From what I understand that’s typical how it usually works.

[00:04:02] Yes. So I was I was born to be Amish all my my grandparents were Amish still were. I think they’re all they’ve all passed away now. So they were all inside the Amish church remain practicing members. All of my mother’s side of the family the immediate family my aunts uncles cousins all of them are still inside the church. Most of my aunts and uncles on my father’s side are all my aunts but three of my uncles on my father’s side.

[00:04:38] Oh I take that back.

[00:04:40] The the answer all practicing Irish in the church.

[00:04:44] Three of the uncles have left and the rest of the uncles are inside Luchador to get them on that side. And most of my cousins on my father’s side of the family as well. And here’s an interesting twist. Five years after I escaped my parents decided that it’s okay for them to resign from the Amish church but I’m still going to help and that I have had no contact with them for five years I believe and that took place. The last time that they contacted me I had to call the police to get them to stay away because they just wanted to proselytize and convert me to their religion. They’re not fundamentalist evangelical right wing fanatics. Which is a trend very alarming trend that’s going on within the Amish. For those of the four those who escape leave resign whichever one of those three is lots of them are coopted by the religious right and get funneled into the Born-Again system. Wow.

[00:05:51] BUSH Yeah. That is a unique twist. I mean you know that your parents would would be ok with leaving themselves but still Sean you would have expected that whatsoever.

[00:06:04] Yeah yeah. Usually you know everybody everybody’s parents are different. How accepting or tolerant they are if you were not like what your interaction is with your parents if you’re your child that leaves. That varies from from family to family and community to community. It’s sort of you know first of all depends on whether or not the community is on the more strict or liberal and within the range of Amish rule rules or if you are parents personally are a little bit more tolerant and whichever the case may be. Usually after 10 20 years the parents mellow out a little and you know they become a little warmer or more receptive.

[00:06:56] If they didn’t before my parents the exact opposite my father is just there. There’s no Oh no were even remotely positive to describe him.

[00:07:08] OK so then let’s let’s talk about policy talk about you know your parents your family growing up Amish you’ve mentioned that there are different types of communities or you know some are more strict some are a little more liberal for you being raised that way. How did it make you see the world. What was it like being raised.

[00:07:31] Where was your family or your community. More liberal more strict. And how did that make you see the world around you.

[00:07:39] I was born to a strict end of the range within the church and just for a little bit of context there is no central governing authority among the Amish to that says the rules that are universal for every Amish church. So it’s not like the Catholics the pope and the Vatican for example within the Amish they’re the only universal rules are no electricity no cars are motorized vehicles to for transportation.

[00:08:16] You have to drive with some buggy for personal transportation you can hire someone to drive you’re on in their car but you can’t drive yourself around in a car. And and no cameras.

[00:08:29] That seems to those three rules seem to be the only universal rules that apply to every single church. If if someone has electricity or someone has a car and drives themselves around in a car buyers wanting to get slummed and so forth.

[00:08:46] And if someone has a camera now you’re no longer Amish András.

[00:08:52] So I was born on the strip to an audience of of the hierarchy of rules. And that meant for example that I grew up in a community or was born into a community that did not allow bathrooms indoor bathrooms so I would write out to an outhouse to go to the bathroom and that rains son.

[00:09:18] It’s all snow. You went out to the outhouse. Of course you know during the winter you used the chamber pot. You know they think back in the Victorian days. I guess so.

[00:09:28] Well so you are actually use them.

[00:09:31] Yes I I that’s how I was. That was the community I was born into the church type of church I was born into. And then when I was around age.

[00:09:43] Oh and we also didn’t we we didn’t have running hot water. We did have running cold water and we didn’t have gas stoves for example everything was cooked on a wood burning stove or kerosene or something a little Burner’s that were left with kerosene.

[00:10:04] So then when I was around 10 years old my parents moved to a more modern community and in terms of the range once again of the different rules it was towards the very modern liberal end of the Amish church and that meant we now had indoor bathrooms we had running hot water.

[00:10:25] We had propane powered stoves propane gas stoves and refrigerators.

[00:10:33] A big huge deal is I oh my god we have a refrigerator. I don’t know how how to imagine or think about this but that’s a big deal to jump from no fridges to fridges because especially for a big family when you have a family of minimum six kids on average to eat up to 14 which is not unusual you’re having to cook food grow food preserve food all. I mean everything revolves around putting food on the table or somehow preserving it. And once you have a fridge now you can you can prepare more because you can freeze it. Certain things can be frozen that you would not be able to preserve. SNOW Absolutely.

[00:11:27] So so your diet changes and along with that also more I’ve noticed looking back. We start eating more toxic food and growing less getting a little lazier for some reason. So that’s one of the negatives.

[00:11:45] I would say of everything gets easier and then you know it’s easy to pick out processed things and stuff like that.

[00:11:52] Yeah yeah. Lots of processed stuff which is not good.

[00:11:56] And then the other thing that was unusual about that immunity was that we were also allowed to have bikes which which meant that I would be using a bite to go everywhere instead of having to get checked the horse and buggy and we kids could bike to school and we could bike to go up to the Amish neighbors thing get some milk because I did grow up on a farm. And so we got all or not from our Amish neighbors and we also had phones in the barn. So God was fine with phones in the barn and can have him in the house if they were in a house we go to hell.

[00:12:37] So you’re walking the line there laughter. So let me ask you so so as as a child growing up in the more strict environment how what was your feeling. I mean were you happy in that environment. Because it’s all that you knew or did you feel deprived you know what was what was family life like when you were in the strict environment and then compare and contrast that with how it became once you got more modern. How did you feel personally.

[00:13:13] Well personally I was very happy for the more modern conveniences. Of course what you wouldn’t want running hot water and indoor bathrooms and fridges and stoves that didn’t reek of kerosene views.

[00:13:29] Is that something though that you even knew existed when you were in the stricter environment.

[00:13:35] I knew about acid that’s a very good question.

[00:13:39] You know why and if you felt deprived you know because if you don’t know that it exists then it’s hard to feel deprived because it’s just normal you know of course Natalie.

[00:13:47] Yes. No I didn’t. I did feel deprived because when I was around three years old between 3 and 4 around that age for a brief period of time my parents lived on an English farmers in an English farmer’s house and English by the way is anybody who is not Amish doesn’t matter be Chinese. You’re Afrikan your Asian you’re you know European whatever your English.

[00:14:19] You’re not my accents. I can understand how that would be so.

[00:14:26] So my father for a brief period of time was working for an English farmer and we rented their little house on the farm that was attached to the main farm and that was a temporary rental until my father bought our own house because we we’ve moved from one community to a neighboring state. So it was like a temporary fix until my parents got their own house. So during that period of time between 3 and 4 years old around the age I was living in a house with electricity and hot water running hot water bathroom and fridge and stove and all that kind of stuff. Of course I was too young to appreciate a gas or electric stove versus not budget. I understand what was going on that this is different from from our Amish House or the arm shows this hour.

[00:15:30] And the thing that I remember the most. Now that you’re making me go back into your memory land is the carpet the rug the slaughterhouse carpet it that is what I remember that sticks out to me the most that happened that and being in the tub in the bath bathtub with the running hot water. But really the carpet sticks out to me the most. And I know why. Because when we moved to our own house we were not allowed to have have carpets we can have black kitchen area little tiny rugs or whatever. But most of our floors were exposed. And it would get cold in the winter since 40 below zero Wisconsin cold back in the days before climate change to cover those floors were freezing any kids grew up running around barefoot during the summer.

[00:16:26] And you know during the winter as you’re on these cold floors and you don’t have central heating and the wood burning heat is not very efficient. It doesn’t circulate very well. So I was always cool.

[00:16:40] Yes. Sounds like you got a taste of the modernity and then went back words to a more austere environments where you got your Amish home.

[00:16:53] Exactly yes. And also the other thing in terms of wondering if if I knew I was deprived or felt deprived was yes because once again we did not live in physical Commines completely physically isolated from the rest of the world. We would see things in the grocery stores in town.

[00:17:17] We’d go to a hardware store you’d see appliances things like that. And we also then went on long trips or shirts that were too far away for a horse and buggy to travel. Know we would go in a nice heated car or add. And the difference was very clear in my mind. There was that contrast of what we were allowed weren’t allowed and how much nicer the outside was.

[00:17:49] So I know you try to think about things in terms of what I’ve experienced and I know you know as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses growing up we weren’t allowed to celebrate birthdays or Christmas or anything. And you know for us we would see other kids getting gifts for their birthday or having a party or whatever for Christmas. You know all of the celebration. And so you know that was something that we would look at and kind of feel left out of.

[00:18:19] And you know so I can I think I can understand on a level what you’re talking about it has to be hard. Do you think that are most kids in that environment aware of you know the world and feeling kind of left out. Or do you feel like sometimes you would feel left out of course but we would justify it. Like well you know but we’re doing it right. And that’s and they’re doing it wrong. So it kind of a similar thing in your situation.

[00:18:52] So in my eyes you know I can’t speak for for all the other kids her I don’t know if you know these are stories that circulated. Yeah right.

[00:19:03] Well I know for for all the kids to escape or leaper resigned yesterday at some point felt that and I do know that there are a lot of kids especially once you you hit adolescence teens that kind of age where we’re not happy. And you see that more among the boys than the girls because the boys are more exposed to the outside especially if they don’t grow up on farms. So over the course of my lifetime the Amish have become far less agrarian.

[00:19:41] They had to give up their farms because they can’t compete with big agriculture and they had to move to more construction work for example or in the more the most modern communities that they’ll work in factories. The borders will for example modern factories furniture Arby’s whatever the case may be. And so they get exposed to that as the case for the boys to be in that environment it’s not okay it’s wrong if the girls aren’t in the environment. So you will see that I saw that where there was a lot more signs of no signs of of dissatisfaction among the boys mom the girls. There is a significant number as well but it’s harder to detect because there’s this element of you don’t know who you can trust especially if you’re a girl because women are second class citizens. We are by virtue of being born female. We have no rights. We are literally required to obey our husband as part of the marriage vows and to actually follow through on that. It’s not just lip service. So we have no rights. We’re not allowed to even consider going against the rules whereas the boys it tends to it’s a little bit more like well they have to do this in order to make a living. Oh well you know they have to be in this environment to make a living. So you know yeah I mean they’ll be using electric power tools on the worksite even though it’s not allowed it in the home. And women are just don’t have that exposure.

[00:21:27] And then you also don’t know who you can trust to talk to if you’re unhappy about something. That was my message in my situation particularly was that I didn’t know where I could trust. I had to just keep everything inside of pretend to be the perfect good girl and toe the party line. And that was really my best shot at making a successful escape. When I did make the attack.

[00:21:57] Okay so.

[00:21:58] So you mention the not knowing who you can trust is what’s is what would be the repercussions if you told the wrong person how you felt. Is this what is the situation.

[00:22:14] So you know I interviewed someone who is a former Mennonite.

[00:22:21] And he said that or a nonpracticing Mennonite. And he said he said that he and their their culture they were.

[00:22:35] You know if somebody found out something about you it was literally brought up before the congregation at times and everyone kind of decided your fate. Is this a similar situation with the Amish if you are a baptized member of the church.

[00:22:52] Yes. And you break the rules or do something say something or do something that is frowned upon.

[00:23:01] Yes. Then if someone finds out about it and hasn’t had a problem with it and they report it to the bishop or wherever they bring it up in their church members only meetings. And you have to confess and ask forgiveness.

[00:23:16] And in the worst case you know the Senate and the Sinner error or whatever it is considered to be really great then you’re excommunicated for six weeks.

[00:23:28] And and that’s actually the the the highest sentence you can get punishment or punishment being excommunicated for six weeks and then you know theoretically you know you’re no longer breaking the rules and you’re back in good standing after six weeks. But in the case of someone like me was never baptized in the church. I can’t be commanded to go and confess before the congregation.

[00:24:00] You’ve got to you’ve got a little extra layer of protection there a little buffer.

[00:24:04] Not really. Oh really depends on the family. So I’ll give I’ll tell you what happens when when when you tell the wrong person that you want to leave and that person turns out not to be trusted. That happened with with the girl I thought was my friend. So I two friends in when I was a teen and that modern more liberal community. And I told her name’s Rosanna and I think she’s still I mean if she if you were to find her track down she by the way got married and she and her husband after marriage resigned from the church. So she was very unhappy as a teenager. We both were. I thought that I could trust her as she she. She was unhappy about it to me and she was talking about wanting to leave. And I would talk to her about my unhappiness. She was the only one I talked to and thought of course that I could trust. Well she I don’t know what happened exactly except that something happened.

[00:25:16] Maybe she got caught her.

[00:25:20] Her parents kind of she got outed by somebody for expressing something about wanting to leave.

[00:25:26] And she ratted me out like Asher of herself. Yes.

[00:25:33] And I was working at her parent’s bakery that summer. So I think I was maybe 13 or 14 I can’t remember how old I was but I was working at her parents bakery that summer.

[00:25:45] I come home one night bike home from work in the bakery and I walk in to my room and it is ransacked. It’s like somebody from the Gestapo was rifling through everything the drawers were rifled through the bedspread was messed up and the bed was you know sort of you know the mattress was shaken up or whatever like moved everything. I looked and all that my secret places and all my contraband had been confiscated. And I go back downstairs is like my mother didn’t say anything to me when I had first walked in. This was sort of high. I knew something was wrong but I didn’t know this was what had happened. And my father comes in and that night like I just it was hell.

[00:26:43] It was interrogation like I don’t know how how to describe what happened except that it was as if I had been living in Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia and some some you know police or authority officers somebody not invade you know broke into my room and stole all my contraband and and took me in to this room and interrogated me and psychologically tortured me.

[00:27:24] Using you know tell me I’m going to hell. Why did you do this. Tell me all of this and what else have you here. I was sitting at the table and and all the rest of the kids have been dismissed and sent in to their rooms. And it was just me and my parents my father my mother sitting there and my ex parents there. I can’t call them my parents anymore at all ever really. And so they’re sitting there and it was just here was a pile of things on my father like dumps all all the stuff that he confiscated everything he thought was breaking the rules or wanted to see anyway like my diary. There was a dress that to this day I don’t know why he grabbed the dress that I had made but. Because it followed all the rules of it. But that’s another story.

[00:28:18] It was like basic. I refuse to wear it because as an actor like protest against the hypocrisy of the rules.

[00:28:28] They got everything and dumped on the table. And so your contraband consisted of basically a diary manageress diary drafts a radio that I had bought on the down low snitch like body on the slide. Yeah. And and yeah like any letters from from one of my friends in a different state that she she and I wrote these letters and you know she wasn’t happy either.

[00:29:00] But just how is it so sad. Yeah. That’s all it takes to be considered you know quote contraband he felt like something you know how this is so so tough to hear that it takes so little to create such a massive wave of essentially feels like persecution towards you is persecution.

[00:29:23] That’s why you like these words like Nazi Germany and the Gestapo and an interrogation and torture because that is what it was. I’m a teenager 13 14 years old and.

[00:29:36] And I’m not allowed like I’m in an oppressive a situation you know in an oppressive institution that does not allow me to have any rights simply because I was born a female and that does not allow me to express myself creatively and that does not allow me to learn does not allow me to to question or think like all those things are considered sin and such sins so bad that you’re going to go to hell and you die. You’re lucky if you go to heaven. Let’s just hope that we get to heaven.

[00:30:12] So you use.

[00:30:15] You mentioned there something about not being able to express yourself creatively. Is that so. From what I understand the the ban on cameras is because all glory goes to God you shouldn’t be taking any for yourself. So does that. I don’t know if that’s accurate or not but does that also apply then to other creative endeavors as far as I don’t know.

[00:30:38] Can you can paint or draw portraits or something.

[00:30:43] Yes. So the reason that we’re not allowed to have cameras is because of the tent. One of the Ten Commandments thou shalt not have any graven images before me. That’s why in the in the army because pictures photos of ourselves are considered idols you know graven image.

[00:31:01] So it is about giving yeah taking away detracting from the glory of God because some of that might go to you.

[00:31:08] Well no no that’s not them. That’s a different mindset. OK. Yeah. So this is considered worshipping idols like it would be like creating a statue and worshipping a statue and calling that God is that it is having photos of oneself. Is that OK.

[00:31:32] And then apply also to I mean just because you mention the creative endeavors it makes me think you know obviously you mention like making a dress and how it had to be to certain standards.

[00:31:48] Yes. So yes. So let’s talk about the dress for example that we’re not allowed to have bright colors depending on. Once again this specific church sure in the stricter the church the darker the clothes and the more modern and they will have light greens and blues and sometimes red.

[00:32:14] You don’t see that quite as often.

[00:32:16] But some Amish churches do a lot of that color and some may be tan you know version of brown like.

[00:32:24] So you can tell by the style of dress and the color of the clothes exactly what kind of community that an Amish person comes from. How strict how how modern and in terms of the dresses so we so all our own clothes you know we don’t go. There’s no such concept is going to a store and buying our clothes. And every community has its rules. As in terms of how long the dress has to be how many inches off the floor of girls or a woman’s dress has to be literally hominy and just like six inches or inches whatever and it can’t be even a quarter inch off.

[00:33:10] That’s very very strict.

[00:33:12] So the Southern I’m assuming is there any creative expression. Are you allowed to be a painter or sing songs that aren’t.

[00:33:22] Maybe skirt you know biblical songs or whatever like.

[00:33:27] So it depends again from community to community the church and the family itself. Right. And in general your. Well first of all you’re not allowed any musical instruments. I grew up without any musical instruments except the harmonica and that was only in the INS in the more strict community. Some of the stricter communities allow harmonicas but the more modern you get it’s almost as if well to make up for allowing other nice things we have to ban something else to make a backup. So from age 10 onward we were not so close that harmonicas any more respect get rid of them. That said my parents harmonicas stayed in their little drawer in their Berro in their bedroom. They never got rid of it.

[00:34:22] They

[00:34:22] kept it they weren’t allowed they didn’t play it but they didn’t throw it away which was one of the hypocritical things that I was protested against I was unhappy but it’s like okay so you’re stealing my dress but you have a harmonica. My dress is per code. It’s up to date for code but you’re but if you burn it in yes that’s what happens after the long hours and hours of torture and screaming and you’re going to go to hell. My father takes all of the stuff throws it scoops everything up off the table throws it into a plastic garbage bag and takes it outside grabs a gasoline not kerosene gasoline and dumps it in a big bong bonfire and lights it up and makes me watch it watch it. You know everything got burned. All the letters my journal which I was going to print once I escaped like I knew I would want to someday go back in and read those things and all get burned versus I’m sorry that’s that’s so remote is such an emotionally abusive situation there.

[00:35:38] So you know I basically say you know here’s your shame. Watch it burn. You know this is a.

[00:35:44] Yeah. And in terms of oh so I want to answer that. The thing about painting like for example painting was allowed and that’s an interesting question because when I was around 14 I actually learned how to oil paint paint with oils and that community in the more strict ones. That was not allowed but in the more modern Gwatney I’ll throw the harmonicas.

[00:36:11] But but now you’re allowed oil royalty and arbitrary.

[00:36:18] So I didn’t learn how to do that. When I was 14 and that was the one thing that helped me make it through until I escaped. It was the only creative outlet I had. I would sit down and I would I would express myself like I could just get lost in a painting it was like the sort of zen moment it was the only time that I could just exit you know exit from remove myself from all my problems and unhappiness and all of that.

[00:36:52] So you had mentioned earlier you know the difference between someone who was baptized and someone who had never gotten baptized.

[00:37:01] It sounds like from early on you kind of knew that this wasn’t for you and that you didn’t want to get baptized. Is that accurate.

[00:37:13] Yes absolutely yes. So I was I believe. Okay let me start over I’m trying to think of my age as here.

[00:37:24] I was 11 when I made the conscious decision to escape. That was when I realized that my dreams were not compatible with the Amish church. I could not ever fulfill my dreams and hopes if I stayed inside the church. And I also realized at that point that I had always been thinking these things when I was a little kid. I had this very vivid imagination.

[00:37:54] I would read all the books I could get a hold of. So I didn’t learn English until I was six years old and went to school as it and I couldn’t wait to read. I couldn’t wait to go to school so I could read. So I wouldn’t have to depend on my mother for bedtime stories. And as soon as I got into school I learned my ABC is as brutal as possible and I was reading several grades ahead.

[00:38:20] And that was how I learned more. It was the only access I had to the outside world other than observing as is it any sort of an when we go to school or go to town or whatever you know like we we observed it as an outsider and we’re in the world but we’re still not part of the world. But the real exposure the real sort of like what is life like inside those English houses.

[00:38:54] You know I didn’t have that much access other than you know between age 3 and 4. So I got that glimpse through reading books. And those were the characters and places that I read about the things that I learned through the books. That was what I dreamed of becoming and doing. And I was 8 years old for example when I watched the planes go by overhead and wonder what were the people doing inside the planes are they going to China or to one of those places I’ve read about in the books. Things like that. And then at age 11 realized that I would never be able to fulfill my dreams and that also as a woman I had no voice. There’s never ever have a voice.

[00:39:47] So that brings us to questions and I guess the first movie is there pressure to get baptized by a certain age. Yes.

[00:39:58] So there it is again it depends on the community the family the church or whatever generally from society some kids get baptize at age 17 18 others don’t get baptized until later when they want to get marriage. Inside the church they have to get baptized first if they aren’t already. So if you’re from a war in a bigger community with lots of teenagers and and you have peer support to break the rules a lot of them wait until they’re older to get baptized. But in my case specifically because I had tried to escape once I had a failed first attempt after that my mother was on my case night and day to get baptized I was only 15 at that time. And in that community they were trying to push the kids into getting baptized earlier because there’s this concept here. Well if a kid is unhappy or dissatisfied let’s pressure him less you know pressured him into getting baptized because then that will you know now your fate is sealed.

[00:41:12] Now you have vowed to remain a practicing Amish person for the rest of your life until your death. So now we can relax and not have to worry that you’re going to leave. And my mother tried to push me into getting baptized earlier and I knew there no way that I could get baptized or it would cut off certain assets. I would have later on life for the work that I’m doing now for example I would not be able to do business with other practicing members of the church if I were baptized.

[00:41:52] Ok that makes sense. Get get a man get them roped in early. Yeah so there’s that pressure you know behind that person.

[00:42:02] Why do you think they allow the access to books. It’s that it’s really strikes me as a as a chink in the armor. It seems like a weak spot to allow.

[00:42:15] If you if you learn English and then you can start reading other things it seems like it kind of fosters a desire for something else. And I’m surprised they allow that. Is there. You know. Has that ever been an issue.

[00:42:34] Yes. So that once again is something that kind of access you have depends on the community once you get an armed of specific family as well.

[00:42:45] And for contex the Amish didn’t used to send their kids to school until the 1972 Supreme Court ruling Wisconsinvs. Yoder allowed Amish parents to remove their children from public schools and for the Amish who create their own schools and their own curriculum with zero oversight.

[00:43:08] And my mother for example grew up going to public school. She has a public school education. And what I learned many years later was that my mother’s side of the family are actually very pro education and they love learning. If they were not members of the Amish church they would be your typical sort of like professors and academic types and which is a great loss to the world that we’re deprived of. Yes. Oh absolutely. And so my mother because she grew up with that education and she would talk to me especially when I was younger about her teacherMrs. Norman designed the oldies of of of the kids. So I so my mother was very very much for all her other faults and terrible things about her. One thing she did write was educate me and she introduced me to all the books that she had read as a child and in public school. So there I don’t think that she made the connection because she had exposure to all those books she was exposed. All those books you expose a public school education she had an English teacher. And she still remain you know a good girl inside the Amish church so I don’t it never occurred to her that her daughter will depart from that.

[00:44:44] Well that’s fascinating. Yes. You mention departing from that year. That takes me back to you said so you made an attempt around 15 to escape. Yes. Can you.

[00:45:00] Can you take us through what that is like. What does it take for someone like me. I don’t know what does it take to escape. And then what is it like when that escape. What’s it feel like it sounds seems like it would be as such a a heavy burden for it not to work out for you.

[00:45:24] Yeah it was it was just. I don’t have the words like the worst kind of feeling.

[00:45:33] You know it’s imagine being growing up where your own by somebody like a slave for example or maybe even in modern day there. There’s the human trafficking that goes on like trade. You know this isn’t just something from other areas. So imagine that sort of situation. And when you try to escape and you get stopped. I mean what what is your what is going to happen to you. Of course Leahy is the worst feeling. And that’s not. I don’t even have words for it. Just like if I painted it it would be black and dark clouds and heavy stuff on just a blank look on a square like sort of Kalat like where it’s just there’s no color on there except black and variations of black you know I can I can totally understand I mean it just sounds so depressing.

[00:46:37] So what was the attempt. Can you describe what happened.

[00:46:41] Yes so I was in a when when I had you think here that shortly after I turned 15 I made a phone call to late at night. It was run well in the evening around 7:00p.m. or so in the evening. I made a phone call to one of the non Amish taxi drivers. So every Amish community has not Amish drivers to drive them around. If they can’t do that to me with horse and buggy so I called one of the substitute taxi drivers and ask her if she could take me to Holland the next morning early the next morning to catch a Greyhound bus. And this person was. I didn’t know if I could trust her or not which is why I didn’t make a phone call until just the night before and she said Oh my God I wish you would have called a little bit earlier. I could have totally taken you down if. But I have to take my kids to school in the morning and I can’t make other arrangements it’s too late to make any other arrangements so I was like okay don’t worry about it I’ll find someone else. You know no big deal. And of course there’s no one else to call.

[00:48:07] I go to bed that night. Everybody’s in bed that night. It’s 10:00 around 10:00 or a little bit late or something like that. All of a sudden I hear a vehicle pull up in the drive and you are not. You always turn on light. Knock on the door downstairs and I drop my window open because my room was right there above the drive.

[00:48:29] And I heard my father’s voice I didn’t hear what was being said but I was like oh my god this is that lady and I of course thought she had come wrap me out because that’s the mind that you have is as a kid you think everybody else knows your rules too and that that may have been breaking the rules or like you’re 15 years old. Are you going to Holland on your own and. And I just went back crawl back into bed and try to like train. No please God don’t let this be you.

[00:49:07] You know what I think it is. Blah blah blah blah blah. You know like you it was like trying to just blurt out everything and make the world stop and try to go back in time and make it never have happened that I made that call.

[00:49:22] And like several you know ten minutes later something I hear the slow stumps stone stones start of the steps of stairs.

[00:49:33] And I my room with the down the corner around it’s sort of an L shaped hallway and I’m praying that okay the steps are gonna stop. You know this is just my father wanting something with one of my brothers or sisters. No. It keeps on coming down. Stop stop stop. And that night I got no sleep. My father made me stay up all night. Talk about sleep deprivation and all sorts of other kinds of interrogation techniques to try to break you.

[00:50:11] Where were you going. Like a yo. Why did and why are you going to leave. Or where we gonna go.

[00:50:17] You tell me everything. And in that moment it was I knew that I could either confess everything and pretend to be the perfect good girl.

[00:50:31] From then on to try to make my second attempt successful so they would think that I had reformed and I was now no longer have any thoughts of leaving or I could just be outright you know F you and win it. When you’re that in in in their face where you’re just play f you like. You’re not going to tell me what to do anymore. I mean if you go to that extreme. What are they going to do. You can’t be in the middle it had to be one extreme or the other. The perfect good girl who’s completely totally fully reformed or the perfect like f you all to hell. And I chose the good girl route because I wanted my parents to know that I left because something was very very wrong. I laugh because there is some serious shit that’s going on inside the church. There are major issues in the church and in our home that is not right.

[00:51:41] The abuses I suffered endured the physical violence and verbal violence and in the name of the discipline and the psychological and brainwashing religious brainwashing those things. Not to mention a sexual assault that runs rampant in the church. Those are wrong things and you cannot cannot claim to be the perfect people and the godly people when you’re aligned that shit can happen.

[00:52:07] And that’s true. Yeah. And then there was a reason for me to leave. A valid reason that I could not be part of the hypocrisy. And it wasn’t just a rebellious teenage act. I have thought these things through and I had already read the Bible from cover to cover each guy and you know figured out that this is not the way to live if you actually believe Jesus basic teachings of being kind and compassionate if you choose to believe that’s what he actually said. You know but that’s how I interpreted it at that age and so yeah. So I thought okay well this is going to having this long term view. This being the good girl will be the only way to try to get the point across. AKRIGHT escape. So this is going to come as a complete and utter surprise once they do make my second attempt. And you know surely at that point they can think about well this wasn’t just some rebellious teenager or like what happened. It would make them change and wake up which it didn’t. So in retrospect I wish I just said fuck you all to hell.

[00:53:22] What would have happened then.

[00:53:24] What is so I was trying to play that went out of my head when you said it. You know you give them the big fuck you. What do they do they kick you out do that. What would they do to you or with you at that point if you’re seen as just unruly an unmanageable uncontrollable. What do they do.

[00:53:44] Well I would have wanted to it would have loved it if they kicked me out. I would watch it. You know like or they would have said you no you can’t be here any more. In fact I actually would have it when have happened that I really have been there over just said fuck you I’m leaving right tonight anyway. Like I just packed up and left that night.

[00:54:05] And that’s an option. So you could have done that.

[00:54:08] Well it’s not an option that they would have given me. It’s an option I would have taken I would have said fuck you and your like you’re you’re not standing in the way I’m packing up my shit right now and I will call the police on you if you try to stop me. Do they you man. I take that back a little bit. I didn’t even know i could call the police. Now this is what I want kids to know that you can’t call the police about these things. Not that they would have helped. That’s another whole story.

[00:54:38] There’s there’s a moment in another episode I did with a lady who escaped the Felda escort and I just this just really reminds me of something she said.

[00:54:48] There was a moment where she realized that you know the power they had was the power she gave them. To an extent. And that there are laws in the United States. And you know maybe she couldn’t call the local police because they were pretty much owned by the LDS but she could call the state troopers or whatever. And and there were people out there that legally could do something.

[00:55:15] Well yeah but I would just like to add my you know commentary to that is I don’t want listeners to to buy into it that the power they had as the power we give them we children don’t have that awareness at least we only saw it doesn’t mean she was an adult.

[00:55:36] OK. OK. Right right. No I understand technically you know of course they took the power from us. They never gave us anything to begin with.

[00:55:45] Yeah right. And they keep us repressing oppressed and ignorant and all of that and they says that everything on the outside is evil and bad and they do own the police as well they’re in cahoots with the police. If any Amish kid gets into trouble with the law like this agreement is that the police report it to the bishop and the bishop. We handle our own crimes which they don’t.

[00:56:07] I mean really so they have the police in their pocket as well. Wow.

[00:56:13] Child care services will not show up if they get a call from an Amish child and that’s completely against the law that’s against federal and state laws.

[00:56:24] I mean that’s that’s the orchestra that we’re addressing through the Amish Heritage Foundation and the conference in September. And we’ll be talking about you know here the issues.

[00:56:37] This is just a little bit of an aside but you mentioned you know how kind. Let’s say in the Bible Jesus was you know kind of the opposite of the culture and environment. You felt that you were in do and again this may of course vary over groups or whatever but. Do Amish consider themselves Christians yes.

[00:57:03] So the Amish are a form of Protestant Christianity. It’s their own interpretation. So we grew up with with you know the old and new testament and we were told to read it but not analyze it.

[00:57:24] Don’t think too hard right.

[00:57:26] Exactly. And to make it at another interesting level to that.

[00:57:32] And a strict very strict communities they don’t allow you to read English. And in the super super strict some offshoots of the Army source and trigger Amish for example is one of them where you’re not even allowed to have read the Bible in English and the Bible that you are supposed to read is in German which is not Amish. I mean I can read German. I don’t understand German or very little of it on it so it’s very similar to the situation with the Catholic Church. Way back when when they had mass in Latin and and the peasants or the illiterate couldn’t understand what was going on and they were told this is what the Bible says when it didn’t stay that way.

[00:58:21] So you have now made an attempt to escape. You made an Onix unsuccessful attempt and you have gotten through. No you’re sitting at the table or sitting there with your dad all night talking about this. How do you transition from I’m leaving to being that good girl and how do you how did you work that out so where you essentially got their trust so that if you didn’t make a second it sounds you could not only kind of make a points and that you know hear the good girl left but also be more successful in that attempt so that all night sleep deprivation take place in my room and not at the table the table scene.

[00:59:22] Right right here.

[00:59:23] You know when I got ransacked and almost confiscated my diary a horrible sin of sense.

[00:59:34] So yes.

[00:59:35] So what happens in the early morning hours. I’m up all night. I’m being forced to stay awake all night. I’m not allowed to fall asleep all night long.

[00:59:46] And in the morning one of the taxi drivers comes along to pick up my my mother my father. Me and a couple elders of the community and we go off to a neighboring church as bishop.

[01:00:04] So not the Bishop of our community but some other neighboring communities Bishop who runs there who is a therapist to troubled teens Amish teens. And that’s another bullshit joke beyond jokes. There’s no such thing as mental health services in the Amish.

[01:00:23] There’s a little bit more now than there used to be over 20 years ago when I had to go see this bishop. And also I just have to qualify and say that the mental health services that are provided is only invited in in the context of you must remain. This is why you should stay inside the church.

[01:00:49] It’s of course administered by anyone who without a training or not so.

[01:00:56] So this bishop self-proclaimed therapist to troubled teens sits me down and will tell me what happened and why did you want to leave Ben. Blah blah blah you know he like all pompous and thinks he’s like really you know something. And.

[01:01:17] That’s like right through.

[01:01:21] I knew exactly what I needed to do. How exactly how I needed to behave. What answers I needed to give him in order to be pronounced reformed and cured. And and I had to make it into a game in order to not go insane and lose it. So I just had this running commentary in my head while he’s asking these questions and you and I created this little competition for myself.

[01:01:54] I wonder how quickly I can get him to say that okay. She’s she’s completely you know she’s cured she’s reformed no more therapy sessions and I believe I did it in two sessions.

[01:02:11] Wow. Not a very good therapist. He’s not very discerning.

[01:02:19] Or damn good. That’s right. You played him.

[01:02:29] And of course having that secret victory soothe you know the pain a little bit. You know it’s just this failed attack. And I was put under Amish house arrest which means I was never allowed to do anything by myself be alone without adult supervision and baptized adults are numbers in the home. I could not be alone with my friends. I had to quit my job at the bakery and was never allowed to even go back up the road to the Amish farmers to pick up milk.

[01:03:10] Nothing I had to always be either with my mother my father or some other church mother.

[01:03:17] Wow is there a time limit on that.

[01:03:21] The time limit was nine months later when I made my second and then successful escape.

[01:03:28] So that would have been what. And so maybe you got so you know assuming you didn’t know Mangham other terms. Would that have just been until maybe you got baptized.

[01:03:40] Yes. All this time there was a serious heavy lobbying. My mother used the whole well you know you’re saying she manipulated that like it. Well you’re now late this reformed or whatever like you agree to abide by the rules and and see the error of your ways and blah blah blah. Now you know you need to get baptized. And it was all like yeah like it is she would not let it go let up on it. And and it was got to the point where as I could not maintain my good girl image if I did not get baptized like I had to escape before the next class for 4 4 kids started to get baptized and that was all. So so from September through me that was a period in which my mother was just lobbying and pressuring me to get baptized join the baptism class in the spring or in the summer like the next one that would start a that must have been some intense pressure.

[01:04:52] I can only imagine because you have a desperate mother who is really trying to corral her child and you on the other hand are so intent on not being in a you know not living that life. So how did that progressed as you went on. So I mean I guess you knew you had x amount of time if you wanted to make another attempt. How do you plan that out.

[01:05:20] And how did you end up executing that so my plan was so so the the plan was to leave via the Luddington Park ferries. So in Michigan that was the community we lived in at the time was located near Lake Michigan Luddington which had a car ferry service that took you across to Wisconsin. And I had one of my uncles who had left the church. One of my paternal uncles enoughs Bontrager is his name. Remember that name because we’re going gonna get back to it. He had a breach. I knew that he was on that side and that I could call him to pick me up. Once I got to that side and I could bite to Whitington it was like 9 miles or something not very far. So that was my plan. But the car free service only was seasonal only and would not start up again until May and the baptism classes weren’t to start right around that time I wasn’t sure exactly when it was going to start. I believe it was late summer or something like that and it ends two weeks before the carvery season starts. My parents moved to a completely different location in Michigan. And that was another reason why I wanted to. Play sort of play the good girl. If what if I was going to play the good girl I wanted to keep playing the good girl so we wouldn’t move because that was that was the only way I could I could get away with once this perforin season started up and if we moved in with somewhere else then I wouldn’t be familiar with the geography. There wouldn’t be something like that available you know access to public transportation is basically nonexistent in the Amish are these kids going to get to a greyhound or Amtrak or something like that. It’s pretty difficult to do that. So throughout the nine months my parents were like they started eventually despite me pretending that you know I was a hundred percent committed to staying inside the church. They decided that they were going to look for a different community and the community that we lived in at the time that local community had lots of problems. There were horrible things going on. There’s this whole other backstory that we didn’t even get into about as like oh there’s lots of of disputes among the members and all of that and a lot of people were thinking about moving anyway. But then when I tried to have that failed attempt then that just escalated the mood. The timetable for many parents for example and that the typical solution for parents of children who have attempted to escape over let’s move that fixes all our problems any problem life just move that’s going to automatically fix everything.

[01:08:28] And so we moved to a community just outside of Lansing which is way down south of the state towards further down south. And I didn’t know anybody I mean in terms of like where the taxi drivers in and where the nearest train station or bus station. How to even get there you know all that kind of stuff. And their baptism class was going to start up that month.

[01:08:58] How

[01:08:58] assured of no pressure.

[01:09:00] Yeah.

[01:09:01] And I believe that was another part of the reason it’s because of all the disputes going on the Luddington church amongst the members they know a part of it was I’m not sure they were even offering a baptism class that you’re not or whatever either. So that had something to do with it. And yes so I’m like What am I going to do. Well luckily my good girl act paid off because once we moved to the Michigan that lower Michigan community outside of Lansing I was allowed to go work in the Irish paper again. That one down there and out of sight of adults revision I was allowed to be on my bike again. Oh you know like well you’re like well we trust you now like you like we’re all going to start trying to make a new new start and blah blah blah. And part of it too was that looking back it was it was my mind my father trying to project this over a perfect family image and blah blah blah. So if if they didn’t let me go to the bakery because the Amish people had needed someone to help them then you know they would have to explain you know the issue.

[01:10:16] Oh well you know blah blah I don’t know you know like how I know her totally makes sense because that would have been a black eye on the family if they admitted from the get go you know from day one that you weren’t the perfect child.

[01:10:27] Right. That I was reformed you know because everybody already knew it. Try this escape. I mean word travels through the great mind faster than the internet really wow.

[01:10:37] So they already knew that down there.

[01:10:40] Yeah yeah. They already Holling because it was the same. You know everybody you know I mean the gossip galore.

[01:10:47] I mean you think like Tamzin is gossip about her.

[01:10:51] When I get there because I mean I know gossip is really bad among Jehovah’s Witnesses there’s not a lot a lot going on in life.

[01:11:00] Got half of us up there.

[01:11:02] Yeah. It was like this. Well will this bishop per Nazre cured or whatever reformed and like we parents like were were like the perfect parents to you know kids you know like we’ve we’ve made it like that we have this perfect relationship with our child.

[01:11:17] Now you know Korth.

[01:11:21] And so if they and the baker people needed me you know they had they were dependent on finding someone to help them and it would not be Amish Christian. You know a Szolnok over here. And those in need.

[01:11:39] Just being a good group.

[01:11:42] And so the one clincher was that the house we moved to wasn’t Amish a five hour early. With the Amish don’t always build their own house. It’s like they’ll buy existing houses and then like just turn off electricity and and remove whatever appliances aren’t allowed to be in there and replace them for example. Interesting. Yeah. It doesn’t happen to like the very very super strict ones. I’m not sure if they allow that properly nowadays because of just economic reasons. You know it’s tough to build a house from the ground up. But yes. So until we got our new phone line in the barn we kept the phone lines active inside the house for business purposes because we need to take people take dozens calls for the call. So I was scared like I can’t make phone calls during the night to my uncle Herbie Bell in Montana and all this time I’ve been calling him cleped at night. I’ve been sneaking out of the house and I knew that I could be in Montana with him. Once I did figure out how to skate on this and so I was just like okay I have no car ferry service.

[01:13:04] I don’t know how to go how to get to anywhere around here. And I can’t even make phone calls. And this baptism class is starting up and I just can’t take it anymore. I was just getting to that edge for me where I was like I’m going to I can’t make it inside anymore. So luckily for me because of the bakery I got that little bit of freedom.

[01:13:32] And I would bike past the Amish schoolhouse which had a phone in in the schoolhouse for all the Amish to use it. And so I stopped in at the schoolhouse and made my calls to both uncles and I called my Wisconsin Uncle Enos and told him you know like if I could leave tonight I would. I just I just can’t take it anymore. And he said if I came over picked you up tonight would you. Would you willingly even. I’m like you know I had this moment of like oh shit just got real with me like I can’t not say no. But it was like so unexpected. So the whole escape did not go at all as how I had planned. So I go home that night and you know I leave the schoolhouse a blight on home. And I had packed all my things that I wanted to take with me into a little box when we made the move for Luddington to just outside Lansing because they and I didn’t unpack. I knew that this was what I would take with me. So I kept it in the box. And so it was just a matter of getting my birth certificate and Social Security card and fax vaccination card out of the safe. And you know try to find movement when I could sneak into the safe downstairs. Well my mother wasn’t around and none of the kids were looking and take that stuff out those documents. And so I did that and the whole night was just surreal. It’s actually a little bit hard to remember that night because it happened so fast and until you know I went to bed. I remember not being able to fall asleep I set the alarm and finally did fall asleep and all of a sudden woke up and freaked out because I thought I had slept through the alarm that while that would be so much panic. And in fact I had somehow gotten the little hand and the big hand turned around. Now. Nervous and and my my uncle had told me that he’d meet me at a certain time and he had mentioned on the phone and all he said you know I’ll wait I’ll wait all night if for some reason you don’t show up at the allotted time at all. And it was like around 1:00 o’clock I believe it was something like that. He said you know I’ll wait until morning. And I had told them that oh no I’m going to be there I’ll be there. So the way they’re not going to happen. And and I was you know so happy that he had mentioned that and thought of that. And so I woke up and this panic you know when I got together my stuff and I had to sneak down these creaky stairs that KERTH Yeah.

[01:16:52] When the old story you can read it read this story like in my basic escape from the Amish interview that Tim parasitized quite a few years ago.

[01:17:03] But you can find that on his blog but it was go down this creaky little stairs and I’d memorized all the spots. That’s sweet. No matter how much WD 40 I put on. Went down in the living area and then head across the dining room into the kitchen to go out the back door and circle around the house to try to like are on the edge of the yard and maintain cover because the moon was shining that night was on a full moon or an actual full moon so it’s pretty bright outside and Jaso. I ran ran down half a mile. I couldn’t take my box of all my prized possessions. The only thing they cared about I couldn’t carry with me because I could not. What if I. Once I’m down stairs and crossing over through the dining room and one of my parents wakes up and sees me Hamah how am I gonna explain. I could explain. I’m going to the kitchen to get a drink of water. But my heart stops. How is it I was not not going to be successful that night. So I just had the clothes on my back 170 bucks that I had. I took out of my father’s wallet that night and my little sort of laptop size duffel bag. It’s not a duffel bag it was kind of like a briefcase size thing that I took with me with my documents and a couple personal items. That was it. And to end the story I know where it’s like 339 said have no words. I actually have to wrap it up too because I have another meeting. Yeah. So so otherwise they’d be talking longer but. So I just want to add that there’s plenty of information out there about my story you can just Google my name. Toora Bontrager and you can also go to my Web site and you can find the links to all the interviews I’ve done before as well. The Huffington Post won and the Huffington Post one I want to point that out because that’s where I talk about how my uncle inas Bontrager started raping me.

[01:19:26] And I also talk about my oh you that your uncle who you escaped with.

[01:19:32] Yes you are. Come on. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:19:36] So I also hear this all this stuff you know that goes on goes into trying to escape and then you think you’re going to a place that you have somebody understands you gets you in. You’re going to be safe with in less than a month Harvey youth raping me in Montana. And that to this day I don’t know how often because it was just an offer from me through December until I figured out how to escape him because the first night after the first night he told me if you ever challenge one I’m going to kill you. And that bought my silence. He was a violent end and I had no doubt that he would kill me or send someone after to kill me if he ever suspected I’d ever go to the police or tell anyone.

[01:20:30] So how did you get away from him.

[01:20:33] Well so I during a winter break from high school I came up finally figured out a plan which was to use the excuse that there are no jobs for high school students during the winter in Montana which is true.

[01:20:50] There were no jobs. It was this very very tiny town and just thrived on tourism during the summers. And my argument was you know that I want to be self-sufficient independent and make some money. And I called inas in Wisconsin the uncle who helped me escape that that night. I called him and asked him Hey would you be able give me some work after school in your furniture shop. He says yes. So I got that confirmation from him and then told Herbie his older brother Blake already talked to us. He said yes come that they’ll pay for the ticket for me to to go to Wisconsin. And that I presented it in a way that did not threaten him clearly because I was still alive. And I got to Wisconsin. My heartbeat was divorced. Didn’t have kids in the house. It’s just me in the house. I mean I was in another. Once again talk about being in prison and feeling like a hostage and innocent on the other hand was married and had kids. So I thought I’d never once occurred to me that that the same thing would happen weekend the first time his wife Barb both on overnight business trip he does the same thing. And it was just like you know once again like no no no words to describe how it feels. It’s like one of the thoughts that crossed my mind this was I guess this is just what uncles do. And. And I couldn’t go to the police because hard would kill me if I reported illness then you know that would Wooler him.

[01:22:41] So Harvey was doing it too.

[01:22:43] Harvey did it all from from May through December when I was in Montana. What happened was they picked me up in Michigan it took me to Wisconsin and put me on a train out to party. So that happened in the span of four four days during my escape. Andrew Yeah. Yeah.

[01:23:04] So I just like wait it out the semester.

[01:23:10] I couldn’t not be in school because my emancipation was dependent upon me staying in school so when I was 16 years old I became emancipated as a minor which is why I say in my parents. Even if it were a legal status my parents are not my parents or my ex parents it’s like divorcing your parents right. So I got all the rights as an 18 year old as long as they didn’t break the law as long as they abided by the rules that they you know that an 18 year old have to abide by including I had to be in school until I was at least 18 so if I dropped out of school in an effort to get away from illness I would lose that. And besides like where was I. I didn’t even know who to go to. I mean I had I didn’t have my driver’s license. I didn’t have a job. I didn’t. Yeah.

[01:24:08] So you end up I mean I know you’re on a time time crunch here. So how is it that you eventually end up away from all of these people.

[01:24:18] Yeah. Yeah. Was soon as school was over then I by that time had establish contact with some people in the Wisconsin community that I lived as well as an Amish kid. Before my parents moved to Michigan so it was another part of Wisconsin. So some of those the Amish there had left the church and one of them they went to school with actually he had he married by the church. They needed a babysitter. So that was my you know way to look at a place to stay. They they let me live there in exchange for babysitting and so I would babysit part time you know like whenever they were at work and and then I look for a job at the same time you know some other job.

[01:25:15] Had like three jobs were it myself not sure when you don’t have a lot of secondary education. It makes it more difficult to earn enough of a living.

[01:25:27] Well yes and also I couldn’t get any jobs that pay anything beyond minimum wage. Azzam yeah yeah yeah.

[01:25:34] I mean that that’s a big problem with Jehovah’s Witnesses too so I totally understand that it’s hard to find find your place financially in this situation. Yeah. So. So you get free from everybody. How long have you been out now.

[01:25:51] Twenty two years.

[01:25:53] So May 24 This was my 22nd anniversary 22nd year anniversary.

[01:26:01] That’s awesome. Now how many years were you in.

[01:26:06] Fifteen. It was late in the year I turned 16 so I wrote about it several months before my 16th birthday. I was like almost 16 years. So now officially I mean I’ve officially been out of the church longer than I’ve been in bed and I was getting and I really like that. Yeah yeah yeah. And I remember thinking about that for a year. Right. Right as it within the first year of my escape thinking wow I wonder what it would be like once I hit the 15 year mark you know where I’d be like cool and. And it seems like such a long time ago and at the same time it seems like not much time has passed by. It is very easy for me to go back in time. I sort of like time travel in that sense you know where I’m not I still speak English or Amish fluently. So that’s one of one of the things I still speak Amish fluently. I’ve not you know removed myself in that sense whereas that is so it’s easy for me to go back into that those memories or remember the good things about the stuff or think about the kids how I can help them or what needs they have. So it’s kind of interesting. Yeah I don’t quite know how to how to explain. I mean definitely I’m very culturally Amish. I’ve always maintained that and been it’s been important for me to maintain that.

[01:27:36] So what do you like about your life on the outside. What do you what do you like about the freedom that you have now.

[01:27:48] What do you like about the freedom obviously freedom is something like But what are you doing. You know what can light your fire what gets you excited about this life.

[01:28:01] The that’s such a good question that and trying to think of how to answer.

[01:28:11] I just love learning that’s always been who I am is to learn and just let life experience everything that there is to experience and do everything there is to do I mean like I I have so many dreams and end things on my wish list. And so many talents that.

[01:28:34] Innate talents I have that I haven’t yet had time or resources to develop know music for example is is high on my list.

[01:28:44] That’s my childhood dream to become a musician which still happens and I don’t feel that that might. My life is not going to be I have done what I was meant to do and until I’ve I’ve you know I’ve become a musician.

[01:29:08] I feel you know so everything else that I’ve done is amazing and huge accomplishment. You’re going to an Ivy League school. I mean just the fact that even like managing your high school is incredible for an army. Yeah yeah. You know like learning how to fly a plane at age 18 traveling to about 30 countries living in New York City and loving it. And now you know Jane writing a memoir which is hard work I mean harder than I ever thought it would be things. I mean I’ve experienced a lot. I’ve lived a very good life in terms of all the things that I wanted to do when I was a little kid. I mean I’ve I’ve done it except becoming a musician which is my very original during I could say that that’s really impressive you know to be able to do all these things at such a young age and to have so much time to pursue.

[01:30:03] Now you know what you want to pursue. I know that you know you’re doing this interview ahead of this this Amish conference that’s coming up. Can you can you tell us a little bit about the conference about what you’re hoping to discuss about maybe some of the issues that you want to tackle or just you know what is what is it that people should be looking forward to.

[01:30:26] Yes. So the name of the conference’s disrupting history cool and reclaiming our Amish story so that’s exactly what we’re doing. Like that we’re we’re taking back our story which has been coopted by academia a so-called expert authorities on the Amish just google them and their names will pop up. They’re not experts on US omission and they have no right to call themselves that. Our story is like our are the narrative of of us Amish has been determined by them and also the entertainment industry. Reality TV for example and comedy were were just a laugh line. And those issues need to be rectified. I mean these are serious serious issues where there’s this collusion of what we call church and state. You know the outside coopting our story and colluding with the state to allow it to allow the Amish as it as a people to remain frozen in time. So Wisconsinvs. Yoder really sealed that fate by. It was basically just the outside the state the federal Supreme Court level saying well we embrace ignorance and and that’s great for for the Amish and never mind that we’re actuallyU.S. citizens. I mean what about the rights of the children. So it’s really about addressing those forces that are happening so it’s not just the Amish clergy elders or whatever violating the rights of children it’s also the state and the federal government.

[01:32:22] And how do they pander to that religious pressure.

[01:32:26] Well yeah both both pander to both. Also just for their own purposes because of whatever other political agendas other groups had. It was easy to latch onto as Amish because that was what we were not engaged with the world. There was no representation in the court for us children during coffin versus Yoder no representation. And even though theU.S. is the only country in the world that hasn’t ratified theU.N. Convention on the Rights of the child. I mean even Somalia has ratified that. I mean for God’s sake not the old it but at least they signed on like the US hasn’t. And despite that there was still a law at that time and still is. I believe that children need to be represented like somebody needs to be speaking on behalf advocating for the child in a situation like that and no one did. So this is serious like real heavy serious issues that we’re addressing so it’s going to be you know this educational issue and then talking about how about sexual abuse for example special with me too. Now people finally understand the general public understand sexual abuse issues in a way it never did before. So much easier talk about that now thanks to meet two movement.

[01:33:55] And then just about women’s rights and the fact that women do not have any rights at all inside the Amish church.

[01:34:04] This is 2013 we’re in one of the Westernized countries supposedly them freest country in the world.

[01:34:14] And there is a population and entire people that do not have any rights as women. Right.

[01:34:24] So songs. So can you give us the winds and where’s the commission that’s coming up. Is it something.

[01:34:34] You know it seems like it would be a good idea to go ahead and you know kind of plug that for those universally in your audience who might listen.

[01:34:41] Yes if you’re listening please please go buy your ticket. There’s an early bird ticket sale going on through August 30 and we’d love for you to you can go to the Web site W W dot Amish heritage that word or you can google my name and you will find us everywhere. Your chickies you can get those on Eventbrite or on Facebook or on our Web site. And it’s a two day conference September 28 29 in Lancaster Pennsylvania. Easy access fromD.C. New York and Baltimore anywhere in the Northeast region via Amtrak or car. And it’s going to be awesome. Our keynote speakers on Friday the keynote speaker is a Pulitzer nominated attorney author and attorney Marci Hamilton and Saturday’s Keano is Gaelen Gingrich is a member of the Council of Foreign Relations and a Unitarian Universalist minister and in New York City. So it’s going to be very interesting. And he wrote a book by the way called God ribeyes. For anyone wondering if it’s going to be a very interesting conversation.

[01:35:56] No that’s really cool. Now I’m going to give you one chance here. You talked about taking back you know your own story as Amish people after you had a moment here to to correct some misconception or something that was out there that you would like to to speak to.

[01:36:17] Feel free to go ahead and do that now.

[01:36:22] Rumspringa it’s not what you think it is a ritual that is really not at all. So come to the conference if you want to find out what rumspringa Ashley is or means otherwise shoot me an email or you know go to my go go on social media ask. I would love the conversation to be public.

[01:36:46] OK. You say go on social media. Where where would where would someone ask you on social media where would be the best place look for Twitter.

[01:36:59] The Irish heritage foundation I think that the handle is Amish heritage. No I take that back on Twitter the handle is Amish Foundation.

[01:37:09] And you can also find the facebook page the handle on Facebook is Amish heritage foundation.

[01:37:19] Which heritage foundation.

[01:37:21] It’s all right well I will make sure that all of this gets gets posted up so that people have an opportunity you know to have that conversation.

[01:37:31] I think Ramesh ring as a I said it anywhere near close enough. I hope you know that I know that that’s something that that is a fascinating concept as far as what most people know about it but I think it would be really interesting to hear from you exactly what that is.

[01:37:50] So if somebody else doesn’t ask the question I will.

[01:37:53] So yeah yeah yeah. In short it perpetuates the problem is it adds to the issues and you know we’re not given a choice but let’s have the conversation online.

[01:38:06] All right. That sounds great. Well I appreciate your time appreciate you reaching out to do this and for sharing as much of your story as you could and in a time that you know was provided. And yeah I just wish you the best and I hope that your conference is a huge success.

[01:38:21] Thank you. Thank you so much. It’s been really awesome to have this conversation and I appreciate it.

[01:38:30] As always I want to thank her for being so open about her story. You know I know it’s not always easy to relive the past.

[01:38:38] A lot of us have some some really painful sometimes ugly things in our past. But you know the past kind of informs our present. And when we discuss these things openly we let other people know that they’re not alone. So it was beautiful to hear her be able to share some of her story. I hope that it helps others. You know I just recently started a Facebook group called shun podcast where we can actually all get together and share our stories support each other even across these different groups. So please join in. Just look it up on Facebook. It’s entitled Shunned podcast. It’s two words. It is a private group. I will have to approve you but no worries there. We’re already doing some things like discussing career challenges encouraging self care on the weekends sharing what we’re doing there. Some of the previous guests are there. You can say hi to them. You can also tell us some of your own story if you like. It’s not just that typical JW a group not necessarily focused on following the ins and outs of what the cult does. It’s about us it’s about our stories. It’s a place focused on personal story. That’s kind of reflective of the podcast itself. So come join in no matter what group you come from. Again the facebook group is called Shunda podcast if you’d like to support the podcast. You can do so in various ways. One way is to leave a positive review on iTunes. When you put a review up on iTunes it helps us raise in the rankings and by doing so then maybe other people who are looking for help can also find us. So it’s really a pretty important thing to do. The other thing that you can do is go to patreon.com/shunned and there you can support the show financially for as little as a dollar a month. The money that I get I put right back into the show. Believe me I’m not getting wealthy off this but you know I use this money to go for things like the Web site for hosting and you know we’ve got this big push where we’re doing transcriptions so that we can have more content on the site for SEO which means more people can possibly find us the next episode that I’m going to release we’ll be out around the beginning of October. It’s going to feature Lyndi a former Jehovah’s Witness. She’s had an interesting life.

[01:41:00] And you know now we’ve all been shunned by various people. But one thing I haven’t covered yet I don’t think is a person who is shunned by their own daughter.

[01:41:15] And you know it’s one thing to be shunned by your former witness friends. It’s one thing to be shunned maybe by your own family who raised you. But when you raise someone and then you know they’re around a cult they become one of those people and then they shine you when you leave. You know that’s that’s another dimension. And you know Lindsay has a really interesting project that she had put together to try to reach her daughter someday. So we also feature that the music today for the show is by fair voyeur. It’s entitled No hell yet. And if you’d like to hear my personal story you can do so by listening to the podcast called This JW Life. It’s also found at thisjwlife.com both the Shunned podcast and This JW Life can be found on YouTube now. You can find them at Sean podcast oneword or thisJ.W. life and I even do some in person videos. Now do some videocast on the Sean channel so Sean podcast on YouTube. So let’s go ahead and send this out like I do all of them love others do no harm and go be happy.

Sydney is shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:41] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we expose the religions that you shunning as a tool to control people. Today I have an interview that I did with Sydney at the end of the interview I left in a part where I invite her to a local upon the first. And I actually got to meet Sydney for the first time at the Midwest upon the first near Indianapolis at the beginning of August so it was really cool to get to meet somebody before I even got to release their episode. And she got to meet a number of other ex Jehovah’s witnesses at this event. So I’ve been able to meet her in person and through this interview. And now you have a chance to meet her as well. Be sure to stick around after the interview. I have something new and I think it’s pretty cool that I’m going to announce that I think alike.

[00:01:27] So let’s go ahead and meet Sydney I am Sydney. Twenty eight. I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I am shunned all right.

[00:01:39] So then how was it that you came to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the first place.

[00:01:46] Well I would say technically I was born into it because my father’s parents were Jehovah’s Witnesses and he was a was witness but my mother her my dad dated when they were real young and they got married really young and even though she grew up in a strong Christian background she ended up converting to being a Jehovah’s Witness when they were married. And the funny thing about it is my mom was baptized and my dad wasn’t baptized but my dad’s dad was an elder and he married them. I don’t know if he was an elder. Yeah. I don’t know if he was an elder at the time that he married them but they got married pretty young I think my mom was like 17 maybe. And then they had me when she was 20. So she was a witness for a few years before they had me and he still wasn’t baptized. But yeah I would say that I was I was pretty much born into it even though my dad wasn’t excuse me he wasn’t super regular obviously but my mom was and then when she got disfellowshipped I was like 3 or 4 when they got divorced.

[00:03:08] So from that point on it was a split between a Jehovah’s Witness household and a Christian household.

[00:03:16] Gotcha. So your mom was disfellowshipped. Do you know you said you had a split between a Christian and a Jehovah’s Witness household. So I’m assuming that your mom stayed with the Jehovah’s Witness religion.

[00:03:33] No it was actually my dad that stayed because like I said his whole family was he has eight brothers and sisters and they’re all I mean they’re not all like baptized but they were all raised that way. So my dad’s side of the family they’re all still Jehovah’s Witnesses. My mom actually she when she got disfellowshipped. She never really whipped back or never really tried. I’m sure she got remarried Oakhurst each year. Then my step dad was not a Dover’s witness at all. And I think she had a really hard time with how she was disfellowshipped it really put a bad taste in their mouth because this is just like hearsay within my family. You know people will admit to things or won’t admit to things but apparently my dad had cheated on my mom with my aunt her sister and then because he wasn’t baptized he didn’t necessarily get in trouble for it.

[00:04:37] And the elders kept encouraging my mom to work it out with him and she was obviously not wanting to do that you know or I mean she tried for a little bit but then she ended up wanting to be just free of it. And I think that’s why her first relationship outside of my dad was really rushed. You know rationally have anywhere to go.

[00:05:05] Sure she can have a stranger cell from the family you know and this guy that she ended up marrying after my dad was like her biggest support I guess because he was he was friends with both my mom and my dad and it’s the whole it’s the whole thing.

[00:05:23] But anyway she she didn’t like the fact that he didn’t get in trouble and then she got disfellowshipped because of you know I’m divorcing my dad and they didn’t even like have a formal meeting for her. They just disfellowshipped her over the phone. Well they didn’t even give her the time of day.

[00:05:45] I thought really supposed to be given a chance to prove your repentance.

[00:05:50] Yeah I know. But I think because she moved in with another man they were just like oh well she’s just not even worth you know investigating what happened and she’s the one who’s baptized suffusing to be the one who was going to be punished for it.

[00:06:04] Anything without that magical baptism if you can avoid that you can skate on a lot of things. But if you are and you get baptized you’ll get in trouble for all kinds of things that the person who doesn’t get baptized can seem to skate on. Even though I mean like you said your dad was around the organization much longer than she was.

[00:06:25] Oh for sure for sure. And you know to what’s super sad you know that you say that as far as you get baptized in then it’s like you know the whole world is split on your shoulders and all this responsibility in my step mom.

[00:06:40] In time we get baptized together.

[00:06:43] And to this day I mean now we’re we’re we’re definitely not talking we’re not we don’t have really a relationship anymore but for a long time after I had left and was disfellowshipped she would just say to me and me and I just wish you hadn’t got baptized things would be so much easier I could see you would not feel this way.

[00:07:03] And I’m thinking from a Christian standpoint I think well this is one of the most horrible things you could say to a person like I wish you hadn’t dedicated your life to Jesus and made it possible to be with him after death because I want to talk to you right. So selfishly even if you’re whatever like I’m not anything anymore I’m not Christian I’m not I’m not anything I don’t go to a church and you know I don’t even know what I believe anymore just because I was so like messed up that way. But I was so sad that she would always say that because it’s like that is such a cop out for you because you have a relationship with my sister and with my brother because they are not baptized. They don’t go but yet they smoke weed and they do all these things that I don’t even do. And yet I’m being punished because I don’t want to be a witness anymore and whatever. I just think the whole thing’s messed up.

[00:08:01] Oh no it absolutely is messed up in every way. Just like what you said there about you know the way she she treated your baptism and said that she almost wish you had been baptized. That’s an interesting way of looking at have had looked at it from that angle before.

[00:08:19] So you know when you were a Kurd obviously now like you said you were you were kind of living between this Jehovah’s Witness household in this you know kind of more just christian household. How did that impact you as a kid.

[00:08:42] As far as you know the world view that you had because you were kind of torn between the two.

[00:08:50] Yeah. It was not easy. I mean I know there’s a lot of people who you know they’re forced to do it and they don’t really have another choice. So I felt that I was blessed to have an outlet through my mom in her family. When it came to that as a child. But my mom suffered from a lot of issues obviously after leaving now and going through the trauma that she did. And as a kid being with her was hard too because she suffered from a lot of mental issues. I mean she wasn’t like crazy or anything but she just was a very impulsive person. And she worked a lot of jobs because she was like a single mom. And because of like her strong Christian background she felt the need to marry a man instead of just dating them you know. She felt like she was sleeping with another person. That it was you know she wasn’t going to hell for it. So she would marry these men she would date instead of dating them. And also there were a lot of turmoil with my mom and saw the world go be babysat by like mom to have my answer my grandmother. And so I guess that I I was really close to all of them and they were kind of a reprieve for me but at the same time there were a lot of good qualities about my dad my step mom when I would go there because they weren’t really regular when I was a kid we would go on a Sunday is that I would be with them cause they had every other weekend custody type of arrangement even like I would go on Sunday is with me. And it was fine other than like I would get spanked a lot. I’m taken back to the bathroom a lot because I didn’t really know how to sit still in Oleg differentness Sunday school or just not going to church at all you know.

[00:10:57] Yeah you’re expecting a small crowd to sit for two hours in a boring environment and not move.

[00:11:05] But before long to expect from a kid.

[00:11:07] Well I think too I did. There were other children around my age at the Keenum hall that we went to but I didn’t I didn’t really click with one because I came from. Also on my mother’s side of the family who are very Christian they’re very mean they go to church. And my one aunt was like really big in her church on the other and she doesn’t necessarily go to church but she’s a very strong believer in so there would always be teaching me about God and how you should be and how you should treat other people. And you know and I thought while this is cawkers I see that they are doing that and they’re saying that and I will go to my dads and they will go to a Kingdom Hall and they will be like well we need to do this this this and that. And then like you know a week later when we didn’t go to the meeting they does do whatever they want and whenever they wanted list you know like excuses that the witnesses you know they would use teaching tools at times that they wanted to teach you. But then they never did it themselves kind of thing.

[00:12:13] No I mean that continued on into my teenage years so that’s interesting because that’s that’s the opposite of what as a young witness were taught. I remember being taught you know that essentially we as witnesses we talk the talk AND walk the walk.

[00:12:32] All right.

[00:12:33] But you know these other Christian religions they were just these things that you know these people put on on Sunday and then they took off as soon as they left church and they just went and did whatever they wanted and then they came back Sunday and put that personality back on and were certainly you know their church personality.

[00:12:51] But you know as this podcast is shown through a lot of the stories when you start getting into who what’s behind the scenes a lot of what was taught at the Keenum Hall in a lot of what the brothers and sisters professed to believe is not what they acted out in their home life and so it is very different. So what was your childhood like at home. I guess from the witness perspective what was it like when you were at that side of the family.

[00:13:28] Well you know it’s funny it’s my step mom. You know as she would I guess say this to me a lot as a kid but as an adult she has mentioned it more than a handful of times she would say you know I always felt bad for you because you just seem like a very depressed and sad kid. And I would say like I would think top editors say anything really because I don’t really know what to say to that. Because in my mind I was thinking I was a happy kid like you know I think the most depressing part of my childhood.

[00:14:04] You know I do want to hurt their feelings and saying theirs but I felt like maybe I was sad because I was with them you know I fell more myself in happy when I was with my mom’s family than I was with them and then I think that you know because this is a young kid like I said we only went once in a while.

[00:14:30] My step mom was not baptized. Even though she was like an avid Jehovah’s Witness and all her family were Jehovah’s Witness like her mom and her sisters and stuff like that so. Things didn’t really pick up in to being role serious until I was about 13. And before that I was able to go to school and have school friends and have school friends come over and play in sports and do all sorts of stuff because like I said it was legal once in a while thing. And then when I was 13 18. Well go back a couple of years and when I was 10 I hit my parents my step mom and my dad had my little brother and then they can use that as a manipulative tool to try and get me to want to live with them.

[00:15:23] So when I was 12.

[00:15:25] The custody arrangement changed between my parents and my mom signed papers before she really read excuse me read them.

[00:15:35] And mind you my dad does. There’s a lot of good qualities about my dad but my dad is a bully. And I think just the trauma that my mom has had in the past with him and his intense severe hatred for my mother. He bullied her in to signing all custody to him and my mom I don’t think really realized what she was signing. And so I only visited her like every other weekend and now I’m living with my dad. And they had full control over.

[00:16:12] Everything I did.

[00:16:14] And. You know I think that they really start there. I mean that Mester up to you and she really know what to do after that cause you know she only had me and she was in at the time. Abusive relationship with a man that I don’t remember if he ever laid a hand on her but he was extremely verbally mentally abusive been like controlled all the money and everything. So my mom was like in a in a really bad place.

[00:16:47] So we both got to be hard for you to you know being so young you suddenly not only has the chain of custody changed and that now you’re with your dad wore but also you’re in this totally different environment more your life had to change a lot.

[00:17:13] Well

[00:17:14] yeah for sure. Because to you know my dad he’s a contractor so he works all the time. My step mom was a nurse she wasn’tR.N. so she worked all the time and we ran a horse farm. For me it was like for my sister to especially because she’s seven years older than me. She’s my stepsister but you know we had a lot of horse chores. We had a lot of house chores we had a lot of things we had to do because both our parents worked full time. My dad was like 80 hours a week maybe and I said mom you know she would have a lot of overtime and on call and also my sister and I it was like clean the house make the food do the barn chores you know you need to get good grades in school in harm’s way to a lot of pressure on us as kids to do it. We had a lot of work we had to do. And I didn’t have to do that at my mom’s. Yeah I had to do homework and stuff. But you know we lived in a small house and there really wasn’t much to clean then. She liked to sit down and play games with me and he and all board games and dice games and we just we just spent time together so.

[00:18:30] Like you got a job.

[00:18:32] It was actually when I was a teenager I got upset because I don’t like horses I don’t like riding horses that really it’s had me years and I’m like I’m doing all these chores like yoga. Give me some sort of compensation for doing these tours like I know I’m your kid but I want nothing to do with this. And so I convince them to pay me eight dollars an hour to do it so.

[00:18:58] But sounds like home home was was pretty you know busy. So yeah. So I mean it’s it’s kind of no wonder you didn’t go to meetings super regularly and such because. How would you find time.

[00:19:16] Yeah it’s definitely the biggest part of it. And I think Penny scares me.

[00:19:20] My step mom she I think she used that as an excuse like I’m tired I’m not gonna let somebody bully me into going to a meeting when I’ve worked this many hours in a week like you know I think she felt like that’s my religion don’t make me feel bad for not going it’s not like I’m a non-believer. I just worked really hard this week. So mind your own business kind of thing you know. And then when I was 13 it was only obviously a year after lume with my dad my mom kind of had a total mental breakdown. At one point in Hurn I got to a really big fight.

[00:19:58] And I stopped going over and seeing her on my own. Because I couldn’t deal with that with her.

[00:20:07] And then that was the pushing point where my step mom was like you need to study with somebody I think you need something in your life you can’t just you know not have is.

[00:20:19] I think you will. You know it’ll make you happy. It’ll get you all you know out of this depression and it all gets you whatever. Besides the study here’s here.

[00:20:30] You know what you need. You need an escape. You need to escape into this thing here and forget your problems.

[00:20:37] Exactly which is what it ends up being for a lot of people.

[00:20:41] What I think too because my mom was disfellowshipped and really didn’t have a whole lot of interest at the time of being a Jehovah’s Witness anymore. It was a lot easier for them really.

[00:20:53] But look it now you’re a Jehovah’s Witness and your mom is disfellowshipped you can’t talk to her because she’s disfellowshipped.

[00:21:00] So now you know it was I think that was a word I didn’t even think about that. Pretty manipulative.

[00:21:07] And then my mom being who she is she is she wants to be Christian. She struggles a lot with some religion because she desperately wants to be in a relationship with God and have all of that but because of how messed up she became after being a Jehovah’s Witness. It’s been I mean she’s in her late forties and it’s still really hard for her. She says she still doesn’t really have a place she feels like she can call home when it comes to a religion. So for her she was. She was I think glad that I was studying to be a witness because she’s like oh what if it is the truth. Right. There’s still that in the back of your mind if you haven’t gotten to that point where you know it’s not you know. So she’s like what if it is I’m I’m glad my daughter studying and maybe I should try to go back to the Kingdom Hall and get reinstated and we can do it together. You know she immediately was like well we can do this together we can you can be baptized and I can be reinstated and then really really close. You know my martyrs.

[00:22:15] Yeah. Oh yeah yeah.

[00:22:19] So I mean it was kind of come in from both sides but in the end my mom was just like she just tried to be like OK well that’s how you feel that’s how you feel. I’m just gonna let you do your own thing and hopefully one day we can reconcile something you know.

[00:22:39] So the reality show IMO emotion in school. Did you have to change a lot. You know a lot of witness kids have trouble in school. You know it’s hard to not stand for the flag salute not Duni the holidays and such. You came originally from I guess you know the more dominant Christian family because you’re staying with your mom or wants that changed over. Did you have to go back to school with a new outlook on Thoon and really start changing.

[00:23:16] Oh my goodness yes. Because that was so hard for me too because you know I had one really good friend because I’d switch schools when I moved in with my dad.

[00:23:26] So I switched schools to the school that I went to until I graduated. And I met a girl and and I became really good friends. And to this day she’s my best friend still. And so when I moved in with my dad and I couldn’t celebrate birthdays anymore. I couldn’t really do anything like that stuff that they do at school. I didn’t necessarily. I guess protest in the not saluting the flag and stuff until I was studying at the age of 14. But before that like I would lie to my parents and be like oh yeah you know Rachel’s just having a party we’re just getting together for the volleyball team you know secretly it was her birthday party when they found out about that and I was so grounded. So it was a birthday party and it wasn’t a volleyball party rise. So yeah I I couldn’t you know I couldn’t do any of that stuff anymore. And then when I started studying it was just like well you know I’m not even gonna stand let alone salute an arm. It really didn’t feel super awkward until we had a veterans assembly where war veterans came in and you know they were doing a flag ceremony and I was sitting there and everybody was like really looking at me like how can you disrespect these men up on stage like that. I definitely feel really awkward in that situation. But I still sat there because this was what to do.

[00:25:03] So yeah that off really puts you in a bad situation and then you know having to make that change as a kid. It’s just really tough to be pulled in so many directions. What about at the at the Keenum Hall. How were you. How were you received when you you know we’re back with your with your dad. They kind of see that maybe as an opportunity to seize upon you a little bit.

[00:25:38] See that’s weird cause it totally didn’t happen like that. My dad doesn’t go to the Kingdom Hall. I mean now I think he goes more so because of a because of current circumstances. But even then he would only go to the memorial.

[00:25:56] Oh he he never went to the Kingdom Hall. But my step mom would go you know occasionally to the meetings and she’s like I think you need to study. So what happened was there’s two kingdom halls there’s one that was only 20 minutes away 15 20 minutes away from where we lived. And then there was another one that was 45 minutes away from where we live and we live in a really rural area. So it’s like you kind of. There’s not a lot of kingdom halls to choose from.

[00:26:24] And at that time they weren’t necessarily really picky about which one you go to just because there wasn’t a lot of people excuse me at the halls.

[00:26:32] So what happened was the one where we went to when I was a kid that was only a couple minute you know 15 minutes away is that moment like going there because the women always looked at her and judge Durran you know she felt like if her shirt was a little bit too low she got like rude glances at my step mom is very much like you don’t like me then keep it to yourself or like don’t look at me that way.

[00:26:54] She’s very much like I don’t know she didn’t like that kind of judgment.

[00:26:59] And so we started going to this other kingdom hall and that’s the one that my dad’s sister went to. So here’s my aunt found a girl who at the time I think with like maybe three or four years older than me and so I was like 14 to like 18 or 19 and very sweet girl I really clicked with her. But she went to this kind of hall that was far away so that became her new hall. We didn’t know anybody there and we really liked it because there was a lot of people my age there was a lot of you know pre-teen teen age young 20 year olds and it was a very active. Kingdom Hall as far as there was tons of parties. There were tons of cookouts and tons of get togethers. Because I loved volleyball and they couldn’t play volleyball in high school anymore. I actually found a whole group of people at 10 or 12 people that loved to play volleyball.

[00:28:03] So all of us at Keenum Hall like after a meeting like a night meeting we would go drive 10 minutes up to a volleyball court and outdoor volleyball court and play volleyball for hours after the King holiday.

[00:28:17] After the meeting. Oh yeah. So it was really super fun Hall to be a part of.

[00:28:23] Yeah that’s that’s rare. A lot of us were not bluff. Ruth you have so many opportunities for her association on housing meltdown and a lot of lessons though.

[00:28:38] You know I think that that was a definite draw for me too because I didn’t have a lot of friends in school. I just had like a handful maybe two or three really good friends in school but not like you know kind of felt like I was in a popular career old league.

[00:28:55] Everybody liked me and wanted me to go to these things because I’m the new girl and I’m doing so God and I’m so like faithful and all the things that I’m doing. And so I guess I felt the love bombing in that way where they’re like yes another new young person that we can hang out with and influence.

[00:29:13] So yeah it’s a big deal when a new person comes in and you feel like you have a new opportunity for friends because you know everyone in the congregation is especially among the young people is is pretty starved for friends.

[00:29:27] Yes. So it’s always you know an exciting time when there’s a new face.

[00:29:34] How did things you know how did how did it progressed to the point about TISM with you. You know from the time that you start living with your dad again you know up to that point a baptism. Well you know it happens so fast and in such a short amount of time and I think the biggest push.

[00:30:00] For me with it was the influence of all the young people. And the cool thing at the time because I had to distance myself from my friends at school. I could play volleyball anymore with them.

[00:30:17] And you know as a witness you were constantly talking about the Bible or talking about something that just happens to relate to what you were talking about and not really self or like distancing themselves from me. And then I got to where I felt uncomfortable talking about it with other people at school because everybody started looking at me like the weird girl who’s the witness so I actually ended up just becoming. Like a hermit crab other than the girl that I’d studied with at this new kingdom hall had a cousin who went to my high school and she was one grade up from me and she wanted to study with this with her cousin.

[00:31:05] So she would go pick Michelle up and she would pick me up and we would go hang out at her house.

[00:31:13] The girl I studied with we go hang out at her house and the girls she studied had a brother who was my age and went to because our school our high school was like the regular high school but then there was an arts school. And he went to the art school. So technically we would have been in the same school but he went to the Concord Academy. And anyway I became super fast friends with him and with Michelle incel because I had Michelle in high school with me. Then it was like I felt better about not having my worldly friends anymore because it was me and Michelle against everyone too. And actually Michelle and I and my step mom all got baptized together and I think it was just I was always studying. I went through the what does the Bible teach book with the girl I studied with. And then we progressed in to where we would just study like the Watchtower and Awake together and then we were or we read the way the awake together and then we would do studies from the theocratic ministry school book together and then we would do Tuesday night bible study we would study that book which at the time I think was the Daniel book you know so I was just really progressing really fast and I did all of my extra time that I had outside of all of my home chores that I had. I was hanging out with them I was going up a field service with them. I was really getting close to the entire family.

[00:32:55] Because the girl I studied with she had two other sisters and I really liked them too and I would hang out with them and I really liked her mom and we just had a lot of stuff together and yeah I got my step mom to go with me to do a lot of stuff and she was studying with some with an older lady at the hall to her and the lady she studied with became really close fast friends and the lady she studied with her husband was an elder.

[00:33:25] So we hung out with them a lot too and even though my step mom she was still in that mindset of like you’re not gonna bully me into doing things that I can’t physically do because I don’t have the time or the strength because I still work a full time job and I run a horse business because we boarded horses all also it wasn’t just our horses at one time we had 18 horses in our barn alone so it was a lot. And so like on a day to day basis if we weren’t going to the Kingdom Hall or I couldn’t convince my step mom to go out in service with me or take me out and surveyors or whatever.

[00:34:07] It was Dalys during the school year.

[00:34:10] Wake up go to school come home clean the house get something out prepared for dinner go down clean the poor stalls feed the horses bring the horses in and then come back out to the house cook dinner or at least check on it to make sure that like everything’s cooking just fine and then I would have time to study for the Kingdom Hall for whatever the next meeting was. And then after that we would eat dinner and then if I had like two seconds to myself I would sit down and watch tv with my step mom. We were sitting American Idol our bachelor or something and then I had to go to bed and then it was like if I had to do any homework I had to fit it within that time frame or I could do it on the bus on the way to school. So it wasn’t a student. I mean I graduated I do a3.0 GPA but it was mostly because it took like art.

[00:35:07] Office assistant or library assistant it wasn’t because I was like in all advanced English or something so I have to ask you so just what you’re talking about there is something that like that is something that that kind of resonates with me I’ve just been thinking about lately and that is that so I know myself as an adult I’m a little bit of a workaholic and I’ve just been kind of looking back at my past.

[00:35:40] You know growing up in an organisation where there is so much to do you had so much to do not only with all the study and then you know the meetings the service and then all these horse and just home chores and everything.

[00:35:58] I’m just curious do you think that that has impacted you as an adult. Do you think that it has had any impact on how busy you need to be or do you think or was it just something you did back then and you were kind of done with.

[00:36:13] No I really I. Because my dad he’s kind of a perfectionist when it would come to the house like a teaching home and he saw you sitting on a couch watching TV. He would literally point out seven things that you could be doing instead. You know. And so for me owning my own home. Now of course I’m not that anal retentive but I do when I’m stressed. And you can ask anybody that’s been in my home more than one time. I compulsively clean when I have stress in my. Also it’s not just it’s not just like oh I want to dust this it’s no I’m going to rearrange my entire house furniture you know underneath the couch in the bed. My husband he’s just like he does not get his late wears whatever he’s looking for. It was over here last week and it was over there that week. You know this is like a walk in the house and it’s like I live in a house every time he comes home now. Oh I think that’s definitely because of how much I had to clean and how well almost OCD my dad was about stuff because he’s he’s actually I think he has HIV and a lot of perfection blood type issues with that kind of like what you talked about in your own story to say that’s me you know Hamman have things a certain way in if other people don’t think that way well you should just think that way and this is how you should do you know. And I think I kind of in that way too now because he was that way not because I’m naturally that way. Right.

[00:37:53] Yeah. Oh just wondered if it made you have kind of a need to stay compulsively busy.

[00:37:59] I mean just an idea but I have changed all that in to a sedentary lifestyle. I am always busy but I’m knitting crochet a lot got this shy constantly using my hands like I’ve never just sit down and watch TV. If there is TV on. It’s not something I want to watch it’s something I can listen to. That’s why I love podcasts like listening to self-help and stuff like that. Or you know whatever because I just I’m constantly crocheting and knitting.

[00:38:31] So yeah I feel you there. I mean not crochet or knit but I’m always online and watching TV and then I’m online either responding to e-mails or learning about some business thing or just whatever.

[00:38:45] But I’m always busy and at least mentally if not physically. Yes. So I’m usually busy physically too.

[00:38:57] So how do things you know kind of play out as you were a teenager you know you’re baptized you know you obviously kind of were all there for a while with your friend here and everything. How did things kind of progressed. You know as you went on into young adulthood.

[00:39:17] Well the boy that I had mentioned the brother of the girl that I was studying with I fell madly in love with him and he was I guess that with me too for a while.

[00:39:34] And we even went to because we weren’t you know obviously allowed to go to prom or anything.

[00:39:40] Well Jehovah’s Witnesses and both of our schools had prom at the same time I went to his junior prom with him. And I mean we’re best friends. We never officially I guess dated because we were like 15 16 17 years old when we were going through this.

[00:39:59] But I mean he was like all eyes on him for three years.

[00:40:02] You know and my stepmom didn’t really like it. And my dad certainly didn’t really like it.

[00:40:16] So I got irritated because I’m like I’m truly innocent person like this isn’t like I’m not trying to do bad things with him like I just I just want to be in his company I just want to be friends with him I just want to whatever.

[00:40:32] Well then at one point I think I was like 17. He decided he doesn’t feel that way for me anymore. And that was devastating. And then it was kind of like oh now I can focus on other things because I’m not worried about him anymore. And I’m I was really active with a lot of my other friends of the kingdom heart and life really brief period. Like literally three weeks I dated like I officially dated an older boy in the Kingdom Hall and my dad did not like that and he made me end it with him. So I was like they just they had a way of making me feel dirty or making me feel like I was not being innocent with boys when I realized seriously was like I had never really kissed a boy or done really anything until I had kissed the first boy you know and it was super innocent and aside we were like making out all the time.

[00:41:34] So anyway that is it is always funny to me how how six crazy they are in the religion how. How every time two people of the opposite sex are seen together in pretty much any capacity. They assume something is going on. It’s it’s really funny that they claim that you know the world outside is sex mad but that’s all that is all there Malha. Yeah.

[00:42:10] And for me that wasn’t even something I wanted to necessarily do. I mean obviously your teenager your home. Know you think about it but it’s not something that I was like Oh I’d better be careful because I might lose my virginity to this person. It wasn’t about her. You know so I just I don’t know I became a really extroverted butterfly. Being a Jehovah’s Witness whereas before I was kind of very introverted and I liked myself a lot when I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I think that’s what I did and I think that’s what made me flourish as one for the short period of time that I really was dedicated to it.

[00:42:52] And things started to change when my dad made me break up with that with the boy that I dated that was in the kitchen Moha mostly my step mom Camilla convinced him you know he’s from an uneducated family. He was home.

[00:43:12] He doesn’t have asG.D. he is missing mom’s very pro college which I know Jehovah’s Witnesses aren’t but because she went to nursing school and she was a nurse. She’s definitely pro. You need to go do something with yourself and you’re not going to settle for somebody who didn’t do that for themselves. Like which. I think that’s a good thing. Look I’m not saying that it was bad that they made me break up with him.

[00:43:36] But as a young teenager do the things that the excuses that they made I thought were really harsh you know but they’re like Oh he comes from an uneducated family and he had like we’re something wrong with his eyes and he had really thick glasses you know but he was like literally the coolest person I’ve ever met in my entire life. He was so fun. Super nice really funny. I don’t care that he had that glasses. I’m more of a beauty on the inside. Like seriously I don’t care what anybody looks like. I just love people for who they are. And I think that they didn’t they didn’t believe me in that or they just whatever they didn’t want me to be with him because they didn’t like him.

[00:44:18] And so anyone who is keeping up appearances that they wanted to keep.

[00:44:23] Yeah yeah for sure. And so that’s when I started to be like Well listen I go to school I get good grades.

[00:44:33] I go to the Kingdom Hall every meeting and I the ready for every meeting even though I’m only getting four hours of sleep at night because I’m one down with anxiety and I have insomnia. And I have to keep up those good grades in for my own standards. I have to study for every meeting and even though my step mom didn’t send it for every meeting or I would be like hey mom let’s study for the meeting that’s coming up. And she was like want to be there she’s like I’m just too tired I’ll do it later. You go ahead and do it you know. So I was always study and then when I was in high school during the time that I was baptized I actually used that as always an opportunity to write an English paper about something they had to do with being a Jehovah’s Witness or I sat out of English class because they were learning about Greek mythology and I would write a paper about being a dobs witness or you know it just whatever the situation was I tried to use it as an opportunity to study more and I had I remember what it was called but you’re not because you were in it longer than I was I left in 2008. But they had that disk where it had like every publication on it and a our library. Yes yes. OK so I had that. Yeah. That would put it in the computer and I would just research so much stuff. And like I always had questions about things but didn’t necessarily want to go to the Ellers for answers. I felt like I could find the answers on my own. And so I just was you know every spare moment that I had was on the computer researching stuff through that particular city round. So anyway.

[00:46:22] I didn’t really have questions about the religion itself.

[00:46:26] I didn’t really have I guess a problem with the religion itself. It was. It was the problem that I had with my parents was really the reason they eventually laughed and then growing into an adult and I see the you know hypocrisies in the things and how I’m treated and how things should be. And that’s what’s I guess turning me so like so sour against it now. But when I was leaving I was so depressed I get so depressed because nothing I did was good and like I said you’re in good grades in school. I was studying for the meetings I was going to meetings and I was going out and service. I was doing all the horse chores I was cleaning the house. I was making dinner. I was washing my brother. If I had a spare second a time where they would let me leave the house I would go hang out with my Jehovah’s Witness friends you know. And nothing was ever good enough. And it got to a point where for instance sorry I’m going on an aside tangent but this is like really important to my story. Because around Christmas time and my dad picked me up from high school and my brother we were sitting in a parking lot waiting for my brother and there was a Christmas song came on. Now mind you I know that it didn’t say anything about Christmas. You didn’t say anything about Jesus but it was a song that they played causes crime. I can’t even tell you which one it was I don’t remember a lot of snow man jingling bells or somebody doing something very neutral wrong you know. But to me and this is what I think my dad didn’t realize or didn’t care to realize. Was for me. I celebrated Christmas with my mom when I was little. And that’s a really sore spot for me. And it wasn’t that I necessarily missed Christmas but that time of year for me or with my mom and my grandma was extremely special for me.

[00:48:29] So anyway I said Dad will you please SHUT THAT SONG OFF we please change the station.

[00:48:35] He was so belligerent about the fact that I asked him to change that song because I was ridiculous you know like I was taking being a Jehovah’s Witness too far that I wouldn’t listen to that song and he wasn’t going to change it and he was like yelling at me in the car about how I was late being disrespectful to him because I want him to change song or something my dad was always like threatening to tell the elders on me about something and I’m thinking go ahead and I’ll tell them how much we knew smoke and all this other crap that you do that is now in obscurity can’t and don’t want to go confess my sins. So you know you did get baptized them.

[00:49:23] Oh he did.

[00:49:24] He did get baptized to my mom and him got a divorce like right before he married my step mom. He ended up getting back. Got you.

[00:49:31] And I think it was mostly because he was feeling the pressure from his family. Maybe I don’t know why he got baptized. He never really dissolved any information about his own story to me ever.

[00:49:44] Mean I don’t really talk. He doesn’t like me though. He says he was very abusive. So later that night got home he was drinking. Mind you I consider him an alcoholic.

[00:50:00] I know that’s a self diagnosed thing but hey if you have to drink every single day I’m sorry you’re an alcoholic and I just mean like have a glass of wine every night. No I mean like you’re drinking six plus beers every single night. You’re an alcoholic to me. So he was extremely verbally and mentally abusive. He would always take yes like you no matter what the situation was. You were the one at fault. It doesn’t matter what was said. The way that he acted towards him was what was wrong or what you know is. The problem and nothing was ever his fault. So anyway as he was drinking that night in of course that the fact that I like told him to do something really ticked him off. And so my son had already gone to bed and I just like take a shower and was like he was laying on me and I was sitting on the couch she was getting ready for bed and. I must have said something about a TV show that we were watching and he switched off on me and was screaming in my face and telling me that he’s going to tell the others how disrespectful I am and he’s the ME and the House and who do I think dying. And I don’t mean he’s like sitting in that chair in the living room with me. I mean he’s sitting on the coffee table in front of me three inches from my face with his big breaths bidding at me yelling at me telling me how much of a disrespectful little girl I am. And like I said he’s the head of the house. So anyway this went on for like 20 minutes of him just screaming at me. And at this point I get when I’m confronted like that I have learned not to talk back because it does not bode well for me in that house. And so we just air and kind of he would want me to look at him. You know look at me when I’m talking to you kind of thing. So I would look at him but because I was so dead inside about the whole thing. I have that deadpan look at my face and he would hate that so much like you just like your mother get that look after your face you know. And I’m like there’s a whole other story. And so finally after he pounded his fist on the table like three or four times a glass table. Broke it. My step mom comes downstairs and she says Phil what are you doing.

[00:52:44] Daughter.

[00:52:46] And that was the end of that.

[00:52:48] Then I just had to go to bed and I was like Oh OK. So it’s over. And nobody else was here to see any of that other than my stepmom was woken up by him screaming and told them to go to bed.

[00:53:01] And then also I mean that wasn’t the first time it happened but that we know that just shows it’s not because your step mom knew she could just come down and just be like it just snap out of it you know and it would be over it’s kind of sad that nobody that your step mom didn’t you know she obviously knew he was in the wrong and.

[00:53:29] But why didn’t you know if she truly cared she should have sat you down and you know had a real caring discussion with you about what just happened and try to help you.

[00:53:39] But know he would do that in my room when nobody else was there. And I would just really just have to wait for it to be over. Or it’s awful. Oh yeah. Or he would be drunk and the only time he could ever show me any affection was asked was one o’clock in the morning.

[00:54:01] He’d been drinking all night long. Come downstairs. And it’s so funny because my my bedroom was in the basement and we had a three floor and three story house and their bedroom was on the top floor. So I would be in the basement sleeping. He would come into my room he would sit on my bed with his leg drown. Beer Brad.

[00:54:22] Oh we love you.

[00:54:24] You know I love you and I’m proud of you and you don’t want to be kids and it’s all a. Nasty and oh I’m sorry. Alcohol is such a tough because my mom’s.

[00:54:39] My mom has issues with drinking too and something is very triggering for you.

[00:54:43] Oh it definitely is. Even when other people that are like I don’t know your story I don’t know what you about. But if you’re drunk just get on my face like a.

[00:54:53] I mean this sounds like that that was a defining part of your growing up. And honestly I don’t know. I’m not trying to I guess I am trying to play armchair psychologist here or something but I mean your dad has some has some problems besides the alcohol.

[00:55:18] Oh yeah. The narcissism. He it’s so bad.

[00:55:22] I don’t know if it’s you know like a narcissistic personality disorder or something but that’s that’s just so abusive and that’s the kind of stuff you know like you said you had gotten to the point where you were so dead inside you know that that’s the kind of stuff that breaks your spirit and that can break your spirit.

[00:55:42] And that is just so hard to to live around because you know like you’re walking on eggshells you never know when he’s going to snap and you don’t know when that next time is going to come where his three inches from your face you know spitting on you because he’s so angry.

[00:56:05] That’s just it’s all the you know the funny thing to with that is he would you know he was very much like you need to go to bed. Your bed time is your bed time. Call it fine though if he would catch me in the basement because the basement was very big it had his office my bedroom a bathroom the laundry room in a rock room and it was kind of like the cat show because it was a walkout basement to the barn. So we had. It was always very dirty because we had all the barn clothes. That’s where the dog kennels were. That’s like where you know I lived but anyway if he caught me in the middle of the night cleaning down there cause I got to a point where I was compulsively cleaning because I couldn’t sleep. He wouldn’t tell me what a bed he’d be like.

[00:56:59] You know after he’d been drinking you come down you know maybe want to have one of those conversations with me and he’d be like oh well you probably should go to bed but thanks for clean that or it only he really wouldn’t know what to say because he was like I mean Nana how had something of the mind you want to talk about well because I was cleaning.

[00:57:18] He was like okay with that. It was it was weird. And um so but that the that instance I had with him I think was definitely the turning point of me not wanting to live there with them anymore.

[00:57:36] I was 17 when it happened or 16 eternal almost 17.

[00:57:40] And so because the boy that I had you know was crazy about didn’t feel that way about me anymore. And I couldn’t date anybody else at the Kingdom Hall. It wasn’t like I was boy crazy but I felt like. If I hung out with a boy that would mean that he was my boyfriend because he would have to be a chaperone. And it’s like no I just get along with boys better. I have a more I guess tomboy thing about me am I was into sports and doing like playing games and video games and I was really nerdy and all.

[00:58:17] So I started to get super depressed because I felt like I didn’t fit in anywhere anymore.

[00:58:25] And a lot of the girls stopped. I think liking me at the Kingdom Hall because the boys liked me. I don’t want to sound super conceited because I don’t really know how many of them actually liked me.

[00:58:36] But you can definitely see their ones like me kind of thing. I can see that yeah.

[00:58:42] And so then it was like I was distancing myself from the girls the kingdom.

[00:58:47] And then Michelle my really good friend went to high school together she graduated a year before me.

[00:58:53] So I was in high school for a whole year myself and she started going to the Kingdom Hall that was closer to her and not my kingdom home. So she started making friends with the other kingdom how she was going to hang out with them. So we were seeing you know each other and I just felt really alone. I got to a point where I would just call the guy that I had dated for that short period of time and call him in the middle of the night and I would just talk to him for hours and hours on end. And he wasn’t weird he wasn’t like turning like be my boyfriend he was just a really good friend and he would just talk to me and he would confess because he wasn’t baptized he was an unbaptized publisher so he confessed to me that he was drinking and he was glad I called Kaz’s that he could like I’ll lay some of his stuff on me and that I lay some of my stuff on hand. We were like kind of hate on everybody with each other.

[00:59:47] And so I had gotten Solal with it at home that I see.

[00:59:59] Now mind you at this point I’m trying to actually be friendlier towards the people that I was friends with prior in school because I’m there by myself without Michelle. So if I had to survive one way or another at home you to my friend Rachael again and she was very accepting. And then there was a boy at school that was showing interest in me and I didn’t let anybody in. I would sit next to my two girlfriends that I had there. Ian Lee boys Widlake would never talk to me and try and flirt with me and stuff and I was like NUPE like there was a wall there. You were not breaking through. I don’t care how charming you are. Carol silly you are. Anakin Olaf you I’m not going say things I’m not supposed to. So but I’m getting close to my friends in school and I start like breaking down my my barriers towards other people at school and my home life was so terrible. I would sneak my stepmom’s painkillers in me being super naïve about how this man works.

[01:01:03] I thought I’d overdosed only for Motrin itself. And this is over like I take it for extra strict prescriptions strict Molterer and I mean TMI put my stomach pumped I hope that I just died before the ambulance gets here like I was ready to just like it all.

[01:01:21] I I really seriously wanted to just die because I was so lonely at home. Yeah yeah. There you go. Alex Yeah and I would like I would sneak through alcohol at night my parents alcohol just a little bit you know just to try and like help me go to sleep and nothing really worked and then I called my friend Ratel and I told her I did. And she’s like no you’re going to be fine. You didn’t overdose like you’re gonna be fine. She’s like but I really hate that you are in that situation. Like how did you get to that point.

[01:01:59] You know so I was really confiding in her. And then one boy that was friends with all of us walked her like group.

[01:02:08] He was really showing an interest in me and so like I would hang out with him at school and we talked and then I you know I liked him and he like asking me out so late. Okey Asher towards us boyfriend girlfriend at school kind of thing because obviously I can’t hang out with you outside of school. But then I got really ballsy and because my bedroom was in the basement it was a walkout basement. He convinced you to sneak out in the middle of the night walk down my driveway and go through the words to where this truck was and he was at his house and we would hang out at his house for a couple of hours and he’d make sure that I got back home before 4:00 o’clock in the mornings that nobody would know that I was gone. So I would do this for like a month a couple times a week. I would sneak out and go to his house and because things obviously progressively were getting worse at home and I was trying to keep up facade with them but knowing that no I don’t want to be a Jehovah’s Witness anymore. I don’t want this split like I want to be able to do what I want to do and not be judged for or at least begin to judge me for doing something and I am going to do something bad you know because I was such a goody two shoe that like I’m gonna give you a reason to move you’re gonna accuse me of it I’m going to leave do it. Exactly. So that’s when he was a big he was really into smoking weed and so I tried that with him and I’m thinking what does it matter. My parents do it so they can get mad at me for doing it you know because they do it so I was motivated with them in there and um it was it was right after my 18th birthday I decided I’d done I need to have a reason to not be a Jehovah’s Witness anymore because my parents aren’t going to let me not be one. It’s certainly my stepmom mum and so I had sex with this boy and I went home and said it was because things happened so fast like it’s hard for me to remember exactly the timeline of it but I know that I told my dad.

[01:04:23] And sat on that I snuck out and was with Chris and I had sex with him and then I didn’t want to be a Jehovah’s Witness anymore and that they would have to disfellowshipped me because I had premarital sex. And you can’t say I can’t be a Jehovah’s Witness anymore because I did this bad thing.

[01:04:39] And I said I’m not going to the kingdom anymore I’m not studying and that I’m doing nothing. And I think my dad at that point because he was so good at bullying me he didn’t know what to do. He was dong Ratho on a day when you stand up you know and he didn’t know what to say. I mean he was speechless other than he said that he was. He threatened to sue Chris with statutory rape and I was like yeah yeah can’t because I’m 18. He’s like oh was it a birthday present. I’m like what. That was the dumbest thing to say. Is it a birthday present. So anyway he doesn’t really know I guess what to say. And my step mom was like I’m gonna take you to that kingdom hall and dragged by her hair. If you know whether you want to go or not I will drag you. And I was like okay whatever. So I waited in the car.

[01:05:37] At the kingdom home I had a couple of people which was super weird a couple of people that like I barely knew.

[01:05:45] I mean they were nice people but they came up to the car and the one girl I had hung out with her a couple times as she was like begging me not to do whatever it is that I was about to do. She just knew something was going to happen and she just felt the need to come out and talk to me because she just didn’t want me to do what I was going to do an arm like she would like. Confess the story about how she had a blood transfusion when she was a kid and she just remember how bad it was and how she feels like there’s the soul of an old man living in her because of the blood transfusion she had in mind. She felt free hand. And I’m like What does that have to do with anything like you don’t even know what’s going on and you’re out here begging me to do not do something. So I’m shooting back inside. And then an added meaning was over. I’m with Eric inside and my step mom obviously had talked to the elders and told them what happened in Salt Lake. That was my official meeting was that night and I went in and I talked to them and they you know they asked me what happened. I told them exactly what had happened. And I said in I don’t want to be a jobs witness anymore. And then one elder which is the older of the wife that Ron had studied with. You know I was really close with him and his wife and I felt bad because I did really like them and he just looked like he was heartbroken. I think that I was leaving because he didn’t like me so much and but at that point like I said I was pretty dead inside. Everything that had to do with anything with all that and so that night I was disfellowshipped and later that week because it had gotten so bad at my house there I skipped school in the middle class. I convinced Rachel to skip class with me. Not that I really had to convince her. She was like yeah let’s hit you shitless go. We drove to my house and I packed up all my stuff in her bedroom in her car and I left and I never went home. I like is that emancipated myself at 18 and just high school.

[01:07:59] So let me ask you how how was that home after you were disfellowshipped.

[01:08:06] It just was they were you know home. Has that had on. It wasn’t really that. I don’t think I waited very long to really see.

[01:08:18] What would happen. After I left I was just ready. I just I didn’t want to see them anymore. And it went to be a part of anything anymore. I literally think it was maybe two days after I this fellowship that I just left.

[01:08:29] You

[01:08:30] were just done with all of it. I was so done with everything. I don’t blame you. Yeah.

[01:08:36] And that is a ballsy move at 18 you know to like you said you know pretty much emancipate yourself. Where did you go.

[01:08:45] Well

[01:08:46] I wanted to stay with Rachel but her parents did not like my parents. And you can’t blame them but they didn’t really want that kind of drama in their house. What I definitely didn’t blame them for. So Rachel’s like as much as you are my friend and I want to help you. You can’t stay here. I’m like look at us. It’s fine. But Chris the boy that I was dating he just lived at home with his dad and his dad worked nightshift and then like he went to schools that were sleeping. And as it was really all about. Me coming and staying like Chris kind of told the situation and his dad was like oh yeah that’s fine. So I dealt with Chris and I think that’s why my dad’s family thinks like I’m boy crazy. But it’s like there’s really the only Blaziken day.

[01:09:38] So get in where you fit in at that point.

[01:09:40] Exactly.

[01:09:42] So after that. Because obviously Tom is going to be on to this day. The thing I regret the most about that. Part about it was my little brother was 8 years old and had never gone home on the bus by himself.

[01:09:58] And like you know he’s eight years old but I guess at the time I thought he was so much more naive than he probably was. And you know like I said we grew up in a very rural area.

[01:10:10] So for him to like take the 35 minute bus ride home and not know where I’m at and I’m always there and then he has to like be home and then he’s home after school by himself at eight years old. Nobody’s there because everybody’s at work for hours on end you know like I felt really bad about that. That’s literally the only thing I felt bad about.

[01:10:33] Yeah. And that’s that’s that’s really sweet. But the reality is that he was your responsibility.

[01:10:42] Oh that means that he kind of was.

[01:10:45] Yeah yeah yeah I totally understand feeling like you abandoned him in that situation. Whether or not it was your responsibility or not. I’m sure you didn’t. Oh sure you it’s a shame you couldn’t have taken them with you.

[01:11:02] Yeah I know huge. Yeah. He and I do love my brother but him and I have never really meshed well. He he’s like a totally different person. He’s like an alien to me you like. We just don’t have anything in common.

[01:11:21] Oh yes.

[01:11:23] As you grow up and grow up differently.

[01:11:26] That’s where so you’re disfellowshipped you’re on your own now you you’re living with Chris and his family.

[01:11:39] Do you go ahead and complete high school and you do go to college or how’s life play out after that.

[01:11:47] So I had always wanted to be a beautician. And I think that that definitely like fell within the oh you could totally do that as a joke was witness because you have to go to school but it’s not for very long. So everybody was pretty supportive about me being a beautician and that’s what I thought I wanted to do. So I graduate high school. Nobody came. I was like Whatever that’s fine. My mom’s side of the family. I was like talking to more. And after I left I witan visited my grandmother and I called my mother and talked to her and told her what happened and she was so ecstatic that I wasn’t living there with my dad anymore and I had like broken free. From everything. So she came into town to visit me.

[01:12:37] She was living in Indianapolis at the time and so I graduated high school fine.

[01:12:46] And I wanted to go to be this school and this is where it gets like super weird because I’m really messed up. I’m doing a lot of drugs with Chris. I’m kind of like just living out this extremely rebellious and very irresponsible part of my life where I don’t know how to get a job I don’t know how you know the only job outside of doing chores for my parents or painting would in the summertime for my dad’s business was I. I was a when I was 14 15 14 or 15. My friend Michelle had gotten me a job at one of the resorts around there as a housekeeper for the summer cleaning. It was a you know as somebody who knows somebody can a job you know. So I had never gotten a job on my own I didn’t even know how to do anything like what I put on a resonating I’d never done anything. So it was really hard for me to get a job and really do anything to support myself. So Chris what kind of do my dad and step mom they can. I don’t know what it was that gave them kind of a change of heart. Maybe they were going through. I don’t know their own issues with things. After I had left. So we kind of started talking again. There was an instance I don’t really want to share and here because it’s extremely personal but it kind of threw my step back in my life. And so she would call me and see how I was doing. And so I told her you know I guess I want to be this school but I want to go to beauty school at this college. That’s an hour and a half away. And I can’t really afford the gas to go down there like I can’t get student loans to get me through the college. But like actually having the extra money because beauty school a 40 hour a week school is like a real job without getting paid. It’s like an internship. You know what you’re paying them. So to have a job outside of that is really hard when you don’t have reliable transportation or extra money to to drive all the way there. So she says well I want to help you with college. I still think you need to go to college. I still think you need to do something and I will help you with that. I’ll give you money. You know armed aside money to look happy with your Gasson you know through travels only be like 500 dollars a month to go toward that will be our contribution to you getting an education skills. Well that’s very sweet of you thank you. As leg but you do realize I’m not going to come back to the Kingdom Hall and she’s like Well you know that’s our only a stipulation. But as much as I want you to come back like I’ll still help you but you just need to think about it. Just pray about it. You know look whatever. And then my dad he’s like well what is Chris doing. Does he need a job. Because I need somebody. Who do you know who. Who needs to do this or that around the job. And you know like I could I could probably throw him some work if he needs some money to do whatever and sells yeah like I’ll ask him. And Chris was like yeah he wants to give me work I’ll do it. So he started working for my dad and then my dad had a conversation with me about well do you love him. You know you’ll never be accepted back or be able to come back to the Kingdom Hall or be a part of this family unless you’re married. You can’t just be living in sin so he’s like you really love him. I was like Well yeah I loved him. I didn’t really know whatever well think I love him and so I convincedF.K. convinced him to marry me and we got married.

[01:16:42] I was 19 and let it go well.

[01:16:49] Our marriage obviously fell apart within like six months. I was I divorced him when I was 20 but mostly because I had so many my own issues. But he did a lot of drugs at the time and I was like Yeah that was fine for a minute like I did that and my rebellious phase. But let’s let’s grow up here like I’m actually pretty responsible person. I can have my head on my shoulders and I want to kind of thing. And I was over it and he was not ready to be over that. And for me it was just kind of like I don’t really don’t want this these series of mistakes to be who I am in my real life kind of thing. So I left him and he was devastated because at that point I think that’s when he realized that he didn’t want to be with me even though we weren’t really the greatest couple. And I had gone to the Kingdom Hall a couple of times that we get married and just the looks that I got at that kingdom hall he had all houses like all this is not and no I can not do this. Especially the boy that I was in love with he was there and he was looking at me like Who are you.

[01:18:02] And I’m thinking to myself I don’t know. I don’t know what I’m doing. Is trying to please everyone you know.

[01:18:12] And I had made an offhand comment about my dad being an angel to one of his employees. It was supposed to be a joke. I said it in a joking way and I didn’t say it in a malicious way.

[01:18:29] Well they got back to him that I had said that and there must have been misconstrued the way I said it because after that Kristen how anymore work. Oh I’m not helping with college. You’re so disrespectful. You’re not even going to the Kingdom Hall you couldn’t even finish going to the meetings.

[01:18:44] You all in. So now stuck in of marriage. My parents have cut me off and the. You know Chris isn’t working anymore and I’m already in college. I’m making it to you know beauty school every day. And I found a girl that lived by me that I carpooled with and it just got so to the point where I didn’t have any money I couldn’t keep going to that school or had a drop out. And then you know I was like 4000 plus dollars in debt from taking out of school loans to get into a college that I didn’t even finish.

[01:19:21] And you know Christianize relationship was really rocky and falling apart. And so you know when I left him I just moved to Indianapolis my mom.

[01:19:34] And I stayed with her. But because all of her arised relationship was nonexistent for five years. And then all of a sudden we were thrown back together and she didn’t know how to. It was weird because like as a kid she wanted to be my friend not necessarily my mom. And then now that I’m an adult she want to be my mom and not my friend. You know so then she’s like trying to tell me how to live my life and I’m like girl I just left a place that was like this. You cannot tell me how to live my life now that I am 20 years old and yet I’m living with you. But Kaline like.

[01:20:14] So her nice relationship was very rocky for a really long time and I ended up.

[01:20:19] She helped me though get a job like she is really going to get me a job. She’s really good at making your résumé look good and she definitely helped me get in to that.

[01:20:30] I worked atJ.C. Penney here in Indianapolis and that’s actually where I met my current husband. He had him and I sold shoes together.

[01:20:38] So her.

[01:20:42] But yeah.

[01:20:46] That’s how that’s how that ended up.

[01:20:48] Well yeah that’s so. Have you ever have you ever talked to that.

[01:21:06] I think I know the answer to this is why I’m stumbling but have you ever talked to your witness out of your family anymore.

[01:21:14] My dad’s parents died and I was with my current husband. We were only together for maybe six months or so when I when my grandfather died and my gramma had already passed. And I was invited to the funeral at the Kingdom Hall. And I told Eric kind of my ethics my husband. I told him kind of like you know like about my past and everything and I said I want to go. I think this will be a good opportunity to try and you know mend things considering they reached out to me to tell me that grandpa died and I said but I’m going to warn you like this is going to be super awkward. I’m not going to stay with them we’re going to get a hotel room because I can’t stay with them. I can’t anything in it. We went we went up there got our hotel room and then we got a phone call like hey we’re having like all the families don’t get together here at the house. Please come. We would like for you guys to be here. And they said Okay so we go. And my dad. I mean he he loved his parents so much. He would do anything for them. He did a lot of things for them. And I think that’s why he felt like his kids should be that way towards him. I get it matter what our relationship was like you lived and breathed and died for your parents. That’s how he was with his parents.

[01:22:42] And you know so I went to their house he and my dad gave me a really big hug.

[01:22:50] He’s crying and everything like I’m really sad like I start crying you know. And then he takes his hand on the back of my head and yanks my head back by my hair and was like. I don’t even remember what it what he’s saying because I was so shocked that he did that. But basically he was like you need to straighten your life out and be a part of this family. Kind of thing. And I I I hit him on the chest and pushed him away and I was like See this is why or we don’t have a relationship. You are not allowed to touch me this way. You were not allowed to talk to me this way. This is why our relationship is so volatile and if you want a relationship with me we have to stop right here. Pretend not pretend that things didn’t happen but you did stuff. I did stuff. Let’s call it a day. Let’s start over. If you want a relationship with me you’re going to have to do that. And I think because of his parents death he was willing to accept that I guess. And so from then on we were we were pretty much okay. I mean once in a while we would have a text message between each other where we were like disagree on things and he would try and bully me into thinking a certain way or you know Hill me would make comments about how I was a dumb kid and I did this and that I made these mistakes. Don’t you wish you didn’t do that. And you know you realize when you’re older that your parents were right and.

[01:24:23] You know he would say things like that it’s like a very insecure person who constantly needs validation that he’s the big man on campus.

[01:24:34] Yes. Yes.

[01:24:35] And he I think because I wasn’t there he kind of transferred that aggression towards my brother. And so when I would visit them. And he would get upset about something my brother did something that made him mad like I had told you in our conversation before that I would like stand in the doorway you know like you’re I to be that somebody that sticks up for my little brother.

[01:25:00] We may not get along. We may not be close but I’m not gonna let you bully somebody on my watch like I’m not scared of you anymore. I proved that I could leave and I could not rely on you and I could stand up to you and he wouldn’t do it. Thing about it. So you know I tried to I would try and be there for him.

[01:25:20] Well then Eric and a few years later fastforward I got pregnant.

[01:25:28] We weren’t married. I was scared to get married again because of the stigma that not only my mom had for being married a few times. No religion to be like your mom. Well no I got married because I was pressured into it. My first marriage and it was a joke. So this next time I’m get married unless I know that this is for real and I want to be with this person and share life with them. So we get pregnant and we had our first kid in 2014 and late 2014. So in the summer of 2014 they were having the international convention.

[01:26:09] And I was like you know the smurf lives right.

[01:26:14] Yeah I think it was in Indianapolis lesbian never went through. And I was visiting my parents from Michigan so I was up in northern Michigan visiting them. And. At that point from the years that I had left to that point my parents lost their house was their business the farm the barn business and everybody else had to find somewhere to take their horses. My step mom had to get rid of a lot of her horses and board somewhere else. So my dad had bought a piece of property in a different part of town and he was going to build his own. You know the next house that they had they were going to build their own house with cash no mortgage so that if he was out of work like he had then that nobody could take your house away from them. So in the meantime key they stripped that property that they lived at before because my dad literally built everything on their property. So he’s like the bank owns the house but they don’t own this barn and they don’t know my shop and they don’t own the fence and they also he likes strip that place and took all the materials to this new place and built himself a pool barn. So they’re living out of this poll barn and I’m visiting them. I’m really pregnant. An elder from the congregation that my family originally went to when I was a little kid. So he’s a family friend. I’ve known him my entire life. I’m pregnant and I answer the door and he says Oh hi Sydney and I was like hi Gary. And he said well how are you doing. You know I was he’s an older so you can technically talk to me and I’m like I’m a girl and I’m pregnant with my first kid. We’re ever we’re just kind of being friendly. And I think mostly because we were fairly friends like I’ve known him my whole life. It wasn’t as like oh you’re a disfellowshipped person. I need to keep the strictly business right. So he’s like well I was here to talk to your dad but since you’re here how about I just let you know all about this little you know I’m just going to give him this pamphlet about the international convention you know and I’m just sitting there like Aha.

[01:28:35] Aha.

[01:28:37] And he said something to me that really started me down the path of this religion isB.S.

[01:28:48] Not only do I not want to be a part of it because my own personal reasons but this is obscene. He decided to make a comment about how we really go did this. I think you like it. I think it would help you come back to Jehovah because you’re having a little one now.

[01:29:05] You don’t want them to not make it was like Are you or effing kidding me.

[01:29:13] You will move in a room.

[01:29:16] And you’re going to tell me that because of my spirituality that God’s just going to destroy my kid and does not even give him a chance because of my spirituality. Well you know that this is my step mom. She she was like in the shower shoe throwing something where she couldn’t come to the door. Gary laughed. I was nice to him but I relayed the message to Penny. No sir. Mom and I said that’s not okay with me. Is that okay with you that you believe that that this religion believes that can you believe that she goes. Well.

[01:29:55] Oh I get Yeah. I mean I know that that’s like what they believe but they shouldn’t really know what to say. And I was like You’re seriously going to stand there and look at me and tell me that God is going to destroy my child and he’s not going to live because of a mistake I made.

[01:30:15] And she’s like Well it does say that the children pay for the sins of the father. I said yeah in the old testament but the new testament says that Jesus died for all of us. So that’s Nolan Boyd. She’s like well you. I’m going to get that she’s like I don’t really know. You know is really know what to say when you when you make a logical when you say something that is so logical and she knows that they don’t believe that or that they believe another way. She’s just like whatever.

[01:30:46] Like maybe I don’t really agree with that but she knows it looks really bad. What they actually believe looks pretty horrific but they know how it looks to the outside world so they have no problem mincing words to try to give off the optics that they want to give Ray.

[01:31:05] Well in my dad he was when he found out that I was pregnant he was real mad. I think mostly I mean I wasn’t married Eden he really really likes my husband or like my husband now. So I don’t think he was mad that I was pregnant with her when I was pregnant with. I think he was just mad that I was having a kid and I wasn’t married and my dad at the time I’m just he just never feels like I am a sufficient human being or something. So even though he loves his grandkids he hasn’t met the new one. And I mean he’s like crazy though about my older son and my daughter. So but every time I’ve gotten pregnant he just has it in mind you he doesn’t go to the Kingdom Hall and he’ll say I can’t believe you’re bringing another soul into this treacherous world. Ahmed is right around the corner and how could you be so cruel as to getting pregnant again and bring another beautiful soul into this.

[01:32:11] Also does. Oh I just it’s just such a cheerful outlook. No kidding.

[01:32:18] I mean it’s the way they see the world though.

[01:32:20] You know they think that it’s almost irresponsible to bring children into this world because it’s just going to be destroyed. And Usher kids watch your kids reach that age of accountability then even even if you were a witness that you can’t help them there and you have to stand on their own so you’re pretty pretty tough way of things. Everything from the daily life to you know any future prospects including your kids. And I’m sorry that you that guilt trip on you there at the door about your unborn child.

[01:33:00] Oh I was so mad that my step mom she knew better than the like trying to find. I mean she was just like yeah I know I don’t really know what to say about that because you’re not going to tell a pregnant woman that you agree with that man that 12 hour drive.

[01:33:19] So.

[01:33:20] So you have you clearly left those personal reasons and left the religion and like you said when that Elder is standing at the door and who’s trying to use this opportunity to shame you into going to coming back for the cult. What is it though like you know from there how did you start waking up you know mentally. Did you start looking into the religion more or what did you start doing that has kind of helped you from there.

[01:33:59] Well it makes me my parents you know like has shown in my story.

[01:34:07] They kind of did it. They were foot floppy as far as the shunning thing. You know they would shoot me if they felt like it was justified. But then their conscience would be getting in the way and wanting to reach out.

[01:34:21] Because like I said they really like my husband now they have grandkids and it’s kind of like oh well I can overlook certain things or I can not shun her as long as she is good enough. You know just so I can see my grandkids and things like that. And in it we went back and forth because if I posted a picture of us like dressed up for Halloween old then I’m not you know they’re not going attack me for a year and then you know then they’re going to talk to me or talk to me again because when I voice my opinions or my IM logical thinking you know they don’t really know what to say. I mean my step mom will agree with me on a lot of things that I have issues with. But at the end of the day she still thinks it’s the truth. She still thinks that I need to come back and you know now I have put a Kabah issue to the back and forth and I am I’m making them shun me because they want to for their religion. They don’t want to because of their humanity. But I’m not allowing them to go back and forth on it anymore. I walked them from contacting me and as hard as it is as sad as it is I think it’s better for me to not have that turmoil and I’m not going to put my kids in. That’s when I really wanted to get in too. Now why is this so bad. I know why it’s bad because of what I think but why is this so bad. And that’s when I started to really listen to shows like your show or Lady see and her husband that does their show the critical thinking show and you know just a lot of stuff I didn’t even know was going on like the two witness rule. And I mean there’s so much that I was like wow my story is like nothing in comparison to some of these people and what they’ve gone through in like I knew it wasn’t the truth. I knew it wasn’t a good religion. I felt as though it was a cult. I just never knew. I just never had the proof. You know and it really constituted as a cult until I researched it and I’m like oh yeah that’s exactly what it is. That’s this all of this is. Yeah.

[01:36:48] So when you grow up with that you know you don’t really have clear vision as to what it is. It’s interesting for me actually on a few of these interviews and then just on forums and things.

[01:37:02] It’s always fascinating for me to hear what the loved one of someone who is a witness says when they go to the meetings for the first time and so many times though apparently come out of a Keenum Hall and be like that’s messed up you know and you know for us that was just normal because it’s all we knew but apparently you know for people who have any amount of perspective on the outside who who go they can pretty quickly see what’s going on and so yeah it’s very tough and it takes somebody to kind of to kind of open your eyes or show you that when you’re finally starting to wake up because it’s really hard to get enough distance from it to see it for what it is anymore.

[01:37:57] Mary is there anything that you’d like people to know about the religion that you know is there anything you’ve learned about it in particular that you think people should know on the who have never been a witness before.

[01:38:16] Yeah they’re nice when they come to the door and I was nice to but I was naive you know and a lot of these people are just sheep and you know people say how bad this religion is and then they say Oh yeah but these people are so nice we yes they are nice and they’re probably very decent people but they don’t know what they’re doing.

[01:38:39] I mean they think they do but in their well-meaning people and so like don’t be super rude to them but at the same time just don’t even bother with hurt just just don’t.

[01:38:51] Yeah. It’s not though it’s the people that are horrible necessarily it’s the culture that they’re involved in this thing that’s bigger than them is.

[01:39:01] What about also know your group. Well to I just I get so.

[01:39:08] Frustrated with people who are not Jehovah’s Witnesses but they love people who are in so you say Okay but what about this and this and they get so brainwashed into thinking that if anybody says anything bad about that religion who then it’s that’s their problem. It’s not true. People are just making up lies. People who aren’t even Joves witnesses will say that and it bothers me because it’s like there’s always two sides to a story and the fact that you’re dismissing this other person’s story just because it shows a bad light on something that you don’t think is that bad is wrong and you need to listen to other people’s story because just because somebody on Yelp says that a restaurant is terrible doesn’t mean it is just as delicious doesn’t mean it is wrong and you are right.

[01:40:04] There’s no valid your religion is so personal. That’s it. It is a person’s individual faith their individual hope for salvation there. It helps them overcome their individual fears of death mortality the world around them it gives them some sense of control. When you start threatening that people tend to lash out personally because because it hurts. It’s something that emotionally fills something in them that they need to and you know to each his own whatever anyone wants to believe. That’s fine. The only problem is when you start hurting other people and you know unfortunately Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t have the greatest track record. As far as not hurting people or allowing some of the most vulnerable among them to be hurt. And it’s very sad. Does your. Do you think that your past still impacts you. You know just as a person.

[01:41:16] Oh for sure. I still have a really cause I’m lucky now. My husband works two jobs and he allows me to be a stay at home mom to our three children. I have a hard time being out in the real world and working. Like when I was selling shoes where I met him you know I came from being a total extrovert super butterfly in the Kingdom Hall to clamming back up and then when I had to get a real job here in Indianapolis it was like I didn’t know what to do and how to talk to people anymore. I didn’t know how to relate to the culture down here compared to the really sheltered really small predominantly white culture of northern Michigan like I had one black friend and he was half Irish and he was also is also gay and was the only black kid in our school. So I mean he was an anomaly in itself. It wasn’t like he was like other you know African-American people I’ve met.

[01:42:23] So which is funny to this day of him and I are actually still pretty good friends and we would have a lot of like religious discussions because before he came out as gay he his dad he was this you you went to a regular Christian church. But we would have a lot of meaningful conversations about church and things like that. And now he’s like I’m gay and I’m atheist.

[01:42:45] And if you don’t like it whatever and I’m like I’m not anything and if you don’t like it whatever. So I’m over that now to help him.

[01:42:57] Yeah yeah but it is it is it is hard to to come out of the religion and then try to try to live life from the normal world to some degree and you know find out where you fit in.

[01:43:13] Well in that feeling like you really have that.

[01:43:17] I think that’s the biggest thing is like you know we are Jehovah’s Witness you have this destination that you’re going to get to eventually and so you dislike live day by day as it. Whereas when you’re free of that you’re like you don’t even know where to begin. The possibilities of what you can do with your life or where you could go and you see a lot of times I feel like I have the want to do things but I don’t have the courage to take that leap to get out of my comfort zone that I have established now as a stay at home. You know or I don’t think was going to go back to college should do something. What on earth would that be like. I ended up going back to school and I actually have a beauty license I graduated from beauty school here in Indianapolis.

[01:44:04] But that was super hard for me also.

[01:44:08] So I’m like artist don’t even want to go down that road. My kids are in school my in get a job I’m just going to be one of those moms are just told all the kids everywhere they want to go and be at all of sports and do all the things I don’t even know what I want for myself. Right now I’m kind of living vicariously through my children even mothered you know 3 2 and 6 months so sofa role you know that.

[01:44:30] That is a great point though you know freedom while a great quality. It’s not. It always comes with certain prices and one of those is responsibility you know you’re responsible for your own life. Now you know you can’t just handed over to a Colts and say here you know you tell me what to do and you tell me when to do it and I’ll do it and then life will be OK. It’s it’s it’s scarier because now you know we have to make our own decisions we have to decide you know does this fit for me or does this not end. Because you and I and a lot of people listening have never had that opportunity really especially from our formative years it’s very difficult to suddenly be kind out there and be like well what do I want to do.

[01:45:25] I don’t know. I’ve never I’ve never been able to do what I wanted to do. So it’s really it’s not easy to quite figure out you know because we’ve done what other people wanted us to do for so long.

[01:45:37] Well and for me too as far as life skills went I think clean a house like nobody’s business.

[01:45:43] And I can say I want to move down toward a job.

[01:45:50] You’re not very far away from where I live. So I told her let me just go down there and do the interview he’s like leave me with three kids for that long.

[01:46:03] Yeah.

[01:46:03] We thought we’d end up hiring you anyway.

[01:46:06] Put it away too because I told I told my husband I’m so like quirky sometimes I have this obsession with watching on YouTube professional cleaning videos. Oh really.

[01:46:20] Oh yes. To watch professional carpet cleaning people go into these places like restaurants and the carpets nasty you like bring it back to life and I tell him I’m like I want to that’s so bad. Like something about that is so satisfying and he’s just like you are so weird.

[01:46:41] Well then I guess I’m weird so I don’t sit around watching the videos but I do yeah.

[01:46:49] You know there’s something satisfying taking something and making it shine again or you know restoring it in some way through the cleaning process.

[01:47:00] That’s funny. Maybe who knows maybe maybe in the future. That is something that you could pursue if you enjoy it. You know I mean there’s certainly nothing wrong with doing that.

[01:47:13] I told them I was like huggy never any women in these videos. I want to be the first woman in these videos professionally cleaning these carpets with these guys.

[01:47:23] So there really are.

[01:47:24] That’s interesting to me. I guess if I think about it yeah any time I’ve ever been around a carpet cleaner in apartments or houses or anything it’s always a man.

[01:47:36] Yeah that’s what you’re claiming.

[01:47:40] You know being a maid is predominantly like a woman’s.

[01:47:43] Oh yeah.

[01:47:44] Because I’m the first fashion show I’ve ever had and I clean houses and you know there’s I’ve run into issues in the past where women didn’t want me to clean in their house because they didn’t think I could clean because I was a man. So you know it’s funny. There’s all kinds of prejudgments about those types of things. Yeah. Yeah. There you go start your carpet cleaning business that would be awesome.

[01:48:14] Let’s find ideas that I can work for. So yeah well what are some things.

[01:48:25] Well let me ask you this I mean I guess you do have right now some distance between you and your family.

[01:48:35] And I don’t know if this has been an issue for you or not. Can’t matter if we’ve talked about it before.

[01:48:40] But sometimes it’s difficult when when X witnesses have kids sometimes they’re witness relatives will want to have something to do with them. But it’s really just to kind of get at the kids to try to teach because they want to save the kids they want to teach them you know the truth. And so at least with this distance you don’t have to worry about that right now but you know is there anything. If you had something you could say to your family if if they hear this and they were to to you know want to shut you off again. It sounds like they kind of do anyway. Is there anything you would want to say to them.

[01:49:33] Mostly that it breaks my heart that it’s my kids won’t see the good side of them that I know that they have that I’ve been able to experience occasionally with them. They’re better at sharing their. With everybody else but me.

[01:49:55] But I know it’s there and I know they’re genuine. I know that they love my kids and I’m very sad that they.

[01:50:06] They’re not going to have that with my kids because a lot of who I am. I think the the good qualities that I have come from my dad. I think that the good qualities he has. I I definitely got some of those and for them to not know who they are as a part of me makes me really sad but at the same time I’m firm on my children not being a part of that.

[01:50:41] I don’t want them to hurt the way I did. I don’t want them to not know what real love is. I don’t want their love for my children to be an additional home. I don’t think that that’s fair on a child especially a child. As an adult it’s whatever. You know people come and go in your life even your family. But as a child I don’t want them to know what that feels like. Maybe that’s sheltering and maybe that’s because of my own upbringing. I’m going to you know go maybe to extreme on that or people might think that that’s a little bit extreme but I I I very much feel that I don’t want my children to go through that. You know my husband didn’t go through that. And he’s a perfectly fine person. You know everything. He knows what we know what it’s like to have love and you know a lot of times they don’t think he understands or he he just really doesn’t know how to relate to me and a lot of things or how I feel but his family’s never done that to him so he is just okay with us not not being close with them because he doesn’t want our children to have to deal with that. So if anything I just want to tell them you know they may look at it like this is my fault but it’s not because I gave them the opportunity to be in their life.

[01:52:08] I just asked them to not pressure me in to anything and to not talk to me about that. No religion anymore.

[01:52:19] And me it doesn’t matter what I have said to other people what they have seen or heard me say to other people or on Facebook or whatever. You know if you wanted to be part of your grand kids life you could of. And you can’t put that we can’t put all of that on me.

[01:52:37] So that’s that’s one of the it’s always one of the saddest things to me is when not only do they shun the ex witness but they shun their kids or they’ll jerk their kids in and out you know that they’ll be there for the kids for a while and then suddenly they’re shining again or whatever. It’s just you would think that if you had a religion and you claimed Jesus to be your Christ to be your exemplar a man who never shunned anyone a man who ate with the tax collectors and the centres a man that drew little kids to hell because he was so sincere. You would think that if you wanted to create something attractive to other people to try to draw them to a religion that you would do so with love and that you would do so with positivity and not fear and shame and guilt and shunning and all this stuff. And it’s it’s so sad that kids get caught in the crossfire of something. You know what did they do they didn’t do anything. And ultimately in the end it’s your parents that are deciding to treat you a certain way. It’s their fault. Jehovah’s Witnesses like to they are so masterful victim shaming or victim blaming they’re so masterful at saying Well you didn’t follow this prescribed course that I set up for you unfairly so therefore because you decided to be you and not be a copy of me and you decided to go your own way. Well therefore you’re a bad person and you have destroyed the family. No because it was an unfair and unrealistic expectation from day one that you conform to something that was their choice and their decision. They got to make that choice. Why don’t you. And it’s it’s just such an unfair thing to put upon people.

[01:55:00] And they like it they like to put that on me though that it was my choice because I got baptized.

[01:55:05] And it’s you know what’s funny is I’m going to speak to your parents or step mom and dad right now. They didn’t get baptized as kids.

[01:55:19] Yeah I don’t really know. No it’s like yeah they don’t know they they were able for whatever reason to skirt that.

[01:55:27] But as kids there’s tremendous pressure to get baptized. And if nothing else I don’t care. What it is. How many things do you hold. So how old were you when you got baptized. Let me ask you.

[01:55:46] I was 16.

[01:55:47] Sixty. How many things do you hold a 16 year old to for the rest of their life.

[01:55:53] How many of the decisions that a person that is 16 years old they make are therefore reflective of an honest decision not undue influence where a person is only ever had really one choice but an honest and true decision to make for the rest of their lives you’re 16 you’re just learning how to drive you can’t get married you can’t drink alcohol.

[01:56:21] Jesus didn’t get baptized till he was 30 and he was the perfect son of God if you believe in the Bible so you know I’ve never understood how they can hold kids to decisions for the rest of their life.

[01:56:35] And do so so callously you know with just this cavalier attitude of well you made the decision you were you were 16. Come on. Like it’s it’s so it’s so unfair it was one thing that I remember in my own story with my brother who is shunned I remember asking my mom one time like how or why are we supposed to shun him for something he did when he was like 13 14 years old whatever it was like it never made sense to me that you could.

[01:57:13] That this kid who grew up with kind of only knowing one way or in a family where there was a lot of pressure or in every kingdom hall there’s pressure put on the children to conform to to their peer pressure to keep up with their friends. If you’re not baptized by a certain age people look down on you and talk about you and the Keenum all holidays they keep their kids away from you.

[01:57:39] How that was the main reason why I felt the pressure was the other younger kids in the hall.

[01:57:45] Yeah yeah. You see them doing it and you gotta keep up and if you don’t you know there’s gonna be consequences. So they’ll even tell you from the platform that you know they’ll talk about the age of accountability and how you know once basically you can think and reason for yourself if you don’t get baptized then God Jehovah is going to hold you responsible anyway so you might as well where I saw him like oh well so-and-so is only an unbaptized publisher just after his publisher you know to be a part of a higher class or something like he’s almost humor like you have yeah.

[01:58:31] Like once you get baptized now you’re a real person and you know I just don’t I don’t understand. I mean I do understand I can intellectualize it but emotionally it’s very hard for me to understand how you can have a baby. You’re it’s one of the most exciting moments in a person’s life I can look back at pictures of my own mom and dad you know holding me as a baby and they were so excited that they got a little baby book and they you know stamp your feet and they put it in the baby book or your fingerprint or whatever.

[01:59:08] All these things and then and then you know you’re excited for that baby’s first steps and you’re excited for all the moments that you’re going to have with that child and then because that child does not take one path that you tried to set them mine you throw them away like garbage.

[01:59:33] It’s me as a parent now I cannot fathom that really I don’t think there’s anything any of my children could do. Later on that would justify in my mind me treating them the way I’ve been treated.

[01:59:52] There’s there’s no there’s nothing.

[01:59:55] It’s just unfathomable. It really is. I really is. I think I mentioned it on on my I’ve mentioned it before somewhere in a podcast but I remember there was this. So hopefully I’m not boring people but there’s a scripture in proverbs. I think it is that that in Jehovah’s Witnesses the New World Translation The Scriptures essentially says to train up a boy in the way in which he should walk and he will not turn aside from it. Yes. And it sounds like here is the way in which you should walk. I’m going to train you to go down this prescribed path and you know you’re going to do that. But in other versions another translation’s it says to train up a boy in the way in which he is bent and he will travel that path. But the difference is it’s in the way in which he is a bit find out who that child is when you have a child you know you’re curious as to who that child is going to be what will they become what will their personality be like. It’s not oh look here’s a little mini me a little robot a little automaton let me program him and he will do this one thing and then if he doesn’t well then you know forget him. You know it’s just it’s just does.

[02:01:13] It’s so inhuman and it really wish that we’re true then everybody in everybody’s family would all be the exact same right. But they’re not. So they’re obviously born with their own personality as much as you try and makes. A person be who you want them to be.

[02:01:33] Or treating a child in to doing one specific thing while it’s up to them whether they’re going to do it or not and yeah whatever happened to the free will that Jehovah’s witnesses talk about Jehovah giving us it gave us free will and he lets us exercise it then who are you to come between me and Jehovah and my free will to decide whether or not good enough to to even say hi to in a store you know.

[02:02:07] Oh yeah.

[02:02:08] Oh my gosh to this I was I wasn’t there mentioned this earlier but I had one of the lessons I had gone to visit my parents.

[02:02:17] There was a man in his daughter whom I shared a hotel room with because my step mom couldn’t go with me to an assembly in southern Michigan so I went with them like just their family and share a room with them. And I’ve known them since birth.

[02:02:37] Like my real mother was friends with this man’s wife and he saw me walking up the path to my parents house and he was walking out of my parents house in him and his daughter who was like 12 literally look the other way the whole time I walked past them and then looked back like he put his hand up to make shade his face thinking I know you know me my whole life.

[02:03:07] You and I shared a hotel room together with your family and you’re going to play pretend like you’re looking at me is going to burn your face.

[02:03:17] How is this all a me. And I told my stepmom when I walked into the house. Can you believe that he did that to me and she’s like Well I think that these things are not supposed to end. You know she’s like What. Why that also is why I’m going to tell your dad and he’s going to say something to him.

[02:03:35] No. What is he conceded that guy Edwards couldn’t change anything. I don’t care. I’m just irritated that he had to go so far.

[02:03:43] As to block his face literally throwing a shoe that he literally threw shirt at you. Yes.

[02:03:53] So childish. You know it’s just it’s sad what the religion seems to devolve humans in to these petulant children who throw fits. Is this really sad.

[02:04:08] Well when I when I was thinking the whole time to is what did I do to you. No I did nothing to you. I am still that same person that you knew.

[02:04:20] For either what I did to leave what I did to be this fellowship had nothing to do with anybody else other than I made that decision.

[02:04:33] And yeah maybe I was disfellowshipped but how does that really affect you personally for you to think you can treat it that way.

[02:04:41] Well I mean that’s one of the things that that makes it Koltai you know. Yes you know.

[02:04:48] Well so let’s let’s in this on a more positive note.

[02:04:54] Yes. You’ve got this new life you’re free you’ve got three kids right. Yes yes. And they are adorable. I’ve seen them on Facebook. So you know what do you enjoy about this new life that you’ve got so far in India what are your dreams for the future what are you what are your hopes.

[02:05:20] My favorite thing I think about being in this new life not have I mean of course I say I’m affected by it otherwise I would be on your show you know. But in I just feel like I’m so happy that my kids don’t have to deal with that own. I will take on anything to prevent them from going through something and then to see them be as happy as they are like with my husband’s family or my mother or people in my mother’s family. And I’m creating bonds with those people and just in the back of my mind I feel like even if I’m not super close to that person or I’m not best friends with you know my husband’s sister or something.

[02:06:14] My kids get to build relations excuse me relationship with these people and their relationships not mine.

[02:06:23] I have no say over it. I have no idea. You can’t see that person anymore because you worry. You know we don’t like them anymore because you know they get to choose whom they love who they have a relationship with and build off of that. And just more people who love my kids and want to be in their lives. That really brings a lot of joy to me. Even just having relationships with my own kids because I don’t see them as little mini me or little mini Eric Seasonale they. Either my 6 month old has his own personality and just seeing them grow. It’s weird because I never wanted kids. I love me like that was like the first thing on my To Do list her was to have kids and then when I had I was just like oh my gosh in the womb my husband didn’t want to have more than two. I was a little upset. We ended up having three and I was like OK we can like that’s enough. We can’t necessarily afford to just keep having kids. You help sell an out. I love him. You know he Kim and I are so different now. We have a lot of things in common. We live very kind of separate lives like I said because I’m a stay at home mom and he is in the army. And then he’s also has a civilian job.

[02:07:56] He works a lot. And I’m so grateful for that. But I think that because we live very separate. When we come together it’s really good. We have a really good time. We share a lot of family time.

[02:08:11] And he actually might go on a nine month deployment next year to Kuwait. And.

[02:08:19] You know he came home and he’s like oh I didn’t want to make a decision without talking to you first. I mean I think a lot of times he doesn’t realize how like in-sync we are because he’s like well I just want to be sure like that if I did that you wouldn’t be mad at me. And I told him I said you signed up for the Army if they ask you to do that. You go do it because that’s what you signed up for. Like I’m supposed to support you 100 percent in whatever you do. And he’s like okay good cause like eyes like what an offer to do for sure. But I just want to make sure that we were okay. You know I never really had a relationship like that with another person so. I guess I just am loving our marriage and having our kids and we live very simple. You know we have a small house and I’m okay with that. You know I think being a Jehovah’s Witness they teach you to live very simple. And I kind of I I did like that about them you know to not be very materialistic. And we do live very simply. But I think we find a lot more joy in things not having to. I don’t know. We just we do.

[02:09:34] Don’t worry about a lot of other things that I feel like people with a lot of money can end up worrying about I guess it never leaves us trade. There are so many tradeoffs and low yes.

[02:09:50] And that’s as Atholl you know what. What you enjoy. It sounds like sounds like you’ve got really you’ve kind of got everything you want. You know you’re happy and I think that.

[02:10:03] You know in talking to my sister mom and dad they always say I hope you’re happy and I’m like Well I think you you know like I know you thought that it wouldn’t be possible or something or maybe I didn’t deserve to be happy but. So.

[02:10:21] Thanks. Now I think a lot of times a lot of times some of those comments honestly are reflective of their own unhappiness. Because it’s not it’s not. I don’t know. I can’t speak for all of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I can just say that I in enough congregations and pretty much everybody was depressed and unhappy. Though they claim to be differently. When you really get down to talking to them or you know someone many of them had to be medicated for depression and different things not you know there’s nothing wrong with that. But when you claim to be the happiest people on earth. And everyone is kind of deeply unhappy at their core and searching for this using this religion as an escape. It’s just it’s not happy or healthy and you know here you are you leave you actually find happiness and you know what you thought you should have always had inside the organization is what you know by and large most of all the people that I’ve been talking to they find on the outside of whatever that organization was. It’s it’s sad to say that you know bad things.

[02:11:43] Don’t happen to people on the outside. There’s been a lot of things that have been like Roadmaster that I have gone through with. You know worldly people on the outside it in scary situations but. You know it can happen to anybody and it goes both ways.

[02:12:06] Right. That’s right.

[02:12:09] Yeah there’s good and bad on both sides. You know people are just people ultimately. But it’s a lot. I think it’s a lot easier to find happiness in freedom though there is more responsibility with it than there is in captivity.

[02:12:28] Yes for sure.

[02:12:30] Portière Well is there anything that you wanted to say that I didn’t get a chance to ask you you know or we skipped over.

[02:12:44] Well not really I would like to put a shout out there to a couple of people.

[02:12:52] You know the girl Michel that I talked about she was disfellowshipped a couple years after me and her and I reconnected and are friends again were real you know. Oh yeah she is really cool person she is. I keep telling her she needs to listen to your show.

[02:13:09] I think it’s really triggering for her though because like I said like all a lot of her family is still and even her brother in law had become an elder and at a public event told her she needed to leave because she was making everyone uncomfortable in a public event. It was like a festival like out outdoor that’s the vote for the town and he told her she needed to leave because he she was making everyone uncomfortable.

[02:13:40] I’m like girl you’ve got to find an outlet.

[02:13:44] They think she struggles with stuff sometimes two things in front of a big thing for a lot of us is taking your power back.

[02:13:53] Yes. You know what.

[02:13:56] But look you know shout out to Michelle for getting out here being free.

[02:14:03] There’s that there’s a couple of young people that were in the Kingdom Hall that have had later found out have left them not necessarily good friends with them after the fact because we didn’t really have a lot in common in it other than we were in it in the same age type thing but it kind of gives me hope for them. You know because when you’re in it for a long time when you’re an adult and you leave it sucks cause you feel like oh I wasted a lot of my life. But at the same time what could I have done differently for you know my kids or my grandkids or whatever. And these young people that are leaving I feel like it. It warms my heart a little bit because I feel like they have a chance to make their generation and the next generation different.

[02:14:52] You know that’s beautiful. I am always encouraged when I see young people come out. I have a member of a forum and I see people come out come onto the forum who are like 12 13 years old who can already see that it’s it’s bullshit.

[02:15:18] You know and I’m like oh man I wish it was over 13 I could have seen that and wasted decades of my life in it.

[02:15:26] And it’s funny how I just feel like you know those witnesses all when there’s world peace then you know the end is coming. And if they only know that technology was going to make it so that people would join their cult in the end.

[02:15:45] They have not protected that after the true religion that the Internet is going to follow.

[02:15:50] Now there are some people right now who are who are trippin because North Korea and South Korea are are having peaceful relations or whatever and so you know Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that when there’s going to be this cry of peace and security that the end is going to come and you know the funny thing is about that cry of peace and security is that originally at one point they thought that it was going to be that basically the world was going to be in such a bad state of affairs that people would be crying out for peace and security because they were hoping to have it and then Armageddon would come and Jehovah would usher in this new system of peace and security.

[02:16:35] And

[02:16:35] then they they kind of backpedaled and said Well you know we don’t know maybe it’ll be a time where it appears that mankind is on the brink of peace and security. And you can’t play it both ways. Like in other words. So when North and South Korea looked like they were going to be at war just a year ago you know Jehovah’s Witnesses said oh look you know things are getting tense over there the INS going to come. Now things are going better over there and it’s like oh peace and security here.

[02:17:10] I’m like no crying wolf either way. Right right.

[02:17:14] It’s

[02:17:14] always coming tomorrow. It’s been coming to morrow for over a century. Yes. Even before that you know 1914 if we’re going to start the beginning of that century they thought that’s when the end was coming.

[02:17:28] So

[02:17:28] let me think so too with all the world wars at that time.

[02:17:33] Right. They’ve just they’ve constantly changed. Yeah. Yeah. It’s this doesn’t it doesn’t fit. But anyway.

[02:17:43] Was

[02:17:43] there anyone else that you wanted to shout out.

[02:17:48] Now it is said that Michelle and I you know were we’re friends again. Like I said I’m not super close to anybody else on there and I’ve made some really really good friends.

[02:17:58] Now

[02:17:59] here in Indianapolis there they’ll say so they’ll sit there and they’ll like suffering through listening to my story isn’t. I appreciate that. I really feel like I found a couple of really really good friends here now in Indianapolis so I don’t feel as well feels lonely. You know it’s one thing to have a significant other but they can’t always fill every role for you. You know you kind of have to have other friends too and for a long time I did it. But now I feel like I do.

[02:18:30] So coming up through a past the first demographer make some more friends.

[02:18:34] Heck

[02:18:34] yeah I’m going to her it.

[02:18:36] It’ll

[02:18:37] be fun.

[02:18:37] Oh

[02:18:38] there’s quite a few people there last year. So

[02:18:42] what does I mean by WhatsApp.

[02:18:46] I

[02:18:46] say you’ll have to send me the invite saying go oh oh you’re not I don’t know if you knew the people or whatever. Ok yeah I’ll definitely some that to you. Yeah yeah.

[02:18:56] Offer

[02:18:57] that to make a note to do that.

[02:19:04] Yeah I’ll do that. I mean they invite hundreds and hundreds of people. I mean not everyone can come and they’re inviting people from a large geographical area. I think last year there was like maybe 30 people or something like that. But yeah I’ll send you the invitation.

[02:19:28] As

[02:19:29] always I want to thank Sydnee for being so open about her life and I’m really glad that she’s free and her kids never have to grow up in a cult. My wife and I look forward hopefully to going up where she lives and hanging out again sometime. Now I mentioned at the end there and in the intro there was an apostate fest. So the weekend of September the 8th and 9th I’m going to release an episode comprised of a bunch of many interviews that I did while I was at that Apostafest. They were originally going to be a bonus at the end of this episode but there’s enough good stuff there that I’m just going to go ahead and make it an episode of its own through it. You’re going to get to meet a bunch of people get to know their lives a little bit get some idea of who might be in an apostrophe fest if you ever have the opportunity to attend one sometime. All right now for the big announcement I started a Facebook group. I know there’s a ton of Jehovah’s Witness Facebook groups but this one is for fans and guests of the podcast. I don’t want it just to be that typical J-dub group where people keep up with the latest happenings in the cult. I want this to be for anyone that listens to the show and left any cults or religion. I guess you don’t even technically have to be a listener but I don’t know how you’re going to find out about it otherwise. But my goal is to make this a fun and supportive group. It’s about things that these stories are about people’s lives their feelings their what they want out of life. Trying to find that after leaving a call things like that. So I’ve already started one thread where people who were guests of the show can raise their hand and you can meet them. There’s another tribe where you can introduce yourself and write some of your own story to meet and to share with others. And then on the weekend my plan is to do what I’m calling an SCS thread or self care Saturday or Sunday where people can share something that they’re doing over the weekend for themselves.

[02:21:38] It’s not easy when you leave a cult to learn self care our whole lives typically revolved around the whims really of whatever call or group we were in. So you know maybe if you still struggle with self care maybe I’ll see what some other people are doing for themselves and get some ideas for yourself. So my point is that the goal is to make this a support group for all of us. The goal of this podcast isn’t just to focus on former Jehovah’s Witnesses. My goal is to help us all see that across these different cults or groups. We aren’t alone not only within our group but even outside our group we’re not alone. There are other people in this world that are going through or have gone through the same types of things.

[02:22:25] So we can all learn from one another whether we left the witnesses the FLDS the Mennonites or any other group the name of the group is Shunned Podcast. Two words and it’s a closed group so you’ll have to sign up and get approved to join by making it closed. Only members can see who’s in it. Now with that said I can’t control who gets in and verify who every person is. I can however kick out troublemakers with the quickness and if you’re super worried about being discovered. My suggestion would be to maybe create an account with a pseudonym and join that way. So come find us on Facebook at the group called shunned podcast and let’s do something good. I’ve already got several of the guests that have been on the show in there. Some listeners that saw my post on Facebook about it and it’s already fun to be honest so the more the merrier. Speaking of doing good between this podcast and This JW Life where I told my story we now have over 40000 total individual downloads. I never would have believed when I started thisJ.W. life that it would have grown like this. There are still people to this day that find an instar episode one of thisJ.W. a life lesson through that go through the whole this Jadaliyya life episode list and then come join us on shunned. You know I get really cool e-mails from people that have been helped to wake up by the podcasts people that are out but now know that they aren’t alone that they aren’t bad in some way and people that now understand that you know jata relative or friend and honestly you know some of these other groups. The Mennonites LDS whatever you know it’s people understanding you know what somebody else in another group went through. And by doing so they understand better what they went through themselves. I want to go ahead and take a moment and personally thank Sarah Kristen David and Lindy for signing up at Patreon.com/shunned to help support the show financially. They signed up just in the month of August. You can do so for as little as a dollar. And it really helps. You know right now I’m in the middle of doing extra episodes and with extra episodes comes extra costs. If I get these new these other ones transcribed that costs money as well as well as it takes more time. So again that’s Patry on dot com slash shunned if you’re interested in helping to support the show. I’m actually kicking around some ideas. I’ll probably start a thread in the group the Facebook group once we get a good sampling of people in there. I have so many people that are reaching out to me that want to sell their stories. At the present rate of one episode per month. I really can’t keep up with demand so I’m considering going to maybe two a month and I’m kind of trying it right now. As you can see here in August and September but you know there’s a there’s a limit to what I can do and work like I need to to make ends meet or at least like I do in our cleaning business. If I could do something like this and help people and take some pressure off cleaning financially I could spend more time doing this. We’re looking at options ourselves as far as cutting down some cleaning because frankly we’re running ourselves into the ground anyway just in that part of our life. So there you go. There’s part of self care right. Don’t run yourself into the ground in whatever business you have. I know that you know this podcast helps people I know that not only listeners are Hultz but people who get to tell their stories it helps to process your own stuff to kind of sit it down and maybe be able to walk away from it a little bit to get some perspective on it if nothing else. And I want to help as many other stories as possible but the reality is that there is only so many hours in a day and so much energy I can give mentally and emotionally to the interviews and production.

[02:26:41] This past month I did try to do an interview every weekend and I enjoyed doing it but it does take something from you mentally and emotionally to just frankly just to interview anyone but you know some of our stories are are pretty harsh. And you know I’m not immune to the impacts of listening to these stories and digging them out and bringing them out. So you know I’d like to be able to do more and I’m working on that as a potential option. Again I’ll post in the Facebook group Shawn podcast and and we’ll kind of have a discussion about what people want. You know I don’t know if my listeners are are interested in more content or if what I’m doing right now is enough more than enough for people to try to keep up with. You know I want to know what you want and try to I. I want to do all these myself. So don’t don’t think you’re saving me from myself by saying you know 1 a month is good enough for me and I can barely keep up as it is. If that’s true that’s fine. But if you would like more of these let me know and it is my desire to help everybody but at the same time obviously I realize that I can’t.

[02:28:12] So anyway trying to strike that balance there is what I’m looking for. And so I’m open to input their if you’d like to leave a comment for Sydney. You can do so at show podcasts dot com on the episodes page. And in a new Facebook group I think I’m going to put a post up every time I release an episode and you can also leave comments there of support or questions or whatever. For the people who who did the podcast and then if they’re a member of the group they can actually respond to their you can also support the by leaving a five star review on iTunes. There’s a link right in the description that is probably available on your app where you can do so. You can get all the information you need in the description on my site or from your podcast app. Follow us on Twitter Instagram or YouTube. As Sean podcast one word I even just put out on in person a video a vodcast on YouTube that you might like. The song that Sydney chose to represent her journey is playing God by Perry more and there’s a link in the description to the song if you’d like to listen or watch the video. It’s my bad. I’ve been neglecting to mention people’s songs. Trying to remember what all the put in the intro was an outgrowth of these episodes so you can go to shun podcasts dot com and see the songs chosen by each participant. The music for the podcast is about Fair Voyeur and titled No hell yet and until next week love others do no harm and go be happy.

Jason is shunned by Jehovah’s Witnesses.mp3

[00:00:41] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we expose religions that use shunning as a tool to control people. I told you that I had some bonus episodes coming out. And this is the first I was able to interview JASON TOWNSEND And when I set up the interview I didn’t even know that he had a book coming out at the same time. So it was kind of a surprise to me and I wanted to get this one out to go ahead and consult coincide with the book release. So let’s go ahead learn a little bit about Jason and then I’ll tell you more about his book After the interview. My name’s Jason Townsend I’m 34 years old. I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I’m shunned. All right Jason so then how did you come to be a witness in the first place. I was born into it. My dad is an elder in Lancaster Pennsylvania. It’s kind of where near where jackass is filmed. We lived in Amish country. So religion marries as thick as molasses. Yes I thought we were normal compared to the Amish. Not really. Yeah that’s interesting. I assume you ran into a lot of Amish people when you were out in your door to door ministry work. Yeah yeah. We would actually try to you know speak to the Amish. They were they were never very responsive. I don’t think it was back. I don’t think there was ever an person that had even come to a meeting. But we tried anyway.

[00:02:11] Yeah that’s interesting I was you know we never had anything quite like that in our territory. I always wonder you know how people fare when they’re trying to talk to people that you know have such staunch religious beliefs in their own community and all that that’s so insular. I always wondered how how witnesses would fare trying to get anybody out of that charge to offer them electricity. Yeah. Yeah yeah. They’re so certain in their ways it’s but then you know I think the Jehovah’s Witnesses are exactly the same as the Amish. So it’s both very stubborn. And basically when you approach the Amish they make a lot of time just pretend they don’t speak English. Oh really. Yeah that’s that’s actually a trick that maybe a lot of people out there listening might want to come to their door. You understand the little German that you can yell YEAH YOU. All right so then so you know that’s an interesting place to be raised as a witness so you know how did your how did your parents come to be witnesses you mentioned your dad was an elder. You know how far does this go back in your family. OK. Ellen my great grandfather Max he was actually a Swiss inventor in Zurich Switzerland and he had a son who went in to World War Two. He got he came back with PTSD really bad. So when he answered the door he was ready. He needed something. He was suffering from everything he had seen in World War 2. So he was an easy convert to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. So consequently my mom was born into it. My dad’s mom.

[00:04:10] She answered the door and she had an abusive husband. Yeah. My grandpa was was nuts. He joined up so like my grandmother she needed something really bad his her home life wasn’t. So she joined up and then consequently my dad who is the oldest of eight. He was he was Jehovah’s Witness since he was about like 13 I think and he really took a liking to that. So my time trickled down to me. That’s all I knew from birth to very staunch parents and where your grandparents still in their religion and around at that time or if you had that extra influence. What’s kind of weird is yeah I know my grandfather on my dad’s side the one who was an alcoholic cause he died young. I mean I think I was like 10 so pretty much all of my influences were heavy Jehovah’s Witnesses my mom my mom’s dad he ended up being an elder and they were all pretty hardcore that include like do you have like cousins and uncles and aunts that were in the in the quote truth you know back then as well. Yeah yeah. The only ones I was allowed to know were Jehovah’s Witnesses. I like it said my dad my dad’s. He’s one of the eight. So there is actually he has several brothers I hardly know. Even though I see them I’ve seen them around when I go to my grandmother’s house. They have like a giant mechanic’s garage in Pennsylvania and it’s a pretty popular place. And they all work there except for my dad.

[00:06:11] So it was just weird when I visit my grandma I’d see them walking around and you know my parents be like you know don’t talk to them. The most friendly uncle they would walk around look like a friendly guy wanted to talk to. He had gotten a divorce. So he was like the devil and I was allowed to talk to him which can suck. So I wrote about half of my aunts uncles and cousins that I don’t know because they weren’t Jehovah’s Witnesses. Yeah. It’s amazing how that works and how isolated you end up even in your own family. So then you know you you do have quite a few people surrounding you still you know even though there are others who you’re not allowed to talk to who are witnesses what what did it mean to you back then you know as a young person being raised in the religion. Was it something you love there or did you kind of feel strange about it all. Yeah. I was I was a really curious kid like a curiosity. It’s got me into trouble and it’s also the thing that has led me to learn everything I know. And I was a little kid I was a eager little kid who just loved people and I love being part of something. And I was I was into it. You know I wanted to be the best witness when I was a kid. Yeah. Did you. Did you have siblings or were you the oldest known the middle child. I have. Yeah I have an older brother who’s like 14 years older me who I actually didn’t know he had gotten kicked out when I was like.

[00:07:55] As soon as he turned 18 he went to senior week and that was the last straw for my parents and I just remember a fistfight in the doorway. I didn’t see my brother again for me. I basically still don’t know him. And I have. And I have a little sister who’s 2 years younger than me. And slowly but surely my parents are pretty much kicked out or pretty much everyone their kids. So yeah they there they have a way of driving people away. So then you’re you’re wanting to be this uber Dubb you know here you’re wanting to do this you can be. What was the way you know how did you see the world then you know growing up. I was terrified of it. They basically had me trained to hear the word world as a curse word. You know the world is a scary place. You know they kind of define the word worldly as like a slave to corruption an unbeliever outside of Jehovah’s one true religion the truth. So I came home from public school with news that I’d made a friend I’d immediately be corrected. You know my dad would say no you didn’t make a friend. You made an acquaintance. Yeah. So I had to keep conversations at school about school or use it as a preaching opportunity. Yeah. Your own private little territory as you. That’s like us sending us to school was infiltrating. Yeah yeah. We had a captive audience and they had to listen to us. Yeah man this is so miserable. It sucks. Yeah. So then how did you how did you fare.

[00:09:57] You know let’s let’s talk about school. How do you fare in school as a young witness. I was an outcast. I mean I loved actually being at school in elementary school. You know the holidays were still celebrated in public school and I guess it was early 90s late 80s and in elementary school. I’d go in at the beginning of the year and my mom would make this big Ziploc bag full of little snacks and she’d give it to the teacher. So during holiday parties pretty much any party they had. I wasn’t allowed to participate. And for one reason or another. So I was sent out to the hallway to eat my little snack alone during these parties. I didn’t salute the flag. I wasn’t really supposed to be too friendly or body up you know like we talked about any schoolmates. So it wasn’t hard enough I stuck out like a sore thumb and then sometimes the beginning of the year my mom would come into the class and explain why I was so weird to everyone which just made it even worse. Yeah. Then you go out ministry and sometimes you bump into one. So that was also fun. Wow I’m trying to think like the whole SMAC thing like I’m trying to think is that a kind thing she did and that you know she at least wanted you to be able to have something special. What are you sitting out in the hall or. Yeah. Is it kind of sad because you were deprived like maybe you could have sat in the hall but had some of the snacks that the other kids had. No.

[00:11:41] Yeah. Maybe maybe she looked at it like a cat and they want to touch that act out of you. You felt this way too. But yeah you know like I can’t actually even thought of the food as being evil like I would even take a bite of a birthday cake because it’s got Satan in it. Oh yeah. Yeah. You might go off and behead someone if you if you like of the birthday cake. Right. My mom was a really loving person. We had a as long as everyone felt like we had a very tight family. And yet I think she was really it was a gesture of love. Yeah yeah. It sounds like she was trying to to acknowledge your feelings and that you know at least if you’re gonna stay out in the hallway you know you should have something that makes you feel special. Yeah. That’s pretty cool. I was her special boy but like a lot of Jehovah’s Witnesses she was just clueless as to how that actually made me look in reality. Sure my back. Yeah yeah for sure. So then what about at home. You know how is your life at home. You know speaking of your mom and your dad your how is your life growing up as a child at home. Back at home we studied for church almost a year. The meetings almost constantly. And just a little bit for school. Secular Education was very secondary. We had material we had to study for meetings. There were three meetings per week.

[00:13:15] At that time at least one at least one day and field service as a bare minimum. So I was a really busy kid you know my dad was an elder. Even when we were studying for the meetings at home we had a really think about our answers to the material. It wasn’t just you know like yes or no we had to go in depth know because there’s this kind of competition you know at the meetings. There’s this whole like framework that exists in the Jehovah’s Witness system that other people don’t think about too much and that it goes into like how good your answers are at meetings you how people decide how good of a Jehovah’s Witness you are based on how deep you go into your answer. So so we we always try to be the best you know get the best answers. So it took a lot of study and I wanted to study for school. But we spent like 90 percent of our time studying religious materials so I was just constantly busy when I was at home. Yeah you know. Two things that you said that struck me and one is you said you had three meetings back then. But what I always found interesting and it just popped into my head. You know we would always say well the organization would always promote how awesome it was that they had five meetings a week because you know Thursday was technically even though it was one meeting you were going to it was broken up into two parts and they called those meetings Theocratic Ministry School. And the service made. Right.

[00:15:02] And then on Sunday you had the public meeting the public talk and the Watchtower study. And I thought Oh yeah it just struck me how you know I would always say we have three meetings a week. You just said we had three meetings a week. But the society the Watchtower Society would always say we have five meetings a week. And you can see how we can make it sound more psycho. Yeah yeah. You can see how even even the way that they count the number of meetings they have is to try to make it sound more than it does. It’s just it just struck me as you said that it was something I always wondered about when I was a kid. I was like why do we why do we say we have five meetings. I mean we go to the Keenum Hall three times a week. You know each time is a meeting. We are meeting each time we go. But somehow I guess they acted like we left and came back for the second part. It’s really weird like they don’t say we have. I just think for their regional conventions they call them now they don’t say like they’ll say we have three days of conventions but they don’t say we have like you know I don’t know how many parts individual parts there are at a convention. They don’t think we. We have four to eight conventions every week you know.

[00:16:20] You know I think one of the lawyers in Bethel came up with that kind of struck me as strange and then also just the fact that you were talking about how how at the meetings it wasn’t just because we were all we were all being judged on you know not just where are we paying attention but why are we commenting and raising our hands and participating. But then it even went a step farther like you said and it’s how good are your comments. Do you right. Do they show that you are fully like accepting the brainwashing and taking it within yourself so that you can say it in your own words and you have an even maybe go beyond what they’re saying. It’s just amazing how we were basically lauded for self brainwashing. Yeah. You know even though down to the way we dressed. Yes. You know the kids that that didn’t dress quite right. They were kind of assumed not to be very zealous wherever. So as an elder’s kid. Any any clue David anyone in the congregation that might be a bad influence I couldn’t even talk to. So I stuck out an extra Sawka so I’m guessing you had somewhere. So you know there were the brothers who wore the full suits you know with Mat pants and jacket. And then there were the brothers who wore the you know they would come in with khakis and a sport coat or whatever. And they were looked at differently than the brothers who wore the full suit that was matchy matchy. So you know. Yeah. You had to one up each other there too. I know I got involved in the. I can’t peacocks you know that’s the way you can express yourself as a young person.

[00:18:11] You’re you’re meeting cause you know you might dress like a golfer and ordinary life but they got you know the nicest suit and tie to wear a meeting. I wanted to be like one of the khaki kids. I kind of like get mired down. Yeah me too. But I had it. Yes. Oh yeah. If you’re going to give a part on a convention you have to wear a full suit you can’t wear the khakis and jacket. Oh you get booed off the stage. Yeah yeah. They won’t even let you up there if you if you’re not matchy like that. Yeah yeah. Definitely been there done that. Yeah I had a buy. I remember I was one time I was going to be on a convention and I didn’t own a suit. We were pretty poor. And I remember I had to go out and buy a suit so that I could give my PA on the convention because they wouldn’t let me up if yeah yeah didn’t look the best and it just shows so much of it is about appearance as we’ve been discussing already. So how did you feel you know in these in these different settings you know at home school and church or the Keenum Hall you know how I know you mentioned at school you know you felt somewhat like an outcast. But what about at home and in the Keenum Hall. What were your feelings as a kid. In the Kingdom Hall I was a really enthusiastic kid. I was eager to take on responsibility. I like to please so I wanted to be the most righteous kid in the whole congregation.

[00:19:48] So as an elders kid I was like a superpower and I actually alienated myself without knowing it to the kids in my own congregation. They were scared of my zeal or they were just jealous and they wanted outranked me. I was like a dumb little puppy. Add too much energy. I loved everyone but I got smacked on the nose most of the time from my dad. The other elders loved me. My dad always pushed me to do more. And frankly I think my energy just annoy the hell out of him. But my parents loved me in the years when I lapped up all the spiritual crap shoveled out me and I played by the rules at school. I did at his fellow Guardian belong there. But it was it was also the thing I was most curious about. Being at school and and just learning about the world it was like a giant elephant in our family room. I know a lot of energy and curiosity. And I was encouraged to farm the curiosity for the Jehovah’s Witnesses. But anything regarding world the world or school and I really love science and computers computers were just starting to become a thing. That was all that was stifled pretty heavily. Yes I can I can only imagine. I mean it sounds like your dad was pretty hardcore Yeah. He does. Borderline abusive sometimes so yeah. Preach they kind of raised us in the truth with an iron fist you know. So I mean you already mentioned something about your brother. Oh yeah. You know so you know it sounds like things were pretty heavy handed. Yeah yeah absolutely. I mean I still even I forgot.

[00:21:55] I forgot about just a few minutes. I actually know more about the guy down gas station than I do my brother. Well then how did how did things go. You know presumably you know I assume you got baptized at some point. How did things go as you started to get older and and you know go into your teenager years and young adulthood. Yeah. OK so at 12 I got baptized and I was working on being a ministerial servant auxiliary pioneer whenever I could. As I got into my teenage years and had puberty started here that’s when things got really difficult for me. So you know as a teen you feel more pressure to find your pack find your place to fit in. And I did. I didn’t have any good friends in the Jehovah’s Witnesses. You know because what I said before I said I was so hard core most kids were scared of me or I was allowed to have friends at school. And the older I got the more I wanted to be social. And I like to kids at school. I was curious about because I didn’t know much about them even though it’s shoulder to shoulder with them every day. So I would sneak friendships and of course I like girls. I like them a lot. It was almost weird how much I like girls that there is girls were like called a house and my mom would scream because you know we had recorded phone that was leashed to the wall.

[00:23:38] There was a few of them around the house and I were like brought home a cordless phone one time and hung it on the wall. Within like an hour my dad had taken it down thrown in the trash bin and put the cord one back up so we’d be left to the. Let’s hit it. Yeah. So anyway as soon as girls would call my mom we’d pick up and tell them you know this is not what we want for our son. Don’t call your. Which made it. I go back to school blowdown my neighbor my closest neighbour we lived out in the woods kind of in the middle of nowhere. But my closest neighbor was a Jehovah’s Witness. My parents had bought our acre of land from another job as a witness so that the path of least resistance would lead right to another job as witness front door. It was like a year old maybe we are gone through puberty together and we ordered a playboy and we got caught. He actually told on himself that ended up being this huge thing and the shame that everybody carry is where they fall on themselves. Oh yeah I mean and it turns out you know from me from just going through puberty you get to just some of things I put together later I it turns out he’s totally repressed homosexual. He’s still on the religion so he’s probably still not out the closet but I just feel bad for him he’s pretending to be somebody else and in my teenage years my parents were starting to catch me and punish me right left like every day for trying to sneak a look at girls or doing something you know going through the Sears catalog.

[00:25:15] Get the brass section and stuff it trying to talk to worldly kids and so they were tightening the leash. I mean I couldn’t do anything. Yeah I mean that the tighter they they they pull in that leash. I mean then the more any little thing that you do is going to be stimulating whether it’s you know seeing the bra section of the serious catalog and just trying to even look at a girl or whatever like yeah you know the more you you forbid something the more enticing it becomes oftentimes in life. And it sounds like wow they were they were just so tough on you. Yeah I have to ask you were you were baptized that’s 12. Why did you get baptized or what. If you think back you know did you feel pressure or did you. Were you just into it that much. Or you know kind of a do you know what was behind it I was find that interesting. Seemed like I got the pressure but I know I do remember just this little thing like when I went to get baptized my dad kind of gave the prerequisite of like you know we’re not pushing you to do this. But I mean everything my whole life I’m still this way anything I want to do I’m going to do balls into a wall and I just wanted to be you know one of the first kids in my peer group to get baptized in. At the time I really really believed it. And I got baptized for the right reasons. But like you said that the tighter they yanked the harder I pulled away. Yes.

[00:27:11] It goes back to that I think I talked about it in and podcast the state of your life but it goes back to that illustration. They would always use of the spring and how a child was like a spring in and you compressed this spring. And if you let go of the spring too fast then you know the child will just bounce everywhere and go wild. But if you slowly release the pressure on that spring you can control the direction that it goes. And my question which I’ve mentioned on the podcast was Why do you have to crush the spring in the first place right. Right. And that’s what they were doing to you they were absolutely crushing you from every angle it seems like. Yeah. That’s funny you said that. I wrote my book about it and I described it as as a rubber band. So like a scene you know I kind of snapped and I just fell right to the ground. And all this kinetic just wasted. Yeah yeah that that makes a lot of sense. I mean you know both illustrations are so accurate. You know I mean I can I can totally see you know that rubber band that holds so much energy. But you know you can only pull on it for so long before it’s going to break. Yeah and once it does it’s useless. I mean it’s just the first nothing much you can do at that you’ve you know broken broken it pretty badly. So so how did that go for you then.

[00:28:43] You know as far as you know being this rubber band let’s say and you know being having them pulling on you so tightly as you you know progressed in your young adulthood. How did things transpire. Yeah it was a pretty dramatic snap so I know like I said I was baptized when I was 12 and by the time I’ve been working since I was 15 just to get out the house I was starting to feel the byproduct of them encouraging me to study all the time was when I started to read about how about the other religions I forget which book it is now been out for almost 20 years but mankind’s search for God brother. There you go. Yeah. Well I didn’t understand was why I had to read their description of this religion. Yes. And yeah I started to kind of look outside I sneak to the library at school and I I start to fight to find loopholes in it. A lot of loopholes that I thought were there when I’m talking like 14 15 years old. They were just like a feeling it was just a bad feeling I had and I really loved everybody. And I just wanted to learn more about those things. So I guess I was working since I was 15 and I had a little bit of money saved up and I bought a car as soon as I turned 16. My parents didn’t know about it. I hid it in our woods. And I started kind of covertly dating this this Catholic girl at school. So yeah like at 16 shoot she was white. The first love of my life. And I’d sneak over there. They know it.

[00:30:41] They knew I had a job at a hardware store and they kind of they didn’t like it. They did not like that I had a job. I just kind of insisted on it. So my dad would follow me around town. I didn’t know it but he was he was talented and I got caught having dinner at the Catholic girls house. My dad he said he was following me around and he basically ripped me out of their house. I think he just walked right in and it was a huge thing like grab me by the back of a shirt. And they were all freaked out. And he’s like this is not work. This isn’t what I want for our son. You know you have no idea. He’s like you know he kind of tried to apologize a little bit like I know you guys on dad but he does. I mean this family is this Catholic family. I was at I mean to this day. They’re pretty much the model example of what a good family should look like an yeah. It didn’t make any sense to me that my dad was yanking me out of there. And pretty that’s pretty traumatic. Yeah awful. Well when somebody a worldly family had had saw that my my girlfriend’s family day they were like okay sometimes you’re right sometimes actually a little weird at your house and they kind of they kinda encouraged me a little bit to to leave. I guess around there they were very worried about me but they I think I took the reassurance that they thought it was weird.

[00:32:24] Pretty heavily and I took that car and hid in the woods and I left at 10 o’clock at night. I packed everything I had gathered my whole life since birth into a trash bag. I was pretty fit and I had this big try to sneak out of the house I had this big blow up with my dad. We were out. First time ever curst out him was in the front yard. He got in the car tried to chase me down and it was a huge thing aired but I got away. I had a sleep in my car for a while. I’m like 16 and I was bouncing around different kids houses who just thought he was crazy. What I was going through you know I stated some pretty shady bad places but I made sure I always went to school everyday. The school was the structure it needed. As a teenager were now without a family. Eventually that Catholic girl’s family they felt bad for my situation. And they took me in. So like at 16 17 I was living with my girlfriend and her Catholic family. And it was great man. If I felt so happy and relieved and excited to have Peligros finally normal and this weight had lifted off me and I was free and just run around still like a dumb puppy. But Dejour did your family like that they reach out to you. Did they try to either kindly reach out to you and encourage you to come back and show love. Or did they even like an authoritarian you know come at you with the you know you’re coming home type thing you know they did.

[00:34:11] Was there some way that they did they attempt to go after you at all. Yeah a little bit but. So when it first happened I think yeah there they were. We didn’t have cellphones back then. So they were trying to track me down and I actually I think I went back and it only lasted a day or two. Just having a little taste of freedom was like. I mean I went back for maybe like a day or two just out of being torn away from my family. And like what that felt like to go to sleep at night and I said No you’re your family. Is away from you. You know it was a very emotional thing. So I try to go back in and they treated my see they already already had my brother who went through this. So they can’t I had practice. They decided that it was best to treat this with like a jailer you know. And they were even more rigid and so when I went back it only lasted a day or two and I was like Screw this I’m out of here. And then they decided to be real assholes. When I left home and I’m sure you understand there’s this dynamic that when somebody leaves there they’re dangerous. MARTIN You know I was becoming worldly and my at that time I had just got my driver’s license and if you’re under 18 your parent can revoke the license so the only way I was getting school and work and stuff with my car. They my dad voluntarily revoked my driver’s license so even though I wasn’t living at home I never saw them.

[00:36:04] He just kind of like stock 1 2 million and revoke that license to make it harder for me to get around. Probably hoping that I crawl back home but I didn’t. I just drove anyway. Yeah that’s that’s pretty controlling. And I think that’s that’s kind of the theme here that you can see is so much here it really is just about control. Yeah I think that’s a point of religion in the first place but oh yeah yeah I agree. And then you know also you just see the the authoritarian nature of not only Jehovah’s Witnesses but you know even down to the micro level inside your own family. Your dad was just being an authoritarian instead of being a good loving father who you know because he could they could have taken you back in and said OK you know like you don’t want to live this life. I get it you know but how can we find a compromise or anything. But no it’s you know his way or you know their way or the highway. And they even revoke your license you can’t drive on the highway. Yeah just a little jab in the ribs Yeah yeah let’s make it harder for you to have any success in this in this life. So then how did it continue. I mean you know you’re living with this family and and clearly estranged from your own family. How did that play out as you know did you go on to college you know. How did it how did things end up there.

[00:37:48] Well I mean all of a sudden I was in the midst of puberty and I went from being the most reserved kid in high school to the most free overnight. I was like the only kid in high school who moved out of their parents house so you know I had a I had an opportunity to really try to make up for lost time. And I did. I went to parties work where kids thought it was crazy to feed the Jehovah’s Witness kid who mom whose mom used to come in and preached her from fear and drugs and might put my girlfriend’s mom over there were really good parents they stepped in where my Jehovah’s Witness parents let go. And they tried their best to finish raising me. But like you was a rubber band and I was I had a taste and I just wanted to see everything I was kept away from. And she did help me get a full scholarship to college. She just wrote a story about how I survived that story essay she wrote an essay about how I survived high school and I actually got a full ride to a college over it. But they were they were from New York City and we ended up having a rough situation when I was living with them and I ended up staying my senior summer after graduation. I left Amish country and I went up to New York. And I loved it there. You know life is like Johnny 5 and short circuits just needed input. You know add up your lot input.

[00:39:33] I got a job that summer I made friends at Friendly’s Ice Cream and these really genuine friends who didn’t know how I grew up they just I was just a kid from Pennsylvania who showed up and that summer was great and I had to go back to college for that fall right. And that whole ride lasted about three weeks before I screwed it up and I got caught by a security guard drinking beer and I had a girl in my room and they actually called the cops on me. So I fled Pennsylvania went back to New York kind of like how I left my parents in the middle of the night running away. And I never went back to Pennsylvania again. So then how did things shake out with that family. Were they. I’m sure they had some input. You know they had they had helped you get this scholarship and oh yeah they came up to New York and tracked me down in a chair to try to get me to come back to Pennsylvania. They were actually pretty upset but I just made friends and I loved it. New York I wanted so bad. Keep learning about this world that I haven’t done anything else. And by some terrible stroke of luck. When I moved to New York just completely by accident I met this group of Jehovah’s Witness runaways. I mean they were like the lost boys in New York. And is this a new york city or you New York State. This is Long Island. I’m like Queens Nassau County town full Levittown. They were up here and they all left and they were really really into drugs and yeah I start. And I kind of just fresh off the boat here. And I tried everything out.

[00:41:36] It wasn’t just we but like hard stuff like Coke ecstasy mushrooms. I mean they were growing mushrooms. Oh beards everything. So one of my first drug experiences was I had a really bad trip where I decide to sniff ecstasy in each room. This is the first time I did it. I just yeah I said everything I did I did bottles of water. I’d go all out there right. Yeah yeah. It turns out they weren’t just doing that stuff they were selling it. And I mean not just little dime back there were weight. And there was pretty much the worst situation I could get into. And I tried everything. I got my input like I had girlfriends. I partied all the time. Actually I ended up in jail. I crashed my car went through the windshield took a swing and a car ended up overdosing on ecstasy. Really bad. She almost always drew my face. But I did have a little survival instinct just from that short time of being on the streets during high school and I had a taste of homelessness and I just want to make sure that was it me. So I kept a good job no matter how hard I partied. I always made sure I went to my job. I worked for a major insurance company that I purposely took midships so that I could party all night long and I have to wake up early to go to work. But it was a. It’s been raised an obvious country. Give me a little bit of a work ethic. Or is just being terrified of being a fish out of water.

[00:43:09] I just made it was the only thing I had. It was a priority but I ended up in rehab that my job it had paid for. There was a good company and I met this guy in rehab who had put it in my head. I got to move out to California. So I just packed up and moved to California and then ended up being a really bad situation. He was like a he was a really scary person. And as soon as we got here to California I ran out of a motel in the morning and I left everything behind in that high school diploma and worked for all my clothes everything and I moved in with this girl I met at a bar just the night before. There’s a first person I met in California call them up like this crazy thing just happened as a cop asleep on the couch. And I’ve been friends with them for four years. So did you move to California with that guy from New York. Yeah I got out of rehab in and rented a convertible from enterpriser leave the state with it and we drove that thing all 3000 miles to San Diego. Matt When I screw up I screw up big time. You know again this is how you do whenever you do something you do it whole hog. You know the whole Yeah it does. Just wanted to learn everything I could do it. Yeah I mean it was it was satisfying my curiosity I was learning a lot of things.

[00:44:42] But when you’re you know like in your young 20s you’re kind of oblivious to how what damage you’re dealing in and how off the rails you really are. You think you’re invincible. Yeah. So I looked down at him with this girl. Yeah yeah. Her roommate ended up being my best friend. We dated for a while. It didn’t work out. I dated a lot of different girls and then they were a really good influence so they came from affluent families. They were intelligent they graduated college and they said they were a good influence on me. I slowly got on my feet. I got away from the Jehovah’s Witness kids I’ve met in New York and kind of built a new group of friends here and and built them a little smarter this time around and had good influences around. I slowly got on my feet. So then as you’re you’re getting on your feet. What does that look like. Did you know you find gainful employment did you go back to school. No I didn’t go back to school. I had I always I was on the court. To build community committee where we built kingdom halls. I really love construction. I like to work with my hands so for 15 years now I’ve been doing construction I was good at so I had a pretty good job doing construction electrical work. And I eventually met my wife when I was about 26 I met a flight attendant from Puerto Rico. We got married. Which was great. I got more input. I got to travel the world. She spoke six languages.

[00:46:51] She’s from Puerto Rico and got to travel the world get free drinks on the way in first class as a nonrevenue airline spouse. We’ve got to see Japan. Dublin went back to New York pretty much every weekend. But about a year or two into marriage we started thinking about kids and my 10 year high school reunion was coming up and I hadn’t seen my parents really in 12 13 years. And my dad was he was scary. He was an intimidating big guy when I left home and he said he enforced our pretty aggressively. But my parents actually now that I was married they figured I guess I was a little less scary so they invited my wife and I to stay with them from my high school reunion where I saw my dad at the airport is probably one of the most impactful things that I’ve ever seen today. He was completely unrecognizable to me. He was scary to my left and when I saw him again he was old and gray and walking with a limp I mean we didn’t we didn’t even really recognize each other. And like I hid there was like crying the whole way out of the car. My wife was curious about the story. That’s why I went back and it can be pretty horrible if she came from a Spanish culture where they had tight families and she just didn’t understand. So when she met my parents she understood. We woke up one morning I had the stroke of luck one at one of the fellow elders I think died the morning after the reunion.

[00:48:44] So we will go to my mother’s standing over top of us like scream and you know you carry you know you’re going to die you’re gonna miss out in paradise. And my wife left me pretty much only got home she realized this isn’t a good guy to have a family with. She realized I was serious. We got divorced that kind of sucks. I guess I didn’t see that coming. It’s alright yeah I have them all right. I mean and I understand the culture that she came from you know being totally different and and what a shock that must have been to wake up to your mom screaming like that. And that’s. Yeah. God is so wild to an outsider. Yeah just seeing it. I guess you figured I was being dramatic or something the whole time just didn’t register to think she knew only Jehovah’s Witnesses or anything like doesn’t matter at all. But what she actually saw that I think that hit home for the wasn’t a good situation to be in. Well she got out of it. So how do you first. I’m sorry. And second how to pick up the pieces of that. I mean how do you you know when you when you’re leaving get home and that happens. How do you. Clearly you just have to go on. But what what did you do next. What were your next steps.

[00:50:32] Well you see I also I also drank a lot because a erm I’d been torn away from my very young age and I always felt this like this kind of emptiness and I’m just pretty much always been scared so I would mask it with drugs and alcohol and I did that I don’t know when my wife left and I jumped in to a rebound situation pretty much even before I was divorced made his horrible decision. I moved out to Dallas for a while and what as a religious girl hit like a divorce situation like that again get into. And that ended up horribly because by then I was pretty much atheist and I developed this bad drinking problem. I was with her for a couple of years and I just realized I’m unhappy. And I was jumping from relationship to relationship. And I was expecting these girls to replace my entire family. And it’s not fair to them now. I put a lot of them on their shoulders and when I moved back out to San Diego I moved back with absolutely nothing. The relationship in Texas went horrible she took my truck. I came back with a backpack. I was thirty one I think by that time and I had absolutely nothing. I stayed on friends couches. I bought a boat and I lived in the Pacific. I’m on this boat. It’s pretty cool in San Diego. You could live for like MS a very expensive place but you can live on a boat for about five dollars a month. It includes your electricity hookup and your water. Add up I revisited something I used to do as a kid. I like to write. I love I’d write these little stories and pretend like I was somewhere else. Growing up in a different family and I’d make my old little books you know. And I’d read them and pretend I wasn’t this kid. So I just knew that I was I had a drinking problem.

[00:52:51] And for somebody who has curiosity and likes to try different things from me to do something repeatedly every day it makes no sense. So I pretty much realize this and almost overnight I stopped drinking. I was with everything bad that had gone wrong. I still ended up in a situation where I woke up every morning on the Pacific and looked out my front windshield and saw sailboats go on by and the military ships coming in and out past Cordaro island. I felt like I was still I didn’t have anything materially but I had gotten everything I wanted when I was when I was a a Jehovah’s Witness that I dreamed about you know I’ve been through all these circumstances I learned firsthand why not to do them. I mean when I heard all the people who had been through this and been through like hard situations where things just happened bam bam one after another is to right cause I floated on that bow and I wrote I just wrote down everything and happened and chronologically just went through it. And then when you have that as like one piece that you can look back on I was able to kind of put together the pieces and figure out you know the patterns I was making mistakes in. And yeah I was able to make some changes. Yeah Sunny. Yeah. It’s funny that you mention the patterns because I’ve just been sitting here as you’ve been talking listening. Last night my wife and I went to see Citizen Kane the old movie. Really. Yeah. We went to see it with some friends at a local theater.

[00:54:45] They were playing some old movies and Jimmy Wales Yeah yeah. Orson Welles yeah. Orson Welles Yeah yeah. And it was it was you know when when I left that movie I was like you know you could see this pattern of this kid that you know his his mom pretty much doesn’t seem to care about him a lot his mom and his dad and they just kind of send them off and he spends his entire life chasing love. His entire life trying to to force everyone else to love him the way he feels he needs to be loved to you know make up for the injury he had as a kid. And we as human beings tend to repeat certain patterns. There are things that happen to us when we were young and then we tend to go through life trying to fix those injuries from when we were kids. I mean I know that I’ve noticed that in myself and I did you know thisJ.W. life I told my whole story and I’ve noticed things in there about myself and I’m still noticing things and I was just sitting here you know after watching that movie last night I’m just sitting here listening to your story and saying how you know you had to run you know just pack up and run to leave a bad situation with your parents and just how you know over and over again you know you you get put in situations where you have to pack up and run. You know it’s it’s it’s it’s amazing how we play out these things in our lives. Yeah I actually ended up doing it. I mean I kind of paraphrased this but I counted up.

[00:56:27] I actually ended up packing up and running thirty eight times in five states. Wow. Yeah isn’t it. You know and it’s not it’s not something to look at a person and be like that’s not something to point out where a person is wrong or something. It’s just it’s it’s fascinating how we as humans internalize this stuff and we get hurt in some way and then it just manifests itself and we don’t even know we’re doing it. We are given these roles when we’re young sometimes and we will play them out. And that’s for everybody. And I think that what you said was so so good about you know sitting down and you know kind of writing out your life and I mean it helps from a processing perspective just to get it out of your head and then you get to see this whole picture and be like oh yeah you know this is that thing. Yeah oh yeah yeah. It’s we humans are amazing creatures. Yeah yeah it really is. I’m glad that you got to do that for yourself because I’m sure that it has helped to you can’t heal what you don’t see. All right. Right. Going through some of that now though. We all have you know yeah. I mean you know I’m saying that I don’t. I struggle to as a witness. I knew everybody and a lot of people knew me and I had like all these. I’ve always struggled with the concept of what is a friend. And so like I knew all these people but I never had any. There was no intimacy there.

[00:58:14] There was no real relationship. We just we knew each other and it was around common thing. You know being the religion and right now that I’m out I’m finding you know like I know all these people now you know and I have friends that do different things with or whatever and that’s great. But I find that you know a lot of them are honestly couple friends it’s things that my wife and I go do things with people but I’m kind of terrified of putting myself out there and being vulnerable and trying to have like a one on one friendship with somebody because I’ve just never never been taught how to do that or how to get close to people and things like that it’s not. You didn’t get close to anybody as a witness. They were probably going to be disfellowshipped or leave. You know in the distant future and then you would never be able to see them again. So why have a relationship with them. Right. And so you know we all have these patterns that we play out and you know these places where we have to we have this damage from the religion or from our families of origin in the religion because it all plays hand in hand and we all have to try to try to look at ourselves and think OK well you know this is a it’s not like if we weren’t born into Jehovah’s Witnesses we would somehow have these magical laws where everything was healthy but we do have special things that maybe we have to deal with. Right.

[00:59:48] Well we always would have been exposed to the to the real world that you have to live and work in. Altium Yeah. So many times you know people have a hard time making friendships once they leave. Yeah yeah it is. It is. It’s just hard to get close to people or you know like as a as a young witness. I’m here I’m spill my guts. Yeah. As a young witness you can’t get close to anybody like in school or anything like that because you’re not allowed to be friends with them. And then at the Kingdom Hall you’re not allowed to really be yourself because you’re having to put on this appearance that you’re the perfect witness and that you know you don’t like this song or that movie or whatever you say you can’t be yourself anymore. Right. And so you know then when you leave first you kind of have to find yourself and figure out who you even are. And then it’s terrifying to show that to other people like Will you accept me if I show you that I disagree with died or you know I like this other thing or whatever because you spend so long trying to be who everybody else wants you to be so that you can fit in in any you know somewhere whether that be inside the witnesses or are like you said outside the witnesses sometimes people leave and they think they have to be you know like that pack of ex witnesses that you you ran into who were so heavily involved in all these bad things that are kind of this self-fulfilling prophecy that the organization gave us which was that if you leave you’re going to be this drug dealing murdering raping horrible person.

[01:01:33] Ed so you leave and you’re like well I guess I got a lot of deals from drugs and rape somebody at my yesterday so that I can fit in and out here. Yeah yeah yeah. You know this taught you that you would just be the worst of the worst. So yeah you know we all have these we all have so much damage we carry with us from from that time in our lives and we have to try to figure out either do we like that part of us you know for you you know maybe you love being kind of more transient and being able to move around or maybe you really want to be stable more stable in a certain place you know. And so that’s what you find. You know we all have to kind of find you know do we want to be that adventurer or do we want to settle down somewhere or you know what do we want our lives to look like. And it’s a battle that we all have to fight. Unfortunately at a much older age than other people because you know we grew up the way we did. Right. Well if you left you know the Jehovah’s Witnesses when you were single. The first thing you find is your penis which is going to lead you directly into trouble. Pretty much let on the Lost Boys Anjos witness. And you Arctus that’s what led us in trouble. All of us and we did not have practical practical information to approach the world with. And they expect us to fail. Yeah they don’t give you the tools to survive.

[01:03:07] And then they call it prophecy. You know when you win you fail is complete hypocrisy. So let’s take that let’s let’s take that for instance that you just gave. How you leave and find your penis. You know I was just thinking you know the other day I was reading a thread on this forum and they were talking about you know like did the organization screw you up sexually and they were talking about how even in even in marriages even even inside the organization you’re taught that you know your genitalia whichever variety you have is evil and off limits and bad. And you know while you’re dating this brother or sister in the congregation like you can date them. But of course only with chaperones and don’t even think sexual thoughts. And then as soon as you get married boom like you were expected to be the sexual creature. You know you can’t just stick with it right you can’t just turn things a lot and often people know that’s just systematically destroying relationships. I feel bad for a lot of Jehovah’s Witness couples that that put on a smile pretend everything’s great and you know it’s not. I’ve been through this. I mean I’ve had like 30 some relationships I’ve tried to make work like I’m not just talking one night stands I’ve tried. And I realize I have so much to learn practical information that I have to figure out. I have a failed marriage. Yeah they really screwed up. I actually have a daughter right.

[01:04:59] I was in the middle of this you know trying to I don’t even know my daughter over this whole mess I was as soon as I left. By penis led me directly into trouble. Yeah. Now 34 I’m where I should be when I was 24. I’m trying to clean it up. Yeah yeah. You know let’s let’s let’s take people and let’s let’s repress all of their natural not just you know sexuality but just their abilities their thoughts their feelings let’s repress everything in them and then expect them somehow to be healthy. You can’t do that. Right. And so you know I think oh good lord if I found myself single some day married since I was 21 years old I’d have no I have no clue. I don’t know what the rules are in the wide world around us. I don’t know. You know just dealing with people with different histories and everything. You know it would be so hard. And I can I feel for you know people who leave and you know have to figure all that out on their own because it’s it’s it’s a very hard thing to do to navigate you know the world is hard enough to navigate as is. Throw in a culture that makes you know decades behind other people and a lot of ways and try to figure this stuff out. It’s just so unfair. But I’m glad that you know I’m sorry.

[01:06:34] You know you two have had to go through you know pain in these different areas but I’m glad that you know you’re you’re mature enough to look at this stuff and to be able to see it now you know for what it was and to try to you know kind of you know grow and work toward a better life for yourself. As a Korean have it you know hard enough just leaving the Jehovah’s Witness religion we also grew up on the cusp of one of the biggest things if not the biggest thing to ever hit the human race. The invention of the Internet. Now dating is turned upside down. We’re learning to navigate this new timeline of the human race. Is a star it’s a hard time. Yeah you on a call. Yes absolutely. Absolutely. So then you know we kind of know why you left. You know the Kalt. But I’ll let you know. Do you want to do you want to say why you left or you know was there more to it than just you know that period when you were that age. You know why would you say that you left now. What helped you to wake up to what it really was. I was following an instinct and I’m glad I did. I still think I have pretty good instincts. I mean I got a lot of trouble but I learned my lessons. The hard way and I’m I’m still glad I did. I mean I learned a hell of a lot. But back then it was science and girls. That’s why I pretty much left. Were my favorite subjects of study. The more I studied the truth the more I took issue with it. And I really find it hilarious that they name their religion. The truth is like if you start a call we should name it. The ultimate truth no Baxley’s. Yeah.

[01:08:42] It’s so insidious just naming it that it shows you know that there is an agenda just in the name is juvenile. Yeah yeah. Well I love other people and I began to look for ways as I was studying as now baptized Jehovah’s Witness. I was starting to look for ways to prove the child was witness witnesses wrong instead of always bending every bit of information that comes in to prove it right. And I was surprised at how easy it was to punch holes in an almost 20 years since then I’ve I’ve educated myself very heavily in science cosmology physics biology geology. I love everything that I can learn. And the more I learn about that the more it just takes me away from that religion and the rationale that religion. They are. I think there’s a definite reason why they they keep you from secular education. Yeah I I just it seems so clear to me. You personally that that the Bible and the religion Bible and religion are totally manmade fabrications. I don’t see any evidence to support it more. And I’m glad that I left. I’d like to say that no one don’t narc. There wasn’t a global flood 4000 years ago are eight point seven million species didn’t come from two of every animal that survived on a wooden boat. The population didn’t come from one incestuous family and Sanders is a real and a man’s a grammatically incorrect way to say a man. It just sounds like a story to me. You know it just sounds like a manmade story.

[01:10:33] I can’t believe that I was starting to figure it out it at like 15 and my parents are still in their 70s now. And do they still believe in Noah’s Ark. Oh yeah yeah. They still take all that literally. How can a grown adult believe that and come to live. Well I live in southern Indiana Kentucky just across the river and go to Kentucky and I think that’s where the that’s where the Ark Encounter is. Oh Ken Ham yeah yeah yeah that’s all that’s just yeah in the state across the river. Yeah. You know I mean it’s you know I think if you’re if you’re taught that from birth and you’re you know a bible literalists then you know you you have the faith to allow those things to be you know faith isn’t something that I can just have anymore. I live more of an evidence based life. But yeah I think that’s that’s how how people get around it. And I think that there are people who clearly you know need it on some level emotionally and maybe they don’t need you know the ark specifically but you know like you said about your dad. He I think it was your dad. I don’t I don’t want somebody in your family you know had that PTSD. And my grandfather your grandfather. There you go. And I think you know things get introduced because you know in doing this podcast so far I’ve talked to a lot of people who you know when you start getting into their stories it seems like you know the nexus of somebody joining the witnesses in the first place is some sort of trauma right. And then they are looking for certainty and they find something that will provide them that certainty.

[01:12:40] It may not be necessarily evidence but evidence based certainty sometimes doesn’t give people what they need or what they want and they just don’t know how to work through their stuff and then they give birth to people who are born into this and man when you’re taught it from the time you’re a kid it’s it’s really tough to work your way through. Yeah yeah. I mean now to me. Well it’s pretty much the fact that word faith means to believe something without any evidence of it. You know now I’m 34 and I’ve had a hell of a lot of education because I went out and saw it. I have a lot of street education and I I did make a lot of friends a I know a lot of people have a hard time with that and I know why. I still am not very confident myself but I have to do it. So basically I’m 34 and I’m more educated than my parents will ever be. And I just have a hard time. Like everywhere else go. Well you know I would say that you know you are the type of person that has this curiosity. And when I’m listening to you it makes me think of the people who you’re more like an adventurer. You’re a person who has that spirit in them where you have this thirst for knowledge you have this thirst to it. You’re an explorer. There you go you’re an explorer. And I don’t. Not everybody is an explorer. You know naturally not everybody is kind of naturally wired that way.

[01:14:31] And for some people it’s you know find a place and live there your whole life and never change much for other people it’s you know you got to go. There had to be somebody who went and explored things and were those you know pioneers back in the day and and not witness pioneers. I mean real pioneers. Yeah I actually did something. Yeah I guess that was my point. My foundation I feel it is built on on concrete now. It was made much when I left the Joves witnesses. But I’m always since a little kid. That’s why I went into construction for a while. I’d like to know how things work and I want to know actually how it works not how you think it works. I want to see it work and that’s how applied life and how we look at the universe. And I think jobs what is there and pretty much like every other religion they’re just trying to answer questions that probably don’t have an answer and they feel it gives them a false sense of pride that they know everything that’s happening in the universe. They have all the answers and it just I figured out at 15 that this is bullshit. Yeah if it’s difficult to take the perspective of others that try to figure out you know why they why they are where they are sometimes. Now let’s not think why my parents are in it. So do Evers. So I was going to ask you you know so it sounds like are you officially out. Are you like this you know like or you. Are you still technically a witness. Are you disfellowshipped.

[01:16:30] They’re just kind of wondering you know. From the perspective of like you know is there a narrative out there as to where why you left. You know is there a file on me. Yeah yeah yeah. Do people. Why would people think that you left. Do you ever go back and see any of those people. Are they still friendly to you. Or do they kind of see you a certain way. I mean I was baptized at 12. And as far as I know I still am. We had an elders meeting when they realized that for a period of time that this all happened very quickly. But I had stopped wanting to get out of the car or go knock on doors and cause that stirred up hours as they forced me to go in service work. I wouldn’t get out the car so I had an elders meeting and I basically decided you know how things were going to go. And they sat me down they tried to talk me out of it and trying to reason with the Bible. And even then the Bible was when I had the issue with the entire book so and the others me and they were trying to read scriptures to me and like what that book is when I have a problem with that and I don’t recognize your authority. And I did pretty much just walked out and they had this like hilarious stunned look on their face and I didn’t resign. I don’t think I was disfellowshipped I never sent a formal letter like Michael Jackson did to disassociate myself from the neighborhood book club.

[01:18:02] I just kind of thought this was all made up and like a book club and just walked away. Yeah. A I don’t know if they’d just fellowship me or an office. I don’t really have any communication with anybody. I grew up with law. Does that include you or your family. Do you have any communication with them anymore or is that just kind of after that last incident. Is that kind of just the end of it. Okay that happened probably well for now there have been about six years ago. I probably talked to them. I talked my down on the phone once and my mom said probably in six years for text messages. So yeah I don’t think they even know what I do for a living. No. Yeah sorry. I just I don’t know. I don’t really care. It’s to me it is like the Boy Scouts or something. Now doesn’t doesn’t apply anymore. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. You’ve grown beyond that. Yeah. Is there anything that you would like people that have never been witnesses to know about it that you think they might not know about my departure or just about Jehovah’s Witnesses in general I mean they they tell you not to make worldly friends they came up with this word worldly and they steering away from science for a reason. And that is because it pokes holes in what they want you to believe. They want to keep this pact together. And anybody who started I would say feed that you know learn things for yourself go through experiences. And it’s good to have a support group.

[01:20:12] I was kind of unfortunate when I left and immediately found other Jehovah’s Witnesses to be friends with. You know I kind of thought I didn’t become atheist. It took a long time. A lot of research to come to that conclusion. So I thought maybe Jehovah led me into a group of other jobs as well as kids. And it was one of the worst things that happened to me because we’re all deficient in the same areas. We all suffer the same thing. So what you need to do is if you’re looking to live is to meet people who have no idea what the Jehovah’s Witnesses are because they’re going to be strong in the areas that you need to learn about. And you know it’s hard to make friends. What you have to be if you don’t have a family anymore you need to make one. I have a huge family now. I don’t have any blood family but I have a family that spans the United States that someone has always been there and it helped me when I fell down the aisle. I live in a house now and I’m okay. But it was other people that helped me get there. You know when you when you’re thinking about leaving the Jehovah’s Witnesses people are scared to leave the support group that they have there. But you have the potential to make a much bigger one. What a much more rounded group of people. Is that the end of the world. You just have to go out n generally people are good. Of course there’s bad people out there who are going to learn that too to avoid that.

[01:21:52] But usually the red flags come up pretty quick and you want to avoid those people that make friends that are that are strong good people and you know don’t be a mooch but they’re just tell them your story has pretty much to this day if I is they’ll tell people how I grew up. They’re shocked by it and they’re interested in and they want to talk to you and figure out why this is a thing that happens. I 100 percent agree. And I think that that is a very important point about telling your story and not just because I had to pay Castro I help people. But yeah I mean first of all that’s being vulnerable and allowing yourself to be vulnerable to others which people respect. Second of all you know I think we all are taught we’re all told as witnesses not to share our story we’re told to keep quiet about it all. That if you’re going to walk away at least keep your mouth shut. And that’s another thing that they tell us that’s a self-fulfilling prophecy because they know if we go out into this world and we don’t tell anybody our stories then it’s going to be easier for the witnesses to keep the reputation that they want instead of what is actually true. And then it’s also going to be more difficult for you to actually connect to anybody because I mean I tell people my story I mean you don’t want to just say you know there’s a time and place for it.

[01:23:25] You don’t want to overwhelm people or Oh or or take over things but if you bring up the subject and people are interested then tell them because they want to know and you know it’s a way for people to get to know each other. Stories have been an important part of human history since day you know for a long time. So right. I mean anyone raised Jehovah’s Witness does have good quality. I think that’s the whole point of religion in the first place. It’s a vessel to understand morality which are generally good people so there’s no reason why you can’t go out and make friends. But yeah I think it’s funny that you said you know they tell people to keep their mouth shut when they leave. Isn’t that something a rapist would say. Oh yeah absolutely. Or someone who is molesting kids or whatever. Yes. Yeah. They tell you keep your mouth shut don’t tell anybody. I mean it’s so abusive. So what was that as human pack animals as human beings you know we need to go out and make friendships and yeah we all need to find our tribe somewhere right. So where are you now in your journey. Well I you know it took me 20 years to recover from from this upbringing. And then the breaking of the rubber band. I mean I really I really made a mess of my entire 20s and I’m finally say I’m 34 I feel like I’m 24. Now back to being single but I know I finally have it I’m okay. I have a place to live a job.

[01:25:12] It is really hard to sit down and write out everything that happened that that’s really when everything came together for me and I know I was where and I don’t really notice I was that bad of an alcoholic and drug abuser until I wrote it down it and then oh man I really got to stop that. When he had the right motivation. I was able to do it pretty much overnight. Yeah. And especially the motivation that they expect me to fail. So now I have this motivation it’s like a fire on my ass that then till now I’ve basically accepted that they want me to fail. And it almost killed me like I pretty much tried to kill myself in my 20s slowly. You have this like guilt that lives in the back you that you feel bad for even exploring your own life. They kind of build this prison in your own mind that you live in and because it follows you around in Nowheresville educated by I’m trying to approach life with this information and I really feel like I’m just starting now. I look forward to the rest of it. That’s awesome. Me Now you have the chance to make it what you want instead of what you know they wanted it to be for you like your dad said you know when he was yanking you out of that girl’s house you know this isn’t the life I want for my son. Well you know what Dad. It’s not your life right. You don’t get to decide how other people live and who they are. So I’m glad that you’re getting the chance now to decide that for yourself. Is there anything that you’ve learned that you know specifically has really impacted your life for the better.

[01:27:14] I mean you know beyond maybe science or whatever but is there anything that you’ve learned about yourself or just about people or whatever that that has really made your life better. Yeah just from the social aspect of of human beings n being able to do is see my 20s as as a whole what I’m really concerned with. Now when I left the Jehovah’s Witnesses I was terrified of even talking about it. It was like almost seeing a spider for a while. I don’t want to even think about it. And I think that’s why I did so many drugs and things in my 20s and I think it’s important. I’ve actually bumped into some Jehovah’s witnesses that are in their 20s now and have decided to leave like months ago. So I feel like I’ll get this opportunity to kind of help them to not make the mistakes I did. I know a lot of people who have just like yourself sprang just just went crazy as soon as they left and I think they’re what you’re doing is a good thing. You know we’re a support group because basically our parents had stopped raising us. And we need somebody there to help steer us through this world. You know I’m just on that journey now trying to help other people and not do the things I did because it ended up really bad for me. So I went to jail like I overdosed and it took me about ten years after that overdose to really be able to remember to retain any memories. Do to form any new memories and I don’t want that to happen to other people.

[01:29:20] And it’s funny you know witnesses would say Well yeah cause she went to jail and jail and ended up on drugs. I mean look at you you’re in the world now. You’re right. It’s not because of the world it’s because of them. Exactly it is not. That is not the world or my experience in the world that put me in jail or made me overdose. It’s my experience with Vemma that did it. They set me up this way. They set me up to fail as soon as I left. I had no tools. Yeah. So well you know I know that you know you’ve talked a lot about you know some of the mistakes you’ve made and things like that which I think is awesome because you know it helps others to maybe avoid some of the other similar mistakes. But what do you what do you enjoy. You know paint a picture for me what do you enjoy about your new life. You know as you see it now. What are you what are you looking for in your new life. What are your plans. What are you up to now. What’s good man. Well like I said I’ve kind of become this pillar of strength that these young people have just come out. It was totally inadvertent. But like I said I like to help people like to work on boats. I still like to see how things work. And I like to write. I just love how much there is to know me. Variety is the spice of life. It can’t be overstated. But you also have to approach variety with moderation.

[01:30:53] You can’t go crazy on any one thing or it’s going to hurt you. Variety is everywhere in the universe. It’s a keener balance. You have to take a variety of classes in college for a reason you know to get a degree in one field. You have to eat a balanced diet. Finding and experiencing that variety is the fun in life. You know like Mark Twain’s travels fail all bigotry. So it’s failed ignorance. Learn everything you can. I’m a jack of so many trades and the pursuit of knowledge. It’s the whole point of life and the key to doing that safely is moderation which I didn’t know in my 20s. What I learned the hard way. Well that’s cool. Do you have any anything that you’re anything specifically that you’re wanting to do. Coming up having gone for like 17 years or something but I’m in a new place in life. Or you know I’m planning on trying to approach people and not be so scared of talking about it like seeing a spider. So I plan on kind of going down a path or more in helping where I can help kids like me who didn’t have anything to look forward to when they left. You know I was raised preaching to other people. I just the subject has changed. That’s all. I like that.

[01:32:32] I mean there are there are real serious issues that we do need to work out and I think serious things that that could use a little preaching that people need to take seriously like tangible things like our our planet where we’re destroying and that there’s just a lot of issues that need to be dealt with instead of dealing with fanatical religion that affects everyone’s home. We share this. So I agree and it’s the difference between you know Jehovah’s Witnesses would tell you that that essentially there is no hope for this planet other than you know what God is going to bring. And you know through they have absolved themselves essentially of much responsibility today because they can just say well you know God’s got it I don’t have to worry about any of this stuff. I don’t have to help anywhere participate in anything or you know do anything that actually you know a lot of them unfortunately then even can even get to the point where they just don’t they just to do things that harm the earth because they just don’t care. But yeah I mean Jehovah’s Witnesses they’re just pretty much one and I think there’s like 33000 plus different variations of Christianity alone. I mean there just one. And we’ve spent all this time shedding on our home planet while we look to the next life you know like our time here is temporary. That’s a horrible way to look at it because generation after generation is coming along you know and meanwhile we have this thing religion that helped us understand our morality. But it I don’t think it’s doing us any good anymore. We know why we need morality and we’ve we’ve banned contraceptives in different religions and now we’re overpopulated. We’ve crossed the tutelary threshold. And we’re looking at serious problems if we don’t do something fast for our planet. I think that’s the things we need to worry about.

[01:35:02] I agree I agree wholeheartedly and I think it’s great that you know now that you’re out you can you can focus on those things you can focus on you know living your own life helping other people and doing things that actually matter today instead of pushing it all off into the future and I think that’s great. Thanks. Just first proof that it rips families apart and life is too short. Enough already not to have a fair start at it. I just just want that to end. I agree. Well is there anything that. Is there anything that I didn’t ask you that you wanted to say or anything. Well as far as as far as my parents and everything you know I’m pretty critical of them. But at this rate they’re in there in their 70s and even though I am critical of the way they they they raise me. It was what they were taught to do. And I don’t really harbor any ill will against them I do against their religion. You know I’ve actually you know wrote this book about growing up and why it’s so important to leave and it’s going to be for sale on Amazon like next week and I don’t even want them to know about it. I don’t want to hear this podcast haha. At this point they’re in their 70s and if they if they did realize they would look back on an entire life of missed opportunities and I think that they don’t have much time left and I see that you know as I don’t want to be like that. No I understand.

[01:36:46] It’s like if you wake up somebody that is in you know that is in advanced age. Then you wake them up to the realities of what their life has been and they look back on a wasted life will destroy them. Yeah it easily could. Especially because it is their whole social circle. It’s somebody who has their identity it’s a lot of times they’ve you know I think about my mom you know my dad died you know at this point you know the resurrection hope. I’m sure she’s holding on to that. And you know I don’t I don’t want to take that away from somebody. You know a lot of times you know witnesses this is like to vilify us you know quote apostates or whatever they want to call us as people who are just out to ruin their fun or whatever. But the reality is that if you talk to most of us you know I don’t want to take somebodies faith away from them. I don’t want you to put your faith on me. You know I’m not here to take your faith away. If you ask me questions then I should be able to answer them without you freaking out because you ask the question or otherwise don’t ask and that’s fine. We don’t have to discuss the subject of spirituality the Bible any of that we can. There are so many other things in life to discuss. But you know most of us we don’t want to destroy other people’s lives and their faiths and things like that. You know we’re not trying to hurt anybody they are doing the same thing that we do.

[01:38:34] We thought we were doing when we were Jehovah’s Witnesses and we want to help people yeah want to help them see. Yeah. And only now we actually are helping people. Right. You know like I think about you know how many people have reached out since I started my podcast last year and have said you know that I was able to help them in some way. When I was a witness I knocked on doors I mean I pioneered at that point I knocked on doors for 90 hours a month. Yeah and I never helped a person with anything. No company yeah yeah yeah I guess a bought old ladies in houses who you know would invite you in. That was that was it. We never really truly made anybody’s life better and now I hear from people who have been able to help in some way. I thank Jason for reaching out and for being willing to tell his story if you’d like to hear more. Like I said he’s written a book entitled “worldly – how not to escape a cult”. So again that’s “Worldly – How not to escape a cult”. The book was just released on Amazon as a paperback or even as a Kindle version. Jason has a heart to help and he wants to help others know kind of keep them from making some of the same mistakes that he made. You know we’re given so few tools to deal with reality when we grow up in the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

[01:40:09] And hopefully his book can help some not to learn some of the lessons the hard way like he did feel free to go to shunnedpodcast.com and leave a comment for Jason on the episode’s page for his episode. You can follow the show on YouTube my channel called shunnedpodcast. Again that’s one word and you can get my personal videos there is vidcast as well. You can also find us on Instagram and Twitter as shunnedpodcast. And my wife handles those channels for the show. You can also help the show by leaving a review on iTunes. It really means a lot to me. You can also support the show financially at Patreon.com/shunned for as little as a dollar a month. I count on the support there to help me pay for things like the transcripts that I put up on the site to help attract more traffic and listeners those listeners are people that are needing and hopefully finding help as well. And you know this is the way we’re all in this. We can all help in some way. You can hear my story at the high caste called This JW Life if you haven’t already. Our theme music is by fair voyeur who is also a former witness in the song is entitled No hell yet. The next episode’s going to be out at the beginning of September it will feature Sydney and other former J-dub. And she has an interesting story. I actually got to meet her for the first time at an apostafest just over a week ago and while we were there I went ahead and did some many interviews that I was going to add to her episode.

[01:41:41] Well it just so happened that I got so much good concept from those many interviews that I’m going to release them separately as yet another bonus episode. So you can look forward to that. She come out after Sydney’s episode. And I’ve got lots of good things coming up. But for now let’s end this the right way love others do no harm and go be happy.

Kacey Is Shunned By Jehovah’s Witnesses

[00:00:41] Welcome to the shunned podcast where we expose the high control religions that you shunning as a tool to control people. Today’s episode is personal to me. It features somebody that I know that I knew in my own congregation when I was growing up and it shows the damage that can be done through the cult of Jehovah’s Witnesses you’re going to see how the cults and the culture around an in it can really steal a person’s life. Of course you’re also going to get to see how a person can come back from the depths of despair and find happiness in life. Kacey is telling this story even though it could have some ramifications for her personally as she’s taking a stand today. So many people have been hurt by this cold. And lives are ruined or even destroyed at times. And it may be that we all have that point in time where we are we know we have to take a stand for truth. You know I remember being a kid and there was a relative of cases that was out knocking on doors with my mom in field service. I remember my mom coming back to the car and telling us how bold her relative was because something she said at the door she told the woman well ma’am sometimes the truth hurts. And you know we all thought that was so great. Oh you know how witty that she told this lady in response to some objection the lady had to something she had said that you know that sometimes the truth hurts.

[00:02:14] Well you know who would have thought that so many years down the road we would have all found that out to be true. The truth hurts Jehovah’s Witnesses that would listen to this would be agitated by it. And why. Because the truth hurts this podcast and others like it hurt them. Why. Because it’s the truth. And they’d rather hide behind convenient lies having their ears tickled as they used to say and they aren’t concerned with actual truth but rather with the truth. Their religion so let’s hearK.S. story learn about her life and how it was impacted by growing up as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. My name is Kacey. I am 34 years old. I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I am shunned. All right. So then how did you come to be one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the first place. How are you. When I was about 2 or 3 years old my mom started studying with the witnesses. So I don’t really remember anything but going to the Kingdom Hall when being a Jehovah’s Witness have like some spotty memories. I remember riding a tricycle when I was about three years old and my mom and dad telling me that my my dad had bought that for me for my third birthday. But I don’t remember like ever celebrating any holidays or anything. I don’t remember that being a birthday party. I just remember having a go Red Tricycle. I am my man and my and my uncle and their mom my grandmother they had all studied with the witnesses at random times in their lives. I know my mom studied English.

[00:04:00] She was about 14 or 15 she studied and went to meetings for a while but she didn’t really take. You know there was no commitment made there when they were younger. That didn’t come until until my mom started studying when I was about two or three years old. How old do you think she was then when she started studying again for the second time. Probably around my age and in her 30s and so there is a pretty big gap there. Yeah yeah like 15 20 year gap. Yeah it’s kind of amazing how you know once you’re exposed to the religion it kind of seems to stick with you even if you get away from it like that you know she was just the kid she studied but yet you know here you know decades later it is coming back into her life. Yeah and one thing about my mom is she went through some trauma with my brothers and a guy that she had dated. And at the point in her life when the sister knocked on our daughter when I was 2 I really think my mom was just looking for something to cling to and see this was familiar because she had already started it for a while when she was younger. So in her mind I think that like Gyges came full circle because no Jehovah was trying to lead her back or something. I mean I never really ask her a lot about is she. She won’t talk about any of the trauma that she’d variant so that she saw my own personal life per statute perspective I guess. Oh no no no that makes total sense. I think a lot of people are attracted to the religion because it’s a sense of surety.

[00:05:51] It’s a prescribed path that you can take in. And you know you can hand over traumas and things like that to something that you perceive is bigger than you. So I can definitely understand why that would happen. So then you were pretty young and it doesn’t go back many generations. You know just to your grandmother who studied later in life as well as for you what did it mean to you back then. You were a kid growing up in it. Well it was confusing. My life was really confusing. My dad was raised Catholic and very very strictly opposed to my mother’s studying with the witnesses. My dad’s family is the type of family that while they love each other they put most of the focus on their family time around holidays. So you’re talking Christmas Thanksgiving Easter. Those will be like big times for my dad’s family to get together and then they probably quinsy each other for the months in between the holidays. So it was really hard for my dad to accept that my mom was converting to this religion where there were no holidays there were no birthdays. She spent so much time away from home. And he was really oppose like I remember as a child my family dynamic especially around Christmas for the week before Christmas the week of in the week after my parents barely spoke. My dad would just kind of walk past us like we weren’t even there. Jelic he was really really upset about it it caused a lot of arguments in fighting between Hilsey. My mom stood firm because that’s what she was told to do.

[00:07:52] And my dad stood firm because he he was a momma’s boy Matt my dad and his brothers were just raised father mom. They never had their dad so he would have done anything to to keep his mom happy. You know he didn’t want his mom to think badly of him so. So you know and that’s the way he was raised he went to Catholic high schools. So it’s just something that that was I guess probably their one of their biggest arguments and something that tore them apart for many many years when I was a child and other than that. Growing up as a Jehovah’s Witness in school was horrible. Look I hated it. I wanted to be like the other kids. I’ve always been like a little bit of an awkward childhood. I have older brothers. I’ve always been more like I’ve always been to rock music in metal like me my brothers my two older brothers are eight and 12 years older than I am. And so when my mom and dad were at work they would babysit me and it would just be like a party BAM you know we were like a lot the Pantera and Slayer and you know they’re smoking cigarettes out the back door and I see this and I just like my brothers you’re so cool. Her hair oh is like the awkward you know I wasn’t the cheerleader or the ANC. You know I was I was the captain of the safety patrol at my alma mater. I’d rather get a total book worm like I. People didn’t like me so I decided I didn’t like people.

[00:09:38] They all made fun of me because I was a Jehovah’s Witness because of course on those first days of school when I have to go to my teacher and say hey here’s you know here’s this chapter pamphlet on why I can’t salute the flag. And my mom sends letters saying make sure that she goes to the library if there any holiday celebrations or birthday celebrations you have to you know single her out and take her to the library. So that was my life books. Yes. So that’s what I did which is bury myself in books. Makes sense you got to escape. You know. However you can try to find your place. Yeah. So then that’s what it was like at school. What about at home what was your life like at home growing up. You said a little bit about you know being babysat by your your brothers. Now your brothers. Were they witnesses at that time. My older brothers never got baptized into the religion. My they are not my dad’s biological children but you would never know because my dad adopted them like he loves those boys. You know they call him dad. He says those are his sons are but they weren’t. They were older I guess my mom just didn’t enforce it on them the same way she did us because they rebelled a little bit. And while they would go to the meetings they they were never in it. You know what I mean. They were like physically and mentally out from the beginning they just weren’t buying it. They were too old. They were already into their own things.

[00:11:17] And so I just think that my man put more emphasis on me because I was young enough that she could raise me up right in it. You know as my she couldn’t so and then my brothers asked so both of them fell in love and got a girl pregnant at a very young age. My oldest brother I think he had his first daughter when he was 16 hour seven. I think I was four when she was born. And then my second oldest brother when he was 15 and had been seeing a girl who was 21 and got her pregnant. Oh yeah and that was like a huge scandal and you know he wanted to do the right thing. So at age 16 when their child was born a baby even got married right before. My nephew was born but he moved out. You know when he was like 15 and started going to term I can’t remember what the name of the high school is. You work half a day and you go to school half a day. So it’s like a co-op type thing. Yeah. No. He could he could. And they lived together and raised their child. For me my I have a younger brother who he has some mental and physical limitations. He has autism and cerebral palsy and so most of the focus in my house was really put on him. So I was just kind of a I was expected to just do the right thing like I wasn’t allowed to mess up as a kid like it wasn’t acceptable for me to just do things that kids do.

[00:13:10] I kind of had to learn to always be mature and always realize that my little brother comes first. Now as an adult. Of course he comes first because he has. Of course he comes first you know he has a scar here and he uses a lot of a lot of need. Yeah. And it’s now I understand. But as a child I was just starved for like I wanted attention. So I would get really hyper and go out and run around and no I wasn’t always that way. I remember a time where I would just like sit on the floor coloring book all day color for hours. Other than that my my dad was an alcoholic and so he was very abusive. He was very verbally and emotionally abusive. And as I got older I don’t want to say he was physically abusive like he beat me every day. But if he came home and it had enough to drink and that I didn’t do it. There was like a couple dishes left in the sink. I was I was catching one to my backside for sure and my dad is a very big man and I honestly don’t think that in his sober mind he would have ever done anything like that. But it made for a very like tumultuous childhood and kind of walking on eggshells. I never knew if my dad was going to be drunk when he came home or not or what was going to happen. It caused a lot of anxiety and I just remember having a really confusing child as far as know not where I belong.

[00:14:58] Sounds very confusing I mean it on the one hand you have you have the religious divide between Jehovah’s Witnesses and Catholicism and you know the obvious rift that that caused you know around holidays and just different factions of the family and then you’ve got you know you’re your own person and you’re trying to make it. But you know at school you’re you’re ostracized because you’re one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and then you’re your dad. This he’s got his own issues. And I’m sure that made you feel very isolated there even at home. So yeah it would be hard to to feel like you fit in. Did you did you feel like so then what about at the Keenum Hall. Did you feel like you fit in there. How was life. And you know as a child there in the church you know I never had never felt like I. Well most of the girls there were actually growing up in that hall a decent amount of kids that were around my age guys and girls. And so there were plenty of girls for me to go to their house or whatever or spend time late or play with their call my friend. However my dad was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses and most of their guards were there guards were elders. And like I said I was always kind of like a weird cheerleader and aquatinted I didn’t really follow the dress code you know how old it was. It was rough. There were times where I’m the I’m OK.

[00:16:50] So one instance I can remember is that when I was about 12 I had been invited to a summer party for the girls in my congregation and I was so excited because I thought there you know the tide is turning white things are going to change I’m going to have friends I’ll actually have somebody that I can talk to and not not thought they wanted me there. We give them get there. It’s really I’m super nervous because I don’t know how to act in front of other girls. I was raised with boys. And you know as as a Jehovah’s Witness you don’t get to play with other kids so you go to school with you don’t get to play with kids in your neighborhood or I didn’t see them some day but I never got to do those things. The only girls that I had in my wife were my cousins and they were both very tomboyish just like I was. So I didn’t know how to mix with girls who were girly and did their hair and painted their nails. So we go to this summer party and were in the basement of one of the girls grandmothers and so the girl that was hosting this sleepover look set me at some point during the night and says you know the only reason you’re here is because my grandma was going to cancel my summer party if I didn’t invite you. That’s welcoming. Yes. I just wanted like I just pretty much sat in the corner by myself for the rest of the night. Fighting back tears because I didn’t want to let them know that it got to me and I so wanted their acceptance. You know I just wanted to be a part of and am and that hurt you both in their work.

[00:18:49] There were a few other times where they would have sleepovers invite me but then it’s always in the back of my head that the only reason I’m here is because somebody whose mom forced them to invite me. So then they would try it. They should preempt this by saying s I was drawing we had some issues in our house as well. Jehovah’s Witnesses would not say your house is haunted they would just say like you have demons or you brought an item into your house that had a demon has attached you or whatever. We had a really really crazy things that were happening in our house. My dad he got punched like in in the face one night and there was nobody there. He he had a fist. He had physical marks on his body from being attacked. Mike my toys would move all around. I had a teddy ruxpin doll and he would open and close his eyes and move his head in his arms. You know it was really scary. Elder Kivy dolphin Yeah yeah it was a creep. My parents actually took one back to the store and exchange shit for another one because they thought it was just a some sort of malfunction of the toy. Right. And it still happened with the excellence the elders of the congregation even came to our house. Unlike a shepherding girl and we had to throw out everything that we had and start over and paint the walls in like do all this crazy stuff that I didn’t understand why I had a hearing on my voice. I think has made you do that that was their suggestion. Yes.

[00:20:38] And yet that was their suggestion was that you know we get rid of everything because you know my mom went to their stores Nazo a lot. We weren’t rich just you know grown up. So they the only explanation that they had was that someone had either been practicing like witchcraft or demonic spiritualistic ritual isn’t something that that we had bought from this yard sale or thrift store had had been attached by a demon or something. I was I was young when it happened. But I do remember we have had talks about this family night. And you know there’s no there’s no like haunting or evil energy. You either got angels demons away to help us when this really did. Pretty much everything’s on the mend. So if you’re not emitting them the following year you know it’s Sunday best of the Bible you’re here. So I’m Bega. That was their suggestion was that we get rid of all these games that we painted the walls. I mean a lot of things. My dad got rid of every art read he had just a lot of things that they said could be a channel for these demonic whatever. So the girls at the hall they would.

[00:22:06] Two of them their dads were elders and I remember them asking me about this one time when I was at one of their houses they were asking me about the demons in my house and I was just kind of like glad they wanted to talk to me so I’m telling them this crazy stuff that’s happened and then they turn on me they’re like oh well I don’t want to be around you you scare me that those stories are scary and then they went back to their elder father’s who is probably who they got the information from in the virtual to say because they shouldn’t have even known that that information that’s all supposed to be confidential. Exactly. And they tell one little girl told her dad that I was telling them about stories of demons and that I wouldn’t stop talking about it and that I was scaring her. So they made me go home. And like I didn’t bring it up and come here to see what they did. But that’s just like that’s just how the dynamic between me and the other ladies at the Kingdom Hall when I was younger it was not a good you know it wasn’t right Father Yeah I would have much rather hang out with the guys in our congregation because I did get along with them but that is inappropriate. You know you’re not allowed to have male friends unless you’re trying to marry one of them and then you don’t even really get to know each other until after you’ve married this person there’s no courting it’s almost arranged in a way. So I was homeschooled starting in middle school as well. Was that to get you so that made my wife. You there to get you away from like worldly influences at school or something. Yeah just tighter grip on you. Yes. And my parents had also. They had also taken custody of my cousin which is a whole other story but it’s a different chapter and they’re taking custody of my my male cousin and and he was like a brother to me.

[00:24:21] You know we had grown up together and had at her grandmother’s house we were very close to me and my cousins my parents are taking Kersee of him. So he had a really really bad ETG like he was very hyper he couldn’t pay attention to anything. He had really bad learning disabilities and school so my mom maybe she could take a leave from work and home school the both of us. And so that’s what she did. So it worked for me. I can’t on really quickly it did not work so well for my kids. So they let you know they were better off as a person who is a little bit HD myself. Self-learning in that kind of environment without structure could be very difficult. Yes. Yeah. And you know I’m almost a working part time so sometimes she would just give us our assignments and say finish season more go over the answers when you’re down. And so I ended up helping him and teaching him more than my mom did an extent because we were there together all the time. So and I caught on I’m a pretty bright person I’m I’m fairly intelligent and I got good grades anyway so. So it was fine. But you know it it was hard to keep up with my schoolwork and math when my mom had to go back to where her my dad were both working full time. And I’m trying to you know take care of my little brother who has his disabilities.

[00:26:13] And from about the age of 12 until I moved out that was you know my responsibility was to get my brother his medicine because he had to have special medicines certain times of the day or he would have seizures and put him on the bus make sure he got off the bus make sure he had snacks make sure you know he was clean and then in the summertime when he was on summer break he was my responsibility full time at the law to put on a kid. Yeah it is. I don’t remember ever being on time though honestly that I regretted that because I left my brother. And you know I would do anything for him. He is he’s like my kid in a lot of ways. He’s here you know because we were so close growing up and then you know to take care of him the way that I did. I never regretted any of that. I never had any resentments towards him because of that. It just made me grow up so fast that I feel like I missed out on a huge portion of my life. We’re just caught up with me in later years. So it wasn’t. It was not resuming towards him so much as it was towards my parents because they put me in this situation where they said oh you’re mature enough and you’re you’re strong enough and you’re smart enough to handle this. You know we wouldn’t give you the responsibility. We think you could handle it. But as a child at 12 years old it was like I was in the same house every day I felt trapped. You know what do I do. I can’t go anywhere I’m not allowed to sit on my front porch and even talk to the neighbors.

[00:28:12] You know I hear a kid go to the girls at the Keenum hall and have fun with them. I have nowhere to go. They’re very isolated you know they’re isolated. Yes. So then you know I’m just thinking you’re trying to you’re living this life which sounds pretty busy for a 12 year old. And at that same time you know being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses that means that you probably had other things you had to do too. So how did the burden of being one of Jehovah’s Witnesses or privileges they would see it. How did that impact you. You know growing up going to meetings and field service and knocking on doors studying all those things that you had to do. How did that fit into your life. What was your experience with that. Yeah. As a child I was a I was excited at first as as a young child to go out in the field service ministry. And it was fine. I thought you know when I was like them ages four five six I could read at the age of three so that was always a good selling point. My mom was taking me to the doors. I could read really well so have me reading scripture. These people would just be like oh she’s the most adorable little thing you know. I guess these little girls aren’t do great but if literature. So you know we would rehearse those things and I liked it. As I got older know obviously I think a lot of people feel this way even those who are still in the religion.

[00:30:07] They think they kind of you start looking for it to go out and vote 030. You know I became an unbaptized publisher and I started to you know give the little presentations that the sisters are allowed to give on the stage or that they used to be allowed to care. Not sure how that works anymore. I wanted to get baptized. I thought that that would fix everything. And at the age of twelve I was already being shy and to an extent in my congregation because the girls in my heart had said you know that I was too worldly and that now it’s not not like them. So I don’t really have a lot of friends. Anyway I was already isolated and I thought if I get baptized maybe it’ll it’ll make some these expectations easier and people will like me more. You know it’s a way of proving yourself exactly. So I started to study the questions and go over that. And in October of 1996 oddly I was baptized at a special assembly. How were you then. I had just turned 13. Go to 13 in September and I was baptized not so and now of course like I said before I was really good at reading and comprehending so of course some made it sound like I really knew what I was answering those questions. And you know when that’s when the elders talk to you about your commitment I really sounded like I was serious about it. Oh yeah we all did because we all we all knew what we needed to do what we needed to say. You know in order to make that happen. Exactly.

[00:32:15] And you know even if you didn’t know exactly what you needed to say there was somebody that was more than willing to coach you in to it as long as it meant you were assigned in your name on the dotted line. Mike you are by your name because you were baptized witness outright. Yeah. That they weren’t going to let you slide. It is kind of funny. Did they ever turn anyone away because they kind of do sometimes but eventually they always get everybody in. Yeah yeah they do. They do. So I got baptized in here and I started to pray here because I was homeschooled so at one my brother was in school and the bus would come to get him and then a sister from the Keenum Hall would come to pick me up and take me out and service them. So I would go out and service three to four days a week and so it gave me something to do. I wasn’t stuck in the house all day. And so that was it gave me something to do. However I feel like I probably in hindsight in retrospect used that more as like a social hour because I was just so desperate to have somebody to talk to. And so I didn’t really take it serious enough. And there was a brother in the hall at one point at we were at we always would break at McDonald’s and we were at McDonald’s and early in the day it was him his wife another sister and me in the car.

[00:33:53] And I had I was hungry really hungry and I was like What time is it you know could we go to McDonald’s yet. And I had said something a couple times about Hungary. And when we got to McDonnel as this father pulls me aside and says to me if you’re just going out until service of somebody or buy you a meal at McDonald’s you can’t go out with me anymore so don’t ask me or my wife to pick you up for service anymore like it was. It was pretty innocuous just like I mean I’m just I told him just to take me home at that point. And you know mom actually my mom was really upset that he would say that to me and she went to the brothers I don’t know whatever came of it honestly. I had to really put some thought into remembering this much of my childhood because I know some some PTSD. Jack it’s really cool. My memory is just I know I don’t have long memories. They’re very spotty. I remember circumstances like the atmosphere that I was in bed. It’s really hard for me to remember specific things so all the things we talk about then talk about that atmosphere what what was it like what was your feeling. You know just what were you feeling as a as a kid and all this. What was it like for you. I mean I was miserable like like I said my whole life was just one situation after another of me trying to find where I fit in. You’re trying to find my place. So that was a really miserable place to be. And at the time when I was when I had got baptized.

[00:35:43] I was not aware that I was suffering from a disorder that causes me to repressed memories from your childhood trauma. And so all of this is starting to come online at the same time and I’m sorry to have flashbacks of these things that happened to me when I was a child that I didn’t remember before that. So I’m just I’m I’m miserable but I don’t know how to cope I don’t know anything to do except to just keep going out until there is you. A study in my Bible and keep you know I’m at this point I really was legit. I really did want to be a spiritual person. Have you had a reason to want to be you know just like you open this talking about your mom and how she had these traumas and then there’s this religion comes full circle that comes back to her and she sees that as a way to maybe fix her problems. Well here you are as a kid with no tools. I mean what what 12 13 year old kid has the tools to over overcome and cope with all this stuff and then you think you’re going to get baptized and you know Jehovah’s Holy Spirit is going to rain down like a dove upon you and you could fix all your problems. I’m about do you know. Right. Right. Of course. And those are the things that they they tell you you know they tell you this stuff that’s part of the sales pitch to get you to take that step. So you know here you are.

[00:37:18] Now you know the lonely depressed little girl and you’ve got trauma coming back you know in these flashbacks and you had every reason to think that you know just doubling down on whatever you were doing quote spiritually in the organization was going to fix everything and you desperately probably needed that at that time. Yeah. And you know not to mention the Elderts any time that I would go to them or seek counseling. That’s what they told me to do. Surround yourself into that you know you need yet more hours talk to more people tried so Bible study read your Bible mosque and be more embodied in the appropriate ministry support. You know you do things like clean the keyboard to launch an offer to help older sisters at the whole year. You’re selfish and you’re not doing enough. You know so that was my issue. They made me feel like everything that happened to me was my fault you know and that I’m not good enough. So so why not heap that burden on a child that you know you have somebody who is clearly hurting already and then tell them you’re not good enough because you’re not regular in cleaning the Keenum hall or something stupid like that. You know it’s the last thing you needed at that point in your life I’m sure was a culture of an organisation that just beats people down yeah works. And you know some people I think that people well and people like you and I we have we have a resilience about this but also we work Farlane for their business like they wanted us to do. Yes. They can only beat you down for so long.

[00:39:12] And some of us just have to stand up and say I’m not going to take this anymore. And honestly I think my mom got gone. I know you got hurt. People like my mom who life had already beaten her down so far that it’s like that’s what she was used to. So when she came into this cult she was almost like a relief for her like she could breathe again because she had somebody telling her what to do she didn’t have to think for herself anymore. She didn’t have wonder what what was going to happen. She was told that if she were out on Jova and she prayed and she became spiritually fit that everything in her life would just come together and that you know she would that she doesn’t have to worry about those things anymore. Anything that happens in this lifetime doesn’t matter because as long as you’re faithful to Jehovah under every circumstance you’re going to go to paradise. So it doesn’t matter who does it doesn’t matter who abused you it doesn’t matter what happened in your past. Just paraded hopeful about it. Just stay faithful kids in paradise. It’s all going to be race. You know so I mean for her for her. That was enough she didn’t ask questions for me. It wasn’t. It was you know I had questions that couldn’t be answered from a very young age. And I tried to suppress those because of course after I got baptized that I had the obligation of doing what I was supposed to do as a baptized member of Jehovah’s Witnesses and then I had guilt because what the only people actually have in my life or my parents. I don’t have friends.

[00:40:49] I don’t have social activities I don’t have anyone else that I can turn to. My parents are the people that are even. No matter how abusive or how how horrible of an experience I may have had growing up they the only consistency I had. So you know I don’t want to disappoint them. I don’t want that guilt as being the black sheep of the family. But it is what it is now. But at the time you know and then one when I was when I was 13 almost 14 I started having these flashbacks. And I was in my body went into like shock that I was having seizures from from the trauma like I don’t I don’t know what exactly happened my mom took me to a neurologist. He says that you know I was filtering into puberty at the time and sometimes that puberty can cause you your your brain to remember things that you didn’t remember for a child. So it can cause you to lie it unleashes these things like all these warnings. So I started having seizures and I try to slip my mom and dad down one night. Tell them and. No I haven’t told you this before and now but I’m starting to remember things ma’am about your brother about my uncle. You know he he touched me when I was little and I was explaining to her specific instances of times when I was at my grandmother’s house or when I was at my uncle’s house spending the night with my cousins around the age of 4 or five. Where he would one by one come in to the bedroom and take us out.

[00:42:41] And then when one came back he would sometimes it would just be one that night sometimes it would be all of us but one by one. So I’m not gonna get into it like a lot of detail that I did with Obama did tell her specific things that happened and she sends me to my room. Taksin my dad calls me back down and says mind you wrote me when me say this my uncle or was in prison at the time that I’m telling my mom this I’m formalizing his own daughters and his stepdaughter. For a long time I didn’t know why he had gone to prison. Nobody would tell me because I was a kid and I didn’t need to know. They just said he did a bad thing and he had to go pay the consequences for his actions. Right. And these were the same two little girls that he molested were the same two little girls that you were spending the night with. Correct. Yes. Yeah. Got you. And so my mom tells me that she thinks I’m just lying that I just want it in June and that she’s going to take me to the elders. We’re going to talk about this and get some spiritual counseling. Littlefeather before you get to that I don’t mean to interrupt. Do you think you said that your mom had trauma in her past.

[00:44:09] Do you think that her brother could have been part of that trauma and that maybe she was just you know this was a way to she couldn’t accept it herself and she had to distance herself from it by any means possible even if that’s invalidating you. You know that’s a really really good question. I can’t give you a straight yes or no on that because I really don’t know that it’s very proper. I do know that my mother’s a child endured abuse. I’m not sure who it was. Family members I know but I’m always under the impression that it was older members of the family that they had been left with as children. And you know and that’s how the cycle gets past them. Exactly. And I just wondered if you are being spent that most of what my mom endured was like my older brothers were abused by a woman that my mom was a man that my mom was dating. And I don’t know the extent of that abuse either. However I do know that it really hurt my mom because she was just trying to do what was right. She was working two jobs and she had left my brothers with this man who she trusted who she loved she thought would not hurt her older children and come to find out he did hurt my brothers badly. And so my mom I don’t think she’s ever forgiven herself for that. So for me to come to her and say hey this happened I think she was just so it probably brought back trauma from her as well as how helpless she felt as a mother to my brothers when that happened. So for her to have to feel that helplessness again I feel like she failed her child. Stop think she could accept it. Like yeah I know that makes sense. Yeah.

[00:46:05] It didn’t make sense when I was a kid. Oh god no. But I was lying or just be told that I just wanted attention. Oh and you know we ask your uncle and he said he never did that. So right. Right. I mean he wouldn’t lie about oh this is what I was told. Right. Pretty much Kirby. You know I was so angry because he said it didn’t happen. And the elders you know the elders make me go through every curse detail of what happened. Like my mom couldn’t tell him I had to for them to just tell me that OK my cousins were there when it happened. But since they weren’t in the room with us he took us away. So since they weren’t in the room with us they didn’t see it with their own eyes. Happened to me. You know that’s not good enough. Really. Yeah. They weren’t witnesses. They were living in Pekin at dinner with their mother. So at this point John they were living with their mom and they weren’t baptized witnesses so they weren’t credible anyway you know. Right. They were Webley and so the brothers took me on reproofs they place you on reproof. Yes they did were lying for fun I guess because I was making this big story up you know. And it was private reproofs at the time which later turned it into public reports because I had been writing letters back and forth to a boy from the Georgetown congregation and our letters were a little more racy than they should happen. So then it was public proof shortly thereafter.

[00:47:48] So there’s a snowball just builds and rolls downhill and they just gets bigger and bigger. You know it’s from one right when am I led to the deaths no matter where I turn. I’m being rejected I’m being told that I’m not a good kid I’m being told that I’m not a good Jehovah’s Witness. I’m being told that I’m a liar that I want attention that I’m yes. That there’s something wrong with me. You know that there’s something wrong with me that what is happening to me is my fault. It has I. I’ve done something wrong. You either deserve the way I’ve been treated or or because I’m lying you know about it. That’s why that’s why I have all of this emotional pain and this and this is why I can’t get over this hump and be more spiritual because I’m not being truthful and then I’m not you know those kind Zoet everything is my OK and it be that you’re very hurt person it can’t be that there can’t be any modicum of compassion it has to be. You’re a piece of shit and you know you did it to yourself you know. Yeah. It’s so awful. It is. It is awful. And it throws me into a like a victim stance. You know what I mean from that point on from my only point. But even today still I have issues with like playing the victim. Does that make sense. Oh ha. Like I I I don’t even mean to.

[00:49:30] I don’t even realize I’m doing it sometimes if it hadn’t been for therapy and for that other progress that it has been it helped me heal from this. And so I don’t even know I’m doing it. It’s something you mean you mean you mean to tell me the programs outside of Jehovah’s Witnesses have helped you but Jehovah’s Witnesses didn’t you know if that is that dynamic Jehovah’s Witnesses act like their their religion or the Bible or whatever will cure all your ills. But in that funny how you know for most of us that managed to get out it’s the fact that we went to quote worldly you know through programs or to therapists or whatever. It’s those people that actually helped us. It’s not the truth the religion or you know the Bible itself even necessarily it’s these outside people that show basic human compassion and humanity that help us to get through these traumas and to get better. It’s not usually a byproduct of escaping into a religion. This whole our whole life this religion this these these principles of the Bible and their religion are supposed to be what saves us from whatever ails us and how it’s funny that they are so against us turning any worldly therapy or any any other sort of medium to help with our issues. Yes. Those are the people who helped us most borders. And I think a lot. I never felt well I’m not one iota of compassion from the elders that pretty much raised me. Never. Never once did I feel like they were truly on my side. You know horrible you know there’s supposed to be loving shepherds looking for lost sheep and caring.

[00:51:39] You know they always had these pictures in the magazines of a shepherd holding a little lamb or whatever. But you know in a caring way. But you know so often when people go to the elders in the congregation for for help for truly devastating problems I think it just gets back to what you said a minute ago and that is they pretty much just point a back at you and say it’s your fault. Yeah yeah. There is bad and might be separating the flock books deflect. Yeah it’s not it’s not just to make you feel like it’s a man. I don’t know. But I’ll tell you I think that I do think that on some level it takes a certain personality to climb the ladder of Jehovah’s Witnesses to even become an elder sometimes. I’m not I’m not indicting all elders as stone faced compassionate less monsters now but there are certainly a lot of that Jordy of them. There are a lot. You know I got into you as I got older. And then I could drive my life was a little bit easier I guess. And when I switched halls I ended up meeting a guy and I married him to be honest with you just to get out of my parents house to and can’t blame the congregation that he went to. There were some really nice people there you know. I mean it’s the organization that’s cricket it’s the it’s the organization. The rules and the policies that they set down an end. And I don’t think that all of these elders are. I don’t I don’t think they even know how really like screwed up they are.

[00:53:42] I mean I think you know just like what they’ve been brainwashed to do just like read it. They’re doing what they’ve been indoctrinated to do and they make and they’re being passed up like cause it’s a big responsibility to shepherd the flock and so you know you’re doing God’s will. You’re doing what God told you to do. You know and I guess there’s not much room for compassionate love when on the business end of that. And that’s what most of them look at it as just regulations. Yeah yeah and that’s like that. I know I listen to your podcast and you know that rank and file you know at. OK so first of all I’m I’m a kid and sick enough female. And third I’ve already been a reproof so there is like no room for compassion for somebody like me because I’m not any of those things that you need to be. You weren’t even an ounce of respect from an elder. So it is. I don’t know. As a kid it really made me feel so important. Yeah it’s got to be hard to have self respect. Well I know it was for me in such an environment where you’re so invalidated all the time. I respect for myself either I get it. Yeah. So then is the next step in your life then pretty much you know getting married to this person. And yeah a few years and in between there I still struggled with my identity with an making meetings and I was depressed. There was a point in time I developed an eating disorder. And I got really really skinny and we were on vacation.

[00:55:49] One year my family and I and my dad busted in on me in the bathroom when I was throwing up what we had eaten and so on. They put me in the hospital. So I was in a mental hospital here for her for a little while. And when I came out of there is when I decided OK I’m going to turn over a new leaf I’m really going to give it my all this time with that with that organization. And I’m not I’m not going to go dressed in black and shave my head and you know because these are things I’ve done. Like I would go to the Keenum Hall in black head to toe. I had cut my hair off my hair was really long I cut it all off I had color orange I had colored it black you know any sort of expression that I could get away with. I was doing it. So it sounds like you’re kind of trying to trying to find yourself or just have a little control over you her life you know. Yeah in that life where you’ve had so little control and been trapped by so many things just coloring your hair different. Hey it’s something you can control just like honestly the eating disorder those are usually about control. Yeah exactly. And you know also a part of that was when you know a lot of people are going to treat me like shit anyway I’m going to do what I wanted.

[00:57:12] I don’t have friends here know how anybody to impress you so I’m gonna come dressed in all black and wear black makeup and comb my hair in my head or do what I want because it’s not like anybody cares you know. You know if they care they would take time out to talk to me. So since since you’re gonna treat me like an outcast I’m gonna go ahead and be with you. And yeah I did have a lot to do with control. And the lack of control I had in my life and making any decisions for myself. So you know I try to get over that they put me on like all these psych meds and I’m worth 30 days. I was in this hospital in a glass room so that every time that are eight they would make me sit in them you know the floor for an hour after 8:00 to make sure that I wasn’t going to go out there I out. And I did that for like 30 days every single day. And I was on so much medicine that I could not. Like I literally could not see straight. I was seeing double because I was on so much mess and all I wanted to do was sleep. So I come home with these medications and I just feel like a zombie like I don’t remember a whole lot of that my life. So I start slowly weaning off of the medications and then going back to meetings and trying to find branch out and find a group of young individuals that I can get along with that I can’t fit in with. Which is where I met my first husband. And they were they were close they were. They were skaters. They listened to rock music.

[00:58:44] They got together on the weekends and had chaperoned parties where we all had fun and you know I mean it was like I actually started to feel like I applaud them because they didn’t judge me. But they were like those walk the line witnesses Hitler there’s a lot of absolutely everything that they could do without getting. Yeah. Right up to the line. Yeah exactly like toes dangling off the edge. Oh I was like these are my kind of people I could be a witness if I could do it like this. So you know that was nice to finally have a place right. Happy in the sky. You know you take an interest in me. We have talked a lot. And to be honest with you I really wasn’t in love with him. I was in love with the boy from my congregation that I had tried to date for a long time and it just didn’t work out because we were so like mentally screwed up from this indoctrination. We were both so crazy like you know we had no clue who we were relation at the time but am he you know he he ended up calling me three days before my wedding to this guy and my parents had already paid for everything you know for me you get married. They paid for the trip. I was marrying and he had proved himself that he cared about me unconditionally. No decisions on our relationship. And I just I’m used to it. How so. The guy called me in it was like the hardest thing I’ve ever had in the mood is saying. I’m kind of a scheduled myriads other guy. Sorry.

[01:00:42] And as a witness you know they view an engagement almost as though you are married. So you act like an engagement is a promise. And if you bring up an engagement you can get in trouble for that. So yeah. And especially if I were to break it off to go with this other kid. Yeah. There’s no perfect the whole and not me. And I’m really this point this is my last ditch effort. You know I’m going to I’m gonna do this. You know I’m not I’m not going to give up on this religion and I’m not going to give up because my mom and dad like I had been threatened with being disfellowshipped so many times excommunicated and so many times as a teenager because of my actions that they didn’t like so I’m scared to death that I’m going to get this fellowship and the only family that I have the only people that have ever been consistent in my life will have shown me. And so I’m just I’m doing anything I can at this point to stay on the good side because I don’t want to lose my mom and dad and my brother. Right. So I get married and I moved to Cincinnati and I’m married like pretty much falls apart before it ever starts. Regarding to some very immoral sayings we were drinking all of the time smoking weed and as he went he would drink he would be drunk all the time and he wasn’t like an abusive drunk or anything. Happy drunk.

[01:02:05] It was just he was sloppy and we argued a lot and we had no clue how to be a daughter how to be married or you know it was typical with this kids getting married. Yeah exactly. That’s one thing I did like every other witness. But we were also clueless at that point. Yeah. Well we had no we didn’t know how to be anything like I did not know how to be an adult. Okay I did. What what politics were. I don’t know. I never had to pay attention to how many taxes they were taken out of my paycheck or balancing a checkbook or paying bills or you know like I was never taught life skills. I was hopscotched off of that so I didn’t have any idea how to socially interact with people who weren’t jobs. Yeah cause you know the. As you mentioned before the marriages as Jehovah’s Witnesses almost on some level feel arranged and there’s such a lack of the ability to really get to know another person in there. You know chaperone courtship arrangement. Then you end up marrying somebody and finding out oh look you know he he is he can’t start drinking and he’s doing other things and and exact things you could have known other than for the arrangement. The Jehovah’s Witnesses Jews as far as dating goes exactly. Yes. So I still feel guilty about that because honestly he was not a bad person. He’s not a bad guy. We just weren’t right for each other. I did try very hard to make it work though once we moved. I really honestly.

[01:03:52] I can be honest in saying this now and I’m not saying it in like I’m not trying to say it in like a bragging way but I really just marry him to get out of my parents house and I and I thought that’s what you were supposed to do get you into a certain age. Three days after I turned 18. Yeah. Yeah but it hurt a lot. Yeah. And so I just we tried to make it work for a little while. But we both started seeing someone else and the only reason I didn’t get disfellowshipped because of our divorce is because we were both inactive at the time and because she had he had committed adultery. He had been with someone else and had admitted to it. And so I didn’t get disfellowshipped for that. And I’m already considered I’m hiding I’m ducking and dodging the others after this. Like I’m not even in mobile anymore so I don’t have to worry about facing the same people that were in my congregation. So I could go to new car she started new and they don’t even have to know about all this stuff right. Right. And I’m not thinking they’re gonna stay in my publisher’s God with all the private notice about you. So then they got the dirt on these others. They realized you know what we’re going to do. And since you been an active for a little while and you’re coming to us and we think you’re truly repentant for everything that’s happened we’re a lot let you start over like we’re not going to put on her proof. Now we want you to study with the sister here and we’re just going to treat you like a study and movie backup so you can’t answer any questions right away.

[01:05:34] But you know if you come to meetings consistently you can start answering questions again. And you know we’ll worry about all that as it comes. We’ll let you progress backup. So I thought this is it. This is my chance right. That was actually somewhat kind of them. Yeah it was but these were Aldred these were in Cincinnati Ohio got up and I had started smoking cigarettes at this point. And so I was not willing to give up smoking. I mean I tried but I just it’s a very very hard addiction to ultimate. And they thought I should just be over a period away you know oh my goodness. You just stopped smoking. So then I had called in to in a meeting with those owners a couple turns and they’re like if you can’t quit smoking get healthy. So I just stopped going again. Right. Like I run from the problem because that’s the best way for me in that time. Right. Those were the tools you had. Exactly. I don’t know how to work this out or anything so I just I stopped going again and I’m still making the memorial. You know my mom’s like oh no you’re not making other means but you have to make the memorial. So I I do it to make her happy here. And I met another guy and had my first son with this man. And you know me my picker was broken because this man was very emotionally abusive to me and controlling.

[01:07:09] And so it was very fitting for me to be with someone who was going to control every aspect of my life. And I went through our a string of bad decisions with him and I started drinking and using drugs after my son was born. I was using cocaine and ecstasy and pretty much anything else that was offered to me at the time. I would do it I mean that makes sense. Yeah. Well I didn’t want to have that. I was always looking for an escape. You know of course of course I was nothing nothing to this point has ever been dealt with. You know exactly and not only has it not been dealt with but up until this point in my life I’ve never felt my gobble armed anywhere. And that’s a deep emotional pain because as humans it’s in our nature that you want to be have that herd mentality and you want to fit somewhere I want to go somewhere where you feel safe. And I never have. So I didn’t I didn’t I didn’t delve into my addiction at that point but later on in my life I did develop a very honest debris addiction to drugs. I tried to fill that void with sperm men with getting that attention. You know that from a man to validate me I’m it would work for a little while. But then once reality set in and hit the newness where were off and he wasn’t in love with me anymore I would just drop him and go on somebody else. He was going to worship me for a little while. Yeah it’s really sad. A lot of people are immense Herpa that comes with all that too. Well there is. Yeah.

[01:09:05] Because for the first time I felt like I adored and respected him. You know what to an extent anyway even if it was just like a physical validation it was validation and I craved that. So you know things things progressed. My mom and dad didn’t really shun me. They knew I wasn’t doing the right thing but they were always you know trying to tell me my dad was not a bad times we necessarily think that he wrote something or met you which Mersch is it your mother’s right and you need to go back to the whore you know kind of. He he would like. Eventually he got to the point where he agreed with my man. And I guess he finally decided or they decided together that they did love each other and it was worth fighting through for their marriage and they got to a place where my dad wouldn’t go to the hall. But he didn’t oppose my mother got anymore. He would help my mom get my little brother ready or help her cook dinner or make sure that we were being quiet. My mom was doing her Bible study or whatever so he got to a point where he was more supportive. But by that point I was already far too far gone I guess. You know ordinary affect me that much that he and then I just thought it was hypocritical of him like how are you going to tell me to do this. You don’t do it. And you can tell and I don’t want to think you’re going make me go anyway. You know yeah yeah.

[01:10:24] Suddenly you think about those with your dad because they don’t know what her so then you know how did this. So you’re not you’re not disfellowshipped or anything you’re you’re just you know you’re living this life your sounds like your own addiction at this point. How did that you know how did that play out. As far as you know from there on because you know that you know honestly with all the trauma and not just you know that you know most people will see trauma as obviously you know what happened to you when you were a little kid from Europe your uncle but you know trauma has just been the name of the game throughout your life as you’re going through. You know this whole life as a witness and then you know now you’ve got I’m sure there are negative consequences and traumas as a result of the drugs and everything else. Honestly you’re probably very fortunate that you didn’t destroy yourself. That probably it speaks to you know your spirit. So how did how did that you know transform over time. Well like I said I went from just dabbling in different drugs and then I did quit for a little while I went to school to get my cosmetology license. I got my cosmetology license and was happy by a very short period of time. I’m getting married to my sons Dad would fix everything it just made it worse. So when I mean our society last year and one day I just packed my stuff while he was at work and I ran and felt really guilty because I lost my son for a period of time.

[01:12:15] But I had to do what I had to do it away from him. I’m desperate at that point to just get away from him. I could not under the abuse any longer I was really sick. I had developed a stomach disease a rare stomach condition called gastroparesis and I had had seven surgeries and the two year period was on pain medicine. Just one prescription after the other after the other. And so I’ll get a prescription every month from my doctor thinking that I meet it because I’m in pain not realizing that when I run out I’m not so sick because of my disease I’m sick because I’m going through withdraw because I’m now addicted to these opiates. I didn’t know what addiction was. My family never really had that dare talk with me. You know we never really talked about that kind of stuff because they never expected that of me being raised as a witness. That was more it was more women never expected me to dive into that. You know so we never had that talk about drugs and how they can ruin your life even if they had. I’m not sure what made a difference because I was just taking the medicine that the doctor prescribed me not not realizing that I’ve got this physical addiction that has grown inside of you. So I get cut off from the doctor because you know I’m trying to refill my medication too early like three months in a row and I start. And so I mean I’m as if all the trauma that happened when I was younger wasn’t enough I’m traumatizing myself over and over again every day with this day in and day with.

[01:13:49] You know I was I was homeless for a little while just on people’s couches and and then my addiction really took off when I was about twenty seven. And I had met another guy and had another son. And the crazy thing about this is one thing I’m really grateful for. Through all of this is that I never had any hard core addictions when I was pregnant with my kids. So I didn’t have to worry about my children being born addicted to drugs. I can imagine what what a woman goes through when she has that problem and I used to be really judgmental I think and how could you do drugs when you’re pregnant with your baby you don’t care about your baby. That’s not true. Addiction is a monster addiction will take everything from you and make you feel like it’s everybody else’s fault that your life is in shambles. You know it’s hard to take that power back but just miraculously somehow I ended up not being on any hard drugs or anything when I was pregnant with my kids so they were born healthy. They’re very smart sweet intelligent children. Unfortunately the cycle continued with them because you know through my addiction and through the trauma that I had never dealt with my children ended up going through a trauma. They ended up leaving a sick life because I was sick. And so it was a ripple effect. I wasn’t there for my children. Emotionally I would leave my kids for days at a time with my parents and go off to use drugs and be just laid up in abandoned house somewhere high for days.

[01:15:23] I have no clue what actually happened to me some of those days. I don’t know the people that I was around. I’m. You’re right. I’m really really really fortunate to have come through that as unscathed as I did. And it’s not it’s not a place when I was that 13 year old girl get that test that I ever imagined my wife would be at because I thought that their religion was going to fix all of these issues I was having. And I thought that these people would help me get over what I had experienced and make me a better person. And that’s just not the case. You know what. It’s not what happened. You heard that Jehovah has limitations. Yeah yeah exactly yeah. And you know a hen so throughout all of this progressing my addiction went from prescription pills and alcohol to heroin. And I had started you know just wasn’t using intravenous at first for the first couple of years but it developed did you anI.V. drug use situation an arm I’ll leave a lot of those details just because it’s it’s too much to get into. Really wish I had. OK sir. By this time I had left my midriffs CERN’s dad and I had a string of men who when I actually did commit myself to a man he would always cheat on me. He would always either read me for someone else or he would say was me. Because you know I I worked I cook I clean to Jahid kids. A lot of the guys in my life didn’t really have any responsibility that took on that responsibility because I wanted to fix someone.

[01:17:14] And I was so desperate for somebody to love me and to care about me that I was willing to go to any lengths to make that happen. So I would say no no no no you don’t have to go to work. I worked two jobs. No let me cook for you. Let me take care. Maybe let me do the housework thinking oh they’re going to have so much admiration and for me that they will be able to leave me because they never going to finally get a tree that is not so bad. Do you think that in any way. I guess I’m a little bit of a workaholic myself and I kind of attribute a lot of that to growing up a witness as a witness you are a people pleaser or you’re out of taught to be. And we always had so much to do as witnesses that there wasn’t really time to just sit down and just be you are always doing something you know the difference between a human being and a human doing. You know we were human doings we were always busy going here and going out in service or going to this meeting or studying this and then you from what you said also had this family element where you were taking care of your younger brother and you were helping your cousin in the homeschooling while trying to kind of do the homeschooling yourself and in addition to all these other witness activities so do you feel that just.

[01:18:47] Just struck me do you feel that you know some of these relationships not only was it just you know desperation for attention for love for validation but also kind of a bond and a need or something that has been developed in you to just keep doing something always. Well yeah I still have that issue. I’m verya.g so I’m always fidgeting. Like we’re talking right OK. My hands are man and I’m crossing and crossing my legs. Oh understand. It’s busy work. You get so reigned in during that busy work when you’re a part of the organization because they keep you doing that so that your mind is focused on what they want to be focused on. So we’re not missing on any doubt you may have or you’re not really able to look at the big picture because you’re so busy. Yeah. Some guests that definitely think that probably it has something to do with it. I’m not sure that I ever really respect the kinds. I’ve always been Saccharomyces you know I had always been stuck on trying to get attention from someone or validation or that loves or be you know that that you make a really good point there that I’m always it’s something that I just don’t know how to not do. I don’t know how to say it so I don’t you know I don’t know how to not do that busy work. I guess I have I have two speeds and that’s on and off. And either you know sometimes I can sit there and just kind of go in front of the TV. I like the TV honestly and personally I like to watch reruns of shows because I don’t have to pay attention to them.

[01:20:35] And I can just turn my brain off it’s pretty much the only way I can get otherwise I’m just constantly going. But you know even every human being needs to shut down at some point. So that’s how I do it. But I just it’s something that I’ve been realizing myself and you know just hearing your experience here just made me wonder if you thought that might play into it as well. Obviously there’s lots of things at play you know in our humanity. But it seems to have quite an impact on us. You know the whole experience of being a witness not to mention all of the other stuff that you had to deal with and face Oh yeah Devon definitely makes an impact. The whole my whole life was just kind of a recipe for disaster. To an extent as far as my drug use goes and how far down that I went where I hit bottom with that. Yes. So even though I found healthy ways now to keep myself busy and I find healthy ways to I guess decompress. It’s still something that I’ll know that I’ll ever be able to get rid of that you know that feeling. Because when you’re a witness when you’re in the truth quote of course you feel guilty if you’re not. If you have downtime because that means you could be spending either in battle field service. You know at the Keenum studying more in depth next week’s Watchtower Bible study or whatever you like so you’ll see if you take time to yourself. There is not. There is no allowance for you to know who you are. For you to enjoy you there’s no allowance for that.

[01:22:22] So I still feel that way now. As a mother as a wife and in a lot of times I’ll give this to you and say I don’t ever have time for me I don’t ever get slowed down. I don’t make time for me I don’t make time to sort out. So really I can’t you out right now. I have to make that time and I just don’t because I end up like something in the back of my mind says that I’m not allowed. Something tells me I’m not allowed. I recently listened to a podcast. There’s a book by a lady named Gretchen Rubin and the book is entitled The four tendencies and the book has to do. From what I could gather with with how humans respond to outside expectations and there were four different tendencies for categories it was like Upholder questioner rebel or a bludger. And when she was going through them the first thing I thought is oh I’m a questioner you know I’ve questioned a lot of things in my life that helped me to leave this organization behind to help me leave this cult that had me helps me to to challenge my my own perceptions on a lot of things and to find a healthier freer life. But as she was talking about them and I believe there was a test that you could take on her Web site. It was very apparent to me that actually at my core everyone has some of all these qualities but I am Anna Bligh Jr.

[01:23:59] I am very much a person that if I feel that there is an outside expectation of me to do something I will absolutely do it and go above and beyond the Indian thing going above and beyond and doing it obliges tends to make excellent people in service industries like I work in. Because your customers are going to love you you’re going to do anything for them. But obliges tend to end leaving themselves out of the equation and that can make a very bitter resentful. Yeah. Conversations with yourself can. It can. And I really think I think that on some level I was naturally wired that way. You know again we all have parts of these qualities but I wonder how much are our upbringing as witnesses. I almost wish I wish I could take some sort of a survey of it. I don’t know maybe I’ll put up a survey on the on the Web site or something I’m think about that but I just wonder how many other people who might be listening to this who are ex witnesses would would also kind of tick the box of being in a bludger and I think that that has to do with growing up in an organisation that was so authoritarian and that absolutely made us that way not in an organization that if you like you don’t you’re not allowed to have free thought or an it’s all so it’s not about you. It’s all about them. It’s all about them and it’s all about their name. You know they know they want that gold star by their name. Yep and you have to get it for Zakhilwal. Yeah and if you don’t then your hey you’re out buddy. You voted yes. Now. Yeah.

[01:26:05] We were never allows for it to be about us right. We didn’t birthdays we didn’t have celebrations where we were special. No we weren’t. We weren’t told that we were special again like we were good for nothing slaves of Jehovah just as it was. So why would we ever think that it was about anything other than them or quote unquote Jehovah. You know is it’s just waking up to this has been has been life changing and heart breaking and freeing all at the same time. It almost makes you or me personally. It almost makes me feel like how could I be so stupid. How could I be so good. You know what I mean to think that that even though even though I had questions about it my whole life I’ve had questions about the people. But my mom always told me you don’t serve the man you serve God you serve Jehovah. You do these things because of Jehovah and the organization of religion has good bones and that there’s people in the organization that are going to be good people because we’re all imperfect but it’s not up to us to serve man. We serve Jehovah. So my whole life I’ve gone through this every phase of my life where I’ve done really effed up things.

[01:27:28] And when I come back around when I come down I’ve got that guilt still in the back of my head about the truth that this is the truth and how how can I turn my back on it and I know what I need to do and I’ve been told my whole life that you know all this bad shit that’s happened to you has happening to you because you aren’t serving Jehovah and if you just serve Jehovah and get back into the congregation your life will be fine. Jahar would bless you if you were doing what you were supposed to do. But we’re not going to help you because you’re not doing the same. And it’s all your fault it’s your fault it’s your fault. That’s all there is to it. So my whole life I think about all these times that I finally thought I was going to break away from the religion. I did it in the wrong way. I did it through you know through promiscuity and through drug abuse and through running. You know I was scared you didn’t know who I was so I didn’t know how to break away and just beat me. So I think about all these times like how could I really have thought I never I never thought to look deeper. It was it wasn’t until I started listening when I connected with you on Facebook and started listening to your podcast and then I started listening to JT and Lady C. And this is a man who was in Bethel. Okay. This is a man who would have been like royalty to us in our congregation. And he’s not he’s not gashing he’s not bashing he’s not he’s not speaking out at all. Some sort of resentment. He’s not being vile about it. He’s speaking from his heart about this organization and why he just could not go on. You know I mean because it is crooked like he but he wasn’t. He’s not trying to convert anybody else. He just has a simple discussion just like you.

[01:29:24] You told your story if you didn’t want anybody into a category of everybody in this way this is bad and you need to leave right now. You told your story and you changed my perspective you knew open my eyes saw that I could question. So I know I’m the only one who was questioning his dignity. That it’s such an instantaneous thing that the way they make us feel alone because we can’t talk about it. Yes exactly. Yes. And so once I realized I wasn’t alone and actually did do some research for myself and that I could I could ask questions because I wasn’t the first one to ask those questions. And like apostates were a real thing. Many were certain death if you ever talk to an apostate or loaded up past they say oh yeah. So yeah it was really the turning point in my life just hanging in like the last year. Because when I got clean and sober in 2014 where do you think I went back to the Chelimo. Exactly. I went back to I started attending meetings. What did the brothers and I confessed all my sins. Our show. And I thought you know that brother was your brother. Now I have to say this brother he will always love him and I’ll always have respect for him because not once did he ever look at me as anything other than a person. He didn’t look at me as a bad stepsister. He looked at me as a drug addict he didn’t look at me as somebody who had children out of wedlock.

[01:31:01] He looked at me as somebody who’s been hombres you look at me as a person. And to this day this brother has still sent me text messages or if he sees me in public he won’t judge me. He refuses to work and that means so much to me because it gave me hope like a glimmer of hope. And I really want to go to him some time. And like text him the link to your podcast stands the link to like JT inlays just see what would happen because you could tell that he is an elder. He has a reputation. You are recording. However he is not going to let them take his humanity. Yeah. And so I have. I have mad respect for their elders to be honest. It’s that the people who don’t allow their humanity to be taken are often the people who leave. So yeah you know there’s still hope there is hope that I don’t want to be the one. I just really thought about hey here’s the information it’s right in front of you take your Revitt do what you want. I don’t want you. I don’t know. That’s right. It’s like I have a ambivalent about it. No I understand because it’s it’s it’s a you don’t want to destroy somebodies life that they have if they’re happy. Exactly yeah. I totally get that. You know and look you know my podcasts Ray Franz’s book Crisis of Conscience JT and Lady C John Cedar’s like all these. There is so much information out there. I mean I’m leaving out so many people who are out there that are you know producing different content.

[01:32:48] The Army just as the that army of apostate chick the other all these people who are putting things out there that you know in their own voice and you know some times you know one person’s voice. I remember when I when I first came out I didn’t like Lloyd Evans’s stuff. I found it be a survey it was it was too strong for me. I just wasn’t I wasn’t ready to handle the directness of some of that information I just couldn’t I couldn’t look at that on at the time and I only did something else. And there were other things. Yeah. Yeah. So you don’t want to leave you in a little more gently. Yeah yeah definitely it a little more. It was very hard to look at all this stuff it was terrifying and very difficult. And you know so many people who are listening I’m sure have been through that process. So this this elder this guy that you have this you know respect for. You know if if he’s looking he’ll find it and if he’s really open and if he’s not then he won’t. And you know it’s his life. Exactly. It’s his life. You know I just I’m just that’s why I figured out I have this issue like I really want to do that and at the same time I doubt it’s because that at one point in time if someone had tried to show me those things I wear them like most of the witnesses are and dismiss it and being really upset was something I had become too on my own.

[01:34:27] So I would have dug in further I would have said not only am I not going to listen to whatever this is. I’m going to double down on being a witness because now I’m scared. Yeah exactly. Yeah but seeing your podcast was the first thing I ever listened to that was Antine Jadavpur you know I had heard things before and had conversations all about you know even as an inact it’s non-member Jehovah’s Witnesses about’s you know oh well I’m not in the religion but I would never bring reproach upon Jehovah’s name. And this is what they really believe and you know it’s so interesting to witness to people even though in my heart I know I don’t believe it. But I feel like I’m afraid if that comes out of my mouth that that disbelief if those questions come out of my mouth. I’m on Mattingley like I’m going to be zapped off the earth. Then you know to this day to this day and you know I’ll say it I’m an atheist at this point. But to this day if I say something and you listen to my part here on the show and podcast you I do occasionally say things I’ll joke about something or whatever. Yeah it’s still pings in the back of my head. Oh you’re bringing reproach on Jehovah’s name. He’s going to kill you. And it’s like you know a lot of talk. We can’t rewire our selves now. Well it doesn’t go well you know I don’t know I’ve I’ve only been out two and a half years or less you know maybe eventually it will go away. That sounds nice as well.

[01:36:05] But it also kind of just points to how much like let let’s break this down. What were what was it that we were really being ruled by. It wasn’t this loving God it wasn’t out of love for neighbor any of that. It was fear it was fear that if there is this authority figure in the sky that if we don’t do everything just right is going to kill us. Yeah like we used to exist in there’s no after life. You’re just going and you’re going to be gone. You’re going to have no happiness. You’re going out. You have nothing right. You know what this is what I always talk about you know in the Bible it talks about the fear of God being a motivation. And they would always say that it’s not a fear. Help me see here. Oh yes yes. So you feel. Yeah. A healthy fear of displeasing him just like when you want to displease your parents right. Well I mean that nobody wants to displease their parents. You know everyone wants to respect and love their parents. But if just being you displeases them and they are going to kill you for it then that’s not healthy. Yeah well that’s that’s like being in an abusive relationship and being abused as a child. You. It’s not a healthy fear of displeasing because it’s a loving and forgiving God. If you just please weddings again in God in you’re imperfect and we know you’re imperfect then why would you have to be so out of step that he’s going to smite you once you cease to exist because you made a mistake. Right.

[01:37:42] You make human error. So yeah it never made sense to me. And I don’t think I’ve ever read that. And I’ll tell you in the last year I’ve had one times where I have had these deep like irrational thoughts in my head when this really is the truth. I am an apostate now and I’m speaking out against it and it turns out to be true. That’s right. I can’t get it out of my head. The sandstorm has wrought Judy and I just hope it’s a thing. I don’t think ever Rogel away. Maybe maybe it will years down the road. I hope that maybe actually help some people just kind of see the light so to speak and to help them if they want out. They know how to reach out like it maybe that will be therapeutic in a way. I hope this I hope that you might know it is therapeutic. I can 100 percent say that it’s very therapeutic and I think that it that honestly doing this podcast does help me too because we all need it. You know every one of us that left this still has those those things in the back of our head that ping us at times leftover indoctrination and it helps to be able to talk about it and to help others and things like that. So yeah in every Chanderpaul have said listen to them they’re telling a piece of my story. There’s always that common pebble. You know that we have. And so that in itself is therapeutic in healing for me. Every single time that I hear.

[01:39:25] That’s that’s why I kind of approached you had said like hey I want to be a part of this because every time that I hear those those things that we have in common it is just reaffirms that I’m not alone in that I’m not crazy and that I’m not a bad person and that I don’t have to be a victim anymore I can stand up for myself. Yeah that’s pretty cool and in fact you know what you’re doing right now is kind of standing up for yourself. You know it’s you know the consequence is that this the scariest for me. We’ve talked about that you know. So yeah. But you’re not officially shown at this point. No not officially. I’m sure and I’m not. It’s not on paper yet but I promise you it’ll get back around and I will be I’m sure. And if it does and I’ve come to terms with that I’ve come to peace with that and I respect my parents for who they are and what they choose to believe. It’s sad that they can not even respect me for who I am and what I choose to believe. But that’s just because they’re just as brainwashed as I was at one point. So my dad is now baptized and goes to meetings and is just as indoctrinated as my mother. And it’s like I think you were talking about this in more of your earlier podcasts about secondhand smoke effect. And in a continuing secondhand smoke effect where you know when you smoke around someone they may not be directly putting it in their lungs that secondhand smoke affects their actions like those people could get sick from being in that atmosphere.

[01:41:07] So it’s kind of an anathema to NATO is that that that atmosphere that was around my dad my dad you know his fame was not really close to him and my mom. And you know my mom’s family they were the ones that were around so he was around us atmosphere. Jehovah’s Witness religion he was around this culture he saw. So my mom goes through all of these things and you know Hando you know her life through the policies of the cult and how women rock. The one thing that really was the turning point for my dad was my mom. You know the whole world issue. Jehovah’s Witnesses refuse blood transfusions. So my mom has always been very ill. Pretty much my entire life. She’s had her problems she’s cancer she’s had some serious diseases she’s had surgery after surgery. And so my mom’s surgery a few years back and the doctors Kagin when they told him you know call your Priester or whoever to do last Friday because she’s bleeding out and she’s not going to make it down there. So my word for the first time ever in my life that means he hit his knees and he was like you know Jehovah we’re not on good terms but you saved my life. I will do. I would do whatever you want I promise you I would do whatever she wants me to do if you just let her live. I’ll be a Jehovah’s Witness. I’ll be a good person I’ll quit drinking completely out of watching horror movies.

[01:42:46] My dad is begging on his hands and knees his eyes out because I’ll tell you what my parents they’ve been put that together and they’ve come out the other side stronger. My parents are just as alert today as they were when they first met and my parents are a special breed. I don’t know how to explain man. One hand are very cold towards me. They weren’t like I’m gonna ask them for help you know because I know where I am sure I’m going to get which is. Well you were right. What a relief it shall even. Yes it’s a conditional love to an extent. And then there’s other times where they’re so confusing because they will call me to tell me Oh you’re that sick and he’s gonna have surgery or whatever. So I don’t really know how to take that again. Gynt fusion of mixed signals like Maharastra nothing but my dad was just and his heart you know. So she came through somehow she pulled through that surgery without any blood or blood products or anything and she was in the hospital for a few weeks and she was really weak. She made it and my dad kept his promise. No that’s what he said he’s going to do so that’s what he did. And he studied and he started going to meetings and he got baptized this last year. And you know maybe he should have became a doctor since that was the doctors that saved him saved her. Yeah right. Give us about that other. Yeah. The doctors performed the surgery that saved your mom. That’s who he is he really owes something to but.

[01:44:36] Now I understand and I understand the emotions of that and and you know death is something that’s bigger than us and that’s scary and you know you’re looking at losing somebody you love. And yeah you know I completely see how you know emotions get heightened and you would do anything you know to save that person. So he has followed you know. And it was I guess it was one of those points where my dad can he didn’t really have much known for him in the way of his Catholicism anyway. He hadn’t gone to the church and he didn’t do any of that stuff. So why not. You know I mean his character was one of those Weinert situations where one just bugged me my I closer together. We’ll have every that we can share sir. Hey it sounds like it got him to quit drinking too. So I mean that’s click click heavily drinky. Yeah. I doubt put in that mental hospital. That was a turning point as well. He quit heavily drinking then I guess maybe it was a little bit of a wakeup call for him that we and our dynamic changed that went to my dad. We don’t have a strained relationship as my mother. I do. But I still not I still feel like I’m unapproachable to me. Now even evenF.R. even if I wanted to approach them with something they’re just the way they would be possible. So it often ends up being pretty one sided because Jehovah’s Witnesses have this policy of shunning and then the only like a loophole in their shunning policy is that a person can be spoken to for quote necessary family business.

[01:46:29] Who determines what necessary family businesses. Is the witness so weak as the non witness you don’t get to determine that they do. And so it so it becomes this one sided thing where when they need you when they want something from you they will let you know but otherwise they’re probably not going to be there for you. And the sad thing is like my go know I can’t say that there will be a point in time where I’m not there for them if they do call me. Because as Emily and I refuse to be that way out west this cult or a reason because it might be that kind of person. So I refuse to be that person so whenever my family ever calls me and eat something I’m going to be there for farm because that’s what SAMEWAY supposedly thinks. Yeah that’s beautiful. Are there any questions that haven’t gotten fixed. Well. Well I know we talked about my addiction. We really talk about my recovery as much so when I did go back yeah I mean it’s in rehab. You know I needed some help. I needed a program that would help me learn how to live again. Being sober and drug free and that would help me learn how to some sort of therapeutic process. I could go through to leave all this crap behind so that I could be the person that I was meant to be. I guess you could say that you and I went brothers. Yet when I went to the brothers in the congregation they had no symptoms. You know they just had nothing for me. They treated me like scum of the earth.

[01:48:01] Most of them when I went back to the congregation. I was raised in. They would not even look at me. There were two people there even were remotely happy to see me. Then one of those people you may know. It’s like you could say it’s mama. I didn’t know I didn’t want to. Yeah your mom. Remember that. Nice to me. She really was she. She told me Don’t worry about what anybody else said she was just happy to see me. And then another sister the sister that actually studied with my mom brought her in. She was very nice to me. I went back several several times and was it was the same way every time. Nobody even looked at me. They would just walk past me like I wasn’t standing there so I’m trying to talk you not talk to my mom and said you know my mom I’m dry in here. I just feel so out of place. I feel like they’re never going to let go of my past. The money Nevine. So she says well you know they’re hurt you hurt them. You have to look at it like this. They put their trust in you that you wouldn’t bring reproach upon Jehovah’s name and you did and they were hurt so that you have to prove yourself to them before they’re gonna give you their attention. Because they gave you their attention in a way when you were younger and you traded. So now you have to prove yourself. That was her justification her reasoning behind why they treated me like that.

[01:49:32] The film’s loving you. I turned to you know Hafsat program on the bike an Alcoholics Anonymous program. And you know I was sponsored by a woman to help me get down to the root of my problems who helped me be armed with the facts about who I really am and helped me blossom into this. This journey of of who who do I want to be. Who am I. Who are you. Like I really don’t know. So let me know. I was in the middle of this identity crisis trying to stay clean and sober trying to regain everything I had lost my addiction and the first place. Like I said that I thought to go was back to the organization. And it was the first place I went and the first place that turned around and kicked me right out the door. Basically you know saying I’ve found no solace there I found no shelters here. There was no refuge for me in the organization. So all but you know I’m my one of the biggest problems I have especially with that congregation is the man who molested me as a child is a member of that creation still. No. Yeah he he is a member. He goes to that congregation. He may have moved from that congregation. Now I don’t know. I haven’t spoke to him at all. You know my family when he got out of prison they just pretend like everything should be fine like I should be run to be in a room with this man. We had a graduation party my brother. It was like a huge day.

[01:51:17] He graduated high school for someone with cerebral palsy and autism and his business more like a mental deficiency like a communication issue than it is a physical issue. He’s not in a wheelchair or anything. He just he has problems with comprehension. And he’s like he’s 31 now but he’s got the mentality of like a 15 year old. So for him to graduate high school was an amazing thing. So I’m with my mom. We are planning his Tony. I’ve got decorations. I’ve learned a place to have as part of the cake. I’ve made all these arrangements and I’m so excited to give Mother Brennan’s graduation party because we’re so proud of him. The night before the party my mom and dad very casually very like I guess I don’t know what the word is. Cavalier maybe they were kind of like oh by the way your uncle’s going to be their and US flipped. I lost my shirt. I was like I’ve thrown all my energy and time into this from our brother. And you know how I feel about him you know. Why would he do this and then why would you make it like this surprise. And it’s not the first or last time. Right. Well I guess that was kind of the first time that happened but it wasn’t the last time that it happened. They will have cookouts in the past few years. My parents want cookouts a family gatherings are my mom probably in some cases and you can’t cut my hair and I’ll cry and then it’s like I’m in the middle of cutting her hair.

[01:52:41] Oh your uncle’s on his way over a holiday weekend for a house dad here. We’re going to spend the night Gordon meeting with us. Right. How can best this man who robbed not only me but other girls in our family of our innocence who may have remorse that doesn’t show it as far as I can see he was still never admitted to this day that he hurt me. How is he not shy. And I know it’s completely it’s completely backwards. He’s supposed to be. He’s supposed to be accepted. Now come on Casey look. You. You should just forgive and forget. Okay. Now what you did that’s unforgivable and unforgettable. Well he did. I mean come on. You know when I look at Ben Mike he was just starting and he wasn’t baptized until later when he got out of prison. It was okay it was OK. It got a race all out in the books. I was baptized. So what I did was George havan on the organization I tarnished their name. He didn’t tarnish their name. They didn’t tarnish their name by protecting pedophiles and by punishing the victims. Yeah he tarnished you are you know me and that in turn tarnished their organization. I’m the one who needs to be shot. Right. You haven’t done anything in this whole and everything that you’ve explained so far. You have the only person that you have heard so far as you say you didn’t do anything to hurt anybody else. You took it out on yourself. Yes. And he actively hurt other people. And yet he.

[01:54:30] Oh he’s cool because of some stupid organizational technicality. It’s like nowhere. Will show me in the Bible where it says that once you’re baptized everything you do thereafter counts. But before you’re baptized none of that counts. Like where is that. That’s not there. Yeah. And the fact that they would protect him and that he’s in this congregation with what he did. Okay. And then Emily allows him to come around and I lost custody of my son came on little side. And he live with my brother and I am now you know I’ve been clean and sober a little over three and a half years. So I’m really proud of that. And I’m working so working towards regaining our thanks that I gained weight loss when I was on my addiction my kids be one of those things. Now my 8 year old he lived with my brother and my brother. Knowing how I felt about this and nobody ever protected me nobody ever stood up for me not out of my older brothers. My own father my mother nobody ever stood up for me and said What about how I feel you know and I’m not trying to be poor poor pitiful me now because it’s over with and I have to get a break and run for my own sanity I consider that you know I’ve had enough years of resentment over it. However when I tell my brother how I feel about that and other he has custody of what he’s allowing this person to be around my children. It drove me insane.

[01:56:03] It it’s it’s something that I know I will never be able to accept I’ll never accept that you were allowed this known around my children. You know no it’s not his job. I do in the bedroom. Momma Well let me ask you so I know there was. I just I you can choose to talk about this or not but there was one witness who tried to help you out with your kid right. Oh yes. So you know that brother that I was telling you about that. Never quite lost his humanity and was a really good guy. Right. Right. Okay so I mean I was incarcerated for a while. I was actually clean and sober at the time that I was incarcerated. But because of another technicality of a program I was and I was put in jail. And I had my son was only six weeks old my youngest had a 2 year old. He was only six weeks old pharyngeal and. And I go now and then. Was that right back in. Because I disagreed to go to this long rehab. They wanted me to go to one that was already clean and sober but I’m a felon so I’m kind of like I say I’m not sober to the Commonwealth. In a committed or an easy to hold. Then you have a choice I have to do what they say or go back to jail. Well for the first time in my life I held my integrity and said No I’m not doing this. I didn’t do anything wrong. I’m going to stand up for myself and I’m not going to go get shipped off four hours away from home.

[01:57:42] I want to go home. My kids well they put me back in jail. And this sister wrote me in jail. And she told me that since I had chosen a life of immorality and drugs and crime and couldn’t be a mother to manage children that I she just let her adopt my son out to someone in a congregation because there were people out there who were actually care about my son and give him a chance at a good life serving Jehovah. But he wasn’t even that nice about it. He was not. She was very dry about it. Like basically just he was the only sensible thing for me to do what I would be doing my son a disservice if I didn’t sign him I wrote to her about her adoption and that this lady she’s just she’s never been a nice person in general. Maybe somewhere down deep inside of her she is. But from you know she’s like a third generation or more. so she never had a chance to have a hip a humanity side to her. She’s just she’s a mind was drawn. She wasn’t even born with humanity as far as Asir most of the elders in people in the congregation don’t see you as anything more than the number on your publisher’s card. And that’s how she saw me but she saw a chance at redemption through masseurs. So she wanted to take Marsan from me in an that’s one time my mom did kind of stand up for me though. She was like absolutely not. If anybody’s going to have your son is going to be me.

[01:59:28] So I’ve no problem properly telling this woman to screw off. Any mindless stoners get to rest my to love Jehova. It’s got to be smart. Well obviously. So how much of that letter was about hoping you none of it absolutely none of it really. They don’t I’m just shocked that they would only want what they wanted. She came to visit me one time in the jail and that’s all she talked about was what were my plans because I lived in a trailer park that they owned at the time I lived in a house where my plane with my trailer because they really needed to move my stuff out get somebody else in there. I wasn’t going to be living there. And what did I decide to do about my son. And I just Hungar found up and turned my back and waited to be let out of the. So you were behind the glass. Yes I was ready to go back into the plaza and that the charge had been that there was no concern for me or is there anything they could do to help me or not even money redistributed. Yeah you know it was like all business now they were done with you they just wanted your kid out. Yeah they wanted my offspring. It is sad. It is there anything that you would like people that have never been witnesses to know don’t do it it’s a trap. No not look it’s not that all the people in the organization OK.

[02:01:14] There are some good people in that organization but as you said earlier the majority of the time those people are the ones who end up leaving because they wake up I I don’t think it’s just an organization of these evil vile wicked people. However I do believe that at the top of that pyramid are some evil and vile and selfish people who dole down these principles and these policies and the organization itself is just it’s a very crooked place. And I would not I would not raise my children to be raised like I was. Oh I could. I wouldn’t do you know just do your research. If there’s ever anything if you’ve ever thought about setting with a member of Jehovah’s Witnesses or being a Jehovah’s Witness. Just do your research what they have him tell you is everything that doesn’t. Is it proJ.W. is a lie that’s been handed down by apostates because they are a part of Satan in the world. But that’s that’s not the case. Do your research and you know it is it’s something you know you really want and you think you could be happy then by all means. But from my experience I’m really lucky to be alive today. Very much and I will never go back to that. I will never go back to making myself feel worthless or making myself feel like I’m not good enough. Because you know the religion tell people that I left because I’m a sinner and I’m immoral and I let the world insane take place of Jehovah an organization that’s out there I never had the love for Jehovah my heart. That’s not true. I have a very big heart. I’m a very loving person.

[02:03:22] I mean my husband gets mad at me sometimes because I go out of my way to help other people. And I would take away from myself still to help someone else. A part of that is probably my people pleasing the pirates because I have a lot of compassion and because I’ve been in a lot of dark places in my life. So to see someone else in a dark place where they need help. It just it hits me in the feels I can’t help it. You know I just I want to help in any way I can. And that’s a beautiful quality that you would think that witnesses would have. But they only help people conditionally. So exactly yeah yeah. You know my my husband was interested in going into this nondenominational Christian church. And my sons grandparents are a part of this church. And you know we we went there Father’s Day last year I went for him as a part of his apology I guess you know. And I have never felt more love from any religious organizations but this is not. It’s not like your normal church you know. It’s like your normal church policies where there’s there’s no white rank and file there. These people are just treated like a person. I was hit my vape my cigarette they drink here that I have tattoos. They don’t care that my hair was purple. They didn’t hear that you know they they just they were just like hey you were just happy you’re here. Tell us about yourself tell us about your rights. Is there anything you need. How can we help you.

[02:04:53] And yes Jimmy spoke very Yongs about how these worldly organizations are supposed to be so horrible and evil and how we are supposed to avoid them at all costs. But hell these people didn’t know me from anybody and they reach out a hand and a railing embraced me and more just from day one just nice down to earth people there is nothing fake about them. But this organization who raised me who saw me from the age of two grow up into a young lady into a grow to a young woman who who should have had some sort of emotional investment in me because they’ve known me since I was a baby you know how they have absolutely nothing to offer me. They have no they have no assistance they have no help. They have no not even a nice pair not even a house. They just pretend like at any minute just to get off of them you know it just it just shows like the parallel. It’s everything I needed to know for me to finally leave and just say I’m done. You know and there’s consequences and so be it. But I feel like if my story can help one person who is on that fence about whether or not they should meet who is having doubts who’s experienced anything like what an experience has had their sexual abuse or domestic abuse covered up that is an organization whose parents were told not to go to the police. It was made to feel like everything in her life was their fault. If I can help one person to overcome until less alone it’s worth the consequences because I’m going to walk in my truth today and I’m gonna be free and my true.

[02:06:39] And I don’t have to be afraid of them anymore. Her Yeah you know it’s it’s very wrong. Yeah. You think that riding your allegiance to this organization to this cult is going to give you some deep and personal spiritual connection that you’re going to rise up and feel like you have this conscious contact with Jehovah like he’s truly reaching his holy spirits out you know out there. You’re you’re being showered in it. In fact it’s quite the opposite it’s not until I left completely and finally said enough is enough that I felt any sort of spiritual freedom. And I just I would hate to think that there’s someone out who is scared and you know didn’t get that help because I didn’t speak out. You know what I mean not only understand. So then let me give you the chance to speak out again if you could say anything to your family and friends that shown you or I mean let’s face it you know there could be consequences even of this conversation. You know so let’s say you have a last chance to say something to these people what would you say. I would say I love you and I forgive you and no matter what you ever do I’m going to love you. And you know I’m really sorry that you can’t feel the same way about me my love. I refused to put conditions on my last. And I hope our hope is that if I really prayed like that that I would pray and petition that maybe they wake up and do their own research beautiful.

[02:08:21] Yeah cause I’ve had a beautiful opportunity to actually be my own person and you know I’m not sorry. I love them but I’m not sorry. I’m just not. I’m not going to apologize for being who I am. And that even if they don’t love me unconditionally I will always love them unconditionally. Well that is that is certainly a larger love than a love that only exists as long as you toe a certain line. So you know it’s beautiful when you get free and you can learn what love really is instead of what you and I we’re taught as kids. Is there anything you know other than Well there you go. Other than that love you know is there anything that you’ve learned since you left that that’s really made your life better. Just that I don’t I don’t have to be ashamed of who I am. I don’t have to hide I don’t have to live by that fear obligation and guilt anymore. And you know I mean I enjoy my life today. I enjoy celebrating my children’s birthdays and not having guilt because I had imperfections I can embrace those imperfections today and not criticize myself constantly and I’m just I’m a happy person. I’m very happily married. You know choose what the rest of my life. He supports me unconditionally. He loves me unconditionally. He loves my children unconditionally. I’ve never had that type of love before. Had I stuck in that organization and been put into another arrangement of marriage I probably would have never felt that. And so I’m grateful for the life I have today.

[02:10:15] I don’t I don’t regret one bit of it and honestly being the person that I am today and being grateful for that person everything that I went through in my life led up to me being here at this moment right now. So there’s no point in me saying I would have changed a thing. You know and you know if I’m accept no that makes total sense. Do you have any dreams anything that you’re wanting to do here in your free life. Well yes I do. Well my husband and I are on our own business and we are on a carpentry business. He does remodeling restoration. He likes to build furniture and use reclaimed the word. So we’re working on that and working on building Nadda so that it’s something he can be independent with. And also I am actually working with that non-denominational church right now on some outreach programs for we do a lot of work with people in our community. Some of the ladies they they actually take like all recycled plastic grocery bags and they make sleeping mats for homeless people. We cook we take food out and feed the homeless population as much as we can downtown. We collect blankets socks hats coats shoes get together things that are kind of necessities like hygiene packs for people. And you know I feel like that’s important for me to give back. It was something that I never would have done had our state a Jehovah’s Witness because they doubt you know they do not care about their community they don’t truly care about humanity. If your inner circle is here their babble great but even then you’re not going to have any type of outreach.

[02:12:06] If you’re if you’re working that minimum wage job because you never went to college or struggle to make ends meet because Jehovah’s Witnesses tell you that you don’t need to put your faith in anything of this world could you. Now the end is near for like 100 years now. And so you know you’re not going to go to them and say oh yeah can I go to the food pantry this month because we’re running a little short on fuel or is there any way that the organization can help us pay rent because otherwise we’re going to get evicted with our kids. You know those kind of things. So my my guess at this point is to open and run a halfway house for four families that are struggling with addiction and who are trying to rebuild their life to give them a halfway point. So once they get clean and sober and so gives them a place where they can come with their kids and they can get back on their feet in making and have resources with help finding a job and learn how to budget and manage their money so that they can save and eventually move out on their own and live with their own life. Clean and sober. If I hadn’t had people tell me how to do those things and show me and help me I wouldn’t be here today. So I want to get back in that aspect. And also I am proud of my five year plan as my husband’s business grows is to open a rescue for animals. Probably more for dogs than anything however any animal farm.

[02:13:38] I’m not to make a rehabilitation center for animals you have either been tossed to the side or put in a kill shelter. Those are my two passions right. So helping the West fortunate I suppose because I was that less fortunate. And someone stopped to help me and I feel like it’s the least I can do to give back. And and candid I guess put my own good karma out there in the world for those who reached out to me and helped me in and I found a real passion in a real naks were really like helping people. And I’m really that I it. So I’m not beautiful. Yeah it helps me heal. It helped. It helped me heal a lot to her to get out of myself. Like I said get out of that victim’s stance and stand up and say I don’t have to be a victim anymore I can help other people. And I can and look at me I’m leading a better life. You know I’m not going to let that warming anyone’s. This is pretty cool too. To see that you know out of all of this you know all the trauma of all the drama all the everything you know that you’ve come out of it and you know as this strong woman who can live her own life you have your own family. You’re wanting that you are not only wanting to help others but you’re able to help others now and that you’ve taken your life back. I mean that’s that’s what’s leaving any of these cults.

[02:15:17] You know unfortunately there’s they’re shunning that comes along with it but it’s not just about the shunning there’s so much there’s so much more that that that we get on the outside and away from all that toxicity. And know now you have a chance to to make your life what you want it to. You know instead of looking forward to some promised paradise in the future that she’s delaying you know you get to have those things now and that’s awesome. I mean it’s like well here’s you know it’s yeah. You know since I’ve reached out like a whole family. People have been shown who they treat me like family. They treat me like better than any person in their religion everyday. And it’s so nice to have that network of support. And you know like I know we touched on this already but it’s not as scary to be Sharon when you find out that you can take your life back and maybe you can reach out and have that individuality. It’s not a state anymore. It is when you realize you don’t have to be alone to them to exist. In fact you’re not doing anything about existing in that position. When you come to the realization that you can have ontogeny and that you can kind of when you take your power that it’s not a scary anymore to be shown. It’s really not because there is a whole other life out there. People who are a hundred times more compassionate loving and caring them than the people in your organization ever were turned out as a blessing in disguise as being shown in mine. I agree I agree. There’s a few things in life are all good or all bad. You know being shunned by your family missing those people that is bad and that does hurt.

[02:17:19] But there’s I wouldn’t trade the benefits on the other side for that ever. So yeah exactly. I totally agree. As always I want to thank Kacey for being brave enough to speak her truth. It’s not easy to do so especially when that truth could cause problems for yourself. But in the end that’s what Jehovah’s Witnesses taught us to do right. Don’t be mad because we’re taking a stand for what we see is true. You taught us to do that. So good for Kacey for doing so if you’d like to leave a note of encouragement for Kacey. You can go to shunnedpodcast.com and you’ll see her episode at the top of the episodes page. Please do so for all the brave people that face their fears and tell their stories. We were all taught that if we were to go away we should at least do so quietly by the cult. So you know it is kind of reminiscent of what any abuser would tell their victims. You know you can go away but shut up. Well one way to speak up is to show support for the guests here. Another way you can show support is to leave us a good review on iTunes. It helps give legitimacy to the show and helps us rise up in the rankings so that other people can find us to of course. This show does cost money to produce and you’ll notice that the transcriptions are out now for each new episode due to the mazing donors that give as little as a dollar a month to the show through Patreon.

[02:18:50] Our numbers of listeners continue to grow and having those transcripts helps us to get traffic to the site and then traffic in turn turns to new listeners. So if you’d like to help financially you can do so at patreon.com/shunned. In fact this month I have two new patrons to thank. I’d like to give a thank to someone called Covert Fade and also to Zachary and their families for signing up again. Every dollar helps. Putting the money back into the podcast and the more that there is the more I can do speaking of Covert fade. Some of you may know him on Twitter. That’s where I found him as well. He’s been kind to the shunned podcast himself and he started his own podcast calledJ.W. forward cast again that’s JW forwardcast. One word you might want to check that out. Pretty cool. Speaking of Twitter some of you that follow this podcast actually follow it on Twitter and Instagram well for all this time. My wife Jenny has been making most of the initial post and then I’ve joined in at times when needed or private messages with friends and things like that. Well now she is taking over all that. So if you go on to Instagram or Twitter that’s my wife Jenny and I’m really happy to have you know somebody that supports me in all this. It means a lot. And you can support her as well by stopping by and saying Hatsu you on those platforms. You can find us on Twitter and Instagram as shunnedpodcast one word.

[02:20:33] You can also find my new VIDcasts on YouTube under the same name shunnedpodcast. Again one word just put out two new episodes of that in July 1 about comparison and one about how the cult stole our problems. In fact that the latter one had an article in it from the great joho. So shout out to Joho who is an online friend of mine and who wrote that article. So subscribe there and you’ll get new videos as I produce them. If you want to hear my personal story you can find it by listening to the podcast called This JW Life. Also found thisjwlife.com if you want links to anything mentioned here you can find all of that on the show notes you can find the show notes either by going to shunnedpodcast.com and going to the post for each episode or you can probably just on whatever podcast your app you’re using. You can just look at the description and that should have the notes. You probably noticed that we have a new theme song. Day one of our Instagram friends gave us a song to use called no hell yet so no hell yet is the song and her name on soundcloud is fair voyeur. She has other songs as well that you can listen to so I’ll be sure to link it the show notes. Is this the song that she gave us. And you can listen to more of her music there as well. So thank you so much to her for sharing that all right.

[02:22:01] So this is where I usually tell you something about the next episode instead I’m going to tell you that you’re about to get a lot of new episodes. For the next couple months I’m going to be doing some extras. I have an episode coming out in mid August at some point from a former witness that has a book coming out and I have a regular episode coming out then afterword at the beginning of September as per usual with another former witness. I then have a special interview that I’m doing with someone that was formerly of the Amish faith that will come out in mid September ahead of a big Amish conference. And right after that at the beginning of October we’ll have another regularly scheduled episode coming out by another ex witness so that a one a month you’re about to get five podcast episodes in short order for some special circumstances and then we’re going to get back into the regular swing of things. So watch out for the new episodes. If you’re not subscribed go ahead and do so so that you get them automatically. And as we end them all go into the world and love others do no harm and go be happy.